INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO MAY 11, 2013 RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Jay Keller Click here for

video Click here for audio [REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: Now heres something thats an ongoing source of irritation in our culture, our media and our politics: wherever you turn, youre bound to find the language of values and of morality bound firmly to conservative positions and those who espouse them. Hardly ever is there a recognition of the fact that countless proponents of progressivism, of inclusion and of diversity hold beliefs that are firmly founded on their faith, their values, their morals. This comes up a lot on this show, whether in conversations with and about Atheists and Humanists, or in addressing the various battlefields of the culture wars. But it stood out in particular as the Family Research Council beamed an hour-long video presentation to participating churches and other organizations this past Sunday night. The purpose was to marshal organized obstruction of the Boy Scouts of America moving toward inclusion of Gay scouts and scoutmasters. And one of the participating voices was that of Texas Governor Rick Perry. Listen to just a little bit of what he had to say: [RICK PERRY CLIP]: "Their values and principles have worked for a century now. And for pop culture to come in and try to tear that up because this happens to be the, you know, the flavor of the month, so to speak, and to tear apart one of the great organizations (...) That is just not appropriate." Ah, did you notice that? Did you hear how he set up the false dichotomy between the Boy Scouts purported, God-given timeless values and the dismissive phrase pop culture in reference to the struggle for LGBT equality? Wow. This was a particularly egregious example of this kind of rhetoric. But if you keep your eyes open, youll see its happening every day all around us. And it's a profoundly unfair, and damaging, characterization of the motives behind many kinds of progressive activism. Hmm, lets see, one sides got God on their side, and the other is subject to the whims of popular culture. Who are you going to stand with, they ask. On this weeks show, were going to again challenge this unbalanced view. Ill be talking to Jay Keller, the dad of a former boy scout whose troop was sponsored, as so many are, by a church But a church that over 10 years ago first challenged the Boy Scouts of America's exclusionary policies - and did it in writing. Other churches have done the same thing but you never hear that side

of the story. This time, you will! Its ironic that todays controversy over gay scouts and scoutmasters is often couched in terms of religion what about churches that sponsor scout troops but condemn homosexuality, opponents of inclusivity will cry. Well, when Robert Baden-Powell founded the scouts in 1920, it was actually in response to an existing group, the Christians-only Boys Brigade. Today, the World Organization of the Scout Movement has a membership of 155 National Scout Organizations with more than 31 million individual members. While the debate rages on in the United States, other national WOSM members including Scouts Canada, Scouts Australia, and most European associations have no restrictions on gay scouts and leaders. Many on the self-identified Christian right have responded ferociously to the Boy Scouts of America considering a change to the long-standing exclusionary policy regarding sexual minorities, imagining a sacred institution under attack by liberal savages bent on destroying all thats good and right about America. Thats the fashion, right? The culture war flavor-of-the-month. Those godless Gays. They want to destroy marriage, and they want to destroy this nations youth! You know that pitch. Now, I recognize that this is an uphill battle, but I want to at least chip away at that cartoonish image when I can. And here to help me do that when it comes to scouting is the straight dad of a straight former boy scout, whose story dates to well before the Right discovered this fundraising um, I guess I meant to say fundamental cause to fight for. My guest is Jay Keller, who also happens to be the Director of Outreach and Operations at Interfaith Alliance, and thus one of my good friends. But he has something to share with us that's important. Jay, I know youre a big fan of the show Welcome to State of Belief Radio! [JAY KELLER, GUEST]: Thank you, Welton, it's a great pleasure. [WG]: Now, most of us know how ridiculous it is to portray the boy scouts' controversy in terms of some sudden fad or fashion, but I'm intrigued by the history of your own family's involvement in scouting, and how far back addressing the issue of gay members and leaders goes, just in your own experience - I'm sure it goes a lot farther back still - but I'd like for you to talk about the situation as you experienced it, and maybe what some of your feelings were when all of this controversy began. [JK]: Certainly, certainly. Well, just a little bit of my bona fides: my father was a boy scout troop leader; my mother was a girl scout troop leader; I was in boy scouts in middle school; and then my oldest son was in boy scouts in middle school, also, from 1995 to 1997 at Troop 33 in Takoma Park, MD. And it is a

troop thatm when we were involved as parents, we had discussions among parents about this boy scout ruling that we heard about where gay troop leaders would be discriminated against and would not be allowed to join. And as a group, we always said, "Well, that's a silly idea, and it's not one that we would ever abide by." So that was back in '97; in 2000, the troop actually took a formal stance against discrimination on this basis, and sent a letter to the local National Capital Area Boy Scouts Association, saying that we would not abide by this; that if it ever came up, we would ignore this rule, which we considered to be contradictory to the boy scout law. [WG]: What did you hear back, at that point, if anything? [JK]: We got no response back from the scouts on that. I think they kind of chose to ignore it. And recently, 2012, the Presbyterian church in Takoma Park which hosts the boy scout troop reiterated this policy from 2000 - reiterated the letter that they had sent, and sent that letter to the national boy scout headquarters in Irving, Texas. Still didn't hear anything back from the boy scouts on that, either. [WG]: My goodness. Now, I want to kind of underscore, rhetorically, the central truth you've just conveyed: a sponsoring Presbyterian congregation basically told the Boy Scouts of America, in writing, that look: Troop 33 hasn't discriminated in its 80 years of existence, and is not about to start now, is that it? [JK]: That's right. [WG]: How have conversations - if they've existed at all - how have conversations gone on within your own troop about this? Or has it even been a point of discussion? [JK]: I think it's been kind of a passing point of discussion. It's very interesting, the mayor of Takoma Park, who has hosted and kind of judged, I think, five or six of the pinewood derbies - which is the annual cub scout model car races that they have all across the country, and he's been the judge for five or six years and is the mayor of Takoma Park, and happens to be gay, who actually just last weekend married his partner on their 35th anniversary in Takoma Park, so it's never been an issue, and I think for the scouts, and all the scouts that I've ever known about or worked with, it's always been about treating people with respect, regardless of differing opinions on things, and that's the way we went at it. So the idea of discriminating against people because they were gay was not something that anyone ever thought they would do. [WG]: You know - and I'm guessing, Jay, that even as you say that, some people, if they hear it, will be saying, "Well, look, they're surrounded by gays; they're in a culture of gays; and so, sure, they're not going to see this, but we can see from

the outside what they can't see from the inside." I mean, this is a pure speculative question, but what are they scared of? [JK]: Well, that's a great question, Welton. I don't know. It's interesting that the boy scout policy - the stated policy - against allowing openly homosexual individuals is a relatively recent one. I looked at this, and I could only find something going back as early as 1980. So when you hear people talk about this being a new fad, I think the discrimination is actually a relatively new fad! And I think it's interesting that people are talking about this in terms of protecting religious liberty - well, there doesn't seem to be any interest in protecting the religious liberty of Presbyterians, who don't discriminate, and see homosexuality and gays in their community as valuable parts of their community. [WG]: Yeah. I want the audience of State of Belief listeners to know that Jay is the parent of a scout. He's not a leader in scouting; he's not an activist in scouting; and it sounds to me like this was a pretty non-controversial stand, for at least this particular troop. Has there been any protest that you've heard in your troop, Jay? [JK]: None whatsoever. I mean, this was passed - this position was passed overwhelmingly at the Presbyterian church, which was the sponsor, and I don't think there was any voice of opposition at all at the church about saying, "Listen, we're not gonna discriminate, and sexual orientation is not gonna be something we look at in scout leaders." [WG]: Do you know of any other troops in which there have been these kinds of acts of rebellion, or just the affirmation that "we're not going to discriminate"? [JK]: I don't personally know of any. I've seen some points discussed on the Internet and on TV, but I don't know, personally, of any other troops that have done this. I think it's much more widespread that people just ignore this relatively recent act of discrimination by the Boy Scouts of America. And things have been kind of let go in the boy scouts for years, like, one of the scout rules is: "A Scout is reverent toward God." Well, if you talk to most Buddhists, they would say, "Well, we don't really believe in a god," but the Boy Scouts have accepted Buddhists since the 1920's! So there's been lots of flexibility within Boy Scouts of America. [WG]: There was a front-page New York Times story this week about a man and his son confronting the same situation today, but it's fascinating to me to be able to have you reflect on this over a decade ago. The theme I see connecting the two stories is that of fundamental values. We're focusing this week's show on how there's never representation in media coverage of this debate of the values and morals component of parents like yourself. And I'd like for you to talk about that. What did you want your son to learn in the Boy Scouts?

[JK]: Well, I think there's always the traditional stuff of learning to appreciate the outdoors, and learning to get out and see nature at its finest, and also learning how to work together with people of different traditions and different backgrounds, and so I think that there's certainly that; I think Boy Scouts for me, and I think for my son, was a way to learn some skills and a way to learn about respect for others in a non-judgmental way. So I think there are so many positive things about Boy Scouts, and I think having a policy of discrimination is not a positive policy and is not a positive model for the kids to learn about. So I think as a parent, we - the parents that were in the boy scout troop when I was in the Boy Scouts with my son - we thought this was a wonderful way for the kids to get together, for the parents to get together, and to really build a sense of community. And I think a sense of community is never well-built on acts of discrimination. [WG]: I can't imagine that you ever thought this, but if you did, correct me - you didn't look to the Boy Scouts as an organization to train your son in faith, did you? [JK]: No, not at all. It was much more, I think, as I said, to help us build that sense of community, and I don't know of many communities that are represented by just one group - there's always great diversity, whether it's race, or religion, or whatever, and I think that's something that I have valued in Boy Scouts over the years, and something that was taught to me by my parents. [WG]: Yeah. You know, it's almost like this is evidence of two Americas, at least, and two basic presumptions: in your experience, your presumption is Boy Scouts would never discriminate. That's a value that is compatible with all of the other scout values. Then in other situations, people's presumption was: the Boy Scouts will always be a Christian-based organization, and it will only want in it good Christian young men who are interested in the outdoors and doing hiking and all of that, but it will never be a place of real diversity. Two Americas, isn't it? [JK]: It really is two Americas, and I think it's an America - the one of it being a Christian-only organization - is one that, to me, is more of like a 1950's model that actually probably never existed. The Boy Scouts that I was in had Jewish members, had a variety of faiths, and as I said, the Boy Scouts of America accepted groups like Buddhists since the 1920's. So even historically, the Boy Scouts have never been about purely Christian boy scout troops. [WG]: Yeah. Well, one thing about you, Jay, that I appreciate and I bring to mind here because I think it is a key to those who are participating in Scouts and other civic organizations - you're doing this because of an interest in your son, and in the value and the ideas that other young men like him hold. This is volunteer time. I know from our own experience together - you don't have a lot of volunteer time. What keeps you going with this?

[JK]: Well, I think it's, you know, any time you get community involvement, I think, even in those times when you think, "I just don't have another hour to give," and you see other parents stepping up and doing things, and that's inspiring to me. And I've got a community meeting tonight, and I've got two community meetings tomorrow night that are unrelated to Boy Scouts, but it's all about building a sense of community and bringing people together over very positive actions. And I think that sense of community is something that we all want to see, and you see the benefits of building community, and I think an organization like Boy Scouts has a tremendous role in doing that - in building community - and I'm hoping that they may change some of their policies that help build community and not help separate one group from another simply because of their sexual orientation. It's a destructive way to approach things, and doesn't help with that overall concept of building a better community. [WG]: Jay Keller is the Director of Outreach and Operations at Interfaith Alliance. He oversees a number of our program activities; he has a special bent in his heart, a prejudice toward nurturing young people. Jay, you're a real treasure, and I'm happy that you had a real-life story to add some perspective to this ridiculously heated debate that's going on right now around scouting in this country. I hope that Tony Perkins heard a little bit of what you said, and understood the concept of an open, inclusive community. Thanks for being with us here today on State of Belief Radio! [JK]: Thank you very much, Welton. State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America the most religiously diverse country in the world while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty. Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong wrong for America and bad for religion. Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes diverse religious voices in a

religiously pluralistic world. Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana. In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America, while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News, and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets. While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists. Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from 1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the Christian Life Commission from 1973-77. Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.