Nia Kings Interview with Fabian Romero Intro (Fabian Romero): I was a kid that drew comics and

I still have one of them, which is in really bad shape, but its of a grape man. Cause those were the words that I knew fruit because my family grew up we came here as migrant workers, so those were the first words that I learned: fruit names. It was all fruit characters and Grape Man was the hero. He was a giant grape. And the fruit blender was the bad guy. I think there was some food sacrificed to make the fruit grinder stop working. I dont remember the plot, but it was very, very meaningful for me. NK: Yeah, it sounds like some pretty deep stuff to be dealing with at 9 years old. FR: I was very deep early on. [musical interlude] NK: My name is Nia King. Welcome to We Want the Airwaves. This week I was privileged with the opportunity to speak to Fabian Romero, a poet from Seattle that was in town for the National Queer Arts Festival, specifically a show called Free, which was put together by Mangos with Chili. Once again, Id like to thank everyone who donated to my indiegogo campaign to help keep the podcast going. If youre listening to this after June 30th, theres still a donate button if you go to niapod.tumblr.com. If you want to give there, every little bit helps. Thank you so much! Without further ado, here is Fabian. [musical interlude] FR: I am choosing to live a very unsteady life as an artist, which feels hard for my mom, or thats the assumption that my mom thinks that Im choosing this life. NK: Do you feel differently? FR: I feel like I dont have a choice. Ive worked at a co-op, Ive worked at non-profits, Ive worked retail and labor work. Ive been working since I was pretty young. I started working with my mom when I was nine, and so I feel like having that experience, I dont think that my spirit can survive if I do anything other than create, because Its just helped me so much to survive this world and all the hardships. So I dont feel like I have a choice. I feel like if I dont (create), I wont be myself. I will lose myself and I really believe that. I think my moms starting to get it too. NK: It sounds like now, youre sort of moving back into a more visual medium not that youre necessarily giving up poetry. But you said that youre interested in learning film as well? Is this your next big project?

FR: Yeah. My hope is that Ill learn to make films so that I can document some of my familys stories, because a lot of them are oral and I cant do my family justice. The way that they speak Their specific dialect is hard to transcribe, because its very, very specific to this small pueblo in Mexico of 3,000 people, which is where Im from. And also because I feel that theyre so many hurtful representations of everything in the world out there, and I just would love to at least have a chance to do something that isnt so hurtful, mainly about masculinity. Because everywhere that I see it, its represented in such a harmful way. Even in queer culture. In queer shows masculine people are yelling at femmes and stuff. That stuff really gets to me. I think that we can do a lot better. And I still really see the value and support that these artists are making for making these films and shows, and I still think we can do better, and I want to try. And maybe I wont make a show. Maybe Ill just make a documentary or something. I have no idea where its going to lead me. But I think thats why its exciting. NK: So it sounds like you want to do PR for masculinity, to fix its reputation? FR: [laughing] I dont know about fixing its reputation, because I think that what I would love to do is give alternative representations other than the typical hyper-masculine, nonemoting, dominating, and really power hungry type of masculinity out there. I would love to have other representations. And maybe there would be a character in there, just because people can relate to that. And these are all ideas in my head, but honestly, I think masculinity has a bad rep because the way its taught is really harmful. And I would love to have art and writing and all kinds of creative responses to that to challenge and to even change it. My hope is that my art will change some part of the world, or all of the world, or something. NK: By sort of creating these alternative models of masculinity that are not based in violence FR: Yes! The men in my family my father is not the best example of a sensitive guy. My father really internalized a lot of the masculine stuff. But a lot of the men in my family dont fit that masculine model and I feel that theyre not even given a chance to be a character in a novela or a movie or something. And the times when they are, they are made a joke. Thats just a side of it too, because I do know that its still harmful for femmes and women out there too. And I would love to have something that challenges these norms. At the core of my writing and creativity is this desire to challenge peoples ideas. I come offering what knowledge I have and my experiences to help people see things even a little differently. NK: Youve managed to build quite a career for yourself as a writer, even while you were still in school. How have you done that? FR: I took advice from a poet. I met this poet who will remain nameless. But I met this poet while he was on tour and I was totally blown away. I was like, I want to do what youre doing. And I straight up told him that. At the time I just went to support his show. Afterwards we talked. And we talked for like six months, where he pretty much

mentored me a little bit. The tips that he offered me were to use this chance that I have in college to go to conferences, and to develop workshops, to get my name out there, and so thats what I started doing. I started putting my name out there, going to different conferences. I was definitely way too shy to submit writing anywhere, so I just started my blog. Just through sharing my blog with friends, and having people get excited from seeing me at different shows and conferences, I started developing a pretty cool I dont know what to call it. I guess its a fan base? NK: Following? FR: Yeah, following. I want to be like friend base, but whatever. People started seeking me out and wanting to know about when I was going to write more and things like that. It was really cool, so I just started going with it. I am a very honest person and I write about the struggles that I go through and everything Ive gone through. And something that happened was that I got really sick last year. I had to have surgery. I got my gall bladder out, which doesnt seem like its a big deal because a lot of people get their gall bladder out. But I didnt realize how sick I had become. By the time that it happened, it was a total emergency surgery, and afterward it became really hard for me to eat and I lost a lot of weight. And I really think that being well known comes with having privilege and the time to put your work out there. I feel that me being thin also had something to do with people also getting interested in me, because most people who are pretty well known have some sort of cute privilege. They fit this idea of what it means to be successful. I didnt get as much interest [in my work] when I was heavier. And I identified as fat. For a lot of my life Ive been fat, so I didnt as much interest as lately. I was really reluctant to take on a role, or to accept that Im well known, because I really felt hurt that people were more interested in me because Im thin, but I really think now that that has a lot to do with it. NK: Also, before we were recording we had a little bit of a longer talk about social capital, and you were talking a little bit about thin privilege like you did just now, but one of the things I thought was really interesting was that when someone hears that you are queer and indigenous, some people might think ,you are marginalized in all of these ways and not think of you as a person who has a lot of social capital. But thats not how you see it. FR: Ive definitely built the social capital. And you know whats interesting? I think this is true about marginalized people. One of the ways we are marginalized and othered is by either fitting this idea that we are (marginalized), or our story gets exploited. And its the sad stuff. People really like hearing about how sad it is to be marginalized. In the beginning of my writing I definitely went there, because its weaved into my story. I have survived a lot. And I think that that adds to social capital in a way. To be marginalized in a queer community, because people are like, You have a really sad story. Its kind of messed up. Its really messed up. And I feel that its still a part of queer community to scare some people out of wanting to be a part of it. I have a lot of friends in my life and people that Ive loved dearly, that just dont engage in a lot of queer community because they feel that they cant move away from having people just be interested in their hard

life. And yeah, Ive had a really hard life, but thats not what I focus on all of the time. Most of my writing is very much focused on survival, and my resiliency, and hope a lot of hope. So yeah, Ive built social capital from just getting my name out there, and I think that I also have thin privilege and light skin privilege, which really boost that idea of success which really and so people are more interested in being around me. Im also masculine. Im saying these things not because my life is so hard. Its more like the reality of it. People are more comfortable with me because I am these ideas of success that masculine people are leaders, and thin people get their face plastered everywhere, and light skinned people are seen and get more visibility than darker folks. That adds a lot to it. Its really been something that I try to talk about. Because these are my privileges, these are the things Im going to write about. A lot of the things on my blog are focused on addressing those: masculine privilege, fatphobia, and anti-Black racism, and also light skin privilege. NK: I know weve been talking about social capital for a couple of minutes now, but would you mind giving a quick definition for folks who might not be familiar with the term? FR: I think for me, social capital is having this power or being really well-known so that people look up to you. Maybe not just look up to you, but you know, like youre wellknown and youre given this power in the community to like shift conversations or not shift conversations. Its like, this person is going to that event? I want to go! Its like youre given this leverage that people who dont have social capital dont have. Ive definitely felt that. I think thats why as an introvert its really stressful. Im like, I dont want to go anywhere. I just want to stay in my house and watch TV. NK: Its funny, I almost think of social capital sometimes as popular people privilege. But its not just about being popular, its why youre popular. Why are people drawn to you? And then has to do with all those things like race and color and weight. I also wanted to ask you, because you write a lot about your privilege on your blog: Do you think theres a right or wrong way to talk about your own privilege in your work? Im going to try and explain where Im coming from with this question I feel that for me, I identify as a person of color, Im mixed race, Im very, very light skinned, and whitepassing. But I feel weird saying that like I cant say Im light-skinned without feeling like Im bragging, even when Im just trying to own the fact that I have that privilege. So Im curious about how you go about grappling your privilege in an ethical way, because listening to white people talk about white privilege is something I have so little interest in. So, I feel like why would anyone be interested in hearing me talk about mine? FR: Ive learned through trying different things in my life. Ive learned by watching, actually. You mentioned that its really boring to listen to white people talk about privilege, and from interrupting different forms of oppression, usually it came down to a race dynamic. And seeing how white people defended their privilege, which is pretty common, people learn to defend their privilege because were never really given the tools to really talk about power and privilege in our lives. Its been through that that Ive learned the things that I dont want to do, that I dont want to mimic, and the things that

are hurtful to me. And then trying to think about what are the tropes, what are the ideas that are the most used to put down whatever marginalized group it is that you have privilege over. For me, as a light-skinned person, dark-skinned folks and black folks are usually talked about in this really unintelligent way, and I have to make sure that Im not doing those things that are really hurtful at the time that Im talking about my privilege. For me, its really about getting comfortable with myself about it. I have to repeat to myself that I have privilege. At least I make it a priority to, because I notice that when I dont remind myself that I have privilege is when I make the most hurtful mistakes. I definitely try to stay connected enough with people who check me on this stuff. I have friends that are all of the marginalizations that Im not, and I care about them. And I love them, so I really think about what I can do to be there for them and thats usually where I come from. I want to be in solidarity with this person in my life. And that is a priority enough for me to go out there and keep on saying it until it feels right and I find the right way. Because I think that its different for us all. Like for me, I feel really secure in saying that I have a lot of thin privilege that is new to me and Im figuring it out. And that Ive had light-skinned privilege my entire life and its really benefited me, and Ive gained a lot of access to spaces where some of my darker friends have not, and Ive heard some awful things. Things like that where I have been able to think about tangible examples keep me anchored in my desire to work in solidarity with people that I have privilege over. In the workshop that I teach I tell people to talk about your privileges with the same passion as you do your oppressions, because the minute that you start to do that thats intersectionality. You know? We are intersectional people. We have many different layers inside of us, and when they interact with each other. Thats how we participate in the world, and I participate in the world with that same leverage that I get from my privileges as I do from my oppressions. They inform my decision-making. And they inform how I treat people. And they also inform how I defend my actions. And its when Im aware of my privileges that Im more willing to change things than when Im not. You know? Its really about just keep on reminding yourself that you have privilege and figure out a way that you can say it that feels right to you. Because for me, it feels gross when Im saying it to, like, earn points with somebody. But it feels right when Im saying it because I want to be in solidarity with people. And Ive had to figure that out. You know? NK: Do you think theres a difference between being in solidarity and being an ally? FR: Absolutely. I really wish that the word ally wasnt used as an identity. I think that when it is used as an identity, people get away with all kinds of shit. Its a lot like having cute privilege. When youre cute, people dont want to tell you that youre fucking up. And an ally, I think people take it on and are like If I call myself an ally that means that the time that I make something, people will focus on the intention not the impact, so then people take it on for that reason. At least in my experience and moments I have been hurt by allies thats what I felt. People were like perplexed, like Wait. But Im an ally. How could I have done that? And Im like Yeah, thats because it shouldnt be an

identity. To me an ally, allyship, is an act of solidarity. Once you act as an ally, you go back into the cycle of like indifference, like not noticing that there are differences in the world, to distancing and pushing away information. These are the skills that are taught by Leticia Nieto, a professor at St. Martins University in Lacy, and I also use them when I teach people about skill sets for working in solidarity with people. And then it goes into inclusion. Inclusion is like this conditional welcoming, like you welcome people in but you dont necessarily want them to talk about how they are oppressed, or how theyre not treated well in the group. You just want them to be there to make you look good. And then awareness, and then allyship. And the last two, awareness and allyship, take the most work. Because in the world that we live in, were like so rewarded for being completely unaware, and going through the day, and not necessarily noticing that there are any differences. I mean colorblindness falls into that inclusionary skillset, where people really believe its enough to just think that were all one people, and so differences dont matter. And thats actually really, really hurtful. And so awareness and allyship is going against everything thats so normalized and thats why its so difficult. NK: So what youre talking about when youre talking about these different skillsets is sort of a progression. Its not like these are different points randomly scattered about a cloud. Its like step one, step two, step three, step four, and allyship being the last step the sort of place that youve arrived at the end? FR: You know, I wouldnt necessarily call it [arriving] or tell people that, because in my understanding and the way that I teach the skill sets is that we fall on them in different places throughout the day, depending on where were at, and about what privilege comes up for us. On really great days, Im aware and ready to act as an ally for any marginalized group that I have privilege over, and Im prepared. And on some days, maybe Im just really fucking exhausted and Im just not in my zone, and so Im really indifferent or pushing away of information, and Im not in a place to receive information. Im not about it, so I might come off as hostile, but I really try to stay away from those [days]. And Ive learned how to, by working on staying aware all the time. Its not like a beginning and an end. Its like constant work. The way that I tell people about these skill sets, its like the more that you do the work to stay aware, the more you notice what skill set youre in so that you can push yourself along, or get support to push yourself along. Usually that means finding people who have the same privileges as you to really talk openly with them, and also to be accountable to somebody. If you have people to be accountable to, youre more likely to stick on that path. But its definitely like more of a spiral or something like that. NK: It sounds like one of the things I hear you saying is that allyship is an action, not an identity. FR: Yeah, definitely. NK: One of the things you said earlier we were talking about your shyness and you coming out of your shell, and you said that you started doing workshops and presenting at conferences but you were too shy to submit writing. I thought that was really interesting.

Because, for me, Id much rather sit at my desk, in front of my computer and click a button, rather than stand in front of people and give a workshop. FR: Oh, totally! You know, its really interesting. Ive actually been perplexed by my own personality for my entire life. [laughing] I find that in workshops I am giving like I can be myself, fully. And its when I cant be myself fully, like when I feel like, Oh, shit. This author is looking for this or this book is looking for a very specific thing, and so then I become really like, I dont know if I can really do that. I mostly shy away from any situation, be it social or like writing situations that I dont feel that I can write about something that is fully, truly, authentically myself. And so in the world I am often seen as shy, or quiet, or introverted. People sometimes think that Im like snobby or something. Sure, judgments like that happen, but thats mostly around spaces where I dont feel that I can be fully myself. But around close friends, or even one-on-one with somebody, its pretty easy. And with writing its like if I know that an editor is going to go through it, thats what shies me away. So I have to have a relationship. I have to be like, My writing is really important to me. Can we work on this together? Can we work on the editing? And if I dont feel like thats possible, then I tend to not submit things. NK: Do you have a lot of experience working with editors and sort of figure out who is going to be a good person to work with and who is not? FR: Yeah, in my experience I tend to mostly ask around. Im like, Im thinking about submitting a work to this zine. Do you know the people who run it? Or even if nobody knows who they are, usually I read their information. I look them up and see what information they have out there about themselves. And usually if they have any points about power and privilege, Im like, Okay. Then I might be able to discuss why its so important for me to a hierarchical editor kind of situation. I would rather work with somebody who is willing to revise things with me. And thats usually what I say: Im thinking about submitting my work to you, but I need to work on this level. I cant have an editor chop my shit and tell me that this is not right, or at least tell me why. And thats really how Ive found people to work with, because my writing is really important to me. And sometimes things are just not sometimes Im writing something that doesnt make any sense, or doesnt have a point, and then its helpful to have somebody tell me that. But I dont necessarily want the authenticity of my writing to be diluted, or my politics to be diluted, or anything like that. NK: Is that something that youve encountered? FR: Yeah, I definitely feel like Because, you know, I write a lot about like power and privilege arent really something that are talked about in mainstream situations or mainstream media and writings that get wide circulation outside of queer spaces. I feel that in queer spaces and academic spaces, those conversations do flourish. But outside of those spaces, I feel like - and even within those spaces Ive definitely felt and experienced people taking context out of my work completely out, and using something that fits their agenda. And its happened, like somebodys taken some writing off of my blog, which is this piece where I talk very much about I wrote this thing about people

in academia to not believe that they are stupid because they dont understand academia, because academia was never constructed for us. And that piece got completely, I feel like, washed down and made to fit this blog article about democracy and I dont even know. It just like I was surprised. I was like, I cant believe someone would take my writing and dilute it to that degree. NK: Did they actually change your words, or did they just put it somewhere where it didnt belong? FR: They put it at the end of this very long article to make a point. NK: And they didnt contact you beforehand or anything? FR: No. NK: How did you find out? FR: I noticed that my blog was getting a lot of hits, and in tumblr you can see the people who follow you. And I was interested, because I was like Why the heck would this person with this blog name? I dont remember now, but it was something really offensive. And I was like Why would this person follow me? And so I click on their link, and I looked at their information, and I was like This person has nothing in common with me. Part of their About me was like I dont hate gay people, I just hate gayness. And another part was, I am pro-life, and heres the reasons why, and I was just like, Why would this person follow me? I have no idea how the hell So I got curious and I started looking at my StatCounter. I dont stay very up to date on it, unless I have a troll or somebody thats like harassing me, so I went on there and I was like, Huh somebodys coming in from this other blog. And then I get a message on my facebook from somebody saying, Hey, just so you know, I found your stuff on this blog. You should go to it and read it. And thats when I read it. And this was a week after it had been up. Yeah, I had a very demoralizing kind of effect from it, like I felt really sad that my writing.... Because I see it happening, especially to women of color, where people are quoting them left and right: Belle Hooks, Audre Lorde, Alice Walker, like quoting them left and right to promote anti-gay agenda, to promote like you know, it happens to Martin Luther King [Jr]. White people will quote Martin Luther King [Jr.] to promote like this inequality and injustices. And Ive seen it in academic spaces, where people will quote Audre Lorde - and this is coming from homophobic people of color, who are using these queer women of colors writing - to support their homophobic idea. And I just felt that that was happening to me and it just hurt really bad. Ive seen it happening, and I actually blanked out my blog because it was happening again. Some people, that dont have my values around social justice, decided to call me really awful, awful names. I think they just picked random slurs and just threw them at me all at once. The slurs actually didnt get to me. I think what got to me was that these were people of color. Im there for my people. My people are people of color. And to not have that back felt really, really

painful. And so I decided I needed a break after having my stuff taken out of context so much. I just needed a break. My blog is going to be back up on June 12th, so really, really soon. And I feel that Ive gathered more skills and resiliency to deal with that stuff, if it happens again. I have a feeling it will continue to happen. NK: I guess in some weird way its a marker of success that people are trolling you. I mean its also hugely violating to have your words taken out of context, and used to back up an argument that is antithetical to what youre trying to say. But I dont know. The internet is weird. FR: The internet is weird. And you know, Ive seen it in so many contexts, even outside of the internet. I cant tell you how many times people quote Martin Luther King [Jr.] and Ghandi in such inappropriate ways, and in times that are so insensitive, and to promote really racist ideas. To people of color: You should respond to racism in a compassionate way like Martin Luther King [Jr.] and Ghandi. And then I want to be like, Actually, you need to read more Martin Luther King. You really do! And you should read more about Ghandi, because your idea will be like washed out. You wont have an argument. I kind of just roll my eyes, because its so frequent. NK: So you mentioned your blog is coming out on June 12th. Is there anything else that people should look forward to coming from you? You were saying youre writing a piece about anti-black racism within communities of color. FR: Yeah, within communities of color. Its a really big dynamic that I grew up with, mostly in that it wasnt talked about it, but it was really promoted in really strong ways. Where, its like we come to the U.S. to make it, and then black people were made the example of what its like not to make it. And I feel like often times thats how oppression works. Youre given a lot of examples that feed you this message, but you never talk about it, so you can never actually make sense of it. You just kind of act it out. And whats really sad about anti-black sentiment within people of color communities, and immigrant communities, is that rather than build up these bonds within each other it becomes really divisive. So I want to write about it, and also about my journey learning about the different mixes that make up my people. And one of the mixes is that a lot of people in Mexico are part black and nobody talks about that. Ive looked at photos of like black people from Oaxaca, and they look a lot like my family, except that were a lot lighter. I feel like if we could just talk about the history and how we came to be this way, I would love to have those conversations. And I think that I would have to research a lot, too. And I have some books that I want to look into so I can have a more thorough article, but I think that I just want to write a quick How to respond to be called anti-black, or being asked to look at anti-black sentiment and oppression as a person of color, because it is real. And its often times dismissed, and pushed aside. And people talk about some bullshit thing called Oppression Olympics, which I just think is just bullshit. I think that were not going to get anywhere if we stick to competing about who has it worse, because all oppressions happen differently - some of them drastically differently, some similarly, but theyre still different. I will never, ever know what its like to be black in the world. EVER. And thats just how it is. And I would love for people to start treating it

as, you know, as a benefit in the world. We are benefited for not being black. And how does that manifest in our communities? And what we can do when we are told that we are anti-black, and are acting out anti-black racism. I want to have even just a rough checklist of stuff like, Here are some things you should think about. And one of those things is that if anti-blackness was never taught in our homes, or never talked about, its probably because its the norm. Things that arent talked about are the norm. Basically, ways to get away from defending our actions and learning from that. But you know, getting called out is also another thing, and I dont believe in calling out being the only way to communicate to each other that were being problematic. Im also going to write about that, about it being a skill, it being a strategy that is helpful with people who know the language, and who have the same definitions of the language that you do. And also of people who like have the same academic experiences that you do, because learning about anti-oppression requires privilege. My mom does not know the language, but she understands the experience far more than somebody whos gone to college, and knows all about intersectionality and can name drop different authors. My mom will understand oppression in a way that they will never understand. And so I think that call out culture is not helpful, especially within communities of different privileges. NK: Do you think theres sort of a right or wrong way to call someone out, or is calling out a tactic we should use at all? FR: I think that its been helpful in some situations, but I would argue that if that is the only strategy that somebody has, they should develop other ones and prioritize working on other ones. Theres definitely some people who deal with oppression in a very passive way. And I would encourage those people to be like, What would it mean if you actually told somebody that theyre being racist? What would that mean for you? Because we all interact with oppressions in different ways, depending on our understanding of it and our education, and also our comfort level with being aggressive or passive. Some people who are really aggressive, Im like If youre already aggressive and youre calling people out, I would say step back and think about other ways, because youre probably intimidating and youre calling somebody out, so those situations are more likely to close somebody off from learning, than it is to have them get it. And you know, it also depends on the intent, because were trying to be like vengeful, I think that calling out works. But if were trying to get somebody to learn something, calling out doesnt always work. I dont want to say compassion as in excuse behavior, but I think that compassion could help people navigate those spaces by being like, Wow that person is really conditioned to believe that thats okay. And its not up to me to talk to them. Its up to somebody else who has their same privilege, or it might be something that I can talk to them one-on-one. If its somebody that you have a relationship with, or if its somebody that you love, or if its somebody that youve experienced to be responsive to those situations. Ive also been called out in ways where and usually its done by people who have a lot more privilege than me, so its done in a really condescending and power imbalanced

way where people are talking down to me. And that doesnt want to make me talk to them about it. In fact, it makes me want to shut off and figure out why it is that I feel so uncomfortable. My argument is that it should be a strategy that is used depending on a situation, and it not be the strategy that people go to. Thats what I would want people to move towards, because some people do get it, you know. If they are called out by certain people they can learn, but thats not always the case.