Episode 33 Live From New York! Participants: Adam B. Levine (AL) ost Andreas Petersson (AP) !

!pecia" #$est %&ce"i$m 'a""et Andreas %. Antonopo$"os (AA) (o)*ost !tep*anie %$rp*y (!%) (o)*ost +onat*an %o*an (+%) BitcoinNY( !pecia" #$est (m$sic) ABL: i ,o"ks- Adam B. Levine *ere ,or Let.s /a"k Bitcoin. (ontin$in0 o$r A$0$st trend- toda&1s episode is anot*er two)parter. /*e second portion o, toda&1s episode was recorded in %an*attan. /*e da& a,ter t*e 2nside Bitcoins event wit* !tep*anie %$rp*& and specia" 0$est *ost +onat*an %o*an o, Bitcoin NY(. 'e ta"k a3o$t t*e con,erence- t*e attendees- 4ipp"e- A!2( minin0 pane"s- and a"so 3acon. Bi0 t*anks to +onat*an %o*an- w*o did a 0reat 5o3 wit* t*is se0ment and w*o &o$1"" 3e *earin0 more ,rom in t*e weeks to come. B$t ,irst- t*ere1s some important news ,or $sers o, Android wa""ets. '*en news 3reaks in t*e Bitcoin wor"d- o,ten times- it1s *ard to $nderstand. /*is week a v$"nera3i"it& was revea"ed in t*e Android operatin0 s&stem t*at p$t a rea" ,ear in t*e Bitcoin comm$nit&. L/B ost Andreas Antonopo$"os spoke wit* Andreas Petersson o, t*e %&ce"i$m wa""et pro5ect a3o$t e6act"& w*at *appened. B$t 3e,ore we 0et to t*at- Andreas- 2 *ad some 7$estions ,or &o$. First o,,- in t*e interview t*at ,o""ows- &o$ ta"k a "ot a3o$t entrop&. (an &o$ e6p"ain to me w*at t*at is in sort o, simp"e terms8 AA: !$re- entrop& is a meas$re o, *ow m$c* in,ormation t*ere is in a messa0e. 2, &o$ "ook at it t*e ot*er wa& aro$nd- *ow m$c* randomness t*ere is in a messa0e in comp$ter science terms. 2n p*&sics terms- it1s essentia""& *ow m$c* disorder t*ere is in a s&stem or *ow m$c* ener0& in t*e ,orm o, *eat t*ere is in a s&stem. B$t in t*e case o, in,ormation s&stems- rea""&- &o$ can sa& entrop& is sa&in0 t*e same as randomness. !o- t*e pro3"em we1re disc$ssin0 in t*is partic$"ar 3$0 is t*at somet*in0 t*at s*o$"d 3e random ) t*at means it s*o$"d *ave *i0* entrop& ) is not random. 2t doesn1t *ave t*e necessar& entrop&. 2n ,act- it1s a rat*er predicta3"e se7$ence. ABL: !o- w*en we ta"k a3o$t randomness- t*at can a"so 3e c*aracteri9ed as noise compared to t*e si0na"- ri0*t8 AA: 'e""- e,,ective"&- &es. 2n a random) i, &o$ *ave a random streamespecia""& i, it1s a sec$re random n$m3er 0enerator w*ere &o$ e6pect it to

*ave certain c*aracteristics o, randomness- t*en t*ere s*o$"d 3e no si0na" ) t*at1s t*e de,inition. Ever& 3it t*at comes o$t o, t*at s*o$"d 3e noise ) &o$ s*o$"d *ave no si0na". ABL: !o- it1s a"" noise t*en. :k- so i, it1s a"" noise- t*en is t*ere a di,,erence 3etween a "ot o, noise in a s&stem vers$s a "itt"e noise in a s&stem8 +$st not necessari"& ta"kin0 a3o$t random n$m3er 0enerators 5$st 3road"& speakin0. 2, &o$1re tr&in0 to encr&pt somet*in0 or sec$re somet*in0- is it 3etter to *ave more randomness t*an "ess randomness8 AA: Yo$ need a3so"$te randomness. Let me 0ive &o$ an e6amp"e. Let1s sa& t*at t*ere1s a ,$nction wit*in t*e s&stem w*ere &o$1re takin0 a random n$m3er and &o$1re m$"tip"&in0 it wit* &o$r secret ke&. !o- ,or simp"icit&1s sake- "et1s sa& 2 *ave a secret ke& and m& secret ke& is 3. !o 0ive me a random n$m3er 3etween ; and <=. ABL: 3< AA: Fantastic. !o- 21m 0onna m$"tip"& t*at 3& 3 and 21ve 0ot m& di0ita" si0nat$re. !o- i, 2 ask &o$ in m& ne6t transaction- 0ive me a n$m3er 3etween ; and <=. ABL: ;> AA: :k- 0reat- so &o$ 0ave me a di,,erent one. B$t w*at i, &o$ *ad said 3< a0ain- and 2 *ad t*en m$"tip"ied t*at 3& 3 and 3roadcast it to t*e network. And peop"e knew t*at t*e& co$"d 0$ess t*at i, &o$1d said 3< once- &o$ were "ike"& to sa& 3< a0ain. 'e""- t*en t*e& can 5$st divide 3& 3< and ,i0$re o$t w*at m& private ke& is. /*e& wo$"dn1t 3e a3"e to do t*at i, &o$ act$a""& came $p wit* a random n$m3er. !o- t*at1s t*e pro3"em. /*e pro3"em is &o$ s*o$"d sa& somet*in0 di,,erent- 3$t &o$ sa& t*e same n$m3er a0ain. ABL: And so- t*at1s more "ike"& to *appen in a s&stem t*at *as "ess entrop& t*an one t*at *as more entrop&- is t*at ri0*t8 Beca$se t*ere are ,ewer possi3"e n$m3ers8 AA: !o t*e wa& it works is w*en &o$ *ave a sec$re cr&pto0rap*ic random n$m3er 0enerator- &o$ can on"& p$"" o$t 3its ,or t*e amo$nt o, entrop& it *as. !o- "et1s sa& ,or e6amp"e it *as c$rrent"& ;?@ random 3its to 0ive &o$. 2, &o$ 0et ;?@ random 3its- t*ose wi"" 3e random. 2, &o$ tried to p$"" o$t ?== 3its- &o$ know- t*e ,irst ;?@ wi"" 3e random 3$t a,ter t*at- t*e s&stem doesn1t

&et *ave eno$0* entrop&. Yo$ *ave to wait a 3it ,or random processes to occ$r. /*e 3asic concept 3e*ind it *ere is t*is was not a pro3"em o, r$nnin0 o$t o, entrop&- /*is was simp"& a 3roken a"0orit*m- so it was s$pposed to 0ive o$t ?<A 3its o, entrop& and instead it 0ave o$t on avera0e B. !o- t*e di,,erence t*ere is instead o, *avin0 more c*oices or pro3a3i"ities t*an t*ere are atoms in t*e $niverse- it came down to <== com3inations. /*at1s B 3its o, entrop&. !o- &o$ can ver& easi"& test a"" <== com3inations and prett& m$c* ,i0$re o$t w*at t*e ne6t random n$m3er- t*at1s s$pposed to 3e random- is and i, &o$ can 0$ess t*e ne6t n$m3er ) we""- it1s not random. ABL: !o- w*at s*o$"d *ave taken a"" t*e s$per comp$ters t*at are c$rrent"& in e6istence in order to crack t*is one partic$"ar ?<A de0rees o, randomness 3asica""&) AA: )Yo$ co$"d do on a w*ite 3oard wit* a pen. ABL: 4i0*t. :ka&- we""- t*at makes a "ot o, sense. :ka&- 0reat. 'e""- 2 rea""& appreciate &o$ providin0 some c"arit& ,or $s on t*is iss$e. Let1s 5$mp ri0*t into t*e interview wit* t*e ot*er Andreas. C2nter"$deD AA: i- ever&one. /*is *as 3een a rat*er e6citin0 week in t*e Bitcoin space wit* t*e anno$ncement o, a ver& critica" Android 3$0 t*at *as widespread reperc$ssions a"" across t*e mo3i"e wa""et space. /o disc$ss t*is in a 3it more detai"- 21m ver& p"eased to 3e 5oined toda& 3& Andreas Petersson- w*o is one o, t*e ownersEa$t*ors o, t*e %&ce"i$m %o3i"e 'a""et- and *e1s *ere to ta"k to $s a 3it a3o$t t*is recent 3reac*. AP: e""o- ever&one. AA: e""o Andreas- t*ank &o$ so m$c* ,or 5oinin0 $s. (an &o$ te"" me a 3it a3o$t w*at e6act"& t*e pro3"em is ) w*ere did t*is start8 AP: /o see t*e so$rce o, t*e pro3"em- we *ave to 0o 3ack in time a "itt"e 3it to ?=;? w*en t*ere was an anno$ncement o, a randomness ,ai"$re in t*e Android imp"ementation o, +ava. Basica""&- in t*e *armon& s&stem. /*is was presented in t*e 4!A con,erence in ?=;3 ) 2 t*ink it was %arc*. /*is was main"& an academic pro3"em- 3eca$se no3od& co$"d rea""& see t*e practica" pro3"em 3e*ind it- e6cept ,or t*is weird randomness 3e*avior on Android.

AA: Yea*- so it wo$"d on"& rea""& app"& i, &o$ *ad some kind o, 3i9arre di0ita" c$rrenc& t*at some*ow co$"d 3e sto"en- ri0*t8 AP: Yes- &ea*- so most peop"e don1t rea""& notice i, "et1s sa& t*eir !!L connections aren1t rea""& t*at sec$re or i, t*e& enco$nter some ot*er kind o, pro3"em. !o- Bitcoin rea""& p$ts t*e s&stem $nder test *ere and revea"s t*ese kinds o, pro3"ems. /o 3e precise- 2 t*ink t*is is not a sin0"e pro3"em ) t*ere are two ver& distinct pro3"ems t*at we *ave seen *ere. /*e ,irst pro3"em is&o$ know- t*ere1s a so ca""ed random device in most Lin$6 s&stems or in a"" Lin$6 s&stems- and ,rom t*at t*ere is a F)4andom device. /*ese seem to 3e workin0 ,ine as ,ar- as we know. AA: !o- t*e operatin0 s&stem random device 0enerator t*at creates random n$m3ers ) t*at1s workin0 oka& on Android. AP: Yea*- &ea* ) so to act$a""& $se random n$m3ers on Android $sin0 +ava "an0$a0e- &o$ need to instantiate a so)ca""ed sec$re random o35ect and t*at sec$re random o35ect is 5$st a wrapper ,or a s&stem "i3rar&- and t*at is common"& imp"emented $sin0 :pen!!L. And t*at imp"ements t*e randomness 3& ta"kin0 to t*e device and so t*ere are man& "a&ers invo"ved *ere. 'a""et deve"opers did not*in0 wron0. /*e& st$ck to t*e doc$mentation and app"ied t*e 3est practices to not rewrite &o$r cr&pto0rap*& and so on. !o- t*at was not t*e pro3"em. /*e pro3"em was- 3etween a"" t*ese "a&ersentrop& was removed ,rom t*e ori0ina" entrop& so$rce t*at is t*e random device. AA: !o- 3asica""&- &o$1re 0ettin0 n$m3ers t*at are "ess random t*an t*e& s*o$"d 3e ,rom t*e so$rce- so 0rad$a""&- t*e&1re 0ettin0 "ess and "ess randomoka&8 AP: Yea*- 3$t ,rom t*at 3$0 direct"& no3od& rea""& "ost mone&. 2 *ave ta"ked to anot*er 0$& w*o is crackin0 private ke&s as a *o33&- and *e 0enerated "ots and "ots o, random n$m3ers. ?.A mi""ion random n$m3ers- and *e never 0ot t*e co""ision $sin0 Android. e never 0ot t*e co""ision- so t*ere was no private ke& compromised as ,ar as we know. 'e don1t know rea""&- 3$t w*at we do know is t*at t*ere is a second iss$e. /*at is- w*en si0nin0 transactions- t*ere is a"so a random n$m3er needed to 0enerate a va"id si0nat$re. And t*ose si0nat$res are de,inite"& not as random as we t*ink t*e& are.

AA: !o- "et me 5$st c"ari,& t*ere- Andreas- ,or a second. !o- t*e iss$e is not wit* t*e ke& 0eneration per se- t*e iss$e is: w*en &o$ tr& to si0n a transaction- especia""& to spend it- &o$ are in a sit$ation w*ere &o$ are seedin0 t*at si0nat$re wit* a random n$m3er w*ic* is not random- and i, &o$ do t*at more t*an twice- t*at can revea" t*e private ke&. 2s t*at correct8 AP: Yes- e6act"&. !o- t*ere is an e7$ation- it is descri3ed ver& nice"& in a Bitcoin %a0a9ine artic"e. 2, &o$ *ave t*is random n$m3er and &o$ $se it twice- t*en $sin0 t*is e7$ation &o$ can trivia""&- simp"& ca"c$"ate t*e private ke& t*at was $sed. /*is means t*at i, &o$ *ave a weak random n$m3er 0enerator- t*at can potentia""& e6pose &o$r private ke& to ever&one. /*at *as *appened a n$m3er o, times in t*e past. %ost o, t*e time w*ere it was w*en peop"e were p"a&in0 aro$nd wit* to& imp"ementations- protot&pe imp"ementations o, c"ients. B$t it a"so *appened on Android direct"& w*en si0nin0 transactions. /*e iss$e is t*at &o$ create a new sec$re- random instance and t*en &o$ 7$er& it twice. Fnder ver& weird circ$mstances- t*ere are ,a""3ack scenarios w*ere t*e entrop& 0oes down to a "eve" w*ere it *as a ver& *i0* c*ance o, repeatin0 t*e same va"$e. Basica""&- 2 t*ink t*at in some cases t*e randomness can 0o down to B 3its o, entrop& instead o, ?<A 3its o, entrop&. AA: #iven a"" o, t*ose circ$mstances- 2 wo$"d ass$me t*at means w*et*er &o$1ve 0enerated t*e ke& on an Android wa""et or not- i, &o$ *ave an Android wa""et t*at is $sin0 t*is +ava sec$re random n$m3er 0enerator- and &o$ $se t*at to spend mone&- at an& time- &o$ *ave a c*ance o, *avin0 revea"ed a private ke& ,or t*at partic$"ar wa""et8 AP: 4i0*t now- 2 wo$"d ass$me ) o, co$rse &o$ s*o$"d mi0rate &o$r ke&s 3eca$se o, t*e 0enera" entrop& iss$es ) 3$t- ri0*t now- i, &o$ *aven1t "ost &o$r mone& &et- it1s not e6treme"& "ike"& t*at &o$ wi"" "ose it in t*e ,$t$re 3eca$se o, t*is second v$"nera3i"it&. Beca$se t*at wo$"d mean i, &o$ contin$e $sin0 t*e o"d so,tware and 0enerate t*ese weak transactions- &est*en &o$ co$"d potentia""& e6pose t*at- 3$t t*at1s ver& $n"ike"&. AA: !o- one t*in0 t*at was rat*er interestin0 wit* t*is was t*at t*e 3$0 itse", e6presses itse", on t*e 3"ockc*ain in a wa& t*at an&one can 0o and ,ind t*ese s$spect transactions. Pres$ma3"&- &o$1re "ookin0 at a transaction- or rat*er &o$1re "ookin0 at two consec$tive transactions done 3& a same ke& w*ere t*e same random parameter GrH was $sed ,or 3ot*- and pres$ma3"&- &o$ can 5$st write so,tware t*at tro""s t*ro$0* t*e 3"ock c*ain to ,ind t*ese- ri0*t8

AP: Yea*- and peop"e were doin0 t*is and &o$ wi"" "ose &o$r mone& rat*er 7$ick"& i, &o$ 0enerate s$c* a transaction. AA: 2, &o$1d a"read& done it &o$ wo$"d *ave "ost &o$r mone& a"read& so t*ere1s not*in0 to worr& a3o$t. +$st don1t make an& new transactions. AP: Yea*- and o, co$rse- a"" t*e c*an0e o, ke&s. /*ere are man& properties o, t*is stack- %!!L- and t*e Android AP2- t*at are kind o, s*ad&- in m& opinion- 3eca$se it certain"& isn1t impossi3"e to imp"ement t*at in a wa& t*at it wo$"d simp"& work. And it1s kind o, s*ad& t*at it ,ai"s in s$c* a wa&- so 2 wo$"d sa& i, some3od& $sed sec$re random on Android- ,or an& p$rposet*at &o$ s*o$"d c*an0e &o$r ke&s 3eca$se t*ere mi0*t 3e a v$"nera3i"it& t*at we don1t know e6act"& a3o$t &et. AA: !o- Andreas- wo$"d &o$ sa& t*at t*is Bitcoin demonstration makes t*e ?=;3 anno$ncement at 4!A m$c* more critica" and concrete now and s*o$"d t*ere,ore "ead ot*er deve"opers on Android doin0 so,tware t*at1s not direct"& re"ated to Bitcoin- 3$t to ot*er sec$re imp"ementations. (AP: A3so"$te"&.) /*is wi"" kind o, wake t*em $p- &o$ know- t*is is now in t*e wi"d and $sa3"e. AP: 2 don1t rea""& t*ink it1s a ver& 3i0 coincidence t*at a"" t*ese 3$0s *appened to0et*er. A kind o, conspirac& t*eor& *ere- 3$t o, co$rse- t*is 3$0 makes it potentia""& m$c* easier ,or an&one wit* massive comp$tin0 reso$rces to crack encr&pted comm$nication. And t*ere,ore- ever&one w*o is t*e a$t*or o, an& cr&pto0rap*ica""&)interestin0 app"ication on Android s*o$"d de,inite"& cease to $se !ec$re4andom and rat*er "ook ,or an a"ternative. !o- t*e most o3vio$s a"ternative wo$"d 3e to access IAFF random device. IAFF random ,i"e direct"& and read ,rom t*at- as we do now in t*e %&ce"i$m wa""et. /*e ot*er t*in0 is t*at 21m c$rrent"& "ookin0 into an imp"ementation proposa" 3& Br$ce !c*neier- i, t*at wo$"d provide a ver& 0ood a"ternative- t*at we co$"d com3ine m$"tip"e entrop& so$rces. AA: A*- ri0*t- &es. As a deve"oper o, t*e pop$"ar and ver& ,$nctiona" and $se,$" %&ce"i$m wa""et- &o$1ve taken steps now to ,i6 t*is pro3"em. 21m ass$min0 a"" o, t*e Android Bitcoin wa""et deve"opers are doin0 so. '*at wo$"d t*e $sers e6perience8 'o$"d t*e& e6perience simp"& an $pdate comin0 t*ro$0* t*eir p"a& store8

AP: Yes- so ,irst o, a"" 2 *ave to rea""& 0ive credit to +an %e""er- w*o rea""& did a tremendo$s 5o3 in workin0 over t*e weekend- and *e rea""& is a ,a3$"o$s deve"oper *ere- so t*ank &o$ +an. (AA: /*ank &o$- +an.) As ,ar as 2 know- a"" pop$"ar Android wa""ets *ave 3een $pdated- so t*at t*e& are ,o$r wa""ets o$t t*ere t*at keep &o$r own private ke&s on t*e device. /*at1s Bitcoin wa""et ,rom ($nknown ,orei0n word)J t*at1s %&ce"i$m wa""etB"ockc*ain.in,o- and a"so t*e now kind o, deprecated Bitcoin !pinner ) t*at was t*e previo$s app"ication ,rom +an ) was a"so $pdated. !o on some o, t*ese wa""ets- &o$ need to man$a""& do t*e ke& rotation- 3$t on ot*ers- ,or e6amp"e- on t*e %&ce"i$m wa""et- t*ere1s a wi9ard t*at detects o"d ke&s and a$tomatica""& moves t*em to new ke&s. And in t*e process- w*at 2 rea""& want to emp*asi9e *ere- p"ease do make a 3ack$p o, a"" &o$r o"d ke&s and &o$r new ke&s. Yo$ don1t know i, &o$1re 0oin0 to need t*em in t*e ,$t$re. 2n t*e wi9ard- it a"so 0ives &o$ t*e opport$nit& to make a 3ack$p. !o- p"ease do t*at and 0et t*ose private ke&s onto a piece o, paper- p"ease. AA: :ka&- &es- ver& 0ood advice. #et it onto paper wa""ets as 3ack$ps. !o"et me 5$st c"ari,& a tin& 3it. Yo$ ta"ked a3o$t t*e rotatin0 ke&s- i, we were to 3reak down t*is process: &o$ down"oad t*e new code ,rom t*e so,tware deve"opers w*o *ave $pdated t*e code- &o$ make a 3ack$p o, t*e ke&s as &o$ ver& ri0*t"& 5$st said- t*en &o$ create a new wa""et- and t*en &o$ essentia""& send a"" t*e mone& ,rom t*e o"d wa""et to t*e new wa""et8 2s t*at it- prett& m$c*8 AP: Yo$ wi"" send mone& ,rom one address to anot*er address- and &o$r wa""et so,tware now *as ma&3e 3ot* addresses in it or 5$st one address in itdependin0 on t*e imp"ementation $sed. 2t1s not a ver& comp"e6 pro3"em&o$1re essentia""& 5$st sendin0 mone& to &o$rse", and it1s a new address. AA: And ver& critica""&- 2 wo$"d sa&- t*is *as to *appen a,ter t*e so,tware *as 3een ,i6ed- 3eca$se i, &o$ 5$st 0enerate a new address and tried to send &o$r mone&- &o$ wi"" 3e creatin0 e6act"& t*e kinds o, transactions t*at co$"d compromise &o$r private ke&- ri0*t8 AP: Yea*- so $pdates ,or a"" t*e wa""ets *ave 3een p$s*ed o$t so t*e p"a& store and t*e two ot*er c*anne"s- t*at s*o$"dn1t 3e a pro3"em. (an 2 ask &o$ somet*in0 in ret$rn re0ardin0 t*is topic. Yo$ were invo"ved in t*e paper wa""et pro5ect- &ea*8 ow is t*e sit$ation t*ere8 Io &o$ *ave an& inside in,ormation a3o$t... w*at kind o, randomness does t*e paper wa""et provide &o$8

AA: /*e ori0ina" paper wa""et is derived ,rom t*e 3itaddress.or0 version ?.K. /*at1s t*e same so,tware we $se ,or open paper wa""ets- sa,e paper wa""etsand as ,ar as 2 know- t*e Bitcoin paper wa""ets- w*ic* is anot*er version. A"" o, t*ose $se t*e operatin0 s&stem dev$random ,rom wit*in a +ava!cript wrapper "i3rar&. /*at does not r$n on Android- so t*at wo$"d 3e inside t*e desktop 3rowser ) as ,ar as 2 know- t*ere1s no v$"nera3i"ities t*ere. AP: 2t wo$"d re"& on t*e +ava!cript imp"ementation o, t*e 3rowser $sed. !oit co$"d 3e (*rome or 2nternet E6p"orer or somet*in0. AA: 'e"" it1s cross)3rowser so it operates on a"" o, t*em- 3$t certain"& &es ) one o, t*e considerations *ere- and 2 t*ink a 0ood sec$rit& practice- and one o, t*e reasons 2 was not as worried a3o$t t*is even t*o$0* 2 $se a mo3i"e wa""et is simp"& t*at 2 on"& *ad ?)3L o, m& ,$nds on"ine on t*e wa""ets t*at were doin0 transactions ,rom m& mo3i"e c"ient. /*e rest was a"" in paper wa""ets and t*at1s a 0ood wa& to 3e rest)ass$red essentia""& ) to 3e re"a6ed a3o$t it. AP: Yea*- &ea*- a3so"$te"&. !o- a"so- 2 mean on paper wa""et- &o$ re"& on *avin0 a 0ood entrop& ,or t*e ke& o, co$rse- 3$t t*e main pro3"em t*e d$p"icated random va"$es in t*e transaction doesn1t even s*ow $p in paper wa""ets 3eca$se t*e& don1t do an& transactions- o, co$rse. AA: /*at is correct a"t*o$0* we do *ave- in o$r "atest version o, !a,e Paper 'a""ets so,tware- we do *ave a wa& to comp"ete"& sweep and redeem and it wi"" create a transaction- so 2 wo$"d *ave to "ook at t*e random n$m3er 0enerator. B$t in 0enera"- 2 t*ink t*is is rea""& a si0n o, t*in0s to come3eca$se v$"nera3i"ities in t*e past *ad time 3etween 0oin0 ,rom t*eoretica" to practica" and in t*e wi"d- 3$t w*at 3itcoin does is it provides immediate incentive to take t*at t*eoretica" e6p"oit practica" and make some mone& o,, o, it. !o- we1re 0oin0 to see t*is *appen more and more- wo$"d &o$ sa&8 AP: A3so"$te"&- &ea*. !o- t*is is rea""& s*owin0 t*e weaknesses on some s&stems and a"so in comp$ter sec$rit&- it1s not s$rprisin0 t*at a "ot o, ,i"e *osts- server *osts- *ave 3een *acked and attackers speci,ica""& went on"& ,or t*e Bitcoin c$stomers and "e,t ever&one e"se a"one. !o- t*is rea""& s*ows t*e sec$rit& stat$s o, t*e s&stem i, &o$ *ave some 3itcoins $p ,or 0ra3s ,or an attacker.

AA: %ost s&stems are not 7$ite read&- &et- ,or storin0 di0ita" mone& 3$t we1re 0oin0 to "earn and deve"op as time 0oes 3&. 2 wo$"d "ike to t*ank &o$ so m$c*- Andreas Petersson- co)a$t*or o, t*e %&ce"i$m mo3i"e wa""et- ,or 0ivin0 $s some e6ce""ent in,ormation toda& on w*at e6act"& is *appenin0 wit* Android random n$m3er 0enerator- *ow to so"ve it- so w*at to "ook o$t ,or- and t*ank &o$ so m$c* ,or a"" t*is $se,$" in,ormation. AP: Yo$1re we"come. (Advertisement) Eas& IN! is t*e !wiss)arm& kni,e ,or &o$r domain names ) *e"pin0 meet t*eir c$stomer1s individ$a" needs since ;BB@. Eas& IN! *as 3een an o$tspoken critic o, !:PA and (2!PA. Eas& IN! was an ear"& s$pporter o, Bitcoin and now t*e& are pro$d to sponsor t*is s*ow. Io 3$siness wit* a 3$siness t*at s*ares &o$r va"$es. #et a ;3L disco$nt w*en &o$ pa& wit* 3itcoin. #o to 3itcoin.eas&dns.com and 3e s$re to $se disco$nt code L/B. i. /*is is +ason Min0- ,or Bitcoin;==.or0- and &o$1re "istenin0 to Let.s /a"k Bitcoin. Bitcoin;== is o"d)sc*oo" Bitcoin p*i"ant*rop&. 'e1ve 3ro$0*t ,$rt*er awareness to Bitcoin 3& *avin0 c*arities and non)pro,its add a 3itcoin donation option to t*eir sites. /*en we wi"" award t*em wit* a N;-=== endowment ,or t*eir e,,orts. P"ease *e"p s$pport $s 3& eit*er donatin0 to o$r ca$se at Bitcoin;==.or0 or 3& *e"pin0 $s ,ind wort*& non) pro,its t*at are wi""in0 to accept 3itcoins ,or donations. /*anks. ABL: i- and we"come to episode C33D o, Let.s /a"k Bitcoin- we are on t*e 3@t* ,"oor o, t*e New Yorker ote" in New York- New York! Yesterda& we attended t*e 2nside Bitcoins (on,erence- and t*is mornin0- it1s a3o$t) 2 0$ess it.s a "itt"e a,ter ;= A% East (oast time- w*ic* means a3o$t > A% 'est (oast time. /*e time t*at m& 3rain is sti"" on. +oinin0 $s toda& we1ve 0ot m& norma" co)*ost !tep*anie %$rp*&. !%: e""o- we1re in t*e same room a0ain! ABL: Yes- we1re in t*e same room a0ain. !econd time! !weet. And t*en a"so specia" 0$est *ost %r. +onat*an %o*an. +%: e&- 2 *ave some 3i0 s*oes to ,i"" 3$t 2 *ope to do t*em 7$ite (ina$di3"e).

ABL: !o- +on %o*an- a0ain- *as 3een on t*e s*ow 3e,ore and is t*e ,o$nder and w*ir"wind o, activit& t*at constit$tes t*e p"annin0 3e*ind t*e Bitcoin NY( 0ro$p and vario$s events. 'e went to a cocktai" part& t*e ni0*t 3e,ore "ast8 +%: Yes- on %onda&. ABL: !econd %arket- t*at &o$ *e"ped p$t to0et*er and it was a com3ination 0ro$p event ,or Let.s /a"k Bitcoin and ,or a co$p"e o, ot*er ) 2 t*ink (oinsetter was t*ere8 !%: Yea*. ABL: Yea*- (oinsetter- and t*en t*e ot*er one was- o, co$rse- !econd %arket. +%: Yea*- 2 *eard t*at ;K= peop"e 4!OP1d- t*e& *ad to kick peop"e o$t. ABL: Yea*- t*at was a ,$nn& t*in0. Apo"o0ies to "isteners i, an&3od& didn1t 0et in- ,ee" ,ree to emai" comp"aints to AdamPLets/a"kBitcoin.com. B$t &ea*- so t*is was an incredi3"e event! 2 0otta sa&- even ,or a one da& event- a "ot o, st$,, *appens- &o$ know- t*e ta"ks a0ain ) we *ad t*is t*in0 w*ere t*e ta"ks were 0ood- 3$t it was more a3o$t t*e attendees t*an rea""& a3o$t t*e speakers. +%: !ome ,eed3ack 2 0ot was t*ere were wa& more ama9in0 peop"e in t*e a$dience t*an sometimes as a pane"ist- 21m 0onna sa&) ABL: 4i0*t- we a"" spoke t*ere. 2 ,ee" com,orta3"e sa&in0) (a"" "a$0*) +%: 2 wo$"d ta"k "ike- Q'*at do &o$ do8 '*& weren1t &o$ on t*at8 :* m& 0od!Q !%: 2t1s tr$e. Yo$1d wa"k aro$nd and ever&one *as (E: on t*eir name ta0. 2 wanted to sa& 21m t*e (E: o, :rk /*erap& or somet*in0. (a"" "a$0*) B$t &ea*- 2 mean ever&3od& *ad a pro5ect- t*e& a"" *ad t*in0s to sa&. At one point- 2 was doin0 some interviews o$t in t*e *a""wa& and 2 rea"i9ed t*at severa" *o$rs *ad 0one 3& and 2 *ad missed Adam1s ta"k act$a""&- and 2 wanted to see it 3$t 2 was "ike 5$st one interview a,ter t*e ot*er- so...

ABL: Yea* &ea*- no- &o$ were 7$ite t*e mac*ine o$t t*ere- t*at was t*e t*in0. !o *ow man& interviews did &o$ 0et t*is time- !tep*anie8 !%: :*- at "east a do9en. ABL: :ka&- so &o$ 0ot- 2 t*ink it was- was it ?= "ast time8 2 t*ink it was a3o$t ?< "ast time8 :ka&- so t*e ratio is a3o$t keepin0 $p- it1s a3o$t ;?);< a da&. !%: 'e""- *ope,$""&- it1s 7$a"it& too and not 5$st 7$antit&. B$t *onest"&- 2 t*o$0*t t*e& were 0reat. 2 ta"ked to some peop"e t*at 2 *ad 3een wantin0 to ta"k to and it was rea""& interestin0. Especia""& to *ear more a3o$t w*at1s 0oin0 on in t*e minin0 scene. /*ose were pro3a3"& m& ,avorite interviews. 2 ta"ked to !am ,rom MN( %iner and +os* ,rom B$tter,"& La3s. 2 a"so ,o$nd o$t a3o$t Feat*ercoin. /*at was interestin0- too. ABL:Yea*- &ea*- did &o$ meet t*e (2: t*ere8 !%: Yes- t*at was Peter. ABL: 'as t*at *is name8 2 t*o$0*t *is name was +o*n. 21m terri3"e wit* names. !%: 2t was Peter +o*n. ABL: Peter +o*n! /*ere &o$ 0o- oka&- t*at makes sense. +%: %& mot*er sa&s to never tr$st peop"e wit* two ,irst names. %a&3e t*at1s a si0n. 2 *ad no idea *e was t*ere. !%: Yea*- it was coo". 2 "earned some t*in0s 2 didn1t know a3o$t Feat*ercoin 3e,ore and 2 kind o, wanted to 0et Feat*ercoins "ast ni0*t w*en 2 0ot *ome. +%: 2 5oke wit* +onat*an 'or*an- t*e Bit%essa0e 0$&- t*at we s*o$"d make o$r own cr&pto c$rrenc& and ca"" it 3reat* "ike air. And w*at it wi"" do is t*ere wi"" on"& ever 3e ?; 7$adri""ion $nits in circ$"ation and it wi"" 3e t*e *eir to Feat*ercoin1s copper. (a"" "a$0*) 2t1s so spite ) it1s $nmetera3"e. 2t1s 5$st &o$ don1t care 3eca$se it1s so man&. 2 t*ink it1s 0onna 0o p"aces. 2 t*ink t*is is t*e time to anno$nce it.

!%: /*ere is so m$c* more 0oin0 on- too. /*ere were a "ot o, 3i0 media t*ere. Adam- &o$ know- 2 don1t know i, t*e&1re 0oin0 to do an&t*in0 wit* it3$t &o$ and 2 were 3ot* on camera ,or (B! nationa". ABL: Yea*- no- s*e was e6cited. 'e spoke wit* t*e prod$cer t*ere- 2 act$a""& ) wa"kin0 o$t o, t*e ta"ks on t*e wa& to "$nc*- &o$ know 2 act$a""& didn1t eat 3reak,ast &esterda& and so 2 was *eadin0 to "$nc*. B$t t*en 2 was wa"kin0 3& and 2 saw t*is 3ewi"dered "ookin0 woman w*o *ad a nameta0 t*at said Gprod$cer (B!-H and 2 "ike reversed- came 3ack- and was "ikeQ e&- 21m Adam B. Levine o, Let.s /a"k Bitcoin! Io &o$ need an& *e"p ,indin0 an&one8Q !o- t*at1s w*at 2 tr& to do at t*ese events most o, a"" is 5$st to 3e *e"p,$" and to) !%: :*- &o$ were 0reat wit* t*at! Yo$ "ined $p a 3$nc* o, interviews. 2 t*ink s*e "earned a "ot a3o$t 3itcoins 3eca$se s*e was tota""& new to it and 21m 0"ad t*e& decided to come. (NN was t*ere in t*e mornin0. ABL: 'e"" t*e& weren1t necessari"&) (B! wasn1t) s*e was 5$st t*ere to see i, t*e& s*o$"d cover it. And so- a,ter 2 to"d *er t*at 2 co$"d 0et *er "ike ;= interviews s*e1s "ike- G:k- 21m ca""in0 t*e crew.H /*en t*e& s*owed $p a3o$t a *a", *o$r "ater. B$t no- it was 0reat- it1s terri,ic. A0ain- Bitcoin and cr&ptoc$rrencies in 0enera" are *ard to $nderstand i, &o$ don1t *ave t*e 3asis to $nderstand t*em and so w*en especia""& 5o$rna"ists come into p"a& ) a "ot o, times t*ese peop"e don1t *ave a rea" monetar& 3ack0ro$nd and so it1s *ard to appreciate it. B$t &o$ know- i, &o$ can 0et o$t t*ere and 0ive t*em 0ood ana"o0ies- t*e& can $nderstand and t*e& can take 3ack to t*eir "isteners and t*eir viewers ) 3eca$se t*at o, co$rse is t*e ot*er t*in0 is t*at i, t*e& can1t $nderstand it *ow in *e"" are t*e& s$pposed to present it to an a$dience w*o is even "ess in,ormed t*an t*e& are8 !o- &o$ know- 2 t*ink we act$a""& did some 0ood work &esterda& and 2 know PB! was t*ere- too. !%: 4e$ters- /ec*(r$nc*. A "ot o, 3i0 names- *onest"&. 2t was 0reat. +%: Yo$ know- at Ie,(on- t*e& *ave somet*in0 ca""ed Gspot t*e ,edH w*ere it1s a 0ame w*ere &o$ *ave to spot w*o1s a ,edera" a0ent. And act$a""&- 2 don1t know in t*e !an +ose con,erence i, &o$ *ad an&- 3$t- did &o$)) !%: Andreas c"aimed t*at *e identi,ied an FB2 a0ent. +%: 'ere &o$ a3"e to meet t*e specia" a0ent w*o was *ere ,rom t*e FB2 (&3er (rimes Iivision8

!%: 2 didn1t meet *im 3$t 2 *eard &o$1re *avin0 "$nc* wit* *im. +%: Yea*- ne6t week- 2 want to do t*at. e seems rea""& interestin0. !%: 'ow- so &o$ didn1t *ave to spot *im *e was o3vio$s. +%: Yea*- *e was wearin0 a name ta0 t*at read FB2. e didn1t "ook "ike a Fed. e was wearin0 a t)s*irt and 5$st *an0in0 o$t. !%: 'e""- t*en t*e 7$estion 3ecomes w*o was inco0nito. +%: 4i0*t- ri0*t. 2 *ad a rea""& ,$n moment w*ere someone *ad 0iven me *is card. And *e was "ike- Go*- m& 0od- 2 ta"ked to t*is Fed. Yo$ *ave to ta"k to *im.H !o- w*en 2 went to speak to *im- 2 said- G*e&- 21m +onat*an we s*o$"d 0ra3 "$nc* some time.H And *e said- Q:*- "et me 0ive &o$ m& card.Q And 2 was "ike- Qt*at1s a"ri0*t 2 a"read& *ave a"" o, &o$r in,ormation.Q ("a$0*s) And *e was "ike- Q'*at8Q ABL: A*ead o, t*e 0ame! ("a$0*s) Yea* ) no- in addition to t*e FB2 ) 2 did not meet t*e a0ent t*ere- 3$t 2 did see someone ,rom /reas$r& t*ere and 2 0ot a card ,rom t*em and we1re 0onna speak to t*em 3eca$se- a0ain- &o$ know t*e&1re... 4ea""& w*at it seemed "ike a0ain ) and t*is mi0*t not 3e tr$e o, ever&one in t*ese a0encies- 3$t certain"& t*e peop"e w*o are t*ere at t*e ver& "east seemed "ike t*e& were c$rio$s and 5$st didn1t rea""& know w*at was 0oin0 on. !o t*at co$"d 3e an act) !%: /*at wo$"d not s$rprise me.. ABL: 4i0*t- e6act"& 3$t it seems act$a""& ,air"& "ike"& t*at 0iven a"" t*e t*in0s to pa& attention to- t*is is 5$st simp"& not somet*in0 t*at t*e ma5orit& o, t*em are pa&in0 attention to. +%: 4i0*t. And &o$1d mentioned PB!. !o- 2 was speakin0 wit* t*em and at t*e end o, t*e interview t*e prod$cer *ad mentioned- QYo$ know- we were ta"kin0 a3o$t potentia""& t*inkin0 a3o$t acceptin0 3itcoin.Q And 2 said- Q:* m& 0od- t*at1s ama9in0! A"ri0*t- wait! 21m 0onna do as m$c* as 2 possi3"& can to make t*is a rea"it&...Q And t*at1s w*at1s so ama9in0 a3o$t t*e con,erence is w*en &o$ *ave 3==- K== entreprene$rs in a room- it1s rea""& eas& to start doin0 t*in0s. !o 2 5$st 0ot) 2 immediate"& ran to /on& #a""ippi o, BitPa&. And so 2 was "ike- QA"ri0*t &o$ and 2. 'e1re 0onna meet wit* PB!

and we1re 0onna make t*is *appen.Q And 2 0ot o$t t*ree s*eets o, paper- and 2 5$st ran aro$nd t*e con,erence and d$rin0 t*at time we act$a""& 0ot ?== 3itcoins p"ed0ed towards 0oin0 to PB!- s*o$"d t*e& accept 3itcoin. !o act$a""& +os* ,rom B$tter,"& La3s p"ed0ed <=. And t*en EFF p"ed0ed <=. And !am ,rom MN( %iner8 Yea*- *e p"ed0ed <= as we"". and t*en /rade*i"" p"ed0ed ;=. And t*en we *ave Bitcoin;==- w*ic* is a"wa&s avai"a3"e ,or ;= 3itcoin. And t*en a3o$t ?= peop"e a"so pitc*ed in a3o$t ; 3itcoin. !o- it was kind o, a comm$na" e,,ort. +$st a s*ock 3& *ow m$c* demand t*ere is to see someone "ike PB! 0et 3e*ind Bitcoin. ABL: /*at act$a""& e6ceeds t*e n$m3er &o$ 0oin0 ,or- ri0*t8 Beca$se at t*e end o, t*e con,erence we ended a "itt"e 3it ear"& 3eca$se one o, t*e speakers didn1t s*ow $p. (*ristian I$mont- 2 3e"ieve.... !%: :*... ,rom Food"er! ABL: Yea* !%: Yo$ wanted to ta"k to *im. ABL: 2 know! 'e1ve 3een tr&in0 to sc*ed$"e wit* *im. Beca$se a0ain- t*e& *ave a rea""& interestin0 $se case and t*at1s w*at *e was s$pposed to 3e speakin0 a3o$t t*ere- 3$t as ,ar as 2 $nderstand- it so$nds "ike *e missed two ,"i0*ts 3& comin0 *ere and did not make it in. !%: Yea*- 2 can $nderstand t*at it1s eas& to 0et "ost in New York and it1s eas& to... ABL: 2t1s eas& to not 0et to New York too apparent"&. !%: Yea*- tota""&. 'e""- *ope,$""& we1"" 3e a3"e to catc* $p wit* *im "ater. ABL: :*- &ea*- Food"er1s not 0oin0 an&w*ere. Yo$ know- a0ain- it seems "ike t*e&1re *avin0 a "ot o, s$ccess wit* t*e space- so t*ere1s no incentive ,or t*em to "eave. !%: 2 5$st saw somet*in0 sa&in0 t*at t*eir 3itcoin orders so- it1s a t*in0 w*ere &o$ can order take)o$t- and t*e& take 3itcoin. !o- &o$ can take)o$t "oca""& wit* 3itcoin and 2 5$st saw an artic"e a3o$t it and apparent"& t*e 3itcoin orders *ave 0rown some *$0e amo$nt ) "ike trip"ed over t*e "ast mont* or somet*in0.

ABL: !o- o, co$rse- t*e 7$estion wit* t*at a"wa&s is w*at were t*e& to 3e0in wit*8 Beca$se trip"in0... !%: Yea*- we *ad ; 3itcoin order "ast mont*- now we *ave 3. ("a$0*ter) ABL: !o- it1s a"" kind o, re"ative w*en &o$1re ta"kin1 a3o$t a3stract n$m3ers "ike t*at. !o- "et1s ta"k a3o$t t*e con,erence. 2 mean- t*at was certain"& somet*in0 ) is t*at we did see a "ot o, A!2(s t*ere. 2 don1t t*ink an&3od& spoke a3o$t A!2(s. /*is was not rea""& a tec*nica" event- t*is was more on t*e re0$"ator& side o, t*in0s. !%: Yea*- or 5$st "ike an intro. /*e& rea""& did tr& to make it ,riend"& to peop"e w*o *ad no idea w*at 3itcoin was. /*e ke&note speaker was (*ar"ie !*rem- so *e spoke ,irst t*in0 in t*e mornin0 and act$a""& 2 was seated ri0*t in ,ront o, *is parents- and so t*at was coo" 3eca$se 2 0ot to meet *is parents. e was sa&in0 t*at *e ,o$nded Bit2nsant- and *e1s a &o$n0 0$&. e1s on"& ?3 &ears o"d. +$st ama9in0 w*at *e1s done wit* Bit2nstant in t*at time. B$t *e was sa&in0 *e 0ot "a$0*ed o$t o, ever& vent$re capita" ,irm t*at *e tried to pitc* t*e idea to 3ack severa" &ears a0o. /*ree &ears a0o- 2 t*ink- w*en *e was tr&in0 to start Bit2nstant. !o- *e *ad to act$a""& 0et t*e start$p ,$ndin0 ,rom *is %om. And so- s*e was standin0 $p and s*e was "ike Gwoo*oo!H ABL:/*e n$m3er- t*o$0* ) t*at was t*e t*in0 t*at s$rprised me. 2 ass$med t*at t*ere was more cost 3e*ind Bit2nstant 3$t *e said t*at) !%: ;=-=== do""ars. ABL: Yea*- N;=-=== to start Bit2nstant. !%: Yea*. 21m s$re *e didn1t *ave an o,,ice in %an*attan at ,irst. ABL: 2 mean- o3vio$s"&- 3$t it 5$st 0oes to s*ow t*e 3arrier to entr& on t*ese properties even so even wit* somet*in0 "ike t*at- w*ere &o$1re act$a""& inter,acin0 wit* t*e monetar& side o, it is not t*at e6pensive $nti" &o$ 0et to re0$"ator& comp"iance. And once &o$ 0et to re0$"ator& comp"iance- t*e cost 0oes t*ro$0* t*e roo, and &o$ s$dden"& need mi""ions o, do""ars in order to pa& t*e 3onds- 5$st end"ess t*in0s. !%: 2 t*ink t*at1s rea""& important to point o$t 3eca$se it1s rea""&... a"read&we don1t rea""& *ave re0$"ation1s m$c* a3o$t 3itcoin- 3$t 5$st t*e t*o$0*t

t*at t*ere co$"d 3e re0$"ations a3o$t Bitcoin is sti,"in0 a "ot o, 3itcoin 3$siness. And we saw on t*e) t*ere was a vent$re capita"ist pane" act$a""& o, severa" investors w*o were eit*er *ad invested in 3itcoin 3$sinesses- or *ad invested in 3itcoin persona""&- or were p"annin0 on it. And one o, t*e t*in0s t*e& said t*at t*e& wo$"d avoid t*at was "ike a red ,"a0 ,or 3itcoin 3$sinesses t*at t*e& wo$"d not want to ,$nd a 3$siness was i, t*e& *ad 3asica""& "ike re0$"ations *an0in0 over t*eir *ead or "ike re0$"ator& "ia3i"ities. !o3asica""&- e6c*an0es and t*in0s t*at co$"d 3e potentia""& considered mone& services 3$sinesses or an&t*in0 "ike t*at. +%: And so at one o, m& week"& entreprene$rs*ip meetin0s- re0$"ation is t*e ta"k o, t*e town. Beca$se t*ere is t*is tremendo$s incentive ,or O(s to not want to invest in somet*in0 ,or w*ic* &o$ can1t 7$anti,& t*e risk ,or. And i, &o$ don1t *ave &o$r re0$"ation down- &o$1re 5$st a risk& 3et. !%: Yea*- it doesn1t matter *ow 0reat &o$r 3$siness is and t*at 5$st str$ck me as so $n,air. Yo$ co$"d *ave an ama9in0 idea ,or a 3$siness and t*ese 3$rea$crats are 5$st 0onna 0et in &o$r wa& . And &o$ won1t 3e a3"e to 0et ,$ndin0. ABL: an0 on a second. 2t1s not ,air- !tep*anie. 2t1s not ,air8 No- o, co$rse it1s not ,air. 2t1s not s$pposed to 3e ,air. +%: And &o$ know- t*ere1s reason w*& ,inance *asn1t c*an0ed t*at m$c* in America. And it1s 3eca$se o, w*at1s *appenin0 *ere. !%: Yea*- wit* t*e re0$"ations. E6act"&. Ever&3od& sa&s t*e F! is t*e "east ,riend"& environment ,or an& 3$siness t*at invo"ves mone&. +%: And 2 act$a""& t*ink t*at 3itcoin mi0*t 3e t*e canar& in t*e mine to sa& t*at- Q/*is mi0*t 3e t*e point w*ere pro0ress and innovation needs to "eave America in order to s$cceed.Q Beca$se 21ve 3een *avin0 weeks and weeks o, disc$ssions wit* re0$"ators and 2- m&se",- was scared awa& ,rom startin0 a compan& 5$st 3eca$se 2 wo$"d 3e a mone& transmitter and wo$"d need *$ndreds o, t*o$sands o, do""ars to start m& idea w*en rea""& t*e costs were $nder ;= 0rand to 0et it started. !%: 'e""- *ow man& peop"e *ave t*e same e6perience8 +%: And so man& 21m ta"kin0 to t*em and t*e answer is a"wa&s- Q'e"" &o$ know- Eric and #a3e and t*e 3$nc*- down in Panama- t*e&1"" tota""& ) t*e&1""

*ook &o$ $p. /*e&1"" 0ive &o$ a p"ace to cras* ,or a 3it $nti" &o$ ,ind somew*ere and Panama is ri0*t t*ere- =L income ta6- we co$"d do it 0$&s.Q !%: And &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t (oinap$"t8 +%: Yes (oinap$"t. !%: /*at1s t*e compan& Eric Oor*ees... Yea*- t*at rea""& stood o$t to me- 2 mean- 5$st t*e ,oc$s on w*ere is t*is 0onna 0o ,rom a re0$"ator& standpoint and 2 ,ee" rea""& sad a3o$t t*at. 2 "ove to see t*ese 3$sinesses 0rowin0. And we *ave s$c* an ama9in0 tec*no"o0& t*at co$"d do so m$c* ,or ,reedom in t*e wor"d- ,or convenience... 2t 5$st opens $p so man& possi3i"ities. 2t rea""& is t*e ,$t$re o, mone& ,or a reason 3eca$se it1s so m$c* 3etter t*an w*at we1ve 0ot ri0*t now. (redit cards were 0reat- t*e& were an innovation- 3$t t*at was K= or 3= &ears a0o- ri0*t8 At t*is point8 And so- &o$ know- it1s time ,or somet*in0 new and 2 wo$"d "ike it to 3e a3"e to 5$st 0o and see w*at *appens wit* it. B$t it seems "ike t*ere1s a storm c"o$d t*at ma& 3e *o"din0 a "ot o, peop"e 3ack. ABL: Yea*- &o$ know- 2 mean- 2 t*ink t*at) :k- so in addition to t*e O(- in addition to t*e miners t*at we saw- t*e miner man$,act$rers t*at we saw- we a"so saw a w*o"e 3$nc* o, "aw&ers. /*is was rea""&- 2 was s$rprised 3& *ow we""Rrepresented t*e& were. And &o$ know we saw t*e ,irm t*at did t*e.. !%: :* rea""&- t*e "aw&ers were act$a""& we"")represented8 ABL: 'e were act$a""& sittin0 in ,ront o, a 0ent"eman w*o represents t*e on"ine BA4- 2 t*ink is *is pro5ect. 2t1s o$t o, !o$t* A,rica- 3$t t*e& *ave 3-=== "aw&ers w*o *e speaks to and &o$ know- *e was t*ere 5$st "earnin0 a3o$t 3itcoins. !o we ta"ked to *im ,or a rea""& "on0 time. e was ver& interested. /*e&1re a"so into permac$"t$re. (r&sta"- *is wi,e... (Yo$1re not 0onna ta"k8 :ka&- nevermind.). Yea*- (r&sta" spoke to t*em a3o$t permac$"t$re more t*an 2 did m& wi,e (r&sta". !*e1s t*e en0ineer) !%: !*e1s awesome. !*e1s o$r prod$cer. ABL: !*e1s o$r prod$cer. B$t &ea*- t*e& were we"")represented. 2n t*e ta"ksit seemed "ike t*ere was a t*eme t*at 2 was a "itt"e 3it dist$r3ed 3&- w*ic* is t*at Bitcoin ,$ndamenta""& *as to c*an0e in order to work in t*e "on0 term.

!%: Yea*- 2 saw t*at- and 2 t*ink t*at 2 tota""& t*ink t*at1s inspired 3& t*e re0$"ations t*at peop"e ,ear are comin0. And so t*e&1re "ike- Q'e""- &o$ know it1s not so 3ad i, we don1t make it anon&mo$s and we i, we don1t ca$se c*ar0e3acks and i, we 3$i"d c*ar0e3acks into Bitcoin- w*at1s t*e 3i0 dea"8 '*at1s t*e 3i0 dea" is it1s not Bitcoin an& more. +%: 'e""- 2 t*ink it1s eas& to con,$se a 3$siness opport$nit& to ,$ndamenta" c*an0es to 3itcoin itse",. !o- t*ese peop"e- t*at1s w*at 3$sinesses are ,or. Yo$ see a "itt"e 0ap and &o$ ,i"" t*at nic*e. !o- 2 t*ink t*at a "ot o, t*ese are 5$st 0oin0 to 3e a 3itcoin 3ack in 3$siness t*at are 0oin0 to ,i"" t*e capacit& to ,aci"itate c*ar0e3acks. ABL: 'e""- 2 t*ink t*at1s t*e *ope t*at1s t*e *ope ) is t*at &o$ wind $p wit* somet*in0 "ike t*at- is t*at &o$ wind $p wit* "ike an ins$rance t&pe o, s&stem w*ere merc*ants s$3scri3e and pa& a ,ee. And t*en t*ere1s t*e a3i"it& to do vo"$ntar& c*ar0e3acks and t*en &o$ *ave a t*ird)part& ar3itrator w*o can essentia""& come in and mediate t*at. !%: 2t can *appen wit* escrow services now t*o$0*. /*ere are some- 2 mean- t*at are startin0... ABL: Yes- t*at1s tr$e- t*at1s tr$e- 3$t a0ain. Yo$ add "a&ers o, cost to t*is t*in0 ever& time &o$ do st$,,. +%: 4i0*t. ABL: And 2 mean- and t*at- a0ain- is t*e pro3"em. /*at over t*e "on0 term t*e 7$estion is- are we t*rowin0 t*e 3a3& o$t wit* t*e 3at* water 3& tr&in0 to ,i6 t*ese pro3"ems- are we in ,act r$inin0 t*e s&stem as a w*o"e8 !%: Yea*- t*is revo"$tionar& tec*no"o0& t*at is comp"ete"& di,,erent ,rom t*e "e0ac& 3ankin0 s&stem is so 0reat! 'e 5$st need to make it a "itt"e more "ike t*e "e0ac& 3ankin0 s&stem to make it 3etter. Yea*- and 2 was dist$r3ed 3& t*e wa& it was presented in a "ot o, t*e ta"ks t*at 2 saw. 'e need to do t*is. Yo$ know- "ike it1s not so 3ad. Let1s 5$st tie o$r identities to a"" o, o$r Bitcoin addresses and p$t a socia" sec$rit& n$m3er on it. Let1s- &o$ know- 0et rid o, t*e irreversi3i"it& o, transactions! And we need to do t*is- or e"se Bitcoin wi"" never 0et mainstream adoption. And 2 disa0ree wit* t*at. And 2 was sad to see t*at sort o,- 2 0$ess t*e& wo$"d pro3a3"& sa&- we"" we1re 3ein0 pra0matic. Beca$se t*is is 0onna *ave to *appen an&wa& i, Bitcoin is 0onna s$cceed. 'e"" 21m 0onna take t*e idea"ist position as 2 a"wa&s do. And 2 5$st

want to p$t it o$t t*ere and sa&- 2 don1t t*ink t*at *as to *appen. And we can $se Bitcoin as it was initia""& intended and t*ere are certain"& $ses ,or Bitcoin t*at don1t invo"ve sacri,icin0 some o, t*ose 0reat t*in0s a3o$t Bitcoin. ABL: 4i0*t- and &o$ know t*e option is a"wa&s t*ere i, &o$ want to create (omp"& (oin. 2 t*ink t*at t*at ) !%: ("a$0*s) (omp"& (oin! Yea*- t*at wo$"d 3e a 0reat market idea. ABL: /*ere1s a *$0e nic*e ,or t*at 2 t*ink. !%: !ad"& 2 t*ink t*ere are "ots o, peop"e w*o wo$"d *ear it and t*e&1d sa&Q:*- o* 0ood&- 2 can do ever&t*in0 t*e re0$"ators want me to do.Q ABL: Beca$se 2 t*o$0*t... it does e6ist- it1s ca""ed 4ipp"e. +%: A*- t*ere &o$ 0o. 'e""- even 4ipp"e *as some pro3"ems 3eca$se it is sti"" not anon&mo$s- 3eca$se it *as entr& points and e6it points w*ere t*ere1s identi,ication t*at asks.. !%: '*at do peop"e critici9e 4ipp"e ,or8 (an &o$ 5$st 0ive $s overview on t*at8 Beca$se 2 t*ink a "ot o, o$r "isteners don1t even know w*at 4ipp"e is "et a"one $nderstand t*e criticisms o, it- so "et1s ta"k a3o$t t*at. +%: !o- 21m ass$min0 t*e&1re 0reat entreprene$rs. 21m not dispara0in0 t*em. A"" t*e power to t*em ,or tr&in0 to 3etter t*e ecos&stem. B$t w*en it comes to "ookin0 at a"ternative cr&pto c$rrencies- t*ere are a co$p"e o, ke& identi,iers as to w*et*er or not t*is is a scam. And w*en &o$ app"& it to somet*in0 "ike 4ipp"e- it kind o, *as some warnin0 si0na"s. !o one o, t*em is pre)minin0. !o i, &o$1re 0oin0) !%: Are &o$ ta"kin0 a3o$t S4P w*ic* is t*e c$rrenc& t*at 4ipp"e $ses8 +%: Yes. !%: :ka&- so "et1s sa& w*at 4ipp"e is ,irst- 2 mean ) +%: !orr&.

!%: !o- 4ipp"e is "ike- $m... ("a$0*s) so 2 don1t comp"ete"& $nderstand it eit*er- so correct me i, 21m wron0. B$t- 3asica""& it1s a network w*ere &o$ can easi"& convert di,,erent c$rrencies. Let1s sa& &o$ need to 3orrow N<= to 0et some 0roceries or somet*in0. Like- &o$ co$"d tr$st some3od& w*o tr$sts some3od& e"se in (*ina and t*e& co$"d 3asica""& send ) "oan &o$ 3itcoins- or "oan &o$ 4ipp"es- or "oan &o$ Y$ans- or w*atever- and &o$ co$"d 0et &o$r N<=. And 4ipp"e is 5$st "ike t*e medi$m o, e6c*an0e a"" t*e "endin0 takes p"ace o$tside o, 4ipp"e- 2 0$ess. B$t it1s 3asica""& a s&stem t*at1s 3$i"t on tr$st networks 3etween peop"e and it1s a wa& to convert c$rrencies and e6c*an0e credit peer)to)peer. ABL: 4i0*t- and o, co$rse- a"" t*ose t*in0s &o$ sa& 3asica""& trans"ate to its de3t transmission network. '*ere essentia""& &o$1re not. And t*is is w*& &o$ can send do""ars t*ro$0* it so ,ast. A0ain- &o$ can send do""ars as ,ast as &o$ can send 3itcoin- 3eca$se &o$1re not rea""& sendin0 t*e do""ars. Yo$1re trans,errin0 a de3t ,rom somet*in0 t*at &o$ own and &o$1re app"&in0 it to some3od& e"se. +%: And 2 t*ink w*en &o$ "ook at 4ipp"e it1s an ama9in0 iterative step on o$r c$rrent 3ankin0E,inancia" s&stem. ABL: /*is is- t*is is important. +%: And 2 "ook at it- and 21m "ike- 2 know ,ive &ears ,rom now- or t*ree &ears ,rom now w*en (on0ress is 0onna start "ookin0 at t*is space- t*e&1re 0onna 3e "ike- Q'e"" w*& can1t &o$ 3e "ike &o$r 3rot*er8 4ipp"e1s a3"e to do it *ow come &o$ 0$&s can1t do it8 (1mon 3itcoin- 0et wit* it.Q !o- 2 t*ink t*at ripp"e is a 0reat transitor&- &o$ know- transition into Bitcoin. !%: B$t t*at too"- t*e de3t trans,er network- e6ists o$tside o, t*e cr&ptoc$rrenc& 4ipp"es. /*e cr&ptoc$rrenc& is somew*at simi"ar to 3itcoin. Yo$ know- ri0*t8 And t*at1s w*at &o$ were ta"kin0 a3o$t 3e,ore w*en &o$ said t*ere1s a red ,"a0 3eca$se t*e& pre)mined S4P and t*en were 0ivin0 t*em awa&- is t*at ri0*t8 +%: Yea*. !%: !o- &ea*- 0o on- contin$e wit* t*at. +%: !o- 2 mean- t*ere are a co$p"e o, red ,"a0s w*en &o$ are "ookin0 at cr&ptoc$rrencies t*at 5$st 0et started and one o, t*em is: *as t*e owner pre)

mined it8 And i, &o$ "ook at t*e distri3$tion o, 4ipp"e t*at are in e6istence. Like <= peop"e own a si0ni,icant portion o, t*e 4ipp"e. ABL: /*e& pre)mined a"" o, t*em- didn1t t*e&8 +%: Yea*. 2t1s ;==L pre)mined. ABL: B$t it1s a "itt"e 3it mis)"eadin0 3eca$se in t*e 4ipp"e network- &o$1re not rea""&- it1s not "ike 21m 0onna send ?= ripp"es to &o$ and t*en &o$1re 0onna cas* t*e ripp"es. 2t1s more "ike 4ipp"es are stamps- w*ere it1s "ike an anti)spam mec*anism more t*an it is a va"$e trans,er mec*anic. +%: B$t 2 remem3er readin0 somew*ere t*at i, &o$ "ooked at t*e c$rrent market price o, a 4ipp"e and t*en &o$ m$"tip"ied it 3& t*e ;==)3i""ion 4ipp"es t*e& *ave or w*atever it is- t*at it was e7$a" to t*e va"$e o, t*e market cap o, t*e 3itcoin network. ABL: !o- t*e& 0ave t*emse"ves an impressive pre)market eva"$ation. +%: Yea* ("a$0*s). !o- 2 don1t know *ow t*at works- 3$t it kind o, "ooks "ike t*e&1re a3"e to print mone& in m& opinion. CBreakD ABL: Yo$1re "istenin0 to Let.s /a"k Bitcoin- t*e premier a$diocast providin0 news and insi0*ts t*at cover t*e rapid"& evo"vin0 wor"d o, di0ita" mone&. :$r twice)week"& s*ow inc"$de ana"&sis o, "ate 3reakin0 news- $pdates on ke&- tec*nica"- 3$siness- and re0$"ator& iss$es- and in)dept* interviews wit* t*e ke& peop"e drivin0 t*e new di0ita" econom&. Let.s /a"k Bitcoin o,,ers sponsors an attractive wa& to reac* a tar0eted and savv& a$dience. For more in,ormation emai" sponsors at Let.s /a"k Bitcoin.com. %ore t*an 3==-=== $sers and co$ntin0 tr$st 3"ockc*ain.in,o. 2t1s a 3itcoin wa""et service and a wea"t* o, 3itcoin in,ormation- and is comp"ete"& ,ree to $se. 'it* t*e B"ockc*ain.in,o wa""et- &o$1"" 0et t*e convenience o, a we3 wa""et- and t*e sec$rit& o, a desktop c"ient. B"ockc*ain.in,o is a"so a 3"ock e6p"orer. Yo$ can $se it to see Bitcoin transactions in rea" time- c*eck t*e 3a"ance o, an& Bitcoin address- and do man& *and& Bitcoin c*arts- a"" ,or ,ree. !ee w*at t*e& *ave to o,,er toda& at B"ockc*ain.in,o.

ABL: 2 t*ink t*at w*at &o$ said t*ere a3o$t 4ipp"e 3ein0 an iterative step is rea""& important- 3eca$se t*at1s t*e t*in0. 2s t*at- i, 4ipp"e *ad come o$t ) and to a certain de0ree- 2 t*ink t*is e6tends to open transactions- too3eca$se it a"so is a de3t transition mec*anism 3eca$se. Yo$ can1t ) Bitcoin and cr&ptoc$rrencies are so ,"$id 3eca$se t*e& don1t e6ist in rea" "i,e. !o w*en &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t assets t*at *ave rea" "i,e presence &o$ simp"& can1t cram t*ose down and s*ove t*em t*ro$0* an 2nternet connection (!%: /*ro$0* t*e t$3es...). !o- it *as to 3e a de3t transition mec*anism in order to do t*at. B$t t*e t*in0 is t*at- wit* Bitcoin and wit* cr&ptoc$rrencies- &o$ don1t need to do t*at at a"". 2t1s $nnecessar&. And especia""& w*en we move to a more di0ita" econom& w*ere t*e need to do t*at at a"" 0oes awa&- 3asica""&. !o &o$ know- a0ain- it1s one o, t*ose t*in0s w*ere i, t*e 4ipp"e s&stem *ad come o$t 3e,ore Bitcoin- we1d 3e *avin0 a ver& di,,erent conversation now. And now it1d pro3a3"& 3e Let1s /a"k 4ipp"e. Beca$se- 2 mean- and a0aincompared to t*e 3ankin0 s&stem- we *ave now it1s so m$c* more e,,icient compared to cr&pto c$rrencies. 2t1s "ess compe""in0. +%: 2 5$st t*ink t*at i, t*e t*in0 t*at 3itcoin does is ,orce t*e c$rrent 3akin0 paradi0m to move to 4ipp"e and t*en t*e conversation is 4ipp"e vs. Bitcoin. 2 t*ink t*at1s a ,antastic wor"d to "ive in. !%: Yea*- 2 comp"ete"& a0ree. ABL: And &o$ know- t*at1s an interestin0 point- 3eca$se &o$ know t*at certain"& co$"d 3e ) 4ipp"e *as 0otten a "ot o, *i0*)pro,i"e investors. And t*at certain"& co$"d 3e t*e p"a& t*e& *ave in mind is t*at oka&- so &o$1ve 0ot t*ese cr&ptoc$rrencies 3$t t*e&.re kind o, ,"at"& incompati3"e wit* t*e e6istin0 ,inancia" s&stem- so i, we1re 0onna move towards somet*in0 t*at1s more "ike t*at t*en t*is is an intermediar& step t*at we can take t*at we know a"read& comp"ies and can 3e easi"& inte0rated in. And so- t*en we 5$st se"" it essentia""& so,tware as a service to a"" t*ese 3ankin0 instit$tions aro$nd t*e wor"d. Bo31s &o$r $nc"e- &o$ know- we1re t*e de ,acto center o, it a"" a0ain. 2t1s a ver& interestin0 space ,or t*em to operate in ri0*t now- 2 t*ink. +%: 'as t*ere someone ,rom 4ipp"e at t*e con,erence8 ABL: Yes. 21m not s$re i, 2 ta"ked to an&one ,rom 4ipp"e. /*e coin t*in0- t*e open t*in0 ver&- ver& di,,ic$"t. !o man& companies t*ere *ave t*ose in t*e names. 2t1s "ike w*en 2 $sed to work in t*e 0reen space and ever&3od& $sed

to *ave "ike 0reen or 3io or a"" t*ose ot*er nonsense... And it1s "ike- a0ain- t*e ,irst co$p"e companies t*at do it. /*at1s 0reat. And t*en t*e ne6t K== companies t*at do it ) it1s con,$sin0! !%: !o- i, &o$ meet someone new and &o$ ,or0et w*at compan& t*e&1re wit* &o$1re "ike- Q:* &ea*- &o$1re ,rom coin...Q 21m "ike- QYea*- (oinPe0&ea*.Q +%: 2 saw 3 di,,erent acco$ntants w*o *ad a p"a& on 3itcoin acco$ntant in t*e name. And 2 5$st co$"dn1t remem3er t*em 3eca$se t*e& were so simi"ar in t*e name. !%: 2 0ot some peop"e remem3erin0 variations o, Let.s /a"k Bitcoinact$a""&- "ike. !omeone 0oes- Q:*- &ea*. Yo$1re ,rom Bitcoin/a"k.Q And t*en someone 0oes- QYo$1re ,rom Bit/a"kLive.Q. ("a$0*s) Let.s /a"k Bitcoin8 :*rea" 7$ick. '*at1s t*e di,,erence 3etween 4ipp"e and :pen(oin or :pen transactions8 ABL: :pen /ransactions. !o- 4ipp"e is t*e prod$ct o, a compan& ca""ed :pen(oin. And :pen /ransactions is a prod$ct o, a compan& ca""ed %onetas. And we1ve interviewed (*ris :dom 3e,ore- *e 0oes 3& G,e""owtrave"er.H e1s a pro0enitor o, t*at tec*no"o0&. 2 t*ink *e1s more o, a marketer t*an a code 0$&. B$t *e mana0ed to p$t it to0et*er to a point w*ere *e1s rea""& 3een a3"e to attract some attention. 2 know t*at t*e& eit*er *ave 5$st ,$nded or t*e-& are in t*e process o, ,$ndin0 ri0*t now -and are raisin0 a prett& decent amo$nt o, capita" 3eca$se- a0ain ) t*ere1s a "ot o,... &o$ knowa0ain- w*en &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t t*ese s&stems it1s so m$c* easier to comp"& wit* t*ese vario$s de3t trans,er mec*anisms 3eca$se t*e& inte0rate so m$c* 3etter so &o$ know a0ain t*at1s w*ere a "ot o, t*e mone& seems "ike it1s 0oin0. /*at and a"tcoins- too ) t*ere are some a"tcoins t*at are 0ettin0 some traction. !%: 2 ta"ked to a Litecoin deve"oper &esterda&- and t*ere were some Litecoin peop"e t*ere- and t*e& were so coo" and p"easant to ta"k to. And 2 was "ike 2 can1t wait to see w*ere t*e&1re 0oin0. 2 t*ink we1re 0onna *ave an interview wit* 'arren w*o is one o, t*e Litecoin dev1s to ta"k a3o$t t*e new re"ease and w*at t*e&1re 0oin0 to do wit* Litecoin in t*e ,$t$re. And 21m 5$st impressed wit* "ike... t*ere1s more in,rastr$ct$re t*at1s comin0 o$t. Not 5$st wit* Litecoins- 3$t wit* a"" t*ese di,,erent a"tcoins ) a "ot o, t*ese coins are w*ere Bitcoin was a co$p"e o, &ears a0o. And 2 t*ink peop"e see t*at and

ma&3e ,ee" "ike t*e& missed t*e 3oat or w*atever. /*e& 0ot in too "ate and t*e& want to 0et in. 2 t*ink we1re sti"" ver& ear"& in t*e adoption c$rve o, even Bitcoin. B$t it1s temptin0- &o$ see an a"tcoin and it "ooks "ike it *as potentia"- &o$ know- &o$ wanna 0et in on t*e 0ro$nd ,"oor and see w*at it does. ABL: E6act"&- &o$ know t*e m$"tip"ier is 5$st so enormo$s. A0ain- &o$ "ook at 3itcoin- certain"& t*e m$"tip"ier co$"d 3e enormo$s ass$min0 &o$ *ave a w*o"e 3$nc* o, *$ndred do""ars to t*row at 3$&in0 some 3itcoin. B$t wit* t*e a"ts- t*e 3$&)in- &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t pennies. And t*e potentia" is sti"" t*ere ,or t*at price increase. 'e don1t ta"k a3o$t t*e price 3$t ,rom a spec$"ative standpoint- it seems "ike i, &o$ co$"d identi,& t*e ri0*t a"ts t*at act$a""& *ave t*e ri0*t c*aracteristics to 0ive t*e c*ance o, makin0 it 3i0t*at is rea""& w*ere t*e e6ponentia" potentia" is ,or a ver& sma"" investment to convert into a 3i0 one. !%: Yea*- and 2 remem3er one o, o$r ,irst episodes o, Let.s /a"k Bitcoin- 2 want to sa& it was "ike 3 or K- we ta"ked a3o$t a"tcoins and we 0ave a r$ndown o, some o, t*e most pop$"ar ones. 'e""- even now- 5$st a ,ew mont*s "ater- t*ere are *$ndreds o, a"tcoins. And no3od& can keep t*em strai0*t. 2 was ta"kin0 to some3od& &esterda&- and 2 said- Gso- w*at are t*e ot*er !cr&pt)3ased a"tcoins8H And *e said- Go*! /*ere are at "east K= 2 can name o,, t*e top o, m& *ead.H 2 said- GK=8 2 on"& know o, ?!H +%: Y1know- it1s a testament to t*e space t*at 21m kind o, eatin0 m& words. !evera" mont*s a0o- 21d make ,$n o, Litecoin- and now t*e disc$ssion isma&3e 3eca$se o, minin0 centra"i9ation- Bitcoin needs to 3ecome more "ike Litecoin. !o- &o$ know- &o$1re seein0 t*e ,ree market at work- 3eca$se w*en &o$ a""ow peop"e to do w*atever it is t*e& want to do in t*e space- t*e market "eader *as to "earn ,rom t*e trai". !%: 2 t*ink it1s rea""& important to keep an open mind. 2, &o$ "ike t*e concept o, Bitcoin- or i, &o$ 5$st "ike t*e concept o, cr&pto)c$rrenc& in 0enera"- i, &o$ "ike an&t*in0 a3o$t it. 4ea"i9e t*at t*ere1s t*e potentia" ) "ikewe1re sti"" ,i0$rin0 t*is o$t and ma&3e it1s Bitcoin- ma&3e it1s Litecoinma&3e it1s some ot*er coin- or ma&3e it1s 0onna 3e a 3$nc* o, di,,erent coins t*at1s 0onna predominate comin0 $p. ABL: over t*e "ast ? mont*s 21ve rea""& 0one ,rom t*ere can 3e on"& one camp to rea"i9in0 t*at1s pro3a3"& act$a""& not 0oin0 to 3e t*e case. And it1s

3eca$se (3eep) *appens- and st$,, c*an0es- and w*en t*in0s c*an0e. And t*at1s t*e t*in0- is t*at "ike- w*en t*in0s c*an0e it1s 0onna *appen ,ast. !o now w*at 2 *ave kind o, over t*e "ast ,ew weeks come to 3e"ieve is t*at ri0*t now- we1re in essentia""& a 3e"ie, 3$33"e. '*ere ever&3od& "ooks at t*e cr&pto c$rrenc& space. And 3eca$se it1s so new t*e& "ook and t*e& sa&- oka&Bitcoin is t*e one. And t*en t*ere1s a"" t*ese ot*er ones. /*e& don1t matter. And t*e& don1t matter ri0*t now- 3$t it1s 3eca$se peop"e on"& "ook at Bitcoin. '*at1s 0onna *appen is t*e&1re 0onna see some disr$ptive c*an0es comin0 in Bitcoin1s ,$t$re- w*et*er or not t*e deve"opin0 team "ikes it- and 2 t*ink t*at we1re pro3a3"& 0oin0 to wind $p seein0 t*at i""$sion to t*at 3$33"e 0et popped. /*e i""$sion dispe""ed and at t*at point s$dden"& it wi"" 3e a w*o"e new 3a"" 0ame i, &o$ start an a"t. And it."" 3e m$c* more a3o$t t*e merits o, &o$r c$rrenc& rat*er t*an a3o$t w*et*er or not &o$1ve a"read& ac*ieved a network e,,ect. A0ain- 3eca$se t*ere1s t*at potentia" ,or t*e e6ponentia" m$"tip"ier o, ver& sma"" investments to convert into ver& "ar0e ones. !%: /*ere is somet*in0 to 3e said ,or ac*ievin0 t*e network e,,ect- t*o$0*. ABL: (ertain"&. 2t1s no sma"" 3arrier. 2 don1t mean to sa& t*at. +%: Essentia""&- w*at &o$1re sa&in0 is we1re waitin0 ,or Bitcoin to *ave its %t. #o6 event8 ABL: 4i0*t- e6act"&- 3$t &o$ can t*ink a3o$t it "ike t*is. '*en Bitcoin *as its %t. #o6 event instead o, a"" t*e mone& in %t. #o6 3ein0 "ocked down3itcoin is tota""& "i7$id. !o it1s ver&- ver& eas& to 5$st (3eep) s"ip into t*e ne6t one. 2 *ave to edit t*at. 21ve 3een swearin0 ,or t*e "ast co$p"e o, da&s... +%: 2t1s New York- it does it to &o$. ("a$0*) 2 mean ) 3$t &ea*- &o$ *ad a compan& t*at *ad ever&t*in0 0oin0 ,or it. 2t *ad B=)somet*in0 percent o, t*e space- and t*ro$0* a series o, $n,ort$nate events- t*at wo$"d *ave *appened to an&one w*o ) t*e point a3o$t a trai"3"a9er. !%: 2t took a "ot o, $n,ort$nate events- t*o$0*8 2 mean- once it 0ot to t*e critica" point- it was *ard to knock it down o,, t*e pedesta"- ri0*t8 +%: 4i0*t- and 2 mean t*e same co$"d 3e said a3o$t Bitcoin in *indsi0*tpeop"e "ike to ,or0et t*at 3itcoin is =.@ version ri0*t now. 2t is sti"" a 3eta. 2t is a m$"ti)3i""ion do""ar 3eta. And- w*at1s to stop some random error t*at no one *as seen 5$st wreckin0 t*e w*o"e t*in08

ABL: :*- so we s*o$"d ta"k a3o$t t*at. :n t*at note- so we *ad some conversation ,rom some miners- !tep*anie- 2 know t*at &o$ interviewed. 2 *ad some conversations o,, t*e record wit* some peop"e a3o$t t*is kind o, 7$estion. !peci,ica""& a3o$t- we ta"ked a3o$t :PE(- was it8 !%: : E( ABL: :* *eck- o* *eck- t*at was it. !%: :r0ani9ation o, asin0 Power E6porters. ABL: Yea*- t*at1s ri0*t- so some peop"e didn1t $nderstand w*at we were ta"kin0 a3o$t. 2t was kind o, a 5oke t*e : E( was kind o, a 5oke- 3eca$se in order ,or t*at... in case &o$ *aven1t "istened to t*e "ast episode w*ere we ta"ked a3o$t t*is- 3asica""& MN( miner re"eased a statement sa&in0 t*at t*e& were 0oin0 to stop s*ippin0 A!2( $nits ,rom Novem3er t*ro$0* T; o, ?=;K- wit* t*e idea 3ein0 t*at t*is wo$"d protect t*e investment o, t*e peop"e w*o *ave p$rc*ased e7$ipment comin0 3e,ore 3eca$se in T?- t*e&1re 0oin0 to re"ease ) and t*e& co$"d in T; 3$t t*e&1re 0onna *o"d it $nti" T? ) $m- are 0oin0 to re"ease *ardware t*at is orders o, ma0nit$de c*eaper and ,aster t*an w*at peop"e *ave previo$s"& ordered. And so- i, t*e& were to re"ease it at t*e pace o, tec*no"o0&- t*en t*e peop"e w*o were 0ettin0 t*is minin0 *ardware wo$"d 3e a"most instant"& o3so"eted and *ave no opport$nit& to earn t*eir mone& 3ack. And o, co$rse- t*at1s 3ad i, &o$1re a 3$siness t*at tries to *ave c$stomers t*at 3$& &o$r prod$ct. 2, &o$1re iteratin0 so ,ast wit* t*e tec*no"o0& t*at peop"e can1t even *ave a c*ance to make 3ack t*eir investment... +%: A"t*o$0*- 2 wo$"d "ike to sa& in t*is space t*at 2 persona""& t*ink t*at1s a 0reat marketin0 pitc* ,or t*eir compan& 3$t t*at i, &o$ "ook at w*at *appened in t*e past wit* &i,$ o, Ava"on. e *ad said- G*e& "ook- we1re t*e market "eader 5$st 3eca$se 2 *ad no idea t*at ever& sin0"e ot*er compan& wo$"dn1t s*ip.H '*en &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t *ow s$ccess,$" &o$1re 0onna 3e at e6ec$tin0 in t*is space. it1s a space t*at *as a "ot o, peop"e not e6ec$tin0. !o. 2 5$st t*ink t*at i, t*e& co$"d do w*at t*e& sa& t*e&1re 0onna do t*e& s*o$"d 5$st do it- 3eca$se e6ec$tin0 in t*is space is so rare t*at 2 t*ink t*e market needs t*at more t*an it needs someone 3ein0 it1s Batman. /*e protector it ma& not need 3$t it needs... it doesn1t know- 3$t it wants.

ABL: Yo$ know 2 a0ree wit* &o$ t*ere- 3$t t*at1s t*e t*in0. '*en ta"kin0 wit* t*ese 0$&s 2 spoke wit* t*e 0$& ) !am ,rom.. was t*at *is name8 !%: !am. ABL: !am ,rom MN(. And a"so t*ere were one or two ot*er A!2( man$,act$rers w*ose names 2 didn1t catc* in t*is "itt"e conversation we were *avin0. Yo$ know t*at &o$1re 0onna *ave to 0et to0et*er wit* a"" t*e ot*er p"a&ers o$t t*ere and &o$ 0$&s are a"" 0onna *ave to stop s*ippin0!%: Yea*- "ike a carte". ABL: Yea*- e6act"& e6act"&. And *e was "ike- &ea* 2 know. /*en we started ta"kin0 a3o$t *ow- *e started te""in0 me *ow it was 0ood ,or Bitcoin and *ow t*e& were 5$st 0oin0 to 0et to0et*er and t*e&1d ,i0*t ,or t*ree mont*s and t*en t*e&1d 3e "ike- Gok 0$&s- "et1s 0o 3ack and re)work o$r tec*no"o0&. /*en we1"" come 3ack t*ree mont*s "ater. 'e1"" ,i0*t a0ain.H !o- we1"" *ave t*ese on and o,, a0ain re"ease sc*ed$"e t*at1s coordinated t*ro$0*o$t t*e space. And so a0ain- *e ,e"t ) we t*o$0*t it was a 5oke. 'e t*o$0*t it was a marketin0 p"a&. At "east- 2 certain"& did w*en we were ta"kin0 a3o$t it 3e,ore. !peakin0 wit* t*ese 0$&s- t*e& were dead serio$s a3o$t it. /*at is t*eir p"an. 2 mean- do &o$ t*ink t*e& can p$"" it o,,8 !%: :*- 0os*. 2 mean- a "ot o, t*e ot*er companies were sa&in0- G&ea*- 2 t*ink we1"" p"a&. 2 t*ink we1"" do t*at.H ABL: Yea*- +os* ,rom B$tter,"& La3s- &ea* said somet*in0. Basica""&- so 2 was "ike &o$ know- so t*ese 0$&s are 0onna tr& to do t*is- 2 spoke to t*em separate"&. !%: B$t 2 0$ess t*e 7$estion is- is t*ere some ot*er compan& o$t t*ere w*o is 3ein0 comp"ete"& 7$iet- and is tota""& o,, t*e radar is a wi"d card and is 0oin0 to come $p wit* some power,$" A!2( d$rin0 t*at time ,rame. And t*at co$"d t*row a wrenc* in ever&3od&1s work. MN( said t*at i, some3od& does t*at t*e&1re 0onna contin$e to re"ease t*eir devices as 3est t*e& can. ABL: 4i0*t- e6act"&- e6act"&- so t*at1s t*e t*in0- i, t*e carte" ,ai"s- t*en ever&3od& is 5$st ,ree ,or a"" wi"d west a0ain- ever&3od& re"eases as ,ast as t*e& can. And o, co$rse- t*en t*e 7$estion 3ecomes w*at1s t*e 3a"ance 3etween re"easin0 so t*at &o$1re t*e ,irst one o$t and &o$1re t*e ,irst. Beca$se ot*erw) i, &o$1re t*e "ast man o$t t*e door- t*en c*ances are prett&

0ood- peop"e w*o are e6cited a3o$t 3$&in0 t*at especia""& wit* as ,ast as t*e tec* is movin0 are not 0oin0 to *ave an& reason to 3$& &o$r prod$ct $n"ess t*ere1s a materia" advanta0e. And it doesn1t rea""& seem "ike an&one is 0oin0 o$t o, t*eir wa&. '*at 21ve 3een waitin0 ,or is a tr$"& p"$0)n)p"a& A!2( so"$tion. And as ,ar as 21m concerned- we sti"" *ave &et to see an&t*in0 "ike t*at. +%: Yo$ know- t*e Ava"on at Bit2nstant *as 3een not opera3"e in t*e past co$p"e o, weeks 5$st 3eca$se it 3roke and no one knows *ow to ,i6 it. !ot*e one 3itcoin per da& t*at it co$"d 3e makin0 ,or t*e ,o$ndation... !%: 2s t*at w*& &i,$ is *ere- to ,i6 it8 +%: Yea*- t*at1s w*& *e came 3ack ,rom (*ina. !o- t*e&1re 5$st "ike Ga***t*e& c"ear"& *ave ot*er t*in0s t*at t*e& *ave to dea" wit*.H ABL: 4i0*t- we"" )) +%: /*ese t*in0s are comp"icated. ABL: /*e& are! !%: 21ve seen a pict$re o, t*at t*in0 and it1s ,$nn& 3eca$se "ike &o$ see A!2(s advertised on"ine and it1s "ike a s"eek "itt"e 3"ack 3o6 wit* &o$ know a F!B ca3"e comin0 o,, o, it. /*is t*in0 "ooks "ike... 2 don1t know- it "ooks "ike a printin0 press. 2t1s 3i0- it1s open- it doesn1t *ave a nice case or an&t*in0- 3$t it works. :r at "east it did work $nti" 5$st a co$p"e weeks a0o. B$t- &ea*- t*at was a w*i"e a0o t*at t*e ,irst 3atc* o, Ava"on A!2(s s*ipped- so it1s 3een opera3"e ,or a w*i"e. +%: Yea*- t*e& *ad a 0ood r$n. !%: Yea*- de,inite"&. /*e& were in a 0reat position. B$t !am was sa&in0,rom MN( miner- t*at t*is is act$a""& 0ood ,or 3itcoin. 2t1s not centra"i9in0it1s act$a""& t*at t*e&1re tr&in0 to 0et A!2(s into t*e *ands o, as man& peop"e as possi3"e ) t*e avera0e person- and *e was sa&in0 t*at A!2(s are a rea"it&ever&one1s 0oin0 to 3e *avin0 t*em at some point- and we1re 0onna tr& and 0et t*em into as man& *ands as possi3"e so t*at t*e minin0 power is distri3$ted.

+%: !o- &o$ 0$&s were on one o, w*at 2 wo$"d sa& one o, t*e most interestin0 pane"s. +onat*an and !tep*anie- &o$ 0$&s were 3ot* on t*e Bitcoin U Free !peec*- moderated 3& o$r 0ood ,riend %ark os*tein- ,rom American Banker. !%: Yea*- *e was so coo". 2 0ot to know *im t*e ot*er ni0*t. Yea*- *e was rea""& ,$n to ta"k to. +%: %ark1s t*e man. 21"" te"" &o$ t*at. !%: /*at was a ,$n pane". 'e 0ot a "ot o, positive ,eed3ack on it. 2t was sort o, a nice co$nter)3a"ance to a"" t*e peop"e sa&in0 &ea* we need more re0$"ation. And we were "ike no- GBitcoin is ,ree speec*! G +%: Yea*- we"" 2 t*ink an& pane" t*at in K< min$tes ta"ks a3o$t prostit$tiondr$0s- and 0$ns is doin0 t*e ri0*t t*in0 to 3itcoin. !%: 'e"" Adam 0ot some a$dio o, it- so 2 t*ink &o$1"" 3e a3"e to *ear t*at prett& soon. ABL: Yea*- &ea*- &ea*- it t$rns o$t t*e& weren1t ,i"min0 an& o, t*e ta"ks t*ere. !o 2 took t*e K%- t*at1s w*at we1re recordin0 on ri0*t now- and 2 0ot a direct ,eed o$t o, t*e 3oard. And t*en- o, co$rse- ,or a3o$t *a", o, t*em- 2 ,or0ot to press t*e 3$tton twice. Yo$ *ad to press t*e 3$tton twice on t*is t*in0- ot*erwise it doesn1t work. And 2 was r$nnin0 aro$nd t*e entire time3$t 2 on"& ca$0*t ma&3e 3 or K o, t*e ta"ks. B$t t*e ones t*at we did 0et we are 0oin0 to 3e re"easin0. !%: /*at1s 0reat- &ea*. 21m rea""& 0"ad &o$ did t*at. 2 wasn1t e6pectin0 t*em not to 3e ,i"min0. (ABL: 2 was s*ocked!) B$t ma&3e- &ea*- ma&3e t*e ne6t event t*e& wi"". ABL: 'e""- w*at 2) so a0ain- so t*is event was rea""& coo". 2 act$a""& t*o$0*t t*e event was prett& interestin0- p$t on prett& we"". 2t was a "itt"e 3it more e6pensive t*an 2 wo$"d *ave "iked. 2 know some peop"e co$"dn1t attend 3eca$se t*e cost was simp"& prett& *i0* re"ative to t*e ) &o$ know- t*e !an +ose con,erence was "ike N;@= ,or a two da& event. /*is one i, &o$ 0ot t*e ear"& 3ird price it was N?BB. 2, &o$ $sed o$r ?=L co$pon- it1s "ess t*an t*at. !%: For one da&.

ABL: For one da&. And at t*e door- it was N<BB. +%: 'ow. !%: 4ea""&8 2t was packed- t*o$0*. ABL: Yea*. 2t was packed. 2t was packed. And a0ain- over time peop"e more dri,ted o$t o, t*e ta"ks and more into t*e networkin0 area- 2 know t*at1s w*at *appened wit* 3ot* &o$ and 2. +%: B$t t*e t*in0 a3o$t t*ese con,erences is it kind o, is a3o$t t*e price t*at t*e& c*ar0e 5$st 3eca$se t*e price is an indicator o, *ow 3ad &o$ want it. ABL: 'e""- it determines t*e t&pe o, a$dience t*at &o$ 0et. +%: /*at1s w*at 21m sa&in0- so &o$ know t*at t*e ot*er person wanted it 3ad eno$0* to eit*er scam t*eir wa& into t*e con,erence as 2 *appened to *ave done or to act$a""& *ave paid t*e ,ee. !%: 2t1s not scammin0. 'e 0ave t*em somet*in0 o, va"$e. +%: /r$e. /*at1s tr$e. !%: !o- &ea*- 3ack to t*e pane". !o 2 t*o$0*t it was rea""& coo" 3eca$se we 0ot to ta"k a3o$t 'iki"eaks and some o, t*e potentia" Bitcoin *as to *e"p or0ani9ations t*at mi0*t 3e mar0ina"i9ed. And t*e idea o, Bitcoin ne$tra"it&w*ic* is somet*in0 2 know is rea""& interestin0 to Andreas- so 21m c$rio$s to *ear *is t*o$0*ts a3o$t t*at w*en *e *ears t*e pane". B$t t*e idea o, ne$tra"it& 3ein0 ) &o$ know- i, &o$ *ave a tec*no"o0& "ike Bitcoin t*at an&3od& can $se- t*at1s 5$st it! An&3od& can $se it- ri0*t8 !o- some peop"et*e&1re 0onna 3e peop"e &o$ don1t "ike- t*at $se it. And t*e&1re 0onna $se it ,or t*in0s t*at &o$ don1t "ike. B$t t*ere are a"so 0onna 3e peop"e w*o are 0reat w*o $se it- and w*o $se it ,or t*in0s t*at &o$ do "ike. And &o$ can1t 0et rid o, t*e so ca""ed 3ad peop"e wit*o$t 0ettin0 rid o, ever&3od&1s privac& and ,reedom. !o... ABL: 4i0*t- t*is is t*e t*eme t*at comes $p over- and over- and over a0ain. And it was ta"ked a3o$t in &o$r pane" prett& e6tensive"&. /*e idea 3ein0 t*at i, t*e point is to protect $s ,rom crime- and to protect t*e wor"d ,rom certain t&pes o, t*in0s- "ike terrorism- *$man tra,,ickin0- and t*in0s "ike t*at- t*en t*at1s a"" we"" and 0ood- and t*at1s a no3"e 0oa". B$t !tep*anie- &o$ *ad a

0reat point. Yo$ said it1s a"" a3o$t di,,erentiatin0 t*e transaction ,rom t*e act$a" crime. And t*e di,,erentiatin0 ,actor t*ere is t*at a crime *as a victim w*ereas a ,inancia" transaction *as a recipient. /*at mi0*t 3e somet*in0 t*at ena3"es t*e crime. B$t it1s t*e crime) !%: :*- p"ease- victimi9e me 3& sendin0 me mone&. ABL: B$t it1s a"" a3o$t esta3"is*in0 t*at *arm is act$a""& done- not t*at some3od& paid ,or somet*in0 t*at mi0*t *ave potentia""& ca$sed *arm down t*e road. Beca$se once &o$ start doin0 t*at it 0ives &o$ t*e rationa"e to start "istenin0 to ever&3od& to start trackin0 ever&t*in0. And t*at mi0*t make sense in some sort o, weird GA"ice 2n 'onder"and-H G/*ro$0* t*e Lookin0 #"assH kind o, wor"d- 3$t 2 t*ink in t*e wor"d we "ive in- most peop"e wo$"d a0ree t*at i, BB.BBL o, peop"e aren1t doin0 st$,, "ike t*at. And t*at sma"" percenta0e is ) it pro3a3"& doesn1t make sense to inconvenience and essentia""& remove t*e privac& o, t*at BB.BBL t*at aren1t doin0 t*ose 3ad t*in0s 5$st to tr& and stop or at "east detect. Beca$se t*at1s t*e ot*er t*in0- o, co$rse- is t*at we1re not even ta"kin0 a3o$t stoppin0 t*ese t*in0s ,rom *appenin0. 'e1re ta"kin0 a3o$t p$nis*in0 t*em. P$nis*in0 t*em a,ter t*e ,act so 2 mean it makes no sense. E6cept- o, co$rse- in t*is GA"ice 2n 'onder"andH wor"d we "ive in. +%: Yo$ know w*en t*e (E: o, Iiscover& was interviewed and t*e& 0o w*at do &o$ owe &o$r s$ccess to8 e said- Gs*arks and Na9is.H And 2 kind o, ,ee" "ike w*en it comes to 3itcoins- and w*en it comes to sec$rit&- it1s a"wa&s t*e terrorists and t*e pedop*i"es. And t*at1s a"wa&s t*e disc$ssion o, ever&t*in0 a"wa&s comes down to t*e .=;L o, 3ad actors t*at need to dictate t*e rest o, t*e BB.BBL o, t*e market. And it 5$st drives me insane 3eca$se w*en &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t Bitcoin- it1s ) not*in0 e6ists in t*e vac$$m. 2t1s a"wa&s in Gcompared to w*at8H And w*en t*e 0ent"eman asked t*at 7$estion o,.. !%: Yea*- ri0*t- *ow man& cas* transactions are $sed in activities t*at potentia""& *$rt peop"e and do *ave victims and... 2 mean- 2 wo$"d ar0$e t*at 3$&in0 dr$0s ,or persona" cons$mption is a victim"ess crime. +%: 4i0*t. 'e weren1t 0oin0 to win t*at ar0$ment t*ere. !%: 2 don1t know- 2 t*ink some peop"e were s&mpat*etic to $s- especia""& t*e 0$& w*o asked t*at 7$estion. B$t &ea*. '*en &o$1re ta"kin0 a3o$t t*in0s t*at act$a""& are crimes- t*at act$a""& *ave a victim- t*at are ca$sin0 *arm to

peop"e. :rders o, ma0nit$de more o, t*ose are done in cas* or are done t*ro$0* t*e "e0ac& 3ankin0 s&stem. 2 mean- 2 t*ink 2 3ro$0*t $p t*e point on t*e pane" t*at dr$0 dea"ers- "oan s*arks- t*e& *ave 3ank acco$nts. 4i0*t8 ABL: And &o$ know- A""en !a,onte- o* 0os*- 21m pro3a3"& misprono$ncin0 t*e name. !a,a*i8 (!%: A"an !a,a*i.) :k- &ea*- $m- ,rom VipVap. Yo$ know- *e1s an 2ranian- and *as 3een "ivin0 in t*is co$ntr& ,or a "on0 time. And one o, t*e t*in0s t*at *e ta"ked a3o$t was *ow ri0*t now &o$ can 0o into an& store and 3$&- essentia""&- N<== o, ,ree paid Oisa cards or prepaid de3it cards and t*ere1s no MY( processors- no identit& process w*atsoever. Yo$ can 0o in and &o$ can 3$& a s*oe3o6 ,$"" and t*e& are 5$st as 0ood as cas*... !%: /ake 1em across t*e 3order. ABL: E6act"&. !o- idea *ere is t*at on t*e 2nternet it1s di,,erent. 2 mean- &o$ t*ink a3o$t it- and it1s not di,,erent. 2t1s not di,,erent at a""- t*ere1s not*in0 di,,erent a3o$t it. +%: 'e""- 2 mean- t*e 2nternet.s di,,erent. +$st 3eca$se 0randdad doesn1t know *ow t*e t$3es work...2 mean &o$ "ook at p$nis*ment in terms o, t*e 2nternet- and &o$ 0ra,,iti a p"ace and &o$1"" 0et some comm$nit& service. B$t &o$ IIo! a resta$rant or a we3site (!%: Yo$1re a c&3er)terrorist.) and now &o$ 0et &ears. And it1s a compara3"e act o, writin0 0ra,,iti or takin0 a site down ,or a ,ew min$tes. Especia""& i, t*ere are no dama0es ) i, it1s a non) commerce site. And it1s 5$st t*e prosec$tions o, t*in0s t*at are comp$ter re"ated are... !%: /*at1s w*&.. ok- so it so$nds "ike w*at &o$1re sa&in0- 3asica""&- is t*at t*e re0$"ations or t*e "e0a" s&stem *asn1t ca$0*t $p wit* t*e ,act t*at we *ave t*e 2nternet and t*ere are ana"o0ies to "ike rea" wor"d p*&sica" t*in0s t*at *appen in t*e wor"d inc"$din0 so)ca""ed crimes and st$,, "ike t*at. And so- w*at 2 wonder is- t*ere m$st *ave 3een peop"e... and peop"e compare Bitcoin to t*e 2nternet in ;BB? ) Bitcoin ri0*t now. !o- t*ere m$st *ave 3een peop"e in t*e ear"& da&s o, t*e 2nternet w*o were tr&in0 to ed$cate t*e "e0is"ators and were tr&in0 to te"" t*e 0overnment t*is is w*at t*e 2nternet does and *ere1s *ow &o$ can re0$"ate it in a wa& t*at makes it ,riend"& to $sand st$,, "ike t*at. /*ere *ad to *ave 3een peop"e tr&in0 to do t*at 3$t it sti"" *asn1t ca$0*t $p. 2 mean- ?= &ears "ater we sti"" don1t *ave modern "aws t*at

$nderstand t*e 2nternet in a wa&. 2t1s sti"" sort o, 3ack in t*e.. comparin0 it to p*ones and ,a6es and t*in0s "ike t*at. +%: Mevin %itnik *as an ama9in0 a$to)3io0rap*&. And in it *e writes a3o$t *ow *e wo$"d *ack a"" o, t*ese esta3"is*ments 3$t *e wasn1t doin0 an&t*in0 i""e0a" 3eca$se t*ere were no "aws on t*e 3ooks on it. !o- t*e& were "ikeGa"ri0*t we."" "et &a 0o t*is time.H And t*at was 5$st an ama9in0 time to e6perience and w*ere t*e 2nternet was so new t*at t*ere were no "aws on it 5$st "ike 3itcoin is ri0*t now. ABL: !o w*at1s t*e A=)second 3io0rap*& as &o$ know it on Mevin %itnik ,or t*ose w*o don1t know8 +%: !o it1s ca""ed a #*ost in t*e %ac*ine. And essentia""& it1s w*at ta$0*t me t*at Mevin %itnik is c*aotic ne$tra". Beca$se *e *ad t*e power to take down 3i""ion do""ar esta3"is*ments- and *e co$"d *ave 3een t*e +$"ian Assan0e a *$ndred times over- 3$t 5$st wanted to do it so t*at *e co$"d 3e a p*one p*reak and 5$st "ike prank ca"" peop"e. e once 0ot c$t o,, in tra,,ic and 0ot t*e 0$&1s "icense p"ate n$m3er- 0ot *is ce"" p*one n$m3er- ca""ed *im a ,ew min$tes "ater and t*en said- Gi, &o$1re ever on t*e road a0ain 2 wi"" take &o$r "icense awa& ,rom &o$.H /*at1s t*e power t*at *e *ad. And *e didn1t $se it ,or 0ood- *e didn1t $se it ,or evi"- *e $sed it ,or Mevin %itnik. ABL: e $sed it ,or Mevin %itnik. (*aotic ne$tra". +%: (*aotic ne$tra". B$t it1s a ,antastic 3ook. /*at and G'e Are Anon&mo$sH kind o, rea""& 0ive &o$ a 0ood $nderstandin0 o, w*at it1s "ike in t*e *acker space- especia""& w*en it comes to dea"in0 wit* t*e "aw. !%: Yea*. 2 0$ess t*e point on t*at was t*at i, we don1t *ave 2nternet re0$"ations t*at aren1t modern and ca$0*t $p wit* t*e times so)ca""ed. '*at makes peop"e t*ink w*o are ar0$in0 now t*ink o* we need to re0$"ate Bitcoin8 '*at makes peop"e t*ink t*at t*e&1re 0onna pass "aws t*at are modern and w*at t*ese peop"e want ,or Bitcoin8 +%: B$t 2 don1t t*ink it1s a3o$t t*at w*en it comes to t*e re0$"ation. 2 "ook at re0$"ation as a t*in0 t*at1s needed 3eca$se w*en 3$sinesses need investment- w*en 3$sinesses need a 3ank acco$nt- t*ere needs to 3e some risk miti0ation t*ere and &o$ can1t invest in an $nknown $nknown. And $nti" t*ere.s some precedent set in t*e "e0a" space- Bitcoin 3$sinesses are so to6ic

t*at 3anks don1t even want to 0ive &o$ an acco$nt. /*ere was an entreprene$rs*ip... !%: 2t1s oka&- &o$ don1t need an acco$nt wit* 3itcoin. ABL: !ometimes &o$ do. +%: 4i0*t. /*ere was a 3$siness- t*ere was an entreprene$rs*ip pitc* contest ear"ier t*is mont* and t*e woman w*o won- won 3eca$se s*e *ad 3 separate 3ank acco$nts in 3 separate p"aces t*at 0ave *er an acco$nt. ABL: !o- an&wa&s- we1re 5$st a3o$t o$t o, time *ere. #$&s- t*is *as 3een 0reat. +onat*an- &o$ did rea" we"". +%: /*ank &o$- it was a p"eas$re. ABL: /*is is 0ood. !%: Yea*- t*is was ,$n. ABL: !o- &ea*- t*is was a ,$n con,erence- so t*ere1s anot*er one. !o 2 know &o$1ve 3een invited to speak at t*e one in Las Oe0as t*at1s *appenin0 in Iecem3er- &ea*8 +%: Yea*- t*at1"" 3e a "ot o, ,$n. ABL: Yea*- it so$nds "ike t*e&1re 0oin0 to *ave a "ot o, t*e same speakers. 21ve a"so 3een invited 3ack. !%: 2nvited 3ack8 ABL: /*e&1re doin0 anot*er event. /*e&1re doin0 anot*er one o, t*ese events in Iecem3er. Yea*- %ediaBistro- t*e same compan& t*at p$t t*is on. +%: A"t*o$0* it1"" 3e in an even ,$nner conte6t. 2t1s t*e socia" 0amin0 and 0am3"in0 con,erence. ABL: 'e"" m& $nderstandin0 is act$a""& t*at t*ere are two 0oin0 on at t*e same time- t*e Bitcoin one and t*e socia" 0amin0 one. +%: !o- it is t*e socia" 0amin0 and 0am3"in0 con,erence and t*e& *ave m$"tip"e tracks. And *e is 0oin0 to add a Bitcoin track to t*at con,erence.

!o- *e rea""& wants to 0et t*at Eric Oor*ees on t*at pane". !o- i, an&one *as a 0am3"in0 compan& and t*e& wis* to *ave a p"ace to promote it 2 wo$"d certain"& ta"k to %ediaBistro ri0*t now. ABL: !o- 0$&s- once a0ain- t*anks a0ain- t*ank &o$ ,or 5oinin0 me t*is was episode 3= Cproo,reader1s note: t*is is "isted on L/B as episode 33D- 2 0$ess t*at1s anot*er mi"estone we don1t rea""& ce"e3rate mi"estones 3eca$se t*e& come 3& so ,ast. 2 don1t know- we *ad 3acon toda&- so ) +%: An& time &o$ *ave 3acon- it1s a ce"e3ration. ABL: ("a$0*s) Fair eno$0*. A"ri0*t- 0$&s. 'e1"" see &o$ ne6t time on anot*er episode o, Let.s /a"k Bitcoin. /*anks ,or "istenin0 to t*is portion o, o$r specia" Let.s /a"k Bitcoin con,erence covera0e. Bi0 t*anks to %ediaBistro ,or p$ttin0 on a wonder,$" even at 2nside Bitcoins. !ta& t$ned ,or more to come over t*e co$rse o, A$0$st. 2, &o$ *ave an& comments or 7$estions ,or me direct"&- &o$ can emai" AdamP"etsta"k3itcoin.com. 2, &o$ *ave 7$estions- comments- or s$00estions directed at t*e s*ow 3road"&- p"ease visit Let.s /a"k Bitcoin.comEreddit. !ee &a ne6t time! (m$sic)