13 February 2001 Source: Digital file from the Court Reporters Office, Southern District of New York.

This is the transcript of Day 4 of the trial. See other transcripts: http://cryptome.org/usa-v-ubl-dt.htm

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UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF NEW YORK ------------------------------x UNITED STATES OF AMERICA v. USAMA BIN LADEN, et al., Defendants. ------------------------------x New York, N.Y. February 13, 2001 9:50 a.m. S(7) 98 Cr. 1023

Before: HON. LEONARD B. SAND, District Judge

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APPEARANCES MARY JO WHITE United States Attorney for the Southern District of New York BY: PATRICK FITZGERALD KENNETH KARAS PAUL BUTLER Assistant United States Attorneys SAM A. SCHMIDT JOSHUA DRATEL KRISTIAN K. LARSEN Attorneys for defendant Wadih El Hage ANTHONY L. RICCO EDWARD D. WILFORD CARL J. HERMAN SANDRA A. BABCOCK Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Sadeek Odeh FREDRICK H. COHN DAVID P. BAUGH Attorneys for defendant Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-'Owhali JEREMY SCHNEIDER DAVID STERN DAVID RUHNKE Attorneys for defendant Khalfan Khamis Mohamed

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(Trial resumes; jury not present) THE COURT: Let me make some logistic announcements.

I have signed this morning, and they are presently being filed under seal, two opinions which I believe dispose of all motions presently fully submitted before the Court. The opinions include the Court's reasoning on its previously announced decision to permit the admission of the statements made in Kenya and South Africa, except for the statements made by Mr. al-'Owhali prior to his receipt of oral Miranda rights. Also included in those opinions are the Court's reasoning with respect to issues relating to presentment, the identification parade, and other miscellaneous matters. They

are in two separate opinions, and a classified appendix filed under seal. The two opinions will be unsealed on the 16th and

counsel are to advise the Court in writing prior to that time whether any redactions are appropriate prior to that being unsealed. The classified appendix, which deals with matters relating to the transportation of the defendant Odeh from Pakistan to Kenya, will remain classified and sealed until such time as the government advises that that classification is no longer required.

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We learned over the weekend that Mr. Schmidt, who had prepared the cross-examination of al-Fadl, has the flu, and although he has all confidence in Mr. Dratel, since he had

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prepared that cross-examination, he asked that it be deferred. And so what we will do this morning is we'll have the cross-examination by the counsel for the three other defendants, whereupon we will adjourn for today. Tomorrow if Mr. Schmidt is not recovered sufficiently to cross-examine, we will proceed with the next government witness, with the understanding that al-Fadl will be recalled for purposes of further cross-examination and redirect. In what sequence will the defendants cross-examine the witness? MR. HERMAN: MR. BAUGH: Honor. MR. RUHNKE: THE COURT: We'll finish, your Honor. And am I correct that we will complete Mr. Odeh will go first, your Honor. Mr. al-'Owhali will go second, your

before the lunch break? MR. COHN: Certainly if the government is deferring

any of its redirect until after cross-examination. THE COURT: There's no point in having redirect until

after all cross-examinations. MR. COHN: THE COURT: Then the answer is yes. That's a very important logistical

question because we haven't ordered lunch for the jurors.

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That's a matter of great concern. MR. FITZGERALD: I had about ten minutes more with

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the witness to start. THE COURT: Ten minutes more of direct? Direct. Very well.

MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT:

Of direct of the witness.

Mr. Dratel, do you want me to tell the jury that Mr. Schmidt is ill, or should I not say anything? saying anything would be best. MR. DRATEL: I think the Court should say that the Maybe not

cross-examination of Mr. al-Fadl by Mr. El Hage is being deferred because of Mr. Schmidt's illness, so they don't think that he will not cross-examine, it's coming. THE COURT: I don't think they have any sense what We had a sense as to what the

the normal sequence would be.

sequence will be, but I don't think they will. MR. DRATEL: Maybe if you proceed with other

witnesses tomorrow, if we don't go forward tomorrow, maybe that would be appropriate. THE COURT: That would be the time, all right.

I certainly encourage the defense teams to arrange so that there is not this huge array of defense counsel sitting here. That's a decision that defense counsel have made for

themselves, but it is not -- I just want to be clear that it isn't a requirement of the Court that there be three counsel

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present for each defendant at all times. We're now just awaiting the defendants, then we'll

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bring in the jury, then we'll have ten minutes or more of redirect and then we'll proceed with the cross-examination by Odeh, Al-'Owhali, and K.K. Mohamed, in that sequence, and then we'll adjourn. Is there anything else anybody wants to take up? Very well. (Brief recess) (Jury present) THE COURT: THE JURY: THE COURT: Good morning, ladies and gentlemen. Good morning. I hope everyone had a pleasant weekend,

and we will resume with the continued direct examination by the government of the government's first witness, al-Fadl, and he may take the stand. And I understand we have a new interpreter. Mr. Kenneally, will you swear the interpreter. (Interpreter sworn) DEPUTY CLERK: Please state your full name. My name is Seham Susan Laraby,

THE INTERPRETER: L-A-R-A-B-Y. DEPUTY CLERK:

Thank you.

JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL, Resumes THE COURT: Mr. al-Fadl, the Court advises you that

you are still under oath.

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THE WITNESS:

Okay.

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THE COURT:

Mr. Fitzgerald. Thank you, Judge.

MR. FITZGERALD:

DIRECT EXAMINATION (continued) BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Mr. Fadl, if you would continue to try to talk slowly and

clearly into the microphone in front of you. Now, when we ended last week you mentioned that as part of your agreement with the government you were to receive a $20,000 loan. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Have you received that loan yet? Not yet. During the time that you have been living in the United Do you recall that testimony?

States, first by yourself and then joined by your family, who was it that has paid your housing, living and medical expenses? A. Q. When I was in New York, it was the FBI. And after you left the FBI's custody, who paid for your

special housing, food, medical, etc.? A. Q. The Witness Protection. And you mentioned last week that you did not tell the

first team of U.S. government interviewers about the money you stole from Bin Laden, and you mentioned the word "two days." Do you recall that testimony?

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A.

Correct.

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Q.

When during the three-week period that you were

interviewed, approximately three-week period, did you tell the government people that you had stolen Bin Laden's money? A. Q. The last two days. And why did you say you told them over two days or after

two days? A. When they asked me on the -- they say we ask you all the

questions, but something you have to tell us about yourself, and I try to don't tell them but they say if you don't tell, we not going to trust you and because we know you hide something. Q. So it was two days it took you to tell them, not the

second day of the interview? A. Q. A. Q. The second day, yes, end of the second day. And in the three-week period, which two days were they? The last two days. Last week you described the offices of the al Qaeda Do you recall that testimony?

businesses on McNimr Street. A. Q. Yes.

Was there ever a time that Wadih El Hage had an office in

McNimr Street? A. Q. A. Yes. Where was the office that he worked in? When you enter the first, the secretary, and after that,

hall, and his office on the right side.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Did he share it with anyone at that time? No, he's only by himself. How many floors are at the McNimr Street office? It's one floor. You also described last week how you participated in

paying the salaries of the al Qaeda people at McNimr Street. Do you recall that testimony? A. Q. Yes. Did you pay all the al Qaeda people salaries at the McNimr

Street office or just the al Qaeda people who were working at that building? A. No, the people working, the companies in that building,

Ladin International Company, Taba Investments, Qudurat Transportation and Themar al Mubaraka company. Q. A. Q. Let me stop you. You say Ladin International, Taba?

Investment, Themar Mubarak, and Qudurat Transportation. Let me try to make it clear. If you worked for al Qaeda

but did not work in the McNimr Street office, did you get paid at the McNimr Street office? A. Q. No. You mentioned the office of Wadi al Aqiq, the Wadi al Aqiq

offices, where were they located? A. They are in Riyadh City in Khartoum and near the Riyadh

Street. Q. And can you tell us the type of neighborhood that the Wadi

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al Aqiq office was located in? A. It's residential area but they got some offices for

organization, relief organization like al Barr International Organization and Islamic Relief Organization. Q. If you could just describe how you would walk into the

offices at Wadi al Aqiq in that neighborhood, how you would get to the business space that belonged to Wadi al Aqiq. A. It's two floor, and when you go, first, the secretary, and

after that, Themar al Mubaraka, they move from McNimr Street to the building and they got the right office. Q. A. Q. A. You mentioned there were two floors? Yes. The offices for al Qaeda, on which floor were they? Bin Laden, he got office in the second floor, and Sharif

al Din Ali Mukhtar, he got also office upstairs, and Dr. Mubarak al Doori in the first floor, right of the secretary hall. Q. How did you get from the ground floor to the office of Bin

Laden on the second floor? A. As soon as the secretary, you pass the secretary and you

got the stair. Q. You mentioned a person by the name of Abu Hajer al Iraqi.

How did you know when a person was a member of al Qaeda? A. If you see him make bayat or somebody tell you or he do al

Qaeda agenda or duty.

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Q.

For Abu Hajer al Iraqi, did you actually see him make the

bayat? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. Did you actually see him sign the contract? No. Did you see him work at al Qaeda business? Yes. Did anyone at al Qaeda ever tell you that Abu Hajer was

not a member of al Qaeda? A. Q. Some people say that. Do you recall anyone in particular who told you that Abu

Hajer was not a sworn member of al Qaeda? A. Q. A. I remember Abu Habib Tunisi. What did a Abu Habib Tunisi tell you? He say Abu Hajer, he's not al Qaeda member and he just

work but he's not member, he's not al Qaeda. Q. A. Q. Did you see Abu Hajer among the al Qaeda people? Yes. Were you ever told that there was anything you could not

discuss in front of Abu Hajer? A. Q. No. You mentioned last week that there came a time when Abu Do

Hafs el Masry returned to Khartoum from a trip to Somalia. you recall that testimony? A. Yes.

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Q. A. Q. A.

How many trips did you know Abu Hafs to take to Somalia? I remember two. Would you tell us what the first trip was? I remember after that they make fatwah and they say the They sent Abu

American people come to the horn of Africa.

Hafs el Masry to Somalia to Mogadishu and he went to see about report, about if they can do something over there or how the training going to be, how the people get over there, and he came back with a report. Q. And how did you learn about the report he brought back

from Somalia? A. Well, Abu Sudani, he told me about that and I remember we

got meeting in the big guesthouse on Riyadh Street and in front yard and the people talk about that. Q. A. Did you hear Abu Hafs give the report about what he found? I remember in his house he say it is not going to be easy,

but we have to start a little bit, if it's getting bigger. MR. HERMAN: BY MR. FITZGERALD: Q. Can you tell us approximately when this was that you heard Can we have a time frame.

the report from Abu Hafs? A. Q. A. Q. It could be during '93. Do you recall what time in 1993? No, I don't remember. What did he say about -- you said it could be, it won't be

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easy. A.

What did he say beyond that?

He said it is not easy to start because different tribe,

different groups, there's nobody control going on over there, but we try to start a little bit and if go good, we go bigger. Q. Now, prior to coming to court today did you listen to a

tape recording with a CD? A. Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: Your Honor, I'll just refer to

Government Exhibit 200A for identification purposes only at this time. Q. In listening to that recording, I just have a couple of

brief questions. Did you recognize any of the voices on that recording that you heard before coming to court? A. Q. One. Can you tell us the voice of the person whose voice you

recognized? A. Q. A. Dr. Abdel Moez Ayman al Zawahiri. Just so we're clear, is that one person or two? One person. MR. FITZGERALD: Thank you.

I have nothing further, Judge. THE COURT: Very well. All right, we'll now proceed

with the cross-examination. counsel for defendant Odeh.

The first cross-examination is by Mr. Herman.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes.

MR. HERMAN: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. HERMAN: Q. A. Q.

Thank you, Judge.

Good morning, Mr. al-Fadl. Good morning. Mr. al-Fadl, I'm going to take you back to 1988 when you

went to Afghanistan. A. Q. Okay. And before that you had been residing in the United

States? A. Q. Yes. And you had been supporting the fight in Afghanistan; is

that correct? A. Q. Yes. And the situation in Afghanistan was that the Soviet Union

had invaded the country of Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And that was about 1979? Yes. And the Afghani people were resisting the Soviet Union; is

that correct? A. Q. I understand, but I don't understand "resisting." Okay. I'll rephrase it. There was a war?

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Q.

And the Afghani people were fighting the war against the

Russians? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And the Afghani people were a Muslim people? Yes. And the Russians believed in communism? Yes. And at some point, young Muslims from around the world

started coming to Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. To participate in this war? Correct. And to help the Muslim people fight against the Russians? Correct. And they came from many parts of the world; is that right? Correct. And they were often students, is that true? Yes. Young people? Yes. Who had a desire to participate with other young Muslim

men in this war; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And many of them had very high ideals or aspirations? Bad

word.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 cause? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Many of them wanted to be involved with a Muslim

Yes, they want to help the Afghani people. Help the Afghani people? Yes. Even though they themselves were not from Afghanistan? Yes. And a call went out to many parts of the world for young

men to come to Afghanistan and to assist in the struggle; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Actually, it's not call, it's a fatwah. And you came to Afghanistan? Yes. And you participated in the struggle at that time? Yes. And you met young men from many other countries; is that

right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Young and older. I'm sorry? Young men and older men. Okay. Yes. From Lebanon, yes? Yes. From Sudan? Some people came from Syria; is that right?

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A.

Everywhere.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Philippines? (Nods head) United States, correct? Yes. And there was an organization which was established to

help them get involved in the situation in Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Which you described to us last week, right? Right. Now, the men who came to fight in Afghanistan, many of

them had not been trained as fighters; is that right? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? Okay. Many of the men who came to Afghanistan to help the

Afghani people fight against the Russians were not trained or had not been trained to fight? A. Q. No, they trained. Okay. When they got to Afghanistan, did they know how to

fight? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. And Afghanistan is a very rugged country, is that true? I don't understand "rugged." Okay, Afghanistan has many mountains? Yes.

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Q.

And it's difficult to get around the country?

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A. Q.

Yes. It's a very harsh climate? It's a difficult geography and

climate? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And these young men were called Mujahadeen; is that right? Yes. And many of them took a name for themselves when they

participated in the fighting in Afghanistan; is that right? A. Q. Yes. They wouldn't use their given name, they would take a name

which they would be called when they were in Afghanistan; is that right? A. Q. Yes, they call it for security purpose. And also, as I understand it, many Islamic-trained

scholars also came to Afghanistan? A. Q. Correct. And part of what was taking place was a feeling on behalf

of many people that Afghanistan would become a true Islamic country; is that right? A. Q. Some people, yes, they think that. And that attracted some of these Muslim men from other

parts of the country to come to Afghanistan; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And in Afghanistan they learned how to fight; is that

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correct? A. Yes.

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Q. A. Q.

They learned more about Islam and their religion? Yes. I mean, that part of the program at these camps that you

described was religious teachings? A. Q. Yes. Because many of the young men did not have a very good

background in Islam; is that right? A. Q. Yes, but if you let me explain a little bit. Well, let me just ask you some questions and another

lawyer may want you to explain, but I just had some other areas I want to cover with you, if that's all right. A. Q. Okay. Would it be fair to say that some of the men who came to

Afghanistan really didn't have a very strong background in Islam? A. Q. Yes. And they were taught the fundamentals of the religion in

these camps; is that correct? A. not. Q. A. Q. So there were a variety of types of backgrounds of people? Yes. And some of them are coming to Afghanistan and with the Some of them, they have background religion, some of them

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desire to learn about Islam? A. They focus on Jihad.

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Q.

And they would use religious studies to learn how to live

a better life; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And there was a lot of good feelings among the men who

came to Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Good relationship? Yes. Yes. And they would greet each other warmly? Yes. And they would embrace each other when they would meet? Yes, they very nice to each other. A sign of brotherhood? Yes. And at that point the enemy was the Soviet Union? Yes. And the men who came were encouraged to study and to pray;

is that right? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? The young men who came to Afghanistan were encouraged,

were taught to study Koran and to pray? A. Q. Yes. Now, there came a time when Usama Bin Laden came to

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Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes. And that would have been about 1985?

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A.

He one of the first three of the people come to

Afghanistan. Q. A. He was one of the first Arab people? The first three, the first three of people. A lot of

people go to Afghanistan. Q. A. Q. A. Q. So he was one of the very first? Yes. And he was originally from Saudi Arabia; is that right? He's Yemen roots. Okay. And his father was a very successful builder in

Saudi Arabia; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And you've described Usama Bin Laden as a billionaire,

with a B; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And he came to Afghanistan, as you said, with other, two

other people? A. Q. Yes. And he became involved in the war in Afghanistan; is that

correct? A. Q. Yes. And he contributed some of his money to the war efforts on

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behalf of the Afghani people; is that right? A. Q. Correct. In approximately 1987 Usama Bin Laden and Abdallah Azzam

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established the service office; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, the Mektab al Khidemat Service. Mektab al Khidemat? Yes. And that was designed to assist the young men or the men

who were coming to Afghanistan to fight; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Help them. Help them, provide them with documentation? Everything. Because these young men, most of them had never been to

Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Young men and older men. Okay. How old were you when you came to Afghanistan?

Maybe around 20s. In your 20s? Yes. Most of the men, young or old, had not been to Afghanistan

before; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And in fact, what they had to do was to go through

Pakistan to get into Afghanistan, is that what happened? A. Correct.

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Q.

Because it was not possible to go directly, to fly

directly into Afghanistan? A. No, because 15 year they -- because the Russia, they

control most of Afghanistan then that time.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

All right. Most of it.

The Russians were in control of certain areas?

Most of the country? Yes. So a base was established in Peshawar in Pakistan to

permit these men to enter into Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes. Now, over the course of years Usama Bin Laden became more

involved in the efforts in Afghanistan; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And he actually got involved with building roads in

Afghanistan? A. Q. A. Q. Not at that time. Okay. Was that later on?

I don't know about that. Okay. Do you know anything about him -- did he bring

equipment in from Saudi Arabia to aid in the war efforts? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, but for camps. For camps? Yes. Bulldozers and that type of heavy equipment?

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A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. Because his family was in that business; is that right? It could be. And this was before al Qaeda was ever formed; is that

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correct? A. Yes, because everybody work for him before even al Qaeda

established. Q. And al Qaeda, I think you told us, wasn't actually

established until 1989? A. Q. Yes. And so it was -- Bin Laden had been in Afghanistan for at

least four years before al Qaeda was formed; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Again, at this point the Russians are the enemy; is that

correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Soviet Union. Okay. Yes. As it existed back then was the enemy? Yes. And there really wasn't any talk or conversation about the The Soviet Union?

United States as being the enemy; is that correct? A. Q. A. At what time? Before 1989. Yes, you're right.

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Q.

Okay.

In fact, it really wasn't until 1991 when the

headquarters was moved to Sudan that there began to be discussions about the United States being the enemy? A. It's before we move to Sudan the people start talking

about that.

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Q.

The war with the Soviet Union ended in 1989; is that

right? A. Q. A. Yes. But fighting continued in Afghanistan; is that correct? Yes, because the president of Afghanistan, he got support

from the Soviet Union. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The Soviet union continued to support? That Najibullah. Some communist elements in Afghanistan? Yes. So even though the Muslim people had defeated the Soviet

Union, there was still fighting taking place in Afghanistan? A. Q. Correct. And the Muslim people were fighting the communists because

they wanted to have Muslim control over Afghanistan? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. And to have a government which was based on Islamic law? Correct. And men, young and old, continued to come to Afghanistan

to participate in the continuing struggle; is that right?

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A. Q. A. Q. A.

At what time? Even after 1989. Yes. 1990, yes? No, it's change.

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Q. A. Q. A.

They weren't coming to Afghanistan in 1990 or they were? Not to help Afghani, Soviet Union. I'm sorry? They came because the al Qaeda established that time and

some people, they want to come to join it. Q. A. Q. To join al Qaeda? Yes. And to be part of the group which was trying to make

Afghanistan into a pure Muslim country? A. Q. A. Q. No, that time they start different agenda. They start what? Different agenda. All right. The agenda began to change when Usama Bin

Laden became interested in moving to the Sudan; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Now, Mr. al-Fadl, you grew up in the Sudan; is that

correct? A. Q. Correct. And your father was a successful businessman in the Sudan,

is that accurate?

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A. Q.

Correct. And you were very familiar with the political situation in

the Sudan; is that correct? A. Q. When I'm younger, a little, not too much. But by the time that Bin Laden began to move al Qaeda to

the Sudan, you were pretty familiar with the political

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situation, is that fair to say? A. Q. Yes. And there had been a change in the political situation in

the Sudan in June of 1989; is that right? A. Q. A. Correct. And what happened in June of 1989? I remember that time I was in Peshawar and they say Muslim

group change the government of Sudan, they say Islamic National Front, they took the government in Sudan. Q. A. Q. Are you finished? Yes. The prime minister had been a man named Sadiq al-Mahdi, I'm sorry.

correct? A. Q. Yes. Who was related to the individual who had first liberated

Sudan in the 19th century? A. Q. A. Correct. And he was deposed? What does that mean?

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Q.

Okay.

He no longer was the prime minister in June of

1989? A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, right. In fact, he went to jail? You're right. And the National Islamic Front was then running the

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country? A. Q. Correct. Yes.

Now, between 1989 and 1991, the organization of al Qaeda

was gradually moving to the Sudan; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And during that time you were a member of al Qaeda; is

that right? A. Q. Yes. You had taken an oath to obey the rules of the

organization; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And various specialties were developing within al Qaeda,

is that correct, in terms of people who had various jobs? A. Q. Could you repeat, please? Yes. You told -(Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes, you're right. Okay. For example, you told us last week that some

individuals became involved with the business interests of al

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Qaeda; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Some individuals got involved with the financial dealings

of al Qaeda? A. Q. A. Correct. Is that right? Yes.

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Q. A. Q.

In terms of bank accounts and payroll; is that right? Yes. And there were individuals who were involved with the

publicity with regard -- or information regarding the organization? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes, you're right. Okay. And I also gather that there were people who

specialized in obtaining travel documents for members of al Qaeda who wished to travel to foreign countries? A. Q. Yes. And this actually had started in Afghanistan where they

would use the documents of Muslims who had died in the struggle and used them to help other people travel? A. Q. Yes. And in fact, in Afghanistan they taught classes to some of

the men about how to obtain documents, false passports documents; is that right?

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A. Q.

Yes. So this was a specialty within the organization of al

Qaeda; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, but it is changed when we went to Sudan. All right. Okay. You yourself would travel to many places for al Qaeda; is I'm now talking about before you got to Sudan.

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you used different names or aliases? Yes. And I think you mentioned that maybe even nine or ten

different names; is that right? A. Q. Yeah. In fact, even Usama Bin Laden was able to travel under a

false name; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Even though he was a fairly well-known person at that

time? A. Yes. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: Q. Is there an answer? I say yes.

And the people who were preparing the false passports

would try to match the description of the person with the false passport, is that your understanding?

441

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

A. Q.

Yes. And sometimes they would take a photograph of the person

who wished to travel and put it into the passport? A. Q. Yes. Sometimes they would actually create an entirely new false

passport? A. Q. Yes. Sometimes they would use an existing passport from one

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

country to have a person travel to a different country? A. Q. I don't know what "existing." I'll withdraw it. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. And I gather now when you got to Sudan -- and I'm talking

now after 1991 -- you were even able to obtain passports from the Sudanese government; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, we got a couple hundred. Okay, for your members of al Qaeda so they could travel

outside the Sudan; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And these were again false passports; is that right? No. All right, they were real passports? Yes, real passport. For real people?

442

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes, and making Sudanese citizenships. And giving them Sudanese citizenship? Yes. Were these people, were all these people actually citizens

of Sudan? A. Q. No. And also, al Qaeda developed ways of hiding the fact that

their members were traveling, is that true?

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

I don't understand that. When al Qaeda members would travel and they did not want

to be shown to be a member of al Qaeda or even a Muslim, they would -- they might shave their beard? A. Q. Yes. They might take magazines which a Muslim would not

ordinarily read? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. They might carry, as you mentioned, cigarettes, even

though it was prohibited to smoke? A. Q. Yes. As a means of escaping detection when they went through

Customs; is that right? A. Q. Yes. And another technique that was taught to the members of al

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Qaeda, especially in Pakistan, was to use bribes? A. I don't understand that. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes, sometimes we use that. Another feature of the al Qaeda organization or another

aspect of the organization was that not everybody in the organization always knew everything that the organization was doing, is that true? A. Not exactly.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

People in the organization had various specialties; is

that right? A. Q. Yes. And if someone didn't have a specialty and was not

involved, let's say, in a mission, a particular project, that person wouldn't necessarily know about what the mission was; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Not exactly. You were the third person to join al Qaeda; is that right? Sign, at that time. To sign the contract with al Qaeda; is that right? Yes. And you were in a high position in al Qaeda; is that

correct? A. Q. The shura council up to me, so I'm under them. You were under the shura council?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. And al Qaeda trusted you with large amounts of money? Yes. There were times when you would be carrying $50,000 in

American dollars in cash; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Or even more? Yes. And you also were involved when al Qaeda went to the Sudan

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

of purchasing property in the Sudan; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that was over $200,000; is that right? 250, yes. $250,000? Yes. So you were in a position of trust with regard to al

Qaeda; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you were in a position of responsibility? Yes. And you knew many of the areas that al Qaeda was involved

with; is that right? A. Q. A. Yes. But in 1991 how many members did al Qaeda have? I don't know exactly the number, but could be thousand,

445

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

could be less. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

I don't know exactly the number.

Okay, approximately? Could be around 2,000 or a little less. Around 2,000 people? Or less. Did you know every member of al Qaeda? No. And did you ever describe the structure of al Qaeda like a

pyramid? A. Could she help me?

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q.

(Witness consults with interpreter) Sometimes, yes. Okay. In fact, after you began talking to the American

authorities, you spent a lot of time with them telling them about yourself and about al Qaeda; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you met with them on many occasions? Yes. And they asked you -- withdrawn. And it was over a period

of over five years? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Correct? Yes. And they would ask you questions about who was in al

Qaeda; is that right?

446

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. Who was in the shura council? Yes. What you did? Yes. What other people did, right? Yes. And similar types of questions to what I asked you today

about businesses, finance, banks, money, that type of thing? A. Yes.

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

Right?

And when they were talking to you they were taking

down notes or they were doing reports; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Did you ever read all of the reports that were prepared

about you? A. Q. A. Q. Not all of it, maybe. It's pretty, pretty large number of reports, right? Yes. What it seems that you told American officials, at least

on one occasion, is that the security and the Jihad activities which were adopted by the Islamic movements are built in a pyramidal -- a shape of a pyramid? A. Q. A. Yes. Do you remember saying something like that? Yes.

447

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Q.

And then you said, "So if one level of activity is

discovered, the discovery is contained to that level in the organization." Now those -- you may not have said those

words, but was that the idea that you were telling them? A. I don't understand. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. So if we think of al Qaeda as a pyramid, the people at the

top knew everything that was happening in the organization; is that right? A. Correct.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

But there were lines along the pyramid, right? Yes, and the new people. The new people? Yes. The new people would not necessarily be told everything;

is that right? A. Sometime if they involved with something, they know.

Sometimes no. Q. But Mr. Al-Fadl, if they were not involved, if they had no

role in a particular mission, there would be no need to tell them? A. Q. I don't know what you mean about "mission." Okay. If al Qaeda was involved in a particular activity

and a person at the bottom of the pyramid had no participation

448

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

in that activity, that person would not have to know about the activity; is that correct? A. Official, yes, but if the people talk in a guesthouse,

maybe he know. Q. But as far as the organization was concerned, for security

purposes some activities that al Qaeda engaged in were not told to everybody on the pyramid? A. You're right, that's correct, but sometimes they talk. MR. FITZGERALD: A JUROR: THE COURT: Judge, a juror --

I need to use the bathroom. Yes, all right. We'll take a brief

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

recess. (Jury not present) THE COURT: I'm beginning to get concerned about my Are you on schedule?

not having lunch ordered. MR. HERMAN: THE COURT: five-minute recess.

I think I am, Judge. Okay. All right. We'll take a

The opinions I referred to earlier are available. (Recess)

449

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 Q.

(In open court; jury not present) THE COURT: All right, let's resume. The jurors have

ordered lunch so, Mr. Herman, you don't have to have concern. MR. HERMAN: THE COURT: Thank you, Judge. Counsel, please pick up the classified

appendix when you leave for lunch. (Jury present) THE COURT: The witness may resume the stand.

(Witness resumed) THE COURT: MR. HERMAN: Mr. Herman, you may continue. Thank you, your Honor.

Mr. Al Fadl, before we took the break I was asking you

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

questions about whether all members of the al Qaeda knew about all activities of al Qaeda? A. Q. Yes. That's the subject we're talking about. And I'm going to

use an example that you gave us last week about when you were told that you were going to have to move to Kenya, remember? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. You were living in the Sudan, right? Yes. With your wife? Yes. And you were working for al Qaeda in the Sudan, correct? Yes.

450

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

And you were earning money from al Qaeda, is that right? Yes. And you had grown up in the Sudan, right? Yes. And you are told that you're going to have to move to

Kenya? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Right? Yes. And you're not told what you're supposed to do, right? No, I, they told me. You weren't told why you were going to Kenya, were you?

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q.

No, they give me something I have to take it over there. You have to take an envelope to Kenya, right? With documents, yes. With documents. You thought you were moving to Kenya,

didn't you? A. Q. Yeah, he tell me that, yes, right. You were ready to move from Sudan with your wife to Kenya,

right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Correct. And that's what they told you? Yes. When you get to Kenya you're at the airport, right? Yes.

451

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

And then they take you to another location? Yes. And you deliver the documents? Yes. And then they said to you: You're not moving to Kenya any

more, right? A. Q. A. Q. Right. You're moving to Pakistan? That's right. And that was the first that you knew that you were weren't

going to be living in Kenya, right? A. Q. Yes. And you and your wife then flew to Pakistan, right?

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Correct. And she stayed there for a number of months, right? Correct. And you came back to the Sudan, right? Correct. And then did she join you in the Sudan? Later, yes. Later on? Yeah. So this was an example of a mission where you didn't even

know, and you were involved, but you didn't even know that you weren't going to stay in Kenya, right?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

A. Q.

Correct. Do you know the name, I'll spell it A-B-U O-M-A-R A-B-D-E-L H-A-K-E-E-M. M-U-S-A-B-A-L Do you know that

S-U-R-R-E name? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Abu Musabal, yes. The name that I said, is that his whole name? Abu Musabal Surre, yes. And was he a member of the Shura Council? Yes. And did he write any books? I don't remember his books, but he got notes about his

time during the present, Surre. Q. Do you remember a group of writings called Alta --

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Riba, yes. I'll say the word. Then I'll spell the title, Alta Ribaal

Sooriyah? A. Q. Correct. A-L-T-A R-I-B-A-A-L S-O-O-R-I-Y-A-H. Was that a book

that he wrote? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. And did he write a book called Al jama fat al elm? I'll And do you know the name Dr. F-A-D-E-L?

spell it in a second. A. Could you repeat it again?

453

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Q.

I'll try, did you know, now Dr. Fadl, did you know him to

write any books? A. Q. A. Q. I remember, yes, he write a couple books. Was there a book that they called Al Jame? Jame? I don't remember.

A book about a collection or composition seeking the Does that ring a bell?

truth? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

I don't remember, but could be, yes. Okay. Now, do you know the name last name Asmari?

Could you repeat? Last name Asmari, A-S-M-A-R-I? No. I may be mispronouncing it? MR. FITZGERALD: One moment, your Honor.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

(Pause) I am mispronouncing it. I apologize. Okay. I should

have said Azmarai. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Azmarai, yes. Okay, A-Z-M-A-R-A-I, his last name is Al Sudi, yes? We know him, yes, Azmarai. Was he on the Shura Council? I don't remember that. Okay. When you were talking to the American officials

they asked you about who was on the Shura Council, you remember that?

454

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

A. Q.

Yes. Okay. And you told them that there were thirty-one

members? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And I have it here that number 23 is Azmarai Alsui.

Does that refresh your recollection? A. Q. Q. If I told them, yeah, yes. But I don't remember now. Part of -- withdrawn. Al Qaeda had many means of

communication amongst its members, is that correct? A. Q. Committee, yes. Let me -- all right. What I'm talking about are

telephones, radios? A. Oh, okay, yes.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes.

(Witness consults with interpreter)

I see you're consulting with the interpreter.

Do you

understand my question? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. They had radios, telephones? Yes. Correct? Yes. Apparently Usama Bin Laden had a satellite phone? Yes. They had cell phones?

455

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

Q. A. Q.

A very expensive phone from Germany? Yeah, I remember he buy some equipment from Germany. And I think you told the agents that the phone might have

cost $80,000? A. Q. Yes. And that at some point when they were in the Sudan they

had radios that were, had belonged to the Sudanese Army, is that correct? A. Q. It's a group radio, but we buy it through the Army. Okay. And then you had hand-held radios as well, is that

right? A. Q. Yes. So al Qaeda had, at least when they got to the Sudan, Is

pretty sophisticated means of speaking with each other. that fair to say?

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes, officers, yes. Now, you told us last week, Mr. Al Fadl, that at some

point you were ordered to kill the former president of the Sudan; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that was Sadiq al-Mahdi? Al-Mahdi, yes. S-A-D-I-Q Correct. This was the person who had been the Prime Minister of the AL-M-A-H-D-I?

456

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

Sudan until 1989, right? A. Q. Correct. And you received an order that he should be killed by, on

behalf of al Qaeda, is that right? A. Q. National front. And was there any doubt in your mind that you were

supposed to kill him? A. Q. Well, they asked me but I didn't do it. Okay. You didn't do it because you determined that there

was no religious basis to do it, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. It's not easy that time. What? It's not easy. It wasn't easy to kill him, right? Yes.

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q.

You were supposed to poison him, right? No, they asked me and I tell them it's going to be hard. Well, they did more than ask you, didn't they, Mr. Al

Fadl? A. Q. Could you repeat the question? It was more than they just asked you. Did you want to do

it, right? A. Q. A. Yeah, it's order, but -Or, right? Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Fatwa? Yes. But you didn't do it, did you? No. And you also told the agents that there had been

discussions in 1994 some officers in Bin Laden's Islamic Army presented a proposal to blow up the American embassy in Riyadh. A. Q. Remember that?

Yeah, we have some talk about that. And the Saudi component of the Islamic Army rejected the

proposal, right? A. Q. I don't understand what you said. Okay. There was a discussion back in 1994, of blowing up

an American embassy, right? A. Q. In Riyadh City. In Riyadh City?

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. And it was discussed by individuals in al Qaeda, right? Abu Hahs Al-Masri. But the idea of blowing up an American embassy was, it was

decided that that would not be done, correct? A. I don't know why, but what I gain from the meeting they

tried to do that. Q. A. Well, they didn't tell you why, right? I don't know why.

458

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

You don't know why? Yes. But they didn't do it? No. Now, you told the agents when they asked you about Usama

Bin Laden, you told the agents that Usama Bin Laden misinterprets certain portions of the Koran to justify violent action. A. Do you remember saying that?

I don't understand what you say. (Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

No, not exactly like what you say. You spoke to the agents a lot, didn't you? Yes. And you remember everything that you said? Yes. And they were taking down notes at the time?

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes. And is it your position today that you never told the

agents that Usama Bin Laden misinterpreted certain portions of the Koran to justify violent actions? A. Well, when we talk about which scholar we follow in al Some people they Some people they say

Qaeda because there are so many scholars. follow scholar, he talk about something.

no, no this scholar, but we follow another scholar. Q. Here's my question, and if you don't understand it I'll

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

either rephrase it or ask the interpreter. A. Q. Okay. Did you tell American agents that Bin Laden misinterprets

certain portions of the Koran to justify violent action? A. Q. A. I really, I don't remember exactly like this. Does it sound like something that you said? It's similar like when we talk about who's scholar in our

group. Q. A. Q. A. Do you understand my question? Yes. Did you say that? If they wrote it, yes. MR. HERMAN: THE COURT: CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. BAUGH: That's all I have, Judge. Thank you.

Mr. Baugh on behalf of Al-'Owhali.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

Good morning, sir.

My name is David Baugh and I represent If at any time you

along with my co-counsel, Mr. Al-'Owhali.

do not understand my question feel free to talk to Ms. Laraby, all right? A. Q. Okay. Now, sir, first, you entered into a plea agreement with

the United States of America, did you not? A. Q. Yes. And you were given a copy of that plea agreement in

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

Arabic? A. Q. Yes. If you saw that agreement could you recognize it and

identify it? A. Yes. MR. BAUGH: States, your Honor? (Pause) Q. This is the agreement you brought to the United States May I approach and show the United

with the government, didn't you? A. Q. Yes. At this time we will show what has been previously shown It is Bates stamped as 3501-41. And

to the United States.

ask him, is this the agreement that you recognize? A. Q. A. Yes. That's your signature on the back page? Yes.

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

MR. BAUGH:

At this time, your Honor, we offer that

as Defendant's Exhibit 1 for today. MR. FITZGERALD: moment with Mr. Baugh? THE COURT: (Pause) So that we have this correct, how would you describe that What would you say its purpose is? Surely. Judge, may I have just a short

agreement?

461

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Q. sir? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

THE COURT: referring to? MR. BAUGH:

Two agreements.

Which one are you

I'm going to ask him right now.

This agreement right here, is an agreement to do what, Do you understand my question? Yes. All right. I think this is a finished one. It is to do what? To start talking with them. To start talking with them and that's the agreement you

signed? A. Yes. MR. FITZGERALD: receipt of that 3501-41. THE COURT: MR. BAUGH: 3501-41 is received. I'm sorry. It should be Defendant's Objection, your Honor, to the

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Exhibit A, your Honor. THE COURT: As Defendant's Exhibit A.

(Defendant's Exhibit A received in evidence) MR. BAUGH: THE COURT: MR. BAUGH: Q. A. That's right, your Honor. What is the date of that agreement? It is only in Arabic.

What is the date of that agreement? November 6, '96.

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Q.

Now, sir, when you took the bayat, you agreed to follow

whatever orders you were given by al Qaeda, am I correct? A. Q. Correct. And so that the people will understand, what is the full

name for al Qaeda? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda, the faith of what? The name is only al Qaeda. There is no further name to it? No. So you took a promise that you would, if asked, kill

people? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You would set off bombs and kill many people, if asked? Correct. And you also agreed that, if necessary, you would die? Correct. And before you made that agreement I assume you thought

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

about it? A. Q. Yes. And had you actually thought in your mind and were you

prepared -A. Q. A. Yes. -- to die, if necessary? Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

Q. A. Q.

And you were prepared to kill innocents, if necessary? Yes. Now, was this agreement based upon, do you understand the

word patriotism? A. No. MR. BAUGH: for patriotism. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Was it loyalty to a country or loyalty to a religion? Country. Loyalty to a country. And what country is that? Ms. Laraby, is there an equivalent word

I don't understand the question. (Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q.

Country. To what country do you have that loyalty. Ms. Laraby, could you translate? (Witness consults with interpreter)

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

I'm from Sudan. So you took this oath to help Sudan? No, al Qaeda. Did you take it to help Islam or to help Sudan? When I was in al Qaeda, Islam. Islam. Now, in 1996 after you had taken your bayat you

were told that al Qaeda was contemplating or thinking about

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bombing embassies, weren't you? A. Q. A. What year? In 1996, before you left the organization? Yes. What do you say? MR. BAUGH: Q. Ms. Laraby could you translate, please?

Before you left in 1996 were you told that al Qaeda was

thinking about blowing up embassies? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. I think in '94 I heard that. And you also were told is -- that you in fact, you

participated in trying to buy uranium to make a bomb? A. Q. Yes, in '94. In '94. Now, al Qaeda, am I correct, told you why this

had to be done, didn't they? A. Q. Which be done? Well, for instance, did al Qaeda tell you that the United

States was killing Iraqis with their sanction? A. Q. Yes, that, they got different fatwa. I'm sorry?

20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

They got different fatwa. Yes. No, no. The question is this. Did anyone in al

Qaeda tell you that Americans had killed over a million Iraqis with their sanction? A. Q. Yes, they talk about that. And you know that to be true, don't you?

465

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

A. Q.

Yes. All right. Did al Qaeda tell you that one of the reasons

that America was wrong was because America allowed Saddam Hussein to remain in control of Iraq? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I don't understand that. Well, is Saddam Hussein liked or disliked by al Qaeda? They don't think he's real government Muslim. Do they like him or dislike him? It's hard to say yes or no. All right. Did al Qaeda tell you that one of the reasons

America was wrong was because of its treatment of the Kurds? A. What mean Kurds? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Could you repeat the question? Of course. Could I -Did al Qaeda tell you that one of the

Ms. Laraby.

reasons America was bad was because of its treatment of the Kurds? (Witness consults with interpreter)

20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

I don't remember. Well, did you ever hear that America had promised the

Kurds certain thing after the Gulf War? A. Q. Yes. And that one of the things America promised the Kurds if

they rose up and overthrow Saddam Hussein, we'd help them, the

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Americans would help them? Ms. Laraby.

Did you hear that before.

(Witness consults with interpreter) THE COURT: MR. BAUGH: THE COURT: MR. BAUGH: A. Q. Mr. Baugh. Yes, sir. Use the microphone, sir. Yes, sir.

I don't remember that. Well, then you don't remember whether you were told that,

or you don't remember if that is true? A. Q. I don't remember is that true or not true. All right. Were you told that America was wrong

because -THE COURT: Can you be a little more specific as to

who was doing the telling here? MR. BAUGH: Okay, forgive me. Yes, sir.

As part of your involvement in al Qaeda would you as a group get together and have meetings and talk about things? A. Q. A lot. And during these meetings would members of this group talk

21 22 23 24 25

about why your acts had to be done? A. What mean acts? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. And the people in this conversation would be members of al

467

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20

Qaeda? A. Q. They have to. They have to be in order to be. And sometimes it would be

Mr. Bin Laden, and sometimes other people whose names we have spelled all day? A. Q. Yes, you're right. And some of these people would talk about the death of a

million Iraqis? A. Q. Yes, you're right. And that over one half million of those people who have

been killed since 1991 are children under the age of 5? A. Q. Yes. And that America sends troops to the Arab countries but

they don't pull them out? A. Q. A. Q. Right. In fact, there are still troops in Saudi Arabia? Yes. And that when troops went in, in Somalia there was a

concern the troops would stay there? A. Yes.

21 22 23 24 25

Q. A.

And colonize Somalia? What mean colonize? (Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q.

Occupation, maybe. What?

468

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 A. Q. Q.

THE INTERPRETER:

Occupation. Thank you.

That they occupy the country.

Sir, I want to tell you if I use the incorrect term, you feel free to correct me, okay? A. Q. Okay. Thank you. In these discussions would they talk about how America was controlling certain Arab governments? A. Q. you? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you know that all of those things are true, don't you? Yes. Did they tell you in these meetings that you couldn't You're right. Now, these are things that Bin Laden and other people told

trust America because they always break their treaties? Translation, please. (Witness consults with interpreter) They say that, yes. All right. And did they tell you that historically

westerners always break their treaties with Arab countries?

22 23 24 25 A. Q.

(Witness consults with interpreter) Yes, they say that. Did they talk about the great betrayal of 1916? (Witness consults with interpreter)

469

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

A. Q.

What is that? The Sykes Pocoot agreement. Did they tell you about that?

(Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. A. Q. No, I don't know. I don't remember.

What about the Balfour Accord? Yes. The Kissinger promise? (Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q.

I don't remember. In fact, did you ever hear about a tape recording of

Madeline Albright stating that she knew the United States had killed a half million children in Iraq? A. Q. No. Now, during the time appeared, we're talking about 1991 to

1996, America was continuing to bomb Iraq, weren't they? A. Q. Yes. And you as a Muslim never knew what day America was going

to bomb Iraqis and kill them, am I correct? A. Q. Could you repeat? You never knew what days America was going to kill

Americans -- strike that.

22 23 24 25 Q.

MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: MR. BAUGH:

Objection.

Relevance grounds.

Overruled. Thank you.

You never knew when the Americans were going to bomb

470

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

Iraqis and kill them, did you? A. Q. I don't know. Okay. It could have been the next day and you wouldn't

have known it? A. Q. I don't know. All right. And was one of the reasons for al Qaeda hating

Americans to stop that bombing? A. Q. Yes, they talk about that. And was it reasonable to you -Translation, please. A. Q. I understand reasonable. Oh, forgive me. Was it reasonable for you to believe

that? A. Q. A. Q. A. It was substantiated. I'm sorry. I could not understand you?

I understand what you say, but with some explaining. Explain please, go ahead. Because some Muslims they see American troops, they don't The government -Could you

go in the Gulf area by themselves. Q.

Slow down just a little bit, just a little bit.

start over again? A. Some people in other group they say the American troops

23 24 25

they don't go to Gulf area by themself.

The Saudi government,

the Kuwait government, they bring them to Gulf area to stop Iraq because Iraqi tried to take all the Arab countries.

471

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

Q.

All right.

And was it reasonable for you to believe that

the only way to stop the Americans from killing Iraqis was to get them out of Saudi Arabia? A. Q. A. Q. A. Well, the al Qaeda people they talk about that. Al Qaeda did. No. You didn't believe that? It was explained, you know, it's hard for group, you know, No, no. Did you believe that?

but those Americans they have agreement with Saudi government and Kuwait and Gulf countries. Q. But am I correct, sir, that it was your position

personally and al Qaeda's position that if enough Americans were killed they would stop bombing Iraq? A. Well, al Qaeda believe, yes, they believe that. MR. BAUGH: okay. A. Q. If he stands up you have to be quiet,

That's one of the rules.

The al Qaeda people, yeah, they believed that. Now, would you agree -- well, first, there's a difference

between Arabs and Muslims, right? A. Q. A. Right. All Arabs are not Muslims? You're right.

23 24 25

Q. A. Q.

And all Muslims are not Arabs? We got Arab Jews, we got Arab Christian. We have Arab --

You have Philippino Muslims and Pakistan Muslims?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

A. Q.

You're right. Now, am I correct that to understand al Qaeda you must

understand Islam? A. Q. A. Q. They teach you about Islam. And you've lived in the United States, haven't you? Yes. And based on your experience Americans don't know a lot

about Islam, do they? A. It's hard to say that because a lot, some Americans they

know very much Islam. Q. Well, and believe me I mean no disrespect to -- you are

Muslim, right? A. Q. Yeah, but it's thousand of mosque in United States. I understand. And I'm going to ask you for some

explanations about Islam as you understand them, all right? A. Q. Okay. And do you understand that when I ask you these questions

I don't mean to offend you, because I'm a Baptist from Virginia, and this is all knew to me. A. All right. You know I be honest with you and I try my

best to give you honest answer. Q. But am I correct that Islam is very important to

understanding al Qaeda?

24 25

A.

If you be member, yes, you have to be know about Islam,

but you focus on jihad.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q.

We're going to talk about jihad in just a moment. They going to teach you about jihad there. What's the last word? They going to teach you, they focus on jihad. Now, first a couple of things about Islam that I just In Islam yo'all believe in Adam and Eve, don't you?

learned. A. Q. Adam?

Adam and Eve, the first man? (Witness consults with interpreter)?

A. Q.

The first prophet, yes. And you believe that there are prophets who speak, who

have been spoken to by God, Allah? A. Q. Yes. And when you say Allah, you say praise be unto his name

Allah? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And if I don't say that, you won't be offended, will you? I don't understand what you -Okay. If I don't say Allah, praise be unto his name, is

that disrespect on my part? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. No. Okay. And you understand I'm not asking you to be a

24 25

religious expert.

I just want to know your views or your

understanding, all right?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. Okay. Yes. And you were taught that there were a hundred twenty some Now, you took instruction in Islam, am I correct?

thousand prophets before Mohammed? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. We have in all the Koran twenty-five. Well, there are? Twenty-five only in Holy Koran. Mentioned? Our book, yes. But other we don't know the names.

And some of those profits include Moses? Yes. Abraham? Yes. Jesus? Yes. Noah? Yes. And as to Jesus you believe that Jesus was crucified? What is that? (Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q.

No, we don't believe that. Well, you believe he was -- strike that. You believe that he did not die on the cross?

25

A.

We believe when the Jews tried to kill him in Jerusalem

475

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

that God take him up. Q. A. That God took him to Paradise? He bring somebody look like Jesus and the Jews kill the

wrong person. Q. And you believe in the virgin birth of Jesus? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes, is special gift from God to the world. Now, and also in Islam suicide is forbidden, it is your

understanding? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Because the human body belongs to God?

Yes, but some scholar they say they make fatwa, it's okay. If they make fatwa. But if they make fatwa it's not

suicide any more, it's now martyrdom? A. Q. If they make fatwa that means it's okay. Okay. Now, and I'm going to be very brief and broad with

this, but Islam is based on certain principles that its members are supposed to do? A. Q. Five. Five. The same number of points on the star, right, the

Five Pillars of Islam? A. Q. Yes, you have to. We'll go over those. The first one is must bear witness,

all right?

25

(Witness consults with interpreter)

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Q. A. Q.

Shahada? Yes. That means you must tell yourself that you are going to be

Muslim? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And recognize Allah? Yes. The second one is prayer, am I correct? (Witness consults with interpreter) Q. A. Q. A. Q. sun? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And those prayers are done normally as individuals? With a group. Well, the only group prayer that is required is Friday Shala? Yes, you're right. And you are supposed to pray at least five times a day? Yes. And those five times are determined by the position of the

afternoon, am I correct? A. Q. A. No, if you can, but the best join group. You normally you pray with your group? No, if you can, you do your best to join people pray with

people.

477

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Q.

You do your best to be with other people, but if you can't

you pray by yourself? A. Q. Right. And to not pray five times a day, is the word sin, Shalam? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. No, because some Muslim you don't, you don't have

education about Islam, so you don't know how Shalam invoke. They need somebody invoke, but you can't say haram to them. Q. But once they learn, once they are taught about Shala,

prayer, then it is haram not to pray in accordance with the dictates of Allah? A. If somebody scholar he tells them, and he gives them

kalil, explanation about Shala and how invoke, yes, you right. Q. And also, before I go to the rest of them, these

principles were actually given to Mohammed by Allah, am I correct? A. Q. Yes. And Mohammed wrote them down on pieces of paper and pieces

of bone so he could remember them? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Oh, Mohammed he can't write. Somebody wrote them for him? Not him. And those writings are what make up the Koran? Yes. Now, the third principle is Zaka? Somebody wrote it.

478

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A.

Zaka. Which is giving to the poor? Yes, it's similar like that. Like that? Every year you take some of two or five percent for your

money every year. Q. And this is also given to Islam from Mohammed and from

Allah? A. Yes, for poor people, for jihad, for mosque, for like

that. Q. And failure to do that is a sin? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. A. Q. Yes. The fourth one is the principle is fasting? Yes. Which requires that during the ninth lunar month --

believe me I learned this weekend -- the ninth lunar month all true Muslims do not eat or take in water during the daylight hours? A. Q. Yes, sunrise, before sunrise until sunset. And to, and if you know that it is wrong and you do eat

during those hours, that is a sin? A. Yeah, but if you look at you say you sick, you can't do

it, that's different. Q. That's right. In Islam there are, if you're sick or if

479

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

you're pregnant, then you don't have to fast? A. Q. A. Q. Or if the woman nurse. If the woman is nursing. Yes. And the last principle is Hajj which is to visit Mecca

once in your life? A. Q. You're right, if you have enough money. If you have the money. And if you don't have enough

money? A. Q. A. Q. No problem. God forgives you? Yes. And nowadays it's not that expensive, but there was a time

when it could take months to take hajj? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yeah, you right. Or even years? Yes. To walk to Mecca? You're right. And another principal, if not one of the five though, is

jihad? A. Q. You right. Now, these other five principles if someone knows of these

principles and they refuse to obey them that is a sin, right? A. Yes.

480

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Q.

Now, with jihad am I correct that, and correct me if I'm

wrong -A. Q. Okay. -- that under jihad, jihad is a duty of Muslims to protect

other Muslims from invasion? A. Q. You're right. And if you as a practicing Muslim feel that an invader is

invading a Muslim country, then you have a personal duty to aid them? A. Q. If I can answer your question if I -Sure. You want it translated. Ms. Laraby, would you like me to repeat it? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. You're right, you're right. And also very important distinction in Islam, unlike we

Christians, you don't have priests and Popes or people who are -- do you understand? (Witness consults with interpreter) Q. A. Q. You have imams? You're right. But imam, he's just someone who knows more about the

religion than you? A. Q. A. Yeah, he's a scholar. He's a what? A scholar.

481

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q.

A scholar. Yes. But he doesn't -- okay. And the purpose, the most

important part of a Muslim's life is to follow Islam, the word of God? A. Q. You're right. Not to follow a man or a priest but to follow Islam,

right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Now, if you believe, you as an individual, believe

that a Muslim country is being invaded by a dictator are you supposed to engage in jihad? A. Q. A. Yes, if the scholar in that country, the -The scholar? They all speak together and they make fatwa, the people

listen to them. Q. And if you believe that that fatwa is Islamically correct

then you have a duty to engage in jihad? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that duty is the same as your duty to pray? You're right. And is the same as your duty to make hajj or make the trip

to Mecca? A. Q. You're right. Are you familiar with Christianity?

482

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

A little bit. It's like Christians are forbidden to steal, all right?

So this is like, this would be like stealing if you didn't engage in jihad, if you believed it was necessary? You have to say yes or no or the court reporter gets really mad. A. Q. Yes. Now, as you sit here today you know that when Bin Laden

told you that America had killed over a million Iraqis since 1991 that is a true statement? MR. FITZGERALD: MR. BAUGH: I can rephrase it. THE COURT: element. MR. BAUGH: Q. Okay. I'm sorry. I have problems also with the time You know that, don't you?

Objection to form.

I believe I already laid the predicate.

Sir, prior to 1996, you already told us that you were told

that America was responsible directly for the death of a million Iraqis, right? A. Q. A. Before '96? Before 1996. I don't remember the numbers but they say it's a war it's

going on between Iraq an United States. Q. Before 1996, and there was a fatwa issued, Bin Laden told

you that America had killed over a million Iraqis, didn't he?

483

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A.

What I remember they say, yes, thousand of people they

died over there. Q. A. Q. Do you recollect the number one million? I really don't remember. Do you recollect the term one half million children under

the age of 5? A. Q. A. Q. What I remember they say thousand, thousand of children. Okay. Yes. Okay. And you have also found -- Ms. Laraby, And that is true, right?

verification. You have found verification -(Witness consults with interpreter): MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: question. MR. BAUGH: Q. I will. You have found Objection as to form.

I can't tell until there is more of the

Don't answer the question yet.

verification from your own studies other than what al Qaeda told you? Don't answer it. MR. FITZGERALD: Q. A. Q. No objection? Object to form. Yes.

Did you find verification from other studies on your own? Yes. Okay. And if that is true and you believe it to be true,

484

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

then do you have a duty under jihad to try and stop that killing? A. If you let me explain. MR. FITZGERALD: I object to the form, your Honor, if

it's true and you believe it to be true. MR. BAUGH: A. Q. A. Rephrase.

If you let me explain. Please. Well, what I believe is going on in Gulf area is it's more

political because what Saddam did against Kuwait people also he kill a lot of people, they innocent. Q. A. Yes. And when Saudi government and the Gulf area government

Kuwait and Bahrain they bring United States and French and England to help them against Saddam, so it's hard to say it's religion duty to do that. This is for what I believe. Maybe

other scholars they believe something different.

Because we

don't know what Sudam he going to do if nobody stop. Q. And that's important because in Islam religious

responsibility is personal responsibility, isn't it? A. You're right, but because Sudam he believe that he don't He got something called Bat.

believe most of Islam. Q. A. Q.

Bat is a political party? Yes, you right. I understand there is much more to Islam, and I'm not

485

going to get into all of it.

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Bat is not part of Islam. Bat is not Islam? Yes. And if you let me explain more?

Of course. I remember even Bin Laden by himself -Bin Laden himself yes? In '88 he make lecture against Saddam. He say Saddam is a

Bat and Saddam one day he going to take all of Gulf area and he give that lecture and a lot of people listen to that lecture. Q. Now, I want to, correct me if I'm wrong, in paraphrasing

what you just said. You said that Bin Laden spoke against Saddam Hussein? A. Q. A. Q. A. You're right. He has spoken against him for years? I remember that in '88. In 1988? Yes, he make lecture in Pakistan and everybody listen to

that lecture. (Continued on next page)

486

Q.

And that was before Saddam Hussein sent his troops into

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Kuwait? A. Q. Correct. Now, and those beliefs that we've spoken about here are

the beliefs that caused you to take a bayat? (Witness consults with interpreter) MR. FITZGERALD: beliefs? MR. BAUGH: rephrase. A. Q. Okay. Your belief in the death of thousands of Iraqis, your Your Honor, I will rephrase. I will Objection to form. As to which

belief that America was sending troops to occupy Arab countries, your belief that many children were dying, those were the reasons you took a bayat? MR. FITZGERALD: reason at a time, Judge. THE COURT: BY MR. BAUGH: Q. A. Q. Were those some of the reasons? No, I really, I'm not understand what you try to tell me. Tell me this. What reasons prompted you to take the Overruled. Just an objection to form. One

bayat? A. Q. With al Qaeda group? Yes. What did al Qaeda want to do that caused you to take

487

1 2

a bayat and offer up your life? A. They want to focus on Jihad.

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A.

And Jihad is defending Muslims? No, Jihad means to bring Islam back, to bring government

Muslim. Q. Isn't it true, sir, that Jihad can only be in defense in I mean, there are other reasons; that's

the cause of Allah? one of them? A.

Jihad is so many different roles.

So one of the Jihad to

make Jihad, being make the whole country Muslim. Q. Let me ask you, is one of the reasons the defense of the

cause of Allah, not for conflict? A. Q. A. Q. That's one of the Jihad. Is another reason to restore peace and freedom of worship? That's part of it. Is another reason for freedom from tyranny? You know

tyranny? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. Is another reason when led by a spiritual leader to

accomplish these goals? (Witness consults with interpreter) THE INTERPRETER: Q. Can you please repeat?

Is another of these reasons when led by a spiritual leader

to accomplish these goals?

488

1 2

A. Q.

Khalifa. Is that correct?

3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A.

Yes. MR. BAUGH: And you want to spell khalifa. K-H-A-L-I-F-A.

THE INTERPRETER: MR. BAUGH: Q.

Thank you.

Is it also true with Jihad that Jihad should only be

fought until the enemy lays down his arms? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. Yes.

And is it also true that, if possible, women, children,

old, sick are not to be harmed? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. You're right. And trees and crops are not to be damaged? THE INTERPRETER: Q. Pardon me?

Trees and crops are not to be damaged? THE INTERPRETER: MR. BAUGH: Trees. Treason?

(Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. But again, this is your understanding, right? Yes, this is what Islam. You do not consider yourself to be an Islamic scholar? No, I'm not scholar.

489

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Q. A. Q.

Do you consider yourself to be an imam? No. And there are imams in the United States and all over the

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

world? A. Q. Yeah, I don't rise to imam. Of course. Is it also correct that your understanding, Jihad cannot be used for a war of aggression or ambition? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. I don't understand. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. Yes. You cannot use Jihad to oppress other people; is that

correct? A. Q. Yes. And you cannot use Jihad to force other people to accept

Islam who do not want to accept Islam? A. Q. Yes. That's correct. Now, do you still believe in those things personally? A. Q. Yes. Since you became -- strike that. Would you prefer to

consider yourself an informant, a snitch, a turncoat, what? What do you prefer to use? MR. FITZGERALD: Objection.

490

1 2 3

THE COURT: MR. BAUGH: THE COURT:

Sustained. I'm sorry? Sustained.

4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Q. A. Q. Q.

MR. BAUGH:

I'm sorry.

Which term, informant -(Witness consults with interpreter) Are you offended by "informant"? Like I have to do that? If I call you an informant, a person who gives

information, is that -- does that term offend you? (Witness consults with interpreter) About Islam? Yes. Yes. All right. Well, when you started aiding the government,

the United States of America, against al Qaeda, what did you call that as being, an informant? (Witness consults with interpreter) Yes, I give them information, you're right. Okay. Since that time has the Witness Protection Program

paid you $794,200.49? A. Q. Could you repeat it? Has the Witness Protection Program since 1999 paid you

$794,200.49, if you know? Don't answer yet.

491

1 2 3 4

MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: BY MR. BAUGH: Q.

Objection to form, Judge.

Overruled.

Have they paid you that much money?

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A.

They pay my rent and they give me money for food and my

bills. Q. Yes, but all that money combined, has it come to

approximately $794,200.49? A. Q. A. I didn't count it. Since 1999? I never count it. Every month they give me money for my

rent, my house, and some money for food and my bills, that's it. Q. A. Q. A. Additionally, since 1997 has the FBI paid you $151,047.02? No. They have not paid you that much, or you don't know? Where I live, the rent, and they buy food for me, and when

I go to store they go with me to buy some stuff for me. Q. Would you disagree if hypothetically the FBI said they

paid you since 1997 $15,047.2? Don't answer. MR. FITZGERALD: THE COURT: BY MR. BAUGH: Q. I'm sorry, not paid direct, that's right. Yes. Objection to form, "paid you."

492

1 2 3 4

THE COURT: want ask him? MR. BAUGH: THE COURT:

Cost to the FBI of?

Is that what you

Excuse me, your Honor? Would you disagree with the estimate of

5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

the cost. MR. BAUGH: BY MR. BAUGH: Q. Would you disagree with the FBI's cost to sustain you of All right.

being approximately $151,000? A. I really, I didn't count it, but if they say that, they're

right. Q. All right. If an Arab -- or, if a Muslim, forgive me --

if a Muslim commits a sin, is it your understanding that that can prevent him from going to paradise? (Witness consults with interpreter) Q. A. Q. I can rephrase. (Through the interpreter) Sins can differ. I can rephrase. Is it a bad thing to refuse to live by the principles of Islam? A. Q. You're right. And is Jihad one of the principles under which you are

supposed to live? A. Q. Jihad, it's different kind. But is it a principle?

493

1 2 3 4 5

A.

Yeah, but it's different kind.

Some Jihad, you don't have

to do it. Q. Right, but -- okay. MR. BAUGH: Honor? May I have just one moment, please, your

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q.

THE COURT: (Pause) BY MR. BAUGH: Q.

Yes.

Sir, during the time that you were with al Qaeda, did al

Qaeda ever run out of young people or people who were willing to die -A. Q. What mean --- for the faith? (Witness consults with interpreter) Could you repeat the question? Did the organization, the base, ever run out of people who

were willing to die for Islam? A. Q. They don't have enough people? Do they have enough people to die or do they have more

than enough people to die? A. Q. Yeah, we have a lot of membership. No, no, not membership. Are there lots of people who are

willing to die? A. Q. Yes. Okay. So it isn't hard to find recruits who are willing

494

1 2 3 4 5

to give their lives? A. You're right. MR. BAUGH: THE COURT: Thank you. Pass the witness.

The question is whether we take a break

or whether we should continue.

6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recess.

MR. STERN:

If we take a ten-minute break, Judge, I

should still finish by 1:00. THE COURT: Yes. All right. We'll take a ten-minute

(Jury not present) THE COURT: MR. RICCO: THE COURT: MR. RICCO: We'll take a ten-minute morning recess. Your Honor, before we take a recess. Yes. During the cross-examination of the

witness, there were several references made to Islamic law. THE COURT: MR. RICCO: Yes. And I understand that many of the

questions were phrased in the context of this witness's belief. THE COURT: MR. RICCO: Yes, all of them were. But the record should be clear that this Many of the references that this

is not expert testimony.

witness testified to are incorrect. THE COURT: Well, there was a big preamble, a very

explicit preamble to the question that, "I'm going to ask you

495

1 2 3 4 5 6

certain questions with respect to your understanding of Islam," and the witness has disclaimed being an expert on Islamic law. MR. RICCO: That's fine, your Honor, as long as we're

clear about that, because there were several points that were made here on this witness's beliefs.

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 recess.

THE COURT:

I'm not clear whether you are asking for

an instruction to the jury or just inquiring whether the record is clear. MR. RICCO: I was going to ask for an instruction,

but given Mr. Baugh's preamble, I don't think an instruction is necessary at this time. THE COURT: Very well. We'll take a ten-minute

(Recess) THE COURT: I think we're about ready to resume. If

everybody would be seated, please. (Jury present) BY MR. STERN: Q. Good afternoon, Mr. Al-Fadl. I'm David Stern, I'm one of

Khalfan Mohamed's attorneys. beginning with 1987 or '88.

I want to ask you some questions

You were living in the United States at that time, were you not? A. Yes.

496

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Q.

And you were attending a mosque called the Farouq Mosque;

is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, in Brooklyn. Where in Brooklyn was that? I don't remember the street now. Was it on Atlantic Avenue?

7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

I really don't remember. All right. Do you remember who the imam was of that

mosque? A. Q. A. Q. A. I don't remember. Do you remember someone named Mustafa Shalabi? Yes. Who was that? He helps the mosque and at that time he tried, got

donation to Afghanistan people. Q. When you were attending that mosque, there was talk about

what was going on in Afghanistan, wasn't there? A. Q. Yes, they got office over there. And you were told during the time you were attending that

mosque that one of the things a good Muslim should do is go to Afghanistan, protect his brothers there, correct? A. Q. You're right. And you yourself are not an Islamic scholar, that's fair

to say, isn't it? A. I'm not scholar.

497

1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

And you yourself had never been to Afghanistan, right? I been in Afghanistan. At that time, in 1987 or '88, had you been to Afghanistan? Yes. When had you gone to Afghanistan before then? During '88. Okay. My question is before '88 had you been to

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Afghanistan? A. Q. No. No.

So what you knew about what was going on in Afghanistan

was based on what people told you at the mosque and other places you were with Muslims, correct? A. Q. They help Muslim, yes. That's where you learned about what was going on in

Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes. And based on what you were told there, what you learned

there, you made a decision the appropriate thing for you to do was to travel to Afghanistan, right? A. Q. Yes. And you were traveling to Afghanistan to engage in a

Jihad, correct? A. Q. A. Yes. And that Jihad was to fight enemies of Islam, right? Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7

Q.

Those enemies were the Soviet Union back then, weren't

they? A. Q. You're right. And so after you made that decision, you began what was a

fairly long trip to Peshawar, Pakistan, right? A. Q. Yes, we went to Peshawar. In Peshawar you were getting training that would help you

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

fight the Jihad against the Soviet Union? A. Q. Yes. And that training was a camp, and you'll pardon me if I

pronounce this wrong, Khalid Ibn Walid; is that the name of the camp? A. Q. Correct. At that camp there would be training on how to use weapons

of one sort or another, right? A. Q. Yes. They gave you training on how to use explosives of one

sort or another? A. Q. A. Q. I don't remember explosives in that camp. Do you remember them giving you training -Regular weapons. Okay. But do you also remember them giving you training

in religion, Islamic religion? A. Q. Yes. And part of that training was explaining to you why this

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

battle, this war taking place in Afghanistan was justified, correct? A. Q. Yes. And while you were in that camp, part of what you were

supposed to do as a good Muslim was to follow orders, right? A. Q. Yes, to make Jihad. And so when people higher up told you what to do at the

camp, you would do it, right?

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes. If people more experienced in Jihad than you told you what

to do, you would do it, right? A. Q. Yes. You yourself, before you got this training, had no

personal knowledge of how to behave there, did you? A. Q. I don't understand it. Before you got to this camp and received the training, you

had no knowledge of how to use these weapons or what to do in the battle? A. Q. A. Q. You're right, yes. In Pakistan, right? Yes. So when you would learn those things, you would learn them

in reliance on people above you, correct? A. Q. Yes, the people who got experience about training in that. Right. After your training at this camp, you were sent to

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8

what they call a guesthouse, weren't you? A. Q. Yeah, Areen. Areen was the name of the guesthouse and that was in

Afghanistan, was it not? A. Q. Yes, Pakhtia State. So, according to you, at that point you had traveled from

Peshawar into Afghanistan to this guesthouse, right? A. Peshawar to Khalid camp to Areen camp, over Areen

9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

guesthouse. Q. But that guesthouse was the final step before you would go

to the front lines of the war in Afghanistan, right? A. Q. Yes, it's before the front line, you're right. And at the Areen guesthouse you received more training and

more information, didn't you? A. Q. Yes, we help them over there. And among the things you received were lectures from

people more knowledgeable than you, isn't that fair to say? A. Q. Yes. And one of the people you heard lecture, this was back in

1988, was someone named Abu Hajer al Iraqi, correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Correct. You know that that person has another name, don't you? Not at that time. I'm asking you what you know now. Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Q. A. Q.

And what is that other name? Mamdouh Mahmud Salim. From now on when I refer to Mamdouh Mahmud Salim or

Mr. Salim, we'll both know who we're talking about, right? A. Q. Yes. Now, Mr. Salim back in 1988 was already one of those

higher people to whom you listened, wasn't he? A. Q. Yes. He was a person with experience in Jihad?

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

He's scholar. Pardon? He's a scholar. He's a scholar? Yes. But he also had himself fought in Afghanistan, hadn't he? You're right. You knew from what people told you that he was a valorous

warrior in Afghanistan, didn't you? A. Q. A. Q. What mean "valorous warrior"? He was a good fighter? Yes. In addition to being a good fighter, he had expertise in

communications, didn't he? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. I think he studied that.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

Q. A. Q.

Studied communications? Electronic communications, yes. So he was an expert in that, wasn't he? (Witness confers with interpreter)

A. Q. A. Q. A.

Yes. And he was also an expert in the Koran, was he not? He memorize it. They call a Koran? Memorize it.

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q.

What do they call that? Qaricept. Qaricept, right. While you were there at Areen

guesthouse, you heard Mr. Salim lecture on Jihad, didn't you? A. Q. Yes. And you heard him talk about something called a Jihad

fardh al ein, didn't you? A. Q. Yes. Now, you talked the other day when the government was

questioning you about there being two different kinds of Jihad, didn't you? A. Q. Correct. One of those you could join in if you chose to, but you

didn't have to? A. Q. You're right. But this kind that we're talking about now, Jihad fardh al

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

ein, was mandatory, that is, you must join or you would not be a good Muslim? A. Q. You're right. And that's the kind of battle that they were fighting in

Afghanistan, wasn't it? A. Q. Yes. That's why he was telling you that, to convince you and

the other people listening that they were doing the right thing as a Muslim, right? A. Yes.

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

And it was their obligation to go and do it as best as

they possibly could? A. Q. A. Q. You're right. That wasn't the last time you saw Mr. Salim, was it? No. As a matter of fact, he was a person who was involved with

al Qaeda for as long as you were involved in al Qaeda, wasn't he? A. Q. Yes. And even when you left al Qaeda to come and cooperate with

the United States Government, he was still involved with al Qaeda as far as you knew, wasn't he? A. Q. Yes. After you were at the Areen guesthouse, you actually went

to Afghanistan and fought on the front there, right?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Yes. You went to a place I think you said was called Jaji? Yes, Jaji. And you were there a few months, right? It could be around two months or a little less. And after you were done fighting there, where did you go? We went back to Peshawar to Bail al Ansar or Ansar

guesthouse. Q. While you were fighting in Afghanistan, you met many, many

people, didn't you?

11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

A lot. And you formed bonds with those people? What mean "bonds"? Bonds means you became close with them. Yes, some of them. And later on in your career with al Qaeda, people would

ask you, do you know this brother from Afghanistan? A. Q. Yes. And if you would vouch for that person, if you would say

yes, I know that person -A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. -- then they would believe in that person, right? Yes. That was one of the roles that you played for al Qaeda? Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Q.

Because it was thought that if you fought in Afghanistan,

if you cared enough to fight in Afghanistan, then you were trustworthy, right? A. Q. Yes. And then you would accept all of the things that al Qaeda

said you should accept, right? A. Q. A. Q. The rule, yes. Now, you went to a camp in Khost, isn't that right? Yes, Khost area. And there again, they talked to you, various people talked

to you about religious issues, didn't they?

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes, in Farouq camp. And one of the things they talked to you about was

something I think you referred to as a khalifa, right? A. Q. Khalifa. Al khalifa, yes.

And "khalifa" means that all of the Muslim world should be

united into a single -- I'm going to use the word country, but it really means a single entity? A. Q. A. Q. You're right. And you believed that, didn't you? Yes. You believed, for example, that whatever country you were

from, in your case, the Sudan, wasn't as important as the unity Muslims should have for one another? A. I don't understand that.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Well, Sudan is a nation, right? Yes, it's country. Egypt is another nation? Another country, yes. Somalia is another country? Yes. But when you talk about khalifa, what you say is all

Muslims should be joined together? A. Q. A. You're right, under one man. Under one man, a khalifa? Yes.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

And that was one of the goals of al Qaeda, wasn't it? Yes. And it was a goal you accepted? Yes. So you believed that countries that wouldn't accept that

idea were in the wrong, didn't you? A. Q. Could you repeat? Yes. (Witness consults with interpreter) A. With a little explain more. You right, but with a little

explanation. Q. Okay. Well, I'll ask you if I want the explanation, but

that's the general idea, isn't it? A. Not exactly, but you're right.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Q.

Okay.

At some point the Soviet Union was defeated in

Afghanistan, were they not? A. Q. Yes. And that was a tremendous victory for Muslims around the

world? A. Q. Yes. But after that victory there were a number of men who for

years had been fighting in Afghanistan and had no cause left to fight, isn't that right? A. Q. A. Yes. Those were called the mujahideen? Yes.

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

And those people, those mujahideen, had been fighting for

so long that that was the only thing they really knew how to do, wasn't it? A. Q. You're right. So it was at that time, at the end of the war in

Afghanistan, that Bin Laden decided to start al Qaeda? A. Q. Before him, another people. But it was around the time the war ended in Afghanistan,

wasn't it? A. Q. Yes. And he began that in part to work towards this khalifa,

correct? A. Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12

Q.

Now, you were one of the very first people involved with

Bin Laden, weren't you? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You were or were not? No, I work with him, yes, in the beginning. But there were other people before you who decided to

start al Qaeda? A. Q. You're right. It was when they first began to sign people up, you were

one of the first three people to sign up? A. I'm the third one in Farouq camp, but I don't know if some

people to sign in other locations before me or after me.

13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

Well, either way, it was very early in the existence of al

Qaeda -A. Q. A. Q. You're right. -- that you signed up, wasn't it? Yes. Yes.

So you're familiar with the history of al Qaeda from very

near the time it began until the time you left to come and cooperate with the United States Government, right? A. Q. Yes. Yes.

Now, since the time you fought for those two or three

months in Afghanistan, have you been involved in using guns against anyone? A. Could you repeat the question?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Q.

Yes.

You fought in Afghanistan for a few months, right?

Didn't you? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. When I went, when I was in Afghanistan. When you were on the front in Afghanistan in Jaji? Yes. Did you use guns there? Small gun? Yes. No. Did you use rifles there? We use big weapons. Big weapons? Yes.

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

That you were firing at people to kill them? Yes. Trying to kill your enemies? Yes. Since that time when you were done fighting in Jaji, you

left and you went to Khost and eventually you joined al Qaeda. Since that time when you used those weapons in Jaji have you ever fired a weapon, a gun, a cannon, any kind of weapon in at any other people? A. Q. A. No, only training. Pardon? Training.

510

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13

Q.

Only training, but you've never actually fired a gun at

anybody? A. Q. A. Q. No. You began to move up in al Qaeda, didn't you? Yes. Now, you remember that Mr. Herman asked you about al Qaeda

having a structure like a pyramid; you remember him asking you that? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And you agreed it was structured like that, right? Yes. And you know what he meant by that, don't you? Yes.

14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A.

At the very tip of the pyramid, who would be there? Bin Laden. Who would be right below Bin Laden? Different committee, regular committee, financial

committee and the media committee and the fatwah committee. Q. And when you talk about the people altogether, what do you

call them? A. Q. A. Q. A. We got Bin Laden, shura council and the committees. Okay. Yes. So it's Bin Laden at the very top? Shura council.

Then committees? Yes.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

Q.

But below those committees, there are many people involved

in al Qaeda, aren't there? A. Q. Yes, lots of. Yes, you're right.

There are people who work in al Qaeda factories, for

example, right? A. Q. Yes. There are people who worked in the tannery you mentioned

where they tan cowhides? A. Q. You're right. There are people who worked in the oil factories, which

you were familiar with? A. Q. You're right. And those people weren't involved in making the major

decisions about al Qaeda, were they?

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

A.

I -(Witness consults with interpreter)

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. They were not? Yes. Maybe I'm asking the question poorly. Were those people involved in making the big

decisions about what al Qaeda was going to do? A. Q. Which people? The penal working in the tannery, working in the oil

factories, things like that?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14

A.

The people move.

Sometime you are in regular committee,

you move to financial committee, you move to business, you move to fatwah. Q. Okay. I'm not asking about the people in any of the In the oil factories, someone had to take sesame

committees.

seeds and crush them to get oil out of them, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And someone ran a machine that did that? Yes. That person wasn't on the fatwah committee, were they? Was what? The person who was crushing the oil seeds in the factory,

was he or she on the fatwah committee? A. It could be before he was. It's hard to say now.

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

How about someone driving a truck, delivering that oil,

were they on the fatwah committee? A. Q. A. It's hard to say yes or no. Why don't you tell me. Because if you don't specific about person, his name, it

could be easy for me to answer. Q. Okay. Well, you tell me the name of the person on the

shura committee who was driving a truck, delivering sesame oil. A. Q. And he's a shura council? Yes. Which one of the people do you know of Banshiri, you

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15

name someone whose job was delivering oil and they were on the shura. A. It's -- if he's in driving truck and he's a shura council,

yes, if the shura council got meeting, they call him and they tell him shura's got a meeting, come talk, you come. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I'm asking you which guy that is. Banshiri or Abu Hafs. So Banshiri drove a truck delivering oil? No, Banshiri, he worked in the military committee. On the military committee. Yes. That was his job, right? He's head of the military committee, right. So tell me which member of the shura council had a job,

for example, driving a truck or taking cowhides and making

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

them -A. Qaricept, Egyptian, he work with financial, he been

selling for al Qaeda people, he run some companies and he's in shura council. Q. A. Q. And he runs companies? Yes. Okay. I'm asking about the people who work in that

company sweeping the floors, polishing the floors, are any of those people on the shura council? A. I don't remember.

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Q. A. Q.

Well, if you remember one of them, tell me, okay? Okay. Now, you know that Salim was part of the shura council,

don't you? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Salim was in charge of communications equipment, right? Yes. And Salim was one of the people on this shura council who

helped make -A. Q. A. Q. Fatwah. Pardon? Fatwah council. And he helped make the important decisions that guided al

Qaeda, didn't he? A. Yes.

16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

Now, there came a time, did there not, when al Qaeda was

making a decision whether or not they should move from Afghanistan to Sudan? A. Q. Yes. And one of the people who went to the Sudan to help make

that decision was Salim, right? A. Q. Yes, he was discovered. And it's fair to say, is it not, that Salim was one of Bin

Laden's favorites? A. He's best friend.

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Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Right? Yes. Very close with him? Yes. And he would speak at Bin Laden's side sometimes, right? Speak? Speak next to Bin Laden. Bin Laden would speak and then

Mr. Salim would speak? A. Q. Sometimes. And when he had something to say, because he was so

high-ranking in al Qaeda, Bin Laden would listen to him, wouldn't he? A. Q. A. Q. Sometimes, yes. So Salim, as far as you know, goes to the Sudan, right? Yes. And he's going to check to see if that's a good place for

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

al Qaeda to move to? A. Q. You're right. Before he went, he didn't have a good feeling about the

Sudan, did he? A. Q. A. Q. A. I don't remember. Do you remember he didn't really trust the NIF? Not trust, but agenda. I'm sorry? Not trust, but what al Qaeda agenda and Islamic National

516

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16

Front agenda and what they believe about them. Q. A. They had different agendas? On what scholars they follow. Al Qaeda, we have scholars. MR. STERN: Q. I understand. I have interpreters. I understand.

So Salim went there and he went with other people, right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And at some point he came back? Yes. Now, he was one of the people who spoke to you and to the

other members of al Qaeda to explain whether or not it was a good idea to move to the Sudan, wasn't he? A. Yeah, he make lecture in Farouq camp first. He make a

lecture.

17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

A lecture? In Khost in Farouq camp. And said, it turns out it's okay? Yeah. I met with them, they seem like good people? And some people ask him questions about his trip. And so, we should go there? Yes. And al Qaeda did move there, did they not?

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A. Q.

Yes. After al Qaeda moved there, there was a farm called Soba,

wasn't there? A. Q. Repeat question. Was there a farm where there used to be a meeting every

Thursday? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, we have Thursday meeting. Where was that farm where it was? The big farm, the farm number one. Farm number one? Yes. At those Thursday meetings, Salim would sometimes speak,

wouldn't he? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And sometimes Bin Laden would speak, right? Yes. And Salim would give explanations based on the Koran for

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

why the things al Qaeda was doing were okay, were good, right? A. Q. Yes. And he would quote from the Koran and try to convince

people through those quotes that what al Qaeda was doing and what you were being asked to do was something that a good Muslim would do, right? A. Q. Yes. So, for example, at one time Salim gave a speech in which

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17

he quoted from the Koran where it said there should be no other religions in our islands, do you remember that? A. Q. A. In Arab islands. What do you mean by that? In Arab islands: Yemen country, Saudi Arabia, Kuwait,

Iraq, Bahrain, Qatar, Muscat, Jordan, Palestine, this is Arab islands. Q. And he meant, did he not, that the khalifa should take

those Arab countries and make sure that they were completely Muslim, Arab countries for the Muslims, right? A. It's for Prophet Mohamed. He say Prophet Mohamed says

they not allowed to let two religions in Arab islands. Q. Okay. Now, you yourself don't know every line of the

Koran, do you? A. Q. No. And so when he would talk to you about lines from the

Koran, according to you, he would tell you these things and

18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

you would accept them as the truth, wouldn't you? A. Q. Yeah. You didn't think that Salim was manipulating the Koran to

do things he or Bin Laden wanted to do, did you? A. It's not thinking, it's about different scholars, they

understand different opinion from Koran. Q. Well, you yourself don't have the knowledge to make that

decision, do you?

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A. Q.

No, maybe I read, but not -- you're right, I follow them. So, according to you, when Salim would tell you something,

he was the scholar you chose to accept? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You're right. You respected him, right? Yes. Just like you respected Bin Laden? Yes. And so when he would say that quote to you and tell you

what it meant, you would say okay? A. Q. Yes. But you also were aware, are you not, that there may be

other Islamic scholars who think differently? A. Q. You're right. Now, according to you, on another occasion Mr. Salim gave

another speech in which he talked about the killing of civilians in Jihad, do you remember that that? A. Yeah, I remember that.

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Q.

Do you know of your own knowledge -- not from what

Mr. Salim told you, but of your own knowledge -- very much about Ibn Tamiyeh? A. Q. A. Yes. You do know a lot about him? No, he got 36 books, so I don't know everything he say,

but some of them.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Out of those 36, how many of them have you read? I read a lot about 28 about Jihad, the book 28. You read one book? Yes, they call it Jihad book. That's the only book you read out of 36 books he wrote? I focus with this more than others. Would the answer be, yes, that that's the only book you

read out of the 36 he wrote? A. Q. Yes. Now, when -- by the way, in Islam there's tremendous

respect for scholars, right? A. Q. Yes. As a matter of fact, when it comes down to a debate of

some kind about what's correct, what's Islamically correct, you look back to scholars and say what do the scholars say about that, right? A. Q. Yes. And so when someone more knowledgeable than you tells you

19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that a scholar said one thing or another, that really influences you, doesn't it? A. Some people, they go different scholars to find which one

he got more about that. Q. Well, in his speech, according to you, Mr. Salim talked

about -- am I saying this person's name right, Tamiyeh? A. Mohamed Ibn Tamiyeh.

521

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Q.

Tamiyeh.

He told you what Tamiyeh had said back in 17 or

1800 about a war with the Tartans, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And had you read that part for yourself? I don't remember. Well, he told you what that part said? Yes. Was that sometimes in a war civilians get killed, right? Yes. And that that's okay, because if they're good people,

they're lucky enough to go to heaven quicker? A. Q. Yes. And if they're bad people, they deserve to go to hell

anyway, right? A. Q. Yes. And that was his way of saying to you and everyone else

listening, it's okay to kill civilians if you have to because I say it and another scholar says it and that scholar interpreting the Koran says it, right?

20 21 22 23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes. So that was to mean to say to everybody, it's okay, don't

worry if you kill civilians, it's part of what we have to do? A. Q. A. Yes, under war. And when you heard that, you accepted it, did you not? Yes.

522

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Q.

Now, as you were working with al Qaeda, according to you,

you were involved in many businesses, right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you're quite a good businessman, aren't you? Yes. And as a result of your being a good businessperson, you

became more and more trusted -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. -- by the leaders of al Qaeda? Yes. And you did your best for them, right? Yes. And you knew that what you were doing, that is, making

money, would help the rest of al Qaeda do what they were doing, right? A. Q. Yes. Yes.

That making money was a critical part of al Qaeda being

able to function, didn't you? A. What mean, "function"?

20 21 22 23 24 25

Q. A. Q.

To get along, to work. Yes. Now, you knew that al Qaeda was involved in fights all

over the Arab world, right? A. Q. Yes. You knew that the money you were making would go to buy

523

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weapons, didn't you? A. Q. Yes. And you knew that those weapons would be given to soldiers

of al Qaeda, right? A. Q. Yes. And you knew that those soldiers would use those weapons

to kill people in other countries, right? A. Q. Yes. You knew that those weapons were going to southern Sudan,

your own country, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Southern Yemen? Yes. Egypt? Yes. Saudi Arabia? Yes. United States? Yes. Maybe Cyprus?

21 22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q.

Yes. All over the world, right? Yes. And wherever they were going, they would be used to kill

people in the name of Islam, right?

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A. Q.

Yes. And you were proud to be helping al Qaeda the way you best

could by being a businessperson? A. Q. Yes. And on some occasions you were even directly involved with

weapons, weren't you? A. Q. Yes. There came a time you talked about when you went to Helat

Koko in Khartoum, remember that time? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you went there with Salim, didn't you? Yes. And when you went there, you were going to a place where

they were making chemical weapons, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, that's what I told -- they told me. And that's what you believed? Yes. Do you know what chemical weapons are used for? No. Do you know that they're used to kill people?

21 22 23 24 25

A.

They say they use it with regular weapons, that's what I

hear. Q. A. Q. What? They use it with regular weapons. With regular weapons?

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A. Q.

Yes. What did they mean when they said they use it with regular

weapons? A. Q. I really I have no idea about what they mean. Okay. So I'm asking you, do you know that chemical

weapons are used to kill people? A. Q. Yes, that's what I hear from them. You know that, for example, they use gas to kill people,

right? A. Q. Yes. And whoever is in the area where that gas goes runs the

risk of being killed? A. Q. Yes. And when you went there with Mr. Salim -- by the way, what

year was that? A. Q. A. Q. Maybe during '93. During? '93 or early '94. When you went there with Mr. Salim, did you say to him,

this is a terrible thing, let's not get involved in chemical weapons production?

22 23 24 25

A. Q.

No, I didn't tell him that. Did you say, I refuse to get involved in chemical weapons

production, I quit al Qaeda? A. No.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21

Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Just went about your business, right? Yes. You continued to run your businesses? Yes. You continued to have that money from your businesses go

to do things, including chemical weapons, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Yes.

Now, Mr. Salim, you've met him, haven't you? What? You've met Mr. Salim personally? Yes. How tall is he? Maybe he's taller than you or your height. About my height? Could be, or a little taller. And in al Qaeda was he a powerful person? Yes, he's very close to Bin Laden. And was he a powerful speaker? Yes. Was he a person who influenced you into believing certain

things?

22 23 24 25

A. Q. A. Q.

What "influence" mean? By giving you speeches, by talking with you? Yes. By telling you what your obligation was in al Qaeda?

527

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 A.

(Witness consults with interpreter) Yeah, sometimes he write a speech from him and talk him

and meet him. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You talked some about a plan to bomb an embassy in Riyadh? Yes. Remember that? You know what year that was?

Maybe during '94. And you knew that when an embassy was bombed, people would

be killed, right? A. Q. Yes. Did you say -- by the way, who was talking to you about

that? A. Q. Hafs el Masry. Did you say to him, I will not get involved in the bombing

of embassies? A. Q. No, I didn't say that. Did you say, let's not bomb embassies, innocent people

could be killed? A. Q. A. Q. No, I didn't say that. You just went about your business, right? Yeah, I hear that from him. You just continued running your businesses?

23 24 25

A. Q.

Yes. To support al Qaeda and whatever wars they wanted to

fight, right?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22

A. Q.

Yes. Now, I want to talk to you some about 1993 or '94. There

came a time when you found out that, according to you, al Qaeda wanted to purchase uranium, correct? A. Q. A. Yes. Did you know what they want uranium for? I remember, yeah, Abu Jaffar al Tayar, he's Egyptian, and

he say it's easy to kill more people with uranium. Q. A. Q. You can make a huge bomb with uranium, right? Yes. And you didn't say, I don't want any part of anything that

will kill a lot of people, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. They asked you to go help get uranium, you said yeah? Yes. And so you went and you met with someone, right? Yes. And you tried to get as much information about the uranium

as you could? A. Q. A. Correct. You tried to find out if it was enriched or not enriched? What "enriched"?

23 24 25

Q.

It was ready to be made into a bomb immediately or had to

have something else done to it? A. The quality, yes.

529

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Try to find out what country it was from? The quality and which land, yes. But you yourself were not an expert -No. -- in uranium, were you? No, I just, I got the information and I bring it back to

somebody. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Isn't the somebody you brought it back to Salim? Abu Musab al Suri. Did you ever talk to Salim about this bomb? I give him the paper. Salim? Yes, but we didn't talk about it. But you gave him the paper? Just the paper. And according to you, he told you or you were told that he

was going to get some kind of machine to test this uranium, right? A. Not Salim, Abu Musab Suri told me machine going to come

from Kenya. Q. That was to see if this uranium was good enough to build a

bomb to kill a whole lot of people, right? A. Yes.

24 25

THE COURT:

Let me just interrupt, Mr. Stern.

Approximately how much longer do you have?

530

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 A. Q. No.

MR. STERN: BY MR. STERN: Q.

Literally another three minutes.

Mr. Al-Fadl, you have been working with the United States

Government since 1996, right? A. Q. Correct. And you have given them a lot of information that you

gathered through your years of working in al Qaeda, right? A. Q. Yes. Through your years of working as a high-ranking member of

al Qaeda, right? A. Q. Yes. And the agreement you reached with them ensures you won't

be executed, right? A. Q. What means "execute"? You won't be killed. (Witness consults with interpreter)

It ensures you won't spend the rest of your life in jail,

right? A. Q. They say up to 15 years. That's not the rest of your life. You don't expect it to

be, do you? A. This is what agreement, is up to 15 years.

24 25

Q.

But with Allah's help, you don't expect that to be the

rest of your life, do you?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

A. Q.

Yeah, 15 years a lot. I'm not asking if it's a lot, I'm asking, do you expect to

be alive at the end of it? A. Q. No. No, you don't? (Witness consults with interpreter) A. Q. (Through the interpreter) It's all in God's hands. Right. How about this: Do you hope to be alive at the

end of 15 years? A. Q. A. Q. Everybody hope that. How old will you be then? 52 or 53. They also brought your family to this country, didn't

they? A. Q. Correct. And they have taken care of you and your family since

you've been here, right? A. Q. Yes. And your hope is that you will even get less than 15

years, isn't it? A. Q. I hope. Your hope is if you do everything the government wants you

to do, you might never even go to jail at all, right? A. Yeah, I hope that.

25

Q.

Even though you're a high-ranking member of al Qaeda,

532

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24

right? A. Yes. MR. STERN: THE COURT: MR. HERMAN: THE COURT: I have nothing else. Thank you.

Anything else for today? No, your Honor. Ladies and gentlemen, your lunch is here

and so you are welcome to eat it, and we're going to call it a day. We're doing that because one of the attorneys who would

also be cross-examining this witness has the flu and we're hoping he will be better tomorrow, but if he's not, we'll go ahead with something else and I'll explain that tomorrow. And tomorrow we've made arrangements with the marshal. tomorrow. of the day. (Jury not present) THE COURT: Assuming that, although we wish him well, You know we're starting a little later than usual Thank you. Enjoy your lunch. Have a pleasant rest

that Mr. Schmidt is not available tomorrow and so the government calls its second witness, are there any matters which we should fruitfully take up prior to that witness taking the stand? MR. DRATEL: Yes, your Honor. There's also a point,

if I could make a point about the last cross-examination. THE COURT: Yes.

25

MR. DRATEL:

Your Honor, particularly the part about

533

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

this man going about the business, and this was the type of testimony that was elicited that was anticipated in our severance motion extremely prejudicial to Mr. El Hage in terms of trying to create a question of culpability or levels of culpability, even though obviously our position is that there is no evidence Mr. El Hage knew of any of this conduct going on. I still think it's extremely prejudicial to, in the

linkage in the jurors' minds, the type of reason we wanted a severance from the death penalty defendants in the first place. So I renew that motion at this time. THE COURT: Denied. Are there any matters that we could

My question is:

take up before the witness, assuming the next witness takes the stand? MR. FITZGERALD: Yes, Judge. I was having a

discussion with Mr. Dratel about, in particular, two issues. I don't think we have achieved resolution. I don't know if

we've given up on achieving resolution yet, but we should probably maybe talk over lunch and then advise your chambers if we should come back or do it now. THE COURT: I'm available all afternoon. And my

preference, obviously, is to take up such matters before we have a jury in the jury box or about to come in the jury box, and if there are some matters that the Court can fruitfully deal with this afternoon, simply call chambers.

534

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MR. DRATEL: MR. RUHNKE:

Okay. One inquiry to the government: We have

been given Jencks material on two witnesses. government's intention to call both witnesses? appear not to be lengthy witnesses. MR. FITZGERALD: witnesses. MR. DRATEL: THE COURT: Will or won't? Both. Both.

Is it the They both

We will be available to call both

MR. FITZGERALD:

We will have both available

and I will tell counsel at the break which order we intend to go in. MR. RUHNKE: THE COURT: Thank you. Subject to a telephone call to chambers,

we're adjourned until I think 10:30 tomorrow. (Adjourned to 10:30 a.m. on February 14, 2001)

535

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Exhibit No. Witness INDEX OF EXAMINATION D X 416 424 DEFENDANT EXHIBITS Received RD RX

JAMAL AHMED MOHAMED AL-FADL

A ...........................................461

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