Episode 33 Live From New York!

Participants:Adam B. Levine (AL)

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Andreas !. Antonopo"o#s (AA) $o%&ost 'tep&an( !#rp&( ('!) $o%&ost )onat&an !o&an ()!) BitcoinNY$ 'pecia" *#est

(m#sic) i +o"ks, Adam E. Livine &ere +or Lets-a"kBitcoin. $ontin#in. o#r A#.#st trend, toda(/s episode, is a two%parter. -&e second portion o+ toda(/s episode was recorded in !an&attan. -&e da( a+ter t&e 0nside Bitcoins event wit& 'tep&anie !#rp&( and specia" .#est &ost )onat&an !o&an o+ Bitcoin NY$. 1e ta"k a2o#t t&e con+erence, t&e attendees, ripp"e, A'0$ minin. pane"s, and a"so 2acon. Bi. t&anks to )onat&an !o&an w&o did a .reat 3o2 wit& t&is se.ment and w&o (o#/"" 2e &earin. more +rom in t&e weeks to come. B#t +irst, t&ere/s some important news +or #sers o+ Android wa""ets. 1&en news 2reaks in t&e 2itcoin wor"d o+ten times it/s &ard to #nderstand. -&is week a v#"nera2i"it( was revea"ed in t&e Android operatin. s(stem t&at p#t a rea" +ear in t&e 2itcoin comm#nit(. L-B ost Andreas Amantonopo"is spoke wit& Andreas Peterson o+ t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et pro3ect a2o#t e4act"( w&at &appened. B#t 2e+ore we .et to t&at, Andreas, 0 &ad some 5#estions +or (o#. First o++, in t&e interview t&at +o""ows, (o# ta"k a "ot a2o#t entrop(. $an (o# e4p"ain to me w&at t&at is in sort o+ simp"e terms6

AA '#re, Entrop( is a meas#re o+ &ow m#c& in+ormation t&ere is in a messa.e. 0+ (o# "ook at it t&e ot&er wa( aro#nd &ow m#c& randomness t&ere is in a messa.e in comp#ter science terms. 0n p&(sics terms it/s essentia""( &ow m#c& disorder t&ere is in a s(stem or &ow m#c& ener.( in t&e +orm o+ &eat t&ere is in a s(stem. B#t in t&e case o+ in+ormation s(stems rea""( (o# can sa( entrop( is sa(in. t&e same as randomness. 'o t&e pro2"em we/re disc#ssin. in t&is partic#"ar 2#. is t&at somet&in. t&at s&o#"d 2e random % t&at means it s&o#"d &ave &i.& entrop( % is not random. 0t doesn/t &ave t&e necessar( entrop(. 0n +act, it/s a rat&er predicta2"e se5#ence.

AL 'o w&en we ta"k a2o#t randomness t&at can a"so 2e c&aracteri7ed as noise compared to t&e si.na", ri.&t6

AA 1e"", e++ective"( (es. 0+ (o# &ave a random stream, especia""( i+ it/s a sec#re random n#m2er .enerator w&ere (o# e4pect it to &ave certain c&aracteristics o+ randomness t&en t&ere s&o#"d 2e no si.na" % t&at/s t&e de+inition. 'o ever( 2it t&at comes o#t o+ t&at s&o#"d 2e noise % (o# s&o#"d &ave no si.na".

AL 'o it/s a"" noise t&en. 8k, so i+ it/s a"" noise, t&en is t&ere a di++erence 2etween a "ot o+ noise in a s(stem vers#s a "itt"e noise in a s(stem6 )#st not necessari"( ta"kin. a2o#t random n#m2er .enerators 3#st 2road"( speakin.. 0+ (o#/re tr(in. to encr(pt somet&in. or sec#re somet&in., is it 2etter to &ave more randomness t&an "ess randomness6

AA Yo# need a2so"#te randomness. Let me .ive (o# an e4amp"e. Let/s sa( t&at t&ere/s a +#nction wit&in t&e s(stem w&ere (o#/re takin. a random n#m2er and (o#/re m#"tip"(in. it wit& (o#r secret ke(. 'o +or simp"icit( sake, "et/s sa( 0 &ave a secret ke( and m( secret ke( is 3. 'o .ive me a random n#m2er 2etween 9 and :;.

AL 3:

AA Fantastic, so, 0/m .oin. to m#"tip"( t&at 2( 3 and 0/ve .ot m( di.ita" si.nat#re. 'o i+ 0 ask (o# in m( ne4t transaction, .ive me a n#m2er 2etween 9 and :;.

AL 9<

AA 8k, .reat, so (o# .ave me a di++erent one. B#t w&at i+ (o# &ad said 3: a.ain and 0 &ad t&en m#"tip"ied t&at 2( 3 and 2roadcast it to t&e network. And peop"e knew t&at t&e( co#"d .#ess t&at i+ (o#/d said 3: once (o# were "ike"( to sa( 3: a.ain. 1e"", t&en t&e( co#"d 3#st divide 2( 3: and +i.#re o#t w&at m( private ke( is. -&e( wo#"dn/t 2e a2"e to do t&at i+ (o# act#a""( came #p wit& a random n#m2er. 'o t&at/s t&e pro2"em. -&e pro2"em is (o# s&o#"d sa( somet&in. di++erent, 2#t, (o# sa( t&e same n#m2er a.ain.

AL And so t&at/s more "ike"( to &appen in a s(stem t&at &as "ess entrop( t&an one t&at &as more entrop(, is t&at ri.&t6 Beca#se t&ere are +ewer possi2"e n#m2ers6

AA 'o t&e wa( it works is w&en (o# &ave a sec#re cr(pto.rap&ic random n#m2er .enerator, (o# can on"( p#"" o#t 2its +or t&e amo#nt o+ entrop( it &as. 'o "et/s sa( +or e4amp"e it &as c#rrent"( 9=> random 2its to .ive (o#. 0+ (o# .et 9=> random 2its t&ose wi"" 2e random. 0+ (o# tried to p#"" o#t =;; 2its, (o# know, t&e +irst 9=> wi"" 2e random 2#t a+ter t&at, t&e s(stem doesn/t (et &ave eno#.& entrop(. Yo# &ave to wait a 2it +or random processes to occ#r. -&e 2asic concept 2e&ind it &ere is t&is was not a pro2"em o+ r#nnin. o#t o+ entrop(, -&is was simp"( a 2roken a".orit&m, so, it was s#pposed to .ive o#t =:? 2its o+ entrop( and instead it .ave o#t on avera.e @. 'o t&e di++erence t&ere is instead o+ &avin. more c&oices or pro2a2i"ities t&an t&ere are atoms in t&e #niverse it came down to :;; com2inations. -&at/s @ 2its o+ entrop(. 'o (o# can ver( easi"( test a"" :;; com2inations and prett( m#c& +i.#re o#t w&at t&e ne4t random n#m2er t&at/s s#pposed to 2e random is and i+ (o# can .#ess t&e ne4t n#m2er % we"", it/s not random.

AL 'o w&at s&o#"d &ave taken a"" t&e s#per comp#ters t&at are c#rrent"(

in e4istence in order to crack t&is one partic#"ar =:? de.rees o+ randomness 2asica""(%

AA %Yo# co#"d do on a wide 2oard wit& a pen.

AL Ai.&t oka(, we"" t&at makes a "ot o+ sense. 8k .reat. 1e"" 0 rea""( appreciate (o# providin. some c"arit( +or #s on t&is iss#e. Let/s 3#mp ri.&t into t&e interview wit& t&e ot&er Andreas.

i ever(one, t&is &as 2een a rat&er e4citin. week in t&e 2itcoin space wit& t&e anno#ncement o+ a ver( critica" android 2#. t&at &as widespread reperc#ssions a"" across t&e mo2i"e wa""et space. -o disc#ss t&is in a 2it more detai" 0/m ver( p"eased to 2e 3oined toda( 2( Andreas Peterson w&o is one o+ t&e ownersBa#t&ors o+ t&e !(ce"i#m !o2i"e 1a""et and &e/s &ere to ta"k to #s a 2it a2o#t t&is recent 2reac&.

AP e""o ever(one.

AL e""o Andreas, t&ank (o# so m#c& +or 3oinin. #s. $an (o# te"" me a 2it a2o#t w&at e4act"( t&e pro2"em is % w&ere did t&is start6

AP -o see t&e so#rce o+ t&e pro2"em we &ave to .o 2ack in time a "itt"e 2it to =;9= w&en t&ere was an anno#ncement o+ a randomness +ai"#re in t&e Android imp"ementation o+ )ava. Basica""( in t&e &armon( s(stem. -&is was presented in t&e A'A con+erence in =;93 % 0 t&ink it was !arc&. -&is was main"( an academic pro2"em. Beca#se no2od( co#"d rea""( see t&e practica" pro2"em 2e&ind it e4cept +or t&is weird randomness 2e&avior on Android.

AL Yea&, so it wo#"d on"( rea""( app"( i+ (o# &ad some kind o+ 2i7arre di.ita" c#rrenc( t&at co#"d some&ow 2e sto"en, ri.&t6

AP Yes, (ea&, so most peop"e don/t rea""( notice i+ "et/s sa( t&eir ''L connections aren/t rea""( t&at sec#re or i+ t&e( enco#nter some ot&er kind o+ pro2"em. 'o, 2itcoin rea""( p#ts t&e s(stem #nder test &ere and revea"s t&ese kinds o+ pro2"ems. -o 2e precise 0 t&ink t&is is not a sin."e pro2"em % t&ere are two ver( distinct pro2"ems t&at we &ave seen &ere. -&e +irst pro2"em is (o# know t&ere/s a so ca""ed random device in most Lin#4 s(stems or in a"" Lin#4 s(stems, and +rom t&at t&ere is a C%Aandom device. -&ese seem to 2e workin. +ine as +ar as we know.

AL 'o t&e operatin. s(stem random device .enerator t&at creates random n#m2ers t&at/s workin. ok on Android.

AP Yea&, (ea& % so to act#a""( #se random n#m2ers on Android #sin. )ava "an.#a.e (o# need to instantiate a so%ca""ed sec#re random o23ect and t&at sec#re random o23ect is 3#st a wrapper +or a s(stem "i2rar( and t&at is common"( imp"emented #sin. 8pen'L. And t&at imp"ements t&e randomness 2( ta"kin. to t&e device and so t&ere are man( "a(ers invo"ved &ere. 1a""et A"p&as did not&in. wron.. -&e( st#ck to t&e doc#mentation and app"ied t&e 2est practices to not rewrite (o#r cr(pto.rap&( and so on. 'o t&at was not t&e pro2"em. -&e pro2"em was 2etween a"" t&ese "a(ers, entrop( was removed +rom t&e ori.ina" entrop( so#rce t&at is t&e random device.

AL 'o 2asica""( (o#/re .ettin. n#m2ers t&at are "ess random t&an t&e( s&o#"d 2e +rom t&e so#rce so .rad#a""( t&e(/re .ettin. "ess and "ess random, ok.

AP Yea&, 2#t +rom t&at 2#. direct"( no2od( rea""( "ost mone(. 0 &ave ta"ked to anot&er .#( w&o is crackin. private ke(s as a &o22(, and &e .enerated "ots and "ots o+ random n#m2ers. =.? mi""ion random n#m2ers and &e never .ot t&e co""ision #sin. Android. e never .ot t&e co""ision so t&ere was no private ke( compromised as +ar as we know. 1e don/t know rea""(, 2#t w&at we do know is t&at t&ere is a second iss#e. -&at is, w&en si.nin. transactions t&ere is a"so a random n#m2er needed to .enerate a va"id si.nat#re. And t&ose si.nat#res are de+inite"( not as random as we t&ink t&e( are.

AL 'o "et me 3#st c"ari+( t&ere Andreas +or a second. 'o t&e iss#e is not wit& t&e ke( .eneration per se, t&e iss#e is t&at w&en (o# tr( to si.n a transaction especia""( to spend it, (o# are in a sit#ation w&ere (o# are seedin. t&at si.nat#re wit& a random n#m2er w&ic& is not random and i+ (o# do t&at more t&an twice, t&at can revea" t&e private ke(. 0s t&at correct6

AP Yes, e4act"(. 'o t&ere is an e5#ation, it is descri2ed ver( nice"( in a 2itcoin ma.a7ine artic"e. 0+ (o# &ave t&is random n#m2er and (o# #se it twice, t&en #sin. t&is e5#ation (o# can trivia""(, simp"(, ca"c#"ate t&e private ke( t&at was #sed. -&is means t&at i+ (o# &ave a weak random n#m2er .enerator t&at can potentia""( e4pose (o#r private ke( to ever(one. -&at &as &appened a n#m2er o+ times in t&e past. !ost o+ t&e time w&ere it was w&en peop"e were p"a(in. aro#nd wit& to( imp"ementations, protot(pe imp"ementations o+ c"ients. B#t it a"so &appened on Android direct"( w&en si.nin. transactions. -&e iss#e is t&at (o# create a new sec#re random instance and t&en (o# 5#er( it twice. Cnder ver( weird circ#mstances t&ere are +a""2ack scenarios w&ere t&e entrop( .oes down to a "eve" w&ere it &as a ver( &i.& c&ance o+ repeatin. t&e same va"#e. Basica""( 0 t&ink t&at in some cases t&e randomness can .o down to @ 2its o+ entrop( instead o+ =:? 2its o+ entrop(.

AL

*iven a"" o+ t&ose circ#mstances 0 wo#"d ass#me t&at means w&et&er (o#/ve .enerated t&e ke( on an Android wa""et or not, i+ (o# &ave an Android wa""et t&at is #sin. t&is )ava sec#re random n#m2er .enerator, and (o# #se t&at to spend mone( at an( time (o# &ave a c&ance o+ &avin. revea"ed a private ke( +or t&at partic#"ar wa""et6

AP Ai.&t now 0 wo#"d ass#me % o+ co#rse (o# s&o#"d mi.rate (o#r ke(s 2eca#se o+ t&e .enera" entrop( iss#es % 2#t, ri.&t now, i+ (o# &aven/t "ost (o#r mone( (et, it/s not e4treme"( "ike"( t&at (o# wi"" "ose it in t&e +#t#re 2eca#se o+ t&is second v#"nera2i"it(. Beca#se t&at wo#"d mean i+ (o# contin#e #sin. t&e o"d so+tware and .enerate t&ese weak transactions (es, t&en (o# co#"d potentia""( e4pose t&at. B#t t&at/s ver( #n"ike"(.

AL 'o one t&in. t&at was rat&er interestin. wit& t&is was t&at t&e 2#. itse"+ e4presses itse"+ on t&e 2"ock c&ain in a wa( t&at an(one can .o and +ind t&ese s#spect transactions. Pres#ma2"( (o#/re "ookin. at a transaction, or rat&er (o#/re "ookin. at two consec#tive transactions done 2( a same ke( w&ere t&e same random parameter A was #sed +or 2ot&, and pres#ma2"( (o# can 3#st write so+tware t&at track"ess t&ro#.& t&e 2"ock c&ain to +ind t&ese, ri.&t6

AP Yea&, and peop"e were doin. t&is and (o# wi"" "ose (o#r mone( rat&er 5#ick"( i+ (o# .enerate s#c& a transaction.

AL 0+ (o#/d a"read( done it (o# wo#"d &ave "ost (o#r mone( a"read( so t&ere/s not&in. to worr( a2o#t. )#st don/t make an( new transactions.

AP Yea&, and o+ co#rse a"" t&e c&an.e o+ ke(s. -&ere are man( properties o+ t&is stack, !''L, and t&e Android AP0 t&at are kind o+ s&ad( in m(

opinion 2eca#se it certain"( isn/t impossi2"e to imp"ement t&at in a wa( t&at it wo#"d simp"( work. And it/s kind o+ s&ad( t&at it +ai"s in s#c& a wa(, so 0 wo#"d sa( i+ some2od( #sed sec#re random on Android +or an( p#rpose t&at (o# s&o#"d c&an.e (o#r ke(s 2eca#se t&ere mi.&t 2e a v#"nera2i"it( t&at we don/t know e4act"( a2o#t (et.

AL 'o Andreas, wo#"d (o# sa( t&at t&is 2itcoin demonstration makes t&e =;93 anno#ncement at A'A m#c& more critica" and concrete now and s&o#"d t&ere+ore "ead ot&er deve"opers on Android doin. so+tware t&at/s not direct"( re"ated to 2itcoin 2#t to ot&er sec#re imp"ementations. -&is wi"" kind o+ wake t&em #p, (o# know, t&is is now in t&e wi"d and #sa2"e.

AP 0 don/t rea""( t&ink it/s a ver( 2i. coincidence t&at a"" t&ese 2#.s &appened to.et&er. A kind o+ conspirac( t&eor( &ere, 2#t o+ co#rse, t&is 2#. makes it potentia""( m#c& easier +or an(one wit& massive comp#tin. reso#rces to crack encr(pted comm#nication. And t&ere+ore ever(one w&o is t&e a#t&or o+ an( cr(pto.rap&ica""( interestin. app"ication on Android s&o#"d de+inite"( cease to #se sec#re random and rat&er "ook +or an a"ternative. 'o, t&e most o2vio#s a"ternative wo#"d 2e to access DAFC random device. DAFC random +i"e direct"( and read +rom t&at as we do now in t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et. -&e ot&er t&in. is t&at 0/m c#rrent"( "ookin. into an imp"ementation proposa" 2( Br#ce 'c&neier, i+ t&at wo#"d provide a ver( .ood a"ternative t&at we co#"d com2ine m#"tip"e entrop( so#rces.

AL A&, ri.&t, (es. As a deve"oper o+ t&e pop#"ar and ver( +#nction !(ce"i#m wa""et, (o#/ve taken steps now to +i4 t&is pro2"em 0/m ass#min. a"" o+ t&e Android 2itcoin wa""et deve"opers are doin. so. 1&at wo#"d t&e #sers e4perience6 1o#"d t&e( e4perience simp"( an #pdate comin. t&ro#.& t&eir p"a( store6

AP Yes, so +irst o+ a"" 0 &ave to rea""( .ive credit to )an !ec&"er, and as +ar

as 0 know a"" pop#"ar Android wa""ets &ave 2een #pdated so t&at t&e( are +o#r wa""ets o#t t&ere t&at keep (o#r own private ke(s on t&e device. -&at/s 2itcoin wa""et +rom (ina#di2"e 9E:3;), t&at/s !(ce"i#m wa""et, B"ockc&ain.in+o, and a"so t&e now kind o+ deprecated Bitcoin 'pinner % t&at was t&e previo#s app"ication +rom )an % was a"so #pdated. 'o on some o+ t&ese wa""ets (o# need to man#a""( do t&e ke( rotation, 2#t on ot&ers +or e4amp"e on t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et t&ere/s a wi7ard t&at detects o"d ke(s and a#tomatica""( moves t&em to new ke(s. And in t&e process w&at 0 rea""( want to emp&asi7e &ere, p"ease do make a 2ack#p o+ a"" (o#r o"d ke(s and (o#r new ke(s. Yo# don/t know i+ (o#/re .oin. to need t&em in t&e +#t#re. 0n t&e wi7ard it a"so .ives (o# t&e opport#nit( to make a 2ack#p. 'o p"ease do t&at and .et t&ose private ke(s onto a piece o+ paper p"ease.

AL 8ka(, (es, ver( .ood advice. *et it onto paper wa""ets as 2ack#ps. 'o "et me 3#st c"ari+( a tin( 2it. Yo# ta"ked a2o#t t&e rotatin. ke(s, i+ (o# were to 2reak down t&is process: (o# down"oad t&e new code +rom t&e so+tware deve"opers w&o &ave #pdated t&e code. Yo# make a 2ack#p o+ t&e ke(s as (o# ver( ri.&t"( 3#st said. -&en (o# create a new wa""et, and t&en (o# essentia""( send a"" t&e mone( +rom t&e o"d wa""et to t&e new wa""et6 0s t&at it prett( m#c&6

AP Yo# wi"" send mone( +rom one address to anot&er address and (o#r wa""et so+tware now &as ma(2e 2ot& addresses in it or 3#st one address in it dependin. on t&e imp"ementation #sed. 0t/s not a ver( comp"e4 pro2"em, (o#/re essentia""( 3#st sendin. mone( to (o#rse"+ and it/s a new address.

AL And ver( critica""( 0 wo#"d sa( t&is &as to &appen a+ter t&e so+tware &as 2een +i4ed 2eca#se i+ (o# 3#st .enerate a new address and tried to send (o#r mone(, (o# wi"" 2e creatin. e4act"( t&e kinds o+ transactions t&at co#"d compromise (o#r private ke(, ri.&t6

AP

Yea&, so #pdates +or a"" t&e wa""ets &ave 2een p#s&ed o#t so t&e p"a( store and t&e two ot&er c&anne"s, t&at s&o#"dn/t 2e a pro2"em. $an 0 ask (o# somet&in. in ret#rn re.ardin. t&is topic. Yo# were invo"ved in t&e paper wa""et pro3ect, (ea&6 ow is t&e sit#ation t&ere, do (o# &ave an( inside in+ormation a2o#t... w&at kind o+ randomness does t&e paper wa""et provide6

AL -&e ori.ina" paper wa""et is derived +rom t&e 2itaddress.or. version =.E. -&at/s t&e same so+tware we #se +or open paper wa""ets, sa+e paper wa""ets, and as +ar as 0 know t&e 2itcoin paper wa""ets w&ic& is anot&er version. A"" o+ t&ose #se t&e operatin. s(stem dev#random +rom wit&in a )ava'cript wrapper "i2rar(. -&at does not r#n on Android so t&at wo#"d 2e inside t&e desktop 2rowser as +ar as 0 know t&ere/s no v#"nera2i"ities t&ere.

AP 0t wo#"d re"( on t&e )ava'cript imp"ementation o+ t&e 2rowser #sed. 'o it co#"d 2e $&rome or 0nternet E4p"orer or somet&in..

AL 1e"" it/s cross%2rowser so it operates on a"" o+ t&em, 2#t certain"( (es, one o+ t&e considerations &ere % and 0 t&ink a .ood sec#rit( practice % and one o+ t&e reasons 0 was not as worried a2o#t t&is even t&o#.& 0 #se a mo2i"e wa""et is simp"( t&at 0 on"( &ad =%3F o+ m( +#nds on"ine on t&e wa""ets t&at were doin. transactions +rom m( mo2i"e c"ient. -&e rest was a"" in paper wa""ets and t&at/s a .ood wa( to 2e rest%ass#red essentia""( % to 2e re"a4ed a2o#t it.

AP Yea&, (ea&, a2so"#te"(. 'o a"so 0 mean on paper wa""et (o# re"( on &avin. a .ood entrop( +or t&e ke( o+ co#rse 2#t t&e main pro2"em t&e d#p"icated random va"#es in t&e transaction doesn/t even s&ow #p in paper wa""ets 2eca#se t&e( don/t do an( transactions o+ co#rse.

AL

-&at is correct a"t&o#.& we do &ave in o#r "atest version o+ 'a+e Paper 1a""ets so+tware we do &ave a wa( to comp"ete"( sweep and redeem and it wi"" create a transaction so 0 wo#"d &ave to "ook at t&e random n#m2er .enerator. B#t in .enera" 0 t&ink t&is is rea""( a si.n o+ t&in.s to come 2eca#se v#"nera2i"ities in t&e past &ad time 2etween .oin. +rom t&eoretica" to practica" and in t&e wi"d, 2#t w&at 2itcoin does is it provides immediate incentive to take t&at t&eoretica" e4p"oit practica" and make some mone( o++ o+ it. 'o we/re .oin. to see t&is &appen more and more, wo#"d (o# sa(6

AP A2so"#te"(. 'o t&is is rea""( s&owin. t&e weaknesses on some s(stems and a"so in comp#ter sec#rit( it/s not s#rprisin. t&at a "ot o+ +i"e &osts, server &osts, &ave 2een &acked and attackers speci+ica""( on"( went +or t&e 2itcoin c#stomers and "e+t ever(one e"se a"one. 'o t&is rea""( s&ows t&e sec#rit( stat#s o+ t&e s(stem i+ (o# &ave some 2itcoins #p +or .ra2s +or an attacker.

AL !ost s(stems are not 5#ite read( (et +or storin. di.ita" mone( 2#t we/re .oin. to "earn and deve"op as time .oes 2(. 0 wo#"d "ike to t&ank (o# so m#c& Andreas Peterson, co%a#t&or o+ t&e !(ce"i#m mo2i"e wa""et +or .ivin. #s some e4ce""ent in+ormation toda( on w&at e4act"( is &appenin. wit& Android random n#m2er .enerator, &ow to so"ve it, so w&at to acco#nt +or, and t&ank (o# so m#c& +or a"" t&is #se+#" in+ormation.

AP Yo#/re we"come.

Eas( DN' is t&e 'wiss%arm( kni+e +or (o#r domain names % &e"pin. meet t&eir c#stomer/s individ#a" needs since 9@@>. Eas( DN' &as 2een an o#tspoken critic o+ '8PA and $0'PA. Eas( DN' was an ear"( s#pporter o+ 2itcoin and now t&e( are pro#d to sponsor t&is s&ow. Do 2#siness wit& a 2#siness t&at s&ares (o#r va"#es. *et a 93F disco#nt w&en (o# pa( wit& 2itcoin. *o to 2itcoin.eas(dns.com and 2e s#re to #se disco#nt code L-B.

i, t&is is )ason Gin., +or Bitcoin9;;.or., and (o#/re "istenin. to Lets-a"kBitcoin. Bitcoin9;; is o"d sc&oo" 2itcoin p&i"ant&rop(. 1e/ve 2ro#.&t +#rt&er awareness to 2itcoin 2( &avin. c&arities and non% pro+its add a 2itcoin donation option to t&eir sites. -&en we wi"" award t&em wit& a H9,;;; endowment +or t&eir e++orts. P"ease &e"p s#pport #s 2( eit&er donatin. to o#r ca#se at Bitcoin9;;.or. or 2( &e"pin. #s +ind wort&( non%pro+its t&at are wi""in. to accept 2itcoins +or donations. -&anks.

AL i and we"come to episode 3; o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin, we are on t&e 3>t& +"oor o+ t&e New Yorker ote" in New York, New York! Yesterda( we attended t&e 0nside Bitcoins $on+erence, and t&is mornin. it/s a "itt"e a+ter 9; A! East $oast time w&ic& means a2o#t < A! 1est $oast time. -&e time t&at m( 2rain is sti"" on. )oinin. #s toda( we/ve .ot m( norma" co%&ost 'tep&anie !#rp&(.

'! e""o, we/re in t&e same room a.ain!

AL Yes, we/re in t&e same room a.ain. 'econd time! 'weet. And t&en a"so specia" .#est &ost !r. )onat&an !o&an.

)! e(, 0 &ave some 2i. s&oes to +i"" 2#t 0 &ope to t&em 5#ite ((ina#di2"e, =9:;;)

AL 'o )on !o&an a.ain &as 2een on t&e s&ow 2e+ore and is t&e +o#nder and w&ir"wind o+ activit( t&at constit#tes t&e p"annin. 2e&ind t&e Bitcoin NY$ .ro#p and vario#s events. 1e went to a cocktai" part( t&e

ni.&t 2e+ore "ast6

)! Yes, on !onda(.

AL 'econd market t&at (o# &e"ped p#t to.et&er and it was a com2ination .ro#p event +or Lets-a"kBitcoin and +or a co#p"e o+ ot&er % 0 t&ink $oinsetter was t&ere6

'! Yea&.

AL Yea&, $oinsetter, and t&en t&e ot&er one was o+ co#rse 'econd !arket.

)! Yea&, 0 &eard t&at 9E; peop"e A'IP/d, t&e( &ad to kick peop"e o#t.

AL Yea&, t&at was a +#nn( t&in.. Apo"o.ies to "isteners i+ an(2od( didn/t .et in, +ee" +ree to emai" comp"aints to Adam at Lets-a"kBitcoin.com. B#t (ea&, so t&is was an incredi2"e event! 0 .otta sa( even +or a one da( event, a "ot o+ st#++ &appens, (o# know t&e ta"ks a.ain, we &ad t&is t&in. w&ere t&e ta"ks were .ood 2#t it was more a2o#t t&e attendees t&an rea""( a2o#t t&e speakers.

)! 'ome +eed2ack 0 .ot was t&ere were wa( more ama7in. peop"e in t&e a#dience t&an sometimes as a pane"ist 0/m .onna sa(%

AL Ai.&t, we a"" spoke t&ere 0 +ee" com+orta2"e sa(in.% (a"" "a#.&)

)! 0 wo#"d ta"k "ike, J1&at do (o# do6 1&( weren/t (o# on t&at6 8& m( .od!J

'! 0t/s tr#e. Yo#/d wa"k aro#nd and ever(one &as $E8 on t&eir name ta.. 0 wanted to sa( 0/m "ike t&e $E8 o+ 8rk -&erap( or somet&in.. (a"" "a#.&) B#t (ea& 0 mean ever(2od( &ad a pro3ect, t&e( a"" &ad t&in.s to sa(. At one point 0 was doin. some interviews o#t in t&e &a""wa( and 0 rea"i7ed t&at severa" &o#rs &ad .one 2( and 0 &ad missed Adam/s ta"k act#a""( and 0 wanted to see it 2#t 0 was "ike 3#st one interview a+ter t&e ot&er, so...

AL Yea& (ea&, no, (o# were 5#ite t&e mac&ine o#t t&ere,. 'o &ow man( interviews did (o# .et t&is time, 'tep&anie6

'! 8&, at "east a do7en.

AL 8ka(, so (o# .ot, 0 t&ink it was, was it =; "ast time6 0 t&ink it was a2o#t =: "ast time6 8ka(, so t&e ratio is a2o#t keepin. #p, it/s a2o#t 9=%9: a da(.

'! 1e"" &ope+#""( it/s 5#a"it( too and not 3#st 5#antit(. B#t &onest"( 0 t&o#.&t t&e( were .reat. 0 ta"ked to some peop"e t&at 0 &ad 2een

wantin. to ta"k to and it was rea""( interestin.. Especia""( to &ear more a2o#t w&at/s .oin. on in t&e minin. scene. -&ose were pro2a2"( m( +avorite interviews. 0 ta"ked to 'am +rom GN$ !iner and )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s. 0 a"so +o#nd o#t a2o#t Feat&ercoin, t&at was interestin. too.

AL Yea&, (ea&, did (o# meet t&e $08 t&ere6

'! Yes, t&at was Peter.

AL 1as t&at &is name6 0 t&o#.&t &is name was )o&n. 0/m terri2"e wit& names.

'! 0t was Peter )o&n.

AL Peter )o&n! -&ere (o# .o, oka(, t&at makes sense.

)! !( mot&er sa(s to never tr#st peop"e wit& two +irst names. !a(2e t&at/s a si.n. 0 &ad no idea &e was t&ere.

'! Yea& it was coo", 0 "earned some t&in.s 0 didn/t know a2o#t Feat&ercoin 2e+ore and 0 kind o+ wanted to .et Feat&ercoins "ast ni.&t w&en 0 .ot &ome.

)! 0 3oke wit& )onat&an 1or&an t&e Bit!essa.e .#( t&at we s&o#"d make o#r own cr(pto c#rrenc( and ca"" it 2reat& "ike air. And w&at it wi"" do is t&ere wi"" on"( ever 2e =9 5#adri""ion #nits in circ#"ation and it wi"" 2e t&e &eir to Feat&ercoin/s copper. (a"" "a#.&) 0t/s so (ina#di2"e =E:;;) it/s #nmetera2"e. 0t/s 3#st (o# don/t care 2eca#se it/s so man(. 0 t&ink it/s .onna .o p"aces, 0 t&ink t&is is t&e time to anno#nce it.

'! -&ere is so m#c& more .oin. on too. -&ere were a "ot o+ 2i. media t&ere. Adam, (o# know, 0 don/t know i+ t&e(/re .oin. to do an(t&in. wit& it 2#t (o# and 0 were 2ot& on camera +or $B' nationa".

AL Yea&, no, s&e was e4cited, we spoke wit& t&e prod#cer t&ere, 0 act#a""( % wa"kin. o#t on t&e ta"ks on t&e wa( to "#nc&, (o# know 0 act#a""( didn/t eat 2reak+ast (esterda( and so 0 was &eadin. to "#nc&. B#t t&en 0 was wa"kin. 2( and 0 saw t&is 2ewi"dered "ookin. woman w&o &ad a nameta. t&at said prod#cer $B' and 0 "ike reversed, came 2ack, and was "ike, J e(, 0/m Adam B. Levine o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin! Do (o# need an( &e"p +indin. an(one6J 'o t&at/s w&at 0 tr( to do at t&ese events most o+ a"" is 3#st to 2e &e"p+#" and to%

'! 8& (o# were .reat wit& t&at! Yo# "ined #p a 2#nc& o+ interviews. 0 t&ink s&e "earned a "ot a2o#t 2itcoins 2eca#se s&e was tota""( new to it and 0/m ."ad t&e( decided to come. $NN was t&ere in t&e mornin..

AL 1e"" t&e( weren/t necessari"(% $B' wasn/t% s&e was 3#st t&ere to see i+ t&e( s&o#"d cover it. And so a+ter 0 to"d &er t&at 0 co#"d .et &er "ike 9; interviews s&e/s "ike 8k, 0/m ca""in. t&e crew. -&en t&e( s&owed #p a2o#t a &a"+ &o#r "ater. B#t no, it was .reat, it/s terri+ic. A.ain, 2itcoin and cr(pto c#rrencies in .enera" are &ard to #nderstand i+ (o# don/t &ave t&e 2asis to #nderstand t&em and so w&en especia""( 3o#rna"ists

come into p"a( % a "ot o+ times t&ese peop"e don/t &ave a rea" monetar( 2ack.ro#nd and so it/s &ard to appreciate it. B#t (o# know, i+ (o# can .et o#t t&ere and .ive t&em .ood ana"o.ies t&e( can #nderstand and t&e( can take 2ack to t&eir "isteners and t&eir viewers % 2eca#se t&at o+ co#rse is t&e ot&er t&in. is t&at i+ t&e( can/t #nderstand it &ow in &e"" are t&e( s#pposed to present it to an a#dience w&o is even "ess in+ormed t&an t&e( are. 'o, (o# know, 0 t&ink we act#a""( did some .ood work (esterda( and 0 know PB' was t&ere too.

'! Ae#ters, -ec&$r#nc&. A "ot o+ 2i. names, &onest"(. 0t was .reat.

)! Yo# know, at De+$on, t&e( &ave somet&in. ca""ed spot t&e +ed w&ere it/s a .ame w&ere (o# &ave to spot w&o/s a +edera" a.ent. And act#a""( 0 don/t know in t&e 'an )ose con+erence i+ (o# &ad an(, 2#t, did (o#

'! Andreas c"aimed t&at &e identi+ied an FB0 a.ent.

)! 1ere (o# a2"e to meet t&e specia" a.ent w&o was &ere +rom t&e $(2er $rimes Division6

'! 0 didn/t meet &im 2#t 0 &eard (o#/re &avin. "#nc& wit& &im.

)! Yea&, ne4t week 0 want to do t&at. e seems rea""( interestin..

'!

1ow, so (o# didn/t &ave to spot &im &e was o2vio#s.

)! Yea&, &e was wearin. a name ta. t&at read FB0. e didn/t "ook "ike a Fed. e was wearin. a t%s&irt and 3#st &an.in. o#t.

'! 1e"" t&en t&e 5#estion 2ecomes w&o was inco.nito.

)! Ai.&t, ri.&t. 0 &ad a rea""( +#n moment w&ere someone &ad .iven me &is card. And 0 went, o& m( .od 0 ta"ked to t&is Fed (o# &ave to ta"k to &im. 'o w&en 0 went to speak to &im, 0 said &e( 0/m )onat&an we s&o#"d .ra2 "#nc& some time. And &e said, J8&, "et me .ive (o# m( card.J And 0 was "ike, Jt&at/s a"ri.&t 0 a"read( &ave a"" o+ (o#r in+ormation.J ("a#.&s) And &e was "ike, J1&at6J

AL A&ead o+ t&e .ame! ("a#.&s) Yea& no, in addition to t&e FB0 % 0 did not meet t&e a.ent t&ere, 2#t. 0 did see someone +rom treas#r( t&ere and 0 .ot a card +rom t&em and we/re .onna speak to t&em 2eca#se a.ain (o# know t&e(/re... Aea""( w&at it seemed "ike a.ain % and t&is mi.&t not 2e tr#e o+ ever(one in t&ese a.encies 2#t certain"( t&e peop"e w&o are t&ere at t&e ver( "east seemed "ike t&e( were c#rio#s and 3#st didn/t rea""( know w&at was .oin. on. 'o t&at co#"d 2e an act%

'! -&at wo#"d not s#rprise me..

AL Ai.&t, e4act"( 2#t it seems act#a""( +air"( "ike"( t&at .iven a"" t&e t&in.s

to pa( attention to, t&is is 3#st simp"( not somet&in. t&at t&e ma3orit( o+ t&em are pa(in. attention to.

)! Ai.&t. And (o#/d mentioned PB'. 'o 0 was speakin. wit& t&em and at t&e end o+ t&e interview t&e prod#cer &ad mentioned, JYo# know, we were ta"kin. a2o#t potentia""( t&inkin. a2o#t acceptin. 2itcoin.J And 0 said, J8& m( .od, t&at/s ama7in.! 8&, wait! 0/m .onna do as m#c& as 0 possi2"( can to make t&is a rea"it(...J And t&at/s w&at/s so ama7in. a2o#t t&e con+erence is w&en (o# &ave 3;;, E;; entreprene#rs in a room it/s rea""( eas( to start doin. t&in.s. 'o 0 3#st .ot% 0 immediate"( ran to -on( *i"eppe o+ BitPa(. And so 0 was "ike, JA"ri.&t (o# and 0. 1e/re .onna meet wit& PB' and we/re .onna make t&is &appen.J And 0 .ot o#t t&ree s&eets o+ paper, and 0 3#st ran aro#nd t&e con+erence and d#rin. t&at time we act#a""( .ot =;; 2itcoins p"ed.ed towards .oin. t PB' s&o#"d t&e( accept 2itcoin. 'o act#a""( )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s p"ed.ed :;. And t&en EFC p"ed.ed :;. And 'am +rom GN$ !iner6 Yea&, &e p"ed.ed :; as we"". and t&en -rade&i"" p"ed.ed 9;. And t&en we &ave Bitcoin9;;, w&ic& is a"wa(s avai"a2"e +or 9; 2itcoin. And t&en a2o#t =; peop"e a"so pitc&ed in a2o#t 9 2itcoin. 'o it was kind o+ a comm#na" e++ort. )#st a s&ock 2( &ow m#c& demand t&ere is to see someone "ike PB' .et 2e&ind 2itcoin.

AL -&at act#a""( e4ceeds t&e n#m2er (o# .oin. +or, ri.&t6 Beca#se at t&e end o+ t&e con+erence we ended a "itt"e 2it ear"( 2eca#se one o+ t&e speakers didn/t s&ow #p. $&ristian D#mont 0 2e"ieve....

'! 8&... +rom Food"er!

AL Yea&

'!

Yo# wanted to ta"k to &im.

AL 0 know! 1e/ve 2een tr(in. to sc&ed#"e wit& &im. Beca#se a.ain t&e( &ave a rea""( interestin. #se case and t&at/s w&at &e was s#pposed to 2e speakin. a2o#t t&ere 2#t as +ar as 0 #nderstand it so#nds "ike &e missed two +"i.&ts 2( comin. &ere and did not make it in.

'! Yea&, 0 can #nderstand t&at it/s eas( to .et "ost in New York and it/s eas( to...

AL 0t/s eas( to not .et to New York too apparent"(.

'! Yea&, tota""(. 1e"" &ope+#""( we/"" 2e a2"e to catc& #p wit& &im "ater.

AL Yo# know, a.ain, it seems "ike t&e(/re &avin. a "ot o+ s#ccess wit& t&e space so t&ere/s no incentive +or t&em to "eave.

'! 0 3#st saw somet&in. sa(in. t&at t&eir 2itcoin orders. 'o it/s a t&in. w&ere (o# can order take%o#t. And t&e( take o#t 2itcoin. 'o (o# can take o#t "oca""( wit& 2itcoin and 0 3#st saw an artic"e a2o#t it and apparent"( t&e 2itcoin orders &ave .rown and trip"ed over t&e "ast mont& or somet&in..

AL 'o o+ co#rse t&e 5#estion wit& t&at a"wa(s is w&at were t&e( to 2e.in

wit&6 Beca#se trip"in....

'! Yea&, we &ad 9 2itcoin order "ast mont&, now we &ave 3. ("a#.&ter)

AL 'o it/s a"" kind o+ re"ative w&en (o#/re ta"kin/ a2o#t a2stract n#m2ers "ike t&at. 'o, "et/s ta"k a2o#t t&e con+erence. 0 mean t&at was certain"( somet&in. is t&at we did see a "ot o+ A'0$s t&ere. 0 don/t t&ink an(2od( spoke a2o#t A'0$s. -&is was not rea""( a tec&nica" event, t&is was more on t&e re.#"ator( side o+ t&in.s.

'! Yea&, or 3#st #m, "ike an intro, "ike. -&e( rea""( did tr( to make it +riend"( to peop"e w&o &ad no idea w&at 2itcoin was. -&e ke(note speaker was $&ar"ie '&rem so &e spoke +irst t&in. in t&e mornin. and act#a""( 0 was seated ri.&t in +ront o+ &is parents and so t&at was coo" 2eca#se 0 .ot to meet &is parents. e was sa(in. t&at &e +o#nded Bit0nsant , 3#st a (o#n. .#(. e/s on"( =3 (ears o"d. )#st ama7in. w&at &e/s done wit& Bit0nstant in t&at time. B#t &e was sa(in. &e .ot "a#.&ed o#t o+ ever( vent#re capita" +irm t&at &e tried to pitc& t&e idea to 2ack severa" (ears a.o. 3 (ears a.o 0 t&ink. 1&en &e was tr(in. to start Bit0nstant. 'o, &e &ad to act#a""( .et t&e start#p +#ndin. +rom &is !om. And so s&e was standin. #p and s&e was "ike woo&oo!

AL -&e n#m2er t&o#.& % t&at was t&e t&in. t&at s#rprised me. 0 ass#med t&at t&ere was more cost 2e&ind Bit0nstant 2#t &e said t&at

'! 9;,;;; do""ars.

AL

(ea&, H9;,;;; to start Bit0nstant.

'! Yea&. 0/m s#re &e didn/t &ave an o++ice in !an&attan at +irst.

AL 0 mean o2vio#s"(, 2#t it 3#st .oes to s&ow t&e 2arrier to entr( on t&ese properties even so even wit& somet&in. "ike t&at w&ere (o#/re act#a""( inter+acin. wit& t&e monetar( side o+ it is not t&at e4pensive #nti" (o# .et to re.#"ator( comp"iance. And once (o# .et to re.#"ator( comp"iance t&e cost .oes t&ro#.& t&e roo+ and (o# s#dden"( need mi""ions o+ do""ars in order to pa( t&e 2onds, 3#st end"ess t&in.s.

'! 0 t&ink t&at/s rea""( important to point o#t 2eca#se it/s rea""(... a"read( we don/t rea""( &ave re.#"ation% is m#c& a2o#t 2itcoin 2#t 3#st t&e t&o#.&t t&at t&ere co#"d 2e re.#"ations a2o#t 2itcoin is sti+"in. a "ot o+ 2itcoin 2#siness. And we saw on t&e% t&ere was a vent#re capita"ist pane" act#a""( o+ severa" investors w&o were eit&er &ad invested in 2itcoin 2#sinesses or &ad invested in 2itcoin persona""( or were p"annin. on it. And one o+ t&e t&in.s t&e( said t&at t&e( wo#"d avoid t&at was "ike a red +"a. +or 2itcoin 2#sinesses t&at t&e( wo#"d not want to +#nd a 2#siness was i+ t&e( &ad 2asica""( "ike re.#"ations &an.in. over t&eir &ead or "ike re.#"ator( "ia2i"ities. 'o 2asica""( e4c&an.es and t&in.s t&at co#"d 2e potentia""( considered mone( services 2#sinesses or an(t&in. "ike t&at.

)! And so at one o+ m( week"( entreprene#rs&ip meetin.s re.#"ation is t&e ta"k o+ t&e town. Beca#se t&ere is t&is tremendo#s incentive +or (ina#di2"e 39::>) to not want to invest in somet&in. +or w&ic& (o# can/t 5#anti+( t&e risk +or. And i+ (o# don/t &ave (o#r re.#"ation down (o#/re 3#st a risk( 2et.

'!

Yea& it doesn/t matter &ow .reat (o#r 2#siness is and t&at 3#st str#ck me as so #n+air. Yo# co#"d &ave an ama7in. idea +or a 2#siness and t&ese 2#rea#crats are 3#st .onna .et in (o#r wa( . And (o# won/t 2e a2"e to .et +#ndin..

AL an. on a second. 0t/s not +air, 'tep&anie. 0t/s not +air6 No, o+ co#rse it/s not +air. 0t/s not s#pposed to 2e +air.

)! And (o# know, t&ere/s reason w&( +inance &asn/t c&an.ed t&at m#c& in America. And it/s 2eca#se o+ w&at/s &appenin. &ere.

'! Yea&, wit& t&e re.#"ations. E4act"(. Ever(2od( sa(s t&e C' is t&e "east +riend"( environment +or an( 2#siness t&at invo"ves mone(.

)! And 0 act#a""( t&ink t&at 2itcoin mi.&t 2e t&e canar( in t&e mind to sa( t&at, J-&is mi.&t 2e t&e point w&ere pro.ress and innovation needs to "eave America in order to s#cceed.J Beca#se 0/ve 2een &avin. weeks and weeks o+ disc#ssions wit& re.#"ators and 0 m(se"+ was scared awa( +rom startin. a compan( 3#st 2eca#se 0 wo#"d 2e a mone( transmitter and wo#"d need &#ndreds o+ t&o#sands o+ do""ars to start m( idea w&en rea""( t&e costs were #nder 9; .rand to .et it started.

'! 1e"" &ow man( peop"e &ave t&e same e4perience.

)! And so man( 0/m ta"kin. to t&em and t&e answer is a"wa(s, J1e"" (o# know Eric and *a2e and t&e 2#nc&, down in Panama, tota""(, t&e(/"" &ook (o# #p. -&e(/"" .ive (o# a p"ace to cras& +or a 2it #nti" (o# +ind

somew&ere and Panama is ri.&t t&ere, ;F income ta4, we co#"d do it .#(s.J

'! And (o# know a2o#t $oinap#"t.

)! Yes $oinap#"t.

'! -&at/s t&e compan( Eric Ior&ees... Yea& t&at rea""( stood o#t to me, 0 mean 3#st t&e +oc#s on w&ere is t&is .onna .o +rom a re.#"ator( standpoint and 0 +ee" rea""( sad a2o#t t&at. 0 "ove to see t&ese 2#sinesses .rowin.. And we &ave s#c& an ama7in. tec&no"o.( t&at co#"d do so m#c& +or +reedom in t&e wor"d, +or convenience. 0t 3#st opens #p so man( possi2i"ities it rea""( is t&e +#t#re o+ mone( +or a reason 2eca#se it/s so m#c& 2etter t&an w&at we/ve .ot ri.&t now. $redit cards were .reat, t&e( were an innovation 2#t t&at was E; or 3; (ears a.o, ri.&t6 At t&is point6 And so, (o# know, it/s time +or somet&in. new and 0 wo#"d "ike it to 2e a2"e to 3#st .o and see w&at &appens wit& it. B#t it seems "ike t&ere/s a storm c"o#d t&at ma( 2e &o"din. a "ot o+ peop"e 2ack.

AL Yea&, (o# know, 0 mean, 0 t&ink t&at% 8k, so in addition to t&e I$, in addition to t&e miners t&at we saw, t&e miner man#+act#rers t&at we saw: we a"so saw a w&o"e 2#nc& o+ "aw(ers. -&is was rea""(, 0 was s#rprised 2( &ow we"" represented t&e( were. And (o# know we saw t&e +irm t&at did t&e..

'! 8& rea""(, t&e "aw(ers were act#a""( we"" represented6

AL

1e were act#a""( sittin. in +ront o+ a .ent"eman w&o represents t&e on"ine BAA 0 t&ink is &is pro3ect. 0t/s o#t o+ 'o#t& A+rica 2#t t&e( &ave 3,;;; "aw(ers w&o &e speaks to and (o# know, &e was t&ere 3#st "earnin. a2o#t 2itcoins. 'o we ta"ked to &im +or a rea""( "on. time. e was ver( interested. -&e(/re a"so into permac#"t#re. $r(sta" and &is wi+e. Yea&, $r(sta" spoke to t&em a2o#t permac#"t#re, m( wi+e persona""(. '&e/s t&e en.ineerK

'! '&e/s awesome. '&e/s o#r prod#cer.

AL '&e/s o#r prod#cer. Cm, 2#t (ea& t&e( were we"" represented. 0n t&e ta"ks it seemed "ike t&ere was a t&eme t&at 0 was a "itt"e 2it dist#r2ed 2(. 1&ic& is t&at 2itcoin +#ndamenta""( &as to c&an.e in order to work in t&e "on. term.

'! Yea&, 0 saw t&at, and 0 t&ink t&at 0 tota""( t&ink t&at/s inspired 2( t&e re.#"ations t&at peop"e +ear are comin.. And so t&e(/re "ike, J1e"", (o# know it/s not so 2ad i+ we don/t make it anon(mo#s and we i+ we don/t ca#se c&ar.e2acks and i+ we 2#i"d c&ar.e2acks into 2itcoin w&at/s t&e 2i. dea"6 1&at/s t&e 2i. dea" is it/s not 2itcoin an( more.

)! 1e"" 0 t&ink it/s eas( to con+#se a 2#siness opport#nit( to +#ndamenta" c&an.es to 2itcoin itse"+. 'o t&ese peop"e t&at/s w&at 2#sinesses are +or. Yo# see a "itt"e .ap and (o# +i"" t&at nic&e. 'o 0 t&ink t&at a "ot o+ t&ese are 3#st .oin. to 2e a 2itcoin 2ack in 2#siness t&at are .oin. to +i"" t&e capacit( to +aci"itate c&ar.e2acks.

AL 1e"" 0 t&ink t&at/s t&e &ope is t&at (o# wind #p wit& somet&in. "ike t&at. 0s t&at (o# wind #p wit& "ike an ins#rance t(pe o+ s(stem w&ere merc&ants s#2scri2e and pa( a +ee. And t&en t&ere/s t&e a2i"it( to do

vo"#ntar( c&ar.e2acks and t&en (o# &ave a t&ird%part( ar2itrator w&o can essentia""( come in and mediate t&at.

'! 0t can &appen wit& escrow services now t&o#.&. -&ere are some, 0 mean t&at are startin....

AL Yes, t&at/s tr#e, t&at/s tr#e, 2#t a.ain. Yo# add "a(ers o+ cost to t&is t&in. ever( time (o# do st#++.

)! Ai.&t.

AL And 0 mean, and t&at a.ain is t&e pro2"em. -&at over t&e "on. term t&e 5#estion is, are we t&rowin. t&e 2a2( o#t wit& t&e 2at& water 2( tr(in. to +i4 t&ese pro2"ems are we in +act r#inin. t&e s(stem as a w&o"e.

'! Yea&, t&is revo"#tionar( tec&no"o.( t&at is comp"ete"( di++erent +rom t&e Le.ac( Bankin. '(stem is so .reat! 1e 3#st need to make it a "itt"e more "ike t&e Le.ac( Bankin. '(stem to make it 2etter. Yea&, and 0 was dist#r2ed 2( t&e wa( it was presented in a "ot o+ t&e ta"ks t&at 0 saw. 1e need to do t&is. Yo# know, "ike it/s not so 2ad. Let/s 3#st tie o#r identities to a"" o+ o#r 2itcoin addresses and p#t a socia" sec#rit( n#m2er on it. Let/s "ike, (o# know .et rid o+ t&e irreversi2i"it( o+ transactions! And we need to do t&is, or e"se 2itcoin wi"" never .et mainstreamed #p. And 0 disa.ree wit& t&at. And 0 was sad to see t&at sort o+, 0 .#ess t&e( wo#"d pro2a2"( sa(, we"" we/re 2ein. pra.matic. Beca#se t&is is .onna &ave to &appen an(wa( i+ 2itcoin is .onna s#cceed. 1e"" 0/m .onna take t&e idea"ist position as 0 a"wa(s do. And 0 3#st want to p#t it o#t t&ere and sa(, 0 don/t t&ink t&at &as to &appen. And we can #se 2itcoin as it was initia""( intended and t&ere are

certain"( #ses +or 2itcoin t&at don/t invo"ve sacri+icin. some o+ t&ose .reat t&in.s a2o#t 2itcoin.

AL Ai.&t, and (o# know t&e option is a"wa(s t&ere i+ (o# want to create comp"( coin. 0 t&ink t&at t&at

'! ("a#.&s) $omp"( $oin! Yea&, t&at wo#"d 2e a .reat market idea.

AL -&ere/s a &#.e nic&e +or t&at 0 t&ink.

'! 'ad"( 0 t&ink t&ere are "ots o+ peop"e w&o wo#"d &ear it and t&e(/d sa(, J8&, o& .ood(, 0 can do ever(t&in. t&e re.#"ators want me to do.J

AL Beca#se 0 t&o#.&t... it does e4ist it/s ca""ed Aipp"e.

)! A&, t&ere (o# .o. 1e"" even Aipp"e &as some pro2"ems 2eca#se it is sti"" not anon(mo#s, 2eca#se it &as entr( points and e4it points w&ere t&ere/s identi+ication t&at asks..

'! 1&at do peop"e critici7e Aipp"e +or6 $an (o# 3#st .ive #s overview on t&at6 Beca#se 0 t&ink a "ot o+ o#r "isteners don/t even know w&at Aipp"e is "et a"one #nderstand t&e criticisms o+ it so "et/s ta"k a2o#t t&at.

)! 'o, 0/m ass#min. t&e(/re .reat entreprene#rs. 0/m not dispara.in. t&em. A"" t&e power to t&em +or tr(in. to 2etter t&e ecos(stem. B#t w&en it comes to "ookin. at a"ternative cr(pto c#rrencies t&ere are a co#p"e o+ ke( identi+iers as to w&et&er or not t&is is a scam. And w&en (o# app"( it to somet&in. "ike Aipp"e it kind o+ &as some warnin. si.na"s. 'o one o+ t&em is pre%minin.. 'o i+ (o#/re

'! Are (o# ta"kin. a2o#t LAP w&ic& is t&e c#rrenc( t&at Aipp"e #ses6

)! Yes.

'! 8ka(, so "et/s sa( w&at Aipp"e is +irst, 0 mean.

)! 'orr(.

'! 'o, Aipp"e is "ike, #m... ("a#.&s) so 0 don/t comp"ete"( #nderstand it eit&er so correct me i+ 0/m wron.. B#t, 2asica""( it/s a network w&ere (o# can easi"( convert di++erent c#rrencies. Let/s sa( (o# need to 2orrow H:; to .et some .roceries or somet&in.. Like, (o# co#"d tr#st some2od( w&o tr#sts some2od( e"se in $&ina and t&e( co#"d 2asica""( send % "oan (o# 2itcoins or "oan (o# Aipp"es or "oan (o# 1ans or w&atever and (o# co#"d .et (o#r H:;. And "ike Aipp"e is 3#st "ike t&e medi#m o+ e4c&an.e a"" t&e "endin. takes p"ace o#tside o+ Aipp"e 0 .#ess. B#t it/s 2asica""( a s(stem t&at/s 2#i"t on tr#st, networks 2etween peop"e and it/s a wa( to convert c#rrencies and e4c&an.e credit peer%to%peer.

AL Ai.&t, and o+ co#rse a"" t&ose t&in.s (o# sa( 2asica""( trans"ate to its de2t transmission network. 1&ere essentia""( (o#/re not. And t&is is w&( (o# can send do""ars t&ro#.& it so +ast. A.ain, (o# can send do""ars as +ast as (o# can send 2itcoin 2eca#se (o#/re not rea""( sendin. t&e do""ars. Yo#/re trans+errin. a de2t +rom somet&in. t&at (o# own and (o#/re app"(in. it to some2od( e"se.

)! And 0 t&ink w&en (o# "ook at Aipp"e it/s an ama7in. iterative step on o#r c#rrent 2ankin.B+inancia" s(stem.

AL -&is is, t&is is important.

)! And 0 "ook at it, and 0/m "ike, 0 know +ive (ears +rom now or t&ree (ears +rom now w&en con.ress is .onna start "ookin. at t&is space t&e(/re .onna 2e "ike, J1e"" w&( can/t (o# 2e "ike (o#r 2rot&er6 Aipp"e/s a2"e to do it &ow come (o# .#(s can/t do it6 $/mon 2itcoin, .et wit& it.J 'o 0 t&ink t&at ripp"e is a .reat transitor(, (o# know, transition into 2itcoin.

'! B#t t&at too", t&e de2t trans+er network e4ists o#tside o+ t&e cr(pto c#rrenc( Aipp"es. -&e cr(pto c#rrenc( is somew&at simi"ar to 2itcoin. Yo# know, ri.&t6 And t&at/s w&at (o# were ta"kin. a2o#t 2e+ore w&en (o# said t&ere/s a red +"a. 2eca#se t&e( pre%mined LAP and t&en were .ivin. t&em awa(, is t&at ri.&t6

)! Yea&.

'! 'o (ea&, .o on, contin#e wit& t&at.

)! 'o, 0 mean t&ere are a co#p"e o+ red +"a.s w&en (o# are "ookin. at cr(pto%c#rrencies t&at 3#st .et started and one o+ t&em is: &as t&e owner pre%mined it6 And i+ (o# "ook at t&e distri2#tion o+ Aipp"e t&at are in e4istence. Like :; peop"e own a si.ni+icant portion o+ t&e Aipp"e.

AL -&e( pre%mined a"" o+ t&em, didn/t t&e(.

)! Yea&. 0t/s 9;;F pre%mined.

AL B#t it/s a "itt"e 2it mis%"eadin. 2eca#se in t&e Aipp"e network (o#/re not rea""(, it/s not "ike 0/m .onna send =; ripp"es to (o# and t&en (o#/re .onna cas& t&e ripp"es. 0t/s more "ike Aipp"es are stamps. 1&ere it/s "ike an anti%spam mec&anism more t&an it is a va"#e trans+er mec&anic.

)! B#t 0 remem2er readin. somew&ere t&at i+ (o# "ooked at t&e c#rrent market price o+ a Aipp"e and t&en (o# m#"tip"ied it 2( t&e 9;;%2i""ion Aipp"es t&e( &ave or w&atever it is, t&at it was e5#a" to t&e va"#e o+ t&e market cap o+ t&e 2itcoin network.

AL 'o t&e( .ave t&emse"ves an impressive pre%market eva"#ation.

)! Yea& ("a#.&s). 'o 0 don/t know &ow t&at works, 2#t it kind o+ "ooks "ike t&e(/re a2"e to print mone( in m( opinion.

Break

AL Yo#/re "istenin. to Lets-a"kBitcoin. -&e premier a#diocast providin. news and insi.&ts t&at cover t&e rapid"( evo"vin. wor"d o+ di.ita" mone(. 8#r twice week"( s&ow inc"#de ana"(sis o+ "ate 2reakin. news, #pdates on ke(, tec&nica", 2#siness and re.#"ator( iss#es % and in% dept& interviews wit& t&e ke( peop"e drivin. t&e new di.ita" econom(. Lets-a"kBitcoin o++ers sponsors an attractive wa( to reac& a tar.eted and savv( a#dience. For more in+ormation emai" sponsors at Lets-a"kBitcoin.com.

Advertisement !ore t&an 3;;,;;; #sers and co#ntin. tr#st 2"ockc&ain.in+o. 0t/s a 2itcoin wa""et service and a wea"t& o+ 2itcoin in+ormation and is comp"ete"( +ree to #se. 1it& t&e B"ockc&ain.in+o wa""et, (o#/"" .et t&e convenience o+ a we2 wa""et, and t&e sec#rit( o+ a desktop c"ient. B"ockc&ain.in+o is a"so a 2"ock e4p"orer. Yo# can #se it to see 2itcoin transactions in rea" time, c&eck t&e 2a"ance o+ an( 2itcoin address, and do man( &and( 2itcoin c&arts, a"" +or +ree. 'ee w&at t&e( &ave to o++er toda(. At B"ockc&ain.in+o.

AL 0 t&ink t&at w&at (o# said t&ere a2o#t Aipp"e 2ein. an iterative step is rea""( important 2eca#se t&at/s t&e t&in.. 0s t&at, ,i+ Aipp"e &ad come o#t% and to a certain de.ree 0 t&ink t&is e4tends to open transactions too, 2eca#se it a"so is a de2t transition mec&anism 2eca#se. Yo# can/t % 2itcoin and cr(pto%c#rrencies are so +"#id 2eca#se t&e( don/t e4ist in rea" "i+e. 'o w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t assets t&at &ave rea" "i+e presence (o# simp"( can/t cram t&ose down and s&ove t&em t&ro#.& an internet connection. 'o it &as to 2e a de2t transition mec&anism in order to do t&at. B#t t&e t&in. is t&at wit& 2itcoin and wit& cr(pto% c#rrencies (o# don/t need to do t&at at a"". 0t/s #nnecessar(. And

especia""( w&en we move to a more di.ita" econom( w&ere t&e need to do t&at at a"" .oes awa( 2asica""(. 'o (o# know, a.ain, it/s one o+ t&ose t&in.s w&ere i+ t&e Aipp"e s(stem &ad come o#t 2e+ore 2itcoin we/d 2e &avin. a ver( di++erent conversation now. And now it/d pro2a2"( 2e Lets-a"kAipp"e. Beca#se 0 mean and a.ain, compared to t&e 2ankin. s(stem we &ave now it/s so m#c& more e++icient compared to cr(pto c#rrencies. 0t/s "ess compe""in..

)! 0 3#st t&ink t&at i+ t&e t&in. t&at 2itcoin does is +orce t&e c#rrent 2akin. paradi.m to move to Aipp"e and t&en t&e conversation is Aipp"e vs. 2itcoin. 0 t&ink t&at/s a +antastic wor"d to "ive in.

'! Yea&, 0 comp"ete"( a.ree.

AL And (o# know, t&at/s an interestin. point, 2eca#se (o# know t&at certain"( co#"d 2e % Aipp"e &as .otten a "ot o+ &i.&%pro+i"e investors. And t&at certain"( co#"d 2e t&e p"a( t&e( &ave in mind is t&at oka(, so (o#/ve .ot t&ese cr(pto%c#rrencies 2#t t&e(Mre kind o+ +"at"( incompati2"e wit& t&e e4istin. +inancia" s(stem so i+ we/re .onna move towards somet&in. t&at/s more "ike t&at t&en t&is is an intermediar( step t&at we can take t&at we know a"read( comp"ies and can 2e easi"( inte.rated in. And so t&en we 3#st se"" it essentia""( so+tware as a service to a"" t&ese 2ankin. instit#tions aro#nd t&e wor"d. Bo2/s (o#r #nc"e, (o# know we/re t&e de+acto center o+ it a"" a.ain. 0t/s a ver( interestin. space +or t&em to operate in ri.&t now 0 t&ink.

)! 1as t&ere someone +rom Aipp"e at t&e con+erence6

AL

Yes. 0/m not s#re i+ 0 ta"ked to an(one +rom Aipp"e. -&e coin t&in. and t&e open t&in., ver( ver( di++ic#"t. 'o man( companies t&ere &ave t&ose in t&e names. 0t/s "ike w&en 0 #sed to work in t&e .reen space and ever(2od( #sed to &ave "ike .reen or 2io or a"" t&ose ot&er nonsense. And it/s "ike a.ain, t&e +irst co#p"e companies t&at do it. -&at/s .reat. And t&en t&e ne4t E;; companies t&at do it % it/s con+#sin.!

'! 'o i+ (o# meet someone new and (o# +or.et w&at compan( t&e(/re wit& (o#/re "ike, J8& (ea&, (o#/re +rom coin...J 0/m "ike, JYea&, $oin Pe., Yea&.J

)! 0 saw 3 di++erent acco#ntants w&o &ad a p"a( on 2itcoin acco#ntant in t&e name. And 0 3#st co#"dn/t remem2er t&em 2eca#se t&e( were so simi"ar in t&e name.

'! 0 .ot some peop"e remem2erin. variations o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin act#a""( "ike. 'omeone .oes, J8&, (ea&. Yo#/re +rom Bitccoin-a"k.J And t&en someone .oes, JYo#/re +rom Bit-a"kLive.J. ("a#.&s) Lets-a"kBitcoin6 8& rea" 5#ick. 1&at/s t&e di++erence 2etween Aipp"e and 8pen $oin or 8pen transactions6

AL 8pen transactions. 'o Aipp"e is t&e prod#ct o+ a compan( ca""ed 8pen $oin. And 8pen transactions is a prod#ct o+ a compan( ca""ed !ono-oss. And we/ve interviewed $&ris 8dom 2e+ore,, &e .oes 2( Fe""ow -rave"er. e/s a pod.ener o+ t&at tec&no"o.(. 0 t&ink &e/s more o+ a marketer t&an a code .#(. B#t &e mana.ed to p#t it to.et&er to t&e point w&ere &e/s rea""( 2een a2"e to attract some attention. 0 know t&at t&e( eit&er &ave 3#st +#nded or t&e( are in t&e process o+ +#ndin. ri.&t now and are raisin. a prett( decent amo#nt o+ capita" 2eca#se a.ain. -&ere/s a "ot o+... (o# know a.ain, w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t t&ese s(stems it/s so m#c& easier to comp"( wit& t&ese vario#s de2t trans+er mec&anisms 2eca#se t&e( inte.rate so m#c& 2etter so (o#

know a.ain t&at/s w&ere a "ot o+ t&e mone( seems "ike it/s .oin.. -&at and a"tcoins too, t&ere are some a"tcoins t&at are .ettin. some traction.

'! 0 ta"k to a "itecoin deve"oper (esterda(, and t&ere were some "itecoin peop"e t&ere, and t&e( were so coo" and p"easant to ta"k to. And 0 was "ike 0 can/t wait to see w&ere t&e(/re .oin.. 0 t&ink we/re .onna &ave an interview wit& 1orm w&o is one o+ t&e "itecoin dev/s to ta"k a2o#t t&e new re"ease and w&at t&e(/re .oin. to do wit& "itecoin in t&e +#t#re. And 0/m 3#st impressed wit& "ike... t&ere/s more in+rastr#ct#re t&at/s comin. o#t. Not 3#st wit& "itecoins 2#t wit& a"" t&ese di++erent a"tcoins. A "ot o+ t&ese coins are w&ere 2itcoin was a co#p"e o+ (ears a.o. And 0 t&ink peop"e see t&at and ma(2e +ee" "ike t&e( missed t&e 2oat or w&atever. -&e( .ot in too "ate and t&e( want to .et in. 0 t&ink we/re sti"" ver( ear"( in t&e adoption c#rve o+ even 2itcoin. B#t it/s temptin., (o# see an a"t coin and it "ooks "ike it &as potentia", (o# know, (o# wanna .et in on t&e .ro#nd +"oor and see w&at it does.

AL E4act"(, (o# know t&e m#"tip"ier is 3#st so enormo#s. A.ain, (o# "ook at 2itcoin, certain"( a m#"tip"ier. 0t co#"d 2e enormo#s ass#min. (o# &ave a w&o"e 2#nc& o+ &#ndred do""ars to t&row at 2#(in. some 2itcoin. B#t (o# know, wit& t&e a"ts, t&e 2#( in, (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t pennies,. And t&e potentia" is sti"" t&ere +or t&at price increase. 1e don/t ta"k a2o#t t&e price 2#t +rom a spec#"ative standpoint, it seems "ike i+ (o# co#"d identi+( t&e ri.&t a"ts t&at act#a""( &ave t&e ri.&t c&aracteristics to .ive #s a c&ance o+ makin. it 2i., t&at is rea""( w&ere t&e e4ponentia" potentia" is +or a ver( sma"" investment to convert into a 2i. one.

'! Yea&, and 0 remem2er one o+ o#r +irst episodes o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin, 0 want to sa( it was "ike 3 or E. 1e ta"ked a2o#t a"tcoins and we .ave a r#ndown o+ some o+ t&e most pop#"ar ones. 1e"" even now 3#st a +ew mont&s "ater, t&ere are &#ndreds o+ a"tcoins. And no2od( can keep t&em strai.&t. 0 was ta"kin. to some2od( (esterda(, and 0 said so w&at are t&e( ot&er script%2ased a"tcoins6 And &e said o&! -&ere are at "east E; 0 can name o++ t&e top o+ m( &ead. 0 said E;6 0 on"( know o+

"ike =!

)! Y/know, it/s a testament to t&e space t&at 0/m kind o+ eatin. m( words. 'evera" mont&s a.o 0/d kind o+ make +#n o+ "itecoin, and now t&e disc#ssion is, ma(2e 2eca#se o+ minin. centra"i7ation 2itcoin needs to 2ecome more "ike "itecoin. 'o (o# know (o#/re seein. t&e +ree market at work 2eca#se w&en (o# a""ow peop"e to do w&atever it is t&e( want to do in t&e space, t&e market "eader &as to "earn +rom t&e trai".

'! 0 t&ink it/s rea""( important to keep an open mind. 0+ (o# "ike t&e concept o+ 2itcoin, or i+ (o# 3#st "ike t&e concept o+ cr(pto%c#rrenc( in .enera", i+ (o# "ike an(t&in. a2o#t it. Aea"i7e t&at t&ere/s t&e potentia" % "ike, we/re sti"" +i.#rin. t&is o#t and ma(2e it/s 2itcoin, ma(2e it/s "itecoin, ma(2e it/s some ot&er coin, or ma(2e it/s .onna 2e a 2#nc& o+ di++erent coins. -&at/s .onna predominate. $omin. #p.

AL over t&e "ast = mont&s 0/ve rea""( .one +rom t&ere can 2e on"( one camp to rea"i7in. t&at/s pro2a2"( act#a""( not .oin. to 2e t&e case. And it/s 2eca#se (2eep) &appens, and st#++ c&an.es, and w&en t&in.s c&an.e. And (o# know, t&at/s t&e t&in., is t&at "ike, w&en t&in.s c&an.e it/s .onna &appen +ast. 'o now w&at 0 &ave kind o+ over t&e "ast +ew weeks come to 2e"ieve is t&at ri.&t now we/re in essentia""( a 2e"ie+ 2#22"e. 1&ere ever(2od( "ooks at t&e cr(pto c#rrenc( space. And 2eca#se it/s so new t&e( "ook and t&e( sa(, oka(, 2itcoin is t&e one. And t&en t&ere/s a"" t&ese ot&er ones. -&e( don/t matter. And t&e( don/t matter ri.&t now. B#t it/s 2eca#se peop"e on"( "ook at 2itcoin. 1&at/s .onna &appen is t&e(/re .onna see some destr#ctive c&an.es comin. in 2itcoin/s +#t#re w&et&er or not t&e deve"opin. team "ikes it and 0 t&ink t&at we/re pro2a2"( .oin. to wind #p seein. t&at i""#sion to t&at 2#22"e .et popped. -&e i""#sion dispe""ed and at t&at point s#dden"( it wi"" 2e a w&o"e new 2a"" .ame i+ (o# start an a"t. And itM"" 2e m#c& more a2o#t t&e merits o+ (o#r c#rrenc( rat&er t&an a2o#t w&et&er or not (o#/ve a"read( ac&ieved an (ina#di2"e (:;:=9). A.ain, 2eca#se t&ere/s t&at potentia" +or t&e e4ponentia" m#"tip"ier o+ ver( sma"" investments to convert into ver( "ar.e ones.

'! -&ere is somet&in. to 2e said +or ac&ievin. t&e network e++ect t&o#.&.

AL $ertain"(. 0t/s no sma"" 2arrier 0 don/t mean to sa( t&at.

)! Essentia""( w&at (o#/re sa(in. is we/re waitin. +or 2itcoin to &ave its !t. *o4 event.

AL Ai.&t, e4act"(, 2#t (o# can t&ink a2o#t it "ike t&is. 1&en 2itcoin &as its !t. *o4 event instead o+ a"" t&e mone( in !t. *o4 2ein. "ocked down, 2itcoin is tota""( "i5#id. 'o it/s ver( ver( eas( to 3#st (2eep) s"ip into t&e ne4t one. 0 &ave to edit t&at. 0/ve 2een swearin. +or t&e "ast co#p"e o+ da(s...

)! 0t/s New York it does it to (o#. ("a#.&) 0 mean 2#t (ea&, (o# &ad a compan( t&at &ad ever(t&in. .oin. +or it. 0t &ad @;%somet&in. percent o+ t&e space and t&ro#.& a series o+ #n+ort#nate events, t&at wo#"d &ave &appened to an(one w&o % t&e point a2o#t a trai"2"a7er.

'! 0t took a "ot o+ #n+ort#nate events t&o#.&, 0 mean once it .ot to t&e critica" point it was &ard to knock it down o++ t&e pedesta", ri.&t6

)! Ai.&t, and 0 mean t&e same co#"d 2e said a2o#t 2itcoin +or e4amp"e, peop"e "ike to +or.et t&at 2itcoin is ;.> version ri.&t now. 0t is sti"" a 2eta. 0t is a m#"ti%2i""ion do""ar 2eta. And, w&at/s to stop some random error t&at no one &as seen 3#st wreckin. t&e w&o"e t&in.6

AL 8&, so we s&o#"d ta"k a2o#t t&at. 8n t&at note, so we &ad some conversation +rom some miners, 'tep&anie 0 know t&at (o# interviewed. 0 &ad some conversations o++ t&e record wit& some peop"e a2o#t t&is kind o+ 5#estion. 'peci+ica""( a2o#t, we ta"ked a2o#t 8PE$ was it6

'! 8 E$

AL 8& &eck, o& &eck, t&at was it.

'! 8r.ani7ation asin. Power E4porters

AL Yea&, t&at/s ri.&t, so some peop"e didn/t #nderstand w&at we were ta"kin. a2o#t. 0t was kind o+ a 3oke, 2eca#se, t&e o& &eck was kind o+ a 3oke. Beca#se in order +or t&at... in case (o# &aven/t "istened to t&e "ast episode w&ere we ta"ked a2o#t t&is, 2asica""( GN$ miner re"eased a statement sa(in. t&at t&e( were .oin. to stop s&ippin. A'0$ #nits +rom Novem2er t&ro#.& N9 o+ =;9E wit& t&e idea 2ein. t&at t&is wo#"d protect t&e investment o+ t&e peop"e w&o &ave p#rc&ased e5#ipment comin. 2e+ore 2eca#se in N= t&e(/re .oin. to re"ease, and t&e( co#"d in N9 2#t t&e(/re .onna &o"d it #nti" N=... #m, are .oin. to re"ease &ardware t&at is orders o+ ma.nit#de c&eaper and +aster t&an w&at peop"e &ave previo#s"( ordered. And so i+ t&e( were to re"ease it at t&e pace o+ tec&no"o.( t&en t&e peop"e w&o were .ettin. t&is minin. &ardware wo#"d 2e a"most instant"( o2so"ete and &ave no opport#nit( to earn t&eir mone( 2ack. And o+ co#rse t&at/s 2ad i+ (o#/re a 2#siness t&at tries to &ave c#stomers t&at 2#( (o#r prod#ct i+ (o#/re iteratin. so +ast wit& t&e tec&no"o.( t&at peop"e can/t even &ave a c&ance to make 2ack t&eir investment.

)! A"t&o#.& 0 wo#"d "ike to sa( in t&is space t&at 0 persona""( t&ink t&at/s a .reat marketin. pitc& +or t&eir compan( 2#t t&at i+ (o# "ook at w&at &appened in t&e past wit& EFC o+ Ava"on. e &ad said &e( "ook, we/re t&e market "eader 3#st 2eca#se 0 &ad no idea t&at ever( sin."e ot&er compan( wo#"dn/t s&ip. 1&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t &ow s#ccess+#" (o#/re .onna 2e at e4ec#tin. in t&is space it/s a space t&at &as a "ot o+ peop"e not e4ec#tin.. 'o 0 3#st t&ink t&at i+ t&e( co#"d do w&at t&e( sa( t&e(/re .onna do t&e( s&o#"d 3#st do it. Beca#se e4ec#tin. in t&is space is so rare t&at 0 t&ink t&e market needs t&at more t&an it needs someone 2ein. it/s Batman. -&e protector it ma( not need 2#t it needs... it doesn/t know 2#t it wants.

AL Yo# know 0 a.ree wit& (o# t&ere, 2#t t&at/s t&e t&in.. 1&en ta"kin. wit& t&ese .#(s 0 spoke wit& t&e .#( 'am +rom.. was t&at &is name6

'! 'am.

AL 'am +rom GN$. And a"so t&ere were one or two ot&er A'0$ man#+act#rers w&ose names 0 didn/t catc& in t&is "itt"e conversation we were &avin.. Yo# know t&at (o#/re .onna &ave to .et to.et&er wit& a"" t&e ot&er p"a(ers o#t t&ere and (o# .#(s are a"" .onna &ave to stop s&ippin.,

'! Yea&, "ike a carte".

AL Yea&, e4act"( e4act"(. And &e was "ike, (ea& 0 know. -&en we started ta"kin. a2o#t &ow, &e started te""in. me &ow it was .ood +or 2itcoin

and &ow t&e( were 3#st .oin. to .et to.et&er and t&e(/d +i.&t +or t&ree mont&s and t&en t&e(/d 2e "ike ok .#(s, "et/s .o 2ack and re%work o#r tec&no"o.(. -&en we/"" come 2ack t&ree mont&s "ater. 1e/"" +i.&t a.ain. 'o we/"" &ave t&ese on and o++ a.ain re"ease sc&ed#"e t&at/s coordinated t&ro#.&o#t t&e space. And so a.ain, &e +e"t % we t&o#.&t it was a 3oke. 1e t&o#.&t it was a marketin. p"a(. At "east 0 certain"( did w&en we were ta"kin. a2o#t it 2e+ore. 'peakin. wit& t&ese .#(s, t&e( were dead serio#s a2o#t it. -&at is t&eir p"an. 0 mean, do (o# t&ink t&e( can p#"" it o++6

'! 8&, .os&. 0 mean, a "ot o+ t&e ot&er companies were sa(in., (ea& 0 t&ink we/"" p"a(. 0 t&ink we/"" do t&at.

AL Yea&, )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s, (ea& said somet&in.. Basica""(, so 0 was "ike (o# know, so t&ese .#(s are .onna tr( to do t&is, 0 spoke to t&em separate"(.

'! B#t 0 .#ess t&e 5#estion is, is t&ere some ot&er compan( o#t t&ere w&o is 2ein. comp"ete"( 5#iet, and is tota""( o++ t&e radar is a wi"d card and is .oin. to come #p wit& some power+#" A'0$ d#rin. t&at time +rame. And t&at co#"d t&row a wrenc& in ever(2od(/s work. GN$ said t&at i+ some2od( does t&at t&e(/re .onna contin#e to re"eae t&eir devices as 2est t&e( can.

AL Ai.&t, e4act"(, e4act"(, so t&at/s t&e t&in., i+ t&e carte" +ai"s, t&en ever(2od( is 3#st +ree +or a"" wi"d west a.ain, ever(2od( re"eases as +ast as t&e( can. And o+ co#rse t&en t&e 5#estion 2ecomes w&at/s t&e 2a"ance 2etween re"easin. so t&at (o#/re t&e +irst one o#t and (o#/re t&e +irst. Beca#se ot&erw% i+ (o#/re t&e "ast man o#t t&e door, t&en c&ance are prett( .ood. Peop"e w&o are e4cited a2o#t 2#(in. t&at especia""( wit& as +ast as t&e tec& is movin. are not .oin. to &ave an( reason to 2#( (o#r prod#ct. Cn"ess t&ere/s a materia" advanta.e. And it doesn/t rea""( seem "ike an(one is .oin. o#t o+ t&eir wa(. 1&at 0/ve

2een waitin. +or is a tr#"( p"#.%n%p"a( A'0$ so"#tion. And as +ar as 0/m concerned we sti"" &ave (et to see an(t&in. "ike t&at.

)! Yo# know t&e Ava"on at Bit0nstant &as 2een not opera2"e in t&e past co#p"e o+ weeks 3#st 2eca#se it 2roke and no one knows &ow to +i4 it. 'o t&e one 2itcoin per da( t&at it co#"d 2e makin. +or t&e +o#ndation.

'! 0s t&at w&( (0+#) is &ere to +i4 it6

)! Yea&, t&at/s w&( &e came 2ack +rom $&ina. 'o t&e(/re 3#st "ike a&&&, t&e( c"ear"( &ave ot&er t&in.s t&at t&e( &ave to dea" wit&.

AL Ai.&t, we"".

)! -&ese t&in.s are comp"icated.

AL -&e( are!

'! 0/ve seen a pict#re o+ t&at t&in. and it/s +#nn( 2eca#se "ike (o# see A'0$s advertised on"ine and it/s "ike a s"eek "itt"e 2"ack 2o4 wit& (o# know a C'D ca2"e comin. o++ o+ it. -&is t&in. "ooks "ike... 0 don/t know, it "ooks "ike a printin. press. 0t/s 2i., it/s "ike open, it doesn/t &ave a nice case or an(t&in. 2#t it works. 8r at "east it did work #nti" 3#st a co#p"e weeks a.o. B#t, (ea&, t&at was a w&i"e a.o t&at t&e +irst 2atc&

o+ Ava"on A'0$s s&ipped, so it/s 2een opera2"e +or a w&i"e.

)! Yea&, t&e( &ad a .ood r#n.

'! Yea&, de+inite"(. -&e( were in a .reat position. B#t 0 mean 'am was sa(in. +rom GN$ miner t&at t&is is act#a""( .ood +or 2itcoin. 0t/s not centra"i7in. it/s act#a""( t&at t&e(/re tr(in. to .et A'0$s into t&e &ands o+ as man( peop"e as possi2"e. -&e avera.e person, and &e was sa(in. t&at A'0$s are a rea"it(, ever(one/s .oin. to 2e &avin. t&em at some point, and we/re .onna tr( and .et t&em into as man( &ands as possi2"e so t&at t&e minin. power is distri2#ted.

)! 'o (o# .#(s were on one o+ w&at 0 wo#"d sa( one o+ t&e most interestin. pane"s. )onat&an and 'tep&anie, (o# .#(s were 2ot& on t&e Bitcoin O Free 'peec&, moderated 2( o#r .ood +riend !ark os&tein +rom American Banker.

'! Yea&, &e was so coo". 0 .ot to know &im t&e ot&er ni.&t, (ea& &e was rea""( +#n to ta"k to.

)! !arks/ t&e man. 0/"" te"" (o# t&at.

'! -&at was a +#n pane". 1e .ot a "ot o+ positive +eed2ack on it. 0t was sort o+ a nice co#nter%2a"ance to a"" t&e peop"e sa(in. (ea& we need more re.#"ation. And we were "ike no, 2itcoin is +ree speec&!

)! Yea&, we"" 0 t&ink an( pane" t&at in E: min#tes ta"ks a2o#t prostit#tion, dr#.s and .#ns is doin. t&e ri.&t t&in. to 2itcoin.

'! 1e"" Adam .ot some a#dio o+ it so 0 t&ink (o#/"" 2e a2"e to &ear t&at prett( soon.

AL Yea& (ea& (ea&, it t#rns o#t t&e( weren/t +i"min. an( o+ t&e ta"ks t&ere. 'o 0 took t&e E!, t&at/s w&at we/re recordin. on ri.&t now, and 0 .ot a direct +eed o#t o+ t&e 2oard. And t&en o+ co#rse +or a2o#t &a"+ o+ t&em 0 +or.ot to press t&e 2#tton twice. Yo# &ad to press t&e 2#tton twice on t&is t&in. ot&erwise it doesn/t work. And 0 was r#nnin. aro#nd t&e entire time, 2#t 0 on"( ca#.&t ma(2e 3 or E o+ t&e ta"ks. B#t t&e ones t&at we did .et we are .oin. to 2e re"easin..

'! -&at/s .reat, (ea&. 0/m rea""( ."ad (o# did t&at. 0 wasn/t e4pectin. t&em not to 2e +i"min.. B#t ma(2e, (ea& ma(2e t&e ne4t event t&e( wi"".

AL 1e"", w&at 0% so a.ain, so t&is event was rea""( coo". 0 act#a""( t&o#.&t t&e event was prett( interestin., p#t on prett( we"". 0t was a "itt"e 2it more e4pensive t&an 0 wo#"d &ave "iked. 0 know some peop"e co#"dn/t attend 2eca#se t&e cost was simp"( prett( &i.& re"ative to t&e% (o# know, t&e 'an )ose con+erence was "ike H9>; +or a two da( event. -&is one i+ (o# .ot t&e ear"( 2ird price it was H=@@. 0+ (o# #sed o#r =;F co#pon it/s "ess t&an t&at.

'! For one da(.

AL For one da(. And at t&e door it was H:@@.

)! 1ow.

'! Aea""(6 0t was packed t&o#.&.

AL Yea&. 0t was packed. 0t was packed. And a.ain, over time peop"e more dri+ted o#t o+ t&e ta"ks and more into t&e networkin. area and t&at/s w&at &appened wit& 2ot& (o# and 0.

)! B#t t&e t&in. a2o#t t&ese con+erences is it kind o+ is a2o#t t&e price t&at t&e( c&ar.e 3#st 2eca#se t&e price is an indicator o+ &ow 2ad (o# want it.

AL we"" it determines t&e t(pe o+ a#dience t&at (o# .et.

)! -&at/s w&at 0/m sa(in., so (o# know t&at t&e ot&er person wanted it 2ad eno#.& to eit&er scam t&eir wa( into t&e con+erence as 0 &appened to &ave done. 8r to act#a""( &ave paid t&e +ee.

'! 0t/s not scammin. we .ave t&em somet&in. o+ va"#e.

)! -r#e. -&at/s tr#e.

'! 'o (ea&, 2ack to t&e pane". 'o 0 t&o#.&t it was rea""( coo" 2eca#se we .ot to ta"k a2o#t wiki"eaks and some o+ t&e potentia" 2itcoin &as to &e"p or.ani7ations t&at mi.&t 2e mar.ina"i7ed. And t&e idea o+ 2itcoin ne#tra"it( w&ic& is somet&in. 0 know is rea""( interestin. to Andreas so 0/m c#rio#s to &ear &is t&o#.&ts a2o#t t&at. B#t t&e idea o+ ne#tra"it( 2ein.% (o# know, i+ (o# &ave a tec&no"o.( "ike 2itcoin t&at an(2od( can #se,, t&at/s 3#st it! An(2od( can #se it, ri.&t6 'o some peop"e, t&e(/re .onna 2e peop"e (o# don/t "ike, t&at #se it. And t&e(/re .onna #se it +or t&in.s t&at (o# don/t "ike. B#t t&ere are a"so .onna 2e peop"e w&o are .reat w&o #se it, and w&o #se it +or t&in.s t&at (o# do "ike. And (o# can/t .et rid o+ t&e so ca""ed 2ad peop"e wit&o#t .ettin. rid o+ ever(2od(/s privac( and +reedom. 'o...

AL Ai.&t, t&is is t&e t&eme t&at comes #p over and over and over a.ain. And it was ta"ked a2o#t in (o#r pane" prett( e4tensive"(. -&e idea 2ein. t&at i+ t&e point is to protect #s +rom crime, and to protect t&e wor"d +rom certain t(pes o+ t&in.s "ike terrorism, &#man tra++ickin. and t&in.s "ike t&at. -&en t&at/s a"" we"" and .ood. And t&at/s a no2"e .oa". B#t 'tep&anie, (o# &ad a .reat point. Yo# said it/s a"" a2o#t di++erentiatin. t&e transaction +rom t&e act#a" crime. And t&e di++erentiatin. +actor t&ere is t&at a crime &as a victim w&ereas a +inancia" transaction &as a recipient. -&at mi.&t 2e somet&in. t&at ena2"es t&e crime. B#t it/s t&e crime%

'! 8& p"ease, victimi7e me 2( sendin. me mone(.

AL B#t it/s a"" a2o#t esta2"is&in. t&at &arm is act#a""( done not t&at some2od( paid +or somet&in. t&at mi.&t &ave potentia""( ca#sed a

pro2"em down t&e road. Beca#se once (o# start doin. t&at it .ives (o# t&e rationa"e to start "istenin. to ever(2od( to start trackin. ever(t&in.. And t&at mi.&t make sense in some sort o+ weird A"ice 0n 1onder"and, t&ro#.& t&e "ookin. ."ass wor"d. B#t 0 t&ink in t&e wor"d we "ive in most peop"e wo#"d a.ree t&at i+ @@.@@F o+ peop"e aren/t doin. st#++ "ike t&at. And (o# know t&at sma"" percenta.e is % it pro2a2"( doesn/t make sense, is inconvenient and essentia""( remove t&e privac( o+ t&at @@.@@F t&at aren/t doin. t&ose 2ad t&in.s 3#st to tr( and stop or at "east detect. Beca#se t&at/s t&e ot&er t&in. o+ co#rse is t&at we/re not even ta"kin. a2o#t stoppin. t&ese t&in.s +rom &appenin.. 1e/re ta"kin. a2o#t p#nis&in. t&em. P#nis&in. t&em a+ter t&e +act so 0 mean it makes no sense. E4cept o+ co#rse in t&is A"ice 0n 1onder"and wor"d we "ive in.

)! Yo# know w&en t&e $E8 o+ Discover( was interviewed and t&e( .o w&at do (o# owe (o#r s#ccess to6 e said. Yo# know, s&arks and Na7is. And 0 kind o+ +ee" "ike w&en it comes to 2itcoins and w&en it comes to sec#rit(, it/s a"wa(s t&e terrorists and t&e pedop&i"es. And t&at/s a"wa(s t&e disc#ssion o+ ever(t&in. a"wa(s comes down to t&e . ;9F o+ 2ad actors t&at need to dictate t&e rest o+ t&e @@.@@F o+ t&e market. And it 3#st drives me insane 2eca#se w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t 2itcoin it/s, not&in. e4ists in t&e vac##m. 0t/s a"wa(s in compared to w&at. And w&en t&e .ent"eman asked t&at 5#estion o+..

'! Yea&, ri.&t, &ow man( cas& transactions are #sed in activities t&at potentia""( &#rt peop"e and do &ave victims and... 0 mean, 0 wo#"d ar.#e t&at 2#(in. dr#.s +or persona" cons#mption is a victim"ess crime.

)! Ai.&t (o# weren/t .oin. to win t&at ar.#ment t&ere.

'! 0 don/t know, 0 t&ink some peop"e were s(mpat&etic to #s. Especia""( t&e .#( w&o asked t&at 5#estion. B#t, #m, 2#t (ea&. 1&en (o#/re

ta"kin. a2o#t t&in.s t&at act#a""( are crimes, t&at act#a""( &ave a victim, t&at are ca#sin. &arm to peop"e. 8rders o+ ma.nit#de more o+ t&ose are done in cas& or are done t&ro#.& t&e "e.ac( 2ankin. s(stem. 0 mean, 0 t&ink 0 2ro#.&t #p t&e point on t&e pane" t&at dr#. dea"ers, "oan s&arks, t&e( &ave 2ank acco#nts.

AL And (o# know, A""en 'a+onte, o& .os&, 0/m pro2a2"( misprono#ncin. t&e name. As+a&e6 8k, (ea&, #m, +rom PipPap. Yo# know, &e/s an 0ranian and &as 2een "ivin. in t&is co#ntr( +or a "on. time. And one o+ t&e t&in.s t&at &e ta"ked a2o#t was &ow ri.&t now (o# can .o into an( store and 2#( essentia""( H:;; o+ +ree paid Iisa cards or prepaid de2it cards and t&ere/s no GY$ processors, no identit( processors w&atsoever. Yo# can .o in and (o# can 2#( a s&oe2o4 +#"" and t&e( are 3#st as .ood as cas&...

'! -ake /em across t&e 2oarder.

AL E4act"( so it/s "ike, so t&e idea &ere is t&at on t&e internet it/s di++erent. 0 mean, (o# t&ink a2o#t it, and it/s not di++erent. 0t/s not di++erent at a"", t&ere/s not&in. di++erent a2o#t it.

)! 1e"", 0 mean, t&e internetMs di++erent. )#st 2eca#se .randdad doesn/t know &ow t&e t#2es work...0 mean (o# "ook at p#nis&ment in terms o+ t&e internet and (o# .ra++iti a p"ace and (o#/"" .et some comm#nit( service. B#t (o# DDo' a resta#rant or a we2site and now (o# .et (ears. And it/s a compra2"e act o+ writin. .ra++iti or takin. a site down +or a +ew min#tes. Especia""( i+ t&ere are no dama.es i+ it/s a non% commerce site. And it/s 3#st t&e prosec#tions o+ t&in.s t&at are comp#ter re"ated are...

'!

-&at/s w&(.. ok, so it so#nds "ike w&at (o#/re sa(in. 2asica""( is t&at t&e re.#"ations or "ike t&e "e.a" s(stem &asn/t ca#.&t #p wit& t&e +act t&at we &ave t&e internet and t&ere are ana"o.ies to "ike rea" wor"d p&(sica" t&in.s t&at &appen in t&e wor"d inc"#din. so%ca""ed crimes and st#++ "ike t&at. And so, w&at 0 wonder is, t&ere m#st &ave 2een peop"e... and peop"e compare 2itcoin to t&e internet in 9@@=, 2itcoin ri.&t now. 'o t&ere m#st &ave 2een peop"e in t&e ear"( da(s o+ t&e internet w&o were tr(in. to ed#cate t&e "e.is"ators and were tr(in. to te"" t&e .overnment t&is is w&at t&e internet does and &ere/s &ow (o# can re.#"ate it in a wa( t&at makes it +riend"( to #s. -&ere &ad to &ave 2een peop"e tr(in. to do t&at 2#t it sti"" &asn/t ca#.&t #p. 0 mean, =; (ears "ater we sti"" don/t &ave modern "aws t&at #nderstand t&e internet in a wa(. 0t/s sti"" sort o+ 2ack in t&e.. comparin. it to p&ones and +a4es and t&in.s "ike t&at.

)! Gevin !itnik &as an ama7in. a#to%2io.rap&(. And in it &e writes a2o#t &ow &e wo#"d &ack a"" o+ t&ese esta2"is&ments 2#t &e wasn/t doin. an(t&in. i""e.a" 2eca#se t&ere were no "aws on t&e 2ooks on it. 'o t&e( were "ike, a"ri.&t weM"" "et (a .o t&is time. And t&at was 3#st an ama7in. time to e4perience and w&ere t&e internet was so new t&at t&ere were no "aws on it 3#st "ike 2itcoin is ri.&t now.

AL 'o w&at/s t&e ?;%second 2io.rap&( as (o# know it on Gevin Bitnik +or t&ose w&o don/t know6

)! 'o it/s ca""ed a *&ost in t&e !ac&ine. And essentia""( it/s w&at ta#.&t me t&at Gevin Bitnik is c&aotic ne#tra". Beca#se &e &ad t&e power to take down 2i""ion do""ar esta2"is&ments and &e co#"d &ave 2een t&e )#"ian Assan.e a &#ndred times over 2#t 3#st wanted to do it so t&at &e co#"d 2e a p&one p&reak and 3#st "ike prank ca"" peop"e. e once .ot c#t o++ in tra++ic and .ot t&e .#(/s "icense p"ate n#m2er, .ot &is ce"" p&one n#m2er, ca""ed &im a +ew min#tes "ater and t&en said t&at i+ (o#/re ever on t&e road a.ain 0 wi"" take (o#r "icense awa( +rom (o#. -&at/s t&e power t&at &e &ad. And &e didn/t #se it +or .ood, &e didn/t #se it +or evi", &e #sed it +or Gevin Bitnik.

AL e #sed it +or Gevin Bitnik. $&aotic ne#tra".

)! $&aotic ne#tra". B#t it/s a +antastic 2ook. -&at and 1e Are Anon(mo#s kind o+ rea""( .ive (o# a .ood #nderstandin. o+ w&at it/s "ike in t&e &acker space especia""( w&en it comes to dea"in. wit& t&e "aw.

'! Yea&. 0 .#ess t&e point on t&at was t&at i+ we don/t &ave internet re.#"ations t&at aren/t modern and ca#.&t #p wit& t&e times so%ca""ed. 1&at makes peop"e t&ink w&o are ar.#in. now t&ink o& we need to re.#"ate 2itcoin6 1&at makes peop"e t&ink t&at t&e(/re .onna pass "aws t&at are modern and w&at t&ee peop"e want +or 2itcoins6

)! B#t 0 don/t t&ink it/s a2o#t t&at w&en it comes to t&e re.#"ation. 0 "ook at re.#"ation as a t&in. t&at/s needed 2eca#se w&en 2#sinesses need investment, w&en 2#sinesses need a 2ank acco#nt, t&ere needs to 2e some risk miti.ation t&ere and (o# can/t invest in an #nknown #nknown. And #nti" t&ereMs some precedent set in t&e "e.a" space 2itcoin 2#sinesses are so to4ic t&at 2anks don/t even want to .ive (o# an acco#nt. -&ere was an entreprene#rs&ip...

'! 0t/s oka( (o# don/t need an acco#nt.

AL 'ometimes (o# do.

)! Ai.&t. -&ere was a 2#siness, t&ere was an entreprene#rs&ip pitc&

contest ear"ier t&is mont& and t&e woman w&o won, won 2eca#se s&e &ad 3 separate 2ank acco#nts in 3 separate p"aces t&at .ave &er an acco#nt.

AL 'o an(wa(s, we/re 3#st a2o#t o#t o+ time &ere. *#(s, t&is &as 2een .reat. )onat&an, (o# did rea" we"".

)! -&ank (o#, it was a p"eas#re.

AL -&is is .ood, t&is is .ood.

'! Yea&, t&is was +#n.

AL 'o (ea&, t&is was a +#n con+erence, so t&ere/s anot&er one. 'o 0 know (o#/ve 2een invited to speak at t&e one in Las Ie.as t&at/s &appenin. in Decem2er, (ea&6

)! Yea&, t&at/"" 2e a "ot o+ +#n.

AL Yea&, it so#nds "ike t&e(/re .oin. to &ave a "ot o+ t&e same speakers. 0/ve a"so 2een invited 2ack.

'! 0nvited 2ack6

AL -&e(/re doin. anot&er event. -&e(/re doin. anot&er one o+ t&ese events in Decem2er. Yea&, !edia Bistro, t&e same compan( t&at p#t t&is on.

)! A"t&o#.& it/"" 2e in an even +#nner conte4t. 0t/s t&e socia" .amin. and .am2"in. con+erence.

AL 1e"" m( #nderstandin. is act#a""( t&at t&ere are two .oin. on at t&e same time, t&e 2itcoin one and t&e socia" .amin. one.

)! 'o it is t&e socia" .amin. and .am2"in. con+erence and t&e( &ave m#"tip"e tracks. And &e is .oin. to add a 2itcoin track to t&at con+erence. 'o &e rea""( wants to .et t&at Eric Ior&ees on t&at pane". 'o i+ an(one &as a .am2"in. compan( and t&e( wis& to &ave a p"ace to promote it 0 wo#"d certain"( ta"k to !edia Bistro ri.&t now.

AL 'o .#(s, t&anks a.ain, once a.ain t&ank (o# +or 3oinin. me t&is was episode 3;, 0 .#ess t&at/s anot&er mi"estone we don/t rea""( ce"e2rate mi"estones 2eca#se t&e( come 2( so +ast. 0 don/t know, we &ad 2acon toda( so

)! An( time (o# &ave 2acon it/s a ce"e2ration.

AL ("a#.&s) Fair eno#.&. A"ri.&t .#(s. 1e/"" see (o# ne4t time on anot&er episode o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin.

-&anks +or "istenin. to t&is portion o+ o#r specia" Lets-a"kBitcoin con+erence covera.e. Bi. t&anks to !edia Bistro +or p#ttin. on a wonder+#" even at 0nside Bitcoins. 'ta( t#ned +or more to come over t&e co#rse o+ A#.#st. 0+ (o# &ave an( comments or 5#estions +or me direct"( (o# can emai" Adam at Lets-a"kBitcoin.com. 0+ (o# &ave 5#estions, comments, or s#..estions directed at t&e s&ow 2road"(, p"ease visit "etsta"k2itcoin.comBreddit. 'ee (a ne4t time! (m#sic) i +o"ks, Adam E. Livine &ere +or Lets-a"kBitcoin. $ontin#in. o#r A#.#st trend, toda(/s episode, is a two%parter. -&e second portion o+ toda(/s episode was recorded in !an&attan. -&e da( a+ter t&e 0nside Bitcoins event wit& 'tep&anie !#rp&( and specia" .#est &ost )onat&an !o&an o+ Bittcoin NY$. 1e ta"k a2o#t t&e con+erence, t&e attendees, ripp"e, A'0$ minin. pane"s, and a"so 2acon. Bi. t&anks to )onat&an !o&an w&o did a .reat 3o2 wit& t&is se.ment and w&o (o#/"" 2e &earin. more +rom in t&e weeks to come. B#t +irst, t&ere/s some important news news +or #sers o+ Android wa""ets. 1&en news 2reaks in t&e 2itcoin wor"d o+ten times it/s &ard to #nderstand. -&is week a v#"nera2i"it( was revea"ed in t&e Android operatin. s(stem t&at p#t a rea" +ear in t&e 2itcoin comm#nit(. L-B ost Andreas Amantonopo"is spoke wit& Andreas Peterson o+ t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et pro3ect a2o#t e4act"( w&at &appened. B#t 2e+ore we .et to t&at, Andreas, 0 &ad some 5#estions +or (o#. First o++, in t&e interview t&at +o""ows, (o# ta"k a "ot a2o#t entrop(. $an (o# e4p"ain to me w&at t&at is in sort o+ simp"e terms6

AA '#re, Entrop( is a meas#re o+ &ow m#c& in+ormation t&ere is in a messa.e. 0+ (o# "ook at it t&e ot&er wa( aro#nd &ow m#c& randomness t&ere is in a messa.e in comp#ter science terms. 0n p&(sics terms it/s essentia""( &ow m#c& disorder t&ere is in a s(stem or &ow m#c& ener.( in t&e +orm o+ &eat t&ere is in a s(stem. B#t in t&e case o+ in+ormation s(stems rea""( (o# can sa( entrop( is sa(in. t&e same as randomness. 'o t&e pro2"em we/re disc#ssin. in t&is partic#"ar 2#. is t&at somet&in. t&at s&o#"d 2e random % t&at means it s&o#"d &ave &i.& entrop( % is not random. 0t doesn/t &ave t&e necessar( entrop(. 0n +act, it/s a rat&er predicta2"e se5#ence.

AL 'o w&en we ta"k a2o#t randomness t&at can a"so 2e c&aracteri7ed as noise compared to t&e si.na", ri.&t6

AA 1e"", e++ective"( (es. 0+ (o# &ave a random stream, especia""( i+ it/s a sec#re random n#m2er .enerator w&ere (o# e4pect it to &ave certain c&aracteristics o+ randomness t&en t&ere s&o#"d 2e no si.na" % t&at/s t&e de+inition. 'o ever( 2it t&at comes o#t o+ t&at s&o#"d 2e noise % (o# s&o#"d &ave no si.na".

AL 'o it/s a"" noise t&en. 8k, so i+ it/s a"" noise, t&en is t&ere a di++erence 2etween a "ot o+ noise in a s(stem vers#s a "itt"e noise in a s(stem6 )#st not necessari"( ta"kin. a2o#t random n#m2er .enerators 3#st 2road"( speakin.. 0+ (o#/re tr(in. to encr(pt somet&in. or sec#re somet&in., is it 2etter to &ave more randomness t&an "ess randomness6

AA Yo# need a2so"#te randomness. Let me .ive (o# an e4amp"e. Let/s sa( t&at t&ere/s a +#nction wit&in t&e s(stem w&ere (o#/re takin. a random n#m2er and (o#/re m#"tip"(in. it wit& (o#r secret ke(. 'o +or simp"icit( sake, "et/s sa( 0 &ave a secret ke( and m( secret ke( is 3. 'o .ive me a random n#m2er 2etween 9 and :;.

AL 3:

AA Fantastic, so, 0/m .oin. to m#"tip"( t&at 2( 3 and 0/ve .ot m( di.ita" si.nat#re. 'o i+ 0 ask (o# in m( ne4t transaction, .ive me a n#m2er 2etween 9 and :;.

AL 9<

AA 8k, .reat, so (o# .ave me a di++erent one. B#t w&at i+ (o# &ad said 3: a.ain and 0 &ad t&en m#"tip"ied t&at 2( 3 and 2roadcast it to t&e network. And peop"e knew t&at t&e( co#"d .#ess t&at i+ (o#/d said 3: once (o# were "ike"( to sa( 3: a.ain. 1e"", t&en t&e( co#"d 3#st divide 2( 3: and +i.#re o#t w&at m( private ke( is. -&e( wo#"dn/t 2e a2"e to do t&at i+ (o# act#a""( came #p wit& a random n#m2er. 'o t&at/s t&e pro2"em. -&e pro2"em is (o# s&o#"d sa( somet&in. di++erent, 2#t, (o# sa( t&e same n#m2er a.ain.

AL And so t&at/s more "ike"( to &appen in a s(stem t&at &as "ess entrop( t&an one t&at &as more entrop(, is t&at ri.&t6 Beca#se t&ere are +ewer possi2"e n#m2ers6

AA 'o t&e wa( it works is w&en (o# &ave a sec#re cr(pto.rap&ic random n#m2er .enerator, (o# can on"( p#"" o#t 2its +or t&e amo#nt o+ entrop( it &as. 'o "et/s sa( +or e4amp"e it &as c#rrent"( 9=> random 2its to .ive (o#. 0+ (o# .et 9=> random 2its t&ose wi"" 2e random. 0+ (o# tried to p#"" o#t =;; 2its, (o# know, t&e +irst 9=> wi"" 2e random 2#t a+ter t&at, t&e s(stem doesn/t (et &ave eno#.& entrop(. Yo# &ave to wait a 2it +or random processes to occ#r. -&e 2asic concept 2e&ind it &ere is t&is was not a pro2"em o+ r#nnin. o#t o+ entrop(, -&is was simp"( a 2roken a".orit&m, so, it was s#pposed to .ive o#t =:? 2its o+ entrop( and instead it .ave o#t on avera.e @. 'o t&e di++erence t&ere is instead o+ &avin. more c&oices or pro2a2i"ities t&an t&ere are atoms in t&e #niverse it came down to :;; com2inations. -&at/s @ 2its o+ entrop(. 'o (o# can ver( easi"( test a"" :;; com2inations and prett( m#c& +i.#re o#t w&at t&e ne4t random n#m2er t&at/s s#pposed to 2e random is and i+ (o# can .#ess t&e ne4t n#m2er % we"", it/s not random.

AL 'o w&at s&o#"d &ave taken a"" t&e s#per comp#ters t&at are c#rrent"(

in e4istence in order to crack t&is one partic#"ar =:? de.rees o+ randomness 2asica""(%

AA %Yo# co#"d do on a wide 2oard wit& a pen.

AL Ai.&t oka(, we"" t&at makes a "ot o+ sense. 8k .reat. 1e"" 0 rea""( appreciate (o# providin. some c"arit( +or #s on t&is iss#e. Let/s 3#mp ri.&t into t&e interview wit& t&e ot&er Andreas.

i ever(one, t&is &as 2een a rat&er e4citin. week in t&e 2itcoin space wit& t&e anno#ncement o+ a ver( critica" android 2#. t&at &as widespread reperc#ssions a"" across t&e mo2i"e wa""et space. -o disc#ss t&is in a 2it more detai" 0/m ver( p"eased to 2e 3oined toda( 2( Andreas Peterson w&o is one o+ t&e ownersBa#t&ors o+ t&e !(ce"i#m !o2i"e 1a""et and &e/s &ere to ta"k to #s a 2it a2o#t t&is recent 2reac&.

AP e""o ever(one.

AL e""o Andreas, t&ank (o# so m#c& +or 3oinin. #s. $an (o# te"" me a 2it a2o#t w&at e4act"( t&e pro2"em is % w&ere did t&is start6

AP -o see t&e so#rce o+ t&e pro2"em we &ave to .o 2ack in time a "itt"e 2it to =;9= w&en t&ere was an anno#ncement o+ a randomness +ai"#re in t&e Android imp"ementation o+ )ava. Basica""( in t&e &armon( s(stem. -&is was presented in t&e A'A con+erence in =;93 % 0 t&ink it was !arc&. -&is was main"( an academic pro2"em. Beca#se no2od( co#"d rea""( see t&e practica" pro2"em 2e&ind it e4cept +or t&is weird randomness 2e&avior on Android.

AL Yea&, so it wo#"d on"( rea""( app"( i+ (o# &ad some kind o+ 2i7arre di.ita" c#rrenc( t&at co#"d some&ow 2e sto"en, ri.&t6

AP Yes, (ea&, so most peop"e don/t rea""( notice i+ "et/s sa( t&eir ''L connections aren/t rea""( t&at sec#re or i+ t&e( enco#nter some ot&er kind o+ pro2"em. 'o, 2itcoin rea""( p#ts t&e s(stem #nder test &ere and revea"s t&ese kinds o+ pro2"ems. -o 2e precise 0 t&ink t&is is not a sin."e pro2"em % t&ere are two ver( distinct pro2"ems t&at we &ave seen &ere. -&e +irst pro2"em is (o# know t&ere/s a so ca""ed random device in most Lin#4 s(stems or in a"" Lin#4 s(stems, and +rom t&at t&ere is a C%Aandom device. -&ese seem to 2e workin. +ine as +ar as we know.

AL 'o t&e operatin. s(stem random device .enerator t&at creates random n#m2ers t&at/s workin. ok on Android.

AP Yea&, (ea& % so to act#a""( #se random n#m2ers on Android #sin. )ava "an.#a.e (o# need to instantiate a so%ca""ed sec#re random o23ect and t&at sec#re random o23ect is 3#st a wrapper +or a s(stem "i2rar( and t&at is common"( imp"emented #sin. 8pen'L. And t&at imp"ements t&e randomness 2( ta"kin. to t&e device and so t&ere are man( "a(ers invo"ved &ere. 1a""et A"p&as did not&in. wron.. -&e( st#ck to t&e doc#mentation and app"ied t&e 2est practices to not rewrite (o#r cr(pto.rap&( and so on. 'o t&at was not t&e pro2"em. -&e pro2"em was 2etween a"" t&ese "a(ers, entrop( was removed +rom t&e ori.ina" entrop( so#rce t&at is t&e random device.

AL 'o 2asica""( (o#/re .ettin. n#m2ers t&at are "ess random t&an t&e( s&o#"d 2e +rom t&e so#rce so .rad#a""( t&e(/re .ettin. "ess and "ess random, ok.

AP Yea&, 2#t +rom t&at 2#. direct"( no2od( rea""( "ost mone(. 0 &ave ta"ked to anot&er .#( w&o is crackin. private ke(s as a &o22(, and &e .enerated "ots and "ots o+ random n#m2ers. =.? mi""ion random n#m2ers and &e never .ot t&e co""ision #sin. Android. e never .ot t&e co""ision so t&ere was no private ke( compromised as +ar as we know. 1e don/t know rea""(, 2#t w&at we do know is t&at t&ere is a second iss#e. -&at is, w&en si.nin. transactions t&ere is a"so a random n#m2er needed to .enerate a va"id si.nat#re. And t&ose si.nat#res are de+inite"( not as random as we t&ink t&e( are.

AL 'o "et me 3#st c"ari+( t&ere Andreas +or a second. 'o t&e iss#e is not wit& t&e ke( .eneration per se, t&e iss#e is t&at w&en (o# tr( to si.n a transaction especia""( to spend it, (o# are in a sit#ation w&ere (o# are seedin. t&at si.nat#re wit& a random n#m2er w&ic& is not random and i+ (o# do t&at more t&an twice, t&at can revea" t&e private ke(. 0s t&at correct6

AP Yes, e4act"(. 'o t&ere is an e5#ation, it is descri2ed ver( nice"( in a 2itcoin ma.a7ine artic"e. 0+ (o# &ave t&is random n#m2er and (o# #se it twice, t&en #sin. t&is e5#ation (o# can trivia""(, simp"(, ca"c#"ate t&e private ke( t&at was #sed. -&is means t&at i+ (o# &ave a weak random n#m2er .enerator t&at can potentia""( e4pose (o#r private ke( to ever(one. -&at &as &appened a n#m2er o+ times in t&e past. !ost o+ t&e time w&ere it was w&en peop"e were p"a(in. aro#nd wit& to( imp"ementations, protot(pe imp"ementations o+ c"ients. B#t it a"so &appened on Android direct"( w&en si.nin. transactions. -&e iss#e is t&at (o# create a new sec#re random instance and t&en (o# 5#er( it twice. Cnder ver( weird circ#mstances t&ere are +a""2ack scenarios w&ere t&e entrop( .oes down to a "eve" w&ere it &as a ver( &i.& c&ance o+ repeatin. t&e same va"#e. Basica""( 0 t&ink t&at in some cases t&e randomness can .o down to @ 2its o+ entrop( instead o+ =:? 2its o+ entrop(.

AL

*iven a"" o+ t&ose circ#mstances 0 wo#"d ass#me t&at means w&et&er (o#/ve .enerated t&e ke( on an Android wa""et or not, i+ (o# &ave an Android wa""et t&at is #sin. t&is )ava sec#re random n#m2er .enerator, and (o# #se t&at to spend mone( at an( time (o# &ave a c&ance o+ &avin. revea"ed a private ke( +or t&at partic#"ar wa""et6

AP Ai.&t now 0 wo#"d ass#me % o+ co#rse (o# s&o#"d mi.rate (o#r ke(s 2eca#se o+ t&e .enera" entrop( iss#es % 2#t, ri.&t now, i+ (o# &aven/t "ost (o#r mone( (et, it/s not e4treme"( "ike"( t&at (o# wi"" "ose it in t&e +#t#re 2eca#se o+ t&is second v#"nera2i"it(. Beca#se t&at wo#"d mean i+ (o# contin#e #sin. t&e o"d so+tware and .enerate t&ese weak transactions (es, t&en (o# co#"d potentia""( e4pose t&at. B#t t&at/s ver( #n"ike"(.

AL 'o one t&in. t&at was rat&er interestin. wit& t&is was t&at t&e 2#. itse"+ e4presses itse"+ on t&e 2"ock c&ain in a wa( t&at an(one can .o and +ind t&ese s#spect transactions. Pres#ma2"( (o#/re "ookin. at a transaction, or rat&er (o#/re "ookin. at two consec#tive transactions done 2( a same ke( w&ere t&e same random parameter A was #sed +or 2ot&, and pres#ma2"( (o# can 3#st write so+tware t&at trac&"es t&ro#.& t&e 2"ock c&ain to +ind t&ese, ri.&t6

AP Yea&, and peop"e were doin. t&is and (o# wi"" "ose (o#r mone( rat&er 5#ick"( i+ (o# .enerate s#c& a transaction.

AL 0+ (o#/d a"read( done it (o# wo#"d &ave "ost (o#r mone( a"read( so t&ere/s not&in. to worr( a2o#t. )#st don/t make an( new transactions.

AP Yea&, and o+ co#rse a"" t&e c&an.e o+ ke(s. -&ere are man( properties o+ t&is stack, !''L, and t&e Android AP0 t&at are kind o+ s&ad( in m(

opinion 2eca#se it certain"( isn/t impossi2"e to imp"ement t&at in a wa( t&at it wo#"d simp"( work. And it/s kind o+ s&ad( t&at it +ai"s in s#c& a wa(, so 0 wo#"d sa( i+ some2od( #sed sec#re random on Android +or an( p#rpose t&at (o# s&o#"d c&an.e (o#r ke(s 2eca#se t&ere mi.&t 2e a v#"nera2i"it( t&at we don/t know e4act"( a2o#t (et.

AL 'o Andreas, wo#"d (o# sa( t&at t&is 2itcoin demonstration makes t&e =;93 anno#ncement at A'A m#c& more critica" and concrete now and s&o#"d t&ere+ore "ead ot&er deve"opers on Android doin. so+tware t&at/s not direct"( re"ated to 2itcoin 2#t to ot&er sec#re imp"ementations. -&is wi"" kind o+ wake t&em #p, (o# know, t&is is now in t&e wi"d and #sa2"e.

AP 0 don/t rea""( t&ink it/s a ver( 2i. coincidence t&at a"" t&ese 2#.s &appened to.et&er. A kind o+ conspirac( t&eor( &ere, 2#t o+ co#rse, t&is 2#. makes it potentia""( m#c& easier +or an(one wit& massive comp#tin. reso#rces to crack encr(pted comm#nication. And t&ere+ore ever(one w&o is t&e a#t&or o+ an( cr(pto.rap&ica""( interestin. app"ication on Android s&o#"d de+inite"( cease to #se sec#re random and rat&er "ook +or an a"ternative. 'o, t&e most o2vio#s a"ternative wo#"d 2e to access DAFC random device. DAFC random +i"e direct"( and read +rom t&at as we do now in t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et. -&e ot&er t&in. is t&at 0/m c#rrent"( "ookin. into an imp"ementation proposa" 2( Br#ce 'c&neier, i+ t&at wo#"d provide a ver( .ood a"ternative t&at we co#"d com2ine m#"tip"e entrop( so#rces.

AL A&, ri.&t, (es. As a deve"oper o+ t&e pop#"ar and ver( +#nction !(ce"i#m wa""et, (o#/ve taken steps now to +i4 t&is pro2"em 0/m ass#min. a"" o+ t&e Android 2itcoin wa""et deve"opers are doin. so. 1&at wo#"d t&e #sers e4perience6 1o#"d t&e( e4perience simp"( an #pdate comin. t&ro#.& t&eir p"a( store6

AP Yes, so +irst o+ a"" 0 &ave to rea""( .ive credit to )an !ec&"er, and as +ar

as 0 know a"" pop#"ar Android wa""ets &ave 2een #pdated so t&at t&e( are +o#r wa""ets o#t t&ere t&at keep (o#r own private ke(s on t&e device. -&at/s 2itcoin wa""et +rom (ina#di2"e 9E:3;), t&at/s !(ce"i#m wa""et, B"ockc&ain.in+o, and a"so t&e now kind o+ deprecated Bitcoin 'pinner % t&at was t&e previo#s app"ication +rom )an % was a"so #pdated. 'o on some o+ t&ese wa""ets (o# need to man#a""( do t&e ke( rotation, 2#t on ot&ers +or e4amp"e on t&e !(ce"i#m wa""et t&ere/s a wi7ard t&at detects o"d ke(s and a#tomatica""( moves t&em to new ke(s. And in t&e process w&at 0 rea""( want to emp&asi7e &ere, p"ease do make a 2ack#p o+ a"" (o#r o"d ke(s and (o#r new ke(s. Yo# don/t know i+ (o#/re .oin. to need t&em in t&e +#t#re. 0n t&e wi7ard it a"so .ives (o# t&e opport#nit( to make a 2ack#p. 'o p"ease do t&at and .et t&ose private ke(s onto a piece o+ paper p"ease.

AL 8ka(, (es, ver( .ood advice. *et it onto paper wa""ets as 2ack#ps. 'o "et me 3#st c"ari+( a tin( 2it. Yo# ta"ked a2o#t t&e rotatin. ke(s, i+ (o# were to 2reak down t&is process: (o# down"oad t&e new code +rom t&e so+tware deve"opers w&o &ave #pdated t&e code. Yo# make a 2ack#p o+ t&e ke(s as (o# ver( ri.&t"( 3#st said. -&en (o# create a new wa""et, and t&en (o# essentia""( send a"" t&e mone( +rom t&e o"d wa""et to t&e new wa""et6 0s t&at it prett( m#c&6

AP Yo# wi"" send mone( +rom one address to anot&er address and (o#r wa""et so+tware now &as ma(2e 2ot& addresses in it or 3#st one address in it dependin. on t&e imp"ementation #sed. 0t/s not a ver( comp"e4 pro2"em, (o#/re essentia""( 3#st sendin. mone( to (o#rse"+ and it/s a new address.

AL And ver( critica""( 0 wo#"d sa( t&is &as to &appen a+ter t&e so+tware &as 2een +i4ed 2eca#se i+ (o# 3#st .enerate a new address and tried to send (o#r mone(, (o# wi"" 2e creatin. e4act"( t&e kinds o+ transactions t&at co#"d compromise (o#r private ke(, ri.&t6

AP

Yea&, so #pdates +or a"" t&e wa""ets &ave 2een p#s&ed o#t so t&e p"a( store and t&e two ot&er c&anne"s, t&at s&o#"dn/t 2e a pro2"em. $an 0 ask (o# somet&in. in ret#rn re.ardin. t&is topic. Yo# were invo"ved in t&e paper wa""et pro3ect, (ea&6 ow is t&e sit#ation t&ere, do (o# &ave an( inside in+ormation a2o#t... w&at kind o+ randomness does t&e paper wa""et provide6

AL -&e ori.ina" paper wa""et is derived +rom t&e 2itaddress.or. version =.E. -&at/s t&e same so+tware we #se +or open paper wa""ets, sa+e paper wa""ets, and as +ar as 0 know t&e 2itcoin paper wa""ets w&ic& is anot&er version. A"" o+ t&ose #se t&e operatin. s(stem dev#random +rom wit&in a )ava'cript wrapper "i2rar(. -&at does not r#n on Android so t&at wo#"d 2e inside t&e desktop 2rowser as +ar as 0 know t&ere/s no v#"nera2i"ities t&ere.

AP 0t wo#"d re"( on t&e )ava'cript imp"ementation o+ t&e 2rowser #sed. 'o it co#"d 2e $&rome or 0nternet E4p"orer or somet&in..

AL 1e"" it/s cross%2rowser so it operates on a"" o+ t&em, 2#t certain"( (es, one o+ t&e considerations &ere % and 0 t&ink a .ood sec#rit( practice % and one o+ t&e reasons 0 was not as worried a2o#t t&is even t&o#.& 0 #se a mo2i"e wa""et is simp"( t&at 0 on"( &ad =%3F o+ m( +#nds on"ine on t&e wa""ets t&at were doin. transactions +rom m( mo2i"e c"ient. -&e rest was a"" in paper wa""ets and t&at/s a .ood wa( to 2e rest%ass#red essentia""( % to 2e re"a4ed a2o#t it.

AP Yea&, (ea&, a2so"#te"(. 'o a"so 0 mean on paper wa""et (o# re"( on &avin. a .ood entrop( +or t&e ke( o+ co#rse 2#t t&e main pro2"em t&e d#p"icated random va"#es in t&e transaction doesn/t even s&ow #p in paper wa""ets 2eca#se t&e( don/t do an( transactions o+ co#rse.

AL

-&at is correct a"t&o#.& we do &ave in o#r "atest version o+ 'a+e Paper 1a""ets so+tware we do &ave a wa( to comp"ete"( sweep and redeem and it wi"" create a transaction so 0 wo#"d &ave to "ook at t&e random n#m2er .enerator. B#t in .enera" 0 t&ink t&is is rea""( a si.n o+ t&in.s to come 2eca#se v#"nera2i"ities in t&e past &ad time 2etween .oin. +rom t&eoretica" to practica" and in t&e wi"d, 2#t w&at 2itcoin does is it provides immediate incentive to take t&at t&eoretica" e4p"oit practica" and make some mone( o++ o+ it. 'o we/re .oin. to see t&is &appen more and more, wo#"d (o# sa(6

AP A2so"#te"(. 'o t&is is rea""( s&owin. t&e weaknesses on some s(stems and a"so in comp#ter sec#rit( it/s not s#rprisin. t&at a "ot o+ +i"e &osts, server &osts, &ave 2een &acked and attackers speci+ica""( on"( went +or t&e 2itcoin c#stomers and "e+t ever(one e"se a"one. 'o t&is rea""( s&ows t&e sec#rit( stat#s o+ t&e s(stem i+ (o# &ave some 2itcoins #p +or .ra2s +or an attacker.

AL !ost s(stems are not 5#ite read( (et +or storin. di.ita" mone( 2#t we/re .oin. to "earn and deve"op as time .oes 2(. 0 wo#"d "ike to t&ank (o# so m#c& Andreas Peterson, co%a#t&or o+ t&e !(ce"i#m mo2i"e wa""et +or .ivin. #s some e4ce""ent in+ormation toda( on w&at e4act"( is &appenin. wit& Android random n#m2er .enerator, &ow to so"ve it, so w&at to acco#nt +or, and t&ank (o# so m#c& +or a"" t&is #se+#" in+ormation.

AP Yo#/re we"come.

Eas( DN' is t&e arm(%arm( kni+e +or (o#r domain names % &e"pin. meet t&eir c#stomer/s individ#a" needs since 9@@>. Eas( DN' &as 2een an o#tspoken critic o+ '8PA and $0'PA. Eas( DN' was an ear"( s#pporter o+ 2itcoin and now t&e( are pro#d to sponsor t&is s&ow. Do 2#siness wit& a 2#siness t&at s&ares (o#r va"#es. *et a 93F disco#nt w&en (o# pa( wit& 2itcoin. *o to 2itcoin.eas(dns.com and 2e s#re to #se disco#nt code L-B.

i, t&is is )ason Gin., +or Bitcoin9;;.or., and (o#/re "istenin. to Lets-a"kBitcoin. Bitcoin9;; is o"d sc&oo" 2itcoin p&i"ant&rop(. 1e/ve 2ro#.&t +#rt&er awareness to 2itcoin 2( &avin. c&arities and non% pro+its add a 2itcoin donation option to t&eir sites. -&en we wi"" award t&em wit& a H9,;;; endowment +or t&eir e++orts. P"ease &e"p s#pport #s 2( eit&er donatin. to o#r ca#se at Bitcoin9;;.or. or 2( &e"pin. #s +ind wort&( non%pro+its t&at are wi""in. to accept 2itcoins +or donations. -&anks.

AL i and we"come to episode 3; o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin, we are on t&e 3>t& +"oor o+ t&e New Yorker ote" in New York, New York! Yesterda( we attended t&e 0nside Bitcoins $on+erence, and t&is mornin. it/s a "itt"e a+ter 9; A! East $oast time w&ic& means a2o#t < A! 1est $oast time. -&e time t&at m( 2rain is sti"" on. )oinin. #s toda( we/ve .ot m( norma" co%&ost 'tep&anie !#rp&(.

'! e""o, we/re in t&e same room a.ain!

AL Yes, we/re in t&e same room a.ain. 'econd time! 'weet. And t&en a"so specia" .#est &ost !r. )onat&an !o&an.

)! e(, 0 &ave some 2i. s&oes to +i"" 2#t 0 &ope to t&em 5#ite ((ina#di2"e, =9:;;)

AL 'o )on !o&an a.ain &as 2een on t&e s&ow 2e+ore and is t&e +o#nder and w&ir"wind o+ activit( t&at constit#tes t&e p"annin. 2e&ind t&e Bitcoin NY$ .ro#p and vario#s events. 1e went to a cocktai" part( t&e

ni.&t 2e+ore "ast6

)! Yes, on !onda(.

AL 'econd market t&at (o# &e"ped p#t to.et&er and it was a com2ination .ro#p event +or Lets-a"kBitcoin and +or a co#p"e o+ ot&er % 0 t&ink $oinsetter was t&ere6

'! Yea&.

AL Yea&, $oinsetter, and t&en t&e ot&er one was o+ co#rse 'econd !arket.

)! Yea&, 0 &eard t&at 9E; peop"e A'IP/d, t&e( &ad to kick peop"e o#t.

AL Yea&, t&at was a +#nn( t&in.. Apo"o.ies to "isteners i+ an(2od( didn/t .et in, +ee" +ree to emai" comp"aints to Adam at Lets-a"kBitcoin.com. B#t (ea&, so t&is was an incredi2"e event! 0 .otta sa( even +or a one da( event, a "ot o+ st#++ &appens, (o# know t&e ta"ks a.ain, we &ad t&is t&in. w&ere t&e ta"ks were .ood 2#t it was more a2o#t t&e attendees t&an rea""( a2o#t t&e speakers.

)! 'ome +eed2ack 0 .ot was t&ere were wa( more ama7in. peop"e in t&e a#dience t&an sometimes as a pane"ist 0/m .onna sa(%

AL Ai.&t, we a"" spoke t&ere 0 +ee" com+orta2"e sa(in.% (a"" "a#.&)

)! 0 wo#"d ta"k "ike, J1&at do (o# do6 1&( weren/t (o# on t&at6 8& m( .od!J

'! 0t/s tr#e. Yo#/d wa"k aro#nd and ever(one &as $E8 on t&eir name ta.. 0 wanted to sa( 0/m "ike t&e $E8 o+ 8rk -&erap( or somet&in.. (a"" "a#.&) B#t (ea& 0 mean ever(2od( &ad a pro3ect, t&e( a"" &ad t&in.s to sa(. At one point 0 was doin. some interviews o#t in t&e &a""wa( and 0 rea"i7ed t&at severa" &o#rs &ad .one 2( and 0 &ad missed Adam/s ta"k act#a""( and 0 wanted to see it 2#t 0 was "ike 3#st one interview a+ter t&e ot&er, so...

AL Yea& (ea&, no, (o# were 5#ite t&e mac&ine o#t t&ere,. 'o &ow man( interviews did (o# .et t&is time, 'tep&anie6

'! 8&, at "east a do7en.

AL 8ka(, so (o# .ot, 0 t&ink it was, was it =; "ast time6 0 t&ink it was a2o#t =: "ast time6 8ka(, so t&e ratio is a2o#t keepin. #p, it/s a2o#t 9=%9: a da(.

'! 1e"" &ope+#""( it/s 5#a"it( too and not 3#st 5#antit(. B#t &onest"( 0 t&o#.&t t&e( were .reat. 0 ta"ked to some peop"e t&at 0 &ad 2een

wantin. to ta"k to and it was rea""( interestin.. Especia""( to &ear more a2o#t w&at/s .oin. on in t&e minin. scene. -&ose were pro2a2"( m( +avorite interviews. 0 ta"ked to 'am +rom GN$ !iner and )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s. 0 a"so +o#nd o#t a2o#t Feat&ercoin, t&at was interestin. too.

AL Yea&, (ea&, did (o# meet t&e $08 t&ere6

'! Yes, t&at was Peter.

AL 1as t&at &is name6 0 t&o#.&t &is name was )o&n. 0/m terri2"e wit& names.

'! 0t was Peter )o&n.

AL Peter )o&n! -&ere (o# .o, oka(, t&at makes sense.

)! !( mot&er sa(s to never tr#st peop"e wit& two +irst names. !a(2e t&at/s a si.n. 0 &ad no idea &e was t&ere.

'! Yea& it was coo", 0 "earned some t&in.s 0 didn/t know a2o#t Feat&ercoin 2e+ore and 0 kind o+ wanted to .et Feat&ercoins "ast ni.&t w&en 0 .ot &ome.

)! 0 3oke wit& )onat&an 1or&an t&e Bit!essa.e .#( t&at we s&o#"d make o#r own cr(pto c#rrenc( and ca"" it 2reat& "ike air. And w&at it wi"" do is t&ere wi"" on"( ever 2e =9 5#adri""ion #nits in circ#"ation and it wi"" 2e t&e &eir to Feat&ercoin/s copper. (a"" "a#.&) 0t/s so (ina#di2"e =E:;;) it/s #nmetera2"e. 0t/s 3#st (o# don/t care 2eca#se it/s so man(. 0 t&ink it/s .onna .o p"aces, 0 t&ink t&is is t&e time to anno#nce it.

'! -&ere is so m#c& more .oin. on too. -&ere were a "ot o+ 2i. media t&ere. Adam, (o# know, 0 don/t know i+ t&e(/re .oin. to do an(t&in. wit& it 2#t (o# and 0 were 2ot& on camera +or $B' nationa".

AL Yea&, no, s&e was e4cited, we spoke wit& t&e prod#cer t&ere, 0 act#a""( % wa"kin. o#t on t&e ta"ks on t&e wa( to "#nc&, (o# know 0 act#a""( didn/t eat 2reak+ast (esterda( and so 0 was &eadin. to "#nc&. B#t t&en 0 was wa"kin. 2( and 0 saw t&is 2ewi"dered "ookin. woman w&o &ad a nameta. t&at said prod#cer $B' and 0 "ike reversed, came 2ack, and was "ike, J e(, 0/m Adam B. Levine o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin! Do (o# need an( &e"p +indin. an(one6J 'o t&at/s w&at 0 tr( to do at t&ese events most o+ a"" is 3#st to 2e &e"p+#" and to%

'! 8& (o# were .reat wit& t&at! Yo# "ined #p a 2#nc& o+ interviews. 0 t&ink s&e "earned a "ot a2o#t 2itcoins 2eca#se s&e was tota""( new to it and 0/m ."ad t&e( decided to come. $NN was t&ere in t&e mornin..

AL 1e"" t&e( weren/t necessari"(% $B' wasn/t% s&e was 3#st t&ere to see i+ t&e( s&o#"d cover it. And so a+ter 0 to"d &er t&at 0 co#"d .et &er "ike 9; interviews s&e/s "ike 8k, 0/m ca""in. t&e crew. -&en t&e( s&owed #p a2o#t a &a"+ &o#r "ater. B#t no, it was .reat, it/s terri+ic. A.ain, 2itcoin and cr(pto c#rrencies in .enera" are &ard to #nderstand i+ (o# don/t &ave t&e 2asis to #nderstand t&em and so w&en especia""( 3o#rna"ists

come into p"a( % a "ot o+ times t&ese peop"e don/t &ave a rea" monetar( 2ack.ro#nd and so it/s &ard to appreciate it. B#t (o# know, i+ (o# can .et o#t t&ere and .ive t&em .ood ana"o.ies t&e( can #nderstand and t&e( can take 2ack to t&eir "isteners and t&eir viewers % 2eca#se t&at o+ co#rse is t&e ot&er t&in. is t&at i+ t&e( can/t #nderstand it &ow in &e"" are t&e( s#pposed to present it to an a#dience w&o is even "ess in+ormed t&an t&e( are. 'o, (o# know, 0 t&ink we act#a""( did some .ood work (esterda( and 0 know PB' was t&ere too.

'! Ae#ters, -ec&$r#nc&. A "ot o+ 2i. names, &onest"(. 0t was .reat.

)! Yo# know, at De+$on, t&e( &ave somet&in. ca""ed spot t&e +ed w&ere it/s a .ame w&ere (o# &ave to spot w&o/s a +edera" a.ent. And act#a""( 0 don/t know in t&e 'an )ose con+erence i+ (o# &ad an(, 2#t, did (o#

'! Andreas c"aimed t&at &e identi+ied an FB0 a.ent.

)! 1ere (o# a2"e to meet t&e specia" a.ent w&o was &ere +rom t&e $(2er $rimes Division6

'! 0 didn/t meet &im 2#t 0 &eard (o#/re &avin. "#nc& wit& &im.

)! Yea&, ne4t week 0 want to do t&at. e seems rea""( interestin..

'!

1ow, so (o# didn/t &ave to spot &im &e was o2vio#s.

)! Yea&, &e was wearin. a name ta. t&at read FB0. e didn/t "ook "ike a Fed. e was wearin. a t%s&irt and 3#st &an.in. o#t.

'! 1e"" t&en t&e 5#estion 2ecomes w&o was inco.nito.

)! Ai.&t, ri.&t. 0 &ad a rea""( +#n moment w&ere someone &ad .iven me &is card. And 0 went, o& m( .od 0 ta"ked to t&is Fed (o# &ave to ta"k to &im. 'o w&en 0 went to speak to &im, 0 said &e( 0/m )onat&an we s&o#"d .ra2 "#nc& some time. And &e said, J8&, "et me .ive (o# m( card.J And 0 was "ike, Jt&at/s a"ri.&t 0 a"read( &ave a"" o+ (o#r in+ormation.J ("a#.&s) And &e was "ike, J1&at6J

AL A&ead o+ t&e .ame! ("a#.&s) Yea& no, in addition to t&e FB0 % 0 did not meet t&e a.ent t&ere, 2#t. 0 did see someone +rom treas#r( t&ere and 0 .ot a card +rom t&em and we/re .onna speak to t&em 2eca#se a.ain (o# know t&e(/re... Aea""( w&at it seemed "ike a.ain % and t&is mi.&t not 2e tr#e o+ ever(one in t&ese a.encies 2#t certain"( t&e peop"e w&o are t&ere at t&e ver( "east seemed "ike t&e( were c#rio#s and 3#st didn/t rea""( know w&at was .oin. on. 'o t&at co#"d 2e an act%

'! -&at wo#"d not s#rprise me..

AL Ai.&t, e4act"( 2#t it seems act#a""( +air"( "ike"( t&at .iven a"" t&e t&in.s

to pa( attention to, t&is is 3#st simp"( not somet&in. t&at t&e ma3orit( o+ t&em are pa(in. attention to.

)! Ai.&t. And (o#/d mentioned PB'. 'o 0 was speakin. wit& t&em and at t&e end o+ t&e interview t&e prod#cer &ad mentioned, JYo# know, we were ta"kin. a2o#t potentia""( t&inkin. a2o#t acceptin. 2itcoin.J And 0 said, J8& m( .od, t&at/s ama7in.! 8&, wait! 0/m .onna do as m#c& as 0 possi2"( can to make t&is a rea"it(...J And t&at/s w&at/s so ama7in. a2o#t t&e con+erence is w&en (o# &ave 3;;, E;; entreprene#rs in a room it/s rea""( eas( to start doin. t&in.s. 'o 0 3#st .ot% 0 immediate"( ran to -on( *i"eppe o+ BitPa(. And so 0 was "ike, JA"ri.&t (o# and 0. 1e/re .onna meet wit& PB' and we/re .onna make t&is &appen.J And 0 .ot o#t t&ree s&eets o+ paper, and 0 3#st ran aro#nd t&e con+erence and d#rin. t&at time we act#a""( .ot =;; 2itcoins p"ed.ed towards .oin. t PB' s&o#"d t&e( accept 2itcoin. 'o act#a""( )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s p"ed.ed :;. And t&en EFC p"ed.ed :;. And 'am +rom GN$ !iner6 Yea&, &e p"ed.ed :; as we"". and t&en -rade&i"" p"ed.ed 9;. And t&en we &ave Bitcoin9;;, w&ic& is a"wa(s avai"a2"e +or 9; 2itcoin. And t&en a2o#t =; peop"e a"so pitc&ed in a2o#t 9 2itcoin. 'o it was kind o+ a comm#na" e++ort. )#st a s&ock 2( &ow m#c& demand t&ere is to see someone "ike PB' .et 2e&ind 2itcoin.

AL -&at act#a""( e4ceeds t&e n#m2er (o# .oin. +or, ri.&t6 Beca#se at t&e end o+ t&e con+erence we ended a "itt"e 2it ear"( 2eca#se one o+ t&e speakers didn/t s&ow #p. $&ristian D#mont 0 2e"ieve....

'! 8&... +rom Food"er!

AL Yea&

'!

Yo# wanted to ta"k to &im.

AL 0 know! 1e/ve 2een tr(in. to sc&ed#"e wit& &im. Beca#se a.ain t&e( &ave a rea""( interestin. #se case and t&at/s w&at &e was s#pposed to 2e speakin. a2o#t t&ere 2#t as +ar as 0 #nderstand it so#nds "ike &e missed two +"i.&ts 2( comin. &ere and did not make it in.

'! Yea&, 0 can #nderstand t&at it/s eas( to .et "ost in New York and it/s eas( to...

AL 0t/s eas( to not .et to New York too apparent"(.

'! Yea&, tota""(. 1e"" &ope+#""( we/"" 2e a2"e to catc& #p wit& &im "ater.

AL Yo# know, a.ain, it seems "ike t&e(/re &avin. a "ot o+ s#ccess wit& t&e space so t&ere/s no incentive +or t&em to "eave.

'! 0 3#st saw somet&in. sa(in. t&at t&eir 2itcoin orders. 'o it/s a t&in. w&ere (o# can order take%o#t. And t&e( take o#t 2itcoin. 'o (o# can take o#t "oca""( wit& 2itcoin and 0 3#st saw an artic"e a2o#t it and apparent"( t&e 2itcoin orders &ave .rown and trip"ed over t&e "ast mont& or somet&in..

AL 'o o+ co#rse t&e 5#estion wit& t&at a"wa(s is w&at were t&e( to 2e.in

wit&6 Beca#se trip"in....

'! Yea&, we &ad 9 2itcoin order "ast mont&, now we &ave 3. ("a#.&ter)

AL 'o it/s a"" kind o+ re"ative w&en (o#/re ta"kin/ a2o#t a2stract n#m2ers "ike t&at. 'o, "et/s ta"k a2o#t t&e con+erence. 0 mean t&at was certain"( somet&in. is t&at we did see a "ot o+ A'0$s t&ere. 0 don/t t&ink an(2od( spoke a2o#t A'0$s. -&is was not rea""( a tec&nica" event, t&is was more on t&e re.#"ator( side o+ t&in.s.

'! Yea&, or 3#st #m, "ike an intro, "ike. -&e( rea""( did tr( to make it +riend"( to peop"e w&o &ad no idea w&at 2itcoin was. -&e ke(note speaker was $&ar"ie '&rem so &e spoke +irst t&in. in t&e mornin. and act#a""( 0 was seated ri.&t in +ront o+ &is parents and so t&at was coo" 2eca#se 0 .ot to meet &is parents. e was sa(in. t&at &e +o#nded Bit0nsant , 3#st a (o#n. .#(. e/s on"( =3 (ears o"d. )#st ama7in. w&at &e/s done wit& Bit0nstant in t&at time. B#t &e was sa(in. &e .ot "a#.&ed o#t o+ ever( vent#re capita" +irm t&at &e tried to pitc& t&e idea to 2ack severa" (ears a.o. 3 (ears a.o 0 t&ink. 1&en &e was tr(in. to start Bit0nstant. 'o, &e &ad to act#a""( .et t&e start#p +#ndin. +rom &is !om. And so s&e was standin. #p and s&e was "ike woo&oo!

AL -&e n#m2er t&o#.& % t&at was t&e t&in. t&at s#rprised me. 0 ass#med t&at t&ere was more cost 2e&ind Bit0nstant 2#t &e said t&at

'! 9;,;;; do""ars.

AL

(ea&, H9;,;;; to start Bit0nstant.

'! Yea&. 0/m s#re &e didn/t &ave an o++ice in !an&attan at +irst.

AL 0 mean o2vio#s"(, 2#t it 3#st .oes to s&ow t&e 2arrier to entr( on t&ese properties even so even wit& somet&in. "ike t&at w&ere (o#/re act#a""( inter+acin. wit& t&e monetar( side o+ it is not t&at e4pensive #nti" (o# .et to re.#"ator( comp"iance. And once (o# .et to re.#"ator( comp"iance t&e cost .oes t&ro#.& t&e roo+ and (o# s#dden"( need mi""ions o+ do""ars in order to pa( t&e 2onds, 3#st end"ess t&in.s.

'! 0 t&ink t&at/s rea""( important to point o#t 2eca#se it/s rea""(... a"read( we don/t rea""( &ave re.#"ation% is m#c& a2o#t 2itcoin 2#t 3#st t&e t&o#.&t t&at t&ere co#"d 2e re.#"ations a2o#t 2itcoin is sti+"in. a "ot o+ 2itcoin 2#siness. And we saw on t&e% t&ere was a vent#re capita"ist pane" act#a""( o+ severa" investors w&o were eit&er &ad invested in 2itcoin 2#sinesses or &ad invested in 2itcoin persona""( or were p"annin. on it. And one o+ t&e t&in.s t&e( said t&at t&e( wo#"d avoid t&at was "ike a red +"a. +or 2itcoin 2#sinesses t&at t&e( wo#"d not want to +#nd a 2#siness was i+ t&e( &ad 2asica""( "ike re.#"ations &an.in. over t&eir &ead or "ike re.#"ator( "ia2i"ities. 'o 2asica""( e4c&an.es and t&in.s t&at co#"d 2e potentia""( considered mone( services 2#sinesses or an(t&in. "ike t&at.

)! And so at one o+ m( week"( entreprene#rs&ip meetin.s re.#"ation is t&e ta"k o+ t&e town. Beca#se t&ere is t&is tremendo#s incentive +or (ina#di2"e 39::>) to not want to invest in somet&in. +or w&ic& (o# can/t 5#anti+( t&e risk +or. And i+ (o# don/t &ave (o#r re.#"ation down (o#/re 3#st a risk( 2et.

'!

Yea& it doesn/t matter &ow .reat (o#r 2#siness is and t&at 3#st str#ck me as so #n+air. Yo# co#"d &ave an ama7in. idea +or a 2#siness and t&ese 2#rea#crats are 3#st .onna .et in (o#r wa( . And (o# won/t 2e a2"e to .et +#ndin..

AL an. on a second. 0t/s not +air, 'tep&anie. 0t/s not +air6 No, o+ co#rse it/s not +air. 0t/s not s#pposed to 2e +air.

)! And (o# know, t&ere/s reason w&( +inance &asn/t c&an.ed t&at m#c& in America. And it/s 2eca#se o+ w&at/s &appenin. &ere.

'! Yea&, wit& t&e re.#"ations. E4act"(. Ever(2od( sa(s t&e C' is t&e "east +riend"( environment +or an( 2#siness t&at invo"ves mone(.

)! And 0 act#a""( t&ink t&at 2itcoin mi.&t 2e t&e canar( in t&e mind to sa( t&at, J-&is mi.&t 2e t&e point w&ere pro.ress and innovation needs to "eave America in order to s#cceed.J Beca#se 0/ve 2een &avin. weeks and weeks o+ disc#ssions wit& re.#"ators and 0 m(se"+ was scared awa( +rom startin. a compan( 3#st 2eca#se 0 wo#"d 2e a mone( transmitter and wo#"d need &#ndreds o+ t&o#sands o+ do""ars to start m( idea w&en rea""( t&e costs were #nder 9; .rand to .et it started.

'! 1e"" &ow man( peop"e &ave t&e same e4perience.

)! And so man( 0/m ta"kin. to t&em and t&e answer is a"wa(s, J1e"" (o# know Eric and *a2e and t&e 2#nc&, down in Panama, tota""(, t&e(/"" &ook (o# #p. -&e(/"" .ive (o# a p"ace to cras& +or a 2it #nti" (o# +ind

somew&ere and Panama is ri.&t t&ere, ;F income ta4, we co#"d do it .#(s.J

'! And (o# know a2o#t $oinap#"t.

)! Yes $oinap#"t.

'! -&at/s t&e compan( Eric Ior&ees... Yea& t&at rea""( stood o#t to me, 0 mean 3#st t&e +oc#s on w&ere is t&is .onna .o +rom a re.#"ator( standpoint and 0 +ee" rea""( sad a2o#t t&at. 0 "ove to see t&ese 2#sinesses .rowin.. And we &ave s#c& an ama7in. tec&no"o.( t&at co#"d do so m#c& +or +reedom in t&e wor"d, +or convenience. 0t 3#st opens #p so man( possi2i"ities it rea""( is t&e +#t#re o+ mone( +or a reason 2eca#se it/s so m#c& 2etter t&an w&at we/ve .ot ri.&t now. $redit cards were .reat, t&e( were an innovation 2#t t&at was E; or 3; (ears a.o, ri.&t6 At t&is point6 And so, (o# know, it/s time +or somet&in. new and 0 wo#"d "ike it to 2e a2"e to 3#st .o and see w&at &appens wit& it. B#t it seems "ike t&ere/s a storm c"o#d t&at ma( 2e &o"din. a "ot o+ peop"e 2ack.

AL Yea&, (o# know, 0 mean, 0 t&ink t&at% 8k, so in addition to t&e I$, in addition to t&e miners t&at we saw, t&e miner man#+act#rers t&at we saw: we a"so saw a w&o"e 2#nc& o+ "aw(ers. -&is was rea""(, 0 was s#rprised 2( &ow we"" represented t&e( were. And (o# know we saw t&e +irm t&at did t&e..

'! 8& rea""(, t&e "aw(ers were act#a""( we"" represented6

AL

1e were act#a""( sittin. in +ront o+ a .ent"eman w&o represents t&e on"ine BAA 0 t&ink is &is pro3ect. 0t/s o#t o+ 'o#t& A+rica 2#t t&e( &ave 3,;;; "aw(ers w&o &e speaks to and (o# know, &e was t&ere 3#st "earnin. a2o#t 2itcoins. 'o we ta"ked to &im +or a rea""( "on. time. e was ver( interested. -&e(/re a"so into permac#"t#re. $r(sta" and &is wi+e. Yea&, $r(sta" spoke to t&em a2o#t permac#"t#re, m( wi+e persona""(. '&e/s t&e en.ineerK

'! '&e/s awesome. '&e/s o#r prod#cer.

AL '&e/s o#r prod#cer. Cm, 2#t (ea& t&e( were we"" represented. 0n t&e ta"ks it seemed "ike t&ere was a t&eme t&at 0 was a "itt"e 2it dist#r2ed 2(. 1&ic& is t&at 2itcoin +#ndamenta""( &as to c&an.e in order to work in t&e "on. term.

'! Yea&, 0 saw t&at, and 0 t&ink t&at 0 tota""( t&ink t&at/s inspired 2( t&e re.#"ations t&at peop"e +ear are comin.. And so t&e(/re "ike, J1e"", (o# know it/s not so 2ad i+ we don/t make it anon(mo#s and we i+ we don/t ca#se c&ar.e2acks and i+ we 2#i"d c&ar.e2acks into 2itcoin w&at/s t&e 2i. dea"6 1&at/s t&e 2i. dea" is it/s not 2itcoin an( more.

)! 1e"" 0 t&ink it/s eas( to con+#se a 2#siness opport#nit( to +#ndamenta" c&an.es to 2itcoin itse"+. 'o t&ese peop"e t&at/s w&at 2#sinesses are +or. Yo# see a "itt"e .ap and (o# +i"" t&at nic&e. 'o 0 t&ink t&at a "ot o+ t&ese are 3#st .oin. to 2e a 2itcoin 2ack in 2#siness t&at are .oin. to +i"" t&e capacit( to +aci"itate c&ar.e2acks.

AL 1e"" 0 t&ink t&at/s t&e &ope is t&at (o# wind #p wit& somet&in. "ike t&at. 0s t&at (o# wind #p wit& "ike an ins#rance t(pe o+ s(stem w&ere merc&ants s#2scri2e and pa( a +ee. And t&en t&ere/s t&e a2i"it( to do

vo"#ntar( c&ar.e2acks and t&en (o# &ave a t&ird%part( ar2itrator w&o can essentia""( come in and mediate t&at.

'! 0t can &appen wit& escrow services now t&o#.&. -&ere are some, 0 mean t&at are startin....

AL Yes, t&at/s tr#e, t&at/s tr#e, 2#t a.ain. Yo# add "a(ers o+ cost to t&is t&in. ever( time (o# do st#++.

)! Ai.&t.

AL And 0 mean, and t&at a.ain is t&e pro2"em. -&at over t&e "on. term t&e 5#estion is, are we t&rowin. t&e 2a2( o#t wit& t&e 2at& water 2( tr(in. to +i4 t&ese pro2"ems are we in +act r#inin. t&e s(stem as a w&o"e.

'! Yea&, t&is revo"#tionar( tec&no"o.( t&at is comp"ete"( di++erent +rom t&e Le.ac( Bankin. '(stem is so .reat! 1e 3#st need to make it a "itt"e more "ike t&e Le.ac( Bankin. '(stem to make it 2etter. Yea&, and 0 was dist#r2ed 2( t&e wa( it was presented in a "ot o+ t&e ta"ks t&at 0 saw. 1e need to do t&is. Yo# know, "ike it/s not so 2ad. Let/s 3#st tie o#r identities to a"" o+ o#r 2itcoin addresses and p#t a socia" sec#rit( n#m2er on it. Let/s "ike, (o# know .et rid o+ t&e irreversi2i"it( o+ transactions! And we need to do t&is, or e"se 2itcoin wi"" never .et mainstreamed #p. And 0 disa.ree wit& t&at. And 0 was sad to see t&at sort o+, 0 .#ess t&e( wo#"d pro2a2"( sa(, we"" we/re 2ein. pra.matic. Beca#se t&is is .onna &ave to &appen an(wa( i+ 2itcoin is .onna s#cceed. 1e"" 0/m .onna take t&e idea"ist position as 0 a"wa(s do. And 0 3#st want to p#t it o#t t&ere and sa(, 0 don/t t&ink t&at &as to &appen. And we can #se 2itcoin as it was initia""( intended and t&ere are

certain"( #ses +or 2itcoin t&at don/t invo"ve sacri+icin. some o+ t&ose .reat t&in.s a2o#t 2itcoin.

AL Ai.&t, and (o# know t&e option is a"wa(s t&ere i+ (o# want to create comp"( coin. 0 t&ink t&at t&at

'! ("a#.&s) $omp"( $oin! Yea&, t&at wo#"d 2e a .reat market idea.

AL -&ere/s a &#.e nic&e +or t&at 0 t&ink.

'! 'ad"( 0 t&ink t&ere are "ots o+ peop"e w&o wo#"d &ear it and t&e(/d sa(, J8&, o& .ood(, 0 can do ever(t&in. t&e re.#"ators want me to do.J

AL Beca#se 0 t&o#.&t... it does e4ist it/s ca""ed Aipp"e.

)! A&, t&ere (o# .o. 1e"" even Aipp"e &as some pro2"ems 2eca#se it is sti"" not anon(mo#s, 2eca#se it &as entr( points and e4it points w&ere t&ere/s identi+ication t&at asks..

'! 1&at do peop"e critici7e Aipp"e +or6 $an (o# 3#st .ive #s overview on t&at6 Beca#se 0 t&ink a "ot o+ o#r "isteners don/t even know w&at Aipp"e is "et a"one #nderstand t&e criticisms o+ it so "et/s ta"k a2o#t t&at.

)! 'o, 0/m ass#min. t&e(/re .reat entreprene#rs. 0/m not dispara.in. t&em. A"" t&e power to t&em +or tr(in. to 2etter t&e ecos(stem. B#t w&en it comes to "ookin. at a"ternative cr(pto c#rrencies t&ere are a co#p"e o+ ke( identi+iers as to w&et&er or not t&is is a scam. And w&en (o# app"( it to somet&in. "ike Aipp"e it kind o+ &as some warnin. si.na"s. 'o one o+ t&em is pre%minin.. 'o i+ (o#/re

'! Are (o# ta"kin. a2o#t LAP w&ic& is t&e c#rrenc( t&at Aipp"e #ses6

)! Yes.

'! 8ka(, so "et/s sa( w&at Aipp"e is +irst, 0 mean.

)! 'orr(.

'! 'o, Aipp"e is "ike, #m... ("a#.&s) so 0 don/t comp"ete"( #nderstand it eit&er so correct me i+ 0/m wron.. B#t, 2asica""( it/s a network w&ere (o# can easi"( convert di++erent c#rrencies. Let/s sa( (o# need to 2orrow H:; to .et some .roceries or somet&in.. Like, (o# co#"d tr#st some2od( w&o tr#sts some2od( e"se in $&ina and t&e( co#"d 2asica""( send % "oan (o# 2itcoins or "oan (o# Aipp"es or "oan (o# 1ans or w&atever and (o# co#"d .et (o#r H:;. And "ike Aipp"e is 3#st "ike t&e medi#m o+ e4c&an.e a"" t&e "endin. takes p"ace o#tside o+ Aipp"e 0 .#ess. B#t it/s 2asica""( a s(stem t&at/s 2#i"t on tr#st, networks 2etween peop"e and it/s a wa( to convert c#rrencies and e4c&an.e credit peer%to%peer.

AL Ai.&t, and o+ co#rse a"" t&ose t&in.s (o# sa( 2asica""( trans"ate to its de2t transmission network. 1&ere essentia""( (o#/re not. And t&is is w&( (o# can sed do""ars t&ro#.& it so +ast. A.ain, (o# can send do""ars as +ast as (o# can send 2itcoin 2eca#se (o#/re not rea""( sendin. t&e do""ars. Yo#/re trans+errin. a de2t +rom somet&in. t&at (o# own and (o#/re app"(in. it to some2od( e"se.

)! And 0 t&ink w&en (o# "ook at Aipp"e it/s an ama7in. iterative step on o#r c#rrent 2ankin.B+inancia" s(stem.

AL -&is is, t&is is important.

)! And 0 "ook at it, and 0/m "ike, 0 know +ive (ears +rom now or t&ree (ears +rom now w&en con.ress is .onna start "ookin. at t&is space t&e(/re .onna 2e "ike, J1e"" w&( can/t (o# 2e "ike (o#r 2rot&er6 Aipp"e/s a2"e to do it &ow come (o# .#(s can/t do it6 $/mon 2itcoin, .et wit& it.J 'o 0 t&ink t&at ripp"e is a .reat transitor(, (o# know, transition into 2itcoin.

'! B#t t&at too", t&e de2t trans+er network e4ists o#tside o+ t&e cr(pto c#rrenc( Aipp"es. -&e cr(pto c#rrenc( is somew&at simi"ar to 2itcoin. Yo# know, ri.&t6 And t&at/s w&at (o# were ta"kin. a2o#t 2e+ore w&en (o# said t&ere/s a red +"a. 2eca#se t&e( pre%mined LAP and t&en were .ivin. t&em awa(, is t&at ri.&t6

)! Yea&.

'! 'o (ea&, .o on, contin#e wit& t&at.

)! 'o, 0 mean t&ere are a co#p"e o+ red +"a.s w&en (o# are "ookin. at cr(pto%c#rrencies t&at 3#st .et started and one o+ t&em is: &as t&e owner pre%mined it6 And i+ (o# "ook at t&e distri2#tion o+ Aipp"e t&at are in e4istence. Like :; peop"e own a si.ni+icant portion o+ t&e Aipp"e.

AL -&e( pre%mined a"" o+ t&em, didn/t t&e(.

)! Yea&. 0t/s 9;;F pre%mined.

AL B#t it/s a "itt"e 2it mis%"eadin. 2eca#se in t&e Aipp"e network (o#/re not rea""(, it/s not "ike 0/m .onna send =; ripp"es to (o# and t&en (o#/re .onna cas& t&e ripp"es. 0t/s more "ike Aipp"es are stamps. 1&ere it/s "ike an anti%spam mec&anism more t&an it is a va"#e trans+er mec&anic.

)! B#t 0 remem2er readin. somew&ere t&at i+ (o# "ooked at t&e c#rrent market price o+ a Aipp"e and t&en (o# m#"tip"ied it 2( t&e 9;;%2i""ion Aipp"es t&e( &ave or w&atever it is, t&at it was e5#a" to t&e va"#e o+ t&e market cap o+ t&e 2itcoin network.

AL 'o t&e( .ave t&emse"ves an impressive pre%market eva"#ation.

)! Yea& ("a#.&s). 'o 0 don/t know &ow t&at works, 2#t it kind o+ "ooks "ike t&e(/re a2"e to print mone( in m( opinion.

Break

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AL 0 t&ink t&at w&at (o# said t&ere a2o#t Aipp"e 2ein. an iterative step is rea""( important 2eca#se t&at/s t&e t&in.. 0s t&at, ,i+ Aipp"e &ad come o#t% and to a certain de.ree 0 t&ink t&is e4tends to open transactions too, 2eca#se it a"so is a de2t transition mec&anism 2eca#se. Yo# can/t % 2itcoin and cr(pto%c#rrencies are so +"#id 2eca#se t&e( don/t e4ist in rea" "i+e. 'o w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t assets t&at &ave rea" "i+e presence (o# simp"( can/t cram t&ose down and s&ove t&em t&ro#.& an internet connection. 'o it &as to 2e a de2t transition mec&anism in order to do t&at. B#t t&e t&in. is t&at wit& 2itcoin and wit& cr(pto% c#rrencies (o# don/t need to do t&at at a"". 0t/s #nnecessar(. And

especia""( w&en we move to a more di.ita" econom( w&ere t&e need to do t&at at a"" .oes awa( 2asica""(. 'o (o# know, a.ain, it/s one o+ t&ose t&in.s w&ere i+ t&e Aipp"e s(stem &ad come o#t 2e+ore 2itcoin we/d 2e &avin. a ver( di++erent conversation now. And now it/d pro2a2"( 2e Lets-a"kAipp"e. Beca#se 0 mean and a.ain, compared to t&e 2ankin. s(stem we &ave now it/s so m#c& more e++icient compared to cr(pto c#rrencies. 0t/s "ess compe""in..

)! 0 3#st t&ink t&at i+ t&e t&in. t&at 2itcoin does is +orce t&e c#rrent 2akin. paradi.m to move to Aipp"e and t&en t&e conversation is Aipp"e vs. 2itcoin. 0 t&ink t&at/s a +antastic wor"d to "ive in.

'! Yea&, 0 comp"ete"( a.ree.

AL And (o# know, t&at/s an interestin. point, 2eca#se (o# know t&at certain"( co#"d 2e % Aipp"e &as .otten a "ot o+ &i.&%pro+i"e investors. And t&at certain"( co#"d 2e t&e p"a( t&e( &ave in mind is t&at oka(, so (o#/ve .ot t&ese cr(pto%c#rrencies 2#t t&e(Mre kind o+ +"at"( incompati2"e wit& t&e e4istin. +inancia" s(stem so i+ we/re .onna move towards somet&in. t&at/s more "ike t&at t&en t&is is an intermediar( step t&at we can take t&at we know a"read( comp"ies and can 2e easi"( inte.rated in. And so t&en we 3#st se"" it essentia""( so+tware as a service to a"" t&ese 2ankin. instit#tions aro#nd t&e wor"d. Bo2/s (o#r #nc"e, (o# know we/re t&e de+acto center o+ it a"" a.ain. 0t/s a ver( interestin. space +or t&em to operate in ri.&t now 0 t&ink.

)! 1as t&ere someone +rom Aipp"e at t&e con+erence6

AL

Yes. 0/m not s#re i+ 0 ta"ked to an(one +rom Aipp"e. -&e coin t&in. and t&e open t&in., ver( ver( di++ic#"t. 'o man( companies t&ere &ave t&ose in t&e names. 0t/s "ike w&en 0 #sed to work in t&e .reen space and ever(2od( #sed to &ave "ike .reen or 2io or a"" t&ose ot&er nonsense. And it/s "ike a.ain, t&e +irst co#p"e companies t&at do it. -&at/s .reat. And t&en t&e ne4t E;; companies t&at do it % it/s con+#sin.!

'! 'o i+ (o# meet someone new and (o# +or.et w&at compan( t&e(/re wit& (o#/re "ike, J8& (ea&, (o#/re +rom coin...J 0/m "ike, JYea&, $oinPe., Yea&.J

)! 0 saw 3 di++erent acco#ntants w&o &ad a p"a( on 2itcoin acco#ntant in t&e name. And 0 3#st co#"dn/t remem2er t&em 2eca#se t&e( were so simi"ar in t&e name.

'! 0 .ot some peop"e remem2erin. variations o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin act#a""( "ike. 'omeone .oes, J8&, (ea&. Yo#/re +rom Bitccoin-a"k.J And t&en someone .oes, JYo#/re +rom Bit-a"kLive.J. ("a#.&s) Lets-a"kBitcoin6 8& rea" 5#ick. 1&at/s t&e di++erence 2etween Aipp"e and 8pen$oin or 8pen transactions6

AL 8pen transactions. 'o Aipp"e is t&e prod#ct o+ a compan( ca""ed 8pen$oin. And 8pen transactions is a prod#ct o+ a compan( ca""ed !ono-oss. And we/ve interviewed $&ris 8dom 2e+ore,, &e .oes 2( Fe""ow -rave"er. e/s a pod.ener o+ t&at tec&no"o.(. 0 t&ink &e/s more o+ a marketer t&an a code .#(. B#t &e mana.ed to p#t it to.et&er to t&e point w&ere &e/s rea""( 2een a2"e to attract some attention. 0 know t&at t&e( eit&er &ave 3#st +#nded or t&e( are in t&e process o+ +#ndin. ri.&t now and are raisin. a prett( decent amo#nt o+ capita" 2eca#se a.ain. -&ere/s a "ot o+... (o# know a.ain, w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t t&ese s(stems it/s so m#c& easier to comp"( wit& t&ese vario#s de2t trans+er mec&anisms 2eca#se t&e( inte.rate so m#c& 2etter so (o#

know a.ain t&at/s w&ere a "ot o+ t&e mone( seems "ike it/s .oin.. -&at and a"tcoins too, t&ere are some a"tcoins t&at are .ettin. some traction.

'! 0 ta"k to a "itecoin deve"oper (esterda(, and t&ere were some "itecoin peop"e t&ere, and t&e( were so coo" and p"easant to ta"k to. And 0 was "ike 0 can/t wait to see w&ere t&e(/re .oin.. 0 t&ink we/re .onna &ave an interview wit& 1orm w&o is one o+ t&e "itecoin dev/s to ta"k a2o#t t&e new re"ease and w&at t&e(/re .oin. to do wit& "itecoin in t&e +#t#re. And 0/m 3#st impressed wit& "ike... t&ere/s more in+rastr#ct#re t&at/s comin. o#t. Not 3#st wit& "itecoins 2#t wit& a"" t&ese di++erent a"tcoins. A "ot o+ t&ese coins are w&ere 2itcoin was a co#p"e o+ (ears a.o. And 0 t&ink peop"e see t&at and ma(2e +ee" "ike t&e( missed t&e 2oat or w&atever. -&e( .ot in too "ate and t&e( want to .et in. 0 t&ink we/re sti"" ver( ear"( in t&e adoption c#rve o+ even 2itcoin. B#t it/s temptin., (o# see an a"t coin an dit "ooks "ike it &as potentia", (o# know, (o# wanna .et in on t&e .ro#nd +"oor and see w&at it does.

AL E4act"(, (o# know t&e m#"tip"ier is 3#st so enormo#s. A.ain, (o# "ook at 2itcoin, certain"( a m#"tip"ier. 0t co#"d 2e enormo#s ass#min. (o# &ave a w&o"e 2#nc& o+ &#ndred do""ars to t&row at 2#(in. some 2itcoin. B#t (o# know, wit& t&e a"ts, t&e 2#( in, (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t pennies,. And t&e potentia" is sti"" t&ere +or t&at price increase. 1e don/t ta"k a2o#t t&e price 2#t +rom a spec#"ative standpoint, it seems "ike i+ (o# co#"d identi+( t&e ri.&t a"ts t&at act#a""( &ave t&e ri.&t c&aracteristics to .ive #s a c&ance o+ makin. it 2i., t&at is rea""( w&ere t&e e4ponentia" potentia" is +or a ver( sma"" investment to convert into a 2i. one.

'! Yea&, and 0 remem2er one o+ o#r +irst episodes o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin, 0 want to sa( it was "ike 3 or E. 1e ta"ked a2o#t a"tcoins and we .ave a r#ndown o+ some o+ t&e most pop#"ar ones. 1e"" even now 3#st a +ew mont&s "ater, t&ere are &#ndreds o+ a"tcoins. And no2od( can keep t&em strai.&t. 0 was ta"kin. to some2od( (esterda(, and 0 said so w&at are t&e( ot&er script%2ased a"tcoins6 And &e said o&! -&ere are at "east E; 0 can name o++ t&e top o+ m( &ead. 0 said E;6 0 on"( know o+

"ike =!

)! YMknow, it/s a testament to t&e space t&at 0/m kind o+ eatin. m( words. 'evera" mont&s a.o 0/d kind o+ make +#n o+ "itecoin, and now t&e disc#ssion is, ma(2e 2eca#se o+ minin. centra"i7ation 2itcoin needs to 2ecome more "ike "itecoin. 'o (o# know (o#/re seein. t&e +ree market at work 2eca#se w&en (o# a""ow peop"e to do w&atever it is t&e( want to do in t&e space, t&e market "eader &as to "earn +rom t&e trai".

'! 0 t&ink it/s rea""( important to keep an open mind. 0+ (o# "ike t&e concept o+ 2itcoin, or i+ (o# 3#st "ike t&e concept o+ crp(to c#rrenc( in .enera", i+ (o# "ike an(t&in. a2o#t it. Aea"i7e t&at t&ere/s t&e potentia" % "ike, we/re sti"" +i.#rin. t&is o#t and ma(2e it/s 2itcoin, ma(2e it/s "itecoin, ma(2e it/s some ot&er coin, or ma(2e it/s .onna 2e a 2#nc& o+ di++erent coins. -&at/s .onna predominate. $omin. #p.

AL over t&e "ast = mont&s 0/ve rea""( .one +rom t&ere can 2e on"( one camp to rea"i7in. t&at/s pro2a2"( act#a""( not .oin. to 2e t&e case. And it/s 2eca#se (2eep) &appens, and st#++ c&an.es, and w&en t&in.s c&an.e. And (o# know, t&at/s t&e t&in., is t&at "ike, w&en t&in.s c&an.e it/s .onna &appen +ast. 'o now w&at 0 &ave kind o+ over t&e "ast +ew weeks come to 2e"ieve is t&at ri.&t now we/re in essentia""( a 2e"ie+ 2#22"e. 1&ere ever(2od( "ooks at t&e cr(pto c#rrenc( space. And 2eca#se it/s so new t&e( "ook and t&e( sa(, oka(, 2itcoin is t&e one. And t&en t&ere/s a"" t&ese ot&er ones. -&e( don/t matter. And t&e( don/t matter ri.&t now. B#t it/s 2eca#se peop"e on"( "ook at 2itcoin. 1&at/s .onna &appen is t&e(/re .onna see some destr#ctive c&an.es comin. in 2itcoin/s +#t#re w&et&er or not t&e deve"opin. team "ikes it and 0 t&ink t&at we/re pro2a2"( .oin. to wind #p seein. t&at i""#sion to t&at 2#22"e .et popped. -&e i""#sion dispe""ed and at t&at point s#dden"( it wi"" 2e a w&o"e new 2a"" .ame i+ (o# start an a"t. And it/"" 2e m#c& more a2o#t t&e merits o+ (o#r c#rrenc( rat&er t&an a2o#t w&et&er or not (o#/ve a"read( ac&ieved an (ina#di2"e (:;:=9). A.ain, 2eca#se t&ere/s t&at potentia" +or t&e e4ponentia" m#"tip"ier o+ ver( sma"" investments to convert into ver( "ar.e ones.

'! -&ere is somet&in. to 2e said +or ac&ievin. t&e network e++ect t&o#.&.

AL $ertain"(. 0t/s no sma"" 2arrier 0 don/t mean to sa( t&at.

)! Essentia""( w&at (o#/re sa(in. is we/re waitin. +or 2itcoin to &ave its !t. *o4 event.

AL Ai.&t, e4act"(, 2#t (o# can t&ink a2o#t it "ike t&is. 1&en 2itcoin &as its !t. *o4 event instead o+ a"" t&e mone( in !t. *o4 2ein. "ocked down, 2itcoin is tota""( "i5#id. 'o it/s ver( ver( eas( to 3#st (2eep) s"ip into t&e ne4t one. 0 &ave to edit t&at. 0/ve 2een swearin. +or t&e "ast co#p"e o+ da(s...

)! 0t/s New York it does it to (o#. ("a#.&) 0 mean 2#t (ea&, (o# &ad a compan( t&at &ad ever(t&in. .oin. +or it. 0t &ad @;%somet&in. percent o+ t&e space and t&ro#.& a series o+ #n+ort#nate events, t&at wo#"d &ave &appened to an(one w&o % t&e point a2o#t a trai"2"a7er.

'! 0t took a "ot o+ #n+ort#nate events t&o#.&, 0 mean once it .ot to t&e critica" point it was &ard to knock it down o++ t&e pedesta", ri.&t6

)! Ai.&t, and 0 mean t&e same co#"d 2e said a2o#t 2itcoin +or e4amp"e, peop"e "ike to +or.et t&at 2itcoin is ;.> version ri.&t now. 0t is sti"" a 2eta. 0t is a m#"ti%2i""ion do""ar 2eta. And, w&at/s to stop some random error t&at no one &as seen 3#st wreckin. t&e w&o"e t&in.6

AL 8&, so we s&o#"d ta"k a2o#t t&at. 8n t&at note, so we &ad some conversation +rom some miners, 'tep&anie 0 know t&at (o# interviewed. 0 &ad some conversations o++ t&e record wit& some peop"e a2o#t t&is kind o+ 5#estion. 'peci+ica""( a2o#t, we ta"ked a2o#t 8PE$ was it6

'! 8 E$

AL 8& &eck, o& &eck, t&at was it.

'! 8r.ani7ation asin. Power E4porters

AL Yea&, t&at/s ri.&t, so some peop"e didn/t #nderstand w&at we were ta"kin. a2o#t. 0t was kind o+ a 3oke, 2eca#se, t&e o& &eck was kind o+ a 3oke. Beca#se in order +or t&at... in case (o# &aven/t "istened to t&e "ast episode w&ere we ta"ked a2o#t t&is, 2asica""( GN$ miner re"eased a statement sa(in. t&at t&e( were .oin. to stop s&ippin. A'0$ #nits +rom Novem2er t&ro#.& N9 o+ =;9E wit& t&e idea 2ein. t&at t&is wo#"d protect t&e investment o+ t&e peop"e w&o &ave p#rc&ased e5#ipment comin. 2e+ore 2eca#se in N= t&e(/re .oin. to re"ease, and t&e( co#"d in N9 2#t t&e(/re .onna &o"d it #nti" N=... #m, are .oin. to re"ease &ardware t&at is orders o+ ma.nit#de c&eaper and +aster t&an w&at peop"e &ave previo#s"( ordered. And so i+ t&e( were to re"ease it at t&e pace o+ tec&no"o.( t&en t&e peop"e w&o were .ettin. t&is minin. &ardware wo#"d 2e a"most instant"( o2so"eted and &ave no opport#nit( to earn t&eir mone( 2ack. And o+ co#rse t&at/s 2ad i+ (o#/re a 2#siness t&at tries to &ave c#stomers t&at 2#( (o#r prod#ct i+ (o#/re iteratin. so +ast wit& t&e tec&no"o.( t&at peop"e can/t even &ave a c&ance to make 2ack t&eir investment.

)! A"t&o#.& 0 wo#"d "ike to sa( in t&is space t&at 0 persona""( t&ink t&at/s a .reat marketin. pitc& +or t&eir compan( 2#t t&at i+ (o# "ook at w&at &appened in t&e past wit& EFC o+ Ava"on. e &ad said &e( "ook, we/re t&e market "eader 3#st 2eca#se 0 &ad no idea t&at ever( sin."e ot&er compan( wo#"dn/t s&ip. 1&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t &ow s#ccess+#" (o#/re .onna 2e at e4ec#tin. in t&is space it/s a space t&at &as a "ot o+ peop"e not e4ec#tin.. 'o 0 3#st t&ink t&at i+ t&e( co#"d do w&at t&e( sa( t&e(/re .onna do t&e( s&o#"d 3#st do it. Beca#se e4ec#tin. in t&is space is so rare t&at 0 t&ink t&e market needs t&at more t&an it needs someone 2ein. it/s Batman. -&e protector it ma( not need 2#t it needs... it doesn/t know 2#t it wants.

AL Yo# know 0 a.ree wit& (o# t&ere, 2#t t&at/s t&e t&in.. 1&en ta"kin. wit& t&ese .#(s 0 spoke wit& t&e .#( 'am +rom.. was t&at &is name6

'! 'am.

AL 'am +rom GN$. And a"so t&ere were one or two ot&er A'0$ man#+act#rers w&ose names 0 didn/t catc& in t&is "itt"e conversation we were &avin.. Yo# know t&at (o#/re .onna &ave to .et to.et&er wit& a"" t&e ot&er p"a(ers o#t t&ere and (o# .#(s are a"" .onna &ave to stop s&ippin.,

'! Yea&, "ike a carte".

AL Yea&, e4act"( e4act"(. And &e was "ike, (ea& 0 know. -&en we started ta"kin. a2o#t &ow, &e started te""in. me &ow it was .ood +or 2itcoin

and &ow t&e( were 3#st .oin. to .et to.et&er and t&e(/d +i.&t +or t&ree mont&s and t&en t&e(/d 2e "ike ok .#(s, "et/s .o 2ack and re%work o#r tec&no"o.(. -&en we/"" come 2ack t&ree mont&s "ater. 1e/"" +i.&t a.ain. 'o we/"" &ave t&ese on and o++ a.ain re"ease sc&ed#"e t&at/s coordinated t&ro#.&o#t t&e space. And so a.ain, &e +e"t % we t&o#.&t it was a 3oke. 1e t&o#.&t it was a marketin. p"a(. At "east 0 certain"( did w&en we were ta"kin. a2o#t it 2e+ore. 'peakin. wit& t&ese .#(s, t&e( were dead serio#s a2o#t it. -&at is t&eir p"an. 0 mean, do (o# t&ink t&e( can p#"" it o++6

'! 8&, .os&. 0 mean, a "ot o+ t&e ot&er companies were sa(in., (ea& 0 t&ink we/"" p"a(. 0 t&ink we/"" do t&at.

AL Yea&, )os& +rom B#tter+"( La2s, (ea& said somet&in.. Basica""(, so 0 was "ike (o# know, so t&ese .#(s are .onna tr( to do t&is, 0 spoke to t&em separate"(.

'! B#t 0 .#ess t&e 5#estion is, is t&ere some ot&er compan( o#t t&ere w&o is 2ein. comp"ete"( 5#iet, and is tota""( o++ t&e radar is a wi"d card and is .oin. to come #p wit& some power+#" A'0$ d#rin. t&at time +rame. And t&at co#"d t&row a wrenc& in ever(2od(/s work. GN$ said t&at i+ some2od( does t&at t&e(/re .onna contin#e to re"ease t&eir devices as 2est t&e( can.

AL Ai.&t, e4act"(, e4act"(, so t&at/s t&e t&in., i+ t&e carte" +ai"s, t&en ever(2od( is 3#st +ree +or a"" wi"d west a.ain, ever(2od( re"eases as +ast as t&e( can. And o+ co#rse t&en t&e 5#estion 2ecomes w&at/s t&e 2a"ance 2etween re"easin. so t&at (o#/re t&e +irst one o#t and (o#/re t&e +irst. Beca#se ot&erw% i+ (o#/re t&e "ast man o#t t&e door, t&en c&ance are prett( .ood. Peop"e w&o are e4cited a2o#t 2#(in. t&at especia""( wit& as +ast as t&e tec& is movin. are not .oin. to &ave an( reason to 2#( (o#r prod#ct. Cn"ess t&ere/s a materia" advanta.e. And it doesn/t rea""( seem "ike an(one is .oin. o#t o+ t&eir wa(. 1&at 0/ve

2een waitin. +or is a tr#"( p"#.%n%p"a( A'0$ so"#tion. And as +ar as 0/m concerned we sti"" &ave (et to see an(t&in. "ike t&at.

)! Yo# know t&e Ava"on at Bit0nstant &as 2een not opera2"e in t&e past co#p"e o+ weeks 3#st 2eca#se it 2roke and no one knows &ow to +i4 it. 'o t&e one 2itcoin per da( t&at it co#"d 2e makin. +or t&e +o#ndation.

'! 0s t&at w&( (0+#) is &ere to +i4 it6

)! Yea&, t&at/s w&( &e came 2ack +rom $&ina. 'o t&e(/re 3#st "ike a&&&, t&e( c"ear"( &ave ot&er t&in.s t&at t&e( &ave to dea" wit&.

AL Ai.&t, we"".

)! -&ese t&in.s are comp"icated.

AL -&e( are!

'! 0/ve seen a pict#re o+ t&at t&in. and it/s +#nn( 2eca#se "ike (o# see A'0$s advertised on"ine and it/s "ike a s"eek "itt"e 2"ack 2o4 wit& (o# know a C'D ca2"e comin. o++ o+ it. -&is t&in. "ooks "ike... 0 don/t know, it "ooks i"ke a printin. press. 0t/s 2i., it/s "ike open, it doesn/t &ave a nice case or an(t&in. 2#t it works. 8r at "east it did work #nti" 3#st a co#p"e weeks a.o. B#t, (ea&, t&at was a w&i"e a.o t&at t&e +irst 2atc&

o+ Ava"on A'0$s s&ipped, so it/s 2een opera2"e +or a w&i"e.

)! Yea&, t&e( &ad a .ood r#n.

'! Yea&, de+inite"(. -&e( were in a .reat position. B#t 0 mean 'am was sa(in. +rom GN$ miner t&at t&is is act#a""( .ood +or 2itcoin. 0t/s not centra"i7in. it/s act#a""( t&at t&e(/re tr(in. to .et A'0$s into t&e &ands o+ as man( peop"e as possi2"e. -&e avera.e person, and &e was sa(in. t&at A'0$s are a rea"it(, ever(one/s .oin. to 2e &avin. t&em at some point, and we/re .onna tr( and .et t&em into as man( &ands as possi2"e so t&at t&e minin. power is distri2#ted.

)! 'o (o# .#(s were on one o+ w&at 0 wo#"d sa( one o+ t&e most interestin. pane"s. )onat&an and 'tep&anie, (o# .#(s were 2ot& on t&e Bitcoin O Free 'peec&, moderated 2( o#r .ood +riend !ark os&tein +rom American Banker.

'! Yea&, &e was so coo". 0 .ot to know &im t&e ot&er ni.&t, (ea& &e was rea""( +#n to ta"k to.

)! !arks/ t&e man. 0/"" te"" (o# t&at.

'! -&at was a +#n pane". 1e .ot a "ot o+ positive +eed2ack on it. 0t was sort o+ a nice co#nter%2a"ance to a"" t&e peop"e sa(in. (ea& we need more re.#"ation. And we were "ike no, 2itcoin is +ree speec&!

)! Yea&, we"" 0 t&ink an( pane" t&at in E: min#tes ta"ks a2o#t prostit#tion, dr#.s and .#ns is doin. t&e ri.&t t&in. to 2itcoin.

'! 1e"" Adam .ot some a#dio o+ it so 0 t&ink (o#/"" 2e a2"e to &ear t&at prett( soon.

AL Yea& (ea& (ea&, it t#rns o#t t&e( weren/t +i"min. an( o+ t&e ta"ks t&ere. 'o 0 took t&e E!, t&at/s w&at we/re recordin. on ri.&t now, and 0 .ot a direct +eed o#t o+ t&e 2oard. And t&en o+ co#rse +or a2o#t &a"+ o+ t&em 0 +or.ot to press t&e 2#tton twice. Yo# &ad to press t&e 2#tton twice on t&is t&in. ot&erwise it doesn/t work. And 0 was r#nnin. aro#nd t&e entire time, 2#t 0 on"( ca#.&t ma(2e 3 or E o+ t&e ta"ks. B#t t&e ones t&at we did .et we are .oin. to 2e re"easin..

'! -&at/s .reat, (ea&. 0/m rea""( ."ad (o# did t&at. 0 wasn/t e4pectin. t&em not to 2e +i"min.. B#t ma(2e, (ea& ma(2e t&e ne4t event t&e( wi"".

AL 1e"", w&at 0% so a.ain, so t&is event was rea""( coo". 0 act#a""( t&o#.&t t&e event was prett( interestin., p#t on prett( we"". 0t was a "itt"e 2it more e4pensive t&an 0 wo#"d &ave "iked. 0 know some peop"e co#"dn/t attend 2eca#se t&e cost was simp"( prett( &i.& re"ative to t&e% (o# know, t&e 'an )ose con+erence was "ike H9>; +or a two da( event. -&is one i+ (o# .ot t&e ear"( 2ird price it was H=@@. 0+ (o# #sed o#r =;F co#pon it/s "ess t&an t&at.

'! For one da(.

AL For one da(. And at t&e door it was H:@@.

)! 1ow.

'! Aea""(6 0t was packed t&o#.&.

AL Yea&. 0t was packed. 0t was packed. And a.ain, over time peop"e more dri+ted o#t o+ t&e ta"ks and more into t&e networkin. area and t&at/s w&at &appened wit& 2ot& (o# and 0.

)! B#t t&e t&in. a2o#t t&ese con+erences is it kind o+ is a2o#t t&e price t&at t&e( c&ar.e 3#st 2eca#se t&e price is an indicator o+ &ow 2ad (o# want it.

AL we"" it determines t&e t(pe o+ a#dience t&at (o# .et.

)! -&at/s w&at 0/m sa(in., so (o# know t&at t&e ot&er person wanted it 2ad eno#.& to eit&er scam t&eir wa( into t&e con+erence as 0 &appened to &ave done. 8r to act#a""( &ave paid t&e +ee.

'! 0t/s not scammin. we .ave t&em somet&in. o+ va"#e.

)! -r#e. -&at/s tr#e.

'! 'o (ea&, 2ack to t&e pane". 'o 0 t&o#.&t it was rea""( coo" 2eca#se we .ot to ta"k a2o#t wiki"eaks and some o+ t&e potentia" 2itcoin &as to &e"p or.ani7ations t&at mi.&t 2e mar.ina"i7ed. And t&e idea o+ 2itcoin ne#tra"it( w&ic& is somet&in. 0 know is rea""( interestin. to Andreas so 0/m c#rio#s to &ear &is t&o#.&ts a2o#t t&at. B#t t&e idea o+ ne#tra"it( 2ein.% (o# know, i+ (o# &ave a tec&no"o.( "ike 2itcoin t&at an(2od( can #se,, t&at/s 3#st it! An(2od( can #se it, ri.&t6 'o some peop"e, t&e(/re .onna 2e peop"e (o# don/t "ike, t&at #se it. And t&e(/re .onna #se it +or t&in.s t&at (o# don/t "ike. B#t t&ere are a"so .onna 2e peop"e w&o are .reat w&o #se it, and w&o #se it +or t&in.s t&at (o# do "ike. And (o# can/t .et rid o+ t&e so ca""ed 2ad peop"e wit&o#t .ettin. rid o+ ever(2od(/s privac( and +reedom. 'o...

AL Ai.&t, t&is is t&e t&eme t&at comes #p over and over and over a.ain. And it was ta"ked a2o#t in (o#r pane" prett( e4tensive"(. -&e idea 2ein. t&at i+ t&e point is to protect #s +rom crime, and to protect t&e wor"d +rom certain t(pes o+ t&in.s "ike terrorism, &#man tra++ickin. and t&in.s "ike t&at. -&en t&at/s a"" we"" and .ood. And t&at/s a no2"e .oa". B#t 'tep&anie, (o# &ad a .reat point. Yo# said it/s a"" a2o#t di++erentiatin. t&e transaction +rom t&e act#a" crime. And t&e di++erentiatin. +actor t&ere is t&at a crime &as a victim w&ereas a +inancia" transaction &as a recipient. -&at mi.&t 2e somet&in. t&at ena2"es t&e crime. B#t it/s t&e crime%

'! 8& p"ease, victimi7e me 2( sendin. me mone(.

AL B#t it/s a"" a2o#t esta2"is&in. t&at &arm is act#a""( done not t&at some2od( paid +or somet&in. t&at mi.&t &ave potentia""( ca#sed a

pro2"em down t&e road. Beca#se once (o# start doin. t&at it .ives (o# t&e rationa"e to start "istenin. to ever(2od( to start trackin. ever(t&in.. And t&at mi.&t make sense in some sort o+ weird A"ice 0n 1onder"and, t&ro#.& t&e "ookin. ."ass wor"d. B#t 0 t&ink in t&e wor"d we "ive in most peop"e wo#"d a.ree t&at i+ @@.@@F o+ peop"e aren/t doin. st#++ "ike t&at. And (o# know t&at sma"" percenta.e is % it pro2a2"( doesn/t make sense, is inconvenient and essentia""( remove t&e privac( o+ t&at @@.@@F t&at aren/t doin. t&ose 2ad t&in.s 3#st to tr( and stop or at "east detect. Beca#se t&at/s t&e ot&er t&in. o+ co#rse is t&at we/re not even ta"kin. a2o#t stoppin. t&ese t&in.s +rom &appenin.. 1e/re ta"kin. a2o#t p#nis&in. t&em. P#nis&in. t&em a+ter t&e +act so 0 mean it makes no sense. E4cept o+ co#rse in t&is A"ice 0n 1onder"and wor"d we "ive in.

)! Yo# know w&en t&e $E8 o+ Discover( was interviewed and t&e( .o w&at do (o# owe (o#r s#ccess to6 e said. Yo# know, s&arks and Na7is. And 0 kind o+ +ee" "ike w&en it comes to 2itcoins and w&en it comes to sec#rit(, it/s a"wa(s t&e terrorists and t&e pedop&i"es. And t&at/s a"wa(s t&e disc#ssion o+ ever(t&in. a"wa(s comes down to t&e . ;9F o+ 2ad actors t&at need to dictate t&e rest o+ t&e @@.@@F o+ t&e market. And it 3#st drives me insane 2eca#se w&en (o#/re ta"kin. a2o#t 2itcoin it/s, not&in. e4ists in t&e vac##m. 0t/s a"wa(s in compared to w&at. And w&en t&e .ent"eman asked t&at 5#estion o+..

'! Yea&, ri.&t, &ow man( cas& transactions are #sed in activities t&at potentia""( &#rt peop"e and do &ave victims and... 0 mean, 0 wo#"d ar.#e t&at 2#(in. dr#.s +or persona" cons#mption is a victim"ess crime.

)! Ai.&t (o# weren/t .oin. to win t&at ar.#ment t&ere.

'! 0 don/t know, 0 t&ink some peop"e were s(mpat&etic to #s. Especia""( t&e .#( w&o asked t&at 5#estion. B#t, #m, 2#t (ea&. 1&en (o#/re

ta"kin. a2o#t t&in.s t&at act#a""( are crimes, t&at act#a""( &ave a victim, t&at are ca#sin. &arm to peop"e. 8rders o+ ma.nit#de more o+ t&ose are done in cas& or are done t&ro#.& t&e "e.ac( 2ankin. s(stem. 0 mean, 0 t&ink 0 2ro#.&t #p t&e point on t&e pane" t&at dr#. dea"ers, "oan s&arks, t&e( &ave 2ank acco#nts.

AL And (o# know, A""en 'a+onte, o& .os&, 0/m pro2a2"( misprono#ncin. t&e name. As+a&e6 8k, (ea&, #m, +rom PipPap. Yo# know, &e/s an 0ranian and &as 2een "ivin. in t&is co#ntr( +or a "on. time. And one o+ t&e t&in.s t&at &e ta"ked a2o#t was &ow ri.&t now (o# can .o into an( store and 2#( essentia""( H:;; o+ +ree paid Iisa cards or prepaid de2it cards and t&ere/s no GY$ processors, no identit( processors w&atsoever. Yo# can .o in and (o# can 2#( a s&oe2o4 +#"" and t&e( are 3#st as .ood as cas&...

'! -ake /em across t&e 2oarder.

AL E4act"( so it/s "ike, so t&e idea &ere is t&at on t&e internet it/s di++erent. 0 mean, (o# t&ink a2o#t it, and it/s not di++erent. 0t/s not di++erent at a"", t&ere/s not&in. di++erent a2o#t it.

)! 1e"", 0 mean, t&e internetMs di++erent. )#st 2eca#se .randdad doesn/t know &ow t&e t#2es work...0 mean (o# "ook at p#nis&ment in terms o+ t&e internet and (o# .ra++iti a p"ace and (o#/"" .et some comm#nit( service. B#t (o# DDo' a resta#rant or a we2site and now (o# .et (ears. And it/s a compra2"e act o+ writin. .ra++iti or takin. a site down +or a +ew min#tes. Especia""( i+ t&ere are no dama.es i+ it/s a non% commerce site. And it/s 3#st t&e prosec#tions o+ t&in.s t&at are comp#ter re"ated are...

'!

-&at/s w&(.. ok, so it so#nds "ike w&at (o#/re sa(in. 2asica""( is t&at t&e re.#"ations or "ike t&e "e.a" s(stem &asn/t ca#.&t #p wit& t&e +act t&at we &ave t&e internet and t&ere are ana"o.ies to "ike rea" wor"d p&(sica" t&in.s t&at &appen in t&e wor"d inc"#din. so%ca""ed crimes and st#++ "ike t&at. And so, w&at 0 wonder is, t&ere m#st &ave 2een peop"e... and peop"e compare 2itcoin to t&e internet in 9@@=, 2itcoin ri.&t now. 'o t&ere m#st &ave 2een peop"e in t&e ear"( da(s o+ t&e internet w&o were tr(in. to ed#cate t&e "e.is"ators and were tr(in. to te"" t&e .overnment t&is is w&at t&e internet does and &ere/s &ow (o# can re.#"ate it in a wa( t&at makes it +riend"( to #s. -&ere &ad to &ave 2een peop"e tr(in. to do t&at 2#t it sti"" &asn/t ca#.&t #p. 0 mean, =; (ears "ater we sti"" don/t &ave modern "aws t&at #nderstand t&e internet in a wa(. 0t/s sti"" sort o+ 2ack in t&e.. comparin. it to p&ones and +a4es and t&in.s "ike t&at.

)! Gevin !itnik &as an ama7in. a#to%2io.rap&(. And in it &e writes a2o#t &ow &e wo#"d &ack a"" o+ t&ese esta2"is&ments 2#t &e wasn/t doin. an(t&in. i""e.a" 2eca#se t&ere were no "aws on t&e 2ooks on it. 'o t&e( were "ike, a"ri.&t weM"" "et (a .o t&is time. And t&at was 3#st an ama7in. time to e4perience and w&ere t&e internet was so new t&at t&ere were no "aws on it 3#st "ike 2itcoin is ri.&t now.

AL 'o w&at/s t&e ?;%second 2io.rap&( as (o# know it on Gevin Bitnik +or t&ose w&o don/t know6

)! 'o it/s ca""ed a *&ost in t&e !ac&ine. And essentia""( it/s w&at ta#.&t me t&at Gevin Bitnik is c&aotic ne#tra". Beca#se &e &ad t&e power to take down 2i""ion do""ar esta2"is&ments and &e co#"d &ave 2een t&e )#"ian Assan.e a &#ndred times over 2#t 3#st wanted to do it so t&at &e co#"d 2e a p&one p&reak and 3#st "ike prank ca"" peop"e. e once .ot c#t o++ in tra++ic and .ot t&e .#(/s "icense p"ate n#m2er, .ot &is ce"" p&one n#m2er, ca""ed &im a +ew min#tes "ater and t&en said t&at i+ (o#/re ever on t&e road a.ain 0 wi"" take (o#r "icense awa( +rom (o#. -&at/s t&e power t&at &e &ad. And &e didn/t #se it +or .ood, &e didn/t #se it +or evi", &e #sed it +or Gevin Bitnik.

AL e #sed it +or Gevin Bitnik. $&aotic ne#tra".

)! $&aotic ne#tra". B#t it/s a +antastic 2ook. -&at and 1e Are Anon(mo#s kind o+ rea""( .ive (o# a .ood #nderstandin. o+ w&at it/s "ike in t&e &acker space especia""( w&en it comes to dea"in. wit& t&e "aw.

'! Yea&. 0 .#ess t&e point on t&at was t&at i+ we don/t &ave internet re.#"ations t&at aren/t modern and ca#.&t #p wit& t&e times so%ca""ed. 1&at makes peop"e t&ink w&o are ar.#in. now t&ink o& we need to re.#"ate 2itcoin6 1&at makes peop"e t&ink t&at t&e(/re .onna pass "aws t&at are modern and w&at t&ee peop"e want +or 2itcoins6

)! B#t 0 don/t t&ink it/s a2o#t t&at w&en it comes to t&e re.#"ation. 0 "ook at re.#"ation as a t&in. t&at/s needed 2eca#se w&en 2#sinesses need investment, w&en 2#sinesses need a 2ank acco#nt, t&ere needs to 2e some risk miti.ation t&ere and (o# can/t invest in an #nknown #nknown. And #nti" t&ere/s some precedent set in t&e "e.a" space 2itcoin 2#sinesses are so to4ic t&at 2anks don/t even want to .ive (o# an acco#nt. -&ere was an entreprene#rs&ip...

'! 0t/s oka( (o# don/t need an acco#nt.

AL 'ometimes (o# do.

)! Ai.&t. -&ere was a 2#siness, t&ere was an entreprene#rs&ip pitc&

contest ear"ier t&is mont& and t&e woman w&o won, won 2eca#se s&e &ad 3 separate 2ank acco#nts in 3 separate p"aces t&at .ave &er an acco#nt.

AL 'o an(wa(s, we/re 3#st a2o#t o#t o+ time &ere. *#(s, t&is &as 2een .reat. )onat&an, (o# did rea" we"".

)! -&ank (o#, it was a p"eas#re.

AL -&is is .ood, t&is is .ood.

'! Yea&, t&is was +#n.

AL 'o (ea&, t&is was a +#n con+erence, so t&ere/s anot&er one. 'o 0 know (o#/ve 2een invited to speak at t&e one in Las Ie.as t&at/s &appenin. in Decem2er, (ea&6

)! Yea&, t&at/"" 2e a "ot o+ +#n.

AL Yea&, it so#nds "ike t&e(/re .oin. to &ave a "ot o+ t&e same speakers. 0/ve a"so 2een invited 2ack.

'! 0nvited 2ack6

AL -&e(/re doin. anot&er event. -&e(/re doin. anot&er one o+ t&ese events in Decem2er. Yea&, !edia Bistro, t&e same compan( t&at p#t t&is on.

)! A"t&o#.& it/"" 2e in an even +#nner conte4t. 0t/s t&e socia" .amin. and .am2"in. con+erence.

AL 1e"" m( #nderstandin. is act#a""( t&at t&ere are two .oin. on at t&e same time, t&e 2itcoin one and t&e socia" .amin. one.

)! 'o it is t&e socia" .amin. and .am2"in. con+erence and t&e( &ave m#"tip"e tracks. And &e is .oin. to add a 2itcoin track to t&at con+erence. 'o &e rea""( wants to .et t&at Eric Ior&ees on t&at pane". 'o i+ an(one &as a .am2"in. compan( and t&e( wis& to &ave a p"ace to promote it 0 wo#"d certain"( ta"k to !edia Bistro ri.&t now.

AL 'o .#(s, t&anks a.ain, once a.ain t&ank (o# +or 3oinin. me t&is was episode 3;, 0 .#ess t&at/s anot&er mi"estone we don/t rea""( ce"e2rate mi"estones 2eca#se t&e( come 2( so +ast. 0 don/t know, we &ad 2acon toda( so

)! An( time (o# &ave 2acon it/s a ce"e2ration.

AL ("a#.&s) Fair eno#.&. A"ri.&t .#(s. 1e/"" see (o# ne4t time on anot&er episode o+ Lets-a"kBitcoin.

-&anks +or "istenin. to t&is portion o+ o#r specia" Lets-a"kBitcoin con+erence covera.e. Bi. t&akns to !edia Bistro +or p#ttin. on a wonder+#" even at 0nside Bitcoins. 'ta( t#ned +or more to come over t&e co#rse o+ A#.#st. 0+ (o# &ave an( comments or 5#estions +or me direct"( (o# can emai" Adam at Lets-a"kBitcoin.com. 0+ (o# a&ve 5#estions, comments, or s#..estions directed at t&e s&ow 2road"(, p"ease visit "etsta"k2itcoin.comBreddit. 'ee (a ne4t time!