9/11 Working-level Employee

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

DEPARTMENT OF STATE

Office of Inspector General

Memorandum of Conversation

Visas for the 9/11 Hijackers Embassy Riyadh Jan. 22.2003

Subject Office Date
Bert Kriee & Doug Ellice

Official Inspector

(Note: At| [request, an AFSA attorney located in Washington, DC, Zlatana Badrich.
listened in on this conversation which was conducted using a speakerphone in[__________pffice.)

1. For the record, please tell me your name, present rank and position.

2. Were you the officer who issued a nonimmigrant visa to Hamza Al-ghamdi on Oct. 17,2000
at Riyadh?

Yes.

3. Is this a copy of his application?

Yes.

4. Does the computer record indicate whether the CLASS lookout system procedure was
followed in this case?

Yes, it does, and CLASS Was checked.

5. What were the results of your check?

There were two "hits" (Inspector's note: hits are entries hi the computer database containing
possibly derogatory information about persons with possibly similar names and dates of birth^-I-
reviewed them and determined that the one that mattered related to another person who was not
my applicant. (Inspector's note: neither hit matches the applicant's name and date of birth. One
hit contains serious derogatory information about someone, and the other hit less serious
information about someone else, ancj ~|was making a distinction between those two
hits.)

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9/11 Working-level Employee

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

6. Did you interview this individual prior to issuing the visa?

\No.

7. If not, why not?

Post'{policy at that time was that Saudi citizens were not interviewed unless something on the
application form raised specific concerns in the officer's mind. Nothing in this application raised
such concerns on my part.

8. What was the policy at post regarding personal appearance waivers?

It was up to the consular officer. The basic policy was that Saudis did not present an
immigration problem; they were well qualified for visas and did not overstay their visits. We
tried to spend most of our time on Third Country Nationals (TCNs). In those days there were no
special processing procedures for Saudis. (Inspector's note: this refers to mandated clearance
procedures in place for designated nationalities.) If there was no hit, we issued the visa.

9. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

I observed a similar policy inj | my immediate previous assignment, and a fellow Gulf
Coordination Council country. It was put into place many years ago. I also followed the lead of
other officers when I arrived here. CA policy was to interview by exception, that is, interview
applicants only when needed.

10. Were you personally given any instructions by your supervisors or superiors about asking
applicants to appear in person for an interview?

No.

11. Did a travel agency submit the case?

No, we did not use travel Agencies until Visas Express was inaugurated in June, 2001.

12. If so, what was the policy at post regarding travel agency procedures?

n/a

13. How were you informed of this policy? In writing? Orally? By whom?

n/a

14. Would a personal interview of this applicant have possibly led to a refusal of this visa, and
why?

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 SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED

I think not, not then. I did not see any lines of inquiry.

15. If you interviewed this individual, what details can you recall?

n/a

16. Did he present any documents in support of his application?

I do not recall.

17. If so, can you recall any details of the documents that were presented?

n/a

18. What specific elements obtained from the interview or the application convinced you that
this applicant was entitled to a visa?

He came from a group of applicants that had not - until then - caused any problems for the
adjudicators. He was typical of many applicants we still see. He requested only?
and had financial support from his father.

19. Did you have sufficient time to conduct the interview or review the application to your
satisfaction? If not, how much time would you have preferred?

Yes. I had enough time.

20. Were there sufficient officers, interview windows, work space and support staff at post to
conduct personal interviews of every visa applicant?

There were not enough officers to interview everyone. Even interviewing only TCNs, the two
NIV officers handling our 60,000 visa cases would fall behind. I was J but once
in a while when I was caught up and they were not, I picked up a box of pending visa
applications to help out. There were enough interview windows but not enough officers to
interview each and every applicant, however we were unable to justify requesting additional staff
from the Department.

21. Would any other elements have helped you make a different decision regarding the
applicant's eligibility for a visa, and why?

22. Did your superiors ever discuss the post's NIV refusal rates in general with you?

No.

23. Did your superiors ever counsel you to raise or lower your own refusal rate?

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No.

24. Did you or anyone in the consular section conduct NTV return validation studies? If not, why
not?

In 2001 we tried to validate one particular TCN category - Sudanese traveling to the USA to sit
for the CPA exam. We also relied, on negative feedback from the INS but received very little
feedback from them.

25. How well did you speak and read Arabic?

I don't.

26. Did the Department train you in this language?

No.

27. Do you consider that the training you received in the Department to carry out your visa
adjudication responsibilities was adequate?

Yes. Language training would have been a plus. I could have moved cases faster.

28. If not, what additional training would have enabled you to do a better job?

Not training. To do a better job we need intelligence about who the threatening applicants are.
This threat was never discussed here at post or in Washington during the consultations I held
before coming to post.

29. What other comments would you like to make at this time regarding this visa case?

None.

Jadded that the post was opposed to large crowds standing in front of the building. The
sidewalks weren't covered and summer temperatures reached an unbearable 140 degrees
Fahrenheit. The RSO was also opposed to such crowds. The Visas Express program was
launched in May 2001 and became fully operational on June 1,2001. This program obliged all
Saudis to apply for visas through ten designated travel agencies, thus keeping away from the post
all except those the visa officers wanted to interview.

9/11 Working-level Employee

SENSITIVE BUT UNCLASSIFIED