Transcription of Episode 10 A Brave, New World

Participants: Adam B. Levine (A.L.) Host Andreas M. Antonopoulos (A.A.) Co-host Stephanie Murph (S.M.) Co-host Andreas Petersson (A.P.) - Bitcoinupdate.com !ustice (!) Listener" #peanut $aller %& spea's (or ver short time& appears at )*:+,

Adam B. Levine: Hello ever -od & Adam B. Levine here. . /anna /elcome ou to this special episode o( Let0s 1al' Bitcoin. 2ecorded at the ver end o( the con(erence& Stephanie Murph and . /ere 3oined (or this late-ni$ht roundup Andreas Petersson o( -itcoinupdate.com. .n this episode &/e discuss our (avourite thin$s& our thou$hts& our vie/s& and our hopes. . hope ou en3o this episode as much as /e en3o ed ma'in$ it. Stephanie Murph : 4otta have the hat /hen ou /rap up the part 5 ABL: 6ell& .0m tr in$ to portra this anachronistic vi-e /here .0ve $ot the suspenders $oin$ on... SM: . noticed that5 . li'e that loo'5 ABL: . al/a s /ear suspenders" it0s -ecause . have this idea that 3ournalism is this dead art (rom a past a$e& and i( ou can replicate the vi-e& ou can -rin$ it -ac'. SM: 7ou do& and ou0ve $ot our -ad$e on our shirt 3ust li'e an old-school- ou loo' li'e ou stepped out o( the 89:;s. AP: 7eah& it0s cra< ... $reat... ABL: Here /e $o. Here /e $o a$ain one last time. (With reference to the disorder, 'starting over') SM: .s Andreas Antonopoulos comin$= ABL: >o& he0s not& he0sSM: ?@& /ell /e have an Andreas5 .t0s Adam and Stephanie and Andreas not the Andreas that ou0re used to5

ABL: 6e0re 3oined - Andreas Petersson (rom the Bitcoin 2eport. AP: Actuall & it0s 1he Bitcoin Apdate. 1he-itcoinupdate.com. ABL: 1he-itcoinupdate.com& /hich is the /orld0s onl & and -est& 4ermanlan$ua$e Bitcoin-speci(ic podcast& and ou $u s are /ee'l & ri$ht= AP: BCactl & es& /e do record /ee'l as (ar as it0s possi-le& and so (ar /e0ve made it /ee'l . 6e started out as a ver small podcast as a se$ment in an open-source podcast& /here there is a lot o( -eer -ein$ consumed. People li'e me 3ust met on the street and tal'ed a-out open-source& and the topic al/a s circled around ou can $uess the Bitcoin. So& it /as ta'in$ a hu$e share in this podcast& so /e decided to ma'e a se$ment dedicated to that& spin it o((& and . thin' that0s -een a $ood success so (ar. ABL: 6ell& . don0t spea' 4erman& -ut . hear $ood thin$s. .( ou $u s start doin$ transcripts& .0ll -e a-le to $ive ou more (eed-ac' on our content& -ut as it stands ri$ht no/& . $uess /e should pro-a-l intro ourselves ri$ht no/. .t0s a-out& /hat& ten o0 cloc' at ni$ht on Sunda & the last da o( the Bitcoin (estival or the Bitcoin con(erence :;8+& and /e are all dead eChausted. AP: So /e are (eelin$ ri$ht -e(ore the han$over= .s that correct= SM: . thin' this is the han$over... AP: 7ou have to sleep to have a han$over5 ABL: So& this /as a Hell o( a thin$& /asn0t it= . 'no/ that . had prett hi$h eCpectations $oin$ into it& -ecause . /as thin'in$ that this is somethin$ that0s comin$ the time is ri$ht& there0s a lot o( people comin$ in (rom all over the /orld -ut it 3ust reall -le/ me a/a & . $otta sa . Andreas so ou /ere here -oth as a - . /ant to sa #vendor&% -ut that0s the /ron$ /ord ou /ere here displa in$ (or M celium& /hich /as reall one o( the most interestin$ pro3ects SM: He /as one o( the -ooth -a-es. >o& 3ust 'iddin$5 AP: 7eah& /e had nice -ooth -a-es& and /e /ere the main sponsors o( this con(erence and /e tried to present our plat(orm to the $eneral audience and $et some (eed-ac' on it& so our main product /ill -e the Bitcoincard. At -itcoincard.or$& ou can see an inspirational video that0s sort o( a vision o( /hat is $oin$ to come" o( course& the (irst iteration /e are $oin$ to sho/ is $oin$ to -e a little -it& let0s sa & do/n to BarthSM: 6hat are the other products= . /as onl a/are o( the Bitcoincard. AP: 7eah& so the Bitcoincard is the main product& and to support it /e /ill create a /hole -unch o( additional products that ou can use /ith it" so the M celium /allet /ill -e on the Pla Store& hope(ull ver soon& actuall & and /e /ill have solutions (or merchants to use Bitcoin in a ver eas /a & so ou can sell our products (or -itcoin ver easil & and ou don0t have a currenc ris'& and ou0d

have several con(irmations& and /e $uarantee that ou0ll $et the mone -ut that0s a little -it (ar out in the (uture& so ou can0t $et that ri$ht no/. 1he /allet /ill -e& pro-a-l & the (irst thin$ that /ill -e availa-le (or M celium. ABL: So /e0re $onna have AleC - the visionar -ehind that product on as soon as he $ets -ac' to Mosco/. . spent m entire Dda E esterda -asicall -oo'in$ our neCt (our /ee's0 /orth o( $uests& and SM: 6o/& hi$h (ive5 Loo' at ou5 ABL: 6ell& Stephanie& . mean 4od& ou recorded li'e (i(teen intervie/s... SM: ?h& no& it0s more li'e thirt at this point5 6e0re $onna have content (or months& i( /e /ant it. 6e mi$ht have to release a /hole podcast that0s 3ust intervie/s& or somethin$ li'e that. A.L..: 6ell a$ain& the -onus content thin$ 3ust has to happen& -ecause there0s so much content comin$ out o( this. 6e haven0t reall tal'ed a-out speci(ics& -esides the M celium card& -ut the people /ho are presentin$ ideas here one o( the $u s /ho $ave a presentation that . reall & reall li'ed his name is !ohn Li$ht& /e0re $onna have him on the sho/ his concept is& he0s reall (ocused on cloud identit mana$ement& /ith the idea that Face-oo' and these other plat(orms are essentiall data silos that ta'e our data and turn the customer into the product. . thin' that0s 'ind o( o-vious i( ou loo' at the s stem and sa #?@& /ell& ho/ are the ma'in$ mone =% - /ell& o-viousl & that0s ho/ it is. So his idea /ith this tal' on personal clouds is to (unctionall ta'e that concept o( #here0s our identit & here0s all this data a-out ou that $oes in the cloud% - it0s all encr pted& and ou have complete control over /ho $ets to see /hat and ou essentiall open channels to various people& and it0s almost li'e /hen ou #(riend% some-od in this s stem& ou0re si$nin$ a contract /ith them& sa in$ #.0d li'e to share this in(ormation /ith ou%& and ou can set reall rich parameters on it& too& so ma -e some people ou onl /ant to -e a-le to see particular in(ormation (rom 9:;; G:;; in the da it $ives ou complete $ranular control to -e a-le to do that. AP: .sn0t that eCactl the idea -ehind Hiaspora= ABL: 7es& . thin' that /as the ideaSM: 4oo$leI has some o( those (eatures too& -ut not reall all... ABL: 4oo$leI& eah so the other thin$ that0s reall interestin$ a-out this is that 4oo$leI has this concept& ri$ht& eCcept that 4oo$le does o/n all our data& so there0s that part. But the other part is that ou have to -e oursel(& ri$ht= So ou0re Stephanie Murph & no matter /hat it is& no matter /hich #circle% ou0re tal'in$ to& it0s 3ust that di((erent circles see di((erent aspects o( ou /hereas /ith this& ou can actuall maintain multiple identities& and use applicationspeci(ic identities in certain scenarios /here the 0re advanta$eous& so ou can have one that has a real name associated /ith it that is our real name& and it has our medical records in it& and so ou $o to the doctor& and instead o( them

havin$ our medical records (or the rest o( our li(e& instead ou can sa #?@& here are m medical records& and ou can have them (or siC da s& and then a(ter that& the 0re no lon$er reall relevant to ou.% AP: So i( ou are usin$ this as a tool& .0m $uessin$ that0s 'ind o( missin$ the point& -ecause i( ou0re usin$ one tool to mana$e all these identities& the are still lin'ed ph sicall & -ecause the are on one machine to$ether. ABL: 6ell& no& actuall & /e0re $onna have !ohn on the sho/ prett Juic'. He0s actuall local to me& he0s onl a-out (ort miles a/a (rom /here . record" .0m sure he can $o into it in more detail than . can& -ut no& it0s reall ha& no/ .0ve (or$otten /hat ou actuall as'ed me5 AP: .( ou are usin$ all these identities (rom one particular pro$ram& the are actuall ph sicall lin'ed to our computer at the same time& so the 0re not encr pted in separateABL: 1he are encr pted. Bver thin$0s encr pted& and /hat happens is that essentiall ou0ve $ot all our data stored encr pted on our machine& and there0s a -ac'up that lives in the cloud& and that -ac'up s nchroni<es /ith ever thin$ else. So& it0s li'e /hen ou /or' /ith 4oo$le . do a lot o( thin$s /ith 4oo$le Hrive& and /hen . /or' /ith that& it sta s in the cloud" it starts in the cloud& . -uild it in the cloud& it sta s in the cloud& and then . can access it& so . don0t actuall have a local cop most o( the time& /hereas /ith this ou do have a local cop . So& an /a & that /as one o( the interestin$ thin$s that came out o( this. Andreas& /hat /as our (avorite thin$ at the con(erence= AP: . thin' /hat . /as most impressed /ith /as the amount o( ne/ innovation $oin$ on" so ri$ht -e(ore the con(erence& . /as reall pumped& and said #/o/& .0m so eCcited& this is $oin$ to -e .0m loo'in$ (or/ard to this& and this& and this pro3ect% - . li'ed most& actuall & the Lamassu B1C& the Bitcoin A1M. . thin' the have a real practical solution to all these 'ind o( pro-lems. SM: . sa/ those $u s& the live near me in >e/ Hampshire. AP: 7eah& eah& . thin' the have a reall convincin$ stor to -rin$ this to the mar'et& and o( course& on the technical side (or me& practicall & this /as the onl tal' . attended it /as a-out HH /allets& hierarchical deterministic /allets. 1his DisE $oin$ to ma'e Bitcoin reall more usa-le once this /as implemented in the /allet so(t/are& so .0m loo'in$ (or/ard to it. SM: 6hat does that mean= AP: HH /allets -asicall means that ou don0t have to -ac'up our /allet ever time ou send a transaction - -ecause ri$ht no/& i( ou are usin$ Bitcoin-Jt& the /a it /or's is ou have a 'e pool& and that 'e pool $ets depleted i( ou do a lot o( transactions so then our -ac'up $ets invalid& -ecause our ne/ 'e s are not in this -ac'up an more. ABL: So& /hat ou0re sa in$ is& i( . use G; let0s sa the -u((er is G; -

AP: 7eah& eCactl . ABL: ?@& so the -u((er is G;= AP: 1he -u((er is 8;; - de(ault. ABL: 1he -u((er is 8;;. ?@& so i( the -u((er0s 8;;& ou0re sa in$ that -et/een the time /hen . -ac'up m /allet& i( . then $enerate a hundred more addresses& then a(ter that point& those are no lon$er actuall recovera-le unless ou re(resh the -ac'up. AP: 7eah& and ou have to -e a/are that ou are also $eneratin$ addresses /hen sendin$ mone and /hen receivin$ mone & -ecause ou have to $enerate the chan$e addresses. ABL: So& it0s transactions& almost= AP: 7eah& it0s transactions. ABL: ?h& reall & so then there0s onl a -u((er o( one hundred transactions -et/een -ac'ups= AP: 7eah& -ac' and (orth actuall & -ecause ou0re $eneratin$ addresses /hen ou0re receivin$ somethin$& i( ou0re activel doin$ that& -ut ou are automaticall $eneratin$ ne/ addresses /hen ou are receivin$ chan$e. ABL: . thin' . need to re(resh m -ac'up5 AP: 7eah& a-solutel & a-solutel . So Bitcoin-Jt needs re$ular -ac'ups& actuall & all the time. So HH /allets& once that0s implemented& ou can -ac'up 3ust one seed and the /a it /or's is it $enerates ne/ pu-lic 'e s and ne/ private 'e s& and it can actuall do (anc tric's li'e creatin$ a ne/ seed (rom the master seed& that is& (or one department o( a compan & and each department can use its o/n private seed and the CB? o( the compan can use the master seed to spend all departments0 (unds at once. Somethin$ li'e that& so ou can ima$ine that. ABL: 6hat does the HH stand (or= AP: Hierarchical deterministic& so deterministic /allet means ou have a seed and all the 'e s are $enerated (rom that" and hierarchical means that ou can create a tree structure& then $enerate a -unch o( private 'e s and associated pu-lic 'e s. So the most common use 'e s /ill -e #.0m a shop& . /ant to accept -itcoin% - and then . put m master pu-lic 'e into a pu-lic so(t/are that0s runnin$ some/here on the net& that doesn0t need to -e ver secure& -ecause no-od can access our (unds& -ut ou can $enerate a ne/ address (or each customer& (or eCample& /ithout an trou-le& on this remote machine /hich is not ver secure and then ou0re receivin$ the mone and spendin$ them let0s sa & (rom our paper -ac'up& or /hatever. Peter 6uille& the core developer& is /or'in$ on that& and a lot o( pro$rams hard/are vendors also& and hope(ull also the Bitcoincard /ill pic' that up and use it that0s not a promise& -ut . hope -

ABL: Li'e . sa & /e0re tal'in$ ver late at ni$ht& so ta'e ever thin$ at (ace-value here. So Stephanie& ou0re here /ith a ton o( di((erent pro3ects& and ou0ve -een $eneratin$ incredi-le content. 7ou said that ou did thirt intervie/s (SM: eah.) /ho do ou thin' /as our (avourite intervie/= (SM groans) . 'no/& it0s li'e as'in$ ou to pic' our D(avoriteE children /ith the people here. ?@& let0s 3ust do a top three. SM: 7eah& ?@. 4avin . tal'ed to 4avin& that /as reall cool. . sort o( had an #in&% -ecause . 'ne/ him& -ecause he /as (riends ?@& so .0m involved /ith this radio sho/ called Free 1al' Live& /e actuall -roadcasted toni$ht& here (rom the con(erence& and .an and Mar'& the main hosts o( Free 1al' Live& had met 4avin -ac' in :;8;& or somethin$ li'e that& to have lunch /ith him and tal' a-out -itcoins and . thin' he prett much convinced them to $et on -oard& so . 'inda 'ne/ him that /a & and he also lives in the to/n /here . /ent to colle$e& so /e tal'ed a-out that stu(( a little -it& -ut /e also tal'ed a-out a lot o( other stu((. He said he0s mostl a li-ertarian& and that /as cool. . al/a s li'e it /hen . $et people to admit the 0re li-ertarians& -ecause . am. AP: ?n the Bitcoin con(erence& ou 'ind o( have to sa that. . $ot in some heav discussions& actuall & -ecause . /ould not sa .0m this la-el or that la-el& -ut .0m certainl not strai$ht-out li-ertarian. ABL: 6e actuall tal'ed a-out this on Free 1al' Live /hen . /as on (or m -rie( period o( timeSM: .0m not re(errin$ to& li'e& the Li-ertarian part & or an political part & or an thin$ li'e that" 3ust some-od /ho values human (reedom& -asicall . ABL: 7eah& the la-els do $et con(usin$. AP: . thin' la-els are dan$erous. La-els put ou into corners& and limit ou in our ima$ination. SM: But /hat do ou call oursel(& to succinctl descri-e our vie/s= ABL: . $o /ith sociall conservative& and (laughter from S.M. and A.P.) .0m sorr & . $o /ith (iscall conservative and sociall li-eral. SM: (laughing) 1he complete opposite5 ABL: 7eah& eah& it0s ver late. AP: . $o /ith >oam Choms' . ABL: >oam Choms' & ?@& sure& .0ll -u that. (To SM) So that /as num-er one (or ou& do ou have an others= SM: 7eah& ?@& let me thin' /ho else . intervie/ed oh m $od... ABL: Puttin$ ou on the spot& here...

SM: Some o( m intervie/s /ere Juite short - . /ould0ve li'ed more time to tal' to the people& -ut that0s (ine& . $uess . $ot some names. . tal'ed to Mi'e Hearn toda that /as interestin$. He said some even more interestin$ stu((& li'e& o(( the record& . $uess ou can hear the intervie/& . /on0t repeat /hat he said -ut /e had a conversation a-out di((erent uses o( -itcoin (or smart propert & and also some o( the social en$ineerin$ that0s -uilt into -itcoins and some o( the alt coins that /as interestin$ to me. 1hat /as de(initel in m top three and /ho /as the other one= Let0s see. . thin' . have to thin' a-out this a little -it more& that0s it (or no/. ABL: 1hat0s (ine. 6e had a $reat intervie/ see& /hat . did& Stephanie /or'ed throu$h the /hole thin$ m 3o- as the editor-in-chie( is to $enerate content& -ut also& .0m /or'in$ out the schedule& and .0m loo'in$ (or contri-utors& so one o( the reall $reat thin$s a-out -ein$ here (or this time is that there are so man cra< smart people. . mean& the $roup that came here has totall sel(-selected to -e here& and it0s 3ust the amount o( passion that0s in this cro/d is a-solutel unreal. .t0s hum-lin$& -ecause it0s the sort o( thin$ /here . have thro/n m sel( into this& in a ver /hole-hearted /a & and .0ve 'ind o( vie/ed m sel( as this cra< outlier" and it turns out Dit0sE not that cra< & or ma -e that cra< & -ut at least there are other cra< people /ho are $oin$ on the same 3ourne /ith us as /e $o do/n the ra--it hole. SM: .0ve met a lot o( people /ho are thin'in$ that same thin$. . thin' that0s the point o( con(erences& to some eCtent" ou0re out there& /here /e live& in the /orld& and ou (eel 'ind o( alone& -ecause there aren0t tons o( people around ou. 7eah& ma -e ou can $o to meetups and stu((& -ut there aren0t a ton o( people around ou /ho reall share our interest on a deep level and /hen ou $o to a con(erence& it0s li'e a little cit $ets created - almost li'e Burnin$ Man& . $uess ou could sa (or a /ee'end& or ho/ever lon$& and ou0re suddenl amon$ a -unch o( people /ho are real visionaries and real luminaries& and /ho totall share our interest. A lot o( connections. ABL: ?ne o( the reall cool thin$s /as to see all these people /ho are (unctionall c pher-pun's /hich is this concept o( people /ho use cr pto$raph as a /a to do stu(( $ive me a -etter de(inition than that. AP: 6ell& . /ould sa a c pher-pun' is someone /ho -elieves that he can chan$e a societ - usin$ cr pto$raph . ABL: 1hat0s a -etter de(inition. AP: So& essentiall & the use o( cr pto$raph is ver central to that. ABL: Some o( the people here /ho most (all into that cate$or are total cele-rities here& and it0s this cool thin$" ou see the tal's that are reall sparsel populated& the 0re the ones that are tal'in$ a-out the re$ulator no& not the re$ulator & the re$ulator /as actuall ver & ver cro/ded& there0s a lot o( people /ho are reall concerned a-out that -ut some o( the tal's that are a-out more mainstream topics . can0t thin' o( an o(( the top o( m head /ere not that /ell attended& -ut then& on the (lipside o( it& ou0ve $ot people there0s a $u

/ho created e-mone & /ho /as here and spea'in$ and /hen . /as outside durin$ part o( our panel& Stephanie& there /as a $roup o( pro-a-l (i(t or siCt people /ho had 3ust surrounded him& mo--ed him& and it lasted (or& li'e& a hal( hour. 1here /ere people /ith cameras& holdin$ DthemE up" it /as li'e it /as a cele-rit & and it0s li'e& #/o/& this is such a contrar thin$.% 6e0re in this real/orld place& -ut it0s so not the real /orld& /e0ve ta'en it over and it0s 3ust people li'e us. AP: 2e(errin$ to that sel(-selection ou previousl mentioned& . thin' that0s a ver hard path to actuall (ollo/" ou have to 'no/ a lot a-out a num-er o( topics to -e reall enthusiastic a-out Bitcoin& and most people $ive up hal(/a and sa #/ell& that0s DaE cra< .nternet thin$ that the oun$ people% - actuall & it0s not so much the oun$ people& it0s /ell& educated people... ABL: 6ell& it depends on /hat our de(inition o( # oun$% is. 6e /ere tal'in$ a-out this all throu$hout the con(erence& that the a$e $roup that is here that is most impact(ul is pro-a-l the a$e $roup -et/een :G DorE :K and& li'e& +G to ma -e ); on the other end. And then -e ond that& ou certainl have outliers .0m not sa in$ that ever -od /as -et/een those -ut the people /ho are doin$ all the cra<iest stu(( are 'ind o( in that ran$e. . thin' that0s reall & reall interestin$. AP: 7eah& the oun$ people don0t actuall (l ABL: -don0t understand it& all o( itAP: -comin$ to the con(erence is a -i$ hurdle (or man & 3ust $ettin$ in a plane... ABL: For some. 1hat0s true. 1hat0s a $ood point& that0s a $ood point. SM: And do ou thin' there are an DpeopleE /ho didn0t come -ecause the don0t /anna -e pu-lic& essentiall = Almost li'e Satoshi= ABL: 7ou 'no/& . thin' that ma -e Satoshi /as here5 6ho /ould 'no/= 1hat0s /hat . /ould do i( ou0re $onna ma'e somethin$ disruptive li'e this& the pla is: ou ma'e it& ou $et it to the point /here our idea has le$s and it0s $onna /or'& and then ou /al' a/a & thro/ a/a that identit a$ain& comin$ -ac' to the personal cloud concept it0s a-out havin$ application-speci(ic identities& -ecause the realit is& these technolo$ies are dan$erous. And it0s not dan$erous -ecause ou0re $onna cut o(( our (in$er& it0s dan$erous -ecause the 0re disruptive& and -ecause the chan$e the /a that the /orld /or's& and once ou eCtrapolate that out& there are real implications that come alon$& -ecause people /ho have po/er reall don0t li'e $ivin$ it up and an time ou have disruption& ou have shi(ts o( ho/ the po/er is distri-uted. AP: . have a little -it o( suspicion that the real innovative& ne/ uses (or Bitcoin are not essentiall the ones /e0re seein$ on the sur(ace ri$ht no/& -ut rather& real disruptive 1or--ased services& (or eCample .0m not re(errin$ to an particular one& -ecause there are reall ne/ ones comin$ up . thin' that /ill -e an interestin$ space to /atch also virtual $ames that are inte$ratin$ virtual

currencies& that could -e ver interestin$. And those people /ill sho/ up here& so the /ill -uild somethin$ /ithout the error ma -e care (or it& ma -e not. ABL: So& /hile . /as here& /e sa/ at least three documentaries -ein$ shot di((erent $roups. . don0t 'no/ i( an one else has seen it& -ut there0s a documentar a-out competitive Scra--le pla ers called 6ord 6ars that came out a couple ears a$o& has an -od seen this= >o= SM: . am not nerd enou$h (or that& -ut it sounds a/esome. ABL: 6e /ent throu$h a period o( time& m /i(e and . /ho is our en$ineer SM: She0s noddin$5 ABL: - /here /e /ere /atchin$ a lot o( documentaries& -ecause /atchin$ an thin$ else /as a little -it stupid& it seemed at the time a$ain& it0s one o( those thin$s /here the su-3ect almost doesn0t matter. 6hat matters is that the people have the passion& and the have the appreciation o( it& and i( ou $et enou$h o( those people to$ether& then ou can do reall insane thin$s. And a$ain& t in$ it -ac' to Bitcoin . -rin$ this up -ecause the $u /ho made that documentar is no/ ma'in$ a documentar tal'in$ a-out& essentiall & the -an' o( international settlement and all o( the various /a s that it is in(luencin$ - . thin' he said the title is #6ho 6ants 1o Be A 1rillionaire&% or somethin$ li'e that and it0s a-out Bitcoin& and the Bitcoin is the continuit that ties it all to$ether ou 'no/& ties to$ether ho/ these decisions are made on a $lo-al scale. 1hat /as one o( them& there /ere a couple o( others this one called somethin$ a-out the #revolution&% those $u s /ere around a lot 21 /as here& eCtensivel & doin$ intervie/sSM: 7eah& the $ot Andreas Antonopoulos on camera and he said he didn0t pimp the podcast5 ABL: ?h& he didn0t pimp the podcast5 6ell& that0s ?@& the $ot me on& and all . did /as pimp the podcast5 SM: A/esome& ?@& $ood& .0m $lad5 So& there0s a lot o( 1L. ABL: 1here0s a lot o( 1L. AP: And the rise and rise o( Bitcoin that /ill -e interestin$ too. So& there are 4erman $u s doin$ a $reat Bitcoin documentar as /ell. 1he are $oin$ across . thin' the couldn0t attend the con(erence -ecause o( their lac'in$ donations& so ma -e i( ou0re here& ou should $et to the-itcoindocumentar .or$ the are $reat $u s& ou should support them. ABL: 7es& /hat /as the A2L a$ain= AP: . thin' it /as the-itcoindocumentar .or$. ABL: the-itcoindocumentar .or$. ?@& $reat& /e0ll have to chec' that out. Hid ou $u s /atch the 'e note=

SM: >o. AP: >o. SM: . /as at the -ooth that . /as /or'in$ at /ith these non-pro(it or$ani<ations& and it /as pac'ed durin$ the /hole 'e note. . couldn0t $et a/a . ABL: So& . /atched the 'e note& and it /as pain(ul and . understand /h it too' me a /hile to $et it . understand /h the (oundation chose to (eature the 6in'levoss t/ins as the 'e note spea'ers& even thou$h the didn0t deliver a ver $ood speech - an real standard& -ut it0s -ecause the -rin$ to the mainstream press almost a sense o( le$itimac & -ecause (or some reason& havin$ a lot o( mone & re$ardless o( ho/ ou $ot that mone & is a source o( -ein$ #ri$ht% in our particular culture. . don0t a$ree /ith that& and . thin' that& (rom the perspective o( it -ein$ a 'e note speech& it /as a ver poor choice& -ut (rom an optics perspective loo'in$ at it throu$h the lens o( the mainstream media once ou start readin$ the covera$e& . read a stor on C->B1 and some/here else& too and the Juoted ma -e t/o sentences (rom the tal'& -ut it /as all a-out the (act that these people /ere investin$ mone into it. >o/& that -ein$ said& the /a the 0re investin$ mone into it is one o( the ver (e/ /a s that . le$itimatel consider hoardin$ -ecause their /hole strate$ /as to -u -itcoins& stic' them onto (lash drives& and put them into distri-uted -an's0 sa(e deposits around the countr " /hich is $reat and all& -ut it ma'es it impossi-le (or ou to ever spend it& so there0s not even reall the chance o( that happenin$& and . thin' that that0s a little -it dum-. SM: 6ell& on the other hand& it drives the price o( -itcoins up AP: . consider that le$itimate& -ecause ri$ht no/ sure& ou can -u our pi<<a online& ma -e that0s (ine& -ut ou0re not -u in$ a $reat deal o( propert the can certainl tr to invest in Bitcoin -usinesses& and that0s ABL: 6ell& the 0ve done that. AP: 1he 0ll certainl do that. ABL: But a$ain& the have a real advanta$e it0s one o( those thin$s /here -ecause Bitcoin is mone & i( Bitcoin succeeds& an -od /ho holds a lot o( Bitcoin succeeds& so (rom that perspective& . thin' it0s valua-le to them& -ut .0m sa in$ that as a service to as -ein$ DanE actual part o( the communit . (eel li'e it almost isolates ou /hen ou sa #?@& /ell .0ve made m investment& and it0s $oin$ a/a & loc'ed in a loc' -oC& and /e0ll loo' at it in (our ears.% 1hat means that those are out o( circulation - ou0re ri$ht& it drives the price hi$her - -ut it doesn0t help an -od /ho0s tr in$ to -uild the mar'et. SM: 6ell& -ut it 'inda does& -ecause it $ives pu-licit to Bitcoin. . don0t thin' loo'in$ at it (rom the perspective o( #does it help the communit =% is /here the 0re comin$ (rom& -ut that0s (ine& -ecause it0s their mone . 7ou could ar$ue a-out ho/ the $ot that mone the pro-a-l didn0t reall /or' (or it -

ABL: 6ell& the sued some-od (or it& so that0s valua-le in our societ SM: . thin' people reall $ripe a-out that. But ultimatel & i( it0s some-od 0s -itcoins& /hatever the /anna do /ith them" .0m not here to tell them /hat to do. ABL: 6ell& the had to -u the -itcoins (rom some-od & so . $uess /hatever their investment meant actuall /ent -ac' into some-od 0s poc'ets /ho /as holdin$ -itcoins -e(ore. SM: 7eah& and some-od had to a$ree to sell them& so the 0ve named their price and the $ot it that /as a voluntar transaction& so .0m not a-out to $et in the middle o( that& -ut ABL: Fair enou$h. SM: ?ne thin$ . heard a-out their speech /as that the said #it0s time to come to the (eds and tr to $et them to re$ulate Bitcoin%. ABL: 6ell& that /as a -i$ thin$ here& there /ere a lot o( people representin$ the it0s not reall li-ertarian& it0s almost li'e anarcho-capitalist vie/point o( re$ulation& /hich is #$et the Hell out%. SM: 7eah& that0s me. . a$ree. ABL: And then there0s the other camp& that0s li'e #this is $onna happen one /a or another& /ith or /ithout us& so it0s -etter i( /e0re in a conversation than not.% But Stephanie& .0m curious Da-outE /hat ou thin' to a certain eCtent& isn0t participatin$ in the s stem le$itimi<in$= Sa in$ that # es& re$ulators& ou have authorit over this% - is that a positive thin$& or is that a ne$ative thin$& or do ou thin' that it0s SM: ?h& ne$ative - the onl thin$ the could possi-l do to help Bitcoin is to $et out o( it& and . can 'inda understand& or relate& to these companies /ho DhaveE invested a lot into Bitcoin start-up -usinesses& or /hatever& and the 0re uncertain& and the 0re a(raid& -ecause /hat the 0re a(raid o( is that there0s $onna -e some 'ind o( ne/ re$ulation that comes do/n that0s reall $onna hurt their -usiness& that the 0re $onna have no sa over and that suc's /hen ou0ve invested a lot o( time into a start-up. So& . $et /h the /ant it to happen& and the /ant to have a sa in it& and the /ant some clarit a-out /hat0s $onna -e reJuired o( them& -ecause the see it as inevita-le& -ut a$ain& . thin' the 0re missin$ the point that the -est thin$ that the (eds could do is step out o( the /a . And ho/ are the actuall $oin$ to even re$ulate Bitcoin& (unctionall = .t0s one o( those thin$s that 3ust lends itsel( to decentrali<ation. AP: . thin'& the centrali<ed eCchan$es the are de(initel a $ood pla $round (or the re$ulators& and ou should stic' them to their pla $round and leave the rest o( us alone /ho are doin$ use(ul /or'. ABL: .sn0t it almost a lose-lose situation& thou$h& (or those companies= Because . understand /hat ou0re sa in$& -ut then& on the (lipside o( it& let0s sa that the re$ulations do $et solidi(ied& and the 0re $ood& and the loo' li'e it0s $onna -e

permissi-le then doesn0t that mean that the le$ac -an'in$ s stem comes in and sa s #?@& /ell& i( it0s le$al& then sure& /e0re $onna provide this service%& and (ran'l o-selete Bit.nstant& -ecause Bit.nstant or BitPa or reall an o( these thin$s& the 0re reall all /or'around companies -ased on the idea that the le$ac s stem /on0t inter(ace /ith us& so there(ore& /e0re $onna create this s stem /here ou 3ump throu$h all these hoops SM: 6ell& it /ould enrich the entrenched interest& and the -i$ -usinesses& and it /ould impoverish the Bitcoin startups and the small $u s& and a$ain& . thin' these Bitcoin startups /ho are as'in$ (or re$ulation are 'inda missin$ the point that the came a-out and the sprun$ up in an environment that /as totall (ree& and the less (ree it $ets& the more di((icult it0s $oin$ to -e (or ne/ Bitcoin startups to come out& and (or (ran'l technolo$ to push (or/ard& and ne/ technolo$ies to come out. AP: . a$ree& eah& and . thin' that it0s a ver valua-le thin$ to have Bitcoin as a standalone currenc that0s not even reco$ni<ed as a currenc & so it0s 3ust DthatE /e are sendin$ these (unn .nternet to'ens& and on top o( that ou can do all 'inds o( innovative ne/ services& and . thin' that0s reall $oin$ to provide a value (or humanit . .t0s (unn to sa it li'e that. SM: Ho ou /anna tal' a-out other themes at the con(erence& an thin$ li'e that= ABL: 7eah& did ou identi( an = SM: 7eah& . $uess one thin$ that came out to me /as it0s -een a /hile& at least in the AS& since there0s -een a period o( real economic prosperit and . de(initel $ot this sense o(& almost reminiscent o( the dot-com era& and in (act Bitcoin has -een compared this /ee'end to the .nternet in 899:" /e0re at the -leedin$ ed$e o( technolo$ & /e0re the (irst adopters& and /e0re $onna all ma'e -an' out o( this& or -ecome reall success(ul& or -e reall (amous& or /hatever and people /ere part in$ already -ecause o( that& and -asicall eCpectin$ this to happen. So /hen . see that& . share in that 3u-ilation& totall & and . thin' this is hu$e it0s a hu$e deal& o-viousl . .0m also a little -it cautious& -ecause . 'no/ not all o( these -itcoin startups are $onna succeed some startups do (ail ABL: Some startups do (ail& haha. Most startups do (ail. SM: Most startups do (ail& 9;M5 AP: A G;M chance o( eCchan$es (ailin$. ABL: G;M= >o/& that0s a (a'e num-er. 1he cited that num-er& it /as #)+M o( eCchan$es (ail and ta'e mone /ith them%& -ut there0s a :+M mar$in o( error. SM: So it could -e an /here (rom :;-K;M= ABL: BCactl & :;-K;M5 AP: . have some practical eCperience /ith that. A lot o( m mone $ot -lo/n a/a .

ABL: ?h& that0s too -ad& /here /ere ou in= AP: ?h& /ell& 'ind o(& all o( them= . thin' it0s m 3o- to 'no/ the Bitcoin space& . tr out all the thin$s. So . $ot shut do/n - all the thin$s& o( course. >ot all the mone & o( course. 1he most recent one /as Bitcoin:).com that /as run - a 4erman $u & -ut . thin' there is a decent chance that some da . mi$ht $et some o( m (iat mone that /as tied up -ac'. SM: . hope so. AP: 7eah& . hope so too5 SM: 1here0s a lot o( ris' in this space& and /hen ou see the -i$ successes and ou see the -i$ -ooms& it0s eas to (or$et a-out the ris' that0s there& and to 'eep a perspective" it0s eas to $et super-eCcited and sa #oh eah& /e0re $uaranteed to succeed&% -ut that0s not the realit a lot can happen and that0s ?@& -ecause ultimatel /e0re in a process o( $ro/th" /e0re in a process o( (i$urin$ out /hat the mar'et actuall /ants& in terms o( Bitcoin& and /hat 'inds o( ne/ technolo$ies can -e -rou$ht to the (ore and that0s ?@& that0s all the process o( $ro/th. 1here0s a little -it o( creative destruction in there and it0s un(ortunate /hen that happens not-creativel & -ecause o( re$ulators& and that0s /hat /e0ve seen a lot o( the time. But there0s also hac'ers& there0s the(ts" people have to learn thin$s a-out securit /ith -itcoins the hard /a & and that does happen& too. 1hat0s a le$itimate thin$. So& . don0t 'no/& . $uess it0s $reat to have parties /here there are (ree drin's" . love that to happen& it0s $reat to see people /al'in$ around in suits ou 'no/& oun$& attractive $u s& and there0s a lot o( $u s here -ut /e do have to 'eep thin$s in perspective a little -it& too& -ecause /e don0t /ant to -e in a -u--le and not 'no/ it& and no-od has an clue. AP: . thin' /e0re not in a -u--le . thin' the potential is hu$e& /e0re $oin$ to see a lot more. ABL: Are /e tal'in$ a-out a price -u--le& or are /e tal'in$ a-out a realit -u--le= SM: .0m 'inda tal'in$ a-out -oth& . mean& 0cause the price re(lects the realit and the attitude a-out Bitcoin to a certain eCtentABL: >ot here& it doesn0t . didn0t hear one person tal'in$ a-out the price& this entire con(erence. Hid ou= SM: >o& not reall & actuall & eCcept at the Lamassu machineABL: ?h& ri$ht& ri$ht& /here the 0re doin$ eCchan$es. 7eah& o( course& -ut outside o( that& it /asn0t li'e people /ere $oin$ around& $oin$ #oh man& can ou -elieve it0s up to N8:G& this is so (antastic& /e0re all $onna -e rich5% - . mean no& no-od reall cares a-out that& /e0re all tal'in$ a-out the companies that are -ein$ -uilt around it to ma'e it -etter& and to ma'e it easier& and to ma'e it cleaner. SM: 6ell& . $uess /hat . /as re(errin$ to /hen . said #-u--le% /as 3ust the amount o( venture capital mone that0s (lo/in$ into Bitcoin startups ri$ht no/

some o( that is not $onna succeed& some o( those companies are $onna $o -ust (or /hatever reason& ri$ht= ABL: But a$ain& to that point& the /hole venture model /hen it comes to thisSM: - eah& it -uilds in ris'ABL: -/ell eah& it -uilds in a huge amount o( (ailure" the standard model (or this t pe o( compan is: ou /ould ma'e siCteen investments& (i(teen o( them are supposed to (ail& and the one that succeeds is the one that ma'es ou cra< & cra< rich -e ond our /ildest dreams. So& on the venture side& /e certainl did see some o( that& and there /ere a lot o( people /anderin$ around& loo'in$ into places& tr in$ to (i$ure out /hat /as $oin$ on . thin' it0s the attitude that0s most important. 6e had a venture $u come to our (irst meetup on Frida & and it /as reall interestin$ tal'in$ to him -ecause he had 3ust le(t his compan and a$ain& /e0re not $onna $et into names -ut he had a couple o( hundred thousand dollars that he /as /antin$ to thro/ at pro3ects& and /hen . tal'ed to him on his /a out a couple o( hours a$o& he0s li'e #the thin$ . reali<ed is that a (e/ hundred thousand dollars is 3ust not enou$h to -e a-le to do pro3ects and spread the ris' around%. So& /hat he /as $oin$ to do /as& he /as (l in$ -ac' immediatel to his old venture (irm& and /as $oin$ to sa #he & let0s thro/ a couple o( million dollars at this pro3ect% - and a$ain& even (rom the venture space& a couple o( million dollars is nothin$& that0s li'e a couple o( people chippin$ in on that side& /hereas ou have these $iant (unds. AP: Stephanie& ou /ere comparin$ that to the dot-com -u--le. . thin' the dotcom -u--le onl reall too' o(( once ever thin$ /as traded on the >e/ 7or' Stoc' BCchan$e& and . thin' /e are /a & /a & (ar apart (rom havin$ that in the Bitcoin space& so there is no mass appeal spi'e /hen ever one0s thro/in$ mone at the Bitcoin stoc's. ABL: And the other thin$& o( course& that0s di((erent (rom the dot-com era is that the moneti<ation /ith Bitcoin is -uilt in so a$ain& ou have this pro-lem /here /ith the dot-com& ever one /as so eCcited a-out $ettin$ the e e-alls that that /as the (ocus& and so it0s li'e Face-oo' it0s li'e& #/e 3ust need to $et the users& and then /e0ll /orr a-out ho/ to moneti<e it later% - -ut the pro-lem is that /hen ou -uild our -usiness around not moneti<in$& /ith the idea that ou0ll do it later& /hat ou /ind up doin$ is as ou tr to moneti<e& ever sin$le thin$ ou do pushes users a/a (rom ou& -ecause the service is $ettin$ /orse instead o( $ettin$ -etter& so /ith Bitcoin a$ain& it has other pro-lems . thin' that the re$ulator ris' is meanin$(ul -ut it doesn0t have that pro-lem. 1he moneti<ation is actuall there (rom minute one& -ecause it0s mone . AP: A-solutel . SM: Mm& -ut there are people /ho speculate on Bitcoin -ecause it0s also a commodit .

ABL: ?@& -ut that0s m point& that that0s di((erent. 7ou can speculate on it ou couldn0t speculate on the .nternet companies until the /ere on the stoc' eCchan$e& -ut -ecause Bitcoin is mone & it0s (loatin$ value& relativel spea'in$. A.P. And it0s an B1F on the /hole Bitcoin space. ABL: 7eah& that0s eCactl ri$ht. 1hat& o( course& is the other thin$& is that& i( ou0re loo'in$ at this (rom a ris' perspective& solel & -u in$ -itcoin is such a sa(er investment& -ecause i( ou0re investin$ in companies& and Bitcoin (ails& all the Bitcoin companies (ail" -ut i( ou0re investin$ in Bitcoin& it doesn0t matter i( the Bitcoin companies (ail& it 3ust matters i( there0s adoption overall& and ou still have that eCponential multiplier e((ect that 'ic's in. A$ain& it0s 3ust one o( those thin$s /here& -ecause o( /hat is is and ho/ it operates& it -rea's a lot o( the rules -ecause the moneti<ation is alread -uilt in" ou don0t need to /orr a-out that part o( them all ou need to /orr a-out other thin$s& -ut not that. AP: So& no/ /e0re tal'in$ a-out the price all the time& ri$ht=

ABL: >o& /e0re not. SM: 7ou 'no/& . haven0t chec'ed the price in a couple o( da s& .0m $onna $o to m Bitcoin Paranoid app . did notice that a(ter the 4i$a?M meetup on 1hursda ni$ht& /hich /as a smashin$ success& there /as a -ump in price o( a-out (ive -uc's o( Bitcoins. . don0t 'no/ i( that0s meanin$(ul& -ut . thou$ht ma -e it /as. ABL: Somethin$ else that de(initel is true here is DthatE this is an incredi-l multicultural event. 1here /ere people (l in$ in (rom all over the world. SM: . love the accents. .ncludin$ ours& Andreas5 AP: . can0t $et rid o( that... ABL: 1he accents /ere $reat. 6e had such (un tal'in$ /ith& . /anted to sa a #set o( 4ree's% - the /ere actuall a couple o( reall nice 4ree' $u s& /ho hadn0t 'no/n each other& and /e sa/ this actuall . sa/ this /hole $roup o( Canadians& ri$ht& /ho didn0t 'no/ each other -e(ore the thin$& -ut -ecause the /ere Canadians& /ound up han$in$ out to$ether (or most o( the thin$ and 3ust $oin$ around (rom thin$ to thin$. Actuall & Peter uschins!y, one of the contri"utors for the show, !ind of glommed onto this grou# $ SM: . didn0t $et to meet him5 He must have -een /ith the Canadians the /hole time... ABL: 7ou didn0t $et to meet him= Peter0s a $reat $u & man. But it /as the same thin$ /ith there /ere a couple o( 4ree' $u s /ho had met over the course o( the thin$& and all had pro3ects that /ere relevant to each other& and so then ou hoo' up here" and so even thou$h it0s this thin$ happenin$ in America& the 0re all $oin$ -ac' to 4reece throu$h their various channels at some point in the near

(uture& and the all are colla-oratin$ no/ to -uild tools& and seminars& and trainin$s to essentiall $et this stu(( into the /ild. .t0s ver eCcitin$. 1he other thin$ that 3umped out to me is that it /as so much less a-out the tal's& and so much more a-out the attendees. >earl ever sin$le person that . tal'ed to and reall & to/ards the end o( it&. reali<ed that . /as missin$ out - not introducin$ m sel( to ever sin$le person that . sa/ -ecause ever -od has a pro3ect& even the people /ho /ere here as attendees /ere (unctionall not attendees& the should0ve -een spea'ers. AP: A-solutel & eah. So& people came to our -ooth" almost ever one could ma'e a speech o( their o/n a-out /hat the are doin$ in the Bitcoin space& and . thin' there /ere onl one or t/o people /ho 3ust said #/ell& .0m interested in the /hole thin$&% -ut a hundred peopleSM: . thin' that0s it& it attracts curious& active-minded people& and the all then& as a result& once the understand enou$h /ant to have their o/n pro3ects& and the do& -ecause nothin$0s stoppin$ them& -ecause it0s so eas to 3ust start one o( our o/n. ABL: And there0s so much to do5 7ou can loo' at this (rom so man di((erent an$les& and ever -od loo's at it and sees somethin$ a little -it di((erent& -ecause comin$ (rom our o/n conteCt& ou0re a-le to 3ust appl it to /hatever the Hec' ou0re alread doin$ and see the /a s it ma'es it easier& or -etter& or more e((icient" it 3ust chan$es thin$s& and it0s reall po/er(ul. SM: Another thin$ this is $onna -e 'ind o( meta& -ecause /e0re doin$ a podcast a-out the podcast& -ut 3ust to toot our o/n horn a little -it . /as stunned at the num-er o( people - /e0ve onl -een podcastin$ (or a month& Adam ABL: 7eah& 3ust a month. SM: -and . /as stunned at the num-er o( people /ho a) had heard o( our sho/& -) had listened to our sho/& c) reco$ni<ed me /ithout me 'no/in$ /ho the /ere5 Hid ou have the same eCperience= ABL: 7eah& . did. AP: . thin' our podcast /as /a overdue. ?-viousl & -ecause o( m accent& . /on0t do an Bn$lish podcast all the time. 6e /ere as'ed multiple times& #s/itch to Bn$lish5 7ou /ill $et such an audience5 1here is no Bn$lish podcast& /hat0s $oin$ on=% - and ou /ere 3ust ri$ht (or the time. ABL: 1han' ou (or sa in$ that& Andreas. ?ne o( the most (un eCperiences that . had here /as -ein$ a-le to meet all these people /ho& .0ve -een readin$ their stu(( (or ears& and . have no idea /hat the loo' li'e . o(tentimes didn0t 'no/ their real name -ut 1/itter /as such a tool (or (i$urin$ out /ho people /ere& coordinatin$ /ith that& and then schedulin$ the meetup. . $ot to meet one o( m personal heroes& !e((re Paul& /ho $oes - #Snea'% online he0s the $u /ho did a tal' at CCC -ac' in :;8;& . thin' it /as-

SM: 6hat0s CCC= ABL: CCC is the Chaos Communication Con$ress. SM: .t0s C). ABL: C)= AP: 7eah& C). ABL: An /a s& it0s a 4erman earl seminar that0s -asicall on in(ormation securit and stu(( li'e that. .t0s 'inda $ee' & it0s actuall super reall -technical $ee' & and .0m not that technical& as (ar as -ein$ a-le to loo' at code and sa #?@& /ell . see /hat that does&% -ut . li'e to hear people /ho 'no/ /hat it does tal' a-out it& -ecause that helps me -e a-le to understand it . don0t understand eCactl ho/ it /or's& -ut it0s li'e a dollar" ou don0t need to understand ho/ a dollar /or's in order to 'no/ that it0s use(ul& in order to 'no/ its purpose. So& that side o( it /as reall eCcitin$& $ettin$ to tal' to these people and then on the other side o( it& havin$ people come up to me and sa #.0m here -ecause o( ou& . came to this sho/ -ecause o( our sho/ and the ideas that it spar'ed in m head% - -ecause that0s li'e m dream. M dream is to help people have ideas a-out this& -ecause . have so man ideas a-out this& and . 'no/ that .0m not the onl one& and that0s ver eCcitin$ to me. So& other people /ho /e met... actuall & .0m not even $onna tr to list them& there0s too man to list. SM: 7eah& there are too man too list. ABL: 1oo man & . don0t /anna leave an -od o((. SM: So man o( them /ere reall ama<in$. . (elt li'e startin$ at our meetup on Frida & /hen /e had listeners come and meet us& . reall connected /ith a lot o( people there& and then (ollo/in$ that& at the con(erence& D.E met a lot o( cool people that . (elt li'e . had a lot in common /ith& so that /as a/esome. ABL: 1his /as an incredi-le eCperience& and . do not travel. 1hat is not somethin$ that . en3o doin$. . didn0t have to travel an /here near as (ar as most people that0s the onl reason /h . came -ut a(ter this eCperience& i( this is /hat Bitcoin con(erences are $onna -e li'e& then .0m $onna $et on a plane and .0m $onna (l /herever the hec' /e need to $o neCt time somethin$ li'e this happens. AP: So then& ou should come to Lienna. ABL: . 'no/& . 'no/& . don0t /anna $o to 4erman & . don0t /anna $o to Burope... SM: 6ell& ou don0t have to $o to 4erman & -ecause Lienna0s in Austria5 ABL: . don0t /anna $o to BA2?PB5 But it0s ?@& m /i(e0s $onna /or' at it -inaudi-le- (or a /hile& so /e mi$ht (ind ourselves there. 6e mi$ht (ind ourselves

in >e/ 7or'& too& .0m (indin$ that . /anna $o to that& so /e can hit that to$ether. 1hat0ll -e (un. SM: Cool. AA: From 8st to +rd >ovem-er& there /ill -e the uns stem.net& . thin' the (ocus /ill -e more political aspects o( Bitcoin& and anarchism& +H printin$& andABL: 6ell& the +H printin$ .0m interested in& -ut it0s the technolo$ & . thin'& and the pro3ects that are -ased around DBitcoinE the politics& honestl & . (eel li'e the more /e (ocus on that& the less use(ul it is -ecause it dra/s such ne$ative attention to the /hole thin$. AA: 7eah& that0s true. . /ould li'e more -usiness-oriented stu((& -ut /ho 'no/s& it0s $oin$ to -e a lon$ time until >ovem-er& /e0ll see ho/ that develops. ABL: 6ell& a$ain& there are other sho/s& there are other con(erences that are $onna -e startin$ up -e(ore that& so . thin' there0s at least one or t/o -e(ore Lienna. So& the Bitcoin con(erence ecos stem& this /as reall a proo(-o(-concept that no/ is the time& and the people are here& and the colla-orations are here m $od& the colla-orations. . $ave a tal' on content moneti<ation and it /as not to a terri-l lar$e room& -ut . had pro-a-l 8G people (ollo/ me out& and ) o( them /anted to -uild the services that . /as sa in$& #oh& /e should -uild these s stems.% SM: ?h& li'e /hat= ABL: 6ell& a$ain& m (ocus has -een on a couple o( thin$s. ?ne thin$ /e0ve done /ith the sho/ is that /e have these tip /id$ets. 1he pro-lem is that the tip /id$ets are 'inda -ro'en& the don0t reall /or' (or ever -od & and even (or the people the do /or' (or& the could -e improved in a num-er o( /a s& li'e ma'in$ it so that /e could have di((erent addresses on each o( the sites that the sho/ is posted to& and then /hen donations come in& /e0re a-le to see those. 6e can do that no/& -ut the pro-lem is that our /id$et onl displa s one address at a time& so /e need a /a (or it to ta'e multiple addresses& sum them to$ether and displa the total (or the sho/& -ut still -e a-le to $ive us in(ormation a-out /here the tips are comin$ (rom. AP: 1hat sounds li'e a $reat implementation (or HH /allets& actuall . ABL: 6ell& there ou $o. SM: ?h& ri$ht& eah. AP: D7ouE can do that /ithout HH /allets& as /ell. SM: But ou had someone o((er to -uild that. ABL: 6e had someone o((er to -uild that& nice& -ut no/ /e0re tal'in$ /ith the -usiness development $u at Flattr& /hich is a microtransaction tippin$ service& -asicall -

SM: 7eah& .0m (amiliar& the use F2>s there& ri$ht= ABL: 1he do use F2>s no/& -ut the 0re loo'in$ to o-solete themselves a$ain& . can0t $et into too man details& -ut there0s a lot o( movement in this space ri$ht no/& and . thin' /e0re seein$ the end o( these proprietar tippin$ services& or these proprietar . don0t /anna name names& -ut the realit is& plat(orms that tr to intercept the value tr to sa #he & come and have a /allet on our plat(orm% - . thin' those are $oin$ the /a o( the dinosaurs& -ecause the 0re 3ust totall unnecessar . AP: 6ell& Flattr in particular& . thin' that has a use in Bitcoin. 6hen /e started out tal'in$ a-out Bitcoin& a lot o( people said #-uild a Bitcoin Flattr replacement&% -ecause it0s actuall ver re/ardin$ (or podcasters to have monthl donations in a re$ular /a & and (or the users& it0s li'e the are allocatin$ their cultural -ud$et& so the sa #?@& . /ant the (iCed amount%& and then the are spreadin$ this amount each month& so the don0t have to ta'e care o( all the divisions and microtransactions and so on. So the 3ust have to have such (unintelligi"le), some of them aare removed and some of them are (unintelligi"le) . . thin' that0s a use(ul service& even /ith Bitcoin& -ecause ou don0t /ant to send out li'e a hundred di((erent donations to all the tin thin$s ou0re listenin$ and all -loc's ou0re readin$. SM: 7eah& . /as $onna sa & is it too earl to start a travel (und= .( the listeners en3o ed our covera$e o( this con(erence& the could send us to other con(erences& somethin$ li'e that. ABL: . thin' that0s de(initel somethin$ /e should -e tal'in$ a-out. But the $ood ne/s is that& in addition to havin$ listener support& it loo's li'e /e0re $onna -e a-le to have sponsor support& -ecause a$ain& that /as the other thin$ here this is the start o( somethin$ -i$& and it0s the start o( somethin$ -i$ (or Bitcoin& -ut /e0re ridin$ the /ave here. .n the press room& one o( the other out(its that /as there is called B1C!ournal. 1he don0t eCist et& the start eCistin$ neCt /ee'. So& there0s competition movin$ into the space& -ut at the same time& 3ust -ecause /e have a month0s headstart& it0s such an advanta$e. .t0s cra< ho/ much o( an advanta$e doin$ the sho/ (or a month has -een& -ecause it0s $otten us into so man peoples0 heads. . have a (eelin$ that over the neCt couple o( months& /e0re $onna -e a-le to levera$e this into some reall incredi-le& insi$ht(ul intervie/s that are $onna -lo/ peoples0 minds& and it0s cra< . 1he people /ho are developin$ these technolo$ies and developin$ these plat(orms have such vision& and it0s reall eas to $et stuc' in an echo cham-er and sa #oh man& that0s a $reat idea no& that0s a $reat idea no& that's a $reat idea% -ut to a certain eCtent& the are. Li'e . said in the -e$innin$ o( this& /hen ou thro/ oursel( entirel into somethin$& and ou ma'e it all that ou are& it0s hard& -ecause ou can (eel alone. And /hat this sho/ed us is that there0s at least K;; o( the 8;;; attendees here /ho are doin$ eCactl the same thin$& and /ith so man people Juittin$ their 3o-s and (ocusin$ all o( their creative e((ort and all o( their time onto these properties and pro3ects& . don0t 'no/ /hat0s $onna happen& -ut it0s $onna -e ama<in$.

AP: . thin' /e /ill see a /orld /ith ne/ services& and that0s $reat& that0s evolution. .ndustrial revolution ).; or somethin$. ABL: So& that0s a-out all the time /e have (or toni$ht. 6e0re $oin$ on 88 o0 cloc' and . certainl have to $et to -ed& and . 'no/ that Stephanie0s pro-a-l still on >e/ Hampshire time& soSM: .0m on 6est Coast 1ime even /hen .0m on the east coast. . sta up late. ABL: Have ou ad3usted et& Andreas= AP: . thin' . /ill 3ust s'ip a (e/ ni$hts& ma -e& that /ill -e (ine. ABL: Ler $ood& ver $ood. 6ell& $reat& this /as the most (un .0ve had in a lot o( ears. And .0ve covered a lot o( con(erences -e(ore" /e0re doin$ this at the San !ose Convention Center. . covered 4HC& 4ame Hevelopers0 Convention here (or a num-er o( ears& and there /ere eCponentiall less people here& and it /as eCponentiall more interestin$ than .0ve ever seen it -e(ore. So& that0s a-out it (or this episode o( Let0s 1al' Bitcoin. SM: 7our poor voice& Adam& it sounds li'e ra$& so tired5 ABL: . have -een tal'in$ non-stop (or da s. .t0s cra< & -ecause ou0re -ouncin$ (rom hour-lon$ conversation to hour-lon$ conversation /ith each person. !: .0m $onna 3ump in& out o( the peanut $aller & . can0t resist. ABL: .t0s !ustice here& !ustice!: (%enevere&) 1he secret to con(erences is to s'ip all the tal's. Hon0t /atch them& the 0ll -e on 7ou1u-e. Ma'e the personal connections& tal' to people& $et (acetime. All these tal's the 0re a -ait-and-s/itch& the 0re an eCcuse (or us to all come and han$ out to$ether. And it0s the personal connections that reall ma'e these con(erences valua-le. ABL: 7eah& . totall a$ree. AP: >o/ ou0ve spoiled it. 7eah& . a-solutel a$ree. And ou should come to our -ooth& M celium. !: 7ou have to have ne/ users /ho don0t 'no/ that secret& so that there /ill -e an audience (or the spea'ers& -ut the real secret is #don0t $o to the tal's.% 1al' to people. Meet people. ABL: . cau$ht our panel& Stephanie& . cau$ht !ohn Li$ht0s tal'& . cau$ht the altcoin tal' or the altcoin panel& /hich /as prett interestin$" it had some reall interestin$ characters on it. And then . $ave m tal' on content moneti<ation -ut . thin'& -esides that& . didn0t see an thin$. But& ou 'no/& 7ou1u-e is a $reat thin$.

AP: 7ou can reall see the evolution o( Bitcoin a little -it in the con(erence evolution. . /as at Pra$ue in :;88& there /ere& . thin' a hundred and (i(t people there& and there /ere people comin$ (rom all over the /orld and then London& and no/ here& so it0s reall $ettin$ o((. 2eall eCcitin$. ABL: Ha/n o( a -rave ne/ /orld. AP: A-solutel . ABL: 4oodni$ht. (Music "egins) 1han's (or tunin$ into this special episode o( Let0s 1al' Bitcoin. 6hether ou li'ed& loved& or hated the sho/& /e /anna 'no/ /hat ou thin'. Please send all listener mail to adamOletstal'-itcoin.com. Content (or this episode /as provided Stephanie Murph & Andreas Petersson& and listener !ustice. Music (or this episode /as provided - !ared 2u-ens. For lin's to his /or'& visit letstal'-itcoin.comPmusic. 6e0ve $ot lots o( content comin$ up& -ut . can0t (or the li(e o( me tell ou /hat0ll -e out neCt so .0ve decided to stop ma'in$ $uesses here until /e $et the editorial calendar up and (unctional. 1han's so much (or our support. .( ou0d li'e to donate to the sho/& please visit ///.letstal'-itcoin.com. See ou neCt time. ('nstrumental continues for two minutes till end.)