Katherine Jackson V AEG Live. Transcripts of DR Early September 3rd 2013

866 299-5127
Veritext National Deposition & Litigation Services

15777
1 CASE NUMBER: BC445597
2 CASE NAME: J ACKSON VS. A. E. G.
3 LOS ANGELES, CALI FORNI A SEPTEMBER 3, 2013
4 DEPARTMENT NO. 28 HON. YVETTE M. PALAZUELOS,
5 J UDGE
6 APPEARANCES: ( AS HERETOFORE NOTED. )
7 REPORTER: RHONDA NORBERG, CSR 9265
8 TI ME: 1: 33 P. M.
9
10 ( THE FOLLOWI NG PROCEEDI NGS WERE HELD
11 I N OPEN COURT, OUTSI DE THE PRESENCE
12 OF THE J URY: )
13
14 THE COURT: J ACKSON VERSUS A. E. G. LI VE, BC445597.
15 TO MY RI GHT I S SERGEANT WHEATCROFT. HE' S
16 THE GENTLEMAN I MENTI ONED BEFORE. AND I DON' T WANT TO
17 TALK I N DEPTH TODAY ABOUT HI S SECURI TY PLANS, BUT I DO
18 WANT TO ARRANGE A TI ME WHEN HE CAN MEET WI TH YOU.
19 DO YOU HAVE THI S CALENDAR?
20 SERGEANT WHEATCROFT, DO YOU HAVE YOURS WI TH
21 YOU?
22 SERGEANT WHEATCROFT: I DO.
23 THE COURT: WE WANTED TO ARRANGE A TI ME WHEN THE
24 ATTORNEYS COULD MEET WI TH SERGEANT WHEATCROFT. I THI NK
25 THE LAST TI ME WE SPOKE, WE SAI D THE 9TH OR 10TH; BUT
26 SERGEANT WHEATCROFT, I THI NK, I S UNAVAI LABLE, SO I S
27 THERE SOME OTHER TI ME - -
28 MR. PUTNAM: I S THERE NO TI ME YOU CAN DO THURSDAY
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1 AFTERNOON, BRI AN, ON THE 5TH?
2 MR. PANI SH: NO, I CAN' T - - BUT HE' S OFF THAT
3 WEEK - - NEXT WEEK, I THI NK HE' S OFF.
4 MR. PUTNAM: I ' M TALKI NG ABOUT THI S WEEK, THE DAY
5 AFTER TOMORROW.
6 MR. PANI SH: THE 5TH, I CAN' T DO.
7 THE COURT: WHAT ABOUT EARLY? " EARLY" MEANI NG
8 WHAT I F I HAD YOU COME I N A LI TTLE EARLY AND THEN - -
9 WAI T A MI NUTE. ON THE 5TH, WE' RE SUPPOSED TO BE HERE
10 AT WHAT TI ME RI GHT NOW?
11 THE CLERK: 10: 30.
12 MR. PANI SH: I WAS GOI NG TO ASK I F WE COULD HAVE
13 THAT HEARI NG AT 10: 00. CAN WE COME AT 9: 30 OR 9: 15 TO
14 MEET WI TH THE SERGEANT? BECAUSE HE' S GOI NG TO BE HERE
15 THI S WEEK. SO 9: 15 ON - -
16 THE COURT: LET ME ASK NELI TO CHECK OUT WHAT I
17 HAVE ON CALENDAR.
18 THE CLERK: 9: 30 SHOULD BE OKAY, YOUR HONOR.
19 THE COURT: OKAY. SO I S 9: 30 OKAY?
20 MR. BOYLE: FOR US TO - -
21 MS. BI NA: WE' LL MEET WI TH THE SERGEANT AND THEN
22 AFTERWARDS DO THE NONSUI T ARGUMENT?
23 THE COURT: WHAT TI ME DI D WE SAY WE WERE GOI NG TO
24 CALL THE J URY?
25 MR. PUTNAM: THERE' S NO J URY ON THURSDAY.
26 THE COURT: OH, YEAH. THAT' S WHAT MAKES I T
27 GOOD.
28 MR. PANI SH: I F WE CAN MAYBE - - I MEAN, I DON' T
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1 KNOWHOWLONG I T' S GOI NG TO TAKE.
2 THE COURT: WHAT TI ME DO YOU HAVE TO BE OUT OF
3 HERE?
4 MR. PANI SH: I HAVE TO BE ON THE WEST SI DE AT
5 1: 00 O' CLOCK TO TAKE MY SON AT THE DOCTOR.
6 THE COURT: I F WE START AT 9: 30 WI TH SERGEANT
7 WHEATCROFT, WE DO THE MOTI ON, I THI NK YOU' LL BE OUT OF
8 HERE I N TI ME.
9 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, J UST SI NCE WE' RE DEALI NG
10 WI TH SCHEDULI NG I SSUES, TO THE EXTENT WE HAVE
11 ADDI TI ONAL TI ME EI THER AT THE END OF THE DAY TOMORROW
12 OR AFTER THE NONSUI T ARGUMENT ON THURSDAY, I WOULD LOVE
13 I F WE COULD RESOLVE ANY OUTSTANDI NG I SSUES ON THE TWO
14 DEPOSI TI ON DESI GNATI ONS THAT YOU HELD ON THAT WE WERE
15 HOPI NG TO ARGUE ON FRI DAY.
16 THE COURT: J UST REMI ND ME. DON' T BE SHY ABOUT
17 THAT. I NEVER GET ANGRY ABOUT BEI NG REMI NDED.
18 MS. CAHAN: SO EI THER TOMORROWAFTERNOON OR
19 THURSDAY AFTER THE OTHER ARGUMENTS WOULD BE I DEAL.
20 THE COURT: OKAY. THANK YOU. ALL RI GHT. SO - -
21 SERGEANT WHEATCROFT: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
22 THE COURT: THANK YOU.
23
24
26 I N OPEN COURT, I N THE PRESENCE OF THE
27 J URORS: )
28
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1 THE COURT: KATHERI NE J ACKSON VERSUS A. E. G. LI VE,
2 BC445597. GOOD AFTERNOON.
3 LET' S CONTI NUE.
4 MS. CAHAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
5
6 CONTI NUED DI RECT EXAMI NATI ON
7 BY MS. CAHAN:
8 Q SO, DR. EARLEY, RI GHT BEFORE THE LUNCH
9 BREAK WE WERE TALKI NG ABOUT THAT STEEP DOSE RESPONSE
10 CURVE I DEA, THE I DEA THAT A SMALL CHANGE I N DOSE OF
11 PROPOFOL COULD HAVE A DRAMATI C EFFECT ON A PATI ENT' S
12 BREATHI NG AND ABI LI TY TO LI VE.
13 A YES.
14 Q AND YOU SAI D THAT I T VARI ES EVEN FROM TI ME
15 TO TI ME - - THE DOSE THAT' S NECESSARY TO GET SOMEONE
16 I NTO THE RI GHT SPOT FOR ANESTHESI A CAN VARY FROM TI ME
17 TO TI ME DEPENDI NG ON THE PERSON AND DEPENDI NG ON A
18 NUMBER OF FACTORS.
19 A YES.
20 Q AND YOU SAI D EXPERI ENCED ANESTHESI OLOGI STS
21 AND ANESTHESI A PROVI DERS CAN SORT OF HELP - - THEY WATCH
22 CAREFULLY AND THEY HELP TI TRATE, ADJ UST THE DOSE SO
23 THAT THAT THE PERSON STAYS I N THE RI GHT SPOT FOR
24 ANESTHESI A?
25 A CORRECT.
26 Q ASSUMI NG PROPOFOL WAS ALWAYS ADMI NI STERED
27 TO MR. J ACKSON BY A DOCTOR, WOULD HE BE SAFE I F HE HAD
28 SOMEONE SORT OF WATCHI NG THAT RESPONSE?
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1 MR. PANI SH: I ' M GOI NG TO OBJ ECT; FOUNDATI ON ON
2 THI S WI TNESS ON ADMI NI STRATI ON OF PROPOFOL AND HOWI T' S
3 THE STANDARD AND WHAT' S TO BE DONE. THAT' S MY
4 OBJ ECTI ON. THERE' S NO FOUNDATI ON AS TO HI S EXPERI ENCE
5 AND KNOWLEDGE OF GI VI NG PROPOFOL.
6 THE COURT: I T I S GETTI NG A LI TTLE BEYOND - -
7 MS. CAHAN: MAYBE I CAN LAY SOME FOUNDATI ON, YOUR
8 HONOR.
9 THE COURT: ALL RI GHT.
10 Q BY MS. CAHAN: I S THE STEEP DOSE RESPONSE
11 CURVE FOR PROPOFOL AND THE EASE OF OVERDOSE SOMETHI NG
12 THAT YOU' VE OBSERVED I N PATI ENTS THAT YOU' VE TREATED
13 WHO HAVE BECOME PROPOFOL DEPENDENT OR ABUSED PROPOFOL?
14 A I ' VE NOT BEEN THE DI RECT OBSERVER OF THAT,
15 BUT I TAKE CARE OF A LOT OF ANESTHESI OLOGI STS WHO
16 DESCRI BE THAT I N ARTI CULATE DETAI L WHEN THEY WORK WI TH
17 ME WHEN THEY' RE PROPOFOL DEPENDENT.
18 Q SO AND ANESTHESI OLOGI STS WHO YOU TAKE CARE
19 OF WHO ABUSE PROPOFOL CAN' T ALWAYS CONTROL THE DOSE THE
20 WAY THEY WANT TO FOR THEMSELVES?
21 A CORRECT.
22 AND AS A MATTER OF FACT, THAT' S OFTEN HOW
23 THEY PRESENT, I S THEY TAKE TOO MUCH, THEY' RE FOUND BLUE
24 ON THE FLOOR OF AN OPERATI NG ROOM BATHROOM OR SOMETHI NG
25 LI KE THAT.
26 Q AND WERE SOME OF THOSE ANESTHESI OLOGI STS
27 THAT YOU' VE TREATED SOME OF THE PATI ENTS WHO WERE
28 I NCLUDED I N THE PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON STUDY THAT YOU
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1 PUBLI SHED?
2 A THEY WERE.
3 Q SO WE WERE TALKI NG ABOUT - - A BI T EARLI ER
4 TODAY ABOUT THE PROCESS FOR PUTTI NG THE STUDY TOGETHER
5 AND SUBMI TTI NG I T FOR PUBLI CATI ON, AND I J UST WANT TO
6 MAKE SURE WE FULLY COVERED THAT.
7 A OKAY.
8 Q WHEN I N THE PROCESS OF YOUR STUDY DI D YOU
9 DI SCLOSE THAT A. E. G. LI VE, TO THE PUBLI SHERS - - LET ME
10 START THAT AGAI N.
11 WHEN I N THE PROCESS OF GETTI NG YOUR STUDY
12 PUBLI SHED DI D YOU DI SCLOSE TO THE PUBLI SHER THAT A. E. G.
13 LI VE WAS PROVI DI NG FUNDI NG FOR YOUR STUDY?
14 A WHEN YOU - - WHEN YOU FI LL OUT THE I NI TI AL
15 SUBMI SSI ON DOCUMENT, THERE ARE SPACES FOR AUTHOR NAMES,
16 ADDRESSES, FUNDI NG SOURCES, MANUSCRI PT, ABSTRACT. AND
17 I N THE LI NE THAT SAI D " FUNDI NG SOURCES, " UPON
18 I NI TI AL - - UPON MY I NI TI AL SUBMI SSI ON, I PUT A. E. G.
19 LI VE.
20 Q AND THAT WAS BACK I N 2012?
21 A CORRECT.
22 Q AND DI D THE J OURNAL HAVE ANY QUESTI ONS
23 ABOUT A. E. G. LI VE FUNDI NG THE STUDY?
24 A ACTUALLY, THEY DI D. THEY CAME BACK AND
25 SAI D, " WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE?" YOU COULD UNDERSTAND THAT
26 BECAUSE THE MAJ ORI TY OF RESEARCH COMES FROM
27 NOT- FOR- PROFI T FOUNDATI ONS SUCH AS ROBERT WOOD J OHNSON
28 OR MAYBE N. I . H.
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1 SO THEY SAI D, " WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE?" AND I
2 REPLI ED THAT AT THE TI ME THAT A. E. G. LI VE WAS AN
3 ENTERTAI NMENT COMPANY THAT I WAS DOI NG RESEARCH FOR.
4 Q SO YOU TOLD THE PUBLI SHERS THAT YOU WERE
5 DOI NG RESEARCH FOR A. E. G. LI VE AT THAT POI NT I N TI ME?
6 A CORRECT.
7 Q DI D THE PUBLI SHERS SAY THAT THEY THOUGHT
8 THERE MI GHT BE SOME KI ND OF CONFLI CT OF I NTEREST
9 BECAUSE YOU WERE WORKI NG FOR A. E. G. LI VE AND WRI TI NG
10 THE STUDY?
11 A NO.
12 Q DI D YOU THI NK THAT THERE WAS ANY CONFLI CT
13 OF I NTEREST?
14 A NO.
15 THI S WAS A SCI ENTI FI C I NQUI RY I NTO PROPOFOL
16 ADDI CTI ON.
17 Q AND DOES THE J OURNAL OF ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE
18 ACTUALLY HAVE A CONFLI CT OF I NTEREST POLI CY?
19 A THEY DO.
20 Q AND ARE YOU FAMI LI AR WI TH I T?
21 A I WAS.
22 Q DI D YOU READ I T OVER BEFORE YOU SUBMI TTED
23 THE STUDY FOR PUBLI CATI ON?
24 A OF COURSE I DI D. I WANTED TO MAKE SURE
25 THAT I ADHERED TO EVERYTHI NG I COULD DO TO - - TO - - FOR
26 THE PUBLI CATI ON.
27 Q AND DI D YOU THI NK THAT THERE MI GHT BE SOME
28 KI ND OF CONFLI CT OF I NTEREST UNDER THAT POLI CY BECAUSE
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1 YOU WERE DOI NG WORK FOR US?
2 A NO, BECAUSE MY RESEARCH - - WHAT I WAS DOI NG
3 FOR YOU AT THE TI ME WAS RESEARCH ON PROPOFOL AND
4 PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON.
5 Q SO THAT WAS BEFORE WE HAD HI RED YOU TO BE A
6 TESTI FYI NG EXPERT WI TNESS?
7 A YES.
8 AND, I N FACT, I - - I DI DN' T EVEN KNOWTHAT
9 WAS I N THE PI KE. I J UST ASSUMED YOU WANTED THE
10 RESEARCH.
11 Q AND THAT WAS BEFORE WE SENT YOU ANY
12 MATERI ALS FROM THI S CASE, ANY MEDI CAL RECORDS OR
13 TESTI MONY?
14 A CORRECT.
15 Q AND SPEAKI NG OF THE J OURNAL OF ADDI CTI ON
16 MEDI CI NE POLI CI ES, WOULD THERE BE ANY I SSUE WI TH YOU
17 SENDI NG US A COPY OF A DRAFT OF YOUR STUDY AFTER YOU
18 HAD FI RST SUBMI TTED I T TO THE J OURNAL AND BEFORE I T WAS
19 PUBLI SHED?
20 A ACTUALLY, THERE I S NONE. I WOUND UP
21 SENDI NG A COPY AFTER I T WAS SUBMI TTED BECAUSE - - AFTER
22 THE I NI TI AL SUBMI SSI ON DATE BECAUSE I WANTED TO MAKE
23 SURE THAT AS FUNDERS OF THE STUDY, YOU KNEWTHAT I HAD
24 REACHED THAT MI LESTONE.
25 Q AND DI D YOU ASK US FOR ANY I NPUT ON THE
26 STUDY AT THAT POI NT?
27 DI D WE GI VE YOU ANY I NPUT?
28 A NO.
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1 Q AND, AGAI N, AT ANY POI NT DI D WE HAVE ANY
2 I NFLUENCE OVER WHAT THE STUDY SAI D, OR I TS ANALYSI S?
3 A NO.
4 Q SO GOI NG BACK TO YOUR SLI DE 4, WHI CH I S
5 EXHI BI T 13565 - -
6 A YES.
7 Q - - WE TALKED ABOUT THAT FI RST POI NT, THE
8 PROPERTI ES OF PROPOFOL. AND I WANT TO MOVE NOWON TO
9 THE SECOND FACTOR YOU HAVE LI STED THERE. WE' VE ALREADY
10 TALKED ABOUT - - A LI TTLE BI T ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE
11 APPROPRI ATE PLACE FOR PROPOFOL TO BE ADMI NI STERED I S A
12 HOSPI TAL SETTI NG, YOU KNOW, WI TH CERTAI N EQUI PMENT AND
13 SOMEBODY WI TH - - YOU KNOW, UNDER PROPER SUPERVI SI ON.
14 A RI GHT.
15 Q BASED ON YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORD, DI D
16 MI CHAEL J ACKSON EVER USE PROPOFOL I N AN I NAPPROPRI ATE
17 SETTI NG?
18 A YES, HE - - UNFORTUNATELY, HE WAS
19 ADMI NI STERED PROPOFOL I N AN I NAPPROPRI ATE SETTI NG.
20 LATER ON I N THE COURSE, ONE COULD PROBABLY ARGUE
21 ABOUT - - ON THE " HI STORY" TOUR WHEN HE OBTAI NED
22 PROPOFOL I N GERMANY BECAUSE THERE WAS SUFFI CI ENT
23 EQUI PMENT AROUND THAT THAT WAS AN APPROPRI ATE SOURCE
24 EVEN THOUGH I T WASN' T A HOSPI TAL.
25 THERE WERE TWO ANESTHESI OLOGI STS, THEY
26 COULD RELI EVE EACH OTHER - - I T' S NOT CLEAR THEY WERE
27 BOTH ANESTHESI OLOGI STS. THERE WERE TWO MEDI CAL
28 PERSONNEL.
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1 THERE WAS PLENTY OF TECHNI CAL EQUI PMENT, TO
2 THE BEST OF MY UNDERSTANDI NG OF THE RECORD, SO ONE
3 COULD ARGUE THAT THAT WAS NOT NECESSARI LY AN
4 APPROPRI ATE USE OF THE PROPOFOL BUT AN APPROPRI ATE
5 ADMI NI STRATI ON TECHNI QUE.
6 Q DI D THERE COME A TI ME - - AT THE TI ME THAT
7 MR. J ACKSON PASSED AWAY I N J UNE 2009, WAS HE BEI NG - -
8 DI D YOU SEE EVI DENCE THAT HE WAS BEI NG GI VEN PROPOFOL
9 I N AN APPROPRI ATE SETTI NG?
10 A NO, HE WAS GI VI NG - - HE WAS BEI NG GI VEN
11 PROPOFOL I N AN I NAPPROPRI ATE SETTI NG.
12 Q BY THE WAY, EVEN THOUGH WE KNOWFROM THE
13 RECORD THAT MR. J ACKSON GOT PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP I N HI S
14 HOME I N J UNE 2009, DI D YOU EVER SEE A SI NGLE MEDI CAL
15 RECORD DOCUMENTI NG I T?
16 A I DI D NOT. THERE WAS NO MEDI CAL RECORDS
17 THAT WERE MADE AVAI LABLE TO ME, NOR DI D I - - I ACTUALLY
18 ASKED FOR THEM; AND TO THE BEST OF MY UNDERSTANDI NG,
19 THEY DI D NOT EXI ST.
20 Q DOES I T MEAN - - BECAUSE THERE ARE NO
21 MEDI CAL RECORDS OF - - STRI KE THAT.
22 WERE THERE ANY MEDI CAL RECORDS THAT YOU SAW
23 FOR THE GERMANY - - THE TI ME I N GERMANY?
24 A NO, THERE WERE NONE THAT I SAW.
25 Q SO J UST BECAUSE THERE WEREN' T ANY MEDI CAL
26 RECORDS AVAI LABLE TO YOU TO REVI EWABOUT MR. J ACKSON
27 GETTI NG PROPOFOL I N A NON- SURGI CAL SETTI NG FOR SLEEP,
28 DOES THAT MEAN THAT I T DI DN' T HAPPEN?
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1 A NO, THAT DOES NOT MEAN I T DI DN' T HAPPEN.
2 Q I S I MPROPER USE OF A DRUG, I N YOUR
3 EXPERI ENCE, TYPI CALLY RECORDED I N MEDI CAL RECORDS?
4 A USUALLY NOT, DEPENDI NG ON THE DI FFI CULTI ES.
5 FOR I NSTANCE, I F A PHYSI CI AN WRI TES A - - HAS A NEI GHBOR
6 WHO COMES BY AND ASKS FOR AN ANTI BI OTI C, HE MAY NOT
7 WRI TE THAT. ALTHOUGH THAT I S NOT MEDI CALLY CORRECT,
8 THERE I S SOME SLOPPI NESS I N THAT THAT STI LL EXI STS I N
9 OUR HEALTHCARE SYSTEM, ALTHOUGH LESS AND LESS OVER
10 TI ME.
11 Q AND WHAT ABOUT YOUR PATI ENTS WHO HAVE
12 SELF- - - THE MEDI CAL PROVI DERS YOU' VE TAKEN CARE OF WHO
13 HAVE SELF- ADMI NI STERED PROPOFOL? DO THEY TEND TO - -
14 A THEY DO NOT TAKE A RECORD ON THEMSELVES,
15 NO. YES.
16 Q AND DO YOU HAVE A TI MELI NE CHART THAT SORT
17 OF ADDRESSES MR. J ACKSON' S USE OF PROPOFOL, A POSTER?
18 A I DO.
19 Q WOULD I T BE HELPFUL FOR YOU I F I PUT THAT
20 UP?
21 A YEAH. LET ME SEE I F I CAN REMEMBER WHI CH
22 ONE THAT I S.
23 MS. CAHAN: WE' LL NEED TO GI VE THAT AN EXHI BI T
24 NUMBER. I THI NK THI S WI LL BE 13567.
25 MAY I APPROACH, YOUR HONOR, J UST TO PUT UP
26 THE - -
27 THE COURT: YES.
28 Q BY MS. CAHAN: DO YOU HAVE A SMALL VERSI ON
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1 OF THAT THERE?
2 A I DO.
3 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, FOR THI S ONE, LI KE WE HAD
4 LAST WEEK, WE HAVE 8 AND A HALF BY 11 COPI ES TO HAND
5 OUT I F THAT WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR ANY OF THE J URORS.
6 THE COURT: YOU MAY.
7 MS. CAHAN: MAY I PROCEED, YOUR HONOR?
8 THE COURT: YES.
9 Q BY MS. CAHAN: SO, DR. EARLEY, DI D YOU SEE
10 EVI DENCE I N THE RECORD THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS WARNED BY
11 MEDI CAL PROFESSI ONALS THAT PROPOFOL SHOULD NOT BE
12 ADMI NI STERED OUTSI DE OF A MEDI CAL SETTI NG?
13 A ABSOLUTELY.
14 AND NOT ONLY WAS HE WARNED, HE WAS ALSO
15 WARNED REPEATEDLY; AND I N THI S CHART, YOU SEE SOME OF
16 THOSE TI MES.
17 Q AND DO YOU ALSO HAVE A SLI DE ABOUT WARNI NGS
18 ON PROPOFOL AT HOME?
19 A I DO.
20 MS. CAHAN: AND THAT WOULD BE EXHI BI T
21 NUMBER 13568. I T' S SLI DE 6.
22 ANY OBJ ECTI ON?
23 MR. BOYLE: NO OBJ ECTI ON, OTHER THAN THE ONES
24 PRI OR.
25 THE COURT: YES. THOSE ARE PRESERVED.
26 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
27 Q BY MS. CAHAN: AND CAN YOU TELL US WHAT' S
28 REFLECTED I N THI S SLI DE, PLEASE?
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1 A YES.
2 ON THI S SLI DE, THROUGH TI ME - - AND THE
3 FI RST ONE I S FROM DR. CHRI STI NE QUI NN, WHO WAS A DENTAL
4 ANESTHETI ST. WHEN ASKED BY MR. J ACKSON I F SHE WOULD
5 ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP, SHE SAI D I T' S NOT PROPER
6 TO GI VE PROPOFOL OUTSI DE OF THE MEDI CAL SETTI NG.
7 DR. BARNEY VAN VALI N SAI D TO HI M, ACCORDI NG
8 TO HI S DEPOSI TI ON, THI S STUFF I S DANGEROUS. ACTUALLY,
9 HE WASN' T COMPLETELY CLEAR ABOUT I T AND TALKED WI TH AN
10 ANESTHESI OLOGI ST J UST TO FI RM UP HI S OPI NI ON.
11 BUT HE SAI D THI S STUFF I S DANGEROUS, THE
12 ONLY PLACE I T SHOULD EVER BE USED I S I N AN OPERATI NG
13 ROOM WI TH AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST THAT SPECI ALI ZES I N I T.
14 AND THAT WAS I N THE 2002/ 2003 ERA. AND THEN
15 CHERI LYN LEE, " I REMEMBER TELLI NG HI M THAT I T WASN' T
16 SOMETHI NG HE WANTED TO USE AT HOME. "
17 YOU ALSO SEE ON THI S CHART HERE THAT - -
18 THAT MS. ROWE ALSO SAYS TO HI M, YOU KNOW- - WARNS HI M,
19 ACCORDI NG TO HER TRI AL TESTI MONY, THAT SHE SAI D TO
20 HI M - - I NSTRUCTED HI M NOT TO USE PROPOFOL.
21 Q AND THAT WAS BACK I N 1993?
22 A I ' M SORRY. THAT WAS I N 1993.
23 Q AND THAT WASN' T FOR - - ABOUT PROPOFOL FOR
24 SLEEP, RI GHT? SHE WAS J UST CONCERNED ABOUT THE
25 PROPOFOL GENERALLY?
26 A CORRECT, BECAUSE HE WAS USI NG I T QUI TE
27 OFTEN FOR - -
28 Q J UST TO MAKE SURE I ' M FOLLOWI NG YOU HERE,
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1 SO I N YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORD, I N 1998 OR 1999, HE
2 ASKED DR. QUI NN TO GI VE HI M PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP, AND SHE
3 SAYS NO, I T' S NOT PROPER OUTSI DE OF THE MEDI CAL
4 SETTI NG?
5 A RI GHT.
6 Q AND THEN FOUR YEARS LATER, I N 2002 OR 2003,
7 HE ASKED DR. VAN VALI N AGAI N TO - - FOR PROPOFOL FOR
8 SLEEP, RI GHT?
9 A CORRECT.
10 Q THAT WAS THE CONTEXT FOR THI S STATEMENT?
11 A THAT' S CORRECT, THAT CONTEXT WAS THERE.
12 Q AND THEN AGAI N SI X OR SEVEN YEARS LATER, HE
13 ASKED CHERI LYN LEE TO ARRANGE PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP FOR
14 HI M?
15 A YES.
16 Q AND, AGAI N, THI S I S A THI RD PERSON NOW
17 TELLI NG HI M NOT APPROPRI ATE TO USE AT HOME?
18 A YES; SO HE HAD SUFFI CI ENT WARNI NG OVER A
19 PROLONGED PERI OD OF TI ME.
20 Q AND WERE THEY RI GHT? I S I T DANGEROUS?
21 MR. BOYLE: I MOVE TO STRI KE THE STATEMENT. HE' S
22 NOT AN EXPERT ON WHAT' S A SUFFI CI ENT WARNI NG.
23 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED. THE ANSWER I S STRI CKEN.
24 Q BY MS. CAHAN: WERE THEY RI GHT THAT
25 PROPOFOL SHOULDN' T BE USED OUTSI DE OF AN APPROPRI ATE
26 MEDI CAL SETTI NG?
27 A ABSOLUTELY.
28 Q AND WHAT DOES THI S SERI ES OF TESTI MONY SAY
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1 TO YOU ABOUT MR. J ACKSON' S BEHAVI OR WI TH RESPECT TO
2 PROPOFOL?
3 A WELL, WE CAN' T PROJ ECT WHAT HE WAS THI NKI NG
4 ABOUT; BUT WE CAN CERTAI NLY SAY THAT HE HEARD THAT
5 PROPOFOL WAS DANGEROUS, AND THAT HE CONTI NUED TO SEEK
6 I T OUT, AND HE TALKED TO MULTI PLE PROVI DERS REQUESTI NG
7 PROPOFOL OVER A PROLONGED PERI OD OF TI ME.
8 Q I N YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORDS AND
9 TESTI MONY, DI D YOU SEE EVI DENCE THAT ANY MEDI CAL
10 PROFESSI ONALS EXPLAI NED TO MR. J ACKSON THAT PROPOFOL
11 ANESTHESI A I S NOT THE SAME THI NG AS NATURAL SLEEP?
12 A YES.
13 THERE WERE SEVERAL COMMENTS ABOUT THAT; AND
14 I THI NK THERE' S A SLI DE THAT SHOWS THAT, AS WELL. I
15 THI NK I T' S THE NEXT SLI DE.
16 MS. CAHAN: THAT WOULD BE 15369.
17 ANY OBJ ECTI ON? SLI DE 7.
18 MR. BOYLE: THANK YOU. NO OBJ ECTI ON.
19 THE WI TNESS: AGAI N, FROM DR. CHRI STI NE QUI NN,
20 STATES THAT, " I TOLD HI M THAT THE SLEEP YOU GET WI TH
21 ANESTHESI A I S NOT REAL SLEEP. " AND THI S WAS PART OF
22 THE SAME CONVERSATI ON I N 1998 WHEN HE ASKED FOR THAT.
23 AND THEN CHERI LYN LEE I N 2009, I REMEMBER TELLS HI M
24 THAT PROPOFOL WAS DEFI NI TELY NOT A MEDI CATI ON FOR
25 I NSOMNI A.
26 Q BY MS. CAHAN: SO, AGAI N, THERE' S A
27 TEN- YEAR GAP HERE?
28 A TEN- YEAR GAP THERE, YES.
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1 Q AND DO YOU RECALL BOTH DR. QUI NN AND
2 MS. LEE TESTI FYI NG THAT MR. J ACKSON TOLD THEM PEOPLE
3 HAD TOLD HI M PROPOFOL WAS SAFE I F DONE PROPERLY AND I T
4 WAS OKAY TO USE I N THAT WAY FOR SLEEP?
5 A THAT WAS PART OF THE CONVERSATI ONS FROM - -
6 HI S RESPONSES, THAT I T WAS SAFE I F GI VEN PROPERLY.
7 Q DI D YOU SEE ANYTHI NG I N ANY OF THE RECORDS
8 OR TESTI MONY YOU REVI EWED THAT CONFI RMED WHO TOLD
9 MR. J ACKSON THAT PROPOFOL WAS OKAY TO USE FOR SLEEP?
10 A I COULD NOT FI ND THAT. AS A MATTER OF
11 FACT, THAT WAS A - - I TRI ED TO LOOK FOR I T BECAUSE I T
12 WAS - - I T TWEAKED MY I NTEREST, BUT I COULD NOT FI ND I T.
13 Q SO APART FROM MR. J ACKSON' S USE OF PROPOFOL
14 FOR SLEEP, FOR I NSOMNI A, DI D YOU SEE ANY OTHER EXAMPLES
15 I N YOUR REVI EWOF THE TESTI MONY AND RECORDS OF TI MES
16 WHEN MR. J ACKSON USED PROPOFOL I N AN I NAPPROPRI ATE OR
17 ATYPI CAL WAY FOR MEDI CAL PROCEDURES?
18 A WELL, HE DI D CERTAI NLY RECEI VE GENERAL
19 ANESTHESI A FOR PROCEDURES THAT OTHER PEOPLE MI GHT NOT,
20 AND I THI NK HI S STATEMENT ABOUT THAT WOULD BE WHI CH - -
21 WHI CH THE PROVI DERS SAI D, MANY OF THE PROVI DERS SAI D,
22 AND THE - - HI S - - I THI NK THE COMMENT WAS GENERALLY
23 THAT HE MI GHT HAVE HAD A LOWPAI N THRESHOLD.
24 Q AND WHAT ABOUT MR. J ACKSON' S BEHAVI ORS
25 AROUND PROPOFOL? DI D HE HAVE A NAME - - A SPECI AL NAME
26 FOR PROPOFOL?
27 A HE DI D.
28 HE CALLED PROPOFOL MI LK, A COMMON THI NG
866 299-5127
15793
1 THAT PEOPLE DO, AN AFFECTI ON NAME TOWARDS A COMPOUND.
2 Q I DI DN' T CATCH THAT.
3 A WHEN PEOPLE - - WHEN PEOPLE ARE USI NG, AND
4 I T HAS POSI TI VE ATTACHMENT TO I T, THEY OFTEN GI VE I T
5 NAMES.
6 MR. BOYLE: MOVE TO STRI KE; CALLS FOR
7 SPECULATI ON.
8 THE COURT: MOTI ON GRANTED, THE ANSWER I S
9 STRI CKEN.
10 Q BY MS. CAHAN: I N YOUR EXPERI ENCE I N
11 WORKI NG WI TH PEOPLE WHO' VE DEVELOPED ADDI CTI ONS, DO
12 THEY OFTEN NI CKNAME DRUGS?
13 A THAT' S CORRECT.
14 Q CAN YOU GI VE US SOME EXAMPLES OF THAT?
15 A SURE.
16 THERE' S LOTS OF - - I MEAN, PROBABLY MOST
17 PEOPLE HAVE HEARD ABOUT I T. YOU KNOW, HEROI N I S CALLED
18 J UNK, OR SOMETHI NG LI KE THAT. THERE ARE LOTS OF
19 DI FFERENT DRUGS THAT - - THAT - - MY YOUNG ADULTS CALL
20 OXYCONTI N OXI ES, OR ROXI CET, THEY CALL I T ROXI ES. SO
21 THERE ARE ALL SORTS OF DI FFERENT NAMES, AND THAT' S PART
22 OF WHAT HAPPENS TO PEOPLE.
23 Q AND DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT
24 MR. J ACKSON PERSONALLY POSSESSED PROPOFOL AT ANY POI NT?
25 A YES.
26 ACTUALLY, I N 2002, FROM DR. VAN VALI N' S
27 TESTI MONY, HE STATED THAT MR. J ACKSON CAME OUT WI TH A
28 BOX OF PROPOFOL AT THE TI ME.
866 299-5127
15794
1 ACTUALLY, DR. VAN VALI N DI DN' T EVEN KNOW
2 WHAT I T WAS. BUT HE CAME OUT WI TH A BOX OF PROPOFOL
3 AND SAI D, " HERE, YOU - - I ' D LI KE YOU TO ADMI NI STER I T,
4 AND HERE I S - - HERE I S THE COMPOUND, HERE I S - - " HE HAD
5 A BOX OF I T I N HI S HOME AT NEVERLAND.
6 Q AND ARE THOSE THI NGS THAT ARE CONSI STENT
7 WI TH - - I KNOWYOU DON' T HAVE AN OPI NI ON TO A
8 REASONABLE DEGREE OF MEDI CAL CERTAI NTY THAT MR. J ACKSON
9 WAS ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL, BUT ARE THOSE BEHAVI ORS AND
10 TRAI TS THAT ARE CONSI STENT, I N YOUR EXPERI ENCE, WI TH
11 ABUSE OF PROPOFOL?
12 MR. PANI SH: OBJ ECTI ON. THERE' S NO FOUNDATI ON.
13 HE' S ALREADY SAI D HE HAS NO OPI NI ON I N THAT REGARD, AND
14 " CONSI STENT" DOESN' T RI SE TO THE STANDARD OF THE LEGAL
15 CRI TERI A TO GI VE SUCH AN OPI NI ON.
16 MR. PUTNAM: YOUR HONOR, HE I NDI CATED THAT HE
17 USED THE DRUG, HE J UST DI DN' T KNOWI F HE WAS ADDI CTED,
18 AND HE I NDI CATED THI S WAS CONSI STENT WI TH ABUSE.
19 MR. BOYLE: HE DI DN' T OFFER THI S OPI NI ON I N HI S
20 DEPOSI TI ON.
21 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY ANSWER.
22 Q BY MS. CAHAN: I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU' RE NOT
23 OFFERI NG AN OPI NI ON TO A DEGREE OF MEDI CAL CERTAI NTY
24 THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL; BUT ARE
25 THESE BEHAVI ORS THAT WE' RE TALKI NG ABOUT, USI NG I T
26 OUTSI DE OF AN APPROPRI ATE MEDI CAL SETTI NG, A NI CKNAME
27 FOR THE DRUG, AND KEEPI NG I T AT HOME, THI NGS THAT ARE
28 CONSI STENT WI TH PROPOFOL ABUSE THAT YOU' VE SEEN I N YOUR
866 299-5127
15795
1 HEALTHCARE PROVI DER PATI ENTS?
2 A THEY ARE, AND - - THEY ARE.
3 Q GOI NG BACK TO YOUR SLI DE 4, I SEE THE THI RD
4 FACTOR HERE THAT' S ONE OF THE RI SK FACTORS OF PROPOFOL
5 FOR MR. J ACKSON THAT YOU PUT TOGETHER I S WHO
6 ADMI NI STERED THE PROPOFOL, NOT TRAI NED I N ADMI NI STERI NG
7 ANESTHESI A.
8 CAN YOU J UST EXPLAI N BRI EFLY WHAT YOU MEAN
9 BY THAT?
10 A AND THAT' S PART OF WHAT WE SEE I N THE
11 HI STORY. THERE WERE CONTRASTI NG TI MES WHEN I T WAS
12 APPARENTLY - - ALTHOUGH THERE ARE NO MEDI CAL RECORDS, I T
13 WAS APPARENTLY ADMI NI STERED I N A SAFE SETTI NG; AND THEN
14 LATER ON, I T WAS ADMI NI STERED I N A LESS SAFE SETTI NG.
15 I N 2009, I T WAS ADMI NI STERED BY I NDI VI DUALS
16 THAT WERE NOT - - BY CONRAD MURRAY, WHO DI D NOT HAVE THE
17 TRAI NI NG TO ADMI NI STER ANESTHESI A, AND THE EQUI PMENT
18 WAS NOT PRESENT AT THAT TI ME. AND I THI NK THERE WAS A
19 SLI DE ON THAT, AS WELL, I F WE WANT TO DO THAT.
20 Q BEFORE WE GET TO THAT, I J UST WANT TO
21 EXPLORE THI S A LI TTLE BI T.
22 SO HAVE YOU REVI EWED TESTI MONY AND RECORDS
23 ABOUT DR. MURRAY' S TRAI NI NG AS A PHYSI CI AN?
24 A I HAVE.
25 Q AND WHAT TYPE OF DOCTOR WAS DR. MURRAY?
26 A DR. MURRAY WAS I NI TI ALLY TRAI NED AS AN
27 I NTERNAL MEDI CI NE SPECI ALI ST, AND WENT ON TO HAVE
28 TRAI NI NG AS A CARDI OLOGI ST.
866 299-5127
15796
1 Q DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT HE HAD
2 SPECI AL TRAI NI NG I N ADMI NI STERI NG ANESTHESI A?
3 A NO.
4 Q WOULD YOU EXPECT A CARDI OLOGI ST TO BE
5 ADMI NI STERI NG THAT AS PART OF THEI R LOCAL PRACTI CE?
6 A NO.
7 Q WHAT ABOUT AN I NTERNI ST? WOULD YOU EXPECT
8 AN I NTERNI ST TO ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL AS PART OF THEI R
9 GENERAL EXPERI ENCE?
10 A NO.
11 Q BASED ON THE RECORDS THAT YOU REVI EWED, WAS
12 MR. J ACKSON FAMI LI AR WI TH THE TYPES OF DOCTORS THAT
13 TYPI CALLY ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL?
14 A HE WAS.
15 AND, I N FACT, HE WENT TO ASK SEVERAL - - THE
16 RECORD REFLECTS THAT HE WENT AND ASKED SEVERAL
17 ANESTHESI OLOGI STS TO DO - - TO ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL.
18 Q AND DO YOU HAVE A SLI DE ABOUT WHETHER
19 MR. J ACKSON' S - - WHETHER MR. J ACKSON WAS I NFORMED ABOUT
20 WHO I S PROPER TO ADMI NI STER ANESTHESI A?
21 A I DO, AND THAT' S MY NUMBER 9.
22 MS. CAHAN: I HAVE I T AT 8 I N MI NE. I T' S TI TLED
23 " WARNI NGS TO MR. J ACKSON, PROPOFOL MUST BE ADMI NI STERED
24 BY SPECI ALI STS. " THAT WOULD BE 13570.
25 ANY OBJ ECTI ON?
26 MR. BOYLE: NO.
27 Q BY MS. CAHAN: CAN YOU EXPLAI N FOR US WHAT
28 WE HAVE HERE?
866 299-5127
15797
1 A WELL, THESE ARE, AGAI N, THE SAME QUOTES
2 THAT GO TO THI S I SSUE ABOUT DR. VAN VALI N I N 2003
3 SAYI NG AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST THAT SPECI ALI ZES I N I T
4 SHOULD ADMI NI STER THAT.
5 AND THEN WI TH CHERI LYN LEE WHEN HE ASKED I F
6 SHE COULD HELP ARRANGE SOMEONE TO ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL
7 TO HI M, SHE SAI D I T CAN ONLY BE USED BY, YOU KNOW, AN
8 ANESTHESI OLOGI ST. AND MR. J ACKSON' S RESPONSE WAS,
9 " WELL, CAN YOU BRI NG ME AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST?" SO HE
10 DI D UNDERSTAND THAT.
11 MR. PANI SH: I MOVE TO STRI KE AS SPECULATI ON AS
12 TO WHAT MR. J ACKSON UNDERSTOOD.
13 THE COURT: OKAY. SUSTAI NED.
14 MR. PANI SH: THERE' S NO FOUNDATI ON.
15 THE COURT: THE LAST SENTENCE I S STRI CKEN.
16 MS. CAHAN: OKAY.
17 Q DR. EARLEY, YOU SAWFROM MS. LEE' S
18 TESTI MONY THAT AS OF APRI L 2009, HE WAS SAYI NG, " CAN
19 YOU GET ME AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST TO ADMI NI STER PROPOFOL?"
21 Q AND I THI NK WE' VE ESTABLI SHED THI S, BUT WAS
22 DR. MURRAY AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST?
23 A NO.
24 Q I S I T RI SKY TO ALLOWSOMEONE TO ADMI NI STER
25 ANESTHESI A I F THAT PERSON I S NOT PROPERLY TRAI NED?
26 A I T I S.
27 Q AND I S THAT THE STEEP DOSE RESPONSE CURVE
28 THAT WE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE?
866 299-5127
15798
1 A THAT' S AT LEAST ONE OF THE MANY FACTORS
2 THAT ONE HAS TO CONSI DER, YES.
3 Q WHAT ARE OTHER FACTORS THAT ARE I MPORTANT
4 THERE?
5 A I F YOU' RE NOT TRAI NED I N USI NG, FOR
6 I NSTANCE, THE EQUI PMENT, THE CAPI CNOGRAPH ( PHONETI C) ,
7 THE OXYGEN DELI VERY SYSTEM - - I F YOU DON' T UNDERSTAND
8 THE SI GNS OF APNEA WHEN SOMEONE I S UNDER ANESTHESI A,
9 THOSE ARE THE KI NDS OF THI NGS YOU LEARN I N TRAI NI NG.
10 I N TRAI NI NG, YOU WATCH THAT SORT OF THI NG.
11 Q AND GOI NG BACK TO YOUR SLI DE 4, HAVE WE
12 COVERED WHAT YOU WANTED TO DI SCUSS WI TH RESPECT TO THAT
13 THI RD POI NT?
14 A YES.
15 Q SO LOOKI NG AT THE FI RST ONE, I T SAYS " WHAT
16 ELSE WAS ADMI NI STERED, SYNERGY WI TH OTHER DRUGS. " AND
17 I THI NK YOU SAI D EARLI ER SYNERGY I S - - TO MAKE I T
18 SI MPLE, I S ONE PLUS ONE CAN EQUAL THREE WI TH DRUGS?
19 A CORRECT.
20 Q AND WHAT DO YOU MEAN HERE ABOUT WHAT ELSE
21 WAS ADMI NI STERED? WHAT' S THAT ABOUT?
22 A WELL, MR. J ACKSON, AT THE TI ME OF HI S
23 DEATH, HAD ANOTHER TYPE OF DRUG ON BOARD. HE HAD
24 BENZODI AZEPI NES - - THREE DI FFERENT TYPES OF
25 BENZODI AZEPI NES I N HI S BODY FLUI DS.
26 AND, ACTUALLY, BENZODI AZEPI NES WORK ON THE
27 SAME RECEPTOR COMPLEX AS PROPOFOL DOES, SO THEY ARE
28 MORE THAN ADDI TI VE I N CHANGI NG THAT - - THE BRAI N' S
866 299-5127
15799
1 RESPONSE, AND - - AND THEY DEEPENED THE ANESTHESI A.
2 AND, AGAI N, I F YOU - - I F YOU DON' T KNOWALL
3 THE DRUGS SOMEONE I S ON OR YOU' RE ADMI NI STERI NG
4 MULTI PLE DRUGS, YOU RUN THE RI SK OF I NADVERTENTLY
5 DEEPENI NG THE ANESTHESI A, GOI NG UP THAT DOSE RESPONSE
6 CURVE, AND PRI MARI LY WHAT HAPPENS I S THE BREATHI NG
7 CENTERS SHUT DOWN.
8 Q SO AT THE TI ME MR. J ACKSON PASSED AWAY, HE
9 HAD BENZODI AZEPI NES I N HI S SYSTEM AS WELL AS PROPOFOL?
11 Q AND DI D YOU SEE EVI DENCE AND TESTI MONY THAT
12 I NDI CATED THAT DR. MURRAY ADMI NI STERED OR PRESCRI BED
13 THOSE BENZODI AZEPI NES TO MR. J ACKSON?
14 A I THI NK I T - - I F MY RECOLLECTI ON I S
15 CORRECT, ONE OF THEM WAS PRESCRI BED BY DR. MURRAY,
16 AND - - BUT THERE WERE OTHER BENZODI AZEPI NES PRESCRI BED
17 BY OTHER PHYSI CI ANS.
18 Q AND CAN YOU TELL FROM THE AUTOPSY REPORT I F
19 SOMEBODY HAS - - WHO GAVE SOMEONE THE DRUGS?
20 A NO, YOU CANNOT. YOU CAN ONLY TELL WHI CH
21 DRUGS ARE PRESENT.
22 Q DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE OR TESTI MONY TO
23 SUGGEST THAT DR. MURRAY EVER PRESCRI BED OPI OI DS - - ANY
24 OPI OI DS TO MR. J ACKSON?
25 A I DI D NOT.
26 Q AND DEMEROL I S AN OPI OI D, RI GHT?
27 A DEMEROL I S AN OPI OI D.
28 Q DI D YOU SEE EVI DENCE THAT MR. J ACKSON, I N
866 299-5127
15800
1 J UNE 2009, WAS RECEI VI NG OPI OI DS FROM ANY SOURCE?
2 A YES.
3 I N - - I N THAT YEAR, HE DI D RECEI VE OPI OI DS
4 FROM DR. KLEI N; AND SO THAT I NFORMATI ON WOULD BE
5 HELPFUL, OBVI OUSLY, THAT HE WAS - - HE WAS TAKI NG
6 OPI OI DS AT THAT TI ME.
7 Q WERE THERE ANY OPI OI DS I N HI S - - FOUND I N
8 HI S SYSTEM AT AUTOPSY?
9 A THERE WERE NOT.
10 Q BUT HE WAS RECEI VI NG THEM I N J UNE 2009?
12 Q SO ASSUMI NG THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS GETTI NG
13 OPI OI DS FROM DR. KLEI N PERI ODI CALLY I N J UNE 2009, AND
14 ASSUMI NG THAT THAT HAD CONTI NUED, I S THERE A RI SK POSED
15 BY THE OPI OI DS ADMI NI STERED OR PRESCRI BED BY DR. KLEI N
16 WI TH RESPECT TO THE OTHER TYPES OF DRUGS THAT
17 MR. J ACKSON WAS GETTI NG FROM DR. MURRAY?
18 A YES.
19 AND I T' S - - I T' S - - THI S I SN' T A HARD
20 SCI ENCE BECAUSE THE I NTERACTI ON DI FFERS ON THE
21 METABOLI SM OF ONE PERSON VERSUS ANOTHER. BUT
22 BENZODI AZEPI NES REMAI N I N THE SYSTEM FOR A LONG TI ME;
23 SO I F YOU GET PROPOFOL WHEN THERE ARE BENZODI AZEPI NES
24 I N THE SYSTEM, YOU COULD GO I NTO A DEEPER, BASI CALLY,
25 ANESTHETI C, ANESTHESI A STATE, YOU COULD STOP BREATHI NG.
26 THE OPPOSI TE I S TRUE, AS WELL. I F YOU GET
27 OPI ATES WHI LE YOU' RE ON BENZODI AZEPI NES, OR I F YOU ARE
28 CLOSE UPON THE TI ME WHEN PROPOFOL I S ADMI NI STERED, THAT
866 299-5127
15801
1 COULD AFFECT YOUR RESPONSE TO THE OPI ATE DRUGS. SO
2 THERE' S MULTI PLE I NTERACTI ONS, ALL OF - - AND THE SUM OF
3 THAT I S I T' S UNPREDI CTABLE.
4 Q SO ANY OF THOSE THREE DRUGS I N COMBI NATI ON
5 COULD HAVE THI S SYNERGY THAT MI GHT CREATE AN EFFECT
6 THAT' S LARGER THAN WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT OF ONE DRUG
7 PLUS ONE DRUG?
8 A CORRECT.
9 AND THAT' S BECAUSE ALL OF THESE DRUGS
10 AFFECT VERY DEEP - - WHAT' S CALLED THE PONTI NE BREATHI NG
11 CENTER, THE CENTER I N YOUR BRAI N THAT REGULATES YOUR
12 BREATHI NG.
13 AND ALL OF THESE DRUGS AFFECT THAT AREA,
14 BUT I N DI FFERENT TYPES OF WAYS, AND SO THAT YOU HAVE
15 THE EFFECT OF POSSI BLY STOPPI NG BREATHI NG WHEN THESE
16 DRUGS ARE COMBI NED.
17 Q SO I WANT YOU TO ASSUME FOR THE PURPOSES OF
18 THI S NEXT QUESTI ON THAT DR. MURRAY AND DR. KLEI N WERE
19 NOT AWARE OF EACH OTHER' S MEDI CAL CARE OF MR. J ACKSON.
20 OKAY? CAN YOU ASSUME THAT?
21 A OKAY.
22 Q I F THAT WERE THE CASE, WOULD THAT PRESENT
23 AN EVEN GREATER RI SK THAN I F MR. J ACKSON WAS GETTI NG
24 ALL THREE TYPES OF MEDI CATI ONS FROM THE SAME SI NGLE
25 PHYSI CI AN?
26 A ABSOLUTELY, BECAUSE I F - - I F YOU KNOW- - I F
27 ONE PHYSI CI AN KNOWS HE' S GI VI NG MULTI PLE MEDI CATI ONS,
28 EVEN AN I NTERNAL MEDI CI NE PHYSI CI AN - - I DON' T MEAN TO
866 299-5127
15802
1 SAY " EVEN, " BUT, YOU KNOW, I NTERNAL MEDI CI NE PHYSI CI ANS
2 KNOWABOUT DRUG- TO- DRUG I NTERACTI ONS AND WOULD THI NK,
3 " OH, I ' VE GI VEN OPI ATE DRUGS, NOWI HAVE HI M ON - - NOW
4 I HAVE GI VEN HI M PROPOFOL, I NEED TO WORRY ABOUT THOSE
5 DOSI NG, I NEED TO BE MORE CAREFUL ABOUT MY DOSI NG. "
6 SO I F THAT I NFORMATI ON I S KNOWN, THEN THE
7 PHYSI CI AN CAN MODULATE THEI R RESPONSE OR THEI R
8 ADMI NI STRATI ON TECHNI QUE. I F I T' S UNKNOWN, THEN I T' S
9 PRETTY MUCH A CRAP SHOOT.
10 Q AND DI D YOU SEE DR. LEVOUNI S' S TESTI MONY
11 ABOUT SECRECY AND DOCTOR SHOPPI NG?
12 A I DI D.
13 Q AND THE SECRECY I N DOCTOR SHOPPI NG
14 I NCREASED THE RI SK OF A PROBLEM OCCURRI NG BECAUSE OF
15 DRUG SYNERGY?
16 A ABSOLUTELY.
17 Q SO THE NEXT FACTOR ON YOUR SLI DE HERE I S
18 PHYSI CAL RI SKS, SI ZE OF J ACKSON' S TONGUE, RI SK OF BLOOD
19 CLOTS.
20 WHAT DO YOU MEAN THERE?
21 A WELL, THI S I S ONE OF THOSE - - ACTUALLY, THE
22 SI ZE OF MI CHAEL J ACKSON - - EVERYONE - -
23 MR. PANI SH: YOUR HONOR, I ' M GOI NG TO OBJ ECT TO
24 THE FOUNDATI ON OF THI S WI TNESS AS TO THE ADMI NI STRATI ON
25 OF PROPOFOL OR ANESTHESI A AND THE RI SK ASSOCI ATED WI TH
26 PEOPLE' S PHYSI OLOGI CAL BODY BECAUSE HE' S NOT QUALI FI ED
27 ON THAT AREA, HAVI NG NEVER GI VEN THE DRUG OR KNOWI NG
28 HOWTO GI VE I T OR BEI NG TRAI NED I N HOWTO GI VE I T.
866 299-5127
15803
1 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, THAT' S NOT TRUE; AND I F
2 THERE NEEDS TO BE SOME VOI R DI RE ABOUT HI S EXPERI ENCE
3 WI TH PROPOFOL AND PROPOFOL AS AN ANESTHETI C, THAT' S - -
4 MR. PANI SH: I ' LL BE HAPPY TO VOI R DI RE.
5 THE COURT: DI D HE GI VE TESTI MONY ON ANYTHI NG
6 LI KE THAT?
7 MS. CAHAN: YES. HE' S GOI NG TO TALK ABOUT THE
8 SPECI FI C TESTI MONY FROM OTHERS HERE. HE ALSO HAS
9 PERSONAL EXPERI ENCE.
10 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY CONTI NUE.
11 Q BY MS. CAHAN: YOU WERE EXPLAI NI NG THE
12 PHYSI CAL RI SK OF THE SI ZE OF MR. J ACKSON' S TONGUE?
13 A ONE OF THE THI NGS THAT - - EVERYONE' S TONGUE
14 I S A DI FFERENT SI ZE. I KNOWYOU THI NK ABOUT - - THAT' S
15 THE WAY I T I S. SOME PEOPLE' S TONGUES ARE LARGER THAN
16 OTHERS' , AND WHEN YOU GO UNDER ANY TYPE OF ANESTHESI A,
17 WHAT HAPPENS I S THE WHOLE BACK OF THE THROAT RELAXES.
18 THAT' S PART OF THAT MUSCULAR RELAXATI ON.
19 I F YOU HAVE A LARGE TONGUE, THE TONGUE
20 FALLS BACKWARDS I NTO THE OROPHARYNX AND ESSENTI ALLY
21 OCCLUDES OR BLOCKS OFF THE BREATHI NG TUBE. AND, I N
22 FACT, WE HAVE - - I N DR. ADAMS' TESTI MONY, HE STATED
23 THAT THI S WAS A COMMON OCCURRENCE. THI S WAS NOT A RARE
24 THI NG, AND HE ACTUALLY OBSERVED THAT TO OCCUR.
25 SO THE LARGE TONGUE AND HI S FREQUENT
26 ANESTHESI A FROM AN ANESTHESI A PROVI DER - - WHAT
27 DR. ADAMS DI D I S HE WOULD NOTE I T. HE WOULD, YOU KNOW,
28 EI THER PUT A SPECI AL - - A SPECI AL BREATHI NG AREA THAT
866 299-5127
15804
1 BASI CALLY PULLS THE TONGUE FORWARD OR HE WOULD ROTATE
2 THE HEAD OR HE WOULD - - SO HE WOULD KEEP THE TONGUE
3 FROM OCCLUDI NG THE AI RWAY.
4 AND THAT' S, AGAI N, SOMETHI NG A TRAI NED
5 ANESTHESI A PROVI DER WOULD KNOWHOWTO DO. BUT SOMEONE
6 WHO I S NOT TRAI NED WOULD NOT KNOWTHAT AND DI DN' T - -
7 YOU KNOW, PART OF AN ANESTHESI A PHYSI CAL EVALUATI ON I S
8 TO LOOK AT THE SI ZE OF THE TONGUE; SO THAT DI D NOT
9 OCCUR, AS FAR AS WE KNOW, WI TH DR. MURRAY.
10 Q SO DR. ADAMS TESTI FI ED THAT HE GAVE
11 MR. J ACKSON ANESTHESI A FOUR TI MES FOR DENTAL
12 PROCEDURES; I S THAT RI GHT?
14 Q AND DO YOU REMEMBER HI M SAYI NG WHETHER HE
15 COULD PUT I N ONE OF THOSE BREATHI NG TUBES I N ADVANCE
16 FOR THE KI ND OF PROCEDURE THAT HE WAS GI VI NG ANESTHESI A
17 FOR?
18 A HE COULD NOT BECAUSE I T WAS AN ORAL
19 PROCEDURE; AND I F YOU PUT THE BREATHI NG TUBE I N, I T
20 GETS I N THE WAY OF THE ACTUAL DENTAL PROCEDURE SO THAT
21 THE SURGERY CAN' T GO ON TO THE TEETH, SO HE HAD TO ACT
22 A DI FFERENT WAY.
23 Q SO I F SOMEBODY I S NOT HAVI NG ORAL SURGERY
24 AND THEY HAVE A BI G TONGUE, THAT MI GHT BE SOMETHI NG
25 WHERE THERE' S AN AI RWAY, SOMETHI NG COULD - - PHYSI CALLY
26 LI KE A TUBE PUT I N I N ADVANCE TO PROTECT SOMEBODY' S
27 AI RWAY?
28 A CORRECT.
866 299-5127
15805
1 Q BUT DR. ADAMS DI D NOT?
2 A HE DI D NOT DO THAT BECAUSE OF THE ORAL
3 SURGERY, RI GHT.
4 Q AND YOU' VE REVI EWED THE TESTI MONY OF
5 MR. SENEFF, THE E. M. T. ?
6 A I DI D.
7 Q AND THE - - THE AUTOPSY REPORTS AND RELATED
8 RECORDS ABOUT MR. J ACKSON' S PASSI NG?
9 A I DI D.
10 Q DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT THERE WAS A
11 BREATHI NG TUBE EI THER I N PLACE FOR MR. J ACKSON ON
12 J UNE 25TH OR AMONG THE MATERI ALS COLLECTED BY THE
13 POLI CE AT HI S HOME?
14 A I SAWNOTHI NG TO SAY THAT THERE WAS AN
15 AI RWAY I N PLACE, NOR WAS THERE AN AI RWAY PRESENT I N HI S
16 HOME WHERE HE WAS GI VEN ANESTHESI A.
17 Q OKAY. SO J UST TO MAKE SURE I UNDERSTAND
18 I T, THE PHYSI CAL RI SK OF THE SI ZE OF MR. J ACKSON' S
19 TONGUE YOU' RE TALKI NG ABOUT WAS WI TH RESPECT TO GETTI NG
20 PROPOFOL FROM SOMEONE WHO WASN' T PROPERLY TRAI NED AND
21 NOT I N A PROPER SETTI NG?
22 A CORRECT.
23 Q OKAY. AND CAN YOU EXPLAI N THE RI SK OF
24 BLOOD CLOTS LI STED THERE?
25 A YEAH. THAT' S A LI TTLE BI T TECHNI CAL TOO,
26 BUT HAPPENS A LOT WI TH I NTRAVENOUS DRUG ADDI CTS, I S
27 WHEN YOU GO TO THE HOSPI TAL, THEY TEND TO PUT
28 I NTRAVENOUS LI NES I N YOUR ARMS, AND THERE' S A REASON
866 299-5127
15806
1 FOR THAT.
2 I T' S BECAUSE OF HOWTHE VALVULAR SYSTEM
3 WORKS, HOWTHE BLOOD CLOTTI NG - - HOWTHE RETURN BLOOD
4 FLOWGOES TO THE LUNGS AFTER - - FROM YOUR VEI NS, I F
5 A - - THEY MUCH PREFER THE UPPER ARMS BECAUSE OF THE WAY
6 OF THE MECHANI CS OF THE BLOOD FLOWTHAT RETURNS FROM
7 THE - - FROM THE HANDS AND THE ARMS, I T HAS A LOWER RI SK
8 OF PRODUCI NG CLOTS.
9 I F YOU START USI NG VEI NS I N THE LOWER
10 LEGS - - AND MR. J ACKSON HAD SMALL VEI NS. THAT WAS
11 RECORDED BY MULTI PLE ANESTHESI A PROVI DERS. THEY WERE
12 DI FFI CULT TO STI CK. EVEN TRAI NED ANESTHESI OLOGI STS
13 SUCH AS DR. ADAMS SAI D, " I HAD TO STI CK HI M SOMETI MES
14 ONE OR TWO TI MES, SOMETI MES THREE TI MES. "
15 THAT' S PRETTY UNUSUAL FOR AN
16 ANESTHESI OLOGI ST. AND SO HE HAD TO GO TO - - THERE WERE
17 VEI NS I N THE LOWER LEGS THAT YOU COULD USE FOR THE SAME
18 KI ND OF VENOUS ACCESS. THE DI FFERENCE I S WHEN YOU
19 PLACE A FOREI GN BODY I NSI DE A VEI N I N THE LOWER BODY,
20 THE LEGS, THERE' S A HI GHER PROBABI LI TY OF CLOTS FORMI NG
21 THAT GO UP TO THE LUNGS; AND THEN WHEN THEY STOP THE
22 BLOOD FLOWFOR THE LUNGS, BASI CALLY, YOU DON' T GET ANY
23 OXYGEN TO THE BODY.
24 I ' M SURE MANY OF YOU HAVE HEARD OF THI S
25 TERM, PULMONARY EMBOLI . THAT' S A PULMONARY EMBOLI .
26 ANY KI ND OF I NTRAVENOUS ACCESS TO THE LOWER LEGS HAS
27 HI GHER RI SK OF DEVELOPI NG PULMONARY EMBOLI THAN AN
28 I NTRAVENOUS I N THE ARM.
866 299-5127
15807
1 AND THROUGH NO FAULT OF HI S OWN,
2 MR. J ACKSON DI DN' T HAVE GOOD VENOUS ACCESS I N HI S UPPER
3 BODY, SO WHAT HAPPENED WI TH DR. MURRAY I S THE ACCESS
4 HAD TO GO I NTO HI S LEGS, I NCREASI NG THE RI SK OF
5 PULMONARY EMBOLI , WHI CH I S VERY DANGEROUS AND THE
6 CONSEQUENCE OF I NTRAVENOUS ACCESS TO THE LOWER BODY.
7 MR. PANI SH: I ' D LI KE TO MOVE TO STRI KE THAT LAST
8 PART OF THE TESTI MONY AS TO PULMONARY EMBOLI AND THE
9 RI SKS - - WAY OUT OF THI S EXPERT' S EXPERTI SE AS AN
10 ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE SPECI ALI ST. THI S I S I N THE FI ELD OF
11 ANESTHESI A, AND HOWANESTHESI A I S APPLI ED, AND WHAT' S
12 COMMON FOR ANESTHESI OLOGI STS, AND HOWMANY TI MES THEY
13 HAVE TO I NSERT AN I . V. THERE' S ABSOLUTELY NO
14 FOUNDATI ON FOR THI S WI TNESS I N THAT AREA.
15 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, THI S MAY BE SOMETHI NG WE
16 NEED TO HANDLE AT SI DEBAR SO WE DON' T HAVE SPEAKI NG
17 OBJ ECTI ONS. BUT HE TESTI FI ED AT HI S DEPOSI TI ON ABOUT
18 THE RI SK OF BLOOD CLOTS, I T' S PART OF HI S DI SCLOSED - -
19 THE COURT: HE' S AN M. D. , RI GHT?
20 MR. PUTNAM: YES, YOUR HONOR.
21 THE COURT: OVERRULED. YOU MAY CONTI NUE.
22 Q BY MS. CAHAN: AND, DR. EARLEY, J UST TO
23 CLOSE OUT THI S POI NT, HOWDO YOU KNOWTHAT MR. J ACKSON
24 WAS GETTI NG PROPOFOL BY I . V. I N HI S LEG ON J UNE 24TH,
25 J UNE 25TH?
26 A I FORGOT THAT DETAI L. MY APOLOGI ES.
27 AT THE AUTOPSY, THERE WAS AN ACCESS SI TE I N
28 HI S SAPHENOUS VEI N I N HI S LEG THAT WAS PRESENT; AND SO
866 299-5127
15808
1 WE AT LEAST KNOWON THAT OCCASI ON, I T WAS I N HI S LOWER
2 EXTREMI TY.
3 Q SO THE I . V. OR I . V. SI TE WAS FOUND I N HI S
4 LEG ON J UNE 25TH?
5 A ON THE AUTOPSY AFTER J UNE 25TH, CORRECT.
6 Q LET' S TALK ABOUT THI S LAST BULLET HERE,
7 WHERE I T SAYS " OTHER RI SKS, ACCI DENTS, NONDI SCLOSURE
8 AND SECRECY. " WE TOUCHED A LI TTLE BI T ON THE
9 NONDI SCLOSURE AND SECRECY POI NT A MI NUTE AGO WI TH
10 RESPECT TO SYNERGY.
11 I S THERE SOMETHI NG MORE TO THAT WI TH
12 RESPECT TO PROPOFOL RI SK WI TH MR. J ACKSON?
13 A I N TERMS OF NONDI SCLOSURE?
14 WELL, J UST THAT HE WAS - - J UST THAT HE WAS
15 GI VEN PROPOFOL I N PROPER MEDI CAL SETTI NGS FOR SURGI CAL
16 PROCEDURES FAI RLY FREQUENTLY, BUT HI S PHYSI CI ANS DI DN' T
17 KNOW- - ONLY KAREN ROWE ( SI C) , CONRAD MURRAY AND THE
18 GERMAN DOCTORS WHOSE NAMES WE DON' T KNOWSEEM TO BE THE
19 ONLY PEOPLE THAT KNEWHE WAS GETTI NG PROPOFOL FOR
20 SLEEP. THI S WAS A PART OF THE SECRECY AROUND ALL OF
21 THAT.
22 Q I ' M SORRY. I HEARD YOU SAY KAREN ROWE.
23 DO YOU MEAN DEBBI E ROWE?
24 A DEBBI E ROWE. MY APOLOGI ES. SO MANY NAMES.
25 THE OTHER - - WE KNOWTHI S WAS ALSO AN I SSUE
26 BECAUSE PRI NCE J ACKSON TESTI FI ED THAT AT CAROLWOOD,
27 DESPI TE THE FACT THAT HE WAS A WONDERFUL FATHER AND HI S
28 CHI LDREN HAD - - HAD GREAT - - HE CARED FOR HI S CHI LDREN
866 299-5127
15809
1 WELL, THAT HI S BEDROOM AT THE END WAS LOCKED, AND THEY
2 WERE UNABLE TO GO I NTO THAT BEDROOM WHERE THE PROPOFOL
3 WAS ADMI NI STERED.
4 SO THAT LOCKI NG KI ND OF MAKES SURE THAT NO
5 ONE FI NDS OUT ABOUT THE PROPOFOL USE. THE PROBLEM WI TH
6 THAT I S THAT OTHER PHYSI CI ANS, OBVI OUSLY, WHO TREAT YOU
7 NEED TO KNOWABOUT ANY KI ND OF MEDI CAL PROCEDURES
8 YOU' RE HAVI NG OR ANY KI ND OF - - ESPECI ALLY SOMETHI NG AS
9 I MPORTANT AS I NTRAVENOUS PROPOFOL.
10 Q AND THAT' S SOMETHI NG THAT COMES UP WI TH
11 DOCTOR SHOPPI NG, RI GHT? THE NONDI SCLOSURE AND SECRECY
12 ARE A PART OF DOCTOR SHOPPI NG? J UST YES OR NO?
13 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, BOTH SECRECY AND DOCTOR
14 SHOPPI NG WERE COVERED AT LENGTH BY THEI R LAST EXPERT,
15 DR. LEVOUNI S. THI S I S CUMULATI VE.
16 THE COURT: TRUE. SUSTAI NED.
17 MS. CAHAN: OKAY.
18 Q DI D YOU SEE EVI DENCE THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS
19 DOCTOR SHOPPI NG I N 2009 WI TH RESPECT TO PROPOFOL?
20 MR. BOYLE: SAME OBJ ECTI ON.
21 THE COURT: WI TH RESPECT TO PROPOFOL?
22 OVERRULED.
23 THE WI TNESS: YES.
24 ACTUALLY, I THI NK THAT' S ON YOUR CHART
25 HERE. HE ACTUALLY ASKED DR. DAVI D ADAMS TO HELP HI M
26 REST, AND DR. ADAMS DI D NOT DO THAT. HE TALKED TO
27 CHERI LYN LEE AND ASKED FOR SOME HELP GETTI NG SOMEONE TO
28 GI VE HI M PROPOFOL TO SLEEP, SO HE WAS SEEKI NG OUT A
866 299-5127
15810
1 PROVI DER THAT WOULD PROVI DE PROPOFOL STARTI NG OUT WI TH
2 DR. ADAMS, WHO WAS AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST, AND A VERY GOOD
3 CHOI CE, AND THEN MOVI NG TO CHERI LYN LEE, WHO WAS NOT AN
4 ANESTHESI OLOGI ST, NOT A PHYSI CI AN, SAYI NG, " CAN YOU
5 HELP ME SET SOMETHI NG UP?"
6 AND HE ALSO ASKS I N APRI L OF - - HE ASKS
7 DR. ALLAN METZGER FOR I NTRAVENOUS SLEEP MEDI CATI ON. SO
8 HE' S GOI NG FROM PLACE TO PLACE REQUESTI NG PROPOFOL.
9 THI S WAS NOT A PHYSI CI AN- CHOSEN I NTERVENTI ON,
10 THEREFORE, I T WAS HI M ASKI NG.
11 Q YOU J UST SAI D DR. ADAMS WOULD HAVE BEEN A
12 GOOD CHOI CE.
13 DO YOU THI NK I T WOULD HAVE BEEN OKAY FOR
14 MR. J ACKSON TO GET PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP FROM DR. ADAMS?
15 A BEST OF CI RCUMSTANCES I N A TERRI BLE
16 SI TUATI ON, I GUESS I S THE WAY I WOULD HAVE PUT I T. I F,
17 YOU KNOW- - YOU DON' T WANT TO USE PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP.
18 THAT' S THE BOTTOM LI NE. BUT, YOU KNOW, I F THAT
19 OCCURRED, I T WOULD CERTAI NLY HAVE BEEN SAFER HAD HE HAD
20 AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST WI TH PROPER EQUI PMENT I N A PROPER
21 SETTI NG.
22 I T STI LL DOESN' T MAKE I T RI GHT OR CORRECT
23 FOR LOTS OF OTHER REASONS BECAUSE OF THE EFFECTS OF
24 PROPOFOL, BUT I T WOULD HAVE BEEN BETTER THAN HAVI NG
25 SOMEONE ELSE DO I T.
26 Q WHAT I S YOUR REFERENCE TO ACCI DENTS THERE?
27 A RI GHT.
28 THERE ARE SEVERAL I SSUES AROUND ACCI DENTS.
866 299-5127
15811
1 ONE OF THE THI NGS WE FOUND I N THE PROPOFOL RESEARCH
2 STUDY I S THAT ONE OF THE MOST COMMON THI NGS THAT
3 OCCURRED I N PROPOFOL- ADDI CTED I NDI VI DUALS I S THEY
4 MI SJ UDGED THEI R COORDI NATI ON, THEI R ABI LI TY TO DRI VE
5 CARS, THAT SORT OF THI NG, SO HALF OF OUR PATI ENTS WERE
6 I NVOLVED I N PROPOFOL- RELATED AUTOMOBI LE ACCI DENTS OR
7 FALLI NG OFF A TABLE WHEN THEY WERE UNDER THE - - WHEN
8 THEY WERE ON THE PROPOFOL, OR SOME OTHER TYPE OF
9 PHYSI CAL I NJ URY THAT OCCURRED ASSOCI ATED WI TH PROPOFOL.
10 YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER YOU GO UNCONSCI OUS SO
11 YOU CAN' T DRI VE A CAR, YOU CAN' T DANCE, YOU CAN' T - -
12 YOU KNOW, YOU - - PEOPLE WOULD DO THI NGS LI KE FALL WHEN
13 THEY GOT UP FROM CHAI RS. ONE OF THE CARDI NAL SI GNS OF
14 MY PROPOFOL- ADDI CTED PATI ENTS, ACTUALLY, WAS FACI AL
15 CONTUSI ONS.
16 WHEN I SAWSOMEONE COMI NG I NTO THE CENTER
17 WHO HAD FACI AL CONTUSI ONS, I WOULD SAY TO THE I NTAKE
18 STAFF, " OH, DO WE HAVE ANOTHER PROPOFOL ADDI CT COMI NG
19 I N?" YOU COULD J UST SEE I T ON THEI R FACE BECAUSE THEY
20 HAD FALLEN SO MANY TI MES OR I NJ URED THEI R FACE OR UPPER
21 BODI ES.
22 Q WELL, THOSE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE
23 SELF- ADMI NI STERI NG PROPOFOL, RI GHT? SO THEY' D GI VE
24 THEMSELVES PROPOFOL AND MI GHT BECOME UNCONSCI OUS AND
25 FALL OVER?
26 A SURE.
27 Q YOU DI DN' T SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT
28 MR. J ACKSON WAS SELF- ADMI NI STERI NG PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
866 299-5127
15812
1 A I DI D NOT.
2 HE WAS NOT SELF- ADMI NI STERI NG.
3 Q SO HOWWAS MR. J ACKSON STI LL AT RI SK FOR
4 ACCI DENTS I F HE WASN' T GI VI NG HI MSELF THE PROPOFOL?
5 A BECAUSE OF THI S MI SJ UDGI NG OF ONE' S
6 COORDI NATI ON. I N OTHER WORDS, I F HE WOKE UP AT NI GHT,
7 GOT UP OUT OF BED, HE WOULD HAVE A HI GHER PROBABI LI TY
8 OF FALLI NG I N THE RESTROOM.
9 THE COORDI NATI ON - - THAT' S WHY I N AN
10 OPERATI NG ROOM AFTER THE - - YOU KNOW, AFTER YOU HAVE
11 ANESTHESI A THAT YOU ARE I N A RECOVERY ROOM. YOU NEED A
12 SUFFI CI ENT TI ME TO RECOVER; AND WHEN YOU' RE GI VEN
13 PROPOFOL I N - - I N A NON- MEDI CAL SETTI NG, YOU' RE NO ONE
14 I S SAYI NG YOU' RE STRAPPED TO THE GURNEY, YOU CAN' T GET
15 UP AND GO ANYWHERE.
16 Q DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT MR. J ACKSON
17 ACTUALLY SUFFERED ANY I NJ URI ES LI KE THAT?
18 A THERE WAS - - ONE I S WE DON' T KNOWWHETHER
19 I T WAS PROPOFOL RELATED, BUT THERE WERE I NJ URI ES I N THE
20 PAST WHERE HE WAS - - HAD A DANCE I NJ URY.
21 MR. BOYLE: OBJ ECTI ON; MOVE TO STRI KE, YOUR
22 HONOR. HE J UST SAI D, " WE DON' T KNOWI F I T' S PROPOFOL
23 RELATED, " AND THAT WAS THE QUESTI ON.
24 MS. CAHAN: AND I DON' T WANT YOU TO SPECULATE,
25 DR. EARLEY.
26 THE WI TNESS: OKAY. THAT' S GOOD. I ' M SORRY.
27 MS. CAHAN: THAT' S OKAY.
28 Q SO THERE' S SOME PERI OD OF TI ME AFTER
866 299-5127
15813
1 SOMEBODY HAS GOTTEN PROPOFOL WHERE THEY WAKE UP AND
2 THEY' RE CLUMSY; I S THAT FAI R TO SAY?
3 A CORRECT. WELL SAI D.
4 Q BUT THAT WEARS OFF, RI GHT?
5 A YES, I T WEARS OFF AT DI FFERI NG RATES.
6 Q AND I T CAN BE A FAI RLY SHORT AMOUNT OF TI ME
7 I T TAKES TO WEAR OFF, DEPENDI NG ON THE AMOUNT OF
8 PROPOFOL AND HOWLONG I T WAS ADMI NI STERED?
9 A YEAH; AND THE SYNERGY WI TH OTHER DRUGS.
10 Q AND ONCE THE SI DE EFFECTS HAVE WORN OFF,
11 ARE THERE ANY OTHER SI GNS THAT SOMEONE HAS USED
12 PROPOFOL MAYBE A FEWHOURS EARLI ER?
13 A NO.
14 Q SO ONCE SOMEONE HAS WOKEN UP AND HAD A
15 LI TTLE BI T OF TI ME PASS, I S THERE ANY WAY TO TELL THAT
16 THAT PERSON HAS BEEN RECEI VI NG PROPOFOL EARLI ER?
17 A NOT WI TH THE ONLY - - THE ONLY EXCEPTI ON
18 WOULD HAVE BEEN - - NO, THERE' S NO REAL WAY TO DETECT
19 THAT.
20 Q I S THAT DI STI NCT FROM SOMETHI NG LI KE
21 OPI OI DS WHERE THEY CAN BE - - A PERSON CAN BE AWAKE AND
22 FUNCTI ONI NG BUT ALSO SHOWI NG SI GNS - - EFFECT OF THE
23 DRUG?
24 A YES, OPI OI DS ARE VERY DI FFERENT. YOU CAN
25 BE - - MANY PEOPLE THAT ARE OPI OI DS ADDI CTED ARE AWAKE
26 AND HI GHLY FUNCTI ONI NG ON THE DRUGS.
27 Q HAVE WE COVERED THE RI SK FACTORS LI STED
28 HERE NOW?
866 299-5127
15814
1 A I THI NK SO.
2 Q SO THESE ARE RI SK FACTORS THAT MADE
3 MR. J ACKSON' S USE OF PROPOFOL THE WAY HE WAS USI NG I T
4 DANGEROUS, RI GHT?
5 A CORRECT.
6 Q AND YOU BELI EVE THAT THAT WOULD HAVE - -
7 THAT HAD A NEGATI VE EFFECT ON HI S LI FE EXPECTANCY?
8 A ABSOLUTELY.
9 Q CAN YOU QUANTI FY THAT, OR CHARACTERI ZE
10 THAT?
11 A WELL, THE PROPOFOL EFFECTS, BECAUSE THEY
12 ARE SO DRAMATI C, THEY ARE HUGE. AND I CAN' T GI VE YOU A
13 PERCENTAGE BECAUSE THERE' S NO DATA I N THE LI TERATURE TO
14 BACK THAT UP.
15 BUT KNOWTHAT - - THAT GI VI NG PROPOFOL,
16 BECAUSE OF MR. J ACKSON' S TONGUE - - I F WE TAKE A LOOK AT
17 THAT ALONE I N A - - I N A NOT PROPERLY SUPERVI SED
18 SETTI NG, EACH TI ME - - I N LI STENI NG TO DR. ADAMS, WHO I S
19 AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST, ALMOST EVERY TI ME HE PUT HI M
20 UNDER, HI S - - HE WOULD HAVE A LAX POSTERI OR OROPHARYNX
21 AND WOULD COME CLOSE TO ASPHYXI ATI NG.
22 SO WE HAVE THI S I DEA THAT THI S I S NOT A
23 RARE OR UNUSUAL PHENOMENON; AND I N THE PROPER SETTI NG,
24 I N AN OPERATI NG ROOM SETTI NG, I S NOT A PROBLEM. BUT I N
25 AN I MPROPER SETTI NG, EACH TI ME I T' S LI KE PLAYI NG
26 RUSSI AN ROULETTE.
27 Q I S THAT DANGEROUS?
28 A YES.
866 299-5127
15815
1 Q BASED ON YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORD, WAS
2 MR. J ACKSON TOLD HOWDANGEROUS I T WAS TO BE GETTI NG
3 PROPOFOL OUTSI DE OF A PROPER SETTI NG AND NOT - - AND FOR
4 SLEEP?
5 MR. PANI SH: OBJ ECTI ON; I T' S BEEN ASKED AND
6 ANSWERED SEVERAL TI MES.
7 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED. SEVERAL TI MES.
8 Q BY MS. CAHAN: WELL, WE TALKED ABOUT - - WE
9 TALKED ABOUT MR. J ACKSON BEI NG TOLD DON' T GET PROPOFOL
10 AT HOME.
11 A CORRECT.
12 Q AND WE TOLD - - WE TALKED ABOUT MR. J ACKSON
13 BEI NG TOLD DON' T GET PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP.
14 MR. PANI SH: WELL - -
15 Q BY MS. CAHAN: AND DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE
16 THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS TOLD, I N EFFECT, " THI S I S LI KE
17 PLAYI NG RUSSI AN ROULETTE, YOU COULD DI E FROM THI S" ?
18 MR. PANI SH: SAME OBJ ECTI ONS. I MEAN, WE WENT
19 THROUGH THI S AT LENGTH WI TH ALL THESE SLI DES AND - -
20 THE COURT: I T SEEMS WE' VE ALREADY GONE THROUGH
21 THAT. I S THERE SOMETHI NG I N ADDI TI ON YOU' RE GOI NG TO
22 ADD?
23 MS. CAHAN: THE - - I J UST WANTED TO TALK ABOUT
24 DR. METZGER AND MS. LEE' S TESTI MONY.
25 MR. BOYLE: COACHI NG THE WI TNESS, YOUR HONOR.
26 THE COURT: WELL, WE TALKED ABOUT LEE ALREADY. I
27 THI NK WE TALKED ABOUT METZGER, AS WELL.
28 MR. PANI SH: YES, HE DI D. HE DI D. HE J UST GAVE
866 299-5127
15816
1 I T I N ONE OF HI S ANSWERS.
2 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED.
3 Q BY MS. CAHAN: AND DI D YOU SEE A PATTERN - -
4 DI D A PATTERN SHOWUP FOR YOU I N MR. J ACKSON' S ATTEMPTS
5 TO GET PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP THAT' S REFLECTED ON THAT
6 TI MELI NE?
7 MR. PANI SH: J UST VAGUE AS TO WHI CH - - THE ONE
8 THAT' S UP I N FRONT OF THE J URY, THAT ONE?
9 MS. CAHAN: YES, THE TI MELI NE THAT' S ON THE
10 POSTER.
11 THE COURT: THE ONE THAT WAS HANDED OUT?
12 MS. CAHAN: YES.
13 THE WI TNESS: YEAH, I THI NK THERE I S CERTAI NLY
14 A - - A PATTERN HERE. AND THI S I S - - WHEN HE GETS THE
15 DRUG ONCE I N GERMANY, COMES BACK FROM GERMANY, ASKS FOR
16 I T AGAI N, THE BOX OF PROPOFOL - - SOMEHOWTHE BOX OF
17 PROPOFOL GETS TO NEVERLAND, WE DON' T KNOWHOW, I N 2003.
18 THEN WE HAVE A PERI OD OF TI ME WHERE THERE ARE NO
19 RECORDS, AND - - FEWRECORDS.
20 AND THEN THERE' S THI S I NTENSE I NCREASE I N
21 SEEKI NG, AT LEAST THREE SEPARATE I NSTANCES I N 2009
22 WHERE HE WI NDS UP WI TH DR. MURRAY GI VI NG HI M THE
23 PROPOFOL AND DI ES.
24 MS. CAHAN: I WANT TO TALK NOW- - SWI TCH FROM
25 TALKI NG ABOUT PROPOFOL TO TALKI NG ABOUT THE OTHER DRUGS
26 THAT YOU THI NK POSED A RI SK TO - - TO MR. J ACKSON' S LI FE
27 EXPECTANCY. AND I THI NK ON YOUR I NI TI AL SLI DE, YOU
28 HAVE LI STED OPI OI DS AND BENZODI AZEPI NES.
866 299-5127
15817
1 THE WI TNESS: THAT' S CORRECT.
2 MS. CAHAN: LET' S FI RST TALK ABOUT OPI OI DS.
3 Q DO YOU THI NK MI CHAEL J ACKSON' S OPI OI D
4 ADDI CTI ON CREATED SERI OUS RI SKS THAT AFFECTED HI S LI FE
5 EXPECTANCY?
6 A I DO, AND THERE' S EVI DENCE I N THE - - I N THE
7 MATERI ALS I REVI EWED THAT I NDI CATE THAT THERE WAS
8 DANGER.
9 Q DI D YOU REVI EWDR. SCHNOLL' S TESTI MONY I N
10 THI S CASE?
11 A I DI D.
12 Q AND DO YOU REMEMBER HI M SAYI NG THAT OPI OI DS
13 ARE THE MOST COMMONLY PRESCRI BED DRUG I N THE
14 UNI TED STATES?
15 A I DO.
16 Q I S THAT RI GHT?
17 A THAT I S TRUE.
18 Q DOESN' T THAT MEAN THAT THEY' RE PRETTY SAFE?
19 A NO.
20 Q WHY NOT?
21 A WELL, I THI NK I ' VE GOT ONE GRAPH I WANTED
22 TO SHOWTHAT HAS THAT, ABOUT THAT. OPI OI D ANALGESI CS
23 ARE VERY COMMONLY PRESCRI BED. THE ONES THAT WE' RE
24 FAMI LI AR WI TH ARE THE DEMEROL I N THI S CASE; BUT
25 OXYCONTI N OR OXI ES, PERCODAN, PERCOCET, TEN YEARS AGO,
26 THESE DRUGS I N MY FI ELD WERE VERY RARELY ABUSED; BUT
27 TODAY, THEY' RE THE NUMBER 1 DRUG OF ABUSE BY YOUNG
28 ADULTS THAT COME I NTO CENTERS SUCH AS MI NE.
866 299-5127
15818
1 THE - - AND RUNNI NG A CENTER SUCH AS I HAVE
2 I N THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, THE NUMBERS OF UNI NTENTI ONAL
3 DEATHS AND OVERDOSES HAVE GONE UP DRAMATI CALLY. ANYONE
4 WHO - - REALLY ALL OF US HAVE BEEN EXPOSED TO THI S. I F
5 YOU HAVE YOUNG ADULT CHI LDREN OR TEENAGE CHI LDREN, YOU
6 KNOWTHAT MANY OF THEM HAVE FRI ENDS OR KNOWOF PEOPLE
7 THAT HAVE OVERDOSED AND DI ED.
8 THI S WAS UNHEARD OF 15 - - 10, 15 YEARS AGO.
9 SO DESPI TE DR. SCHNOLL' S TESTI MONY, I T KI ND OF FLI ES I N
10 THE FACE OF COMMON SENSE I N THAT CASE. BUT THERE' S
11 ALSO RESEARCH THAT SHOWS THAT, AS WELL.
12 Q AND DO YOU HAVE A SLI DE WI TH - - SHOWI NG
13 SOME OF THE RESEARCH ABOUT OPI OI D OVERDOSE?
14 A I DO. I HAVE I T NUMBER 10, ALTHOUGH WE
15 DON' T KNOWWHI CH ONE - -
16 MS. CAHAN: I HAVE I T 10, TOO. THAT' S A GOOD
17 SI GN. THAT WOULD BE SLI DE 10, EXHI BI T 13571.
18 ANY OBJ ECTI ON?
19 MR. BOYLE: THI S I S A NEWOPI NI ON THAT WASN' T
20 OFFERED I N HI S DEPOSI TI ON.
21 MS. CAHAN: NO, I T' S NOT A NEWOPI NI ON.
22 MR. BOYLE: I ' D LI KE TO SEE - - CAN YOU GI VE A
23 CI TE TO HI S DEPOSI TI ON?
24 MR. PUTNAM: THESE SLI DES WERE SHOWN I N ADVANCE
25 OF HI S TESTI MONY.
26 THE COURT: I F YOU NEED A SI DEBAR, LET' S HAVE A
27 SI DEBAR. I F YOU CAN J UST SHOWHI M SOMETHI NG EASI LY,
28 THEN DO THAT; BUT I F YOU NEED A SI DEBAR, LET' S DO THAT.
866 299-5127
15819
1 MS. CAHAN: I ' LL TRY TO FI ND I T QUI CKLY, YOUR
2 HONOR. I DI DN' T HEAR ANY CONCERN ABOUT THI S WHEN I - -
3 I DON' T HAVE I T.
4 THE COURT: YOU DON' T NEED A COMMENT, J UST LOOK
5 AT - -
6 MR. PANI SH: COMMENTARY OF COUNSEL, I T' S SUPPOSED
7 TO GO BOTH WAYS.
8 MR. PUTNAM: SUCH AS A SPEAKI NG OBJ ECTI ON, YOUR
9 HONOR.
10 MR. PANI SH: I MOVE TO STRI KE COUNSEL' S COMMENTS
11 AS - -
12 THE COURT: I ' LL STRI KE BOTH OF YOUR COMMENTS.
13 MR. PANI SH: HI M, TOO.
14 THE COURT: DON' T POI NT AT MR. BOYLE. HE DI DN' T
15 SAY ANYTHI NG.
16 MR. PANI SH: I ' M POI NTI NG AT MR. PUTNAM.
17 THE COURT: MR. BOYLE, GET OUT OF THE WAY.
18 MS. CAHAN: I WAS J UST PASSED A NOTE THAT SAYS
19 THAT THE CHART HE' S GOI NG TO DI SCLOSE COMES FROM AN
20 ARTI CLE AT HI S DEPOSI TI ON AND DI SCLOSED AS A BASI S FOR
21 HI S OPI NI ON THERE. I COULD TAKE SOME TI ME AND TRY TO
22 FI ND I F I WAS ASKED ABOUT I T. BUT AT HI S DEPOSI TI ON - -
23 THE COURT: DO YOU WANT A SI DEBAR, MR. BOYLE?
24 TELL ME.
25 MR. BOYLE: HE CAN GO AHEAD. THAT' S FI NE, YOUR
26 HONOR. WE DON' T BELI EVE HE TESTI FI ED ABOUT THI S AT HI S
27 DEPOSI TI ON, BUT THAT' S OKAY.
28 MS. CAHAN: OKAY. SO, PAM, PUT UP SLI DE 13571,
866 299-5127
15820
1 PLEASE.
2 Q WHAT DOES THI S SLI DE SHOW?
3 A SO THI S I S A HI STORI CAL CHART; AND YOU SEE
4 ALONG THE BOTTOM, THESE ARE YEARS. FROM 1999 TO 2008,
5 ACTUALLY, I S THE LAST BAR. WE DON' T HAVE DATA FOR MORE
6 RECENTLY. AND THI S I S A - - FROM THE CENTERS FOR
7 DI SEASE CONTROL. SO THI S I S THEI R - - THEI R RESEARCH,
8 OBVI OUSLY DONE COMPLETELY I NDEPENDENT OF ANYONE FROM
9 THI S ROOM.
10 AND I T' S TI TLED " UNI NTENTI ONAL DRUG
11 POI SONI NG I N THE UNI TED STATES. " AND YOU SEE WI TH
12 HEROI N THE AMOUNT OF UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE DEATHS I S
13 REMARKABLY FLAT DURI NG THI S PERI OD OF TI ME. THERE' S A
14 RI SE I N THE UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE OF COCAI NE.
15 WHAT WE MEAN BY " UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE" I S
16 SOMEONE USES THE DRUG FOR WHATEVER REASON, FOR PAI N,
17 FOR - - I N THE CASE OF OPI OI DS, OR TO GET HI GH,
18 I NDI FFERENT TO THAT. OBVI OUSLY, COCAI NE AND HEROI N ARE
19 USED TO GET HI GH.
20 OPI OI D ANALGESI CS - - AND UNI NTENTI ONALLY,
21 THEY TAKE TOO MUCH OF THE DRUG AND DI E. SO WHAT WE SEE
22 HERE I S OPI OI D ANALGESI CS HAVE GONE FROM 1999 AT, SAY,
23 3, 000 DEATHS PER YEAR - - YOU HAVE TO ALMOST 12, 000
24 DEATHS PER YEAR I N 2008, WHI CH I S CLEARLY DI FFERENT
25 I NFORMATI ON FROM THE C. D. C. THAN WHAT DR. SCHNOLL I S
26 TESTI FYI NG TO.
27 THE OTHER I SSUE I S I N THE LAST DECADE,
28 OPI OI D OVERDOSES HAVE TRI PLED; AND I N 30 OF THE STATES,
866 299-5127
15821
1 UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE FROM POI SONI NG WI TH THESE DRUGS
2 I S THE LEADI NG CAUSE OF DEATH FROM I NJ URY. THAT MEANS,
3 YOU KNOW, NOT FROM CANCER, FROM THAT SORT OF THI NG. SO
4 WE' RE TALKI NG ABOUT A HUGE PROBLEM.
5 I T I S ALSO - - I T I S ALSO THE NUMBER ONE
6 CAUSE OF EMERGENCY ROOM VI SI TS I N L. A. COUNTY. SO THI S
7 I S A HUGE PROBLEM, AND I THI NK I T' S - - A LOT OF - - YOU
8 HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT A LOT OF THESE FOLKS ARE BEI NG
9 GI VEN THESE DRUGS FOR PAI N BY PAI N PHYSI CI ANS WHO
10 SAY - - WHO TRY TO CONTROL THAT.
11 SO THI S I S NOT NECESSARI LY PEOPLE THAT ARE
12 SEEKI NG TO GET HI GH. THEY' RE POTENT DRUGS, THEY' RE
13 EASY TO TAKE TOO MUCH OF, AND PEOPLE GET - - WHAT
14 HAPPENS OVER TI ME I S YOU DEVELOP TOLERANCE FOR THESE
15 DRUGS.
16 YOU TAKE THE DRUGS AND YOU GET LESS AND
17 LESS OF A PAI N EFFECT, BUT THE TOXI C EFFECT LEVEL
18 DOESN' T CHANGE, SO YOU GET CLOSER AND CLOSER TO THE
19 LEVEL WHERE YOU COULD HAVE A BAD SI DE EFFECT WI TH
20 CHRONI C USE. THAT' S WHY WE' RE SEEI NG THI S.
21 MR. PANI SH: WHI CH EXHI BI T TO HI S DEPOSI TI ON I S
22 THI S?
23 MS. CAHAN: I ' LL HAVE SOMEBODY - - I T' S
24 EXHI BI T 16.
25 Q BY MS. CAHAN: J UST TO MAKE SURE I
26 UNDERSTAND THI S, THI S NUMBER OF - - THE RED LI NE I S
27 OVERDOSE DEATHS FROM OPI OI DS?
28 A CORRECT.
866 299-5127
15822
1 Q AND THAT' S J UST NOT - - THAT' S NOT J UST
2 PEOPLE WHO ARE ADDI CTED TO OPI OI DS, THAT COULD BE
3 SOMEBODY WHO I S TAKI NG I T AS PRESCRI BED BY THEI R
4 DOCTOR?
5 A WELL, " AS PRESCRI BED, " PROBABLY I NACCURATE,
6 BECAUSE I F - - NO PHYSI CI AN WOULD PRESCRI BE THE DRUG AT
7 A TOXI C DOSE. BUT, RATHER, TAKI NG THE DRUG AND
8 UNI NTENTI ONALLY TAKI NG TOO MUCH OF I T AND DYI NG.
9 Q OKAY. SO SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO
10 UNI NTENTI ONALLY TOOK TOO MANY OF THE OPI OI DS AND
11 OVERDOSED AND UNFORTUNATELY PASSED AWAY WERE NOT TAKI NG
12 THEM TO TRY TO GET HI GH, THEY WERE TAKI NG THEM TO
13 ADDRESS PAI N OR - - AND THEY HAD GOTTEN THEM FROM A
14 DOCTOR?
15 A YES.
16 Q AND I SEE THAT THI S CUTS OFF AT 2007.
17 ARE YOU AWARE OF WHETHER THE TREND HAS
18 CONTI NUED SI NCE 2007?
19 A THE TREND I S CONTI NUI NG. I T' S ACTUALLY
20 FLATTENI NG OUT J UST A NUBBI N I N THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS,
21 AND THAT' S BECAUSE THE - - THE F. D. A. HAS STARTED
22 MANDATORY - - MANDATORY EDUCATI ON FOR PHYSI CI ANS I N
23 PROPER OPI OI D PRESCRI BI NG.
24 THE F. D. A. I S CONCERNED THAT THERE ARE TOO
25 MANY OPI OI DS PRESCRI BED I N THE UNI TED STATES, AND
26 THOSE - - THAT - - THOSE NUMBERS ARE CAUSI NG THI S - -
27 THI S - - THESE UNI NTENTI ONAL DEATHS, SO - - AND I ' M
28 ACTUALLY PART OF A COMMI TTEE THAT' S HELPI NG TRAI N
866 299-5127
15823
1 PHYSI CI ANS ON THAT.
2 Q OKAY. AND SO - -
3 A I ' M SORRY.
4 Q THAT' S OKAY.
5 SO SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE OVERDOSED - -
6 HAVE HAD FATAL OVERDOSES OF OPI OI DS ARE NOT ADDI CTED.
7 I S THE RI SK HI GHER FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE
8 OPI OI D ADDI CTS, THE RI SK OF FATAL OVERDOSE?
9 A YES, THE RI SK I S HI GHER BECAUSE OPI OI D
10 ADDI CTS TEND TO HAVE MORE DI SCONTROL OVER THEI R USE.
11 ONCE YOU START USI NG THE DRUGS, YOU HAVE MORE
12 DI FFI CULTI ES I N TAKI NG THE DRUGS I N A RESPONSI BLE
13 FASHI ON. THAT' S PART OF THE I LLNESS.
14 Q AND DI D YOU ALSO SEE DR. SCHNOLL' S
15 TESTI MONY THAT NOT A LARGE PERCENTAGE OF PEOPLE WHO ARE
16 TREATED WI TH OPI OI D DRUGS BECOME ADDI CTED?
17 A YES.
18 THAT' S ACTUALLY A SOMEWHAT OLD- FASHI ONED
19 NOTI ON, AND ALL THE TI ME I N TREATMENT SETTI NGS WE SEE
20 PEOPLE THAT CAME I N WHO HAD REAL SI GNI FI CANT PAI N
21 PROBLEMS WHI CH STARTED ON OPI OI DS FOR REAL SI GNI FI CANT
22 PAI N PROBLEMS AND WI ND UP BECOMI NG ADDI CTED,
23 UNFORTUNATELY.
24 I T' S A COMMON CAUSATI VE AGENT I N MY FI ELD
25 OF ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE.
26 Q DI D YOU SEE I N DR. SCHNOLL' S TESTI MONY THAT
27 HE STOPPED TREATI NG PATI ENTS I N 2001?
28 A I DI D.
866 299-5127
15824
1 Q AND YOU' RE SAYI NG THE THI NKI NG ON OPI OI DS
2 HAS CHANGED I N THAT DECADE PLUS SI NCE THAT TI ME?
4 Q BASED ON DR. SCHNOLL' S TESTI MONY, WHAT
5 TYPES OF WORK HAS HE BEEN DOI NG SI NCE HE STOPPED SEEI NG
6 PATI ENTS I N 2001?
7 MR. BOYLE: OBJ ECTI ON, YOUR HONOR. HE' S
8 TESTI FYI NG ABOUT DR. SCHNOLL' S TESTI MONY. I T' S NOT AN
9 OPI NI ON, I T' S NOT AI DI NG THE J URY I N ANY WAY, HE' S J UST
10 GOI NG TO REPEAT WHAT DR. SCHNOLL SAI D.
11 MR. PANI SH: AND, ALSO, DR. LEVOUNI S TESTI FI ED
12 ABOUT THI S ALREADY.
13 MS. CAHAN: HE DI DN' T, BUT - -
14 MR. PANI SH: HE DI D.
16 Q BY MS. CAHAN: SO FOCUSI NG NOWON
17 MR. J ACKSON' S OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON, DO YOU - - HAVE YOU
18 ASSESSED SOME RI SK FACTORS THAT MR. J ACKSON FACED
19 BECAUSE OF HI S OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON?
20 A I HAVE.
21 Q AND DO YOU HAVE A SLI DE OF THOSE?
22 A I DO.
23 MI NE I S NUMBER 11.
24 MR. BOYLE: MI NE I S, TOO. AND SO THAT WOULD MAKE
25 I T EXHI BI T NUMBER 113572.
26 ANY OBJ ECTI ON TO THAT?
27 MR. BOYLE: NO OBJ ECTI ON.
28 MS. CAHAN: OTHER THAN TO THE THI RD POI NT UNDER 1
866 299-5127
15825
1 AS CUMULATI VE, DOCTOR SHOPPI NG AND SECRECY.
2 MS. CAHAN: WE WON' T GO I NTO THAT, YOUR HONOR.
3 THE COURT: OKAY.
4 MS. CAHAN: SO THE FI RST NUMBERED I TEM YOU HAVE
5 LI STED HERE I S RI SK OF UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE.
6 Q SO THAT' S OVERDOSE OF OPI OI DS?
7 A CORRECT.
8 Q WHY DO YOU THI NK MR. J ACKSON WAS AT RI SK OF
9 AN UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE? AND BEFORE - - AT A HI GH
10 LEVEL.
11 A OKAY.
12 MR. J ACKSON HAD MULTI PLE PHYSI CI ANS I N HI S
13 LI FE, AND SPENT LOTS OF TI MES WI TH PHYSI CI ANS, AND MANY
14 OF WHOM STARTED SAYI NG, " HE' S MY FRI END, " AND THE
15 REASON - -
16 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, AGAI N, I ' M SORRY TO
17 I NTERRUPT, BUT THI S I S CUMULATI VE. DR. LEVOUNI S
18 TESTI FI ED AT LENGTH ABOUT J ACKSON BEI NG FRI ENDS WI TH
19 DOCTORS. THI S I S ALL TESTI FI ED TO.
20 THE COURT: I T DOES SEEM TO BE CUMULATI VE. LET' S
21 TRY TO GET SOME NEWTHI NGS SO WE' RE NOT REPEATI NG
22 TESTI MONY.
23 MS. CAHAN: I T' S NOT MY I NTENTI ON TO REPEAT, YOUR
24 HONOR.
25 Q DI D THE THI NGS THAT DR. LEVOUNI S TESTI FI ED
26 TO ABOUT MR. J ACKSON' S BEHAVI ORS WI TH RESPECT TO
27 OPI OI DS THAT ARE LI STED I N THESE BULLETS HERE CREATE A
28 RI SK OF UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE AND, THEREFORE, A
866 299-5127
15826
1 DI MI NI SHMENT OF MR. J ACKSON' S LI FE EXPECTANCY, I N YOUR
2 VI EW?
3 A I T DI D.
4 Q HOWSO?
5 A I ' M TRYI NG TO FI GURE OUT HOWI CAN SAY THI S
6 WI THOUT - - BECAUSE - - BECAUSE OF HI S RELATI ONSHI P, AND
7 BECAUSE OF HI S SECRECY, HE HAD A HI GHER PROBABI LI TY
8 OF - - OF HAVI NG MULTI PLE MEDI CATI ONS, AND HE WAS
9 SOMEONE THAT HAS TAKEN THEM OVER A LONG PERI OD OF TI ME,
10 SO HE' S SOMEWHAT - - AND OVER TI ME, EVERYONE BECOMES
11 LESS WORRI ED ABOUT THE TOXI C EFFECTS.
12 I T' S A NATURAL THI NG THAT EVERYONE DOES,
13 AND MULTI PLE DRUGS FROM MULTI PLE PHYSI CI ANS I N HI GH
14 DOSES I NCREASES RI SKS.
15 Q OKAY. SO SOMEONE - - SOMEONE WHO I S
16 ADDI CTED TO OPI OI DS FOR A LONG TI ME TENDS TO USE THEM
17 I N HI GHER AMOUNTS?
18 A YES.
19 THAT' S BECAUSE OF TOLERANCE, YES.
20 Q AND HI GHER AMOUNTS MAKE I T MORE LI KELY FOR
21 SOMEONE TO OVERDOSE?
22 A RI GHT.
23 TAKEN I N HI GHER AMOUNTS BECAUSE THEY GET - -
24 THEY DEVELOP TOLERANCE TO THE EFFECTS OF THE DRUG AND
25 YET THEY DON' T DEVELOP TOLERANCE TO THE POTENTI AL
26 TOXI CI TY FROM THE DRUG.
27 Q AND I THI NK YOU J UST SAI D A MI NUTE AGO WHEN
28 PEOPLE ASSESS THE RI SKI NESS OF THEI R USE OF OPI OI DS,
866 299-5127
15827
1 THEY SORT OF MI NI MI ZE THE RI SKI NESS THE LONGER THEY' RE
2 ADDI CTED?
3 A SURE.
4 THE SAME THI NG HAPPENS WI TH ANY MEDI CATI ON.
5 I F YOU - - THE FI RST TI ME YOU TAKE A NEWANTI BI OTI C, YOU
6 WONDER I F YOU' RE GOI NG TO BE ALLERGI C TO I T; BUT AS YOU
7 TAKE I T OVER TI ME, YOU SAY " OH, YEAH, I ' VE TAKEN THAT,
8 THAT' S NOT A PROBLEM. " THAT' S HUMAN NATURE.
9 Q SO I N YOUR REVI EWOF THE EVI DENCE AND
10 TESTI MONY, YOU THI NK THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS AT A - - HOW
11 WOULD YOU QUANTI FY HI S RI SK OF UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE
12 OF OPI OI DS?
13 A VERY HI GH.
14 Q AND THE NEXT BULLET YOU HAVE THERE I S " RI SK
15 OF ACCI DENT. "
16 WHAT DOES THAT MEAN WI TH RESPECT TO
17 MR. J ACKSON' S USE OF OPI OI DS?
18 A WELL, THERE WERE SEVERAL I NSTANCES WHERE WE
19 KNOWFROM THE HI STORY THAT MR. J ACKSON I GNORED
20 POSTOPERATI VE CARE I NSTRUCTI ONS. AT ONE POI NT AFTER AN
21 ANESTHESI A PROCEDURE WI TH MR. FOURNI ER, HE SPRAI NED HI S
22 ANKLE, HAD TO BE CARRI ED ONSTAGE I N 1994.
23 SO WE HAVE ONE I NCI DENT WHERE WE KNOW
24 HI S - - HI S NOT - - HI S RI SK OF ACCI DENTS WERE I NCREASED
25 AND CAUSED - - AND CAUSED SI GNI FI CANT PROBLEMS. SO PAST
26 BEHAVI OR PREDI CTS FUTURE BEHAVI OR. THAT' S PART OF
27 HUMAN NATURE.
28 Q DO OPI OI D ADDI CTS TEND TO I NJ URE THEMSELVES
866 299-5127
15828
1 MORE OFTEN THAN THE GENERAL POPULATI ON?
2 A FOR REASONS THAT WE DO NOT UNDERSTAND, THEY
3 DO.
4 Q AND WHAT I S THE DEMEROL METABOLI TE
5 I NDI CATI ON THERE, THE THI RD I TEM YOU HAVE?
6 A THE MOST COMMON METABOLI TE OF DEMEROL AND
7 THE REASON I T' S NOT USED NOWI S BECAUSE THE MOST COMMON
8 METABOLI TE OF DEMEROL I S NORMEPERI DI NE. WHEN YOUR BODY
9 BREAKS DOWN DEMEROL, I T BREAKS I T DOWN FROM MEPERI DI NE,
10 WHI CH I S DEMEROL, TO NORMEPERI DI NE. AND THAT DRUG,
11 THAT METABOLI C PRODUCT - - I ' M SORRY - - I S TOXI C.
12 I T TENDS TO ACCUMULATE OVER A LONGER PERI OD
13 OF TI ME. I T HAS WHAT' S CALLED A LONGER HALF LI FE; AND
14 WHEN THAT HAPPENS, I T PLACES YOU AT RI SK OF HAVI NG
15 SEI ZURES. THAT' S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY DEMEROL I S
16 USED LESS OFTEN TODAY; AND WHEN I T I S USED, I T' S USED
17 I N LOWER DOSES; BECAUSE PHYSI CI ANS ARE VERY CONCERNED
18 ABOUT THI S TOXI C METABOLI TE.
19 Q AND CAN THOSE SEI ZURES OR THE EFFECT OF
20 SEI ZURES LI KE FALLI NG AND HI TTI NG YOUR HEAD BE FATAL AT
21 TI MES?
22 A ABSOLUTELY.
23 I F YOU' RE WALKI NG DOWN THE STAI RS, YOU CAN
24 FALL DOWN THE STAI RS AT THE TI ME. I HAVE MANY PATI ENTS
25 THAT ARE DEMEROL ADDI CTED WHO PRESENT TO TREATMENT
26 BECAUSE THEY' VE HAD A SEI ZURE. SO THI S I S NOT AN
27 UNCOMMON PRESENTI NG SI GN.
28 Q AND SYNERGY WI TH OTHER DRUGS, I S THAT J UST
866 299-5127
15829
1 WHAT WE' VE TALKED ABOUT BEFORE I N TERMS OF OPI OI DS PLUS
2 ANY OTHER DRUG I S EXTRA DANGEROUS?
3 A RI GHT.
4 AND THEY - - BECAUSE ALL OF THESE DRUGS ARE
5 SEDATI NG, THEY' RE DI SCOORDI NATI NG. THEY ALL I NCREASE
6 THE RI SK OF I NJ URY, THEY I NCREASE THE RI SK OF AN
7 UNI NTENTI ONAL OVERDOSE. AND THAT I S SYNERGI STI C. I T' S
8 NOT J UST ONE DRUG DOI NG THI S BUT THE COMBI NATI ON OF THE
9 OTHER DRUGS STARTS CREATI NG MORE OF AN ADDI TI VE EFFECT
10 THAT CAN RESULT I N I NJ URY.
11 Q AND I T' S - - MR. J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED TO
12 OPI OI DS FROM 1993 UP UNTI L HI S DEATH, RI GHT?
13 A YES.
14 Q AND HI S OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON WAS SEVERE?
15 A I T WAS SEVERE.
16 Q SO BASED ON THE LENGTH AND SEVERI TY OF
17 MR. J ACKSON' S OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON, AND THE RI SK FACTORS
18 THAT WE' VE BEEN TALKI NG ABOUT, HOWWOULD YOU ASSESS THE
19 EFFECT OF HI S OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON ON HI S LI FE EXPECTANCY?
20 A I T WOULD BE - - I T WOULD BE VERY
21 DELETERI OUS. I CAN' T GI VE YOU, AGAI N, A PERCENTAGE;
22 BUT I T WOULD HI GHLY AFFECT HI S - - HI S LONGEVI TY.
23 Q SO WE' VE TALKED ABOUT PROPOFOL USE AND
24 OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON ON MR. J ACKSON' S LI FE EXPECTANCY, AND
25 I THI NK THE NEXT BULLET FROM THAT VERY FI RST SLI DE WAS
26 THE EFFECT OF DRUG SYNERGY ON LI FE EXPECTANCY.
27 I S THAT, AGAI N, J UST THE I DEA OF NOT - - NOT
28 A GOOD I DEA TO USE MULTI PLE TYPES OF DRUGS?
866 299-5127
15830
1 A YES.
2 ESPECI ALLY I F ONE DOCTOR DOESN' T KNOWABOUT
3 THE OTHER DRUGS, YES.
4 Q DI D YOU SEE THE TESTI MONY FROM PLAI NTI FFS'
5 EXPERT DR. SCHNOLL THAT I F MR. J ACKSON HAD GOTTEN
6 PROPER TREATMENT FROM HI S DRUG USE, HE WOULD HAVE LI VED
7 A NORMAL, HEALTHY, FULL LI FE?
8 A I DI D.
9 Q BASED ON YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORD, AND
10 SETTI NG ASI DE DR. MURRAY, DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE THAT
11 MI CHAEL J ACKSON DI DN' T ALWAYS GET THE BEST MEDI CAL
12 TREATMENT?
13 A UNFORTUNATELY, HE DI D NOT.
14 Q CAN YOU THI NK OF ANY EXAMPLES OF THAT?
15 A WELL, HE WENT OFF TO TREATMENT I N ' 93,
16 ACCORDI NG TO HI S OWN ADMI SSI ON; AND THERE WAS NO
17 I NFORMATI ON ABOUT CONTI NUED FOLLOWUP. ADDI CTI ON I S A
18 CHRONI C I LLNESS.
19 ONCE YOU DEVELOP ADDI CTI ON DI SORDERS, YOU
20 HAVE TO CARE FOR I T EVERY DAY OF THE LI FE, MUCH LI KE
21 DI ABETES AND HYPERTENSI ON, YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR HI GH
22 BLOOD PRESSURE MEDI CATI ON, YOU HAVE TO TAKE YOUR
23 I NSULI N, YOU HAVE TO DO A SERI ES OF THI NGS EVERY DAY OF
24 YOUR LI FE TO STAY I N RECOVERY.
25 SO THE FACT THAT HE DI D NOT HAVE PROPER
26 FOLLOWUP I S ONE I SSUE. ANOTHER I SSUE WOULD BE THAT
27 UNFORTUNATELY, BECAUSE OF HI S PAI N- RELATED PROBLEMS, HE
28 WAS RE- EXPOSED TO OPI ATES OVER AND OVER AGAI N. THE
866 299-5127
15831
1 VERY DRUG THAT HE WAS ADDI CTED TO WAS USED FOR HI S PAI N
2 PROCEDURES.
3 AND I ' M NOT SAYI NG HE SHOULD GRI N AND BEAR
4 I T, OR - - THAT WOULD BE CRUEL. BUT I AM SAYI NG THAT
5 PHYSI CI ANS - - AS AN ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE PHYSI CI AN, WHAT
6 I DO WHEN PEOPLE HAVE PAI N PROBLEMS I S WE' RE VERY
7 CAREFUL ABOUT USI NG OPI OI D MEDI CATI ONS I N SOMEONE WI TH
8 A HI STORY OF OPI OI D ADDI CTI ON BECAUSE I T TURNS ON THE
9 SAME SWI TCH I N THE BRAI N.
10 AND SO THAT DI DN' T OCCUR.
11 Q AND LET ME J UST STOP YOU THERE.
12 YOU' RE NOT SAYI NG THAT I T WAS MR. J ACKSON' S
13 FAULT THAT HE BECAME ADDI CTED TO DRUGS?
14 A I ' M ABSOLUTELY NOT.
15 Q AND YOU' RE NOT BLAMI NG THE ADDI CT, ARE YOU?
16 A NO.
17 I N OUR FI ELD, WE DON' T BLAME THE ADDI CT. I
18 CERTAI NLY WOULD NOT DO THAT MYSELF BECAUSE I MYSELF
19 HAVE - - AM I N RECOVERY FOR MY OPI ATE ADDI CTI ON FOR OVER
20 30 YEARS; AND I ' VE LEARNED THAT BLAME HAS NOT BEEN
21 HELPFUL FOR ME, NOR I S I T HELPFUL FOR MY PATI ENTS.
22 Q AND WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER PEOPLE I N AN
23 ADDI CT' S LI FE? AS AN ADDI CTI ON PHYSI CI AN, DO YOU BLAME
24 ANYONE FOR AN ADDI CTI ON?
25 A NO.
26 BLAMI NG I S NOT HELPFUL FOR GETTI NG PEOPLE
27 BETTER AND DOESN' T BELONG I N A MEDI CAL SETTI NG. THE
28 WORD " RESPONSI BI LI TY, " HOWEVER, DOES.
866 299-5127
15832
1 Q AND HOWSO? HOWDOES RESPONSI BI LI TY FACTOR
2 I N?
3 A ONCE ONE REALI ZES THAT THEY HAVE AN
4 ADDI CTI ON DI SORDER, I T BECOMES THEI R RESPONSI BI LI TY TO
5 CARE FOR I T. AGAI N, USI NG THE ANALOGY OF HI GH BLOOD
6 PRESSURE OR DI ABETES, I F YOU ARE DI ABETI C, YOU HAVE TO
7 TAKE YOUR I NSULI N EVERY DAY, YOU HAVE TO CHECK YOUR
8 BLOOD SUGAR.
9 THE SAME KI ND OF RESPONSI BI LI TY OR
10 ATTENTI ON TO THE I LLNESS I S PART OF A GOOD RECOVERY
11 PROGRAM
12 Q AND ALTHOUGH YOU DON' T BLAME THE ADDI CT I N
13 ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE, ARE YOU AWARE OF WAYS I N WHI CH
14 ADDI CTS CAN BE HELD RESPONSI BLE FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF
15 THEI R BEHAVI OR WHEN THEY' RE SUFFERI NG FROM ADDI CTI ON?
16 A YES, THERE ARE WAYS OF DOI NG THAT.
17 I N MY CASE, THE WAY - - WHAT HELPED ME GET
18 SOBER WAS A COMBI NATI ON OF THE LEGAL SYSTEM AND MY
19 MEDI CAL LI CENSE, AND THOSE TWO THI NGS - - THAT SORT OF
20 EXTERNAL PRESSURE HELPED ME PAY ATTENTI ON TO MY
21 RECOVERY I N THE EARLY YEARS WHEN I WAS AMBI VALENT ABOUT
22 I T, WHEN I WAS THI NKI NG, " DO I REALLY HAVE THI S
23 PROBLEM? I DON' T KNOW" SORT OF THI NG.
24 AND OVER TI ME, I BEGAN TO SAY, " WHAT
25 HAPPENED TO ME?" SO EARLY ON, YES, YOU COULD - - YOU
26 USE - - YOU USE WHATEVER YOU' VE GOT. I F YOU HAVE THE
27 LEGAL SYSTEM, YOU USE THAT. I F YOU HAVE A LI CENSE, YOU
28 USE THAT. I F YOU HAVE FAMI LY PRESSURE, YOU USE THAT.
866 299-5127
15833
1 YOU USE WHATEVER YOU HAVE THAT' S GOI NG
2 TO - - BECAUSE YOU' RE FI GHTI NG A BEAST WHI CH I S BI GGER
3 THAN THE LOVE OF A FAMI LY, FI GHTI NG A BEAST WHI CH I S
4 BI GGER THAN - - THAN A PERSON BY THEMSELVES.
5 Q SO APPLYI NG THAT TO MR. J ACKSON, AND - - AND
6 DR. SCHNOLL' S OPI NI ON THAT HE COULD HAVE GOTTEN I NTO
7 RECOVERY AND SUCCESSFULLY RECOVERED AND LI VED A LONG,
8 HEALTHY LI FE, DI D YOU SEE I N YOUR REVI EWOF THE RECORDS
9 AND MATERI AL THAT MR. J ACKSON HAD SOME OBSTACLES TO
10 SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY?
11 A I DI D.
12 AND THERE WERE NUMEROUS; AND I ' VE GOT, I
13 THI NK, A CHART THAT SHOWS THAT, AS WELL.
14 Q AND I HAVE THAT AS SLI DE 12. I S THAT WHAT
15 YOU HAVE AT SLI DE 12?
16 A WE' RE SYNCED ON THAT ONE.
17 MS. CAHAN: OKAY. AND THAT WOULD BE
18 EXHI BI T 13573.
19 ANY OBJ ECTI ON TO THAT ONE?
20 MR. BOYLE: AS LONG AS HE' S NOT GOI NG TO GET I NTO
21 THE CUMULATI VE THI NGS, NO OBJ ECTI ON.
22 MS. CAHAN: J UST SO THAT YOU UNDERSTAND THAT, THE
23 LEGAL I SSUE THERE, THE I DEA I S THAT YOU DON' T TALK
24 ABOUT I N DETAI L ANYTHI NG THAT DR. LEVOUNI S ALREADY
25 TESTI FI ED TO.
26 Q OKAY?
27 A YES.
28 AND I ' M SURE SOMEONE WI LL STOP ME I F I GO
866 299-5127
15834
1 THERE. I CERTAI NLY DON' T WANT TO DO THAT.
2 Q OKAY. AND CAN WE PUT THAT SLI DE UP, PAM?
3 THANK YOU.
4 SO I S THI S YOUR ASSESSMENT OF THE OBSTACLES
5 THAT MR. J ACKSON FACED TO SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY?
6 A YES, THOSE ARE THE CATEGORI ES OF THE
7 OBSTACLES.
8 Q AND HOWI S THI S ORGANI ZED? I S THERE A
9 SEQUENCE?
10 A I T STARTS OUT AT SOMETHI NG ABOUT THE
11 ADDI CTI ON I LLNESS I TSELF, AND THEN MOVES ON TO WHAT
12 HAPPENS I N TREATMENT. AND AT THE VERY END, I T TALKS
13 ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS I F HE OBTAI NED TREATMENT. AND THOSE
14 ARE OBSTACLES AT EACH STEP OF THE WAY, I F YOU WOULD.
15 Q SO WE J UST TALKED ABOUT MR. J ACKSON WAS
16 ADDI CTED TO OPI OI DS AT LEAST FROM 1993 TO THE END OF
17 HI S LI FE?
18 A YES.
19 Q HOWDOES THAT AFFECT HI S CHANCES OF
20 SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY?
21 A THERE I S A SUBSTANTI AL BODY OF RESEARCH
22 THAT SAYS THE LONGER SOMEONE I S ON OPI ATE DRUGS, THE
23 HARDER I T I S TO ADJ UST TO - - TO ADJ UST - - SUSTAI N A
24 LI FE I N RECOVERY FROM THOSE OPI ATE DRUGS. AND THAT
25 DATA I S RI CH AND OVER MULTI PLE DECADES WI TH MULTI PLE
26 TYPES OF DRUGS - - MULTI PLE TYPES OF OPI ATE DRUGS.
27 THE OPI ATE DRUGS ESPECI ALLY ARE LI KE A WARM
28 BLANKET, AND I T' S BEEN - - YOU STOP TAKI NG THEM, I T' S
866 299-5127
15835
1 LI KE SOMEONE RI PS OFF THE BLANKET AND YOU HAVE TO FEEL
2 FEELI NGS YOU HAVEN' T FELT, ET CETERA, ET CETERA.
3 Q THE NEXT POI NT ON YOUR LI ST OF OBSTACLES
4 THERE I S NO EVI DENCE OF DRUG- REFUSAL SKI LLS.
5 WHAT ARE DRUG REFUSAL SKI LLS?
6 A EVERYONE WHO I S CHEMI CALLY DEPENDENT - - AND
7 THI S MAKES COMMON SENSE. I F ANYONE I N THE ROOM HAS HAD
8 TO STOP SMOKI NG, FOR I NSTANCE, YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOWTO
9 PROTECT YOURSELVES.
10 WHEN SOMEONE SAYS, " DO YOU WANT A
11 CI GARETTE?" YOU HAVE TO FI GURE OUT I MMEDI ATELY, NO
12 DELAY, HOWTO SAY I T, WHAT TO SAY, GET AWAY FROM I T.
13 SAME THI NG I F YOU' RE AN ALCOHOLI C I N RECOVERY AND
14 YOU' RE AT A PARTY AND SOMEONE SAYS, " WOULD YOU LI KE A
15 BEER?"
16 YOU HAVE TO HAVE SOME I MMEDI ATE RESPONSE.
17 I F PEOPLE ARE PERSI STENT, NOT KI ND ABOUT I T, " COME ON,
18 HAVE A BEER, " THEN YOU HAVE TO START RATCHETI NG UP YOUR
19 RESPONSES. THERE' S A WHOLE SERI ES OF SKI LLS ONE HAS TO
20 HAVE TO CLOSE DOWN PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY DON' T KNOW- -
21 THEY DON' T KNOWTHAT THE ALCOHOL I S - - OR THE DRUGS ARE
22 LI KE DYNAMI TE.
23 I T' S J UST A BEER, AFTER ALL, TO OTHER
24 PEOPLE. SO YOU HAVE TO HAVE THESE DRUG- REFUSAL SKI LLS.
25 Q DI D YOU SEE ANY EVI DENCE I N THE RECORD THAT
26 MR. J ACKSON HAD GOTTEN TRAI NI NG I N DRUG- REFUSAL SKI LLS
27 PRI OR TO THE TI ME HE PASSED AWAY?
28 A NO, I DI D NOT.
866 299-5127
15836
1 Q AND THEN NEXT I S FAI LED RECOVERY ATTEMPTS,
2 AND WE' VE HEARD A BI T ABOUT THE EVI DENCE THERE.
3 HOWDI D MR. J ACKSON' S ATTEMPTS - -
4 UNSUCCESSFUL ATTEMPTS TO RECOVER CREATE AN OBSTACLE.
5 A WHEN YOU ATTEMPT TO RECOVER FROM CHEMI CAL
6 ADDI CTI ON OF ANY SORT - - AGAI N, WE CAN USE THE ANALOGY
7 OF SMOKI NG, THE MORE TI MES YOU FAI L, YOU LOSE SOMETHI NG
8 THAT' S CALLED PERCEI VED EFFI CACY. YOU BEGI N TO FEEL
9 LI KE YOU' RE NEVER GOI NG TO KI CK I T AND SO WI TH EACH
10 SUBSEQUENT FAI LURE, YOU BEGI N TO LOSE FAI TH THAT YOU
11 HAVE THE STRENGTH TO OVERCOME I T.
12 SO OFTENTI MES WHEN I TREAT PEOPLE WHO HAVE
13 BEEN THROUGH SI X OR SEVEN TREATMENTS, WHI CH I S - - YOU
14 KNOW, SOMETI MES THE PEOPLE I WOULD SEE, MY J OB WAS TO
15 SAY - - WAS TO FI GURE OUT HOWTO WORK WI TH THEM TO
16 I NCREASE THEI R SENSE OF SELF EFFI CACY THAT THEY MAY BE
17 ABLE TO OVERCOME I T AND CRAFT SOMETHI NG THAT WOULD
18 HELP.
19 Q MOVI NG - - I ' M SORRY. GO AHEAD.
20 A NO. I ' M DONE.
21 Q YOU' RE GOOD ON THAT? OKAY.
22 NONDI SCLOSURE AND SECRECY, WE TALKED ABOUT
23 WI TH RESPECT TO MR. J ACKSON' S ABUSE OF PROPOFOL AND THE
24 I SSUE OF SYNERGY OF DRUGS. HOWDOES NONDI SCLOSURE AND
25 SECRECY CREATE AN OBSTACLE TO SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY?
26 A WHEN YOU START CREATI NG SI LOS WI TH YOUR
27 HEALTHCARE PROVI DERS - - AND THI S I S ONE OF THE THI NGS
28 WE DO I N MY PREVENTI ON TRAI NI NG.
866 299-5127
15837
1 MR. BOYLE: YOUR HONOR, I ' M GOI NG TO OBJ ECT.
2 HE' S GETTI NG I NTO THE PREVI OUSLY TESTI FI ED - - I T' S FI NE
3 I F HE' S GOI NG TO SAY THAT' S ONE OF THE FACTORS HE
4 RELI ED ON, BUT NOWI T' S REI TERATI NG THE WHOLE - -
5 MS. BI NA: YOUR HONOR, HE DOESN' T GET A SENTENCE
6 OUT BEFORE HE' S I NTERRUPTED. HE' S RELYI NG ON
7 DR. LEVOUNI S' S OPI NI ON. HE OCCASI ONALLY HAS TO REFER
8 TO I T. THAT DOESN' T MAKE I T CUMULATI VE.
9 THE COURT: OVERRULED.
10 MS. CAHAN: WE WERE TALKI NG ABOUT HOW
11 NONDI SCLOSURE AND SECRECY CREATED A PROBLEM I N
12 MR. J ACKSON SUCCESSFULLY RECOVERI NG.
13 THE WI TNESS: WHEN YOU CREATE THESE SI LOS AND
14 DON' T TELL ONE PHYSI CI AN WHAT THE OTHER PHYSI CI AN I S
15 DOI NG, THEN YOU I NCREASE THE POSSI BI LI TY THAT SOMEONE
16 I S GOI NG TO MAKE A BAD CHOI CE AROUND MEDI CATI ON
17 PRESCRI BI NG, AROUND MANAGEMENT.
18 THAT SECRECY COULD BE AS DEEP AS NOT
19 TELLI NG YOUR PROVI DER THAT YOU' RE I N RECOVERY FROM
20 CHEMI CAL DEPENDENCY. ONE OF THE THI NGS THAT I DO WHEN
21 I GO TO THE DOCTOR I S - - I WENT AND HAD SURGERY ON MY
22 KNEE; AND THEY SAI D, " ANYTHI NG YOU NEED TO TELL ME?"
23 AND I SAI D, " YEP. YOU DON' T WANT TO GI VE
24 ME OPI ATES. "
25 THEY SAI D, " WHY NOT?"
26 I SAI D, " BECAUSE ALL HECK BREAKS LOSE. YOU
27 J UST DON' T WANT TO DO THAT. " WE HAD A LONG DI SCUSSI ON
28 ABOUT THAT AND FOUND OTHER WAYS OF MANAGI NG I T. THAT
866 299-5127
15838
1 WAS BECAUSE OF FULL DI SCLOSURE. I T WASN' T PARTI CULARLY
2 PLEASANT FOR ME TO TELL MY SURGEON THAT I WAS A DRUG
3 ADDI CT, BUT I T WAS THERE TO SAVE MY LI FE.
4 Q BY MS. CAHAN: CAN YOU J UST FI X THE
5 PROBLEMS WI TH NONDI SCLOSURE AND SECRECY BY DOI NG
6 SOMETHI NG LI KE DAI LY URI NE TESTS?
7 A NO, YOU CAN' T, BECAUSE FI RST OF ALL, NOT
8 EVERYONE WI LL HAVE ACCESS TO THOSE URI NE SCREENS.
9 SECOND OF ALL, I N MR. J ACKSON' S CASE, HE WAS A VERY
10 PRI VATE MAN, AND I DON' T THI NK URI NE DRUG SCREENS WOULD
11 HAVE EVER WORKED I N SOMEONE WHO - - WI TH HI S FEELI NGS
12 ABOUT PRI VACY.
13 Q AND AREN' T - - I SN' T I T TRUE THAT
14 MR. J ACKSON HAD LEGI TI MATE PAI N AND MEDI CAL NEED
15 SOMETI MES TO TAKE PRESCRI PTI ON MEDI CATI ONS?
16 A ABSOLUTELY.
17 Q AND WOULD A DRUG - - A URI NE DRUG SCREEN BE
18 ABLE TO TELL THE DI FFERENCE BETWEEN MR. J ACKSON TAKI NG
19 PAI NKI LLERS FOR AN APPROPRI ATE MEDI CAL NEED OR ABUSI NG
20 THE SAME PAI NKI LLERS?
21 A ALL THE DRUG SCREEN CAN SAY, DRUGS PRESENT,
22 DRUGS NOT PRESENT. THEY DON' T SAY ANYTHI NG ABOUT
23 WHETHER THEY WERE A RELAPSE OR WHETHER THEY WERE AN
24 APPROPRI ATE DRUG USE FOR A MEDI CAL PROBLEM.
25 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, DI D YOU WANT TO TAKE A - -
26 THE COURT: NO. I WANT HI M TO FI NI SH. HE' S
27 ALMOST DONE, RI GHT?
28 MS. CAHAN: YES.
866 299-5127
15839
1 THE COURT: LET' S J UST FI NI SH YOUR QUESTI ONS.
2 MS. CAHAN: THE NEXT RI SK FACTOR THERE WAS
3 GETTI NG I NTO TREATMENT, AND WE' VE HEARD ABOUT FAI LED
4 I NTERVENTI ONS THAT WERE ATTEMPTED WI TH MR. J ACKSON.
5 Q WHAT' S THE REFERENCE TO " CELEBRI TY LI MI TED
6 TREATMENT AND SUPPORT GROUP OPTI ONS" THERE?
7 A WELL, THI S COMES FROM MY EXPERI ENCE I N
8 TAKI NG CARE OF PEOPLE THAT ARE, OBVI OUSLY, NOWHERE NEAR
9 AS FAMOUS AS MR. J ACKSON, BUT CELEBRI TI ES OF A MEDI UM
10 GRADE. EVEN WI TH THOSE TYPES OF PEOPLE, YOU HAVE A
11 DI FFERENT RELATI ONSHI P.
12 WHEN YOU ARE THE PROVI DER, WHEN YOU TAKE
13 CARE OF PROVI DERS - - WHEN A PROVI DER TAKES CARE OF
14 SOMEONE THAT I S A CELEBRI TY, YOU TEND TO LOSE YOUR
15 BOUNDARI ES. YOU TEND TO WANT TO SAY, " CAN I GO TO YOUR
16 CONCERT?" SO THAT' S A VERY DI FFI CULT THI NG. AND
17 SUPERVI SI ON AROUND THAT I S VERY DI FFI CULT, MAKI NG SURE
18 THAT HAPPENS.
19 WHEN YOU GO TO A SUPPORT GROUP, REMEMBER
20 THAT CONTI NUED SUPPORT GROUP AND ASKI NG FOR HELP FROM
21 OTHERS I S ONE OF THE FOUNDATI ONS OF LONG- TERM RECOVERY.
22 AND PEOPLE AROUND A VERY FAMOUS PERSON HAVE TERRI BLE
23 PROBLEMS - - I ' VE BEEN AROUND NOT ONLY AT A. A. BUT ALSO
24 I N - - I GUESS I SHOULDN' T SAY THAT I N PUBLI C. STRI KE
25 THAT.
26 I HAVE KNOWN PEOPLE THAT GO TO ALCOHOLI CS
27 ANONYMOUS THAT HAVE BEEN AROUND PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMOUS;
28 AND I T' S VERY DI FFI CULT FOR THEM TO ASK FOR HELP, TO
866 299-5127
15840
1 GET THE HELP THEY NEED WI THOUT MI XED AGENDAS ABOUT THE
2 PERSON.
3 SO NOT ONLY PROVI DERS, BUT ALSO SUPPORT
4 GROUPS, A. A. SPONSORS, ALL THOSE SORTS OF FOLKS, I T' S
5 DI FFI CULT TO HAVE TRUST ENOUGH TO ASK FOR HELP WHEN YOU
6 ARE - - WHEN YOU HAVE CELEBRI TY STATUS. I T' S VERY
7 COMPLI CATED.
8 SO, FOR I NSTANCE, I N THE - - I N WASHI NGTON,
9 THERE' S A VERY SELECT A. A. MEETI NG THAT SENATORS AND
10 CONGRESSMEN GO TO; BUT, YOU KNOW, YOU DON' T KNOWABOUT
11 I T, I DON' T KNOWABOUT I T, AND THE PEOPLE WHO VOTE FOR
12 THEM DON' T KNOWABOUT I T.
13 MR. BOYLE: NO FOUNDATI ON I F HE DOESN' T KNOW
14 ABOUT I T, YOUR HONOR.
15 MR. PANI SH: SPECULATI ON.
17 THE WI TNESS: GOOD POI NT.
18 Q BY MS. CAHAN: AND, DR. EARLEY, SO YOU SAW
19 THAT THE FAI LED I NTERVENTI ONS WI TH MR. J ACKSON WERE
20 I NDI CATI VE OF HI M NOT WANTI NG TO GO I NTO TREATMENT AT
21 CERTAI N PERI ODS OF HI S LI FE?
22 A YES.
23 Q ALTHOUGH HE DI D SEEK - - GO I NTO A REHAB
24 TREATMENT VOLUNTARI LY I N 1993?
25 A AND HE DI D SEE DR. FARSHCHI AN FOR
26 NALTREXONE I MPLANTS, AS WELL.
27 Q BUT YOU SAWEVI DENCE THAT HE CONTI NUED TO
28 USE AFTER THOSE TI MES?
866 299-5127
15841
1 A I DI D.
2 Q AND WHAT ABOUT CHRONI C PAI N AND PROCEDURES?
3 HOWDI D THOSE CREATE OBSTACLES TO SUCCESSFUL RECOVERY
4 FOR MR. J ACKSON?
5 A I THI NK I COVERED THAT EARLI ER, BUT THE
6 I SSUE SI MPLY I S WHEN YOU HAVE TO HAVE OPI ATES AND
7 YOU' RE AN OPI OI D ADDI CT, I T' S REALLY COMPLI CATED
8 BECAUSE THE BRAI N DOESN' T KNOWTHE DI FFERENCE. THE
9 BRAI N DOESN' T KNOWWHETHER YOU TOOK THEM TO GET HI GH OR
10 THE DOCTOR GAVE THEM TO YOU. THE BRAI N J UST GOES, " OH,
11 DEMEROL, " AND I T LI GHTS UP AND YOU' RE OFF TO THE RACES.
12 Q OKAY. AND ACCESS TO DRUGS, CAN YOU J UST
13 BRI EFLY TELL US WHAT THAT I S A REFERENCE TO?
14 A WELL, THERE' S' S SEVERAL I SSUES WI TH ACCESS
15 TO DRUGS. I THI NK I T' S CLEAR I N THE - - FROM THE OTHER
16 TESTI MONY THAT YOU' VE HEARD THAT HE HAD READY ACCESS TO
17 DRUGS BECAUSE OF HI S RELATI ONSHI P WI TH PHYSI CI ANS,
18 BECAUSE OF HI S CELEBRI TY STATUS, AND BECAUSE OF HI S
19 PAI N I SSUES.
20 ALL OF THOSE THI NGS LED TO MANY PEOPLE
21 BEI NG - - FALLI NG OVER THEMSELVES TO PRESCRI BE. THAT' S
22 WHAT WAS SAI D BY MS. ROWE.
23 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF
24 OTHER THI NGS I WANTED TO COVER WI TH HI M THAT AREN' T ON
25 THE SLI DES. I T WI LL PROBABLY TAKE 15, 20 MI NUTES.
26 THE COURT: YOU' RE GOI NG TO HAVE TO TELL ME WHAT
27 THAT I S BEFORE WE ALLOWYOU TO DO THAT, SO LET' S TAKE A
28 BREAK NOW.
866 299-5127
15842
1 MS. CAHAN: OKAY.
2 THE COURT: 15 MI NUTES.
3
6 OF THE J URY: )
7
8 THE COURT: WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO COVER THAT YOU
9 HAVEN' T COVERED ALREADY?
10 MS. CAHAN: I T' S QUI CK, YOUR HONOR. ONE POI NT I S
11 THAT UNLI KE - - I DON' T KNOWI F YOU WANT HI M TO STEP OUT
12 FOR THI S.
13 THE COURT: OKAY. WHY DON' T YOU COME BACK I N
14 15 MI NUTES.
15 THE WI TNESS: OKAY.
16 MR. PUTNAM: SI NCE WE HAVEN' T DONE THI S WI TH
17 ANOTHER WI TNESS, I ' M CURI OUS WHAT YOUR HONOR' S CONCERN
18 I S.
19 THE COURT: MY CONCERN I S WE' VE AGAI N OVER A LOT
20 OF THI S STUFF ALREADY AND I T' S BEI NG REPEATED. I DON' T
21 MI ND GOI NG OVER NEWTHI NGS, BUT REPEATED TESTI MONY I S
22 J UST - - J UST THAT, REPEATED. SO WHAT I S I T THAT' S NEW
23 THAT YOU' RE ADDI NG FOR AN EXTRA 15 OR 20 MI NUTES?
24 MS. CAHAN: TWO POI NTS. ONE I S UNLI KE ANY OTHER
25 PHYSI CI ANS OR EXPERTS WHO HAVE TESTI FI ED I N THI S CASE,
26 HE I S I N A UNI QUE POSI TI ON OF TREATI NG PATI ENTS WI TH
27 OPI OI D, BENZO AND PROPOFOL DEPENDENCE I SSUES, SO I WANT
28 TO EXPLORE WI TH HI M A LI TTLE BI T THE RELATI VE
866 299-5127
15843
1 I NCI DENCES OF THOSE AND WHETHER HE SEES A PATTERN OF
2 PEOPLE WHO ABUSE OPI ATES, OPI OI DS, TEND TO GO TO
3 PROPOFOL OR NOT, AND THAT WI LL J UST BE A COUPLE OF
4 MI NUTES.
5 THE COURT: OKAY. SO I T' S NOT 15 TO
6 20 MI NUTES.
7 MS. CAHAN: THAT WI LL BE A FEWMI NUTES. AND THEN
8 THE OTHER TOPI C, WHI CH WI LL ALSO BE A FEWMI NUTES, I S I
9 WANT TO TALK TO HI M A LI TTLE BI T ABOUT THE SYMPTOMS
10 THAT WERE OBSERVED WI TH MR. J ACKSON ON J UNE 19TH.
11 BECAUSE WE' VE HAD DR. SCHNOLL COME I N AND
12 SAY THAT HE DI DN' T THI NK THAT WAS CONSI STENT WI TH
13 OPI OI D WI THDRAWAL BECAUSE OF THE TI MI NG OF THE DOSAGES
14 HE GOT FROM DR. KLEI N. WE ALSO HAD DR. CZEI SLER COME
15 I N AND SAY HE THI NKS I T WAS CONSI STENT WI TH CHRONI C
16 SLEEP DEPRI VATI ON, SO I J UST WANT US TO GET
17 DR. EARLEY' S TAKE ON WHAT THOSE SYMPTOMS LOOK LI KE TO
18 HI M AND WHAT MAKES THE MOST SENSE TO HI M.
19 AND THAT WI LL BE A FEWMI NUTES, AND THAT
20 WI LL BE I T.
21 MR. BOYLE: I DON' T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE FI RST
22 ONE; BUT THE SECOND ONE, THAT' S A NEWOPI NI ON. HE
23 DI DN' T TESTI FY ABOUT WHAT - - I MEAN, J UNE 19TH WAS WELL
24 KNOWN TO EVERYBODY AT THE TI ME OF HI S DEPOSI TI ON, AND
25 HE HAD NO OPI NI ON ON ANY OF THAT STUFF.
26 MS. CAHAN: I BELI EVE THAT HE SAI D THAT THE
27 SYMPTOMS ON J UNE 19TH WERE CONSI STENT WI TH HI M WI TH
28 OPI OI D WI THDRAWAL. HE CERTAI NLY TALKED ABOUT WHAT
866 299-5127
15844
1 OPI OI D WI THDRAWAL LOOKS LI KE, AND HE TESTI FI ED AT
2 DEPOSI TI ON BEFORE DR. CZEI SLER AND BEFORE DR. SCHNOLL.
3 AND, ALSO, OBVI OUSLY, THE TRI AL TESTI MONY
4 HAS ADDRESSED THAT, AND HE HASN' T HAD AN OPPORTUNI TY,
5 AND HE WAS DESI GNATED AS A REBUTTAL EXPERT. AGAI N,
6 I T' S J UST A FEWMI NUTES.
7 MR. PANI SH: WELL, I T' S NOT REBUTTAL. THERE' S NO
8 SUCH THI NG AS REBUTTAL FOR THE DEFENSE.
9 MS. CAHAN: HE WAS DESI GNATED AS AN EXPERT.
10 THE COURT: MS. CAHAN, I ' M TRYI NG TO LI STEN TO
11 MR. PANI SH.
12 MR. PANI SH: YOUR HONOR, I BELI EVE EXHI BI T 2 TO
13 HI S DEPOSI TI ON, HE LI STS THE SPECI FI CS OF HI S OPI NI ONS,
14 WHI CH EVERY ONE OF THEM, WE' VE GONE THROUGH SO FAR
15 TODAY, AND THAT I S NOWHERE NEAR ANYWHERE.
16 AND, I N FACT, THE MATERI ALS THAT HE
17 REVI EWED DI D NOT I NCLUDE AND RELI ED ON THE DEPOSI TI ONS
18 OF THE PEOPLE THERE, NOR ANY OF THE E- MAI LS OR ANY OF
19 THE OTHER I NFORMATI ON RELATED TO THAT, SO I T' S CLEARLY
20 A NEWOPI NI ON.
21 MS. BI NA: J UST A REMI NDER OF THE LAWHERE, YOUR
22 HONOR. A WI TNESS I S NOT PRECLUDED FROM OFFERI NG COLOR
23 OR EVEN FURTHER OPI NI ONS WI THI N THEI R EXPERTI SE UNLESS
24 THEY SPECI FI CALLY STATE AT THEI R DEPOSI TI ON THEY
25 WEREN' T GOI NG TO BE OFFERI NG I T. CASE LAWSAYS YOU CAN
26 OFFER NEWOPI NI ONS AT TRI AL.
27 I DON' T THI NK THERE I S A NEWOPI NI ON, BUT
28 THERE' S NO RULE AGAI NST RESPONDI NG TO TRI AL TESTI MONY,
866 299-5127
15845
1 WHI CH I S WHAT DR. EARLEY I S DOI NG HERE. HE' S
2 RESPONDI NG TO TESTI MONY THAT HAD NOT BEEN GI VEN AT THE
3 TI ME OF HI S DEPOSI TI ON AND PROVI DI NG HI S OWN COLOR ON
4 I T WI THI N HI S AREA OF EXPERTI SE, WHI CH I S PERFECTLY
5 APPROPRI ATE.
6 MS. CAHAN I S MORE FAMI LI AR WI TH THE
7 DEPOSI TI ON TESTI MONY THAN I AM; BUT EI THER WAY, I T
8 WOULD BE APPROPRI ATE TO SPEND A FEWMI NUTES ON THI S
9 BECAUSE I T' S CLEARLY WI THI N HI S EXPERTI SE AND I T' S
10 RESPONDI NG TO TRI AL TESTI MONY THAT HE' S REVI EWED.
11 MR. PANI SH: YOUR HONOR, HE DOESN' T EVEN HAVE
12 THAT I NFORMATI ON LI STED ON ALL THE STUFF SHE READ I NTO
13 THE RECORD THAT HE RELI ED ON AND CONSI DERED FOR HI S
14 OPI NI ONS. HE DOESN' T LI ST GONGAWARE, ANY OF THE
15 E- MAI LS, PHI LLI PS, ANY OF THOSE PEOPLE' S TESTI MONY, AND
16 HE DI DN' T - - HE DI DN' T HAVE I T AT THE TI ME OF HI S
17 DEPOSI TI ON, ANY OF THAT I NFORMATI ON, TO BE QUESTI ONED
18 UPON, AND HE DOESN' T HAVE I T ON THE EXHI BI T.
19 THE COURT: DI D HE HAVE ANY E- MAI LS?
20 MR. BOYLE: NO.
21 BECAUSE I SHOWED HI M SOME E- MAI LS, AND THEY
22 MADE A BI G POI NT THAT HE HAD NEVER SEEN ANY OF THOSE
23 BEFORE.
24 MR. PANI SH: RI GHT.
25 AND MS. CAHAN WENT THROUGH AND READ I NTO
26 THE RECORD EVERYTHI NG HE REVI EWED, RELI ED ON I N THI S
27 CASE, AND NONE OF THAT I NFORMATI ON I S CONTAI NED
28 ANYWHERE WI THI N THAT OR AT HI S DEPOSI TI ON. SO WHEN WE
866 299-5127
15846
1 ASKED HI M AND HE HADN' T HAD I T, HE HAS NO OPI NI ON.
2 FOR HI M NOW, AT THE 9TH - - 11TH HOUR,
3 WHATEVER YOU WANT TO CALL I T - - NOWCOME UP WI TH THI S
4 NEWOPI NI ON I S I NAPPROPRI ATE.
5 MS. CAHAN: YOUR HONOR, I T' S NOT - - FI RST OF ALL,
6 THE TRI AL TESTI MONY HE SAI D HE' S RELYI NG ON I NCLUDES
7 DR. CZEI SLER AND DR. SCHNOLL, WHO BOTH OPI NED - -
8 EXPRESSED THEI R CHARACTERI ZATI ON OF THE SYMPTOMS OF
9 J UNE 19TH AND OPI NED ON THEM.
10 ALSO KAREN FAYE, KENNY ORTEGA,
11 TRAVI S PAYNE, YOU KNOW, HE HAS REVI EWED TESTI MONY - -
12 DI RECT TESTI MONY, HE WAS SHOWN DOCUMENTS AT HI S
13 DEPOSI TI ON.
14 I T' S NOT GOI NG TO BE A LARGE AREA OF
15 EXPLORATI ON, BUT J UST TO THE EXTENT - - I THI NK THERE' S
16 SORT OF CONSENSUS ABOUT THE TYPES OF SYMPTOMS THAT WERE
17 OBSERVED ON J UNE 19TH, AND A DI FFERI NG VI EWAMONG THE
18 EXPERTS AS TO WHAT THOSE ARE REFLECTI VE OF.
19 MR. PANI SH: HE HAD NO OPI NI ON ON ANY OF THI S
20 I NFORMATI ON AT THE TI ME OF HI S DEPOSI TI ON. HE GAVE A
21 LENGTHY LI ST, EXHI BI T 2, OF ALL THE AREAS THAT HE WAS
22 GOI NG TO GO I NTO, AND I T' S NOT ANYWHERE EVEN CLOSE.
23 THE COURT: WELL, HAD CZEI SLER TESTI FI ED YET, OR
24 ANY OF THESE OTHER EXPERTS?
25 MS. CAHAN: NO.
26 YOUR HONOR, HE DI D CARVE OUT HI S RI GHT TO
27 OFFER ADDI TI ONAL TESTI MONY AT PAGE 229 OF THE
28 DEPOSI TI ON. HE WAS ASKED, " DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT YOU
866 299-5127
15847
1 HAVE BEEN - - THAT YOUR DESI GNATI ON AS A TESTI FYI NG
2 EXPERT I N THI S CASE I NCLUDES THAT YOU MAY OFFER
3 REBUTTAL OPI NI ONS I N RESPONSE TO THE TESTI MONY OF
4 PEOPLE WHO HAVEN' T YET TESTI FI ED I N THI S CASE?"
5 ANSWER, " YEAH, YES, THAT' S - - THAT' S HOWI
6 UNDERSTAND I T. "
7 THE COURT: OKAY. YOU HAVE TEN MI NUTES.
8 MR. PANI SH: YOUR HONOR, THEY NEVER ASKED US - -
9 THEY NEVER - - UNDER THE CASES, THEY NEVER NOTI FI ED US
10 THAT THI S WI TNESS WAS GOI NG TO HAVE A NEWOPI NI ON.
11 OKAY?
12 THE COURT: TEN MI NUTES. I ' M GOI NG TO GI VE HER
13 TEN MI NUTES.
14 MR. PANI SH: UNDER THE CASE OF KENNEMUR, SHRI VER,
15 AND - - WHAT' S THE NAME OF THE OTHER CASE?
16 MR. BOYLE: ACTUALLY, BRI AN - -
17 YOUR HONOR, MR. KOSKOFF FOUND THI S FOR ME.
18 I REMEMBER WHEN I WAS TRYI NG TO SHOWAN E- MAI L AT HI S
19 DEPOSI TI ON, I SPECI FI CALLY ASKED, " ARE YOU GOI NG TO BE
20 OPI NI NG ABOUT THE LAST TWO MONTHS OF HI S LI FE?" AND HE
21 SAYS NO. I MEAN, HE SPECI FI CALLY - -
22 MS. CAHAN: WHERE I S THAT I N THE DEPOSI TI ON?
23 MR. BOYLE: I ' LL SHOWYOU, MS. CAHAN.
24 THE COURT: YOU WORK THAT OUT, WE' LL TALK ABOUT
25 I T WHEN WE COME BACK. TEN MI NUTES.
26
27 ( 11- MI NUTE RECESS TAKEN. )
28
866 299-5127
15848
2 DI D YOU HAVE A CHANCE TO GO OVER THOSE
3 OPI NI ONS AND - -
4 MS. CAHAN: YES, YOUR HONOR; AND I DECI DED NOT TO
5 COVER THE J UNE 19TH PI ECE AND WE' RE J UST GOI NG TO TALK
6 FOR A COUPLE OF MI NUTES ABOUT HI S POSI TI ON TREATI NG
7 PEOPLE WI TH ABUSES OF ALL THREE DRUGS.
8 THE COURT: ABUSE OF ALL THREE DRUGS. OKAY.
9
11 I N OPEN COURT, I N THE PRESENCE OF THE
12 J URORS: )
13
15 YOU MAY FI NI SH.
16 MS. CAHAN: THANK YOU, YOUR HONOR.
17 DR. EARLEY, EARLI ER TODAY, WE TALKED A BI T
18 ABOUT THE DI FFERENCES BETWEEN THE ANESTHETI C PROPOFOL
19 AND PRESCRI PTI ON DRUGS LI KE OPI OI DS AND
20 BENZODI AZEPI NES.
21 Q DO YOU REMEMBER THAT?
22 A I DO.
23 Q AND I THI NK YOU SAI D I T' S MUCH MORE COMMON
24 FOR A PERSON TO ABUSE OPI OI DS OR BENZODI AZEPI NES THAN
25 PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
26 A MUCH MORE COMMON.
27 Q AND THAT' S EVEN TRUE I N THE SPECI AL GROUP
28 OF THE SPECI ALI ZED PATI ENT POPULATI ON THAT YOU TAKE
866 299-5127
15849
1 CARE OF, MEDI CAL PROVI DERS?
2 A CORRECT.
3 Q AND I THI NK YOU SAI D 1. 6 PERCENT OF MEDI CAL
4 PROVI DERS REPORT ABUSE OF PROPOFOL.
5 A CORRECT.
6 Q SO I F YOU HAD A PATI ENT THAT YOU KNEWWAS
7 ADDI CTED TO PRESCRI PTI ON OPI OI DS, WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT
8 THAT PATI ENT WAS ALSO ABUSI NG PROPOFOL?
9 A NOT AT ALL.
10 Q WOULD I T SURPRI SE YOU TO FI ND OUT THAT
11 SOMEONE WHO WAS ABUSI NG OPI OI DS OR BENZODI AZEPI NES WAS
12 ALSO ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL?
13 A THAT WOULD SURPRI SE ME.
14 Q WHY?
15 A PARTI ALLY BECAUSE I T' S SO RARE, PARTI ALLY
16 BECAUSE THE ACCESS TO PROPOFOL I S SO LI MI TED, AND
17 PARTI ALLY BECAUSE AS A DRUG OF ABUSE, I T' S - - I DON' T
18 KNOWQUI TE HOWTO DESCRI BE I T BESI DES TO SAY I T' S NOT
19 THAT ATTRACTI VE.
20 Q OKAY. AND BEFORE WHEN I ASKED YOU ABOUT
21 THE 1. 6 PERCENT OF MEDI CAL PROVI DERS, THAT' S NOT
22 1. 6 PERCENT OF ALL MEDI CAL PROVI DERS, RI GHT?
23 A RI GHT. I WAS GOI NG TO CORRECT YOU ON THAT.
24 THAT' S 1. 6 PERCENT OF HEALTHCARE
25 PROFESSI ONALS WHO SHOWUP WI TH ADDI CTI ON DI SORDERS.
26 THANKS GOODNESS I T' S NOT 1. 6 PERCENT - -
27 Q SO BASED ON YOUR EXPERI ENCE TAKI NG CARE OF
28 PEOPLE WHO DO HAVE A VARI ETY OF PRESCRI PTI ON DRUG
866 299-5127
15850
1 ADDI CTI ON I SSUES, DO YOU THI NK I T' S FORESEEABLE THAT
2 SOMEONE WOULD ABUSE PROPOFOL J UST BECAUSE THEY HAD A
3 HI STORY OF ABUSI NG OPI OI D PAI NKI LLERS?
4 MR. BOYLE: OBJ ECT, YOUR HONOR; NO FOUNDATI ON,
5 CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON, NOT WI THI N HI S AREA OF
6 EXPERTI SE. AND, ALSO, AT HI S DEPOSI TI ON HE SAI D HE WAS
7 GOI NG TO TESTI FY ABOUT WHAT A. E. G. KNEWOR DI DN' T KNOW.
8 THE COURT: HE CAN' T DO THAT.
9 MR. PANI SH: AND, ALSO, FORESEEABI LI TY I S A LEGAL
10 QUESTI ON FOR THE J URY.
11 THE COURT: I DI DN' T GET THE QUESTI ON CALLED FOR
12 THAT. I F THAT' S WHAT HI S I NTENTI ON I S, HE CAN' T
13 TESTI FY TO THAT.
14 MS. CAHAN: NO. I ' M NOT ASKI NG ABOUT DEFENDANTS
15 I N THI S CASE, I ' M J UST SAYI NG ANYBODY - -
16 THE COURT: LET ME HEAR THE QUESTI ON.
17 BEFORE YOU ANSWER, LET ME HEAR THE
18 QUESTI ON.
19 Q BY MS. CAHAN: DR. EARLEY, WOULD YOU EXPECT
20 THAT SOMEONE WOULD ABUSE PROPOFOL J UST BECAUSE THEY HAD
21 A HI STORY OF ABUSI NG OPI OI D PAI NKI LLERS?
22 A NO.
23 Q AND DI D YOU REVI EWTHE AUTOPSY AND
24 TOXI COLOGY REPORT FOR MR. J ACKSON?
25 A I DI D.
26 Q AND WE ESTABLI SHED EARLI ER THERE WAS NO
27 DEMEROL FOUND I N MR. J ACKSON' S SYSTEM AT THE TI ME OF
28 HI S PASSI NG?
866 299-5127
15851
1 A CORRECT.
2 Q AND ACCORDI NG TO THE AUTOPSY, WHAT WAS THE
3 CAUSE OF MR. J ACKSON' S DEATH?
4 A PROPOFOL TOXI CI TY OR PROPOFOL OVERDOSE.
5 Q WE HEARD TESTI MONY FROM CHERI LYN LEE LAST
6 WEEK THAT SHE' S SPOKEN WI TH SOME ANESTHESI OLOGI STS WHO
7 HAVE BEEN ASKED BY PATI ENTS ABOUT PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP.
8 DI D YOU REVI EWTHAT TESTI MONY?
9 A I DI D.
10 Q AND DOES THAT CHANGE YOUR OPI NI ON THAT
11 PROPOFOL I S NOT AN APPROPRI ATE TREATMENT FOR I NSOMNI A?
12 A NO.
13 Q DOES THAT CHANGE YOUR VI EWABOUT HOWRARE
14 I T I S FOR ANYONE TO ABUSE PROPOFOL?
15 A NO.
16 Q HAVE YOU SEEN ANY TESTI MONY FROM ANYONE I N
17 THI S CASE WHO HAS SUGGESTED THAT PROPOFOL I S A PROPER
18 TREATMENT FOR I NSOMNI A?
19 A NO.
20 Q I F YOU HAD A PATI ENT WHO YOU KNEWHAD A
21 HI STORY OF I NSOMNI A, WOULD YOU EXPECT THAT PATI ENT TO
22 BE ABUSI NG PROPOFOL?
23 A NO.
24 Q AND WOULD I T SURPRI SE YOU TO FI ND OUT THAT
25 A PATI ENT OF YOURS WAS ABUSI NG - - USI NG PROPOFOL TO
26 TREAT I NSOMNI A?
27 A I T CERTAI NLY WOULD.
28 Q WHY I S THAT?
866 299-5127
15852
1 A BECAUSE I T' S - - I T' S J UST NOT COMMONLY
2 AVAI LABLE. I THI NK I ' VE GONE OVER MANY OF THOSE
3 THI NGS. I T' S NOT COMMONLY AVAI LABLE, I T' S DI FFI CULT TO
4 ADMI NI STER, I T' S HARD TO GET A HOLD OF, THI S SORT OF
5 THI NG.
6 Q AND FAI R TO SAY THAT YOU' VE SEEN A LOT
7 OF - - TREATED A LOT OF PATI ENTS WHO REPORT SI GNS OF
8 I NSOMNI A?
9 A ABSOLUTELY.
10 Q ABOUT HOWCOMMON I S THAT?
11 A APPROXI MATELY 60 TO 70 PERCENT OF PATI ENTS
12 THAT HAVE SUBSTANCE ABUSE DI SORDERS HAVE SI GNI FI CANT
13 I NSOMNI A.
14 Q AND I N YOUR ENTI RE CAREER, YOU' VE TAKEN
15 CARE OF A HANDFUL OF PEOPLE WI TH PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON?
16 A CORRECT.
17 MS. CAHAN: NOTHI NG FURTHER AT THI S TI ME, YOUR
18 HONOR.
20 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON.
21 MR. BOYLE: YES, YOUR HONOR.
22
23 CROSS- EXAMI NATI ON
24 BY MR. BOYLE:
25 Q DR. EARLEY, HOWARE YOU DOI NG?
26 A I ' M GOOD.
27 Q GOOD.
28 AND YOU AND I MET AT YOUR DEPOSI TI ON,
866 299-5127
15853
1 CORRECT?
3 Q NI CE TO SEE YOU AGAI N.
4 A UH- HUH.
5 Q AND, SI R, I ' M GOI NG TO ASK YOU TODAY TO TRY
6 TO LI STEN TO MY QUESTI ON AND ANSWER ONLY MY QUESTI ON.
7 I S THAT OKAY?
8 A ABSOLUTELY.
9 Q BECAUSE SOMETI MES YOU MI GHT WANT TO
10 EDI TORI ALI ZE - - NOT YOU SPECI FI CALLY, BUT PEOPLE DO,
11 AND WANT TO SAY, " WELL, I CAN' T ANSWER THAT YES OR NO,
12 BUT I WANT TO ADD SOMETHI NG. " YOUR LAWYER CAN COME
13 BACK AND HAVE YOU SAY WHAT YOU WANT TO SAY AFTER I ASK
14 YOU THE QUESTI ONS; BUT FOR NOW, I J UST WANT YOU TO
15 ANSWER MY QUESTI ONS.
16 I S THAT OKAY?
17 A I F I CAN ANSWER YES OR NO, I CERTAI NLY
18 WI LL.
19 Q OR WHATEVER I T CALLS FOR, BUT J UST THE
20 QUESTI ON. OKAY? AND I ' LL REMI ND YOU I F YOU' RE NOT.
21 OKAY?
22 A OKAY.
23 Q SI R, DR. EARLEY, WHO GAVE MR. J ACKSON THE
24 PROPOFOL THAT KI LLED HI M?
25 A CONRAD MURRAY.
26 Q AND, SI R, I N THE LAST TWO MONTHS OF
27 MR. J ACKSON' S LI FE, DI D ANYONE GI VE MR. J ACKSON
28 PROPOFOL BUT FOR CONRAD MURRAY?
866 299-5127
15854
1 A NOT THAT THE RECORD REFLECTS.
2 Q SO THERE' S NO EVI DENCE THAT ANYBODY BUT
3 CONRAD MURRAY GAVE MR. J ACKSON PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
4 A I N THE LAST TWO MONTHS OF HI S LI FE, THAT' S
5 CORRECT.
6 MR. BOYLE: AND, SI R, YOU - - ON THI S CHART UP
7 HERE - -
8 YOUR HONOR, MAY I APPROACH THE CHART?
9 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY.
10 MR. BOYLE: THANK YOU. AND THE EXHI BI T NUMBER I S
11 13567.
12 Q ON THI S CHART UP HERE - - DI D YOU MAKE THI S
13 CHART OR DI D THE LAWYERS MAKE THE CHART?
14 A I NEED TO SEE THE CHART.
15 Q THI S CHART HERE.
16 A I REVI EWED THE HI STORY AND ASKED THEM TO
17 CREATE THE GRAPHI CS AND MAKE I T LOOK NI CE BECAUSE I
18 HAVE NO TALENT I N THAT AREA.
19 Q SI R, COULD YOU HOLD UP YOUR STACK OF
20 SLI DES, THI S ONE RI GHT HERE, SHOWI T TO THE J URY?
21 I NOTI CE THAT ALL THE SLI DES HAVE THI S SORT
22 OF BLUE ON TOP AND BLUE AROUND.
23 DI D YOU SELECT THAT BLUE COLOR?
24 A I DI D NOT.
25 I ' M ALSO NOT GOOD WI TH COLOR.
26 Q SO DI D YOU CALL THE EXPERT - - ALL THE OTHER
27 DEFENSE EXPERTS AND SAY, " HEY, WE SHOULD MAKE ALL OUR
28 SLI DES BLUE" ?
866 299-5127
15855
1 A I DI D NOT.
2 Q SO THE LAWYERS DI D THAT, RI GHT?
3 A THE LAWYERS PREPARED THE ACTUAL SLI DES
4 BECAUSE THEY HAVE TALENT I N THAT AREA.
5 Q OKAY. AND, SI R, I SEE ON THI S CHART YOU
6 HAVE " APRI L 19TH, MI CHAEL J ACKSON ASKS LEE FOR PROPOFOL
7 FOR SLEEP. "
8 DO YOU SEE THAT?
9 A I DO.
10 Q OKAY. WELL, REALLY WHAT HE DI D I S HE ASKED
11 HER I F SHE COULD HELP HI M FI ND AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST,
12 CORRECT?
13 A TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTI ON, THAT' S
14 CORRECT.
15 Q OKAY. AND THEN ALSO ON APRI L 18TH, 2009,
16 HE ASKED HI S DOCTOR, DR. METZGER, FOR I NTRAVENOUS SLEEP
17 MEDI CATI ON; I S THAT RI GHT?
19 Q OKAY. SO THI S I S - - WE' RE TALKI NG ABOUT
20 NEAR LATE APRI L HERE. HE ASKED TWO MEDI CAL PEOPLE FOR
21 SOMETHI NG I N REGARDS TO HELPI NG HI M FI ND PROPOFOL,
22 CORRECT?
23 A CORRECT.
24 Q AND I T WAS FOR SLEEP, RI GHT? I T WAS
25 ALWAYS - - I T WAS ALWAYS RELATED TO SLEEP? HE DI DN' T
26 SAY, " GI VE ME SOME PROPOFOL, I J UST WANT TO TAKE
27 PROPOFOL, " I T WAS, " I NEED SOME HELP SLEEPI NG, SO I
28 NEED SOME PROPOFOL, " RI GHT?
866 299-5127
15856
2 Q AND PRETTY - - AND SO THAT' S - - THAT WAS TWO
3 OF THE TI MES MR. J ACKSON EVER ASKED A MEDI CAL PROVI DER
4 FOR PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP, CORRECT?
5 A THOSE ARE TWO OF THE TI MES, YES.
6 Q RI GHT.
7 AND THEN WE KNOWOF A DR. QUI NN. I N 1988
8 OR ' 89, HE ASKED DR. QUI NN FOR PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP,
9 CORRECT?
10 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; MI SSTATES THE EVI DENCE.
11 MR. BOYLE: I ' M SORRY. ' 98 OR ' 99.
12 THE WI TNESS: ' 98 OR' 99 I S CORRECT.
13 Q BY MR. BOYLE: THAT WAS FOR SLEEP, ALSO?
14 A CORRECT.
15 Q AND SHE DI DN' T GI VE I T TO HI M, DI D SHE?
16 A SHE DI D NOT.
17 Q AND DR. METZGER DI DN' T GI VE I T TO
18 MR. J ACKSON, DI D HE?
19 A NO.
20 Q AND DR. LEE DI DN' T HELP HI M FI ND AN
21 ANESTHESI OLOGI ST TO GI VE I T TO HI M, DI D SHE?
22 A SHE DI D NOT.
23 Q AND, DOCTOR, ALSO, I S THERE ANY OTHER TI ME
24 I N THE RECORD WHERE YOU KNOWMR. J ACKSON ASKED SOMEBODY
25 FOR PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP?
26 A SPECI FI CALLY ASKI NG FOR PROPOFOL, NO. HE
27 DI D ASK FOR - - FOR - - TO HELP HI M REST FROM DR. ADAMS,
28 FOR I NSTANCE.
866 299-5127
15857
1 Q DR. ADAMS I S THE DOCTOR I N LAS VEGAS?
2 A HE' S THE ANESTHESI OLOGI ST.
3 Q THE ONE THAT LOOKS LI KE KEVI N GARNETT?
4 ALL RI GHT. OKAY. SO HE ASKED DR. ADAMS
5 FOR SOME HELP SLEEPI NG, RI GHT?
6 A CORRECT.
7 Q AND WHAT YEAR WAS THAT?
8 A 2009, MARCH.
9 Q OKAY. 2009.
10 SO BASI CALLY I N MARCH OF 2009, MI CHAEL
11 WAS - - ASKED DR. ADAMS FOR SOME HELP SLEEPI NG, BUT HE
12 DI DN' T SPECI FY PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
13 A HE DI D NOT.
14 Q AND YOU READ DR. ADAMS' DEPOSI TI ON, I ' M
15 ASSUMI NG?
16 A I DI D.
17 Q AND YOU READ I T CLOSELY, RI GHT?
18 A I DI D MY BEST.
19 Q OKAY. AND SO THEN YOU SAWTHAT DR. ADAMS
20 ACTUALLY SAI D THAT HE - - HE TEXTED DR. MURRAY BACK AND
21 SAI D, " HEY, I WI LL - - I WI LL DO THI S. I WI LL GO ON
22 TOUR WI TH YOU, " RI GHT?
23 RI GHT?
24 A YES, TO THE BEST OF MY RECOLLECTI ON, HE
25 DI D.
26 Q AND YOU ALSO READ THAT DR. ADAMS SAI D " THI S
27 I S GOI NG TO BE A WORLD TOUR, AND I T WAS GOI NG TO BE A
28 THREE- YEAR WORLD TOUR, AND I ' M GOI NG TO GO ON I T WI TH
866 299-5127
15858
1 YOU GUYS, " RI GHT?
2 YOU SAWDR. ADAMS SAY THAT?
3 A I THI NK I - - I ' M J UST GOI NG TO HAVE TO
4 ASSUME YOU' RE RI GHT ABOUT THAT. I DON' T REMEMBER THE
5 EXACT - -
6 MR. BOYLE: I THI NK THE J URY SAWTHAT.
7 MR. PUTNAM: YOUR HONOR, I ASK THE WI TNESS NOT TO
8 ASSUME. I T CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON I F HE DOESN' T KNOW.
9 MR. PANI SH: HE' S COACHI NG THE WI TNESS.
10 MR. PUTNAM: MOVE TO STRI KE FOR SPECULATI ON, YOUR
11 HONOR.
12 THE COURT: MOTI ON GRANTED.
13 MR. BOYLE: TOMORROW, I ' LL PLAY THE DR. ADAMS
14 VI DEO TESTI MONY FOR YOU AND YOU CAN SEE WHAT HE SAI D ON
15 THAT.
16 Q SI R, WHEN YOU READ DR. ADAMS CLOSELY, DI D
17 YOU SEE WHERE DR. ADAMS SAI D THAT MI CHAEL TOLD HI M THE
18 PROMOTERS WOULD GI VE HI M WHATEVER HE WANTED?
19 DI D YOU READ THAT?
20 A I DO NOT RECALL THAT SPECI FI CALLY.
21 Q OKAY. BUT YOU READ I T CLOSELY, RI GHT?
22 A I DI D MY BEST.
23 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. NOW, SI R.
24 YOUR HONOR, MAY I KEEP APPROACHI NG THI S
25 CHART?
26 THE COURT: YES, YOU MAY. YOU DON' T HAVE TO KEEP
27 ASKI NG ME.
28 MR. BOYLE: THANK YOU. BUT I T' S BLOCKI NG THE
866 299-5127
15859
1 FAN, SO THEY PROBABLY WANT THI S THI NG GONE.
2 Q SO APRI L 18TH AND APRI L 19TH, MR. J ACKSON
3 WAS ASKI NG FOR PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP; I S THAT CORRECT?
5 Q SI R, DO YOU KNOWWHAT HAPPENED ON MAY 6TH,
6 2009?
7 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE, YOUR HONOR.
8 MR. BOYLE: WI TH REGARD TO THI S CASE.
9 Q DO YOU KNOWA SI GNI FI CANT THI NG THAT
10 HAPPENED I N REGARD TO THI S CASE ON MAY 6TH, 2009?
12 THE WI TNESS: I DON' T KNOWEXACTLY ABOUT WHAT
13 HAPPENED ON THAT DATE, NO. I CAN LOOK THAT UP I F YOU' D
14 LI KE ME TO.
15 MR. BOYLE: NO. THAT' S OKAY. I ' M GOI NG TO ASK
16 THAT MR. DOWELL PUT UP EXHI BI T - - SHOWI T FI RST TO THE
17 COUNSEL AND THE COURT, EXHI BI T 1129, WHI CH I S A VERSI ON
18 OF YOUR CHART THAT I MADE OVER LUNCH.
19 MS. CAHAN: I S THAT I N EVI DENCE?
20 MR. BOYLE: NOT YET.
21 I T HAS AN I NLAY OF 17351 WHI CH I S I N
22 EVI DENCE. I T' S THE GONGAWARE DONE AT " 150 K PER MONTH"
23 E- MAI L.
24 MS. CAHAN: THAT' S FI NE.
25 MR. BOYLE: MR. DOWELL, WOULD YOU PLEASE SHOW
26 THI S. AND I ' LL TAKE THI S DOWN AND LET YOU HAVE SOME
27 AI R. OKAY.
28 SO, DR. EARLEY - - OKAY.
866 299-5127
15860
1 SO, J OSH, COULD YOU BLOWUP THE I NLAY OF
2 EXHI BI T 175.
3 ALL RI GHT.
4 Q SO, DR. EARLEY, APRI L 18TH, HE ASKS METZGER
5 FOR I NTRAVENOUS SLEEP MEDI CATI ON, CORRECT?
6 A YES.
7 Q APRI L 19TH, MR. J ACKSON ASKS DR. LEE TO
8 HELP HI M FI ND AN ANESTHESI OLOGI ST TO HELP HI M GET
9 PROPOFOL FOR SLEEP, CORRECT?
10 A THAT LOOKS CORRECT, YES.
11 Q OKAY. THEN ON MAY 6TH, 2009,
12 PAUL GONGAWARE E- MAI LS MR. J ACKSON' S ASSI STANT AND
13 SAYS - - WI TH AN E- MAI L TI TLED " DR. MURRAY, " AND I T SAYS
14 " DONE AT 150 K PER MONTH. "
15 HAVE YOU SEEN THAT E- MAI L BEFORE?
16 A NOT TO MY RECOLLECTI ON.
17 Q NOW, SI R, LET ME ASK YOU THI S. AFTER
18 MAY 6TH, 2009, I S THERE ANY EVI DENCE I N THE RECORD THAT
19 MR. J ACKSON EVER ASKED ANYBODY ELSE FOR PROPOFOL?
20 A THERE' S NO EVI DENCE. SOUNDS LI KE HE GOT
21 I T.
22 Q SOUNDS LI KE HE GOT THE PROPOFOL FROM
23 DR. MURRAY, CORRECT?
24 A THAT' S WHAT I T SOUNDS LI KE.
25 Q RI GHT.
26 AND DO YOU KNOWWHO PAUL GONGAWARE I S?
27 A HE - - HE WORKS - - HE' S UP I N THE HI ERARCHY
28 OF A. E. G. LI VE. I DON' T KNOWHI S EXACT - -
866 299-5127
15861
1 Q SO C. E. O. OF A. E. G. LI VE FOR CONCERTS WEST,
2 RI GHT?
3 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON.
5 Q BY MR. BOYLE: DI D YOU READ HI S DEPOSI TI ON?
6 A YES, BUT I DI DN' T REMEMBER HI S TI TLE.
7 Q OKAY. BUT HE' S HI GH UP AT A. E. G. LI VE,
8 RI GHT?
9 A I KNEWTHAT.
10 Q AND ON MAY 6, 2009, HE SENT AN E- MAI L,
11 SUBJ ECT LI NE " DR. MURRAY, " RI GHT?
12 I S THAT CORRECT?
13 A THAT LOOKS CORRECT.
14 Q AND YOU KNOW, SI R, FROM YOUR REVI EWOF THE
15 RECORD THAT DR. MURRAY WAS GOI NG TO BE PAI D 150 K PER
16 MONTH, CORRECT?
17 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON,
18 OUTSI DE THE SCOPE.
20 THE WI TNESS: THAT' S WHAT THE E- MAI L SAYS.
21 Q BY MR. BOYLE: BUT YOU' VE HEARD THAT I N
22 OTHER THI NGS YOU' VE READ I N THE RECORD, RI GHT? 150, 000
23 A MONTH, ALL THAT, RI GHT?
24 A I HAVE HEARD I T ELSEWHERE, AS WELL.
25 Q SO MR. J ACKSON FOUND HI S PROPOFOL, CORRECT?
27 Q FROM THE DOCTOR HI RED BY A. E. G. LI VE,
28 RI GHT?
866 299-5127
15862
1 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON - -
2 MR. PUTNAM: THAT GOES TO THE ULTI MATE FACT, YOUR
3 HONOR.
4 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED AS TO THE USE OF THE WORD
5 " HI RED. "
6 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
7 Q ASSUMI NG THAT A. E. G. LI VE HI RED
8 DR. MURRAY - - ARE YOU OKAY WI TH THAT ASSUMPTI ON, J UST
9 ASSUMI NG THAT?
10 A OKAY. I ' LL ASSUME THAT AS A HYPOTHETI CAL.
11 Q BY MR. BOYLE: AND AS YOU TESTI FI ED BEFORE,
12 MR. J ACKSON FOUND HI S PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
13 A MR. J ACKSON FOUND - - WHAT HE FOUND HERE WAS
14 DR. MURRAY. I DON' T KNOWABOUT THE PROPOFOL PART, BUT
15 I CERTAI NLY KNOW- -
16 Q SI R, I CAN PULL UP YOUR TESTI MONY. YOU
17 SAI D BEFORE I T WAS - - WHEN I ASKED YOU I F HE ASKED
18 ANYBODY ELSE FOR PROPOFOL AFTER MAY 6TH, YOU SAI D NO
19 BECAUSE HE ALREADY FOUND HI S PROPOFOL, DI DN' T YOU?
20 A THAT' S PROBABLY ACCURATE.
21 Q OKAY. SO WHAT CHANGED BETWEEN APRI L 19TH
22 AND MAY 6TH I S PAUL GONGAWARE GOT THE DEAL DONE WI TH
23 DR. MURRAY, CORRECT?
24 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON,
25 YOUR HONOR, AND VAGUE, AS WELL.
27 THE WI TNESS: ALL I KNOWFROM THI S I S THAT I T
28 SAYS " DONE. " I DON' T KNOWWHO - - I T SAYS WHO DI D I T OR
866 299-5127
15863
1 HOWI T WAS DONE, I T J UST SAYS I T WAS DONE.
2 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
3 Q SO THE DEAL WAS DONE, CORRECT?
4 MR. PUTNAM: SAME OBJ ECTI ON, YOUR HONOR. I T GOES
5 TO THE ULTI MATE I SSUE, LEGAL CONCLUSI ON.
6 THE COURT: J UST DONE. OVERRULED.
7 THE WI TNESS: THE DEAL WAS DONE.
8 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. ALL RI GHT, J OSH. YOU CAN TAKE
9 THAT DOWN.
10 Q DR. EARLEY, YOU HAVE AN EXTENSI VE WEBSI TE;
11 I S THAT CORRECT?
12 A I ' M NOT SURE I ' D CHARACTERI ZE I T AS
13 EXTENSI VE; BUT I DO HAVE A WEBSI TE, YES.
14 Q DO YOU RECALL YOU AND I , I N YOUR
15 DEPOSI TI ON, TALKED ABOUT YOUR WEBSI TE A LOT?
16 A WE DI D.
17 Q AND WE TALKED ABOUT ALL THE VARI OUS PAGES
18 AND BLOGS AND ARTI CLES YOU HAVE LI NKED ON YOUR WEBSI TE,
19 RI GHT?
20 A RI GHT.
21 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. AND, J OSH, I ' D LI KE TO SHOWTO
22 COUNSEL AND THE J UDGE - - J OSH, ARE YOU READI NG MY MI ND?
23 13028. I ' M SORRY. 13024. 13024. AND FOR THE
24 DEFENSE, THI S WAS EXHI BI T 7 TO DR. EARLEY' S
25 DEPOSI TI ON - - EXHI BI T 17 TO DR. EARLEY' S DEPOSI TI ON.
26 MS. CAHAN: NO OBJ ECTI ON.
27 MR. BOYLE: I ' D LI KE TO - - I ' D LI KE TO SHOWTHI S
28 TO THE J URY, PLEASE, J OSH.
866 299-5127
15864
1 Q AND, DR. EARLEY, YOU TOLD ME I N YOUR
2 DEPOSI TI ON THI S I S A - - WOULD YOU CALL THI S A BLOG THAT
3 YOU WROTE?
4 A YES.
5 Q AND I T' S TI TLED " MI CHAEL J ACKSON, ADDI CTI ON
6 I N THE PRI VI LEGED" ; I S THAT CORRECT?
7 A YES.
8 Q AND THEN I T' S GOT A PI CTURE OF PROPOFOL ON
9 I T, RI GHT?
10 A YES.
11 Q NOW, SI R, WHEN YOU - - WHEN YOU WROTE AND
12 POSTED THI S BLOG, THI S WAS SHORTLY AFTER MR. J ACKSON' S
13 DEATH, CORRECT?
14 A I T WAS.
15 Q WI THI N - - WI THI N DAYS, CORRECT?
16 A PROBABLY WEEKS I S MORE ACCURATE.
17 Q OKAY. WI THI N WEEKS.
18 NOW, SI R, HAD YOU BEEN HI RED BY A. E. G. ON
19 THI S CASE AT THAT TI ME?
20 A I HAD NOT.
21 Q YOU HAD NOT. OKAY.
22 SO, SI R, HAD YOU SEEN ANY OF THE MEDI CAL
23 RECORDS I N THI S CASE AT THE TI ME?
24 A I HAD NOT.
25 Q SI R, HAD YOU SEEN ANY OF THE DEPOSI TI ONS I N
26 THI S CASE AT THE TI ME?
27 A I HAD NOT.
28 Q HAD YOU SEEN THE CORONER' S REPORT?
866 299-5127
15865
1 A I HAD NOT. I HAD ONLY - -
2 Q THE CORONER' S REPORT WASN' T EVEN OUT YET,
3 WAS I T?
4 A I WOULDN' T KNOWTHAT, BUT I HAD NOT SEEN
5 I T.
6 Q SO MI CHAEL J ACKSON DI ED ON J UNE 25TH, 2009.
7 WI THI N A FEWWEEKS OF THAT, SI R, YOU ALREADY PUBLI CLY
8 DETERMI NED THAT HE WAS ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL AND PUT I T
9 ON YOUR WEBSI TE WI THOUT READI NG ONE THI NG, DI DN' T YOU?
10 A THAT' S ACTUALLY I NCORRECT.
11 Q OH, I T I S?
12 THE TI TLE OF THE ARTI CLE I S NOT
13 " MI CHAEL J ACKSON, ADDI CTI ON I N THE PRI VI LEGED" ?
14 A THAT I S - -
15 Q I S THAT THE TI TLE OF THE ARTI CLE, SI R?
16 A THAT I S THE TI TLE OF THE ARTI CLE, AND
17 YOU' RE MI SREPRESENTI NG I T.
18 Q SI R, DOESN' T THAT I MPLY THAT YOU' RE SAYI NG
19 MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS PRI VI LEGED?
20 A I WOULD SAY THAT EVERYONE WOULD AGREE THAT
21 MR. J ACKSON WAS PRI VI LEGED, YES.
22 Q OKAY, SI R. AND DOESN' T I T ALSO I MPLY THAT
23 MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED?
24 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE AS TO " ADDI CTED, "
25 YOUR HONOR.
27 THE WI TNESS: THE - - YOU' RE MI SREPRESENTI NG THE
28 I NTENT OF THE BLOG AND - -
866 299-5127
15866
1 MR. BOYLE: TRY TO ANSWER MY QUESTI ON, SI R.
2 Q DOESN' T I T I MPLY, LI KE YOU SAI D - -
3 A I T DOES NOT.
4 Q - - COLON, " PRI VI LEGE" - - YOU SAI D I T
5 I MPLI ED PRI VI LEGE.
6 DOESN' T I T ALSO I MPLY THAT YOU WERE SAYI NG
7 THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED?
8 A I WAS NOT I MPLI CATI NG HI M AS BEI NG ADDI CTED
9 BY THAT BLOG.
10 Q OKAY. AND THEN YOU PUT A BI G GI ANT BOTTLE
11 OF PROPOFOL I N THERE, TOO.
12 COULD YOU BLOWTHAT UP, J OSH.
13 NOW, SI R, WEREN' T YOU I MPLYI NG WI THI N A FEW
14 WEEKS OF MR. J ACKSON DYI NG THAT HE WAS ADDI CTED TO
15 PROPOFOL WI THOUT KNOWI NG ONE THI NG ABOUT THI S CASE?
16 A I F YOU READ THE ENTI RE BLOG YOU WOULD KNOW
17 THAT THAT' S NOT THE CASE. YOU' RE MI SCONSTRUI NG WHAT I
18 WROTE.
19 Q I DI D READ THE ENTI RE BLOG, SI R.
20 SI R, DO YOU THI NK THAT THE A. E. G. LAWYERS
21 FROM O' MELVENY & MYERS FOUND YOU BY GOOGLI NG AND THEY
22 FOUND YOUR BLOG AND THAT' S WHY THEY CALLED YOU?
23 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON.
24 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED, CALLI NG FOR SPECULATI ON.
25 Q BY MR. BOYLE: DO YOU KNOWHOWTHEY FOUND
26 YOU?
27 A I DO NOT.
28 Q I S I T A POSSI BI LI TY THAT THEY FOUND YOU ON
866 299-5127
15867
1 A GOOGLE SEARCH, AND THEY SAY, " HEY, WE GOTTA HI RE THI S
2 GUY. HE ALREADY THI NKS MI CHAEL WAS ADDI CTED TO
3 PROPOFOL" ?
4 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; ARGUMENTATI VE AND CALLS
5 FOR - -
6 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED; ARGUMENTATI VE.
7 Q BY MR. BOYLE: SI R, YOU DON' T EVEN HAVE THE
8 OPI NI ON THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL
9 AS YOU SI T HERE TODAY, CORRECT?
10 A THAT' S CORRECT, BECAUSE I ' VE USED
11 SCI ENTI FI C PRI NCI PLES TO UNDERSTAND I T.
12 Q SO WHY DI DN' T YOU TAKE THI S BLOG DOWN OFF
13 YOUR WEBSI TE?
14 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE AND CALLS FOR
15 SPECULATI ON, YOUR HONOR. HE' S ALREADY I NDI CATED HE
16 DOESN' T BELI EVE - -
17 MR. PANI SH: YOUR HONOR, MR. PUTNAM - -
19 Q BY MR. BOYLE: WHY DI DN' T YOU TAKE THE BLOG
20 OFF YOUR WEBSI TE?
21 A BECAUSE THE BLOG - - I F YOU READ THE ENTI RE
22 BLOG, THE BLOG DOES NOT - - I T DOES NOT I MPLY THAT
23 MR. J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED. THE STORY UNDERSCORES THAT
24 I SSUE.
25 MR. BOYLE: I DI SAGREE WI TH YOU, SI R.
26 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; MOVE TO STRI KE, YOUR
27 HONOR.
866 299-5127
15868
1 Q BY MR. BOYLE: SI R, HAVE YOU POSTED ON YOUR
2 WEBSI TE ANYWHERE THAT YOU - - YOU DI DN' T HAVE ENOUGH
3 I NFORMATI ON TO DETERMI NE THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS
4 ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL?
5 HAVE YOU POSTED THAT ANYWHERE?
6 A I T' S I MPLI ED I N THE CONTEXT I F YOU READ I T
7 CAREFULLY.
8 Q OH, SO YOU HAD ALREADY MADE YOUR OPI NI ON UP
9 ON THAT A FEWWEEKS AFTER MI CHAEL J ACKSON DI ED?
10 A NO.
11 I DI DN' T THI NK I T WAS MY PLACE TO I MPLY
12 THAT HE WAS ADDI CTED, BUT THAT THE STORY UNDERSCORES AN
13 I SSUE WHI CH I S PREVALENT I N OUR SOCI ETY. THAT' S WHAT I
14 WAS TRYI NG - - THE POI NT I WAS TRYI NG TO MAKE; AND I F
15 YOU READ THE BLOG, YOU' D SEE THAT
16 Q OKAY. I ' LL READ THE FI RST TWO SENTENCES.
17 FI RST SENTENCE, " ADDI CTI ON I S A DI SEASE OF EXCESS. "
18 SECOND SENTENCE, " ONE MI GHT HYPOTHESI ZE HOW
19 MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS A VI CTI M OF CHI LDHOOD ABUSE AND
20 WOUND UP USI NG DRUGS I NI TI ALLY TO QUELL HI S PAI N. "
21 DO YOU SEE THAT SENTENCE? YOU WROTE THAT,
22 CORRECT?
24 Q AND YOU NEVER MET ANYBODY I N MR. J ACKSON' S
25 FAMI LY, CORRECT?
26 A THAT' S WHY I USED THE WORD " HYPOTHESI ZE"
27 AND I DI D NOT USE THE WORD " ADDI CTI ON" I N THAT
28 SENTENCE, SI R.
866 299-5127
15869
1 Q SO YOU' RE J UST THROWI NG THAT OUT THERE TO
2 THE WORLD THAT ONE MI GHT HYPOTHESI ZE THAT HE WAS ABUSED
3 AS A CHI LD?
4 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON, YOUR HONOR;
5 ARGUMENTATI VE.
6 THE COURT: WAI T A MI NUTE, THERE' S AN
7 OBJ ECTI ON.
8 MR. BOYLE: SI R, ARE YOU HAPPY THAT MRS. J ACKSON
9 I S NOT HERE TODAY TO SEE YOU - -
10 THE COURT: WAI T. THERE' S AN OBJ ECTI ON.
11 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON, YOUR HONOR;
12 ARGUMENTATI VE.
14 START ALL OVER, MR. BOYLE.
15 Q BY MR. BOYLE: DR. EARLEY, DI DN' T YOU - -
16 DI DN' T YOU VI OLATE - - DI DN' T YOU MAKE ETHI CAL
17 VI OLATI ONS BY POSTI NG THI S BLOG?
18 A I DI D NOT.
19 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE AS TO " ETHI CAL
20 VI OLATI ONS, " YOUR HONOR.
22 THE WI TNESS: I DI D NOT.
23 MR. BOYLE: YOU DI D NOT. OKAY.
24 Q SI R, YOU' RE A MEMBER OF ASAM, ARE YOU NOT?
25 A YES.
26 I T' S CALLED ASAM.
27 Q ASAM. SORRY.
28 AND WHAT DOES I T STAND FOR?
866 299-5127
15870
1 A THE AMERI CAN SOCI ETY OF ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE.
2 Q AND ARE YOU TELLI NG US RI GHT - - AS YOU SI T
3 HERE TODAY I T I S OKAY WI TH THE AMERI CAN SOCI ETY FOR
4 ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE TO WRI TE A BLOG OR AN I NTERNET SI TE
5 THAT I MPLI ES SOMETHI NG ABOUT A CELEBRI TY AND ADDI CTI ON?
6 ARE YOU TELLI NG US THAT' S OKAY?
7 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE, YOUR HONOR. HE' S
8 I NDI CATED THAT' S NOT WHAT HE BELI EVES OR I MPLI ES,
9 THAT' S WHY - -
11 THE WI TNESS: THAT I S NOT WHAT THE - - I F YOU READ
12 THE ARTI CLE CAREFULLY AND YOU DI DN' T HAVE A PREJ UDI CE
13 ABOUT I T, YOU WOULD COME TO THE SAME CONCLUSI ON THAT I
14 WAS TRYI NG I LLUSTRATE THE POI NT.
15 MR. BOYLE: I ' M NOT THE ONE WI TH THE PREJ UDI CE,
16 SI R.
17 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; ARGUMENTATI VE.
18 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED. THE QUESTI ON I S
19 STRI CKEN.
20 Q BY MR. BOYLE: MY QUESTI ON WAS, ARE THERE
21 A. S. A. M. STANDARDS THAT PREVENT DOCTORS WHO ARE MEMBERS
22 OF A. S. A. M. FROM PUBLI CLY OPI NI NG ON THE ADDI CTI ON
23 STATUS OF CELEBRI TI ES?
24 A THERE ARE STANDARDS WHI CH SAY ONE CANNOT
25 DI AGNOSE THOSE PEOPLE, BUT THERE - - YOU KNOW, STORI ES
26 I N OUR CULTURE HELP US UNDERSTAND THI S - - THI S DI SEASE
27 WHI CH I S MI SUNDERSTOOD. MY PURPOSE I N WRI TI NG THE BLOG
28 WAS TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE COMPLEX DI SEASE OF
866 299-5127
15871
1 ADDI CTI ON.
2 Q SI R, REMEMBER WHEN I ASKED YOU AT THE VERY
3 BEGI NNI NG I F YOU' D J UST TRY TO ANSWER MY QUESTI ONS?
4 A I WI LL DO MY BEST.
5 Q THAT' S ONE OF THOSE TI MES.
6 A I ' M SORRY. I WAS TRYI NG TO HELP. I
7 APOLOGI ZE.
8 Q SO A. S. A. M. HAS A STANDARD THAT SAYS A
9 MEMBER OF A. S. A. M. LI KE YOURSELF CAN' T PUBLI CLY
10 DI AGNOSE A CELEBRI TY, CORRECT?
11 A THAT' S NOT A WRI TTEN STANDARD. THAT I S
12 SOMETHI NG THAT WE ADHERE TO, THOUGH.
13 Q OKAY. AND DI D YOU RUN THAT BY THE MEMBERS
14 OF YOUR ORGANI ZATI ON TO SEE I F I T' S OKAY I F YOU START
15 BLOGGI NG ABOUT THE DEATH OF MI CHAEL J ACKSON I N YOUR
16 BLOG?
17 A I DI D NOT.
18 Q OKAY.
19 A BECAUSE - -
20 Q AND, SI R, I N THAT BLOG ABOUT
21 MI CHAEL J ACKSON, DI DN' T YOU MAKE A DETERMI NATI ON AS TO
22 HOWHE WAS TAKI NG THE DRUG?
23 A YES.
24 BECAUSE THE DRUG CAN ONLY BE USED
25 I NTRAVENOUSLY TO ANY GOOD EFFECT; SO I T WASN' T AN
26 ASSUMPTI ON, I T WAS A MEDI CAL CERTI TUDE.
27 Q MR. DOWELL, WOULD YOU PLEASE PUT BACK UP
28 13024. THE THI RD PARAGRAPH DOWN, I ' D LI KE YOU TO SHOW
866 299-5127
15872
1 THE FI RST SENTENCE.
2 " PROPOFOL I S ONLY USED I NTRAVENOUSLY SO WE
3 ARE - - SO WE ARE CLEAR THAT DRUGS WERE BEI NG MAI NLI NED
4 I N THE J ACKSON HOUSEHOLD, " RI GHT?
5 A THAT' S WHAT I T SAYS.
6 Q SO THREE WEEKS AFTER MR. J ACKSON' S DEATH - -
7 AT THI S TI ME YOU HADN' T READ THE POLI CE REPORT, RI GHT?
8 A CORRECT.
9 Q HADN' T READ THE CORONER' S REPORT, RI GHT?
10 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; ASKED AND ANSWERED, YOUR
11 HONOR.
13 Q BY MR. BOYLE: RI GHT?
14 A CORRECT.
15 Q HADN' T READ ANYTHI NG I N THI S CASE, CORRECT?
16 A I HAD ONLY READ WHAT I HAD SEEN I N THE
17 PAPERS.
18 Q BUT YOU MADE THE DETERMI NATI ON AS AN
19 ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE DOCTOR THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS, QUOTE,
20 MAI NLI NI NG PROPOFOL I N HI S HOUSE, RI GHT?
21 A I WAS MAKI NG THE CONCLUSI ON THAT I T WAS
22 I NTRAVENOUSLY ADMI NI STERED TO MAKE A POI NT ABOUT THE
23 DANGERS OF THE DRUG.
24 Q YOU DON' T THI NK " MAI NLI NE" CONTAI NS SOME
25 NEGATI VE CONNOTATI ONS?
26 A MUCH OF WHAT I DO I N ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE HAS
27 CONNOTATI ONS WHI CH ARE DI FFI CULT OR COMPLEX.
28 Q WERE YOU CONCERNED WHEN YOU WROTE THI S AND
866 299-5127
15873
1 PUT I T ON YOUR WEBSI TE THAT MR. J ACKSON' S MOTHER MI GHT
2 SEE I T?
3 A ACTUALLY, I WAS HOPI NG THAT THE J ACKSONS
4 WOULD USE THI S AS AN OPPORTUNI TY TO UNDERSCORE
5 ADDI CTI ON AND TO HELP PEOPLE KNOWMORE ABOUT I T.
6 Q OH, REALLY?
7 SO THREE WEEKS AFTER HE DI ED, YOU WANTED TO
8 SEND A MESSAGE TO MRS. J ACKSON AND MAKE HER UNDERSTAND
9 MAI NLI NI NG OF PROPOFOL? THAT WAS YOUR MOTI VATI ON HERE?
10 A NO. YOU' RE KI ND OF REDUCI NG THI S - - MY
11 THOUGHTS; BUT AT THE TI ME, I T WAS - - BECAUSE I T WAS I N
12 THE NEWS, BECAUSE ADDI CTI ON I S SO MI SUNDERSTOOD I N OUR
13 SOCI ETY, I T WAS HELPFUL TO USE THI S AS A WAY OF
14 UNDERSTANDI NG THI S DI SEASE.
15 Q MR. DOWELL, WOULD YOU SHOWTHE FI RST
16 PARAGRAPH HERE?
17 AND I WANT - - THE - - THE SECOND TO LAST
18 SENTENCE SAYS " ONCE ADDI CTI ON TAKES HOLD, " FOUR LI NES
19 UP FROM THE END OF THE FI RST PARAGRAPH.
20 " ONCE ADDI CTI ON TAKES HOLD, THE ADDI CT HAS
21 WI NDOWS OF OPPORTUNI TY EVERY TI ME THEY SUFFER
22 CONSEQUENCES. THE CONSEQUENCES, ESPECI ALLY WHEN
23 SEVERE, PUNCTURE THE ADDI CT' S DEFENSES AND DENI AL, A
24 WI FE FI LI NG FOR DI VORCE, BEI NG THROWN I N J AI L FOR DRUNK
25 DRI VI NG UNDER THE I NFLUENCE, ET CETERA, MAY FORCE THE
26 ADDI CT TO RETHI NK THEI R CURRENT PATH. "
27 THERE YOU WERE WRI TI NG ABOUT THE
28 CONSEQUENCES OF ADDI CTI ON, CORRECT?
866 299-5127
15874
2 Q AND THAT SOMETI MES THOSE CONSEQUENCES GI VE
3 THE ADDI CT AN OPPORTUNI TY TO GET BEYOND THEI R
4 ADDI CTI ON, RI GHT?
6 Q NOW, MR. DOWELL, SHOWTHE FI RST SENTENCE OF
7 THE NEXT PARAGRAPH.
8 " FOR MI CHAEL J ACKSON, THE CONSEQUENCES
9 NEVER DI D OCCUR. " YOU WROTE THAT, RI GHT?
11 Q SO WEREN' T YOU I MPLYI NG THERE THAT
12 MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS AN ADDI CT?
13 A NO, SI R.
14 I WAS TRYI NG TO BE CLEAR ABOUT THE FACT - -
15 TRYI NG TO USE THI S CASE AS A WAY OF HELPI NG PEOPLE
16 UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENS I N ADDI CTI ON, WHI CH I S HI GHLY
17 MI SUNDERSTOOD I N OUR SOCI ETY.
18 Q WELL, SI R, RI GHT ABOVE I T YOU WERE TALKI NG
19 ABOUT CONSEQUENCES SUFFERED BY ADDI CTS, AND THEN YOU
20 SAY FOR MI CHAEL J ACKSON, THE CONSEQUENCES NEVER DI D
21 OCCUR.
22 ARE YOU TRYI NG TO TELL US YOU WEREN' T
23 TRYI NG TO I MPLY THAT MR. J ACKSON WAS AN ADDI CT?
24 A NO, BECAUSE THE FI RST SENTENCE YOURSELF
25 SAI D ONCE I T TAKES HOLD THE ADDI CT HAS WI NDOWS OF
26 OPPORTUNI TI ES. AND THEN I CONTRAST I T AND SAY FOR
27 MI CHAEL J ACKSON, THI S DI DN' T OCCUR. I F ANYTHI NG, I F
28 YOU WOULD READ THOSE TWO SENTENCES, YOU WOULD SAY HE
866 299-5127
15875
1 MUST NOT BE TALKI NG ABOUT AN ADDI CT WI THOUT - -
2 Q YOU' RE SAYI NG THAT WI TH A STRAI GHT FACE?
3 MR. PUTNAM: MOTI ON TO STRI KE, YOUR HONOR.
5 MR. BOYLE: PLEASE READ THE FI RST SENTENCE OF THE
6 SECOND PARAGRAPH LOUD.
7 THE WI TNESS: " FOR MI CHAEL J ACKSON, THE
8 CONSEQUENCES NEVER DI D OCCUR. "
9 Q BY MR. BOYLE: THE CONSEQUENCES NEVER
10 OCCUR, RI GHT?
11 A UH- HUH.
12 Q CORRECT?
13 A UH- HUH.
14 Q I S THAT A YES?
15 A THAT I S CORRECT.
16 Q THE CONSEQUENCE OF ADDI CTI ON, YOU WERE
17 REFERRI NG TO, CORRECT?
18 A RI GHT.
19 Q RI GHT.
20 THEN YOU SAY UP THERE - - YOU J UST TRI ED TO
21 TALK YOUR WAY OUT OF I T, BUT I T' S PRETTY CLEAR ONCE
22 ADDI CTI ON TAKES HOLD, THE ADDI CT HAS WI NDOWS OF
23 OPPORTUNI TY EVERY TI ME THEY SUFFER CONSEQUENCES, RI GHT?
24 THAT' S WHAT THAT SENTENCE SAYS?
25 MR. PUTNAM: I MOVE TO STRI KE AGAI N. HE KEEPS
26 COMMENTI NG ABOUT WHAT HE THI NKS ABOUT THE TESTI MONY.
27 THE COURT: MOTI ON DENI ED.
28 MR. BOYLE: RI GHT? I S THAT WHAT I T SAYS, SI R?
866 299-5127
15876
1 THAT WAS MY QUESTI ON.
2 THE WI TNESS: WHEN YOU WRI TI NG, I T' S COMPARE AND
3 CONTRAST; AND I WAS TRYI NG TO COMPARE AND CONTRAST.
4 Q BY MR. BOYLE: DI D I READ THAT SENTENCE
5 RI GHT? " ONCE ADDI CTI ON TAKES HOLD, THE ADDI CT HAS
6 WI NDOWS OF OPPORTUNI TY EVERY TI ME THEY SUFFER
7 CONSEQUENCES" ? DI D I READ THAT RI GHT?
8 A YES.
9 Q TELL ME I F I READ THI S ONE RI GHT. " FOR
10 MI CHAEL J ACKSON, THE CONSEQUENCES NEVER DI D OCCUR, "
11 CORRECT?
12 A RI GHT.
13 BECAUSE THE ADDI CT HAS WI NDOWS OF
14 OPPORTUNI TY. I DON' T KNOW- -
15 Q OKAY. LET' S LOOK AT THE NEXT SENTENCE,
16 THEN.
17 " THI S I S AN OLD STORY, ONE THAT I S REPEATED
18 OVER AND OVER WI TH THE HOLLYWOOD SET. " NOW, WHAT YOU
19 WERE REFERRI NG TO THERE - - CORRECT? - - I S THAT THE
20 PEOPLE I N THE HOLLYWOOD SET, THE ADDI CT I N THE
21 HOLLYWOOD SET, SOMETI MES DON' T SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES,
22 RI GHT?
23 A I F YOU' RE AN ADDI CT AND YOU I DON' T HAVE
24 CONSEQUENCES, WHAT I WAS TRYI NG TO SHOWTHERE I S THAT
25 THAT I S EXTREMELY DANGEROUS.
26 Q SO - - OKAY. HOWABOUT THE - - HOWABOUT THE
27 FI RST SENTENCE OF THE FOURTH PARAGRAPH, " THE I SSUE WI TH
28 PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON I N PROFESSI ONALS HAS COME TO THE
866 299-5127
15877
1 FOREFRONT DUE TO MI CHAEL J ACKSON' S UNTI MELY DEATH" ?
2 DI D I READ THAT ONE CORRECTLY?
3 A YOU DI D.
4 Q ARE YOU STANDI NG BY YOUR STATEMENT THAT
5 THI S BLOG WAS NOT TRYI NG TO I MPLY THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON
6 WAS ADDI CTED?
7 A THE - - THE POI NT I WAS TRYI NG TO MAKE I S
8 THAT HI S UNTI MELY DEATH BRI NGS THI S TO THE FORE, AND
9 I T' S TI ME TO TALK ABOUT I T. I T WAS AN ATTEMPT TO GET
10 PEOPLE TO TALK ABOUT AN I LLNESS THAT PEOPLE DON' T OFTEN
11 TALK ABOUT.
12 Q MY QUESTI ON WAS, DON' T YOU THI NK THE BLOG
13 I MPLI ES THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL?
14 A THE - - THE BLOG CERTAI NLY SAYS THAT HE USED
15 PROPOFOL, I T WAS GOI NG ON I N THE HOUSE, AND THAT I T
16 UNDERSCORES THAT THESE TYPES OF THI NGS HAPPEN WI TH
17 ADDI CTI ON. I DON' T - -
18 Q I S.
19 YOUR ANSWER NO, YOU I DON' T THI NK I T
20 I MPLI ES THAT? THAT WAS MY QUESTI ON, DO YOU THI NK I T
21 DOES OR DOESN' T.
22 A I DON' T THI NK I T DI RECTLY I MPLI ES THAT, NO.
23 Q DOES I T I NDI RECTLY I MPLY I T?
24 A I THI NK WHAT I T DOES I S HELP PEOPLE
25 UNDERSTAND THAT THI S I S A PROBLEM THAT CAN OCCUR I N ALL
26 TYPES OF PEOPLE, WHETHER HE WAS AN ADDI CT OR NOT.
27 Q OKAY. AND YOU WROTE THAT THREE WEEKS AFTER
28 HE DI ED?
866 299-5127
15878
1 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; MI SSTATES THE EVI DENCE.
2 MR. BOYLE: THAT' S WHAT HE SAI D.
4 THE WI TNESS: I ACTUALLY SAI D WI THI N SEVERAL
5 WEEKS AFTER HE DI ED. I WASN' T SURE OF THE EXACT
6 TI ME.
7 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
8 Q WHAT DO YOU CONSI DER " SEVERAL" TO BE?
9 A A WI NDOWOF TI ME. I - - I F YOU WANT ME GO
10 ON MY WEBSI TE, I CAN GO I N THE BACK END AND FI ND OUT
11 THE EXACT TI ME I F I T WOULD BE HELPFUL FOR YOU.
12 Q OKAY. OKAY. SI R, LET' S TALK ABOUT THE
13 STUDY THAT - - THE STUDY THAT WAS FUNDED BY A. E. G. LI VE.
14 BEFORE YOU TAKE THAT DOWN, ON YOUR BLOG
15 THAT YOU PUT ON YOUR WEBSI TE ABOUT MI CHAEL J ACKSON,
16 HAVE YOU - - SI NCE YOU PUT I T UP, HAVE YOU PUT A
17 DI SCLAI MER ANYWHERE ON THERE TO LET THE READER KNOW
18 THAT YOU' RE A HI RED EXPERT FOR A. E. G. LI VE I N THE CASE
19 OF MI CHAEL J ACKSON' S DEATH?
20 A I HAVE NOT.
21 Q DON' T YOU THI NK THE READER SHOULD BE AWARE
22 OF THAT; THAT YOUR BLOG WRI TI NG MI GHT BE I NFLUENCED BY
23 THE FACT THAT YOU' RE GETTI NG PAI D TO TESTI FY FOR THE
24 DEFENDANT I N THE MI CHAEL J ACKSON WRONGFUL DEATH TRI AL?
25 A I THI NK THAT MY BLOG WAS THERE TO HELP
26 EDUCATE PEOPLE AND HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND ABOUT A
27 DI SEASE WHI CH I S SECRETI VE AND CAN OCCUR TO ALL TYPES
28 OF PEOPLE, I NCLUDI NG THE PRI VI LEGED. AND I T DOESN' T
866 299-5127
15879
1 SEEM RELEVANT, THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW- - THI S I S TRUE
2 NO MATTER WHAT I - - YOU KNOW, NO MATTER WHAT I
3 SUBSEQUENTLY DO.
4 THESE I SSUES ARE HUGE, AND THEY NEED TO BE
5 ADDRESSED.
6 Q YOU KNOWHOWSOMETI MES I N A NEWSPAPER WHEN
7 THERE' S AN ARTI CLE ABOUT A CERTAI N COMPANY, THEY' LL SAY
8 " DI SCLAI MER, THI S COMPANY OWNS THI S NEWSPAPER" ? HAVE
9 YOU EVER SEEN THAT?
10 A I HAVE.
11 Q AND THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY WANT THE
12 READER TO KNOW, YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT THE ARTI CLE I S
13 ACTUALLY BI ASED, THEY WANT THE READER TO KNOWALL THE
14 I NFORMATI ON THAT THERE COULD BE SOME BI AS, CORRECT?
17 THE WI TNESS: I ' M NOT A NEWSPAPER; AND, YOU KNOW,
18 PEOPLE READ BLOGS ALL THE TI ME THAT HAVE OPI NI ONS I N
19 THEM; AND I THI NK I N OUR CULTURE MOST PEOPLE KNOW
20 THEY' RE THE OPI NI ONS OF ONE PERSON, AND THERE' S - - YOU
21 KNOW, I THI NK THAT' S PART OF WHAT PEOPLE DO WHEN THEY
22 READ BLOGS.
23 MR. BOYLE: SI R, I ' M BACK TO THAT I SSUE ABOUT
24 TRYI NG TO ANSWER MY QUESTI ONS. OKAY?
25 THE WI TNESS: I ' M SORRY. I WAS TRYI NG TO EXPLAI N
26 MYSELF AGAI N.
27 MR. BOYLE: SO THE QUESTI ON WAS ABOUT NEWSPAPERS.
28 Q THEY PUT I N THERE, " NOTE, THI S NEWSPAPER I S
866 299-5127
15880
1 OWNED BY THE COMPANY THAT THE ARTI CLE I S ABOUT" BECAUSE
2 THEY WANT PEOPLE TO HAVE FULL I NFORMATI ON ABOUT
3 POTENTI AL BI ASES OF THE ARTI CLE, CORRECT?
4 MR. PUTNAM: SAME OBJ ECTI ON.
6 THE WI TNESS: SURE, THAT - -
7 MR. BOYLE: I F YOU DON' T KNOW, TELL ME YOU DON' T
8 KNOW.
9 THE WI TNESS: I HAVE NOT SEEN THAT ON ONLI NE
10 NEWSPAPERS, I HAVE SEEN I T I N PRI NTED NEWSPAPERS.
11 Q BY MR. BOYLE: BUT ARE YOU GOI NG TO ANSWER
12 MY QUESTI ON? WHY DO THEY DO I T?
13 A THEY - - THEY DO THAT BECAUSE THEY ARE KNOWN
14 TO BE - - SUPPOSED TO BE J OURNALI STI CALLY PURE SOURCES
15 THAT - - THAT PEOPLE HOLD TO HI GHER STANDARDS THAN
16 BLOGGERS.
17 Q OKAY. AND SO YOU BLOG AND YOU PUT YOUR
18 ARTI CLES OUT TO THE WORLD, RI GHT?
19 A YEAH.
20 PROBABLY ALL OF 600 PEOPLE HAVE READ I T,
21 TOO.
22 MR. BOYLE: NOWA LOT MORE ARE GOI NG TO, SI R.
23 WE' LL TALK ABOUT THAT LATER.
24 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON, MOVE TO STRI KE, YOUR
25 HONOR.
27 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
28 Q SI R, AND YOU ALSO WRI TE A SCHOLARLY - - AT
866 299-5127
15881
1 LEAST ONE SCHOLARLY ARTI CLE, CORRECT?
3 Q AND HOWMANY HAVE YOU WRI TTEN, ONE
4 SCHOLARLY ARTI CLE?
5 A NO.
6 I HAVE FI VE ARTI CLES, ACTUALLY.
7 Q HOWMANY OF THEM WERE FUNDED BY A. E. G.
8 LI VE?
9 A ONE.
10 Q WERE ANY OF YOUR OTHER ARTI CLES FUNDED BY
11 ANY OTHER CONCERT PROMOTERS?
12 A NO.
13 Q LI VENATI ON DI DN' T FUND ONE OF YOUR
14 ARTI CLES?
15 A WHO?
16 Q LI VENATI ON?
17 A I DON' T KNOWWHO THAT I S.
18 Q SI R, WHEN YOU READ THE MEDI CAL LI TERATURE,
19 DO YOU SEE A LOT OF ARTI CLES THAT WERE FUNDED BY
20 CONCERT PROMOTERS?
23 THE WI TNESS: I SEE LOTS OF ARTI CLES THAT ARE
24 FUNDED BY LOTS OF SOURCES THESE DAYS BECAUSE OF
25 DECREASED GRANTS FROM N. I . H. AND N. I . M. H. , AND I T I S
26 SOMEWHAT UNUSUAL TO HAVE ONE FUNDED BY A CONCERT
27 PROMOTER.
28 Q BY MR. BOYLE: SI R, MY QUESTI ON WAS HAVE
866 299-5127
15882
1 YOU EVER SEEN AN ARTI CLE OR A STUDY AND READ WHO FUNDED
2 I T, AND I T WAS A CONCERT PROMOTER? HAVE YOU EVER SEEN
3 THAT?
4 A I HAVE NOT.
5 Q OKAY. BECAUSE THAT' S REALLY WEI RD, I SN' T
6 I T?
7 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; ARGUMENTATI VE, YOUR
8 HONOR.
10 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. I ' LL SAY I T I N A DI FFERENT
11 VOI CE.
12 Q THAT' S KI ND OF WEI RD, I SN' T I T?
13 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON.
15 Q BY MR. BOYLE: SI R, WASN' T I T ODD ENOUGH
16 THAT WHEN YOU SUBMI TTED THE ARTI CLE THAT THE EDI TORS OF
17 A. S. A. M. CALLED YOU AND SAI D, " WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE?"
18 A I F THEY - - YEAH. I T WAS - - THEY ASKED ME
19 WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE, AND THEY HAD NEVER HEARD OF THEM,
20 AND I HAD TO SAY I T' S A PROMOTI ONS COMPANY, CONCERT
21 COMPANY.
22 Q AND THEY WERE CONCERNED ABOUT I T - -
23 RI GHT? - - BECAUSE THEY DI DN' T KNOWWHO I T I S THAT' S
24 FUNDI NG A STUDY THAT' S GOI NG TO APPEAR I N THEI R
25 SCHOLARLY J OURNAL, RI GHT?
26 MR. PUTNAM: YOUR HONOR, CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON.
27 HE' S ASKI NG WHAT THE SPEAKER KNOWS.
866 299-5127
15883
1 Q BY MR. BOYLE: YOU' RE ON THE BOARD OF
2 A. S. A. M. , RI GHT?
3 A YES.
4 Q AND YOU TALKED TO THE A. S. A. M. PEOPLE ABOUT
5 THI S ARTI CLE, RI GHT?
6 A NO. ACTUALLY, THAT' S NOT HOWI T WORKS.
7 WHEN YOU DO AN ARTI CLE I N A PEER- REVI EWED J OURNAL, YOU
8 NEVER TALK TO THE REVI EWERS BECAUSE I T HAS TO BE
9 BLI NDED BY I NDEPENDENT REVI EWERS, SO I DON' T KNOWWHO
10 REVI EWED THAT ARTI CLE.
11 Q I THOUGHT EARLI ER WHEN YOU WERE TALKI NG
12 ABOUT THE ARTI CLE WI TH DEFENSE COUNSEL, YOU SAI D THEY
13 CALLED YOU AND YOU TALKED TO THEM AND THEY ASKED YOU
14 WHO A. E. G. LI VE WAS. I THOUGHT THAT' S WHAT YOU
15 TESTI FI ED TO.
16 A THEY CONTACTED ME. " CALL" I S THE I NCORRECT
17 WORD. WHEN YOU COMMUNI CATE ABOUT - - I N A CONFI DENTI AL
18 J OURNAL SI TUATI ON, WHAT HAPPENS I S YOU SEND I N THE
19 ARTI CLE BLI NDLY. THEY SEND I T OUT TO BLI ND REVI EWERS.
20 YOU GET - - I T SAYS " REVI EWER NUMBER 6 ASKS THE QUESTI ON
21 WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE, " QUESTI ON MARK. THE RESPONSE I
22 GAVE BACK WAS A. E. G. LI VE I S AN ENTERTAI NMENT COMPANY.
23 THE I SSUE AT HAND - -
24 Q SI R - - SO THEY DI DN' T CALL YOU - - I J UST
25 ASKED - - THEY CONTACTED YOU I N WHAT WAY? DI D THEY
26 E- MAI L YOU?
27 A I T' S DONE THROUGH A WEB PORTAL WHERE THE
28 J OURNALS ARE SUBMI TTED AND THEN RESPONSES ARE REGULARLY
866 299-5127
15884
1 QUERI ED BACK THROUGH THE J OURNAL OF ADDI CTI ON MEDI CI NE.
2 Q I COULD HAVE SWORN YOU SAI D EARLI ER THAT
3 THEY CALLED YOU AND THEY SAI D, " WHO I S A. E. G. LI VE?" I
4 COULD HAVE SWORN YOU TESTI FI ED TO THAT.
5 A CALL, SENT ME - - YOU KNOW, I T WAS A SLI P OF
6 THE TONGUE. I MEAN, YOU KNOW, THEY COMMUNI CATED WI TH
7 ME. DOES THAT HELP YOU WI TH THAT?
8 Q DI D YOU TELL THEM - - EI THER THROUGH TALK OR
9 WHATEVER TONGUE SLI PPAGE, DI D YOU TELL THEM THAT YOU
10 WERE WORKI NG FOR A. E. G. LI VE I N A MAJ OR LI TI GATI ON OVER
11 THE DEATH OF MI CHAEL J ACKSON THAT I NVOLVED THE I SSUE OF
12 PROPOFOL?
13 A I - -
14 Q DI D YOU TELL THEM THAT?
15 A I I NDI CATED THAT I WAS DOI NG RESEARCH FOR
16 THI S COMPANY.
17 Q RI GHT.
18 YOU TOLD THEM YOU WERE DOI NG RESEARCH FOR
19 THE COMPANY, RI GHT?
20 A AND THAT SETTLED THEI R CONCERNS.
21 Q RI GHT.
22 BUT WHAT YOU WI THHELD FROM THEM WAS THAT
23 YOU WERE WORKI NG I N A CONSULTI NG CAPACI TY WI TH REGARD
24 TO A LI TI GATI ON THAT CONCERNS PROPOFOL AND THAT THE
25 COMPANY HAD BI LLI ONS OF DOLLARS TO LOSE.
26 YOU DI DN' T TELL THEM THAT, DI D YOU?
27 A I T WAS NOT RELEVANT TO A SCI ENTI FI C ARTI CLE
28 WHERE I WENT BACK TO LOOK AT ADDI CTS RETROSPECTI VELY.
866 299-5127
15885
1 Q WHAT RELEVANCE DOES A CONCERT PROMOTER HAVE
2 TO DO WI TH FUNDI NG OF A PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON STUDY?
3 A THE I SSUE THAT THEY LOOK FOR I N CONFLI CT I S
4 DO MY RESULTS AFFECT WHAT DRUGS ARE USED, A TREATMENT
5 PROTOCOL. THE PURPOSES OF CONFLI CT I N MEDI CAL
6 LI TERATURE I S TO PREVENT MY RESEARCH TO BE BI ASED
7 AROUND FUTURE MEDI CAL PRACTI CE. I T HAS NOTHI NG TO DO
8 WI TH THE LEGAL REALM.
9 Q SI R, ARE YOU FAMI LI AR WI TH SCANDALS THAT
10 CAME OUT I N THE 50' S AND 60' S WHERE TOBACCO COMPANI ES
11 WERE FUNDI NG STUDI ES THAT WERE SAYI NG THAT CI GARETTES
12 WERE SAFE?
13 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; RELEVANCE.
15 THE WI TNESS: YES.
16 MR. BOYLE: ALL RI GHT.
17 Q AND THAT' S NOT OKAY, I S I T?
18 A THAT' S BECAUSE THE TOBACCO COMPANI ES WERE
19 DI RECTLY FUNDI NG THE RESEARCH THAT - - TO SAY THAT
20 TOBACCO WAS NOT TOXI C.
21 Q RI GHT.
22 A I N FACT, THE FI NDI NGS FROM MY RESEARCH
23 SAI D - - LED ME TO UNDERSTAND THAT MI CHAEL J ACKSON WAS
24 NOT PROPOFOL DEPENDENT.
25 Q RI GHT.
26 BUT I T LED YOU TO - - I T LED YOU TO TESTI FY
27 THAT HI S PROGNOSI S WAS GRAVE, RI GHT?
28 A THOSE FACTORS HAD NOTHI NG TO DO WI TH THE
866 299-5127
15886
1 OUTCOME OF THE PAPER WI TH THE EXCEPTI ON OF THE
2 " ACCI DENTS" COLUMN.
3 Q SI R, AFTER THE DEFENSE COUNSEL ASKED YOU
4 YOUR CREDENTI ALS THI S MORNI NG, THE FI RST PI ECE OF
5 SUBSTANTI VE EVI DENCE YOU GAVE WAS THAT 1. 6 PERCENT OF
6 PHYSI CI ANS WHO PRESENT WI TH ADDI CTI ON PROBLEMS ARE
7 ADDI CTED TO PROPOFOL, RI GHT?
8 A YES.
9 Q THAT WAS THE FI RST PI ECE OF SUBSTANTI VE
10 EVI DENCE YOU TESTI FI ED TO THI S J URY I N THI S CASE,
11 RI GHT?
12 A RI GHT.
13 Q AND THAT' S FROM YOUR STUDY, I SN' T I T?
14 A I T I S.
15 Q RI GHT. SO THE VERY FI RST THI NG YOU
16 TESTI FI ED TO CAME FROM A STUDY THAT WAS FUNDED BY THE
17 DEFENDANT, WASN' T I T?
18 A I T WAS ABOUT HEALTHCARE PROFESSI ONALS THAT
19 ARE ADDI CTED.
20 Q RI GHT.
21 NO, THE - - THE I NFORMATI ON CAME FROM THE
22 STUDY, CORRECT?
23 A THE STUDY TALKED ABOUT HEALTHCARE
24 PROFESSI ONALS THAT WERE ADDI CTED.
25 Q AND I T WAS THE FI RST SUBSTANTI VE THI NG YOU
26 TESTI FI ED TO TODAY AFTER YOU FI NI SHED GI VI NG YOUR
27 CREDENTI ALS, RI GHT?
28 A YES, BECAUSE SHE ASKED ME ABOUT THE STUDY.
866 299-5127
15887
1 Q OKAY. I ' D LI KE TO SHOWTHE STUDY, PLEASE,
2 WHI CH I BELI EVE I S EXHI BI T 13012. THI S I S ALREADY I N
3 EVI DENCE, AND THI S WAS EXHI BI T 5 TO DR. EARLEY' S
4 DEPOSI TI ON.
5 DR. EARLEY, THI S I S THE STUDY THAT WE WERE
6 TAKI NG ABOUT, RI GHT?
7 A I T I S.
8 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. WOULD YOU SHOWTHE TI TLE,
9 J OSH.
10 YOUR HONOR, DO YOU NEED ONE? I ' M ONLY
11 GOI NG TO SHOWONE PAGE FOR NOW.
12 THE COURT: NO, THAT' S OKAY.
13 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
14 Q AND PAUL H. EARLEY, THAT' S YOU, CORRECT?
15 A CORRECT.
16 Q AND THEN TORI N FI NVER WAS YOUR ASSI STANT I N
17 THI S STUDY?
18 A YEAH, HE WAS MY COLLABORATOR.
19 Q DI D YOU TELL DR. TORI N FI NVER THAT YOU WERE
20 WORKI NG ON A LI TI GATI ON WI TH A. E. G. WHI LE YOU WERE
21 DOI NG THI S STUDY?
22 A I WAS - - I TOLD HI M THAT I WAS DOI NG
23 RESEARCH. BECAUSE HE SAI D, " WHY ARE WE GETTI NG FUNDI NG
24 FROM A. E. G. LI VE. "
25 AND I SAI D, " I ' M DOI NG RESEARCH FOR THEM,
26 AND THEY HAVE SOME SORT OF A CASE. " AND HE SAI D OKAY.
27 Q WAI T, WAI T. SO YOU TOLD HI M THEY HAVE SOME
28 SORT OF A CASE?
866 299-5127
15888
1 A THAT' S WHAT THE RESEARCH WAS FOR.
2 Q SI R, DI D YOU WI THHOLD FROM DR. FI NVER ALSO
3 THAT YOU WERE I NVOLVED I N THE LI TI GATI ON WI TH A. E. G.
4 LI VE?
5 A I WAS NOT I NVOLVED EXCEPT FOR PROVI DI NG
6 RESEARCH FOR THEM AT THE TI ME.
7 Q YOU WEREN' T - - YOU WERE HI RED BY
8 O' MELVENY & MYERS, THE DEFENSE FI RM FOR A. E. G. LI VE, I N
9 FEBRUARY OF 2011, CORRECT?
11 Q RI GHT.
12 THI S LAWSUI T WAS FI LED I N SEPTEMBER OF
13 2011, CORRECT?
14 MS. CAHAN: OBJ ECTI ON; MI SSTATES THE RECORD.
15 MR. BOYLE: SEPTEMBER OF 2010. I ' M SORRY. THANK
16 YOU, MS. CAHAN.
17 Q I S THAT CORRECT?
19 Q RI GHT.
20 SO YOU WERE WORKI NG FOR A. E. G. LI VE AT THE
21 TI ME YOU DI D THI S STUDY WI TH REGARDS TO THI S LI TI GATI ON
22 THAT WE' RE ALL HERE FOR RI GHT NOW, CORRECT?
23 A THEY ASKED ME TO PROVI DE RESEARCH, AND I
24 DI DN' T - - I T WAS O' MELVENY & MYERS THAT ASKED ME TO
25 PROVI DE RESEARCH TO HELP THEM UNDERSTAND PROPOFOL
26 ADDI CTI ON, BECAUSE VERY LI TTLE I S KNOWN ABOUT I T.
27 Q LET ME TRY TO ASK YOU AN EASY ONE HERE,
28 SI R.
866 299-5127
15889
1 ARE YOU CURRENTLY TESTI FYI NG I N THE
2 WRONGFUL DEATH CASE FOR THE DEATH OF MI CHAEL J ACKSON?
3 A I AM.
4 Q OKAY. AND WERE YOU CALLED TO THE WI TNESS
5 STAND BY O' MELVENY & MYERS, WHO I S REPRESENTI NG A. E. G.
6 LI VE?
7 A I WAS.
8 Q OKAY. AND YOU WERE FI RST RETAI NED BY THEM
9 I N FEBRUARY OF 2011, CORRECT?
10 A YES, AS A RESEARCHER, THAT' S CORRECT.
11 Q RI GHT.
12 AND YOU SPOKE WI TH MR. PUTNAM NUMEROUS
13 TI MES, CORRECT?
14 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; VAGUE AS TO " NUMEROUS. "
16 THE WI TNESS: TWI CE, I THI NK, YES.
17 MR. BOYLE: I THOUGHT YOU TOLD ME SI X TI MES I N
18 THE DEPOSI TI ON.
19 THE WI TNESS: WELL, MAYBE - - MAYBE I T WAS.
20 MR. BOYLE: OKAY.
21 Q DI D YOU E- MAI L WI TH HI M?
22 A WE E- MAI LED, YES.
23 Q OKAY. AND YOU THI NK YOU HAD TWO PHONE
24 CALLS?
25 A THAT SOUNDS ABOUT RI GHT.
26 Q DI D THE NAME MI CHAEL J ACKSON EVER COME UP?
27 A I T DI D.
28 Q OKAY. SO THEN WHEN - - SO YOU' RE TALKI NG TO
866 299-5127
15890
1 HI M, YOU CLEARLY KNEWMI CHAEL J ACKSON DI ED, RI GHT? WE
2 KNOWTHAT FROM YOUR BLOG?
3 A RI GHT.
4 Q OKAY. YOU' RE BEI NG CALLED BY THI S LAWFI RM
5 I N LOS ANGELES, RI GHT?
6 A RI GHT.
7 Q YOU KNEWTHERE WAS A LAWSUI T GOI NG ON,
8 RI GHT?
9 A RI GHT.
10 Q OKAY. SO NOWBACK TO MY ORI GI NAL QUESTI ON.
11 DI D YOU TELL DR. FI NVER, " HEY, COME WORK ON
12 THI S STUDY WI TH ME. OH, BY THE WAY, I ' M WORKI NG AS AN
13 EXPERT ON A WRONGFUL DEATH LI TI GATI ON FOR A. E. G. LI VE" ?
14 DI D YOU TELL HI M THAT?
15 A NO.
16 I TOLD HI M THAT I WAS WORKI NG AS A
17 RESEARCHER TO UNDERSTAND PROPOFOL DEPENDENCE, AND THAT
18 O' MELVENY & MYERS SAI D I F - - " LI TTLE I S KNOWN ABOUT
19 THI S ADDI CTI ON DI SORDER, I T WOULD HELP US I N THE CASE, "
20 AND SO THEY' RE FUNDI NG THI S STUDY. AND HE SAI D OKAY.
21 Q SO - - OKAY. SO THEY DI D TELL YOU I T WOULD
22 HELP THEM I N THE CASE, RI GHT?
23 A I T WOULD HELP THEM UNDERSTAND THE CASE.
24 THEY - - SO LI TTLE I S KNOWN ABOUT PROPOFOL DEPENDENCE
25 THAT THERE WAS NOTHI NG I N THE LI TERATURE, AND MY - - MY
26 CONVERSATI ONS WI TH - - AND E- MAI LS WI TH MR. PUTNAM WERE
27 TERSE AND TO THE POI NT AND SAI D, " WE DON' T UNDERSTAND
28 MUCH ABOUT PROPOFOL ADDI CTI ON. "
866 299-5127
15891
1 MY RESPONSE I S, " GEE, NO ONE ELSE DOES,
2 EI THER. " THAT' S HOWTHI S - -
3 Q SO I S I T YOUR TESTI MONY THAT A. E. G. LI VE
4 WAS J UST FUNDI NG THI S STUDY OUT OF THE GOODNESS OF I TS
5 HEART?
6 A THEY WERE TRYI NG TO UNDERSTAND PROPOFOL
7 DEPENDENCE, AND I HAD A CURI OSI TY ABOUT I T MYSELF, AND
8 THAT' S HOWI T CAME ABOUT.
9 Q SI R, THEY WERE TRYI NG TO CREATE MATERI AL
10 THAT THEY COULD USE I N THI S LI TI GATI ON, WEREN' T THEY?
11 MR. PUTNAM: OBJ ECTI ON; CALLS FOR SPECULATI ON,
12 YOUR HONOR.
13 Q BY MR. BOYLE: RI GHT? J UST LI KE THE
14 TOBACCO COMPANI ES, RI GHT?
15 THE COURT: SUSTAI NED. ARGUMENTATI VE.
16 MR. PUTNAM: MOVE TO STRI KE, YOUR HONOR.
18 MR. BOYLE: MR. DOWELL, WI LL YOU SHOWTHE LOWER
19 LEFT CORNER OF THE ARTI CLE.
20 THE COURT: FI VE MORE MI NUTES BEFORE WE' RE GOI NG
21 TO ADJ OURN, J UST SO YOU' RE AWARE.
22 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. THANK YOU VERY MUCH, YOUR
23 HONOR.
24 Q AND THE - - THE THI RD LI NE DOWN, I T SAYS
25 " RECEI VED FOR PUBLI CATI ON OCTOBER 25TH, 2012, " CORRECT?
26 A CORRECT.
27 Q AND AT THAT TI ME, YOU WERE ALREADY WORKI NG
28 FOR A. E. G. LI VE I N YOUR CONSULTI NG CAPACI TY AS AN
866 299-5127
15892
1 EXPERT ON THI S LI TI GATI ON, RI GHT?
2 A AT THAT TI ME, MY - - THAT' S ACTUALLY
3 I NCORRECT. AT THAT TI ME MY RESEARCH HAD CONCLUDED, I
4 HAD PROVI DED THEM WI TH THE I NFORMATI ON ABOUT THE
5 HI STORY, THE EFFECTS OF PROPOFOL, HOWI T MAKES PEOPLE
6 I LL, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, ET CETERA, AND I - - SO THAT
7 PART HAD ENDED AND WE MOVED ON TO THE RESEARCH.
8 Q SI R, YOU GATHERED I NFORMATI ON FOR THI S
9 ARTI CLE AT THE SAME PERI OD OF TI ME - - YOU' VE ALREADY
10 TOLD US - - THE SAME PERI OD OF TI ME YOU WERE ALSO
11 WORKI NG AS A CONSULTANT FOR A. E. G. LI VE, CORRECT?
12 YOU' RE NOT GOI NG TO REALLY TRY TO TELL US
13 THERE WAS SOME DELI NEATI NG LI NE, ARE YOU?
14 A I ' M J UST TRYI NG TO BE HELPFUL AND HOPI NG
15 YOU UNDERSTAND I T.
16 MR. PUTNAM: YOUR HONOR, ARGUMENTATI VE. MOTI ON
17 TO STRI KE.
18 THE COURT: MOTI ON DENI ED.
19 MR. BOYLE: YOU TOLD US I N YOUR DEPOSI TI ON THAT
20 SHORTLY BEFORE FEBRUARY 2013, THE A. E. G. LI VE LAWYERS
21 CALLED YOU AND SAI D, " OKAY. WE' RE CHANGI NG YOU FROM A
22 CONSULTI NG EXPERT TO A TESTI FYI NG EXPERT. "
23 Q DO YOU REMEMBER TELLI NG ME THAT I N YOUR
24 DEPOSI TI ON?
25 A I N 2013, YES, THAT I S CORRECT.
26 Q THAT' S WHAT I ' M SAYI NG.
27 SO AS OF 2012 - - YOU WERE HI RED I N
28 FEBRUARY 2011 - - RI GHT? - - BY A. E. G. LI VE THROUGH
866 299-5127
15893
1 O' MELVENY?
2 A CORRECT.
3 Q OKAY. GREAT. NOWLET' S GO TO THE NEXT
4 LI NE. LET' S HI GHLI GHT THAT.
5 " THE AUTHORS DECLARE NO CONFLI CTS OF
6 I NTEREST. "
7 I S THAT WHAT I T SAYS?
8 A THAT I S WHAT I T SAYS.
9 Q OKAY. NOW, SI R, DON' T YOU THI NK I T WOULD
10 BE HELPFUL TO YOUR DOCTOR ASSOCI ATES WHO READ YOUR
11 ARTI CLE TO KNOWTHAT AT THE TI ME YOU WORKED ON THI S
12 ARTI CLE AND PUBLI SHED THI S ARTI CLE, YOU WERE WORKI NG
13 FOR A. E. G. LI VE, THE FUNDER OF THE ARTI CLE, I N A
14 LI TI GATI ON CAPACI TY?
15 DON' T YOU THI NK THAT' S SOMETHI NG THEY
16 SHOULD KNOW?
17 A I T' S I RRELEVANT TO THE FI NDI NGS OF
18 HEALTHCARE PROFESSI ONALS. I T DOESN' T APPLY TO
19 MR. J ACKSON' S CASE. I T ONLY APPLI ES TO HEALTHCARE
20 PROFESSI ONALS BECAUSE THAT' S WHO WE TREATED.
21 Q YOU DI DN' T ANSWER MY QUESTI ON.
22 DON' T YOU THI NK YOUR COLLEAGUES SHOULD KNOW
23 ABOUT THAT?
24 A THE ANSWER I S NO.
25 Q YOU DON' T THI NK THEY SHOULD KNOWABOUT
26 THAT?
27 A THE ANSWER I S I T WOULDN' T AFFECT THEI R
28 UNDERSTANDI NG OF THE PAPER WHATSOEVER.
866 299-5127
15894
1 Q SO YOU' RE PERFECTLY OKAY I F I CALL UP THE
2 A. S. A. M. TONI GHT AND LET THEM KNOW?
3 A I WOULDN' T CARE.
4 MR. BOYLE: OKAY. I S THAT I T FOR TODAY, YOUR
5 HONOR?
6 THE COURT: 9: 45 FOR YOU.
7 ATTORNEYS, 9: 30 FOR YOU.
8
11 OF THE J URY: )
12
13 THE COURT: I ' M ASKI NG YOU TO COME A LI TTLE BI T
14 EARLY I N CASE WE HAVE SOMETHI NG THAT COMES UP LI KE
15 TODAY.
16 MS. BI NA: BY THE WAY, YOUR HONOR, MS. CHANG AND
17 I HAD TALKED ON THURSDAY ABOUT ARGUI NG THE FAYE TEXT
18 I SSUE TODAY. MS. CHANG I S ACTUALLY I LL. MAYBE
19 TOMORROWOR THURSDAY, I F THERE' S TI ME WI TH THE NONSUI T,
20 WE COULD ARGUE I T THEN. BUT I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW
21 WHY THAT WAS NOT BEI NG DEALT WI TH.
22 MR. PANI SH: THANK YOU, MS. STEBBI NS BI NA.
24
25 ( PROCEEDI NGS ADJ OURNED TO WEDNESDAY,
26 AUGUST 4, 2013, AT 9: 30 A. M. )
27
28

Katherine Jackson V AEG Live. Transcripts of DR Early September 3rd 2013

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Katherine Jackson V AEG Live. Transcripts of DR Early September 3rd 2013

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