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Validity of Traditionalist Orders

Validity of Traditionalist Orders

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Published by David Bawden
Recently I have been asked to review the evidence on the validity of Traditionalist Orders. And here is my reply.
Recently I have been asked to review the evidence on the validity of Traditionalist Orders. And here is my reply.

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Published by: David Bawden on Mar 05, 2014
Copyright:Attribution Non-commercial


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Validity of Traditionalist Orders
In this age of the Great Apostasy, the Sacraments have been attacked and replaced by the Conciliar Church of Antipope aul VI !ith ne! and invalid Sacraments" #urther there is a conspiracy to destroy the Church that has been documented over the past century a and a half"
 As a priest affiliated !ith the Society of Saint ius % said many years ago& 'Once they get rid of all of the valid priests they !ill give us the (ass back") And this has happened in the indults from *ome under Antipopes +ohn aul II and enedict %VI" It is also probable that the enemies of the Church have attempted to infiltrate the Traditionalist (ovement in order to attempt to destroy -oly Orders" .e kno!, of course, that the Catholic Church !ill not fail" .e have +esus Christ/s !ord on this" 0lse!here in several places .e have proven that the Traditionalist (ovement is not the Catholic Church" One place is 12 3ears that Changed the Catholic Church4 .e have also decreed in 5667 that Traditionalist Orders are not legitimate in response to a re8uest to declare them both illegitimate and invalid" At that time .e did not address the issue of validity, but are doing so briefly no!" There are t!o basic lines in Traditionalism, the 9efebvre line and the Thuc line" oth lines have been 8uestioned as invalid by some in the !orld, usually by other Traditionalists" Some in the Society of Saint ius % 8uestion the validity of the Thuc line and some of the early day Thuc ishops and their supporters 8uestioned the validity of the 9efebvre line" .ith the union of the Thuc and 9efebvre lines by the consecrations of ishops :olan and Sanborn, 9efebvre priests, by ishops ivarunas and (c;enna, Thuc ishops, this 8uestioning has gone a!ay" Some in the home<alone movement of Traditionalism 8uestion the validity of all Traditionalists priests and bishops"
Table of Contents
Archbishop 9efebvre/s Orders"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""5asis of the Accusation"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""5Can a (ason -ave Valid Intention4"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=9et >s resume 9ienart -ad a erverse Intention""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""=Can a (an e Consecrated a ishop .ithout eing reviously Ordained a riest4"""""""""""""""""=Conclusion"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""29efebvre and the ?ovus Ordo"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""2 ?e! *ite of Ordination"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""1Validity of the Consecrations"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7 by ishop eter (artin ?go :ihn Thuc""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7almar de Troya""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""7-ave (iter, .ill Travel""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""@$B$ Consecrations"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""@Thuc/s Senility"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""B ?ovus Ordo"""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""""B
 #or more information see ;ey :ocuments to >nderstanding the Great Apostasy for some of this documentation"
Archbishop 9efebvre/s Orders
asis of the Accusation
The follo!ing !as 8uoted in a $@7 article&The book 9Infallibilite ontificale by (ar8uis de la #ran8uerie !as referred to  by Chiesa Viva and reports&orn 9ille, #rance#ebruary @,$BB2Ordained+une 5,$6@0ntered (asonic lodge in Cambrai$$5ecame 'Visitor) in (asonry D $B
 degree$$Arrived at =6
 degree$52Consecrated bishop:ecember B, $5B#rom the (ontreal lecture& 'The -oly #ather !as educated in a (odernist environment """ and, therefore, one cannot be surprised that, in the, Council, the ope did not react as Saint ius % !ould have reacted, as ope ius I% !ould have reacted, or a 9eo %III"'As a conse8uence, an atmosphere prevailed at the Council of a kind that there !as no resistance against this (odernist influence !hich eEercised itself by a group of cardinals, in  particular !hich !as commanded, !hich !as directed in some sort by Cardinal 9ienart """" ?o!, t!o months ago, in *ome, the traditionalist periodical FChiesa VivaF H 9iving Church  published < I have seen it in *ome !ith my o!n eyes < on the back side of the cover, the  photograph of Cardinal 9ienart !ith all his (asonic paraphernalia, the day of the date of his inscription in (asonry """, then the date at !hich he rose to the 56th, then to the =6th degree of (asonry, attached to this lodge, to that lodger<at this place, at that place" < (ean!hile, about t!o or three months after this publication !as made, I heard nothing about any reaction, or any contradiction" ?o!, unfortunately, I must say to you that this Cardinal 9ienart is my bishop, it is he !ho ordained me a priest, it is he !ho consecrated me a bishop" I cannot help it """ #ortunately, the orders are valid J but, in spite of it, it !as very painful for me to be informed of it") K(arcel 9efebvre in (ontreal, Canada, on (ay 5@, $@7, reported by :r" -ugo (aria ;ellnerLIf one traces all of the claims that Achille Cardinal 9ienart !as a (ason back to their original source, they call come back to this article" #irst is should be noted that 9efebvre got the facts !rong" There !as no picture of 9ienart" This is understandable, !hen you put 9efevre/s trip into conteEt" On (ay 55
 Archbishop 9efebvre !as in Stafford, TeEas for confirmations to  be held that day and the neEt day" I !as confirmed on (ay 55
, $@7 by Archbishop 9efebvre" 0arlier that day he had a meeting !ith three (eEican priests, #athers SaenM, Carmona and Namora" They came to discuss the vacancy of the papacy and the election of a ope, hoping to enlist 9efebvre/s assistance in the election of a ope" On (onday, (ay 52
 Gary Giuffre, his father and brother and *on ;eller confronted 9efebvre !ith pornography found in the apartment of the SS% priest serving there" They also confronted him !ith other evidence of serious  breaches of morals" 9efebvre never took action against this priest, retaining and promoting him !ithin the SS% until $B2" One can see that 9efebvre had a rough !eek, !hich accounts for his not remembering the article correctly" It should be noted that 9efebvre lost this chapel and group, because of his inaction" -e may have been a!are of this at the time of the speech" Since this is the only evidence against 9ienart, it is insufficient to prove the case"5
Can a (ason -ave Valid Intention4
.e kno! that high level (asons are dedicated to the destruction of the Catholic Church" And !hat !ould better cause destruction than infiltrated the episcopate and !ithholding intention in the reception of one/s 0piscopal Consecration thus invalidating all of the Sacraments he !ould confer as a ishop4 The only thing !orse is infecting people !ith heresy" One can make an argument that a (ason might have a perverse and invalid intention"
9et >s resume 9ienart -ad a erverse Intention
On the presumption that 9ienart !ithheld intention in ordaining (arcel 9efebvre as a  priest, then he !ould not have been validly ordained" -o!ever, !hat !ould happen in the case of his consecration as ishop4Catholic -ierarchy reports the follo!ing& rincipal Consecrator& Achille Cardinal 9inart P ishop of 9ille rincipal Co<Consecrators& ishop Alfred<+ean<#QliE Ancel, Ist" del rado P Titular ishop of (yrina ishop +ean<aptiste Victor #auret, C"S"Sp" P Titular ishop of AraEa9efebvre !as consecrated by three bishops" ope ius %II had recently ordered the co<consecrators to intend to consecrate along !ith the consecrator" Thus all three have the intention to confer the Sacrament" If 9ienart !ithheld intention, the other t!o ishops !ould supply"
Can a (an e Consecrated a ishop .ithout eing reviously Ordained a riest4
This is the main point of those !ho hold against 9efebvre/s validity" They base their opinion on this from the Summa& 'One Order does not depend on the preceding Order as regards the validity of the sacrament" ut the 0piscopal po!er depends on the priestly po!er, since no one can receive the 0piscopal po!er unless he have previously the priestly po!er") KSaint Thomas in the Summa Supplement R 26 A1L -o!ever, this is only an opinion of Saint Thomas A8uinas, !hich must be interpreted in the light of the facts&#rom *elation of the riesthood to the 0piscopate& '-istory establishes !ith a sufficient degree of certainty that several opes and bishops of the early Church !ere deacons and not yet priests at the moment of their election, e"g" ope 9iberius !as a deacon !hen he !as made pope, and so !as Gregorius (agnus Antonius Kmentioned  by St" AugustineL !as lector !hen he !as made bishop" 0piscopal ordination !as given to them !ithout previous ordination to the priesthood, and their ordination !as considered valid so that by one ordination they ac8uired the priesthood and episcopacy" The rite of the episcopal consecration used on such occasion did not sho! any variation =

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