-,

MUSIC/POETRY

diM CARROLL
Tuningin the Stationsof the Cross
ByMARKDERY

V ou know Jim Carroll. Chances are he was the gawky

altarboytop row, third from the left in your parochial
school class picture, the one who dropped the dead fly
into Father O'Rourke's communion chalice. Or maybe he was the
smooth-talking Eddie Haskell-type who talked your kid sister in-
to his Chevyand out of her virginity. Probably he was all and none
of the above. Most people know him as the New Yawk wun-
derkind who dunked his first literary basket with LIVINGATTHE
MOVIES, a collection of poems, at age 22. Carroll later knocked
off the blockbuster BASKETBALL DIARIES,now in its umpteenth
printing, a sortofblack leather CATCHERINTH ERYEthat trails a
teenaged Jim Carroll as he cores the BigApple with a vengeance.
After a hiatus in Northern California arm wrestling his smack habit
into submission, Jim joined Patti Smith onstage in San Diego in
'78 and soon after clinched a record deal with Atlantic. The hit
single "People Who Died" (title from one of Poetic Godfather
Ted Berrigan's poems) propelled CATHOLICBOY,jim's first lP,
into the upper regions of the pop charts, and Carroll released a
second disk, DRY DREAMS.The latter fared not so well, and
beleaguered by buddy John Belushi's death, record company
politics and a growing disaffection for the newest new wave, Jim
Carroll began to seem more and more an endangered species of
the Patti Smith ilk. Now, with a new volume of vinylverse, IWRITE
YOURNAME,Carroll is back in the ring and ready to take all con-
tenders to the mat. In an age where your neighborhood pop star
sports a hassidic bowler and a full head of dreads, Jim Carroll
declares, "I'm here to give you my heart and you want a fashion
i show." Who cares where the beef is, anyway? Wouldn't you
rather have heart?

EUCENIA H. POLOS
"Whenthingsare bad,
peoplelookto artiststo
clarifythe chaos.I think
theyshouldnowtoo,
they'restupidto let up."
JO/HICH PERfORMANCUlssue 2711984
MD: What did you think of Ron Mann's movie, POETRYIN MO-
TION, which you had a spot in?
JC: That whole [Charles] Bukowski thing was bullshit. I think his
work's pretty funny; Iwish he'd read acouple poems. Allthey did
was sit around and get the guy drunk and he just rambled on
about how much bullshit is in poetry. People were cursed to
make fools of themselves. He should've read a poem himself and
put up or shut up. That shit's easy-it's like shooting fish in a
barrel. I love the poetry scene. There's a sense of community at
poetry readings that's still maintained, whereas it's completely
lost with rock n' roll.
Church for people who don't go to church any more. . . .
It's very ecclesiastical. There's some sense of liturgical coloring to
it. That's why it's only right to have readings in a church.
In a recent ROCKBILLinterview you said you were reading the
Gnostic Gospels. Have you finished them, or are you still burrow-
ing deep?
Well, I haven't finished them-I mean, who's finished the Bible,
in that sense? First of all, there's so many words missing that
they're practically indecipherable, and there's all these symbols
in the text and cross-references and stuff. It's a consuming thing
with me. It has been since Iwas livingin the country and started to
get back into Catholicism. With all these things, it's like one step

I
 1964/lssue 27/HIGH PERFORMANCE/31 EUGENIA H. POlOS

I
 Jim Carroll
leads to another. Fansgive me things. LikeI
say in an interview that I was reading the
Gnostic Gospels and then this girlgives me
this book about EdgarCayce's visions.They
just throw 'em up onstage, like hand gre-
nades that come back at you later. Most of
it's crank things, envelopes with syringes in
'em, but this book had this long letter in it
and the girlhad a pretty good take on what
I was thinking about at the time. It all gets
more and more baffling and I don't know
why it gives me such great pleasure to get
bogged down in this stuff and then have
some sudden little illumination abo~t it
You once made the statement that lithe
kids need a mythology." It seems that peo-
ple are starved for a mythos these days;
could that account for religion's attractive-
ness to you?
Of course. I've always said that from the
beginning. I said it on the Tom Snyder
show when my first album came out, that
punk rock is just like the Stations of the
Cross. What could be more punk than this
guy getting a crown of thorns, being
scourged, carrying a cross up a mountain
and being crucified?
What was Synder's reaction to your
theory?
He said, "Not me, of course, but some
people might think that's very blasphe-
mous." I got tons of mail about that-you
can't believe how many nutty people
watch that show, all these moral majority
people! Alot of'em wanted to convert me.
But I was converted already, and I didn't
mean what I said in any blasphemous
sense. It just seemed like a very simple
statement to make. I mean, my whole
mythology was Catholicism and Snyder
was asking why I called the album
CATHOLICBOY.
Did your parents have any adverse reaction
to being on the record cover once they
heard the music?
No! Are you kidding? They loved it!! I
mean, my parents hated the fact that Igrew
up and gotinto poetrybutatthis point they
don't care. At least I'm making more of a
living, and financial security's the bottom
line with them. They don't find the record-
ed particularly outrageous. What's to be
outraged about? There's no songs that are
really offensive on that record, I don't
think.
It depends on your sensibility. What did
Roman Polanski think of "it's too late. . ..
to fall in love with Sharon Tate?"
I don't know. I spoke with Jack Nicholson
about it once; he liked that album a lot,
that's alii know. The thing about that song
is that the second line was about Reverend
J2/HICH PERfORMANCE/Issue 27/1984
I
Moon being shot and we had to edit it out
because those people are litigation
happy-"it's too late to fall in love with
Sharon Tate/it's too soon but a bullet's
gonna dance in the brain of Reverend
Moon." I put in a more innocuous line-
"it's too soon to askme forthewords Iwant
carved on my tomb," because everyone
was setting up to die, to 0.0. any second,
and that was the overwhelming push Iwas
getting-"Why don't you just die right
now, it's be a much better record if you
did." It always that way, especially if your
work has some stench of relic about it. But
to get back to the point here, I don't know
why Roman Polanski would get upset
about that line. Iwas always very attracted
to Sharon Tate-she was incredibly sexy
to me.
.Audiences seem to plug into the song.
there's no doubt.. .
I remember some kid about 11 years old
quoted the whole thing to me on the
beach one time, outside of Boston. Hewas
in thralls of ecstasy. He knew this song and
he saw me on the beach and he could
never come to any shows because he was
too young but he'd always listened to tpis
song. I told him to come to the show that
night and stay. backstage. I love kids that
come to shows, little kids coming up to you
with braces, like some kid came up to me in
a parking lot outside a show in Santa Cruz,
he was about 14 or 15, and he said,
"Y'know, I love The BasketballDiaries but I
hope your next book of poetry isn't gonna
be as academic as Living At The Movies
was." I said, "What are you, a little critic?"
(laughs) But he made me think about that
more than anybody else. Some girl just
gave me the same thing-she thought my
work was too controlled. I said, "Listen, if
there's no control, there's no bang."
Don't you think that lack of control is a di-
sease that's afflicting a lot of modern writ-
ing? It seems that everybody's hopped on
the Burroughs bandwagon. He's spawned
a whole generation of writers who believe
that "everything is permitted."
It's true. Burroughs knows this. Funny thing
is, that's not even a Burroughs line! "Noth-
ing is true, everything is permitted" is from
Hassan ISabbah, the founderofthe Cult of
the Assassins. He used to have these guys
get high on hash, guys who were all
physicians and lawyers and astrologers,
followers of his. He'd do these Jim Jones
tricks, have one of his followers supposed-
ly beheaded (he'd really be buried in the
sand) and a week later Hassan would un-
cover a basket and show the guy's head
talking, "I can't rest, I can't even die, my
head lives on, it's because Idisobeyed Sab-
bah." He had all these stooges and tricks,
the way Jim Jones did, pulling chicken
bones outof people and saying he was cur-
ing them. Anyway, he was the guy who
said, "Nothing is true, everything is permit-
ted." Burroughs has that line in every book!
When I wrote that song NOTH ING IS
TRUEpeople said, "Where'd you get this
Burroughs line?" Burroughs has a good
take on it but it's not his. For me it was just
some repetitive riff. I don't believe that
shit, for God's sake-"nothing is true;
everything is permitted"-I'm too much of
a Catholic guy!
let's talkaboutthe new lP, IWRITEYOUR
NAME. Would you say that the counter~
point you mentioned earlier in reference to
poetry is present in your recorded efforts?
lyrically it seems to be there but the music
has always struck me as one endless ex-
panse of no-frills rock 'n' roll snipped to fit
the words. . .
Well,J'vealwaysliked rock 'n' roll although
I don't think I'll ever make a record like that
again. I really don't know what I wanna do
with music at this point. You're right, that
counterpoint is what I miss musically; I've
been working too much with just setting up
a background for the lyrics. Maybe I just
don't like rock 'n' roll enough. That's the
problem. The fact is that I don't like rock 'n'
roll at all, to tell you the truth. . .
But at the same time, you don't want to be
Frank Sinatra or Michael Jackson. ..
I couldn't be; I'm not that good of a singer.
Y'know, I don't think Jackson writes his
lyrics. I don't think he has enough ex-
perience in the world. I can see" Beat It"
more than " Billy Jean"-I don't think he
knows how babies are made, never mind
writing a song about "the child is not my .
son."
It seems to me that America, being in an
economic slump, is really ripe for in-
nocuous, sacrificial lamb-type pop stars.
Could that be why some of your recent
stuff hasn't really gone over? Because peo-
ple don't want to see the skin-popping side
of life right now, the ugly images?
People want bullshit; they don't want
songs that are interesting. It's completely
different than it was in 1980. I think if
CATHOLIC BOY came out right now it
wouldn't sell a lot of records like it did
then.
You'd have to wear a little more eye-
shadow.. .
You say that in passing but there was a
point where I was thinking about all that
psychologicalparaphernalia.Iwore a lot of
make-up and thought, "If this wasn't such a
pain in the assto do, I'd be smart to do it,
because this is what people want, they
want you to get up there and be something
larger'-than-life." I mean, it is entertain-
men!, after all. So maybe I'll get_ out my
fucking thigh-high boots, put on more eye-
liner and look pretty again on my next
rl'nml. lIul J)C'r~ulI.llly I ('.11I'1 W.lit (or this
~hil 10 IWI ov(~r, IIIl! w.ay musk is riy,hl now.
Your lIu,ory Ih.11 pl'oplc~ W.III! fluff ill (uuy,h
lill\(,~ 1II..k('s SCII~(!. WlwlI (!VI!ryOlH! W.IS
asking me why my firsl ..Ibum was so suc-
cessful, I said because poets have a vested
interest in bad times. Things are getting
better now. I don't think it's gonna last but
people see these things in a day-to-day,
ephem~ral sense, you know. When things
are bad, people look to artists to clarifythe
chaos. I think they should now, too-
they're stupid to let up.
The one big change that's occurred in pop
music is that it has traditionally been
rebellious whereas now it's becoming ob-
sequious, easily manipulated by conserva-
tive interests.
I think that video hassomething to do with
that, actually.That raunchy, cartoon-like,
cheap surrealism, like when Duran Duran
has that video of the kid who keeps follow-
ing the ball through the forest. Surrealism,
ifit's not done right,ifit doesn't havecon-
trol, then again,it's not going to be shock-
ing but just lethargic. Since music is
abstract, it should remain abstract. I mean,
I've said a thousand times the reason I
don't like video with music is because it
takes awaythe joy of just saying,"This is our
song," unadorned, y'know. There's this
group R.E.M.,I was listening to their new
record and there's this cut where the guy
keeps saying,"I'm sorry, I'm sorry... ," and
I was sitting in the Chateau Marmont, a
hotel in LA. (it's the "Hotel California" in
that song by the Eagles), Iwas sitting there
watching this cat eating a bird in front of
this retaining wall. You couldn't see a bet-
ter video than that, seeing a cat kill a bird EUCENIA H. POlOS

while a guy's screaming, "I'm sorry" There's a lot of woman in what I write, was a bartender and he'd lend guys money
through an echoplex. That's what music's believe me. I've always been very proud of and they'd always pay him off in fucking ap-
about, for God's sake!! the feminine side of my work. I write a lot of pliances, you know? Sowe had three TVsat
What do you think about the new breed of songs in character, in a feminine voice like one point and we didn't have three rooms,
poet-songwriter- Debora Iyall of Romeo "Lorraine," songs like that. practically. I had this little 10-inch; it had a
Void, for instance? To wrap up, you said in an interview some huge box the size of a 30-inch television
Ireadan interviewwithheroncewhere she months back that at the age of 6 you were with a fucking 10 inch screen. I used to
seemed over-anxious to impress on looking for a meeting with Christ and that watch that and have these little dialogues
everybody the fact that she doesn't care you once invited him to watch the World with the Great One (I don't mean Jackie
about poetry in formal sense. r'm big on Series with you. Are you still looking for Gleason),
studyingand gettingitright.I mean, I can't that meeting? If Christ was on the Yankees, what position
sayJ'vefound anyrules that I didn'twanna Sure. I'd love that. The World Series was an would he play?
break. but I wanna know what rule I'm interesting event that I thought Christ I'm sure he'd probably be a gutsy little
breaking. If Debora lyall's a noble savage might wanna watch; it was the most spec- catcher, a Jewish catcher with a lot of
then morepowerto herbutthe thing I read tacular thing I knew-it was the World chutzpah.
was just her going overboard to say some- Series, for God's sake. The Yankees were
Ihill~ which didll't r".tl1r h.1\'" 10 lit' :,.Iid, pl.lyil1~ 111<'11,/'/11 :,ur,'. a.II\' glj\:: Ji"~' R~.1Il
Slw ..Iso :,.Iid :,oll1l'lhillg .lbOUI not liking Dur.,n ,1Ild '\\"ntk' .)I)d Billy ,\ l.1Itin- I'm (At thi:: point the tape ran out and the
, "'1111' "IiIIt.,.--- :,ur,' I", IIl)ulcf"l' Il), ,'d to :,,',' RiII,- ,\I.utin m.1,'hin~' did,ed off .1U~om.l:ic.ll"_ p:Jr:c-
Well, from a woman's per'ipective, I'm play. But I was seriously praying that he tllating Jim's .:tnecdote with ,) sudden pop.
sure you can understand- would just be with me while I was watching Grinning, Carroll observed, "He did
But from a writers perspective, I can't. the game and we'd be talking. My father that.")
198~/I"ue 27/HICH PERFORMANCU33