BP-CVWF Transcripts 1/21/14

STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE
THREE EMPIRE STATE PLAZA, ALBANY, NY 12223-1350

www.dps.ny.gov
PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION AUDREY ZIBELMAN Chair PATRICIA L. ACAMPORA GARRY A. BROWN GREGG C. SAYRE DIANE X. BURMAN Commissioners KIMBERLY A. HARRIMAN Acting General Counsel KATHLEEN H. BURGESS Secretary
Re:
Case 12-F-0410- Cape Vincent Wind Power, LLC - Article 10 Application to the NYS Siting Board to Construct a Generating Facility - Procedural Status Conference 12/9/2013.
** Please note this is a Preliminary transcript, subject to later edits when reviewed by the Administrative Law Judges assigned to the cases.
Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.L.J. PAUL AGRESTA Administrative Law Judge Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 A.L.J. MARIA E. VILLA Department of Environmental Conservation 625 Broadway, 1st Floor Albany, New York Monday, December 9, 2013 Cape Vincent Elementary School Auditorium 410 S. Esselstyne Street Cape Vincent, New York 13618 CASE# 12-F-0410 APPLICATION OF CAPE VINCENT WIND POWER LLC, FOR A CERTIFICATE OF ENVIRONMENTAL COMPATABILITY AND PUBLIC NEED TO CONSTRUCT AN APPROXIMATELY 200-285 MEGAWATT WIND ELECTRIC GENERATING FACILITY IN THE TOWN OF CAPE VINCENT, NY STATE OF NEW YORK PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION
800.523.7887
Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. Page 2
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 APPEARANCES:
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 FOR PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION: ANDREW C. DAVIS Utility Supervisor Office of Energy Efficiency and the Environment ANTHONY BELSITO, Assistant Counsel NEW YORK STATE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION Three Empire State Plaza Albany, New York 12223-1350 FOR CAPE VINCENT WIND POWER, L.L.C.: BROWN & WEINRAUB JOHN HARRIS, ESQ. 54 State Street Albany, New York FOR NYS DEPARTMENT OF ENVIRONMENTAL CONSERVATION:
13 14 15 16 FOR TOWN OF CAPE VINCENT: 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. 800.523.7887 CURTIN & DeJOSEPH, P.C. BY: PAUL CURTIN 42 Albany Street Cazenovia, New York FOR JEFFERSON COUNTY LEGISLATURE: MICHAEL DOCTEUR, Vice Chairman Jefferson County Legislature 33112 NYS Route 12E Cape Vincent, NY 13618 FRED MUNK New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. 7327 State Route 812 Lowville, New York
800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 FOR WIND POWER ETHICS GROUP: CAROL SIMPSON Post Office Box 435 Cape Vincent, New York 13618
Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.
800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hear you. Paul Agresta. come to order. 7:02 p.m.)
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 (The public hearing commenced at
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Okay.
Please
I call case 12-F-0410, the application of Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C., for a certificate of environmental compatibility and public need to construct an approximately two hundred to two hundred and eighty-five megawatt wind electric generating facility in the Town of Cape Vincent. I am Administrative Law Judge I'm the presiding examiner that was
designated by the New York State Department of Public Service for this proceeding. With me today She's
is Administrative Law Judge Maria E. Villa. the associate --. UNIDENTIFIED SPEAKER:
We can't
A.L.J. AGRESTA: a little louder. volume?
Okay.
I'll try
Is there any way to adjust the
(Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. I'll 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 start over. Agresta.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 I'm Administrative Law Judge Paul
I'm the presiding examiner that was
designated by the New York State Department of Public Service for this proceeding. With me today She's
is Administrative Law Judge Maria E. Villa.
the associate examiner designated by the New York State Department of Environmental Conservation. We'll be working together throughout the entire proceeding. We'd like to thank the Thousand Islands School District for allowing us to use this facility. And I should note that this is the
second time we've been here and the second time it's rained. So we apologize for -- for that. Okay. Tonight's meeting is a It's being held
procedural status conference.
pursuant to a notice that was issued on November 26th, 2013. This conference is being recorded and
it will be transcribed into a written transcript that will be available on the siting board's website which is maintained by the Department of Public Service. In order to get a complete record, it will be necessary for all speakers to 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Harris.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 use a microphone and for everyone to be patient and speak one at a time. When we get to a point in the
program where people in the audience will be allowed to come up and ask questions, you're going to have to come forward and use the microphone in the front of the room. Now at this time, I'm going to take appearances. And what that means is I'm going
to ask the participants in today's conference that are representing organizations or individuals to identify themselves for the record. If you have
more than one person in your group, only one of you needs to speak for the group to make the appearance. I will call on particular parties
first and then, hopefully, everybody will get the hang of it as we go along. So first, I'd like to call on the Applicant, Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C., to make their appearance. MR. HARRIS: John Harris on
behalf of Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you, Mr.
Staff of the Department of Public 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cape Vincent? Andrew Davis. Service?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013
MR. BELSITO:
Anthony Belsito and
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Thank you.
Is there anyone here from the Department of Environmental Conservation? MR. MUNK: Yes. Fred Munk,
Department of Environmental Conservation. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you.
Is there anyone here from any other state agencies? Okay. Hearing none, the Town of
MR. CURTIN:
Paul Curtin, on
behalf of the Town of Cape Vincent. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Town of Lyme? The village of Chaumont? Nobody? Okay. Thank you. Nobody? Okay. Chaumont?
Is that close?
Any other organizations that would Okay. Very good.
like to make an appearance?
MR. DOCTEUR:
Michael Docteur,
Jefferson County Legislature, representing the Towns of Cape Vincent and Clayton on that board. Thank you. 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ethics Group? organization?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you.
Anybody else for any other
MS. SIMPSON:
Carol Simpson,
representing Wind Power Ethics Group. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you. Anybody else? Okay. Okay. Wind Power
There's -- the main agenda
for today's conference is that we have received a number of letters that are, I think, of interest to all of you. And I want to go down through some of
them and have a little bit of a dialog as to what they mean and as to where this case is going. I also -- at the end, I want to briefly address the issue of intervener funding. And then there will also be an opportunity for anyone, who wants to, to address any procedural concerns they have to the judges. The way this works, this is sort of like a judicial proceeding. If you're going to
speak, you should be addressing the judges only, not anybody else in the audience. Okay? And
everyone should be very polite and speak only one 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stab at that. at a time.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013
Now the first letter I want to address is one from -- from B.P. B.P. sent a
letter on October 25th to the secretary of the siting board, giving update on the status of the project. And it says that B.P. is actively seeking
to divest its entire portfolio and they expect that a new buyer will come and take over the project. And I have a couple of questions, Mr. Harris, for you. The first is that the letter
says the portfolio includes Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C. Could you just briefly give us a
description as to how the project's owned and what an L.L.C. is and how if -- if the L.L.C. would be sold to someone else what kind of a transaction that would be? MR. HARRIS: Sure, I'll take a
I guess it could be viewed as two --
two possible avenues for -- for the transaction. One would be just a sale of the assets, meaning the studies that have been done to date, the -- the leases with landowners, any assets of the corporation could, in theory, be sold. I think, conceptually, selling 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understanding?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 the corporation, you would -- you would essentially be selling the entire enterprise and maintaining the status of the current application. As you
know, we haven't even filed an application yet, but -- but effectively, you would be keeping in place that -- that entire limited liability corporation. A.L.J. AGRESTA: follow up a little bit. Okay. Let me
Now the leases that you
have, that's where a landowner has signed an agreement with B.P. that B.P. could come and use their land to erect a wind turbine. generally a fair description? MR. HARRIS: Yes. Okay. And I Is that
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
take it, from your answer, that those leases are written in such a way that they are transferable to another owner? MR. HARRIS: Correct. That's your
A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay.
So the people in the
audience who -- who have signed a lease, it's likely that that lease includes language that says B.P. can sell it to somebody else to develop the 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 project, instead of B.P. That's correct? Yes. Okay. And the
MR. HARRIS:
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
corporation itself that -- the Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C., one way for B.P. to sell the project would be to actually sell all the shares in the corporation to someone else. And in that event,
the corporation would live on just with different shareholders, basically, is what would happened? MR. HARRIS: Yes. All right. Now We
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
in that event we wouldn't have a new applicant.
would still have the same applicant which would be Cape Vincent L.L.C. -- Cape Vincent Wind Power, L.L.C., whereas if they sold the leases to somebody, it potentially might have a different applicant. it? MR. HARRIS: Correct. Okay. Thank Is that -- that your understanding of
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
So later on, when I get to some of the letters, the question is what happens in the future with this project and what happens may 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 depend on whether there is a sale, first of all, and what manner of sale it is. We may be in a
different situation if the assets are sold, rather than if the corporation is sold. So I wanted
people to understand that there's a distinction and something that will affect the process later on as we go forward. Okay? All right. Next, in the letter
it says although we continue to advance the project during the divestment process. Could you give us a
brief description of what the Applicant is continuing to do? MR. HARRIS: We're continuing to
finalize some of the studies that relate to cultural, environmental, noise, and visual impacts. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. So B.P.
has probably hired a consultant to do those studies and the consultant is still working on those studies? MR. HARRIS: Correct. For
example, we -- during the summertime, we had several meetings with Department of Environmental Conservation staff, as well as D.P.S. staff. And
in the course of that dialog, it was recommended 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 that certain work be undertaken. is being undertaken, still. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. All Some of that work
Now there are other activities that B.P. is Is that correct? Correct. And -- and
not continuing to do.
MR. HARRIS:
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
probably the majority of things fall into that category? MR. HARRIS: I -- I -- I would
say, at this juncture in the process, what -what's not happening is stipulation discussions are not ongoing. I think the -- the thought process
was if there's going to be a new owner in place, that it would make more sense for the new owner and their representatives to be engaging in those stipulation discussions, as opposed to B.P. currently and myself, or anybody else for that matter. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Which is
understandable because the new owner would be the one following through on the project. So if you're
getting someone to sign a stipulation, you would want the right person signing it who was going to 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 be there to do the project. But when you use the word new owner, everybody needs to remember that that's a general term. In a legal point of view, if the
corporation gets sold it's not technically a new owner, but there will be a new person managing the project, for instance -- or new shareholders, people in interest? MR. HARRIS: Correct. So we don't want
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
to get hung up on the word owner as -- as to what that means because it might mean something different depending on what happens. Okay. So we received -- the
secretary of the Commission received a letter from the Development Authority of the North Country. And they were alerting B.P. as to some of their concerns and -- but they also seemed to be expressing some concern that nothing seemed to be happening with a stipulation that they wanted to work out. So I'm assuming that the contents of that letter is covered by your statement that B.P. is not currently trying to finalize 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 stipulations; rather they're hoping to wait for a new owner to do that? MR. HARRIS: That's correct. And
also I think with respect to the Development Authority of the North Country, there was also some -- as you know, in the course of the stipulations dialog, input is given to the Applicant on various aspects of the project. depending on how the project may or may not be modified in consideration of some of those comments that have been made, the -- the issues that the Development Authority of the North Country has pointed out may actually go away. If turbines are -- turbines are relocated, if transmission corridors are moved, it would essentially render some of the DANC concerns moot. So there -- there was a twofold thought And
process with respect to the DANC comments and concerns. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. So if I
could say that another way, you're anticipating that if the project does go forward at some point, whoever the owner is will probably address some of the comments that they came up with, but that the 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Thank you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 Development Authority should not be expecting a call soon to work out a stipulation. That wouldn't
happen until some new ownership was in place? MR. HARRIS: Correct. Okay. Okay.
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Okay.
Now I want to address my
next question to -- well, first, we got a letter to the secretary from the Town of Cape Vincent. one is dated October 21st. This
It expresses doubt that
a lot of the people on the staff of the Department of Public Service have actually seen the Thousand Islands with their own eyes and it kindly offers to arrange for us a motorboat cruise or even a helicopter fly-over. That's very kind of you. I would like the D.P.S. staff to give a description of the kind of activities that they take in their advocacy on behalf of the public interest in terms of looking at whatever needs to be looked at in a case. And I'm going to call on
D.P.S. to, if they could, just, in general, explain the kind of things that they do. And then I also will point out 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 that the judges would likely, if a -- if a project was to go forward, would probably schedule a site viewing with all of the active parties. And there
would be an agreed upon itinerary and the parties would all go with the judges to any spot that was agreed upon that was an important place to take a look. And so basically, all the parties would come
together and come up with a list of where they wanted to go and, in mass, the whole group, even if it took a bus or a number of cars, would drive around the town to all the various sites and look at whatever needs to be looked at. In addition, and if the case really warranted, it would be possible for the members of the siting board to come up and do a similar exercise, though it's more likely that they will rely on A.L.J.s to do that. But there would
be an extensive effort to go around and look at anything anybody wanted us to look at. But I'm
going to ask staff to describe also what they do, which is even more extensive. MR. DAVIS: I'm Andrew Davis with
the Office of Energy Efficiency and Environment of the Department of Public Service. I'm the D.P.S. 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 project manager for the Cape Vincent Wind Farm Article 10 review. Typically, the Department staff isn't -- makes site visits to project areas to look at the -- the nature of the landscape, the types of land uses that are in the project area, natural resource and cultural resource areas available from -- you know, publicly, get a feel for the -the character of the community, the nature of the resources in the area, the surrounding areas, and try and understand firsthand what we read about in reports or in -- in a -- in an application. Having been involved for several years through the -- the SEQR reviews before the Article 10 pre-application materials were filed, I've been to the -- personally have been in the area several times over the last six or seven years, have met with a couple of local representatives to look at areas of concern to them, and have reviewed areas for -- well, for instance, this -- this summer when we were discussing visual studies with Cape Vincent's development team, I made a couple of trips to the area to look at potential viewpoints, made a lot of 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 photographs of the area, and you know, to -- to inform me of the kind of resources that are in the area and how they might best be represented in studies. So our staff team includes several environmental people, engineers, a legal staff, and community outreach people. And there --
there have been -- I'm not sure all those people have been to the -- to the area yet, but a number of -- a number of them have and will continue to be as -- as we move along in -- in looking at additional studies and any proposed stipulations that might be put on the table and as any of the various studies go forward. And then once we have
those studies, we'd go back and look at things in the field. In addition, we try and -- we're available to meet with landowners who might want us to review particular areas of concern or seek access from them to look at natural or cultural resources or land uses that might -- we think might be of -- of -- of issue. So, there's -- there's
quite a bit of -- of field time spent and visits to the area are a key part of what we do. 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 helpful.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 I know D.E.C., wildlife people look in the areas. The New York State Department
of Agriculture and Markets -- I'm going to speak for a couple of the agencies for a moment. Agriculture and Markets spends time looking at farmland impacts. It's -- it's -- field work is Is that helpful? Yes, it's very
part of how we do our jobs.
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
And if you could just describe a little
bit more about the visual simulations that -- you mentioned stipulations. I don't know if everybody Right now, we If the
understands what stipulations are.
are in the pre-application scoping process.
Applicant was actively moving forward with its project, the Applicant would be meeting with the various active parties to the case and trying to work out a written agreement as to the scope and methodology of different studies that go into the application. The last time we were here we mentioned that one of the stipulations we were hoping would occur would be a stipulation on visual assessment, which would include an agreement on where the important spots are in the town to -- to 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 view the turbines from. And what an applicant
would do then is they would go to each one of those spots and take a photograph of what it looks like now and then they would also prepare a visual simulation of what it would look like with the -with the turbines in place so that you can compare the view before and after the project. Now that stipulation never got any farther for the same reason, I'm guessing, is that none of the stipulations have been finalized. But at least there was some discussion about it as you described already. MR. DAVIS: going from recollection. Yes, and -- and I'm
There was over a hundred
potential viewpoints identified, based on prior studies that had been done, plus -- well, identification of the types of resources that needed to be addressed directly, attempt to identify local resources of -- of interest. And
then from those, overlay those on a -- a model of where the facilities are predicted to be visible, a computerized view shed would show where turbines and how many and how much of each turbine would potentially be visible on a map. And then on that 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 map would be these locations of viewpoints of interest. And then from those, a photo inventory And then from that set, areas of
would be made.
visibility would be priorities for picking representative viewpoints. Representative viewpoints are -attempt to select visual points that would represent both the view from this place and potentially similar places. What we had discussed
in our preliminary discussions with the company was making sure that there were -- there were potential viewpoints identified in each of the directions, all distance zones from right nearby to several miles away and everything in between, so that the full range of conditions would be represented in the -- in the final selected viewpoints. And then from those, there would be discussions among the -- the parties to -- to -to pick which of the viewpoints should go to final simulations, which are computer modeling and then artistic interpretation of -- or demonstration of what the -- the -- the -- the change in landscape would be based on the construction of the turbines as proposed. And then that is used to assess the 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 degrees of impact, the type of impact, and the needs for mitigation measures. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Would you also
likely be looking at a viewpoint from out in the lake, looking back towards the beach? MR. DAVIS: Yes, there was
discussion about -- my recollection is we looked at identified places from Chaumont Bay and all the way around the -- from Lake Ontario and then up the -up the St. Lawrence River or down the river, I
guess, it would be -- to identify locations to use towards the project. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Thank
All right. to the next issue then.
I'm going to move on
The next letter I have is This one is
also from the Town of Cape Vincent.
dated -- you guys have written a lot of letters. Every time you write a letter, no matter who you address it to, it ends up on my desk. Secretary Burgess. This is to
It's -- one of the issues it
talks about is whether the regulations could be improved with some kind of a timeline as for complying with various elements in the regulations. 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 So I wanted to talk about that a little bit. There currently is no timeline mandatory timeframe within which an applicant must, from the date that it files its original documents to the date it must file an application. purpose. That's on
If -- if a -- if, in the stipulations
process, the scope process of what should go into the application -- for instance, let's say that a party says that they want some kind of a study about wildlife and the wildlife expert says that it will take a full year to do that kind of a study because you have to study wildlife in all four seasons. Or the visual simulation, it's decided
that to do it properly you need to do it with pictures that show leaves on the trees and leaves off the trees, which for instance, if you started it in November when the leaves were already down, you'd have to wait six to nine months before you could take the next set of pictures. When we wrote the regulations, we realized that there was no way to pick a timeframe that was going to be one size fits all for every project. So unfortunately, we deliberately did not But we're going to -800.523.7887
put a deadline in there.
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 we're going to talk today a little bit about what happens when we sort of get into this limbo phase where nothing's going on and -- and how we can get out of it. Anyway, I want to address that one
element of the regulations. And then the letter goes on to ask whether we can provide the town with some indication of how long this phase of the process will continue. know. The short answer is that we don't
We know that the Applicant, in its letter,
felt that it was perhaps going to be able to sell the -- the portfolio by the end of the year. don't know. Do you have any more information on that, Mr. Harris, or is that all we have? MR. HARRIS: I don't think I
they'll sell the portfolio by the end of the year. I think they are moving as expeditiously as possible to sell either the entire portfolio or portions of the portfolio as soon as possible. That's -- that's what they're trying to do. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. And
that's -- that's probably all you know about it and probably all we're going to find out about it at 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that is.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 this point because I would assume that whoever's being courted to buy the property is not going to be wanting that information disclosed and is going to keep it -- require that it be kept confidential. MR. HARRIS: Correct. And -- and when
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
they have a deal, then they would announce it to the public. Okay. So we don't really know what's We know that nothing's
going to happen right now.
going to happen in the next few weeks, which is good news for some, because you can take the holidays off and not think about any of this stuff. But at some point, it's going to become -- you know, if we don't hear anything for a number of months, at some point it's going to become a problem for everybody going -- a lot of people have put their lives on hold, not knowing whether either they're going to get a turbine built near them that's going to affect them in one way, or they're going to host a turbine and that's going to affect them in another way. say enough is enough. I don't know what the answer to I know that we're not at that point yet. 800.523.7887 But at some point, we have to
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 The -- the State of New York, generally, recognizes that ventures of this type are entrepreneurial and sometimes they go through these kind of transfers and it takes some time. leeway. And there will be some
But after a certain number of months,
there's also going to come a time when we're going to say we're going to close the application down. If we were to close an application down, it wouldn't preclude you from starting all over again, but of course it would mean you'd have to start all over again. So I don't know where -- where that point's going to be, but I think, at least given on what you said, we'll probably check back around March to find out whether there's been an announcement of a sale or not. If there has not
been an announcement of a sale, then perhaps we will have to create some kind of a process to hear from all sides as to whether we should allow the application to proceed. So, I guess -- I mean until we hear what the Applicant's doing, we're all kind of stuck in this limbo. And so I guess what we'll
probably do is sometime in March, if we haven't 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 heard anything, we'll probably schedule some kind of a conference to find out where we are and what we should do about it. Okay. And when we're all done
with this give and take, if anybody wants to ask further questions about anything we've discussed, there will be an opportunity later on tonight. Let me -- let me move on to the There's a letter from Cape Vincent And this one talks about a
dated September 19th.
visual characteristics survey that was distributed by B.P. to some of the residents of Cape Vincent. And one question asked -- that the town had some criticisms with the survey and one question asked was was the survey vetted by the Department of Public Service or the Department of Environmental Conservation. And unlike the D.P.S. people that are here, and I don't know if -- if you have enough information to answer this also on behalf of D.E.C., was the survey vetted by -- by you folks and what other thoughts do you have on it? MR. DAVIS: I'm going to wind
back a little bit to, I think, the June or July 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 Several agencies and B.P. and Mr.
Curtin from the -- representing the Town of Cape Vincent had a discussion about the visual impact studies that the -- the company had proposed in its preliminary scoping statement. One of the -- one -- one of the questions I asked about was -- and this is sometimes done as to somehow capture how the people using the landscape, what do they appreciate -appreciate about it. And the -- the idea came from
a -- a guidebook published by, I believe, the National Heritage Trust, which is a cultural resource and a historic preservation advocacy, national group in this country. They published a
book several years ago, which is a guide to working with the community to identify resources of interest to the community, and how to understand what -- what they appreciate about those resources, and then how they might be identified and characterized and documented. And I suggested to B.P. and its consultant that they review that and consider incorporating that somehow into their studies. And
then in a follow-up meeting, it came -- I brought 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 it up again because it hadn't been put on the table. again. There was no follow-up, so I asked about it B.P. came back with a -- sometime in
August, I believe it was, a list of questions in a survey. And I reviewed that and, in a conversation
with B.P.'s consultant, suggested that this really wasn't the approach that the National Heritage Trust advocated, which was more of a -- a sit down kind of just a charrette meeting -- informal meeting discussion with -- kind of just off the cuff. It's to spur people's memories. It's to get their impromptu consideration without studying maps and without digging in. an informal step. It's kind of
And this -- so my reaction to
the survey was well, this might be interesting, but it's -- it's not really the kind of thing that this guidebook advocates at this step. So I said -- I told them I would not endorse that study as proposed, but if they were going to put it out, I suggested a couple of variations and different questions to change the character of some of the questions they were asking. But that was the last I saw about -- saw 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 or had any involvement in. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. I take
it, then, you would have rather had completed a stipulation and set up the process that you described with -- I think you called it a charrette? MR. DAVIS: Yeah, a charrette is
kind of a design meeting or it's a term used in planning and --. A.L.J. AGRESTA: So basically,
you have a facilitator and a bunch of people in a room -MR. DAVIS: Right. -- and then a
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
facilitator kind of sort of asks questions and sort of brings out of people, through a conversation, what their -- what's important to them in terms of the visual environment of their community? MR. DAVIS: guided discussion kind of -A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. DAVIS: Uh-huh. Okay. It's an informal
-- approach. Okay. All
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
And I'm assuming from your comments, you 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right. Okay.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 didn't supervise the survey or any of the -MR. DAVIS: No. -- the things?
A.L.J. AGRESTA: All right.
So I hope that clarifies the
D.P.S. involvement. In the same -- does D.E.C. have anything they want to add to that, Mr. Monk? MR. MUNK: staff of the region here. involvement with that. I know the regional
We did not have any
We didn't discuss it with I
B.P. when we had our meeting with them in July. don't believe Albany staff had any involvement, also, either. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. All
And we, as the judges, are not making any
value judgment as to whether things should be done one way or another way at this point. We're just
trying to address the concerns in the letter. The question was whether D.P.S. had any involvement. Mr. Curtin? Your Honor, for the
MR. CURTIN:
record, I did participate in a conference call with Mr. Davis and -- and others. And those questions The 800.523.7887
were being discussed, amongst others.
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 impression I had was that the top -- the issues that we identified were going to be revisited and I think they were revisited, in part, directly with staff, not with me. I didn't participate any
further in that dialog, directly or indirectly, and did not see the survey until I received a copy that was provided by representatives of the town. So we
had no input beyond that meeting back in -- back in July. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Okay.
So hopefully, if the -- if the
application does go forward, there will be another meeting on this issue and a meeting of the minds as to what should be done to go forward. In the same letter, paragraph number six, there's a request for two Excel files containing the mailing list and the final raw data file with all the responses from each of the questions. Now this letter's addressed to the So who were you
secretary of the Commission.
expecting to provide this information? MR. CURTIN: If the information
was disclosed -- if the information was disclosed to staff, since this went to P.S.C., we were hoping 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 that the -- the staff, in turn, could convey it to the town for further analysis. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. CURTIN: Okay.
We're unaware if any
of the information that was garnered was even collated or analyzed or submitted to staff for further --. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Even if
the staff had it, the -- the secretary wouldn't know. The staff team is kind of an independent
group at this point, working off on their own. They have to be kept independent from the advisors to the siting boards, which is the judges. And the
secretary is -- is in the group with the advisors. So going forward, if you have this kind of a request, you should either make it directly to B.P. or to staff in some kind of discovery request or at this stage it should just be a friendly letter. We haven't really gotten to But if you just make --
the discovery phase yet.
if you make them to the secretary, you're just eventually going to hear back that we don't do that. So I don't want you to waste your time. MR. CURTIN: We haven't heard it 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right. Okay. yes.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 as yet, but thank you for the guidance. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. CURTIN: Okay. Okay.
We've heard it now,
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Okay.
All
The next letter is from the Town of And the one
Cape Vincent, dated November 7th.
issue in the letter I wanted to raise with the town is it talks about any future developer of Cape Vincent should not expect a PILOT agreement. That's a payment in lieu of taxes agreement. And I'd ask the town if they could please explain what it is that they meant by this statement? MR. HIRSCHEY: Sure. I believe
that that statement was made with the expectation that the -- that our zoning laws were not going to be adhered to. If our zoning laws were adhered to,
then of course, we'd have to stand behind them. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Could you
explain for the group what a PILOT agreement is, first of all? MR. HIRSCHEY: payment in lieu of taxes. 800.523.7887 A PILOT is a
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 money.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. And in
what circumstances does the town enter into an agreement like that? that? Go ahead. MR. HIRSCHEY: It saves them Maybe Mr. Curtin can answer
MR. CURTIN:
A PILOT agreement
is -- is essentially contractual agreements between the developers, applicants, and municipalities. They are used as vehicles to defer the tax load on projects and to induce positive development. They're usually for specified periods of time, at the end of which term the agreement terminates by its own terms, if you will, and the properties become fully assessed. So these are scheduled payments that usually are escalated over a period of, say, ten years on an accelerated basis that gives the -the project, if it is something that the town wants to induce or the municipality wants to induce for positive economic benefit, gives the project the -the -- the benefit of not having full assessment of -- of the -- of the real property involved in the project until such time as it has -- fully has 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Right.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 its legs underneath it. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. I believe
there are also some PILOT agreements that do not include a discount on the rate, but they merely create an agreement between the town and the developer as to what the assessment will be. MR. CURTIN: That is correct.
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
And -- and in
that situation, it helps both parties because the developer knows exactly what his taxes are going to be for the next ten years and the town knows that day one after the developer gets his certificate of occupancy, he's not going to file for a tax reduction. MR. CURTIN: That's correct. So -- so there's
A.L.J. AGRESTA: two types of PILOTs.
One is where you give them a And the other
bonus to get them to come into town.
is just where you both agree to live by a certain amount, which helps both sides, so depending on how you want to go. Now, the PILOT agreement is completely outside of the Article 10 process. Does 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 All right. county.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 everybody understand that? MR. CURTIN: Uh-huh. Okay. So we
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
will not be adjudicating whether or not there would be a PILOT agreement in this proceeding. purely between the developer and the town. Now, somebody was here from the Does the county have an I.D.A., Industrial It is
Development Agency? MR. CURTIN: MR. DOCTEUR: Yes. Yes, we do. Okay. And does
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
that entity have the ability to enter into a PILOT agreement if the town doesn't want to? MR. DOCTEUR: No, not without the In this
consent of all three taxing jurisdictions.
case, Thousand Islands School District, County of Jefferson, and the Town of Cape Vincent. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. So you
need affirmative assent before you can sign on behalf of the town? MR. DOCTEUR: That is correct. Okay. Okay.
A.L.J. AGRESTA: All right. All right.
The next 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 letter, again, from the Town of Cape Vincent, Nov 4. This letter talks about Met Towers. Now Met is
short for some version of meteorological -- I can't even pronounce it. It's basically a tower that
somebody puts up to measure the wind speed for a period of time to decide whether or not it would be a good place to put a wind turbine. Now the town talks, in its letter, about having granted permits on an annual basis to B.P. for Met Towers that have not been renewed. Could the town give us an update? Are
there -- is there a current permit in place for the Met Towers? MR. CURTIN: place for the Met Towers. 12/31/2013. There is a permit in
The permit expires on
Notifications have gone out to the
Applicant, B.P., that if they're going to maintain these towers on an ongoing basis, the permits need to be renewed and the fees associated with those renewals need to be paid to the town. Those notifications went out in early November so that B.P. would have adequate time to respond. To date, as of close of business
today, no response has been received from -- from 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 right.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 B.P. and no application for an extension of the permit has been received either. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Do you
have some kind of security to back up the permit? MR. CURTIN: No, there is no
additional security that was given at the time the Met Towers were erected. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. CURTIN: Okay.
So --. Mr. Harris, do
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
you have anything -- any additional information you can give us on this issue? MR. HARRIS: information than that. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. All I have no more
Again, this is a matter that does not So you guys How
involve the siting board at this time.
are going to do whatever you're going to do. long have the Met Towers been there? MR. CURTIN: there for several years. for quite a few years now.
The towers have been
They've been maintained And I think the purpose
of my notification to the secretary of the Commission was to kind of underscore the -- the 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 understood.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 sense of frustration that the town has experienced relative to this process and the fact that there -there has been little, if any, follow-through by B.P. and this is merely an example of that. there is ongoing concern that has not been addressed. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. And -So
and Mr. Harris, you may want to communicate back to the Applicant that if these towers have any continuing use to them, they may want to renew their permit. MR. HARRIS: Completely
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Yeah.
And it
may also be that they have enough data already and they don't need them anymore. I don't really know.
But once again, at this time anyway, this is not a siting board matter. And then the letter goes on to request and require that all applications be commenced at the very point of beginning if there's a new owner. And that's something we touched on a If there was a sale of the If there was a 800.523.7887
little bit earlier.
assets, there would be a new owner.
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 sale of the corporation, there wouldn't, technically, be a new owner. Under either
situation, it's likely that we would do an assessment of what's -- what has changed, if anything, and decide how much of what's been done can be used. You will remember that we have not yet even gotten an application. So from our
point of view, this is in the very earliest stages. I think probably if a new owner came in and wanted to change the whole project around, we may have to reconsider intervener funding for the scoping phase if it drastically changes. But I cannot promise
you that a new ownership is going to result in everything starting from scratch. We will have to
do a realistic appraisal of where we are and -- and we will take input from everybody before we decide what to do. But that's the best we can give you. Okay. That concludes all the I want to
letters that I wanted to talk about.
briefly mention intervener funding and then I'm going to open it up for anyone that wants to ask us questions of a procedural nature. On intervener
funding, now intervener funding, for those who 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 don't know, the Applicant was required to give us a check for ninety-nine thousand, seven hundred fifty dollars, which we are able to give out to parties participating in the pre-application phase to pay them back for their expenses if they were approved. To date, we awarded intervener funds for ninety -- approximately ninety-four percent of the money. And I have approved vouchers
to pay about forty percent of the money, though my understanding is that the state still hasn't paid all of those -- those vouchers. I have been
following up and our department has been following up. But what I wanted to say about the intervener funding is since we are kind of in a hiatus, I would suggest that the parties who got monies, unless they were for a specific study, should probably hold off and husband that money because if the project does heat up again, there's going to be more process and you're probably going to want to still have some money left over to handle the additional process that comes on. We will continue to process any vouchers we get for stuff you've already spent. 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you. all I have. to --?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 And I would suggest you get them in as soon as you can because it takes a very long time. After I
approve them, they go to the office of general services, then they go to the state comptroller, and then they go to the state treasurer, and then finally somebody actually writes a check. And I
can't -- once it leaves my desk, I can't do -- I don't have any more control over it than any of you do. So the sooner we get that stuff, the better. So that's -- that's pretty much Have you got anything else you want
A.L.J. VILLA:
I don't; thank
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Thank you.
So
if there's anyone here who would like to come up and ask a question of a procedural nature, we'll try to do our best to answer it. And if you could
give us your name very clearly for the record before you begin? MS. SULLER: Debra Suller I have
(phonetic spelling), I'm from Cape Vincent. a question.
I am a former accountant and not an
attorney, but I thought L.L.C.s have members, not 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not confused. Harris? stockholders.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 And I'm getting a little bit
confused between the Cape Vincent Wind L.L.C. and B.P. We seem to use those terms interchangeably.
But if there is a difference and the L.L.C., if it's an L.L.C. which has elected to be treated as a corporation and the corporation B.P., I'd just like to have that clarified. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. As best I
understand it, there's the B.P. Corporation, which is this giant corporation. Then there's a
corporation in the middle, which is a subsidiary that's wholly owned by B.P., which is the B.P. Wind Company. And then each individual project is
probably held in a limited liability corporation, which is what the -- the Applicant here is. I
don't know whether it's in the form of stock or some other technical term. I don't know if you know, Mr.
MR. HARRIS: would be a membership interest.
In New York, it
A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. HARRIS:
Okay.
So you're -- you're
800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. SULLER: Okay.
Thank you. And I'm not sure
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
if that matters one way or the other. MS. SULLER: be stock to transfer. MR. HARRIS: It -- it -- the Well, there wouldn't
membership interest is essentially a -- a -- it's very similar to a shareholder interest or a stock in the entity, so you would be transferring the membership interest in the L.L.C. to a new owner. A.L.J. AGRESTA: So I take it
it's something that's readily transferable? MR. HARRIS: Correct. Okay. Okay.
A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. SULLER:
Also I just wanted
to say that my sister and I invested in some real estate that has a wonderful water view, here in the village, and we haven't had any interest in it. People -- I just don't want to talk to anybody about moving to Cape Vincent. We have a huge Everything is
number of properties for sale here.
up in limbo and it's really hurting our community to have this continue on and on and on with no end 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 us a question? you. in sight. us.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 It's just -- it's not good for any of
A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. SULLER:
Okay.
Thank you. Okay. Thank
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
We're not going to take those kind of We are fully aware of the impact
statements today.
it has on the community and how this puts many people's lives on hold. We are limited today to
not whether you like it or not, it's -- it's primarily process, though I will admit that that is -- relates to the process. I'm going to assume
that there are hundreds of people around here who would like things to move either one way or the other so they can get on with their lives and we're going to do everything we can to address that. Any -- who else would like to ask
MR. LAMAR:
Good evening.
My
name is David Lamar (phonetic spelling). not so much a question as I do an advice.
I have With all
due respect to the P.S.C. or the Public Service staff -A.L.J. AGRESTA: Uh-huh. 800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 MR. LAMAR: -- and to Mr. Harris,
who represents B.P., and to you folks, who represent the siting process, most of the information that they are seeking in the -- in the survey that they talked about conducting or this process of finding out what people like about Cape Vincent or what it is we like about the character and all those things, all of the information that you need to know and that you need to know and that you need to know is written in this town's comprehensive plan in their zoning law. Much of what they're talking about and what you are doing is terribly redundant. As I understand it, the default position of this Article 10 process is that the local zoning laws and local considerations are going to be applied unless someone can show that they're overly burdensome. If these folks are interested in
knowing what we appreciate about our community, why -- why is it necessary to say that it's overly burdensome to anyone if they want to know if it's important to us? that information. surveys. My -- my point is -- is we have You don't need to do any more
All you need to do is read our 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 comprehensive plan and our zoning law. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. Thank you. Thank
I can assure you that the staff team will be
looking at the comprehensive plan, as will we, and that that would be a key factor in a determination as to whether or not local laws are unreasonably restrictive. us to look at. That would be a commonplace thing for Thank you. Anybody else? MR. SCHNEIDER: name is Cliff Schneider. the Town of Cape Vincent. Yes, sir? Judge Agresta, my
I'm a council member for One procedural question.
In the rules that were written in Section 1000.17, it talks about the transfer of a certificate -A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. SCHNEIDER: certificate has been awarded. Uh-huh. -- once a
And it gives the
town or municipality the right to oppose the transfer somewhere in the process. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. SCHNEIDER: Uh-huh. And we're
wondering here, in line with the question that -that Attorney Curtin had posed, and that's the fact that if there is a transfer of everything up to 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 matter.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 this point in terms of pre-application, there's a lot less involved, I think, at this stage than an applicant would be if they've gone all the way through the process and then be given a certificate. So the question is do we still have the right, as a community and as a town, to oppose any kind of transfer when that point in time arrives where the -- where you do have a new buyer? Can we -- can we be involved in having the same right that you would if you had granted a certificate? A.L.J. AGRESTA: The short answer
is no, you don't have an input into the transfer process. If B.P. wants to sell their asset to
somebody else, the siting board has no say in it either. The certificate is a different If the siting board had granted a
certificate, the siting board has, by regulation, as you state, taken an affirmative action to exercise its jurisdiction over its certificate. But until the siting board grants something, there's -- there's nothing for us to supervise. 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 What I will give you is that if there is a change in ownership, we will have some kind of a process to determine where do we go from here, how does it change what's going on, what new has to be done, if anything, and we will all sit down and talk. MR. SCHNEIDER: appreciate being involved in that. MR. CURTIN: add one further comment? We would Thank you.
Judge, if I may just
You mentioned March is,
in essence, a control date to see what transpires with B.P. and this initiative between now and -and -- and then. And one of the reasons we're here
is because of the -- the lack of progress and the -- the ambiguity that we're experiencing. May
I suggest a control date of Monday, March the 17th, at least that's a date that we can all look towards --? A.L.J. AGRESTA: Patrick's Day; is it? MR. CURTIN: didn't check that. It may well be. I But That's not St.
I will not be in New York.
at least it gives us a control date to -- for B.P. to report to you, for us to have a sense of 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 March.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 expectation that there will be some news of some sort by then. and --. A.L.J. AGRESTA: You wouldn't That's -- that's about mid-month
rather have the Ides of March, the 15th? MR. CURTIN: The Ides of March
would work, but that -- that falls on a Saturday, so I don't think that, by my sense -- I already looked that up, but -- but that falls on a Saturday, unfortunately. But I'm just -- just
offering date that -- that we can -- we can all look for and at least for a report out as to any progress if -- if not as -- if we do not hear anything from Mr. Harris or others between now and then. A.L.J. AGRESTA: That's the middle of March. Yeah, I had said Yeah, if -- if
we don't hear anything by then, then I think it will be on the judges to contact the parties and try to figure out what to do next. no -- there's no report or anything. I mean there's If we haven't
heard from anybody by then, we will step back into the process and contact everybody to find out what's going on. 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 pass it? Cape Vincent.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 MR. CURTIN: Okay. Thank you.
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
I should caution
everyone that if there is a sale, let's say -let's say the parties come to terms in January and sign a term sheet and announce it, we don't know how long it will take to consummate the sale. that's one of the things we would be asking. may be a matter of a few weeks or it may be a matter of months before they can consummate the sale. So we're all going to have to, you know, So It
sort of play it by ear to see what happens, unfortunately. Okay? Yes, ma'am? MS. ELIZABETH: Ms. Elizabeth, One is for
I have two questions.
you and one is for, if I may ask --. A.L.J. AGRESTA: address it to us and -MS. ELIZABETH: Okay. You'll You have to
A.L.J. AGRESTA: believe that we asked it. MS. ELIZABETH:
-- we'll make
Okay.
If -- if
this sale or the -- the hope of a sale wasn't in 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 limit.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 place and if B.P. was still going to continue with -- with the project, would -- is there any time limit in which they have to would have had to put their application in or could that have gone on for years and years? A.L.J. AGRESTA: There is no time
We would be pestering B.P. to bring it to And at some
closure the stipulations process.
point we might step in and demand that they either sign stipulations by a certain date or proceed without them. But when you have an applicant
that's announced that it -- it has no plans of going forward, itself, the -- the public would not be served by our doing that right now. We've been
through enough of these situations where we know that we're in this limbo state and there's no good way out of it. question. but --. MS. ELIZABETH: No. So this may So I -- I hope that answers your
I'm not sure you like the answer,
be redundant because I found that when this gentleman -- when you asked him about the siting and -- and the aesthetics and so forth, I could not hear that answer -800.523.7887
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Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH: if this is redundant. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH: Okay. But what I Okay. -- so I apologize
gleaned from it was that they -- they come up here, they look at various sites and so forth, and -- and what -- and how siting a wind turbine might affect the aesthetics and so forth. Is that correct? That's correct. Okay. So -- so
A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH:
do they look at the whole thing, because as -unless I'm mistaken, and missed something while I was away, we don't know specifically where those sitings will be? So does this group just look at
the whole town and say well, if they're here, this might really affect the aesthetics, if they're here, they're not, or do they at that point know where they'll be? A.L.J. AGRESTA: Well, and you
can correct me if I'm wrong, Mr. Davis, they generally create a study area and they assume that the turbines are going to be somewhere in the study area. Now B.P. has, more or less, outlined the 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 study area in one of their maps and shows you, more or less, where the turbines are going to be. that mean that each turbine is laid out in the exact location where it's going to be? not intended to be. No. It's Does
That's a -- there's a
construction -- if they were to get a certificate, there's a construction process that happens where they look at individual sites, soil types and stuff like that, where they're actually going to put the -- the final turbine, and they ask for certain leeway to move things around. But generally, they're -- what they're looking at is they're trying to get a big picture of the impact on the whole area and they're trying to get representative viewpoints of okay, if you've got a turbine near a farm and you've got ten places where you have a turbine near a farm, you would model one of those locations and -- and do a full visual simulation and you would assume that that visual simulation would have similar impacts at the other nine farms. MS. ELIZABETH: Even though some
of those farms might be very close to the waterfront -800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 not?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH: Well --- and some might
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
-- if there were
significant different conditions, then -- then there would be a separate group that would be representative of some other condition for which they would also model. So I'm -- I'm saying they
group things into similar buckets and then they do a visual representation. MS. ELIZABETH: And so none of
this really happens until an application is filed? A.L.J. AGRESTA: Well, we're in
the -- we're in the pre-application scoping phase now -- or we were. And in that phase, the parties
are supposed to agree as to what studies should go into the application. Then the applicant would do At that
a study, submit it in the application.
point, the parties would have the opportunity, either to critique what the applicant did or, in rebuttal, submit their own studies, showing what they want to show if they don't think the applicant did a good enough job. And that's one of the
reason why we give intervener funding, so that the 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 parties can afford to go hire their own expert. MS. ELIZABETH: now this is all at a standstill -A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH: Yes? -- until we find Right. So now --
out if it's been sold or March 17th and then you --? A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. ELIZABETH: MR. HARRIS: Yes. Okay. Thank you.
Can I clarify? Sure.
A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. HARRIS:
Just with respect to
visual, that is one of the activities where the visual consultant is still undertaking work. As
Andy Davis pointed out, there were over a hundred sites that were primarily identified. The mapping
exercise that's going -- that needs to take place in terms of identifying which of those sites are -are visual from which topographical areas, that work is continuing. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Right. But --
but you don't expect any further interaction with the public at this phase? MR. HARRIS: Correct. 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Thank you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: Right. Okay.
Yes, go ahead. MR. BYRNE: Administrative Law Judges. is John Byrne. Thank you, Good evening. My name
I think you can tell by the tone in
the room that there's a sensitivity to the timeframe of -- of what's been going on with this project and the way that the town feels like we're kind of up in the air. I'm sure you're aware of
case zero nine T zero zero four nine, which is the Galop Island Project. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. BYRNE: Uh-huh.
And although that was
under the P.S.C.'s rule of Article 7, not Article 10, that started off in about '09 and went to late '11 when the P.S.C. had determined that that project had carried on too long without a lot of activity. One of the quotes that I've taken from that case that I thought was significant -significant was the land owners assert that due to the pending proceeding, they cannot develop their agricultural business properties until they know if 800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 homework.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 and what manner the proposed project will impact their properties. I'm sure you've done your We've been dealing with wind development And
in Cape Vincent for eight to ten years now. it's -- it's had a tremendous impact on this community, not a positive one.
There are some
folks that are chasing the dollar, which, you know, I -- I give them credit that, you know, they -they want to make a buck. And there's other people
that feel that they're under threat for their property. I would just ask and beg that you -- you
expedite this process, if we could, because it's having a tremendous negative impact on our community. come. And I thank you for taking the time to
Thank you. A.L.J. AGRESTA: I'm very
familiar with that case.
And one of the reasons
why I wanted to hold this meeting tonight was to show you that we're not just off on the side not paying attention to what's going on. In that other They just
case, I don't think they ever came back.
kept having telephone conferences every month to see if anything was happening. 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for coming out.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 I -- I thought here, we would be a little more proactive and come out and have a frank discussion with everybody. want this to linger on forever. You know, I don't If there's going
to be a new owner, we want to get the new owner in and get things moving. If there's not going to be Okay?
a new owner, we want to shut the thing down. Next? Yes?
MR. BRAGDON: Brooks Bragdon.
Your Honor, thanks When you were
here in May or June, one of the things we said with regard to stipulations was that we wanted to ask the developer to come up with a variation of the project that would be in compliance with the local law or more or less in compliance with the local law. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MR. BRAGDON: Uh-huh.
I fully understand
that all of the stipulations are on hold at this point. Subsequent to that, I -- I had a And I said to
conversation with Richard Chandler.
him Richard, how are you coming with that, are you making any progress with complying with the local law. He said well, I really don't think I need to 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Anybody else?
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 take that literally and I don't intend to do that. Could you clarify for me what you meant by that? Is that an instruction? Is -- is that something
he -- that the developers have to do or when this project -- if it were to become active again, is that going to be a requirement or where does all of that stand? A.L.J. AGRESTA: Well, I can't
require the developer to enter into a stipulation. But if the developer doesn't, other parties are free to ask for a study such as that one and the administrative law judges are free to ask for such a study. And it's my opinion, at least, that we
need that kind of a study as part of this record. So if the Applicant doesn't enter into a stipulation to do something like that, I'm probably going to end up requiring it at some point. A
smart applicant would hear that and work it out in advance, rather than risking slowing down the project later on. MR. BRAGDON: clarifying that, Judge. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Yeah. Okay. Thank you for
800.523.7887
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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. that's --.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 MS. HARRIS: My name is Ann
Harris and I'm on the Town of Lyme board, but I'm speaking for myself, not for the Town of Lyme. And
I just wondered, this is a legal proceeding and I understand that sometimes we get caught up in legal language. But I'm just curious to know if there's
any industrial wind projects proposed for any areas where either any of the P.S.C. members live or any of the members of the board? And if so, how would
they feel about these -- their homes -A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. That's --
MS. HARRIS: proposed for their homes?
-- if a project was
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
I appreciate
That's not one of the kind of questions
that's on the table for today. MS. HARRIS: Okay. And I don't know
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
where the site board members even live, so it's kind of hard to answer. MS. HARRIS: everybody to -- to think. A.L.J. AGRESTA: I understand 800.523.7887 I just wanted
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 what you're saying and I'm sure the siting board members understand that when something's proposed for your community, that it has an impact on you. And we also have two ad hoc members who have been appointed, but they haven't had anything to do yet because we don't have an application. But they are
from this area and -- and they are supposed to help the siting board understand the local perspective. MS. HARRIS: Thank you. Okay. Thank
A.L.J. AGRESTA:
MS. COLLINS:
Hello.
My name is
Mary Collins (phonetic spelling).
In the state,
we're seeing that a lot of effort is being put into tourism for the Thousand Islands area. A.L.J. AGRESTA: MS. COLLINS: Uh-huh.
Is the siting board
working with the tourism to look at how tourism would be affected by the siting of wind turbines in any area of the state? A.L.J. AGRESTA: Well, one of the
members of the siting board is from what they call Empire State Development, the commissioner of commerce. And tourism is in their bailiwick, so 800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 8:15 p.m.) Okay.
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 they have staff that will be advising the siting board, along with the advice they get from us on those issues. MS. COLLINS: Okay. Thank you.
A.L.J. AGRESTA: built into the statute. MS. COLLINS:
So it's already
Okay.
Thank you.
A.L.J. AGRESTA: This is the last call. A.L.J. VILLA: A.L.J. AGRESTA:
Anybody else?
Anything else? Not from me. Okay. We
greatly appreciate everybody turning out tonight. I know this has been a long process. back here. March. We may not. And we may be
We'll see what happens in
I want to thank everyone for coming out
and, again, thank you for the school district for letting us use their facility. off the record. (The public hearing concluded at Goodnight. We're
800.523.7887
800.523.7887
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25
Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 STATE OF NEW YORK I, Howard Hubbard, do hereby certify that the foregoing was reported by me, in the cause, at the time and place, as stated in the caption hereto, at Page 1 hereof; that the foregoing typewritten transcription consisting of pages 1 through 65, is a true record of all proceedings had at the hearing. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto subscribed my name, this the 16th day of December, 2013. ___________________ Howard Hubbard, Reporter
800.523.7887

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STATE OF NEW YORK DEPARTMENT OF PUBLIC SERVICE

THREE EMPIRE STATE PLAZA, ALBANY, NY 12223-1350

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc. Page 2

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Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hear you. Paul Agresta. come to order. 7:02 p.m.)

Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 (The public hearing commenced at

A.L.J. AGRESTA: a little louder. volume?

Is there any way to adjust the

(Off-the-record discussion) A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay. I'll 800.523.7887

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 start over. Agresta.

Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 I'm Administrative Law Judge Paul

I'm the presiding examiner that was

is Administrative Law Judge Maria E. Villa.

procedural status conference.

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Staff of the Department of Public 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Cape Vincent? Andrew Davis. Service?

Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013

Anthony Belsito and

Department of Environmental Conservation. A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you.

Any other organizations that would Okay. Very good.

like to make an appearance?

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Ethics Group? organization?

Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013 A.L.J. AGRESTA: Thank you.

Anybody else for any other

There's -- the main agenda

everyone should be very polite and speak only one 800.523.7887

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1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stab at that. at a time.

Case 12-F-0410 - 12-09-2013

I guess it could be viewed as two --

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Now the leases that you

A.L.J. AGRESTA: Okay.

So the people in the

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in that event we wouldn't have a new applicant.

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in the course of that dialog, it was recommended 800.523.7887

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not continuing to do.

Associated Reporters Int'l., Inc.

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Now I want to address my

It expresses doubt that

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