There are some muns there if you want. . . .
A Conversation on Queerness, Precariousness,Binationalism, and BDS
J B: here are some muffins there if you want them . . .U A: I want to start with the last film you were in,
Examined Life
,directed by Astra aylor. A number of preeminent philosophers werethere, each one explaining his own philosophy. You, instead of discuss-ing your philosophy like the others, chose to speak with Sunny, the sis-ter of the filmmaker. Why did you choose dialogue?J B: Well, Sunny was my student, and I had come to knowher fairly well. She moves in a wheelchair. She has had a series of dis-abilities from birth. She’s a brilliant artist. She took a course of mineon Nietzsche. So I had an independent relationship to her. Astra said to me that she wanted to make a film in which philoso-phers were in motion, walking, moving in some way. She asked me,“would you walk and talk?” and I thought, “surely I can walk and talk.”It’s a fine philosophical tradition, the peripatetic tradition, which datesback to Socrates. I love walking and talking. It is excellent to be in theworld, to be of the world, to be interrupted by the sounds of the world.But the Socratic peripatesis requires a dialogue. And it also struck meas very odd that I was being asked to walk when Sunny was there, and Iwondered: what is it for Sunny to take a walk? Why do we assume that
November 27, 2009.
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Tere are some muns there if you want . . .
205
everybody can take a walk? Or why do we assume that a walk requirestwo feet or being able to stand upwards or being able to balance onwhatever feet one has? So I wanted to call into question the idea of tak-ing a walk. When I asked Sunny, “do you take walks?” I wasn’t sure if that would be the term she would use for going out for a stroll in herwheelchair. She said, “yes, I take walks everyday” and I replied, “perfect!Let’s start with that.” You can take a walk in a variety of ways: on wheels,through film, in your dreams. It doesn’t necessarily mean that one hasthe mobility and balance that we associate with physical walking. Iwanted to let “taking a walk” become a metaphor, or at least a transpos-able term that could describe any number of ways of being in motion.U A: hat walk stayed with me for days, after the movie, afterI left the theater and went home. You spoke of this kid, the one whoalways had a queer walk, and just because of that walk he was murderedby his friend. How movement can be everything. here was somethingamazing and yet simple in that. Some say that your writing is compli-cated, but there is a simplicity that is very deep at the same time.I want to go back a bit. In Israel, people know you well. Your namewas even in the popular film
Ha-Buah
(
The Bubble
). (
Laughs.
)J B: (
Laughs.
) Although I disagreed with the use of my name in that context. I mean, it was very funny to say, “don’t JudithButler me,” but “to Judith Butler someone” meant to say somethingvery negative about men and to identify with a form of feminism thatwas against men. And I’ve never been identified with that form of femi-nism. hat’s not my mode. I’m not known for that. So it seems like itwas confusing me with a radical feminist view that one would associatewith Catharine MacKinnon or Andrea Dworkin, a completely differentfeminist modality. I’m not always calling into question who’s a man andwho’s not, and am I a man? Maybe I’m a man. (
Laughs.
) Call me a man.I am much more open about categories of gender, and my feminism hasbeen about women’s safety from violence, increased literacy, decreasedpoverty, and more equality. I was never against the category of men.U A: A beautiful Israeli poem asks, “How does one become Avot Yeshurun?” Avot Yeshurun was a poet who caused turmoil in Israelipoetry. I want to ask, how does one become Judith Butler—especially with the issue of
Gender Trouble,
the book that so troubled the dis-course on gender?J B: You know, I’m not sure that I know how to give anaccount of it, and I think it troubles gender differently depending on
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206
LANGUAGE
how it is received and translated. For instance, one of the first recep-tions [of the book] was in Germany, and there it seemed very clear thatyoung people wanted a politics that emphasized agency or somethingaffirmative that they could create or produce. he idea of performa-tivity—which involved bringing categories into being or bringing newsocial realities about—was very exciting, especially for younger peoplewho were tired with old models of oppression—indeed, the very modelmen oppress women or straights oppress gays. If you’re straight, you’rein an oppressive position; if you’re gay, you’re in a subjugated position.It seemed that if you were subjugated there were also forms of agency that were available to you, and you were not just a victim, or you werenot only oppressed, but oppression could become the condition of youragency. Certain kinds of unexpected results can emerge from the situ-ation of oppression if you have the resources and if you have collectivesupport. It’s not an automatic response; it’s not a necessary response.But it’s possible. So I was trying to hold out the possibility of agency. Ithink I also probably spoke to something that was already happening inthe movement. In a way, theory only registers what is already happen-ing in a social movement. I was part of a social movement. I put intotheoretical language what was already being impressed upon me fromelsewhere. So I didn’t bring it into being single-handedly. I received itfrom several cultural resources and put it into another language.here it seemed to me that both misogynists and feminists had very strong ideas about what it is to be a woman. he misogynists wantedwomen to be a certain way, but the feminists also had very strong ideasabout what it was to be caring, what it was to have a woman’s relationto nature, what it was to have sexual desire that was necessarily het-erosexual, or what femininity was as a psychic or cultural reality. herewere a lot of people who thought, No! My politics, my life, even my feminism is about calling into question whether those ideas of femi-ninity are necessary, and if I don’t fall into these categories, if I don’tfall neatly into received ideas of masculinity or of femininity, whatsocial place is there for me? Do I become a dead thing? A no-thing? AmI un-namable? Am I monstrous? Or am I indeed part of a new move-ment that is trying to articulate gender and sexual complexity, tryingto find a new language for gender and sexual complexity that doesn’tfit any longer into the binary categories of gender?U A: he text of
Gender Trouble
is not easy, trying to understandthe relation of language and body and gender, which may even come
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A Conversation Between Judith Butler and Udi Aloni
Judith Butler and Udi Aloni discuss queerness, precariousness, binationalism, and BDS in a chapter from Udi Aloni's book, What Does a Jew Want? You can see more about the book here: http://cup.columbia.edu/book/978-0-231-15758-2/what-does-a-jew-want
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