Penny Reed Lizzy you say the files say Madeleine is dead but that's not what they

say. They say that is more likely but don't clearly state it as a fact. Sunday at 12:36am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Nothing is a 'fact' Penny bu it was claimed in the intercalary report By Tavares de Almeida... and the dogs alerted to Cadaver odour and BLOOD which matched Madeleines DNA 15:19 markers...(only 10:10 required in Britain) ..There is 1BILLION to1 match...

Penny Reed But that report was half way through the case when only half the evidence had been scrutinised. The Final report is perfectly clear that there is only a likelihood that she is dead. By using a report from only half way through the case and ignoring the later report you look to be picking and choosing. Is it not normal to rely on the latest report?

Lizzy Hideho Taylor It was EASY for them to deny neglect...but they COULDN'T! Madeleine could not have disappeared if they did! Sunday at 12:50am 3

Penny Reed Didn't Tony Bennett get told off by the Judge for relying on the interim report and ignoring the report which came later and which did not say Madeleine was definitely dead. Why rely on the first report and ignore the later one when all the evidence like the rogatories were available? Sunday at 12:53am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor ony was sentenced to three months suspended sentence because initially the McCanns wanted him to stop talking about the case details and he did not have the money to fight them...he was followed to an 'Aussie' forum where he wrote about the dogs findings...therefore making it contempt of court...he was NOT claimed to have been telling things that were not true. Sunday at 12:56am 5

Penny Reed It worries me that you might be getting yourself into the same legal problem as Tony Bennett, Lizzy. he was told he could not rely on the interim report but had to consider the later report. Is there any reason you are ignoring the later report? Sunday at 12:56am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor The later report does NOT claim they were innocent..

Lizzy Hideho Taylor If anyone has studied the files and done any research on the timelines they would not fail to recognise how the McCanns have managed to pull the wool over everyone's eyes.. Sunday at 1:01am 4

Penny Reed Sorry, Lizzy. I never said anyone was innocent. I said they final report says there is only a likelihood that Madeleine is dead. Nor did I say that Bennett was lying. Only that he was chastised for using the interim report and ignoring later reports in the files. I can't see any reason why people do that. The later report was prepared when all the evidence had been looked at. Sunday at 1:02am

Penny Reed I also think that news report (presumably a translation) is rather silly where it says they weren't declared innocent. Nobody can be declared innocent if they are not charged and the AG said there was no evidence to charge them.

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So...does that mean that you believe Madeleine disappeared because she was neglected or that the parents are POSSIBLY complicit in her disappearance? Sunday at 1:04am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor This thread is about WHY Madeleine disappeared and that it was NOT because she was neglected Sunday at 1:05am 1

Penny Reed Lizzy, you ask why claim neglect? When did the McCanns claim neglect? Surely it is just the people on the internet who claim neglect. The AG said there was no crime of abandonment (the PT version of neglect) And why would they leave themselves open to such a claim when setting the abduction overnight would have relieved them of such a charge anyway? Sunday at 1:06am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor They COULD have been declared innocent but they were not...WHY? Sunday at 1:06am 1

Penny Reed Nobody gets declared innocent if there was never any evidence against them. Please cite a single example of somebody in that position being declared innocent anywhere in any jurisdiction of any crime. I think its very silly to demand that somebody should have declared the McCanns innocent when that never happens to people who are not even charged. Sunday at 1:08am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So, Penny, do you feel that the parents were complicit in hiding her body and faking an abduction that night? Sunday at 1:08am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor that is a FAR more serious thing than 'possible neglect' Sunday at 1:09am 2

Penny Reed I don't know if they were or not. I can't fathom out why they would be stupid enough to play this public scene when the much easier scenario of abduction during the night would have meant not even having to face the neglect issue. And I can't work out how they have managed to persuade so many people to collude with them over something which could destroy them all. Sunday at 1:10am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Maybe not Penny...but the point is that they DID fake the abduction at that time... Sunday at 1:11am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor That is of course if we choose to believe the police files and the dogs... Sunday at 1:12am 1

Penny Reed What the AG actually said about the McCanns and Murat was that "there are no indications of the practise of any crime". That is pretty close to a declaration of innocence. If there are no indications at all of such then how could they be guilty? Sunday at 1:12am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So Penny...are you saying that Madeleine was abducted? Sunday at 1:13am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor this thread is ABOUT neglect not being an issue even if it existed... Sunday at 1:13am 2

Penny Reed I am not yet convinced they did fake that abduction as you claim because I simply cannot understand how they persuaded so many to collude with them. And I have seen Scotland Yard and the AG of Portugal say there is no indication of any crime by them. Are you saying you know better than those people or that they are all lying? Sunday at 1:14am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor its not about how madeleine died...its about her disappearance...it was NOT because of neglect... Sunday at 1:14am 2

Penny Reed But why leave themselves open to any possible charge of neglect at all? Why not just fake an abduction when they would be asleep? Much simpler? And how did they persuade all these others to join in their faked abduction? Sunday at 1:15am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor You are welcome to believe as you wish Penny.... it does not mean you are correct and it does not mean I am correct... but there is NOTHING that suggests an abduction...well..unless you can give some reasons... Sunday at 1:15am 1

Penny Reed Well there is a big difference between me an you then Lizzy. Though you claim not to know if you are right or not you are making claims that there was definitely a faked abduction, that Madeleine is definitely dead and that her parents are definitely complicit in that death or cover up. I genuinely can't say what happened for sure so I just look at the files and ask questions. Sunday at 1:17am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny, you appear to know FAR too much to be a new member with little knowledge on the files... It appears to me that you prefer to allow the abduction to be a possibility.. but I would like to know what you base that on Sunday at 1:18am 5

Penny Reed I base it on the fact that the Portuguese AG whose report I read right through this week and Scotland Yard both say that abduction is a possibility. Sunday at 1:19am

Penny Reed I find your post saying that I know "FAR too much" to be a new poster quite ridiculous. Who can ever know too much and who said I was new to the case? Sunday at 1:19am

Penny Reed Are you saying that the AG was lying when he said there was a possibility of abduction and that Scotland Yard are lying when they say that the McCanns are not involved and that abduction is a possible scenario? Sunday at 1:21am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...Neither of us 'know' but I base my opinions on thousands of hours of research and 'facts'...what do you base your opinions on?What is there to show there was an abduction? Sunday at 1:22am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor SY are keeping all the information that is important 'under the radar...Just before the McCanns were made arguidos they were told that the PJ wwere searching for a live child....I do not believe everything I'm told...no...but they have their reasons...the same as the PJ had their reasons for telling Kate and Gerry they were not considered suspects...just before they were made suspects... Sunday at 1:25am 1

Penny Reed I have also researched the case for a lengthy period. I base the possibility of an abduction on the statements of Scotland Yard and the AG of Portugal that such a possibility exists. I also recognise that the witness statements of the Smiths and Jane Tanner suggest the possibility of an abductor. This is backed up by the fact that noone has ever volunteered to be the unknown man carrying a child that night. I also base it on the fact that I think its almost unbelievable that seven other adults would all collude in this story when it could destroy them. What would they gain by it? Sunday at 1:26am

Penny Reed I know that none of that proves there was an abduction but it is evidence that there may have been. Sunday at 1:27am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor NO-ONE can take away the THOUSANDS of hours of research that I have done over the last 5+ years... and because I went through everything in detail I have managed to retain a lot of that info... I do not believe as I do because of a gut feeling... its a jig saw that has MANY pieces available... Sunday at 1:28am Edited 3

Penny Reed Well I am afraid no matter how many hours of research you have done that I am not yet convinced either way. I am entitled to my opinions surely and have given my reasons for those opinions. Sunday at 1:28am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So Penny...can you explain why the T9 (except the Paynes) entered the apartments through the PATIO doors? Sunday at 1:30am 2

Penny Reed I've no idea about the shutters. A wild guess might be that if there had been an abduction and they were in a panic about where there daughter was then seeing what they thought were locked shutters now open they might just have presumed they had been jemmied but its a guess. Sunday at 1:30am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Has anyone thought that maybe the children were being watched and she died while in one of the OTHER friends care? Sunday at 1:31am 3

Penny Reed Is there any evidence she died while in another person's care of is that just a wild guess like my idea relating to the shutters? Sunday at 1:32am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor To suggest that the T7 would not support the McCanns has nothing to do with HOW Madeleine disappeared, which is the question asked on this thread...

Sunday at 1:33am 1

Penny Reed Are you now saying that Scotland Yard and the PJ are hiding the fact that two of the Tapas group have spoken up but they are not yet charging the McCanns and the rest of the Tapas for the crimes? What would they be waiting for? Sunday at 1:33am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Anything is a guess but based on 'evidence' is a better guess than based on a 'public' report that keeps everyone happy... Sunday at 1:34am 1

Penny Reed Lizzy I find it very odd that you denigrate one public report but rely heavily on the earlier report. Are you saying that the Almeida report was truth and the AG report was lies? Are you once again saying that the SY statements are lies? Sunday at 1:37am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny, I have yet to see how you suggest Madeleine disappeared apart from that she was possibly abducted...so...Am I to presume that you are here to try to change the minds of others as your opinions are not based on the files... only that you appear to be trying to prove WHY the files must not be believed...
Sunday at 1:37am Lizzy Hideho Taylor My question here Penny is HOW DID MADELEINE DISAPPEAR? Sunday at 1:37am 4

Lizzy Hideho Taylor It was NOT because she was neglected... Sunday at 1:38am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Unless you believe the abduction... Sunday at 1:38am 1

Penny Reed Sorry. Where have I said that the files are not to be believed? I have quoted frequently from the files. I believe that the files should be taken as a whole and not cherrypicked. The AG report clearly came after the Almeida report which was not based on all the evidence. I am not here to change people's minds as you suggest but to question and to learn. And I think I am doing that. Sunday at 1:39am 3

Lizzy Hideho Taylor If you believe in the abduction Penny that is you prerogtive but this group is here to provide information for members to make up their own minds...and you probably popped in accidentally..... So what have you learned by being here? Sunday at 1:39am 2

Penny Reed I don't rely on just one bit of the files which suits me but have worked through them and realised that the PJ opinions changed as evidence was collected. Sunday at 1:39am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...can you please explain to me how you believe Madeleine disappeared... Sunday at 1:40am 1

Penny Reed Madeleine could have been abducted as both Scotland Yard and the Portuguese have so far concluded or she could have died which they both also claim as a possibility. I a trying to find out what actually happened but won't make my mind up till there is proof one way or the other. I think making up your mind when there is no proof is foolish. Sunday at 1:41am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor you did not answer me about why they would use the patio doors to gain entrance to the apartments.... Sunday at 1:41am

Penny Reed They would use the patio doors because it was quicker than going all the way round. Sunday at 1:41am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So...they lied about going in through the front entrance...which would also mean that Jane Tanner would not have seen anyone crossing the road... Sunday at 1:43am Edited 6

Penny Reed Why would Jane Tanner not have seen anyone? Who said she used the patio doors? Did her apartment have patio doors? I think not. Sunday at 1:44am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So Penny...do you believe, with all your years of experience in researching the case, that Madeleine may very well have been abducted? Sunday at 1:44am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Goncalo Amaral claims that they used the back entrance which makes Janes statement about seeing the abductor 'ring hollow' Sunday at 1:45am Edited 3

Penny Reed Why are you not reading my posts Lizzy? I have said now for the fourth time that I believe in exactly the same way that Scotland Yard and the Portuguese AG as seen in the files says that abduction is a possibility. Sunday at 1:46am

Penny Reed Lizzy as admin, do you approve of abusive posts such as those of Bear Grizz towards me? Sunday at 1:47am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am sorry...this thread is going faster than I can refresh...but I would like to hear what YOU believe, never mind SY and the PJ...what do YOU think happened...using the research you have? Sunday at 1:47am Edited 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor I havent seen them but would ask you Bear to refrain from making comments that are disrespectful... Sunday at 1:48am Edited

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Gee penny I can barely keep up with YOU..never mind other comments! Sunday at 1:49am

Penny Reed I think that either Madeleine was abducted or she died. I have no way of knowing which because there is no proof (nor even enough evidence) in the files to determine which happened. Sunday at 1:49am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor So why do you believe she was abducted? Sunday at 1:49am 1

Penny Reed And I base that on the fact that both the AG of Portugal in the archival report and Scotland Yard more recently have also both claimed that as yet there is no proof of either. Sunday at 1:50am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor and if you believe she died...why is she missing? Sunday at 1:50am 2

Penny Reed If she died then whoever was responsible would not wish to be caught. That's fairly obvious I would have thought. But as I said I don't believe she died or that she was abducted. I believe both are possibilities. Sunday at 1:51am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor This group is about what is in the files and you are welcome to have your own opinions but if you only choose to believe what you have been told without following up with the reason those statements were made then I am concerned there is no evidence that you can produce and that your opinion is not based on anything other than what you have been told Sunday at 1:52am 3

Lizzy Hideho Taylor You are welcome to have your own opinions...but I request that you do not attempt to influence members with your opinions based on wht you have been told...please expalin WHY...with informnation from the files...you believe as you do... this group is not here to TELL people what may or may not have happened...we require the links to WHY opinions are formed... Noone should BLINDLY believe... Sunday at 1:55am Edited 5

Lizzy Hideho Taylor The UK has been TOLD what they should believe...we are here to give them the opportunity to SEE the information available... Sunday at 1:56am 7

Penny Reed I have based my claims on the FILES. I have quoted the fact that the AG of Portugal in a report long after the Almeida interim report which only had half the evidence to consider, claimed that there is a possibility of abduction. How is that not basing my thoughts and opinions on the files? Sunday at 1:56am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor I would STILL like to hear HOW Madeleine disappeared, from those that DON't believe its an abduction! Sunday at 2:00am 2

Penny Reed Well, Lizzy, if you think believing the half-way report over the full-time report is not the right way of going forward I cannot agree. This is what the full-time report says and this has been backed up by Scotland Yard more recently. If believing these two goes against your rules I am sorry." "it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive,

whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively the most dramatic to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely." Sunday at 2:00am 1

Penny Reed Lizzy, you claim you want to know how Madeleine disappeared if not through abduction. Didn't Amaral come up with the idea of a fridge? Can you tell me is there any evidence of a fridge in the actual files or did he just invent that idea? Sunday at 2:02am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...if like many before you...you have come here to try to influence members with your opinions that have not yet been based on anything from the files then I would ask politely that you allow those that ARE referring to the details of the files to have their opinions... If you agree with this forum then you will know that we are here to let people know and make their own decisions about the dogs etc... Sunday at 2:02am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor we know VERY LITTLE about the IMPORTANT information in the unreleased files...he was there...he knows... Sunday at 2:03am 1

Penny Reed But I am referring to exact details from the files. It seems they are just not details that you want referred to. Sunday at 2:06am 1

Penny Reed Lizzy, could you please indicate to me where the idea of the fridge is in the files or was that just an invention from Amaral? Sunday at 2:06am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...If you have another agenda for being here then I will allow you to bow out gracefully...If, however, you plan on staying and 'attacking' other less knowledgeable members in an effort to prevent them from researching the files then I will have to make decisions based on that.. I prefer to protect my members from those that attempt to intimidate... I respect lack of knowledge...but I do not respect members that have an agenda that is not in keeping with CONTROVERSY Sunday at 2:07am 5

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...this thread is about HOW Madeleine disappeared...its not about serving your agenda... Please refrain from taking it off topic Sunday at 2:09am 3

Penny Reed Which posts of mine have intimidated other members? Please quote them as I don't believe I have done that. I have quoted from the files and have stated my opiniions and beliefs based on the facts I have found in the files and on the facts that Scotland Yard and the Portuguese AG have reported. How in anyone's book is that intimidating others? Sunday at 2:09am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor You know EXACTLY what I am saying Penny and I would not embarrass myself by pretending to treat you as a 'normal' member... YOU know you are not and EVERYONE ELSE knows you are not here for the reasons CONTROVERSY exists. Sunday at 2:12am Edited 3

Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am asking for links from you Penny that show WHY anyone should believe Madeleine disappeared because of an abduction...

Sunday at 2:13am 3

Penny Reed Well I am fascinated now that I have been declared to be 'abnormal' by admin here. I want to debate the subject. Is that abnormal? Are we all supposed to just accept what is posted and not ask questions? Sunday at 2:13am

Penny Reed Lizzy, I repeat my question. You wanted to know how Madeleine might have disappeared. There is a theory about a fridge. Is that based on evidence in the files or not? Sunday at 2:14am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor This group is to allow new members to learn from the files...you are stating an opinion after apparent years of research and yet you have not yet shown us the links to why you believe as you do... Sunday at 2:15am 5

Lizzy Hideho Taylor HOW she disappeared is not about what happened so much as WHO 'created' her disappearance... Sunday at 2:16am 4

Penny Reed For God's sake Lizzy! I have posted the precise quote from the AG which I base my conclusion on. There is a possibility of abduction and there is a possibility of death. The experts of Portugal and Scotland Yard both say they have no proof of either. Is it so wrong to believe the police of these two countries while there is no proof anywhere of either event? Sunday at 2:17am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny...as I have said before....you are here for your own agenda.... Please make decisions based on that knowledge that we now ALL have... Sunday at 2:17am 3

Lizzy Hideho Taylor so BEFORE they made that announncement WHAT did you believe and what is it based on? Sunday at 2:17am 3

Penny Reed Lisa, having posted the precise quote from the AG to back up my claim that there is a possibility of abduction I really do not understand how you can say that I am providing no evidence. Here is the quote again. "it was not possible to obtain any piece of evidence that would allow for a medium man, under the light of the criteria of logics, of normality and of the general rules of experience, to formulate any lucid, sensate, serious and honest conclusion about the circumstances under which the child was removed from the apartment (whether dead or alive, whether killed in a neglectful homicide or an intended homicide, whether the victim of a targeted abduction or an opportunistic abduction), nor even to produce a consistent prognosis about her destiny and inclusively the most dramatic to establish whether she is still alive or if she is dead, as seems more likely." Sunday at 2:18am 1

Penny Reed That's twice I have posted evidence that there is a possibility of abduction which is what I claimed. Now where is your evidence or is there none you can offer? Sunday at 2:19am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Your agenda here is to 'act' on behalf of the information 'allowed' in the UK...unless you choose to comment on all the details in the files then I believe you are in the wrong group... Sunday at 2:20am 5

Penny Reed Which details of the files are you suggesting I am not commenting on? And why do you apparently refuse to comment on the details such as the AG report and rely on the one that came much earlier? And why are you not commenting on the files regarding the fridge? Is there any evidence in the files for this fridge or not and if not why are you allowing discussion about it? Sunday at 2:22am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Penny... I have asked you politely to reconsider whether this is the right group for you.... Do you wish to show all the details in the files..dogs etc to new members? THATS why we are here... to give links and quotes to everyone so they can make their own decisions...If you wish to enter into deep discussion as to WHY you dont believe the details in the files then I suggest you use a different forum Sunday at 2:23am 3

Penny Reed Are you saying that only people who are 100% certain that the McCanns were guilty of the death or cover up of the death of their daughter are welcome here? Because having not seen any proof of that I prefer to keep an open mind and debate all the issues. And how does blocking people because they ask questions and don't agree with you help to discover the truth. So many people seem to take pleasure in blocking that it seems rather silly. Sunday at 2:26am 2

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Don't worry bear...i know what I am dong and I know what 'Penny' is doing and she/he knows that .... I have asked respectfully for 'penny' to remove him/herself from the group based on their agenda not being suitable for this group... I'm sure he/she has a good heart... and wont bother us further... Sunday at 2:38am 5

Penny Reed And in answer to Lizzy who asked how the child may have disappeared if not by abduction, I pointed out that one theory was the fridge but asked where the evidence for that theory comes from? So far I have had no response. Sunday at 2:38am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor Goncalo Amaral was the CHIEF COORDINATOR and has discussed about the fluids leaking onto the curb...details that are obviously not in the released files along with all the other important information Sunday at 2:40am 4

Lizzy Hideho Taylor The fluids were suggested to have come from a body that was frozen... Sunday at 2:41am Edited 3

Penny Reed Is there anything in the files about a frozen body? Sunday at 2:42am

Lizzy Hideho Taylor I am closing this thread temporarily and asking 'Penny' to do whats right for the group... HE/SHE has the option of leaving voluntarily... I have had enough of the discussion (as before...lol) Sunday at 2:44am 4

Lizzy Hideho Taylor THREAD CLOSED TEMPORARILY...ANY FURTHER POSTS MAY BE DELETED AND MEMBERS REMOVED. Sunday at 2:45am 6

Penny Reed So for asking questions you are trying to bully me into leaving the group. Sorry, no. Sunday at 2:45am 1

Lizzy Hideho Taylor You have the option 'Penny' Sunday at 2:46am 3

And then she was banned......