An interview with John Holloway

Shift magazine interview John Holloway, author of Crack Capitalism and Change the World Without Taking Power on the ! riots, anti"austerity stuggles, the #ra$ spring and more% &riginally pu$lished in Septem$er '())%

*ou write in the tradition of autonomist +ar,ist thought, locating the anti"capitalist struggle at the level of every day life% How were these ideas developed- Starting with a $rief outline of the state derivation de$ate, what was this a reaction against- .or anyone who is unfamiliar with your writing, can you e,plain how these ideas were developed through your work with /Common Sense0 and later /Change the World Without Taking Power0 and /Crack Capitalism0-

*es, 1 think that we have to start from the everyday nature of anti"capitalist struggle, to see that resistance to capitalism is an integral part of living in capitalist society% 1f we can0t do that, then the struggle against capitalism $ecomes inevita$ly elitist, and self"defeating% This statement may seem a long way from the state derivation de$ate of the )23(s, $ut 1 don0t think it is% The state derivation de$ate, which arose in West 4ermany at the end of the )25(s and which Sol Picciotto and 1 introduced to 6nglish" speaking discussion in our $ook /State and Capital0 7)2389, argued that the $est way of understanding the capitalist nature of the state is to see it as a particular form of the capital relation, the relation $etween capital and la$our% 1n other words, in the same way as +ar, derived the different forms of capitalist social relations 7money, capital, interest and so on9 from the more fundamental forms 7ultimately, 1 would now say, from the dual character of la$our in capitalist society9, so it was necessary to complement that process $y deriving the e,istence of the state as a particular form of social relations from the more fundamental forms of capitalist social relations%

The important thing is that this locates the capitalist nature of the state not in what the state does 7its functions9 $ut in its very e,istence as a social form distinct from other social forms% 1t is its particularisation that constitutes the state as capitalist% This is o$vious in a way: it is the very fact that the state 7$y its very e,istence9 takes the communal away from us and hands it to paid functionaries that makes the state oppressive and alien, irrespective of what it actually does% .rom this it follows, 1 think, that it makes no sense at all to think of changing society through the state% This seems an o$vious conclusion, $ut at the time no$ody actually said it, as far as 1

remem$er, and some people who had followed the de$ate then seemed surprised when 1 made the point e,plicitly in /Change the World0%

.or me the important step on from the state derivation de$ate was to argue that form has to $e understood as form"process, as a process of forming social relations, a process of channelling them into patterns compati$le with the reproduction of capitalist social relations% Thus the state is a constant process of statification, money is a process of monetisation, a$stract la$our is a process of a$straction of human activity, and so on% #ll these categories are conceptualisations of an active struggle that is taking place all the time, an active struggle that permeates the lives of all of us% Thus, to say that the state is a form of capitalist social relations, and to understand form as a process of forming, leads directly to seeing everyday life as an active struggle $etween this process of forming and a resistance that says ;no, we refuse, we will go in a different direction, do things in a different way<% 6veryday life, then, is a constant moving in"against"and"$eyond capital% 7The article which makes the $asic step in the argument from form to form"process was a paper called ;The State and 6veryday Struggle<, which 1 wrote in )232 $ut which wasn0t pu$lished in 6nglish until )22), when it was included in Simon Clarke0s $ook on the /State =e$ate0%9

There were of course other steps along the way, especially the >ondon"6din$urgh Weekend ?eturn 4roup0s /1n and #gainst the State0, where working with Jeannette +itchell, Cynthia Cock$urn and others really pushed me into a different way of thinking a$out writing, and then the e,perience of the 6din$urgh @ournal /Common Sense0 7with ?ichard 4unn and Werner Aonefeld as driving force9 and the later $ooks on /&pen +ar,ism0 7pu$lished $y Pluto in )22' and )22B9%

1 moved to +e,ico in )22) and then came the Capatista uprising of ) January )22D, with their call to make the world anew without taking power, and this created such a stimulating new conte,t for thinking and talking a$out these ideas, constantly animated $y discussion with friends, colleagues and students here% .rom this flowed /Change the World Without Taking Power0 and all the discussion that that stirred up, which $rought me into touch with lots and lots of e,citing groups all over the place% #nd the constant Euestion of ;what do we do- What do we do when the world around us is falling apart-< F which led to /Crack Capitalism0%

6lsewhere in this issue we are taking a critical look at the organizational forms of the anti"glo$alisation movement and asking, as we enter this new round of struggle, what lessons can $e learnt- !eeping with this comparative perspective, how in your view can analysis of the state of glo$al relations of capital 7crisis9 and class contri$ute to

our understanding of how current struggles differ from those of the anti"glo$alisation movement- #re there practical, organizational implications- What, in the arguments made in your previous work, must $e kept and are there areas of the analysis that reEuire further development in response to currentGchanging conditions-

1 see the =ays of ?age proclaimed $y the various #ra$ movements from the start of the year as announcing a new phase of struggleGlife in"against"and"$eyond capital F heralded $y the Capatistas0 .estival of ?ighteous ?age 7=igna ?a$ia F 1 tend to translate it as ?ighteous ?age under the influence of >inton !wesi Johnson9 a couple of years ago% The reproduction of capital in the present crisis can $e achieved only through a vicious and pro$a$ly prolonged attack on the way in which we live, work, play and relate to one another% Capital can survive only $y transforming human life on earth, pro$a$ly with the medium"term conseEuence that it makes that life 7and its own e,istence9 impossi$le% The great capitalist attack 7what the Capatistas call the .ourth World War, or what is often referred to as neo"li$eralism, $ut it is important to see that it flows from the logic of capital, not from the policy options of governments9 is already doing enormous damage%

The very idea of $eing human, of wanting to $e more than a thing, $ecomes insepara$le from rage against the rule of money, rage against that which is destroying humanity% 1n a world of mass destruction, humanity rages, rationality rages, dignity rages% +ore and more, we live in a world of rage, $ut not all that rages is rational, or dignified, or points the way to a future for humanity% Perhaps the Euestion for us 7especially after the riots in 6ngland9 is how we take our place within that tidal wave of rage, whether and how we can point it 7or $its of it9 in directions that open up a future for humans 7and indeed other forms of life9% This is not @ust a Euestion of writing $ooks or answering interview Euestions $ut of developing practices that point against"and"$eyond capital% Hope lies in the fact that millions and millions of people are already doing that F cracking capitalism% 10ve @ust read a paper $y !olya #$ramsky that is circulating, where he argues that the choice that confronts us now is $etween dignified and undignified rage: 1 think that is a$solutely right%

*ou talk a$out living /in, against and $eyond0 the dynamics of capitalism, in a constant struggle to live a meaningful life against the enforced meaninglessness of capitalist work, or a$stract la$our% However, when we push away from capital we enter into insecure and uncharted territory% To free ourselves of the limits of work, or to refuse to toe the line, is that not a rather privileged move-

1t might $e a privileged move F in many cases it is F $ut 1 don0t think we should dismiss privilege so easily% Privilege may $e a responsi$ility% 1f some of us live in circumstances where it is easier for us to diso$ey than it is for others, it would $e a$surd to argue that therefore we should o$ey, su$mit ourselves to the disciplines of capitalist la$our%

Aut in fact it is not 7or not @ust9 like that% .or most people, $eing freed from la$our is not a matter of choice, $ut a result of $eing pushed out% To $e unemployed or precariously employed is not generally a conscious option, $ut the Euestion is then what we do with that and how we see it% People who are pushed out of the capitalist system of social cohesion are generally forced to develop other forms of social support, other ways of living% 1n spite of all the difficulties, these may $e em$ryonic forms of a different society and the real, material $ases of anti"capitalist revolt% The more radical piEuetero groups in #rgentina, for e,ample, turned from campaigning for more employment 7;the right to work<H9 to fighting for creating meaningful forms of activity 7doing9 outside capitalist la$our 7most clearly articulated $y the +T= Solano9% #nd it is the creation of structures of mutual support $y the e,cluded, particularly in the cities, that has provided the material $asis for most of the important anti"capitalist revolts in recent years 7in >atin #merica and elsewhere9%

To us, it seems like the everyday instances of antagonism that you descri$e in your work, the girl reading the $ook in the park instead of going to work, are rather small victories% Considering the widespread resistance to a$stract la$our that you descri$e, and that we are currently e,periencing with the increased militancy of workers and students, does your focus on these individual actions not lack am$ition-

Iot at all% The important thing is the lines of continuity, the lines of potential, the trails of gunpowder, that lead from the girl in the park to the )Bth June in Syntagma SEuare or the Capatista uprising% 1f we do not see and nourish those lines of continuity, we lock ourselves into a ghetto of despair%

We are finding it difficult to conceptualise how this widespread everyday resistance to a$stract la$our, the /scream0, can manifest as anything more than a form of moral or ethical lifestylism- Without a strategy for collective action is your argument not at risk of, at $est, $eing interpreted as a form of lifestyle politics and at worse leading us into a false sense of camaraderie or community $ased on an unarticulated and a$stract notion of re@ection-

1 don0t understand% 1s the revolt in 4reece not a scream, or the Capatistas0 J*a $astaH, or the ;Eue se vayan todos< 7editor0s note: ;all of them must go<9 in #rgentina, or the occupation of the sEuares $y the indignados in Spain, or indeed the ?ussian revolution, or any revolt that you care to mention- #nd where did all those massive social screams originate if not in the daily unperceived struggles and discontents of thousands and thousands of people- #nd how can we understand the links if not $y focusing on the lines of continuity- The point of talking a$out cracks rather than autonomies is that cracks move, often unpredicta$ly and at lightning speed%

The overlap in values $etween the ! Coalition government0s discourse of community empowerment under the Aig Society initiative and anarchist, autonomist politics 7see Percy0s article in issue )' of Shift9 is a good e,ample of how our actions and /alternatives0 can $e incorporated $y the state% How can the ;against and $eyond< of your notion of ;in and against and $eyond< $e emphasized $y those involved in community organizing in this political climate- How does it translate into practical action as we fight cuts in state services with alternative visions of social provision-

The state is the movement of the incorporation of alternatives F that is what it means to talk of the state as a form of capital% How can we resist this process- Pro$a$ly only $y going in the opposite direction, $y communising% To think of capital as a form of social relations is to say that power is not a Euestion of who"whom 7>enin0s $rilliantly dreadful formulation9 $ut of how% Capital is a how, a way of doing things, and the only way we can fight it is $y confronting it with different hows% &ur hows are the movement of communising, a coming together and determining from the $ottom up, which clashes as it moves with the falsehood of community empowerment% #ny process of determining from $elow will Euickly come into conflict with property and money, whereas community empowerment promoted from a$ove is premised upon respect for those forms which make community empowerment impossi$le%

There are already many attempts to translate this sort of idea into practical action against the cuts% 1 think the important thing is to show in practice what the alternatives mean% #s far as possi$le, we should not defend ourselves in their terms $ut assert clearly what we are 7often already9 doing% 1n education, for e,ample, many of us already take as a starting point the view that the only education that makes sense is one that points towards a future for humanity, and therefore aims at the destruction of capitalism% Sometimes we feel afraid to state what is pro$a$ly o$vious to most people, $ut often it is important to state the o$vious% The $est defence is usually attack: attack the schools, attack the universities, attack the hospitals%

With regards to the latter point, how do you think this analysis applies to the recent /riots0 that were sparked $y the shooting of +ark =uggan% These were clearly a reaction to state oppression and the e,clusion of communities from capitalist wealth, $ut there were argua$ly regressive elements to many of the actions that were taken% Whilst these actions can $e understood as antagonistic to the stranglehold of capitalism over our lives and cities, can we understand last weeks riots as part of a progressive, anti"capitalist struggle-

What the 6nglish riots make clear is the terri$le danger of a world to which rage is more and more clearly central% 1t is only through rage 7the scream9 that social change can come a$out, $ut rage is terri$ly dangerous% 1t can flow very easily against us, into terri$ly destructive forms% &n the one hand, 1 re@oice in the e,plosion of anger and the looting of the looters, on the other hand the riots make clear the destructive potential of social anger% 1 think !olya #$ramsky is right in pointing to the fact that our opportunities for creating a $etter world may $e momentary% There is a sense in which the more negative aspects of the riots are an e,pression of the failure of the Aritish students to do what the Chilean students are now doing, @ust as it might $e argued that the appalling violence in +e,ico today is due in part to our failure to seize the opportunity opened up $y the Capatista revolt% The war we must win is the war of rage and 1 suspect that the only way we can do it is through the nitty"gritty movement of communising% Crack capitalism, in other words%

1n a recent interview with Kariant, the interviewers picked up on your critiEue of political engagement with democratization, if the latter e,ists without a commitment to the a$olition of ;money"capital"state"a$stract la$our<% *et democratization is at the heart of the radical political ruptures we are currently witnessing F with a crisis of state power 7dictators toppled in the +iddle 6ast and Iorth #frica and li$eral democracy in crisis in 4reece and Spain9 coupled with e,periments in participatory democracy within the political movements that have pushed this crisis% .or us, these are e,citing as they have a mass element that has $een missing in the political movements of our lifetime% =o you think the ?eal =emocracy movement in Spain, or the democratization movements of the #ra$ World contain this element of re@ection of ;money"capital"state"a$stract la$our<- What can we take from these e,periences in developing the radical politics you have in mind-

1 agree entirely that these are very e,citing movements% ?eal =emocracy is a threshold"concept 7as indeed are all the great concepts of struggle9% 1t opens a door and invites us to go further% We can refuse the invitation and stay where we are, with the empty a$straction of democracy, as no dou$t some will, or we can accept it 7as will many others9 and think what real democracy could look like% #nd there we see

that the e,periences of Tahrir SEuate, of the Puerta del Sol and Syntagma and so many other sEuares in Spain and 4reece point us clearly in the direction of a collective process of determining from $elow, a process of communising% #nd this movement of communising $ecomes immediately an attack on determination $y the rich, $y capital, $y money% 1nevita$ly, 1 think, it clashes with the rule of money" capital"state"a$stract la$our% 1 assume that people who prefer to talk @ust of democracy 7Hardt and Iegri, for e,ample9 realise this, $ut prefer to let the movement itself discover that money stands in the way of real democracy% 1 can see an argument for that, $ut 1 see the process of theoretical reflection as part of the struggle to go as far as we can along the road that has $een opened% Part of the struggle against re"integration of the movement is to say clearly that real democracy is and must $e a frontal assault on the power of money%

The great power of the movement in 4reece is that it makes as clear as clear could $e the frontal opposition $etween ?eal =emocracy and the Power of +oney% *ou0ve pro$a$ly seen the video showing, on the one hand, the thousands of protesters in Syntagma SEuare, and on the other, @ust a few metres away, the democratically elected representatives of the state grovelling to the Power of +oney% =ignified rage, righteous rage, $right light of hope in a dark night%

John Holloway is a Professor in the 1nstituto de Ciencias Sociales y Humanidades of the Aenemerita niversidad #utonoma de Pue$la in +e,ico% He is the author of Change the World Without Taking Power 7Pluto Press, Lrd edition, '()(9, and Crack Capitalism 7Pluto Press, '()(9

https:GGli$com%orgGli$raryGinterview"@ohn"holloway