Eclectic

Ipray, fewer lamebrains like you and the world will be a much better place. If you have anything substantive to say, say it. Otherwise do us all a favour - shut up and get back to praying. I'm assuming you are a Muslim but you could also be a commie or a bleeding-heart liberal. Aquamarine's comments are always welcome. It's gratifying to have my low opinion of him repeatedly confirmed.

Ipray

My my Eclectic…you are a genius Sikh…quite polished and educated I must say…I mean I can see how well you have been bought up and I really applaud your parents for that...but then hey sometimes a child can develop amazing personality on its own why always compliment and praise parents for that..I mean you are a clear proof…Aquamarine why are you harassing this genius here, I mean I am sure he has read all religious books and has immense and deep knowledge about all religions and not just Islam. He seems to have read and understood all religions to the core man or else why would he make the claims that he is making? You rock Eclectic and a few more geniuses like you and the world will be a very different place!

Eclectic

Muslim notion of proof: "The Arabic of the Quran is the most perfect, the best ever. No one has ever equalled it. So it MUST be of divine origin." Like Creationists and Intelligent Design people, Muslims just want to keep yakking to be in the public eye. No matter how much proof they are given about the shittiness of Islam, they keep claiming no proofs have been given.

aquamarine2772500

very amusing how i provide proof and you lie. why do i say you lie? because i have proof and you don't. prove it to me and let's talk about it then. haha. how amazing it is that people talk without knowing.

aquamarine2772500

hahaha.

zalimsikh

Hey eclectic! You are wasting your time and intellect on aquamarine. Aquamarine is deeply immersed in the poisonous shit called islam. What aqua needs is a solid kick in the butt and the conviction that the kick is from allah (shit be upon him the all stench-ful). Brother Aqua, don't you know that Allah - stands for ALL Ass-Holes (shit be upon them). Yes. And this is NOT filthy language. This is accurate, well somewhat less accurate than is necessary, description. Mahomet (piss be upon him) broke treaties after treaties, not just with non-muslims; but also with your almighty (rather all-stenchy) allah. Mahomet (piss be upon him) was very fond of SOC, Sura of convenience. So when he had erection it was the month for fornication, when he couldn't get it up, it was the month of abstinence. He got Suras as were convenient for him (piss be upon him). Brother Aqua, you are calling me to forgive you? Brothers do not forgive; your muslim (piss be upon them) brothers surely donot forgive. They consider non-muslims as non-humans, and rape, enslave, dhimmify, and maraude them. But I (Sat Sri Akal) tell you, I tell you brother, that you Aqua, you donot need forgiveness. You merely need to forsake that unholy shit called Islam, and all will be well with you. Tell your misguided brothers that they need to forsake this disease. And all will be well with them. I am not asking you to become Sikh. You are already Sick! Convert to Christianity, Buddhism, Eclectism, whatever you like. Just get out of the shit-hole. And mine is not blasphemy ... it is the best symphony that was ever orchestrated for you and your misguided brothers. And remember, the time has come when non-muslims are going to do to muslims, what muslims did to them. So all this filthy talk of muslims fighting for justice will come to a zero. Muslims (unholy poisonous shit is already in them, and bombs are waiting to fall upon them). Swords more powerful than what our earlier peace loving gurus upheld will descend. You have only experienced muslim appeasement. Now get ready to experience muslim appiecement. Wahe Guru da Khalsa, Wahe guru de Fateh.

Eclectic

It all depends on what is interpreted as "war against Muslims". Anyone opposing Muslim proselytisation can become an oppressor of Muslims. Most of the claims of oppression of Muslims is from devout Muslim authors, hardly an unbiased source. Yet the truth slips in between the cracks. You should read what Muhammad did to the Banu Quraiza tribe as well the numerous other raids in which he massacred people, looted others' property, destroyed their idols, cut down their vineyards or date palms. He ordered assassinations, broke treaties and amputated the limbs of some thieves. Muhammad had no business trying to keep his viewpoint alive by such measures. He was like a religios ganglord trying to protect and extend his turf. In no other old religion with an identified religious founder, e.g. Buddha, Mahavira, Jesus, Guru Nanak have there been atrocities committed by the founder in the name of a god. That is why his followers today show much of the same traits. In fact, one of the most common sentences in the Quran is, "... theirs will be a painful doom". A religion of peace indeed.

aquamarine2772500

'Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just.' (Quran, Chapter 8, Verse 60) Textual evidence for my point.

aquamarine2772500

I see that you have never studied the actual wars that Muslims participated in under Muhammad. If you research true history and pure facts, you'll find that wars happened when the Meccans broke their treaty, when the Meccans killed Muslims in the safe haven that was the Kabah, when the Meccans threatened to destroy the Muslims, etc. The Muslims never oppress people, especially not by war, unless it was for the freedom of the Muslims' rights, for the right to stay in Mecca and be free of social exile, and for the right to follow Islam. So much for your saying that Islam is violent when Islam is peaceful. The principles of Islam are all peaceful. The only case where Allah commands war is where the Muslims are being oppressed and where they are deprived of their rights. That's only sane, isn't it? To fight for your rights. That's what you call violent. And not every Muslim war you hear of nowadadys is actually a true war. Much of it isn't for religious rights and freedoms and so it is not an Islamic war, no matter who calls it that. True rules for war in Islam can be researched if you ask an authentic scholar.

Eclectic

I've deleted 2 of Aquamarine's comments because this is not the place for diffuse, extended "theses". There was also nothing new in the claims that (a) Islam is a religion of peace (b) There is no compulsion in religion as per Islam (c) there is no possibility of people ever changing their points of view (d) no non-Muslim can correctly criticise Islam. Re (a), verse 5.33 of the Quran says: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom." Verse 2.216: "Warfare is ordained for you, though it is hateful unto you; but it may happen that ye hate a thing which is good for you, and it may happen that ye love a thing which is bad for you. Allah knoweth, ye know not. 2.217: . . . but to turn (men) from men from the way of Allah, and to disbelieve in Him, and in the Inviolable Place of Worship, and to expel his people thence, is a greater [transgression] with Allah; for persecution is worse than killing. And they will not cease from fighting against you till they have made you renegades from your religion, if they can. And whoso becometh a renegade and dieth in his disbelief: such are they whose works have fallen both in this world and the Hereafter. Re (b), verse 2.221 says: "Wed not idolatresses till they believe [i.e. convert]; for lo! a believing bondswoman is better than an idolatress though she please you; and give not your daughters in marriage to idolaters till they believe, for lo! a believing slave is better than an idolater though he please you. These invite unto the Fire ..." It is well-known that those giving up Islam are to be killed, as is made very clear in the Hadith. So much for freedom of religion. Re (c), mullahs and other Muslim activists all over the world are hard at work trying to keep the band of Muslims from disintegrating. This too is merely part of Islamic principle, practice & tradition. Re (d), it's a worthless defense along the lines of "you don't know Arabic". It is the responsibility of Muslims to justify the many violent and bigoted verses in the Quran.

aquamarine2772500

another analogy: Person A loves a particular flower. Person B hates a particular flower. Person A tries to convince Person B to look at that flower with love, so that Person B can appreciate the flower's beauty. Person B wants Person A to hate the flower, and tries to convince A to hate it. Neither Person A nor Person B will change their strong, innate views with anything short of a miracle (for better or for worse). It doesn't matter who is wrong and who is right. So, while the debate goes on, and it will, both person a and person b have to be patient and peaceful with one another. Here I think I am debating much more than is called for. I apologize sincerely if I offended anyone. I meant absolutely no harm to anyone or anything. Islam taught me that as humans, we are at a lack of understanding of intentions, circumstances, and situations. Islam taught me that I should look at an action as bad, but not the person. I just recognized this and so I hope you all forgive me if I offended anyone. If not as a believer of Islam, at least as a human.

aquamarine2772500

ALSO, muslims welcome criticism. because scholars ALWAYS will have the answer to the criticism, only few choose to look for the answer. Criticism as in questioning can be good if it helps you understand something. If the criticism is biased, no authentic sources, foul language, etc. then there is no way that that criticizer will want an answer. He or she would just keep criticizing. This apple is red. Criticizer: what apple? apples are green not red. what a liar! apples arent red- they are green and red. this must have been a pretty stupid person. I hope you get what im saying.

Eclectic

The argument goes as follows: if the Quran is criticised by X, then X doesn't know the Quran; if X praises the Quran, X is a great scholar. This is what passes for logic among observant Muslims. They want the whole world to accept them at their own partisan evaluation. If you have nothing of substance to say or can only give "proofs" which are self-referential, don't waste space with stupid comments. You will only antagonise people against Islam even more. On second thoughts, that's a good thing!

sipraomer

Studying Quran without having the proper knowledge is the same as a spanish speaking person not knowing the English language trying to learn Shakespeare and its message. Seeing one side of the picture and gaining information from Islam biased sources overseeing the facts and figures and without going to the depths is a childish behavior. Muhammad was foretold in bible as well as Torah and other ancient scriptures. People who know their books know it very well. Non Muslims scholars who can do justice state the personality of Muhammad as the most complete outstanding personality. In his book 100 Great Personalities a non muslim writer gives the rank of number 1 personality to Muhammad and number two to Jesus. Those however, who are blind and immature always babble and have nothing else to do and nothing else to say and are indeed jealous.

wsingh

this was the book that i was looking for. really a eye opening book thanks