Let's Talk Bitcoin Episode 48: Cypherpunks and Globetrotting Participants: Adam B Le!

ine "ABL# $ %ost &tephanie 'urphy "SM# $ Co$host (ichard Boase "RB# $ author o) a recent article discussing the history o) the Cypherpunk mo!ement Loren *n)eld "LI# $ )rom 'Tra!el +angea'

ABL: %i, -elcome to episode 48 o) .Lets talk bitcoin. )or /ct 8th0 1234 5isit us at letstalkbitcoin com )or our daily guest blog0 all our past episodes0 and o)course tipping addresses 'y name is Adam B Le!ine0 and today 6e are learning )rom )olks 6ho are )airly ne60 but )ocused and passionate Loren is )rom 'Tra!el +angea' "666 tra!elpangea com#0 a dedicated e7plorer and operator o) one o) the )irst tra!el agencies around to accept Bitcoin %e and &tephanie talk out about ho6 those 6ith the tra!el bug can bene)it )rom cryptocurrency0 his e7periences so )ar0 and also0 monkeys, But )irst0 Bitcoin is an outgro6th o) the cypherpunk mo!ement0 but 6hat e7actly does that mean8 (ichard Boase has been 6riting about 9ust that0 and be)ore 6e headed to Georgia * caught up 6ith him about the history o) the cypherpunk mo!ement0 6hat crypto$currency means to it0 and 6hat can be learned )rom that history -e'!e got lots o) con)erence inter!ie6s coming up0 and !ideo pass pre$orders are still a!ailable 6ith an e7pected release date o) late /ct :th0 1234 ;ue to your support0 6e 6ere able to upgrade our co!erage to t6o angles and operators 6hich made )or a bit more editing time *) you'd like to be the )irst to e7perience /ct <th's cryptocurrency con)erence 6ithout actually !isiting Georgia0 !isit bitcoin!ideopass com =or e!eryone else0 all con)erence talks 6ill be a!ailable )or )ree 4< days a)ter release Thanks )or supporting our e7periment0 6e'll be o))erning more like it in the months to come >e6 though it may seem0 bitcoin is not the )irst pri!ate money 6ho's nati!e habitat is the internet =urthermore0 the patron saint o) Bitcoin is not the )irst to see the need (ather0 &atoshi stood on the shoulders o) those 6ho came be)ore0 connected the right dots0 and added his o6n inno!ation to create cryptocurrency as 6e kno6 it today But0 today is not our )ocus *'m 9oined by (ichard Bo6es "(B# an entrepreneur and marketer 6ho recently 6rote about

the history 6hat came be)ore ABL: (ichard0 thanks )or 9oining me today on Lets Talk Bitcoin,?21:22@ RB: %i0 Adam, >ice to be here Thanks )or ha!ing me ?21:24@ ABL: $&o0 tell me in a nutshell0 6hat is the cypherpunk mo!ement8?21:2A@ RB: That's a good Buestion * think it's easiest to start at the beginning0 in 3::1 6hen Tim 'ay and Eric %ughes and Cohn Gilmore started the .Cypherpunks. mailing list Alot o) people 9oined o!er the ne7t kind o) )i!e0 si7 years And they 6ere really interested in bringing strong encryption into the public domain and taking it a6ay )rom agencies like the >&A0 out o) the hands o) go!ernment $&o thats 6hen it really gets going 6ith a kind o) label But no6 * think 6ith the rise o) Bitcoin0 it's becomming something else *t's becomming almost a )ashion statement0 you kno6 *t's becomming this kind o) like0 place 6here kids can identi)y 6ith and understand0 6hich coders and hackers and business people o) all )la!ors can really come together That's my take on it0 any6ay * see it as a mo!ement0 6ith &atoshi being the kind o) mythical )igure$head o) the 6hole thing But yeah0 it has !ery deep roots And clearly alot o) e7tremely intelligent people ha!e put their 6eight into it in one 6ay or another ?24:3A@ ABL: &o 6hen 6e talk about a mailing list0 6e're talking essentially about0 and you said this 6as the late 82's8?24:11@ RB: Early :2's really0 ':1 is 6hen it got started ?24:1D@ ABL: &o 6e're talking about !ery0 !ery early email And this is essentially not so much a community as it 6as 9ust people ha!ing a group con!ersation and mailing ideas back and )orth on these topics0 right8?24:48@ RB: (ight0 e7actly ?24:42@ ABL: &o0 let me ask ho6 did you get interested in this topic8 -as this comming to it )rom the bitcoin perspecti!e and trying to )igure out the history o) 6here 6e came )rom0 or 6ere you interested in it )rom a di))erent angle8 ?24:<2@ RB: Let me say0 the )irst time * really heard o) bitcoin 6as Culy last year And *'d kind o) been thinking about digital money 'y )ather's a programmer and he had introduced me to the idea that the Euro should ha!e been a completely digital currency and * sort o) did some digging 6hen * 6as a teenager and )ound out the kind o) political implications o) ha!ing a digital currency that 6as not anonymous0 that 6as traceable And so0 6hen * 6as introduced to Bitcoin the penny dropped And * think somebody introduced me Buite simply as cryptographic0 peer$to$peer0 anonymous currency or

something like that $And it 9ust instantly took hold and * 6as like0 .That's the ne7t big thing0 *'m gonna go do6n this route Absolutely . Eou kno60 straight to it And 9ust di!ed straight into the rabbit hole And The )irst thing that kind o) grabbed me 6as 6ho is &atoshi8 &o * kind o) googled around and tried to dig a little bit and )ound that he had registered the site * think it 6as bitcoin org through Anonymousspeech 6hich 6as being run by a guy 6ho 6as in one o) the guest houses 6here * 6as li!ing in Tokyo at the time $&o * 6as kind o) like0 oh &atoshi's more or less on my doorstep /r 6hen * 6as in Tokyo he 6as more or less on my doorstep * li!ed there )or a couple o) years in 1228 *t kind o) had this )eeling that he 6as right there0 that *'d been 6ithin spitting distance 6hen * didn't really kno6 anything about it And ob!iously those 6ere !ery early days0 6hen nobody kne6 anything &o that kind o) like0 * don't kno60 something about that 9ust really spurred me on Then0 * had actually alot o) help 6ith the research )rom a !ery good security consultant 6ho kind o) really0 really dug into it * emailed a )e6 o) the main guys0 particularly Adam Black 6ho 6as e7tremely help)ul and open and )riendly and ga!e me some great leads to look at a bit deeper into 6ho the ma9or characters 6ere &o it sort o) came together organically ?2<:<1@ ABL: &o (ichard0 you mentioned strong cryptography as being sort o) a cornerstone o) 6hat the cypherpunks 6ere trying to do -hy is that something that 6as important to them at that point in time8 Because * don't really think there 6as the threat o) the >&A breaking all communications per!asi!ely * mean ?2D:2:@ RB: -ell * think early on0 * mean in the A2's (i!est0 &hamir0 and Alderman they came out 6ith this algorithm 6hich 6as kno6n as (&A &te!en Le!y describes this 6hole story in much detail in his book Crypto And these guys and 'artin %ellman and ;i))ie -hit)ield particulary ;i))ie -hit)ield had this real0 almost paranoid mistrust o) speci)ically the >&A and speci)ically go!ernment agencies 6ho 6ere insisting that strong cryptography 6as not something )or the masses That it 6as a threat to >ational security And particularly 6hen 'arty %ellman and -hit)ield ;i))ie came up 6ith the key e7change0 the >&A 6as terri)ied and kind o) put a clamp on the 6hole thing Fey e7changes 6ere 9ust a ne6 thing in cryptography0 right8 +ublic$pri!ate key e7changes Be)ore that you only had symmetrical encryption 6here you both had to ha!e the same pass6ords to access an encrypted message -hereas 6ith the ;i))ie$%ellman system0 you created your public key and your pri!ate key And you published your public key and then you could s6ap your public keys and you could send your encrypted messages to 6ho you had the public key o) And so0 the >&A kind o) )reaked out o!er this because it had been 6orked out in deepest darkest secret and * think in the bo6els o) GC%G in the D2's And the GC%G hadn't )igured out ho6 to use it And they ob!iously hadn't published it ?2A:4D@

ABL: * kno6 >&A0 but 6hat is GC%G8?2A:48@ RB: GC%G is the British !ersion o) the >&A * think it stands )or General Central Communications %eadBuarters or something like that But it's the British !ersion o) the >&A ?8 22@ $&o yeah0 and there 6as this kind o) moment 6here the &tates certainly classed strong encryption algorithms as 6eapons &o you couldn't e7port the strong encryption algorithms in your so)t6are And * think Lotus had something called notes that 6as the >&A basically clamped do6n on and said oh you can only ha!e 43$bit encryption on )oreign e7port !ersion o) notes and things like that ?28:1A@ ABL: &o do you think that the cypherpunk mo!ement 6as a reaction to that or 6as it already in process 6hen this started becomming an issue8?28:44@ RB: -hat's interesting is these guys really sa6 it comming They really sa6 the 6hole0 people like Assange you kno60 really early on thinking all o) these communications are gonna get sucked up as they pass )rom continent to continent by the go!ernments And nothing is gonna be pri!ate0 it's all 9ust public stu)) &o it's not e!en a Buestion o) i) they do it0 it's basically 6hen *t's like all o) this communication is public And there)ore0 strong cryptography should be in the public domain also +eople ha!e a right to pri!acy And they really sa6 that comming 32$12 years ahead ?2::34@ ABL: &o0 seeing things comming early isn't al6ays that re6arding o) an e7perience0 and * kno6 that there ha!e been other attempts at things like cryptocurrencies that 6ere not e7actly cryptocurrencies be)ore this Those arose )rom the cypherpunk mo!ement as 6ell0 right8?2::1A@ RB: * think 6hat maybe di))erntiates cypherpunk as a mo!ement )rom those other early e7periments or particularly systems0 like the Liberty (eser!e0 are the philosophy and the politics behind it $&o in my mind atleast0 as * say cypherpunk is by nature0 its goal is to o!erturn the status BuoH by nature it's disrupti!e But also0 * think there is this kind o) strong philosophical0 perhaps e!en moral backbone to it -hich * ha!e to say0 things like Liberty (eser!e0 *'m not so sure that they're backed up in the same 6ay or e!en ;a!id Chaum 6ho 6as a brilliant cryptographer and the creator o) ;igiCash %e had this sort o) pri!atiIation pro)it moti!e going on behind ;igiCash0 6hich * think ultimately sank it $ and 6hat's key about Bitcoin0 and the ne6 technology0 is the )act that it's so shared *t's so open source that anybody can get in!ol!ed0 and that's 6hy 6e ha!e alcolytes and e!angelists 6ho are 9ust craIy about itH you kno60 almost religious in there )er!or $$because it has this potential to 9ust open up the economic stage and allo6 people in And it's not e7clusi!e in the 6ay ;igiCash 6as &o * kno6 that you're pretty much a belie!er too and most people listening to the sho6 6ill be as 6ell But * think that's the main

di))erentiation bet6een Bitcoin and its public ledger and its open source nature0 and the pre!ious attempts ?33:21@ ABL: &o0 6hat do you think0 you kno6 )or people lacking in understanding o) 6here 6e'!e come )rom0 6hat parts about the cypherpunk mo!ement or speci)ic indi!iduals 6ithin it0 you metioned AssangeH * assume you mean Culian Assange %e has an interesting Buote .Transparency )or the po6er)ul and pri!acy )or the 6eak. $and * think that that's a really interesting approach0 because 6e li!e in a 6orld that's )ull o) one$siIe$)its$all solutions And generally speaking it's kind o) 6hy 6e ha!e this problem that 6e do no60 because i) there are small o) bad actors0 then e!eryone is treated as i) they might be a bad actor 6hich makes things in general harder )or e!erybody &o 6e don't ha!e some things that 6e 6ould e7cept )or this sort o) )ear -hat parts about the cypherpunk mo!ement or indi!iduals 6ithin it do you think is important )or people to understand 6ho aren't )amiliar 6ith this or ha!e ne!er heard o) it be)ore8?33:<3@ RB: * suppose the main thing is this idea that i) you'!e got nothing to hide0 you'!e got nothing to lose * mean that is the oldest argument in the book right8 And i) you'!e e!er read like0 Fa)ka you kno6 it 9ust doesn't 6ork like that That i) you'!e got bad actors in go!ernment you can be as good as anybody and they'll still persecute you &o0 this idea that you'!e got nothing to hide you'!e got nothing to lose it is true up to a point0 but most people are suspicious o) Bitcoin because it protects your pri!acy or in some 6ays it protects your pri!acy Eou kno60 people 6ho don't kno6 about cypherpunk are Buite likely to kind o) say oh 6ell these guys are 9ust disrupti!e and you kno60 they 6ant Anarchy and they 6ant terrorists to be able to communicante and you kno6 da da da da da But * think really that's not the case * think the case is 6e need to )ind alternati!es to this sur!eillance state0 to the kind o) control that these unkno6n )orces 6ield o!er us Like * mean0 6e're creati!e people and * think 6e ha!e the right to be creati!e And so0 that's kind o) the main thing that needs to come out o) this This idea that pri!acy is a pri!elage 6hen in )act0 you kno60 really it's a right Eou and * should be able to communicate0 you kno60 really 6hate!er 6e like 6ithout being spied on That's the key message ?34:3A@ ABL: *n our society0 de)initely seems like there are people 6ho belie!e that but0 as you mentioned0 you kno60 it's really more about the people in go!ernment and 6hat they belie!e /ne o) the not$so$nice terms that are used to sometimes describe the cypherpunks is cryptoanarchists And *'m 6ondering 6hat you think o) that term as it relates to this group ?34:4A@ RB: -ell * think it's kind o) )air0 but on the other hand *'m gonna hop back to this old thing o) the =ounding =athers being thought o) as terrorists at the time o) the establishment o) the Jnited &tates * mean * think you kno60

you'!e got this group o) people 6ho0 you kno60 actually Buite a large group o) people0 6ho are )ounding )athers o) the *nternet And the same goes )or the cypherpunks * mean you kno60 they're as you say in your introduction0 &atoshi is standing on the shoulders o) giants * mean people 6ho really had )ar$reaching ideas and 6ho0 in some senses0 * think are anarchists ?34:3<@ ABL: Let's talk about that term0 Anarchists Because0 Anarchists is one o) those 6ords that in modern parlance has sort o) di))erent associations than * think that people 6ho proudly re)er0 there are some people 6ho proudly re)er to themsel!es as .cryptoanarchists. don't really )eel like their interpretation o) that 6ord is that there's someone going around lobbing digital bombs as might be the assumption based on ho6 they're treated in the media sometimes -hat de)ines a cryptoanarchist in this conte7t8?34:44@ RB: * couldn't tell you 6hether the cypherpunks are cryptoanarchists0 6hether they 6ant to lob digital bombs0 or anything like that As they say * guess each member has their o6n philosphy * also think that gentleness and compassion and mind)ulness is the 6ay )or6ard in creating a global culture &o 6e are on the !erge o) ha!ing this incredibly po6er)ul technology And *'!e heard alot o) adopters o) Bitcoin talk about0 you kno60 it's not cool to be a billionaire anymore >o6 it's cool to be a trillionaire kind o) thing And that maybe so All 6e really need to do is kind o) )igure out 6ays that 6e can make a better 6orld0 because 6e'!e got this incredible mechanism )or energy e7change 6ith !ery0 !ery lo6 transaction )ees $ so 6e can send great amounts o) energy As 5italik Buterin says in his recent article in 'Bitcoin 'agaIine' the main thing to do is )igure out 6ays o) distributing to us0 during distributed computing And not necessarily in the 6ay o) &ET* =oldingKhome0 but in the 6ay0 in Bitcoin's o6n particular 6ay0 it 6ill gi!e rise to ne6 social architectures and hope)ully ne6 medical ad!ances and things like that * think 6e really ha!e to think care)ully about ho6 6e 6ant to use this po6er 0 you kno6 *t's the old &piderman thing o) 6ith great po6er comes great responsibility -e need to embrace that That's my t6o cents0 any6ay And * 6ould actually ha!ing had some connection 6ith 6hat * 6ould term .real cryptoanarchists.0 and ha!ing seen the kind o) ra6 disregard )or la6 or ra6 desire to tear do6n the old institutions * kind o)0 you kno60 *'m more moderate than that Eou kno6 *'m happy to see banks disintermediated to a certain e7tent and credit card companies0 to take some o) the po6er a6ay )rom them and do6nsiIe them But like0 *'m not personally in )a!or o) 9ust tearing do6n the old society you kno60 6illy nilly 6ithout care * think 6e do need to really apply oursel!es to ho6 to recreate the economy and ho6 to get people's standards o) li!ing up and look at0 * don't kno60 de!eloping countries and see ho6 6e can apply Bitcoin there &o there's so much 6ork to be done0 actually * think cryptoanarchy is a little bit o) a distraction0 you kno6 ?3A:3D@

ABL: /kay0 * can see that &o0 is it an inherent dislike o) rules8 /r is it a dislike o) the current system that you think leads people 6ho are thinking like you 6ere 9ust describing to not be interested in the current system8 *s it any system8 *s 9ust that there is a system thats the problem8 /r is it 9ust that they don't like the current system so they don't respect it8?3A:48@ RB: Eou kno60 * don't kno6 * think there's probably a di))erence bet6een punks and anarachists in the sense that punks are kind o) 9ust a bit naughty and anarchists are Buite serious0 you kno60 about tearing do6n the system >o60 there may be a spectrum right8 And sometimes they might a little bit too ro6dy0 too serious * 6ould'nt 6ant to 9udge either 6ay Eou kno6 i) people ha!e really0 really been gi!en a hard time by the system and they need to take their anger out on the system and they 6ant to destroy it and they 6ant to use Bitcoin to do it0 6ell you kno60 that's 9ust a )act o) li)e That's gonna be a reality0 right8 * think the problem 6ith the system at the moment really0 and * don't 6ant to be too general0 but like there's alot o) )riction in the global economic system right8 And there's a huge imbalance &o 6e really need to )ocus on taking the )riction out o) the legacy system and using Bitcoin almost as a lubricant0 kind o) digital snake oil i) you like0 but 9ust a lubricant to get the economy going again And also to redistribute so that people can 6ork at home in a 6ay that makes sense )or them and so that you can outsource easily digital tasks to people the otherside o) the 6orld or you can get paid )or your 6ork in an increasingly multinational0 multilingual en!irnoment 6ithout too much hassle and 6ithout gi!ing too much money to the credit card companies or the banks ?3::21@ ABL: (ichard0 is there anything that * ha!en't asked about that you'd like to go o!er8?3::2D@ RB: Alot o) the technical stu)) in my article is )ascinating And it runs !ery deep0 and * kind )eel like *'!e only 9ust got the outline o) ho6 deep it really goes /ne o) the most interesting things )or me is suppose this thing that &atoshi said be)ore he disappeared 6hich 6as .Let's not )ocus too much on the mysterious creator thing. and * think that's right in a sense *'m also !ery interested in the idea that Bitcoin is kind o) intelligence all o) its o6n A sort o) disembodied corporation i) you'd like * kno6 that doesn't actually make sense but0 a disembodied intelligence maybe *n terms o) the technical stu))0 that's really 6here it's at0 really looking at ho6 it can be applied Another thing * 6ould 9ust say is i) you're really interested in digital property rights read >ick &Iabo's stu)) because he is )antastic * mean he is 9ust so interesting and so deep and so academic And as * say he 6as sort o) in the habbit o) going through 6hat technology there 6as and kind o) conte7tualiIing it in historical terms And so * think he's a great introduction to the sub9ect And hope)ully also kind o) a bit o) a !isionary about 6here it should go or 6here the technology is going but also * mean there ha!e been

so many great technical inno!ations0 real hardcore coders going into it0 6here do you start8?12:4<@ ABL: -ell0 the place to start in this case is letstalkbitcoin comLpunk i) you 6ant to be directed to (ichard's article, (ichard0 thanks )or 9oining us to talk about the cypherpunk mo!ement -e look )or6ard to ha!ing you back on the sho6 soon ?31:48@ RB: Thanks !ery much0 Adam, Thanks )or ha!ing me ?12:<3@

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SM: *'m here talking 6ith Loren *n)eld Loren is )rom 'Tra!el +angea' $ and Loren0 thank you )or being on Let's Talk Bitcoin today,?11:24@ LI: &ure0 thanks )or ha!ing me,?11:2<@ SM: Eeah0 so 'Tra!el +angea' is a tra!el agency but it's a little bit di))erent than other tra!el agencies because you'll accept bitcoin0 is that right8?11:3<@ LI: That is true0 yeah ?11:3D@ SM: &o0 * 6ant to kno6 about 6hat that's like0 but )irst o) all0 ho6 did you )ind out about Bitcoin and ho6 did you get to the point 6here 'Tra!el +angea' 6as 6orking 6ith Bitcoin8?11:18@ LI: -ell0 6e run in )airly tech sa!!y circles and so 6e had heard Bitcoin being tossed around since it's inception 'y partner at the agency had talked to people right as Bitcoin 6as getting going $and 6e had kind o) talked about it as a concept and then started hearing )rom more and more people that

thought it'd be pretty interesting i) they could book tra!el using all this Bitcoin that they had earned or sa!ed up &o 6e spent a 6hile researching and deciding and 6e chose to gi!e it a go,?11:<8@ SM: Eeah0 so are most o) your clients indi!iduals or are they companies that are doing corporate kinds o) tra!el8?14:2<@ LI: -e don't do that much corporate -e do indi!iduals0 groups0 6e do a bit o) e!erything +robably our Bitcoin clients are mostly indi!iduals and indi!idual people 6ithin groups that are booking and tra!elling ?14:3:@ SM: /k &o that's interesting &o0 there aren't too many companies yet that are doing alot o) their e7penses in Bitcoin to the point 6here they're paying )or tra!el 6ith Bitcoin ?14:18@ LI: >ot yet0 although that 6ould be a really cool de!elopmentH a nice 6ay to 6ork 6ith companies doing direct Bitcoin trans)ers ?14:1A@ SM: Eeah0 * imagine -e'!e heard )rom alot o) companies that they do ha!e some trouble0 because like the so)t6are isn't really there yet )or doing serious kinds o) accounting 6ith Bitcoin0 so they do ha!e some issues 6ith that * think $ but 6hat is your typical client like8 ;o you ha!e a stereotypical kind o) client8 *s it somebody 6ho 6orks )or themsel!es and 9ets around the 6orld8 A Bitcoin millionaire8 Tell me about that, ?laughs@?14:21@ LI: *t is al6ays )un 6orking 6ith ?laughs@ someone 6ho's got a ton o) money or Bitcoin to go do 6hate!er they 6ant0 because you can book the best ad!entures But * think our clients are pretty 6ell !aried0 but like * said 6e ha!e been around the kind o) tech sa!!y0 young0 internet or techniclogically sound people 6ho are doing modern 6ork and cutting$edge stu)) and the sort o) people 6ho 6ere turned on to Bitcoin early on and 6ere able to take ad!antage o) it &o0 usually )airly young0 ad!enturous sort o) tra!ellers doing all sorts o) interesting trips $ and 6e specialiIe in unusual0 odd0 or comple7 itineraries &o0 it's al6ays )un to 6ork 6ith these people that ha!e a bit o) coin and 6ant to use it to see the 6orld,?14:<1@ SM: /kay0 so are people mostly doing this )or personal trips8 $/r is it business trips or maybe mi7ed8?14:<8@ LI: 'ostly personal tra!el that 6e'!e done so )ar0 any6ay * could de)initely imagine people mo!ing o!er to business tra!el this 6ay0 though ?1<:2D@ SM: -hen you make the arrangements )irst o) all0 tell me a little bit about 6hat a tra!el agent does ?1<:31@ LI: ?laughs@ -ell0 *t's kind o) )unny 'cause * ha!e that con!ersation alot 6ith people saying '-ell can't 6e 9ust book online8. *t's true that not as many

people need to come to you )or a Buick easy )light to some6here0 but 6hat a tra!el agent does is really go abo!e and beyond that0 and help you )igure out and shape a !acation to create the per)ect e7perience &o0 6hen you're saying .hmm *'d kinda like to go to Asia,. rather than 9ust go online and see 6hat you can )ind and book it0 you can talk to me *'!e been to Asia many0 many times and booked hundreds o) people $and kno6 the ins and outs and * can sit 6ith you and )igure out or talk 6ith you online like 6e're doing no60 and )igure out e7actly 6hat it is that you're interested ;o you 6ant to see temples or do you 6anna see monkeys or do you 6anna see the best night clubs in Thailand or something8?1D:2<@ SM: * 6anna see monkeys0 Loren, ?laughs@?1D:2A@ LI: Eou'!e come to the right place, * actually am in)amous )or my lo!e o) monkeys0 and my best party trick is that * can say monkey in o!er <2 languages But * ha!e been attacked by monkeys in a )e6 countries and en9oyed it throughly0 actually,?1D:13@ SM: ?laughs@ /kay so0 you're more like a consultant )or tra!el ?1D:1<@ LI: Eeah0 so essentially not 9ust get you on a plane )orm A to B0 but help you )igure out 6hat you 6ant to do0 6hat 6orks )or you0 and kind o) get you inspired instead o) 9ust get on a plane and go take some pictures o) some )amous buildings or something $$ to really get into 6hat you 6ould en9oy most &ay0 go out to the monkey )orrests in Bali then0 )or e7ample $or my )a!orite is the Batu ca!es in 'alaysia 6here you climb up a bunch o) steps 6hile you 6atch monkeys running up and do6n them in A seconds 6hile it takes you hal) an hour to climb up all these steps, But you kno60 to )ind the e7perience that 6ill make your trip the best trip )or you ?1A:2<@ SM: (ight0 okay0 that makes sense And *'!e heard be)or that being a tra!el agent can be a really re6arding career0 it's pretty )le7ible0 you can kind o) do it )rom any6here %o6 did you get into the business8?1A:12@ LI: *t is really re6arding0 it's also appeared on some lists o) the most stress)ul 9obs * al6ays e7plain that i) you're a grocery bagger and you accidentally drop someone's milk it's not too big a deal $but i) you're a tra!el agent and you get someone on the 6rong )light or someone misses that )light0 you get the panicked phone calls and people crying and trying to )igure out 6hat to do .* missed my )light i'm stranded0 help,. &o it can be stress)ull0 but it's also really re6ardingH especially to do the complicated trips 6here it's someone's pipe dream They came to you and said0 .*'!e al6ays dreamed o) seeing Europe0 but * 9ust don't kno6 ho6 to do it . $and by the time you )inish0 they're going out and seeing e!erything they'!e al6ays dreamed o) And that )eels pretty cool and * got into it e7actly )or that reason * lo!e tra!el0 *'!e tra!lled all my li)e $and * realiIed people 6ere asking me )or ad!ice 6hen

they took trips &o * started out 6orking at a uni!ersity at a tra!el agency0 9ust because 6hen * 6as at uni!ersity * studied abroad and it absolutely changed ho6 * looked at the 6orld0 ho6 * looked at mysel) and my place in it *t really pro)oundly a))ected me0 and * really 6anted to help young people do thatH to )eel the same 6ay and to gro6 in that 6ay *t's kind o) maturing accelerated To learn so much about yoursel) 6hen all o) your surroundings are taken out and your put into a totally )oreign situation And so0 that's ho6 * got into it and did it )or years doing that and mo!ed on and started my o6n to become more )le7ible0 9ust like you 6ere saying Technically0 * could be any6here in the 6orld and still help you 6ith your tra!el0 6hich is pretty cool, ?18:<8@ SM: Eeah0 absolutely, And since this is your business0 you can decide 'okay0 6e 6ould like to take Bitcoin ' $and so ho6 did 6hen did you start taking Bitcoin8 =irst o) all0 * 6ant to hear 6hen ?1::31@ LI: =airly recently *t's been 6ithin the past )e6 months *t 6as a long debate )or a )e6 months be)ore that ?1::13@ SM: -ho 6ere you debating 6ith8?1::14@ LI: -ell it 6as me and my partner 6ho handles the business side * get to do the )un stu)) and send people around the 6orld and *'!e got someone to handle the business paper6ork stu)) that is not nearly as )un as sending people on ad!entures The t6o o) us make the main decisions0 and 6e 6ere 9ust really tring to learn as much as 6e could about Bitcoin and not di!e in blind $and 6e had alot o) concerns about the !olitility and things like that And ob!iously a ne6 currency 6ith such a )airly unregulated concept seemed pretty scary And so0 it took us a 6hile to decide to take the leap and then actually start initiating and take some payments and learn ho6 it all 6orked =ortunately 6e had alot o) !ery )riendly tra!ellers that 6ere able to go easy on us )or our )irst Bitcoin e7periences ?42:34@ SM: (ight0 so about 6hat 6as the time )rame )or that8?42:3D@ LI: +robably about three months ago or so is 6hen 6e did the )irst payment ?42:12@ SM: /h okay0 so )airly recently ?42:11@ LI: Eeah -e're ne6bies to it still andso 6e're not super$pros but it's been really a good e7perience so )ar ?42:42@ SM: &o0 in the last three months about ho6 many clients ha!e you had 6ho 6anted to use Bitcoin to do their tra!el arrangements8?42:4D@ LI: *t's not the ma9ority o) our business yet -e're actually 9ust starting to

market to the idea o) looking )or clients $speci)ically bitcoin clients &o 6e'!e had probably a hal) doIen or so0 not a huge amount $but 6e de)inately see the potential *'!e had many con!erstaions 6ith people 6ho 6hen they )ound out 6e're accepting Bitcoin they got e7cited and started thinking about )uture plans ?43:22@ SM: * mean in three months0 i) you ha!e hal) a doIen clients that's one e!ery couple 6eeks so that's not too bad ?43:2D@ LI: Eeah0 and 6e hope to e7pand out and it's kind o) a uniBue 6ay And the de!elopment o) Bitcoin and the people 6ho got in early on managed to kind o) get a decent stash0 )or some o) them atleast0 o) some coinH it seems like its a neat idea to take this digital !irtual currency and spend it on something that's more 6hat people dream on rather than say0 paying your rent or doing something more practical 6ith it $to take it and ha!e some )un 6ith this currency,?43:42@

Announcement: Eou're listening to Let's talk Bitcoin, The premiere audiocast pro!iding ne6s and insights that co!er the rapidly e!ol!ing 6orld o) digital money /ur t6ice 6eekly sho6 includes analysis o) late$breaking ne6s0 updates on key technical business and regulatory issues0 and in$depth inter!ie6s 6ith key people dri!ing the ne6 digital economy 'Let's Talk Bitcoin,' o))ers sponsors an attracti!e 6ay to reach a targeted and sa!!y audience =or more in)ormation0 email sponsorsKletstalkbitcoin com SM: /)course e!eryone's )ree to spend their money and their bitcoins ho6e!er they think is best0 but * think tra!el could be totally practical * mean i) it changes your li)e ?41:3:@ LI: ?laughs@ That's not to say that tra!el is impractical0 but * used to 9oke that back in the day * 6ould spend my rent money on plane tickets so o)ten, ?41:1A@ SM: -ell you 6ould'nt ha!e to pay your rent i) you 6erent li!ing there )or that month0 right8 ?laughs@?41:41@ LI: Eeah, -ell *'!e sat outside o) many airports staring be)ore my )light home thinking .no6 6hat 6ould happen i) * 9ust didn't *) * 9ust kept tra!elling8. * )ound that the practical stu)) * al6ays )ind some 6ay to pay )or0 so * made sure to buy my plane tickets0 to book my dreams0 so that * couldn't talk mysel) out o) it $and *'!e ne!er regretted a single trip that *'!e done *'!e been all o!er the 6orld0 and *'!e helped tons o) people do it and *'d be hard pressed to come up 6ith e7amples o) people going0 .6ell0 you kno60 * 6oulda much rather had that N30222 back then ha!e gone and had this e7perience . *t 9ust

doesn't happen *t's a really enriching thing to do ?44:33@ SM: * 6ould'!e rather paid my ta7es 6ith that N30222, >o0 6ait a minute ?laughs@?44:3D@ LI: >ot that people shouldn't be )inancially responsible0 but i) there's any6ay to sBueeIe out a little bit o) money to go play0 * think tra!elling is 6ay better thing to in!est in than )ancy clothes or ne6 rims )or your car or something like that ?44:44@ SM: (ight0 yeah &o0 *'m curious about ho6 the business side 6orks )or you at your business ;o you accept Bitcoin )rom your clients and then 6hat do you do hold on to the Bitcoin and then make the arrangements in dollars8 ;o you immediately change the Bitcoin into dollars0 and then use that )or the business e7penses8 ;o you do some kind o) split bet6een those t6o8?44:<8@ LI: Being kind o) ne6 and 9ust getting going0 there's de)initely not too many !endors0 hotels0 airlines0 anything around the 6orld that's accepting bitcoin &o0 6e generally ha!e to at some point con!ert it into dollars in order to pay o)) the !endors )or th bookings 6e do &o )ar 6e'!e been accepting in Bitcoin and con!erting it )airly Buickly into dollars and mo!ing it into accounts to pay o)) !endors Although0 6e ha!e talked about in the )uture as 6e gro6 the business and especially i) 6e are ending up doing more and more Bitcoin transactions0 then creating kind o) a bu))er 6here 6e can sit on Bitcoin )or a 6hile and 6atch the market and see ho6 it goes $and possibly e!en increase our earnings that 6ay 6hich 6ould be 9ust an e7tra bonus perk on top o) the business ?44:<2@ SM: (ight0 yeah And do you ad!ise people about0 *'m picturing i) someone's going on a trip to Berlin0 lets say0 and they kno6 that there's bars and restaurants0 and maybe e!en places to stay0 that accept Bitcoin in the neighborhood 6here they're going0 potentially that could sa!e them alot on )oreign credit card )ees0 and tra!eller's checks0 and all that crap that people usually ha!e to do 6hen they go to another countryH ha!e you had anybody 6ho's asked you about that8 %as Bitcoin been able to sol!e some o) those problems8?4<:14@ LI: >ot yet0 but that's actually 6here * do see a ma9or potential Because 9ust as a merchant0 as someone selling tra!el to you0 then there's )ees associated 6ith that -e're al6ays looking at 6ays to be putting the money to6ards trips0 and not to6ards paying o)) 5isa or 'astercard or somebody their cut o) the charge &o0 the )act that Bitcoin does ha!e opportunities to do it at !ery lo6 percentage o) )ees and it's an easy 6ay to mo!e money around 6ithout losing alot o) it to )ees0 * think that there's really good potential there $and * 6ould like to look into places0 especailly hotels and other tra!el related acti!ities that do deal in Bitcoin and * 6ould lo!e to partner$up 6ith people

and kind o) ha!e an allianceH maybe start building the reputation and acceptance0 in the tra!el industry0 o) Bitcoin ?4D:14@ SM: (ight The thing that * immediately think o) is 'Airbnb'0 and you're probably )amilliar 6ith 'Airbnb'0 but 9ust )or our listners 6ho may not be0 it's a ser!ice that allo6s people to hook up it allo6s people 6ho maybe 6ant to rent out a house or a place to stay on a short$term basis0 or maybe they're still li!ing there and they 6ant to rent out a room or something *t hooks them up 6ith people 6ho 6ant to rent that place to stay &o0 it really e7pands the possibilities people can )ind places to stay that maybe signi)icantly cheaper than local hotels and stu)) like that $and 'Airbnb' as * understand0 it 6as actually )ounded by Brian Armstrong 6ho is no6 at 'Coinbase' * think that there could be a real partnership potentialyl bet6een 'Airbnb' and accepting Bitcoin The potential is there )or people to basically buy a hotel or a place to stay 6ith Bitcoin any6here in the 6orld ?4A:14@ LI: Eeah0 * think that it's an emerging technology 9ust like a )e6 years ago the concept o) booking all your tra!el through the internet or e!en using the internet as you tra!el 6as a craIy idea >o60 you couldn't imagine not doing it * keep < di))erent apps on my phone that as * tra!el0 6hene!er * get -i=i update local currencies0 and check in itineraries0 and look at the plans There's al6ays the cur!e o) 6aiting )or humans to 6ise up to the emerging technologies0 basically * 6ish * 6as a big enough company to be the company that leads that charge0 but * think that alot o) little places indi!idual hotels0 small agencies like me0 6ill be mo!ing that 6ay and accepting Bitcoin and then it 6ill gain momentum $ and then somebody big like 'Airbnb'0 or someoneH a large hotel chain0 or a tour company0 or an airline0 6ill decide to hop on the not as cutting$edge as it 6as a )e6 years ago0 but still pretty hot technolgy $and then it 6ill mo!e out and it 6ill become this radical ne6 thing )or the mainstream that hope)ully those o) us in the kno6 ha!e been using )or a 6hile and the rest o) the 6orld is disco!ering that there's this other 6ay that you can pay )or things uni!ersally and not deal 6ith 6ith like you 6ere saying0 )oreign transaction )ees can be real surprise killers )or people 6hen they get back )rom their trip and check their credit card statments ?48:<1@ SM: Actually0 let's talk about that )or a minute Let's do a hypothetical scenario here and say * li!e in >e6 %ampshire0 and * 6ant to go to China and see the monkeys0 let's say $and *'m gonna go )or t6o 6eeks and *'m going to use my credit card to pay )or as much as * can0 but maybe *'ll get some o) the local currency and change some money 6hile *'m there %o6 much do you think * could e7pect maybe to spend in transaction )ees8 -hat percentage o) my total cost )rom the trip might be in those )oreign transaction )ees0 and changing money0 and all that kind o) stu))H the costs basically that Bitcoin could eliminate ?4::4D@

LI: Essentially there's di))erent 6ays to access your money and spend your money and it's actually something that * point out to my tra!ellers )airly )reBuently0 is to make sure you talk to your bank and try to minimiIe the amount that you pay0 because some banks charge )or AT' 6ithdra6als0 some charge )or using it as a credit card0 some charge )or both &ome charge )lat rates0 some charge percentages $and then o)course0 i) you 9ust bring a 6ad o) cash )irst o) all * ne!er ad!ise that because 6alking around 6ith a 6ad o) cash does not make you )eel !ery com)ortable, But on top o) that you're gonna pay transaction )ees or commssions and then i) not that0 then they gi!e you a 6orse e7change rate so you're not getting ;ollar to Euan0 in your e7ample There's usually most cards charge around 4M e7tra )or )ees0 some credit cards as high as 32M *'!e had emergencies 6here *'!e lost a card and had to use a credit card and got home to a 32M )ee on e!ery charge * made &o0 it can really add up &ay you go stay )or t6o 6eeks in a N322 a night hotel and then try to put it all on a card at the end and get caught 6ith that 32M )ee That's N342 )or that e7ample Eeah0 as you go through and you're doing day tours0 and your !isiting attractions and eating and buying sou!enirs0 6e spend our money e!ery6here as 6e tra!el0 as 6e do in daily li)e Abroad you can see alot o) )ees add up0 and * think that i) 6e are at a point 6here you could use Bitcoin more o)ten you 6ould de)initely be sha!ing those )ees 6ay do6n ?43:38@ SM: ;o you help people 6ith !isa issues too8 Are you doing that8?43:14@ LI: Generally it's a bad idea to make promises as a !isa e7pert0 as a tra!el agent * do help adi!ise0 but * al6ays ad!ise double$checking 6ith the go!ernment Tra!el state go! is the best place to )ind out *'!e had alot o) e7perience 6ith !isas all o!er the 6orld0 so * can usually ans6er general Buestions0 but * do al6ays ad!ise people to double check0 9ust to make sure Those la6s change *'!e been in situations 6here the month be)ore * 6as going to a country they did not reBuire a !isa in ad!ance0 and at the point that * 6as going they did reBuire it and * had to scramble and get mysel) a !isa last minute $and it 6asn't )un * can help0 but * can't guaruntee0 so * al6ays re)er people to the authorities on that as 6ell ?41:33@ SM: *'m trying to picture i) there's any 6ay that Bitcoin could help 6ith that0 but *'m kind o) at a loss?41:38@ LI: That 6ould be challenging0 because that 6ould be going directly through the go!ernments o) the 6orld ?41:14@ SM: They're going to be the last to embrace inno!ation ?41:1A@ LI: The renegade on that 6e're saying .6e don't need the go!ernment to regulate our currencies0 6e'll 9ust do it oursel!es,.0 so it might be hard to go back to the go!ernment and say .>o6 that 6e'!e done it oursel!es0 ho6

about you guys 6ork 6ith us on that. Eeah might be a little challenge to that0 but !isa costs are usually a pretty small percentage o) your total tra!el costs ?41:4A@ SM: Gotcha0 unless your talking about 5isa the credit card company ?41:13@ LI: Eeah0 the credit card company0 that could be a pretty large portion o) it ?41:<D@ SM: /kay0 Loren0 is there anything else you 6ant to add8 * mean this has been really interesting )or me0 but maybe one last Buestion -hen do you see maybe airlines or hotels comming online 6ith Bitcoin8 -hat 6ould you predict might be the time )rame )or that8?44:34@ LI: *'d put hotels be)ore airlines Airlines are not the Buickest to adopt trends and they're also behemoth things that ha!e their o6n set o) magical logic to them ?44:1<@ SM: The 6ord dinosaur came to mind )or me ?laughs@?44:18@ LI: Eeah0 really *'!e had to e7plain to people that you can't really predict sometimes0 a good e7ample is *'m in &acramento right no6 $and a )light )rom &acramento to say0 >e6 Eork !ia Atlanta might be N422 But0 i) * 9ust 6anted to )ly that to Atlanta it might be N:22 They ha!e their o6n sort o) logic and reasoning and they do alot o) algorithms and calculations to try )ind out 6hat's the best But they are kind o) a dinosaury thing Jntil 6e )igure out a 6ay to )lap our o6n arms and get oursel!es there0 though0 they're 6hat 6e'!e got * think that 6hat 6ill happen is some o) the lo6$cost carriers0 some o) the ne6 inno!ators0 people like maybe in Europe say0 easy9et or (yanair0 those sort o) people that are doing !ery lo6$cost )lights0 they're the ones that are eeking their 6ay into an established business and pushing the limits * 6ould lo!e to see AirAsia personally in Asia they're one o) the best0 probably the best lo6$cost airline in the 6orld Those are the people they basically they make their money by )inding 6ays to lo6er their e7penses They're the ones that introduced "(yanair is in)amous )or their nickel and diming policies0# but they're the ones that introduced things like kiosks instead o) agents at airports because then you pay less people and cut do6n your costs -ebsites instead o) call centers &o doing Bitcoin transactions rather than paying 5isa or 'astercard those )ees is another logical 6ay 6here they can trim do6n They land at alternate airports that charge lo6er ta7es They're the ones that are looking )or 6ays to keep the costs do6n because their bread and butter is undercutting the ma9or airlines0 so * think they're going to be the ones that 6ill e!entually adopt * 6ould think it's probably not in the ne7t year or t6o0 but hope)ully soon therea)ter *n the hotel 6orld0 * think that it 6ill be indi!idual hotels popping

up e!ery6here accepting and then some o) the smaller chains )ollo6ing suit0 and then the big guys 6aking up and saying0 ./h hey look theres all this . &ay there's about 3122 hotels in London0 not all o) them are chains0 and 6hen the big chains look around and realiIe that there's <22 hotels in to6n that are no6 accepting Bitcoin0 then they'll realiIe that maybe they need to get on board to stay competeti!e as 6ell ?4<:<1@ SM: Eeah0 that's so interesting *t sounds like there's really an opportunity )or some inno!ation in these industries that are not "especailly the airline industry# traditionally associated 6ith being !ery inno!ati!eH at least in the last )e6 decades ?4D:2D@ LI: * think that its e!ol!ed <2 years ago companies could do 6ell by 9ust plodding along and being really good at 6hat they do and 6orking hard >o60 inno!ation is the key to e!erything E!ery company that's doing really 6ell no6 is because they came up 6ith a really uniBue idea0 or a really uniBue design Like * said0 until 6e can )lap our 6ings and )ly oursel!es0 then 6e're going to need the airlines0 but * think that 6e 6ould be dra6n as people and as tra!ellers to the ones that are inno!ating $ and * think that Bitcoin is a really solid inno!ation )or them to lean to6ards ?4D:44@ SM: Eeah0 okay0 and one last Buestion *) you had a client that 6anted to take a Bitcoin !acation0 and not 9ust to pay )or it in Bitcoin but they 6anted to go and see the places in the 6orld 6here there are Bitcoin intentional communities0 and they can buy things 6ith BitcoinH 6here 6oud you recommend that they go8?4A:24@ LI: That is a )antastic Buestion that * 6ish * had a really good ans6er )or * honestly don't kno60 that 6ould be something * 6ould do alot o) research )or * bet you might be able to ans6er that better than me 6ith your better kno6ledge o) the Bitcoin culture *t's something *'d be interested in )inding out * did see about the people0 6as it they 6ere trying to do a honeymoon0 or 9ust a !acation0 using only Bitcoin8?4A:1:@ SM: There 6as a couple 6ho 6anted to li!e the )irst 4 months o) their marriage on only Bitcoin0 but they 6ere in their hometo6n in Jtah or something like that ?4A:4:@ LI: * thought * read about somebody 6ho 6as trying to do a !acation that 6ay too ?4A:44@ SM: There could be and * 9ust don't kno6 about it ?laughs@?4A:4D@ LI: Eeah0 * think as our Bitcoin sales pick up0 and as 6e get the 6ord out about it0 * de)initely 6ill be researching that and looking )or opportunities $ and like * said *'d lo!e to partner 6ith as a small business oursel)0 * al6ays try

to gi!e business to small local companies operating all o!er the 6orld0 as long as *'!e pro!en their reliability &o0 i) * can )ind indi!idual hotels0 or tour companies0 or other tra!el related companies that are accepting Bitcoin * 6ould de)initely look to gi!e them business and spread the Bitcoin lo!e $and get more people tra!elling Bitcoin style and thinking about the possibility o) doing that ?48:18@ SM: Cool, Alright0 Loren &o0 6here can people )ind you online0 and i) they 6ant to0 use your ser!ices to book a Bitcoin !acation0 6here can they go to do that8?48:4A@ LI: -ell0 6e're on most social media -e ha!e tra!elpangea com *t's p$a$n$g$ e$a0 not g$a$e$a -e didnt do the o))icial spelling 0 6e 6ent )or something a little easier )or people to spell * guess -e're on =acebook0 and T6itter and all that as 6ell *n)oKtra!elpangea com is the email that 6ill get you the )astest response0 and * guess those are the main 6ays to )ind us -e'll be e7panding out our 6ebsite to ha!e Bitcoin payments 6here you can go and pay directly on the site !ia Bitcoin ?4::38@ SM: &o0 right no6 i) they 6ant to use Bitcoin to pay )or it they ha!e to make arrangements 6ith you kind o) by email0 is that ho6 it 6orks8?4::1<@ LI: -hat 6e'!e been doing is talking 6ith indi!idual clients and once 6e ha!e a plan0because there hasn't really been a need so )ar o) say a )lat rate or a )lat product to purchase since 6e're not like say a clothing store 6here you can buy this teeshirt )or 12 bucks and you can submit a N12 Bitcoin -e 6ill ha!e been in communication0 6e'll ha!e been talking0 6e'll ha!e planned your trip and )igured out your plans0 and then 6hen it comes time to actually purchase e!erything $and 6e'!e got your itinerary0 it's all set0 here's 6hat 6e're going to do0 6e're staying this place0 take this )light0 do this tour Then 6e kno6 the total and then 6e 9ust ha!e been in!oicing Bitcoin in!oices 6here then people can pay !ia Bitcoin once 6e ha!e the e7act amount nailed do6n As 6e do more trips and 6hen 6e do groups and things like that 6here say 42$42 people are doing the same trip0 then it's a set price and then 6e can ha!e you can go directly to the site and make a payment0 purchase this product at this price The tra!el business it's rare to ha!e this product at this price since 6e're planning a 6hole !acation ?<2:1:@ SM: (ight0 that makes sense ?<2:42@ LI: Eeah *t's something actually that 6e'!e thought about is the 6ays to put it online so that 6e don't ha!e to in!oice e!ery indi!idual person0 but to make it )e7ible enough that people can go in and make a Bitcoin payment $but also make it )or the right amount -e don't 6ant people sending us Bitcoin that isn't the correct amount )or their !acation0 or paying too little or too much and ha!ing to do partial re)unding and things *t's something 6e'!e been

considering the best 6ay to make it as con!enient as possible )or the clients 6ithout creating possible problems and areas )or things to go 6rong ?<3:2A@ SM: Gotcha Alright0 Loren *n)eld )rom 'Tra!el +angea'0 thank you so much )or talking 6ith me today * really appreciate your time0 this 6as a great inter!ie6,?<3:3A@ LI: >o problem0 thank you, *'m glad * could chat 6ith you,?<3:3:@

ABL: Thanks )or listening to episode 48 o) let's talk Bitcoin, Content )or today's sho6 6as pro!ided by &tephanie 'urphy0 Loren *n)eld0 and (ichard Boase 'usic 6as pro!ided by Cared (ubens *) you can't get enough original thought and discussion0 read our daily blog at letstalkbitcoin com &ign up )or our 6eekly ne6s letter at the6eeklybitcoin com To get in touch send me mail at AdamKletstalkbitcoin com0 or !isit letstalkbitcoin comLtalk to be directed to our listener's subreddit &ee you ne7t time,