INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO MARCH 15, 2014 RUSH TRANSCRIPT: Jimmy Creech Click here for

video Click here for audio [REV. DR. C. WELTON GADDY, HOST]: Jimmy Creech has done passionate work for an inclusive United Methodist Church that didnt begin with officiating at that same-sex union in 1998 that cost him his status as a minister and it certainly didnt end with that event, either. Not by a long shot. As co-founder of the organization Faith in America, Jimmy has continued his activism, traveling the country and speaking about the urgency of excluding no one from the message of a loving and welcoming God. After years of seeming intransigence on the issue of recognizing same-sex couples, the United Methodist Church has just seen one bishop take a decisive step in a positive direction, and the one person I wanted to talk to immediately was Jimmy Creech and thankfully, he found time to be with us today. Jimmy, welcome back to State of Belief Radio! [REV. JIMMY CREECH, GUEST]: Thank you, Welton, its wonderful to be back with you.

[WG]: For listeners who may not have heard about Bishop Martin McLees action, I wish you would just summarize what the excitement about it is. [JC]: Well, the Rev. Dr. Thomas Ogletree celebrated a wedding for his son and his sons spouse - it was a same-gender wedding - back in the fall of last year. And charges were brought against Dr. Ogletree, and there was actually a trial scheduled for earlier this year. Bishop Ives was presiding for the trial, and he decided to postpone the trial with the hope that there could be, what is called in our tradition, a just resolution between the Church and Dr. Ogletree, rather than there being a trial. This week it was announced that a just resolution had been reached between the Church - the United Methodist Church - and Dr. Ogletree, and so there would be no trial; and following that was the announcement by Dr. Ogletrees bishop, Bishop Martin McLee, that he would, from now on, not put clergy on trial for conducting same-gender weddings - even though there is a law within the United Methodist Church prohibiting clergy from doing so.

It was a momentous and historic decision - I think a courageous and prophetic one on the part of Bishop McLee. The just resolution itself was wonderful, because it allowed a process to move forward without a clergyperson being put on trial, and the potential of having his credentials taken from him. [WG]: Jimmy, how, then, does this impact other pending court trials? [JC]: It really does not - not officially. It only applies to this particular trial. As far as Im aware, there are no outstanding charges against other clergy for conducting same-gender weddings. Now, there may be a process, or there may be something in the process, where a charge might be brought. But at this point, I dont think theres an outstanding charge; so it doesnt impact any judicial process thats in place. There are clergy who have conducted, very publicly, same-gender weddings, and are likely to have charges brought against them. But those clergy are in other annual conferences around the country, and the bishops who preside over those annual conferences may not follow Bishop McLees example. [WG]: Yeah, thats what I was going to ask you, actually, whether or not theres any inevitability that other bishops will follow Bishop McLee, or whether, in some instances, it will harden someone elses attitude and theyll say, Well, were sure gonna keep doing this. [JC]: Well, I think thats accurate, actually. I think the Council of Bishops within the United Methodist Church are divided on whether they are supportive of clergy who conduct same-gender marriages or not, and so I think there are a number of bishops who are really becoming emboldened to take a stand against putting clergy on trial. And so there will be some who will very strongly support Bishop McLee; there will be others who strongly disagree. In the South, the Southeastern part of the United States, theres a strong opposition to samegender marriage and to, really, including same-gender loving people. In the Northeast and on the West Coast, theres a much greater openness to including same-gender loving people, and so there is a regional factor here. [WG]: You would be interested to know, if you didnt hear it, last week on State of Belief Radio I interviewed Bishop Minerva Carcano in Los Angeles [JC]: Oh, wonderful! [WG]: Shes invited the Rev. Frank Schaefer out for a visit - who was convicted in Pennsylvania - to come to California. It was a wonderful interview, and I mean why cant you reproduce her a whole bunch of times? [JC]: If we could, I would certainly do whatever I could to do that. But there are some others. She is one; there are some others who are beginning to take a strong stand. I think that there are bishops who recognize that a great deal of

harm is being done to Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people by the policies and actions of the United Methodist Church - particularly when pastors are put on trial for affirming and supporting the loving relationships of samegender couples. And these bishops are no longer going to, sort of, stay hidden in the closet of the Council; theyre going to take a step out. And theyre going to be leaders, and theyre going to do things like Bishop McLee has done. Bishop McLee has essentially opened up a process of dialogue and communication and conversation that a trial cuts off. A trial doesnt produce anything except punishment, and theres no resolution in a trial. Its simply an act of punishment, with Frank Schaefer being the prime example, just most recently. And so I hope that Bishop McLees example will lead others who are not, perhaps, ready to step out and take a stand against the policies of the Church, but are willing to be in dialogue. I hope that there are some bishops who will follow that example. [WG]: Jimmy, let me be personal for a moment. Youve been fighting this battle for so many years; how does it make you feel to see, finally, a glimmer of hope? [JC]: Well, its exciting! I cant tell you - you know, I just recently realized how long it has been since my first trial, and that was in 1998. Its been 16 years! Its hard to believe. And what I sometimes think: Why has it taken so long for someone to take the position that Bishop McLee has taken? I mean, the rule against clergy conducting same-gender weddings is no more wrong today than it was when it was passed in 1996; its always been wrong, its always been a harmful and destructive law. Why has it taken so long? On the other hand, I celebrate. I celebrate the fact that finally its happening; and I think its happening now because we have, like, I think 17 states now where marriage equality is either provided or recognized. And same-gender couples are stepping forward, and theyre very publicly wanting to join themselves together in marriage, and they want to do it in the context of their faith and their religious community. And clergy can no longer say, Oh, I just cant do a union ceremony for you. This is something else: this is a legal marriage; legal recognition; a legal commitment. And clergy are being moved, now, to say, This is a part of what Im called to do. This is a part of my ministry. And they cant turn their back on it any longer. And I think the bishops are beginning to recognize that. And the bishops themselves, like Bishop Talbert, who has conducted a same-gender, actually, union, it was not a legal marriage but a same-gender union - which I consider equivalent to a legal marriage - but he stepped out, and he took that leadership. I think the time has changed, the context has changed, and the reason it has is because of the courage of Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people who have been willing to let their families, their friends, their colleagues, their church members know who they are, and understand the integrity and dignity of the life they live together as singles and in married and committed couples.

[WG]: Jimmy, do you remember the very first time the issue of homosexuality came up in your ministry? [JC]: Specifically, I do, yes. It was a Wednesday morning in 1984 - I think it was in May. It was just after news had been published in the local newspaper that the United Methodist Church had passed a new rule saying that - this is the language of the Church - Self-avowed, practicing homosexuals could not be ordained or appointed within the United Methodist Church from now on. And a member of the congregation Id known for three years came in to me with great agony, crying and pouring his heart out to me, to tell me he was leaving the Church. He was in his late 40s; hed been a member of the Methodist Church - hed joined it when it was still the Methodist Church, and later became the United Methodist Church - he had been a member all of his life, and he was leaving. And he came out to me at that point - he was the first person who ever self-identified as Gay to me - and began to tell me what it was like to be Gay in the Church and in society, and how harmful and painful it was to be told by his Church that he, because of whom he loved, was less moral, less human, had less integrity and dignity than those who are not Gay. And it was because of the integrity and dignity that he had, and I knew him to have for over three years, that compelled me to reexamine my own beliefs about homosexuality, and then study the Churchs position, and then begin to challenge it. He made the difference in my life, and I think other Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people who have the courage to let themselves be known often make the same difference in the lives of others. [WG]: I really do thank you for sharing that. Now how would you contrast that moment with the present one? [JC]: Well, I wish One of the other things that Ill say is that I refer to my friend as Adam. Its not He was the first man to come out to me as a Gay man; its not his real name. But he said to me - I began to get into some conflicts and have some controversy around my ministry a few years later because of my advocacy, very public advocacy for Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people- and he called me up one day to apologize for coming out to me, because he knew that that was the moment that had changed my life and my ministry, and I became a strong advocate. And he pledged to me that when he could retire - he was a professional person, an educator, he could not come out publicly - he said, When I retire, Im going to become a Gay rights advocate, because I want to make this world better and safer for my sisters and brothers who are Lesbian and Gay. He died a year later of a heart attack, and I really wish Adam could be here to know about marriage equality being a reality around this country; that the Supreme Court has ruled that same-gender couples cannot be denied their rights; that federal courts around the country are saying constitutional

amendments denying same-gender couples their rights are unconstitutional. I just wish Adam could be here. Its a new day; its a different day. Theres still much more work to be done, but theres certainly reasons to feel confident that one day, Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people will be fully accepted not only in the Church, but in society. Affirmed and celebrated as the people of integrity and dignity that they are. [WG]: Do you have any sense whats next for the Methodist Church on this issue? [JC]: Well, I think more and more clergy are going to, very publicly, conduct weddings for same-gender couples. Its going to put the Church - its going to create a situation where the Church is going to have to decide, the leadership of the Church, are we just going to destroy ourselves by putting everybody on trial and creating really bad public relations? I mean, this really makes the Church look bad. Or are we going to recognize that there are differences of opinion, and that people of conscience have to act on their conscience; they cannot be coerced by fear and the threat of trial. I think the Church is going to find some way to accommodate clergy who act on conscience, recognizing the integrity and dignity of same-gender couples when they conduct their weddings. Theres other negative language in our tradition that does harm to Gay and Lesbian people, but marriage affirms that relationship as a sacred and holy relationship between two people. And for clergy to be able to celebrate that and affirm it is a way of overcoming and setting aside all this negative tradition that we have. I dont think our General Conference is going to change these laws very soon; we have a very difficult challenge to do that. But I do believe that the leadership is going to have to find a way to say, Okay, were just not going to put people on trial for being good pastors, for having conscience, for doing what they belief truly is their call to ministry and what is consistent with the Gospel. I think thats going to have to happen. [WG]: Jimmy, you know, certainly, that your message has been a part of whats helped change things, and Im going to ask you a question that I hope nobody ever asks me. Youve had a lifetime to distill your message of faithful inclusivity, and I only really have about a minute and a half to two minutes left. But would you take those minutes and tell us, why this struggle has been so important to you, and what the essence of your message is? [JC]: Well, when Adam came out to me - Ive always understood my call to ministry to be to help people overcome whatever damages them spiritually, whatever causes them to doubt Gods love for them, to be unable to love another and to, really, be unable to love themselves. I discovered when Adam came out to me, that my Church was causing Lesbian and Gay people to, really, hate God - or to believe that God hates them; to hate themselves, and to know that they could never live in a loving relationship and be open about it. And so this was contrary to what I understood my call to ministry to be. So I didnt feel I had a

choice; I felt compelled to begin to challenge my Churchs teachings, and also the social and cultural attitudes toward Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people, because it was my call to ministry; it was what I understood I was to do as a minister. It was to help Lesbian, Gay, Bisexual and Transgender people know that they are loved by God, that they should love themselves and hold themselves in high esteem, and they have the freedom - and not only the freedom, but the gift - to be able to love another, and to live in a committed relationship, if they find someone and so choose to do that. That has been my understanding of ministry, and its been what Ive been passionate about doing all these years. [WG]: Jimmy Creech is a pioneer of inclusivity in the United Methodist Church. Having paid the price of his ordained ministry for his convictions, since 1999 he has led the organization Faith in America, and speaks widely on issues of faith and justice. You would do well to read Jimmys autobiographical book, titled Adam's Gift hes just talked about who Adam was - Adams Gift: A Memoir of a Pastor's Calling to Defy the Church's Persecution of Lesbians and Gays. Jimmy Creech, you were able to see homosexual persons as a gift to be nurtured and treasured long before most other religious leaders, and we treasure your continued ministry. I thank you, as I do always, for you coming to State of Belief Radio, and sharing your thoughts and message with us. Thank you, Jimmy. [JC]: Thank you so much, Welton. Blessings on you.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America the most religiously diverse country in the world while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy offers listeners critical analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty. Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the firm belief that the best way to secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong wrong for America and bad for religion. Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and field reports from

around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world. Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana. In addition to being a prolific writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America, while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for sectarian purposes. Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News, and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on NBC affiliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets. While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists. Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on the White House task force on the reform of the Office of Faith Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from 1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the Christian Life Commission from 1973-77. Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University in Jackson,

Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville, Kentucky.