Rdar Vol Iibook21

The "For Of f i c i a l , U s e Onl y" p r o t e c t i v e ma r ki ngs
u s e d h e r e i n a r e c a n c e l e d a t , s u c h t 2me a s t h e
i n f o r ma t i o n i s r e q u i r e d f o r u s e i n j u d i c i a l pr o-
c e e d i n g s E 5 E P T f o r t h o s e pa ge s s p e c i f i c a l l y
i d e n t i f i e d i n t h e Ta b l e of Co n t e n t s (Vol ume 11,
Book 1) as c o n t a i n i n g i n f o r ma t i o n e x c l u d e d f r om
a u t o ma t i c t e r mi n a t i o n ( p a r a 13, AR 340- 16) .
REPORTOFTHE DEPARTMENTOFTHEARMY REVIEW
OF THE
PRELI MI NARY INVESTIGATIONS INTOTHEM Y LAII NCIDENT(U)
VOLUME II
TESTIMONY
BOOK 21
MCKENNEY ASKEW DUFF
MERCER BRADDOCK ESTERLI NG
MORENO BROOKS F I E L DS , A.
SHI PLEY CARTER, D. GUTHRI E
14 MARCH 1970
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
SUMMARY OF TESTIMONY
WITNESS: MCKENNY, W i l l i e J.
DATE OF TESTIMONY : 5 Febr uar y 1970
PLACE OF TESTIMONY: Pent agon
WITNESS SUSPECTED OF: N/A
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Machi negunner, Second
Squad, Second Pl a t oon, B/4/3.
1. PRIOR T RAI NI NG I N THE RULES OF LAND WARFARE.
The wi t n e s s coul d r e c a l l no t r a i n i n g i n t h e l e g a l i t y
o f o r d e r s ( pg. 2 ) .
2. PREOPERATIONAL PLANS AND BRIEFINGS.
The wi t ne s s s t a t e d h i s squad l e a d e r b r i e f e d him on
t h e ope s a t i on ( pg. 3 ) . Ther e was not hi ng i n t h e b r i e f i n g
concer ni ng t h e d e s t r u c t i o n of hoot ches o r of f oods t ocks
( pgs * 31 4)
3. THE COMBAT ASSAULT.
a . Ac t i vi t i e s on t h e 16t h.
The wi t ne s s went i n t o t h e o p e r a t i o n a l a r e a on t h e
f i r s t l i f t . The door gunner s w e r e f i r i n g t o cl ear t h e a r e a
( pgs. 5, 6 ) , al t hough t h e t r oops d i d n o t f i r e upon l a ndi ng
(pg. 6 ) . On l e a vi ng t h e l a ndi ng zone t h e t r o o p s moved on
l i n e u n t i l two mi nes were t r i p p e d , a t whi ch j unc t i on t h e
t r oops moved ar ound t o t h e l e f t of t h i s s us pe c t e d mi ne f i e l d
( pgs. 7 , 9 ) . H e r e c a l l e d t h e f i r s t p l a t o o n , a c r o s s a s ma l l
r i v e r , r e p o r t i n g t e n o r e l e ve n k i l l s ( pg. 8 ) . u n t i l t h e
mi nes were t r i p p e d and t h e c a s u a l t i e s t a ke n, t h e wi t ne s s
(MCKENNEY) 1 SUM APP T-328
f e l t t hey were t o e n t e r and s ear ch t he l a r ge v i l l a g e ,
.My Lai (1)p g 1 ) . H e r e c a l l e d t h a t t he t h i r d pl at oon
was on s e c u r i t y around t he CP (pgs. 10-12). I ns t ead of
s ear chi ng t h a t v i l l a g e , the company remained i n an a r e a
near a s m a l l v i l l a g e u n t i l l a t e r i n t he af t er noon ( pg. 12) .
He r e c a l l e d no unusual occur r ences t h a t day (pg. 1 4 ) . H e
di d hear t h a t t h e r e w a s some i nt e r r oga t i ng of VC s us pect s
( pgs. 1 4 , 1 5 ) . H e saw t h e Vietnamese i nt e r r oga t or s hook
w i r e s from a f i e l d t el ephone t o s e n s i t i v e p a r t s of t h e
s us pe c t ' s bodi es and shock t h e m i n an e f f o r t t o g e t them
t o t a l k .
hear d of
The e f f o r t was uns ucaes s f ul ( pgs. 1 4 , 15) . He
no ot he r t o r t u r e bei ng used (pg. 1 5 ) .
b. Ac t i v i t i e s on t h e 17t h.
The next morning t h e t h i r d pl at oon l e d o f f o u t
of t he def ens i ve pos i t i on, f ol l owed by t h e mor t ar pl at oon
w i t h t he commacd pos t ( pg. 1 6 ) . The wi t nes s cr os s ed t he
br i dge a f t e r t he demol l t l on men had been c a l l e d up t o check
f o r mines (pg. 1 7 ) . By t he t i m e t h e wi t nes s a r r i ve d acr os s
t he br i dge t o t he f i r s t pl at oon a r e a , most of t h e f i r i n g
had ceased, and TAYLOR had been medevacld ( pg. 17). H e
r e c a l l e d t h a t ~ i e u t e n a n t LEWIS and MUNDY t hen a r r i ve d on
a he l i c opt e r with a LWCV phot ographer who t ook a coupl e
of pi c t ur e s ( pgs. 18, 1 9 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not s e e t he
phot ographer a f t e r t h i s (pgs. 19, 20) . The wi t nes s observed
an el ement of t he second pl at oon f i r i n g a t a VC who f e l l
as i f s hot , b u t h i s body cou5d not be l ocat ed (pg. 21). The
pl at oons s p l i t up and t he wi t nes s moved wi t h h i s group down
t he c oa s t and t hen up t h e c oa s t bur ni ng a l l hoot ches and
v i l l a g e s as t hey moved back ( pgs. 22, 23) . H e observed
smoke i n t he a r e a of t he f i r s t pl at oon (pg. 24). H e coul d
r e c a l l not hi ng unusual about t h a t ni ght ( pg. 25).
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on t he 18t h and 19t h.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d moving i n t o an a r e a and
roundi ng up some Vietnamese. The t h i r d pl at oon j oi ned them
i . n. t h e v i l l a g e ( pg. 25). He r ecount ed t h a t a capt ur ed Vi et
Cong d i r e c t e d them t o a cache, though itwas empty ( pgs. 2 6 ,
30) . That ni ght t he company was a s s a ul t e d, MILUS was k i l l e d ,
and two de t a i ne e s were pi cked up {pg. 28) . One of t he s e
was beat en and f i e l d t el ephone wi r es were u t i l i z e d i n
ques t i oni ng him. Thi s was bei ng done by f i r s t pl at oon
members, ARVNIS, and i n t e r p r e t e r s (pg. 29). He r e c a l l e d
SUM APP T-328
i
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
Ser geant LI AS swi ngi ng a t t h i s pr i s one r . Capt ai n MICHLES,
r
a s w e l l as two ARVNi n t e l l i g e n c e men, were pr e s e nt
(pg. 3 0 ) .
4 . KNOWLEDGEOFANINCIDENT.
The wi t nes s had no knowledge of t h e k i l l i n g of
c i v i l i a n s (pg. 31) .
5. KNOWLEDGEOFANINVESTIGATION.
The wi t nes s had no knowledge of an i nve s t i ga t i on
from any s our ce (pg. 31) .
6. OTHER INFORMATION.
He opi ned t h a t mar i j uana was not a problem i n the
company (pg. 32) .
3 SUMAPPT-328
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
EXHIBITS
EXHI BI T -
NUMBER DESCRIPTION NOTES PAGES
1
F i t had s een l t , buQ
3
MACV Card "Nine Rul es"
di d not c a r r y it.
MACV Card "The Enemy i n
d i t coul d not
3
M-3 Your Hands"
r e c a l l .
W i t di d not re-
-
8 miscellaneous Scene Icognize.
13
t w i t d i d not r e i I
P-19 Mi scel l aneous Scene
cogni ze .
13
-
Wit dl d not re-
cogni ze.
13
Wl t ness r ecognl zea I
per sons.
13
-
2 ~ ~ i s c e l l a n e o u s l ~i t 13 Scene di d not r ecal l . 1
I 1
P-23 miscellaneous Scene l ~i t r e c a l l e d.
1 3
l W i t r e c a l l e d one
-
6 l ~ h o t oof ARVN1s l o t them.
1 4
I I
- 21 Phot o of hoot ches
W i t r e c a l l e d burnin.g
22
t o of pr i s one r s
W i t r ecogni zed.
21
1 ~ h n t nof R/ 4 / 1 CP ] w i t r ecogni zed a r e 4 22
1 w i t r ecoqni zed
-
t he 1
t o of peni ns ul a a r e a . I 23
Wi t ness pos s i bl y
Phot o of det ai nees r ecogni zed. 26
(MCKENNEY) 4 SUM APP T-328
(The he a r i ng reconvened a t 1421hour s , 5 Febr uar y
1970. )
COL WILSON: The he a r i ng w i l l come t o or de r .
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng named per sons are pr e s e nt : COL
WILSON, LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
The ne xt wi t ne s s w i l l b e M r . W i l l i e J. MCKENNEY.
(MR MCKENNEY was c a l l e d as a wi t ne s s , wa s sworn,
and t e s t i f i e d as f ol l ow: )
Pl e a s e st at eyour f u l l name, occupat i on, and
r e s i de nc e .
A. W i l l i e James MCKENNEY, occupat i on i s a ppr e nt i c e
c a r pe nt e r ; my a ddr e s s i s 20625 Nort hwest 28t h Cour t , Miami,
Fl or i da .
COL WILSON: M r . MCKENNEY, d i d you have an oppor t uni t y t o
r ead over t h e i nf or mat i on we pas s ed o u t t o you? Do you
under st and ito r have any que s t i ons ?
A. Yes, and I have no que s t i ons .
Q . Have you di s c us s s e d t h i s ope r a t i on wi t h anyone
p r i o r t o coming i n he r e ? I mean except f o r t h e l as t 24 hour s ?
A. NO, sir.
Q. Nobody from your company ha s di s c us s e d t h i s
wi t h you?
A. NO, si r.
Q.
Do you r e c a l l your assi gnment i n B/4/3 on 16
March 1968?
A. Y e s , I do.
Q. What was i t ?
A. W e were a t LZ Upt i ght .
Q. What was your dut y?
(MCKENNEY) 1 APP T-328
A. We had s e c ur i t y guard t h a t day f o r t h e CP.
Q. You w e r e i n t h e 2d Pl at oon?
A. Y e s .
Q- What squad?
A. Second squad.
Q. What w a s your job?
Machinegunner.
Was t h i s an M-60?
Y e s .
Q. Did you say second squad?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Was t h i s machinegun m art of t h e second squad o r
di d it bel ong t o a machinegun squad?
A. W e had t h e squad and we w e r e at t ached.
Q You were at t ached t o t he second squad?
A. Y e s .
\
Q Did you always work wi t h t he second squad?
A. Y e s .
Q Who wa s t h e squad l eader ?
A. Ser geant WATTS.
Q Do you recal l having r ecei ved any t r a i n i n g at
anytime, or hear d anybody gi vi ng any i ns t r uc t i ons on t h e
l e g a l i t y of or der s , i l l e g a l ver sus l e g a l or der s ?
A. No. I don' t bel i eve s o.
(MCKENNEY) 2
APP T-328
Q. Exhi bi t M-2 i s e n t i t l e d "Nine Rul es. " Thi s i s
a f a c s i mi l e of a wal l et - s i zed from MACV. Have you e ve r
seen i t ?
A. I pr obabl y s een it, b u t I d i d n ' t have one.
Q g You d i d n ' t ?
A. No.
Q How about M-3, e n t i t l e d "The Enemy i n Your Hands."
A. I never had one of t he s e e i t h e r , I d o n ' t bel i eve.
No.
Q. Were you wi t h t he br i gade i n Hawaii?
A. Y e s . I got t h e r e about 2 months bef or e t hey
moved out .
Q. I n our sequence of ques t i oni ng, w e are goi ng t o
t r y t o f ol l ow t h e pr ocedur e of as ki ng you f i r s t what you
were t o l d be f or e you went on t h e oper at i ons and t hen we
w i l l g e t i n t o what happened on t h e oper at i ons .
The fi rst t hi ng w e a r e goi ng t o be concerned
wi t h i s what i n s t r u c t i o n s you got , and what you knew bef or e
you went out . Based on t h a t , we w i l l go back t o t h e 15
March. The oper at i ons w e a r e t a l k i n g about t ook pl a c e on
15 t hrough 19 March 1968. On 15 March you were back a t
Upt i ght . Do you r e c a l l how you got t h e i nf or mat i on?
A. W e w e r e on LZ Upt i ght and t hey t o l d us w e w e r e
goi ng o u t on a bl ocki ng f or c e f o r Char l i e Company. We got
t h e i nf or mat i on a t LZ Upt i ght .
Q Who gave it t o' you?
A. The squad l e a de r .
Q. Your squad l eader ?
A. Y e s . H e comes down and pas s es it around.
Q. Was t h e r e anyt hi ng s a i d about t h e de s t r uc t i on
of v i l l a g e s ?
A. No.
Q -
Anything s a i d about t h e des t r uct i on of l i ves t ock?
A. No.
Q. How about food st ock?
A. No, j us t a bl ocki ng f or ce.
Q You were supposed t o be a bl ocki ng f or ce?
A. Y e s . I f I remember c or r e c t l y, t h a t i s what it
was.
Q.
There was not hi ng s a i d about t ha t ?
A. That ' s r i g h t , t h a t ' s a l l .
Q Was t he r e anyt hi ng s a i d about 2d Pl at oon sweeping
t h e vi l l a ge ?
A. I f I remember, when we got of f ,of t h e hel i copt er
t he r e were a couple of hootches t he r e , but t h a t was not con-
s i der ed a l ar ge vi l l a ge . We checked t hes e couple of hootches
out and by t h i s t i me, t h a t ' s when Li eut enant COCHRAN got it.
Q. Was t he r e anyt hi ng s a i d about what t h e vari ous
pl at oons of t he company w e r e supposed t o do?
A. W e l l , t h a t I don' t know. When t he squad l eader
comes out he t e l l s us what t he 2d Platoon would do and what.
h i s squad would do.
Q Was t he r e any di f f er ence i n t he mission of t h e
squads?
A. Not t h a t I r e c a l l , because I don' t know what
t h e rest of t he mi ssi ons were f o r t h e r e s t of t he pl at oons.
The squads of 2d Pl at oon would be t oget her .
Q You don' t remember anyt hi ng e l s e about what you
were t ol d? Were you t o l d how l ong you were going t o be out
t her e, o r what per i od of time t he oper at i on was going t o be?
A. He usual l y t e l l s us 3 t o 4 days.
FOR OFFI CI AL USE ONLY
FOR 0,FFICIAZl USE ONLY
Q. L e t ' s st art on t h e day of t h e oper at i ons .
Char l i e Company went i n t h e r e f i r s t and as you s a i d
you w e r e supposed t o be a bl ocki ng f or c e f o r Char l i e
Company. So you knew Char l i e Company was goi ng i n
t he r e .
A. They we r e al r eady i n t h e r e , bef or e we got o u t
t he r e .
Q = They went i n f i r s t , and t hen Bravo Company went
i n . My ques t i on now i s when you came i n f o r a l andi ng t h a t
morning, do you r e c a l l whet her t h e r e was any f i r i n g goi ng i n?
A. When t h e he l i c opt e r s come i n t hey always f i r e t o
c l e a r t h e a r e a and t h a t i s t h e onl y f i r e .
Q. Do you know i f you were on t he first o r second
l i f t ?
A. I w a s on t h e f i r s t l i f t .
0- The f i r s t l i f t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do you r e c a l l i f your doorgunners w e r e f i r i n g ?
A. Y e s , because I remember t hey w e r e f i r i n g , because
I was a gunner and I wanted t o s ee f o r myself t h e way t hey
were f i r i n g .
&. You were i nt e r e s t e d?
Y e s .
Q. They d i d n ' t have any t r oubl e ? They d i d n ' t have
any jams?
A. No..
Q They w e r e f i r i n g ?
A. Y e s .
(MCKENNEY)
APP T-328
Q. What w e r e t hey f i r i n g a t ?
A. They cal l itc l e a r i ng t h e area. Li ke t h e f i r s t
l oad, t hey c l e a r t h e a r e a and f i r e .
Q. When you got o f f of t h e he l i c opt e r , was anybody
f i r i n g ?
A. A t us?
Q- Y e s .
A. No.
Q. W a s anybody g e t t i n g of f of t h e h e l i c o p t e r coming
o u t f i r i n g ?
A. No.
Q- When you h i t t h e ground, what happened? Did
you set up a l i t k l e per i met er t her e?
A. Y e s .
Q- How l ong di d you s t a y t he r e bef or e you moved o f f ?
A. Maybe 20 mi nut es a t t h e most.
Q. Then you moved o f f i n a gener al nor t he r l y di r e c t i on?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Your h e l i c o p t e r shoul d have l anded wi t h i t s nose
f aci ng Upt i ght ?
A. Y e s .
a. Apparent l y you set down around--you w e r e on t h e
f i r s t l i f t and s e t down around 0815?
A. I c a n ' t say what t i me itwas.
Q. Thi s i s accor di ng t o t h e l og, and t he f i r s t
booby t r a p wa s set o f f a t 0745. How f a r w e r e you from
them when Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d ?
A. Fi f t e e n o r t went y met er s.
Q. Do you recal l whet her t h e pl at oon moved i n a
column of two o r a l l t he squads w e r e i n l i n e ?
A. Bef or e Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d ?
Q Y e s .
A. No. W e w e r e s pr ead out . I t was a sweep.
Q. Abr east ? Walking on l i n e ?
A. Y e s , it w a s a sweep t ype.
Q. How l ong d i d you s t a y i n t h a t f or mat i on?
A. Thi s i s when Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d . W e
set up a s m a l l t ype of per i met er t h e r e and t hey c a l l e d i n
t h e medevac f o r him. That i s when we came back t o where
w e s t a r t e d from and t hey s t a r t e d i n a column t o My L a i .
Q. That i s when t h e second group got h i t ? What
happened on t h a t evacuat i on?
A. The same t hi ng agai n. They c a l l e d i n a medevac
and t hen Capt ai n MICHLES pul l e d us o u t , because we pr ot e s t e d
t h a t t h e r e was a mi nef i el d. W e went around t o t h e l e f t of
t h e pos i t i on t h a t we w e r e i n .
Q. Do you remember whet her one of t he s e he l i c opt e r s
t h a t came i n wa s marked wi t h a r ed cr os s ?
A. I d o n ' t be l i e ve t he second one w a s a medevac.
I know t h e f i r s t one was, ' I be l i e ve .
Q. The second one, do you know i f Col onel BARKER
was on t h a t a i r c r a f t ?
A. I don' t know.
(2. Do you know where t h e 3d Pl at oon was?
A. Y e s . The 3d Pl at oon set up s e c u r i t y around t h e
CP .
Q. What about t h e 1st Pl at oon?
A. They w e r e acr os s a l i t t l e r i ve r . They were acr os s
on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h i s r i ve r .
Q
Do you remember hear i ng any f i r i n g out t h e r e where
t h e 1st Pl at oon was?
A. I don' t r e a l l y know, but t hey s a i d t hey k i l l e d
some peopl e, but I d i d n ' t hear f i r i n g . It coul d have been.
Q- What was t h i s you heard?
A.
When t hey k i l l someone t hey r e por t how many t hey k i l l .
Q. How many di d you hear r epor t ed?
A. They kept r epor t i ng and maybe t hey got 10 o r 11.
Q How di d you know t h i s ?
A. I n our company we had a squad r adi o and we could
hear .
Q. You coul d hear t h i s on t h e r adi o?
A. Y e s .
Q . Did you hear anyt hi ng el se on t h e r adi o?
A. I d i d n ' t per s onal l y hear it, but t he word got
around.
Q. You w e r e not l i s t e n i n g t o a r adi o?
A. No, because t h e machinegun squad was out pul l i ng
s e c ur i t y.
Q Sounds l i k e t h e 1st Pl at oon found a l o t of act i on
ovcr t he r e .
A. They got a l o t of act i on.
Q. 1st Pl at oon had a l l of t h e act i on and t h e 2d
Pl at oon took a l l of t h e c a s ua l t i e s ?
(MCKENNEY) 8
A. That i s t r u e , d e f i n i t e l y .
Q- Do you r e c a l l a change o r do you r e c a l l swapping
pl aces wi t h t he 3d Pl at oon, changi ng mi ssi ons?
A. We j oi ned them. W e d i d n ' t change pl aces .
Q= You j oi ned t h e 3d Pl at oon?
A. Ri ght .
Q . You moved over t o t h e w e s t . Did you e ve r t hi nk
t h a t your pl at oon w a s supposed t o sweep Pi nkvi l l e , My L a i (1),
t h a t b i g v i l l a g e ?
A. No.
Q- You were r i g h t on t he end of itwhen you t ook
t he s e c a s u a l t i e s .
A. Ri ght .
Q. Nobody e ve r s a i d you were a l l goi ng t hr ough t h a t
l i t t l e vi l l a ge ?
A. That i s where we were goi ng when a l l t h i s happened.
Q. What makes you t hi nk t h a t ?
A. W e were on l i n e .
Q. ' You w e r e on l i n e goi ng i n t o t h a t v i l l a g e t hen?
A. Where we were a t t h e t i me Li eut enant COCHRAN got
h i t , itw a s maybe one o r two hoot ches. That i s a l l t h a t I
s a w. I don' t know t h e r e was a l a r ge v i l l a g e up ahead.
Q. Was Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t r i g h t by a hedgerow
o r di ke?
A. I be l i e ve t h e hedgerow wa s behi nd him because
t h e h i l l w a s behi nd him l i k e t h i s .
LTC NOLL: You s a i d t h a t you changed di r e c t i ons a f t e r t h e
second mine went o f f ?
A. Ri ght .
9 APP T-328
Q Can you t e l l me what wa s s a i d , how t h i s change
i n di r e c t i on came about ? Had you--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Li ke I s a i d , a f t e r t he s e two mines
went of f w e kept p r o t e s t i n g about it, t h a t it wa s a mine-
f i e l d . Some of t h e guys s a i d t hey were not goi ng on and w e
t ook our s t u f f and went around t o t h e l e f t .
Q. Who di d you t e l l t h i s t o ?
A.
To our squad l e a d e r , . t h e pl at oon l e a de r and pl at oon
daddy. I n t ur n t hey t o l d Capt ai n MICHLES, s o he pul l e d us
back out .
Q. Taking t h i s from t h e begi nni ng, a chopper came i n ,
r i g h t ?
A. Y e s -
Q. And wa s your whole pl at oon on t h e f i r s t l i f t ?
A. I don ' t remember.
Q. Did you wa i t u n t i l t h e second l i f t came i n be f or e
you s t a r t e d goi ng t oward Pi nkvi l l e ?
A. Ri ght .
Q- DO you know what di r e c t i on you were goi ng on
t h e ground?
A. Nort h.
Q. I f you cont i nued i n t h i s di r e c t i on, would you
have e nt e r e d Pi nkvi l l e ? Was t he v i l l a g e dead i n f r o n t of
you?
The v i l l a g e , t h e l a r g e v i l l a g e , w a s t o our r i g h t .
Q a
Do you t hi nk you would have'got t e n i n t o t h i s
l a r g e v i l l a g e had you not s uf f e r e d t he s e c a s u a l t i e s ?
A. Y e s .
10
APP T-328
Q. Did you have any i ns t r uc t i ons what t o do a f t e r
you got i ns i de t he vi l l a ge ?
A. Set up s e c ur i t y and sear ch t he vi l l a ge .
Q. Was it f i xed i n your mind t h a t you were going
t o go i n t o t h i s vi l l a ge bef or e t he c a s ua l t i e s occurred?
A. I n my mind?
Q. Yes.
A. I ' d s a y , yes.
Q. When t he second group of peopl e were wounded f r o m
t he l a s t mine, di d you s e e a chopper come i n and pi ck them
up?
A. Yes.
Q Did you see who was i n i t ?
A. No.
Q. Do you know i f Captain MICHLES was i n t he v i c i n i t y
of t h e chopper?
A. Y e s , because t h e chopper landed i n t he CP ar ea.
Q Do you know i f t he r e was any exchange between
squad l eader s and t he pl at oon l eader s with r ef er ence t o t h e
pl at oon' s r el uct ance t o go on t h i s t r a i l of mines t h a t you
were on? W a s t he r e any exchange between Capt ai n MICHLES and
t he pl at oon l eader ?
A. Y e s , de f i ni t e l y .
Q. When di d you ge t t he i ns t r uc t i ons t o change
di r e c t i ons ? Before t he chopper s a t down?
A. No, aft erwards.
Q. What w e r e you t ol d?
(MCKENNEY) 11
APP T-328
A. When t he squad l eader came around he s a i d we were
backing out of t h i s ar ea and going around by way of a t r a i l .
Q - You s a i d t h a t you thought t he 3d Pl at oon was pro-
vi di ng s e c ur i t y f o r t he CP?
A. Right.
Q. How permanent was t he CP? I n ot he r words, was it
a moving CP o r di d t hey set up f o r an hour and t hen move
someplace e l s e ?
A. Y e s , on t h i s t ype of oper at i on, us ual l y we s e t up
i f we a r e going t o be i n t h i s ar ea a l l day. It w i l l be per-
manent a t l e a s t f o r t he day; i t ' s not going t o be a tempor-
ar y CP.
Q. Was t h i s a temporary t ype CP?
A. Yes, I would say so.
COL WILSON: Do you r e c a l l t h a t day any ARVN i n t e r p r e t e r s
coming i n?
A. One could have, I don' t know.
Q Do you remember Char l i e Company l i nki ng up wi t h
you?
A. Linking up wi t h us t h a t day?
Q Yes, sometime t h a t day?
A. No, I don' t , because a f t e r we came around from
t h i s expl osi on we s e t up on t he o u t s k i r t s of a smal l vi l l a ge
and we s a t t he r e u n t i l t h a t aft ernoon sometime.
Q
You di d what now? Af t er a l l of t hose peopl e were
wounded you di d what?
A.
We set up on t he o u t s k i r t s of a vi l l a ge and we
sat t he r e q u i t e a whi l e.
Q And t hen you moved of f from t her e?
APP T-328
A. Y e s .
Q- Do you r e c a l l t h i s phot o, Exhi bi t P-18? Do you
recal l anyt hi ng about t h a t photograph?
A. No. I d i d n ' t see t h i s .
Q. How about t h i s , P-19?
A. No.
A. Thi s wa s a l l 3d Pl at oon her e and I d i d n ' t s e e
t h i s .
Q. How about P-21, di d you ever see any of t hose
people?
A. I s a w them, but I don' t remember t he names.
A. (Witness shakes head, i ndi cat i ng negat i ve) Thi s
guy her e, I don' t remember.
A. Y e s , I remember t h i s one.
Q- Where i s t ha t ?
A. I n t h e same ar ea where I t hi nk they were going
through. They took a l l of t h e peopl e out of t h e vi l l a ge s
and crowded them around t h i s t ree and they were quest i oni ng
them.
Q Is t h a t Captain MICHLES i n t h a t photograph on t he
l e f t ?
'2. Y e s .
Q Who i s t h a t wi t h him wi t h t h e papers? Do you
remember s eei ng t h a t person?
(MCKENNEY) 13
APP T-328
A. I coul d have, b u t I d i d n ' t pay any a t t e n t i o n t o it.
Q H e r e is P- 66. These two Vietnamese s o l d i e r s , have
you e ve r s een them bef or e?
A. I onl y seen one of them.
Q Which one?
A. Thi s one ( i n d i c a t i n g ) .
Q The one on t h e l e f t ?
A. I t hi nk s o.
Q- Did you see any i nt e r r oga t i ons goi ng on bes i de
t he one of Capt ai n MICHLES?
A. Only one.
Q = Did you see an i nt e r r oga t i on?
A. Ye s .
Q. Where?
A. That i s r i g h t a f t e r MILUS got k i l l e d .
Q No, I mean t h a t day?
A. No.
Q. You d i d n ' t see any t h a t day?
A. I knew t hey had some goi ng on, b u t I d i d n ' t s e e
any
Q . Do you r e c a l l any U.S. o f f i c e r s , not from Bravo
Company, and i n t e r p r e t e r s coming i n t h a t day?
A. No.
Q. Did anyt hi ng unusual happen a f t e r t h a t af t er noon?
Do you remember Char l i e Company coming i n ?
(MCKENNEY) 1 4 APP T-328
A. That ni ght we were a l l t oge t he r , yes . I remember
t h a t .
Q Do you remember i f t hey came i n wi t h any ARVN
s o l d i e r s o r not?
A. They di d.
Q. How many?
A. I don' t know, b u t us ual l y two. But I d o n ' t know
how many it wa s .
Q You set up a def ens i ve pos i t i on. Did anyt hi ng
happen?
A. Not t h a t I remember.
Q Did you he a r any i nt e r r oga t i ons o r ques t i oni ng
goi ng on t h a t day?
A. Y e s . There w a s ques t i oni ng goi ng on.
Q What was goi ng on, do you know?
A. They us ual l y ques t i on i f t h e r e i s any VC i n t h e
ar ea.
Q Do you know of any unusual t echni ques used by t h e
i nt e r r oga t or s ?
A. They hooked up t he s e w i r e s t o t h e peopl e and t hey
t ur ned t h i s phone-type r adi o.
Q And what happens?
A. I t shocks them.
Q Were t hey us i ng t h a t t h i s day?
A. I t hi nk t hey w e r e . I t hi nk s o, a f t e r we set up
f o r t h e ni ght .
Q. Who was us i ng t h i s , American o r Vietnamese?
A. The Vietnamese s o l d i e r s .
Q. Did you s e e t h i s ?
A. P a r t of it.
Q. You di d see i t ?
A. Y e s .
Q
crank?
Where w e r e t hey hooki ng t h e wi r es ?
To t h e pe ni s , t o t h e e a r s .
To t h e s e n s i t i v e l oc a t i ons ?
I t hi nk t h e peni s i s s e n s i t i v e .
What happened t o t he s e guys when t hey cranked t h e
Did t hey h o l l e r ?
Y e s , t hey hol l e r e d.
Did t hey t a l k a f t e r t h a t ?
A. Same t hi ng, t hey d i d n ' t t a l k .
Q
Were t hey us i ng any ot he r t echni ques bes i des
f i e l d t el ephones?
A.
No, not t h a t I remember, because t h a t was supposed
t o be t he b e s t t hi ng.
Q.
You d i d n ' t hear of any of them g e t t i n g s hot ?
A.
That eveni ng i n t h e per i met er ?
Q. Y e s .
A. No.
Q
Did any of them g e t t h e i r f i nge r s c ut o f f ?
A.
It coul d have happened and I d i d n ' t know about it.
Q Did you hear about i t ?
A. No.
Q. The next morning, t he 1st and 3d Pl at oon saddl ed
up and went down t o t he bri dge?
A. Y e s .
Q. And t he r e was act i on down t her e?
A. Y e s .
Q. What pl at oon l e d of f from t he def ensi ve pos i t i on?
Was it t h e 3d Pl at oon o r t he 2d Platoon?
A. 3d Pl at oon, I bel i eve.
Q 3d Platoon was f i r s t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Followed by t he CP?
A. Yes.
Q. The mortar pl at oon was mixed i n wi t h t he CP?
A. Yes.
Q - You di dn' t s ee much of what was going on up t he r e
t hen?
A. No.
Q - Did you hear any f i r i ng?
A. Yes.
Q Did you s ee any gunships?
A. No.
APP T-328
Q Did you h a l t ver y l ong a f t e r t h e f i r i n g s t a r t e d ,
o r w e r e you moving?
A. W e w e r e moving.
Q How l ong d i d you hoi d up when t h e f i r i n g s t a r t e d ?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk w e di d.
Q D i d you cr os s t h e br i dge wi t hout any problem?
A. W e cr os s ed, but t hey were checki ng f o r mines.
Q S t i l l checki ng f o r mines?
A. Y e s . And a f t e r w e got acr os s t hey found a mine
and blew it up.
Q Who wa s checki ng?
A. I t hi nk guys from t h e 3d Pl at oon, I d o n ' t r e a l l y
know. They had demol i t i on guys.
Q. There were supposed t o be two demol i t i on engi neer s
wi t h t h e company. D i d you see them?
A. Y e s .
Q - I even t hi nk t hey w e r e c a l l e d forward t o l o c a t e
t he s e mines. L e t me ask t h i s . Were t h e mines marked o f f ,
by t h e t i m e you got t h e r e , wi t h t i s s u e paper ?
A. Yes.
Q.
You don' t remeher anyt hi ng a t t h e t i m e you got
t he r e ? Most of t h i s a c t i v i t y around t h e br i dge had st opped?
A. Yes, t h e 1st Pl at oon wa s s i t t i n g around. They
had a per i met er .
i
L - I guess TAYLOR had al r eady been evacuat ed?
A. Y e s .
Q
id you see anyt hi ng unusual over t he r e ? Did you
see any bodi es around o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t , f r e s h gr aves?
A. No.
Q. What w a s your pl at oon doi ng t hen? Did you s t o p
f o r any l engt h of t i me?
A. W e st opped t h e r e and t h a t i s when Li eut enant LEWIS
came i n on a chopper wi t h t h e phot ographer.
Q Li eut enant LEWIS t ook t h e pl at oon over , d i d n ' t
he? What di d t h e phot ogr apher do?
A. Took a p i c t u r e of him. I know he t ook a coupl e
of pi c t ur e s .
Q What di d t h i s phot ographer l ook l i k e ?
A. Young, i n h i s e a r l y 20' s .
Q Did he have on a s o f t h a t o r hel met ?
A. A s o f t cap.
Q. J ungl e o r bas ebal l ?
A. Basebal l t ype.
Q. Did he have any ki nd of i ns i gni a on?
A. I d i d n ' t pay t h a t much a t t e nt i on.
Q. W a s he weari ng a j ungl e s u i t o r f a t i gue s ?
A. Fat i gues , I t hi nk.
Q. . Did he have a MACV pat ch on?
A. Y e s .
Q Was it r ed?
A. That i s t h e c ol or of MACV, r ed and whi t e.
(MCKENNEY) 18
APP T-328
Q Was it t h e camouflaged one?
A. Y e s , it wa s .
Q - I t hi nk t hey cal l it subdued?
A. Y e s .
Q. You do remember he had on a MACV pat ch?
A. Y e s .
Q- Did he have anyt hi ng el se on h i s uni form, St a r s
and S t r i ~ e s ?
A. Yes, he had St a r s and St r i p e s on somet hi ng l i k e a
name t a g pat ch.
Q. He di d have t h a t ?
A. Y e s .
Q - You remember s e e i ng t h a t ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. And he t ook two pi c t ur e s ?
A. I d o n ' t know, I ' d s ay two.
Q. What happened t o him a f t e r t h a t ? Did he go wi t h
your pl at oon?
A. No. I d o n ' t t hi nk so. I d o n ' t know where he
went a f t e r t h a t . That i s t h e l a s t I remember s e e i ng him.
Q Do you remember s eei ng Li eut enant MUNDY t h a t day?
A. Y e s .
Q. Did he come o u t t he r e ?
A. Yes. He came o u t wi t h t h e phot ographer.
(MCKENNEY) 19
APP T-328
Q You d o n ' t remember t h i s phot ogr apher ' s name?
A. No.
Q You d o n ' t remember how l ong he s t a ye d o u t t her e?.
You d i d n ' t see him agai n, i s what you s a i d.
A. That i s r i g h t .
Q What else came on t h a t chopper? Was t h e r e any
ammunition?
A.
Water came i n on t h e chopper and most l i k e l y ,
ammunition.
Q. Af t e r t h e chopper l e f t , di d you move o f f t hen?
A. Y e s , t h e 2d Pl at oon moved t oward t h e east , t oward
t h e wat er .
Q Your pl at oon moved down t h e c oa s t i n t h e sand?
A. Ri ght .
Q Hard wal ki ng?
A. De f i ni t e l y.
Q 2d Pl at oon r epor t ed, I guess it was t h e 2d Pl at oon,
r epor t ed a VC k i l l e d . Two engaged and one k i l l e d . What
happened t he r e ?
A. They coul dn ' t f i n d him.
Q. Where di d you see t he s e two?
A. As w e were on t h e beach t hey went , up t h i s sand
p i l e and t hey f i r e d upon them and he f e l l . But when t hey
got t h e r e he was n' t t he r e .
Q . I t hought it was r epor t ed t h a t t h e r e w e r e two
downed t he r e ?
A. It coul d have been.
Q What made them t hi nk t h i s was a VC?
A. I don' t know.
W a s he r unni ng away from them?
A. I don' t know, because a machinegunner--I a m i n t h e
r e a r s e c u r i t y and t hey had t h i s ot he r machinegunner up t he r e .
But he was not f i r i n g . I r an up f r o n t and I s a w t h e guy when
he f e l l , b u t when t hey got down t h e r e , he was not t he r e . They
r epor t ed them k i l l e d , b u t no body.
Q Were t he r e any bodi es on t h e t r a i l s ?
A. The guy t h a t went up s a i d t h e r e wa s and w e d i d n ' t
f ol l ow it. Three guys checked it out .
Q. Did anyt hi ng e l s e happen?
A. W e went on down t o t he c oa s t , down on t h e beach
l i n e .
Q. A1 1 t h e way down t o t h e end?
A. Ri ght .
Q. A p r e t t y hot day, was n' t i t ?
A. Every day i n Vietnam is hot .
Q Did you ever see t he s e pr i s one r s i n Exhi bi t P-208?
Do you remember t hos e pr i s oner s ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do you know what happened t o them?
A. No.
0. Did t hey s t a y wi t h you a l l ni ght ?
A. I guess, I d o n ' t know r e a l l y . The next morning
we got up and moved out .
Q. You d i d n ' t s e e them?
(MCKENNEY) 21
APP T-328
A. I d i d n ' t pay any a t t e n t i o n t o them.
Q - P-209, does t h a t l ook l i k e anyt hi ng you have e ve r
seen bef or e?
A. That i s t h e same ar ea.
Q. That i s where t h e CP was?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went down. t h i s , do you remember any ARVN
bei ng wi t h you when you moved s out h on t h a t beach?
A. No, not wi t h t h e 2d Pl at oon.
Q. You d i d n ' t see any ARVN?
A. No. When w e l e f t we s p l i t up and a l l of t h e
pl at oons s p l i t up.
Q. Did you burn any v i l l a g e s goi ng down t he r e ?
W e went t hrough them and burned them.
How many vi l l a ge s ?
Vi l l ages o r hoot ches?
Both.
A l l of them.
A l l t h e way down?
Y e s , a l l t h e way down.
Thi s i s P-121, do you remember t h a t ?
Y e s . We burned a l l of them.
Q Did you burn t h i s ? Thi s was down a t t h e ext reme
t i p .
(MCKENNEY) 22
APP T-328
A.
l a r ge
There
W e st opped where t hes e palm t r e e s ar e. I t ' s a
opening. We d i d n ' t go a l l t he way down t o t he end.
i s a l a r ge vi l l a ge down f ur t her .
Q I t hi nk
you a r e confusi ng t h a t wi t h t h e next day.
This i s t h e br i dge r i g h t here ( i ndi cat i ng on Exhi bi t MAP-4).
A. Right.
Q. And you moved down t h i s coast . You moved r i g h t
al ong t h e s ea t o t he t i p and came back her e and went i n t o
a l aager ar ea.
A. Ri ght , w e burned a l l t he way down. We came down
f i r s t and w e burned going up.
Q. You didn 't going down?
A. No, we burned some hootches i n her e ( i ndi cat i ng)
t h a t morning and we walked a l l t he way down her e. We
s t a r t e d burning her e and s t a r t e d burni ng going back up.
Q Was t he r e anywhere i n t h i s ar ea ot her t han t h i s
day where t h e or der came down not t o burn any more?
A. Right.
Q When di d you get t h a t i ns t r uc t i on?
A. I t hi nk t h a t i s when we l aager ed i n .
Q- Not whi l e you were on t he march?
A. N o , because when we walked a l l t he way down t h a t
i s when we s t a r t e d burni ng and moving back i n t o t he l aager
area. The vi l l a ge r i g h t t he r e a t t he end we burned up.
Q This i s P-212 i t was t aken down a t t he end of t h e
peni nsul a down t her e. Is t h a t t he one you ar e t a l ki ng about?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do you recogni ze i t ?
APP T-328
FOF. OFFICIAL USE ONLY
A. Y e s . W e burned a l l of t h i s because t h e r e i s anot her
v i l l a g e and w e d i d n ' t go beyond t h i s poi nt her e. From he r e
we burned back up. W e d i d n ' t burn a l l of t h e hoot ches, some
of t h e hoot ches w e s t r i ppe d.
LTC NOLL: What w a s t h e 1st Pl at oon doi ng?
A. I don ' t know.
Q Do you know t hey we r e , on your r i g h t ?
A. They had t o be because o f ' t h e w a t e r .
Q Were you i n cont act wi t h them a s you went sout h?
A. Y e s .
Q Did you s e e any smoke coming up from t h a t ar ea?
A. Ri ght , smoke a l l over t h a t day.
Q What was t h e b a s i s of bur ni ng some of t h e
hoot ches? Why w e r e some burned and some wer en' t ?
A. They t o l d us t o burn t h e hoot ches and move out .
Q. Who t o l d you t o do t h i s ?
A. I guess t h e capt ai n di d, t h e squad l e a de r t o l d us.
Q. Did you g e t t h i s i n s t r u c t i o n changed t h a t morning
o r when?
A. That af t er noon, when w e got i n t o t h i s ar ea.
Q. Was t h e i n s t r u c t i o n gi ven out i n a way s o t h a t
one group w a s supposed t o bur n? Was i t s a i d , his pl at oon
w i l l burn hoot ches and t h i s pl at oon w i l l p u l l s e c u r i t y , " o r
was everybody supposed t o do it?
A. The 1st Pl at oon w a s t o our r i g h t . They w e r e
pul l i ng s e c u r i t y t o t h e r i g h t .
Q What about wi t hi n t h e pl at oon? Was any squad des-
i gnat ed t o do t h e bur ni ng o r was everybody supposed t o do
i t ?
A. W e set up s e c u r i t y and our squad was two 6 0 gun-
ne r s and I had t h r e e peopl e t o man t h e gun. They s t ayed
i n wi t h t h e gun and t h e rest of t h e peopl e were supposed t o
s t a r t bur ni ng.
Q. Now, back i n t h a t l a a ge r a r e a t h a t n i g h t , do you
remember any choppers coming i n wi t h peopl e? Did you have
any de t a i ne e s o r pr i s one r s o r anyt hi ng?
A. I t hi nk t hey had one o r two. I don' t remember
peopl e coming i n on a chopper t hough.
Q. You don' t remember anyt hi ng unusual about t h a t
ni ght ?
A. No.
Q You went on back and you s t a r t e d o f f t h e next
morning and went by t h a t br i dge. You pi cked up t h e 3d
Pl at oon. Do you remember f i ndi ng t h e r i c e ? They w e r e
supposed t o have choppers come i n and l i f t t h i s r i c e out .
You d i d n ' t s e e it your s el f ?
A. No.
Q And pi cked up three men and moved up i n t o a b i g
v i l l a g e and rounded up some peopl e?
A. Ri ght .
Q. What d i d t h e 2d Pl at oon do t h a t day?
A. W e moved t o t h e nor t h of t h e v i l l a g e . and pul l e d
s e c u r i t y and sear ched hoot ches.
Q. What were t h e 3d and 1st Pl at oons doi ng?
A. The 3d Pl at oon wa s t o our e a s t and t hey came i n t o
t he v i l l a g e and t h a t day w e s a t around and t a l ke d.
Q How about s o r t of a l a ke up t h e r e , a f i s h pond?
A. I t ' s r i g h t on t h e ocean.
Q There w a s a b i g f i s h pond up t he r e . I don' t know
i f you recal l t h i s o r not . You s ay you moved t o t h e nor t h
s i d e of t h e v i l l a g e , t he whole pl at oon?
A. Ri ght .
Q Where di d you spend t h e ni ght ?
A. W e came back down t oward t h e beach s out h of t h e
vi l l a ge .
Q. Was t h e CP i n t h e v i l l a g e dur i ng t h e day t i me?
A. Not i n t h e a r e a t h a t we were i n . They were down
f u r t h e r probabl y by t h e vi l l a ge . They w e r e not i n t h e area
w e were i n .
Q Who el se wa s i n t h a t ar ea?
A. 3d Pl at oon w a s t he r e , and t h e capt i ve. The VC
we got him hi di ng i n a boat .
COL WILSON: I t w a s r epor t ed t h a t one VC was pi cked up. Is
t h a t t h e one you a r e t a l k i n g about ?
A. I suppose s o.
Q. What di d you do wi t h him?
A. They asked him ques t i ons and t he peopl e i n t h e
v i l l a g e s a i d he j u s t came i n . They s a i d he w a s a VC. H e
s a i d where a cache w a s , b u t t hey d i d n ' t f i n d anyt hi ng.
Q D i d you e ve r see t h a t man on P-215?
A. That coul d be t h e man.
Q You don' t r ecogni ze him?
A. They a l l l ook a l i k e t o me .
Q Did you see t h e medi cal team working t h a t day?
(MCKENNEY 26 APP T-328
A. Y e s .
Q- Did you see any a ddi t i ona l ARVN i n t e r p r e t e r s come
i n t he r e ?
A. No.
Q. D i d you s e e any i nt e r r oga t i ons goi ng on?
A. Yes.
Q Who w a s as ki ng them?
A. Li eut enant LEWIS, and t hen he t ur ned them over
t o Capt ai n MICHLES.
Q. I d i d n ' t t hi nk Li eut enant LEWIS o r Capt ai n MICHLES
coul d speak Vietnamese.
A. They coul d have an i n t e r p r e t e r .
Q Did t hey have an i n t e r p r e t e r ?
A. I suppose so.
Q. The i n t e r p r e t e r t hey had, d i d t hey have him bef or e?
A. H e w a s a f r i e ndl y t ype. A l l of t h e guys t a l ke d t o
him.
Q Did you s e e any unusual t echni ques bei ng used by
t h a t i n t e r p r e t e r ?
A. Not t h a t day.
Q. That n i g h t you had a mortar a t t a c k , and MILUS got
k i l l e d . You had f our o r f i v e c a s u a l t i e s ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Was t h e r e any s mal l arms f i r e coming i n t o t h e
per i met er t h a t ni ght ?
A.
There coul d be, because t h e r e was s o much goi ng on.
Q Bef or e t h a t , do you recal l t h a t af t er noon o r e a r l y
t h a t eveni ng whet her t h e r e w a s any f r i e ndl y o r enemy a r t i l l e r y
f i r e out t he r e ?
APP T-328
A. I be l i e ve t h e r e w a s a coupl e of rounds. I ' m
not s ur e.
Q- Did you see a woman bei ng br ought i n wi t h h e r l e g
a l l r i pped open?
A. That eveni ng?
Q That eveni ng.
A. Y e s , I di d.
Q. Did you see h e r evacuat ed? Do you know what
happened t o her ?
A.
I know t h e medics were working on he r .
Q. Do you recall t h e next morning whet her t h e r e w e r e
any de t a i ne e s o r pr i s one r s i n t h e ar ea?
A. Af t e r MILUS got k i l l e d ?
Q. Y e s .
A. Y e s . There wa s .
Q How many?
A. Two a t t h e most. I d e f i n i t e l y remember th'is one.
Q why?
A. They hooked t h i s r a di o t o him.
Q That i s t h e day t hey used t he t el ephone, el ect ri cal
shock?
A. Yes.
Q Did t hey use it bef or e t h a t ?
A. Y e s .
Q Did you see them usi ng it bef or e t h a t ?
A. Y e s .
Q. And t hey used it bef or e t h a t day?
(MCKENNEY) 28
APP T-328
FOR OF F I CI AL USE ONLY
A. Yes.
Q. How many det ai nees di d t hey have?
A. I t hi nk two.
Q Did t hey use t h i s system on bot h det ai nees?
A. They could have, but I onl y saw it used on one.
Q- Were t hey usi ng anyt hi ng besi de t h a t t el ephone?
A. He was pr e t t y wel l worked over , beat en.
Q What happened t o him? Was he evacuated o r t urned
l oose o r what?
A. He was evacuated.
Q - Both of them?
A. Yes.
Q O r di d one of them get away? A t t he time you saw
him, di d you s e e h i m usi ng anyt hi ng besi de hooking t h i s t e l e -
phone t o him?
A. I t w a s wi t h t he f i s t .
Q How about ki cki ng them?
A. Could have been.
Q. Did you s ee them?
A. No.
Q . How many people were i nvol ved i n i t ?
A. Mostly it was t he guys i n t he 1st Pl at oon.
Q a This was wi t h Bravo Company people?
A. ARVN and i nt e r pr e t e r s , t oo.
Q. Were t hey a l l down t he r e around t he VC?
APP T-328
A. The ARVN s t ayed i n t h e CP group, and he w a s i n
t h e CP group.
Q Was Capt ai n MICHLES t he r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q = Did you n o t i c e any s t r ange o f f i c e r s t he r e ? Any
mi l i t a r y i n t e l l i g e n c e t he r e ?
A. ARVN t ype?
Q. One coul d have been U. S . o r ARVN.
A. There w e r e ARVN t he r e .
Q. How many?
A. I would s ay two of them.
Q. You s ay it w a s t h e 1st Pl at oon worki ng t h i s guy
over ?
A. Y e s , and t he ARVN.
Q Did you know Ser geant LIAS?
A. I di d.
Q. Was he ki cki ng t h i s guy around?
A. Y e s . I saw him swing a t him, b u t not ki c k him.
Q You don' t know what happened t o t h i s pr i s oner ?
A. No. I t hi nk t hey t ook one out t h a t morning. F i r s t
Pl at oon t ook one VC o u t , and t h a t i s when he t o l d them where
t h i s cache was. I don' t know where t hey went . I don' t know.
LTC NOLL: On t h e morning of t h e 19t h, you w e r e evacuat ed and
you were o u t i n t h e e a r l y af t er noon. Do you remember pi cki ng
up any a ddi t i ona l VC s us pect s t h i s morning ot he r t han one you
had i n your pos i t i on?
A. No.
Q The peopl e you w e r e ques t i oni ng, are t hos e you kept
over ni ght ?
(MCKENNEY ) 30 APP T-328
A. Y e s .
Q . You don' t know of any a ddi t i ona l ones pi cked up on
t he morning of t h e 19t h?
A. No .
COL WILSON: Mr . MCKENNEY, di d you have any knowledge of an
i nve s t i ga t i on o r i nqui r y bei ng made a f t e r t h a t oper at i on?
A. No .
Q Were you quest i oned on t h i s oper at i on?
A. No .
Q Did you have a camera?
A. No .
Q. Do you know of anybody i n your--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) No .
Q - Do you have any not ebooks o r anyt hi ng t h a t mi ght
have s o me i nf or mat i on?
A. No.
Q Did you e ve r hear of any c i v i l i a n s bei ng k i l l e d ?
A. N o t u n t i l I r ead it i n t h e paper s r e c e nt l y.
Q- Were you ever t o l d not t o di s c us s t h i s oper at i on
o r anyt hi ng t h a t happened?
A. No .
Q. Asi de from your de s c r i pt i on of what happened up
t h e r e t h e l a s t day, do you know of any s us peot s or PW's
mi s t r eat ed by U.S. o r ARVN s o l d i e r s ?
A. Repeat t h a t .
Q. Do you know i f any s us pect s o r PW's w e r e mi s t r eat ed
by U.S. or ARVN s o l d i e r s ?
APP T-328
A. That day?
Q. N o , except f o r t h a t one day up t h e r e you t o l d me
about . Do you know of any ot he r t i mes of t h i s oper at i on t h i s
happened?
A. The f i r s t ni ght ?
Q. The f i r s t ni ght t hey used t h e e l e c t r i c a l syst em
t hen. Is t h e r e any o t h e r t i m e t h a t you know o f ?
A. They be a t them up, b u t di d not use t h e e l e c t r i c a l
hook up.
Q- Where di d t hey be a t them up?
A. H i t them a coupl e t i mes.
Q Where wa s t h i s ?
A. Thi s was t h e oper at i on bef or e t h a t . I t was not
dur i ng t h a t oper ai on, no.
Q Do you know i f mar i j uana was a problem i n t h e
company?
A. What do you mean a problem? Did i t make guys
do t hi ngs ?
Q Y e s .
A. No.
Q. Unusual t hi ngs ?
A. No.
Q Do you know i f peopl e i n t h e company used it on
oper at i ons ?
A. Not on oper at i ons . ,
Q Did you ever he a r of an or der bei ng passed down
a t any t i m e dur i ng t he oper at i on t o s t o p bur ni ng o r s t o p
k i l l i n g ?
A.
The onl y or de r we had was t o s t o p bur ni ng.
(MCKENNEY) 32
APP T-328
Q. I know your normal procedure. I wonder i f
anyt hi ng s pe c i a l came down?
A. No.
Q Have you got any f ur t he r testimony o r f ur t he r
st at ement s t h a t might a s s i s t us?
A. No, not hi ng t h a t I can t e s t i f y r i g h t now.
Q. I advi se you, not t o di scuss your testimony i n t h i s
cas e wi t h ot he r s , i ncl udi ng ot her wi t nesses except as you may
be r equi r ed t o do bef or e a competent j udi c i a l , l e g i s l a t i v e ,
o r admi ni s t r at i ve body.
(The hear i ng was recessed a t 1528 hours, 5 February
APP T-328
WITNESS: MERCER, Leon R.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 9 Febr uar y 1970
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: RTO, B/4/3.
1. PRIOR TRAINING I N THE RULES OF LAND WARFARE.
The wi t ne s s went from Hawaii t o Vietnam wi t h t h e
11t h Br i gade (pg. 1). He d i d n o t r e c a l l e v e r havi ng a
class on t h e l e g a l i t y ve r s us t h e i l l e g a l i t y of o r d e r s
(pg. 2 ) . H e d i d n o t r e c a l l a c l a s s on t h e Geneva
Convent i ons (pg. 2 ) . The wi t ne s s had r e c e i ve d a copy of
t h e MACV c a r d , "Nine Rul es" (pg. 2 ) . H e d i d n o t see a
copy of t h e c a r d "The Enemy i n Your Hands" (pg. 2 ) .
The wi t ne s s s t a t e d t h a t he knew on 15 March t h a t t he y
were goi ng t o move o u t t h e f ol l owi ng morning on a n ope r a t i on
(pg. 2 ) . H e coul d n o t r e c a l l whet her itwas t o be a
s e a r c h and c l e a r o r a s e a r c h and de s t r oy mi s s i on ( pg. 2 ) .
H e s t a t e d t h a t i f itwas a f r i endl y v i l l a g e t hey would j u s t
s e a r c h it,b u t i n an unf r i e ndl y a r e a t hey would nor mal l y
bur n t h e p l a c e ( pgs. 3 , 4 ) . They would n o t nor mal l y i n t e r f e r e
wi t h t h e o l d peopl e who r a n a v i l l a g e ( pg. 4 ) . I f t hey
encount er ed young peopl e t hey would send them back f o r
i n t e r r o g a t i o n (pg. 4 ) . The wi t ne s s s t a t e d t h a t t h e CP
group c a r r i e d two r a d i o s ; one on t h e company n e t and one
on b a t t a l i o n n e t (pg. 3). Ther e would a l s o b e two r a d i o s
i n each pl a t oon; one f o r t h e l i e u t e n a n t and one f o r t h e
s e r ge a nt ( pg. 3 ) .
(MERCER) 1 SUq APP T-349
3. COMBAT ASSAULT.
a. Ac t i v i t i e s on 16 March.
(1) Landing and i n i t i a l movement.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t Capt ai n MICHLES
went on t he f i r s t l i f t (pg. 5) . The second pl at oon went
on t he same l i f t al ong wi t h t h e CP group (pg. 5) . The
mor t ar pl at oon had not come out when t hey l anded (pg. 5).
The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l any f i r i n g when t hey went i n
and s t a t e d t h e r e was none u n t i l t hey l a t e r r a n i n t o a
v i l l a g e (pg. 6 ) . The doorgunners were n o t f i r i n g a s t hey
went i n (pg. 6 ) . They d i d not c i r c l e t h e a r e a bef or e
l andi ng because t he Sharks had s t r a f e d t h e a r e a a s t hey
came i n (pg. 6 ) . The wi t nes s di d not r e c a l l an a r t i l l e r y
pr epar at i on (pg. 6) . H e was i nformed of Exhi bi t M-20,
t he t ape r ecor di ng of communications i ndi c a t i ng t h a t t h e r e
was a pr ep (pg. 7 ) . He s t i l l d i d not r e c a l l any a r t i l l e r y
pr ep (pg. 7). A s soon a s t he second pl at oon l anded it
moved o u t ( pg. 5) . H e s t a t e d t h a t t h e rest of t h e
he l i c opt e r s w e r e s t i l l coming i n when t he second pl at oon
h i t t he mine (pg. 5 ) . Thi s occur r ed 50 t o 75 met er s
from where t he CP was l ocat ed ( pg. 5 ) . The wi t nes s
s t a t e d t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN had moved of f t o t he r i g h t ,
cr os s i ng a t r a i l , and was headi ng back t owards LZ upt i ght
(pg. 1 0 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t a he l i c opt e r was r i g h t
overhead when COCHRAN was wounded (pg. 11). Thi s was t he
hel i copt er whi ch t ook COCHRAN i n ( pg. 11). The second
expl osi on occur r ed a s t he members of t he pl at oon cont i nued
up t h e t r a i l (pg. 1 2 ) . The i nj ur e d were evacuat ed by Col onel
BARKER' S he l i c opt e r ( pg. 15). Col onel BARKER d i d not g e t
of f t h e he l i c opt e r when i t came i n ( pg. 15) . The f i r s t
pl at oon had moved of f t owards t he br i dge (pg. 11). The
second pl at oon was c a l l e d back by MICHLES (pg. 1 2 ) . The
e n t i r e company began t o move i n t h e d i r e c t i o n t owards LZ
Upt i ght (pg. 1 4 ) . Shor t l y a f t e r t h a t t hey h i t a t r a i l and
t ur ned t owards t he r i g h t (pg. 1 4 ) .
( 2 ) Movement t hrough vi l l age' s.
A s t he company was moving t h e wi t nes s
r e c a l l e d cornrnunicatimfrom t h e f i r s t pl at oon i ndi c a t i ng
t h a t t hey had seen some peopl e moving on t h e ot he r s i d e
(MERCER)
2 SUM APP T-349
(pg. 1 4 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l whet her t hey were
supposed t o c r os s t he br i dge o r sweep t h e s i d e t hey were
on ( pgs. 15, 1 6 ) . He d i d not r e c a l l t he a c t i v i t i e s of t he
f i r s t pl at oon t h a t day (pg. 1 6 ) . H e r e c a l l e d a r e p o r t
coming i n of KI A and s t a t e d t h a t MICHLES c a l l e d back sayi ng
"Don' t be k i l l i n g i nnocent peopl e" (pg. 1 7 ) . The wi t nes s
s t a t e d t h a t t hey di d not c r os s t h e br i dge t h a t day
(pg. 1 8 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t he r e c a l l e d making a t r ans mi s s i on
t o t h e f i r s t pl at oon i ndi c a t i ng t h a t t hey shoul d go back
and s ear ch a v i l l a g e (pg. 1 9 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t t hey
r ecei ved a r e p o r t i ndi c a t i ng t h a t s ni pe r f i r e was r ecei ved
on t h e way t o a v i l l a g e (pg. 20) . A l a t e r r e p o r t came i n
i ndi c a t i ng t h a t more peopl e w e r e k i l l e d and t h e wi t nes s
s t a t e d t h a t MICHLES wanted t o know who t hey were k i l l i n g
(pg. 21) . There w a s a r e que s t r ecei ved f o r Shar ks, t o
which MICHLESreplied "You ought t o be a bl e t o maneuver i n
t he r e and g e t t h a t s ni pe r " (pg. 21) . MICHLES t o l d
WI LLI NGHAM t h a t i f necessar y he would go up and "show him
how i t was done" (pg. 2 1 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l
a message t o b a t t a l i o n i ndi c a t i ng t h a t t h e r e were no women
and c hi l dr e n k i l l e d (pg. 2 1 ) . The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d cr os s i ng
t hrough a v i l l a g e and s eei ng some bodi es , which were
"puf f ed up" (pg. 22) . He s t a t e d t he peopl e s t ood around t he
v i l l a g e whi l e t hey sear ched it (pg. 23) . The v i l l a g e was
l ocat ed a good di s t a nc e from where t he bodi es were (pg. 23).
( 3 ) Pr esence of a phot ographer.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d a phot ographer coming
i n t o B Company on t he morning of 16 March (pg. 23) . H e
s t a t e d t h a t t h e phot ographer t ook pi c t ur e s (pg. 2 4 ) .
( 4 ) Pr i s oner s .
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t he pr i s one r s
depi ct ed i n Exhi bi t P-18 would have been t aken p r i o r t o
t he l i nk up wi t h C Company because t hey were bei ng guarded
by HUFFMAN ( pgs. 23, 2 4 ) .
( 5 ) Ni ght l aager pos i t i on.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he r epl aced t h e RTO
of t he second pl at oon t h a t ni ght (pg. 27). H e s t ayed wi t h
t he second pl at oon f o r t he remai nder of t h e oper at i on
(pg. 28) . He r e c a l l e d t h a t dur i ng t h e eveni ng pr i s one r s
(MERCER) 3 SUM APP T-349
w e r e s e n t i n on a he l i c opt e r (pg. 28) . H e s t a t e d t h a t
t hey l aager ed i n a sandy s pot i n t he mi ddl e of open
r i c e paddi es (pg. 31). He d i d n o t r e c a l l s eei ng any
ARVN per sonnel (pg. 31) . He r e c a l l e d some a c t i v i t y i n
t he r i c e paddy dur i ng t h e eveni ng but coul d not r e c a l l
i f itw a s f i r e d upon ( pgs. 32, 33).
b. Ac t i v i t i e s on 17 March.
(1) Movement dur i ng t h e day.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d t h a t t hey j oi ned up wi t h
t h e second pl at oon (pg. 18). He a l s o r e c a l l e d t h a t
Li eut enant LEWIS and a r e por t e r came i n t h a t day ( pg. 29) .
The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l t he or der of march l eadi ng
t o t he br i dge b u t s t a t e d t h a t t h e weapons pl at oon probabl y
br ought up the r e a r ( pg. 35) . H e hear d t he mine goi ng of f
when TAYLOR was wounded b u t d i d not s e e itbecause t hey
were s t i l l on t he t r a i l wi t h t h e i r v i s i o n bl ocked by
hedgerows ( pgs. 35, 36). He s t a t e d he r e c a l l e d t h a t
MICHLES spoke wi t h t he f i r s t pl at oon and t o l d them t o
check t he br i dge ( pg. 36). He did not hear any f i r i n g
s t a r t when t he mine went of f (pg. 3 7 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d
t h a t a s t hey cr ossed t he br i dge t h e mines were i ndi c a t e d
wi t h t i s s u e paper (pg. 37). The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he hear d
"a l o t of f i r i n g " which he t hought was f l us hi ng a s ni pe r
out (pg. 38). That qui et ed of f and t hen began agai n
(pg. 38) . He di d not r e c a l l gunshi ps coming i n bef or e t hey
cr ossed t h e br i dge (pg. 39) . H e s t a t e d t h a t he saw bodi es
near t he br i dge (pg. 39). (These may be t he same bodi es
t he wi t nes s r epor t ed s eei ng on 16 March). The bodi es were
l ocat ed c l os e t o t h e br i dge t o t he r i g h t of t he t r a i l which
l e d t o t h e s e a (pg. 39) . He s t a t e d he saw f our t o f i v e
bodi es most of whom were men, wi t h one woman (pg. 4 0 ) .
He a l s o s t a t e d t h a t he saw a number of mounds i n t he a r e a
which he di d not t hi nk were f r e s hl y dug gr aves because
t he r e were f o o t p r i n t s on them ( pgs. 4 0 , 4 1 ) . The bodi es
were al r eady swollenand t ur ned bl ack (pg. 4 2 ) .
( 2 ) Pr esence of a phot ogr apher .
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t a phot ographer o r a
r e por t e r came i n s h o r t l y a f t e r t hey cr os s ed t h e br i dge
(pg. 43) . Li eut enant MUNDY a l s o came o u t t h a t day b u t
di d not t r a v e l wi t h them (pg. 4 4 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not
(MERCER) 4 SUM APP T-349
know i f MUNDY saw t h e bodies (pg. 4 4 ) .
( 3) Movement t o t h e beach.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t as t hey moved some
s ni pe r f i r e w a s r ecei ved and when itst opped t hey cont i nued
t h e i r movement (pgs. 4 4 , 45) . As t hey near ed t he beach
t hey s a w some sampans which had been headi ng t owards t he
beach b u t which t ur ned and went back t o open wat er s
when t he company came i n t o s i t e (pg. 45) . H e s t a t e d t hey
encount er ed a young man who r a n and w a s f i r e d upon
(pg. 45) . They d i d not k i l l him and he went and hi d i n t a l l
gr as s (pg. 45) . Af t er t h i s i nc i de nt t hey moved t o t h e end
of t he beach (pg. 45). He s t a t e d t h a t t h e f i r s t pl at oon
burned t he v i l l a g e , i n which he had s een t h e bodi es
(pg. 45) . He a l s o s t a t e d t h a t t hey encount er ed a s mal l
v i l l a g e wi t h q u i t e a few peopl e i n it ( pgs. 45, 4 6 ) . H e
des cr i bed t he l oc a t i on of t h e v i l l a g e a s bei ng on a f i nge r
poi nt (pg. 4 6 ) . When t hey l e f t t h a t v i l l a g e itwas s t i l l
s t andi ng and had not been burned (pg. 4 6 ) . H e s t a t e d
t h a t t hey saw a l a r ge f i r e over t o t h e west a s t hey were
r e t ur ni ng (pg. 4 7 ) . Thi s was t o t h e l e f t acr os s t h e
waterway (pg. 47) . There was a l s o a l o t of s hoot i ng
coming from t h a t v i l l a g e (pg. 47) . The u n i t headed back
towards t h e br i dge (pg. 48) . The wi t nes s di d not s e e any
peopl e i n e i t h e r of t he v i l l a g e s t h a t t hey passed t hrough
t h a t day (pg. 48) . He di d r e c a l l one bl i nd man who was
encount er ed b u t was l e f t al one ( pgs. 48, 4 9 ) .
( 4 ) Peopl e f l e e i ng i n t he r i v e r .
The wi t nes s des cr i bed an i nc i de nt i n which
a number of peopl e swam acr os s t h e r i v e r and evaded t h e CP
group a s w e l l a s t he f i r s t and second pl at oons (pg. 4 9 ) .
The u n i t nad k e n c a l l e d back t o t h e r i v e r from t h e i r
l a a ge r a r e a (pg. 50) . There were 20 t o 30 peopl e who swam
acr os s t h e r i v e r ( pgs. 50, 51). He s t a t e d t h a t t hey were
young peopl e and were dr es s ed i n s o l i d bl ack (pg. 51) .
( 5) Ni ght l aager pos i t i on.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he di d not r e c a l l
anyt hi ng p a r t i c u l a r happeni ng on t h e eveni ng of 17 March
(pg. 51) .
(MERCER)
SUM APP T-349
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18March.
(1) Movement of t h e u n i t .
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d encount er i ng a l a r ge
cache of r i c e because a s er geant t o l d Li eut enant LEWIS
t h a t he was supposed t o c a r r y it ( pgs. 51, 5 2 ) . H e
s t a t e d t h a t t hey a l s o found some mor t ar rounds t h a t had
not been expl oded (pg.52). A s t hey moved nor t h t hey
encount er ed some peopl e i n t h e v i l l a g e ( pg. 53) . They
were supposed t o s ecur e t h e beach l i n e and "check o u t t he
sampans" (pg. 53) . One pl at oon was on t he s hor e l i n e ,
one went up t h e mi ddl e, and one went up t h e s i d e (pg. 53) .
They s e n t t h e peopl e t h a t t hey encount er ed back f o r
MEDCAP and i nt e r r oga t i on (pgs. 53, 54).
( 2 ) ,Lnt er r ogat i on of t he peopl e.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t Capt ai n KOTOUC,
car r yi ng a land l i n e phone came i n wi t h one Vietnamese
and i nt e r r oga t e d some peopl e (pg. 56) . H e s t a t e d t h a t one
"messed h i s br i t c he s " (pg. 5 6 ) . Thi s was t he onl y
i nt e r r oga t i on t h a t he saw t h a t day (pg. 57) .
The wi t nes s des cr i bed t he per i met er of t he
l aager pos i t i on a s havi ng t h e second pl at oon on t he l e f t ,
t he t h i r d pl at oon i n t he c e nt e r , and t hen t he f i r s t pl at oon
(pg. 57). The back was t owards t he ocean (pg. 57). The
wi t nes s r e c a l l e d . t h e mor t ar a t t a c k and t h e pr esence of
Spooky (pg. 5 8 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l any smal l
arms f i r e dur i ng t h e mor t ar a t t a c k , but he s t a t e d t h a t
t hey r et ur ned some f i r e (pg. 5 9 ) .
Ac t i v i t i e s on 19 March.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he saw t he pr i s one r s bei ng
i nt e r r oga t e d and one bei ng t aken t o t he ocean (pg. 59) .
(MERCER)
6 SUM APP T-349
h
4. INQUIRIES CONCERNING THE ASSAULT.
The wi t nes s was not quest i oned about t he oper at i on
(pg. 62) . H e s t a t e d t h a t he hear d rumors t h a t one company
w a s "ki cked o u t of Task Force Barker" because t hey had
"more o r less wi ped. o u t a vi l l a ge . " He di d not r e c a l l
whether itwast'C Company o r D Company"(pg.65) . He had
been t o l d t h i s one or two weeks a f t e r t he oper at i on by
some members of t h e company (pgs. 6 5 , 66) . Ser geant
MCCLOUD t o l d him t h e same s t or y( pg. 66) . The wi t nes s
was never t o l d not t o di s c us s t h e oper at i on (pg. 66) .
a . The wi t nes s r epor t ed t h a t MICHLES s t r e s s e d t he f a c t
t o t he pl at oon l e a de r s t h a t c i v i l i a n s were not t o be harmed
(pg. 33)-
b . The wi t nes s r epor t ed t h a t he had gi ven f our r o l l s
of e i g h t mi l l i met er movie f i l m t o a man named " Wi l l i e BESS', who
was i n t h e company r e a r , t o mai l f o r him ( pgs. 6 2 , 6 4 ) .
The f i l m cont ai ned some views of a t r o c i t i e s , and when
t he wi t nes s onl y r ecei ved one r o l l back wi t h ha l f " bl ot t e d
out " , he presumed t h a t Kodak had t ur ned itover t o t h e '
government (pg. 63) .
c. The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t "pot " was a problem i n
t he company, b u t was not t aken out on oper at i ons (pg. 6 9 ) .
SUM APP T-349
EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT
NUMBER DESCRIPTION NOTES .-- PAGES
1 i W i t had r e c e i v e d I
one. 2
MACV Card "The Enemy
-
i n
M- 3 Your Hands"
W i t d i d n o t r e c a l l . 2
Tr a n s c r i p t of TF Bar ker
Transmi ssi ons re-
M-20 t a p e
q a r d i n s t h e
a r t i l l e r y pr e p w e r e
-
r e a d . t o wi t nes s .
7
Wit l d e n t l r l e a
-
-
Mi s cel l aneous Scene
.PLACEK and HOFFMAN
23
guar di ng Vi e t n a me s ~
I I
I W i t r ecogni zed the1
I Mi scel l aneous Scene
I peopl e b u t d i d n o t 24
( know where h e saw
them.
W i t d i d n o t r e c a l l
P-20 Mi scel l aneous Scene a r t i l l e r y be i ng 7 1 8
f i r e d i n t o t h e LZ
a s t he y approached
W i t r ecogni zed t h e 25
man wi t hout a
I hel met and h i s
I
1- i n t e r p r e t e r , b u t I
---I- I
I d i d n o t know h i s
name.
-
W i t r ecogni zed t he
-
Mi scel l aneous Scene i n t e r r o g a t o r s . 25
W i t s t a t e d t h a t
P-22
Mi scel l aneous Scene
h~ d i d n o t know 26
where itwas b u t
t- he w a s t h e r e ]
1 W i t i d e n t i f i e d
-
M i W e o u s Scene
hi ms el f on t h e ' 26
ext r eme r i g h t ,
b u t di d n o t know
where i t was
t a ke n.
(MERCER)
SUM APP T- 349
EXHIBITS
EXHI BI T
P-52
I ndi vi dua l phot o of ' W i t i d e n t i f i e d a s
CPT KOTOUC
t he i nt e r r oga t or 56, 60
on 18 and 1 Y Marcn.
Ae r i a l phot o, Son My Used t o o r i e n t t he
P-168 v i l l a g e , c o a s t a l complex wi t nes s . 8
W i t r ecogni zed t he
-
a r e a but coul d not 8
r e c a l l f l r e I n t he
LZ.
W i t dl d not r e c a l l
P- 207 Mi scel l aneous Scene
a r t i l l e r y bei ng
Pinto
7 , 8 as t hey came i n .
W i t recognized t he
P-208
27, 28
pr i s one r s and
s t a t e d ltwas near
t he CP.
W i t l d e n t l t l e d as
P-212
46
t he v i l l a g e which-
was on a linger 01
l and.
U s e d t o o r l e n t
MAP-4 Map 6739 I1
t he wi t nes s . 8
9
SUM APP T-349
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 0930 hours, 9 Feb-
ruary, 1 970. )
COL WILSON: The hear i ng w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR : The fol l owi ng named persons a r e pr es ent : cOL
WILSON, LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
The next wi t ness i s M r . Leon R. MERCER
(MR MERCER was c a l l e d as a wi t ness, was sworn,
and t e s t i f i e d a s follows : )
RCDR : Pl eas e s t a t e your f u l l name, occupat i on and
resi dence?
A. My f u l l name i s Leon Randal MERCER. My oc-
cupat i on i s heavy equipment oper at or . I ' m l i v i n g r i g h t
now i n Okeechobee, Fl or i da. The address i s Bl uef i el d
Road, Route 1.
COL WILSON: Mr . MERCER, di d you have a chance t o read
Exhi bi t M- 81?
A. Right.
COL WILSON: What was your job i n B/4/3 on t he 16t h of
March 1968?
A. I c a r r i e d a r adi o f o r a l ong time.
Q. Which ne t was t h i s ?
A. I was j us t on t he company net .
Q Were you wi t h t he 11t h Brigade i n Hawaii?
A. Ri ght , si r . I was s e nt over t her e. I don' t
remember t he dat e I got s e nt over t her e. There was a
whole bunch of us t h a t got s e nt over t her e. They took
a l l of us and put it i n t he r e and brought it up t o
s t r engt h. We took a l o t of t r a i ni ng over t her e and we
we,e s e nt over t her e.
Q During your mi l i t a r y t r a i ni ng, a t any time
di d you r e c a l l ever qe t t i ng a c l a s s on t he s ubj ect of
(MERCER) 1 APP T-349
l e g a l ver s us i l l e g a l or der s ?
A. No, si r. I don' t be l i e ve we di d. I don' t re-
member t h a t .
Q Thi s c l a s s pr obabl y would have come t hrough
at a t i m e when mi l i t a r y j u s t i c e w a s bei ng t a ught o r the
Geneva Convent i on o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
A. I d o n ' t remember t h a t , sir.
Q I have two e xhi bi t s . One Exhi bi t M-2 e n t i -
t l e d , "Nine Rul es. " I t ' s a MACV car d, a wal l et - s i zed
car d. Have you e ve r s een t h a t ? A f acs i mi l e copy.
A. I be l i e ve I have, sir. I be l i e ve we got one.
W e l l , I ' m p r e t t y s ur e we got one bef or e we got s e n t over .
W e had t o g e t a l o t of car ds and some s t u f f l i k e t h i s .
I f t h i s i s t he same one.
Q W a s t h i s i n Hawaii?
A. Y e s , si r. J u s t bef or e we got s e n t over t o
'Nam.
Q The next e x h i b i t i s Exhi bi t M-3 e n t i t l e d
"The Enemy I n Your Hands." Have you e ve r seen t h a t car d?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l one l i k e t h i s .
Q I want you t o t hi nk back t o t he 15t h of
March. The oper at i on t h a t I ' m t a l k i n g about was dur -
i n g t he per i od 16-19 March. Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d
on t he f i r s t day. MILUS was k i l l e d on t h e l a s t ni ght .
That ' s t h e oper at i on. Now, t h e day bef or e t h a t oper at i on
t ook pl ace- , I want you t o t hi nk back and t e l l me who t o l d
you t h e oper at i on was coming o f f and what was s a i d?
A. W e l l , t h e onl y t i m e we knew we w a s goi ng on an
oper at i on t h a t day wa s when we moved out . We would
s t a y on t he f i r e base maybe 2 o r 3 days and t hey would
f l y us out . I f I'n not mistaken, on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
day, we knew i t t he n i g h t bef or e when t hey t o l d us t o be
ready t o move out t h e f ol l owi ng morning. W e was goi ng
on a s ear ch and c l e a r o r s ear ch and des t r oy. I don' t
remember j u s t which mi ssi on i t was and what t hey named it.
0
We got CA'd out . W e no sooner g o t of f t he choppers--
Q . ( I nt er pos i ng) W a i t . I want t o t r y t o s t i c k
t o t h e b r i e f i n g . What else di d t hey t e l l YOU? Who t o l d
you t h i s ?
A. That would come down--well a t t h a t t i m e I w a s
wi t h t he company commander. He j u s t t o l d us t h a t we would
be goi ng o u t tomorrow on t h e oper at i on and supposed t o
l a s t maybe a coupl e o r 3 days o r somet hi ng and g e t your
gear r eady.
Q Was t h e r e anybody e l s e t h e r e when he t o l d you
t h i s ?
A. There w a s what t hey c a l l e d t he CP group which
was t h e medic, and two more, anot her RTO. Then t h e r e was
a s er geant t he r e who was i n char ge of us.
Q You woul dn' t have got t e n t h i s i n any of t h e
pl at oon l e a de r s ' meet i ngs?
A. Oh, no, si r. W e d i d n ' t have a pl at oon meet i ng
l i k e t h a t because we was j u s t around him and what i nforma-
t i o n he wanted t o t e l l us, t h a t was what he t o l d us .
Q How many r adi os d i d you have i n t he CP?
A. I n t he f i e l d we had two: t he company and t h e
b a t t a l i o n ne t .
Q No s par es ?
A. No, si r. W e d i d n ' t c a r r y no s pa r e s . There
wa s normal l y two r a di os i n each pl at oon: one f o r t h e l i e u-
t e na nt and one f o r t he s er geant . The r eason we d i d n ' t
want t o c a r r y s pa r e s w a s a c t u a l l y we d i d n ' t have no pl ace
t o car r y them wi t h ever yt hi ng else.
Q - Any i n s t r u c t i o n s passed o u t about t h e des t r uc-
t i o n of v i l l a g e s , bur ni ng of houses and s o f or t h?
A. Y e s , si r. When we would go t hrough a v i l l a g e
t hey would t e l l us i f it w a s s ear ch and de s t r oy. When we
went i n t o a v i l l a g e i f it was cons i der ed a f r i e ndl y v i l -
l age we d i d n ' t bot her not hi ng. W e j u s t s ear ched i t and
go on.
I f it was on s e a r c h and des t r oy, which nor mal l y t hey would
send us i n t he r e i f t he peopl e wasn ' t f r i e ndl y and expect ed
somet hi ng. Normally t h e r e was n' t anybody i n t he r e when we
got i n t h e r e except a few o l d peopl e who c oul dn' t wal k. W e
would just go ahead and bur n t he pl aces down l i k e we we r e .
t o l d and move on.
Q What d i d you do wi t h t h e o l d peopl e?
A. Le f t them t he r e .
Q Do you r e c a l l i f t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on- -
what do you mean you l e f t them t he r e ?
A. We l e f t them t he r e j u s t l i k e we found them.
I f t hey w a s out s i de around a . we l l o r somet hi ng o r i n one
of them hoot ches i n t he ground we would go i n t h e r e and
s ear ch t h a t and l e a ve them t he r e . Maybe t hey would put
them i n t h e c e nt e r and t a l k t o them o r t r y t o f i n d out
somet hi ng and we' d move on. I f t hey was young o r some-
t hi ng we would have them s e n t back i n t o i n v e s t i g a t e o r
t a l k t o them.
Q Thi s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on, you' ve gi ven me I
t hi nk normal pr ocedur e. For t h i s p a r t i c u l a r ope r a t i on,
w e r e any s p e c i a l i n s t r u c t i o n s i s s ued?
A. Not t hen. Li ke I say. He t o l d us t o g e t our
gear t oge t he r , t h a t we was goi ng t o be CA'd. That was it.
Q Did you know where you were goi ng?
A. He would s ay somet hi ng about - - I ' d cat ch some-
t hi ng about t e l l i n g one of t h e o f f i c e r s somet hi ng l i k e
t h a t , but I d i d n ' t know where we was goi ng u n t i l we l anded.
You know t h e r e i s goi ng t o be rumors around about where
we was goi ng b u t none of them was har dl y accur at e. I 'd
s ay t h a t .
Q But you d i d n ' t know what t he enemy s i t u a t i o n
wa s down t he r e ?
A. W e d i d n ' t know whet her t he r e was goi ng t o be
a b a t t a l i o n o r a cbmpany j u s t a few o r j u s t go out and
f i n d what was t he r e .
(MERCER) 4 APP T- 349
Q Do you know what t h e ot he r pl at oons w e r e sup-
posed t o do?
A. Not r e a l l y . H e would t e l l them, "You go and
t ake t h i s a r e a her e. " The o t h e r would be more o r l e s s
l i k e drawi ng a l i n e and s ear chi ng and f i n d what you coul d
f i nd.
Q A l l r i g h t . I n r egar ds t o t h a t oper at i on t h a t
f ol l owi ng day, what l i f t were you i n ?
A. I t hi nk we wa s i n what w e c a l l e d t h e second
s o r t i e , I be l i e ve . That l i f t t h a t we went i n t he whole--
t h e capt ai n went o u t on t h e f i r s t l i f t and t hen we went
out on t he fi rst l i f t . Li eut enant COCHRAN1s pl at oon went
out wi t h us. H e l anded and t hen we l anded.
Q The CP and t he 2d Pl at oon? Where was t he mor-
t ar pl at oon?
A. They ha dn' t even come out y e t .
Q - You a r e s ur e t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s wi t h
you a l l ?
A. H e w a s wi t h t he pl at oon t h a t l anded wi t h us.
I ' m p r e t t y s ur e of t h a t because t hey no sooner got on
t he ground when t hey s t a r t e d moving out . By t h a t t i m e
t he r e s t of t h e choppers had s t a r t e d coming i n . They was
jumping o f f . They ha dn' t even got t e n t i me t o g e t o u t
of the way of t h e choppers bef or e t h e f i r s t c a s ua l t y
took pl ace. The pl at oon had j u s t s t a r t e d t o go out , move
out . They had a l i t t l e rise t o go up, i n ot he r words, go
down and come up and t h a t ' s t he way he chose t o go. W e
hear d a l oud expl os i on. I t d i d n ' t happen 50 t o 75
met ers from where t h e CP was a t t h a t t i m e .
Q- Who s ecur ed t h e l andi ng zone f o r t h e 2d
Pl at oon?
A. They would always go i n and pr ep t h e pl ace.
They would r un t h e Sharks over it and g e t it ready f o r
us. A l o t of t i m e s i f it was supposed t o be a r e a l hot
LZ t hey ke pt Shar ks over us a l l t h e t i m e . I n o t h e r words,
a coupl e of pl at oons would l and and t hey would s ecur e t h e LZ.
Q So t he 2d Pl at oon d i d n ' t s t a y t h e r e a t a l l ? ~t
s t a r t e d movement as soon as it h i t t h e ground?
A. Ri ght . A s soon as t h e men got of f t h a t l i f t , and
t he o l d man g o t down, we we r e goi ng t o move out t o s ecur e
t he LZ. Tha t ' s t h e morning when t h e l i e ut e na nt got it.
LTC NOLL: Was t h e second l i f t on t h e ground when he was
h i t by t h e mine o r s t epped on t h e mine?
A. I know a l l h i s pl at oon wa s t h e r e and t h e o t h e r was
j u s t coming i n t o l and. They just about had t he whole company
a t t h a t t i me i n t h e choppers on t h e way t he r e . They d i d n ' t
have t o go back and come agai n. A l l of us was i n t he a i r a t
t h e t i m e .
COL WILSON: Was t h e r e any f i r i n g when you went i ' n?
A. Not a b i t .
Q Did any devel op whi l e--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Not dur i ng t h a t per i od. W e di dn' t
f i r e a s hot . There wa s n' t a s hot f i r e d up unt i l - - wel l , t he
onl y t hi ng we hear d was t h a t expl osi on and t h a t w a s it. W e
di dn' t r e c e i ve no f i r e and we d i d n ' t r e t u r n none. There wasn 't
nobody t h e r e , a c t ua l l y. There wasn ' t anybody har dl y u n t i l we
got where o l d MI L US got k i l l e d . We r an i n t o one v i l l a g e .
Q The doorgunners we r e n' t f i r i n g when you went i n ?
A. No, si r .
Q Do you remember havi ng t o make a go-around?
A. Go-around? Do you mean c i r c l e it bef or e we went
i n ? No, si r. W e d i d n ' t because when we t ook of f t h e Sharks
w e r e c i r c l i n g t h e a r e a and j u s t before--when t hey s een us
coming t hey s t a r t e d s t r a f i n g t he ar ea. They d i d n ' t put out
no fire on t h a t l andi ng.
LTC NOLL: D o you know i f t he r e was an a r t i l l e r y pr epar at i on?
A. No, si r. I don' t know about t h a t . I n t h a t pl ace
t h a t we l anded t h e r e was a t r a i l r unni ng up t hr ough. It went
acr os s a cr eek and t h a t ' s where one of our poi nt men got h i s
FOR OFFI_CIAL USE ONLY
f oot blowed of f . W e landed t her e. I don' t r e c a l l no f i r e ,
except t h a t it was put i n t he r e bef or e us. J u s t bef or e we s i t
down t he r e was a pr ep by t he Sharks. The machinegunners on
t he ot her choppers were ready, but t he r e wasn' t any need f o r
them. There was n' t any s hot s f i r e d when we went i n .
COL WILSON: Let me gi ve you something from Exhi bi t M-20
which i s a t ape recordi ng of a communication between t h e com-
mand elements t h a t morning. Coyote i s t a l ki ng t o Dolphin Lead.
He says, " Ar t i l l e r y prep i s s t a r t e d. Should go on schedul e.
You shoul d touch down a t 0815."
A. Did t h a t come over ba t t a l i on net ?
Q- That i s cor r ect .
A. I t was t he ot he r RTO t hen.
Q - That i s cor r ect . I ' m t r yi ng t o r e c a l l something
t o your mind. Dolphin Lead t o Coyote 6 says l a t e r , t he per i od L
of t i m e I don' t have: " I had t o make a go-around because t he
a r t i l l e r y was s t i l l shoot i ng whi l e I was on my approach, and
d i d n ' t want t o l and i n t her e whi l e it was going." Coyote 6 ,
"Roger, rounds complete. "
' A. That prep was on t he day Li eut enant COCHRAN got
killed? I don' t remember no a r t i l l e r y f i r e , no pr ep on t h a t
LZ .
Q Dolphin Lead t o Coyote 6 a few minutes l a t e r ,
"This completes your l i f t f or t h i s morning. We onl y had one
problem and t h a t was t h a t t he a r t i l l e r y d i d n ' t ge t s hut of f
i n time. " Coyote 6 affi rmed and s a i d it was a minute l a t e
cut t i ng o f f .
A. I don I t remember no pr ep bei ng f i r e d i n t her e whi l e
we was l andi ng.
Q Do you remember t he Sharks? Remember t he gunships
going i n?
A. Oh, yes, si r. We could s e e them make t h e i r runs a s we
wa s coming through.
Q These two photographs, Exhi bi t s P-20 and P-207, show
f i r e going i n t o what i s supposed t o be cl os e by o r on your l and-
i n g zone. Do you r ecogni ze them?
A. Thi s i s t h e same LZ t h a t we l anded on?
Q I don' t know. I t hi nk from my i nf or mat i on it wa' s
e i t h e r t h e l andi ng zone o r c l os e by t he l andi ng zone.
A. It coul d have been c l os e by t he l andi ng zone because
t hey pr epped one area r i g h t over from us r i g h t s h o r t l y a f t e r
we h i t t h e ground.
Q - These phot ogr aphs w e r e t aken i n f l i g h t e n r out e t o
t h e l andi ng zone.
A. I don' t remember them pr eppi ng t he a r e a bef or e we
l anded.
Q That i s not ne c e s s a r i l y a pr ep her e. Thi s coul d very
we l l be r ocket s .
A. It coul d have come from t h e gunshi ps.
Q I ' m not t r y i n g t o pi n you down as t o whet her t he r e
w a s a pr ep o r not . What I'm t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t i s , do you re-
member t h i s ar ea? Does t h i s l ook f a mi l i a r t o you?
A. W e l l , t h a t ' s har d f o r me t o s ay. A l l of it l ooked
t h e same t o me .
Q - Ther e ' s not hi ng t he r e t h a t l ooks- - t hat you would
remember? Do you remember t h e col or ed smoke on t he ground when
you came i n t h a t day? Marker?
A. There w a s some smoke coming up but I d o n ' t remember
i f i t was t h i s l avender o r yel l ow o r what. Thi s wat er on t h i s
l a s t p i c t u r e , t h i s P-206, I remember t h e w a t e r and a l l t h i s ,
b u t t h e f i r e i s what I c a n ' t pl ace. I j u s t c a n ' t r e c a l l any
except t he r a t e t h e gunshi ps put o u t bef or e we set down.
Q Exhi bi t MAP-4. I ' m goi ng t o p o i n t o u t where we
t hi nk your l andi ng zone wa s . Thi s gr aveyar d her e. W e t hi nk
you l anded i n her e somewhere and t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN was
k i l l e d up her e. Now, her e i s t h e br i dge.
A. W e l l , we l anded j u s t I ' d say about 500 t o 600 met er s
,
(ME:RCER) 8 APP T-349
.FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
t o t h e l e f t of t h e br i dge and t he r e was a gr aveyar d t he r e . A t
t h a t t i m e , I d o n ' t remember because t h e r e wa s a t r a i l coming up
and t h e r e w a s some o l d bar bed w i r e s t u f f t hey had l a yi ng out
t her e. The choppers c oul dn' t see it and set down f o r us t o g e t
o f f because i f t hey d i d n ' t it would p u l l up i n pl ace. They coul d
g e t as c l os e as t hey coul d and t h a t day we had t o i m p o u t of t h e
choppers.
Q There i s one t r a i l t h a t shows on t h e map he r e t h a t
i s 521, which i s t h a t main t r a i l . It came i n a l l t h e way acr os s
t h e ar ea. Thi s i s t h e t r a i l , p a r t of which went over t h a t
br i dge, and pr obabl y t h e t r a i l t h a t you would have fol l owed
goi ng t o t he br i dge t he next day.
A. W e went up a t r a i l t he next day.
Q Now, i s t h a t t h e same t r a i l you a r e t a l k i n g about ?
Do you remember t h a t t r a i l you went up?
A. Ri ght . I remember t h a t t r a i l .
(4
Q How f a r w a s t he CP from t h e t r a i l t h a t day?
A. W e l anded j u s t a few f e e t from t he t r a i l .
Q And t h a t i s where t h e CP set up?
A. No, we d i d n ' t set up. When we l anded we moved o u t
j u s t a l i t t l e ways from where we l anded. W e moved up and t h e r e
was some l i t t l e o l d pi nes t he r e . W e were s e t t i n g up t h e r e
wai t i ng f o r everybody t o g e t t he r e s o we coul d s t ar t t h e op-
e r a t i ons .
Q W e l l , t h e 2d Pl at oon had moved o f f by t hen?
A. Ri ght . They w a s . goi ng t o go out and secur e- - I know
what t hey was goi ng t o do. They was goi ng t o s ecur e t h e o l d
man. Because I d o n ' t blame them. Tha t ' s where--going up t h a t
l i t t l e bank was where he got it. Act ual l y by. t h e t i me he s t a r t -
ed moving o u t everybody was coming i n on t he ground. Choppers
was t a ki ng o f f and one of t h e s o r t i e s pi cked him up.
Q Was Li eut enant COCHRAN k i l l e d on t he s out h o r on
t he nor t h s i d e of t h a t t r a i l ?
A. I ' d s a y we come i n on t h e t r a i l l i k e t h i s . The
(MERCER) ' 9 APP T-349
t r a i l w a s r unni ng her e.
Q When you' got o f f t he h e l i c o p t e r you shoul d have beer
headi ng due nor t h back t oward Upt i ght ? u p t i g h t wa s due nor t h?
A. Ri ght . That ' s t h e same way we l anded. W e l anded ax
t h a t ' s t h e way we got o f f . Li eut enant COCHRAN s t a r t e d o f f t o
t h e r i g h t and moved up forward.
Q. Did he c r os s t h e t r a i l ?
A. Ri ght , si r. H e wa s acr os s t h a t t r a i l . H e was head6
back up t owards Upt i ght .
Q. Now we want t o f i x t h i s , as w e l l as pos s i bl e , and
w e ' l l go from t h i s map t o t h e aeri al phot ograph. The same l oc;
t i o n on t h e a e r i a l phot ograph which i s ~ x h i b i tP-168. Go back
t o t h i s map, he r e , j u s t f o r gener al o r i e n t a t i o n .
( Col onel WILSON or i e nt e d t he wi t nes s on Exhi bi t MAP-
and Exhi bi t P-168.)
COL WILSON: The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t he company commanderfs
he l i c opt e r l anded j u s t s out h of t h e t r a i l . Ri ght by t h e t r a i l ,
we be l i e ve it w a s 521, and t h e 2d Pl at oon moved of f r i g h t away,
The sequence o f event s t he r e accor di ng t o t h e l og,
( r e f e r r i n g t o Exhi bi t M-16) t h e f i r s t l i f t touchdown wa s 0815.
That would have been your lift. The second l i f t touchdown was
a t 0827. Two l i f t s . Li eut enant COCHRAN was wounded a t 0845.
A. I d o n ' t know about t h e t i me t h e r e when we a l l landec
Q We're j u s t t r y i n g t o g e t t h e t i m e s f i xed. Thi s i s
what t h e l og s ays . Somebody was r e por t i ng t h i s i nf or mat i on
back t o Task Force Barker.
A. I know a f t e r we w a s on t h e ground t he c a pt a i n would
c a l l back and t e l l t h a t t he s o r t i e w a s compl et e, "Now s t a r t i n g
ope r a t i on, " or somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q That i s t h e sequence of event s . That t a ke s you up
t o t h e t i me Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d , t h a t ' s about 0845.
1st Pl at oon came i n on t h e second l i f t , you say?
A. I be l i e ve it w a s t h e second o r it coul d have been
(MERCER) 10
APP T-349
another.
Q D i d you not i ce which way t hey went?
A. No, si r, I di dn' t .
Q They went over toward t h e br i dge and cr ossed t he
r i ve r .
A. Well, I know t h a t , bef or e t he day ended, bef or e
we l aagered i n t h a t ni ght , t hey were headed towards t he bri dge.
I don' t know i f as soon as t hey got of f t he choppers t hey
s t a r t e d t h a t way o r not . I don' t remember t h a t because a l l
t h a t was t o l d t o them before t hey ever h i t t he ground.
Q Af t er Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d you don' t r e-
member what t he 1st Pl at oon di d?
A. No, si r.
Q Do you remember anyt hi ng e l s e happening?
A. A l l I know t he r e was a scramble t o g e t over t he r e
and f i nd out i f he was r e a l l y dead o r what happened, bef or e t h a t
pl at oon o r t he company CP moved he was evac' d.
Q Pr e t t y f a s t ?
A. Yes. The chopper was j us t about r i g h t overhead of
us. He s e t down and took him out . Then we got h i s per sonal
bel ongi ngs we brought over and I c a r r i e d them. So t h a t ni ght
when we got r es uppl i ed, I set it on a chopper on i n .
LTC NOLL: Did t hey t ake a l l t he wounded on t h a t chopper o r di d
t hey j us t t ake him?
A. Well a t t h a t time t he r e r e a l l y wasn' t t oo many hur t
t h a t bad t o have them evac' d t h a t qui ck. I t hi nk somebody s a i d
one of them had j us t got t en a smal l fragment i n t he arm o r
something.
Q One chopper you onl y had Li eut enant COCHRAN on it.
A. Right. A s f a r a s I can remember, j u s t Li eut enant
COCHRAN got on t h a t chopper.
COL WILSON: About 45 minutes l a t e r a second mine was de-
t onat ed. A t t h a t time t he r e were t hr e e wounded.
A. I ' m t r yi ng t o t hi nk of t he boys1 names.
Q I can give some names of people t h a t were wounded
t h a t day, if t h a t would hel p you any.
A. It would.
Q On t he 16t h: COCHRAN, WILBURN, CANTU, HITCHMAN,
TRAVERSA, SHIFLEY.
A. Right. That morning we about l o s t t he whole pl a-
t oon on t h a t one l i t t l e go up on t h a t t r a i l . As soon a s t h a t
second mine det onat ed, t he capt ai n t o l d me t o c a l l them. I
cal l ed and he wanted t o t a l k t o them t o t e l l them t o come back
out of t her e because it was heavi l y mined. Af t er t h a t second
mine went o f f , t h a t ' s why he t ermi nat ed it. He wanted them back
out of t her e. Come back j us t t he same way t hey went i n , t he
same s t e ps . So t hey woul dn' t set of f anot her mine. That second
det onat ed wa s when we c a l l e d them up and t o l d them t o come out
of t her e- That ' s when CANTU and a l l them--and t hey brought
them r i g h t back out ; if I ' m not mistaken, somewhere gener al l y
t he same way t hey went i n , and put them on t he next chopper-
Q. I n conj unct i on wi t h t h a t or der . Thi s or der came
a f t e r t he det onat i on of t he second mine?
A. Right.
Q How f a r di d t he pl at oon move from where Li eut enant
WILLINGHAM--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) The l a s t man hadn' t r e a l l y got up
over t h a t l i t t l e knol l .
Q We're t a l ki ng about a few feet or a few met ers o r
what?
#
A. I don ' t r e a l l y know how f a r t hey were spaced apar t .
I know t h a t t he l a s t man hadn' t got t en up over t h a t l i t t l e
o l d h i l l over t her e. I t hi nk t he poi nt man o r something had
j us t passed it. I don' t know i f it was 10 met ers, 20 meters
o r 30 meters.
1
(MERCER) 1 2
APP T-349
Q The per i od i s pr e t t y wel l f i xed a s f a r a s t he l og
goes. I t was about 45 minutes from t he time COCHRAN was k i l l e d
u n t i l t he next man t r i pped t h a t mine.
A. I don' t know how many meters. I t d i d n ' t seem l i k e
j us t a few minutes i n between. That ' s when he c a l l e d them up
and t o l d them don' t go no f ur t he r , t ur n around and come back.
Q- Now, do you know i f anybody t al ked t o t he company
commander bef or e he i s s ued t h i s or der t o double back?
A. NO, si r, I don' t .
Q Do you know whether Colonel BARKER t o l d him anything?
A. No, sir. I f he di d, he c a l l e d him on t he ba t t a l i on
ne t and a t t h a t time we was s t i l l s o r t of t oget her . We were
s t i l l pr e t t y close t oget her , because we d i d n ' t a c t ua l l y know
what we was ge t t i ng i n t o r i g h t t hen. We s t ayed p r e t t y cl os e
t o him. A s f a r a s I know, he di dn ' t ge t a c a l l t o t e l l them
t o come back out of t ha t - - t e l l t he pl at oon t o back up, go
forward. He j us t took it on h i s own, a s f a r as I knew, t o t e l l
them t o come back out because he done t h a t on s ever al occasi ons.
I know t i m e s t h a t t hey' d come i n and t hey' d l o s t men. I t
seemed l i k e t he f ur t he r t hey go, t he more it went. So he had
them backt rack. Te l l them t o t ur n r i g h t around i n t he same
t r ack and walk i n t he same t r ack r i g h t back out .
Q Thi s was not an unusual procedure?
A. No, sir. When we went t o a pl ace if he had any
i dea t h a t it wa s heavi l y booby-trapped o r mined, nobody went
i n t o it.
Q- W e had an i ndi cat i on t h a t t he 2d Pl at oon may have
had t he mi ssi on of sweeping , Pi nkvi l l e, My Lai (1), and t h a t
when t hese mines w e r e h i t Colonel BARKER s a i d , "Don' t sweep
Pi nkvi l l e. "
A. I never heard not hi ng about t ha t . I know when t hey
s t a r t e d i n t he r e and Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d he was s t i l l
supposed t o move out i n t he same di r ect i on. When t h a t ot her ex-
p l ~ s i o nwent of f he t ol d him t o come out of t her e. Whether
he was t o l d t o do t h a t I don' t know. As f a r as I know--
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) Were t her e any communications, a t t h a t
(ME:RCE R) 13
APP T-349
time, di r e c t e d t o t he 3d Pl at oon? Was t he r e any quest i on of
change i n mi ssi on o r r epl aci ng t he 2d wi t h t he 3d Pl at oon t o
do whatever t h e 2d was supposed t o do?
A. L e t me t hi nk now. I want t o make sur e. I know when
they s t a r t e d on up t h a t way he t o l d them t o cont i nue on t h e i r
mission. When CANTU and t hose fel l ows got h i t t hey w a s brought
back t he same, o r gener al l y t he same way. They didn ' t go back
i n t o t h a t same ar ea towards t he same di r e c t i on. I c a l l e d t he
s er geant up. I don' t know whether t hey had a s er geant i n t h a t
pl at oon a t t h a t t i m e o r not , t he ol d man t al ked t o him.
LTC NOLL: I n what di r e c t i on were t hey moving? Back toward My
Lai (1)? Had t hey gone i n t o Pi nkvi l l e?
A. From t hes e maps, I don ' t know. I know we headed back
towards Upt i ght because t h a t ' s t he way t he whole oper at i on
s t a r t e d. When we landed we was headed back t owar d upt i ght and
when we s t a r t e d moving t h a t ' s t he same way we moved. Before
l ong we had s h i f t e d and t ur ned and went back towards t h i s
r i dge r i g h t her e, up t h a t t r a i l . Lat er on, t he 1st Pl at oon
had c a l l e d i n t h a t t hey had seen some people moving on t he
ot he r s i de. A l i t t l e f ur t he r we went up i n t he r e we found a
vi l l a ge t h a t had a l o t of people i n it.
Q Okay. There i s a communication t h a t was t aped some
t i m e about 0930. Coyote 6 s ays , "Three WHA down t he r e , i s t ha t
cor r ect ?" He r ecei ved t he t r ansmi ssi on, "Very weak. Say
agai n, " t hen, "Change ba t t e r i e s . "
A. Right.
Q Coyote 6 rogered whatever t h a t t ransmi ssi on was :
"I can come i n and pick him up i f y o u ' l l pop smoke f o r us and
secur e a pl ace f o r us. Over." Coyote 6 subsequent l y sai d--or
it was arranged t h a t t he mark would be v i o l e t smoke. He s a i d,
"Have t he wounded s i t t i n g t her e. " Coyote 6 5 , do you know Coyote
65? Net cont r ol s t a t i o n f o r ba t t a l i on.
9 ( I nt er posi ng) He came i n and asked, "Are you going
i n Bravo' s a r e a t o pi ck up wounded?" Reply was, "This i s Coyote
6 , af f i r mat i ve. "
A. No. Thi s ot he r RTO coul d have been t a l ki ng t o them ,
(MERCER) 1 4 APP T-349
o r t he capt ai n coul d have been doing t h a t because he t al ked
mostly t o t he ba t t a l i on net . Everytime something l i k e t h i s ,
somebody got i nj ur ed, he more o r less would t e l l them t o s t op
and t ake t he r o s t e r number, ge t them i n and g e t them out and
t hen we would cont i nue.
Q Well, you were cl os e enough. I wondered i f you
heard any of t hes e t ransmi ssi ons. Apparently Colonel BARKER
came i n t he r e t o pi ck up t h a t l a s t group.
A. Ri ght . H e pi cked up t he l a s t one because he was
s t i l l i n t he a i r . I don' t know i f h i s chopper was t he one t h a t
c a r r i e d Li eut enant COCHRAN. There was one chopper r i ght over-
head, he come down and pi cked 'him up a s soon a s we c a l l e d f or
it.
Q The chopper t h a t Colonel BARKER was on came i n
t o pi ck up t hose l a s t t hr ee. Did Colonel BARKER s t op a t any
t i m e t o t a l k t o Captain MICHLES?
A. No, sir. He never got of f t h a t chopper, t h a t I re-
c a l l , never di d. He st ayed on t he chopper because as soon a s
he s e t down t hey put t he boys i n , and he went r i g h t back up.
Q What about t he communications from t he 1st Pl at oon
t h a t morning? What do you r e c a l l ?
A. I ' v e been t r yi ng t o t hi nk of what was s a i d o r where
they were supposed t o go and a l l t ha t . I know t h a t l a t e r on
up i n t he day t hey c a l l e d us, and s a i d t hey had seen some ac-
t i v i t y up by t h i s bri dge. That ' s when he was t o l d t o be cau-
t i ous it coul d be mined, booby-trapped. That whole t r a i l
could be s i nce t he men got h i t i n t h a t l i t t l e a r e a t her e. To
be r e a l caut i ous and t ake your time. He t o l d them t h a t him-
s e l f on t he r adi o.
Q A l l r i ght . Now he r e ' s what happened. 1st Pl at oon
moved out from t h a t l andi ng zone and went down t h a t t r a i l
and went t o t he br i dge. We know t h a t much. Everything a f t e r
t h a t we have t o ki nd of t ake accordi ng t o what we t hi nk hap-
pened. Something happened a t t he br i dge. I don' t know what.
A. Right. A t t h a t t i m e , I don' t know whether we were
supposed t o go acr oss t he br i dge, o r were supposed t o sweep
t h i s s i d e of t he br i dge, o r go on over. I don' t know i f he
[MERCER)
15 APP T- 349
c a l l e d them. Anyway, we w a s t o l d t o go acr os s t h e br i dge and
t ol d t o send a poi nt man on acr oss t o make s ur e it w a s s a f e .
Which t h a t ' s t h e i r job. That ' s when t h i s boy l o s t h i s f oot . He
seen it and st epped on it.
Q Wrong day. You' re on t he second day. This i s t he
f i r s t day t he pl at oon was over t he r e by i t s e l f . The 1st Platoon
went of f and l e f t t he company and st ayed over t he r e t h a t ni ght .
Now, what I ' m t r yi ng t o f i nd out i s what was going on down there
a t t h e br i dge. We underst and Li eut enant WILLINGHAM c a l l e d f o r
gunshi ps, a r t i l l e r y and f i n a l l y got mortar f i r e down t her e. 81
mort ar bel ongi ng t o t he company.
A. I l o s t a day t he r e t hen, because I don' t know what
took pl ace. I c a n ' t remember.
Q You haven' t l o s t a day. You j u s t l o s t a pl at oon. The
pl at oon wasn' t wi t h you a l l day. There shoul d have been some
communications, some heavy t r a f f i c , coming back from t h a t 1st
Pl at oon, t h a t morning.
1
A. Should have been, r i ght .
Q There shoul d have been a l o t of f i r i n g going on over
t her e. They shoul d have asked. f o r some mortar suppor t , and they
shoul d have asked f o r some gunshi ps.
A. I l o s t t h a t pl at oon, t hen.
Q Let me t e l l you what was r epor t ed. A t l e a s t what
was r epor t ed back t o Task Force Barker. I f it was r epor t ed t o
Task Force Barker it had t o come over your r adi o.
A. That ' s r i g h t it had t o come through me.
Q A t 0955 1 2 VC KIA were r epor t ed.
A. Before we cr ossed t he br i dge?
Q Thi s i s t h e f i r s t day. A s you a l l were st i l l over
t her e by Pi nkvi l l e ge t t i ng ready t o l i nk up wi t h C Company and
l aager t h a t ni ght . A t 0955, and t h i s i s about 25 minutes a f t e r
t h a t l a s t mine went o f f . The 1st Pl at oon r epor t ed 12 VC KI A.
A. I must have l o s t t h a t pl at oon from t h a t day t o t he
next day. I j u s t don' t remember.
Q- Her e' s some more. A t 1025 t hey r epor t ed 18 VC KI A.
A. I remember when t hey r epor t ed s o many t h a t we had
cr ossed t h e br i dge , and w a s goi ng i n t o a v i l l a g e , and t hey g o t
s hot at . I remember t h i s . They were supposed t o have been a t
t h a t t i me t empor ar i l y h a l t e d by s ni pe r f i r e .
Q That coul d have happened, t oo. I ' m t a l ki ng about t h e
16t h and you' r e t a l k i n g about t he 17t h.
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l no--
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) The next r e por t t h a t came i n a t
1025 t o 1045 was, " St e e l hel met s, uni forms, and web equipment."
Then a f t e r t h a t , t h a t af t er noon a t 1420 t h e r e were 8 more VC
r epor t ed KI A. That i s a t o t a l of 38 f o r t he day. With t h a t
many peopl e r epor t ed KI A t h a t ' s a s i z a b l e number t o come from
one pl at oon. I t l ooks l i k e you coul d remember t h a t .
I
A. It i s. Tha t ' s why I ' m t r yi ng- - I remember most of
t h a t hi gh count came i n a f t e r we cr os s ed t h e br i dge, t h e whole
company .
Q Tha t ' s t he wrong day.
A. Maybe I got cr os s i ng t he br i dge mixed up, t hen.
Q. Do you remember t h i s ?
A. I remember a l l t he s e K I A ' s because he c a l l e d me and
r epor t ed t h e f i r s t ones. The c a pt a i n c a l l e d him back up and
asked him t o make s ur e , d o n ' t be k i l l i n g i nnocent peopl e. Make
s ur e t hey had somet hi ng wi t h them bef or e t hey k i l l e d them.
Q Now, t h i s was a f t e r t he f i r s t r e por t of 12 VC KI A,
r i g h t ?
A. It w a s t he f i r s t r e por t . I know it was t h e f i r s t
l i r g e r e por t come over , because it was t h e onl y one t h a t w a s
r epor t i ng any KI A ' s .
Q And why di d Capt ai n MICHLES t e l l him not t o k i l l any
i nnocent peopl e?
A. W e l l , because from what I under st and t he r e was a
v i l l a g e r i g h t up t h e r e and he got s ni pe r f i r e o r somet hi ng
goi ng i n t he r e . I don It know i f it was t h a t 1 6t h o r 17t h. I
know it was t h e f i r s t t i m e he r epor t ed any k i l l s . H e wanted
t o make s ur e t h a t t hey was VC, and not j u s t peopl e r unni ng
from him.
LTC NOLL: You mentioned ,some s ni pe r f i r e . I t wasn 't c l e a r
i n my mind where t h a t s n i p e r f i r e was?
A. Li ke I s ay, I remember t he s e k i l l s put i n , but
t hey w e r e acr os s t h a t br i dge when a11 t h i s t ook pl ace. We
never was l ocked up wi t h them. I remember t h a t ni ght . We
was n' t even a t t h e br i dge, ye t . We moved up t o t h a t br i dge ,
it seemed l i k e l a t e r t h a t af t er noon o r e a r l y t h a t morning,
because we onl y had a s h o r t ways t o go. There was--he s e n t
him on up i n t h e r e t o s ecur e t he a r e a and check i t on out
bef or e we g o t t h e r e . He had done went i n t o t he v i l l a g e and
had s t a r t e d back o u t f r o m what he r epor t ed and t he o l d man
s ays , "You make s u r e you s ear ch t h a t v i l l a g e good." H e had
a bad h a b i t of j u s t r unni ng i n t he r e and ups e t t i ng r i c e ,
t aki ng a br eak, and coming back. He s e n t him back i n t he r e
agai n. He r epor t ed s ni pe r f i r e goi ng up t he t r a i l he had
j u s t come up on. H e d i d ask f o r gunshi ps and t h e company
commander s a ys , "NQ, not f o r j u s t one s ni pe r . "
Q Do you know which day you a r e t a l k i n g about t h i s
t i me?
A. I must be t a l k i n g a h o u t t he 17t h.
Q I 'm t r y i n g t o s t a y on t h e 1 6 t h.
A.
I don ' t I -.i.'ernber t h e 1 6t h. I know t h a t t h e day
t he k i l l i n g t ook pl a c e , t h a t s ni pe r f i r e , was bef or e we l ocked
up wi t h them. I do remember t h a t now. I f t h a t happened on
t he 16t h, t h a t ' s t h e dake t h a t t h a t t ook pl a c e . I know t h a t
was bef or e we l aayer ed wi t h them because we onl y had a s h o r t
pi e c e t o wal k.
Q You a r e t a l k i n g about t h e day you l i nke d up wi t h
t he 1st Pl at oon?
A. Ri ght .
Q = Tha t ' s t he second day. Tha t ' s t he 17t h. Now,
o t h e r t han t h a t da t e , I ' m t a l k i n g about t h e t i m e t he s e k i l l s
w e r e r epor t ed. The k i l l s t h a t are r ecor ded a r e on t h e 16t h
not t he 17t h. So, t h a t ' s t h e t hi ng w e ' r e concent r at i ng on
r i g h t now: t h e day t h a t t hos e k i l l s w e r e r epor t ed and t h e re-
a t i ons hi p o f what you remember i n conj unct i on wi t h t hos e
k i l l s . I f you do remember--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) I remember t h e k i l l s . I remember
it happened on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h e br i dge, b u t I c a n ' t
remember whet her we wa s wi t h them. I know we was n' t wi t h them
a t t he t i m e because we c a l l e d them and t o l d them t o go back
and make s ur e t he y s ear ched t h e v i l l a g e .
LTC NOLL: You had two sets of i n s t r u c t i o n s , t hen, you got
when he r e por t e d t h e k i l l s ? He was t o l d somet hi ng about be-
i ng c a r e f ul n o t t o k i l l c i v i l i a n s ?
A. Ri ght . Tha t ' s r i g h t . H e always t o l d you t h a t be-
f or e you done any shoot i ng. I don' t car e i f you see them
around. He made s ur e t hey was armed. I f we went i n t h e r e
and i f t hey w e r e supposed t o s t o p when you hol l e r e d a t them,
t hey was supposed t o s t op. Ni net y-ni ne per cent of them would
s t op. The ones t h a t d i d n ' t , i f you s hot them, you would end
up f i ndi ng somet hi ng on them.
Q That was one set of i n s t r u c t i o n s you got , be car e-
f u l ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. The o t h e r s e t of i n s t r u c t i o n s you got --
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Was t u r n around and go back, r i g h t ?
Q Y e s , t h a t ' s what I ' m ques t i oni ng you on.
A. H e did t e l l him t h a t . He t o l d him a l l t h a t i n t h e
same t r ans mi s s i on. H e t o l d them t o go back, s ear ch t he v i l l a g e ,
and be c a r e f ul .
Q . Okay. Now he went back and I presume sear ched t h e
v i l l a g e .
A. But bef or e he sear ched t he v i l l a g e t he second t i m e
APP T-349
was when he r ecei ved t h a t f i r e . H e r e por t e d r ecei vi ng s ni -
p e r f i r e on h i s way back t o t h e v i l l a g e . H e had j u s t l e f t .
I don' t know how f a r he was from t he v i l l a g e . I know he
was t o l d t o go back. When he s t a r t e d back he r ecei ved t h e
s n i p e r f i r e . Tha t ' s when he t o l d them, a l l t he way around, -
make s u r e you know what you' r e s hoot i ng a t .
Q Is t h i s what he t o l d him t he second t i me?
A. Ri ght . H e r epor t ed he d i d n ' t f i n d anyt hi ng i n
t h e v i l l a g e . H e sear ched it t oo qui ck from what t h e cap-
t a i n s a i d. He s a i d he coul dn' t s ear ch i t t h a t ' f a s t , H e
wanted t o send him back t o make s ur e he sear ched it.
Q Now, i n 30 mi nut es t i me, he shoul d have sub-
mi t t ed anot her r e por t ? You don' t remember t h a t , e i t h e r ,
o r how many w e r e k i l l e d ?
A. No. I don Dtremember how many w a s k i l l e d . I
know t h a t ' s when t hey were supposed t o have done a l l t h a t
k i l l i n g i n t h e r e and t ur ned i n t h a t l a r g e amount f o r t h a t
day. Whether t hey k i l l e d them on t h e 16t h o r t h e 17t h
I don' t r e c a l l , because s o f a r i t seems l i k e I ' m l os t - -
Q * ( I nt e r pos i ng) We're not ar gui ng wi t h you on
what day it i s. I j u s t want t o g e t ever yt hi ng t h a t you
r e c a l l about t h e exchange of t r ans mi s s i ons .
A. Ri ght . I ' d c a l l him up mysel f , and t h a t ' s when
t he company commander t al l ced t o him. A l o t of t i m e s , he
would t e l l me t o t e l l h i m because he had somet hi ng e l s e .
H e was t h e r e p l o t t i n g c2. ) , t h e map and maybe he was t a l k i n g
t o b a t t a l i o n . He wj u l d t e l l me t o t e l l them t o go back
o r somet hi ng l i k e t h i s , but t h a t day he d i d t e l l them
t o t ur n around and go back and s ear ch t h a t v i l l a g e .
Q Now, do you r e c a l l a second r e por t from Li eu-
t enant WI LLI NGHAM, an a ddi t i ona l body count ?
A. I know t h e r e w a s a s h o r t t i me t h e r e wasn' t
not hi ng r epor t ed. Then t hey come back wi t h some more
K I A ' s t h a t t hey had k i l l e d goi ng back t o t h e v i l l a g e .
That ' s r i g h t . There was some more k i l l e d when t hey s t a r t e d
i n t o t he v i l l a g e . They k i l l e d some more and a f t e r t hey
got i n t he r e t hey was supposed t o k i l l some more.
Q What wa s Capt ai n MICHLES' r e c a t i on t o t h i s ?
A. H e wanted t o know what t hey were k i l l i n g . Did
t hey f i n d any r i f l e s ? D i d t hey f i nd anyt hi ng on them?
Now I s a y, he d i d n ' t want you k i l l i n g somet hi ng t h a t was n' t
supposed t o be k i l l e d . I know . t ha t . H e made s u r e ever y-
body seen somet hi ng bef or e you k i l l e d them, unl es s we got
s hot a t by s ni pe r s , which you c a n ' t see. You t a ke it on
your own t o s t o p them.
Q You had one r e por t of r e c e i vi ng s ni pe r f i r e ?
A. Ri ght . H e w a s supposed t o be pi nned down tempo-
r a r i l y . Tha t ' s when he c a l l e d f o r Shar ks. He t o l d him no.
H e d i d n ' t need them. H e s a i d , "You ought t o be a bl e t o
maneuver i n t h e r e and g e t t h a t s ni per . "
Q What d i d he t e l l him t o use? Did he t e l l him
t o set up h i s crew s er ved weapons? Did he t e l l him t o
g e t i n t he r e ?
A. G e t i n t he r e and g e t him. H e s a i d i f he had t o
he would go up t h e r e and show him how it w a s done. Li eu-
t e na nt WI LLI NGHAM on s e ve r a l occasi ons wanted unnecessary
s t u f f a t t h a t t i m e .
Q- H e had onl y been i n count r y f o r 3 weeks?
A. Yeah. He--we won' t go i n t o t h a t .
Q Now. You may o r may not have r el ayed t he t r a ns -
mi ssi on t o t h e company commander. La t e r on i n t h e day, Cap-
t a i n MICHLES s e n t a message t o t h e b a t t a l i o n t h a t i n t h e
body count t h a t had been r epor t ed t he r e w e r e no women and
chi l dr en?
A.
There were. I Id s ay when he got i n t o t h e v i l l a g e
t he r e were some women and c hi l dr e n k i l l e d . I know t h a t t o
be a f a c t , because I seen them.
Q. Do you r e c a l l t h e message t o b a t t a l i o n t h a t t h e r e
had been no women o r c hi l dr e n k i l l e d ?
A. No, because I walked--he wa s e i t h e r i n f r o n t of
me o r behi nd me . He r o t a t e d up t o walk i n f r o n t whi chever
he wanted i n f r o n t a t t h e t i me. H e wanted t h e speaker where
he coul d he a r it a l l t he t i me. We had a s mal l speaker mounted
on our r a di o and he coul d he a r what ever t ook pl ace. H e l i s t e n -
ed t o it.
Q When d i d you g e t i n t o t he v i l l a g e ? You s a i d when
you got i n you d i d see--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Ri ght . When I went i n t o it we were
moving on up t o t he poi nt of t h e v i l l a g e , moving on t hrough
t h a t v i l l a g e up t o anot her v i l l a g e . I don' t kriow what day
it w a s because I l o s t t h a t pl at oon. I s t i l l c a n ' t r e c a l l t h a t
pl at oon- - l oosi ng it. When we s t a r t e d moving t hrough it, I ' d
see--wai t a mi nut e I seen t h a t coming back t hrough t he r e .
W e went up t h e s hor e l i n e . When we come back we come back
t hrough t h a t v i l l a g e when I seen a l l t h a t .
Q. How many di d you s ee?
A. I ' d seen t hr e e . I know I coul d s e e s h i r t s , t hey
were s wel l ed up. I coul d see puffed-up peopl e behi nd a p i l e
of d i r t o r somet hi ng l i k e t h i s because i t was r i g h t on t h e
beach l i n e , and t hey di g a l l ki nd of cr ap around it.
Q . When you a l l moved t hr ough t he v i l l a g e what di d you
do, move r i g h t down a main t r a i l and j u s t keep r i g h t on goi ng?
A. Wel l , he ' d seen one l i k e t h a t , but i t was narrow.
If I r e c a l l r i g h t it was a narrow pl a c e . One was on t h e one
s i d e of t h e s hor e l i ne and one was t h e ot he r .
Q You' r e t a l k i n g about pl at oons ?
A. Ri ght . The weapons pl at oon, most of t he t i m e ,
i f it was j u s t f o r a s h o r t ways, he would have them set up
t h e i r mor t ar s r i g h t t he r e . Keep them from moving s o f a r .
He would set them up right t here. When we need them t hey
would s uppor t us, b u t we never needed them, har dl y. W e went
a l l t h e way t o t he f r o n t of t he v i l l a g e and s t a r t e d back.
There wa s n' t ' no k i l l s on up i n t he v i l l a g e because a l l of them
peopl e were r i g h t around i n t h e i r hoot ches and ever yt hi ng.
When we moved i n t hey d i d n ' t r un, t hey d i d n ' t do not hi ng. I f
I got t h e same v i l l a g e . I remember on t h a t day we went a
l i t t l e f ur t he r . There was n' t not hi ng i n t he r e . I mean we
went through t h a t vi l l a ge wi t h t h e peopl e i n and t hen went
up. I f t h a t ' s t he same vi l l a ge t he r e wasn' t not hi ng except
some people. We searched t h e hoot ches. They j u s t more o r
less congregat ed i n t he middle of t he l i t t l e o l d pl ace t hey
got t he r e when we got t her e. We d i d n ' t have t o do no search-
i ng. You know, no hard sear chi ng o r people runni ng o r not hi ng
l i k e t h a t . They was a l l st andi ng i n t her e. I don I t blame
them.
Q That s t ands out i n your mind, peopl e st andi ng
around?
A. Right.
Q How f a r away were bodi es?
A. I f t h i s i s t he same f i nge r poi nt t h a t t h a t ' s on,
it wa s a p r e t t y good ways up t he r e . W e wanted t o ge t back
across t he r i v e r t o l aager t h a t ni ght , i f I ' m not mistaken.
We wanted t o g e t on up t her e and ge t back acr oss t h a t bri dge
bef or e dark.
COL WILSON: I want t o t r y and put you back on t he f i r s t day
and s ee i f any of t hes e photographs w i l l br i ng anyt hi ng back
because you are i n one of them. Maybe we can ge t t he t i mi ng
s t r ai ght ened out . Exhi bi t P-18?
A. That t he r e i s HUFFMAN. I know him r e a l good.
Q Who a r e t hose Vietnamese w i t h him? Did you ever
s e e them?
A. I ' m s ur e I seen them. The whole pl ace looks
f ami l i ar . A l l t h i s her e l ooks f a mi l i a r wi t h him s t andi ng
t her e. I know i t ' s got t o be PLACEK. Af t er I l e f t t he
ol d man he was wi t h our pl at oon. H e would take it on
hi s s e l f t o guard s o t h a t would keep him out of going out
and sear ch.
Q Do you remember a photographer coming i n t o B
Company t h a t morning?
A. Right. I remember him. H e w a s supposedly
t aki ng not es and s t u f f .
FOR OFFICIZG USE ONLY
Q - ' W e l l , wa s he t aki ng pi c t ur e s ?
A. Yeah, he was t aki ng pi c t ur e s .
Q Do you r ecogni ze any of t hes e Vietnamese?
A. They a l l l ook f a mi l i a r . I know I seen them.
Thi s guy her e, he s t i c k s i n my mind f o r some r eason.
Q Why?
A. I don' t know.
Q The l a s t man on t h e r i ght ?
A. Ri ght , t h i s one r i g h t her e.
Q Do you know whet her t he s e pr i s oner s came i n wi t h
C Company when t hey l i nked up, o r di d you have them bef or e
t ha t ?
A. We had t o have them bef or e t h a t because he was
guardi ng them.
A. These peopl e, I do remember.
Q What about them? Do you remember where t hey
were?
A. I s ur e don' t .
Q W e l l , t he r e somewhere i n t h e pr oxi mi t y of your
l a a ge r ar ea on t h e f i r s t day.
A. Ri ght . I don' t remember e xa c t l y where t hey were,
but I know t he same wi t h t h e pi c t ur e back there--I seen t he
peopl e bef or e. I ' d s ay I know I ' ve been t her e. I remember t he
peopl e, but I don' t remember exact l y what v i l l a g e it was i n
o r where. I know I ' v e seen t hes e peopl e because we had
them herded up l i k e t h a t .
Q You had them herded up f o r what purpose: i n-
t e r r oga t i on o r j u s t moving them a s i de s o you coul d sear ch?
A. W e rounded them up t o go t hrough them, and s e e
i f t hey had any paper s o r anyt hi ng on them. If t hey di d, we
would send them back. I f t hey d i d n ' t , we d i d n ' t bother them.
A. I don ' t know what rank he i s because he never
wore any i ns gi ni a , but I know him and h i s i n t e r p r e t e r .
Q You' re t a l ki ng about t h e man wi t hout t h e hel met on
and t h e man s t andi ng next t o him?.
A. Ri ght .
Q M I t ype. I t ' s Li eut enant JOHNSON.
A. I don' t know. H e never had no rank o r not hi ng.
H e j u s t come up.
A. I don' t remember t h e boy, but I remember t he s e
two. They would always come out ever y t i m e we went t o what ' s
supposed t o be a bad ar ea t o f i nd out something. They w e r e
always s e n t i n t o i nt e r r oga t e anybody.
Q These a r e t he i nt e r r oga t or s ?
A. Ri ght .
Q .
Do you remember s eei ng them t he r e t h a t day?
A. W e l l , t hey s t ayed wi t h us one t i m e f o r about 2
weeks, it seemed l i k e , o r a month. They would come back of f
and on.
A. Right. That ' s when we we r e out on bus i nes s , and
t hey wanted t o f i n d out where t h a t cave was at, underground
cave.
Q You were out t he r e ?
25
APP T-349
A. I don' t know where it wa s a t , but it was sup-
posed t o be a cave. I f t h a t i s t he same man? It l ooks
l i k e t he same man. Which t hey a l l do look l i k e when t hey
ge t ol d.
Q Thi s i s t h e f i r s t day.
A. On t h a t oper at i on? Thi s i s t he day t h a t r e-
por t e r was wi t h us?
Q Yes.
A. H e s l i pped up on me and got a pi c t ur e t hen
because I don' t know where t h a t w a s a t .
A. That ' s me r i g h t t her e.
Q = ' On t he extreme r i ght ?
A. Ri ght . I don' t know where t h i s ar ea i s a t . I
don' t remember t h e area.
Q Do you remember any of t hose Vietnamese people?
A. I ' ve seen them a l l . I don ' t know what ar ea we
was i n when we seen them o r where we had them a t .
Q Did you ever s e e one of t hes e i n t e r p r e t e r s i n
P-66? I should say ARVN s ol di e r s .
A. They s e nt some out one time t o do some i n t e r -
r ogat i on. There was supposed t o be some c i t y pol i c e o r
something e l s e wi t h them. That w a s on t h a t ar ea where
MILUS got k i l l e d a t . Ar en' t t hes e people on t h a t ar ea
where MILUS got ki l l e d?
Q - That ' s t he wrong day. P-208. Did you s e e t hes e
pr i s oner s ?
A. Oh, yeah.
Q. Where di d t hey come from?
APP T-349
A. I remember s eei ng them al l . The a r e a I j u s t
c a n ' t recall. W a i t a mi nut e, t h i s i s where I l e f t t he
company commander. I ' m p r e t t y s ur e. The 2d Pl at oon was
supposed t o be r i g h t over t he r e . The o t h e r RTO got s i c k o r
hur t o r something.
Q. You l e f t - -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) I f t h i s i s t h e same a r e a t h a t
I ' m t hi nki ng about . I don' t know what t hey c a l l e d i f t h i s
i s t h e same pl ace? I l e f t t h e company commander somewhere
t h a t looked j u s t l i k e it because t hey wa s di ggi ng a b i g
foxhol e. I had g o t my f oxhol e dug. The ot he r RTO got s i c k ,
hur t o r something, and I had t o go over t he r e and be t h e
2d Pl at oon' s RTO.
Q The 2d Pl at oon RTO?
A. Ri ght .
Q b You woul dn' t have had t o go over t he r e because
t he RTO was wounded?
(Witness shakes head i n t h e negat i ve. )
H e wasn I t wounded. Who was RTO of t h e 2d Pl at oon?
A. W e l l , he had a col or ed guy. What was h i s name?
Q. Was it any of t hos e names I c a l l e d o u t t h a t w e r e
wounded t h e first day? I t was n' t t hose?
A. No.
Q- H e wasn ' t evacuat ed?
No.
Q-
Could he have got t e n s i c k because of what happened
t o t he pl at oon l eader ?
A. I don' t know.
Q Do you remember becoming t he 2d Pl at oon RTO?
A, Oh, yes. I st ayed wi t h t he 2d Pl at oon t her e
u n t i l I l e f t t o come home t hen. H e put me over t her e. H e
s a i d t he ot her RTO d i d n ' t know what he was doi ng on t h e
r adi o. H e wanted me over t he r e where he coul d keep up on
what t he 2d Pl at oon was doing and keep him--in ot he r words,'
keep t he r a di o and communications up wi t h t h a t pl at oon.
Q* So you l e f t t he company t he f i r s t day? I .mean,
you l ef t t h e company CP?
A. I had al r eady l e f t t h e company CP when t h i s
r e por t e r w a s flown i n t o us acr oss t h a t br i dge. I l e f t t h e
company commander t hen, i f I ' m not mistaken.
Q. Wait a minute. You' re not acr oss t he br i dge yet .
L e t me t e l l you something. These photographs were t aken on
t he f i r s t day. Thi s i s i n t he ar ea where you had your l aager .
Where t hose pr i s oner s were, P-20 8 and P-209.
A. Right.
Q- Now, t he r e i s anot her photographer t h a t may have
come i n t he same day. The photographer t h a t I a m t a l ki ng
about came i n t he f i r s t day. T h i s photo, P-208, where t he
pr i s oner s a r e , was very cl os e t o t he company CP t he f i r s t
ni ght . You can s ee t h a t ?
A. I bel i eve t h a t ' s r i ght . Here it i s.
Q Do you know where t hes e pr i s oner s came from?
A. The ar ea? I don I t . I r e a l l y don I t .
Q* W a s t he r e any r e l a t i on t o t hes e pr i s oner s and
t he people I ' v e shown you i n ot he r photographs?
A. I can' t remember t ha t .
Q- Do, you know what happened t o t hes e pr i s oner s ?
A. We put them on a chopper and s e nt them i n .
Q. That ni ght ?
A. Yeah. We s e nt them i n on t he resuppl y chopper.
Q. What time?
A. I t wa s i n t he af t er noon. . W e always t r i e d t o
g e t r es uppl i ed bef or e dar k. Everybody would be t hrough e a t i ng.
Q. They d i d n ' t s t a y t he r e t h a t ni ght ?
A. No. W e d i d n ' t keep none of them over ni ght .
Q* That ' s t he normal r ul e ?
A. Ri ght . I f we caught one i n t h e middle of t he day
i ns t e a d of car r yi ng him a l l day, he would c a l l a chopper i n
and have him s e n t out , o r t hey would br i ng out an i nt e r r oga t or
t o i nt e r r oga t e him, and we would l eave him and move o f f . Most
of t he t i m e t hey w e r e a l l s e n t back. I f t he i nt e r r oga t or
wasn' t wi t h, ifhe wasn' t--a l o t of t i m e s t hey w e r e s e n t back.
Q- What about t h i s P-209? See i f you can r ecogni ze
t ha t ?
A. Yeah. Thi s r i g h t around her e i s where I l e f t t h e
company commander, around t h i s b i g dome. Me and t h i s s er geant
who w a s wi t h t h e a r t i l l e r y dug t h a t f oxhol e r i g h t over on t he
s i de t he r e . And t h a t ni ght i s t h e ni ght I l e f t t h e company
commander and went wi t h t h e ot he r pl at oon. That ' s t h e same
ni ght .
Q. Okay. You d i d n ' t go back t o t he company a f t e r t h a t ?
A. I went back once t o pi ck up my suppl y.
Q- I n ot he r words, go back t o t he CP and c a r r y t h e r a di o,
no? What' s t h i s you' r e t e l l i n g me about cr os s i ng t h e br i dge
wi t h t he company commander?
A.
I t seemed l i ke . t o me I was wi t h him when-Icr ossed
t h e br i dge. No, i t wasn' t e i t h e r because t hey br ought i n t h a t
r epor t er . I know t hey brought i n a r e por t e r and a new l i e ut e na nt .
Q. Tha t ' s r i g h t , Li eut enant LEWIS.
A. Right.
APP T-349
Q And you cr ossed t h e br i dge?
A. Right. I was al r eady wi t h him t hen. I mean I was
wi t h t he 2d Pl at oon when t hey crossed.
Q. Okay, but you d i d n ' t go acr oss t he br i dge wi t h t he
company commander?
A* No .
Q- At any time? A t t he time you cr ossed t h e br i dge,
you w e r e wi t h t h e 2d Pl at oon?
A. Right. When I went acr oss there--when we cr ossed
t h e br i dge, t hey brought t h i s Li eut enant LEWIS and a r e por t e r
i n . He went wi t h t he 2d Pl at oon. W e went down t he beachl i ne.
Q. W e ' l l g e t t o t h a t i n a minute.
A. Now, I ' m s t r a i g h t . The pi c t ur e put me s t r a i g h t on
t ha t . A l l t hes e people her e, had come out of a l l t h i s ar ea
r i g h t her e, d i d n ' t t hey?
Q I don' t know i f t hey came out of t her e o r not , but
t he y' r e very cl os e t o t hes e two photographs.
A. I ' m pr e t t y s ur e we had them wi t h us i n t h i s area.
Those sacks over t h e i r heads and t hes e people r i g h t her e, t he
way we had them, makes me bel i eve t hey come out of t h i s a r e a
r i g h t her e.
Q I n ot he r words, P-208 and P-209 a r e very cl os e.
A. Right. As f a r a s I r e c a l l t he y' r e p r e t t y cl os e.
Q. During t h a t day a t some t i me, C Cobpany l i nked up
wi t h B Company, and t hey went i n t o a l aager t h a t ni ght ?
A. L e t me t hi nk.
Q- You may o r may not have got t en i nvol ved wi t h them.
Thi s di d happen. The two companies st ayed t oget her t h a t ni ght .
C Company came i n.
A. They l aager ed i n t h a t same sandy--in ot he r
words, t he r e was a bi g sandy s pot around t he grave o r what-
ever itwas supposed t o be. I f I'm not mistaken t he r e was
a l ar ge sandy pl ace. I mean p r e t t y c l e a r . There was some
hedgerows and some bamboo. On t h e ot her s i d e t he r e was open
rice paddi es. There w a s open r i c e paddi es a l l around. Thi s
was a r e a l smal l vi l l a ge . There was n' t nobody i n t her e when
we got t her e. I f t he r e had of been, t he ot her pl at oon had
al ready herded them up. I don' t r e c a l l . For t h a t ' s when I
l e f t t he company commander, r i g h t t her e. I don' tknow
whether t hey l aagered--i f t hey di d, t hey l aager ed i n t h a t
l ar ge ar ea around us.
Q = But you d i d n ' t s ee them?
A. Not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q- Did you s ee any ARVN personnel i n t he r e t h a t day?
A. I don' t remember i f we di d o r di dn' t .
Q - Did yop s ee any Nat i onal Pol i ce i n t her e?
t
A. That ' s t he ones I t hi nk t h a t came i n there--now,
r i g h t up from her e i swhere MILUS got k i l l e d . The ni ght
MILUS got k i l l e d , t h a t ' s when them pol i ce came out and a
d i f f e r e n t i nt e r pr e t e r .
Q- I t coul d be, but it ' s not near t her e.
A. That ' s t he onl y Nat i onal Pol i ce t h a t I remember
seei ng.
Q. Do you remember seei ng any ARVN' S t h a t f i r s t ni ght ?
T h i s is t he ni ght Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d .
A. Ri ght , t h a t ni ght .
Q. The ARVN o r Vietnamese Nat i onal Pol i ce o r mi l i t a r y
i nt e l l i ge nc e personnel , M I t ypes?
A. No,--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) You went wi t h t he CP, maybe you di dn' t
s ee them.
31 APP T-349
A. He might have come i n on a resuppl y chopper. Again
I d i d n ' t not i ce.
Q- It could have been--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Because t h a t ni ght I l e f t t h e CP
I don' t r e c a l l s eei ng t h a t ot he r company.
Q. Did you see any i nt er r ogat i ons going on t he r e ?
A. Tha t ' s what I ' m t hi nki ng of .
Q. Tr y t o keep iton t h a t day, i f you can.
A. Yeah. I f t hey di d, I j u s t c a n' t remember. I j u s t
don' t know.
Q* Did you hear about any i nt er r ogat i ons going on
t h a t day?
A. I don' t bel i eve any went on i n our company t h a t day
t h a t I can r ecal l , .
Q. Did you hear any f i r i n g i n t he l a a ge r a r e a t h a t
ni ght ?
A. No, I di dn' t . I was r i g h t beyond--right over , w e l l ,
i f t h i s was l a a ge r I would have been r i g h t over here.
Q- Lef t of t he photograph P-209?
A. Right. I t was r i g h t behind t he CP, and I di dn' t
hear no f i r i n g myself.
Q- Nothing unusual happened t h a t ni ght ?
A. Wait a minute. They had spot t ed--I don' t know
whether itwas our pl at oon, t h a t ni ght when I j oi ned. I don' t
remember i f t hey had seen somebody, but t hey d i d n ' t c a l l it
i n on t he r adi o. Not t o me. I t seemed l i k e t o me t he r e was
some motion out t he r e i n t h a t r i c e paddy t h a t ni ght . I don' t
know i f t hey s hot at ito r not . I remember some a c t i v i t y out
t her e i n t h a t r i c e paddy. They s a i d itlooked l i k e i t might be
Char l i e coming i n . Whether t hey f i r e d a t i t o r not , I
don' t know.
Q - Now, t he r e i s a couple of t hi ngs I would l i k e
t o t r y t o f i x on t h a t day bef or e we go t o t he next day. one
i s, you made a st at ement t h a t Captain MICHLES always t o l d
t he pl at oons t o be c a r e f ul about who t hey were shoot i ng a t .
A. Right.
Q - You mean everytime t hey r epor t ed a k i l l he would
come back wi t h t h i s ?
A. No, t h a t w a s before. When we l anded t o go out , he
would s t r e s s t h a t poi nt r e a l heavy.
Q. Yes.
A. I f anybody r epor t ed any k i l l s he wanted t o make
s ur e what t hey had on them. Were t hey armed o r what--just
what were t hey doing. They would t e l l him, and t hen he would
r epor t it. I donI t car e what was happening, anybody t h a t got
a k i l l e d t h a t day, he' d r epor t it. I don' t know i f he was
supposed t o o r not but he r epor t ed it. It would always come
, backr epor t i ng t o us when I was car r yi ng t h e r adi o. Itwould
come back, "KI A running, armed," o r something l i k e t h i s . The
reason why he was k i l l e d o r something.
Q- W e l l , whenever t hes e k i l l s were r epor t ed di d he
normally say anyt hi ng over t he r adi o about c i vi l i a ns ?
A. Yes. He would st r ess- - yes, he would. I don' t
know, he was always wanting t o make s ur e t h a t t hey were VC.
I mean he would s i t down a t ni ght , l i k e r i g h t around t h i s
pl ace r i g h t her e. The pl at oon l eader s would come up. He
would c a l l f o r t h e pl at oon l eader s meeting. A l o t of t i mes,
I ' d say not a l o t of t i mes, but a few t i mes, t hey would hol d
itr i g h t by t h e r a di o o r he o r Sergeant THOMPSON, who was
wi t h us at t h a t t i me, would s i t by t he r adi o, and we would
go e a t o r whatever we w e r e going t o do., Get a foxhol e dug o r
something l i k e t h i s . There would be one man wi t h t he r adi o.
A l o t of t i m e s t h a t ' s when he would have h i s meetings wi t h. t he
pl at oon l eader s t o t e l l them what we were going t o do t he next
day o r whatI s what. I not i ced, time a f t e r time and time agai n,
he t ol d them t o make s ur e you know what you' r e shoot i ng. Be
car ef ul . W e don' t want t o k i l l i nnocent peopl e. Way a f t e r a l l
t h i s , t he r e wa s one k i l l e d a f t e r t h a t , but it w a s j u s t a pure
acci dent . This i s way on. This di dn' t happen i n t h i s ar ea.
Thi s was way on up.
Q I ' m s t r i c t l y t a l ki ng about r adi o t ransmi ssi ons t o t he
pl at oon, a l l t he pl at oons, t h e whole company, he would s t r e s s
t h a t over t h e r a di o t o make s ur e you knew what you w e r e shooting,
Be car ef ul .
Q And you do r e c a l l t h a t Captain MICHLES t ur ned
Li eut enant WILLINGHAM down on h i s r eques t f o r gunships?
A. Ri ght , because he s a i d he d i d n ' t need it. There
wasn' t enough f i r e coming out of t her e. There wa s j us t one
s ni per . He ought t o have been abl e t o ge t it by hi msel f.
Q And you do r e c a l l recei' ving t hes e KIA r epor t s ?
A. Right. When he c a l l e d me. I would answer. H e
would e i t h e r r epor t them t o me o r want t o t a l k t o t h e company
1
commander, which I gave t o him. The speaker was r i g h t besi de
my ear .
Q You do r e c a l l t hes e t hr e e r epor t s bei ng radi oed i n?
A. Right. I ' d t e l l t he company commander he ' d j u s t
k i l l e d some more. He would c a l l him back up and t a l k t o himself
on t he exact number k i l l e d , what t hey found on them and s t u f f like
t h i s . I n t ur n, he would t ur n around and ge t ba t t a l i on ne t and
c a l l it i n.
Q One ques t i on. The 2d Pl at oon moved i n t o t h i s mine-
f i e l d , back out , went around i t ?
A. Yeah. I don' t remember which di r e c t i on.
Q What was t h e 3d Pl at oon doing a t t h a t time? Do you
know?
(Witness shakes head i n t he negat i ve .)
I f you don' t know, i t ' s a l l r i ght . I j u s t wondered.
A.
t ha t .
(MERCER)
I l o s t t h a t 1st Pl at oon t h a t day. I don ' t remember
I
34
APP T-349
I know t hey had t o back out of t h e ar ea t hey s t a r t e d i n where
Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d . They backed out . I don' t know
whether it wa s t h i s way, t h i s way, o r t h i s way. I know t hey
went around t he ar ea t hey run i n t o t h e mines.
Q Le t ' s go on t o t he 17t h. The 17t h, t he 1st Pl at oon
was acr oss t he r i v e r and t hey l aager ed up t he r e i n t he nor t h.
They s t a r t e d moving back down t o t he br i dge. TAYLOR h i t t he
mine. Now, we don' t know exact l y what t h e sequence of event s
was, but B Company moved back down t o t h a t t r a i l and s t a r t e d
moving toward t he br i dge. I t hi nk t he 3d Pl at oon was l eadi ng
and t he 2d Pl at oon - -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) The 1st Pl at oon had t o be l eadi ng.
Q The 1st Pl at oon was al r eady over t her e. Leading
down ' t &ar d t he bri dge we bel i eve w a s t h e 3d Pl at oon followed
by t he CP and t h e 2d Pl at oon wi t h t he mort ars mixed i n t her e
somewhere. Is t h a t cor r ect ?
A. Yes.
Q Do you remember t he or der of march?
A. Not r e a l l y , but I know t he weapons pl at oon, I ' m
pr e t t y s ur e , would f a l l i n behind us, i f a l l t he pl at oons was
t oget her t h e weapons pl at oon brought t h e r e a r up.
Q Okay. Now, do you remember t he mine going of f over
t he r e where TAYLOR was wounded?
A. Right.
Q. You heard i t ?
A. Right.
Q. Do you remember where your l ocat i on was when t h a t
mine went o f f ?
A. I know we wasn ' t al ong ways of f . We was j u s t about
t o s e e it. There was a vee i n t her e. I coul dn' t s ee t he
br i dge, i t s e l f . I coul d s ee some of t he smoke coming from it.
Q Were you moving through a v i l l a g e t hen on t h i s t r a i l ?
35 APP T-349
Was t he r e a hedgerow on each s i de?
A. There w e r e some hedgerows, but I don' t r e c a l l no
vi l l a ge . I f t he r e wa s , it al r eady had been bur nt o r t o r e up
o r somet hi ng.
Q Do you remember st oppi ng f o r any l engt h of t i me
t her e ?
A. We ha l t e d f o r them t o check t h a t br i dge. H e c a l l e d
up and wanted t o make s ur e t h a t br i dge was s a f e bef or e he moved
t h e rest of t h e element acr os s .
Q Cal l ed t he 1st Pl at oon?
A. Ri ght . Because I was s t i l l moni t ori ng t h e t r ans -
mi ssi ons.
Q Thi s wa s a f t e r t h e expl osi on?
A. Well, he t o l d them one time t o check it bef or e we
got t her e. He t o l d them he had al r eady s e n t t he poi nt man
acr oss it.
Q They were al r eady over t her e?
A. Well, I know, but he t o l d them - - he c a l l e d t hem up
and asked them whether t he br i dge was secured and t hey s a i d, "YE
I ' v e al r eady double checked." That ' s when, I guess, TAYLOR got
it qoing back - - somewhere on t he bri dge he t o l d them t h a t day,
H e seen t he mine, but he j u s t c oul dn' t s t op hi msel f .
Q You were l i s t e n i n g t o t h i s ?
A. Ri ght . I heard i t on - - wel l , I d i d n ' t hear him sal
t h a t because he d i d n ' t have a r adi o. Thi s i s t he way it come dc
Sever al of my f r i e nds was watching, t h a t was . r i ght t he r e . I knc
TAYLOR r e a l good and I asked him, "Did he know what he st epped c
and he s a i d "He seen it but he al r eady s t a r t e d i n t o it and he
coul dn' t s t op hi msel f. I' There wasn' t no way t o s t op and h i s foc
landed on it.
Q Do you know i f t he poi nt ever cr ossed t he br i dge that
morning t o check it out ?
FOR OFFICIAL USE 'ONLY
A. No, I don' t .
Q. O r d i d t hey s t a y on t he f a r s i de?
A. I don' t know whether t hey come back acr oss o r not .
I know bef or e t he whole element went acr os s , bef or e we got t he r e ,
he wanted t o make s ur e t h a t br i dge was s a f e f o r us t o go acr oss.
Q The mine went of f ? Did any f i r i n g s t a r t t hen?
A. No.
Q N o f i r i n g ?
A. No f i r i n g , because everybody j u s t knew it had t o be
a booby t r a p , you know, a mine o r something. I t happened r i g h t
on t he br i dge. Nobody e l s e was up t h a t way. W e d i d n ' t know who
it was, a t t he t i me, o r how many had got h i t , but we knew t he r e
was a mine expl osi on because of t he way t he smoke and t h e sound
of it.
Q How about EOD? Did you s ee any EOD men t h a t morning?
Engineer demol i t i oni s t s at t ached t o t he company?
A. I don' t know i f it w a s on t h i s same day o r not , b u t
we had a l o t of them come out and blow up some t unnel s i n t h a t
same ar ea.
Q What?
A. W e had some of them come out and blow up a bunch of
t unnel s t h a t t i m e . Ri ght acr oss t he r i v e r was anot her company
cr os s i ng t h a t br i dge. hey was coming through a vi l l a ge t hey
was supposed t o be f i ndi ng a l o t of s t u f f over t her e: t unnel s
and s o f or t h. When we moved al ong going t o t h e br i dge o r coming
back, I don' t remember i f i t was going o r coming, we seen t h a t
company acr oss t he r e because we t r a ve l e d al ong t he waterway
r i g h t next t o t he wat er. We were on a t r a i l , I bel i eve going
towards t he br i dge.
Q Did you s ee any marked mines on t he br i dge, near
t he br i dge, on t h e approaches on t h e br i dge, wi t h t i s s u e paper?
A. Oh, yes. On one br i dge, i f t h a t ' s t he same br i dge,
t he r e was t i s s u e paper on t he br i dge.
APP T- 349
Q Marking t he mines on t he approaches?
A. I don' t know i f it was marking them o r not , but when
t he mine went of f it j u s t ha l t e d t hi ngs till we got him ext r act '
Ti ssue paper? You coul d f i nd t h a t l ayi ng on t h e br i dges , on t h
roads, o r anywhere out t he r e .
Q A l l r i ght . That mine went of f at 0810 t h a t morning.
That ' s when he wa s r epor t ed wounded. A t 0845 t he 1st Pl at oon
r epor t ed r ecei vi ng s ni pe r f i r e .
A. Now, i s t h a t when I got ahead, got back?
Q I t hi nk t hi s ' wha t i s you ar e t a l ki ng about . This i s
what i s i n t h e j ournal .
A. I know t h a t t hey were somewhere acr os s t h a t br i dge
when t hey r ecei ved t h a t s ni pe r f i r e . Whether i t w a s on t he 1 6 t
o r 17t h, but I know r i g h t i n t her e t hey was - -
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) Well, t he r e was some f i r i n g t hen?
A. I don' t bel i eve i t was t h e day TAYLOR got k i l l e d , be
cause TAYLOR was a poi nt man.
Q TAYLOR di dn I t ge t k i l l e d .
A. I mean, got h i s f oot blown o f f .
Q I t was r epor t ed t h a t h i s f oot w a s blown of f a t 0810
and a t 0845 you got s ni pe r f i r e . Now, l et ' s j us t assume t h a t
t h a t i s t h e same day because you know t hey got s ni pe r f i r e over
t her e.
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you r e c a l l t he act i on? Do you recall t h a t there
was a l o t of f i r i n g going on?
A. No, sir. W e l l , when t hey r ecei ved t h a t s ni pe r fire
you coul d hear it. I mean, it w a s cl os e enough t o hear what wa
going on. You coul d hear a l o t of f i r i n g i n t o t h a t - - suppose
t o be f l us i ng t he s ni pe r out - - and it j u s t qui et ed of f i n a
l i t t l e whi l e and t hen it s t a r t e d back up.
Q
Bef or e you cr os s ed t h a t br i dge whi l e you were l a yi ng i n
t he r e wai t i ng, do you r e c a l l some gunshi ps coming i n ?
A. No, I don' t .
Q You d o n ' t remember any gunshi ps?
A. No. Af t e r t h a t mine went o f f a l l I can remember on
t h a t day i n o t h e r words about t h a t mine, w a s t h a t a chopper come
i n and t ook him o u t , and we went acr os s t h a t br i dge.
Q Okay. Then you went acr os s t h e br i dge. Is t h a t when
you s a w t h e bodi es ?
A. Yeah.
\
Q. Le t ' s go back i n . How c l os e t o t he br i dge w e r e t he s e
bodi es?
A. I t was n' t r e a l c l os e t o t h e br i dge. They were on up
i n t he r e . I d o n ' t know how many f e e t o r met er s, j u s t up i n t h e r e
a p r e t t y good ways. I know t ha t .
Q Were t hey s t r a i g h t t owards t he s e a from t he br i dge o r
were t hey t owards t h e s e a and t hen down t o t h e r i g h t ?
A. I don ' t remember i f we made a t ur n o r went s t r a i g h t .
We d i d make a t ur n because we f ol l owed t h a t t r a i l . I t w a s t o t h e
r i g h t of t h e t r a i l . A s you went up i n i t , it w a s t o t h e r i g h t of
t he t r a i l .
Q. Thi s t r a i l l eadi ng toward t he s ea?
A. Ri ght , s t r a i g h t . W e went of f i n t h e r e and more o r
less a f or k i n t h e t r a i l . We t ook t he one t o t h e r i g h t . W e went
back up i n t he r e . That ' s where I seen t he s e bodi es .
Q Were t hos e bodi es around hoot ches?
A. Some was and some w a s l a yi ng by a pl ace goi ng i n t o
t he ground o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q
saw?
Could you gi ve us t he f i gur e s agai n a s t o how many you
39
APP T-349
A. Wel l , I t hi nk I seen f our o r f i v e of them bodi es l ayi ng
out t hrough t he r e .
Q A l l women and c hi l dr e n?
A. No, no. They was n' t a l l women and c hi l dr e n. I seen t h e
maj or i t y of them w a s men. I seen one women. I know t h a t because I
j u s t had t o s t o p and l ook. Most of t h e bodi es t h a t I seen t h a t day
a l l , except f o r t h a t one, was men. They was n' t ol d men. They wasn' t
what you would c a l l f ar mer s. I d i d n ' t l ook a t t h e i r hands o r not hi ng
e l s e . I j u s t walked by them. I d i d n ' t want t o handl e them. When I
walked by them I j u s t l ooked a t them. They wasn ' t f ar mer s. They
d i d n ' t l ook l i k e f ar mer s. They coul d have been, b u t t hey j u s t - -
most l y when you go i n t o a v i l l a g e l i k e t h a t you f i n d o l d peopl e. Old
peopl e l i k e t h i s o l d man bei ng i nt e r r oga t e d back her e.
Q
When you s ay back her e you mean i n t he s e phot ographs?
A. The phot ogr aphs. Ri ght , si r.
Q Did you s ee anyt hi ng t o i n d i c a t e t h a t t he s e men w e r e - -
have any weapons o r anyt hi ng wi t h them?
A.
No, I d i d n ' t see not hi ng l i k e no weapons o r not hi ng l i k e N
t h a t . I j u s t s een t h e bodi es , some of t he bodi es . I d o n ' t know +.,,
how many w a s supposed t o have been t h e r e , but I s a w some of them.
LTC NOLL: You mentioned mounds, a l s o.
A. Ri ght .
They wa s - - some mi ght have been t h a t hi gh
( i ndi c a t i ng approxi mat el y 24 i nc he s ) . I don' t know what t hey
were used f o r o r what purpose of them w a s . They w e r e roun$&d over .
I t wa s ni c e and round. I don ' t know f o r what purpose t hey ' wa s f o r .
I t was a l l sand. Tha t ' s when I seen t h e s h i r t had swol l en up.
That ' s when I t ook not i c e of some of them l a yi ng o u t t h e r e .
Q Were t he s e mounds bes i de hoot ches?
A. They would be away from hoot ches. Most of them wi t h
bodi es bes i de them w a s away from t he hoot ches. They wa s a few
f e e t i n f r o n t of o r bes i de it.
Q I r e a l i z e you wer en' t wi t h Capt ai n MICHLES. A t l e a s t
I d o n ' t t hi nk you were wi t h Capt ai n MICHLES.
(MF,RCER) 40 APP T-349
FOR OFFICIALI US% ONLY
A. No, I don' t bel i eve I was wi t h t he capt ai n t hen.
That ' s when t h a t l i eut enant come out and took over when we
was coming back through t her e.
Q You don' t know i f Captain MICHLES had any r eact i on?
A. No, si r, I don' t .
COL WILSON: Did Captain MICHLES s e e t hes e bodi es?
A. I don' t r e a l l y know if he seen them o r not .
LTC NOLL: Were t hes e mounds t h a t you s a w, di d you t hi nk t hey
were f r es h graves?
A. No, si r. I di dn' t t hi nk t hey were f r es h graves be-
cause t hey j us t d i d n ' t look l i k e a grave. They wasn' t t h a t long.
There were some t h a t would onl y be t h a t l ong, ( i ndi cat i ng approx-
i mat el y 3 f e e t ) about t h a t l ong and some a l i t t l e l onger. The
average mound woul dn' t be any l onger t han t h i s t a bl e t op from
t h i s end t o t h a t one r i g h t t her e.
Q Did t hey look f r es h?
A. No, sir. They r e a l l y d i d n ' t look t h a t f r es h because
t her e wa s some p r i n t s on them.
Q . Ea r l i e r you s a i d something about peopl e bei ng i n a
group. Was t he r e a group of people i n t h i s vi l l a ge ?
A. Not i n t h a t vi l l a ge . Not a l i ve anyway.
Q I n ot her words, 'you saw no people a t a l l ?
A. No, not i n t h a t vi l l a ge . When we went through it
t her e was nobody i n t he r e except some bodi es. That ' s when
t h i s l i eut enant come i n on a chopper and we went up t o t he
r i ve r . Along t h e s hor el i ne we di d a t one t i h e r ecei ve s ni pe r
f i r e . There was a photographer wi t h us a t t h a t time and he
d i d n ' t know whether t o st and up and t ake pi c t ur e s o r go bl i nd.
Q. You s a i d immediately a f t e r TAYLOR' S f oot w a s blown
off t he r e wasn' t any f i r i ng?
A. Not t h a t I remember. I t was j us t more o r less a
hush and t hi ngs stopped. We got him out and i t s t a r t e d agai n.
I don' t remember no f i r i n g t h a t took pl ace except t h a t l oud
expl osi on.
Q You do r e c a l l some messages between Capt ai n MICHLES
and Li eut enant WILLINGHAM t o t he e f f e c t , "Get t he br i dge checked
out "?
A. Right.
Q By t h i s you assumed t he poi nt group - -
A. ( I nt er posi ng) Was checking t he br i dge.
Q Check it out . To check it out t hey had t o come back - -
A. ( I nt er posi ng) He wanted t o make s ur e it was s a f e f o r
t he rest of t he element t o go acr oss.
Q When you a l l moved through t h i s vi l l a ge i what di d
you do? Move through o r keep going?
A. That ' s when we were coming back. That ' s when I ' d
seen t he bodi es. W e were coming back. We wer en' t searchzng it
o r nothing. The r e s t of them had supposedly searched, t he 1st
Pl at oon. I don' t know. When I come through and seen t h e bodi es
we were j us t - -
Q ( I nt er posi ng) Going sout h?
A. Heading back towards t he bri dge.
Q You don ' t know what day it was - -
A. ( I nt er posi ng) I know t he bodi es had al r eady swel-
l e d up and t urned bl ack. I t coul d have been t he day bef or e we
went acr oss t h a t br i dge. I t coul d have happe'ned t h a t morning.
The bodi es had swol l en up and t urned bl ack. To me it looked
l i k e it had t o happened t he day bef or e. Afai n, wi t h bodi es it
don' t t ake l ong wi t h t h a t heat .
COL WILSON: There was onl y one woman i n t h a t group?
A. That I seen.
Q What ki nds of wounds d i d t hey have?
A. I d i d n ' t even check them. Li ke I s a i d , we j u s t
went on t hrough It , and I j u s t gl anced over and l ooked a t
them.
LTC NOLL: Do you know what t h e 3d Pl at oon and mor t ar pl at oon
di d t h a t morning when you cr os s ed t h a t br i dge?
A. Ri ght a f t e r we got acr os s t h e br i dge, i f I ' m not bad
mi st aken, he had t h e mor t ar t ubes set up. H e had them set up
r i g h t t h e r e where t h a t l i e ut e na nt - - w e l l , we d i d n ' t move t h e r e
u n t i l r i g h t a f t e r t h i s l i e ut e na nt come i n t o j oi n us . Thi s
phot ogr apher , r e por t e r come i n , and we moved j u s t a l i t t l e ways.
Q What t i m e d i d Li eut enant MUNDY g e t out t h e r e wi t h
t h a t phot ogr apher ?
A. I don' t know t h e t i m e . I t was n' t t oo l ong a f t e r t h i s
expl osi on. W e had j u s t went acr os s t h e br i dge. W e had j u s t s t a r t e c
moving agai n and we got t h e c a l l . I hear d it over t h e company ne t .
H e d i d n ' t cal l b a t t a l i o n . He c a l l e d company ne t t h a t we wa s re-
cei vi ng a r e por t e r and anot her l i e ut e na nt .
Q Did you pas s t hrough t h i s v i l l a g e ?
A. Not r i g h t t hen, no. That was a f t e r we was coming
back. W e al r eady went on up t o t h e poi nt , and w e r e coming back.
There wa s a s m a l l - - I mean it had al r eady bur nt down - - on up
p a s t t h i s v i l l a g e a l l t he s e peopl e had been i n . We went r i g h t on
p a s t t he r e . Tha t ' s when t h i s l i e ut e na nt wi t h t h i s phot ographer - -
we w a s goi ng up t h i s l i ne . We j u s t got s hot a t . He wa s s o f a r
it f e l l s h o r t , r e a l l y . I c a l l e d it i n . He wanted me t o cal l it
i n . I c a l l e d it i n and he s ays , "Can you f i n d o u t where i t ' s
coming from? How many rounds have t hey f i r e d a t you?" Something
l i k e t h i s . I l e t t h e l i e ut e na nt t a l k t o him. H e wa s ner vous,
green.
COL WILSON: Who was t h e pl at oon l e a de r a f t e r ~ i e u t e n a n tCOCHRAN
was k i l l e d ? W a s it Ser geant LOVE?
A. Th a t ' s r i g h t it wa s Ser geant LOVE.
,Q H e had t h e pl at oon u n t i l Li eut enant LEWIS came out ?
A. Ri ght si r.
Q I want t o be s ur e t h a t I under st and t h i s . Did
Li eut enant LEWIS a l s o see t he s e bodi es o r wa s he t h e r e t hen?
A. H e w a s wi t h us t hen. I don' t know i f he seen the
bodi es o r not . I f he went t he same way he had t o see them
because t h a t ' s where we went i n a l i n e o r column j u s t goi ng
t hrough t h e vi l l a ge .
Q The execut i ve o f f i c e r , Li eut enant MUNDY, supposedl y
came o u t t h e r e t h a t morning, t oo. Did you s e e him?
A. Ri ght , sir. H e came out t he r e t o t e l l - - I don ' t
know e xa c t l y what he w a s supposed t o come and t e l l t h i s l i e ut e na nt
t h a t wa s wi t h us . Real l y, I don' t know what he d i d come out t he r e
f or . I know he come i n a chopper and he went r i g h t back out
on t h e chopper. He d i d n ' t t r a v e l t oo f a r wi t h us .
N
Q Did Li eut enant MUNDY have an oppor t uni t y t o s e e t he s e
bodi es from where he w a s l ocat ed?
bJ
A. I r e a l l y c oul nd' t say. I know he l ef t . Whether
8
N
he went of f and went up i n t h a t v i l l a g e o r not , I c oul dn' t s ay.
I r e a l l y don' t know.
Q As you moved down t he beach, t he r e were supposed t o
be two VC engaged and one VC KI A. Do you remember t h i s ? That
w a s r epor t ed a t 1320, Task Force Barker.
A. As we was moving t hrough t he vi l l a ge ?
Q Thi s was down s out h of t he v i l l a g e less t han a 3000
meters.
A. Thi s was when we were goi ng on up. W e w a s r unni ng - -
w e ' r e goi ng al ong t h a t - - I don' t know i f t h e o t h e r pl at oon s hot
anybody o r not . From t h e r a di o - - t h e r e was n' t nobody t h a t
r epor t ed anyt hi ng. U p u n t i l we s t a r t e d r e c e i vi ng some s ni pe r f i r e ,
we r epor t ed t h a t . Af t e r t h a t it s o r t of qui e t e d o f f and we con-
t i nued down t h a t end.
Q L e t ' s s t o p a mi nut e. Let me show you what happened.
The r e por t w a s a t 1320. We be l i e ve it wa s on t h e beach somewhere
APP T-349
over by t h e beach.
A. W e l l , now, we d i d encount er - - a f t e r t h e s ni pe r f i r e
had q u i t we s t a r t e d moving out agai n. These sampans we r e headi ng
toward t h e beach. They seen us moving al ong t h e beach. They
t ur ned around and went back out t o t he open w a t e r s , w e l l o u t of
range. Tehy l ooked l i k e t hey were headi ng around t h e end of t h i s ,
s out h t o t h i s o t h e r wat er down t he r e . We kept goi ng. Then we
deci ded we wanted t o g e t on t h i s hi gh r i s e s o i t would be easier
wal ki ng. W e went up on t h i s hi gh rise. There w a s a young man i n
t he vi l l a ge . A r e a l young man. We were goi ng t o cat ch him. We
hol l e r e d a t him. H e s t a r t e d runni ng j u s t a s f a s t as he coul d.
We s hot him, b u t he d i d n ' t s t a y t he r e . W e d i d n ' t k i l l him. There
was some rice paddi es and l i t t l e o l d - - I guess t hey use i t f o r
t he water suppl y o r somet hi ng f r e s h water. H e h i t t h a t . It had
t a l l gr a s s around it and ever yt hi ng, and we c oul dn' t f i n d him.
That ' s t h e v i l l a g e I saw t h a t had al r eady been bur nt compl et el y t o
t he ground. They was j u s t r e bui l di ng t h e v i l l a g e when we went i n
t her e. Thi s happened wi t h t h e pl at oon I was i n . That was t he onl y
one t h a t I know of t h a t had done any s hoot i ng a f t e r Li eut enant
LEWIS had j oi ned us.
Q A s you moved s out h coul d you move al ong t h e coas t ?
D i d you move t hrough t h e vi l l a ge s ?
4
A. N o , si r. Af t e r we s een t h i s guy we went down i n t o t h e -4
v i l l a g e and moved t hrough it. Then we went r i g h t on t o t h e end. d
Af t e r t h a t , we g o t t o t he end. The whole company was t h e r e a t
t h e end. I not i ced a p i c t u r e a whi l e ago t h a t l ooked l i k e it
was t aken r i g h t on t h e end.
Q Did you a l l burn' any v i l l a g e s o r was t h a t t h e 1st
Pl at oon t h a t wa s bur ni ng the v i l l a g e s ?
A. That was 1st Pl at oon. They burned t h a t v i l l a g e t he
peopl e were l a yi ng i n .
Q How many peopl e do you es t i mat e w e r e i n t he r e ?
A. You mean dead?
Q. Y e s .
A. I woul dn' t have t he s l i g h t e s t idea. A t t h e f a r end of
t h e v i l l a g e t h e r e were q u i t e a few peopl e a t t h a t poi nt , t h a t
f i nge r poi nt . There was qui t e a few peopl e t her e. Mostly women
and chi l dr en and r e a l ol d men. Right acr oss t he r e was some wat er
di vi di ng anot her pl ace l i k e t h i s . There was a l a r ge number of
peopl e over t her e.
Q
Did you have any reason t o bel i eve t h a t t her e were
any dead down t her e?
A. No, sir. I t w a s j us t a smal l f i nger . I f anybody was
dead out t her e you coul d have seen them. The onl y way t hey coul d
di spose of t he bodi es was bury it r e a l deep o r throw it out t o
s ea.
Q Did you s ee any ARVN w i t h t he column t h a t day?
A. Not wi t h us.
Did you ever s ee a wdman t h a t TAYLOR had used t o run
ha
Q F
t h e poi nt ?
k?.'
A. H e would grab - - we a l l would, not j us t him. Any p o i n t a
man i f we was going thtough a vi l l a ge we would grab t he f i r s t pe r s op
t h a t would come up. I f t her e was a booby t r a p t hey would not go down
it. We won' t go down it then.
Q We have i ndi cat i ons t h a t TAYLOR had a woman usi ng
he r f o r poi nt t he f i r s t day and t he fol l owi ng morning. Then she
was t urned over t o t he ARVN who was wi t h B Company, probably wi t h
t he headquart ers element. You never di d s ee t h i s ?
A. No, I di dn' t s ee no ARVN t h a t day.
Q Do you recogni ze t h i s vi l l a ge i n Exhi bi t P-212?
A. Right. That i s it i n t he f i nger . I t was r i g h t on t he
end of t h a t f i nge r t i p . Here i s t h a t waterway I was t a l ki ng about '
and over t he r e were my people.
Q A l l r i g h t . Was t h i s vi l l a ge burned, P-212?
A. Not when we l e f t it. I t was s t i l l st andi ng. I t was a l l
i n t a c t .
Q Were any peopl e i n t her e?
A. Right. There were some peopl e i n t her e. There was
some women and chi l dr en, i f I ' m not mistaken, i n one or two of
t hese hootches. We di dn' t even t ake time t o even go through
t he hootches. We j us t went t o t he end of it. I don' t know why
o r f o r what purpose we went t o t he end of it, t ur ned around, and
come r i g h t back.
Q. Did you s ee Colonel BARKER o r Major CALHOUN come i n
down t her e?
A. There was a chopper supposed t o l and, but I don' t
know i f it di d o r s ee i f anybody got of f of it.
Q = A l l r i ght . You t urned around and went back. A t t h e
time you were qoing down o r t he time you were going back, e i t h e r
one, di d you look over t o t he west , which would have been acr os s
t he r i v e r , and di d you s ee any burni ng going on?
A. W e s ur e di d. There was a l a r ge f i r e over t her e.
There was a l o t of shoot i ng going on over t he r e a t t h a t t i m e .
Right a f t e r t h a t somebody bur nt t h a t l ar ge vi l l a ge .
Q What l ar ge vi l l age?
At W e l l , it appeared t o be a l a r ge vi l l a ge from t he f i r e
and s t u f f t h a t was over t her e.
Q Who burned i t ?
A. I guess t he r e was anot her - -
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) Across t he r i ve r ?
A. When we looked t o t he l e f t , as I was going back, it would
be on t he l e f t .
Q- Do you know which vi l l a ge it was?
A. No, sir. I t was acr oss t he waterway I know t h a t . I
don ' t know what company it was. I know t her e was a l ar ge f i r e
coming from over t her e. There was a l o t of shoot i ng t h a t took
pl ace over t he r e . W e was coming back from t h i s poi nt her e and
a f t e r you ge t back up i n her e - -
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Let the record show t h a t we a r e t a l ki ng
APP T-349
about P-212. And you s a i d you w e r e coming back from t h i s poi nt .
A. W e headed back t oward t h i s br i dge. W e w e r e goi ng back
t owards t h i s . W e were headi ng back i n t he r e . We had j u s t got t e n
t o t h e veget at i on. It was n' t real t hi c k. W e ha dn' t even got t e n
t o t h e v i l l a g e y e t , where t hos e bodi es w e r e . W e l ooked of f t h e r e
and t he r e was a l o t of bur ni ng.
COL WILSON: Thi s i s acr os s t h e r i v e r ?
A. Ri ght .
LTC NOLL: How about t h e 1st Pl at oon? Were t hos e v i l l a g e s l a r ge
t h a t t hey burned?
A. W e l l , t hey w e r e bi gge r t han t hes e. They w a s hoot ches - l
t h a t t hey were bur ni ng. They were s t andi ng up on pol es and had
ni c e t ops on, s t u f f l i k e t h a t .
What do you mean by a ni c e t op?
\
a
A. W e l l , it was a b e t t e r t op t han t h i s . They p u t it )r
c l o s e r t oget her .
COL WILSON: The wi t nes s i s r e f e r r i n g t o phot o P-213.
A. I t ' s a b e t t e r t op t han t h i s . They wove it c l o s e r
t oget her . They g e t up on t h e t op and put i t on. Then t hey hang
t h i s l oos e s t u f f on t op of it and put it on t h e s i d e dr ape it on
t h e s i de s . They were j u s t bef or e put t i ng mud t o make a mud hoot ch.
They would put mud around it. I t would be a ni c e - - w e l l , it i s
a n i c e pl a c e f o r them over t he r e . I t t ur ned out t o be a ni c e pl ace
f o r peopl e t o l i v e i n .
Q Did you s e e any peopl e i n e i t h e r of t he s e two v i l l a g e s ?
D i d you s e e any peopl e o t h e r t han down her e a t t h e poi nt ?
A. Not a l i v e .
Q You s a w t h e one man you s hot a t ?
A. Ri ght . Ri ght i n t he r e . There wa s a b l i n d man i n t h i s
one. A r e a l o l d man. He was bl i nd. The r eason why I know t h a t I
walked down t he r e . They had a new cons t r uct i on of a home t h e r e and
t he r e wa s an underground t hi ng. I d i d n ' t want t o go i n . There was
a s t r i n g t h a t he had a hol d of and it was a cord he had t i e d t her e.
I don' t know i f t h a t was t o enabl e him t o go back down t her e o r not .
I don' t know why. A bl i nd man c a n ' t bui l d a house. There was a
const r uct i on of a home going up r i g h t besi de t ha t . I d i d n ' t go
i n t o s ee i f t he r e was anymore i n t her e o r not because Li eut enant
LEWIS d i d n ' t want me t o p u l l t h a t s t r i n g t o s t a r t wi t h. I onl y
know what t h a t s t r i n g was at t ached t o. I pul l ed it and not hi ng
happened.
Q
What happened t o t he ol d man, di d he s t a y t her e?
At That bl i nd man?
Q Yes.
A. We d i d n ' t even bot her him. We r epor t ed t h a t t he r e
was a di s abl ed man t her e. They j us t s a i d l eave him. He wasn' t
even worth t a l ki ng t o.
LTC NOLL: Evi dent l y you heard some shoot i ng t o t he west . Was
t h i s t he 1st Pl at oon o r t he ot her company?
A. I t was t he ot he r company. Af t er we had t urned around '
and s t a r t e d back t h a t was t he ot her company because t he r e was no
f i r i n g t h a t took pl ace t her e.
Q Do you know i f t he 1st Pl at oon ever engaged t he boat s
out here i n t h i s st ream t o t he west of Co Lay (1) o r Co Lay ( 2 ) ?
Do you know i f t hey ever engaged a boat anywhere along i n here?
A. We a l l di d a t one time a f t e r we had crossed t he r i ve r .
This i s a f t e r we had al ready gone back acr oss t her e.
Q . You a l l engaged them?
A. Right. Not j us t t he boat t her e were, oh, I don' t
know how many swimming acr oss t he r i ve r . We got c a l l e d and t o l d
t o go down t her e and i nves t i gat e it. They was al r eady h i t t i n g t h e
wat er swimming down t r yi ng t o ge t away from us.
Q Who was i nvol ved i n t h i s , t he 1st o r 2d Pl at oons?
A. They was more o r l e s s t he 1st and 2d and t he CP
group and t hey l e f t a pl at oon back t o secure t he l aager po-
s i t i ons . We had al ready s t a r t e d t o l aager i n and we got a
cal l t o go down t he r e , and we hus t l e d down t he r e . Now, t h i s
happened bef or e, t hough, I was g e t t i n g ready t o f i l l t h e o l d
man i n . It happened bef or e we went i n t he r e . There wa s a
boat i n t h a t bunch we blowed it up.
Q Did t h a t happen up her e i n t h e Song D i e m D i e m Ri ver o r
d i d it happen down her e?
A. Wel l , it d i d n ' t happen down i n t h i s , back t owards - -
what I ' m t a l k i n g about it would be back up t owards t h e br i dge. It
was back up t h i s way. A s f a r as I can r e c a l l , t he r e was n' t no
boat s on t h i s t hi ng except them sampans t h a t headed i n t o us . That
I can r e c a l l . I t might have been t h e D i e m Di e m.
Q I n o t h e r words, when you were down her e not hi ng l i k e
t h a t had happened?
A. No.
Q When you st opped a t My Khe ( 4 ) you don' t recal l en-
gagi ng any sampans?
A. We wanted t o engage them. They seen us and t ur ned
around and went back. We wanted t o see what was t a ki ng pl ace.
What t hey had i n t h e r e t hey d i d n ' t want us t o see, b u t t hey t ur ned
around bef or e t hey e ve r got c l o s e t o t h e shor e l i n e . They j u s t
went back.
Q I don' t blame them.
A. Wel l , i f t hey had somet hi ng t o hi de.
COL WILSON: You went back up t o t he - - l aager ed t h a t ni ght . Do
you remember anybody coming i n ? Do you remember any ARVN o r V i e t -
namese coming i n ? Anything unusual t aki ng pl a c e t h a t ni ght ? W e
under st and t h e mor t ar pl at oon di s pl aced, and l aager ed wi t h you.
The 3d Pl at oon s t a ye d up t he r e by t he br i dge.
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t . Coming back o u t , we had moved
way up i n t o her e c l e a r up p a s t t h a t r i v e r back up t h e r i v e r . That ' s
when we engaged t hos e peopl e. That coul d have been bef or e we went
down t he r e . A t one t i m e it w a s al r eady a f t e r we had set , up f o r
l aager . W e g o t r es uppl i ed and we got a c a l l t o i n v e s t i g a t e t h a t .
W e went down t he r e . There must have been 20 o r 30 of them
h i t t h e wat er . They had j us t got i n t h e w a t e r and got halfway
acr os s - -
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) Thi s i s whi l e you s t i l l w e r e wi t h t h e
company commander?
A. Ri ght . That took pl ace bef or e we went on down i n
t her e. That same company t h a t I mentioned we seen a s we moved
up. Everyt hi ng was headi ng towards t h i s br i dge t o go on acr os s
and sear ch. They had a l s o supposed t o have gone down t he r e and
checked on t hos e peopl e t h a t we engaged t h a t ni ght . They had
t o move a t ni ght down t he r e . I t was dark.
Q A r e we t a l ki ng about t h i s oper at i on?
A. Right. A l l t h a t happened on t h e same oper at i on.
Q That was never r epor t ed.
A. W e l l , t hey d i d n ' t come up wi t h no bodi es, but we
know t he r e was k i l l s because when you s ee - - when you shoot
them i n t h e head, t hey go t o t h e bottom. There was some
choppers f l yi ng over s e ve r a l days a f t e r t h a t . They s a i d some
bodi es had come back t o t he t op of t he wat er , but we coul dn' t
r e por t it. H e c a l l e d i n and t o l d them what happened. They
s a i d, "Well, t hen you a c t ua l l y c a n ' t prove you got any KIA' s",
and t he capt ai n s ays , "No." So t he r e was not hi ng e ve r s a i d
about t h a t but t hey was a l l - - you coul d t e l l t hey was n' t
ol d people because t hey w e r e moving and swimming t oo f a s t .
They were dr es s ed i n s o l i d bl ack. Di dn' t even have no h a t s
on o r not hi ng.
Q. Now, a s f a r a s t h e l a a ge r goes t h a t ni ght , t he 17t h
you d i d n ' t have anyt hi ng i n p a r t i c u l a r t h a t you remember?
(Witness shakes head i n t he negat i ve. )
A l l r i g h t . The morning of t he 18t h t he company
l e f t and moved back nor t h t o t he br i dge. The 3d Pl at oon
was supposed t o have found 3,000 pounds of r i c e . Do you
remember t h a t ?
A. I remember t ha t .
Q What happened? Anything i n p a r t i c u l a r about t h a t ?
APP T-349
A.
The r eason why I remember it r e a l good i s because I
s houl dn' t say t h i s , but t he r e was a s er geant who sucker ed a new
l i e ut e na nt i n t h e r e t hi nki ng we had t o c a r r y it.
Q
But t h e r e was n' t a l i e ut e na nt wi t h t h a t pl at oon.
A.
Not wi t h t h a t pl at oon, no, but wi t h t h e pl at oon I had
j oi ned t h e r e wa s .
Q Oh, Li eut enant LEWIS. You' re s ayi ng you got Li eut enant
LEWIS t o c a r r y it.
A. Ri ght .
Q Is t h a t what you mean?
A. Ri ght .
H e got t o t hi nki ng about it a f t e r he had
al r eady g o t saddl ed up and moving o u t , and he dropped it.
Tha t ' s t h e r eason why I can remember t h a t i nc i de nt r e a l good.
N
k-'
Q Tha t ' s q u i t e a l oad, i s n ' t i t ? I b:;
pa:
A. It i s. I
=I
Q - Even f o r a l i e ut e na nt .
A. I mentioned it t o him. I s a i d , " Si r , do you r e a l l y
t hi nk w e ' r e supposed t o c a r r y t h i s ? " W e moved down t h a t beach
l i n e goi ng - - when we s t a r t e d moving out a f t e r t h e ri ce w a s
found we w a s moving up on t he a r e a where "Jug" g o t k i l l e d .
Q That ' s r i g h t .
A. And we found some mor t ar rounds t h a t ha dn' t expl oded.
So w e det onat ed them.
Q
These mor t ar rounds t h a t you found, w e r e t hey found
i n t h e same v i c i n i t y t h a t you found t he r i c e ?
A. W e l l , it was on up from it a good ways. They w e r e
l a yi ng r i g h t i n t h e wat er l i n e where it was washi ng o f f . They
wa s l a yi ng up i n t he r e .
LTC NOLL: 811s ?
(MERCE R)
APP T-349
I
A. I d o n ' t know what t hey coul d have been. W e found a
couple up on t h a t beach and exploded them.
COL WILSON: A l l r i g h t . You moved on up nor t h t o t h i s vi l l a ge ?
A. There were some peopl e on up i n t h a t vi l l a ge . When
we f i r s t went i n t he r e t he r e was n' t nobody around t he r e , but we
kept goi ng u n t i l we found a l l t he s e peopl e.
Q And you remember what your pl at oon d i d t h a t day? What
p a r t of t h e a r e a you searched?
A. A t t h e t i me we we r e s t i l l on t h a t beach l i n e . W e
w e r e supposed t o s ecur e t he beach l i n e . Check out t h e sampans
and s t u f f l i k e t h a t t h a t was st opped al ong t h a t s i de . W e j u s t
kept going on up l i k e t h a t . I t wasn' t r e a l wide s o t he r e had
been a pl at oon on t he s hor e l i ne , and one goi ng up t he middle,
and one up t he s i de .
Q Three of them.
A. W e were j us t s t r e t c he d out acr os s .
Q You s e n t t he peopl e back.
A. W e l l , i n t h a t f i r s t v i l l a g e t he r e wasn' t anybody i n
it. We got cl os e t o t he end. W e found, and we di dn' t do no-
t hi ng wi t h t hose. They was al r eady s t andi ng out t her e. They
t al ked t o a few, found a bunch of c u t c l ot hi ng and s t u f f l i k e
t ha t . W e j u s t dest r oyed t he cl ot hi ng because it was p a r t s of
uniforms. Some of them looked l i k e p a r t of our s and ot he r
s t u f f . So we j u s t dest r oyed it. Tr i ed t o f i nd a l a r ge amount
of r i c e which you coul dn' t . You coul d j u s t f i n d b a r r e l s of
rice. We woul dn' t even bot her it. There wasn ' t no need i n it.
We t ur ned around and l aager ed back i n . I remember t hes e c i t y
pol i ce. What i t looked l i k e was peopl e t h a t worked i n t h e
c i t y around t h e di r e c t i on of t he peopl e. They come out and
some M I men and i nt e r r oga t e d - - we di d g e t one o r two al ong
t her e. There w a s two. They i nt e r r oga t e d them and t hey t o l d
them t he r e was supposed t o be a t unnel wi t h weapons and a l l
t h a t i n t her e. They went up and never di d f i nd it, and t hey
br ought them on i n .
Q. When you got back down t o where you went i n t o t h e
l aager t h a t eveni ng di d you see a medical team down t her e?
53 APP T-349
Did you see a bunch of c i vi l i a ns , somewhere near t he r e bei ng
processed by medics? They would have been r i g h t i n t he same
area.
A. Right. They would have been i n t he f i r s t vi l l a ge we
come up on.
Q They would probably have been near where t h e M I people
were.
.e
A. Well, t he M I people come out a f t e r we s t a r t e d t o l aager
i n t o t a l k t o t hose peopl e.
Q How many di d t hey t a l k t o?
A-. We had two t h a t I can remember. They was r i g h t i n our - -
where 2d Pl at oon w a s going t o l aager t h a t ni ght . There was a l i t t l e
mound of d i r t p i l e d up t her e. t hey d i d n ' t want everybody t o s e e how
t hey i nt er r ogat ed them.
Q Why d i d n ' t t hey want anybody t o s ee how t hey i nt er r ogat ed
them? Did you see any i nt er r ogat i on before?
A. I ' d seen t h i s guy i n t he photgraph i nt e r r oga t e a few.
Thi s i s t he one you c a l l e d Li eut enant JOHNSON I bel i eve. H e i n-
+
t er r ogat ed t hose people back t her e t h a t HUFFMAN had. I f I ' m not
mistaken. t . 4
N
Q. You a r e t a l ki ng about t h i s photo P-22: t he person i n t he
cent er wi t h h i s helmet, back l ooki ng towards t he camera?
A. Right. I ' d seen him i nt e r r oga t e I don' t know how
many, That was whi l e I was s t i l l wi t h t h e company CP, though.
He di dn' t come out on t h i s oper at i on t o i nt e r r oga t e anybody.
Q That ' s what I ' m t r yi ng t o determine. On t h e 18t h, t he
people t h a t were out t her e i nt e r r oga t i ng - -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) I had never seen h i m bef or e up u n t i l
t h a t ni ght . They i nt er r ogat ed tham and t hey l e f t . I don' t
t hi nk t hey s pent t he ni ght wi t h us.
Q On t he 18t h?
A. That ' s t he ni ght MILUS got k i l l e d .
(MERCER) 54
APP T-349
Q Tha t ' s r i g h t . The M I peopl e t h a t w e r e o u t t h e r e t h a t
day - - w a s he o u t t h e r e t h a t day?
A. No. I d i d n ' t see him.
Q Do you know t h e M I per son t h a t w a s out t h e r e t h a t
day?
A. I don' t know h i s name. I don' t know if I would recog-
ni z e him They j u s t wanted everybody bes i de t h e c a pt a i n. They d i d n u -
want anybody around. Go back t o your bus i nes s , g e t away.
Q. Do you remember what t h i s guy l ooked l i k e ?
A. I ' m t r y i n g t o pl ace h i s f ace.
Q. Do you know i f he c a r r i e d a b i g kni f e l i k e a bowie
kni ef ?
A. I know he c a r r i e d somet hi ng i n a l a ndl i ne , a l a ndl i ne
phone.
Q The phone? Did he c a r r y t h a t wi t h a s t r a p over h i s
shoul der o r how d i d he c a r r y i t ?
A. H e j u s t c a r r i e d it wi t h him j u s t normal .
Q Thi s was an American?
A. r i g h t .
Q H e was i n uniform?
A. Y e s .
Q - Do you know what h i s gr ade was?
A.
When them peopl e come out you d i d n ' t know not hi ng about
them.
W e d i d n ' t know what t hey we r e .
Q W a s t h e r e any Vietnamese wi t h him?
A. There was one.
Q. Did you s e e him use t h i s phone?
APP T-349
A. No . I d i d n ' t s e e him use it, but I hear d he di d. I
d i d n ' t s e e him do it.
Q Did you he a r of him us i ng it t h a t day?
A. Not t h a t day, but I hear d he w a s known t o do t h a t .
Q Did you ever see t h i s per son agai n?
A. No. I j u s t seen him t h a t day. I never s een him no
more. I know s h o r t l y a f t e r t hey got 'done t a l k i n g t o them t hey
had t o c a r r y one t o t h e ocean. I hear d t h a t he messed h i s b r i t -
ches. I d o n ' t know by what.
Q I show you Exhi bi t P-52. A f ace of an i ndi vi dua l i n
t h e l ower r i g h t cor ner , do you recal l s eei ng him?
A. Yeah. Tha t ' s him r i g h t t he r e .
Q The man i n Exhi bi t P-52 w a s t he one t h a t was out t h e r e t~
t h a t day. 1
A.
b:
I t l ooks j u s t l i k e him. H e w a s bald-head$d and l ooked b,-,
j u s t l i k e t h a t .
IC1
Q With t h e EE-8 phones? I mean wi t h t h e t el ephone?
A. Ri ght ,
Q And t h e wi r e?
A. I j u s t know t h a t he had t he phone. I don' t know
whet her he had any wi r e o r not .
Q H e had t he phone? H e w a s o u t t he r e t h a t day?
A. That l ooks e xa c t l y l i k e t he same man.
Q And you hear d t h a t t h i s guy t h a t had t o go o u t and
cl ean h i s br i t c he s ? Is he t h e one t h a t i nt e r r oga t e d him?
A. Ri ght . H e i nt e r r oga t e d bot h of them. H i m a n d - t h a t
Vietnamese.
Q Le t t h e r ecor d show t h a t t he wi t nes s i d e n t i f i e d Capt ai n
KOTOUC i n phot o Exhi bi t P-52.
56
APP T-349
A. That ' s t he same man.
Q Did you see anyt hi ng e l s e on i nt er r ogat i ons going
on t h a t day, as i de from t h a t one?
A. No, t h a t was a l l .
Q You say t he r e were onl y two people i nt er r ogat ed?
A. That ' s a l l I can remember. There were two peopl e.
There might have been a t h i r d one, but I don' t . r e c a l l t he
t h i r d one. I j u s t know of two.
Q
Did you see capt ai n KOTOUC, t he man you i de nt i f i e d,
a t any ot her time dur i ng t he oper at i on except on t h a t one day?
A. J u s t on t h a t one day. I don ' t know i f he s pent 30
or 40 minutes o r an hour. I j us t r e c a l l t h a t orle time t h a t I
seen him.
Q A l l r i g h t , you went i n t o a l aager pos i t i on t h a t
ni ght . A s we understand t he format i on, t he 1st pl at oon w a s
on t he e a s t , and t he 2d pl at oon was i n t he cent er , and t h e 3d
pl at oon was on t he l e f t .
A. Wait a minute. The 2d pl at oon was on t he l e f t ,
and t he 3d pl at oon was i n t he cent er and t he 1st pl at oon. W e
di dn' t have t o worry about t he back because of t he ocean.
Q Okay. l e t ' s t ake a look a t t he area t h a t you were
i n basi ng it on di r e c t i on. You were r i g h t i n t h i s ar ea her e.
Your 1st pl at oon was f aci ng more t o t h e e a s t . They j oi ned
t her e l e f t f l ank w i t h the-,-
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) 3d Pl at oon. Then we made it back--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) The 2d Pl at oon was f aci ng west .
A. They headed l i k e t h a t t hen t he 1st Pl at oon, 3d Pla-
toon and 2d Pl at oon. By t he time we got s t r et ched out we l i nk-
ed back up t o t h e beach l i n e .
Q We ' ve got a pr e t t y good account of t h a t ( r e f e r r i ng
t o Exhi bi t M-46) . A t 0130 t he r e was one k i l l e d . That was MILUS
APP T-349
and f i v e wounded. Fi f t e e n, s i xt e e n mor t ar rounds a t 0144. Re-
que s t f o r dus t of f and a l i g h t f i r e team. A t 0244 t h e dus t of f
w a s compl et e. A t 0250 r eques t ed a "Spooky. " A t 0350 "Spooky"
w a s on s t a t i o n . A t 0440 r ecei ved anot her mor t ar round. Can
you remember t h a t ?
Y e s , sir.
One round?
I s ur e do.
Q.- Wasn' t t h a t ki nd of unusual ?
A. No, sir.
Q Why?
A. One ni ght I know we onl y r ecei ved one round. I t
k i l l e d one guy. W e di dn I t g e t no more. There wasn ' t not hi ng, W
t hen. That ni ght r i g h t t he r e , t h i s happened r i g h t when MILUS P
got k i l l e d . I don' t know how many came i n and e v e r y t h i q g o t
ti:
qui e t . I mean i t j u s t q u i t . I t j u s t t ur ned on and t ur nkd o f f .
k-'
You coul d he a r it coming. Tha t ' s a l l t h a t was s hot wa s ~ n e
a3
round. They w a s a gunshi p on t h e way out . W e g o t t h e gunshi ps
i n t her e. They come i n. The company commander had gi ved them
approxi mat el y where our per i met er was. They s t r a f e d t ha* a r e a
around i n t he r e , and it was q u i e t t he rest of t h e ni ght . I t
w a s a s q u i e t if not hi ng happened.
Q But t h e r e w a s a round t h a t came i n a t 0440?
A. Not t oo f a r from--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Tha t ' s 3 hour s a f t e r the--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) W e l l , we d i d n ' t know what was goi ng t o hap-
pen. We d i d n ' t know whet her t hey was goi ng t o h i t us a l l a t
once o r j u s t l eave us al one a f t e r MILUS got 2t . The gunshi ps
were j u s t about --wel l , I don ' t know i f t hey had al r eady gone
o r were s t i l l gi vi ng it a pr ep. I know t he r e w a s a round come
i n because it l anded not t oo f a r from where I w a s at .
Q W e don ' t have any r ecor d of t h e "Spooky" C- 47 gun-
s h i p goi ng of f s t a t i o n . I t came on a t 0350. I t would appear
t h a t would have s t ayed on s t a t i o n a t l e a s t f o r b e t t e r t han an
hour. What seems t o be unusual t o me i s t h a t C- 47 up t he r e
making a l l t h a t noi s e on s t a t i o n t h a t t hey would fi re t he mor-
t a r agai n.
A. That w a s j u s t l i k e t he ni ght bef or e we moved up -
i n t he r e . W e had one man k i l l e d . That happened t he same
way. W e d i d n ' t have a "Spooky" t he r e . That ni ght t h e "Spooky"
di d come on which wa s t h a t ni ght t he r e . W e had t hought
t hey had al r eady q u i t . Nothing e l s e was goi ng t o happen.
They opened t h e f i r s t t i me. That wa s j u s t bef or e MILUS g o t
k i l l e d . They opened up one t i m e and t hey q u i t . They opened
up agai n and t h a t ' s when t h e mor t ar round, and MI LUS got k i l l e d .
I don' t know what k i l l e d him. I know t hey opened up one t i m e .
I n j u s t a few mi nut es t h e r e was n' t no f i r i n g . Then t hey come
back agai n and MILUS got it. Where I w a s a t and where Li eut en-
a nt LEWIS w a s a t t h e s hr apnel h i t s o c l os e t h a t you coul d
p r a c t i c a l l y see it. I n f a c t , i f t he r e was a l i t t l e da yl i ght
you coul d have s een it. I t was n' t l andi ng t oo f a r from us .
It j u s t f e l l s h o r t of our f oxhol e.
Q. W a s t h e r e any smal l arms f i r e wi t h t h a t mor t ar at-
t ack?
A. Not t h a t I can r e c a l l . I know t h a t we r et ur ned
some f i r e . I don ' t know i f t hey knew what t hey w a s s hoot i ng
a t o r not .
Q A l l r i g h t . The next morning w e r e t he r e any pr i s on-
e r s t her e?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l i f t hey ke pt t h e two pr i s one r s o r
not .
Q Did you s e e t h a t man i n phot o P-215?
A. I don' t know i f I seen him o r not . I may have had,
but I don' t r e c a l l s e e i ng him. I f he wa s t he r e I might n o t
have seen him. I don' t know i f t h e two s t ayed t h e n i g h t o r
not .
9. You mentioned t h a t one of t hes e pr i s one r s t h a t wa s
i nt e r r oga t e d had t o go wash h i s b r i t c h e s o f f .
A. Ri ght . That w a s j u s t what t hey s a i d because t hey
c a r r i e d him o u t t o t h e ocean.
Q Was t h a t t he one who was i nt er r ogat ed by t h e M I ?
A. Y e s .
Captain KOTOUC? Was t h i s t he man?
Q
A. I d i d n ' t s e e h i s f ace. I saw him c a r r y him down
t o t he ocean and br i ng him back, but I di dn' t s ee hi s--I mean
I di dn' t ge t cl os e enough t o r e a l l y say t h a t ' s t he man.
Q Did he have s hor t s on . l i ke' t ha t ?
A. He had on s hor t s . Both of them had on s hor t s . I
don' t know i f t h a t ' s t he same man o r not .
LTC NOLL: What d i d you a l l do t he 18t h once you moved i n wi t h
t he 2d Pl at oon? Did t hey s t a y i n t he CP a r e a or--they moved
a l l t he way up her e t o here?
A. That ' s when we were headed up towards--
E3
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) Yes.
F
w
A. The whole pl ace moved up t o t h i s pl ace. Then, when W
everybody s o r t of got out . The whole company moved i n t o t he r e CQ
and moved back out .
Q. Do you r e c a l l a MEDCAP up t her e t h a t af t er noon, a
l o t of people?
A. Yes.
Q Did you hel p gat her up t he people?
A. That was p a r t of t he 2d Pl at oon' s job. W e moved up
on t he coast . We narrowed down and met i n t he vi l l a ge more
o r l e s s because it was r i g h t a t t he end. We j u s t come i n l i k e
t h a t and we brought t he people.
Q What di d you do? Come down her e and come back?
A. W e di dn' t want t o go over t her e. I t was ge t t i ng
t oo open. W e j us t more o r l e s s got t o t he green t her e. W e
used t o cover over her e, and kept on moving down u n t i l we come
t o t h a t vi l l a ge . We stopped it. I don' t know which pl at oon
6 0
APP T-349
made a c i r c l e and come t hrough it. I n o t h e r words, t hey went
behi nd and come back t hrough it br i ngi ng a few of t he s e peo-
p l e wi t h them. A l l t hey done was j u s t herded them up l i k e
t ha t . They l ooked a t them. We sear ched where t hey wa s a t
and l ef t .
Q Did you l ook a t t h e i r hoot ches?
A. We went t hrough them.
Q You burned t h e day bef or e, on t h e 17t h.
A. That one v i l l a g e .
Q Y e s , t h a t one v i l l a g e .
A. And t h a t w a s it.
Q Did you g e t or de r s not t o burn t he next day?
A. I d o n ' t know i f we got--we d i d n ' t . The onl y or de r
we got w a s j u s t t o s ear ch. They' d i d n ' t t e l l us t o bur n not hi ng.
They j u s t s a i d what ever you f i nd i f i t ' s of i mpor t ance, you
know, l i k e i f you f i n d p i s t o l b e l t s , cant een cover s, anyt hi ng
l i k e t h a t , you can r e por t t h a t and t h a t ' s it. The peopl e i n
t h a t v i l l a g e on t he end w e r e r e a l l y f r i e ndl y t o us .
COL WILSON: The day you moved up t h e r e do you r e c a l l a r t i l -
l e r y marker rounds bei ng f i r e d ?
A.
Moving up t o t h e end of t h a t v i l l a g e where we found
t h e peopl e?
Q. Y e s .
A. No, I don' t . I t coul d have been, but I don' t re-
c a l l any.
Q Do you remember a woman bei ng br ought i n wi t h he r
l e g a l l s l i c e d up?
A. I don' t know i f it w a s a woman o r what , b u t she
had somet hi ng wrong wi t h he r l e g or f oot .
I know t h a t . The
medic went over . I don' t know i f t hey wrapped h e r up o r d i d
somet hi ng f o r h e r o r not .
APP T-349
Q Do you have any knowledge of an i nves t i gat i on o r
i nqui r y bei ng made a f t e r t h i s oper at i on i n Vietnam?
(Witness shakes head i n t he negat i ve. )
Do you remember an or der t o s t op burni ng a t any
time duri ng t he oper at i on?
A. NO, si r.
Q Were you o r anyone you know ever quest i oned on t h i s
oper at i on?
A. No, si r . There wasn' t not hi ng ever s a i d about any
oper at i on we went on.
Q id you have a camera?
A. Yes, sir. I had a motion pi c t ur e camera.
Q Did you t ake it wi t h you?
A. That ' s r i g h t , si r .
Q On t h i s oper at i on?
A. I c a r r i e d i t wi t h me. I recei ved it about a month
a f t e r I got i n 'Nam and I c a r r i e d it w i t h me throughout my t our
over t her e.
Q 8 mi l l i met er ?
A. Regular 8 mi l l i met er .
Q . Do you have any photographs t h a t we coul d ask you
t o l e t us borrow and pos s i bl y reproduce them?
A. Well, as f a r a s I know, you a l l have them because
I had them mailed and developed, and I have never recei ved
them. They never have been r et ur ned t o me.
Q When was t h i s ?
A. I had them mailed out when I was over i n ' Na m t o
(MERCER) 62 - APP T-349
Kodak. I never recei ved not hi ng of f of it.
Q So you di dn' t get them back?
A. No, sir. I have one r o l l of f i l m and ha l f of t h a t
has been blanked. That ' s it.
Q On t h i s oper at i on?
A. I c a r r i e d a r o l l and j us t took what I wanted t o
t ake. Half of it had been bl ot t e d out . I wanted t o s ee it
when I got back and s ee what i t was. When I got home I found
out I di dn' t have but one r o l l of fi l m. I don' t know where
t he ot her s went. I heard not hi ng at a l l about it. I j u s t
assumed t h a t Kodak had an agreement wi t h you a l l t o t ake f i l m
o r something l i k e t ha t .
Q What d i d you have on i t ?
A. I had a l o t of c r ue l t hi ngs on it.
Q A l o t of what?
A. W e l l , I had people t h a t was maybe s hot , one arm
hanging o r something.
Q. Was i t on t h i s operat i on?
A. No, it wasn' t neces s ar i l y. Any oper at i on we went
on. When I got cl os e t o somebody t h a t had been l a i d open o r
something, I wanted t o t ake a pi c t ur e of it. I took a pi c t ur e
of burning and everyt hi ng.
Q Do you have a r ecor d of t h i s photography? Do you
have any cl ai m check?
A. No, si r.
Q. When you mailed i t ?
A. I had a boy i n t he back t o mai l them f o r me . H e
mailed them a l l . I would have them s e nt t o my wi f e. She would
send them t o have them developed. She wrote--I asked he r i f s he
recei ved t he f i l m and she never had recei ved them. I don ' t even
know i f t hey even l e f t Vietnam. The boy, I asked him about
it and he mai l ed them. H e wrapped them up and mai l ed them
f o r me . I don' t know whether--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Who wa s t h i s ?
A. H e was a l i t t l e col or ed guy.
Q - Was he i n t he company?
A. Ri ght . H e w a s i n t he r e a r . "Bess" i s what we c a l l e d
him. Tha t ' s a l l I know him as, "Bess. " W i l l i e , "Bess" o r something
l i k e t h a t .
Q. And he s a i d he mai l ed them?
A. Ri ght . The one I have got i s not r e a l l y wort h ev-
en l ooki ng a t because t h e r e ' s not hi ng har dl y on them,
Q I f you g e t back and you can f i n d anyt hi ng t h a t can
i d e n t i f y t h e da t e and t i m e t h a t t h i s w a s mai l ed, o r i f you
have a cl ai m check o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t we would l i k e f o r you
t o c a l l us back. You've got our number and pas s it back t o N
us if t he r e i s any way we can i d e n t i f y t hos e. )ld
A. I wa s r e a l l y want i ng them f o r my own use. I f you
t-...'
K?
f e e l down and out , j u s t l ook a t some of them. I wanted them N
t o show t o a coupl e of my f r i e nds and t h a t was it. I never
r ecei ved them. I don' t even know i f t hey l e f t Vietnam. I
would j u s t gi ve him t he money t o mai l it wi t h. When I would
come i n I would ask him d i d he g e t a chance t o m a i l it, and
he s a i d , "Yeah, I s e n t them home. "
Q How many w e r e t he r e ?
A. I be l i e ve I had t hr e e r o l l s . Wel l , f our count i ng
t h e one I ' v e got . I r ecei ved one back. Of cour s e, my wi f e
got t h a t one back. Ther e' s onl y a few feet of f i l m on t h a t
you can s ee. The rest i s j u s t bl ot t ed- out .
Q W e l l , you check when you g e t back and s e e i f you
can f i nd a r ecor d of t h a t . W e ' l l go t o Kodak.
A. I t was a Kodak f i l m. I j u s t s e n t it back i n t h e
cont ai ner . Tha t ' s where I s e n t it t o . R e e l 8 m i l l i m e t e r .
(MERCE R) 64 APP T-349
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY'
Q Do you have a r e e l camera?
A. I t ' s a r egul ar 8 m i l l i m e t e r movie camera.
Q D There a r e two t ypes. One i s t he 8 millimeter r o l l
f i l m and t h e ot her i s 8 mi l l i met er packet . It works automa-t-
i c a l l y .
A. Oh, no, i t ' s not aut omat i c.
Q It was r o l l ?
A. Y e s .
Q. You have t o t a k e t he f i l m out , i f i t ' s hal f - f i ni s hed
and t ur n i t ? Ri ght ?
A. Yeah. When you t ake it out one s i d e you have t o
t ur n it over.
Q Tha t ' s t h e r o l l . Did you ever hear any rumors t h a t
c i v i l i a n s had been k i l l e d unnecessar i l y by B/ 4/ 3 o r C/1/20?
A. I hear d about one company who got ki cked out of Task
Force Barker because t hey more o r l e s s wiped out a v i l l a g e .
Q Which company was t h i s ?
A. I don' t r e c a l l i f i t was C Company o r D e l t a Comp-
any o r which one. I t hi nk t he r e was j u s t two companies t h a t
w a s i n Task Force Barker i n t h e 11t h Brigade. That ' s a l l I
knew of anyway. That company--when I got back t o Dot t i e one
day I hear d t hey ki cked out because t hey wiped out a vi l l a ge .
Q How l ong a f t e r t h i s oper at i on di d you hear t h a t ?
A. Shor t l y a f t e r it. By t h e t i m e we got back and ev-
er yt hi ng, I guess it was about a week maybe two when we hear d
about it.
Q And who t o l d you t h i s ?
A. Some of t h e guys t h a t was i n t he company. I d i d n ' t
know them. I j u s t walked up t o them. W e was t a l ki ng and
t o l d them we had j u s t got our pass. They s a i d, " W e l l , we c a n P t
go. " Why? " W e l l , we j u s t got ki cked out . "
APP T-349
Q Thi s w a s peopl e from t h e company you w e r e t a l k i n g
t o ? They s a i d t he y g o t ki c ke d out ?
A. They s a i d t he y got ki cked o u t of t h e t a s k f o r c e
because t he y supposedl y had wiped o u t a v i l l a g e , murdered a l l
t h e peopl e.
Q
Did you know t h e s e men you w e r e t a l k i n g t o ?
A. Some of them I d i d , some of them I d i d n ' t .
Q They we r e n' t from B Company?
A. No. They wa s n' t from our company. Then t h e rumor
a l s o g o t around our company t h a t t hey had got ki c ke d o u t , t oo.
I t come from one of t h e s e s e r ge a nt s , Ser geant MCCLOUD. We
w a s t a l k i n g and he ment i oned somet hi ng l i k e t h a t . Af t e r a
whi l e it j u s t g o t common t hr oughout t h e company.
w
I - '
Q Ser geant MCCLOUD s a i d t hey got ki cked out ?
P1
A. W e l l , he s a i d he had hear d it. W e l l , I ' d hear d i t N
be f or e he t o l d me . I hear d s e v e r a l d i f f e r e n t t i m e s t hr oughout IP
t h e company t h a t t he y got ki cked out . I s a i d "Yeah, I he a r d
it t oo. " I d i d n ' t he a r no l i e u t e n a n t t e l l me o r not hi ng l i k e
t h a t . I t was when we would g e t t oge t he r and s t ar t t a l k i n g
about t h e f i r e bas e o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t . The c a p t a i n nev-
er mentioned anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q Were you e v e r t o l d n o t t o di s c us s t h e p o s s i b l e un-
neces s ar y k i l l i n g of c i v i l i a n s by Task Force Bar ker ?
(Wi t ness shakes head i n t h e ne ga t i ve . )
Do you know, a s i d e from what you s a i d you he a r d
about t h e t el ephone, do you know of any U.S. o r ARVN t o r t u r i n g
VC s us pe c t s o r PW's on t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. On t h i s same ope r a t i on I know what I s a i d - - i t l ooked
l i k e t h e c i t y p o l i c e . They c a r r i e d some of them o u t behi nd a
hoot ch and s h o t hol e s i n t h e i r hands.
Q How do you know?
A. I s e e n t h e i r hands. You coul d see them c a r r y them
APP T-349
behind t he hootch and you coul d hear t h e gunshot s--pi st ol s.
Q How many?
A. I don' t know i f it was two o r t hr e e o r just t h a t
one. I know t hey c a r r i e d one behind t her e. I seen him when
t hey c a r r i e d him behind t her e, and I seen him when t hey come
back out . He wa s hol di ng h i s hand and blood w a s coming from
it. I heard some s hot s .
Q Did you hear of anybody c ut t i ng f i nger s o f f ?
A. I heard of t h a t , but I never seen it.
Q Where was t ha t ?
A.
I heard t h a t happened--some of t h a t happened on
t h i s same oper at i on.
Q. What dat e?
A. I don' t know what dat e it was, but I heard it wa s
i n t hat - - r i ght , up down from where we l aagered. It would have
been r i g h t up from it. That ' s where I seen t h a t one guy come
from behind t he hootch a t .
Q Your t al ki ng about t h e l a s t day, r i ght ?
A. Right.
Q How about t he f i r s t day of t he oper at i on, di d you--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) I d i d n ' t even know t hey had an M I team out
t her e o r anybody else.
Q Thi s was done by t he ARVN, you s ai d?
A. Right. What t hey c a l l e d t he ci t y- - t hat ' s what I
cal l ed t he c i t y pol i ce. They was dressed i n whi t e ha t s .
Q. Nat i onal Pol i ce? Not ARVN s ol di e r s , but Nat i onal
Pol i ce?
A.
Right.
They had maybe one o r two ARVN's wi t h them
and t hey were dr es s ed i n uni form. The ot he r s had whi t e s h i r t s
and l i t t l e o l d s t r i p e s on them. I seen them t a ke them behind--
we l l , it was t h e f i r s t hoot ch t hey come t o i n t he v i l l a g e .
They t ook one behi nd t h e r e and you coul d hear a coupl e of s hot s .
They br ought him back. I t hought t hey k i l l e d him. They br ought
him back.
Q
What happened t o him a f t e r t hey br ought him back?
A. I d o n ' t know.
Q Did you s e e any more done l i k e t h a t ?
A. No. J u s t on t h a t one occasi on t h a t I seen t h a t .
Q Anything e l s e ?
A. I hear d them t a ki ng t he kni f e and c u t t i n g t h e i r
f i nge r s of f . I never seen t h a t . I d i d n ' t s ee anybody t h a t
had been done t h a t way. I hear d t h a t t hey were good a t that!.
When t hey t a l ke d t o somebody t hey normal l y s a i d somet hi ng. .
I h3
Who w a s doi ng t h i s c ut t i ng? Was it an American?
P
Q
w
A. No. I t w a s t h a t same bunch t h a t doi ng a l l t h e i n- P3
t e r r oga t i ng. The Nat i onal Pol i c e and them ARVN' s were doi ng 43
t ha t . From what I under st and, t h a t happened t o one guy t h a t
was i n t h a t v i l l a g e on t h a t same oper at i on. It w a s down from
t h a t beach where t h a t happened.
LTC NOLL: Was t h i s on t h e morning of t h e 19t h o r eveni ng of
t h e 18t h?
A. I don' t know which one it was. W e were coming i n
t hrough t he vi l l a ge . We was coming up t o go on way down t he r e .
That happened bef or e MILUS got k i l l e d . W e w e r e coming i n t o
t he r e and t hos e peopl e were o u t t he r e i n t h a t f i r s t v i l l a g e .
They had one o r two t he r e .
Q That wa s t h e day bef or e MILUS was k i l l e d ? That
would be t h e morning of t h e 18t h?
A. Ri ght . The next morning t he r e was some of t hos e
same peopl e t he r e , b u t I d i d n ' t s e e anybody o r hear not hi ng.
I don' t know what t hey done.
68
APP T-349
Q Is t h i s t h e same day t h a t man had t o go and wash
h i s b r i t c h e s o r was t h a t t he next morning?
A. The same day he had t o wash them was t h e same ni ght
MILUS got k i l l e d . That happened bef or e dar k. About noon o r
somewhere, I ' d s ay it was j u s t bef or e we got on i n t h e r e and
come back was when I seen t he s e Nat i onal Pol i c e and t h e r e ARVN' s
over t h e r e i n t h e v i l l a g e .
Q Do you know i f mar i j uana w a s a bi g problem i n t he
company?
A. No, b u t I know pot was. W e l l , t h a t ' s t h e same
t hi ng. I wa s n' t t hi nki ng t he r e .
Q Was it a problem?
A. There was a few of t h e peopl e would go down t o t h e
local--when t hey coul d and buy some of it.
Q Did t hey t a ke it o u t on oper at i ons ?
A. No. That was most l y conduct ed around t h e f i r e bas es .
COL WILSON: Do you have any f u r t h e r t est i mony, any f u r t h e r
s t at ement s t h a t might assi st us i n t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on?
A. I d o n ' t know. I f you have some more--I don' t know
i f I coul d he l p you anymore o r not .
Q u Not hi ng you can t hi nk o f ?
A. Not based on t h a t p a r t i c u l a r ope r a t i on, no.
COL WILSON: I r e que s t t h a t you not di s c us s your t est i mony i n
t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on wi t h ot he r s , i ncl udi ng o t h e r wi t nes s es t o
t h e i nve s t i ga t i on except a s you may be r e qui r e d t o do s o be-
f o r e a compet ent j u d i c i a l o r l e g i s l a t i v e body.
A. Y e s , si r.
COL WILSON: The hear i ng w i l l r e c e s s .
(The hear i ng r eces s ed a t 1 2 0 5 hour s , 9 February 1970.
WITNESS: MORENO, Ar t ur o M.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 6 February 1970
PLACE OF TESTIMONY: Pentagon
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Ri fl eman, Second Squad,
Second Pl at oon, B/4/3.
The wi t nes s had been i ns t r uc t e d i n t h e ge ne r a l
t r eat ment of pr i s one r s whi l e i n b a s i c t r a i n i n g (pg. 2 ) .
They were t o l d t o put t h e c i v i l i a n s i n t o two gr oups, male
and f emal e, whi l e t hey sear ched t he v i l l a g e (pg. 2 ) . H e
di d not r e c a l l any c l a s s di s cus s i ng t h e l e g a l i t y ver s us
t he i l l e g a l i t y of or der s (pg. 3) . Upon h i s a r r i v a l i n
Vietnam he went t hrough a f i v e day t r a i n i n g per i od a t
Chu Lai (pg. 3 ) . H e di d not r e c a l l any t r a i n i n g on t h e
handl i ng of PW's t he r e (pg. 3 ) .
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t normal l y t h e i r squad l e a de r
would i n s t r u c t them on an oper at i on (pg. 4 ) . H e t hought
t h a t h i s squad l eader was pr obabl y Ser geant LOVE (pg. 5 ) .
H e di d not r e c a l l any i nf or mat i on bei ng gi ven out concer ni ng
t he de s t r uc t i on of v i l l a g e s , f oods t ocks , o r l i ve s t oc k ( pg. 5) .
He t hought t hey were t o l d t o expect many ~ i e t Cong, b u t
he di d not know t he name of t h e u n i t (pg. 6 ) . H e s t a t e d
t h a t itwas t o be a s ear ch and des t r oy oper at i on (pg. 29).
He s a i d t h a t i n May o r June of 1968 t he t e r m w a s changed
f ran s ear ch and des t r oy t o s ear ch and c l e a r (pg. 29).
(MORENO) 1 SUM APP T-334
3. COMBAT ASSAULT.
a. Ac t i v i t i e s on 16.March.
The wi t nes s t hought he was on t he f i r s t l i f t
(pg. 7 ) . H e di d not r e c a l l t he doorgunners f i r i n g when
t hey went i n ( pg. 7) . He s t a t e d t h a t he di d not s e e anyone
f i r i n g a s t hey g o t of f t h e he l i c opt e r (pg. 7 ) . The company
commander t o l d them t o move t owards a cemetery (pg. 7 ) .
The second squad began t he movement (pg. 7 ) . dhey moved
on l i n e (pg. 8 ) . They were goi ng t hrough on a t r a i l
when Li eut enant COCHRAN c a l l e d them back t o check something
(pg. 8) . A s t hey went back, t hey moved t o t h e l e f t and
COCHRAN proceeded up t he t r a i l where he h i t a mine (pg. 8 ) .
Af t er COCHRAN was evacuat ed, t hey began t o move agai n,
t h i s t i me wi t h a mine de t e c t or (pg. 11). They found a mine
which t hey w e r e jumping over (pg. 11). GUNTA di d not jump
" f a r enough" and h i t t he mine ( pg. 11). He d i d not r e c a l l
what t ype of he l i c opt e r took COGHRAN away (pg. 12). Af t er
t he second group was evacuat ed t hey d i d not move (pg. 12) .
Ser geant LOVE t ook over t h e pl at oon and went and m e t wi t h
MICHLES i n a v i l l a g e ( pg. 1 2 ) . The u n i t s t ayed around
t h a t v i l l a g e most of t he day (pg. 1 2 ) .
( 2) Ac t i v i t i e s i n t he l aager a r e a .
The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l s eei ng any
i n t e r p r e t e r s o r i nt e r r oga t or s t h a t day (pg. 1 4 ) . He di d
r e c a l l C Company coming i n t o l aager near them (pg. 1 4 ) .
He di d not t a l k wi t h any members of t he u n i t t h a t ni ght
(pg. 1 4 ) . He t hought t h a t MENDOZA and TRAVERSA s h o t a
Vi et Cong out s i de t he per i met er t h a t ni ght (pg. 1 5 ) .
He was not s u r e t h a t t h i s was t h e same day, however, and
s t a t e d t h a t t h e Vi e t Cong was out l i ne d i n f r o n t of a f i r e
s t a r t e d by t he r ocket s of a s p o t t e r pl ane (pg. 1 5 ) .
(1) Movement t owards t he br i dge.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d cr os s i ng a br i dge which
had been marked for; mines (pg. 1 6 ) . He di d not r e c a l l any
f i r e p r i o r t o t h e i r cr os s i ng (pg. 16). He saw TAYLOR' S weapon
a s t hey cr os s ed t he br i dge (pg. 1 7 ) . He r e c a l l e d t h e
a r r i v a l of Li eut enant LEWIS b u t di d not see h i s he l i c opt e r
come i n (pg. 1 7 ) . He a l s o r e c a l l e d pas s i ng t hr ough a s m a l l
des er t ed v i l l a g e (pg. 1 8 ) . He di d not s e e any bodi es or
new gr aves i n t h e v i l l a g e (pg. 1 8 ) . He a l s o r e c a l l e d t he
pr esence of a phot ographer who went wi t h t h e pl at oon
(pg. 1 9 ) . He d i d not r e c a l l any s p e c i a l i n s i g n i a o r
i d e n t i f i c a t i o n on t h e phot ographer (pg. 20). H e r e c a l l e d
moving t o t he s out h, b u t di d not r e c a l l i f anyone was
k i l l e d (pg. 22) . He r e c a l l e d bur ni ng one v i l l a g e but d i d
not remember i f itwas cn t h i s oper at i on ( pgs. 22, 23).
( 2) Ac t i vi t y i n t h e ni ght l aager pos i t i on.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d di ggi ng i n a t one poi nt
t o a gr aveyar d which smel l ed bad (pg. 18).
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18 and 1 9 March.
The wi t nes s di d not r e c a l l hear i ng about a
ri ce cache bei ng found (pg. 25) . H e di d not i n d i c a t e
any knowledge of t he pr esence of peopl e on t he beach dur i ng
t he day (pg. 25) . He di d r e c a l l an i nc i de nt where a number
of i nt e r r oga t or s came i n and quest i oned peopl e on t h e
beach by us i ng w i r e s (pg. 25) . He not i ced t h a t one ~ i e t n a me s e
had t o go wash h i s pant s i n t ne wat er (pg. 26). H e
t hought t h i s happened t he day bef or e MILUS was k i l l e d
(pg. 26) . He s t a t e d t h a t itwas ~ i e t n a me s e i nt e r r oga t or s
who put t h e wi r es on t he pr i s one r and t he r e was one
American wi t h them ( pgs. 26, 27). Thi s was t he onl y
i nt e r r oga t i on t h a t he saw (pg. 28).
4 . INQUIRIES CONCERNING THE ASSAULT.
The wi t nes s was not quest i oned on t he oper at i on whi l e
i n Vietnam (pg. 29) . He di d not hear any rumors about
c i v i l i a n s bei ng k i l l e d unneces s ar i l y on t he oper at i on
(pg. 30). H e was not t o l d not t o di s c us s t he oper at i on
(pg. 30).
5. OTHER INFORMaTION.
The wi t nes s d i d not t hi nk mar i j uana was a problem
i n t he company b u t s t a t e d t h a t "some of t h e boys d i d smoke
i t " (pg. 31) . H e did not know i f t hey used iton oper at i ons
(pg. 31).
EXHI BI TS
EXHI BI T
"
NUMBER DESCRIPTION NOTES
' W i t knew t h e man
P-18
b u t coul d n o t name.
W i t had s een the
peopl e pr e vi ous l y.
W i t r ecogni zed a s
P- 21
Mi scel l aneous Scene i n t e r r o g a t o r s .
W i t d i d not r e c a l l
-
t h e t e r r a i n .
-
W i t s t a t e d t h a t it
P-207
resembl ed a gr ave-
ya r d, and n o t t h e
pl a c e where
COCHRAN was k l l l e d .
W i t t hought t h a t
P-208
he r e c a l l e d one of
t h e prisoners
shown.
W i t i d e n t l t l e d a s
-P- 212 Mi scel l aneous Scene
a l a r g e v i l l a g e
a t t h e end or t n e
peni ns ul a.
W i t i d e n t i f i e d him
P-215
Mi scel l aneous Scene a s a pr i s one r who
had escaped.
PAGES
12
13
13
8
8
1 3
2 4
28
(MORENO)
4
SUM APP T-334
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 0905 hour s , 6 February
1970.)
LTC NOLL: The hear i ng w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng per sons a r e pr e s e nt , LTC NOLL and
MAJ THOMAS.
The f i r s t wi t nes s i s Mr . Ar t ur o M. MORENO.
(MR MORENO wa s c a l l e d , sworn, and t e s t i f i e d as
f ol l ows :)
Pl e a s e st at eyour f u l l name, occupat i on, and
r esi dence?
A. Ar t ur o M. MORENO, 4503 Buena Vi s t a S t r e e t , San
Ant oni o, Texas. I work f o r Sear s Roebuck Company.
L T ~NOLL: Did you have a chance t o read t h e i nf or mat i on
s he e t ( Exhi bi t M-81) you w e r e pr ovi ded?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. I shoul d e xpl a i n now t h a t t h e r e are t h r e e peopl e
on t h i s team. The team i s headed by Col onel WILSON who w i l l
be he r e l a t e r t h i s morning. Also on ' t he t e a m i s Mr . WALSH,
a c i v i l i a n a t t or ne y who has vol unt eer ed t o assist t h e
Secr et ar y of t h e Army i n t h e i nve s t i ga t i on, and mysel f.
What w e w i l l do i s t ake t h e f i r s t sequence of ques t i ons and
t hen w e w i l l recess u n t i l Col onel WILSON and M r . WALSH g e t
her e. The f i r s t s e r i e s of ques t i ons i s r e l a t e d t o t r a i n i n g .
What wa s your dut y assi gnment on 16 March?
A. To t h e b e s t of my knowledge, si r , w e went on an
oper at i on.
Q. W e l l , t h e t hi ng t h a t I am l ooki ng f o r i syour
TOE pos i t i on i n t h e company.
A. My assi gnment ?
Q. Y e s .
A. I wa s a r i f l eman, ammo be a r e r a t t h a t t i m e .
1 APP T-334
Q. What pl a t oon and squad?
A. 2d Pl a t oon, second squad.
Q - When d i d you j o i n B Company?
A. I j oi ne d it on, I d o n ' t recal l t h e d a t e .
Q - Febr uar y o f 1968?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q You j oi ne d t h e company i n count r y?
A. I g o t i n c ount r y t h e 17 of J anuar y, b u t t o t h e
company--I went t o t h e u n i t i n Febr uar y.
Q . I see. Where d i d you t a k e your b a s i c t r a i n i n g ?
A. For t Pol k, Loui s i ana.
Q P r i o r t o goi ng t o Vi et nam, w e r e you gi ven any
t r a i n i n g on t h e ha ndl i ng of PW' s , p r i s o n e r s of war?
A. W e l l , ye s , s i r , w e d i d j u s t a l i t t l e . They t o l d
us t h i s i n b a s i c t r a i n i n g .
Q Ge ne r a l l y, what d i d t he y t e l l you?
A. The t r e a t me nt , how t o t r e a t them, n o t t o h a r a s s
them t o o much and a l l t h a t . Not t o mi s t r e a t them and t h e
pr ope r way o f s e a r c hi ng them and a l l t h a t .
Q Did t he y d i s c u s s t h e p r o b a b i l i t y of c i v i l i a n s i n
an a r e a of o p e r a t i o n , noncombat ant s and d i d you r e c e i v e any
i n s t r u c t i o n s on t h e ha ndl i ng o f noncombat ant s?
A. Y e s , si r . What I r e c a l l i s t h a t t he y t o l d us t o
t a k e a l l t h e c i v i l i a n s o u t of t h e v i l l a g e and p u t them i n
s e p a r a t e gr oups, t h e women t o one s i d e and t h e men t o t h e
o t h e r s i d e .
Q. Was t h i s i n t h e S t a t e s now b e f o r e you went t o
Vietnam?
A. Y e s , i n t h e S t a t e s .
(MORENO) 2
APP T-334
Q * Now, dur i ng your t r a i n i n g i n t h e S t a t e s , d i d you
e ve r have a c l a s s t h a t mi ght have been pr es ent ed by a l e g a l
o f f i c e r t h a t mi ght have been a p a r t of t h e Geneva Convent i on
class, and t h a t di s cus s ed an i s s u e of l e g a l or de r s and il-
l e ga l or der s ?
A. I don' t recal l , sir.
Q. When you a r r i ve d i n count r y, d i d you go t hrough
an o r i e n t a t i o n week?
A. W e went t hr ough, I t hi nk, it w a s a fi ve-day
t r a i n i n g t h e r e a t Chu Lai a t t h e Ame r i c a 1 Di vi si on.
Q Any t r a i n i n g on t h e handl i ng of PW's t he r e ?
A. I don ' t recal l , sir.
Q- Okay, f i n e .
A. I know w e had cameras and--
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) S t i l l not hi ng on t h e l e g a l i t y of
or der s ?
A. I don' t r e c a l l t h a t , sir.
Q. Now you r e a l i z e t h a t we a r e i n t e r e s t e d i n a
p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on. The company went on t h e oper at i on
agai n on t h e 16t h of March. I ' m s u r e you w e r e t he r e . You
probabl y remember Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Were you on t h a t oper at i on?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. When Col onel WILSON comes i n , one of t h e f i r s t
s e r i e s of que s t i ons , t h e next series of ques t i ons w i l l be
r e l a t e d t o t h e b r i e f i n g you r ecei ved p r i o r t o goi ng on t h i s
oper at i on. What he w i l l ask you, ever yt hi ng you w e r e t o l d
dur i ng t h i s br i e f i ng.
W e w i l l recess now. You can spend some t i m e and
consi der what you w e r e t ol d.
APP T-334
(The hear i ng r ecessed at 0910 hours .)
(The hear i ng reconvened at 09 35 hour s. )
COL WILSON: Hearing come t o or der .
RCDR : The f ol l owi ng per sons a r e pr es ent , COL WILSON,
LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
COL WILSON: Mr . MORENO, t h e next series of ques t i ons we
a r e concerned wi t h t h e b r i e f i n g o r i nf or mat i on which you
r ecei ved a t f i r e base Upt i ght bef or e t h e oper at i on which
would probabl y have been on t h e 15t h of March. Have you a
good i de a of t h e t i m e per i od we a r e t a l ki ng about ?
A. Y e s , si r, I know t h e t i m e we l l , but I don' t
r e c a l l what w e w e r e t o l d bef or e w e went out .
Q W e l l , I want t o be s ur e t h a t you know t h e opera-
t i on. Do you know t h e oper at i on on t h e 16t h of March?
A. I ' m p r e t t y s ur e I know which one we are t a l ki ng
about .
Q. Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d t h a t day?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Now back a t t h e f i r e base, on t he 15th, somebody
shoul d have put out some word t h a t t he r e was goi ng t o be an
oper at i on t h e next day. Did your squad have a meeting or
anyt hi ng?
A. W e l l , w e always di d bef or e we went out , but I
don' t r e c a l l t h e words t hey t o l d us.
Q . Who was your squad l eader ?
A. I t hi nk i t was Ser geant REID. I don' t remember
t he ot he r s er geant .
Q e Which squad w e r e you i n ?
A. Second squad. It w a s REID o r LITTLE.
Q. How about SCHMIDT?
APP T-334
A. SCHMIDT?
Q * That ' s not c or r e c t ?
A. No. Ser geant LOVE was wi t h us t oo. I t hi nk he
was walking about two o r t hr e e men ahead of us.
Q Who?
A. Ser geant LOVE. SCHMIDT was j u s t a spec f our a t
t h a t t i m e . H e was a team l eader . SCHMIDT was a team l eader .
The squad l e a de r I ' m s ur e it was e i t h e r King LITTLE, LOVE
o r REID. They w e r e t h e t hr e e Ser geant s w e had. I t hi nk it
was Ser geant LOVE. Af t er COCHRAN h i t a mine and GUNTA h i t
anot her mine about 15 yar ds away.
Q. That ' s t h e next day. I want t o s t i c k t o what
you w e r e t o l d bef or e you went i n t he r e , r i g h t now. We ' re
not s ur e about squad l e a de r s , but you don' t remember t h e
squad l eader ge t t i ng t oget her and sayi ng where you we r e
going and how many days you w e r e going t o be out t h e r e and
t h i s ki nd of t hi ng.
A. I know t hey t o l d us, but I don' t remember t h e
words, si r .
Q Do you know where you w e r e going?
A. Y e s , si r. I ' m p r e t t y s ur e . I know t hey t o l d us
because everyt i me j u s t bef or e we went out t hey t o l d us how
many days w e w e r e going t o be out , where we w e r e goi ng, what
t o expect and a l l t h a t .
Q. Any i nf or mat i on gi ven concerni ng t he bur ni ng
of hoot ches and des t r uct i on of vi l l a ge s ?
A. I don' t r e c a l l , sir.
Q Anything s a i d on t h e de s t r uc t i on of foodst ock?
Foodstock?
Li vest ock.
NO, sir.
5
APP T-334
Q. Anything s t a t e d concer ni ng t h e di s pos i t i on of
t h e peopl e who l i v e d i n t h a t ar ea?
A. No, si r. When w e got t he r e , I know we went t o
t hi s ' vi l l a ge . W e t ook a l l t he peopl e i n t o one s i d e , b u t w e
d i d n ' t g e t any or de r s f o r de s t r uc t i on of l i ve s t oc k o r any-
t h i n g l i k e t h a t .
Q. Do you remember what t h e enemy s i t u a t i o n w a s
supposed t o be down t he r e ?
A. The enemy s i t u a t i o n ? I know t hey t o l d us t h e r e
were a l o t of V i e t Cong i n t h e r e because I t hi nk t hey k i l l e d
a few t he r e .
Q. Do you know what u n i t w a s supposed t o be i n t he r e ?
A. Task Force Barker.
Q.
i
I mean t h e enemy uni t ?
A. No, si r, I don' t .
Q. Do you know what t h e pl at oons of B Company were
supposed t o do, 1st 2d, and 3d Pl at oons?
A. W e were on a bl ocki ng f or ce.
Q The company?
A. No. I t hi nk j u s t t h e 2d Pl at oon o r , l e t ' s see.
I don' t remember e xa c t l y t h a t day what w e di d. I know w e
got o f f t h e choppers.
Q. W e l l , w a i t a mi nut e. What about t h e squads, w e r e
t h e r e any s t at ment s made a s t o what t h e squads of t h e pl at oon
w e r e supposed t o do? F i r s t , second, and t h i r d squads o r
f i r s t and second squad, whi chever your or gani zat i on may have
been?
A. I know t h e CO t o l d us t o go t o t hi s - - I t hi nk we
w e r e goi ng t o look f o r t h e V i e t Cong. H e t o l d us t o go t o ,
I t hi nk it w a s t h e cemet ery.
Q. The what?
6
APP T-334
A. To go through a cemetery, I guess it wa s a cemetery,
because t he r e w e r e a l o t of mounds.
Q. Was t h i s t he day bef or e t he oper at i on?
A. No.
Q- But you wer en' t t o l d anyt hi ng about what each squad
was going t o do t he day bef or e t h e oper at i on?
A. They t o l d us, but I don' t remember, sir.
Q. Okay.
Le t ' s get t o t he oper at i on i t s e l f . Was
t he r e any f i r e as you came i n t o t.he l andi ng zone?
A. No, si r.
Q Do you remember which l i f t you were on? There
were two l i f t s t h a t day.
A. I t hi nk it was t he f i r s t one.
Q. Were t he doorgunners f i r i n g when you came i n ?
A. I don' t remember, sir.
Q. Did anybody ge t of f t h e a i r c r a f t t h a t you saw
t h a t w e r e f i r i n g ?
A. No, si r. Nobody f i r e d. Not t h a t I heard it. I
d i d n ' t s e e any.
Q. When you got on t he l andi ng zone, you went i n t o a
peri met er, t hen you s t a r t e d moving out toward t h e nor t h. What
was t h i s t he company commander t o l d you?
A. What, s i r ?
Q. You mentioned something e a r l i e r about t h e CO
t e l l i n g you t o move . through a graveyard o r something?
A. It w a s something l i k e a graveyard. I t hought
it wa s a graveyard, I don' t know. He t o l d us t o move. My
squad s t a r t e d moving f i r s t , t he second squad. Then j us t a s
soon a s we hi t --wel l , it wasn' t t oo f a r from where w e made
t he l andi ng when we s t a r t e d h i t t i n g t he mines t her e.
7 APP T-334.
Q. What' s t h e gr aveyar d got t o do wi t h i t ?
A. Not hi ng.
Q. You remembered it t hough.
A. But it had l i k e h i l l s , mounds of d i r t , s o I
t hought it w a s a graveyard. I ' m not s ur e i f it w a s a grave-
yar d o r not .
Q. Thi s i s phot o Exhi bi t P-206 and P-207. Does
e i t h e r of t hos e t e r r a i n s seem f a mi l i a r t o you--taken from
t h e a i r .
A. No, si r. I don' t r e c a l l them.
Q Not hi ng f a mi l i a r t he r e ?
A. That l ooks l i k e a gr aveyar d over her e.
Q. Which one a r e you l ooki ng a t , P-207?
A. P-207. But I don' t t hi nk it w a s t h e pl a c e where
COCHRAN was k i l l e d .
Q . No, I di dn ' t say it was. I j u s t wondered i f t h e
a r e a l ooked f a mi l i a r . Accordi ng t o t h e l og, ( Exhi bi t M-16)
Li eut enant COCHRAN t r i ppe d a mine, a booby t r a p a t 0845.
Your touchdown, i f you were on t h e f i r s t l i f t , w a s a t 0815.
The second l i f t came i n a t 0827. So w e a r e t a l k i n g about a
per i od of about 0830 t o 0845, which i s t h e t i m e he t r i ppe d
t h a t mine, dur i ng a per i od of about 15 mi nut es, from t h e
t i m e he t h e l a s t a i r c r a f t s e t down u n t i l he h i t t h e mine.
So, appar ent l y you di dn ' t s t a y on t h e l andi ng zone t oo l ong.
You s ay you t hi nk t h e second squad l e a d of f i n t h e pl at oon,
i s t h a t c or r e c t ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Was t h e pl at oon i n a squad column o r w e r e a l l t h e
squads a br e a s t ?
A. W e were goi ng on l i n e . I t was a machinegun crew
and Ser geant LITTLE. Then, Li eut enant COCHRAN c a l l e d us back.
W e were goi ng t hrough t h e t r ai l and he c a l l e d us back so he
s a i d t o check somet hi ng. We t ur ned around and s t a r t e d wal ki ng
8
APP T-334
t h i s way and t hen COCHRAN and h i s RTO w e r e coming behind on
t h i s s i de. He h i t t he mine r i g h t t he r e , j us t where we were
going. The f i r s t squad w a s goi ng t h e ot her way because
t he r e were al r eady some guys over i n t he f r ont , CANTU and
SMITH. I t hi nk t hey were wounded by t h e same booby t r a ps .
Q- Well, I ' m not s ur e I fol l ow t h i s . You l e f t t h e
l andi ng zone and you s a i d t h e machinegun element w a s i n
f r ont ?
A. Sergeant LITTLE was i n f r ont .
Q . Of what, t he pl at oon o r t he squad?
A. W e l l , itwasn' t--there were j u s t f our guys--no,
f i ve guys--four guys, he t o l d us t o go check something out .
9 . Were you wi t h t he squad?
A. With t he machinegun crew i n t he second squad.
Q. And you l e f t t h e squad?
A. No. See, f our guys weEe walking through t h e
t r a i l . I t hi nk Sergeant LITTLE was i n f r ont when Li eut enant
COCHRAN c a l l e d him back and t o l d him t o t ake t he machinegun,
t o go check--I don' t know what itwas t o go check.
Q- W e l l , what was Sergeant LITTLE' S job?
A. I don' t remember i f he was a squad l eader o r
team l eader , but he was a ser geant . A t t h a t t i me, I don' t
remember i f he was team l eader . I know a f t e r t h a t he became
a squad l eader .
Q. You were up i n f r ont of Li eut enant COCHRAN, i s
t h a t cor r ect ?
A. Yes, si r, we were i n f r ont .
Q. And COCHRAN w a s fol l owi ng you?
A. Following us. Then he t o l d Sergeant LITTLE t o
t ake t he machinegun crew and go check.
He s a i d t o go check
something out over t her e.
#
9
APP T-334
Q Which di r e c t i on di d you go? I f you were moving
towards f i r e base Upt i ght you were moving due nor t h. I f
you went of f t o t h e r i g h t o r l e f t I could t e l l you which
di r e c t i on you went.
A, W e l l , from where he h i t t he mine, we moved l e f t .
We j us t s t a r t e d moving l e f t .
Q You moved t o t he w e s t t hen?
A. And he h i t t he mine. We were going through
t h a t t r a i l so he went t o t h e t r a i l we were going a t f i r s t .
He h i t t he mine t her e. But I was wai t i ng f o r t he machine-
gun crew t o pass because I was supposed t o walk behind t h e
machinegunner and a s s i s t a nt . I was t he ammo bear er . I was
wai t i ng f o r them and Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t t he mine r i g h t
t her e.
Q . How f a r from you di d he h i t t h a t mine?
A. I guess he was between 7 and 1 0 yar ds , something
l i k e t ha t .
Q Well, now we get a des cr i pt i on t h a t t h i s vi l l a ge ,
t he bi g vi l l a ge t he r e , cal l ed Pi nkvi l l e, My Lai (1), had s o r t
of a hedgerow around it. I t was near t h i s hedgerow t h a t he
h i t t h a t mine.
A. No. There was a t r a i l . There must have been, I
guess a t r e e o r two. I t went on a l i t t l e s l ope l i k e t h a t .
Q Now you remember when you crossed t h a t t r a i l , was
t he r e a bi g gat e over t he t r a i l w i t h some Vietnamese wr i t i ng
on t h e . t o p of it, s o r t of j ust --I don' t know how t o des cr i be
it except t o descr i be it as a gat e.
A. No, si r, I don' t remember.
Q. Were you moving down a t r a i l o r cr os s i ng a t r a i l ?
(MORENO)
No, moving down t h e t r a i l .
You were moving down t he t r a i l ?
Yes, si r.
1 0
Q- Af t e r Li eut enant COCHRAN was h i t , 0845, t h e next
mine t h a t was t r i gge r e d was a t 0930, t h i s accor di ng t o t h e
l og, 45 mi nut es l a t e r .
A. Yes, si r . Af t e r we evacuat ed t h e men, t hey
t o l d us , Capt ai n MICHLES o r what ever h i s name w a s , t o l d
us t o keep on. So we got up and t h i s t i m e w e had a mine
de t e c t or . The mine de t e c t or det ect ed a mine s o w e were
jumping over t h e mine. W e would t a ke a bi g hop and jump
over it. GUNTA, he came and di dn ' t jump f a r enough and he
h i t t h e mine.
Q So you a l l knew t h a t mine w a s t he r e ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Now back t o COCHRAN. Was Capt ai n MICHLES up
t her e?
A. No, he wasn ' t wi t h us.
H e was n' t wi t h you?
NO, si r.
You s ay he t o l d you?
H e r adi oed.
Q You hear d t h e r a di o communication?
A. No, si r. But they--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Passed it down. Did you h e l p
l oad any of t he s e c a s u a l t i e s on t h e evacuat i on he l i c opt e r ?
A. No, si r , I just--we moved COCHRAN, me and t h e
medic and somebody e l s e , w e j u s t p u t him l i k e t h a t t o see
i f he was st i l l a l i v e . I d i d n ' t he l p them.
Q. You remember t h e he l i c opt e r coming i n t he r e ?
The medevac?
Y e s .
11
APP T-334
A. Y e s , I t hi nk I do.
Q Do you know whet her it wa s a medevac o r whet her
it w a s Col onel BARKER'S a i r c r a f t ?
A. I ' m not s u r e on t h a t , sir. I know a chopper
came and took--I t hi nk t hr e e guys. COCHRAN, CANTU and SMITH.
Q Then what happened a f t e r t h e second group got
h i t ? Did you see t h a t chopper come i n?
A. No, sir. I d i d n ' t see t h a t one because w e s t ayed
down. I t hi nk we s t ayed down over t h e r e u n t i l t hey t ook
everybody. Then, you know, everybody t hought t h a t t h e whole
pl a c e was f u l l of mines s o we j u s t s t ayed where we were. I
don ' t remember s eei ng t h e chopper.
Q. What happened a f t e r t hey t ook t hos e c a s u a l t i e s
out ? Where d i d you go t hen?
A. Ser geant LOVE, I t hi nk, t hen t ook over t h e
pl at oon.
Q. Yes.
A. He r adi oed Capt ai n MICHLES. I t hi nk he t o l d us
t o g e t o u t of t he r e . We went and met him i n a vi l l a ge . H e
wa s al r eady i n a v i l l a g e some pl ace i n t he r e . H e was n' t
r e a l f a r , b u t t h e r e was a vi l l a ge . I t hi nk where t h e f l a g
i s , somet hi ng l i k e t h a t , some pl a c e i n t he r e . There wa s a
smal l v i l l a g e t he r e . W e went over t he r e . I t hi nk w e b u i l t
a per i met er i n t he r e o r something. W e a t e t he r e .
Q You s t ayed around t h a t v i l l a g e most of t h e day,
I suppose?
A. I know w e s t ayed t he r e . I don' t know how l ong,
b u t I ' m p r e t t y s u r e t h a t we a t e t he r e . W e a t e di nner .
Q Show us t h e phot ographs, Exhi bi t P-18. Have you
e ve r seen any of t hos e peopl e i n t h e phot ograph, and do you
know where it i s ?
A. I know t h i s guy.
Q. You don' t know h i s name?
(MORENO) 12
A. I have f or got t en it, but I know him.
Q- P-19. Did you ever s ee any of t hose peopl e,
Vietnamese?
(Witness nodded i n th.e af f i r mat i ve. )
P-21. Did you ever s e e any of t hose two men i n
uniform?
A. They were i nt er r ogat or s o r something l i k e t ha t .
Q The man on t h e r i g h t i s an i n t e r p r e t e r , r i ght ?
A. I guess t h a t ' s what--
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) I nt e r pr e t e r o r i nt er r ogat or . P-22?
A. No.
Q Did you ever s ee e i t h e r one of t hes e two Vietnamese
i n uniform, P-66?
A. I c a n' t r e c a l l t he f ace t oo wel l .
Q. Did you ever s ee t hes e pr i soner s? Thi s i s P-208?
A. Yes. I t hi nk I remember t h a t one.
Q. Where was t h a t ?
A. I remember t he pr i s oner , but I don' t know where
it was.
9- Why do you remember t h e pr i soner ?
A. Because I remember t hey caught a Tot of s us pect s .
I don' t know i f t hey w e r e V i e t Cong o r not . I remember t hey
caught them. I t hi nk t hey took them t o Duc Pho o r some pl ace.
Q. When?
A. I don' t r e c a l l , sir. I know a l o t of t i mes we
caught a l o t of pr i s oner s and put a sand bag on t op of t h e i r
head.
(MORENO) 13 APP T-334
Q. You don ' t r ecogni ze t h a t ar ea?
A. The ground s e e ms f a mi l i a r .
Q. Can you see P-209 w e l l enough t o i d e n t i f y any-
t hi ng i n t he r e ?
A. No, si r .
Q. You s t ayed i n t he area a l l t h a t day. Did you see
any i n t e r p r e t e r s o r i nt e r r oga t or s i n t h e r e t h a t day?
A. I don' t remember, sir. I know a l o t of t i m e s w e
br ought i n t h e i n t e r p r e t e r and sometime t hey br ought i n an
i nt e r r oga t or .
Q
Do you remember C Company coming i n t h a t ni ght ,
l i nki ng up wi t h you a l l , and s t a yi ng t he r e ?
A. They s t ayed near us one t i m e . I t hi nk it w a s t h e
same oper at i on.
Q. That i s r i g h t , t h a t wa s t h e ni ght . Do you
remember any ARVN coming i n wi t h them?
A. No, si r. I know C/1/20 s t ayed wi t h us o r near
us one t i me.
Q- Did you t a l k t o any of them t h a t ni ght ?
A. No, si r , I d i d n ' t .
Q. Did you see any i nt e r r oga t i ons o r ques t i oni ng
goi ng on t h a t ni ght o r l a t e t h a t af t er noon, VC s us pe c t s , PW's?
A. W e had one, b u t I don' t know i f he wa s on t h a t day.
I t was when t hey br ought i n , I t hi nk, Li eut enant LEWIS, t h a t
r epl aced COCHRAN .
Q That w a s t he next day?
A. The ne xt day? W e l l , I know t h a t day t hey br ought
some i n t o i nt e r r oga t e .
Q. You don' t remember s eei ng any on t h e 16t h, t h e
f i r s t day?
1 4
APP T-334
A. No, sir.
Q- You saw them when Li eut enant LEWIS came i n?
A, Yes.
Q- Do you r e c a l l anyt hi ng about t h a t ni ght when you
went i n t o your l aager ar ea, defensi ve pos i t i ons ?
A. Y e s , sir. W e were cr os s i ng t he r i ve r . W e w e r e
walking through a r i c e paddy. We had a l o t of f i r e from
one s i de ; t hen I t hi nk from anot her s i de. I t hi nk w e cr ossed
t he r i ve r . W e got some more f i r e .
Q That ' s t he next day, I ' m t a l ki ng about t h a t
ni ght where you l aagered. C Company came i n t her e. I
wonder i f you remember any smal l arms f i r e i ns i de t h e peri met er
o r i s t he r e anyt hi ng about t h a t night--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) I t hi nk t h a t ni ght MENDOZA k i l l e d
a Vi et Cong.
Q. MENDOZA? Where di d he k i l l him?
A. There wa s a s pot t e r pl ane f i r i n g r ocket s. There
was a f i r e t her e. Then t h i s Vi et Cong came i n f r ont of
t he f i r e . We had a peri met er r e a l cl os e t o t her e. MENDOZA
saw him. I t hi nk MENDOZA and TRAVERSA s hot h i m. He was a
V i e t Cong because he had some handgrenades.
Q. He wasn ' t report ed?
A. I t hi nk it was.
The next morning we had t o go
over t he r e and drag him.
Q. Was t h i s t he same day? Was t h i s t he same day
Li eut enant COCHRAN was ki l l e d?
A. I don ' t know i f it was t he same day. I know it
was on t he same oper at i on. I don' t know i f it was t h e next
day. I don' t even remember where we s l e p t t h a t ni ght .
Q- W e l l , l e t ' s go t o t he next day.
LTC NOLL: Before Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s k i l l e d , what was
t he obj ect i ve of your pl at oon? You came of f t he hel i copt er s .
You s t a r t e d moving i n a di r ect i on. What were you moving
towards ?
A. We were going through what I t hi nk was a cemetery.
Q. A l l r i ght .
A. I guess our obj ect i ve was t o--I d i d n ' t know
not hi ng. They di dn' t t e l l me. Whenever t hey t o l d me t o
move I moved. They t o l d us t o go through t h a t t r a i l , I
guess, and look f o r t he Vi et Cong. I never di d pay t oo
much a t t e nt i on. When t hey t o l d me ' t o go some pl ace, I
j u s t went.
Q. Were you near a vi l l a ge when Li eut enant COCHRAN
was ki l l e d?
A. There was a vi l l a ge because a f t e r t hey t o l d us
t o move out of t he r e , we went t o t h a t vi l l a ge . Captazn
MICHLES was t he r e wi t h us. I ' m not s ur e i f t he r e was . anot her
pl at oon t he r e , e i t h e r t he 1st o r t he 3d. I t hi nk t he r e was
a vi l l a ge not t oo f a r away from t her e.
COL WILSON: The next day you moved out towards t he br i dge.
Sergeant TAYLOR got h i s f oot blown of f . The 1st Pl at oon
had been acr oss t he bri dge a l l ni ght . I don' t know whether
t he 2d Pl at oon moved of f f i r s t t h a t morning o r whether t h e
3d Platoon di d. We bel i eve t he 3d Pl at oon di d. There were
some mines down t he r e by t he br i dge, marked of f wi t h t i s s u e
paper.
A. Oh, yeah, yes, sir, I remember.
Q Do you r e c a l l i f t he r e was any f i r i n g when you
got t o t h a t ar ea where t hose mines marked of f by t he bri dge?
A. Crossing t he br i dge?
Q. Yes.
A. NO, sir.
Q. Do you r e c a l l f i r i n g bef or e t ha t ?
A. No, si r.
16
APP T-334
You don' t ?
A. I know we crossed t h e bri dge. I don' t know i f it
was a Sergeant o r not , but he got h i s l egs blown of f . H i s
weapon was blown a l l t o pi eces.
Q e
Was he s t i l l t he r e when you crossed t h e bri dge?
A. No, but t he weapon was.
Q Was it a l l t or n up?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q- That was Sergeant TAYLOR. You got acr oss t h e
bri dge and s a w h i s weapon had been a l l beat up from t h e
bl a s t ?
A. I f it i s t he same one I am t a l ki ng about , t h e
weapon was blown up.
Q. I ' m s ur e we have had t h i s i nformat i on before t h a t
t ha t weapon was pr e t t y badly beat en up. What happened cross-
i ng t he bri dge? Was t he r e any f i r i n g o r di d you j u s t cr os s
t he bri dge a s you would any ot her bri dge?
A. Ye s . The onl y t hi ng I remember is t h a t whi l e
we w e r e cr os s i ng t hey t o l d us not t o s t e p on paper--
t o i l e t t i ssue--because t he r e were mines under t her e. I
don' t remember where w e went a f t e r t h a t o r what we di d.
But t h i s i s t he same day we had a photographer wi t h us.
Q. W e l l , t h i s could be. That ' s coming up. I t hi nk
it i s. You got acr oss t he, br i dge. What di d you do across--
t h i s was when--about t h i s t i me, is when Li eut enant LEWIS
came i n. Do you remember him coming i n ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. So I understand h i s hel i copt er may have s e t down
i n a s m a l l vi l l a ge over t her e. Did you s e e h i s he l i c opt e r
come i n?
A. No, sir.
APP T-334
Q - Did you do any moving around over t he r e a f t e r you
crossed t h e br i dge o r di d you a l l j us t s i t down and wai t ?
A. When he came?
Q. No, r i g h t bef or e he came.
A. I know when he came we were i n a peri met er al r eady.
Q You were?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q Did you get t o move through a smal l vi l l a ge over
t her e? Did you ge t t o move around very much? Did you do any
searchi ng?
A. I t hi nk it was a deser t ed vi l l a ge .
Q. Did you s ee any bodi es over t her e?
A. No.
Q. Did you s e e any new graves?
A. No.
Q . When Li eut enant LEWIS came i n , who came i n wi t h him?
A. I don' t remember. I j us t saw h i m. They t o l d us he
was going t o be our new l i e ut e na nt , our new pl at oon l eader .
Q - You were al ready i n t he peri met er. Where were you?
Were you up on t op of t h a t sand dune?
A. Sergeant LITTLE and I , I t hi nk were i n a hol e. We
dug a hol e. I t hi nk t he r e was a graveyard t he r e because we
dug a hol e and it s t a r t e d s t i nki ng r e a l bad. W e dug t oo deep
and it s t a r t e d s t i nki ng r e a l bad.
Q. I want you t o be s ur e of t ha t . Where was t h i s , up
on t op of t he h i l l o r was t h i s down i n t he val l ey?
A. I t was cl os e t o t he beach t her e.
18
APP T- 334
Q. I t was?
A. That was when I t hi nk MILUS got k i l l e d by a mort ar
round.
Q. No.
A. Then I ' m not . . . .
Q. MILUS was k i l l e d t he ni ght of t h e 18t h.
A. Then I ' m a day ahead, sir.
Q. But you do remember ~ i e u t e n a n tLEWIS coming i n?
A. Y e s , si r, I do.
Q. And you s a i d t he r e wa s a photographer?
A. On one of t hos e days, t h e r e was a photographer.
Q Did he go wi t h your pl at oon?
A. H e was wi t h us.
Q How l ong di d he s t a y wi t h you?
A. I don' t remember. I know he took some pi c t ur e s ,
but I don' t remember when he l e f t .
Q. What di d he t ake pi c t ur e s o f ?
A. One t i m e he took a pi c t ur e o f , I guess t h e
machinegunner. QUI NTWI LLA was a machinegunner a t t h a t t i m e .
Q. What was t h i s f el l ow' s name? Do you know, t h e
photographer?
A. I don' t know.
Q. What ki nd of uniform di d he have on?
A.
I t hi nk he was wearing f a t i gue s .
Q. Fat i gues. What ki nd of ha t ?
APP T-334
A. I d o n ' t remember, but I t hi nk it w a s a--
B
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) Bas ebal l cap? What ki nd of
camera di d he have?
I d o n ' t know, sir.
How d i d you know he w a s a phot ographer?
Because he w a s t aki ng pi c t ur e s .
Q
W e l l , a l o t of peopl e come out and t ake pi c t ur e s .
A. Over t he r e ?
Q Sur e, peopl e always have cameras around. You
can g e t a v i s i t o r anyt i me t o t ake pi c t ur e s .
A. He was n' t i n our uni t .
Q. H e was n' t i n B Company. Did he s t a y p r e t t y
c l os e t o Li eut enant LEWIS?
A. I don' t know--one t i me he was wal ki ng. When he PJ
c:'
took t he p i c t u r e of t he machinegunner, he was wal ki ng c l os e IP
t o us , t o t he machinegunner.
Q = Did he have any s p e c i a l i ns i gni a o r name t a g on?
A. I don ' t know.
Q- S t a r s and St r i pe s ?
A. I d i d n ' t know it.
Q- MACV pat ch?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l , sir.
Q - Did anybody say anyt hi ng about him not goi ng t o
be i n count r y b u t a coupl e o r 3 more days?
A. No, si r. I d i d n ' t hear t he rumor.
Q Did anybody say anyt hi ng about where he came from?
(MORENO ) 20
APP T-334
A. No, si r .
Q Come from Sai gon, Chu Lai ?
A. A t l east I d i d n ' t g e t t o he a r it.
Q You don' t remember anyt hi ng else about i t ?
A. NO, si r.
Q- You mentioned t h a t t h e r e w e r e VC k i l l e d .
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. When wa s t h a t ? Was t h i s t he day t h a t he was k i l l e d ?
A. NO, si r.
Q. You got t h i s wi t h anot her oper at i on?
A. I know it was dur i ng t h a t oper at i on, b u t I don' t
know i f it wa s t h e 18t h.
Q. W e l l , t h e 2d Pl at oon o r t h e company r epor t ed t h a t
t he 2d Pl at oon engaged two VC and k i l l e d one. That w a s down
whi l e you w e r e moving sout h on t h e beach, b u t it wa s a f t e r you
l e f t t h a t area where you cr os s ed t h e br i dge and s t a r t e d moving
s out h down t h e peni nsul a. You a l l moved s out h t h a t day. It
was a p r e t t y l ong march.
A. Oh, yes , I remember.
Q. You went a l l t h e way down and about h a l f way down
t he r e , it w a s r epor t ed t h a t two VC w e r e engaged and one wa s
k i l l e d .
A. That wa s t h e f i r s t squad, I t hi nk.
Q. I d o n ' t know who it wa s . W e be l i e ve it w a s t h e
2d Pl at oon. Is t h a t t he one you a r e t a l k i n g about ?
A. No. I must have been--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Do you remember t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
i nci dent ?
APP T-334
FAOFFICIAL USE ONLY
A. I t hi nk I do.
Q- Li eut enant LEWIS g e t t i n g exci t ed.
A. I don' t remember i f t hey k i l l e d anybody. We
walked, I don' t know how f a r , b u t it wa s r e a l f a r t hrough
t h e sand.
Q. Walked t hrough t h e sand on a hot day?
A. Y e s . And t h e r e w e r e some s hot s f i r e d .
Q. But you d i d n ' t see i t ?
A. No, si r, I d i d n ' t . Then a f t e r t h a t we came
t hrough a v i l l a g e . Nobody wa s t h e r e b u t somebody, I guess
had j u s t f i ni s he d us i ng it. There was s t i l l some, f i r e
burni ng. L
Q
Peopl e who had been l i v i n g t he r e , had i e f t ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Did you a l l burn t h e vi l l a ge ?
A. I don ' t recall.
Q. Okay. You moved s out h and went a l l t h e way
down. I j u s t wondered i f you recall bur ni ng any v i l l a g e s
on t h e way down t he r e ?
A. A l o t of t i m e s on a s ear ch and des t r oy, b u t I
don' t remember i f it was on--
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) Thi s wa s r i g h t al ong t h e beach,
now you shoul d remember t h i s because it shoul d have been
s ceni c.
A. I ' m not s ur e , b u t we coul d have burned it. I
don ? remember.
Q. Do you remember l ooki ng over and s e e i ng any
v i l l a g e s bur ni ng?
A. I know we burned one, but I don' t remember which
oper at i on t h a t wa s . It wa s a l ong t i me ago. I d o n ' t t hi nk
it wa s a t My L a i .
Q
Do you remember some ARVN bei ng wi t h you t h a t day?
I t hi nk you s a i d some i n t e r p r e t e r s came i n wi t h Li eut enant
LEWIS.
A. That wa s near t h e coas t ?
Q- Y e s , on t h e coas t .
A. The i nt e r r oga t or s came;
Q. They di d?
A. I know, I t hi nk t h a t man wa s t he i nt e r r oga t or .
I don' t know how many young guys we had.
Q W e l l , t h a t wa s pr obabl y a f t e r you got up t h e r e
i n t h a t v i l l a g e .
A. No, it was n' t i n a vi l l a ge .
Q. It was n' t i n t h e v i l l a g e on t h e beach?
A. Tha t ' s when MILUS got k i l l e d .
Q. But you don' t remember any except f o r t h e i n t e r -
p r e t e r o r i nt e r r oga t or ? You don' t remember any ARVN bei ng
wi t h you?
A. What do you mean, Vietnamese?
Q- Vietnamese Army per sonnel i n uniform.
A. There w a s a Vietnamese.
Q. J u s t one?
A. I do ' t remember i f t h e r e were one o r two.
P
Q. id you s e e any Nat i onal Pol i ce?
A. Nat i onal Pol i c e , no.
APP T-334
Q. Do you remember--this i s P-212--do you remember
t h i s ar ea? Where i s t h a t ? Tha t ' s down a t t h e end of t h e
peni ns ul a, i s n ' t i t ?
A. That ' s when w e walked t h e l ong march.
Q A l l t h e way down, r i g h t a t t h e end.
A. Y e s . I t hi nk t h i s i s a b i g vi l l a ge .
Q. Is t h a t acr os s t h e wat er ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. How l ong di d you a l l s t a y down her e?
A. W e j u s t checked them, and I t hi nk w e came back.
Q. Were t h e peopl e a l l gone from t h i s vi l l a ge ?
A. I t hi nk t h e r e w e r e a few f i s hi ng o r somet hi ng.
Q Was t h i s i n t he 2d Pl at oon area o r wa s it i n t h e
1st Pl at oon ar ea? W a s t h e whole company t oge t he r a t t h i s
t i me?
A. Only t h e 2d Pl at oon.
Q Can you t e l l who t h i s i s on t h e l e f t ?
A. No.
Q Did you a l l burn t h i s vi l l a ge ?
A. I ' m not s ur e , sir.
Q. Okay. You a l l t ur ned around and went back up
and l aager ed t h a t ni . ght . Do you remember a he l i c opt e r coming
i n wi t h Col onel BARKER o r Major CALHOUN whi l e you w e r e down
a t t h i s poi nt , down a t t h e end?
A. NO, si r.
Q. You t ur ned around, came back about ha l f way up.
You l aager ed t h a t ni ght , a l l except 3d Pl at oon which i s up
24
APP T-334
t he r e a t t he br i dge. Do you remember anyt hi ng unusual happen-
i ng t hat ni ght ?
A. That ni ght ?
Q Y e s .
A. Wel l , I guess it w a s t h e same n i g h t when MILUS
got k i l l e d .
Q - No, the n i g h t bef or e. You don' t remember anyt hi ng
unusual t h a t ni ght . Th e next day you got up and went nor t h
and passed t h a t br i dge agai n, where you came over , pi cked up
t he 3d Pl at oon. They had found about 3,000 pounds of r i c e
up t he r e t h a t morning? I don" know whet her you knew about
t h i s o r not . You went on up t o a b i g v i l l a g e up t h e r e and
rounded up a whole bunch of peopl e. A medi cal team wa s br ought
i n t he r e . I suppose t h e r e w e r e some i n t e r p r e t e r s br ought i n
t oo. I wonder i f you recal l what happened t h a t day? Thi s i s
t h e day MILUS got k i l l e d . There w a s a l o t of s ear chi ng goi ng
on, but I d o n v t know what t h e 2d Pl at oon w a s doi ng?
A. I di dn' t hear about t h a t , not ri ce.
Q Tha t ' s not i mpor t ant . What I w a s t r y i n g t o do
w a s f i nd out what happened a f t e r you got up t h e r e i n t h a t
vi l l a ge o r a f t e r you got up t h e r e where a l l t he s e peopl e
were rounded up. There w e r e about a t housand peopl e up
t he r e t h a t were br ought down t o t h e beach. The medi cal
team brought--.took them over . There coul d have been some
i nt e r r oga t i ons goi ng on.
A. I f i t ' s t h e same day t h a t t h i s Vietnamese came
and some ot he r G I w i t h him, I guess he was an i nt e r r oga t or .
They had a l o t o f , you know, young guys. Not a l o t of them,
I don' t know how many t he r e w e r e . They s t a r t e d t o i nt e r r o-
ga t e them, you know.
Q Y e s .
A. And I guess t hey had a b a t t e r y of some t ype.
Q. Hooked up t h e wi r es?
A. Yes.
APP T-334
Q Was t h i s done on t h e beach o r was it done a t t h e
CP?
A. I know it was cl os e t o t he beach because one
Vietnamese had t o go wash h i s pant s o r something.
Q From t h a t wi re o r from ge t t i ng ki cked around?
A. I guess it wa s from t h e w i r e .
Q
/ I
How di d t he w i r e do t h a t ? Did you s e e him ge t t i ng
beat up?
A. To t el l t he t r u t h , I saw them g e t beat up by t h e
Vietnamese i nt er r ogat or . I saw them, but I don' t remember
a t t h a t time.
Q
Do you know wh.etker this guy washed h i s pants--
do you know whether t h i s wa s t he day bef or e MI LUS was k i l l e d
or t he morning a f t e r ?
A. I t hi nk t h a t was t he morning--it w a s t h e day
beor e.
Q. The day before MI LUS wa s k i l l e d ?
A. Because when we went and picked up a l l t hos e
peopl e, I t hi nk t hey went back. Nobody st ayed i n t he vi l l a ge
t h a t day. I t hi nk we recei ved a mortar round on t he same
day. But I ' m pr e t t y s ur e it w a s t he day before MI LUS got
k i l l e d .
Q Well, now t he r e must have been a number of
people bei ng i nt er r ogat ed down t her e. Did you s ee t he
i nt e r pr e t e r s abusing t he pr i s oner s ? Did you s e e them beat i ng
the pr i s oner s on t hi s day?
A. I don' t r e c a l l . I know t hey put t h e wi res on
them.
Q Who put th.e wi re on them? Was it t h e Vietnamese?
A. The Vietnamese.
Q Were any Americans wi t h them?
APP T-334
A. I ' m pr e t t y s ur e th. ere was one.
Q
Was it the one you s a w t h e pi c t ur e of e a r l i e r ?
A. It looked l i k e him. I ' m not s ur e. He looks l i k e
t he one.
Q That woul d be photo P-22. Which one?
A. He l ooks l i k e t h i s guy.
Q The one i n t he c e n t e r f a c i n g t h e camera. Do you
remember i n photo P-21? Do you remember t h e Vietnamese on
t he r i ght ? You don, . t remember h.im?
A. He' s wearing gl as s es .
Q. Y e s .
A. No.
Q. YOU don' t remember him?
A. No.
Q. And the wi res were t h e only t hi ng you saw?
A. Ye s , sir and th.e bat t er y.
Q. That ' s t h e onl y t hi ng?
A.
You s e e , we were on a per i met er , we coul dn' t go
away.
Q . Thi s was th.e day hef or e, r i ght ?
A.
~ ' m p r e t t y s ur e it wa s t h e day bef or e MILUS got
ki l l e d. I t hi nk MILUS got k i l l e d r i g h t e a r l y i n t h e morning
ox a t ni ght ox something l i k e t h a t o r whether it w a s t h e day
before.
Q. Did you ever s ee t h i s man, P-215?
A.
T h i s one was the one t h a t escaped from C/1/20?
Q. Char l i e Company?
APP T-334
FOR OFFICIAL USE,ONLY
A. Y e s . Because when I f i r s t got t o my u n i t , t hey
had a pr i s one r , but I t hi nk he escaped.
Q When you f i r s t got t o what uni t ?
A. To my u n i t , Bravo Company.
Q Thi s phot ograph w a s t aken on t h e day t h a t MILUS
was k i l l e d .
A. Then, I d o n Et remember. It l ooks l i k e t h e one
when I f i r s t got t o my uni t . They had a pr i s one r t h a t l ooked
l i k e him.
Q W e l l , t h a t n i g h t , you got some mor t ar f i r e . MILUS
got k i l l e d . You had c a s ua l t i e s . They were evacuat ed. The
next day di d you s ee any i nt e r r oga t i ons goi ng on?
A. Not a f t e r t h a t one I s a w t h a t day.
Q Tha t ' s a l l you saw?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. The next day you l e f t about noon. Anything happen
bef or e t h a t ?
A. I d0nl . t remember where we went t o .
Q Do you have any knowledge of any i nve s t i ga t i ons
o r i nqui r i e s bei ng made on t h i s oper at i on, a f t e r t h i s
oper at i on, whi l e you were s t i l l i n Vietnam?
A. No, sir.
Q
Did you ever remember r ecei vi ng an or de r t o s t op
bur ni ng?
A. The onl y t hi ng I hear d t h a t I remenber, t h a t t hey
t o l d us t o j u s t s ear ch and c l e a r o r somet hi ng. I t used t o be
s ear ch and des t r oy. Then t hey changed it t o s ear ch and c l e a r .
Q. That was dur i ng t h e oper at i on? I t w a s some t i m e
r i g h t a f t e r t h e oper at i on, I guess.
Q You mean a f t e r you got back t o t h e f i r e base?
A. No, no. I guess it was around May o r June o r
August .
Q. Thi s i s a long t i m e a f t e r t h a t ?
A. Ye s .
Q - A couple o r t hr e e months?
A. Oh, yes, t hey changed t h e term. The term from
sear ch and dest r oy t o s ear ch and c l e a r .
Q Do you remember when you were t o l d about t h i s
operat i on? It wa s supposed t o be sear ch and c l e a r o r
search and dest r oy?
A. I ' m pr e t t y s ur e it was a search and dest r oy
mission.
Q. Okay. Do you r e c a l l duri ng t h i s oper at i on a t
any time an or der bei ng passed down t o s t op burning?
A. No, sir, I don' t r e c a l l .
LTC NOLL: What does sear ch and dest r oy mean t o you?
A. Well, t o me , my personal opi ni on i s t h a t l i k e
i f t hey have, wel l , l i k e what we di d, wel l not always. To
go sear ch and i f t he r e i s anyt hi ng t h a t might be an a i d t o
the Vi et Cong, dest r oy it. A l o t of t i mes we found pa r t s
of a mortar round o r something l i k e t h a t , dest royed them
or a l o t of r i c e o r something l i k e t h a t , a i d t o t h e Vi et
Cong. We found medical suppl y, not only on t h e oper at i on,
but some ot her oper at i ons.
COL WILSON: Were you o r anyone you knew ever quest i oned on
t h i s oper at i on bef or e you l e f t Vietnam?
A. I d i d n t t hear it u n t i l I came home out of t h e
s er vi ce. Unt i l I ETStd.
9. Did you have a camera?
A. Yes, I di d, but I d i d n ' t t a ke any pi c t ur e s .
APP T-334
a. You d i d n ' t take any pi c t ur e s ?
A.
t h a t .
Not of k i l l i n g s o r anybody dead o r anyt hi ng l i k e
No, but d i d you t a ke any pi c t ur e s on t h i s oper -
A. No, sir.
Q Do you know anybody t h a t di d?
A.
I know someone had a camera, but I d o n ' t remember
who it wa s . One of t hos e i ns t amat i cs . I c a r r i e d a pol ar oi d.
I d i d n ' t have a chance t o t a ke p i c t u r e s , not i n My L a i .
Q. Did you ever hear rumors t h a t c i v i l i a n s had been
k i l l e d unneces s ar i l y e i t h e r by C/ 1/ 2O o r B/4/3 dur i ng t h i s
oper at i on?
A. Not dur i ng t h i s oper at i on.
Q. That t hey had been k i l l e d dur i ng t h e oper at i on?
A. I j u s t hear d it. I r ead it i n t h e paper .
Q But I'm t a l k i n g about whi l e you were i n Vietnam?
A. NO, si r.
Q Were you e ve r t o l d not t o di s cus s t h i s oper at i on?
A. NO, si r.
Q. DO you, as i de from t h e e l e c t r i c a l hookup which
you r e f e r r e d t o , do you know o r di d you s e e any U.S. o r ARVN
t o r t u r i n g VC s us pect s o r PW's on t h i s oper at i on?
A. ~ o r t u r i n g ,no, sir. J u s t t h e wi r es i s a l l I s a w.
I didn't s e e any t o r t u r i n g .
Q. Tha t ' s a l l ?
A. Y e s , sir.
APP T-334
Q.
Do you know i f marijuana was a problem i n t he
company?
A. Well, I don' t t hi nk s o , but w e l l , some of the
boys di d smoke it.
Q On t h e oper at i ons?
A. I don" know about oper at i ons, but you know. I
Q Have you got any f ur t he r testimony o r anyt hi ng
t h a t might assist us i n t h. i s i nves t i gat i on?
A. W e l l , I j us t wanted t o say t h a t i n my personal
opi ni on, I wouldn' t consi der t h i s a massacre. Because my
personal opi ni on was that a r t i l l e r y must have k i l l e d some
people. I n My Lai , I don' t t hi nk t he r e i s e i t h e r one o r two
persons who ar e l oyal t o t he U. S. o r t r y t o hel p t he U.S.
They a l l di d t he Vi et Cong I ' m pr e t t y s ur e. That ' s my per-
sonal opi ni on about My Lai and Pi nkvi l l e.
Q. Anything e l s e ?
A. No.
LTC NOLL: Did you hear anyt hi ng about t he 1st Pl at oon' s
operat i on on t h e f i r s t day of t h i s operat i on? Remember t h e
1st Pl at oon went acr oss and landed. You a l l went up her e
and got i n t o problems wi t h t he mines. The 1st lat to oh went
across. They r epor t ed consi derabl e body count i n My Khe ( 4 ) ,
t he vi l l a ge r i ght across from t he br i dge t h a t you crossed
t he next morning. Did you hear anyt hi ng about t h e i r opera-
t i on?
A. No, sir. The 1st Pl at oon?
Q- Li eut enant WI LLI NGKAM' s Pl at oon. TAYLOR w a s i n
t he pl at oon.
A. NO, sir.
Q. Did you t a l k t o any members of t h e 1st Pl at oon
while you were i n t he f i e l d , about t h e i r oper at i on t h e f i r s t
day?
31
A. I don' t remember who was i n t h e 1st Pl at oon.
Was Spe c i a l i s t NOLTON (phonet i c) i n t h e 1st Pl at oon?
I t al ked t o him t h a t day, but I don' t know i f he was i n
t he 1st Pl at oon o r t he 3d Platoon.
Q. What day? You woul dn' t have seen him t h e f i r s t
day?
A. It was e i t h e r t he f i r s t o r second day. I don' t
know what pl at oon he was i n , but I think--wasn' t it wa s t he
f i r s t day when t h e CP was wi t h one pl at oon.
Q You t al ked t o MI LUS on t h i s operat i on?
A. To MILUS?
Q- Yes, bef or e he was ki l l e d?
A. No, si r.
Q. What about LITTLE, d i d you t a l k t o him?
A. No.
Q. REID?
A. Sergeant REID?
Q. Terry REI D, was he a Sergeant ? Terrence REID?
A. I know we had a Sergeant , but I don' t remember
t h a t oper at i on.
COL WILSON: M r . MORENO, I r equest you not t o di s cus s your
testimony i n t h i s i nves t i gat i on wi t h ot he r s , i ncl udi ng ot her
wi t nesses f or the i nves t i gat i on except as you may be r equi r ed
t o do before a competent, j udi c i a l o r l e g i s l a t i v e body.
(The heari ng recessed a t 1040 hours, 6 February
1970. )
APP T-334
WITNESS: SHIFLEY, Johnny J.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 4 February 1 970
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 1 6 MARCH 1968: Rifleman, F i r s t Squad,
Second Pl at oon, B/4/3.
1. PRIOR TRAI NI NG I N THE RULES OF LAND WARFARE.
SHIFLEY had a class i n ba s i c t r a i n i n g a t For t
Leonard Wood concerning t h e l e g a l i t y ver s us t h e i l l e g a l i t y
of or der s (pg. 4 ) . H e knew t h a t he di d not have t o obey
an i l l e g a l or der (pg. 4 ) . H e was i s s ued t he MACV car ds
"Wine Rules" and "The Enemy i n Your Hands" i n t he Ame r i c a 1
Combat Cent er i n Vietnam (pgs. 4 , 5 ) .
H e di d not remember bei ng br i e f e d f o r t h e 16 March
oper at i on (pg. 6 ) . H e di d not r ecal l any or der s t o
des t r oy v i l l a g e s or burn houses (pg. 6 ) . H e coul d br i ng
t o mind no or der t o des t r oy animals or f oodst ocks (pg. 7).
On s ear ch and dest r oy mi ssi ons t hey us ual l y gat her ed t h e
i nha bi t a nt s t oge t he r , segr egat ed t he men and women and
checked t he men f o r I D car ds (pg. 7 ) . They r ecei ved no
s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons r egar di ng t h e i nha bi t a nt s f o r t h i s
oper at i on (pg. 7 ) . The company consi der ed t h e Pi nkvi l l e
area t he wor st of t hos e i n which t hey worked (pg. 7 ) .
3. THE COMBAT ASSAULT.
a. Act i ons on t he 16t h.
SHIFLEY di d not recal l r ecei vi ng f i r e e i t h e r as
(SHIFLEY)
SUM APP T-322
t hey approached t h e l andi ng zone or a l i ght e d from t he
he l i c opt e r (pg. 9 ) . However, h i s doorgunner spr ayed t h e
a r e a (pg. 1 2 ) . He assumed t h e r e was some f i r e i n t h e
f i r s t pl a t oon' s a r e a ( pgs. 9 , 10 . He admi t t ed t h a t
t he f i r e coul d have come from C Company which was i n t he
same d i r e c t i o n as t h e f i r s t pl at oon ( pg. 10). A s t hey
s t a r t e d nor t h Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t a mine on the s i d e
of a knol l ( pgs. 10, 11). SHIFLEY t hought COCHRAN was
evacuat ed by a s l i c k , b u t he di d not know i f itw a s
~ i e u t e n a n t Col onel BARKER'S he l i c opt e r (pg. 1 3 ) . Ser geant
WOOD became t he pl at oon l eader (pgs. 13, 1 4 ) . The pl at oon
formed i n s i n g l e f i l e and moved behi nd t he poi nt team which
had a mine de t e c t or (pg. 1 3 ) . The poi nt team di scover ed a
mine and passed back word about it, b u t two of t h e men d i d
not r e c e i ve t h e i nf or mat i on and t r i gge r e d t h e mine ( pg. 13) .
The wi t nes s was i n f r o n t of t h e man who h i t i t , and he
r ecei ved a pi e c e of s hr apnel i n t he l e g from it (pgs. 13,
15) . He was dust ed-off wi t h t h e two ot he r s who had been
wounded (pg. 15) . He t hought t h a t itwas BARKER' S
he l i c opt e r which took him back and t h a t BARKER was aboard
(pg.1 ). The wi t nes s d i d not r e t u r n t o t h e company
f o r two and one-hal f weeks (pg. 19 .
4. INQUIRIESAFTER THE ASSAULT.
SHIFLEY had no knowledge of an i nve s t i ga t i on o r i nqui r y
bei ng conduct ed a f t e r t h e oper at i on (pg. 20). He was never
quest i oned about it, and he knew of no one who was (pg. 2 1 ) .
He di d not hear any rumors about c i v i l i a n s bei ng k i l l e d
by anyone from B/4/3 or C/ 1/ 20 ( pgs. 2 1 , 23) . He was never
t o l d not t o di s c us s t h i s oper at i on (pg. 23) .
a . The f i r s t pl at oon us ual l y di d a l o t of shoot i ng
on an oper at i on (pg. 21) . He r e c a l l e d an i nc i de nt where
t he f i r s t pl at oon used pr i s one r s a s poi nt men t omove
acr os s a di ke and t he pr i s one r s det onat ed a mine which
k i l l e d them (pg. 2 2 ) ,
b. While mar i j uana was used, itw a s not smoked on
oper at i ons (pg. 2 4 ) . SHIFLEY di d not t hi nk itwas used
ext ens i vel y (pg. 24).
c. He knew not hi ng about t he t o r t u r e O r mi st r eat ment
of Vietnamese by B/4/3 (pg. 2 4 ) .
(SHIFLEY) 2 SUM APP T-322
EXI-IIBITS
EXI I I BI T
NUMBER
-
-
P-168
R-4
DESCRIPTION
Rul es"
Y O I I ~Hands It
R / A / m
Ae r i a l phot o of a r e a
-
B/ 4 / 3 Morninq Report s
NOTES
-I
'wit was i s s ue d car d
i n ~ i e t n a m.
W i t was i s s ued car d
i n Vietnam.
W i t r e f e r r e d t o
r o s t e r .
W i t or i e nt e d on
phot o.
W i t l i s t e d as
wounded i n a c t i on.
PAGES
4,5
5
17
12
17
-
3
SUM APP T-322
(The hear i ng was reconvened a t 1108 hours,
4 February 1970.)
COL WILSON: Hearing w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR: The fol l owi ng named persons a r e pr esent : COL WILSON,
The next wi t ness i sM r . Johnny J. SHIFLEY.
(MR SHIFLEY, was c a l l e d as a wi t ness, was
sworn, and t e s t i f i e d as fol l ows: 1
Pl ease s t a t e your f u l l name, occupat i on, and
r esi dence .
A. Johnny J. SHIFLEY, 30 18 Calhoune St r e e t , Gary,
Indi ana, and I am a meat department manager i n a grocery
s t or e .
COL WILSON: Did you have an opport uni t y t o read t he i n-
formation passed out t o you (Exhi bi t M-81) ?
A. NO, si r.
Q. L e t me br i ef you as t o t he nat ur e and purpose
f o r this i nqui r y.
This i nves t i gat i on was di r e c t e d j oi nt l y by t he
Secr et ar y of t he Army and t he Chief of St a f f of t he Ar my,
f o r the purpose of determining c e r t a i n f a c t s and making
recommendations and f i ndi ngs concerning t he My Lai ( 4 ) i nci dent
of 16 March 1968. In conducting h i s i nves t i gat i on, General
PEERS decided itwa s necessary t o have an underst andi ng of
B Company 4/ 3 duri ng 16-19 March.
He appoi nt ed i nt er vi ew team C which i s t h i s team
t o i nt e r r oga t e people from B Company t o bui l d a pi c t ur e of
what took pl ace t h a t day.
Your testimony w i l l be t aken under oat h. A
verbat i m t r a n s c r i p t w i l l be prepared. A t ape recordi ng i s
bei ng made i n addi t i on t o t he verbat i m not es t aken by
t he r epor t er .
Although t h e gener al c l a s s i f i c a t i o n of t he r e por t
w i l l be conf i dent i al , i t ' s qui t e pos s i bl e t h a t t he testimony
may become a mat t er of publ i c i n t e r e s t a t a l a t e r dat e.
(SHIFLEY ) 1 APP T-322
The i nt er vi ew w i l l be based on a chr onol ogi cal se-
quence--we' l l ask you ques t i ons on t r a i n i n g and t hen some ques-
t i o n s on t he b r i e f i n g t h a t you r ecei ved p r i o r t o t he oper at i on.
Then ques t i ons on t h e 4 days of t he oper at i on and f i n i s h
wi t h some ques t i ons on anyt hi ng t h a t you may know about an i n-
ve s t i ga t i on o r an i nqui r y.
Q What wa s your assi gnment on 16 March 1968?
A. I was a r i f l eman.
Q. Which pl at oon?
A. 2d Pl at oon.
Q- Which squad?
A. F i r s t squad.
A. Ri ght .
Q Who wa s your squad l e a de r ?
A. Give me a mi nut e, because t h e r e w a s s o many of
them t he r e , you know what I mean, t hey were goi ng s o f a s t
I coul dn' t keep up w i t h them.
Q. Thi s is the oper at i on t h a t Li et uenant COCHRAN w a s
k i l l e d on.
A. Ri ght .
Q- So, w e ' r e t a l k i n g about t h a t oper at i on and t he
squad l e a de r t h a t day. That would be Ser geant WOOD. Who
w a s t h e pl at oon s e r ge a nt t h a t day? He would have t aken over
the pl at oon a f t e r COCHRAN was k i l l e d ?
A. Yeah, w e l l Ser geant LOVE t ook over t h e pl at oon,
b u t a t t h e t i m e I hones t l y c oul dn' t say who it was- - I don' t
t hi nk t here--you know what I mean--because t h e r e wasn' t a
pl at oon s e r ge a nt of r ank. I t hi nk it wa s Ser geant LOVE.
Q. W a s Ser geant LOVE a s p e c i a l i s t o r was he an NCO?
A. He was an E-5. Some of them w e r e doi ng two j obs.
(SHTFLEY1 2 APP T-322
Q - How many squads di d you have i n t h e pl at oon t h a t
day, you know, was it two o r t hr ee?
A. There was f our . The way we worked it, you had f i r s t
and second squad. There were two squads i n a pl at oon and t he r e
was an A team and B team of each squad and weapons pl at oon was
not c l a s s i f i e d as a weapons squad.
Q So, you had f our f i r e teams, one squad l ead by Ser-
geant WOOD and t he ot her squad by who?
A. Ri ght , t he weapon--it was r e a l l y not c l a s s i f i e d as
a weapons squad. I t was j u s t one gun wi t h t he fi rst squad
and one gun w i t h t he second squad.
Q So, you had two squads, one squad l ead by Sergeant
WOOD and one squad l ead by who?
A. Sergeant REI D, I t hi nk.
Q- who?
A. Sergeant REI D.
Q REID?
A. Y e s , it was e i t h e r Sergeant REI D or--and I know
t hese guys f a c e s , but I c a n ' t t hi nk of t h e i r names.
Q- There i s a r o s t e r ( Exhi bi t M-24) --it' s al phabet i cal --
if you want t o look a t the--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) . Yeah, I ' 11 check it over. A s f a r
a s I can remember it was Sergeant REID.
COL WILSON: Let me s e e t he car ds?
(The RCDR di d a s request ed. )
Q. Did you ever have a c l a s s of i ns t r uc t i on t h a t you
can r e c a l l which would have probably been mi l i t a r y j us t i c e o r
Geneva Convention which r e f e r r e d t o t he l e g a l i t y of or der s ,
l e ga l and i l l e g a l or der , anyt hi ng you ever r e c a l l e d on t h a t ?
(SHIFLEY) 3 APP T-322
A. Basi c t r a i ni ng.
Q- What di d t hey say?
A. The l egal i t y- - wel l , t hey s a i d , t he way I i n-
t e r p r e t it, t h e way I have always f e l t when I was i n t he
Army--legality of order--if your commander o r your auth-
o r i t y gi ves you a command t h a t was j u s t i f i a b l e , I mean,
you know, you a r e t o do it,but i f you t hought i t was un-
j u s t i f i a b l e i n t h e sense itwas moral l y wrong t hen you could
go agai ns t itand not do it,but I mean, what itwould be
like--somebody sayi ng, "You go and k i l l s o and s o, " you
know what I mean, each person probably would i n t e r p r e t
i t --but t h a t t o me would be an unj us t i f i a bl e or der w i t h -
out cause.
Q- Where di d you hear t h i s ?
A- Where di d I hear what? That--I mean--not neces-
s a r i l y t h a t , t h a t ' s j u s t my own i de a , but I remember t he
c l a s s , but I don' t remember every word from it,every
d e t a i l ,
Q = Where was i t ?
A. For t Leonard Wood.
Q. Basi c?
A. Basi c t r a i ni ng.
Q. You don' t remember t he s ubj ect of t he c l a s s ?
A. No, I imagine i t would be something l i ke--I
don' t know what you would c a l l it. I t was j u s t a c l a s s .
Q- I got two exhi bi t s her e, Exhi bi t M- 2, i s a
f acs i mi l e of a pocket card c a l l e d "Nine Rul es, " have you
ever seen that?
(COL WILSON handed t he car d t o t he wi t ness. )
A. Yes.
Q. Were you ever i ssued one of t hose cards?
A. Yeah.
(SHIFLEY] 4 APP T-322
A. I n t he America1 combat cent er i n Vietnam and I
t hi nk we had some bef or e we went over from For t Lewis,
Washington. I was one of t he f i r s t replacements.
Q- ( I nt er posi ng) When di d you j oi n B Company?
A. It was on o r about t he middle of January, t he
14t h o r 15th because I got i n count ry on t he 8th--by t he
time of t he t r a i n i n g and everyt hi ng i t was t he 15t h.
Q You came d i r e c t l y from advanced i ndi vi dual t r ai ni ng?
A. Ri ght , a f t e r a 30-day l eave.
Q Thi r t y days? And you got t h i s car d bot h pl aces?
A. I t hi nk I di d, because t hes e t hi ngs were a l l
around and I remember we even had them i n our company, you
know, up i n the--
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) B Company?
A. Y e s , i n t he or der l y room t he r e , I mean, you know,
they w e r e t her e.
Q- Did you have one of t hes e car ds?
A. Not a t a l l t i mes, because i n t he fi el d--one day
you' r e w e t and t hat ' t it.
Q* How about Exhibit M- 3 , di d you ever s ee t h a t one,
cal l ed the "Enemy I n Your Hands?"
A. Y e s .
Q- Were you i s s ued one of t hose cards?
A. Yes.
Q- Where?
A. Probably t he same t i m e a s t h i s one. ( I ndi cat i ng
Exhi bi t M-2. )
Q. Mr . SHIFLEY, I want you t o t hi nk back as t hroughl y
as you can and t e l l me what you were t o l d on t he 15th of March,
pr i or t o going on t h i s oper at i on. What you w e r e going t o do and
APP T-322
FOR OFFICIAL TJSFI nNT.V
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
how we r e you goi ng t o do it and what t h e rest of t h e company
was qoi ng t o do and s o f o r t h ?
A. W e l l , as f a r as I can remember, I wasn' t - - I mean
l i k e my squad l e a de r o r pl at oon ser geant - - I c a n ' t even re-
member anybody t e l l i n g me e xa c t l y what we a r e qoi nq t o do.
W e j u s t went and what ever t hey t o l d us--you know--search t he
vi l l ages--we searched--I mean we had an i de a i f we were i n
t he a r e a and we were goi ng i n t h e r e and we knew what it was
anyway, you know, j u s t go i n t h e r e and do your job and hope
you got back out--cause--ah--the f eel i ng- - wel l , you don' t want
t h a t . But l i k e I s a y, I c a n ' t remember any i nc i de nt where
t hey s a i d , l i k e we are goi ng t o go t o g r i d coor di nat es s o and
s o and s ear ch t h i s v i l l a g e . They would j u s t say- - scut t l ebut t - -
j u s t s ay, "Wel l , tomorrow we a r e goi ng o u t , you know, t o
Pinkville--My L a i and we' r e gonna s ear ch t he v i l l a g e s o r
s ear ch and des t r oy o r what ever t h e t hi ng was. I d o n ' t re-
member i f any--l i ke I s a y, you know, c a l l i n g a meet i ng and
b r i e f i n g anybody.
Q. You d o n ' t remember a b r i e f i n g ?
A. No, I cannot hones t l y say t h a t I d o n ' t remember a
b r i e f i n g , b u t I wa s n' t i n t he b r i e f i n g , I coul d put it t h a t
way.
Q. W e l l , you got t h e word t h e r e was goi ng t o be an
oper at i on and you w e r e goi ng t o g e t on a h e l i c o p t e r and you
we r e goi ng t o go down t owards Pi nkvi l l e ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Were t h e r e any i n s t r u c t i o n s gi ven concer ni ng t h e
de s t r uc t i on of v i l l a g e s o r t h e bur ni ng of houses and s o f o r t h ?
A- Not o r a l l y , t h e r e was n' t any--
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) Nothing t h a t you got ?
A. No.
Q. Anyt hi ng about t h e t ype of ope r a t i on, whet her a
s e a r c h andde s t r oy, s ear ch and c l e a r o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h i s ?
A. I c a n ' t remember. Gener al l y, ever yt i me we went
i n t o t h a t area, it was always sear ched and i f it d i d n ' t l ook
FOROFFICIAL USEONLY
r i g h t t o t e a r it down--tear it a pa r t , because I mean t ha t i s
it.
Q - Did you consi der t h i s t he worst a r e a t h a t you
operat ed i n , o r medium o r what?
A . I consi dered it t he wor st , sir.
Q Was t h a t consi der at i on c a r r i e d throughout t he com-
pany?
A. Y e s , si r , I would t hi nk it was, yes , sir.
Q Do you know i f t he r e was any s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons
qi ven f o r t h e des t r uct i on of food st ocks?
A- No.
Q Animals ?
A. No.
Q- How about t he di s pos i t i on of t he peopl e i n iqhere,
t he nat i ves and t he i nhabi t ant s i n t he ar ea?
A. How di d we deal wi t h them?
Q = W a s t he r e any s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons on t h i s ?
A. No, not any s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons .
Q - How di d you normally deal wi t h them?
A. Well, i f you go i n t o sear ch a vi l l a ge and as l ong
as you go in--you have no fire--you have no fi re o r anything
when you go i n , you st ar t searchi ng t he vi l l a ge . W e gener al l y
rounded up a l l t he peopl e, put t he men i n one ar ea and t he
women i n one ar ea; one squad t o do t he sear chi ng and ha l f of
t he ot her squad may be up a t t he per i met er , you know, s t r ung
out , and t he ot he r squad would be watching t he peopl e and
t hey' d check t he men f o r I D ' S and what have you and some
would go through t he hootches and check t he hootches out .
Sometimes t hey wasn' t --al l of us wer en' t always neat about
it, unless--I woul dn' t say t h a t , because t he r ecor d shows
t ha t bei ng neat won' t keep you a l i v e sometimes, but as f a r
as purposel y dest r oyi ng s t u f f , food suppl i es--or ot he r what
might have you on t he whole I wouldn' t say anything--anybody
had t he i nt ent i ons of doi ng it purposely o r wi l l i ngl y a l l t he
time, but gr ant ed, I mean, na t ur a l l y some t i me s t u f f would
ge t t urned over , but usual l y you--you'd usual l y s t and there--
go i n corn o r whatever t hey' d have o r pot at oes--j ust might
t ur n them over and s e e what ' s i n it and t he peopl e can put
it back; i f t h e r e ' s a hand grenade i n t he r e f i r e t he grenade
i ns t ead of throwing out t he pot at oes.
Q - Do you know what t he pl at oons of t he company was
supposed t o do?
A. Not ekact l y. I coul dn' t say what t h e i r mi ssi on
was, as I s t a t e d before--
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) . Do you know i f t he 2d Pl at oon was
supposed t o sear ch Pi nkvi l l e?
A. Well, now you a r e t al ki ng about t he vi l l a ge ?
Q. Yes?
A. W e l l , when you say Pi nkvi l l e t h a t ' s not one vi l l a ge ,
t o me i t ' s an ar ea.
Q I mean My Lai (1) and not Son My.
A. My Lai , okay.
Q. My Lai (1).
A. W e l l , as f a r a s I knew i f t h a t i s where we w e r e
a t , I mean, now, you know, I can say f a i r l y s ur e t h a t t h a t ' s
where we was a t , but when we went on t hese--I coul dn' t shown
you on t he map exact l y where w e was goi ng u n t i l we got t he r e ,
because l i k e I s a i d, I was onl y a PFC and ri fl eman but I d i d n ' t
l a t e r on I got t o know what was going on a t t he time. I hon-
e s t l y could say I was j u s t goi ng, because I ' d onl y been t her e
2 months--there about 3 , 4 o r 5 months and you st i l l dream,
you know, of course aft erwards i t ' s a l l and we l l , because it
keeps you a l i ve . You s o r t of fol l ow al ong i n somebody e l s e ' s
f oot s t eps .
Q W e l l l i s t e n , i s t he r e anyt hi ng t h a t you can r e c a l l
about t he i nformat i on given t o you p r i o r t o going on t he oper-
a t i on t h a t was unusual o r d i f f e r e n t from any ot he r oper at i on?
(No response. )
W e a r e going t o gi ve you a run-down on t he concept
of t he oper at i on and what happened on t he f i r s t day, more o r
less t o g e t you or i ent ed, and t hen we a r e going t o go through
each day and ask you quest i ons.
(SHI,FLEY)
APP T-322
FOR OPFICXAL USE ONLY
(Map or i e nt a t i on of Exhi bi t MAP-4 by Colonel WILSON.)
When you went i n t o t he oper at i on t h a t day, do you
remember r ecei vi ng any f i r e as you approached t he l andi ng zone?
A. NO, not on my l e f t - - t ha t we come--I di dn' t - - I
c a n ' t r e c a l l any f i r i n g bei ng on it.
Q. How about when you got of f t he hel i copt er ?
A. When I got of f our pl at oon wasn ' t under f i r e , but
as I can remember, i f I ' m on t he r i g h t oper at i on, t he 1st
Platoon had some f i r e . A t t h a t time t hey were t o our l e f t and
we wer en' t under any f i r e a t t he t i me t h a t I can remember,
you know, r i g h t a f t e r we unloaded, and t hen we formed up and
moved out , but t hen 10 minutes a f t e r we moved out t hey got
Li eut enant COCHRAN.
Q - W e l l , we ' 11 probably use t h i s a e r i a l photograph
( ~ x h i b i t P-168) her e a s we go through a couple of t hi ngs and
pi n down t he times which may hel p you i n t hi nki ng back, but
you s a i d t h a t you were on t he second l i f t , o r were you on t he
f i r st l i f t ?
A. I t hi nk it was t he f i r s t l i f t , because a s I re-
member we were spread out f a i r l y l a r ge f o r secur i ng t he LZ.
Q - I got t he i mpressi on t h a t you went i n a f t e r t he
1st Pl at oon?
A. I thought t h e 1st Pl at oon went i n wi t h us , you
know--1st and 2d Pl at oons went i n a t t he same t i me.
Q = As you s a i d you were about how f a r from t he 1st
Platoon when you began t o move nor t h?
A - I guess, as f a r as I can f i gur e out , maybe 1,500
m e t e r s , 1 , 0 0 0 met ers. I t was wi t hi n e a r s hot enough t h a t you
could di s t i ngui s h t he s hot .
Q. Which di r e c t i on was t h i s f i r e ? You were moving
nor t h, you were moving back up towards Upt i ght . Now, would
the di r e c t i on have been--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) It would have been t o my l e f t .
Q Coming from t he west?
(SHTFLEY) 9 APP T-322
A. The 1st Pl at oon was t o our l e f t .
Q The 1st Pl at oon was t o your l e f t ?
A. I t hi nk so.
Q You know C Company was over t he r e t oo?
A. Y e s .
Q Look a t t h a t di s t ance on t h a t map there--from your
l andi ng zone C Company was about 1,'800--almost 2,000 met ers
and t hey had been i n t he r e and probably f i r i n g ?
A. W e l l , perhaps it was Char l i e Company, but I t hi nk
t he f i r i n g was coming from t her e.
Q The f i r e was coming from t he west?
A. W e f i r e d wi t h t he 1st Pl at oon. Some of us was
shoot i ng a t t he next row.
Q- Could you s e e t h i s 1st Pl at oon?
A- No, I could not .
Q. It was an assumption t hen t h a t t he f i r e was coming
from t he 1st Pl at oon?
A- Y e s .
Q. Because t he 1st Pl at oon was r e a l l y moving t o t he
e a s t ?
A. Where?
Q- No w, t h e 3d Platoon--I don' t know exact l y what t he
l i f t sequence was, but t he 3d Platoon coul d have been t he r e
a t t ha t t i m e . How f a r di d you move from t he pos i t i on you were
i n when you got of f t he he l i c opt e r , when you went i n t o a l i t t l e
peri met er and you began t o move nort h? How f a r di d you move
when COCHRAN h i t t h i s mine?
A. Not very far. Not even a qua r t e r of a mi l e, be-
cause I was--the peri met er of t he LZ was her e, I was over her e
( i ndi cat i ng on map). We formed up over her e, and we s t a r t e d
nor t h and it was a r i ce- - l i ke you know, a l l r i g h t , and then--
low l and. I t s t a r t e d ge t t i ng a l i t t l e h i l l y i n her e ( i ndi cat i ng) *
So, Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t it on t he s i de o f , you know, a
knol l . I was s t i l l i n t he r i c e paddy when he g o t h i t . So,
~ ' d say it was no more t han 200 o r 300 f e e t , o r something.
Q - Do you remember cr os s i ng a t r a i l ?
A. There was a l i t t l e pat h. I don' t know i f you
would c a l l i t a t r a i l . It was a pat h we were supposed t o
be following. H e had two columns and a CP group i n t he
middle and unf or t unat el y he got it and everybody e l s e around--
but you mean a major pat h?
Q - Ye s .
A. I ' d say a f oot t r a i l .
Q. You crossed it, I'm not t a l ki ng about t he one you
followed.
A. Well yeah, I guess it might have been. I t was on
t op of t he r i c e paddy--at t he edge of t he rice--where t he woods
s t a r t e d.
Q- W e l l , t h i s was t he same road t h a t you moved out on
t he next morning t o go t o t he br i dge you cr ossed, t h a t road,
r i ght ?
A. I t hi nk s o, I don? know.
Q - Do you remember hear i ng any f i r e over towards t he
s e a t o your e a s t t h a t morning?
A. W e l l , as I s a i d, I heard as we were moving out j us t
before--
Q . ( I nt er posi ng) But t h i s was t o t he w e s t , I mean
over t o t he e a s t .
A. Where I t hought t he 1st Pl at oon was--
Q- ( I nt er posi ng) Yes, where t he 1st Pl at oon went,
down towards t he s ea?
A.
Okay, t h a t ' s when I heard t he f i r i n g , it was t o my
l e f t .
Q I was wondering about t h a t f i r e , di d you hear any
f i r e on t he r i g h t ?
A.
Maybe t he r e was, but t he bi gges t t hi ng I can re-
member is the f i r e from t he l e f t .
APP T-322
FOR OFFICIALUSEONLY
Q. You can normal l y t e l l
i f it w a s in-coming, di d
you remember any in-coming--just s m a l l arms f i r e- -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) It was s mal l arms f i r e , it was n' t
no pi ngs.
Q- W e r e any of t h e doorgunners f i r i n g when you come
i n ?
A. Ye a h .
Q. They were?
A. They were s pr ayi ng as I can remember. 1was next
t o t h a t gun and my ears were r i ngi ng when we g o t of f andwhen
we come i n t h e doorgunner, he wa s j u s t s pr ayi ng t h e immediate
a r e a of t h e wood l i n e , because I ' m p r e t t y s u r e we w e r e t he
first lift i n , because he was j u s t spr ayi ng the a r e a , you know,
t he gunners.
Q. I'm goi ng t o ask M r . WALSH t o b r i e f you on t he
phot ograph he r e and gi ve you a l i t t l e run-down on t h i s a r e a
and wat ch t hi s phot ograph on t h e t a b l e c a r e f ul l y, because I
t hi nk you mi ght be a bl e t o pi c t ur e t he oper at i on a l i t t l e
b e t t e r .
(Phot o o r i e n t a t i o n of Exhi bi t P-168 by M r . WALSH.)
A t t he t i m e t h a t Li eut enant COCHRANwas h i t , do
you r e c a l l s eei ng t h e peopl e who were c a s u a l t i e s a t the t i me
he wa s h i t ? Do you r e c a l l s e e i ng him evacuat ed?
(No r esponse. 1
Do you r e c a l l t he t ype of a i r c r a f t t h a t evacuat ed
him?
A. A r e gul a r s l i c k .
9- It was a r e gul a r s l i c k ?
A. I t hi nk s o, I'm n o t s ur e .
Q. No marki ngs on i t ?
A. No.
Q. Do you know i f t h i s was Col onel BARKER'S a i r c r a f t ?
Di d you see him?
APP T-322
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
A. NO, I wasn' t t h a t cl ose. When he got h i t I was
almost a t the end of t he column and I got a pi ece of shrapnel--
j us t a l i t t l e pi ece and i t scar ed me t o deat h and t hen I--1
was h i t i n t he stomach, but i t was n' t anyt hi ng ser i ous- - j ust
c ut t he s ki n a l i t t l e . So, we were st i l l i n t he r i c e paddy
f ur t he r down and I remember t h i s guy GUNTA and he came up and
s a i d , "What happened?" And a f t e r t h a t we were l ayi ng t her e
and one of t he s e ni or medics came over from t he company CP t o
gi ve hel p, because t he r e wa s qui t e a few wounded and hur t .
When t he chopper come i n I was t o t he l e f t and i n t he back of
i t more o r l e s s , because I was s t i l l l ayi ng i n t he paddy, I
d i d n ' t want t o g e t up. And t hen t h e chopper l e f t and t hen we
formed up and t h i s time we went i n t o a s i ngl e f i l e and we had
a mine det ect or and they were det ect i ng and t hey picked up
something. This was a bi g gr i pe even u n t i l t he time I got out
and I extended and I was one of t he l a s t guys that--you know
what I mean--to l eave, but t he mine de t e c t or , t he poi nt men
they picked something on t he knol l l i k e a s we went up t he h i l l
and t hey kept passi ng t he word back--you know--to bypass i t ,
because we d i d n ' t have time t o check it out o r anyt hi ng.
So,
t he word supposedly kept coming back and it never got back t o
t he two guys i n f r ont of me. For t unat el y, t he guy i n f r ont
of me missed it and I missed it and t hen, l i k e I s a i d , t he
guy behind me , wel l t hen he h i t it and as f a r as I know t oday,
it was a 1 0 5 , and it blew of f bot h l egs .
Q Both l egs ?
A. He was behind me . And God hel p me, mi racul ousl y, I
onl y took anot her l i t t l e pi ece. I j us t got anot her l i t t l e bi t t y- -
i t ' s a l l crone away, t he s c a r . And t he guy from behind him from
what I understand l o s t a ki dney, but h i s was up--like t h i s ( i ndi -
cat i ng wi t h hands) and I guess t he b l a s t went back down from
the t hi ng--j ust a l i t t l e b i t come over , because some of t he
guys up f r o n t s a i d t hey could hear some of t he s t uf f going over.
Q. The t i m e we had on t h a t a t l e a s t as f a r as t he l og
(Exhi bi t M- 16) goes was t h a t t he booby t r a p which k i l l e d Lieu-
t enant COCHRAN wa s det onat ed a t 0845 and t he next group, when
t h a t booby t r a p o r mine whatever it was, t r i pped, it was 0930--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) Yeah, t h e peri od of time t he evacua-
t i on came i n and t he pl at oon--aft er Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d
t h a t l e f t Sergeant WOOD, I ' m s ur e. H e was i n command. H e was
t he pl at oon l e a de r , because he was an E-5 and he wasn' t--he was
a shaky t ype of guy anyway, but he was the onl y one there s o ,
FOR OFFICAL USE ONLY
a f t e r we g o t t he wounded evacuat ed out he formed it up because
it c e r t a i n l y d i d n ' t do any good wal ki ng i n two columns as
Li eut enant COCHRAN had us doi ng, because t h e r e wa s 6 o r 7
o r maybe 8 guys evacuat ed where i n t h i s i nc i de nt r i g h t a f t e r
we s t a r t e d moving agai n there wa s onl y two, I mean i t ' s bad,
b u t you know what I mean?
Q. Y e s .
A. A s i n g l e f i l e i s b e t t e r t han a doubl e, b u t from
t h e t i me t he he l i c opt e r s came i n and pi cked up t h e wounded
and t hen a f t e r we moved out--and t h a t ' s where t h e t i m e el asped.
Q-
L e t me g e t your or de r of march from t h e l andi ng
zone up t o t he t i me t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN w a s k i l l e d . Which
squad was on t h e l e f t and which squad was on t he r i g h t ? You
were broken down i n t o two el ement s?
A. Ri ght . The second, t h e f i r s t squad was on t he l e f t
and t he second squad was t o t h e r i g h t of me, because I was i n
t he f i r s t squad and t he second squad was t o my r i g h t . K!
c.:
Q. And t hen when you moved i n t o a s i n g l e column a f t e r
Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d which squad was l eadi ng?
!pd
3
A- The second squad wa s s t i l l l eadi ng because I w a s
33
s t i l l t owards t h e end of t h e f i r s t squad and we had two poi nt
men up f r o n t , t hey bel onged t o our squad.
Q. Okay, t h e second squad l e d , where was t he 3d Pl at oon?
A. Af t e r t ha t - - a l l t hat - - hones t l y, I c oul dn' t say u n t i l
t h a t day was about over , I c a n ' t r e a l l y remember where anybody
wa s a t o r t oo much of what wa s goi ng on because I ' 11 be hones t
with you, you know what I mean. I j u s t di dn ' t--I guess you
coul d s ay I j u s t went al ong i n a daze, because I--
Q . You had a coupl e of c l os e c a l l s ?
A. Y e s , si r , I d i d , b u t t hank God I ' m a l i v e .
Q e Well t hen, a f t e r t he second group w a s wounded,
which we c a l c ul a t e d accor di ng t o t h e l o g t h e r e was t h r e e
wounded. Did t h e h e l i c o p t e r t h a t evacuat ed these--was t h i s a
dus t of f o r wa s it anot her s l i c k ?
A. The second t i me?
Q The second t i me, t he second group t h a t wa s evacuat ed?
(SHIFLEY} 1 4 APP T-322
A. This iswhen I was dusted-of f.
Q. You were dusted-off ?
A. Iwas dusted-off on t he second one. I remember,
wai t a minute, I remember when t he f i r s t one went o f f . Let
me t hi nk. Okay, because man, I t e l l you I haven' t remembered
none of t h i s u n t i l I got t h i s telegram. Af t er Li eut enant
COCHRAN was dusted-off we moved out and I t o l d you t h a t
GUNTA h i t t he t hi ng- - i t was not bad, g e t what I mean, but I
had a pi ece, you know, broke t he s ki n enough t o br i ng t he
blood and itcame over my l e g and t he medic s a i d , "You go
i n t oo, " and wi t h t h a t I went in--because itwasn' t--
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) . You were one of t he t hr e e men t hen?
A. Right. And as you quest i oned e a r l i e r about t he
s l i c ks t he r e was--when we went in--because I know itwas pr e t t y,
you know what I mean, because he was r i g h t t he r e , l ayi ng wi t h
me, and t he ot he r guy--I f e l t l i k e an as s because I though I
wasn' t hur t t h a t bad, but you c a n ' t argue w i t h t he medics t h a t
itwas, anyway, itwas a pl a i n s l i c k and I don' t know i f it
was Colonel BARKER, but itwas a ranki ng o f f i c e r i n t he chopper
and t he r e was a col ored man i n t he r e t oo, and i f he was a medic
I don' t know. I don' t know i f he was a medic, because a f t e r
they put Charlie--he was t o r e up pr e t t y bad i n t he l egs--Charl i e
GUNTA, he was t o r e up pr e t t y bad and t he r e was n' t anybody on
t he chopper, you know what I mean, t o gi ve him any as s i s t ance
whi l e going wi t h t he t hi ng.
MR WALSH: Did t he ranking o f f i c e r have any ki nd of pecul i ar
kind of helmet on?
A. Had on a helmet wi t h a--
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) Did t he commander have a pa r t i c ul a r
col or ?
A. White, itmight have been whi t e. I don' tknow
f o r s ur e, because usual l y I--I imagine most of them were
whi t e, except f o r t he p i l o t s , t hey had a l l ki nds of desi gns
or something on them. I coul dn' t say f o r s ur e itwas Colonel
BARKER a t t he t i me, but I don' t know i f you l i k e my i dea o r
not , but I guess not itmay--probably was Colonel BARKER, be-
cause itwasn' t a medevac chopper and a s f a r as I know, we
always--it wa s a t hi ng i n t he company t h a t whenever we was i n
an operation--within a v e l l , you know, you could h o l l e r a t them.
Q. He was normally very cl os e t o t he ground?
A. Yeah. The men t hought very hi ghl y of him f o r t h i s ,
because on occasi on, when we w e r e i n a l aager pos i t i on he' d
f l y i n and walk around wi t h t he men, because I know, I had a--
w e l l one of my numerous f r i ends t o l d me t h a t one of t he guys i n
one of the companies--he had a--we were on an oper at i on, I
don' t know what itwas--just a rumor--his w i f e had a baby and
Colonel BARKER brought t h e message out per sonal l y t o him o r
something l i k e t h i s and t he men t hought very hi ghl y of Colonel
BARKER.
Q- Did he normally f l y a t a p r e t t y low a l t i t u d e over
oper at i ons ?
A. Y e s .
Q. D i d you s e e him on theground?
A. I don' t know i f itwas him, but I s een, you know,
choppers wi t h markings wi t h some act i on o r something and the
choppers would be r i g h t around t her e. You know what I mean as
f a r a s t he company and t he i de a t h a t he wasn't--you know what
Imean--he wa s t he r e wi t h h i s men. I mean when you a r e i n t he
i nf a nt r y you know, when you a r e beat i ng t he bush and you' r e a
pr i va t e o r PFC--even up t o t he dr af t ed sergeant--no of f ens e,
but your regards f o r higher-ups, I mean you know, penci l pushers,
but Colonel BARKER though was okay, because he cared f o r h i s
men, t h a t ' s my opi ni on.
Q. Did you know Colonel HENDERSON?
A. I knew who he was. I di d not know him per sonal l y.
Iwas not t he r e r e a l l y l ong enough t o g e t t o know him, because
when--I di dn' t - - act ual l y, I heard h i s name, but I never seen him,
January t hen. They had joined Task Force--Colonel BARKER had
come out , you know, u n t i l t he Task Force BARKER broke up and
we went back working wi t h br i gade and ba t t a l i on t hen I--
COL WILSON: ( I nt er posi ng) Colonel BARKER, i n h i s he l i c opt e r
normally had from t hr e e t o f our PRC-25's and probably one o r
two people moni t ori ng t hes e r adi os . Did you by any chance,
not i ce a number of r adi os i n t he chopper?
(SHIFLEY) 1 6 APP T-322
P
C
. A
3
A. N o , I hones t l y c oul dn' t s ay. It was packed--t here
were t hr e e of us i n t he r e and t h e t hi ng wa s packed up, b u t you
know what I mean, it d i d n ' t seem l i k e much room, because GUNTA
was l ayi ng down s t r a i g h t and me and Peewee--I d o n ' t remember
t he guy' s name, he was i n one cor ner and I was i n t h e ot he r cor-
ner and I had a hol d of Chuck' s hand, because you know, t h e
col onel , man, he had Chuck' s ot he r hand, so I c oul dn' t say t he r e
was t w o r adi os . I d i d n ' t even know where my weapon went . I t
was on t h e chopper. For t unat el y, it got back t o t h e company
ar ea. Somebody put it on t h e chopper.
Q. We c a r r y t he f ol l owi ng per sonnel k i l l e d or wounded
t h a t day : COCHRAN, WILBURN , CANTU, HITCHMAN, TRAVERSA, SHIFLEY,
HACHEN, and GUNTA.
A. Ri ght .
Q So you and who w e r e t h e ot he r t w o on t h e a i r c r a f t ?
You---
A. GUNTA and a guy named--
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) WILBURM , CANTU , HITCHMAN, TRAVERSA,
SHIFLEY , HACHEN and GUNTA.
A. Thi s guy wa s a b i g guy fzom Montana and he had pr e-
vi ousl y been wounded i n anot her oper at i on and t h i s wa s h i s f i r s t
day back, because I remember we t o l d him t o s t a y l a s t man s o he
would be s a f e and he got it worse t han anybody, I mean i n t h e
second i nc i de nt . But a l l of them, I know, a l l of t h e names
very w e l l , except t h i s one her e ( i ndi c a t i ng) .
Q. HACHEN. Thi s i nf or mat i on came from t h e 11t h Bri gade
l og, r i g h t ? The morning r e por t which i s Exhi bi t R-4 shows
CANTU, WILBURN, GUNTA, HITCHMAN, SHIFLEY, TRAVERSA and no such
name as HACHEN.
-A. And t h e man, Pewee, h i s name was n' t t he r e . Let me
look on her e ( l ooki ng a t Exhi bi t M-24) .
Q. Go ahead.
A. Because I know, I ' m s ur e t h a t wa s n ' t h i s name,
HACHEN, bdcause I di dn' t even t hi nk I e ve r hear d of HACHEN.
RCDR: Col onel MILLER and I sur mi se t h a t t h i s name coul d
ver y we l l have been e nt e r e d and l i s t e d on t h e l o g , y e t he di dn' t
go t o t he h o s p i t a l and it was not l i s t e d i n t he morning r epor t . '
Q HACHEN?
RCDR: Y e s , coul d ver y w e l l have been e nt e r e d i n t o and could
have been l i s t e d i n t h e l og, y e t not i n t h e morning r e por t .
Q- H e i s on t h e l og t hough.
RCDR: Y e s . He is on t h e l og.
0 Was he on t h e f i r s t l i f t o r second l i f t when he was
wounded? You d o n ' t know?
A. It mi ght have been a f a i r l y new man.
Q ~ W e got a man named BLEACHER, t h a t ' s - -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) BLEACHER.
Q. BLEACHER, i s t h i s t h e quy you' r e t a l k i n g about ?
A. That I s it, you know, we j u s t c a l l e d him Peewee, be-
cause he was a peewee.
Q. Did you g e t t h a t on t he r ecor d?
( Af f i r mat i ve nod by t h e r e por t e r . )
Q BLEACHER was a man--so, on your h e l i c o p t e r was your-
s e l f , BLEACHER and GUNTA?
A. Ri ght .
Q And a l l t he rest were on t he f i r s t he l i c opt e r ?
A. Ri ght . That HACHEN, i f he was i n t he company he was
f a i r l y new o r he d i d n ' t come back a f t e r he was wounded agai n or
t r a ns f e r r e d o r somet hi ng, because I d o n ' t even remember t he name
a t a l l . I d o n ' t t hi nk I hear d t he name, b u t per haps he coul d be-'
he was a new man.
Q. So, you were evacuat ed accor di ng t o t h e l og, you were
pr obabl y t aken out . W e l l , t h e booby t r a p wa s t r i ppe d a t 0930 and
t h e l og shows t he evacuat i on about t h e same t i me.
( SHI FLEY) 1 8 APP T-322
LTC NOLL: Same t i me.
COL WILSON: You were evacuated about t h a t t i me?
A. Yeah, because I went i n t o Chu Lai.
Q*
Now di d you q e t back i n t o t he oper at i on?
A. That ' s why a f t e r vou s a i d t he t r a i l and a f t e r t he
t r a p and t hen, you know, I thought of GUNTA, because I knew
I had been l i f t e d o f f . That ' s when I went and af t er - - I d i d n ' t
q e t back t o t he company f o r maybe two and a ha l f weeks, because
I spent 3 days i n Chu Lai and about a week i n Qui Nhon and t hen
2 days s e t t i n g back and about a day and a ha l f i n t he r e a r .
Q. How come t hey d i d n ' t qi ve vou a pur pl e he a r t ?
A. They di d. They present ed i t t o me i n t he hos pi t a l .
Q- Yes?
A. Y e s , and t hen s e n t ithome.
LTC NOLL: Do you r e c a l l Capt ai n MICHLES coming over t o t he
chopper when YOU were loaded?
A. No, si r. I don' t remember Captain MICHLES. The
l a s t I knew of Capt ai n MICHLES on the morning--because SWEENEY,
t he s e ni or a i d man had run over from the CP and I guess t he CP
was somewhere behind us sir--somewhere around they' d--I re-
member him hol l e r i ng, he was c l os e enough, I coul d hear him
hol l e r , because t h e man--he would scream over t he r a di o and he
was cl os e enough he d i d n ' t need t he r a di o and a f t e r t he chopper
come i n because of t he noi s e and everybody, itwas--there was
no l eader s hi p, because a f t e r Li eut enant COCHRAN went t h a t was
t he onl y o f f i c e r we had and t he r e s t of t h e NCO' s were a l l
vol unt eer s o r dr a f t e e s . None of them had, you know what I
mean, p r i o r experi ence o r anyt hi ng when ithappens t h a t f a s t ,
you know l i k e t ha t . What I mean--everybody g e t s a l i t t l e
shaky, because when you l os e , you know, you have t h a t many
men evacuat ed off i n a mat t er of an hour and you g e t a l i t t l e
shaky and sometime you j u s t don' t--you j u s t f or ge t about
t hi ngs .
Q. W e l l now, t h e r e ' s one ot he r ques t i on I have con-
cerni ng this p a r t i c u l a r time per i od and Iw i l l t e l l you what
some of the t est i mony has been t o s e e i f itmight br i ng some-
t hi ng back t o your mind. I t ' s pos s i bl e t h a t we bel i eve what
(SHIFLEY2 . 19 APP T-322
FOR OFFICIAL US E ONLY
some of t he testimony i ndi cat es e i t h e r t h a t 2d o r 3d Pl at oon
was supposed t o sweep through My Lai (1) and t h a t when
COCHRON--and I don' t know when you h i t t he mine t he second
t i me or when you a l l h i t t he mine t he f i r s t time--but r i ght
i n t h a t t i m e frame t h a t Colonel BARKER was supposed t o have
t ol d MICHLES not t o sweep through t he a r e a , because I suppose
he f e l t t he r e were t oo many mines i n t he r e and he t ol d him t o
s t a y out .
A. Yeah.
Q- Do you know of anything--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) I di dn ' t hear of anything--hearsay ,
but not as f a r as hearing--
Q - ( I nt er posi ng) Well, what hearsay di d you hear?
A. When I got back t o t he company, you know, na t ur a l l y,
I wanted t o know what happened aft erwards.
Q - Y e s ?
A. The two poi nt men t h a t day--we were t hi ck as f l e a s ,
because we went out t oget her and t hey f i l l e d me i n on what
happened aft erwards and because you know, t hey--I, because
t he r e was not t h a t many of them l e f t s o, t hey s a i d t h a t t h a t
ni ght , you know, a f t e r we h i t it, t hey formed up and pul l ed
back out and t hey went wi t h Capt ai n MICHLES--the CP group--
They j u s t made a bi gger CP qroup, because t he r e c oul dn' t have--
know what I mean, I don' t know what t hey done.
Q You don' t know i f t he r e was a change i n the or der s ,
about not sweeping t he vi l l a ge ?
A- No, I coul dn' t say s o , because t he onl y t hi ng I re-
member aft erwards when t he second t hi ng went of f which is j u s t
hear say, some s kut t l ebut t - - t al ki ng and s t u f f .
Q- Do you have any knowledge of an i nve s t i ga t i on o r
i nqui r y bei ng conducted a f t e r t h i s oper at i on?
A. No.
(SHIFLEY) APP T-322
Q -
While you were i n Vietnam?
A. No.
Q-
You say you extended over t her e?
A. Y e s , but I was i n t he r e a r t he l a s t por t i on of my
time s o I d i d n ' t mind.
8 -
Were you o r anyone ever quest i oned about this
operat i on?
A - No.
Q No one you kneii?
Q - Did you ever hear any rumors t h a t c i v i l i a n s had
been unnecessar i l y k i l l e d by e i t h e r B/ 4/ 3 o r C/1/20 on 16
March 1968?
A. No si r , I di dn' t . I have heard a l o t of war
s t o r i e s , but I never heard of any mass k i l l i n g s o r any un-
j us t i f i a bl e k i l l i n g s i n my company and I di dn' t hear anyt hi ng
of Char l i e Company u n t i l I got home and I heard about it on
TV from guys t h a t wer en' t even t he r e and i n t ur n t o me--that
makes me r e s e nt f ul , because I was wi t h t hose guys and i f some-
t hi ng would have happened I would have been t her e. I f I
wouldn' t have been t he r e I would have been t he r e l a t e r and I
s ur el y would have heard about it and I would t e s t i f y u n t i l I
t urned bl ue i n t he f a c e , I d i d n ' t s e e anybody i n my company
o r i n my pl at oon do anyt hi ng t l a t was not accordi ng t o t he
laws of t he Geneva Convention o r however you want t o say it.
Q Did you hear any s c u t t l e b u t t about t he 1st Pl at oon
operat i ng acr oss t he r i v e r t h a t day?
A. Not t h a t I can remember.
Q - Nothing about an excessi ve amount of f i r i n g ?
A. The 1st Pl at oon was always good a t shoot i nq a t
ghost s. They used t o shoot up a l o t of s t u f f . Not a t people
or not hi ng. They j ust --t hey1 d g e t a few rounds and t hey' d
s t a r t l ayi ng i n f i r e a l l over i ns t ead of t r yi nq t o f i gur e o u t
what i t wa s o r where it was coming from, but I don' t know--
no, t h a t is not t he same oper at i on. I don' t --wel l , you don' t
want t o hear t h i s .
&- Y e s , what?
A. Okay, you want t o know, t he 1st Pl at oon- - al l
r i g h t , I c a n ' t s ay what ope r a t i on, it mi ght have been an
oper at i on af t er war ds o r bef or e t h a t , but we w e r e on--we w e r e
r i g h t on t h e c o a s t and t h e r e was an i s l a nd o u t t he r e and
t he r e was a b i g l ong wide br i dge , it wa s n' t a f oot br i dge ,
you know, pat h. It was r e a l bi g. A l l r i g h t , t hey w e r e out
on t h a t i s l a n d , 1st Pl at oon al one and t he ne xt day o r a
coupl e days l a t e r o r somet hi ng t hey w e r e supposed t o come
back, s o Capt ai n MICHLES c a l l e d and t o l d them and s a i d ,
"Don' t come acr os s t h a t t h i n g u n t i l you c l e a r e d i t . " I
t hi nk t hey had a coupl e of engi neer s , very seldom but maybe
we had them t h a t day s o t hey wai t ed and wai t ed and t h e en-
gi ne e r s d i d n ' t do it o r something--somehow somet hi ng d i d n ' t
happen s o t h e r e was f our Vietnamese i n t he groups--four Vi et -
namese wal ki ng acr os s t he t hi ng you see- so I d o n ' t know who
s a i d t o do it o r what , but t hey t ook t he f our "gooks" and
t ur ned them around and s a i d , "We ' 11 f ol l ow you back. " Na-
t u r a l l y , t hey s t ayed f a r enough away and--but when t he "gooks"
got blown away, t h e "gooks ," t hey s a i d when t hey come acr os s
t hey were wal ki ng l i k e t h i s (zi g-zag) t hey were not goi ng
s t r a i g h t . They w e r e wal ki ng funny. Tha t ' s why t hey suspect ed,
you know. I n t h e f i r s t pl a c e it would be l i k e s u i c i d e t o go
t hr ough t h e r e , because t hey had been i n t h e r e f o r a day o r
two, you g e t what I mean, from t he r e s t of them and n a t u r a l l y
t hey coul d set i n t h e r e and mine t h e r oad. So, t he next morn-
i ng from what w e hear d t hey t ur ned t h e pr i s one r s around, you
know, t h e guys t h a t were wal ki ng acr os s and made them go back,
you know, us i ng them as poi nt because i f t hey come t hr ough
t he r e , w e l l t hey knew it. Okay, i f t hey d i d n ' t , t hey s houl dn' t
have been t he r e . I f t hey come t hrough t h e r e , t h e Vi et namese,
t hey l e t t he peopl e know t he s t u f f is t h e r e . A s it happened,
t hey d i d n ' t . As it happened t hey h i t it.
Q- Was t h i s a f t e r o r bef or e?
A. I c a n ' t r e a l l y s ay. I t hi nk i t was a f t e r t h a t
happened, a f t e r I wa s wounded and on a l a t e r ope r a t i on, but I
c a n ' t say f o r s ur e . It may have been t h e f i r s t week I was i n
t h e count r y, I c a n ' t remember,
These peopl e w e r e blown up on t h e br i dge?
Q.
A. Y e s .
Q They mined t h e br i dge?
A. N o , it wa s n' t a bri dge--wel l --t here was a br i dge.
It was l i k e a l evee.
22
APP T-322
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
A. Y e s , i t was as wide as t h i s t a b l e o r wi der ( poi nt i ng)
and i t went o u t of t h i s ( i ndi c a t i ng on MAP-3) s o t he wat er
coul d r un t hr ough. I t reminded me of t h i s ( i ndi c a t i ng on MAP-3) .
~f t h i s is t h e v i l l a g e I ' m t hi nki ng o f , it was always rundown.
Q. I t was t he causeway pr obabl y?
A. Ri ght , t h e causeway. Thi s must have been t he br i dge
and t h i s w a s l i k e a l e ve e and t hey supposedl y boarded up t he
concr et e p a r t , t he mine o r what ever it was det onat ed t h e r e . They
h i t it. The ones t h a t were a l i v e were evacuat ed. They were
dust edof f and t he engi neer s- - I d o n ' t know i f t hey went on out
t he r e o r not . We never depended on them t oo much.
Q. DO you remember any of t h e engi neer s t h a t worked wi t h
your u n i t ?
A. No, I hones t l y can' t say--I c a n ' t remember names o r
even what t hey l ooked l i k e . I remember one of them was a l i t t l e
chubby guy and he was f ol l owi ng me one day and he was i n our
pl at oon. H e had t h i s mi ne, i t must have been h i s very f i r s t day
i n t he f i e l d and he had a l l of h i s s t u f f over hi m and he was
droppi ng i t and he was supposed t o be up f r o n t . W e had one of our
men up f r o n t pr ot e c t i ng him wi t h a mine de t e c t or . But , t hen aqai n
I ' m not s ayi ng a l l of t he s e guys were a was t e, j u s t l i k e i n t he
i nf a nt r y we had some s or r y peopl e i n our o u t f i t once i n awhi l e.
Q. W e r e you e ve r t o l d not t o di s c us s t h i s oper at i on with
anybody?
A. N o , because it was--nobody t o l d us not t o di s c us s
anyt hi ng.
Q. Younever hear d anyt hi ng about t h i s ?
A. No.
Q. A l o t of k i l l i n g o r unnecessar y k i l l i n g on t h i s
oper at i on?
A. No, as l ong as I was i n Vietnam--I was from January
of 1968 t o March of 1969. A l l of t he time I was over t h e r e I
never hear d of any mass murders o r any di s cr epanci es of any ki nd
towards--or even t he b a t t a l i o n o r anyt hi ng when we we r e i n t h a t
ar ea. Nat ur al l y, dur i ng t he summer we sl owl y phased o u t of t he
ar ea. I guess t hey f i gur ed t hey 10st t o o many guys.
Q. Do you know i f t h e r e was any problem wi t h mar i j uana
i n B Company?
(SHIFLEY1 23 APP T-322
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
A. Some di d i t . I wouldn' t say a probl em. because
i n my pl at oon- - l et me s e e . I know t he r e was one o r two
t h a t used i t and one of them--he i s dead anyway, but t he
ot he r one--they used i t when t hey come i n t o bas e. They used
i t t hen, but t hey wouldn ' t smoke it i n t he bunker s. They
would s e t away i n t o t h e v i l l a g e . I hear d when you a r e s t a t e -
s i d e and have t r a i n i n g and ever yt hi ng, i t ' s j u s t l i k e my
par ent s . They t hi nk everybody i n Vietnam smokes pot . But
when I q o t over t h e r e I found t he men were a g r e a t bunch of
guys and t h e i nf ant r y- - t hey d i d n ' t want t o do anyt hi ng t o
j eopar di ze t h e i r l i v e s , because i f t hey d i d n ' t have t h e i r
s t u f f t oget her - - i t onl y t ook a s n l i t second because you d i d n ' t
g e t much s l e e p anyway. Even i n t he f i r e ba s e s , t h e i nf a nt r y
had t o p u l l bunker guard and p u l l p a t r o l and K P t o o , whi l e
t he r e s t of t he peopl e manned t he guns o r what ever t hey had
t o do. Per s onal l y, I d o n ' t t hi nk it was e xt e ns i ve l y used.
Na t ur a l l y, t h e r e a r e goi ng t o be some t o do it anyways.
Q. Did you e ve r he a r of any U.S. o r ARVN i ndi vi dua l s
t o r t u r i n g VC s us pe c t s o r pr i s one r s of war?
A. I have hear d not hi ng about my company, not my
per sonnel . I have hear d o l d s t o r i e s . I hear d s t a t e s i d e
where t hey t a ke them up i n a h e l i c o p t e r and throw them out
and s t u f f l i k- e t h a t .
Q - I ' m t a l ki ng about conf i ni ng i t wi t hi n this ar ea?
A. No.
Q And a l s o i n t h i s oper at i on.
A. Thi s ope r a t i on, a s it w a s , I d i d n ' t have much t i m e .
Q. Did you e ve r he a r of i t ?
A. No, I ' v e hear d and s een guys s l a p peopl e around,
b u t sometimes i t was j u s t i f i e d , because i f you a r e s ear chi ng
t hr ough a l a dy' s hoot ch and sometimes t hey g e t a l i t t l e hat e-
f u l and r e s e n t f u l , which I c a n ' t blame them, I woul dn' t want
anybody t o come i n t o my house and t e a r it a p a r t , but a l l and
a l l , I t hi nk t he t i m e I was i n t h e f i e l d wi t h Bravo Company
and t he men I s er ved wi t h, I t hi nk t hey d i d t h e i r j ob ver y
w e l l .
Q Do you have any f u r t h e r s t at ement s o r t est i mony
t h a t may he l p us wi t h i nve s t i ga t i on?
A. N o t t h a t I can t hi nk o f , unl es s you q o t any more
ques t i ons . I c a n ' t t hi nk of any s p e c i f i c s t o br i ng out .
(SHIFLEY) 2 4 APP T- 322
A - Y e s .
Q Did you have o r know of anybody t h a t had a camera
on t h i s oper at i on?
A. I had one.
Q Y e s , but , your time i n t he r e was l i mi t ed?
A. Yes ., Michael SMI TH had one, he ' s dead. I don' t
know h i s name, but I know h i s nickname, we c a l l e d him--he was
from Alabama. H e had one t oo, a l i t t l e Kodak.
Q - J ONES ?
A- David J ONES. There probably were ot he r s , but
I coul dn' t s ay, because a t times whenever you could keep one
working and you could g e t film--guys were qoi ng i n t o t he r e a r
whenever t hey coul d and come out and sel l it f o r double t he
pr i c e .
Q. M r . SHIFLEY, I ' d l i k e t o r eques t t h a t you not di s -
cuss your testimony i n t h i s case wi t h ot he r s , i ncl udi ng ot he r
wi t ness, except as you may be r equi r ed t o do s o bef or e a com-
e t e n t j udi c i a l , admi ni s t r at i ve o r l e g i s l a t i v e body.
(The hear i ng adjourned a t 1 2 1 6 hour s, 4 February
1970 .)
APP T-322
WITNESS: ASKEW, Walter A.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 28 Januar y 1970
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Ri fl eman, Thi r d Squad,
Thi r d Pl at oon, B/4/3.
..=
Mr . ASKEW had never s een t he MACV car ds "Nine Rulesl1
and "The Enemy i n Your Hands" (pg. 4 ) .
Ser geant BRADDOCK was ASKEW'S squad l eader and
Ser geant MCCLOUD w a s t he t h i r d pl at oon l eader ( pg. 3 ) .
H e w a s b r i e f e d by h i s squad l e a de r on 15 March. There
w e r e no s p e c i a l o r unusual i n s t r u c t i o n s gi ven f o r t h e
16-19 March oper at i on. Everyone expect ed heavy resistance
when t hey w e r e t o l d t h a t t hey w e r e goi ng i n t o Pi nkvi l l e
(pgs. 4-7) .
3 . B/4/3 COMBAT OPERATIONS, 16-19 MARCH 1968.
The wi t nes s l anded on t h e LZ i n t h e second l i f t .
The doorgunners were f i r i n g a s s ni pe r f i r e w a s bei ng
r ecei ved by t h e t r oops al r eady on t h e ground from t h e
v i l l a g e (pg. 7 ) . Li eut enant COCHRAN had been k i l l e d
p r i o r t o t h e second l i f t ' s i n s e r t i o n (pg. 8). While on
t he LZ t hey r et ur ned t h e s ni pe r f i r e from t h e a dj a c e nt
v i l l a g e (pg. 8 ) . However, t h e wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t h e
(ASKEW)
SUM, APP T-260
in-coming f i r e was a c t ua l l y coming from C/1/20 (pg. 9 ) .
The second pl at oon moved of f t h e LZ f i r s t , f ol l owed by t he
t h i r d pl at oon (pgs. 20, 21). H e s a w a he l i c opt e r evacuat e
some of t h e wounded, b u t he di d not know i f itw a s a
C&C s hi p (pg. 1 0 ) . The f i r s t pl at oon cr os s ed a br i dge
whi l e t he remai nder of B/4/3 remained i n t h e gener al a r e a
(pg. 10). A t about 1630 o r 1700 hour s C/1/20 j oi ned
B/4/3 and t he two companies set up t h e i r ni ght def ens i ve
pos i t i ons (pg. 11)i n a nearby v i l l a g e (pg. 19) . ASKEW
not i ced s e v e r a l uni formed i n t e r p r e t e r s i n t he a r e a t h a t
ni ght (pg. 1 2 ) . They had s e ve r a l de t a i ne e s , b u t he di d
not know which company had pi cked them up ( pgs. 12, 1 3 ) .
H e bel i eved t h a t a he l i c opt e r evacuat ed t h e det ai nees t h e
next morning (pg. 1 4 ) . ASKEW had no knowledge .of
VC s us pect s bei ng s hot i n t h e l aager pos i t i on t h a t ni ght
(pg. 19) . He r e c a l l e d a he l i c opt e r f l ew i n a h o t meal a t
t h e l a a ge r pos i t i on.
He di d not know i f he saw Li eut enant
JOHNSON and Ser geant MI NH on 16 March or i f itwas 17 March
(pg. 1 7 ) . Lat er on 1 6 March he saw an o l d man, who had
been wounded when t hey f i r e d i n t o t h e v i l l a g e , w e s t of
t h e br i dge which t h e f i r s t pl at oon cr os s ed ( pgs. 18, 19) .
b. 17 March.
B/4/3, minus t h e f i r s t pl at oon, moved toward t h e
br i dge on 17 March 1968. However, bef or e r eachi ng t h e
br i dge, t hey hear d f i r i n g i n t he v i c i n i t y of t he br i dge
(pg. 21) . They h a l t e d f o r 20 t o 30 mi nut es ( pg. 2 1 ) . Two
gunshi ps came on s t a t i o n and s t r a f e d t he a r e a c l os e t o t he
f i r s t pl a t oon' s pos i t i ons on t he e a s t s i d e of t h e br i dge
( pgs. 21, 22) . Af t er cr os s i ng t he br i dge, TAYLOR, who
was wounded, was evacuat ed by a he l i c opt e r which ASKEW
saw l and (pg. 23). He d i d not s e e any bodi es t he r e (pg.23).
Around 1300 ASKEW saw a he l i c opt e r l and and a S t a r s and
St r i p e s phot ographer j oi ned B/4/3. The phot ographer
remained wi t h t he f i r s t pl at oon. He was weari ng a s o f t
cap, and he c a r r i e d a camera ( pgs. 2 4 , 25, 27) . The
chopper a l s o brought i n Li eut enant MUNDY and s uppl i e s
(pgs. 25, 26). The t h i r d pl at oon s t ayed i n t h e v i c i n i t y
of t h e br i dge t o s ecur e t h e mor t ar whi l e t he r e s t of
B/4/3 moved sout h (pgs. 26-28). Before t h e company
moved s out h, ASKEW had a conver s at i on wi t h Amos WILLIAMS,
a member of t h e f i r s t pl at oon. WILLIAMS t o l d him t h a t t he
(ASKEW) 2 SUM APP T-260
CONFIDENTIAL
(ASKEW)
SUM. APPT-260
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
5. OTHERINFORMATION.
a. ASKEW had not di s cus s ed t h i s ope r a t i on wi t h anyone
i n B/4/3 s i nc e r e t ur ni ng from Vietnam (pg. 2 ) .
b. The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t mar i j uana w a s smoked
p r i o r t o oper at i ons and t h a t he had used it t o set up h i s
"nerve". However, he t e s t i f i e d t h a t mar i j uana w a s not
used on t h e 16-19 March oper at i on because B/ 4/ 3 wa s on
t he move ( pgs. 48, 4 9 ) .
c. H e never hear d of any i nc i de nt where members of
~ / 4 / 3 mol est ed women (pg. 5 0 ) .
(ASKEW)
4 SUM APPT-260
FOROFFICIALUSE ONLY
EXHIBITS
EXHI BI T
NUMBER DESCRI PTI ON NOTES
,--
PAGES
i ~ h ewi t nes s had I
I CV Card "Nine Rules"
never Seen.
4
MACV
Your
Card "The Enemy i n
Hands"
The wi t nes s had
never seen.
4
W i t i d e n t i f i e d
-
-
Black- and White photo ( t h e mort ar platoon.1 1 4
l W i t i d e n t l r i e d I
P-22
Blackand White photo
CPT MICHLES. 15
ID'Swere being
P-23 Black and White photo ( checked. 1 15 I
(ASKEW)
SUM APPT-260
FOROFFICIAL USE ONLY
FOI i OF F I CI AL USE ONLY
(The he a r i ng reconvened a t 1335 hour s , 2 8 Januar y
1970. )
COL WILSON: The he a r i ng w i l l come t o o r d e r .
RCDR : The f ol l owi ng named per s ons a r e p r e s e n t : COL
WILSON, LTC NOLL and MAJ THOMAS.
The ne xt wi t ne s s i s M r . Wal t er A. ASKEW.
(MR ASKEW was c a l l e d a s a wi t n e s s , was sworn, and
t e s t i f i e d a s f ol l ows : )
RCDR: " Pl e a s e s t a t e your name, oc c upa t i on, and r e s i de nc e .
A. Wal t er Adam ASKEW, 2611 Bo l l i n g Road, Sout he a s t ,
Washington D.C. l4y occupat i on i s s t u d e n t .
COL WILSON: M r . ASKEW, t h e Peer s I nqui r y was d i r e c t e d j o i n t l y
by t h e Se c r e t a r y of t h e Army and t h e Chi ef of S t a f f of t h e
Army f o r t h e pur pose of det er mi ni ng f a c t s and making recom-
mendat i ons concer ni ng t h e My Lai ( 4 ) i n c i d e n t o f March 1 6 , 1968.
I n conduct i ng h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n Gener al PEERS det er mi ned t h a t
i t was ne c e s s a r y t o have a compl et e i n s i g h t i n t o B/ 4/ 3
ground and a i r ope r a t i ons on 1 6 , 1 7 , 1 8 , and 19 March 1968.
He t h e r e f o r e appoi nt ed t h i s i n t e r v i e w t eam C , t o a s s i s t him
i n devel opi ng t h e ope r a t i ons conduct ed by B Company dur i nq
t h a t t i m e pe r i od. You may e xpe c t Gener al PEERS o r o t h e r
members of h i s boar d t o come i n h e r e and ask q u e s t i o n s . I t ' s
q u i t e p o s s i b l e a s he goes around t o h i s i n t e r v i e w t eams. I n
t h a t c a s e , i f t h e r e i s anybody t h a t you a r e concer ned a s t o
t h e i r i d e n t i t y , I ' l l t e l l you who t he y a r e .
Your t es t i mony w i l l be t aken under o a t h . A
ver bat i m t r a n s c r i p t w i l l be made. A t a p e r e c or di ng i s a l s o
bei ng made i n a d d i t i o n t o t h e r e p o r t e r ' s t r a n s c r i p t .
Al t hough t h e ge ne r a l c l a s s i f i c a t i o n o f t h e r e-
p o r t w i l l be c o n f i d e n t i a l , i t ' s p o s s i b l e t h a t t h e t est i mony
may become a ma t t e r o f p u b l i c knowledge.
Duri ng t h e i nt e r vi e w t h e boar d w i l l us e a
c hr onol ogi c a l sequence of que s t i oni ng. The f i r s t que s t i ons
(ASKEW) 1 APP T-260
w i l l be concer ned p r i ma r i l y wi t h t r a i n i n g which was r e c e i ve d
r i g h t b e f o r e o r a f t e r a r r i v a l i n t h e Republ i c of Vietnam. The
ne xt que s t i ons w i l l be concer ned wi t h t h e b r i e f i n g t h a t was
gi ve n j u s t be f or e t h e combat a s s a u l t down i n Pi n k v i l l e . The
ne xt seri es of que s t i ons w i l l be concer ned wi t h t h e ope r a t i ons
which w e r e conduct ed on 16, 1 7 , 1 8 , and 19 March. The f i n a l
que s t i ons w i l l be t o ask i f you have any knowledge of an i n-
v e s t i g a t i o n o r i n q u i r y which was e v e r conduct ed i n Vietnam on
t h i s ope r a t i on. Have you g o t any que s t i ons about what I ' v e
cover ed?
A. No que s t i ons .
COL WILSON: Have you di s c us s e d this o p e r a t i o n wi t h anyone
who was i n your u n i t s i n c e you' ve come back from Vietnam?
A. No, I h a v e n ' t .
& . What was your assi gnment on 16 March 1 9 6 8 ?
A. The o ~ e r a t i o n ?
Q Y e s , what was your dut y assi gnment ?
A. I was a r i f l e ma n.
Q. With what squad?
A. Thi r d squad.
Q Of what pl a t oon?
A. Thi r d Pl a t oon.
Q. The 3d Pl a t oon had t h r e e squads?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Some of t h e pl a t oons had pe r s onne l s hor t a ge s and
onl y had tiyo, b u t you had t h r e e s quads ?
A. Ri ght . W e w e r e s h o r t of men, b u t we al ways d i d
have t h r e e s quads .
(ASKEW) APP T-260
FOR OFFICIAL USE, ONLY
Q. Who w a s your squad l eader ?
A. BRADDOCK, Ser geant BRADDOCK.
Q e Pl at oon l eader ?
A. s er geant WILLIAMS.
Q * WILLIAMS?
A. No , I t hi nk he got k i l l e d . Ser geant WEBSTER.
LTC NOLL: WILLIAMS s t epped on a mine, d i d n ' t he?
A. Le t me see, Ser geant WILLIAMS got k i l l e d t h e same
day Ser geant WATSON got k i l l e d , sowe d i d n ' t r e a l l y have a
pl at oon l e a de r , but an a c t i ng pl at oon l e a de r , an E-5.
., COL WILSON: How about Ser geant MCCLOUD? D o you remember Ser-
geant MCCLOUD?
. A. Tha t ' s who itwa s .
(MR WALSH ent er ed t h e hear i ng. )
Q. M r . ASKEW, I d i d n ' t i nf or m you of what t h e i n t e r -
view team c ons i s t e d o f . There are t h r e e peopl e on t h i s i n t e r -
view team. Major THOMAS i s t h e r ecor der . H e mai nt ai ns a l l of
t he documents. The peopl e on t h e boar d are mysel f , Mr . WALSH
on my r i g h t who i s a c i v i l i a n a t t or ne y who has vol unt eer ed h i s
s e r vi c e s t o t h e Secr et ar y of t h e Army t o assist General PEERS.
and Li eut enant Col onel NOLL on my l e f t . The t h r e e of us have
t h e a ut hor i t y t o ques t i on you.
Now, Ser geant MCCLOUD w a s your pl at oon l eader ?
A. Ri ght .
Q - What wa s t h e di s pos i t i on of t h e machineguns i n
t h e pl at oon? Did you have a machinegunner a t t a c he d t o your
squad?
A. W e had two machineguns. One machinegun t o two
squads. W e had two machineguns i n each pl at oon and di vi ded
up i n d i f f e r e n t squads.
(ASKEW) 3 APP T-260
FOR OF F I C I AL USE ONLY
Q Di f f er ent squads a t d i f f e r e n t t i mes?
A. Right. I t a l l depended on where t he l i eut enant
wanted t he machinegun.
Q Exhi bi t M-2 i s a f acs i mi l e of a MACV,card e n t i t l e d
"Nine Rules." Have you ever seen t h a t car d?
A. No, I ' v e never seen t h i s .
Q. The Exhi bi t M- 3 i s e n t i t l e d , "The Enemy i n Your
Hands." Have you ever seen t h a t card?
A. No, I ' v e never seen t h i s card bef or e.
Q M r . ASKEW, what I ' d l i k e t o do now i s t o ask you
t o descr i be t he br i e f i ng you recei ved o r t he i nformat i on you
recei ved about t h i s time about t he a s s a ul t p r i o r t o going on
t he combat a s s a ul t . As much as you can remember about it. I
recogni ze it was 2 years ago. Then we ' l l t e l l you what we know
about t he t as k f or ce and what it di d t he f i r s t day and days
l a t e r and review from our st andpoi nt what we ' r e aware of . Be-
f or e we do t h a t we want t o g e t an i dea of t he t ype of br i ef i ng
you had, whether it was a squad l eader br i e f i ng, o r whether
your pl at oon l eader br i e f e d you, o r , i f you can remember back
t h i s f a r , what you were t o l d about t he oper at i on, p r i o r t o
gi vi ng you what we know about it. I f you would begi n and l e t
us know whatever you were t o l d and who t o l d you.
A. The oper at i on of March 1 6 , 17, 18?
Q - Yes. Now i s t her e any quest i on i n your mind about
which oper at i on t h i s was?
A. No. Well r e a l l y , when we' d go on an oper at i on,
say l i k e we' r e moving out t he next day and we' re going t o
Pi nkvi l l e, t h a t was our ar ea of oper at i on, our AO, we d i d n ' t
get a br i e f i ng, j u s t l i k e t hey s a i d we' r e moving out tomorrow
a t a c e r t a i n t i me, going t o Pi nkvi l l e. We d i d n ' t e ve r know
i f it was a sear ch and dest r oy o r what t ype of oper at i on it
was. A l l we knew i s we were moving out . goi ng t o Pi nkvi l l e.
Q Knew what time you were going and goi ng by he l i -
copt er and s o f or t h?
(ASKEW) 4 APP T-260
A. W e knew what t i m e w e w e r e goi ng t o l e a ve by chop-
pe r and what t i m e we were supposed t o be r eady t o move o u t .
Q L e t me ask you some s p e c i f i c que s t i ons on t h i s one,
t hen. Who b r i e f e d you? Was i t t h e squad l e a d e r o r pl a t oon
l e a de r ?
A. W e l l , t h e CO, he would b r i e f t h e l i e u t e n a n t and
the l i e u t e n a n t would t e l l - - t o l d t h e pl a t oon l e a d e r s t o break
i t down i n t o squads and t h e squad l e a d e r s would s a y , "We' re
moving o u t tomorrow t o Pi n k v i l l e , have your equi pment r eady. "
Tha t ' s a l l .
Q. Did he e v e r use a map?
A. The l i e u t e n a n t used a map, once he g o t i n t o t h e
a r e a . We d i d n ' t use a map.
Q. The squad l e a d e r used a map when he t o l d you where
you w e r e goi ng?
A. You mean show us?
Q. Y e s .
A. No.
Q. Did he have a map?
A. Ri ght , he had a map.
Q . Where di d t h e squad l e a d e r us ua l l y t e l l you you
w e r e moving out t h e next morni ng? Was t h i s i n a bunker o r out
i n t h e open o r anyt hi ng?
A. Wel l , h e ' d come out t o t h e bunker o r i f h e ' d c a t c h
i n d i v i d u a l s moving around t h e f i r e b a s e , f o r example l i k e ,
o r d i n a r i l y , l i k e once t hey g e t t h e word everybody knows we ' r e
.moving out .
Q W e l l , d i d he g e t t h e whole squad t o g e t h e r o r d i d
he do it i n d i v i d u a l l y ?
A. W e l l , l i k e , i f he go from bunker t o bunker t h e
whole squad would be t oge t he r l i k e br eaki ng t h e i r s down,
(ASKEW) 5 APP T-260
maybe f our , t h r e e men i n a bunker , come by and t e l l us we' r e
movi ng- out and he s e n t a squad l e a de r up t o t e l l us .
a Ther e' s no s p e c i f i c i n s t r u c t i o n s on t h i s oper at i on
which were any d i f f e r e n t from any ot he r oper at i on t h a t you
went on?
A. No,, not t o my knowledge.
Q. You don' t remember whet her it was des cr i bed as
s ear ch and c l e a r o r s ear ch and des t r oy?
A. W e l l , t h e way t he oper at i on went , it was l i k e
s ear ch and c l e a r .
a No, I mean a s f a r a s t h e b r i e f i n g goes.
R
L.r
A. Oh, no b r i e f i n g on i t . IU
w
Q Now, how many t i mes had you been i n t o t h e Pi nkvi l l e k)
a r e a bef or e?
A. Qu i t e a few t i mes , went i n January and February. i
(
Q. Did t h e f a c t t h a t you were goi ng i n t o Pi nkvi l l e
i mpress you as an oper at i on which would be any d i f f e r e n t from
any ot he r oper at i on you were goi nq t o run?
A. W e l l , l i k e t h a t was our oper at i on. W e l l , t h a t
was our f i r s t a r e a of oper at i on when we got t o Vietnam. We
d i d n ' t know anyt hi ng about Pi nkvi l l e , about Vietnam, r e a l l y
when we f i r s t got over t he r e because when we f i r s t got over
t he r e we t ook a few days oper at i on r i g h t around t h e f i r e base.
Then we went on a 6-day oper at i on. Af t er t h a t , our a r e a of
oper at i on was f o r Task Force Barker and t h a t was our a r e a of
oper at i on.
(2 Did t he Batangan Peni nsul a a r e a mean anyt hi ng t o
you, t h e Batangan Peni ns ul a, oper at i ons out t he r e ?
A, No.
Q- Did t h e squad l e a de r s say anyt hi ng about t h e
enemy s i t u a t i o n down t he r e ?
(ASKEW) 6 APP T- 260
A. Wel l , l i k e we knew bef or e t h i s oper at i on ever y t i m e
we went i n t h e r e we qot h i t pr e t t y bad. We al r eady knew t h a t .
Every t i me we went i n t o Pi nkvi l l e t h a t ' s what we expect ed.
Q.
So when you' r e goi ng i n t o t he Pi nkvi l l e a r e a you
know what t o t hi nk? You know what ' s coming up?
A. Y e s .
Q
Were t h e r e any s p e c i a l i n s t r u c t i o n s concer ni ng
your squad, t h a t your squad was supposed t o do t h a t t h e rest
of t h e pl at oon was n' t supposed t o do, o r t h e pl at oon was
supposed t o l and and move a l l t oqet her ?
A. Moved out t oge t he r . We had no s p e c i a l i n s t r u c t i o n s .
Q Di dn' t have any s p e c i a l mi ssi on o r anyt hi ng?
Okay. L e t ' s t a ke t h e oper at i on i t s e l f now. Let me ask a
coupl e of ques t i ons bef or e we s t a r t on t h e map or i e nt a t i on.
Do you remember which l i f t you were i n ? You were wi t h t h e
f i r s t group of he l i c opt e r s t h a t went out o r t h e second group?
A. Second l i f t .
Q Second l i f t ?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you not i c e whet her t h e r e was any f i r i n g o r not
when you l anded?
A. There was f i r i n g because t h e f i r s t l i f t t h a t went
i n t h e r e got h i t p r e t t y bad s o when we g o t i n we got s ni pe r
f i r e , t oo.
Where was t h i s f i r e coming from?
The vi l l a ge .
Q Did you see any gunshi ps?
A. No.
(ASKEW) APP T-260
Q I am goi ng t o gi ve you t h e concent and what ba s i c -
a l l y happened from t h e s t a n d p o i n t of t h e t a s k f o r c e . When I
gi ve you t h i s M r . WALSH w i l l t a k e t h e phot oqr aph and gi ve you
a more d e t a i l e d o r i e n t a t i o n .
(The wi t ne s s was gi ve n an o r i e n t a t i o n on Ex h i b i t
MAP-4 and a e r i a l phot o Exhi bi t P-168.)
Do you r e c a l l when you h i t t h e l a ndi nq zone and
your pl a t oon moved o u t what t h e o r d e r of march was i n t h e com-
pany? Was t h e 3d Pl at oon t h e f i r s t pl a t oon t o move o u t o r
was t h e 2d Pl a t oon t h e f i r s t pl a t oon t o move o u t ?
A. 2d Pl at oon. Th a t ' s when Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN g o t
k i l l e d . Li ke I s a y , we had f i r e coming from t h e v i l l a g e .
Af t e r we came i n , Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN a l r e a dy had g o t k i l l e d .
W e w e r e h e l d up f o r maybe 15 o r 20 mi nut es. W e h i t a h o l e and
we d i d n ' t see t hem, b u t we w e r e f i r i n g i n t o t h e v i l l a g e . Af t e r
t h a t w e s t a y e d ar ound t h a t v i l l a g e f o r maybe a n hour , a s I
r e c a l l . Then when we moved o u t , I t h i n k 3d Pl a t oon moved o u t
f i r s t .
Q From t h e l a ndi ng zone, you mean, o r from t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. The l a ndi ng zone, l i k e I s a y , t h e l a ndi ng zone i s
r i g h t by t h e v i l l a g e . Where Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN g o t k i l l e d .
He g o t k i l l e d i n a r i c e paddy. Th a t ' s where w e jumped o u t of
the chopper s , i n t h e ri ce paddy, coming i n on t h e second l i f t .
Q How f a r from t h e l a ndi nq zone, from where you
l anded, was Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN k i l l e d ?
A. About 2 5 f e e t . I n a cemet er y. H e was goi ng t hr ough
a cemet er y. The cemet ery was r i g h t o f f t h e r i c e paddy goi ng
up a h i l l . And we g o t o f f r i g h t i n t h e r i c e paddy, g o t a l l
w e t because we w e r e f i r i n g a t somebody. They s ay it was com-
i n g from Ch a r l i e Company a s t he y w e r e coming from t h e v i l l a g e .
But we d i d n ' t know.
Q. Thi s f i r i n g , about how f a r away do you t h i n k i t
was?
A. W e l l , a t t h e pr ope r t i m e and t h e s i t u a t i o n it l ooks
l i k e it coul d have been c l o s e and t h e n a f t e r you t h i n k about
it it coul d have been f a r .
(ASKEW) 8
APP T-260
Q Could you s e e t he v i l l a g e where t he f i r i n g was
coming from?
A. We saw t he v i l l a g e , but we d i d n ' t a c t ua l l y s e e
any f i r e . W e hear d f i r e and it sounded p r e t t y c l os e . We got
off, h i t the r i c e paddi es, f u l l oE wat er . W e t r i e d t o move
out of t h e r i c e paddi es and we h i t a b i g hol e about 25 met er s
from t he v i l l a g e . I r e c a l l t he f i r e from t h e v i l l a g e because
we was n' t r e a l l y i n a f i r e f i g h t because t hey was a l l pinned-
down. The f i r e was coming from Char l i e Company.
Q Di d. your whole pl at oon open f i r e on t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. . No, maybe h a l f of them, because I don' t t hi nk t h e
t h i r d l i f t had got i n .
Q There wer en' t but two. I d o n ' t t hi nk t h e r e were
but two l i f t s i n . Usual l y got bot h companies i n wi t h two
l i f t s .
A. I know l i k e our pl at oon, about h a l f of them were
f i r i n g .
Q When you l e f t t he l andi ng zone and moved nor t h,
do you r e c a l l cr os s i ng a f a i r l y good t r a i l ?
A. Ri ght .
Q Do you remember a ga t e over t he r oad?
A. Ri ght .
B Now how f a r were you from t h a t g a t e when Li eut en-
a n t COCHRAN was k i l l e d ?
A. From where Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d ?
Q. Y e s . About how f a r were you from t h e gat e?
A. About 200 met er s o r more.
Q . Which s i d e of t h e road were you on when he was
k i l l e d ?
(ASKEW) 9
APP T-260
A. On t he r i g h t s i d e of t he r oad.
Q. And you j u s t he l d up f o r a whi l e. Do you remember
t h e he l i c opt e r coming i n and pi cki ng up t h e c a s u a l t i e s ?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you remember t h e he l i c opt e r t h a t came i n f i r s t ?
Was it a medevac chopper? You had two groups of c a s u a l t i e s .
You had COCHRAN and some wounded, and i n about 40 mi nut es you
had some more. Do you remember e i t h e r one of t he s e he l i c opt e r s
coming i n bei ng a command and c ont r ol s h i p from Col onel BARKER' S
headquar t er s ?
A. Command and c ont r ol s hi p?
Q. Command and c ont r ol s hi p. Did you s e e Col onel ! S
BARKER o u t t he r e ? ' t
A. I never saw Col onel BARKER.
61
Q Did you s e e t h e c a s u a l t i e s bei ng evacuat ed?
A. I saw one chopper come o u t , b u t I d i d n ' t s e e who
was on t h e chopper. I wasn' t i n a s i t u a t i o n t o s e e who was on
t he chopper. I wa s n' t t h a t c l os e when t h e chopper came i n .
Q - Okay, what di d you a l l do t he r e s t of t h e day?
A. W e l l , we moved o u t . The 1st Pl at oon went acr os s
t h i s br i dge. W e s t ayed acr os s t h e br i dge , and we he l d up f o r
t he ni ght t he r e . The next morning 1st Pl at oon came back
acr os s .
Q Do you remember when C Company came i n ? Do you
remember when you a l l l i nked up wi t h C Company?
A. We l i nked up wi t h C Company, I t hi nk it was t he
second l i f t .
n
\L N o , you remember you said you l aaqer ed wi t h them.
I ' m not t a l ki ng about t h e 1st Pl at oon now.
A. You mean t he whole companv?
(ASKEW) 10 APP T-260
Q-
When B Company l i nke d up wi t h C Company?
A. W e d i d n ' t a c t u a l l y , we l l , l i k e we saw them, b u t
t hey was l i k e a c r os s t h e r oad.
Q. C Company was?
A. Ri ght . We d i d n ' t act ual l y- - oh, y e s , we d i d .
Q Y e s , y o u ' r e t hi nki ng about t h e pl at oon?
A. Y e s , w e d i d , r i g h t i n t h e ri ce paddy.
Q -
Do you remember what t i me you a l l - -
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) Laagered?
Q
Y e s , wi t h C Com~any. Do you remember what t i m e
t hey came i n ?
A.
They came i n about 4 : 3 0 o r 5 , because t hey d i d n ' t
have enough t i m e t o d i g f oxhol es . I t g o t dar k.
Q. And you had al r eady been t h e r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q Okay, now. Do you r e c a l l whet her C Company had
some ARVN s o l d i e r s o r Nat i onal Po l i c e wi t h them?
A. No, becaus e, l i k e , I d i d n ' t see t h e CP gr oup.
The onl y guys I saw were s e t t i n g up t h e i r p o s i t i o n s .
Q You d i d n ' t see t h e whole company, t he n? You j u s t
saw p a r t s of i t ?
A. Ri ght .
I d i d n ' t see t h e whole company a s a whol e.
Q.
Did you see any ARVN o r Nat i onal Po l i c e t h e r e
t h a t day?
A. What about i n t e r p r e t e r s ?
Q Did you see i n t e r p r e t e r s ?
(ASKEW) 11
APP T-260
A. There were a coupl e of interpreters.
& Did t hey come i n wi t h C Company o r were t hey wi t h
B Company?
A. Each company had an i n t e r p r e t e r .
Q How many di d you s e e t h a t day?
A. Both companies ?
Q Yes.
A. Qu i t e a few because l i k e we got more i nt e r pr e t e r s - -
I guess t he r e were seven o r e i g h t .
(1 They had on uni forms?
A. Y e s .
Q Did you s e e any Nat i onal Pol i ce? Do you recog-
ni z e anybody i n t h a t phot ograph ( Exhi bi t P-18) and a l s o t h a t
ar ea?
A. I r ecogni ze t h a t guy.
Q Who i s t h a t ?
A. HUFFMAN.
Q P-18 shows HUFFMAN. He' s t h e onl y U.S. t ype t he r e .
A. H e ' s guar di ng t h e pr i s one r s , I remember t h a t .
Q D o you r ecogni ze any of t hes e peopl e, t he s e Vi et -
namese?
A. W e l l t he s e were t he peopl e t h a t he was guar di ng.
Q o Where di d t hey come from?
A. Out of t h e v i l l a g e , out of t h e v i l l a g e t hat - - I
b e t w e pi cked them up i n t he v i l l a g e coming t hr ough t h i s ar ea.
FOR OF' FI CI AL USE ONLY
(2 I n o t h e r words, t he s e peopl e were pi cked up by B
Company ?
A. Yes.
Q Do you r ecogni ze t h i s a r e a he r e ?
A. Yes, t h i s i s where we met up wi t h Char l i e Company.
Q Why do you r ecogni ze t h a t ar ea?
A. Ter r ai n f e a t ur e s .
Q Did you s e e t hes e peopl e a t t h e t i me you l i nked
up wi t h Char l i e Company? Was t h a t t he f i r s t t i me you saw
them?
A. Come t o t hi nk of it I bel i eve i t was.
Q What I was goi ng t o ask you i s had you s een them
bef or e?
A. Bef or e we l i nked up wi t h Char l i e Company, t o t e l l
you t he t r u t h I r e a l l y c a n ' t remember now, i f we al r eady had
them out t he r e of i f Char l i e Company br ought them out . I c a n ' t
remember now.
Q Thi s i s what we' r e t r y i n g t o f i nd o u t , i f t hey
came out t he r e wi t h C Company o r not .
A. But I t hi nk B Company--because l i k e if Char l i e
Company had any we woul dn' t guard them.
Q. HUFFMAN wouldn ' t,be t h e i r guar d?
A. No, it would be someone from Char l i e Company.
& Unless t h e r e was a pr ovi s i on f o r one of t h e com-
pani es t o evacuat e t he VC s us pect s . Wel l , do you r ecogni ze
t h i s pi ece of t e r r a i n her e as bei ng anyt hi ng s p e c i f i c ?
A. The onl y t hi ng I remember about t h i s t e r r a i n
f e a t ur e i s where we l aaqer ed f o r t he ni ght .
13
APP T-260
Q You remember t h a t ?
A. Ri ght .
0
Do you know what happened t o t hes e. peopl e? Did
you s e e them?
A. A t ni ght we t i e d them up.
Q
They s t ayed t h e r e t h a t ni ght ?
A. Y e s .
(2
Did you s e e them t h e r e t he next morning?
A.
me n w e f i r s t g o t up, but t hen a f t e r t h a t I t hi nk
a chopper came and got them.
Q The next day?
A. The next day.
They d i d n ' t go al ong wi t h u s , not
t oo f a r anyway.
Q
Do you r ecogni ze anyt hi ng i n t h i s phot ogr aph,
Exhi bi t P-19?
A. Nothing t h a t I can remember.
Do you r ecogni ze anyt hi ng i n P-20?
A. Tha t ' s t he mor t ar pl at oon. We a r e n ' t normal l y
t oo cl os e.
Q. They' r e peopl e from t he mor t ar pl at oon. You don' t
r ecogni ze t h a t a r e a o r t h a t hoot ch o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t ?
A. No.
Q
How about P- 21, t h a t man i n uni form?
A. H e ' s i n t h e 1st Pl at oon,
Q-
You t hi nk t h i s man on t h e l e f t i s i n 1st Pl at oon?
(ASKEW) 1 4
APP T-260
A. I t h i n k s o.
Q I ' l l show you a not he r p i c t u r e of hi m, P-22.
A. I t h i n k he was a c a p t a i n and h e was--I know he
was an o f f i c e r , b u t l i k e he had somet hi ng t o do wi t h MACV.
Q * 'Was he an i n t e l l i g e n c e o f f i c e r ?
A. Y e s , t h a t ' s what he was.
Q. H e w a s an i n t e r r o g a t o r ?
A. Y e s , h e was an i n t e r r o g a t o r .
Q- Do you r ecogni ze t h i s man wi t h him?
A. Th a t ' s t h e man who was wi t h him.
Q - A Vi et namese i n t e r r o g a t o r ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. I n t e r p r e t e r .
A. Ri ght , I remember him.
Q = Did you by any chance see t h i s o l d man?
A. No.
Q- Man on t h e l e f t is--
A. ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) Capt ai n MICHLES .
Q. Do you r e c ogni z e any of t h e Vi et namese i n t h i s
p i c t u r e ?
A. I r e c ogni z e o l d "papa s a n. " I t h i n k I remember
t h a t s i t u a t i o n .
Q. What was goi ng on t h e r e , do you r e c a l l (P-23)?
A. I t h i n k t h e y w a s checki ng t h e I D ' S .
APP T-260
Q Where was t h i s ?
A. Pi nkvi l l e.
Q We know it was i n t h a t ar ea.
A. You want t o know t he speci f i c- -
Q .
( I nt er pos i ng) We' re t r yi ng t o f i nd out i f t h i s was
bef or e you got t o t he l aager ar ea o r a f t e r you got t o t he l aager
ar ea or--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) I t would have t o be bef or e.
Q I t was bef or e? Do you recognize--looks l i k e an
i nt er pr et er - - t hi s Vietnamese her e?
A. Right.
Q.
Was he wi t h your uni t ?
A. H e wasn' t . I t hi nk he came al ong with--
Q
( I nt er posi ng) The same one t h a t was wi t h t he i n-
t e l l i ge nc e o f f i c e r t h a t you poi nt ed out . This man i n t he cen-
t e r , t h i s Vietnamese i n t he cent er l ooki ng towards t he camera,
you poi nt ed t o him. Did you ever s e e him?
A. I recogni ze h i m.
Q Anything i n pa r t i c ul a r ?
A. No, j us t h i s f ace looks f ami l i ar .
Q- This i s P-66. Have you ever seen t h i s man on t he
extreme l e f t ?
A. This one her e?
B. Yes.
A. No.
Q The o f f i c e r which you i de nt i f i e d i n t hose two
photographs i s Li eut enant J OHNSON and i t was h i s i nt e r pr e t e r
1 6
APP T-260
wi t h him. H i s i n t e r p r e t e r wa s named MINH, Ser geant MINH.
When C Company came i n , I was j u s t t r y i n g t o det er mi ne i f
you had much c ont a c t wi t h them o r i f you saw whet her t hey
came i n wi t h any Vietnamese o r ARVN o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t ?
A. NO, because we was al r eady s e t up i n p o s i t i o n and
l i k e , when t hey came i n , onl y guys we saw were t h e ones t h a t
were s e t t i n g i n a pos i t i on cl os e by our pos i t i on. Li ke I s ay,
I d i d n ' t s e e t he CP group come i n . I f t hey had any i n t e r -
p r e t e r s t hey would be i n t h e CP group.
Q. A l l r i g h t , you s t ayed t h e r e t h a t ni ght . D i d any
he l i c opt e r s come i n , br i ng you any h o t r a t i o n s o r anyt hi ng
l i k e t h a t ?
A. We had a hot meal.
Q. You had a hot meal ?
A. Y e s .
Q Did t hey br i ng anybody i n w i t h them? Do you
remember s eei ng t h i s Li eut enant JOHNSON o u t t he r e ?
A. I d o n ' t know how he came o u t t he r e . I d i d n ' t
s e e him g e t o f f t he chopper.
Q Well he coul d have come i n any t i me dur i ng t h e
day.
A. NO, I di di n' t s e e him t h a t day.
Q You d i d n ' t s e e t h a t i n t e r p r e t e r wi t h him?
A. I be l i e ve it was t he next day when I saw him.
Q. Did you s e e anybody t h a t you d i d n ' t know come i n
t h a t day bef or e you l i nke d up wi t h C Company?
A. It was e i t h e r Li eut enant JOHNSON o r t h e i nt e r pr e -
t e r . They e i t h e r came i n t he day we g o t w i t h Char l i e Company
o r t h e next day. They pos s i bl y came i n t h e same flay wi t h
Char l i e Company.
APP T-260
Q- You s t a ye d around t h i s a r e a up t h e r e most of t h e
day, t hen l aager ed t he r e t h a t ni qht . Was t h i s r i g h t out s i de
of t he l i t t l e v i l l a g e ?
A. Ri ght . Out si de t h e v i l l a g e .
Q- Were t h e r e any c a s u a l t i e s t h a t day? Were t h e r e
Vietnamese c a s u a l t i e s i n t h i s ar ea? Anybody g e t wounded,
from a Vietnamese s t andpoi nt ?
A. W e l l , t he onl y one I know was an ol d "papa san"
got h i t i n t h e l e gs .
Q a What happened t o him?
A. I t hi nk we l e f t him t he r e .
Q- You mean t he pl at oon l e f t him t he r e ?
A. W e moved out , t h e whole company moved out .
Q. Where wa s he wounded, on t h e l andi ng zone or--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Ri ght . See, when I t o l d you we
came of f t h e l andi ng zone t o t h e r i c e paddi es we hear d f i r e .
We fi red i n t o t h e v i l l a g e and "papa s an" got h i t .
Q= I n t h e v i l l a g e ?
Y e s .
Did you see him?
Y e s .
How f a r w a s he?
When we w a s f i r i n g ?
No, when you s a w him.
I walked up t o him.
CONFIDENTIAL
APPT-260
LTC NOLL: When you were l i f t e d i n t o t he a r e a di d t h e pl at oon
come i n as a u n i t o r was it s p l i t between t h e f i r s t and second
l i f t s ?
A. I t was s p l i t , but i t wa s n' t s p l i t i n a l a r ge amount.
I t was s p l i t i n a smal l amount.
Q . Fi ve of your pl at oon al r eady on t he ground when
your group came i n ?
A. Ri ght , but not t h a t many.
Q
Do you know what ot her ' pl at oon came i n wi t h you?
I n ot he r words, I ' m s ur e what was l e f t of your pl at oon di dn' t
f i l l up t hos e ni ne choppers.
A. No, t h e 2d Pl at oon. No, i t had t o be 1st Pl at oon
because t he 2d Pl at oon was al r eady l i f t e d i n .
Q Did t h e 1st Pl at oon move out of t h e LZ behi nd you?
A. No, t hey moved o u t bef or e us.
Q The 2d Pl at oon moved out f i r s t ?
A. No, 2d Pl at oon, t hey were t h e onl y ones t h a t had
t h e c a s u a l t i e s , s o t hey d i d n ' t move out f i r s t .
Q Well t hey d i d n ' t g e t t h e c a s u a l t i e s u n t i l t hey
got away from t he LZ. We ' r e j u s t t r y i n g t o f i n d out how t hey
moved t o a d i f f e r e n t l oc a t i on.
A. Are you t a l k i n g about--
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) I ' m t a l k i n g about g e t t i n g o u t of t he
LZ. Only g e t t i n g away from t h e LZ.
A. Get t i ng away from t he LZ, who moved out f i r s t ?
Q Y e s .
A. 2d Pl at oon.
Q. Then what pl at oon fol l owed them?
A. 3d Pl at oon.
COL WILSON: A l l r i g h t . You s t ayed t h e r e over ni ght ; not hi ng
e ve nt f ul happened and s t a r t e d moving out t h e next morning. Do
you know what--whether it w a s t h e 1st Pl at oon ahead of you o r
was your pl at oon i n t he f r o n t as you moved t owards t he br i dge?
A. W e moved toward t h e br i dge f i r s t .
Q A s you moved down t he r oad, do you remember when
you passed under t h a t t hi ng over t h e r oad?
A. Y e s .
Q. Do you remember it bei ng t he r e ? Had you passed
under i t when t h e f i r i n g s t a r t e d on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t he
r i v e r ?
A. Y e s , because, l i k e , when t h e f i r i n g s t a r t e d we
jumped i n t o a bui l di ng and t h a t was on t h e o t h e r s i de .
Q Did you hear f i r i n g goi ng on over t he r e ?
A. Ri ght , but we d i d n ' t know what it was a l l about .
Q How l ong di d you h a l t t h e r e bef or e you moved out ?
A. About 20 o r 30 mi nut es.
Q And t hen di d t he f i r e seem t o t a p e r of f o. r s t o p o r
di d it cont i nue?
A. I guess it went on f o r about 5 o r 10 mi nut es.
Q - Did you s e e any gunshi ps come i n t h a t day?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know how many?
A. Two.
Q. Did you a l l s t a r t moving be f or e o r a f t e r t he
gunshi ps came i n ?
21 APP T-260
A. Af t er t he gunships. Well we moved up a l i t t l e b i t
and t hen we stopped because t he 1st Pl at oon was f i r i n g , I t hi nk.
One buddy of mine i n t he 1st Platoon s a i d t he gunshi ps were
going t o h i t them.
Q You mean t he gunships came i n cl os e?
A. Yes.
Q. Who t o l d you t h a t ?
A. Amos WI LLI AMS.
Q= WILLIAMS?
A. Yes.
MR WALSH: Where does he l i v e now?
A. Fl or i da.
Q- Do you have h i s address?
A. I have i t , but i t ' s a t home.
Q We ' ve had a l i t t l e d i f f i c u l t y l ocat i ng var i ous
people.
A. - ( I nt er posi ng) I have a few addresses.
Q It would be very he l pf ul .
A. One l i v e s i n Baltimore.
COL WILSON: I want you t o cont act t he wi t ness s e c t i on bef or e
you go, f i nd out which addresses you have and s e e i f we' ve got
them.
You moved on a f t e r t he gunships stopped t he i r
f i r i n g o r made t h e i r f i r i n g passes?
A. Yes.
(ASKEW) 22
APP T-260
Q When you got down t he r e t o t he br i dge and crossed
t he br i dge, was TAYLOR al ready evacuat ed o r was he s t i l l t her e?
A. TAYLOR, yes. TAYLOR was t he guy who l ost h i s t oes .
Aft er t he gunshi ps, I t hi nk was evacuat ed. .
Q Did you s ee a he l i c opt e r come i n and pi ck him up?
A. Yes, I saw t h a t .
Now, he was gone when you got t he r e , is t h a t r i ght ?
TAYLOR?
Yes.
No.
Q He was s t i l l t her e?
A. Like a f t e r t he gunships--
Q . ( I nt er pos i ng) You mean a f t e r you crossed t h e br i dge,
TAYLOR was s t i l l t her e?
A. Yes, he was t her e.
I
Q. He was t her e?
A. Yes.
Q . Was t he r e s t i l l any f i r i n g going on when you
crossed t he br i dge? Did you s e e any bodi es?
A. No bodi es. We d i d n ' t r e a l l y know what it was a l l
about. It was 1st Platoon t h a t was f i r i n g . We d i d n ' t s ee
any dead bodi es.
Q. When you cr ossed t he br i dge and got on t he ot he r
s i de of t he r i v e r , di d you a l l h a l t agai n o r di d you keep moving?
A. I t hi nk we came back and s e t up f o r t he ni ght
al ongsi de t he vi l l a ge . I remember l i k e , myself and PARKER,
APP T-260
w e s e t a t r i p f l a r e on t he br i dge. I remember we s t ayed c l os e
by t he br i dge t h a t ni ght .
Q Now, t he company cr os s ed t h e br i dge. Do you remem-
be r s eei ng a h e l i c o p t e r come i n , br i ngi ng some s uppl i e s ?
A. Not a t t h a t p a r t i c u l a r t i me. You' re t a l k i n g about
t he day t h a t TAYLOR st epped on t h e mine? What happened t he r e
is t h a t t he 1st Pl at oon cr os s ed t h e br i dge , and I t hi nk l i k e
t hey s t ayed acr os s t he br i dge. We s t ayed on t he o t h e r s i d e of
t he br i dge. The next morning t hey came back acr os s and t hen
we went back acr os s t h e br i dge.
I
Q Did you s e e a he l i c opt e r come i n a f t e r t he f i r i n g
was over , a f t e r you got on t he ot he r s i d e of t he r i v e r ?
A. Ri ght .
Q That br ought i n some s uppl i e s o r anyt hi ng l i k e
t h a t , o r br ought i n maybe a coupl e of peopl e?
A. It br ought i n a phot ogr apher .
Q Did he have a MACV i n s i g n i a on?
A. I t hi nk s o. He was from t h a t paper . .
Q St a r s and St r i pe s ?
A. St a r s and S t r i p e s .
Q- D o you know what t i me he came i n ?
A. I be l i e ve i t was about 1 o r 2 i n t he eveni ng
( af t er noon) ,
( 2 Did you t a l k t o him?
A. I t hi nk he was wi t h 1st Pl at oon.
Q And you d i d n ' t have a chance t o talk--how d i d
you know he was a phot ogr apher ?
A. Word got around.
(ASKEW) 2 4
APP T-260
a* Did he have on a uni form?
A. W e l l he had on jungle--
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) J ungl e o u t f i t ? Had a weapon wi t h
him? What ki nd of a hel met was he wear i ng, headgear ?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk i t was a s t e e l pot .
Q. A s o f t cap of some ki nd? Is t h e r e anyt hi ng e l s e
t h a t coul d be i d e n t i f i e d ? Did he have on c r e s t s ? Was he
weari ng " U. S. Army"? Did he have a gr ade r a t i n g , o r name t ag?
A. I t hi nk he was a s p e c i a l i s t f i v e . I don' t know
h i s name.
Q - Don' t remember h i s name?
A. A s i g n a l pat ch. A l l I know i s he was a photo-
gr apher . I s a w him when he g o t o f f t h e chopper. I d i d n ' t
know who he wa s . He had t h i s camera.
Q What ki nd of camera d i d he have, 35 mi l l i me t e r
o r di d he have a b i g speed gr aphi c?
A. I c a n ' t remember t h e s i z e . I knew it was a camera.
Q. Did you s e e anybody e l s e wi t h a camera? Did you
have one?
A. NO, onl y t h e guys i n t h e company had a l i t t l e "104. "
Q. Did you know anybody t h a t had one t h a t day?
A. Amos WILLIAMS, he always c a r r i e d one.
Q. Did anybody come i n wi t h t h a t phot ogr apher ?
A. I know w a t e r came i n wi t h t h e chopper, and our XO
came i n , Li eut enant MUNDY.
0
Q Li eut enant MUNDY came i n wi t h t h e phot ogr apher ?
A. I t hi nk s o because l i k e Capt ai n MICHLES w a s goi ng
on R&R o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t . I know he s t a ye d one day o u t
t her e.
Q who?
A. Li eut enant MUNDY.
Q A l l r i g h t . That chopper came i n and brought t he
var i ous t hi ngs : t he XO , and t he phot ographer, and t he wat er.
Did t hey br i ng any demol i t i on out t her e? D i d you s e e any
demol i t i on?
A. A t t h i s pa r t i c ul a r time?
Q. Yes.
A. They brought some mort ar f o r t he mort ar pl at oon.
Q. Brought some what?
A. Some mort ar rounds.
Q. A l l r i g h t . The company moved sout h t h a t day. Now
it could be t h a t you s t ayed up t he r e , I ' m not sayi ng you di dn' t .
But t he company moved sout h and t hey went a l l t he way down t o
t he end of--crossed t he br i dge and went a l l t he way down t o the
t i p down t her e.
A. We s t ayed t he r e q u i t e a whi l e.
Q. Did you s t a y t he r e a l l day t h a t day?
A. Not a l l day, but like--because l i k e a f t e r a whi l e
t he photographer came, he l e f t and we were st i l l --when t he
chopper came i n we st ayed and 1st Pl at oon moved out .
Q. You were wi t h weapons pl at oon?
A. Right .
Q
And you saw t he mort ar go i n t o pos i t i on over her e?
A. Right.
Q. And you s t ayed t her e wi t h t he mort ar?
A. Secure t h e mort ar.
APP T-260
Q. ?'he w l l o l c pl at oon st ayed tllc:re'?
A. 3d Pl at oon. 1st Pl at oon moved out .
Q Okay, t he company went on s out h, now from what we
under st and t h e phot ogr apher went wi t h t he company. Did t h e
phot ographer s t a y t he r e wi t h you a l l or--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) No, he went wi t h t h e 1st Pl at oon,
went wi t h t he 1st Pl at oon.
8 St ayed wi t h t h e 1st Pl at oon?
A. Ri ght , because we d i d n ' t g e t anybody t o t a ke pi c-
t ur e s i n our pl at oon.
Q The. company came back and e s t a bl i s he d a , l aager
pos i t i on he r e and you e s t a bl i s he d an ambush up he r e ?
A. Ri ght .
Q - Did a he l i c opt e r come i n t h e r e t h a t eveni ng?
A. Y e s .
Q How di d t h e phot ogr apher g e t back t o your l oca-
t i o n ?
A. I t hi nk he d i d n ' t come back t o our pos i t i on. I
t hi nk t hey pi cked him up.
Q. Brought him t o t he company?
A. Ri ght .
Q Did t he he l i c opt e r come i n t o your l oc a t i on t h a t
ni ght ?
A. No, t he onl y chopper t h a t came i n t o our l oc a t i on
was when t hey got of f and t h e wat er got o f f .
Q. That was t h a t day, e a r l i e r t h a t day? You d i d n ' t
g e t any r a t i ons t h a t ni ght from t h e chopper?
APP T-260
A. No, w e a l r e a dy had r a t i o n s .
B Did you s e e any smoke e i t h e r ove r a c r o s s t h e r i v e r
t o t h e e a s t o r down t o your s out h where t h o s e v i l l a g e s a r e ?
A. That was 1st Pl a t oon. They were doi ng a t h i n g
down t h e r e .
Q. They w e r e what ?
A. They w e r e f i r i n g .
Q - You coul d h e a r f i r i n g goi ng on down t h e r e ?
; A. Y e s . They were doi ng a t h i n g , b u t I d o n ' t know
' where i t was.
B Now, i t was t h e 1st and t h e 2nd Pl a t oon?
A. Ri ght .
Q And t h e company he a dqua r t e r s gr oup?
A. Y e s . The 3d and t h e weapons pl at oon- -
Q = ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) U p h e r e by t h e b r i d g e .
A. Ri ght .
Q Could you s e e smoke coming up from t h e c o a s t ?
A. Y e s , w e saw smoke.
Q. How about ove r a c r o s s t h e r i v e r h e r e t o t h e wes t ?
Did you see any smoke ove r i n t h i s a r e a ?
A. There was smoke a l l ar ound t h e whol e t h i n g .
Q. And you he a r d f i r i n g ove r h e r e , down i n B Company
a r e a ?
A. W e l l , 1st and 2d Pl a t oons h a d n ' t even moved out
of t h e a r e a ?
(ASKEW) APP T-260
MR WALSH: When you got acr os s t h e br i dge and l i nke d up wi t h
1st Pl at oon, di d you t a ke a br eak i n t he r e and have a chance
t o t a l k t o peopl e or--
A. ( ~ n t e r p o s i n g )I t hi nk t hey came back t he next
morning.
Q No, po. I ' m t a l ki ng about t h e second day. Across
t he br i dge t he f i r s t t i me a f t e r TAYLOR g o t wounded, di d t h e
company t ake a br eak and g e t a chance t o t a l k t o any peopl e
from t he 1st Pl at oon?
A. Yeah. I saw them bef or e t he ( i na udi bl e ).
Q. - Did t hey t e l l you about t h e i r oper at i ons t h e day
bef or e?
A. Wel l , t hey would say when t hey went acr os s t he
br i dge t h e r e were no mines on t he br i dge, ' but when t hey came
back t h e r e wer e, l i k e , f i v e mines on t h e br i dge.
Q Did t hey say t hey had k i l l e d a l o t of VC t he day
bef or e over t he r e ?
A. Li ke you s a i d , t hey had k i l l e d some.
Q. They k i l l e d a l o t of peopl e anyway over t he r e . I
know you we r e n' t t h e r e , I j u s t want t o know what you hear d
when you went over t he r e . What can you remember about t h a t ?
A. Well I remember l i k e , I was t a l k i n g t o Amos, he
t o l d me t h a t when t hey went acr os s t he br i dge t h e r e was no
mines o r not hi ng, but he s a i d when he came back t h e r e was a
l o t of mines. TAYLOR got h i t . They k i l l e d some peopl e.
Q. Are you t a l ki ng about r i g h t a f t e r TAYLOR g o t
wounded o r t he day bef or e when t hey went out ? .
A. Af t e r TAYLOR got wounded, I t hi nk it was.
\
Q He di dn ' t say anyt hi ng about t h e day be f or e , when
t hey f i r s t moved i n t o t he v i l l a g e ?
A. I t hi nk a l o t of peopl e g o t k i l l e d .
(ASKEW) 2 9
APP T-260
Q Thi s i s not a s u r p r i s e t o us , a s you can i magi ne.
I ' d l i k e t o know what you hear d.
A. Wel l , l i k e I say about 60 peopl e got k i l l e d .
Q. About 60?
A. Yes.
Q Do you remember i f you hear d t h a t number 60 a t
t h a t t i me o r some ot he r t i me?
A. A t t h a t t i me.
Q Did t hey e xpl a i n how t hey had got t e n k i l l e d ?
A. TNT .
Q * TNT most l y?
A. Machineguns.
Q Machinegun most l y o r some of bot h?
A. A l l ki nds , gr enades, TNT, C4 .
Q Can you t e l l me anyt hi ng about what t he men' s at -
t i t u d e s were about i t ? Did t h i s bot her them a t a l l o r was
t h i s what t h e i r or der s were t o do and d i d a good job of i t ?
A. I guess i t was or de r s , l i k e ever y t i me we do some-
t hi ng we g e t or de r s .
Q But none of t he men were t e l l i n g you t h i s i n t he
way t h a t t hey f e l t badl y about it.
A. No, none of them f e l t bad about it.
Q Then a f t e r TAYLOR got ki l l ed- - I ' m s o r r y , TAYLOR
h i t t he mine and t he r e was a l l t he f i r i n g t hen, d i d t hey g e t
any more peopl e t hen o r were t hey a l l gone from t h e day be-
f or e .
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk t hey got any t h a t I can remember t he
day t h a t TAYLOR got k i l l e d .
(ASKEW) 30
APP T-260
Q
A l l r i g h t now, a f t e r you s e t up t h e r e around t he
br i dge and t he ot he r pl at oons moved o u t , wer en' t you a l i t t l e
cur i ous t o go l ook and s e e t he v i l l a g e , s e e what had happened
t o i t ?
A. We d i d n ' t go.
Q You d i d n ' t ?
A. Our pl at oon, we never di d go.
Q You j u s t s t ayed r i g h t around t h e br i dge.
A. For t h e ni ght we moved up, we moved t h e oppos i t e
way.
Q - I know, but as I under st and i t t h e r e was t he lit-
t l e v i l l a g e t h a t had been burned t he day bef or e t h a t was n' t
very f a r away from t h e end of t h e br i dge. I j u s t wondered i f
anybody from your pl at oon moved around t h e a r e a t h e r e t o t ake
a l ook a t t hi ngs ? You j u s t s t ayed r i g h t a t t he edge of t he
br i dge? Did you s e e any bodi es a t a l l anywhere?
A. No.
Q D o you remember, i n t he af t er noon, HUFFMAN br i ng-
i ng i n a wounded woman o r somebody br i nqi nq i n a wounded wo-
man, c a l l i n g f o r a dus t of f f o r he r ?
A. I t hi nk I remember i t .
Q What do you remember about i t , had s he come up or
how had s he been found?
A. I d o n ' t know t h e f a c t s behi nd t h e s i t u a t i o n , but
I do remember a woman bei ng br ought , somebody br ought he r i n ,
but I d o n ' t know how.
Q Do you know how s he got h u r t ?
A. Somebody br ought he r i n . I d o n ' t know how she got
hur t . I t hi nk I remember somebody br i ngi ng a woman i n .
Q D o you remember i f she was dust edof f ?
(ASKEW) APP T-260
A. More t han l i k e l y s he was. She probabl y was dust ed-
of f because Capt ai n MICHLES was--
Q . ( I nt er pos i ng) Was Capt ai n MICHLES wi t h your group?
A. NO, he was wi t h t he 1st and 2d Pl at oons .
Q. Did you s e e any c i v i l i a n s around t h e a r e a whi l e
you were s i t t i n g around t h i s day, ot he r t han t he wounded woman?
A. We saw a few because, l i k e t h e r e was a l o t of lit-
t l e boat s and t hi ngs , sampans.
Q. Peopl e out i n t he ocean i n t he Sampans?
A. They wer en' t o u t , but t hey were c l os e on t he wat er.
Q But t h e r e were a few around t he r e ? Do you remember
i f some of them br ought t h i s wounded woman i n ? .
A. I c a n ' t remember. I d o n ' t know how s he got t her e.
Q You d o n ' t remember anyt hi ng e l s e about t h a t day
t h a t s t i c k s out i n your mind a t a l l ?
LTC NOLL: I ' m t r yi ng t o f i x a l i t t l e b e t t e r i n my mind j u s t
where t h e pl at oon, your pl at oon, s pent t h e day, r i g h t of f t he
end of t h e br i dge t he r e ?
A. Our pos i t i on was l i k e maybe 15 met er s f r o m t he
br i dge. Harry PARKER, myself and two o t h e r s , our pos i t i on was
l i k e r i g h t out about 15 met er s from t he br i dge. We set a t r i p-
f l a r e on the br i dge.
Q. Did you have a f a i r l y t i g h t per i met er ?
A. Ri ght . W e d i d n ' t l i k e t he enemy a t a l l and we had
a p r e t t y t i g h t per i met er .
Q. Was t he r e any r eason t h a t you a l l d i d not go i n t o
t he v i l l a g e where t he bui l di ngs had been, where t he ot he r pl a-
t oon oper at ed t he pr evi ous day? Was t h e r e any p a r t i c u l a r ' rea-
son gi ven f o r not goi ng i n t o t h e vi l l a ge ?
32 (ASKEW) APP T-260
FOR' OFFICIAL USE ONLY
A. No, t hey d i d n ' t gi ve us a r eason. They gave us no
r eas on, l i k e what ever happened over t h e r e , what ever happened,
we were over t h e r e , we ' d j u s t g e t up and go over t he r e and
j u s t l ook around f o r c u r i o s i t y . We ' d j u s t go i f t hey t o l d us
w e had t o go. But it was l i k e about 200 met er s from us.
Q. Were your squads put i n so t h a t one squad was
l ooki ng t o t he nor t h and anot her squad l ooki ng t o t h e s out h i n
your per i met er ?
A. W e l l , i n t he per i met er we were l ooki ng a l l f our
ways.
Q. Did you hear any demol i t i ons goi ng o f f from t he
company t h a t was moving s out h, t h a t por t i on of t h e company
moving s out h?
A. I t hi nk t hey had a l o t of TNT and a l o t of C4 .
Q Did you hear any t a l k about t he r e s u l t s of t he use
of TNT o r r e s u l t s of t h e use of t he C4 ?
A. Li ke I was t e l l i n g him about C4 .
Q. Was t h a t t he 17t h o r t he 16t h?
A. I t had t o be t he 16t h. The 18t h we g o t mor t ar ed
and t he 19th--
COL WILSON: You cr ossed t he br i dge on t he 17t h.
A. Wel l , i t had t o be t h e 16t h.
Q Did you s e e any f r e s h gr aves over t he r e ?
A. I d i d n ' t s e e any f r e s h gr aves .
Q. We've had r e por t s t h a t t he r e were VC KIA. We had
i nf or mat i on r e l e a s e s on k i l l s dur i ng t h i s ope r a t i on. The 1st
Pl at oon l e a de r r epor t ed somewhere between 20 and 40 K I A ' s de-
pendi ng on which r e por t you r ead. What happened t o t he s e peo-
p l e ? Have you got any i de a what happened t o t he bodi es ?
A. I d i d n ' t s e e any. We di dn' t even go i n t h a t di -
r e c t i o n , be f or e o r a f t e r . We d i d n ' t go i n t he r e . Our pl at oon
(ASKEW) 3 3
APP T-260
d i d n ' t . I d o n ' t know what t hey di d wi t h t he bodi es. T h a t I s
t he onl y t hi ng I know. What I hear d.
Q. Were t h e r e any a c t i v i t i e s t h a t ni qht ?
A. No, it was ki nd of q u i e t r e a l l y , j u s t down by t he
br i dge. Nothing happened t h a t ni ght .
Q A l l r i g h t , what happened on t he 18t h? The company
came back up?
A. Yes, we moved out as a whole company. That whole
day I be l i e ve we gat her ed cp somet hi ng l i k e 400 peopl e over
t he re.
Q When you moved out you moved o u t t o t he nor t h?
A. Ri ght , down. by--
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) On Exhi bi t MAP-4, t h e r e ' s t he br i dge,
you moved up t he coas t ?
A. Ri ght . We were c l os e by t he China Sea. I n t h a t
whole a r e a we gat her ed somet hi ng l i k e 400 peopl e. It took us
a l l day. We gat her ed a whole l o t of peopl e up.
Q When you moved up you moved i n t o a vi l 1ag. e c a l l e d
Ky Xuyen (1) which i s i ndi c a t e d on t he map?
A. Yes, we moved i n t o a whole l o t of them.
Q O r you moved i n t o t h a t ar ea?
A. Yes.
Q And t hen you cr ossed t h i s sandy a r e a her e?
Ri ght .
Q Now where d i d your pl at oon go when it got up here?
D i d it s t a y on t he c oa s t o r di d it move i n t o t h e vi l l a ge s ?
A. We were on t h e coas t most of t h e t i m e . We came i n
l i k e we came i n from t he coas t because t he r e were a l o t of
(ASKEW) 34
APP T-260
dead f i s h and boa t s coming o u t of t h e f i r s t v i l l a q e t h a t we
went i n t o . W e ga t he r e d up a l l t h e pe opl e , l i k e t h e whole com-
pany, w e ga t he r e d about 400 peopl e up, a whol e l o t of pe opl e ,
everybody t h a t c oul d wal k. We l e f t t h e c r i p p l e d behi nd.
Q Did you n o t i c e anyt hi ng o r any h e l i c o p t e r s come i n
wi t h a nyt hi ng unusual on your move from t h e b r i d g e a f t e r you
had j oi ned t h e company?
A. That p a r t i c u l a r day more i n t e r p r e t e r s came i n and
I t h i n k Col onel BARKER was o u t t h e r e .
Q W e l l t h e s e i n t e r p r e t e r s t h a t came i n , when di d
t hey j o i n you, a f t e r you l e f t t h e b r i d g e ?
A. Y e s , t h e day I ' m t a l k i n g about now.
Q You mean up i n t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. Ri ght . Because we had a whol e l o t of i n t e r p r e t e r s
because l i k e . I gues s t he y had pl anned an o p e r a t i o n .
Q . Did you s e e any of them t h a t came up wi t h t h e rest.
of t h e company when t he y j oi ned you a t t h e b r i d g e ? Were any
s t r a n g e r s i n t h a t gr oup t h a t you h a d n ' t s e e n be f or e ?
A. J u s t o u r i n t e r p r e t e r s t h a t had been a l ong wi t h t h e
company.
Q. No s t r a n g e r s ?
A. No.
Q Did you s e e any ' ARVN wi t h them a s i d e from t h e i n-
t e r p r e t e r s t h a t you r e f e r r e d t o ?
A. When you s a y ARVN you mean--
Q . ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) I mean mi l i t a r y Vi et namese.
A. I n t e r p r e t e r s .
Q. Y e s , w e l l - -
(ASKEW)
APP T-260
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) J u s t t h e i n t e r p r e t e r s would be al ong
on a r e g u l a r o p e r a t i o n . But l i k e I say, you know, t h a t par -
t i c u l a r day we ga t he r e d a l l t h e peopl e up t hey had more i n t e r -
p r e t e r s , s o more i n t e r p r e t e r s came. I t h i n k Col onel BARKER
came o u t t h a t day, t oo.
Q = You s we p t t hos e v i l l a g e s up and rounded up a bunch
of peopl e and some h e l i c o p t e r s came i n b r i n g i n g more i n t e r p r e -
t er s. Did you see any medi cs come i n wi t h t h e h e l i c o p t e r s ?
A. Any medi cs, no, we j u s t had o u r r e g u l a r medi cs.
Q. A l l r i g h t now, t h e s e i n t e r p r e t e r s , when you saw
them, w e r e t he y i nt e r vi e wi ng t h e peopl e t h e r e ? What w e r e t hey
doi ng?
A. They were wi t h Capt ai n MICHLES and a l l l i k e t hey
was, you know--
Q. ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) Were t h e r e any U.S. pe r s onne l wi t h
t h e Vi et namese i n t e r r o g a t o r s , i n t e r p r e t e r s ?
Q. Did you s e e any of t h e i n t e r p r e t e r s i n t e r r o g a t i n g
Vi et namese t h a t had been rounded up?
A. Capt ai n MICHLES would a s k, was a s ki ng q u e s t i o n s ,
t he y was j u s t t a l k i n g , he was t r a n s l a t i n g .
Q Capt ai n MICHLES was doi ng a l l t h i s ?
A. No, what ever Capt ai n MICHLES want ed t o know, t hey
had i n t e r p r e t e r s t h e r e .
Q- Did you see any unusual t e c hni que s be i ng used?
A. Not t h a t p a r t i c u l a r day.
Q Did you see any used a t a l l d u r i n g t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. Techni ques ?
Q For ce. Were any of t h e Vi et namese be i ng f or c e d to
do a nyt hi ng t ha t - -
(ASKEW) 36
APP T-260
CONFI DENTI AL
(ASKEW)
APPT-260
LTC NOLL: Did you a l l s ear ch t h i s a r e a o r d i d you j u s t round
up t he peopl e, some of t h e peopl e?
A. We rounded up everybody we saw t h a t wa s a bl e t o
walk. W e j u s t l e f t t h e c r i ppl e d and r e a i s i c k behi nd.
Q Did you s ear ch any of t h e v i l l a g e s ?
A. : Yes, we go i ns i de of hoot ches and gat her ed peopl e
out s i de .
MR WALSH: Did you blow any bunkers whi l e you were s ear chi ng
t h a t t h i r d day?
A. No.
Q I n o t h e r words it was a d i f f e r e n t ki nd of opera-
t i o n , t h a t t h i r d day, t han i t was t he pr evi ous day?
A. We were bur ni ng hoot ches, b u t l i k e t he t h i r d day
we d i d n ' t bur n. I t t ook us t he whole day t o ga t he r up a l l t h e
peopl e and br i ng them back t o our de s t i na t i on.
LTC NOLL: D i d t h a t s t r i k e you as odd?
A. No, not r e a l l y , because l i k e what ever we have t o
do, it changes, changes a l l t he t i me. Do t h i s and do t h a t .
MR WALSH: Well i t ' s not much of a s ear ch and des t r oy opera-
t i o n i f you' r e wal ki ng around and j u s t c o l l e c t a l l t h e peopl e
and br i ngi ng them down to--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) See l i k e we d o n ' t know, l i k e ' I t o l d
him we don' t know what t ype of oper at i on. The CO and l i e ut e n-
a n t , maybe t hey know, but once we g e t out t h e r e , t hey Say burn
t he hoot ches .
Q. On t h e t h i r d day you got some ki nd of an or de r
t h e r e would be no more bur ni ng hoot ches.
A. Ri ght .
Q And you d i d n ' t worry about checki ng o u t t he bunkers
and bl owi ng them dur i ng t h e cour s e of t h a t day?
(ASKEW) 39
APP T-260
A. No. I remember onl y one i n c i d e n t . We d i d n ' t blow
any bunker s. We w e r e ga t he r i nq peopl e up. I gue s s h e was a
V i e t Cong. H e t r i e d t o g e t away. I know my pl a t oon and my-
s e l f and two more guys , we saw h i m . We s h o t i n t o t h e bunker s
and t hr ew some CS gas i n behi nd him. H e di s a ppe a r e d. W e
d i d n ' t g e t him. Th a t ' s t h e onl y i n c i d e n t I know about t h a t
day.
LTC NOLL: L e t me go back t o t h e 17t h a moment. Did you de-
s t r o y any mi nes on t h e 1 7 t h , f i n d any mi nes and d e s t r o y them?
A. No, I t h i n k w e found a l a r g e t u n n e l . They c a l l e d
i n de mol i t i on and it was blown. I t h i n k i t was a t h r e e - l e v e l
t u n n e l .
Q Do you r e c a l l f i n d i n g any r i c e a t any t i me ?
A. We used t o f i n d r i c e a l o t . I c a n ' t remember i f
we found any t h a t day o r n o t .
COL WILSON : Thi s t hr e e - s t o r y t u n n e l you ' re t a l k i n g a bout , was
t h i s i n t h e f i r s t v i l l a g e a c r o s s t h e br i dge ? Is t h a t where
y o u ' r e t a l k i n g about where t h i s t u n n e l was?
A. I t h i n k i t was a f t e r we c r os s e d t h e b r i d g e . I
t h i n k it was t h e same day t h a t we were bur ni ng t h e hoot ches .
Q. Was it i n t h e v i l l a g e where a l l t h e f i r i n g was
goi ng on?
A= Where t h e f i r i n g was goi ng on?
, '4 8
Q - Y e s . You know t h e v i l l a g e t h a t was t a ke n under
a t t a c k .
A. No.
Q I t wa s n ' t t h a t v i l l a g e ? Which one was i t ?
A. I t wa s n' t r e a l l y a v i l l a g e , l i k e it was a v i l l a g e ,
b u t i t wa s n' t s t a n d i n g any more, you know, o l d rundown hoot ches
and s t u f f , l i k e somebody j u s t found a t unne l and bl ew i t .
Q
Thi s de mol i t i on you s a y was br ought i n f o r t h a t
pur pose ?
(ASKEW) 40
APP T-260
A. Ri ght .
Q Was anybody brought i n t o do t h i s job or--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) No.
Q. Your B Company people do i t ?
A. They c a l l e d demol i t i on i n .
Q Engineer demol i t i on team?
A. Ri ght .
Q They came i n and--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) EOD
Q. Was t h i s something t h a t happened whi l e you were up
t her e w i t h t he mort ar pl at oon, t he r e s t of t he company was
gone o r what?
A. No. '
Q- Was t he whole company t her e?
A. Yes, because we was a l l around. I t was t he same
day t h i s guy s a t on a mine.
Q. You' re not t a l ki ng about TAYLOR?
A. No, not TAYLOR. This p a r t i c u l a r day we blew t he
t unnel it might be on a d i f f e r e n t oper at i on.
Q I t hi nk you might have it mixed up.
A. It was i n Pi nkvi l l e but i't might have been a di f -
f e r e nt oper at i on.
&. What happened t h a t ni ght ?
A. Af t er we gat her ed a l l t he peopl e we l aager ed i n
and got our pos i t i ons . I t was 2 o' cl ock t h a t morning we got
t he mort ar. W e got mortared and t hen we recei ved f i r e , t hey
(ASKEW) 4 1 APP T-260
w a s t r y i n g t o ground a t t a c k. Capt ai n MICHLES c a l l e d i n gun-
s h i p s , a r t i l l e r y , and t h e Navy was r i g h t out t h e r e i n t he
wat er , but I d o n ' t t hi nk t hey was f i r i n g .
Q You got mor t ar ed p r e t t y bad?
A. W e g o t mor t ar ed p r e t t y bad. And I guess we g o t
about l i k e maybe two mor t ar s because we d i d n ' t know what was
goi ng on and an hour an a h a l f l a t e r two more came i n and
t h a t was t h e l a s t one.
Q
You mean you had two d i f f e r e n t vol l e ys of mor t ar
f i r e ?
A. . One round came i n an hour a n d a h a l f l a t e r ,
Q I n t o t h e per i met er ?
A. Ri ght . But no one d i d n ' t g e t hi t - -
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) From t h e second t i me?
A. Ri ght .
Q A l l your c a s u a l t i e s were from t h e f i r s t ?
A. Yes.
Q MILUS was k i l l e d and you had some c a s u a l t i e s ?
A. Ri ght .
Q -
Did you see an o l d Vietnamese o r Vietnamese woman
br ought i n t h a t day wi t h a l e g badl y wounded, bef or e ni ght ?
A. Bef or e n i g h t , t h a t ' s when we had a l l t h e peopl e.
I coul dn' t remember t h a t .
Q
Anything e l s e happen t h a t ni ght unusual bes i des
the mor t ar a c t i on?
A. J u s t mor t ar and s n i p e r f i r e .
LTC NOLL: How many peopl e were det ai ned i n t h i s pos i t i on and
ques t i oned , r oughl y?
-
&
"-?-
(ASKEW) APP T-260
A. Al t oget her no more t han about 20.
COL WILSON: Do you have any knowledge of an i nve s t i ga t i on o r
i nqui r y bei ng conduct ed on t h i s oper at i on whi l e you w e r e s t i l l
i n Vietnam?
A. On t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on?
Q Y e s .
A. Yeah. Li ke I was s ayi ng, t h i s guy g o t beat en up,
t hey e l e c t r oc ut e d him s h o t , somet hi ng l i k e t h a t . That ' s t he
onl y i n t e r r o g a t i o n I remember.
Q No, I mean a f t e r t h e ope r a t i on, I ' m speaki ng from
a U.S. s t andpoi nt . Did you e ve r he a r o r do you know of any-
body conduct i ng an i nves t i gat i onon t h i s whole oper at i on t h a t
I was t a l k i n g about , i ncl ude B and C Comnany bot h. Anybody
e ve r as k any que s t i ons about i t ?
A. W e l l I know one i nt e r r oga t i on was goi ng on when
we w e r e a t Upt i ght .
Q Were Americans bei ng ques t i pned by Americans?
A. Y e s , two i n t e l l i g e n c e o f f i c e r s came up t o Upt i ght .
9. What w e r e t h e i r ques t i ons ?
A. W e l l l i k e t hey d i d n ' t g e t around t o us .
Q What ques t i ons were t hey aski ng?
A. I guess t hey was t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t what went on
i n t h e oper at i on.
Q. You s ay ' t hey were i n t e l l i g n e c e o f f i c e r s ?
A. Ri ght .
Q What ki nd of ques t i ons were t hey as ki ng, do you
know?
A. The onl y t hi ng we coul d ga t he r t h a t t hey w a s t r y-
i ng t o f i n d o u t what went on on t h i s oper at i on.
APP T-260
When was t h i s ?
A. Thi s was on Upt i ght .
Q How l ong a f t e r t h e oper at i on?
A. I c a n ' t remember, I guess I Id s ay r oughl y between
2 and 3 days, 2 , 3, 4 days.
Q What rank w e r e t hey?
A. I t hi nk one was a l i e ut e na nt .
Q Was it t h i s o f f i c e r t h a t you i d e n t i f i e d i n t he
phot ograph?
A. No.
Q. Two o r t hr e e days a f t e r t h e oper at i on? Who di d
t hey t a l k t o ?
A. I guess t hey t a l ke d t o t he CO, CP gr oup of 1st
Pl at oon. They d i d n ' t g e t around t o 3d Pl at oon. I don' t know
i f t hey t a l ke d t o anyone o r not .
Q Do you know--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) We saw them come i n on t h e choppers
t h a t day. I was about i n t he space where t he choppers come i n
from Upt i ght .
Q How l ong were t hey t he r e ?
A. . I guess a coupl e hour s .
Q They d i d n ' t s t a y t he r e over ni ght ?
A. No.
Q You' re s u r e t h e y ' r e i n t e l l i g e n c e o f f i c e r s ?
A. What we gat her ed, you know, l i k e i t was i n t e l l i -
gence o f f i c e r s , came . wi t h a b r i e f cas e.
(ASKEW) 4 4
APP T-260
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLoY
Q -
We've got t o try t o g e t a s much i nf or mat i on as we
can on this. Can you des cr i be anyt hi ng f u r t h e r about t he s e
peopl e?
A. That ' s a l l t he i nf or mat i on we g o t on them.
Q. Did you see them?
Y e s .
Qa Did t hey have any s ~ e c i a li n s i g n i a on?
A. I c a n ' t remember t h a t .
Q. D i d t hey t a l k t o anybody be s i de s B Company person-
ne l ?
A. I don' t know. The way Upt i ght i s, w e were down t o
the bot t om o f t he h i l l , a t l e a s t our squad was down t h e bot -
tom, We j u s t s a w them when t hey g o t of f t h e chopper.
MR WALSH: Ha d you ever s een them bef or e?
A. No .
Q Did you know Major CALHOUN?
A. I never saw Major CALHOUN.
Q- You woul dn' t know who he was?
. A. No, b u t he wa s ki nd of young, and t a l l .
Q. You d i d n ' t t hi nk t hey were from Task Force Barker?
A. No, I know t hey we r e n' t from Task Force Barker.
Q. Do you know what u n i t t hey w e r e from?
A. No, l i k e I s ay, t h e i nf or mat i on we g o t on them,
t hey s a i d t hey w e r e i n t e l l i g e n c e i n v e s t i g a t o r s o r somet hi ng.
Q. Could t hey have been t a l k i n g about f i ndi ng o u t i n-
f or mat i on about t he enemy t h a t you pi cked up on t h e oper at i on?
(ASKEW) 4 5
APP T-260
A. Possi bl y.
Q. You heard t h a t t hey were t r yi ng t o pick up i nf or -
mation on t he a c t i v i t i e s of American t r oops ?
A. A l l I know i s t hey were t r yi ng t o f i nd out i nf or -
mation about what went on on t he oper at i on. I don' t know what
st andpoi nt t hey were coveri ng.
COL WILSON: Now you saw t h i s was 2 o r 3 days a f t e r you came
back?
A. I bel i eve it was t he , same , oper at i on.
Q - Do you t hi nk t h a t d a t e ' s p r e t t y accur at e, anything
happen t h a t you could remember t h a t day o r t h e day bef or e, t he
day af t er - -
A. ( I nt er posi ng) No, not r e a l l y. I f I ' m c or r e c t , it
was a f t e r t he same oper at i on, I t hi nk I know two guys came up,
I t hi nk it was a f t e r t h i s oper at i on.
Q You' re not s ur e , though, whether it was a f t e r t h i s
oper at i on?
A. I coul dn' t say de f i ni t e l y, but I know two guys
came up a f t e r an oper at i on. I ' m t r yi ng t o t hi nk i f it was
this oper at i on.
8- Can you f i x t h e apparent time t h a t t hes e people
came up t he r e i n conj unct i on wi t h c a s ua l t i e s r ecei ved? Was
TAYLOR s t i l l t her e o r was MI LUS s t i l l t he r e o r had t hey become
c a s ua l t i e s ?
A. I t hi nk MILUS was dead.
Q. You t hi nk he had al ready been k i l l e d ?
A. That ' s what I ' m t hi nki ng. MI LUS was dead. I don' t
know, I coul dn' t say f o r d e f i n i t e whether it was a f t e r t h i s
oper at i on o r a f t e r anot her oper at i on.
Q I n ot her words, i f MI LUS were dead it would have
been a f t e r t h i s oper at i on?
(ASKEW) 46
APP T-260
A. Y e s .
Q *
Do you e v e r remember goi ng back down i n t o t h a t
a r e a agai n a f t e r t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. No. I t h i n k t h a t was our l as t oper at i on- -
Q - ( I nt e r pos i ng) Down t h e r e ?
A. I n Pi n k v i l l e pe r i od.
Q So would t h a t f i x it any b e t t e r ?
A. I c o u l d n ' t s ay f o r d e f i n i t e .
Q- You w e r e a t Upt i ght ?
A. I know we w e r e a t Upt i ght .
i Q. You had j u s t come o u t of Pi n k v i l l e , and some i n-
t e l l i g e n c e o f f i c e r s d i d come as ki ng some que s t i ons ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. They d i d n ' t t a l k t o you?
A. No.
Q You d o n ' t know who t he y t a l k e d t o ?
A. No.
Q. You c a n ' t gi ve me , t he name of anybody t he y t a l k e d
t o?
A. No.
Q. But you d o n ' t t h i n k it was t h e 3d Pl at oon?
A. No, it wa s n ' t t h e 3d Pl at oon.
Q . So it must have been pe opl e i n t h e 1st and 2d?
*
A. I f he t a l k e d t o any of t h e guys.
47
APP T-260
Q. O r company he a dqua r t e r s , mor t ar pl a t oon?
A. Ri ght . Amos coul d t e l l you i f he t a l k e d t o any-
body. He would remember.
Q
You s a i d WILLIAMS was where?
A. I n Fl o r i d a .
Q Th a t ' s r i g h t . W e ' l l g e t him. You s a y you d i d n ' t
t a k e a camera?
A. No.
Q. Did you e v e r he a r any rumors t h a t c i v i l i a n s o r
noncombat ant s had been unne c e s s a r i l y k i l l e d by Task Force
Bar ker on t h i s ope r a t i on b e f o r e you l e f t ~ i e t n a m,be f or e a l l .
t h i s s t u f f h i t t h e paper and t h e p r e s s ?
A. No.
Q Didn ' t h e a r anyt hi ng about t h a t ?
A. No.
Q. Never he a r d any rumors t o t h a t e f f e c t ? C Company
k i l l e d a bunch of pe opl e , t h i s s o r t of t h i n g ?
A. Peopl e g o t k i l l e d . I t wa s n' t l i k e t he y s a y i n
t h e pa pe r s , I di dn ' t h e a r t h a t anyway.
Q -
Were you e v e r t o l d not t o d i s c u s s t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. No.
Q Was t h e r e any mar i j uana probl em i n B Company?
A. Y e s , more t ha n l i k e l y .
Q You don' t know?
A. Y e s , we l l , you know. There wa s pr obabl y some
mar i j uana.
APP T-260
WITNESS: BRADDOCK, James A.
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Squad Leader, Thi r d
Pl at oon, B/4/3.
1. BACKGROUND INFORMATION.
The wi t nes s was wi t h t he 11t h Bri gade i n H a w a i i f o r
s i x montns bef or e t hey l e f t f o r Vietnam ( pgs. 2 , 3 ) . H e
remained wi t h B/4/3 f o r 13 months a f t e r he a r r i ve d i n
Vietnam (pg. 3) .
PRIOR TRAI NI NG I N THE RULES OF LAND WARFARE.
The wi t nes s was t r a i ne d i n Hawaii t o s e pa r a t e
male pr i s one r s from femal e pr i s one r s and r ecei ved a
gener al o r i e n t a t i o n on t he t r eat ment of c i v i l i a n s from
Capt ai n MICHLES (pg. 3) . MICHLES t o l d them t hey would be
r es pons i bl e f o r t he k i l l i n g s , be a t i ng, and anyt hi ng "of
t h a t nat ur e" t h a t t hey di d t o c i v i l i a n s ( pg. 3 ) . Thi s
c l a s s was gi ven t o t he company a t l e a s t me month bef or e
t hey l e f t Hawaii (pg. 3 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l
anyt hi ng bei ng mentioned on t he l e g a l i t y of or de r s (pg. 4 ) .
H e d i d not r e c a l l r ecei vi ng any t r a i n i n g a f t e r t hey
a r r i ve d i n Vietnam (pg. 4 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t i f t hey
w e r e on an oper at i on and Vietnamese s t a r t e d t o r un, t hey
would h o l l e r "Dung Lai " and i f t h e per son d i d not s t op t hey
would f i r e t o k i l l ( pgs. 4 , 5 ) . H e coul d not r e c a l l e ve r
bei ng t o l d t hey w e r e supposed t o f i r e a warni ng s hot and
he s t a t e d t h a t t he number of t i m e s t hey w e r e t o h o l l e r
"Dung Lai " was l e f t t o t he d i s c r e t i o n of t h e i ndi vi dua l
(pg. 5 ) . The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d r ecei vi ng a Geneva Convent i ons
(BRADDOCK) 1 SUM APP T-217
car d be f or e t hey l e f t Hawaii (pgs. 1 0 , 11). H e s t a t e d
t h a t he had seen Exhi bi t M-2 previ ousl y, but he d i d not
r e c a l l Exhi bi t M-3 (pg. 11).
3 . PREOPERATIONAL PLANS AND BRIEFINGS.
Ser geant MCCLOUD, t he a c t i ng pl at oon l e a de r , gave
t h e pl at oon a b r i e f i n g and i nformed them t h a t t hey we r e
goi ng on a s ear ch and de s t r oy mi ssi on (pg. 5 ) . The wi t nes s
r e c a l l e d t h a t t he v i l l a g e r s had been warned t o move out
of t h e a r e a and t hey were supposed t o go i n and bomb t h e '
a r e a (pg. 5) . He s t a t e d t h a t t he gener al p r a c t i c e w a s t o
des t r oy l a r g e q u a n t i t i e s of food which t hey found (pg. 5) .
Of t en t hey would bag t h e food and f l y ito u t t o be gi ven
t o orphanages (pg. 6 ) . They would us ual l y des t r oy food
which was "obvi ousl y conceal ed" but would l eave food al one
t h a t had been l e f t out i n p l a i n s i g h t (pg. 6 ) . He d i d
not r e c a l l bei ng t o l d anyt hi ng p a r t i c u l a r t o do wi t h t h e
food o r t h e ani mal s on t h i s oper at i on (pg. 6) . They were
t o l d t h a t a t t he concl usi on of t h e i r oper at i on t he ARVN' s
would move i n and set up a base camp (pg. 7 ) . The wi t nes s
i ndi c a t e d t h a t t hey were t o round up i nha bi t a nt s of t he
v i l l a g e s and move them out (pg. 7). They would put a l l
of t he vi l l a ge r s i n t o a pl at oon pool and pas s them back t o
t h e i r pl at oon l e a de r who would i n t ur n pas s them back
t o t h e company (pg. 8 ) . The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d t h a t t hey
were t o l d a s p e c i f i c enemy u n i t would be t he a r e a of
b a t t a l i o n s i z e (pg. 8 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he w a s a
l i t t l e more nervous goi ng on t h i s oper at i on t han normal l y
because of t he t r oubl e t h a t t hey had had i n t he Pi nkvi l l e
a r e a , which t hey had found t o be heavi l y mined and i n which
t hey had l o s t a maj or i t y of t h e i r peopl e (pg. 9). The
pl ans f o r t h e cper at i on c a l l e d f o r t he pl at oon of t he wi t nes s
t o c l e a r a c e r t a i n s e c t i on of t he v i l l a g e (pg. 9 ) . The
t hr e e r e gul a r r i f l e pl at oons were each t o c l e a r a s e c t i on
of t he v i l l a g e and t h e weapons pl at oon w a s t o accompany
t he CP f o r s e c u r i t y (pg. 9 ) . By "sectioli' t he wi t nes s was
r e f e r r i n g t o t he var i ous i s l a nds t h a t composed My Lai
(pg. 9 ) . H e s t a t e d t h a t he di d not r e c a l l what s e c t i on
each of t he t hr e e pl at oons had, but he di d r e c a l l t h a t his
squad was supposed t o sweep t hrough t he v i l l a g e wi t h t h e
command group (pg. 1 0 ) . The wi t nes s des cr i bed h i s pl at oon
as bei ng or gani zed i n t o two squads, each of which had a
permanent machinegun s e c t i on composed of a machinegunner
and an a s s i s t a n t gunner (pg. 1 2 ) . I n h i s squad t he machine-
FOR OFFICIRL USE ONLY
gunner was named MAHR a s s i s t e d by George NAVARRE (pg. 1 2 ) .
Gener al l y peopl e worked i n teams. The wi t nes s worked wi t h
ASKEW, and PARKER t ook a new boy i n t he squad around (pg . 13).
David SCHINDLER was t he a s s i s t a n t squad l e a de r (pg. 13) .
Ot her members of t h e squad were Tommy L. BROOKS, Vi ncent
INGALLS, Frank L. WATTS, Harry PARKER, and Wal t er ASKEW
(pgs. 1 2 , 1 3 ) . The squad had worked t oget her i n Hawaii
and remained t oget her u n t i l t he wi t nes s went i n t o t h e
hos pi t a l and INGALLS l o s t h i s eye (pg. 1 4 ) . When t he s e
t hi ngs happened peopl e became di scour aged and were not
wi l l i n g t o go lack t o t he f i e l d agai n (pg. 1 4 ) .
4. ASSAULT ON MY LAI.
Ac t i v i t i e s on 1 6 March 1968.
(1) The l andi ng and i n i t i a l movements.
The wi t nes s di d not r e c a l l which l i f t he
was i n nor di d he remember which a i r c r a f t i n t h e "V"
he was in (pg. 15) . He di d r e c a l l t h a t a s t hey approached
t ne l andi ng zone t he doorgunners were f i r i n g a g r e a t de a l
(pg. 15) . They di d not begi n t o f i r e u n t i l t hey had been
f i r e d upon from t he woodl i ne which was 300 met er s t o t he
west ( pgs. 15, 1 6 ) . The a i r c r a f t l anded f a c i ng nor t h and
t he wi t nes s e x i t e d from t he l ef t - hand door ( pgs. 15, 1 6 ) .
Enemy f i r e w a s coming from t he west (pg. 1 6 ) . The wi t nes s
s t a t e d t h a t pos s i bl y t h e f i r e coul d have been coming from
t he C Company oper at i on but he t hought itwas t oo accur at e
t o be a c c i de nt a l ( g . 1 ). The t r e e l i n e , which was about
300 met er s t o t he west ( pgs. 27, 2 8 ) , was f i r e d upon
by gunshi ps ( pgs. 16, 1 7 ) . The group began moving t owards
t he t r e e l i n e , and Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d , s o t he u n i t
r et ur ned t o t he r i c e paddi es agai n (pg. 17) . When t hey were
50 met er s from t he v i l l a g e t hey r ecei ved f i r e from it (pg. 17) .
They r et ur ned t h e f i r e , got i n t o t he v i l l a g e , rounded up t he
peopl e, put them i n a c e n t r a l poi nt , and began t o s ear ch
f o r r i f l e s (pg. 17) . The company commander and t he CP group
t hen moved i n (pg. 1 7 ) . The wi t nes s f e l t t h a t most of t he
day was s pent s ear chi ng f o r r i f l e s and i nt e r r oga t i ng t he
pr i s oner s (pg. 1 7 ) . Although t h e wi t nes s w a s not s ur e of
which v i l l a g e t hey went i n t o he s t a t e d t h a t it w a s t he
ane near where ~ i e u t e n a n tCOCHRAN was k i l l e d (pg. 2 6 ) .
Af t e r spendi ng t h e day t h e r e , t hey moved o u t , and m e t up
wi t h Char l i e Company f o r a ni ght l a a ge r (pg. 17) .
. Ac t i vi t y a t t he l a a ge r pos i t i on.
A t approxi mat el y 1630 hour s t h e group moved n o t
more t han 150 met er s i n t o a l a a ge r pos i t i on t o t h e nor t h
o r nor t he a s t of t he v i l l a g e complex t hey had been i n
( P ~ S 28, 29) . He remembered bei ng on t he per i met er of t he
pl at oon t h a t ni ght and f aci ng i n an e a s t e r l y d i r e c t i o n
(pg. 2 9 ) . H e r e c a l l e d t he pagoda' bei ng i n t he l a a ge r
pos i t i on but di d not remember s eei ng any Nat i onal Pol i c e
t he r e (pg. 30) . He d i d not s e e a "bi g capt ai n" who wore
a bowie kni f e i nt e r r oga t e any det ai nees nor di d he hear
anyt hi ng about a capt ai n c u t t i n g o f f t he f i nge r of a VC
s us pect ( pgs. 30, 31) . He r e c a l l e d t a l ki ng t o an NCO from
Char l i e Company and l ear ni ng t h a t t hey had k i l l e d 34 VC
t h a t day (pg. 31) .
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 17 March.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d moving out sl owl y on a main
t r a i l on t he morning of 17 March (pg. 32) . The second
pl at oon was i n f r o n t of h i s pl at oon (pg. 3 2 ) . He s t a t e d
t h a t t hey were wal ki ng on t he t r a i l about 50 met er s
from t he br i dge when t hey began t o r ecei ve f i r e (pg. 33) .
The poi nt el ement was i n t he mi ddl e of t he br i dge a t t h i s
t i m e and t he wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he coul d s e e TAYLOR t r yi ng
t o g e t of f the br i dge _(pg.-33) . He s a i d t h a t he c a l l e d
h i s machinegunner up and t hey watched t he peopl e scamperi ng
around i n t h e v i l l a g e (pg. 33) . I t was d i f f i c u l t t o s e e
how many because of t he br ush (pg. 34) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d
t h a t he was s ur pr i s e d t h a t t he heavy volume uE f i r e
d i r e c t e e t owards t h e peopl e on t he br i dge d i d not h i t them
(pg. 34) . The b u r s t l a s t e d about two mi nut es and when t hey
began moving agai n t hey hear d an expl osi on and r ecei ved
word t h a t TAYLOR had had h i s f oot blown o f f (pg. 3 4 ) . H i s
pl at oon remained on t he ot he r s i d e of t he br i dge whi l e t he
second pl at oon, t he CP group, and t he weapons pl at oon
went acr os s (pg. 35) . He coul d not hear any f i r i n g on t h e
o t h e r s i d e o f t h e br i dge ,and ,when t hey cr os s ed over and
ent er ed t he v i l l a g e , t hey found it des er t ed (pg. 35) .
(BRADDOCK) 4
SUM APP T-217
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d t he gunshi ps making a run bef or e t hey
cr ossed t he br i dge (pgs. 37-40) . Pr i o r t o cr os s i ng t h e
br i dge t hey had seen t he medevac s hi p come i n t o g e t
TAYLOR (pg. 35) . They began t o s ear ch as t hey walked i n a
s out her l y d i r e c t i o n (pg. 3 6 ) . There were houses from t he
edge of t h e br i dge spr ead out f o r 200 meters o r s o
(pg. 3 6 ) . They di d not go any f u r t h e r sout h t h a t day
(pg. 36) . They saw a dead woman (pg. 37) . Because of t he
mines and booby t r a p s t he u n i t was h e s i t a n t t o conduct t he
sear ch oper at i on t h a t t hey were or der ed t o make i n t h e
v i l l a g e ( pgs. 4 1 , 42) . He di d not r e c a l l hear i ng a number
of demol i t i ons , al t hough he t hought t h a t t h e caves and
bunkers i n t h e a r e a l ooked a s though t hey had been blown up
(pg. 4 2 ) . They di d not burn t he v i l l a g e s because t hey had
been t o l d not t o (pg. 43) . They d i d not r e j o i n t he r e s t
of t h e company on t he 17t h b u t s t ayed i n t h e a r e a a t t he
end of t he br i dge and s e t up an ambush t h e r e t h a t ni ght
(pg. 4 4 ) . H e r e c a l l e d a Vietnamese woman bei ng medevac' d
wi t h gunshot wounds i n he r f oot and head t h a t af t er noon
(pg. 4 4 ) . He di d not hear of any peopl e bei ng r aped
( pg. 4 6 ) .
d. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18 March.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t on t h e 18t h t hey t r a ve l e d
t o t he srtreme nor t her n t i p of t he peni ns ul a, gat her i ng up
c i v i l i a n s and moving them sout h (pg. 46) . When t he c i v i l i a n s
were a l l a t t he c e n t r a l c ol l e c t i ng poi nt , t he Nat i onal
Pol i ce began t o i nt e r r oga t e them (pg. 46) . his d i r e c t i o n
t o move s out h had been gi ven t o Ser geant MCCLOUD t h e ni ght
bef or e when he fl ew back on Col onel BARKER' S chopper t o t he
main l a a ge r a r e a (pg. 47) . Col onel BARKER was not on h i s
he l i c opt e r when it came i n car r yi ng t h e i r r a t i o n s (pg. 47) .
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d moving over sand dunes ( pgs. 48, 4 9 ) .
He es t i mat ed t h a t t hey rounded up approxi mat el y 500
peopl e who were gat her ed down on t he beach (pg. 5 0 ) . H e
d i d not s e e a medi cal team come i n , b u t f e l t t h a t t h i s w a s
because once t hey dropped t h e i r pr i s one r s o f f t hey d i d not
s t a y i n t h e a r e a (pg. 51) . They l aager ed i n t h a t a r e a t h a t
ni ght , and he s t a t e d t h a t he was approxi mat el y 30 met er s
away from MILUS when he was k i l l e d ( pgs. 51, 52) . He was
f aci ng nor t h on t he per i met er and he s a w s m a l l arms f i r e coming
i n (pg. 52) . He s t a t e d t h a t t he s m a l l arms f i r e was 300 met er s
5 SUM APP T-217
away ( pg- 53)
e. Ac t i v i t i e s on 1 9 March.
The wi t nes s t hought t h a t t hey r et ur ned t o t h e
f i r e ba s e a t 0800 on 1 9 March (pg. 53) . He d i d not r e c a l l
s eei ng any Nat i onal Pol i c e o r ARVN1s i n t h e a r e a i nt e r r oga t i ng
det ai nees (pg. 53) . He d i d hear t h a t t h e ARVN1s t o r t u r e d
pr i s oner s of w a r by hooki ng a l and l i n e up t o them and
pas s i ng e l e c t r i c i t y t hr ough it (pg. 54) . He was t o l d t h i s
by St eve MILLER (pg. 54) . The onl y ot he r i nc i de nt of
mi st r eat ment of a pr i s one r t h a t he hear d of on t he e n t i r e
oper at i on wa s when t h e i n t e r p r e t e r who was wi t h Li eut enant
JOHNSON sl apped a woman on t h e f i r s t day ( pg. 55) . The
wi t ness was 1 0 yar ds away from them when t h i s happened
(pgs. 55, 5 6 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t appr oxi mat el y one
month a f t e r r e t ur ni ng from t h e oper at i on he hear d s t o r i e s
i ndi c a t i ng t h a t t h e poi nt team had blown up a number of
bunkers (pg. 56) . He had a l s o hear d a t o t a l body count
of 42 f o r t h e oper at i on but t h i s was not connect ed t o any
es t i mat e of t he number of peopl e k i l l e d i n t h e bunkers
( pgs. 5 6 , 5 7 ) .
Upon t h e r e t ur n of t he wi t nes s t o LZ Dot t i e n e i t h e r
he nor anyone i n h i s company was quest i oned about t h e
oper at i on (pg. 57) . He di d h.ear t h a t a s e ni or o f f i c e r had
t al ked t o h i s company commander about something t o do wi t h
t h e l a r ge body count ( pg. 57) . He s t a t e d t h a t t he company
commander was "a l i t t l e t i c ke d of f na bout t h i s because t hey
had run i n t o a har d cor e VC b a t t a l i o n (pg. 5 7 ) . The wi t nes s
a l s o hear d t h a t an i nve s t i ga t i on was bei ng conduct ed i n t o
t he oper at i on of Char l i e Company because of a he l i c opt e r s
r e por t of unnecessary shoot i ng (pg. 58) . Thi s was t he r e s u l t
of rumor (pg. 5 9 ) . No one ever t o l d th>e peopl e i n h i s squad
not t o di s c us s t h e oper at i on because it was . bei ng i nve s t i ga t e d
(pg. 59) .
6 . OTHER INFORMATION.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t he r e was a change i n t he
method of oper at i on f o r t h e company a f t e r t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
i nc i de nt (pg. 60) . I his was because t h a t t h e company began
t o " f ol d up" i n t h e s ens e t h a t t he peopl e who came wi t h them
began t o put i n f o r t r a n s f e r s , go on s i c k c a l l , and become
di s gr unt l e d wi t h working i n t he f i e l d (pg. 60). He
s t a t e d t h a t t h i s was because TAYLOR and MILUS were bot h
very popul ar and t h e i r f r i e nds l o s t i n t e r e s t i n working
i n t he f i e l d ( pgs. 6 0 , 61).
b. The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t mar i j uana was used i n
t he company and g o t t o be a problem a f t e r awhi l e (pg. 63).
He s t a t e d t h a t itwas f r e e and easy t o g e t a hol d of
and t h a t some of t h e i r repl acement s cont i nual l y smoked
it (pg. 63). He f e l t t h a t t hey smoked on oper at i ons but
he coul d never catch them (pg. 63). He s a i d t h a t a number
of peopl e w e r e moved
o u t of t he company because of it
(pg. 64). He s t a t e d t h a t out of 120 peopl e i n t h e company
he would es t i mat e t h a t 1 0 smoked ita l l of t he t i me and
t h a t 80 per cent were t r y i n g t o g e t it (pg. 64).
c . I n di s cus s i ng t he t a c t i c s of t he f i r s t pl at oon
t he wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t HOOTON, who w a s on t he poi nt team,
t o l d him t h a t t hey had blown up some bunkers (pgs. 6 4 ,
65). They had cr awl ed i n t o t h e bunkers f i r s t and asked
t he peopl e t o come out but when t hey di d not s ee anyone
t hey ~ l e wthem up (pg. 65). These peopl e formed a cons t ant
poi nt team because t hey d i d not l i k e t h e i r pl at oon s er geant
o r t h e i r pl at oon l e a de r (pg. 65) . Thei r pl at oon l e a de r
was Li eut enant WI LLI NGHAM (pg. 65) who was new i n t he
f i e l d Dut was r egar ded a s a " f l op" (pg. 66) .
( BRADDOCK) 7 SUM APP T-217
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- - -
-- - - - - -- - - - - --
--
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- -
E XHI B I T
NUMBER DESCRIPTION
p--
M- 2
M- 3
P - 2 0
p - 2 1
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CV C a r d " N i n e R u l e s "
our Ha_n_ds'I
Miscellaneous Scene
~
i scel l aneous Scene
-
% i s c e l l a n e o u s - Scene P - 2 2--
----- ------
NOTES PAGES
W i t had one b u t
he di d n o t k n o w 11 --
w h e r e he got it.
W i t di d n o t r ecal l . ---11
HOUGHTON w i t h t h e
pol e , and t he m a n
on t h e r i g h t as
HOOTON. I t w a s
t aken i n t he
vi l l a ge t ha t t he y
w e n t t o.
W i t i d e n t i f i e d LT
JOHNSON' S i n t e r -
pr et er .
w i t i d e n t i f i e d LT
JOHNSON and h i s
1 9 , 2 0
2 2
2 2
2 3 , 2 4
2 5
1 6
27
i nt er pr et er .
MI CHLES, MERCER
w i t h t he t r a ns -
i n F E ! G f r 6 n t e ft .
st at ed lt w a s
l ooki ng eas t
-
W i t m a r k e d t he
I
--
I---
( 2 - T h e vi l l a ge . 72 8
( BRADDOCK)
8
SUM APP T - 2 1 7
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FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY ,
EXHIBITS
EXI-IIBIT
NUMEER DESCiIIPTION NOTES PAGES
7
3-The - l a a g e r
P-190 Annot at ed P-168
a r e a . --- 30
( c ont )
4-The s p o t where
f i r e d upon on 38
17 M a r .
-- --
5-The gunshi p r un. 40
7-The l o c a t i o n o f
--- -- --
a women's body. 4 3
-
8- Vi l l ager s moved
---------- --
t o . a c e n t r a l 53
c o l l e c t i o n point-.
A
MAP-4 M a p 6739 I1
Shown t o wi t ne s s . 10
~ d e n t i f i e d a s t h e
MAP-5
M a p 6739 I1 ( s mal l s c a l e l t y p e
used --i n
1 9
r-+-
--
Vietnam.
-.-
-- .- - -
-- ------a-
- -----
ii-
(BRADDOCK)
9
SUM APPT-217
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 1.000 hour s , , 2 3 Januar y
19 70. )
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng named per sons a r e pr es ent : COL
WILSON, MR WALSH, LTC NOLL and MAJ THOMAS.
RCDR : The next wi t nes s i s M r . James A. BRADDOCK.
(MR BRADDOCK w a s c a l l e d as a wi t ne s s , w a s sworn
and he t e s t i f i e d a s f ol l ows :)
RCDR : Pl eas e s t a t e your name, occupat i on and r es i dence?
A. James Al l en BRADDOCK, 107 Rancocas Blvd. Mount
Hol l y, New J e r s e y. I am a p r i n t e r .
COL WILSON: Mr . BRADDOCK, bef or e we proceed I have a acouple
of mat t er s I would l i k e t o o r i e n t you on.
The Peer s I nqui r y was d i r e c t e d by t h e Secr et ar y
of t h e Army and t h e Chi ef of St a f f of t h e Army f o r t h e pur- J
pose of making f i ndi ngs and det er mi ni ng f a c t s 2nd ci r cumst ances
i nvol vi ng t h e My L a i i nc i de nt of 16 March 1968.
I n conduct i ng t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on General PEERS
det ermi ned t h a t it w a s neces s ar y t o have a compl et e i n s i g h t
t o t he B/4/3 ground and ai r oper at i ons from t h e per i od 16,
t o 19 March 1968. H e t he r e f or e appoi nt ed t h i s boar d' whi ch
i s r e f e r r e d t o as I nt er vi ew Team C t o ques t i on per sonnel of
B Company and pr epar e a compl et e de s c r i pt i on of t h a t u n i t ' s
oper at i on dur i ng t h i s per i od. You can expect Gener al PEERS
or any ot he r members of t h e panel t o come i n her e a t any t i me.
your t est i mony w i l l ' be t aken under oa t h. A ver -
bat i m t r a n s c r i p t w i l l be pr epar ed. A t a p e r ecor di ng i s be-
i ng made i n a ddi t i on t o t h e t r a n s c r i p t bei ng t aken by t h e
cour t r e por t e r .
~ l t h o u g h t h e gener al c l a s s i f i c a t i o n of t h e r e por t
w i l l be c o n f i d e n t i a l , it i s pos s i bl e t h a t p a r t s of it may
become a mat t er of publ i c knowledge.
APP T-217
During t h i s i nt er vi ew t h e board w i l l f ol l ow a
chr onol ogi cal sequence of ques t i oni ng . T h e f i r s t s e r i e s of
ques t i ons w i l l be concerned w i t h t r a i n i n g j u s t p r i o r t o and
a f t e r a r r i v a l i n Vietnam. Second, w i l l i nqui r e i n t o t h e
b r i e f i n g p r i o r t o t h e combat a s s a u l t s and; t h e t h i r d , con-
cer ni ng t he oper at i on on 16 t o 19 March. The f i n a l ques t i ons
w i l l concern any knowledge t h a t you may have on p r i o r i n-
ve s t i ga t i ons , o r i n q u i r i e s concer ni ng t h i s p a r t i c u l a r opera-
t i o n .
Now, t h i s board has no a ut hor i t y t o r each f i nd-
i ngs o r concl us i ons , o r t o make recommendations. I t ' s s t r i c t -
l y a c ol l e c t i on agency f o r General PEERS. He i s t h e i nve s t i -
gat i ng o f f i c e r and he w i l l come up wi t h t h e concl usi ons and
f i ndi ngs on h i s r e por t . There a r e t h r e e members of t h i s
boar d, M r . WALSH, a c i v i l i a n a t t or ne y on my r i g h t who has
vol unt eer ed h i s s e r vi c e s t o t h e Secr et ar y of t h e Army t o
a s s i s t Gener al PEERS. And Col onel NOLL on my l e f t i s a
member of t h e board and I ' m a member of t h e boar d. I f a t
any t i me anyone e l s e comes i n her e and s t a r t s aski ng you
ques t i ons , i f t h e r e ' s any ques t i on i n your mind a s t o whet her
t hey have t h a t a ut hor i t y I w i l l i nf or m you of t h a t . A l l
per sons he r e , t h e t h r e e t h a t I ' v e named have t h e a ut hor i t y
t o ask you que s t i ons . Have you any ques t i ons on what I have
j u s t covered?
A. No.
Q. . What w a s your assi gnment i n March 1968? ,
A. I wa s a squad l e a de r , si r .
Q. I n which pl at oon?
A. The 3d Pl at oon, s i r , B/ 4 / 3 .
Q. And a t t h a t t i m e assi gned t o Task Force Bar ker .
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. Were you wi t h t h e 11t h Bri gade i n Hawaii?
A. Y e s , sir.
APP T-217
Q. How l ong?
A. Si x months be f or e we d e ~ a r t e d ,si r.
Q How l onq di d you s t a y wi t h B/ 4/ 3 a f t e r you a r -
r i ved i n Vietnam?
A. Thi r t een mont hs, si r .
Q- The e n t i r e per i od?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Did you r e c e i ve any s p e c i f i c t r a i n i n g p r i o r t o
depar t ur e on t h e handl i ng of PW' s o r c i v i l i a n noncombatants?
A. No, si r , j u s t t h e t a c t i c a l por t i on, j u s t s e ~ a r a t -
i ng t he mal e and f emal e, and t he l e a de r s o r c h i e f s , and put t -
i ng them i n one s e c t i on, but as f a r as t he t r eat ment them-
sel ves--I' m wrong, we g o t an o r i e n t a t i o n , we d i d r ecei ve one
or i e nt a t i on on t he t r eat ment of c i v i l i a n s .
Q Who gave you t h a t ?
A. Our company commander, C a ~ t a i nMICHLES .
Q What di d he t e l l you?
A. He t o l d us a t t h e t i me we coul d be he l d respon-
s i b l e f o r t h e k i l l i n g s , be a t i ngs , e t c e t e r a , and anyt hi ng of
t h a t nat ur e.
Q Did he gi ve t h i s t o t h e whole company?
A. Y e s si r, it was a company c l a s s .
Q - Thi s was r i g h t bef or e l e a vi ng Hawaii?
A. Wi t hi n a t l e a s t a month bef or e we l e f t , .
Q. Could t h i s have been p a r t of t h e Geneva Conven-
t i on l e c t u r e ?
A. Y e s , sir. I be l i e ve it was.
(BRADDOCK) 3
APP T-217
Q Do you remember whet her you had s i gne d a s h e e t
t o show t h a t you a t t e nde d t h a t ?
A. No, I d o n ' t remember, s i r .
Q. But it w a s gi ven by t h e company commander?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Did he ment i on anyt hi ng .,on t h e l e g a l i t y of o r d e r s ?
> .
\
A. I d o n ' t r ecal l , si r. , .'
\
i I
Q H e w a s j u s t t a l k i n g about how you coul d be h e l d
r e s pons i bl e f o r t h e mi s t r eat ment of p r i s o n e r s , i s t h a t what
you s ay?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q How about a f t e r you a r r i v e d i n Vi et nam, w e r e you
gi ven any t r a i n i n g i n these s u b j e c t s ?
A. I d o n ' t b e l i e v e s o , si r , I d o n ' t r e c a l l .
Q Were you gi ven any t r a i n i n g i n t h e engagement of
t h e Vietnamese i n combat ope r a t i ons . When you w e r e a ut hor i z e d
t o f i r e on them and s o f o r t h ?
A. No, I d o n ' t b e l i e v e s o , si r .
Q. I f you go on a combat o p e r a t i o n , and move, and
some Vietnamese s t a r t r unni ng away from you, what do you do?
A. Our ge ne r a l p r a c t i c e w a s , i f t h e Vi et namese s t a r t e d
t o run we would us ua l l y h o l l e r and i f he cont i nued t o r un we
would f i r e .
Q What would you h o l l e r ?
A. "Dung l a i . "
Q And when you f i r e d would you f i r e t o k i l l ?
CBRADDOCK) APP T-217
A. Yes, s i r , I guess you could f i r e t o k i l l .
Q *
Did you ever hear anybody say anyt hi ng about a
warning s hot ?
A. No, s i r , I don' t bel i eve s o, si r .
Q
How many times were you suppose t o hol l e r "Dung
l a i "7
A.
That w a s l e f t t o t h e di s c r e t i on of t h e i ndi vi dual .
Q.
How about r epor t i ng of t h e mi st reat ment of noncom-
bat ant s or PW' s, were you ever t o l d how t o do t h i s , o r what
t o do?
A. No, sir.
Q
A l l r i g h t , l e t ' s go t o t he per i od r i g h t p r i o r t o
t he combat a s s a ul t on 16 March, down i n t h e Pi nkvi l l e ar ea.
I ' m i nt e r e s t e d i n what you were t o l d , where, and by whom on
t h a t mi ssi on. I n ot he r words, t o t h e be s t of your knowledge
would you r e c a l l what t ype of br i e f i ng you recei ved p r i o r t o
t he combat a s s a ul t ?
A.
Well, t h e br i e f i ng w a s given t o us by our a c t i ng
pl at oon l e a de r , Sergeant MCCLOUD, and he i ns t r uc t e d us t h a t
it would be a sear ch and dest r oy mi ssi on. I f I r e c a l l cor-
r e c t l y t h e v i l l a g e r s had been warned f o r qui t e awhile t h a t
they would have t o move out of t h e ar ea. And t h a t we were
suppose t o go i n and burn t h e ar ea.
Q You s a i d t he c i v i l i a n s had been moved out ?
A. Had been warned t o move out of t he ar ea.
Q-
And you were t o l d t h a t you were t o burn t h e
villages-.-.and what about t h e food st ock?
A. The gener al pr a c t i c e was t h a t i f we found l ar ge
qua nt i t i e s , t o dest r oy t he food s t ock. But t he r e was no-
t hi ng mentioned s pe c i f i c a l l y on what t o do. I t w a s j u s t
gener al knowledge, what we were t o do.
(BRADDOCK) 5
APP T-217
Q I n ot he r words, as a procedure you always would
des t r oy food s t ocks i f t he r e was a l ar ge qua nt i t y?
A. Usual l y w e would bag it up and br i ng t h e he l i c opt e r s
i n t o f l y it o u t , and gi ve it t o orphanages.
Q You would evacuat e it t hen. I f it was a l a r g e
s t ock would you des t r oy a l l of i t ? I f you had a v i l l a g e t h a t
coul d use it would you des t r oy a l l of t h e food s t ock?
A. No, s i r , or di na r i l y i f we found f oodst ock and ob-
vi ous l y conceal ed pr ovi s i ons , where t hey woul dn' t want us t o
f i n d them, we would des t r oy t h a t . I f it w a s wel l - conceal ed,
b u t i f it w a s l e f t i n t h e v i l l a g e i n pl a i n s i g h t of us we
would l eave it al one.
Q. I n o t h e r words, you' r e t a l k i n g about caches of
foodst ock t h a t w e r e obvi ousl y f o r t h e VC?
A. W e l l , we t hought it was f o r t h e VC.
Q You c oul dn' t t e l l . You j u s t had t o make an
es t i mat e?
Yes, si r .
A 0.
Q I n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on t h e r e w a s not hi ng
s p e c i f i c a l l y s a i d about what t o do wi t h t h e f oodst ock?
A. No, si r , not a s I r e c a l l .
Q J u s t normal pr ocedur e?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. How about ani mal s? What w a s t h e normal pr ocedur e
f o r t h e l i ve s t oc k?
A. There w a s no normal pr ocedur e. We had w a t e r
buf f a l o t h a t had been k i l l e d , but t h a t w a s because--for
i ns cance where t hey run a t t h e G I ' s . And as f a r as I know
t h e maj or i t y of t h e ani mal s k i l l e d were wat er buf f a l o.
[BRADDOCK) 6 APP T-217
Q - Then t he des t r uct i on of food st ock i n l ar ge quant i -
t i e s di d not appl y t o animals i n t he normal procedures of
B Company?
A. No, no si r, i t ' s very hard t o hi de an animal such
as a wat er b' uffalo o r a pi g and t hey were us ual l y l e f t out
i n pl a i n view.
Q. On t h i s oper at i onwas t he r e anyt hi ng s t a t e d de-
f i n i t e l y about t h e l i ves t ock?
A. Not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q. What about t he des t r uct i on of vi l l a ge s , were you
t ol d t h a t a l l vi l l a ge s i n t he ar ea should be dest royed?
A. No, si r, j us t a gener al warning or der t h a t we were
going t o l and i n t h e Pi nkvi l l e and t h a t itwas t o be bur nt
and t he v i l l a g e r s were supposed t o be moved out .
Q- I t hought you s a i d they had been warned t o move
out bef or e t h i s ?
A. Yes, si r , t hey had been warned, t h a t was supposedly--
from my underst andi ng from Sergeant MCCLOUD. And a t t he !
concl usi on of our oper at i on t h e ARVN's would be moved i n t o
s e t up t h e i r base camp.
Q. You were t o l d t h i s ?
A. Yes, sir.
-\
Q. And as you s t a t e d , am I cor r ect ? You were t o
round up t he i nha bi t a nt s of t hes e vi l l a ge s and move them
out ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. What procedures were you t o fol l ow? Who were
you t o t ur n them over t o ?
A. I had no i dea, sir.
7 APP T-217
FOR OFFTCIAL USE ONLY
Q. You' re t he squad l e a de r , who were you s u ~ p o s e d
t o t ur n your s over t o ?
A. W e l l , when we di d c o l l e c t t h e v i l l a q e r s , and my
squad got t he group, t hey put them i n a pl at oon p ~ o land
moved them out t o where t he Nat i onal Pol i ce and ARVN pol i ce- -
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) Wel l , you j u s t passed them back
t o your pl at oon l e a de r and he passed them back t o t he company?
! A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Did you normal l y have somebody e s c o r t them back?
A. Y e s si r , we had t h e e n t i r e pl at oon--as we got
them we would put them back i n t he pl at oons .
Q What were you t o l d concer ni ng t he enemy s i t u a t i o n
i n t he ar ea?
A. I f I remember c or r e c t l y we were qi ven a uni t --a
s p e c i f i c enemy u n i t would be i n t he a r e a and t h e r e was no
doubt i n my mind t h a t t hey were o u t t h e r e , because we had
a l o t of t r oubl e, i n t h a t a r e a f o r q u i t e awhi l e.
Q What s i z e f or c e d i d you t hi nk you were goi ng t o
encount er ?
A. A b a t t a l i o n s i z e f or c e , si r.
Q D i d t h i s o ~ e r a t i o nappear t o be any d i f f e r e n t
from any ot he r oper at i on o r t h e b r i e f i n q f o r i t ?
A. Nothing si r.
Q Nothing unusual about t he b r i e f i n q and not hi ng
unusual about t h e t echni ques o r t a c t i c s ?
A. No, si r.
Q = You wer en' t any more nervous about goi ng on t h i s
oper at i on t han you had been by goi ng on any o t h e r oper at i on?
(BRADDOCK] 8
APP T-217
A. A little b i t more nervous, sir.
Why?
A. Because of t he t r oubl e t h a t we' d always had i n
t h a t ar ea.
Q
Did t he name Pi nkvi l l e car r y some meaning t o you?
A. Yes, sir.
Q What was t h a t meaning?
A. Well, it was a heavi l y mined a r e a and s i nc e w e
l o s t t h e maj or i t y of our people t he r e with mines, we were
nat ur al l y a f r a i d of them.
Q- What t ype of c a s ua l t i e s di d you expect t o have
down i n t h i s ar ea, mine o r cont act ?
A. The cont act we were a l s o l ooki ng t o , but t h e
mines were what we were r e a l l y a f r a i d of .
Q. How, can you descr i be t o me as b e s t you can r e-
c a l l what t h e pl at oons of t he company were supposed t o do
on l andi ng?
A. Upon l andi ng I bel i eve my pl at oon had t h i s cer -
t a i n s e c t i on of t h e vi l l a ge t h a t it was suppose t o c l e a r .
When we went t o c l e a r t h a t s e c t i on, t h e ot her t hr e e s t r a i ght -
l eg platoons-.-well, t he ot he r t hr e e r egul ar r i f l e pl at oons
were supposed t o a l l have l i t t l e s ect i ons of t h e vi l l a ge
t o move i n t o and secur e. And t h e weapons pl at oon wa s t o
accompany our company CP as CP s e c ur i t y a s f a r as we were--
.where t he company CP was suppose t o be I don' t know.
Q- You s a i d t o move i n t o a vi l l a ge ?
A. Well, My Lai , si r , i s broken down i n t o di f f e r e nt
s ect i ons . There' d be maybe 10 hut s and t hen one of t h e r i c e
paddies--one of t h e s o r t of an i s l a nd and t hen acr oss t h e
rice paddy pos s i bl y 50 t o 100 yards would be anot her s ect i on
and it a l l came under My Lai .
(BRADDOCK) 9
APP T-217
FOR OFFI CI AL USL UNLY
Q I ' m goi ng t o gi ve you a run down on t h e map i n
a l i t t l e whi l e on what t h e pl an was. I ' m t r y i n g t o g e t your
under st andi ng of t h e pl an f i r s t . We do have a good know-
l edge of how t h a t a r e a was or gani zed and what t h e name of
it i s and s o f o r t h . But r i g h t now I ' m i n t e r e s t e d i n what
you mean by two s t r a i g h t - l e g pl at oons and your pl at oon, what ' s
t h e di f f e r e nc e ?
A. What I meant t o say was t h a t we had t h r e e r i f l e
pl at oons and a weapons pl at oon. The t h r e e r i f l e pl at oons
w e r e supposed t o move i n t h e i r own s e c t i o n s , t a k e t h a t and
s ecur e it. While t h e weapons pl at oon s t ayed wi t h t h e com-
pany CP and CP s e c ur i t y and a s f a r a s I know t h e CP would
move wi t h one of t he ot he r pl at oons .
Q You remember what t h e 1st Pl at oon was t o do?
A. I don' t know which v i l l a g e o r which s e c t i on t hey
were supposed t o go i nt o. I j u s t know what t h e 3d Pl at oon
was t o do i n t h e r e a t t h a t t i me, and t h e 2d Pl at oon.
Q What w a s your squad supposed t o do?
A. W e l l , t he squad w a s suppose t o sweep t hr ough
t h e v i l l a g e wi t h t he command. We w e r e supposed t o move
i n t o t h e v i l l a g e and e i t h e r s ecur e o r s e a r c h, one o r t h e
ot he r .
COL WILSON : Give me t h e Map. Exhi bi t MAP-4.
(LTC NOLL di d as r equest ed. )
Q. I want t o be s ur e t h a t w e a r e t a l k i n g about
t h e same oper at i on. Which f i r e base were you on?
A. Upt i ght .
9. Okay, I have one o t h e r ques t i on bef or e we pro-
ceed t o t h e oper at i on. Do you r e c a l l r e c e i vi ng any w a l l e t -
s i z e car d which was publ i shed by t h e Mi l i t a r y As s i s t ance
Command i n Vietnam wi t h t h e r e d i n s i g n i a of MACV on t h e
f r o n t of the car d?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l , s i r . W e had a Geneva Convention
car d t h a t we r ecei ved.
10
APP T-217
Q
Did you get t he Geneva :qConvention card bef or e you
l e f t Hawaii.?
A- Yes, sir.
Q.
Have you got t h a t carb wi t h you?
&
A. I dont . t bel i eve s o, , si r.
Q Well, t he card t h a t I was r e f e r r i ng t o i s Exhi bi t
M-2, e n t i t l e d , "Nine Rules. " This i s a f acs i mi l e of t he MACV
card. Would you l ook a t it and s e e i f you have ever seen i t ?
(.COL WILSON handed t h e wi t ness Exhi bi t M- 2. )
A. I bel i eve I have seen t h i s , si r .
Q Did you ever have one?
A. I t hi nk s o si r . I t ' s hard t o say, because t hi ngs
were bei ng dest r oyed.
Q. You don' t remember where you got t he car d?
A. No, si r, I don' t remember where I got it.
Q. The ot he r one i s Exhi bi t M-3, which i s e n t i t l e d ,
"The Enemy I n Your Hands." Have you ever seen t h i s card.
I t ' s a f acs i mi l e?
CCOL WILSON handed th.e wi t ness Exhi bi t M- 3. )
A. I don' t r e c a l l t h i s car d a t a l l , si r.
Q. You s ee t h a t it has some Engl i sh t r a ns l a t i ons
on i t ?
A. Yes, si r .
LTC NOLL: One quest i on on or gani zat i on. How was your
pl at oon organi zed, r egul ar t hr e e squads or--
(BRADDOCK) 11
APP T-217
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) No si r , we had two squads of machine-
guns assi gned t o t h e squad. And by t h a t t i n e w e had l o s t so
many peopl e out of t h e squad by t h a t t i me.
Q You were i n the 3d Pl at oon t h a t w a s or gani zed
t h a t way, what about t he 2d Pl at oon? Do you know?
A. I be l i e ve t h e e n t i r e company was or gani zed t h a t
way, si r.
\
COL WILSON: Was t h i s machinegun p a r t of your squad o r was
it at t ached t o your squad?
A. I t was p a r t of t h e squad, s i r .
MR WALSH: You had two squads and a machinegun s e c t i o n , i s
t h a t what you c a l l i t ?
A. N o , s i r , t he machinegun was p a r t of t h e squad it-
s e l f . I t had a machinegunner and a s s i s t a n t gunner.
Q I n each of t he two squads?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q Can you r e c a l l t h e name of t h e i ndi vi dua l s i n
t h e pl at oon and t h e squad t hey were i n on t h i s oper at i on?
I n your squad?
A. I n my squad i t s e l f , my machinegunner was Michael
MAHR, h i s a s s i s t a n t gunner w a s George NAVARRE. Then w e had
Harry PARKER, Walter ASKEW and t h e ot he r men I c a n ' t r e c a l l ,
si r.
/
Q Were t he s e peopl e or gani zed i n teams of two men
each f o r t he puqgose of s ear chi ng pl aces t hr oughout t h e ham-
l e t ar eas ? d
A. When w e got i n t o t h e a r e a i t s e l f , y e s , si r .
Q Could you t e l l us-.-.I assumed t h e a s s i s t a n t machine-
guiiner and t h e machinegunner worked t oget her ?
(BRADDOCK 1 12 APP T-217
A. Y e s , si r , we u s e d t h e m as s e c u r i t y .
Q Were ASKEW and PARKER w o r k i n g t oget her ? Do y o u
recal l ?
A. On t h i s par t i cul ar m i s s i o n I w o r k e d w i t h ASKEW
and w e had a n e w boy i n our squad. I c a n ' t recal l h i s name,
b u t I think PARKER took h i m around.
Q - Does t h a t account f or everybody i n your squad now?
A. N o , sir, there w e r e others t h a t I c a n ' t recal l .
avid SCHI NDLER, sir he w a s my as s i s t ant squad leader. Would
you l i k e f or me t o pi ck o u t the e n t i r e squad?
COL WILSON: Ye s .
A. Tommy L. BROOKS, V i n c e n t INGALLS and Frank L . WATTS,
sir.
A. Y e s , si r. I bel i eve t h a t ' s it, si r .
MR WALSH: Who di d SCHINDLER w o r k w i t h on t h i s operat i on?
A. I don' t recal l , si r.
Q. How about BROOKS, do you r e me mb e r wh o he w o r k e d
w i t h ?
A. I believe BROOKS w a s w i t h ASKEW.
Q W i t h ASKEW?
A. An d myself, si r.
Q. T h e three of you st ayed together?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q How about WATTS?
APP T-217
A. I d o n ' t know who he worked wi t h , s i r .
Q. INGALLS ?
A. . I have no i d e a , si r .
Q Were any of t he s e peopl e t h a t you ment i oned
pos s i bl y n o t al ong on t h i s ope r a t i on? O r can you r e c a l l
a l l of t h e s e peopl e as bei ng on t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. They w e r e a l l i n t h i s ope r a t i on, si r .
MR WALSH: Th a t ' s a l l I have.
LTC NOLL: Looking back on your exper i ence i n Vietnam d i d
you f e e l your t r a i n i n g w a s adequat e?
A. Y e s , s i r , it coul d have been b e t t e r .
Q Judgi ng from t h e morning r e p o r t you exper i enced
q u i t e a b i t of per s onnel t ur bul e nc e . I n o t h e r wor ds, gai ns
and l o s s e s . What about your p a r t i c u l a r squad? How l ong had
you been a b l e t o work wi t h t h e s e peopl e?
A. Na t ur a l l y w e were i n H a w a i i t o g e t h e r and w e s t a ye d
t oge t he r u n t i l - - j u s t a f t e r t h a t when t h e squads s t a r t e d t o
d i s i n t e r g r a t e . I went i n t o t h e h o s p i t a l and Vi nce INGALLS
l o s t h i s eye. Peopl e got di scour aged and s t a r t e d goi ng on
s i c k c a l l and when I came back a l o t of t h e peopl e we r e n ' t
goi ng back t o t h e f i e l d agai n.
Q The pe r i od you' r e t a l k i n g about now i s a f t e r March?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q Did you g e t a l o t of new peopl e i n your squad
a f t e r you a r r i v e d i n Vietnam?
A. Y e s , s i r , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e I got --I t h i n k I had
one.
Q . J u s t one?
(B RADDOCK) 1 4
APP T-217
A. Yes, si r.
&. I n ot he r words, your squad was r a t he r s t a bl e ?
A. Yes, si r.
LTC NOLL: I don' t have anyt hi ng e l s e . .
COL WILSON: Do you r e c a l l as you approached your l andi ng
zone one of your doorgunners f i r i n g a l o t ?
A. yes , si r , t hey were.
Q Which l i f t were you i n? Do you r e c a l l t ha t ?
A. No, I don' t r e c a l l , si r.
Q Which a i r c r a f t i n t he vee were you i n?
A. I dont t r e c a l l t h a t e i t h e r , si r.
Q Were you s i t t i n g by one of t h e doorgunners o r
on t he i nboard of t he a i r c r a f t ?
A. I bel i eve I was t h e l a s t man i n t h e chopper, sir.
Q- What does t h a t mean?
A. I was s i t t i n g on t h e end.
Q. On t h e end?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q - Which door di d you g e t out as you faced t h e f r ont
of t h e he l i c opt e r ?
A. Th e l eft -hand door.
Q - How l ong had t h e doorgunners been f i r i n g before
you landed?
(BRADDOCK) APP T-217
A. They d i d n ' t s t a r t f i r i n g u n t i l we were pi cki ng
up f i r e .
Q Did you r e c e i ve f i r e as you approached?
A. Y e s , s i x .
Q - Where w a s t h e f i r e coming from?
A. From t h e woodl i ne approxi mat el y 300 met er s t o
t h e w e s t .
Q
And do you remember-t he di r e c t i ons of t h e nose
of your a i r c r a f t when you l anded?
A. I be l i e ve it was nor t h, s i r .
Q. And t h e f i r e w a s coming from t h e west ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Was t h e r e any act i on bei ng t aken t o ne ut r a l i z e
t h i s f i r e ?
A. We had gunshi ps, I f or ge t whet her t hey were
t he r e when we a r r i ve d o r whet her t hey were c a l l e d i n , but
t h e r e were gunshi ps,
Q
Could t h i s f i r e have been coming from t h e C Corn-
pany oper at i ons over t o t h e w e s t , about 1, 000 o r 1, 200 met ers?
A. Pos s i bl y coul d have, si r , but t h e f i r e seemed
ver y accur at e a t t h e t i m e , si r. We t hought it wa s pos s i bl y
VC. When someone would pose as a t a r g e t we would g e t s ni pe r
f i r e and when the t a r g e t came down--in o t h e r words when he
would s t op posi ng as a t a r g e t t he n t hey would s t o p t h e f i r i ng.
(COL WILSON or i e nt e d t he wi t nes s t o t h e a e r i a l
phot o, Exhi bi t P--168.)
Q .
W e are r easonabl y s ur e t h a t you f l ew over t h e
Sout h China Sea and came up from t h e sout h l i k e t h i s .
CBRADDOCK~ 16
APP T-217
A. When t h e gunships s t a r t e d t o f i r e we began mov-
i ng and Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d . So we went back i n t o
t he r i c e paddi es agai n. We st ayed of f t h e di kes and my pl a-
toon moved into--were moving up on a smal l vi l l a ge where pos-
s i b l y a dozen hut s were. I t hi nk we were about 50 meters
from t h e vi l l a ge when we recei ved f i r e from t h e vi l l a ge , s o
we r et ur ned f i r e and we got i n t o t he vi l l a ge . We rounded
up t he people and put them i n t h e c e nt r a l poi nt and began
searchi ng f o r a r i f l e . We were pr e t t y s ur e t h e r i f l e was
s t i l l i n t h e vi l l a ge and t h a t took most of t h e day, j u s t
t he searchi ng. Then I bel i eve t he Company Commander and t h e
CP Group moved up wi t h us. I t was t h e same t hi ng, j us t
searchi ng f o r t he r i f l e and i nt er r ogat i ng t h e pr i s oner s .
Then we l e t them go and we moved out and met up wi t h Char l i e
Company and l aager ed i n wi t h them. That was t h e f i r s t day.
That ' s a l l t h a t happened t h e f i r s t day.
MR WALSH: Do you remember anyt hi ng about t h e l aager ar ea
with Char l i e Company?
A. It was a graveyard, si r .
Q. Was any wat er nearby?
A. Not t h a t I r e c a l l , sir. There was a small pagoda.
Q . A smal l pagoda? Well, ot he r people have mentioned
t h a t .
COL WILSON: Do you r e c a l l t he ar ea you searched t h i s f i r s t
day, was it t o t h e e a s t ?
A. It was e i t h e r t he nor t h o r t h e nort hwest si r ,
from where we l anded.
Q. I see. I n t he company format i on was t h e pl at oon
t o t he e a s t o r w a s it t o t h e west of t h e 2d Pl at oon?
A. It wa s t o t he west , si r.
Q Do you r e c a l l a s you moved nor t h from your LZ you
di d move nort h. d i d n ' t you o r di d you?
(BRADDOCK ) 17 APP T-217
A. The way I have it or i e nt e d now, si r . The s hi ps
l anded poi nt i ng i n t h e nor t he r l y di r e c t i on. W e came o u t
and broke up. W e s t a r t e d goi ng up j u s t a l i t t l e b i t l i k e '
up and l e f t t o a v i l l a g e i n t h a t a r e a ( i ndi c a t i ng) .
Q You ' re t a l k i n g about nor t hwest ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q A l l r i g h t , do you remember cr os s i ng a di ke of
any s i gni f i c a nc e ?
A. No , si r, t hey w e r e j u s t s mal l , aver age di kes .
MR WALSH: Do you remember goi ng t hrough a ga t e on t h e t r a i l
where Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s k i l l e d ?
A. No, si r , we were s t i l l i n t h e rice paddy when he
was k i l l e d .
Q. Were you i n t h e f i r s t l i f t o r t h e second l i f t ?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l si r, I be l i e ve I mi ght have been
on t h e second, but I ' m not r e a l l y s ur e of t h a t .
Q.
W e r e you nearby when Li eut enant COCHRAN got k i l l e d ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. About how f a r away when he wa s k i l l e d ?
A. Approxi mat el y 150 meters .
Q. W a s t h. er e a l a r ge number of t r oops around t h e a r e a
where the Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s k i l l e d ?
A. Y e s , si r.
COL WILSON: What t ype map d i d you use over t he r e ? Did you
use 1:25,000 o r 1: 50, 000?
A. I t t s been s o l ong, s i r , I d o n ' t know.
(BRADDOCKI 18
APP T-217
Q Have you ever seen t h i s t hi ng ( Exhi bi t MAP-5)?
A. Yes, s i r , I bel i eve t h a t ' s t h e t ype of map,
whehter i t ' s 1:25,000 or 1:50,000, I don' t know. Thi s
i s what we used.
Q Maybe t h a t w i l l hel p you t o r e c a l l . Tha t ' s t h a t
graveyard t hat shows up on t h i s one her e ( i ndi c a t i ng) .
A. Then we must' t o have landed i n her e si r ( i ndi cat i ng) .
(COL WILSON or i ent ed t h e wi t ness t o Exhi bi t MAP-
5.1
Q. You say your pl at oon moved towards t h e vi l l a ge .
Do you remember any of t hes e l i t t l e houses around here? Does
t h i s br i ng anyt hi ng t o mind usi ng t h a t i n conjunction--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) , I ' m not s ur e , si r , as cl os e as
I can g e t , the 2d Pl at oon was moving i n t o t h i s vi l l a ge and
we were moving and went up i n t o her e ( i ndi c a t i ng) .
Q- You' re poi nt i ng t o My Lai (5). Well, l e t me
do t h i s . Give me t hose photographs.
(The RCDR di d as r equest ed. )
Q = I am going t o t ur n t o some photographs here and
i f you se,e any t h a t you recogni ze, e i t h e r t h e peopl e o r t h e
pl ace, I would l i k e f o r you t o s t op me. Photograph Exhi bi t
P-20?
A. I recogni ze t h e man.
Q. Who is t h e man w i t h t h e pol e?
A. HOUGHTON ,' si r .
Q. Who i s t he man bending over?
I donbt recogni ze h i m.
Q
The man w i t h t h e helmet on t h e extreme r i ght ?
(BRADDOCK) 1 9 APP T-217
f
FOR OFFI CI AL USE ' ONLY
A. It l ooks l i k e Don HOOTON. But it c a n ' t be, he
was i n t h e 1st Pl at oon.
Q
How about t he s e two men s t andi ng about i n t h e
c e nt e r her e?
A. N o , si r.
Q - Do you know where t h a t l oc a t i on i s , t h a t pl ace?
A. ye s , si r.
Q Where i s i t ?
A.
That w a s i n t he v i l l a g e t h a t we went i n t o .
t
Q. That was i n t h e v i l l a g e t h a t you went i n t o ?
A. Y e s , si r. That 's t h e CP Group. HOUGHTON was a
member of t h e weapons pl at oon, CP s e c ur i t y.
MR WALSH: You s a i d t h e v i l l a g e you went i nt o. You mean
t h e l a a ge r a r e a o r t h e f i r s t v i l l a g e t h a t you sear ched as
you got out of t h e choppers and moved nor t h?
A. That wa s t he f i r s t v i l l a g e t h a t we a s s a ul t e d.
Q You s t ayed t he r e f o r a whi l e I t a k e i t ?
A. W e s t ayed t h e r e a l l day, si r .
COL WILSON: Wel l , how f a r i s t h i s from where Li eut enant
COCHRAN w a s k i l l e d ?
A. 200, pos s i bl y 250 met er s , maybe 300 w e s t .
Q. West?
A. W e s t .
MR WALSH: You remember a chopper br i ngi ng i n a phot ogr apher
i n t h a t ar ea?
A. NO, si r.
(BRADDOCK) 20
APP T-217
Q Do you remember s eei ng a phot ogr apher t h a t day
around?
A. Not t hat day a t a l l , si r.
COL WILSON: Have you e ve r s een t he s e two peopl e i n t h e
c e nt e r r e a r , (.Exh.ibit P-20) . The one wi t h t h e . hel met on
and t h e one wi t h. t h e hel met of f s t andi ng by, t a l k i n g t o
t h i s woman and l ooki ng down at t h e ground?.
A. Tha t ' s a poor phot o, si r , I c a n ' t di s t i ngui s h it.
Q - Exhi bi t P-20 i s t h e v i l l a g e t h a t your pl at oon
moved i n t o t h e f i r s t - -
A. ( . I nt er posi ng) I ' m p r e t t y s ur e of it si r , because
I r ecogni ze t h a t hoot ch.
Q. You r ecogni ze t h a t hoot ch?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q . Were th.e r e s t of t h e hoot ches i n t h. e v i l l a g e
s i mi l i ar t o t h i s ? .
A. No,, sir.
Q Did you have mo r e permanent s t r u c t u r e s ?
A. I remember t h a t , because someone w a s chopping it
down. Someone found a kni f e and t hey were choppi ng i t down.
Q - Found a what? A machete?
A. Not q u i t e a machet e, but somet hi ng f o r c ut t i ng.
Q - You' re t a l k i n g about some U. S . s o l d i e r who was c u t t -
i ng it down?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. How about Exhi bi t P-21?
(BRADDOCK) 21 APP T-217
FOR O F F I C I A L USE ONLY
Q
k n o w him?
It looks l i k e M r . J OHNSON' S i nt erpret er.
Who i s Mr . JOHNSON?
M r . JOHNSON w a s t he M I t h a t w a s o u t there.
D o you recogni ze t h i s per son here?
I recogni ze h i m s i r , b u t I d o n ' t k n o w h i s n a m e .
How di d you r e m e m b e r J OHNSON' S n a m e ? D i d you
Y e s , sir.
Do you k n o w t he name of t ha t i nt er pr et er ?
NO, sir.
D o you recogni ze anybody else i n t hat ?
J us t the G I ' s face and I d o n ' t r ecal l hi s n a m e , sir.
Ex h i b i t P - 2 2 ?
That ' s M r . JOHNSON and hi s i nt er pr et er , sir.
Th i s i s J OHNSON, here?
Y e s , si r.
Do you remeher t h i s l ocat i on? .
A. NO, sir.
Q Y o u r e m e m b e r t he ol d m a n ?
A. N o , I don' t r ecal l h i m ei t her, t he ol d m a n .
Q Y o u s a w M r . JOHNSON there t h a t day t he n, is t h a t
correct?
A. Y e s , sir.
(BRADDOCK) APP T - 2 1 7
FOR OF F I C I AL US E ONLY
FOR .OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Q Did you s ee him when he came i n? Do you know
how he got t he r e ?
A. No, si r , I don' t know how. I f he came--when
he came up wi t h our pl at oon he w a s wi t h t h e CP group. I
be l i e ve he came up wi t h t h e company commander.
Q Do you know how l ong he s t ayed wi t h t h e company?
A NO, sir.
Q Exhi bi t P-23?
A. That i s Capt ai n MICHLES. I remember t h i s man
( poi nt i ng t o t h e U.S. s t andi ng t o t h e r i g h t ) . I wa s i n t h e
h o s p t i a l wi t h him, but I c a n ' t recall h i s name.
Q Which man are you t a l k i n g about ?
A. Thi s man, sir.
Q The man on t h e ext reme r i g h t wi t h t h e t r a n s mi t t e r
on h i s pack.
MR WALSH: W a s he an RTO?
A. I be l i e ve he w a s p a r t of t h e weapons pl at oon, si r,
b u t the weapons pl at oon and t h e CP group moved t oge t he r so
much t h a t t hey s t a r t e d t a ki ng over f unct i ons as a CP group,
and he' d been c a r r yi ng t h e r adi o. I t hi nk he w a s c a r r yi ng
t h e r a di o when he wa s here.
Q Would it be COVINGTON?
A. No si r , I know t h e man' s name. I f I coul d s e e
t he company r o s t e r I c o u l d ' t e l l . MERCER, si r.
Q. MERCER and what wa s h i s job? Do you r e c a l l ?
A. As I s a y, he wa s p a r t of t h e weapons pl at oon,
but he had been c a r r yi ng t h e weapons f o r t h e CO.
Q. Do you r ecogni ze any Vietnamese i n t h i s phot ograph?
A. NO, si r.
Q . DO you know i f he act ed as an FO f o r t h e 8 1 mor t ar ?
A. No, si r, I d o n ' t bel i eve he di d.
Q Do you r ecogni ze any of t hos e pi c t ur e s ?
A. I t l ooks l i k e a man named Lar r y HATCH, I can ' t
be s ur e si r , but t h e ot he r two I c a n ' t seem t o remember.
Q. You t hi nk t h i s man i n t h e f r o n t l e f t i s Lar r y HATCH?
A. I woul dn' t swear by it, but it l ooks somewhat
l i k e him.
Q Exhi bi t P-28, does t h i s a r e a l ook f a mi l i a r t o
you i n any way?
(Negat i ve r esponse by t h e wi t nes s . )
Exhi bl t P-28, c ol or phot o, you s e e some wat er
back her e i n t h e back?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Very br i ght - - . i t ' s probabl y sand her e.
A. Tha t ' s a gr aveyar d, si r .
Q And a coupl e of r oads , smal l v i l l a g e pr obabl y
a h e l i c o p t e r coming i n her e. Do you r ecogni ze t h i s graveyard?
A. NO, sir.
Q You r ecogni ze anyt hi ng i n t h i s a r e a ?
A. NO, sir.
Q Do you know what r i v e r t h i s i s , you can onl y see
a s m a l l p a r t of i t ?
A. I i magi ne i t r s t h e r i v e r t h a t s e pa r a t e s Pi nkvi l l e
from t h e mai nl and o r one v i l l a g e from t h e mai nl and.
(BRADDOCK) 24
APP T-217
Q
Then you t hi nk you' r e l ooki ng e a s t ?
A. ye s , si r.
Q 9 I ns t e a d of nor t h?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q You got two bodi es of water.
MR WALSH: Can you t e l l us i f t h a t ' s t h e gr aveyar d t h a t you
remember from t h e l a a ge r area o r i s it not t h e gr aveyar d you
remember from t h e l a a ge r ar ea?
A. W e l l , t h e onl y t hi ng t h a t I can remember sir, i s
it l ooks l i k e t h e r e ' s a pagoda he r e and t h a t ' s about it.
Q
Was t h e pagoda i n t h e mi ddl e of a gr aveyar d?
A. No, si r , it w a s on t he edge of t h e gr aveyar d, I ' d
say t h e s out her n edge.
Q I f you l anded somewhere i n t h i s v i c i n i t y ( poi nt i ng
t o t h e s out h of 521) , and you move nor t hwes t , you have t o
cr os s t h i s r oad?
A. I don' t remember c r os s i ng it, si r .
Q
I ' m t a l k i n g about a t r a i l now. I ' m not really
t a l k i n g about a r oad.
A. W e l l , t h e r e w a s a t r ai l - - . a w e l l used t r a i l .
Q. Tha t ' s what w e ' r e t a l k i n g about .
A. I t s k i r t e d t h e v i l l a g e , I ,be l i e ve .
Q= Now, where Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d he w a s
acr os s t h e t r a i l , he had t o be acr os s t h a t . I ' m not t a l k i n g
about a macadam r oad, but a d i r t s ur f aced r oad and t h e r e wa s
a ga t e h e r e , that seemed t o be f a i r l y c l e a r i n some peopl e' s
minds. Reasonabl y near where he w a s wounded, you may not
have seen t h e ga t e ?
APP T-217
A. They were e i t h e r approachi ng t h e qat e o r t hey
had -just gone tlu-ough it.
It was i n a l i t t l e open a r e a
when the booby t r a p went o f f , t hey were moving i n t o t l ~ e
woodland.
Q What I ' m t r y i n g t o do i s fix--we would l i k e t o
t r y t o det er mi ne which--in someway, which of t he s e v i l l a g e s
you moved i nt o?
A.
I f you pi ck t h e v i l l a g e t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN
w a s k i l l e d i n si r , t hen I can pi ck it.
Q
Accordi ng t o our i nf or mat i on Li eut enant COCHRAN
was n' t k i l l e d i n t h e v i l l a g e , he was ki l l ed- -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) As we were appr oachi ng t h e vi l l a ge .
Q. I t ' s gener al l y somewhere i n t h i s a r e a ( i n d i c a t i n g ) ,
r i g h t ?
A. W e l l , i f he w a s k i l l e d he r e , s i r , t he n we were i n
her e. We were moving up t h i s way.
Q .
You mean t h i s i s t h e v i l l a g e t h a t you' r e t a l k i n g
about ?
A. pos s i bl y.
MR WALSH: And you s t ayed t h e r e a l l day?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q.
Did you l a a ge r t h e r e o r di d you move out t o
l aager ?
A. W e l l , we moved j u s t a s hor t di s t a nc e and everyone
w a s ver y s ur pr i s e d, because we moved j u s t a s hor t di s t a nc e
and dug i n .
Q. Then do you remember t h i s r i v e r ?
A, N o , I d o n ' t remember i t r si r. I ' m not s ayi ng
it wasn' t t he r e . I ' m s ayi ng I d o n ' t recal l .
(BRADDOCK) 26
APP T-217
Q How l ar ge was t h i s vi l l a ge ? Was it about t h i s
s i z e ?
A. I t seemed t o be about one dozen hut s .
COL WILSON: I t hi nk t h i s i s good enough t o put down. Let ' s
put down t he LZ general l y-we' l l make poi nt 1 t h e LZ. Now
what we want t o determine i s t he movements of t h e squad o r
t he pl at oon, and I t hi nk we' d b e t t e r s t i c k t o t h e squad bas i s .
Were you wi t h t he pl at oon t he e n t i r e day?
(The wi t ness annot at ed ~ x h i b i tP-168, which was
Lat er ent er ed i n t o evidence as Exhi bi t P-190.)
A. J u s t when we were sear chi ng, sir. I n ot her
words, we were a11 spread out through t h e vi l l a ge .
Q- Now t h a t ' s poi nt 2 t h a t vi l l a ge r i g h t i n t he r e .
What happened a t t h e vi l l a ge ?
A. Before we reached t h e vi l l a ge we got s ni per
f i r e coming from t h e vi l l a ge , s o we r et ur ned f i r e and
proceeded t o move i n t o t h e vi l l a ge . We got t h e peopl e
r i g h t away and s t a r t e d searchi ng f o r t h e r i f l e .
Q. St a r t sear chi ng f o r what r i f l e ?
A. By our way of t hi nki ng si r , i f t he r e was f i r e
coming out of the vi l l a ge t he r e wa s probably a r i f l e i n
t he vi l l a ge . I t d i d n ' t seem l i k e he could sneak out of
t he back of t h e vi l l a ge t h e way it w a s open.
8 You a l s o s a i d t h a t when you landed you were
r ecei vi ng f i r e and you s a i d you were r ecei vi ng it from
a t r e e l i n e ?
- A. Yes, si r.
Q. And t he t r e e l i n e was t o t h e west of t h e LZ?
A. ' Yes, si r.
Q. I t hi nk you s a i d 300 meters d i d n ' t you?
APP T- 217
A. I t seemed- about 300 met er s , approxi mat el y 300 meters
w e s t .
Q Now a t poi nt 2 , di d you r ecei ve your s ni pe r f i r e
bef or e Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t t h a t mine?
A. No, si r , a f t e r he h i t t h e mine.
Q. Now l e t ' s put poi nt 2 , "Received r i f l e from t h e
vi l l a ge . "
A. We wer en' t s ear chi ng t h e e n t i r e day, j u s t sl oughi ng
o f f , and bumping around, and s i t t i n g i n t h e trees. M r . JOHNSON
and h i s i n t e r p r e t e r w e r e i nt e r r oga t i ng peopl e.
Q. W e a r e s t i l l on poi nt 2 . "Joi ned by Li eut enant
JOHNSON. " How many peopl e do you e s t i ma t e he i nt e r r oga t e d a t
t h a t l oc a t i on?
A. I don' t know si r. I ' d walk by and he ' d be i nt e r o-
ga t i ng, I don' t how many he w a s i nt e r r oga t i ng somebody.
Then I would go out i n t h e back of t h e v i l l a g e and s t a y
back t he r e f o r awhi l e, t hen come back agai n. He might be
i nt e r r oga t i ng, I d o n ' t how many he was i nt e r r oga t i ng.
COL WILSON: Poi nt 1, on t h e phot o map des i gnat es t h e LZ
pl at oon r ecei ved r i f l e f i r e approxi mat el y 300 met er s t o t h e
w e s t . Pl at oon moved t o t h e nor t h nor t hwest t o a v i l l a g e
des i gnat ed as poi nt 2 . Received r i f l e f i r e from t h e v i l l a g e .
Searched t h e vi l l a ge . J oi ned by Li eut enant JOHNSON who i n-
t e r r oga t e d t h e v i l l a g e r s . And you remained a t t h i s v i l l a g e
a l l day?
A. Yes , si r .
Q. You remember what t i me you depar t ed?
A. Pos s i bl y 1630 o r somewhere i n t h a t a r e a I be l i e ve ,
s i r about 1630 i n t h e af t er noon.
Q. And you moved how f a r ?
A. J u s t a s h o r t di s t a nc e , no more t han say 150 met er s.
(BRADDOCK) 28
APP T-217
Q Which di r e c t i on?
A. North si r , o r nor t heas t .
Q
Were you i n t h e r i c e paddi es agai n o r were you i n
a v i l l a g e complex, o r what?
A. No, si r , we swung out-.-we went out q u i t e aways and
secured. We w e r e i n t h e rice paddi es, but I bel i eve we drew
back--they we r e r i c e paddi es, but t hey were dr y.
Q You wer enFt i n t he vi l l a ge complex? You wer en' t
near a bunch of houses?
A. No, si r , we w e r e very cl os e t o t h e houses.
LTC NOLL: Did you and C Company ever j oi n i n a ni ght def ensi ve
pos i t i on, i n ot he r words, we r e you t i ed- i n wi t h one anot her ?
A. yes si r, we w e r e .
Q Was your pl at oon i n cont act wi t h C Company?
A. I bel i eve we had them t i e d- i n, a s a mat t er of f a c t
I t hi nk we w e r e , because one of t h e i r NCO' s came over and
t al ked t o me.
Q
Were you on the per i met er of the pl at oon t h a t ni ght .
A. Y e s , sir.
Q
Do you remember which di r e c t i on of t h e per i met er
your pl at oon wa s f aci ng on s e c ur i t y?
A. I bel i eve we had the e a s t e r l y s e c t i on.
Q
Were you s ecur i ng from the e a s t o r we r e you f aci ng
t h e e a s t ?
A. W e w e r e f aci ng t h e east.
3. W e l l , i t ' s al most t h e same t hi ng. I f you s a i d
you moved 100 o r 150 meters nor t he a s t from poi nt 2, t h a t would
put you about r i g h t out i n here ( i ndi c a t i ng) ?
29
APP T-217
A. One t hi ng I do remember about t h e l aager pos i t i on
si r, w a s t h e pagoda.
Q While he is drawing t h a t , l e t me go over t he morning
r epor t f or 1 6 March t o r e f r e s h your memory a l i t t l e b i t .
There were s ever al c a s ua l t i e s on t h e 16t h, Li eut enant COCHRAN,
WILBURN, and CANTU, HITCHMAN, TRAVERSA, SHIFLEY, HOSKINS and
GUNTA. A l l of t hes e people were not wounded a t t h e same
time t h a t Li eut enant JOCHRAN was k i l l e d , but t hey were wounded
t h a t day. Do you r e c a l l t h i s ?
A. I t hi nk I r e c a l l . That was a f t e r t hey moved i n t he
wood l i n e , I bel i eve.
Q = Okay, poi nt 3. Night defensi ve pos i t i ons 16 March.
MR WALSH: When you were i n the l aager pos i t i on t h a t ni ght di d
you s ee any Nat i onal Pol i ce i nt er r ogat i ng pr i s oner s ?
A. No, si r , I don' t even remember s eei ng Nat i onal
Pol i ce i n t h e l aager pos i t i on.
Q Did you s e e a capt ai n i nt er r ogat i ng any det ai nees?
A. No, sir.
Q. Did you know or di d you s e e a bi g capt ai n t h a t
was a shar p dr es s er ? He wore a p i s t o l and a bi g Bowie kni f e.
A. No, sir, I donkt remember s eei ng him a t a l l duri ng
t he e n t i r e mi ssi on.
Q Did you ever hear anyt hi ng about any det ai nees being
s hot e i t h e r Nat i onal Pol i ce o r anybody e l s e i n t he l aager ar ea,
a t t h a t time?
A. No sir, as a mat t er of f a c t I heard no s hot s a t a l l .
Q- Did you ever hear anyt hi ng about a U.S. capt ai n cut -
t i n g t he f i nge r of f a VC suspect i n t he l aager a r e a t h a t
ni ght ?
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY ,
A. No, s i r , I d o n ' t t hi nk s o .
Q
Is t h e r e anyt hi ng el se t h a t happened dur i ng t h e
f i r s t day of t h i s ope r a t i on t h a t s t i c k s o u t i n your mind?
That you t h i n k would be a t a l l h e l p f u l t o us ?
A. W e l l , when we were t yi ng- i n I w a s t a l k i n g t o t h a t
NCO from Cha r l i e Company and I wa s a s ki ng him i f t he y t ook
many c a s u a l t i e s . I f o r g e t h i s answer. Then I asked him i f
t hey k i l l e d anybody t h a t day and he s a i d t he y k i l l e d 34.
Q Ki l l e d how many?
A. Thi r t y- . our .
Q Did he say whet her t he y w e r e VC o r women and
c h i l d r e n , or anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t ?
A. NO, si r.
Q. He j u s t t o l d you t h a t t hey k i l l e d 34?
A. ye s , si r.
Q Do you remember what h i s name was?
A. No , si r. I t h i n k he w a s a heavy set boy wi t h a
handl ebar .
Q.
By t h e handl ebar you mean must ache?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q You remember i f he w a s a bl a c k s o l d i e r o r Cauc-
a s i a n?
A. H e w a s a Caucasi an.
Q You remember what h i s gr ade was?
A. I b e l i e v e he was an E- 5.
(1. Ot her t ha n t hat you d o n ' t have any r e c o l l e c t i o n ,
t h e f i r s t day, of anyt hi ng out of t h e or di na r y t h a t mi ght be
h e l p f u l t o us i n t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n ?
A. NO, sir.
LTC NOLL: Did it seem t o you t h a t you compl et ed your m i s -
s i o n f o r t h i s f i r s t day. I n ot he r words, you onl y sear ched
one v i l l a g e ? Did you expect t o do more t han t h a t when you
went out t he r e ?
A. NO, si r.
Q Thi s wa s j u s t e xa c t l y what you were expect ed t o do?
A. Y e s , slr.
COL WILSON: Did you burn any v i l l a g e s t h a t day? That vi l l a ge
you were i n , wa s t h a t dest r oyed?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk s o , s i r . ' A s a ma t t e r of f a c t I ' m
p r e t t y s ur e it was n' t . W e w e r e s o c l os e be f or e , we s e t t l e d
down f o r the night-.-.there were peopl e goi ng back i n t o t h e
v i l l a g e t o g e t s t r aw t o l a y on t h e ground s o we would have
somet hi ng t o l a y on.
Q A l l r i g h t , l et ' s go t o t h e 17t h. What happened
t h e f ol l owi ng morning?
A. W e l l , we s t a r t e d out-.-I d o n ' t know what t i me we
s t a r t e d out--we were moving p r e t t y slowly--we were on a
main t r a i l and-.-.
MR WALSH: ( I nt er pos i ng) What w a s t h e or gani zat i on of t h e
company as you moved? Do you remember?
A. I r e a l l y don' t know, si r .
Q. You remember i f you were a t t h e 'head of t h e
column o r i n t h e r e a r or-.-.
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) When we got h i t , w e got h i t a t
t h e br i dge , my pl at oon w a s second.
Q. There w a s one pl at oon i n f r o n t of you?
A. Y e s , si r, t h e 2d Pl at oon. .
Q. Was t h e CP group i n f r o n t of you?
A, NO, si r.
Q You s a i d t h e 1st Pl at oon w a s i n f r o n t of you--was
t h e 1st Platoon--do you r e c a l l s eei ng them on t h e f i r s t day?
(.BRADDOCKj 32 APP T-217
A. When we s t a r t e d t o r ecei ve f i r e .
Q - Where were you a t t h a t poi nt ? Were you on the
br i dge?
A. No, si r. I bel i eve we were winding around and
we were wal ki ng down a t r a i l headed towards t he br i dge. We
were i n an a r e a i n t h e r e I t hi nk, about 50 met er s. We were
on t he r i v e r i t s e l f and 50 met er s more we would have been a t
t he br i dge.
Q Could you s ee peopl e on t he br i dge?
A. No, si r.
Q A l l r i g h t , wa s t he el ement t h a t was r ecei vi ng t he
f i r e on t he ot he r s i d e of t he br i dge o r was it on your s i d e
of t he br i dge?
A. They w e r e i n t he mi ddl e of t he br i dge, because
when we s t a r t e d t o r e c e i ve f i r e t h a t ' s when everybody was i n
pos i t i on g e t t i n g ready t o f i r e and I saw, I t hi nk it was TAY-
LOR, t r y i n g t o g e t of f t he br i dge and t hey were f i r i n g .
Q. And you coul d see TAYLOR on t he br i dge?
A. Y e s , si r, a t t h a t t i me I coul d.
Q. Did you see anybody bes i des TAYLOR on t he br i dge?
A. W e l l , t he pl at oon was s t r e t c he d o u t al ong t he
br i dge and he w a s i n i t i a l poi nt man.
Q. Okay, t hen what happened when you not ed them re-
cei vi ng f i r e ?
A. I c a l l e d my machinegunner up and we w e r e wat chi ng
t he peopl e over i n t he v i l l a g e .
Q Could you s ee t he peopl e?
A. Y e s , t hey w e r e scamperi ng around over t her e.
Q On t he ot he r s i d e of t he wat er ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q A l o t of them?
A. It l ooked l i k e q u i t e a few, si r , b u t it wa s har d
t o t e l l , because t hey ducked behi nd t h e brush.
Was t h e r e a l o t of f i r i n g goi ng on?
A. They put up a real heavy volume. It s ur pr i s e d us
a l l concer ni ng t h e pos i t i on t h e men were i n t hey d i d n ' t g e t
h i t .
COL WILSON: Who put out a heavy volume?
A. Th e f i r e t h a t w a s coming from t h e v i l l a g e w a s ver y
heavy. It wa s aut omat i c weapons f i r e .
MR WALSH: From th.e v i l l a g e and di r e c t e d t o you?
A. A t the peopl e on t h e br i dge.
Q But you we r e n' t r e c e i vi ng any f i r e ?
A. No, si r.
Q Okay, were you r e t ur ni ng f i r e o r f i r i n g acr os s t h e
river?
A. NO, sir.
Q Now how l ong di d t h i s keep? ,
A. Thi s was a ver y s hor t per i od of t i m e , t h e b u r s t
l a s t e d , I ' d say no more t han 2 mi nut es and t he n when we , s t a r t e d
moving agai n. W e hear d t h e expl osi on and t h e word came back
that TAYLOR had h i s f oot blown of f and t he n w e pushed r a pi dl y
i n t o t h e v i l l a g e .
Q Had you cr os s ed t h e br i dge?
A. Yes, sir.
Q. Were you t h e l a s t pl at oon t o cr os s t h e br i dge?
(BRADDOCK) 34
APP T-217
A. NO, si r , t h e 2d Platoon--no s i r , we were t h e l a s t
pl at oon, t hey hel d us back t o s ecur e t h e ot he r end of t h e
br i dge whi l e t he 2d Pl at oon and t h e CP group and t h e weapons
pl at oon went acr os s .
Q How l ong di d you s t a y on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e
br i dge pul l i ng s e c ur i t y?
A. My guess would be about an hour , si r . '
Q
Could you hear any f i r i n g from acr oi s t h e br i dge
whi l e you w e r e t h e s e c ur i t y el ement on t h e west s i d e of t h e
br i dge?
A. NO, sir.
Q I t was q u i e t e r over t he r e ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Okay, now what happened when you cr os s ed t h e br i dge?
A. When we got acr os s t h e f i r s t t hi ng I s a w w a s TAY-
LOR' S f oot . It wa s l a yi ng on t h e s i d e of t h e t r a i l . We
went i n and t h e v i l l a g e w a s des er t ed and we were t o l d t o head
sout h. W e went down sout h f o r about 200 met er s.
Q J u s t a mi nut e, di d you see a medevac s hi p come i n
t o g e t TAYLOR?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Was t h a t bef or e you cr os s ed the br i dge?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q About how l ong a f t e r t h e medevac s hi p went out di d
you c r os s t h e br i dge?
A. Fort y-. fi ve mi nut es I be l i e ve , si r.
Q Did you s e e t h e ot he r pl at oons when you got acr os s
t h e br i dge?
A. W e s a w t h e weapons pl at oon, si r.
Q That ' s a l l ?
APP T-217
A. They w e r e s e c ur i ng t h e o t h e r end of t h e br i dge .
Q. The 1st and 2d Pl at oons w e r e a l r e a dy moving out of
t h e r e ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q What or de r s d i d you g e t a t t h e t i m e and from whom?
A. W e w e r e t o--t he a c t i n g pl at oon l e a d e r , Ser geant
MCCLOUD had us s t a r t moving s out h. W e went down about 200
meters and checked t h e houses. H e w a s a l i t t l e a f r a i d t o walk
f u r t h e r , because t hey had mines a l l ove r t h e r e .
Q
Were t h e houses about 200 meters s out h of t h e
br i dge ?
A. No, si r. The houses were--t here w e r e houses as
soon as w e got a c r os s t h e br i dge- - t hey w e r e ext ended--not
l i k e a t y p i c a l v i l l a g e where t hey w e r e packed c l os e t oge t he r .
These were s pr ead out and t hey w e r e s pr ead o u t q u i t e a b i t ,
s o w e d i d n ' t even bot he r checki ng a l l t h e way i n t o t h e houses.
W e came around back t o t he br i dge agai n and t he n we s t a ye d
t h e r e u n t i l dar k. Then t h e weapons pl a t oon moved o u t and
w e set up an ambush a t t h e br i dge .
Q So you d i d n ' t go sout h dur i ng t h e day a t a l l ?
A. J u s t t h a t 200 meters o r s o .
Q. Were a l l t h e hoot ches burned?
A. NO , sir.
Q Bef or e you went s out h t h a t day?
A. No, sir.
Q They w e r e s t i l l unburned?
A. They we r e s t i l l unburned. Some of the p o t s had
been ki cked ove r , e t cetera, but not hi ng e l s e .
Q. Did you see anybody?
A. Once, si r.
Q. VC o r c i v i l i a n ?
36 APP T-217
A. W e saw--we were checki ng out pos i t i ons f o r t h e a m-
bush and we were up i n t h e sand and we found a woman up t h e r e .
She' d been dead a l l day and t h a t w a s t h e onl y t hi ng I saw.
Q Did s he have any c l ot he s on?
A. Y e s , sir. When t he men came up t hey had some new
peopl e t h a t had never seen bodi es and wanted t o go up and s e e .
They were t a l k i n g about it and we deci ded t h a t s he had a bi g
gapi ng hol e i n h e r neck, it w a s from a r e gul a r weapon. But
it was not hi ng we c a r r i e d s o we t hought it mi ght have been
a he l i c opt e r .
Q
Mow, whi l e you were on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e
br i dge di d you see any gunshi ps making any r uns?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q
From what d i r e c t i o n di d t hey come and how many r uns
di d t hey make?
A. I t hi nk t hey came from t h e w e s t , si r , and i t ' s har d
t o t e l l t hen, because t h e s hi ps come i n s e pa r a t e l y.
Q. Did t hey come over your head?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q
They w e r e coming from the w e s t and where w e r e t hey
f i r i n g ?
A. They w e r e f i r i n g at t h e bank si r, al ong t h e r i v e r ,
but t h e f i r i n g wa s coming from the bank i t s e l f - - t he enemy and
t hey were f i r i n g i n t o the bank and r i g h t al ong t h e beach it-
s e l f .
Q
Was it j u s t t o t he sout h of t h e br i dge o r j u s t t o
t h e n o r t h of the br i dge , do you recall t h a t ?
A. When I saw t h e m f i r i n g t hey were f i r i n g j u s t t o t h e
nor t h of the br i dge.
9.
J u s t t o t h e nor t h of the br i dge? How many he l i -
copt er s and how many gunruns d i d t hey make, you remember?
A. I donqt remember t h e gunr uns, but t hey us ual l y f l ew
i n groups of t wo' s and t h r e e ' s .
Q
You d o n ' t rememher whet her t he r e were two o r t hr e e ?
[BRADDOCK] 37
APP T-217
A. No, si r .
Q You don' t remember how many runs t hey made?
A. NO, sir.
Q Was it over pr e t t y qui ck?
A. Yes, s i r , t h e whole t hi ng was over - - i t seemed l i k e
it was j u s t s t a r t e d and t hen it was over .
COL WI LSON: Le t t s s t a r t ge t t i ng t h i s down. Moving t o t h e
bridge--what r out e di d you fol l ow when you came down?
A. I bel i eve we h i t t he , t r a i l , si r , and followed t he
t r a i l a l l t h e way down.
Q Thi s i s what you desi gnat e as poi nt 4 . What hap-
pened t her e?
A. While the poi nt team was s t i l l on t h e br i dge we
recei ved a heavy volume of f i r e from t h e vi l l a ge o r t h e banks
al ong t h e vi l l a ge .
Q Did t h e poi nt team or you r ecei ve i t ?
A. Th e poi nt team, t h e peopl e t h a t were on t h e bri dge
a t t h e t i m e .
LTC NOLL: Would t h i s be i n t he 1st Pl at oon?
A. Yes, si r.
COL WILSON: You were on t he bri dge?
A. Yes, si r.
Q. You r ecei ved a heavy volume of f i r e ?
A. Yes, si r , very heavy.
Q You observed t h i s ?
A. Well, we couiii hear t h e b u l l e t s cracking and s ee
t he t r a c e r s .
Q . A t t h i s poi nt what e l s e happened? You mentioned
t h a t TAYLOR was wounded. Was t h i s a f t e r t h e f i x e s t a r t e d?
[BRADDOCK) 38
APP T-217
A.
It w a s a f t e r t he f i r e had ceased, si r , when we
s t a r t e d moving of f t h e bri dge agai n.
Q
Okay, l e t ' s j us t put it a t t h i s poi nt 4.
TAYLOR
wounded a f t e r t he f i r e ceased.
He was wounded on t he br i dge?
A. NO, six. He wa s off t h e br i dge.
Q.
H e wa s of f t h e br i dge? \
(No response. )
LTC NOLL : He was on the east s i de of t h e br i dge?
Y e s , si r, he had j u s t ~ t e p p e d ~ o f f .
MR WALSH: You c l e a r l y remember seei ng TAYLOR run acr oss t h e
bri dge bef or e he hi t t he booby t r a p?
Y e s , sir.
You di dnt . t see anybody except TAYLOR?
A.
W e l l , TAYLOR wa s t h e only one t h a t I coul d pi ck out
of the group. He wa s a bi g man.
1
LTC NOLL: Af t er t h e f i r e had ceased?
A. Y e s , sir.
COL WILSON: IS t h e r e anyt hi ng e l s e t h a t occurred her e where
TAYLOR got wounded bef or e the gunships came i n?
A, Y e s , t h e medevac.
Q-
The medevac picked him up. How l ong a f t e r he wa s
wounded?
A. Possi bl y 15 minutes.
COL WILSON; Put naedevac on poi nt 4 t oo.
CLTC NOLL di d as request ed. l
okay, the next t hi ng was the gunrun?
A. No, si r. The gunrun came before t h e medevac I
bel i eve.
Q - The gunrun di d come bef or e t h e medevac?
A. I t hi nk s o.
Q. The gunrun i s over her e. So we ' l l have t o put t h i s
as anot her poi nt .
(LTC NOLL i ndi cat ed poi nt 5 as request ed by COL
WILSON. )
Q Now a t poi nt 5. Where,would you say t h e impact
ar ea w a s from t he gunrun?
A. When we got of f t he br i dge we had t h e palm t r e e s .
And r i g h t as we were ge t t i ng from under t h e t r e e s t hey were
blown of f t h e i r base with r ocket s. I 'd say r i g h t about t h e
end of t he br i dge, t he eas t er n edge of t he br i dge o r i n t h a t
immediate ar ea, around t he br i dge.
Q Well, wasn' t t h a t very cl os e t o where TAYLOR was?
A. Yes si r. We were along t he r i v e r r i g h t down i n
here--the s hi ps were coming very low.
Q Thi s i s Exhi bi t P-185.
A. They were coming very low over us and firing down--
t he r e i s n ' t much e l s e t hey can do, because peopl e had been
down on t he bri dge anyway and t h e impact a r e a was r i g h t i n
her e ( i ndi c a t i ng] . Then t he f i r i n g ceased and we went acr oss
t he br i dge and t hen TAYLOR l o s t h i s f oot .
Q So a c t ua l l y, t he di r e c t i on of f l i g h t was over your
head and the impact ar ea was gener al l y over i n t h i s ar ea?
A. Yes, si r.
Q. You don' t remember how many?
A. NO, si r.
Q. Had t h e f i r i n g from t h e vi l l a ge stopped bef or e t he
gun passes were--
(BRADDOCK) APP T- 217
(. Int erposi ng) N o , si r .
Q
Kind of s ur pr i s ed about t h a t , t h e f i r i n g j u s t
s t a r t e d and it seems t he gunships a r e making a run al r eady.
id it s t op a f t e r t h e gunships made t h e i r run?
A. Yes, si r, it usual l y does.
Q -
Were t hey f i r i n g miniguns?
A. The gunshi ps, s i r ? Yes, t hey were f i r i n g r ocket s
and miniguns.
Q Rockets and miniguns? Okay, put t h a t down. Rockets
and minigun f i r e .
A. And t he door gunners were f i r i n g t he machineguns.
Q
Did it seem t o be a very e f f e c t i ve f i r e ? Did it
look l i k e it was going i n t o t h e ar ea where t h e f i r e was coming
from?
A. Y e s , sir.
1
Q From your pos i t i on r i g h t her e ( i ndi cat i ng) di d you
have pr e t t y good observat i on of what was going on t her e? Was
t h i s hi gh ground?
A. I t hi nk it was a mud f l a t , si r .
Q. Right i n her e ( i ndi cat i ng) ?
A. I t hi nk t he whole t hi ng was a mud f l a t , I bel i eve.
Q
How f a r could you s ee beyond t h i s br i dge ( i ndi -
cat i ng) a s f a r as t h i s ar ea her e?
A. I t w a s f a i r l y open. You could s e e between t h e t r e e s ,
t he r e wasn' t much underbrush i n t h e vi l l a ge .
Q -
When you moved down her e, di d you conduct sear ch
oper at i ons?
A. W e were supposed t o si r , but no one di d.
Q. Why?
4 1
APP T-217
A. Because of mines and booby t r a p s .
Q You mean you d i d n ' t s e a r c h any of t h e hut s ?
A. J u s t l ooked in-,-a cur s or y gl ance.
Q Were t h e r e any t unne l s o r bunker s o u t i n t h i s a r e a ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Did you s ear ch any of t hos e ?
A. J u s t l ooked i n t o t h e m, si r.
Q You mean from the t op?
A. They had them b u i l t i n t o t h e sand dunes and t he y
were j u s t l ooked i n t o .
Q Could you see anyt hi ng?
A. No, si r, somewhere o r o t h e r t h e caves w e r e f a l l i n g
i n . I t h i n k some of t h e m mi ght have been blown up.
Q You mean blown up t h a t day?
I t h i n k s o , si r.
MR WALSH: Did you h e a r a l o t of demol i t i ons ?
A. No, si r. I t h i n k I hear d one e xpl os i on whi l e we
were d i r e c t l y a c r os s t h e br i dge .
Q Did any of t h e pl a c e s l ook l i k e t he y w e r e blown up?
Did you see any c i v i l i a n s wounded o r k i l l e d ?
A. No, sir.
Q None a t a l l ?
A. I s a w no c a s u a l t i e s o t h e r t ha n t h a t dead woman.
Q. Where d i d you see t h a t dead woman?
(BRADDOCK) 42
APP T-217
A. A t t he bri dge her e ( i ndi cat i ng) , t h a t we saw i n
t he sand dune, r i g h t i n her e, sir. She was r i g h t of f from t h e
bri dge.
Q
About how f a r from t h e end of t h e br i dge?
A. She was i n t he sand dune, s o it would be about t h e
di s t ance between t he end of t he bri dge and t h i s sand dune--I
don' t know how f a r t h a t i s.
COL WILSON:' Le t ' s put t h a t down as poi nt 7. Observed one
dead woman ;
(LTC NOLL di d as request ed. 1
MR WALSH: Was it your impression t h a t t h e woman had been k i l l e d
by r i f l e f i r e , machinegun f i r e t h a t ni ght ?
A. No, si r , seei ng t h a t t h e hol e wa s s o bi g. We don' t
car r y anyt hi ng t h a t bi g. So we t hought it might have been t he
gunships coming i n.
LTC NOLL: Did you dest roy any of t h e s h e l t e r s o r bunkers t h a t
were i n t a c t duri ng t he day?
A. NO, si r
Q Did you burn any of t h e vi l l a ge s ?
A. No, si r . We were t o l d not t o .
Q. You were t o l d not t o?
A. Yes , sir. \
When were you t o l d not t o?
That day when we got over i n , t he vi l l a ge , si r .
Q- But you were t o l d t o burn 'them bef or e you went out ?
A .
t her e.
t h a t n
Sergeant MCCLOUD t o l d us not t o , when we got over
Because we were going t o s e t 'up an ambush over t he r e
.ght, so he d i d n t t want t o mess t he vi l l a ge up.
Q -
Did you have a pl at oon l kader o r wa s Sergeant
MCCLOUD t he pl at oon l eader ?
A. Sergeant MCCLOUD wa s t he pl at oon l eader .
(BRADDOCK) 4 3 APP T-217
MR WALSH: You d i d n ' t go down and j oi n t he r est of t he company
a t any time dur i ng t he 17t h? You st ayed i n t he a r e a a t t h e
end of t he bri dge and s e t up an ambush t he r e t h a t ni ght ?
A. Yes, si r.
Q How di d you ge t chow?
A. They flew it down t o us , si r . We .were wi t h t h e
weapons pl at oon a l i t t l e e a r l i e r I bel i eve, si r .
Q- Were t he 81 mort ars s e t t her e?
A. I t hi nk t hey di d s e t one up, si r. I don' t t hi nk
t hey st ayed a l l ni ght . I t hi nk we were by our s el ves . We a t
l e a s t moved away from t h e m , s o we had our own peri met er.
COL WILSON: I n ot he r words, you wer en' t secur i ng t he mort ars
t hen? The mort ars wer en' t i n your peri met er?
A. I don' t t hi nk t hey were, si r .
MR WALSH: Lat e i n t he aft ernoon do you remember a Vietnamese
woman wi t h gunshot wounds i n he r f oot and head. She was
brought t o t h e bri dge and someone request ed a dust of f f o r
her ?
A. No , si r. I don' t remember t h a t . Yes, I do si r ,
t h e G I ' s were car r yi ng he r and someone was making comments
about it. 4
Q What were th.e comments?
A. They were l aughi ng a t t h e guys t h a t were car r yi ng
her . I t hi nk it was HOUGHTON and t hey were l aughi ng about
h i s good l ooki ng g i r l f r i e n d , and what a good l ooki ng d o l l
she was.
Q. Where had he found her?
A. I have no i dea, si r.
Q. Was h.e i n t he 3d Pl at oon?
CBRADDOCK) 44
APP T-217
A.
He was i n t he weapons pl at oon, si r .
COL WILSON: What time of day w a s t h i s ?
A. I have no i dea, si r.
MR WALSH: How many c i vi l i a ns di d you s ee around t h e ar eas t h a t
day?
A.
Af t er we had crossed t h e br i dge, si r ?
Q That I s ri gh. t .
A. I s a w none.
Q None at a l l ?
A. None.
Q
Did anybody t e l l you t h a t t hey had seen any?
A. NO, si r .
Q
, I t ake it t h a t your pl at oon t h a t day, a f t e r you
got acr oss t he br i dge, d i d n ' t have much t o do a l l day, i s t h a t
a f a i r st at ement ?
A. ye s , sir.
Q
You coul d ge t a l i t t l e s l eep o r wash?
A. Y e s , si r, washed up and got some s l eep.
Q I ns i de t he hootches?
A. NO, si r . We st ayed where t he r e was more shade--a
l o t of shade down on th.e r i ve r . We would wash and t hen we
would s l e e p f or a l i t t l e whi l e.
Q.
Did you ever hear t h a t any of t h e peopl e i n t h e
pl at oon might have found a g i r l o r two i ns i de of t h e hootches?
A.
I ' d be wi l l i ng t o say t h a t no one di d, si r.
Q.
You' re pr e t t y s ur e of t h a t ; i f t hey had you' d know
about i t ?
4 5
APP T-217
A. Y e s , si r , a l o t of peopl e had bi g mouths.
Q Did anybody i n t h e pl at oon ever f i n d any booby
t r a p s dur i ng t h e day?
A. No, si r , not t h a t I know o f .
MR WALSH: Tha t ' s a l l I have on t h e 17t h.
COL WILSON : You remained t h e r e over ni ght ?
A. Y e s , si r.
COL WILSON: Okay, l et ' s put a t t h e end of poi nt 5. RON.
Now, what happened on t h e mor ni ng' of t h e 18t h?
A. When we got up, s i r , w e went t o t h e ext reme nor-
t he r n t i p of t h e peni ns ul a and s t a r t i n g gat her i ng c i v i l i a n s
and moving them down sout h. A s we go, we would pi ck up more
and more. When we got them down t o t h e c e n t r a l c o l l e c t i n g
poi nt t h e Nat i onal Pol i c e were wai t i ng f o r them.
Q From t h e begi nni ng o r e a r l y i n t h e morning of t h e
18t h, when d i d you con t act t h e company agai n?
A. W e had no cont act w i t h them i n t h e morning, we
d i d n ' t s e e them agai n u n t i l we got back wi t h t h e c i v i l i a n s
t h a t we had c ol l e c t e d.
Q. YOU moved out of her e ( i ndi c a t i ng) is t h a t
c or r e c t ?
A. As f a r as I know, si r , we were t h e onl y ones t h a t
moved i n that di r e c t i on.
LTC NOLL: Where di d you t u r n t h e c i v i l i a n s over t o t h e company?
A. W e had a c ol l e c t i on poi nt a t t h e same coor di nat es
t h a t MILUS w a s k i l l e d .
MR WALSH: Do you r e c a l l wai t i ng a t t h e br i dge u n t i l t hey moved
up t o you o r d i d you move up by your s el f ?
A. W e moved up by our s el ves .
APP T- 217
COL WILSON: Were you di r e c t e d t o move out , o r di d you have
communications that t o l d you t o o r was t h i s j us t something
t h a t was planned t he day before? ..
A. W e knew about i t t he ni ght bef or e.
Q
You knew you were going t o move out t h a t next
morning?
A.
How t hey got t h e word back was probably r adi o
t ransmi ssi on--t here was a he l i c opt e r f l yi ng back between our
pl at oon and back t o t he company, s o when Sergeant MCCLOUD--I
f or get whether he flew back t o t a l k t o them t hen o r what.
Q- You remember t h a t when t h e he l i c opt e r brought i n
your s uppl i es and r a t i ons t h a t ni ght whether he had al r eady
stopped at t he ot her l aager ar ea?
A. Yes, it w a s , sir. I t w a s Colonel BARKER'S chopper,
t he col onel was back wi t h t h e company t hen.
Q
It w a s Colonel BARKER'S chopper and i n ot he r words,
you r e c a l l t h e r a t i on he l i c opt e r came i n and it wa s Colonel
BARKER'S hel i copt er ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. H e went t o t h e l aager a r e a of B Company and whi l e
he was t he r e t h e chopper caiie up and dropped of f your r a t i o n s ,
is t h a t what you r e c a l l ?
A. Yes, sir.
Q And t hen r et ur ned t o t h e l aager ar ea?
A. Y e s , si r.
MR WALSH: W a s Colonel BARKER on t he chopper when he--do you
remember s eei ng him?
A. NO, sir.
COL WILSON: He st ayed i n th.e B Company l aager ?
A. Y e s , si r.
4 7
. ,
APP T-217
Q Is t h a t what you hear d?
A. Yes, si r.
Q
Okay, now you l ef t your l aager a r e a t h a t morning.
Do you remember what t i me?
A. NO, sir.
Q
And you moved t o t h e end of the--what you r e f e r t o
a s t h e peni ns ul a?
A. yes , sir.
Q Using Exhi bi t MAP-4, do you r e c a l l whet her you
moved a l l t h e way t owards t h e end of t h e peak of l and out
her e?
A. W e moved out j u s t below an o l d French f o r t . There
w e r e heavy French bunkers t h a t were up t h e r e , and t h e r e w a s
a v i l l a g e j u s t below it. We s t a r t e d gat her i ng t he r e .
Q Do you r e c a l l a f i s h pond, a l a r ge f i s h pond as
you moved nor t h?
A. N o , I donl , t si r.
Q You r e c a l l moving over some sand dunes?
A. Yes, si r.
Q A coupl e hundred met er s , I gues s , of sand dunes?
A. Yes, si r .
Q
How f a r beyond t hos e sand dunes d i d you go?
A. I be l i e ve si r , everyone w a s compl ai ni ng, because
w e had t o walk s uch a di s t a nc e on t h i s s hor t per i od of t i me.
W e us ua l l y t r a v e l e d 1, 000 met er s and we had t o t r a v e l a t
l east 1, 000 meters and back agai n t o t h e company. There w a s
a f i s hi ng v i l l a g e , I would i magi ne it would be r i g h t i n her e.
Q Yout:re poi nt i ng t o an a r e a c a l l e d An Binh? Let
me ask you one ques t f on, as you moved nor t h do you remember
a second br i dge her e ( i n d i c a t i n g ) , which was demol i shed on
your l e f t ?
APP T-217
A. No, s i r , I don' t r e c a l l .
Q You don' t r e c a l l i t ?
NO, si r.
Q And you don' t r e c a l l t h e f i s h pond?
A. No, si r . The t e r r a i n got pr e t t y t hi c k, t h e f ur t he r
we moved up and i t ' s very easy t o miss.
Q You moved out and you rounded up t he s e people?
What di d you do wi t h them?
A. We s t a r t e d moving them out . Down t o t h e c ol l e c t i on
poi nt wi t h t h e company.
Q Where w a s t he c ol l e c t i ng poi nt , do you r e c a l l ?
A. Not exact l y si r, j u s t where MI LUS wa s k i l l e d ,
Q- Where MI LUS was ki l l e d?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q I f I showed you a 1:50,000 s heet ( Exhi bi t MAP-5)
would t h i s c l a r i f y t hi ngs from t h e time you moved from t h e
bri dge her e, nor t h and e a s t . Ther e' s a major vi l l a ge out
here--there were supposedly a demolished b r i d g , ~ ,sand dunes,
f i s h ponds and houses al ong t h e coas t ?
A. W e d i d n ' t fol l ow t h e coas t always.
Q. You didn"?
A. No, si r.
Q- Could you s e e t h e wat er?
A.
N o , si r , not a t a l l t i mes, we coul dn' t .
Q., These sand dunes were ri ght --general l y i n t h i s
area. D i d anyt hi ng occur i n your movement t o t h e nor t h t h a t
you can r e c a l l ?
A. One chopper w a s f i r i n g .
Where was t h a t , do you remember?
Not exact l y, s i r .
Q. When you crossed t hes e sand dunes, do you remember
a vi l l a ge on the ot her s i de?
A. NO, si r , I don' t .
MR WALSH: You remember i f t he hootches were burned o r had
been burned r ecent l y when you came up t h a t way nor t h?
A. I d i d n t t s ee any houses a t a l l , sir, not until we
l e f t t he coas t and went i nl and, we s t a r t e d going through some
vi l l a ge s .
Q. Were t hey burning?
A. No, si r, t hey were completely i n t a c t .
Q. Is t he r e anyt hi ng you can r e c a l l t h a t day t aki ng
pl ace on a l ocat i on ba s i s out i n t h i s ar ea?
A. No, si r, t hos e l i t t l e vi l l a ge s a l l l ook a l i k e when
you get i n t o them.
Q
But you say you do r e c a l l MILUS ge t t i ng ki l l e d?
A. Y e s , si r , that was t h a t ni ght .
Q. Nothing duri ng t h e day? How many vi l l a ge r s di d you
round up t h a t day?
A. I have no i dea s i r , I imagine i t w a s a t l e a s t 500.
Q Five hundred? Do you remember where t h e c ol l e c t i on
poi nt was? Was i t down on t h e beach?
A. It wa s down on t he beach--we had passed t h e ar ea.
It pas s i bl y could be over her e si r , it was s o sandy t he r e .
(BRADDOCK] 50 APP T-217
Q. You mean you passed t he c o l l e c t i o n poi nt goi ng
and came back t o it, i s t h a t what you mean?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Did you move i nl and i n t he v i c i n i t y of t h a t col -
l e c t i o n poi nt or had you al r eady gone i n t h e r e by t h a t t i me,
because t h a t wa s on t he c oa s t ?
A. The c o l l e c t i o n poi nt was r i g h t on t he beach. They
had t he v i l l a g e r s a l l s i t t i n g on t he beach. There was a f i s h-
i ng v i l l a g e r i g h t t h e r e and s o we came back and t ur ned our
pr i s one r s i n. Then we went t o our ni ght pos i t i ons .
Q . W a s t h a t ver y f a r from t he c o l l e c t i o n poi nt ?
A. No, si r, t hey were r i g h t next t o each ot he r .
Q And you s e t up a per i met er t h a t ni ght ?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. You remember a medi cal team coming i n , gi vi ng
medi ci ne?
A. N o , si r. Once we dropped our pr i s one r s of f we
went back t o our pos i t i on and we d i d n ' t s ee them a t a l l .
Q. You d i d n ' t have any i de a why a l l t he peopl e were
bei ng rounded up?
A. W e l l , t hey would e i t h e r be rounded up f o r i n t e r -
r ogat i on o r j u s t making arrangement s t o move them o u t , because
a s I under st ood it t h e r e was a mi ssi on t h a t we were supposed
t o perform and g e t t he peopl e t oge t he r and move them out .
Q. How f a r we r e you from MILUS when he wa s k i l l e d ?
A. About 30 meters.
Q , Thi r t y met er s?
A. Y e s , si r.
(BRADDOCK) 51
APP T-217
Q. Were you on s e c ur i t y watch o r were you--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Yes, si r , I was on watch when t h e
round came i n .
Q . Did you see where t h e rounds came from?
A. Only smal l arms f i r e , si r .
Q You s a w s m a l l arms f i r e ?
A. Yes, si r .
Q. Which d i r e c t i o n were you f aci ng i n t h e per i met er ?
A. I w a s f aci ng nor t h.
Q. You were f aci ng nor t h and you were s t i l l i n t h e
dunes?
A. Yes, sir.
Q . Was t h e sea t o your r e a r ?
A. N o , si r, t h e s e a w a s t o my r i g h t .
Q.
The s e a w a s t o your r i g h t and you were f aci ng
nor t h? Did t h e f i r i n g begi n bef or e t h e mor t ar rounds came
i n or--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Yes, si r .
Q I n o t h e r words, t he r e w a s s mal l arms f i r e ?
A. yes , si r , t h e smal l arms s t a r t e d and t he n it seemed
i n a matter of seconds t h e mor t ar rounds h i t . So appar ent l y
t hey dropped them i n t h e t ubes and s t a r t e d t o f i r e t o cover
it. The f i r s t round h i t behi nd me and t he n t h e second h i t
r i g h t i n MILUS1s hol e , and t hey kept moving t h e f i r e down t h e
sand dunes.
Q. Did it appear t h a t t h e pos i t i on wa s ver y f a r from--
APP T-217
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) The smal l arms f i r e seemed no more
t han 300 meters. Thi s w a s our l a a ge r pos i t i on- - I t hi nk t h e
smal l arms f i r e was coming from over i n he r e , over i n t h i s
t h i c k e t her e. I t seems t o be where t h e f i r e was coming from,
r i g h t i n t h i s ar ea. It s t a r t e d t o widen a l i t t l e b i t and
t h e r e w e r e a l o t of trees t he r e s o t hey coul d have been dropp-
i ng t h e i r mor t ar s over from t h e woods and cover i ng wi t h smal l
a r m s r i g h t down on the beach from us.
Q Did you hear of a p a t r o l goi ng o u t and f i ndi ng
t h a t mor t ar pos i t i on t h a t next day?
A. Y e s , sir.
COL WILSON: N u m b e r 8 r i g h t her e. On 8. Cannot r e c a l l
l oc a t i on. Moved approxi mat el y 500 v i l l a g e r s t o t h e c o l l e c t -
i ng poi nt , wa s approxi mat el y 50 met er s from MILUS when k i l l e d .
Recal l s s m a l l a r m s f i r e pr ecedi ng mor t ar a t t a c k. Do you
remember what t i m e on t h e 19t h you l e f t and went back t o t h e
f i r e base?
( Exhi bi t P-19 0 was e nt e r e d i n t o evi dence. )
A. I be l i e ve it was around 0700 o r 0800.
Q Do you r e c a l l which f i r e base you went t o ?
A. I t hi nk w e went back t o Dot t i e , si r.
MR WALSH: Bef or e you l e f t t o go back t o Dot t i e , do you
r e c a l l s eei ng any Nat i onal Pol i c e , ARVN' s i nt e r r oga t i ng de-
t a i ne e s ?
A. No, s i r , t h e Vietnamese--the ARVN' s were wi t h us
and we were gi vi ng them food and t hey were j oki ng around.
Q. How l ong had t hey been wi t h you?
A. I have no i dea. The f i r s t t i me I s a w them was i n
t h e morning.
&. J u s t t h e morning?
You r ean w e r e th.ey wi t h us j u s t i n t h e morning?
(BRADDOCK] 53
APP T-217
Q. Y e s .
A. Y e s , si r .
Q You ever s e e o r hear about any of t h e ARVN' s t o r -
t u r i n g PW's?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. W e l l , di d you s ee i t ?
A. No, sir.
Q What d i d you hear about i t ?
A. I hear d t h a t t hey hooked a l and l i n e up t o him and
s hot some e l e c t r i c i t y t hrough it.
Q Through h i s t e s t i c l e s ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Did you hear of any o t h e r forms o f per s uas i on
t h a t t hey were usi ng t h a t morning?
A. Tha t ' s t h e onl y one I know o f .
9. But you d i d n ' t s e e it your s e l f ?
A. No, sir.
Q. I
1
You remember who t o l d you about i t ?
A. St eve MILLER, si r.
Q. Do you remember h i s squad?
A. No, si r , he w a s i n t h e weapons pl at oon. He had
been a member of my squad bef or e we l e f t Hawaii.
Q . Did you e i t h e r see o r hear about any o t h e r i ns t ances
of mi st r eat ment of PW's o r c i v i l i a n s dur i ng t h e cour s e of t h i s
oper at i on?
54
; . FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
APP T-217
A. No, s i r , ot her t han an i nt e r pr e t e r smacked some
lady.
Q
That was t he 1st day, how di d t h a t happen? When
di d t ha t happen?
A. The 1st day ..
Q On t he 1st day.
A. Yes, si r.
Q
Was t h a t i n t he l aager a r e a of B Company?
A.
No s i r , t h a t was when we were sear chi ng t h e vi l -
l age.
Q-
Thi s was t he i n t e r p r e t e r t h a t was wi t h Li eut enant
JOHNSON?
A. yes , sir.
Q H e sl apped her ?
A. Yes, si r.
Q a
Was anyt hi ng more t han t h a t done o r d i d he do any
ot he r physi cal damage ot her t han s l a p her .
A.
I don' t t hi nk so s i r , t hey t o l d us t o l eave t h e
a r e a anyway.
Q
Af t er you observed them sl appi ng t h e woman?
A.
Well, no mat t er when you went up t he r e , t hey wanted
t o keep t he G I I s away from them.
Q
But on t h i s occasi on you were cl os e enough t o Lieu-
t enant JOHNSON and t h e i n t e r p r e t e r t o s e e t h e i n t e r p r e t e r s l a p
her ?
A. Yes, si r.
Q
How f a r away were you from them?
APP T-217
A. Ten yar ds , si r.
Q.
Did you hear at any t i me--di d you he a r about any
method of ope r a t i on, o r way i n which members of t h e 1st Pl a-
t oon were checki ng bunkers which r e s u l t e d i n a l o t of peopl e
bei ng k i l l e d dur i ng t h e second day?
A. I hear d about it a month l at er .
Q What di d you hear ?
A. I hear d t h a t t hey c a l l e d i n t h e bunkers f o r them
t o come o u t , and i f t hey d i d n ' t t hey t hrew expl os i ves i n t he r e .
Q
Did you hear t h i s about any p a r t i c u l a r el ement of
t h e Ist Pl at oon?
A. ,The poi nt t eam, si r.
Q - Did you ever hear anyt hi ng about anybody o t h e r than
t h e poi nt team?
A. ' N o , si r , I d o n ' t t hi nk so.
Q And you di dn ' t hear about t h i s u n t i l a month a f t e r
t h i s oper at i on?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q D i d you hear a t t h e same t i m e o r a t any o t h e r t i me
any estimate as t o how many c i v i l i a n s had been k i l l e d as a
r e s u l t of t h i s ?
A. Forty-two i s what I hear d.
Q. You hear d 4 2 ?
A. Not 42 c i v i l i a n s - - t h a t ' s where t h e company had
got t e n a body count on t he oper at i on.
Q. A l l r i g h t , my ques t i on was d i r e c t e d more t o an e s t i -
mate of t h e number of c i v i l i a n s who mi ght have been k i l l e d
i n t he bunker s as a r e s u l t cf t h e poi nt team dr oppi ng expl osi ves?
A. No, sir. I d i d n ' t hear about it. w\. -., ,
Q - YOU heard t h a t t hey had followed t h i s pr a c t i c e ,
but you di dn' t hear any es t i mat e of t h e number of peopl e
k i l l e d doing i t ?
A. NO, sir.
Q - Af t er you got ext r act ed back t o Dot t i e di d you
hear anything about an i nves t i gat i on bei ng conducted i n t o
t he oper at i on of Task Force Barker a t t h i s time?
A. NO, s i r .
Q. Did anyone ever quest i on you about your a c t i v i t i e s
duri ng t h e oper at i on?
A. NO, si r.
Q Did you ever hear about anybody i n t h e company
bei ng quest i oned about t he oper at i on?
A. No, si r . The only t hi ng I heard was t h a t one of
our commanding o f f i c e r s had t al ked t o t h e company commander
and that ' s a l l I heard.
Q. When you say you heard one of t h e s eni or of f i c e r s
had t al ked t o your company commander, what di d you under-
s t and t he conversat i on was about?
I
A. Act ual l y what it poi nt ed t o was some combat
we had had bef or e, where a l ar ge body count was accumulated.
I bel i eve it was General LIPSCOMB. H e came i n and com-
mented t o t h e company commander t h a t t h e body count looked
a l i t t l e unr eal and t he company commander was a l i t t l e
t i cked- of f about it, because t he r e was really--we had run
i n t o a hard-core VC ba t t a l i on.
Q. What I ' m t r yi ng t o ge t t o i s what you heard about
t h e company commander bei ng spoken t o about t h i s oper at i on?
A. I bel i eve it was s o r t of a l l combined.
Q. A l l r i g h t now, when di d you hear about t h e company
having claimed a body count of 42?
(BRADDOCK) 57 APP T- 217
A. I never hear d it, si r . I never even knew t h e com-
pany t o r e a l l y t ur n i n a body count . I never saw a r e por t o r
hear d anyt hi ng- of any o f f i c i a l numbers.
Q
Did you s e e o r know about any VC t h e company k i l l e d
t h a t day?
A. NO, si r.
Q
O r any day dur i ng t h e oper at i on?
. . I
A.
I hear d j u s t bef or e t h e oper at i on w a s over--t he
f ol l owi ng morning, bef or e we l i f t e d o f f , t h a t t hey had caught
s i x s ni pe r s o r had k i l l e d s i x s ni pe r s .
A t your per i met er ?
A. N o , s i r , t h e s ni pe r s s o r t of had a l i t t l e bas e
camp set up and the i nf or mat i on t hey had got t e n o f f of one of
t h e pr i s one r s l e d them t o t h i s bas e camp.
Q Who went i n t he r e ?
A. I don' t know, s i r .
i Q. W a s it your company?
A. I t hi nk s o, si r .
Q.
Did you e ve r hear anyt hi ng about an i nve s t i ga t i on
bei ng conduct ed i n t o t h e oper at i on of C Company dur i ng
t h i s oper at i on?
A. ye s , si r.
Q What di d you hear ?
A. That one of t h e he l i c opt e r p i l o t s had r e por t e d
t h a t t hey were doi ng unnecessary s hoot i ng, t h a t ' s t h e l a s t
I hear d of it.
58
APP T-217
Q - You remember who you heard t h a t from?
A. No, si r , t he rumor. j u s t f l as hed around t h e com-
pany e
Q Did Captain MICHLES or anyone ever t e l l you or
t he people i n your squad not t o t a l k about i t , or not t o t e l l
war s t o r i e s about t h i s oper at i on. That it was bei ng i nve s t i -
gat ed?
A. No, sir.
Q - Can you t hi nk of anyt hi ng t h a t we haven' t asked
you t h a t might be of hel p t o us i n t h i s i nves t i gat i on. That
you haven' t t o l d us al ready?
A. No , I c a n ' t t hi nk of anyt hi ng e l s e , sir.
LTC NOLL! For your mode of oper at i on a t t h e end of t h e day' s
oper at i on, were you ever gat hered t oget her and br i e f e d on
what happened t h a t day and what w a s going t o be done t h e next
day?
A. My u n i t si r, no, sir.
COL WILSON : Did you have a camera?
A. Yes, si r, but I never took any fi l m.
Q. You never took any of any oper at i on?
A. No, sir.
Q= Do you know anybody t h a t di d?
A. Not at th. at t i me, si r .
Q- Do you have any s o r t of documents, o r t a pe record-
ings, or letters, o r anyt hi ng which would r e c a l l , o r which
would be pe r t i ne nt t o this pa r t i c ul a r oper at i on and t h i s i n-
ves t i gat i on?
A. I don' t bel i eve s o, si r .
Q W e l l , i f you g e t back and i f you f i n d o u t , and
i f you run acr os s anyt hi ng l i k e phot ographs o r anyt hi ng l i k e
t h a t , would you gi ve us a r i n g and we w i l l t r y t o make ar r ange-
ments t o g e t t h e copi es of i t , and gi ve them back t o you.
Anything t h a t can gi ve us a b e t t e r i n s i g h t i n t o what happened
dur i ng t h i s per i od.
A. No s i r , I ' m ver y s ur e . I was very c a r e f ul not
t o w r i t e any wa r s t o r i e s .
Q. Sometimes peopl e wr i t e l e t t e r s a f t e r t hey come o u t
of t h e f i e l d t h a t may he l p f i x t i m e s and da t e s . Was t h e r e any
change of t echni ques , o r methods of ope r a t i on, or t a c t i c s of
B Company a f t e r t hi s oper at i on? ,
A. Wel l , t h e whole company s t a r t e d t o f o l d up. Peopl e
were s t a r t i n g t o get - - ol der peopl e we br ought wi t h us , and
w e were sl owl y l os i ng them and peopl e j u s t got di s gus t ed be-
f or e t hey l e f t f o r t h e f i e l d . Went on s i c k c a l l , came back
wi t h p r o f i l e s , put i n f o r t r a n s f e r s .
Q Was Capt ai n MICHLES s t i l l t h e r e when a l l t h i s
w a s goi ng on?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q What was t h e r eason f o r t h i s ?
A. A t t hi s t i me when w e went i n t o My Lai we w e r e a new
u n i t and by t h a t t i me everybody wa s di s gus t ed w i t h t h e f i el d- -
Q ( . I nt er posi ng) I n ot her words, t h e s i t u a t i o n under
which you were worki ng, where everybody was di s gr unt l e d about
i t ? Is t h a t what you mean?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q Did t h i s oper at i on have anyt hi ng t o do wi t h i t ?
A. I doubt it, s i r , unl es s it was t h e wounded w e t ook.
TAYLOR wa s a ver y popul ar man and s o wa s MILUS and I know t h e
group t h a t MILUS used t o hang around wi t h a l l t h e time--as soon
as w e went hack t hey s t a r t e d goi ng on sick c a l l . d i d n ' t want
t o go t o t h e f i e l d anymore. And t h e poi nt team di sbanded af t er
TAYLOR l o s t h i s f oot .
(.BRADDOCK ) 60
APP T-217
Q D i d t hey g e t anot her poi nt team t oget her ? What
, di d t hey do?
A. N o sir. The o r i g i n i a l poi nt team were vol unt eer s
anyway and af t er t hey f ol ded up t hey c oul dn' t f i n d anybody
who wanted t o go back t o bei ng on t h e poi nt team.
Q. What about t h e t a c t i c s , were t h e r e any changes i n
t a c t i c s o r w a s t h e r e anymore r e s t r a i n t on B Company per sonnel
t han t h e r e had been be f or e , or less r es t r ai nt - - your freedom of
a c t i on about t h e same a s f a r as squad l e a de r s w a s concerned?
A. No si r , it wa s about - - di f f er ent t ypes of t act i cs
' we r e br ought i n . I n o t h e r words, t h e company w a s g e t t i n g s o
s m a l l by t he n, we w e r e working more on squad l e v e l and pl a-
t oon l e v e l , r a t h e r t han goi ng out on l ong mi ssi ons f o r t h e
company.
Q No change i n r u l e s as f a r a s you' r e concerned a s
engagi ng the enemy and s o f or t h?
A. No, sir.
Q N o change i n r u l e s i n how t o sweep t h e vi l l a ge s ?
A. No, sir.
Q. NO change i n r u l e s of bur ni ng?
A. No , sir.
Des t r uct i on of food s t oc ks ?
A. NO, sir.
Q. Same pr ocedur es?
A. Y e s sir, no change.
Q Did t h i s oper at i on, a f t e r you came o f f of it, appear
t o be any d i f f e r e n t from any o t h e r oper at i on t h a t you' ve con-
duct ed?
61
APP T-217
A. O t h e r t han t he peopl e t h a t w e r e l o s t . To m e it
was a c t ua l l y ki nd of a quiet t hi ng. A s I said, I saw one
body t he whole t i me and t h a t wa s t h a t wo ma n . Or di nar i l y we' d
go out and g e t i n a l i t t l e hot f i r e f i g h t and g e t a few body
count s , but t h i s one was a c t u a l l y p r e t t y q u i e t .
Q ~ u t you ' i d l os e an abnormal number of per sonnel
on t h i s ope r a t i on, o r wa s it t h e key peopl e t h a t was l o s t ?
A. I t hi nk it wa s more t h e key peopl e, because not
t oo l ong bef or e we had l o s t q u i t e a few peopl e. I know we
l os t a . l o t of our s e ni or NCO' s .
CE Back a t t he t i m e you were a t t h i s br i dge. Had
t he s e gunshi ps made one, o r t wo, o r how many passes- - f l yi ng
passes? Would you have expect ed t o f i nd some bodi es a s a
r e s u l t of t hos e pas s es ?
A. Y e s , si r , or di nar i l y- - wel l no, I c a n ' t a c t ua l l y
say t h a t si r , because weapons a r e such a funny t hi ng. You
can dr op a b i g bomb i n t h e middle of a c i t y and walk i n and
f i nd two dead bodies,. And t h a t ' s t h e way our weapons a r e .
Sometimes t he y are ver y e f f e c t i v e when you t hi nk t hey woul dn' t
be, and sometimes when t hey shoul d be, t hey we r e n' t .
Q Do you know i f t h e r e was any s ear ch made t o f i n d
any bodi es as a r e s u l t of t hos e f l y i n g pas s es ?
A. W e l l , t h e normal s ear ch p a t t e r n s , w e had them.
W e would go i n and s ear ch f o r weapons and food caches and i f
t h e r e we r e bodi es w e would f i n d them t hen.
Q Thi s a r e a wa s sear ched t he n, r i g h t a f t e r t h a t t i me?
A. Y e s , sir.
LTC NOLL: On t h e 1 7 t h you s pent t i m e i n t h e a r e a acr os s t h e
br i dge when t h e r e s t of t h e company w a s worki ng s out h, would
it be r easonabl e t o expect you t o hear t h e demol i t i on char ges
goi ng o f f ?
A. Y e s , sir,
(BRADDOCK) 62
APP T-217
Q . Did you hear any?
A. One, sir.
Q J u s t one?
A. And everybody pal d a t t e n t i o n t o t h a t because of
t h e mines--we w e r e more concerned about mines and we t hought
maybe somebody e l s e had got t e n it, t h a t ' s as f a r a s I can
remember.
Q Demol i t i ons were s e t of f two g r i d s quar es away,
2, 000 meters, would you hear t h a t ?
A. Unl ess you your s el f were f i r i n g your weapons, you
would hear it.
COL WILSON: Do you know i f t h e r e w a s any use of mar i j uana i n
B Company?
A. Yes, si r, t h e r e wa s .
Q. Was it a problem?
A. It got t o be a f t e r awhi l e, si r .
Q. Was it a problem be f or e or a f t e r t h i s oper at i on?
A. W e l l , I would say it wa s about t h e same--the peopl e
t h a t we began t o have problems w i t h w e r e us i ng it bef or e and
some just s t a r t e d . And it became more and more f r e e and eas y
t o get hol d of and t hen we had some o r our r epl acement s con-
s t a n t l y smoking it a l l t h e t i me.
Q. Your r epl acement s?
A. The r epl acement s whi ch w e were g e t t i n g i n .
Q. D i d t hey smoke on oper at i ons ?
A. I wa s p r e t t y s ur e some of them d i d , I coul d never
c?tch t h e m, but I was p r e t t y s ur e a l o t of them were.
@G~?LDDOCK~ 6 3
APP T-217
Q Would you al l ow t hi s i n your squad?
A.
W e l l , I had t r oubl e w i t h a coupl e of peopl e and
we had a t a l k . I t o l d t hen I would have t o t u r n them i n un-
less t hey st opped it.
Q On oper at i ons ?
A. No, not on oper at i ons , i n base camp.
Q And it di d become a problem?
A. Y e s , s i r , w e had some peopl e t h a t were moved out
of t h e company because of it.
Q. You di d? How were t hey moved? Admi ni s t r at i vel y
o r by c our t - ma r t i a l ?
A.
They were t r a ns f e r r e d t o ot he r units--you r e a l l y
coul dn' t cat ch them, h u t you knew t h a t t hey were.
Q
. . Did you have any d e t a i l s o n t he s e mar i j uana us er s ?
Do you know where t hey were g e t t i n g i t ?
A.
You can g e t it anywhere over t he r e .
Q. You know about how many we're t a l k i n g about , out
of a company s t r e n g t h of about 120 men?
A. Out of 120 I ' d say t h e r e w e r e 10 t h a t smoked a l l
t h e t i m e wd probabl y 80 per cent were a t l e a s t t r y i n g it whi l e
t hey were over t he r e .
Q. Are t he r e any ot he r na r c ot i c s bei ng used by per -
sonnel i n the uni t ?
A. I d i d n ' t see any, sir.
Q Do you have any f u r t h e r t est i mony o r any f u r t h e r
s t at ement s that might a s s i s t us i n t h e i nve s t i ga t i on?
A. Maybe s i r , s i nc e you asked i f I had hear d about
the t a c t i c s the 1st Pl at oon used. When I hear d about it a
f r i e nd of mine wa s on the poi nt team and we were t a l k i n g
64
APP T-217
about it and he deni ed i t - - as f a r as he j u s t s a i d t hey blew
up some bunkers. But as f a r as he knew t h a t ' s a l l t hey di d.
They c a l l e d i n and asked t he peopl e t o come out and t hey did-
n ' t s e e anyone, so t hey blew up t h e bunkers.
Q Who was t ha t ?
A. Donald HOOTON.
Q Was t h i s poi nt group a pr e t t y rough crowd?
A. They had a r eput at i on of bei ng r e a l l y wi l d, t hey
di dn' t l i k e t aki ng or der s from t h e NCO' s and o f f i c e r s . They
were cons t ant l y goofing o f f , and messing around, and hor si ng
around mostly. They wer en' t goofing o f f , but everybody j us t
t hought t hey were crazy because t hey were t h e onl y peopl e
i n t he company t h a t would vol unt eer f o r a poi nt team.
Q What wa s t h e i r lodgevity? Did t h a t poi nt team
change personnel very of t en?
A. No, sir.
Q It seems ki nd of odd doe s n' t i t ?
A. They l i ke d it, sir. They di dn' t l i k e t h e pl at oon
l eader and t hey d i d n ' t l i k e t h e pl at oon s er geant t hey had.
Q. They didn ' t a l l - come from t h e same pl at oon?
A, Yes, si r .
Q They di d? Who was t h e pl at oon l e a de r a t t h a t t i me?
A. Well, Li eut enant SPRAGGINS had been t h e pl at oon
l eader , t h a t ' s when it w a s a c t ua l l y p a r t of t h e 1st Pl at oon.
Then Li eut enant WILLINGHAM came i n and he d i d n ' t have any
confi dence t o t r u s t hi msel f. And he st ayed away from t h e
1st Pl at oon as much as pos s i bl e.
Q. As I r e c a l l Li eut enant WILLINGHAM hadn' t been t he r e
very long?
A. No , sir.
(BRADDOCK ) 65
Q Is t h i s normal , f o r per sonnel i n a u n i t l i k e t h a t
t o have a gr een l i e ut e na nt t o come i n and d i d n ' t have any
r e s pe c t for him , i n i t i a l l y ?
A. W e l l , he posed t h e image of t h e t ype of man t h a t
you woul dn' t want t o go i n t o combat wi t h. Whether he had 2
year s . . o r 2 . weeks.
Q. How about these repl acement o f f i c e r s t h a t came i n?
A. W e l l , t hey va r i e d, some w e r e good and some were
bad.
Q W e l l , j u s t because a guy" r epl acement i s wi t hout
combat experience--does a man l ook a t him r i g h t away and s ay
t h a t t hey don' t t r u s t him?
A. Wel l , we t h. ought he was s o r t of a f l op.
Q You meln WI LLI NGHAM. Now I ' m speaki ng a s a whole?
A. He i s n ' t t h e ki nd of a guy t h a t you want t o go t o
t h e b a r and dr i nk wi t h.
Q. What about t h e ot he r s ?
A. The ot he r r epl acement s, s i r ?
Q. Yes?
A. Most of t h e m were p r e t t y good peopl e. The maj or i t y
of them w e r e p r e t t y good peopl e.
COL WILSON: How many o f f i c e r s were i n t h e f i el d- - t he company
commander and t w o pl at oon l e a de r s and t h e b a t t e r y commander?
A. W e had our company commander and a t t h a t t i m e , we
went out t o My L a i we had a Li eut enant WI LLI NGHAM and Li eut enant
COCHRAN and we had a pl at oon FO.
Q I am goi ng t o r e que s t you not t o di s c us s your t e s t i -
mony i n t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on wi t h ot he r s , i ncl udi ng o t h e r wi t nesses,
except as you may be r equi r ed t o do s o bef or e a compet ent j udi ci al !
l e g i s l a t i v e o r a dmi ni s t r a t i ve body. You under st and what I mean
by t h a t ?
(BRADDOCK) 66
APP T-217
A. Y e s , sir.
Q You a r e not t o di s cus s it, but i f you a r e c a l l e d
bef or e a Congressi onal committee o r bef or e anot her board of
t h i s t ype, t he warning i s n ' t i n e f f e c t . I t is j us t t h a t we
don't want you t o di s cus s i t wi t h ot her wi t nesses o r anybody
who i s going t o appear bef or e t h i s board, o r t h e pr e s s , o r
t h e publ i c, i t ' s j us t a pr i va t e mat t er , okay?
A. Y e s , si r.
I
COL WILSON: The heari ng w i l l r eces s .
(The hear i ng recessed a t 1232 hour s, 23 January
1970.)
APP T-217
WITNESS: BROOKS, Tommy L.
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT 16-19 MARCH 1968: Gr enadi er , Second Squad,
Thi r d Pl at oon, B/ 4/ 3.
The wi t nes s came from Hawaii wi t h t h e 11t h Bri gade
(pg. 2 ) .
He d i d not r e c a l l any t r a i n i n g bei ng gi ven on
t he l e g a l i t y of or der s and he d i d not r e c a l l ~ x h i b i t s M- 2
and M-3 (pg. 2 ) .
The wi t nes s coul d not r e c a l l bei ng b r i e f e d on t he
oper at i on by h i s squad l e a de r , who would normal l y pas s
down i n s t r u c t i o n s from t h e pl at oon l e a de r (pgs. 3 , 4 ) . Most
of t h e oper at i ons of t he u n i t w e r e s ear ch and des t r oy, and
t he wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t normal pr ocedur es w e r e t o be used
on t h e oper at i on (pgs . 4 , 5) . The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d bei ng
t o l d t he area was a VC s t r onghol d (pg. 5) . They were t o
gat her t h e v i l l a g e r s and s ear ch t h e v i l l a g e (pg. 5 ) .
3. ASSAULT OPERATIONS.
a. Ac t i v i t i e s on 16 March.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d Li eut enant COCHRAN t r i g g e r i n g
t h e mine and s a w a s l i c k evacuat e him (pgs. 6 , 7 ) . A
medevac t ook t h e ot he r s out (pg. 7 ) . The wi t nes s d i d not
recall any o t h e r act i vi t i es t h a t day ( pgs. 6- 8) .
(BROOKS) 1 SUM APP T-272
The wi t nes s di d not r e c a l l TAYLOR h i t t i n g a booby
t r a p o r any o t h e r a c t i v i t y t h a t day, ot he r t han f i ndi ng r i c e
i n a des er t ed v i l l a g e , which t hey s e nt o u t ( pgs. 1 0 , 11).
c . Ac t i v i t i e s on 18 March.
The wi t nes s remembered roundi ng up a number of
Vi et namese, but d i d not r e c a l l any medics coming i n (pgs. 12,
1 3 ) . H e remembered ARVN s o l d i e r s bei ng pr e s e nt t h a t ni ght
al ong wi t h two det ai nees ( pgs. 13, 1 4 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t a t
2000 hour s , whi l e on guar d, t hey were h i t by mor t ar s (pg. 1 4 ) .
The f l a s h wa s 250 met er s away (pg. 1 5 ) . The c a s u a l t i e s were
evacuat ed and "Spooki e" and gunshi ps came i n (pg. 15) .
The wi t nes s knew not hi ng about any i nve s t i ga t i on, and
hear d no rumors concer ni ng t h e unnecessary k i l l i n g of
c i v i l i a n s (pg. 17) .
The wi t nes s di d not know of a mar i j uana problem i n
t he unit (pg. 1 7 ) .
(BROOKS) SUM APP T-272
EXHIBITS
EXHIBIT
C
( BROOKS )
SUM APP T-272
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 1645 hour s, 29
Januar y 1970. )
COL. WILSON: The hear i ng w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng named per sons a, re pr es ent : MR WALSH,
COL WILSON, LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
The next wi t nes s i s M r . Tommy L. BROOKS.
(MR BROOKS was c a l l e d a s a wi t nes s , was sworn, and
t e s t i f i e d as f ol l ows : )
W i l l you pl e a s e s t a t e your f u l l name, occupat i on,
and r es i dence?
A. Tommy Le e BROOKS, 149 Br i ght S t r e e t , J e r s e y Ci t y,
New J er s ey.
RCDR: And your occupat i on?
A. Dr i ver f o r a t r ucki ng company.
COL WILSON: M r . BROOKS, have you di s cus s ed t h i s ope r a t i on
wi t h anybody i n your company s i n c e coming over from Vietnam?
A. No, I haven' t .
Q You r ead Exhi bi t M-81 which we gave you wi t h t h e
i nf or mat i on f o r wi t nes s es on t he pr ocedur es t h a t we w i l l us e
f o r t h e i nt er vi ew. You under st and t h a t t h i s i s an i nt er vi ew
t e a m which i s p a r t of t h e Peer s I nqui r y. The t e a m i s composed
of mysel f , M r . WALSH who i s t h e c i v i l i a n a t t or ne y appoi nt ed by
t he Se c r e t a r y of t h e Army t o assist General PEERS, and Col onel
NOLL who i s a me mb e r of t h e t e a m. The t h r e e of us have t h e
a ut hor i t y t o ques t i on you f o r Gener al PEERS. Major THOMAS i s
t he r ecor der f o r t h i s i nt er vi ew team. Any me mb e r of General
PEERSf t e a m a l s o has t h e a ut hor i t y t o ask ques t i ons . I f t he r e
are any que s t i ons i n your mind, ask and 1'11 i d e n t i f y t h e m t o
you.
What wa s your dut y assi gnment on 16 March 1968?
A. I c a n ' t remember where I wa s t h a t e xa c t d a t e , b u t
dur i ng t h e month of March I w a s a gr enadi er .
Q You w e r e i n t h e 3d Pl at oon?
A. Y e s .
(BROOKS) 1
APP T-272
Do you remember which squad?
Q.
A. I t hi nk it was t he second squad, I ' m not sur e.
Q- Who wa s your squad l eader , remember?
A. Sergeant BRADDOCK, I bel i eve.
Q Do you r e c a l l bei ng given any t r a i ni ng anytime i n
your mi l i t a r y s er vi ce which was concerned wi t h t he l e g a l i t y of
or der s?
A. No, sir.
Q. That i s , l e ga l and i l l e g a l or der s , o r anyt hi ng on
t h a t s ubj e c t a s t o whether every or der you r ecei ved, whether
you coul d quest i on as t o whether o r not it was l e ga l ?
A. No.
Q. I ' l l s h w you Exhi bi t M-2 which i s t i t l e d , "Nine
Rules. " I t ' s a MACV card.&, That ' s a f acs i mi l e, f r ont 'and
back. Have you ever seen t h a t car d?
A. No, I haven' t seen ? car d l i k e t h i s one.
P
Q. Exhi bi t M-3 i s t i t l i r d , "Enemy i n Your Hands. "
Have you ever seen t h a t car d?
t
A. No, I ' m not s ur e , but onl y t hi ng I coul d remember
w a s t he languages. Engl i sh language was t r a ns l a t e d i n t o Vi et -
namese.
Q. ' And di d you remember t he card?
A. No, I don' t know t he card.
Q Were you a t t he 11t h Brigade p r i o r t o its coming
from Hawaii?
A. Yes, from Hawaii.
Q Do you r e c a l l from t he i nformat i on s heet t h a t we
gave you out l i ni ng t he chr onol ogi cal sequence of quest i oni ng?
(BROOKS) 2 APP T-272
The f i r s t series of ques t i ons concer ni ng t he oper at i on would
be concerned wi t h t h e b r i e f i n g t h a t you r ecei ved p r i o r t o t he
combat a s s a u l t . Now bef or e as ki ng you any ques t i ons on
t h a t , I want you t o be s ur e t h a t i t ' s c l e a r i n your mind which
oper at i on w e ' r e t a l k i n g about . Do you remember t he oper at i on
t h a t t ook pl ace on 16 March?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember it.
Q. Do you remember when Ser geant TAYLOR, Ser geant
MILUS, o r Li eut enant COCHRAN w e r e wounded o r k i l l e d ?
A. Y e s , yes. Y e s , I remember it.
Q - Do you remember t h a t oper at i on?
A. Y e s .
Q. Then t h a t ' s t h e one w e ' r e t a l k i n g about . I know
you went t hr ough a l o t of ope r a t i ons , and I j u s t want t o be
s ur e t h a t i t ' s c l e a r i n your mind which one we' r e t a l k i n g
about . You we r e a t LZ Upt i ght ?
A. Y e s .
Q. On 15 March o r e a r l y i n t h e morning of 16 March,
you shoul d have got t e n e i t h e r a b r i e f i n g o r f i e l d or de r , some
i nf or mat i on t h a t you w e r e goi ng t o go on a mi ssi on, a combat
a s s a u l t ope r a t i on of t h e 16t h. Do you r e c a l l who t o l d you
about i t ?
A. No, I c a n ' t r e c a l l . No, I c a n ' t recal l t h a t I
saw anyt hi ng about it.
Q. I ' m speaki ng of . such t hi ngs a s somebody' s got t o
s ay, "We' re goi ng down i n t o Pi nkvi l l e , w e ' r e goi ng t o t ake 3
days ' r a t i o n s , o r 1 da y' s r a t i o n s , w e ' r e t o t a ke ammunition,
we' ve g o t t o have t h i s , and be s ur e and t ake your s l e e pi ng bag,
o r don' t t a ke your s l e e pi ng bag, " and t h i s s o r t of t hi ng. Who
t o l d you about t h i s ? Regul ar pr eoper at i onal b r i e f i n g ?
A. I f anybody t o l d us about an i nt er vi ew, ithad t o
be my squad l e a de r , b u t I c a n ' t remember him t e l l i n g me about
it.
Q.
Normally t hough, h e ' s t h e one who gi ves itt o you?
(BROOKS)
APP T-272
Y e s , he g e t s it from t h e pl at oon l eader .
Q And he pas s es i n s t r u c t i o n s down t o h i s squad?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q And you don' t remember any i n s t r u c t i o n s on t h i s
oper at i on?
No, not t h i s p a r t i c u l a r one.
Q Do you remember, r e c a l l , anyt hi ng bei ng di s cus s ed
about t h e de s t r uc t i on of v i l l a g e s , t he t ype ope r a t i on t h i s was
supposed t o be?
A. No, b u t most l y on our oper at i ons we would s ear ch
and des t r oy.
Q. You t hi nk t h i s was a s ear ch and de s t r oy oper at i on?
A. W e l l , yes , w e al ways di d away wi t h it.
.Q Dest royed?
. ..
A. Y e s .
Q- Was t h e r e anyt hi ng s p e c i a l s t a t e d about t he pro-
cedur e t o be used i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on?
A. No'.
Q How about ani mal s?
A. Not a s f a r a s I know of .
Q. Any s p e c i a l i n s t r u c t i o n s on what t o do wi t h t h e
na t i ve s of t he s e v i l l a g e s ?
A. No.
Q. J u s t normal pr ocedur es?
A. No .
(BROOKS) 4
APP T-272
Nothing s pe c i a l ?
0
Yes.
Q - Do you understand o r were you t ol d what t he enemy
s i t u a t i o n w a s i n t h i s ar ea?
A. Yes, it was supposed t o be a VC st ronghol d o r some-
t hi ng. We knew t he r e was pl ent y of VC t he r e from a br i e f i ng,
you know.
Q. Previ ous oper at i ons?
A - Yes. We were t her e bef or e.
Q. There were no s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons on v i l l a g e r s ,
nat i ves , peopl e, what t o do wi t h them?
A. Well, it was t h i s , t o s epar at e t he v i l l a g e r s , put
them a l l i n one pl ace and t hen sear ch t he vi l l a ge .
Q. Do you know what your squad was supposed t o do wi t h
r ef er ence t o t h e ot her squads i n t he pl at oon?
A. No, si r.
Q. Did you have a machinegun at t ached t o your squad?
Y e s .
Do you know who t he gunner was?
I bel i eve it was Sergeant MAHR.
Q Sergeant MAHR? .
A. Y e s , M-A-H-R. I ' m not s ur e, but I bel i eve it was.
Q- A l l r i ght . - Now, can you remember anyt hi ng e l s e
about t he br i e f i ng, o r i ns t r uc t i ons you got ?
A. No.
(BROOKS ) APP T-272
Q. ' Now, what weapon were you armed wi t h?
0
A. A grenade l auncher. A . 4 5 , a l s o.
Q Did you have ammunition f o r t he grenade l auncher?
A. Yes, si r .
Q- Le t ' s go t o t he oper at i on. I ' l l gi ve you a s hor t
rundown on what we t hi nk happened, and t hen we ' l l s t a r t through
each day, and s ee i f you' ve got any addi t i onal i nformat i on t h a t
you could provi de us.
(COL Wilson or i ent ed t he wi t ness on t he oper at i on
usi ng MAP-4. )
Now, from your s t andpoi nt , do you r e c a l l when you
went i n , i f t he r e was any f i r i n g on t he ground?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember. There was a Li eut enant
COCHRAN h i t .
Q L e t me g e t a couple more quest i ons on t he l andi ng
zone. You d i d n ' t hear any f i r i n g on t he l andi ng zone?
A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l it.
Q. Do you remember moving out t o t he nor t h? Now t h i s
w a s bef or e COCHRAN got it. Do you remember moving nort h wi t h
your pl at oon, when you l e f t t he l andi ng zone?
A. No.
Q
Do you 'remember cr os s i ng t he t r a i l bef or e COCHRAN
was h i t ? Do you remember a bi g ga t e over a t r a i l t h a t had some
wr i t i ng acr os s it, Vietnamese wr i t i ng acr os s t he t op of i t ?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember where Li eut enant COCHRAN was ki l l e d?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q- How f a r were you from him when he t r i gger ed t h i s
mine?
(BROOKS ) 6
APP T-272
A. About 50 meters, I guess.
Q. Did you s e e t he evacuat i on s h i p come i n t o pi ck
him up?
A. Y e s , I di d.
Q. Was it a dus t of f o r was it a s l i c k ?
A. I t wa s a s l i c k .
Q - Did you see the ot he r group when t hey h i t t he mine.
A. No, I d i d n ' t see them.
Q- Did you hear t h e expl os i on?
A. Y e s , I hear d t h e expl osi on.
Q Did you see t h e evacuat i on s h i p come i n and pi ck
up t hos e c a s u a l t i e s ?
A. Y e s .
Q. W a s t h i s a marked h o s p i t a l s hi p, wi t h a r ed c r os s ?
A. Y e s , wi t h a r ed c r os s , si r.
Q. I t had a r ed c r os s on it. Do you recal l what
happened a f t e r t h a t ? Did you s t a y t h e r e o r di d you s ear ch
any v i l l a g e s , or what happened?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember anyt hi ng a f t e r t h a t .
Q You don' t remember s ear chi ng?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember l i nki ng up wi t h Cha r l i e Company
t h a t ni ght ? Do you remember Cha r l i e Company coming i n ? Set -
t i n g up a l a a ge r pos i t i on?
A. No.
Q. Do you remember any ARVN coming i n , o r Nat i onal
Pol i c e , o r U.S. Mi l i t a r y I nt e l l i ge nc e i nt e r r oga t or s ? Do you
(BROOKS ) 7
APP T-272
remember seei ng any of them around t he peri met er t h a t ni ght
o r t h a t aft ernoon?
A. NO, not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q. About t h a t evening. Was t he r e any f i r i n g o r di d
you hear any smal l arms f i r e i ns i de t he peri met er? Or ' out s i de?
A. No.
Q- There was not hi ng t h a t you can r e c a l l t h a t happened
t h a t ni ght t h a t you would remember?
A. No. Like I s a i d , normally I can remember, but then
I was wounded i n October.
Q- W e l l , a t about t he same t i m e or possi bl y r i g h t
bef or e he had been mined, di d you hear any f i r i n g going on
over t he r e toward t he sea?
A. No.
Q
Did you see Colonel BARKER come i n t o t he pos i t i on?
A. No, I di dn' t .
a. A t any t i m e di d you t hi nk t h a t you were ge t t i ng
s ni per f i r e from t he vi l l a ge ?
A. No. A s I can remember, I know most every time we
went t o t h a t v i l l a g e we always got s ni per f i r e , but I c a n ' t
remember t h a t pa r t i c ul a r morning.
Q. Did you s ee anybody from Char l i e Company s t ayi ng
i n t h a t l aager pos i t i on?
A. No.
Q The next day you moved t o t he c oa s t , toward t he
sea. Do you remember t h a t ?
A. That's t he road?
Q. Tha t ' s your l aager pos i t i on. You moved on t h a t
road toward t he s ea r i g h t over t he br i dge down t he r e .
A. I was i n t he l aager cl os e t o t he wat er , but I
don' t know what day it was on.
Q Do you remember hear i ng some f i r i n g down t he r e and
coming t o a h a l t on t he t r a i l ? Stopping and hol di ng up?
A. No, sir. No, I c a n ' t remember it.
Q Thi s was about what t i m e , about 0810? This i s
where TAYLOR h i t t h a t booby t r a p , apparent l y on t h e bri dge.
Maybe you don' t remember TAYLOR, Sergeant TAYLOR?
A. No, I can' t remember it.
Q He h i t t he booby t r a p , t hen t hey got some s ni per
f i r e . That was t he r epor t . Do you remember f i r i n g over a
r i v e r i n t o an ar ea on t he ot he r s i de of t h e , r i v e r , , o r do you
remember your pl at oon f i r i n g l i k e t h a t ?
A. No, not c l os e t o a r i v e r .
Q Do you remember cr os s i ng a concr et e bri dge?
A. No.
Q With some mines marked on t he ot her s i de?
A. .Mines marked?
Q Taped o f f , so you won' t s t e p on them.
A. No.
Q Well, our r e por t s i ndi c a t e t he 3d Pl at oon crossed
over and with t he 81 mort ars st ayed i n t h i s gener al v i c i n i t y
out t he r e by t he ocean ( i ndi c a t i ng on MAP-4) .
A. No, i f t hey were t he r e , I can" t remember.
Q. The r e s t of Bravo Company moved over , j oi ned t he
1st Pl at oon and moved sout h whi l e t he 3d Pl at oon st ayed up
t her e by t h e br i dge i n t h a t gener al ar ea. The company moved
sout h and d i d n ' t j oi n you agai n t h a t day. You a l l s t ayed up
t her e by your s el f .
(BROOKS) 9
APP T-272
On a h i l l t o p , o r somet hi ng, o r what?
Q No, you' r e r i g h t t he r e by t he br i dge, o r I ' d s ay
wi t hi n 150 meters of t he br i dge. You set up a ni ght pos i t i on
t h a t ni ght and s t ayed t he r e . I don' t t hi nk you had a h o t meal
t h a t ni ght . Hel i copt er s a l l e ge dl y came back wi t h some chow,
C r a t i ons , pr obabl y.
A. N o , t h e onl y t i m e I can remember j oi ni ng t he weapons
pl at oon i s on t op of a h i l l o r somet hi ng.
Q. On t op of a h i l l ?
A. Y e s .
Q
Then you say t h e mor t ar pl at oon was n' t t h e r e t h a t
ni ght ?
A. I ' m not s ayi ng t hey wer en' t t he r e .
Q You don' t remember them bei ng t he r e ?
A. No.
Q. Do you r e c a l l t h e day you cr os s ed t h e br i dge? Do
you recal l moving nor t h and put t i ng a cordon acr os s t h a t s p i t
of l and?
A. No.
Q. Pos s i bl y 500 met er s rl ort h?
A. No.
Q Bravo Company moved s out h, a l l t h e way down. You
may have hear d someone t a l k i n g about it. I t ' s a p r e t t y l ong
walk. They came back up and went i n t o l a a ge r pos i t i on. You
s t ayed by your s e l f . Do you remember t h a t day s e e i ng anybody
come i n i n a he l i c opt e r ? Spe c i f i c a l l y, any Vi et namese i n t e r -
pr e t e r s ?
A. No, they came i n so much, I c a n ' t remember what
day i t . w a s t h a t he came i n .
(BROOKS) APP T-272
Q. I d o n ' t t hi nk you got a hot meal t h a t ni ght . You
coul d have got t e n a r esuppl y, pos s i bl y of ammunition and ex-
pl os i ve s , and you coul d have got t e n some r a t i o n s i n. But any-
way, on t h e 18t h, it was r epor t ed t h a t 3,000 pounds of r i c e
w a s found up t h e r e near where you we r e . I t w a s a t 0755 hour s.
That wa s pr obabl y be f or e t he r e s t of t he company got up t he r e .
A. Y e s , I remember f i ndi ng a l o t of ri ce, and I remem-
b e r a br i dge t h a t w a s i n f r o n t of t he pl ace where we found t h e
rice.
Q. How was i t ? Where w a s i t ?
A. I n a bas ket .
Q More t han one bas ket o r one bas ket ?
A. Basket s a l l over t h e pl ace.
Q - Basket s of rice around t he r e . Was it i n t he v i l -
l a g e o r was it out ?
A. Y e s , i n a des er t ed v i l l a g e .
Q W a s it hi dden o r r i g h t o u t i n t h e open?
A. No, it wa s i n t h e open, ki nd of conceal ed.
Q. What?
A. Kind of conceal ed, b u t not a good j ob.
Q W a s t h e r e an at t empt t o conceal i t ?
A. Y e s .
Q - Was it i n a house?
A. Some of it wa s . Some of it wa s i n back of t he
house.
Q- Do you know what happened t o t h e r i c e ?
A. Y e s , I t hi nk w e bagged it up o r somet hi ng, and we
shi pped it out , and t h e h e l i c o p t e r came i n and t ook it out .
11
APP T-272
!
Q. They came i n t o evacuat e i t ?
A. Yes.
Q * , The company got t oget her . I don' t know exact l y
what t he format i on was, but t hey moved from t he br i de pos i t i on
where you were. They moved on t o t he nort h on up t he s p i t
r i g h t by t he ocean t he r e and i n t o a vi l l a ge , a f a i r l y l a r ge
vi l l a ge , up i n t h a t a r e a , and s t a r t e d t o round up a bunch of
Vietnamese from out on t h e c oa s t a l ar ea. More t han maybe 500
t o 600 and up t o 1, 000 Vietnamese were rounded up up t her e
and brought back t o t he beach. Do you remember t h a t ?
A. I remember t ha t .
Q
A whole bunch of ~i e t n a me s e . A couple of vi l l a ge s
up 'back i n t her e. These peopl e were brought back t o t he beach.
Do you remember rounding t hes e people up?
A. Y e s .
Q. You remember t aki ng them back t o t he beach?
.J
A. Not t h a t ni ght , I don' t t hi nk. !
Q What happened t o them when you rounded them up?
Thi s would have been dur i ng t he day.
A. We put them i n one l ocat i on, and a f t e r w e had f our
of them t oget her , you know, f our of t he Vietnamese t oget her , we
s a w one o r two farmers. Thi s was about 500 met ers away.
Q. Yes?
A. Then t h a t ni ght we got h i t .
Q. Did you s e e t he medical teams i n t he r e t h a t day
wi t h t hes e Vietnamese you s e n t down t her e?
A. I c a n ' t remember t ha t .
Q Do you remember t h e he l i c opt e r s coming i n br i ngi ng
some medics? Medical equipment? These people bei ng t r e a t e d
f o r whatever problems t hey had? What was c a l l e d a MEDCAP? Did
you know about t ha t ?
(BROOKS) 12
APP T-272
A. No, I c a n ' t remember medics coming i n . I not i ced
some h e l i c o p t e r s coming i n t h a t day.
Q
You got t hrough roundi ng t he s e peopl e up, and toward
dar k, as it got l at er t h a t day, d i d you come back and set up a
per i met er ?
A. Y e s .
Q -
Do you remember s e e i ng any Vietnamese i n t h a t pe r i -
m e t e r , ARVN, any s t r a nge r s , mi l i t a r y i n t e r p r e t e r s , i nt e r r oga t or s ?
A. Y e s , of cour s e, w e had capt ur ed one o r two. One o r
two wa s wi t h us t h a t day.
Q =
A r e t he s e de t a i ne e s o r are t he s e ARVN per sonnel ?
A. Det ai nees.
Q.
How many de t a i ne e s di d you have t h a t ni ght ?
A. I coul d remember two, I bel i eve.
Q. Two?
A. One o r two.
Q -
Where w e r e t hey? Were t hey i n your pl at oon o r were
t hey somewhere e l s e ?
A. They we r e wi t h t h e CP.
Q -
They w e r e wi t h t h e CP? Did you see any ARVN s o l d i e r s
up t h e r e wi t h t h e CP?
A.
Oh, yes , we kept one o r two wi t h us a l l t he t i m e , a s
i n t e r p r e t e r s .
Did you know any of t he ARVN s o l d i e r s ?
A. Y e s , I knew some, b u t I di dn' t - -
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) By name?
A. No, I di dn' t know them by name, I know them by f ace.
(BROOKS)
13
APP T-272
Q- Were t h e r e some i n t h e a r e a t h a t ni ght ?
A. Y e s . A t l e a s t one o r two t he r e , I ' m s ur e , i n t e r -
p r e t e r s .
Q. Did you s e e any s t r a nge U.S. t ypes t h a t you d i d n ' t
know, who wer en' t i n Bravo Company, t he r e ?
A. St r ange?
Q. W e l l , I mean s o l d i e r s o r o f f i c e r s t h a t had come i n ,
who you di dn' t know?
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) Peopl e t h a t wer en' t as s i gned t o
Bravo Company?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember.
Q La t e r t h a t ni ght , you a l l got h i t . How many rounds
d i d you ge t ?
A. I was on guar d t h e t i m e w e got h i t . Thi s must have
been around 1900 o r 2000, I guess. Af t e r t h a t we g o t s mal l arms
f i r e .
Q. Did you see t h e muzzle b l a s t s , or--
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) Muzzle f l a s h , yes .
Q. How f a r w a s i t ?
A. About 200 meters, maybe 250.
Q. And t he s mal l arms f i r e came i n a f t e r t h e mor t ar
rounds? ,
A. Ri ght .
Q.
And evacuat i on s hi ps came i n and g o t t h e c a s ua l t i e s ?
A. Oh, yes , s ur e.
(BROOKS) 1 4
APP T-272
Q How f a r was MILUS from you?
A. Oh, MI L US w a s 25 t o 30 f e e t .
Q Feet ?
A. I s a i d met er s , d i d n ' t I?
Q. No.
A. Twent y-fi ve o r t h i r t y met er s . I w a s on t h i s s i d e
of t he per i met er ; he was on t he ot he r s i de .
Q The he l i c opt e r s came i n and t ook t h e c a s u a l t i e s
out . Now ' e a r l i e r t h a t day, d i d you s e e t he a r t i l l e r y coming
i n t o t hos e v i l l a g e s ?
A. N o , I c a n ' t remember no a r t i l l e r y .
Q. Did you he a r of a n o l d woman wi t h h.er l e g o f f ?
Wounded, bei ng evacuat ed?
A. No.
Q- A f t e r t he mor t ar f i r e , do you r e c a l l a i r c r a f t
f l y i n g around?
A. Oh, yes , t h e r e w e r e f l a r e s up a l l ni ght .
Q Ai r c r a f t , o r from your mor t ar s?
A. No, not from t he mortars. I t was from t h e a i r c r a f t .
Q. W a s t h i s fi xed-wi ng o r he l i c opt e r ?
f
A. I t hi nk it was fi xed-wi ng. I t hi nk it was "Snoopy,
Snoopy1'--
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) "Spooky"?
A. Yes, "Spooky."
Q Did anyt hi ng else occur t h a t n i g h t t h a t you can
r e c a l l ?
A. I remember gunshi ps coming i n also.
(BROOKS) APP T-272
' Q. A l o t of f i r i n g ?
A. Y e s , a l o t of f i r i n g .
Q
Do you recal l a ny detainees, any-' -i t was onl y t w o
t h a t you r e c a l l bei ng t here--do you remember if t hey were m i s -
t r e a t e d o r not ?
A. N o t hey we r e n' t mi s t r eat ed.
0- They w e r e not ?
I
A. No.
MR WALSH: Di d you he a r anyt hi ng about t he 1st Pl at oon a c t i on
t he f i r s t day?
A. No.
Q
Did you he a r any t a l k about what t h e i r body count
wa s ?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember.
Q
Do you remember s e e i ng any bodi es on t h i s oper at i on?
A. Y e s , I s a w some bodi es , a t l east one, t h a t w a s MILUS.
Q. All r i g h t . Do you remember anyone he a r i ng of a
Vietnamese woman?
A. No.
COL WILSON: Do you remember g e t t i n g an or de r any t i m e dur i ng
t h e day, it would have been on t he l a t h , I gues s , t o s t o p t h e
bur ni ng? St op bur ni ng t he v i l l a g e s ?
. .
A. No , I c a n ' t remember.
Q
Do you remember any t i m e s e e i ng any Navy s hi ps bei ng
o u t t h e r e on t h e wat er ?
A. No, I hear d some t a l k i n g about t h e i r s hi ps bei ng out
t he r e , b u t I d i d n ' t s p e c i f i c a l l y see them.
(BROOKS) 16
APP T-272
Q . Did you hear anyt hi ng t h a t t hey had br ought i n
some Vietnamese i n sampans?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember. I ' m not s ur e , si-r.
Q
Do you have any knowledge of any i nve s t i ga t i ons or
any i n q u i r i e s t h a t w e r e conduct ed on t h i s oper at i on p r i o r t o
t he t i m e t h a t you l e f t Vietnam?
A. No.
Q. Nobody asked you any ques t i ons ?
A. No.
Q- Did t hey ask anybody you know any ques t i ons ?
A. No.
Q. You d i d n ' t s ee anybody back a t Dot t i e o r Upt i ght
ques t i oni ng peopl e about t h i s oper at i on?
A. No.
Q Did you e ve r hear any rumors t h a t c i v i l i a n s had
been unneces s ar i l y k i l l e d by any of B/4/3 o r C/1/20?
A. No.
Q. Were you ever t o l d t o not di s c us s a t any t i me U.S.
o r ARVN per sonnel t o r t u r i n g VC s us pe c t s o r pr i s one r s of war?
A. No.
0.
Do you know i f ' t her e was any mar i j uana problem i n
B/4/3?
A. Not t h a t I know of .
Q. M r . BROOKS, have you any f u r t h e r t est i mony o r any
s t at ement s t o make t h a t mi ght assi st us i n t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on?
No, I t hi nk t h a t I s a i d ever yt hi ng t h a t I know.
Q N o f u r t h e r s t at ement s ? I r e que s t t h a t you not
di s c us s your t est i mony i n t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on wi t h o t h e r s ,
(BROOKS) APP T-272
i nc l udi ng o t h e r wi t n e s s e s ,
t o do be f or e a compet ent j
t i o n s on t h a t ?
except t h a t whi ch
u d i c i a l or l e g i s l a t i v e
you may be
body.
r equi r ed
Any ques-
A. No.
COL WILSON: W e a p p r e c i a t e your coming. The h e a r i n g w i l l r e c e s s .
( The h e a r i n g r e c e s s e d a t 1713 hours, , 29 J anuar y
1970. )
SUWRY OF TESTIMONY
WITNESS: CARTER, David S.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 17 Januar y 197Q
-COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Pl at oon l e a de r , 3d Pl at oon,
( Hos pi t al i zed) ,B/4/3.
1. PRIOR TRAI NI NG I N RULES OF LAND WARFARE.
M r . CARTER coul d not r e c a l l s p e c i f i c a l l y any c l a s s e s
on t he Rul es of Land Warfare o r t he Geneva Conventions
i n Hawaii. However, t he b a t t a l i o n may have r ecei ved a class
p r i o r t o embarkat i on ( pgs. 7, 8 ) . I n Vietnam, t hey r ecei ved
t r a i n i n g on t he pr oper handl i ng of PW's. Pr i s oner s were t o
be t agged and bl i ndf ol ded p r i o r t o bei ng s e n t back f o r
i nt e r r oga t i on (pg. 8 ) . Ci vi l i a ns were gat her ed t oget her
dur i ng a sweep and sear ched. Af t er compl et i ng t he sweep,
t hey w e r e f r eed. However, itw a s common p r a c t i c e f o r them
t o accompany t he m i t dur i ng a sweep (pgs .1 2 , 13) .
I f a woman o r a nonmi l i t ar y- age male r an, no a c t i on
was t aken. However, i f a mi l i t ar y- age male r a n, a warni ng
s h o t was f i r e d and " h a l t " w a s hol l e r e d bef or e s hoot i ng
him (pg. 1 4 ) . B/4/3 per sonnel were ver y f a mi l i a r wi t h t h i s
pr ocedur e (pg. 15) .
B/4/3 reconned by f i r e i n uni nhabi t ed a r e a s i f t h e
company commander acqui esced (pg. 1 6 ) . Capt ai n MICHLES
w a s adamant t h a t B/4/3 t r oops were not t o s hoot i nnocent
c i v i l i a n s (pg. 22). CARTER cannot remember s eei ng any
document e n t i t l e d "Rules of Engagement" (pg. 11). I t was
not unusual t o r ecei ve or der s t o burn v i l l a g e s i n t he
Batangan Peni ns ul a o r " Pi nkvi l l e " a r e a s ( pgs. 17, 18, 19) .
The f i r s t t i m e t hey oper at ed i n t he peni ns ul a t hey w e r e
i n s t r u c t e d t o k i l l t he ani mal s and throw them i n t o t he
w e l l s (pg. 21) .
(CARTER) 1 SUM APP T-173
CONFIDENTIAL
SUM APP T-173
by t h e wi t nes s (pg. 2 9 ) .
c. Mari j uana usage was wi despread i n B/4/3. CARTER d i d
not t hi nk t h e r e w a s any connect i on between mar i j uana usage
and w a r cri mes (pg. 39) .
d. Although CARTER d i d not t hi nk WILLINGHAM w a s a
good pl at oon l e a de r , t h e wi t nes s di d not be l i e ve t h a t
WILLINGHAM was capabl e of murderi ng i nnocent c i v i l i a n s
( pgs. 26, 4 1 ) .
( CARTER) 3 SUM APP T- 1 7 3
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
NUNBEK DESCKTPTl ON
._
NOT'j!: S PAGES
-_ ._ -.-_ _._ __ ... __ __
JTF Barker loq., 1 6 March VC KIAcredi t ed t o 1
-
M-14 I1968 b/ 4/ 3 read t o w i t .
-- --.. .-. ----. .---- --. . . ---. . -.-- ----
-----I-
p i t does not
. ~ _ + - 1 ~ _ 1 ~ . ! ~ _ b i _ 1 ! ~ _ e - g . - . allega- . BBINGER'S
4 SUMAPPT-173
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
(Th.e hear i ng reconvened a t 0912 hours., 17
January 1970.)
COL WILSON: The heari ng w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR: The fol l owi ng named persons ar e pr es ent : COL E
WILSON, LTC NOLL and MAJ THOMAS.
The f i r s t wi t ness i sM r . David S. CARTER.
(MR CARTER, was c a l l e d as a wi t nes s , was sworn,
and t e s t i f i e d as . fol l ows:)
RCDR: Pl ease st at eyour f u l l name, occupat i on, and
resi dence.
A. David Stokes CARTER. I ' m a s t udent a t t h e
Uni versi t y of Cal i f or ni a, Ri ver si de, and my r esi dence i s
4212 Eldorado, Ri ver si de, Cal i f or ni a 92501.
COL WILSON: M r . CARTER, bef or e proceeding with any quest i ons
I would l i k e t o inform you of s ever al mat t er s. The Peers
Inqui ry was di r e c t e d by t h e Secr et ar y of t h e Army and t h e
Chief of St af f of t he Army f o r t h e purpose of det ermi ni ng
f a c t s and making recommendations concerning t h e My Lai ( 4 )
i nci dent of 1 6 March 1968.
I n conducting h i s i nves t i gat i on General PEERS
determined itwa s necessary t o have a complete i n s i g h t
i n t o t he ove r a l l ground and ai r oper at i ons i n t h e e n t i r e
Son My vi l l a ge ar ea duri ng t h e per i od 16-19 March 1968.
He t he r e f or e appoi nt ed t h i s board, r e f e r r e d t o as i nt e r -
view team C, t o quest i on personnel of B/4/3 and prepare
a complete des cr i pt i on of t he u n i t oper at i ons.
General PEERS may be expect ed t o come i n at
any t i m e duri ng t h i s i nt er vi ew, o r any of h i s group.
Your testimony w i l l be t aken under oat h. A
verbat i m t r a n s c r i p t w i l l be prepared. A t a pe recordi ng i s
bei ng made i f i addi t i on t o t he . verbat i mnot es taken by t h e
r epor t er .
(CARTER) 1 APP T-173
Although t h e gener al c l a s s i f i c a t i o n of t h e re-
por t w i l l be c onf i de nt i a l , it i s qui t e pos s i bl e t h a t t he
testimony i n t he f ut ur e may become a mat t er of publ i c record.
During t h i s i nt er vi ew t h e board w i l l follow a
chronol ogi cal sequence of quest i ons. The f i r s t s e r i e s of
quest i ons w i l l be concerned wi t h t r a i n i n g j u s t p r i o r t o and
a f t e r a r r i v a l i n Vietnam. The second concerns t h e br i e f -
i ng j u s t p r i o r t o t he combat a s s a ul t , and t h e next s e r i e s
w i l l be concerned wi t h t h e oper at i ons . The f i n a l quest i ons
w i l l be concerned wi t h any i nves t i gat i ons o r i nqui r i e s
i nt o t he t as k f or ce oper at i on duri ng t h a t per i od.
We recogni ze t h a t you were i n t h e hos pi t a l
duri ng t h i s per i od, and we w i l l desi gn our ques t i oni ng
wi t h t h a t i n mind. F i r s t , I would l i k e t o as k, where
di d you l os e your arm?
A. I l o s t my arm on a h i l l known as 74, which
i s about 2 ki l omet ers sout h of LZ Upt i ght . On t hi s . map
it appears t o be gr i d 733824.
COL WILSON: The wi t ness r ef er r ed t o Exhi bi t MAP-4. What
da t e was t h i s ?
A. .19 J ul y 1968.
Q When you went t o t he hos pi t a l , j u s t p r i o r t o
16 March, you di d r e j oi n t h e company a f t e r you came out
of t he hos pi t al ?
A. Y e s , s i x.
Q - How l ong were you i n t h e hos pi t al ?
A. I was i n t he hos pi t a l , t o t he b e s t of my know-
l edge, about 2 weeks.
Q What was t he purpose of t ha t ?
A. Shor t l y bef or e, e i t h e r t h e 14t h o r 15t h, we
were moving of f a h i l l , and I s l i pped going down t h i s
h i l l , and i n t r yi ng t o keep from f a l l i n g down, I grabbed
a limb and wrenched a muscle i n my back. I st ayed i n
(CARTER) 2 - APPT-173
t he f i e l d f or about anot her 8 hours bef or e I was f i n-
a l l y evacuat ed t o t he hos pi t a l .
Q What was your assignment a t t he t i me you went
t o t he hos pi t a l ? ,
A. A t Lhe time I went t o t he hos pi t a l my assi gn-
ment a s pl at oon leader--to be a pl at oon l eader of t he 3d
Pl at oon, B/ 4/ 3, 11t h Brigade, Americal.
Q Which was p a r t of Task Force Barker a t t he t i me?
A. Which was a p a r t of Task Force Barker. However,
duri ng t h a t oper at i on we were not under t he command of
Task Force Barker. We were back under our o r i g i n a l command,
t he 4/ 3 command.
Q- Which oper at i on a r e you r e f e r r i ng t o ?
A. I ' m r e f e r r i ng t d an oper at i on t h a t was a bat -
t a l i on sweep.
Q I f it's out of t he Pi nkvi l l e complex--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) Yes, w e l l out of the Pi nkvi l l e
complex.
Q Now, when you r et ur ned t o t he u n i t , t o t he company,
2 weeks a f t e r you l e f t t he hos pi t a l , di d you go back t o
t he same assignment as pl at oon l eader ?
A. No, I didn t. When I came back we had a repl ace-
ment. Li eut enant LEWIS had ar r i ved whi l e I had been i n
t h e hos pi t a l . He had my pl at oon i n t he i nt e r i m and t he r e
was about fi ve--t hi s is very fuzzy, somewhere i n t he neigh-
borhood of a week from t he time I came back and t he time
I l e f t t o go on R&R. I went on R&R, and when I came back
from R&R I took over t he 2d Pl at oon of t he same company,
which was i n poor shape.
Q. What do you mean it was i n poor shape?
(CARTER) 3
APP T-173
A. They had a bunch of r epl acement s. They di dn ' t
have any d i s c i p l i n e a t a l l i n t h e pl at oon. They wer en' t
even bot her i ng t o car r y some of t h e r e a l l y e s s e n t i a l sup-
p l i e s . I remember one p a r t i c u l a r t ime-- I don ' t remember
t h i s s p e c i f i c a l l y . It was t o l d t o me a s hear s ay. They
had t o borrow claymores bef or e t hey went out on ambush,
and f o r a pl at oon i n Vietnam, t h i s i s s or r y shape. I t ' s
r i di c ul ous .
COL WILSON: Let me have t h e morning r e por t s f o r B Company.
I ' m goi ng t o r e f e r t o Exhi bi t R- 4. The morning r e por t of
15 March shows t h a t you were at t ached t o 2d Sur gi c a l Hos-
p i t a l , Chu Lai . The morning r e por t of 11 March c a r r i e s
Second Li eut enant LEWIS at t ached as of t h a t d a t e , EDCSA
9 March. On t he 21s t of March, t h e morning r e por t i ndi cat ed
t h a t you a r r i ve d back a t t h a t uni t . That ' s not ver y l ong.
A. Tha t ' s not 2 weeks. It seemed l i k e 2 weeks
t o me.
Q - It a t t a c he s you. The e nt r y i s , "At t ached per sonnel
a r r i ve d, at t ached from USARV Pa t i e n t Cas ual t y Company pendi ng
EDCSA. " And t hen on 26 March t h e morning r e por t pi cks
you up as pr e s e nt , as s i gned.
A. The di f f e r e nc e may have been due t o--I had a
p r o f i l e when I got out of t h e h o s p i t a l , and I was goi ng
t o go back out t o t h e f i e l d and Col onel BARKER would not
l e t m e go o u t t he r e , i n t he f i e l d . I q o t it waived i n a
coupl e of days a f t e r I came back. That may have been p a r t
of t h a t f i gur e . I d o n ' t compl et el y under st and morning
r e por t s . I was a pl at oon l e a de r .
Q 9 Now, as I under st and i t , Li eut enant LEc l I S
d i d not t a ke over your pl at oon p r i o r t o your goi ng t o
t he h o s p i t a l .
A. No. He d i d n ' t .
Q-
And al t hough t he morning r e por t pi cks him up
a s pr e s e nt on 11 March, you d i d n ' t meet him bef or e goi ng
t o t h e h o s p i t a l ?
4 APP T-173
A. I di dn' t . He must have st ayed back t o the
r e a r o r something.
Q We have you r et ur ni ng from R&R, Tokyo f o r 5
days, her e on 17 Apr i l , and t hen you took over t he 2d
Pl at oon. M r . CARTER, bef or e you depar t from Washington
I ' m going t o ask Major THOMAS t o gi ve you a good debr i ef -
i ng on wi t nesses, personnel t h a t you remember. We ' ve got
a r os t e r . We're having a very d i f f i c u l t t i me l ocat i ng
people. You may be abl e t o gi ve us an i de a of t he l ocat i on,
where we might be abl e t o f i nd some of t hes e people.
A. The only person t h a t I know s p e c i f i c a l l y , and
I don' t have h i s address w i t h me , i s Li eut enant MUNDY.
Q Li eut enant MUNDY? But you do have h i s address?
A. I do have h i s address , and I ' 11 be more t han
happy t o g e t it t o you.
Q You can have our phone number and c a l l us. Us -
ua l l y, we can f i nd t he of f i c e r s e a s i e r t han we can t he en-
l i s t e d men, because t hey have b e t t e r records o r l e s s records.
W e have s o many addresses f o r t he e n l i s t e d men once t hey
a r e di scharged. A t any r a t e , we '11 gi ve you a debr i ef i ng
on wi t nesses t o see i f we can possi bl y move a l i t t l e f a s t e r
on l ocat i ons . What was t he normal procedure t h a t Capt ai n
MICHLES used f o r t he prel i mi nary br i e f i ng of h i s company
p r i o r t o an oper at i on?
A. He br i e f e d t he pl at oon l eader s . H e usual l y got
them a l l t oget her and t o l d them what wa s happening. Gave
us a l l the c ur r e nt poop. Where we were goi ng, who was
going t o do what. It wa s no formal , f i v e paragraph f i e l d
or der , but it was-- j u s t about ever yt hi ng was i n t her e.
Q. Did you normally, when you moved out on a bat -
t a l i o n oper at i on o r a t as k f or ce oper at i on as opposed t o
a company o r a pl at oon oper at i on, know how l ong you were
goi ng t o be i n t he f i e l d ?
A. No, w e d i d n ' t . W e were told a c e r t a i n e s t i ma t e .
One day i n Febr uar y w e w e r e t o l d no-t t o t a l c e any b e d r o l l s .
W e w e r e onl y goi ng t o go out f or t h e a f t e r noon, and we w e r e
o u t f o r 6 days.
Q What d i d you do f o r b e d r o l l s ?
A. La t e r on, about t h e f o u r t h day, t he y w e r e fl own
i n t o us . The 1st Pl at oon d i d n o t go o u t . They went
back t o Do t t i e and pi cked up a l l our s t u f f and br ought
it o u t t o us .
Q So, nor mal l y i f you w e r e goi ng t o s t a y o u t , you
would t a k e your b e d r o l l s . Is t h a t c o r r e c t ?
A. Y e s , si r . Febr uar y i s t h e c h i l l y p a r t o f t h e
ye a r .
Q Would you say a s a r u l e , when you went on t h e
t a s k f o r c e o p e r a t i o n , and I ' m s peaki ng of two o r more com-
pa ni e s , t h a t you d i d nor mal l y take b e d r o l l s .
A. I f you w e r e goi ng t o s t a y o u t f o r a coupl e o f
days, y e s , you t ook b e d r o l l s .
Q. W a s t h e r e any SOP i n Bravo Company on wear i ng
of f l a k j a c ke t s ?
A. Ther e was f o r a whi l e . For a s h o r t p e r i o d o f t i m e
Capt ai n MICHLES wr ot e an SOP, o r t h a t a ppa r e nt l y came down
from t a s k f o r c e . I ' m not s u r e , b u t f o r a whi l e it wa s man-
da t or y t h a t ever yone wear flak j a c ke t s . Thi s wa s f o r a cer-
t a i n pe r i od. Then a f t e r t h a t , i f you di dn' t want t hem you
coul d t u r n them back i n .
Q. Do you remember when t h i s was e f f e c t i v e ?
A. Y e s , I do. I t came i n t o e f f e c t bet ween t h e
t i m e I was i n t h e h o s p i t a l and t h e t i m e I went on R&R.
Q It would have been from t h e t i m e you went t o
t h e h o s p i t a l , o r somewhere i n t h a t pe r i od.
(CARTE R) ' 6 APP T-173
A. Somewhere i n t h a t per i od. I t became e f f e c t i v e
dur i ng that per i od.
Q. Were you wi t h t h e 11t h Bri gade i n Hawaii?
A. Y e s , I wa s .
Q. You w e r e wi t h B Company a t t h a t t i me?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. You went t hrough Vietnam wi t h B company?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q- W a s t h e company gi ven any s p e c i f i c t r a i n i n g i n
Ha wa i i i n r ef er ence t o handl i ng pr i s one r s of w a r , di s pos i -
t i o n of noncombat ant s, such as t h a t ?
A. I f t he r e were, I wasn' t pr es ent f o r them. I was
onl y pr e s e nt f o r about 2 months i n Hawaii bef or e I s hi p-
ped over t o Vietnam. During t h a t t i m e I went on two maj or
t r a i n i n g ope r a t i ons , and due t o my r e s p o n s i b i l i t i e s a s t he
j uni or l i e u t e n a n t i n t h e company, I had a bunch of o t h e r
s t u f f t o do i n which I had t o l eave my pl at oon and go some
pl ace else. Qui t e of t e n I was n' t wi t h my pl at oon i n cer-
t a i n a r e a s of t r a i n i n g . I d o n ' t remember, however, r u l e s
of war and how t o handl e pr i s one r s of war and t h i s s o r t
of t hi ng. They t aught us t h a t i n OCS. W e had t a gs t o t a g
our pr i s one r s wi t h once we got over t he r e .
Q. I was t hi nki ng more of t h e t r a i n i n g t h a t might
have been gi ven t h e company.
A. I don' t remember any t r a i n i n g of t h a t t ype.
Q Do you r e c a l l , a t any t i m e , a j udge. advocat e
o f f i c e r coming down and gi vi ng you a l e c t u r e on r u l e s of
l and war f ar e, Geneva Convent i on, l e g a l i t y of or de r s , p r i s -
oner s , e t c e t e r a ?
7
APP T-173
A. I don ' t remember s pe c i f i c a l l y , but t h a t I s not
r e a l l y very good, because t hi ngs were i n such a me s s . I
was up sometimes 20 hours a day, running around doing t hi ngs ,
i ns pect i ng weapons, packing t hi ngs , i ns pect i ng t hi ngs , t each-
i ng c l a s s e s , pr epar i ng f o r cl as s es .
Q a Did you ever gi ve a c l a s s on r ul e s of l and war-
f a r e ?
I
A. I donft remember gi vi ng a c l a s s on r u l e s of
l and warfare.
Q How about Geneva Convention?
A. I never gave a c l a s s on t he Geneva Convention.
I bel i eve we di d, yes , I bel i eve we di d. It may have
been--it was 2 weeks bef or e we got over t he r e . They
got t he whole ba t t a l i on t oget her i n an audi t ori um. That
may have been it. I remember t he r e was a l s o some s t u f f
about vener eal di s eas e and use of drugs. I t hi nk it was
a 2-hour bl ock.
I
Q.
Given by somebody out s i de t he ba t t a l i on?
A. Yes, gi ven by somebody out s i de t he ba t t a l i on.
Q - -What about a f t e r you ar r i ved i n Vietnam? Was
any t r a i ni ng s p e c i f i c a l l y di r e c t e d towards t hes e s ubj ect s ?
I
A. Yes, t he r e was. There was some a t Carantan f i r e
base. Every u n i t t h a t went out as a company went through
this c e r t a i n set of t r a i ni ng. One of t he t hi ngs t h a t was
covered completely t he r e was how t o handl e pr i s oner s .
Did you consi der t h i s pr e t t y good t r ai ni ng?
A. I f not hi ng e l s e , i t gave t he men an i de a what
t o expect and what t o do i n a case l i k e t h i s .
& What was t he pol i cy on t aggi ng PW's? Did t he
pl at oon l eader s do it or squad l eader s ?
8
APP T-173
FOR OFFICIAL USE. ONLY
,
A. The b a t t a l i o n PW' s , as f a r as I am concerned,
when we--in my pl at oon a t l e a s t , when we t ook a pr i s one r
o r a s us pect ed VC o r somet hi ng l i k e t h i s , we t agged him.
I f it was i n a har d a r e a , f o r i ns t a nc e Pi n k v i l l e , w e
would put a bag over h i s head. Although Capt ai n MICHLES
was adamant about t h i s , t h a t we do t h i s wi t h a l l pr i s one r s ,
I d i d n ' t l i k e t o . The r eason was t h a t t h e r e a r e i n-
nocent peopl e out t h e r e i n t h e count r y. So ge ne r a l l y,
i f it wa s i n a har d a r e a , Pi nkvi l l e f o r i ns t a nc e , w e
bound them and put a sandbag over t h e i r head and put
them i n a chopper. Af t e r t h a t I be l i e ve t h e r e w a s some
i nt e r r oga t i on i n t a s k f or c e , but I d o n ' t know. I had
no connect i on wi t h t h a t . A l l I have i s hear say. They
went t o t h e MP's t o t h e ARVN I s .
Q. ' Did you have a r e gul a r set of t a gs t h a t you
c a r r i e d wi t h you t o t a g t he' pr i s one r s ?
A. Y e s , we di d. W e had t h e r e gul a r t a gs . There
w e r e two t a g s we had t o f i l l out f o r each pr i s one r of w a r .
Q You used t h e t er m har d a r e a . W a s t h e normal
A0 of Task Force Barker consi der ed a har d ar ea?
A. No, not t he whole . t hi ng. It was c e r t a i n a r e a s
t h a t were consi der ed a har d a r e a . Every t i m e we went near
it w e t ook c a s u l t i e s . The peni ns ul a and--although t h e
~ i n k v i l l ew a s not di , r e c t l y wi t hi n t h e t a s k f or ce A0 it
ver y pr obabl y wa s an ext ens i on. J u s t about anyt hi ng s out h
of t h e r i v e r t h e r e i s a har d a r e a .
COL WILSON: L e t m have t h e VACV c a r d e x h i b i t s .
(The r ecor der d i d as di r e c t e d. )
The f i r s t Exhi bi t i s M- 2. I t ' s a f a c s i mi l e
of a MACV wa l l e t s i z e d car d e n t i t l e d i "Nine Rul es. " Have
you e ve r s een t h i s car d? You' l l f i n d t h e back of it on
t h e next page.
A. Y e s .
Q. Where di d you s e e t h i s car d?
(CARTER) 9
APP T-173
A. I bel i eve t h a t t he f i r s t time I saw it was
s hor t l y a f t e r we ar r i ved i n count ry. I'm not s ur e. I
may have seen it i n Hawaii.
a- Did you have one of t hes e cards?,
A. I had one of t hose cards.
Q- Was t he car d i s s ued t o your t r oops?
A. The car ds %werei s s ued t o our t r oops .
Q How?
A. Through t he company l e v e l , I bel i eve.
Q Pardon?
A. No . Somebody brought them down t o t he pl at oon
s er geant s . The pl at oon ser ge ant s passed them out .
Q The next e xhi bi t is M- 3 -and i s e n t i t l e d , "The
Enemy i n Your Hands, " two pages, t he f acs i mi l e of t he card.
Have you seen t h i s e xhi bi t ? I t i s anot her wa l l e t s i z e d
car d.
A. I don' t remember s pe c i f i c a l l y s eei ng t h a t card.
Q- You don' t remember t h a t card. This i s t he one
t h a t had some t r a ns l a t i ons on i t .
A. That ' s what I was l ooki ng a t .
Q But you don' t remember seei ng t h a t ?
A. It seems t o me, i f I had t hose t r a ns l a t i ons
I would have remembered them, because I coul d have used
them a t one time o r anot her.
Q The next card i s f o r o f f i c i a l use onl y. It i s
Exhi bi t M- 4 , and it i s e n t i t l e d , "Guidance f o r Commanders i n
Vietnam. " It is by General WESTMORELAND. Have you ever
seen t h i s card?
(CARTER) ' 1 0
APP T-173
A. I d o n ' t remember s e e i ng it.
LTC NOLL: I have a ques t i on on t he t r a i n i n g . I under-
s t a nd t h a t the u n i t went t hrough an o r i e n t a t i o n per i od when
i t f i r s t a r r i v e d i n Vietnam. What about an o f f i c e r l i k e
Li eut enant LEWIS, d i d he r ecei ve an o r i e n t a t i o n a t b a t t a l -
i on o r br i gade l e v e l bef or e he w a s assi gned down?
A. I would have no way of knowing. I never asked
him. He d i d not come over wi t h us. I have no way of know-
i ng. I c a n ' t remember havi ng asked him.
Q What about t h e e n l i s t e d r epl acement s? Were t hey
r equi r ed t o go i n t o a school a t a f i r e s uppor t bas e?
A. Y e s . They would go t hrough some s chool , I bel i eve
a t Chu L a i , be f or e t hey came i n . I be l i e ve it was a t Chu
Lai . I may be wrong on t h a t .
Q Do you have any i d e a how l ong t hey were i n
count r y be f or e t hey were as s i gned t o your company?
A. Usual l y about a week.
COL WILSON: Were you e v e r t o l d o r d i d you e ve r r ead a docu-
ment which may have been e n t i t l e d , "Rul es of Engagement"?
A. Rul es of Engagement. I t s ur e sounds f a mi l i a r .
Q* I d o n ' t know whet her t h i s document would have
f i l t e r e d down t o t he company l e v e l o r not .
A. I remember somet hi ng about it. One of t h e
l i e ut e na nt s i n t h e company was t a l k i n g about i t . I be l i e ve
it was Li eut enant COCHRAN who was t a l k i n g about i t a t LZ
Car ant an.
Q. You mean t h i s was when you f i r s t g o t over t her e?
A. When we f i r s t g o t over t he r e . He was t a l k i n g
about r u l e s of engagement, and he w a s i nvol ved wi t h a
c l a s s o r somet hi ng i n some way.
Q Did you e ve r see a document on t h i s ?
(CARTER) 11
APP T-173
Q
Did you have any i n d i r e c t f i r e weapons i n your
pl at oon?
A. Well, I t r i e d , but t hey took them away from us.
I t r i e d t o g e t a 60 mort ar one time. That was t aken away
from us.
Q .
W i l l you des cr i be t o me your underst andi ng as
t o what you were t o do i n a combat s i t u a t i o n as a pl at oon
l eader when you approached a vi l l a ge ?
A. When you approached a vi l l a ge . That ' s a very
nebulous quest i on. I t depends e n t i r e l y on t he ci rcumst ances
of t he vi l l a ge .
&. Le t ' s put t he v i l l a g e i n t he Pi nkvi l l e a r e a , and
l e t ' s say you conducted a combat a s s a u l t i n t he proximity--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) Okay. The combat a s s a u l t , t he
first t hi ng t h a t had t o be done w a s t o cons ol i dat e t he
pl at oon and g e t them i n one a r e a , and us ual l y i n t h e di r ec-
t i o n you were t o go. You would move o u t always on l i n e ,
e s s e nt i a l l y always on l i n e , and sweep t he s e c t or . I f you
w e r e s hot a t , you shoot back. I f somebody was hur t , g e t a
medic over t o h i m and keep on moving u n t i l your s e c t o r
was swept.
Q. I n a s i t u a t i o n where you conducted a combat a s s a ul t
i n t o an open a r e a , and t he pl at oons pos s i bl y moved out i n
d i f f e r e n t di r e c t i ons , and a pl at oon was going t o sweep t he
v i l l a g e , what would normally be done with noncombatants?
And t h i s agai n i s i n a hard ar ea?
A. The noncombatants were t o be gat her ed up, us ual l y
by a pl at oon s er geant and a coupl e of men, and t hey would
send them over. They would gat her them up and keep them
consol i dat ed.
Q
And t hen what would you event ual l y do with them?
A. Keep them t he r e u n t i l t he v i l l a g e o r t he ar ea
was thoroughly searched, and disband them when we l e f t
t h e ar ea.
APP T-173
Q L e t them go?
A. Let them go.
Q . A t any t i m e when you oper at ed, and I assume
you di d oper at e i n t he Pi nkvi l l e a r e a o r sout h of t h e
r i v e r , were t h e r e i ns t r uc t i ons gi ven t o move t h e noncom-
b a t a n t s , o r t h e i nha bi t a nt s of t h e a r e a s , back out of
t h e a r e a , o r were t hey j u s t rounded up and al l owed t o
go back i n t o t h e i r vi l l a ge ?
A. No, t hey wer en' t . I n none of our a s s a u l t s di d
w e e ve r g e t any d i r e c t f i r e t h a t I w a s i n , and now t he r e w e r e
some t h a t I hear d about whi l e I was i n t h e h o s p i t a l there
and on R&R t h a t t hey di d g e t some d i r e c t f i r e . Somewhere
acr os s a br i dge , somewhere where Major TRINKLE was wounded,
and i n i ns t a nc e s l i k e t h i s , t hey had d i r e c t f i r e . Sweeping
t hr ough a v i l l a g e l i k e t h i s , however, it w a s a good
t hi ng t o keep them wi t h us , because t hey were Cha r l i e ' s
peopl e and Cha r l i e was n' t goi ng t o shoot h i s own peopl e. So
w e ke pt them wi t h us. I n t h e gener al v i c i n i t y . W e d i d n ' t
have them i n l i n e wi t h t h e t r oops .
COL WILSON: W e ' l l t ake a s hor t recess.
(The hear i ng r eces s ed a t 0950 hour s , 1 7 Januar y
1970. )
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 0953 hour s , 17
Januar y 1970. )
COL WILSOIil: The hear i ng w i l l come t o or de r .
RCDR : A l l per sons pr e s e nt when t h e hear i ng r eces s ed
a r e agai n pr es ent . M r . WALSB i s a l s o pr es ent .
COL WILSON: I remind you t h a t you a r e s t i l l under oat h.
A. Y e s , si r.
COL WILSON: I n t h i s s i t u a t i o n , say you a r e conf r ont ed by
a number of Vietnamese r unni ng from your pl at oon. What
a c t i ons a r e t o be t aken?
(CARTER) 13
APP T-173
A. I t depends i f t hey a r e male o r female, and i f
you can di s cer n t h a t t hey a r e male and t hey a r e obvi ousl y
mi l i t a r y age, i f t hey can be running and a r e bi g enough,
shoot . I f t hey ar e not mi l i t a r y age o r women, you do not
shoot .
Q Is t he r e any sequence of act i on t aken be f or e you
shoot ?
A. Y e s , a warning and a s hot over t he head.
Q. What do you mean warning?
A. You h o l l e r "dung lai ," o r "dung l a y , " o r something
l i k e t h a t . I don' t remember t he expressi on.
Q The Vietnamese words you s a i d mean what?
A. St op, as f a r as I know. This may not be accur at e.
I ' ve f or got t en what t he a c t ua l words were t h a t w e r e used,
but a t t he t i m e I t hought i t meant s t op.
Q You have descr i bed t o me what seems t o be t he
sequence of act i on you' d have t aken. Would you g o through
them one more time i n sequence?
A. We would come through a vi l l a ge and we would see
a couple of f i gur es break out acr oss t he r i c e paddi es,
300 yards ahead of us . You hol l er ed a t them and t o l d them
t o s t op. I f t hey were mi l i t ary-aged mal es, i f you can di s-
cern t hey a r e males, you shoot a t them.
Q You s a i d something about a warning.
A. I mentioned t he warning.
Q = Is t h a t t o s t op?
A. Yes, t o st op.
8. And t hen i f t hey cont i nued t o run you f i r e d a t
them?
(CARTER) 1 4
APP T- 173
A. Yes, we f i r e d a t t h e m i f we coul d di s cer n t h a t they
were males. I n ot her words, we don' t shoot a t t he women.
Q.
A t what di s t ance i n bl ack pajamas can you t e l l a
ma1.e from a female?
You can t e l l from a good di s t ance, because t hey r un
ff e r e nt l
.y.
Probably up t o 250 o r 300 met ers you should be
l e t o d i . scern t he di f f er ence between male and female wi t h
some accuracy and some r e l i a b i l i t y .
Q. Did you ever hear t h a t warning s hot s shoul d be
f i r e d?
A. Y e s , I mentioned t h a t . You hol l e r e d "st op" and
t hen t h e warning shot .
Q. I d i d n ' t know when you s a i d warning you meant a
$ warning shot .
A. When I r e f e r t o warning, i t ' s "Stop!" and "bang"
over t he head.
Q - A l l r i ght . Now, do you f e e l t h a t t he people of B
Company knew t h i s ?
A. Yes. I know t hey knew it.
Q. HOW'.of t en were they t ol d?
A.
Captain MICHLES passed i t down a ha l f a dozen t i mes.
Q. Did he ever ge t up i n f r o n t of t he company as a
group and t e l l them what t o do i n t hes e s i t ua t i ons ?
A. Yes.
Q * Have you ever seen, whi l e wi t h oper at i ons i n Bravo
Company, any i ndi scr i mi nat e f i r i n g ?
A. Only when we were bei ng s hot a t .
Q. You only took someone under f i r e when you were
t aken under f i r e , is t h a t c or r e c t ?
A. I ndi s cr i mi nat e f i r e . I assume your r ef er r i ng- - i n-
di s c r i mi na t e f i r i n g , I t h i n k , would be f i r i n g i n a f i r e f i g h t .
I woul dn' t s ay i ndi s c r i mi na t e f i r i n g would be s hoot i ng c i v i l -
i a ns when t h e r e i s a male t o be s hot a t , o r s hoot i ng c i v i l i a n s
when t he r e was no mal e t o be s hot a t . I ndi s cr i mi nat e is spr ayi ng
t h e ar ea.
Q- That ' s r i g h t . Sometimes r e f e r r e d t o a s r econnai s-
ance by f i r e .
A. We used a r econnai ssance by f i r e when we had some
c ont a c t bef or e. Although itwas a d i f f e r e n t company, i n a
d i f f e r e n t u n i t t he day I was h i t , we used r econnai ssance by
f i r e .
Q. The day you were h i t . Now, t h a t ' s when you l o s t
your arm?
A. Yes, si r.
Q. That day you w e r e usi ng r econni assance by f i r e ?
A. ' That day we were usi ng r econni assance by f i r e . They
had been t hrowi ng rounds a t us and t r i e d an a s s a u l t i n broad
da yl i ght on us a t t he h i l l we were on. W e knew t h a t t hey w e r e
i n t h e r e , and w e knew t h a t t hey were "gooks. " W e knew t hey
w e r e i n t h e r e , and we were s hoot i ng by r econni assance by f i r e .
Occas i onal l y, we used r econni assance by f i r e i n abandoned areas.
A l o t of a r e a s i n between Highway 1and t h e c oa s t a r e a ,
Pi nkvi l l e , where t h e r e i s ver y l i t t l e i nha bi t a t i on or any-
t hi ng. And we go i n t o an a r e a l i k e t h i s q u i t e o f t e n . W e used
r econni assance by f i r e . It was a r out i ne t hi ng, b u t I c l e a r e d
itwi t h t he CO f i r s t . We d i d t h i s i n an a r e a where t h e r e
w a s no c i v i l i a n popul at i on.
Q- How would you know which of t he s e w e r e i nha bi t e d
and which of t he s e a r e a s w e r e not i nhabi t ed?
A. W e l l , I was i n t h a t a r e a pr obabl y f o r a t o t a l of
f i v e and one ha l f months, and I knew ever y t r a i l .
Q- W a i t a minute. T 'm t a l ki ng about Pi nkvi l l e .
A. Pi n k v i l l e , okay. Down t h e r e , I wa s n' t down t h e r e
t o o many t i m e s . I wouldn' t know. We d i d r econ by f i r e ,
t hough, a s we were moving t hrough t h e v i l l a g e .
Q
I f you were conduct i ng a combat a s s a u l t i n the Pink-
v i l l e a r e a , and you moved acr os s this b i t of l and over t h e r e
( i ndi c a t i ng) t h a t r uns up i n t o Pi nkvi l l e , and you approached
t h e v i l l a g e , would you use r econnai ssance by f i r e ?
A. I f i t was an uni nhabi t ed a r e a .
Q-
Was B Company e ve r t o l d a t any t i me, o r di d you
e ve r r ecei ve any i n s t r u c t i o n s t o b u m any v i l l a g e ?
A. Y e s .
Q Where w e r e t hey? When was t h i s ?
A. February.
Q -
Was this v i l l a g e t o be burned--was t h i s Pi nkvi l l e
i t s e l f , My L a i ( I ) ?
A. My Lai (1) and My Lai ( 2 ) a r e on t h i s b i t of l and.
Thi s a r e a i n t h e f i r s t h a l f of g r i d squar e- - i n t he f i r s t h a l f
of t he l e f t h a l f of g r i d squar e 7380 ( Exhi bi t MAP-4) . Al so
s l i g h t l y below it.
Q.
The wi t nes s r e f e r r e d t o a complex of houses which
was nor t hwest of My Lai (1) o r Pi nkvi l l e . Now, what about
Pi n k v i l l e i t s e l f ? Were you e ve r t o l d t o burn t h a t ?
A. No, we wer en' t . J u s t a mi nut e. From my r ecol l ec-
t i o n s , the ot he r pl at oon on t h i s oper at i on he r e had t he j ob
of sweeping t h i s a r e a he r e , and we w e r e sweeping t h i s a r e a
over i n he r e ( i ndi c a t i ng on MAP-4).
Q.
I ' m goi ng t o ask you a t t h e end of t he ques t i oni ng
pe r i od t o si t down wi t h Col onel NOLL and a map and s ket ch
t h i s ope r a t i on f o r me. Ri ght now I ' m j u s t i n t e r e s t e d i n t he
bur ni ng p a r t . You were t o l d i n Febr uar y, t hen, t o bur n t h i s
a r e a of t he s e v i l l a g e s up t h e r e , which appar ent l y are p a r t
of t h e Pi nkvi l l e o r My Lai (1). Were you t o l d t o burn any
ot he r v i l l a g e ?
$
A. Y e s , si r. We were t o l d t o burn t he s e c t i o n up
her e. Ri ght a t t h e t i p . My pl at oon w a s t o sweep up and bur n
it. W e s t a r t e d and g o t about hal fway t hrough and got t h e o r d e r
t o s t o p burni ng.
APP T-173
Q. Thi s is an ar ea st i l l on MAP-4, nor t h of My L a i (1).
How were t hese i ns t r uc t i ons gi ven?
A. Though t he CO.
Q. And what di d he say?
, A. "Burn it.I'
Q. W e l l , di d he s ay, "Tot al l y demolish i t " ?
A. It ' s been a long time. I c a n ' t remember t he exact
words, but I can remember--I do remember t he words, not t he
words, but t h e meaning of t he oper at i on. From what I under
st ood from him, I was supposed t o sweep through he r e , gat her
up t he c i v i l i a n s , and t or ch ever yt hi ng o f f .
Q. Now, t hes e vi l l a ge s were i nhabi t ed t hen?
A. Y e s , sir. They were i nhabi t ed.
Q Were you gi ven any i ns t r uc t i ons r egar di ng food st ocks?
A. I don' t remember any s p e c i f i a i ns t r uc t i on regardi ng
food s t ocks . It was SOP i n an ar ea l i k e t h i s . We were supposed
t o spread t he r i c e around and des t r oy t he food s t ocks . I don' t
remember s pe c i f i c a l l y any animals i n t he ar ea. I do up i n
t he peni nsul a, i n which case t hey were s hot .
Q - I n an ar ea l i k e t h i s , now how do we s e pa r a t e what
we' r e t a l ki ng about . We ' r e r e f e r r i ng t o t he Pi nkvi l l e ar ea i n
one pl ace, and t hen we' r e t a l ki ng about t h e peni nsul a a r e a i n
anot her pl ace. Was t he peni nsul a a r e a and t h e Pi nkvi l l e ar ea
consi dered t he same?
A. W e l l , t he peni nsul a ar ea wasn' t i nhabi t ed as much
as Pi nkvi l l e was, but t hen we took more c a s ua l t i e s i n t he
peni nsul a ar ea t han we di d down i n Pi nkvi l l e. Although both
of t h e m were consi dered h o t t e r t han h e l l .
Q But it was normal i n t he peni nsul a ar ea. I f I ' m
i nc or r e c t c or r e c t me . It was no,rlnal Fn t he peni nsul a a r e a and
i n t he Pi nkvi l l e ar ea, and I ' m r e f e r r i ng now t o My Lai (1)
which i s where you descr i bed t h i s oper at i on, t o dest r oy l i ve-
s t ock and vi l l a ge s ?
(CARTER) 1 8
APP T-173
A. Not SOP a l l t he time. I f t he deci s i on was made
and we were ordered t o bum t he vi l l a ge , we went ahead and de-
st r oyed t he l i ves t ock.
Q. I n t he number of oper at i ons t h a t you conducted i n
t h i s ar ea, you s a i d it wasn' t SOP a l l t he t i me, was t h i s done
more of t en t han not ?'
A. W e l l , your t al ki ng about such a small. number of
times t h a t I was r e a l l y down i n Pi nkvi l l e. Both times I was
down t he r e , one time we burned, and we di d not burn t he sec-
ond time. W e di d not t e a r up t he second time. Peni nsul a,
t he f i r s t t i m e we burned i t , and one ot he r t i me we burned
t h i s one pa r t i c ul a r vi l l a ge I ' m t hi nki ng about t h a t was
i n t he area.
Q - When you went i n t o t he v i l l a g e on t he peni nsul a,
when you went on t he oper at i on, were you t o l d t o go out and
burn t h a t vi l l a ge ?
A. Yes, sir. A s , a mat t er of f a c t , t h e f i r s t time I
burned t h i s pa r t i c ul a r vi l l a ge t h a t my pl at oon and anot her
pl at oon t h a t I had wi t h me were s ear chi ng, I c a l l e d t he CO
and asked him s pe c i f i c a l l y, " I t was searched, secured, we ' ve
qot t he c i v i l i a n s gat hered up, ever yt hi ng. Do you want us t o
burn i t ? " "Yes, t or ch i t o f f . " I ha t e t o throw anyt hi ng
l i k e t h a t on a dead man, but t h a t 's t he t r u t h .
Q I t ' s necessary t h a t we g e t the t r u t h on t h i s t hi ng.
You don' t know i f you a r e r e f l e c t i ng on your commander anyhow,
because he may have been t o l d t o do t h i s . He' s fol l owi ng i n-
s t r uc t i ons . What we a r e t r yi ng t o determine i s t he normal
procedures and normal oper at i ons , s pe c i f i c a l l y i n t he
Pi nkvi l l e ar ea. Now, l e t me ask you about oper at i ons f ur t he r
west of t he Pi nkvi l l e i t s e l f , back down road 521, f o r example,
which I am s ur e you a r e f mi l i a r wi t h.
' , A. I 1m. not t h a t f a mi l i a r wi t h it.
Q. ' W e l l , you remember H i l l 85, don' t you?
A. I remember s eei ng it, yes.
Q Do you remember t h e ol d French f o r t her e?
A. No, I was never down t h a t f a r .
Q. L e t I s say back i n t h i s a r e a , away from t he c o a s t ,
would t h e same t ype pr ocedur es hol d? We' re s t i l l i n what the
peopl e seem t o r e f e r t o , a t l e a s t i n Task Force Bar ker , as t he
Pi nkvi l l e complex.
A. I woul dn' t r e f e r t h a t t o Pi nkvi l l e . Pi nkvi l l e i s
r i g h t ne xt t o . t h a t s t i n t of l and. That s h o r t l i t t l e peni ns ul a
that s t i c k s up.
Q. Tha t ' s t he v i l l a g e i t s e l f ?
A. Y e s , t h a t ' s what I r e f e r t o a s Pi nkvi l l e . I was
not on t h i s oper at i on e i t h e r . My pl at oon was on Upt i ght , but
I do remember some bur ni ng goi ng on down t he r e . I ' l l say this--
I remember s i t t i n g a t Upt i ght and wat chi ng bur ni ng down i n t h a t
a r e a , and I d i d n ' t know my pl at oon--t he r e s t of my company was
out . I d i d n ' t know i f it was my company o r anot her company
doi ng it, because i t was a combined ope r a t i on. I be l i e ve wi t h
C/ 1/ 20, I ' m not s ur e . I have it down, a not e l i k e t h a t , i n
l e t t e r s t a l k i n g about i t , because I remember t he ope r a t i on
because a s e r ge a nt i n our pl at oon g o t h i t i n t he but t ocks by
a b u l l e t . The b u l l e t l odged between h i s wa l l e t and t he s e a t
of hi ' s pant s and burned. Tha t ' s why it caused s o much pai n.
I remember t h e ope r a t i on, wr i t i n g my f ol ks about i t and t el -
l i n g them t hey were wi t h C/1/20.
&. This was . s out h of t he r i v e r ?
A. Y e s , si r. Thi s was f a i r l y ear l y- -
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) You s a i d you were s i t t i n g at Up-
t i g h t and you coul d s e e t h e bur ni ng?
A. Y e s , sir. You coul d s e e t h e whole ar ea. It was
a t n i g h t , o r it was a t dusk.
Q - Yes. But now a t Upt i ght , where d i d t h i s man g e t
wounded, o r was t h e man i n C Company t h a t you were t a l k i n g
about ?
A. No. My pl at oon was on Upt i ght , b u t t h e rest o i my
company was down s out h on t h i s oper at i on. My platoon--we had
been out f o r t h e l a s t 5 days i n row. It was dur i ng t he t i m e
I was t he onl y pl at oon l e a d e r , l i e u t e n a n t t ype , i n t h e company.
I had been out f o r about a week, and t hey deci ded t o send t h e
o t h e r two o u t , and t he company commander was w i t h them.
20 APP T-173
FOR OFFICIAL USEONLY
Q - And t h i s was dawn s out h of t h e r i v e r ?
A. Thi s was' s out h of t h e r i v e r . I d o n ' t know t h a t my
company was s out h of t h e r i v e r . I don' t know e xa c t l y where
t hey we r e . They were--somebody was i n the ge ne r a l v i c i n i t y ,
and there was some bur ni ng goi ng on.
Q Thi s was a t ni ght t h a t you s a w t h i s ?
A. A t dusk.
Q. D i d you have any phot ographs of t h i s ?
A. No, I don' t . There was n' t enough l i g h t t o t a ke
phot ographs.
a= What? I n t he s e a r e a s t h a t you r e f e r r e d t o e a r l i e r ,
where you w e r e i n s t r u c t e d t o burn t h e v i l l a g e s ? Were you i n-
s t r u c t e d t o do anyt hi ng about t h e wat er ? To cont ami nat e t he
wat er o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h a t ?
A. W e l l , we were i n s t r u c t e d t o k i l l t he ani mal s and
t hrow them down a we l l . Now, t h i s r e a l l y , i n f a c t ,.i s a wast e
of t i m e , because Char l i e o r t h e c i v i l i a n s would f i s h t he ani -
m a l s up, and dr y them t o e a t them, and i n a coupl e of days t h e
wat er would be cl ean agai n. But t h a t ' s what we w e r e i n s t r u c t e d
t o do one t i m e . The f i r s t t i me we went i n t o t h e peni ns ul a
t h a t ' s what we w e r e i n s t r u c t e d t o do.
Q. And you r ecei ved t h i s i n s t r u c t i o n from t he Corn-
pany commander?
A. Y e s .
Q-
And you conduct ad--pri or t o goi ng t o t h e h o s p i t a l
i n March, you d e s c r i b e d a combat a s s a u l t , o r you we r e l i f t e d
i n t o an. rea.
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Now, how many t i m e s can you r e c a l l , p r i o r t o March,
o r t h e mi ddl e of March, w e r e you l i f t e d i n t o t h e a r e a s out h
of t h e Di e m D i e m Ri ver ?
A. J u s t once.
CONFIDENTIAL
(CARTER)
A. No, I be l i e ve I heard--t hi ngs I hear d, I be l i e ve ,
t h a t was when MILUS was k i l l e d . Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s k i l l e d
t h e r e . There wa s anot her i ndi vi dua l i n t he same pr oxi mi t y of
MILUS t h a t was a l s o k i l l e d . I hear d t he s t o r i e s about them,
b u t I don' t remember any o t h e r p a r t i c u l a r rumors about what
had happened. Li eut enant COCHRAN and I were ver y c l os e .
Q- Did you know Li eut enant WILLINGHAM?
A. W e l l , not ver y w e l l . I d i d n ' t l i k e him. H e was
a g r e a t XO, b u t a l ousy pl at oon l eader .
Q - I n wh a t r e s pe c t wa s he l ousy?
A. Very by t he booki sh and ver y, ver y r i g i d . W e l l , I ' m
goi ng t o s t a r t t hrowi ng names. He was l i k e Col onel ADKINS
was, as opposed t o Col onel BARKER. Col onel ADKINS was--by
everyone above him--he wa s doi ng a wonder f ul job. H e always
ke pt h i s ass covered. Everybody below him s t a nk. He was t h e
l owest man on the t ot em pol e a s far a s I ' m concerned. I hat ed
h i m . I j u s t l i t e r a l l y ha t e d-him, because he caused unnecessary
deat hs . WI LLI NGHAM was n' t a l l t h a t bad. He w a s j u s t very
booki sh i n a s much as how exact l y- - t o gi ve an example he was
t r y i n g t o keep 100 per cent a l e r t on h i s ambushes. Keeping
100 per cent a l e r t s on ambushes i s s he e r s u i c i d e , and you
have cl aymores and dai s y chai n cl aymor es. You need one man
awake t o ope r a t e t hos e cl aymores and two men somewhere else
f o r s e c u r i t y and t h e rest can l i e t h e r e and s l e e p , and you
s wi t ch guar ds. Thi s is what i s neces s ar y, and i f you can
g e t da i s y chai n cl aymores, you can g e t f a n t a s t i c f i r epower
i ns t ant aneous l y. I t ' st h e b e s t ambush you can g e t . He
i n s i s t e d on t r y i n g t o keep a 100 pe r c e nt a l e r t . He t r i e d t o
keep, I f o r g e t what itwas, some r i di c ul ous amount of ammo.
I d i d n ' t have t h a t much c ont a c t wi t h him, but h i s men d i d n ' t
have--well, he coul d r ead a map you know. He knows what t o
do, b u t he wasn' ta very good pl at oon l e a de r .
Q. Do you f e e l t h a t he may not have had compl et e con-
t r o l of h i s u n i t ?
A. No, I mentioned t h a t he had compl et e c ont r ol of
hi s u n i t , and itwas pr obabl y p r e t t y good c o n t r o l of t he
u n i t . I ' v e g o t t o hand itt o him f o r t h a t . But l i k e I s ay,
he would have made a good XO, you know, someone l i k e him,
yes. But as a combat pl at oon l e a de r , I d o n ' t know how t o de-
s c r i b e him. I t was somet hi ng he mi ssed, somet hi ng t h a t he was
l acki ng.
Q But you never hear d anyt hi ng about t h i s opera-
t i o p on 16 March, e i t h e r i nvol vi ng Char l i e Company o r B Com-
p any? I
A. I di dn ' t hear t h i s .
Q . - You never hear d anyt hi ng about roundi ng up c i v i l -
i a ns and s hoot i ng them?
A. No, I never hear d anyt hi ng about roundi ng up c i v i l -
i a ns .
Q. How about r api ng and abusi ng Vietnamese women? Was
this a problem from t i me t o t i me i n t h e u n i t ?
A. One t i me it was. A coupl e of i ndi vi dua l s i n my
u n i t s t a r t e d t o mol est a g i r l . I had t o s t e p i n t o s t o p them,
but ot he r t ha n t h a t , I mean, pardon t he expr es s i on, t h e r e was n' t .
anyt hi ng r apabl e out t he r e .
Q W e l l , we I ve hear d cons i der abl e t est i mony t h a t
o t h e r peopl e mi ght have had d i f f e r e n t i deas on t h a t s c or e , and
I j u s t wondered i f t h i s was somet hi ng t h a t had t o be watched
f or ?
A. W e l l , t h i s was always somet hi ng you had t o watch
f o r when t h e r e was an a t t r a c t i v e g i r l around, and t h i s d i d
happen one t i m e up i n t he peni nsul a. A coupl e of t h e hen
s t a r t e d pl ayi ng around a l i t t l e b i t , ha r a s s i ng t h e g i r l .
They werenl t s exual l y a s s a ul t i ng her.
Q You never heard any rumors about r a pe s bei ng
committed?
A. G I ' s t hrew out some rumors. I hear d s o many
rumors, and I don' t gi ve a bit of cr edence on any of them.
Q. What rumors d i d you hear ?
A. Tha t ' s l i k e as ki ng how many c a r s d i d I see between
Ri ver si de and L. A. There i s no way t h a t I coul d pos s i bl y
t e l l you w i t h any accur acy a t a l l . You aways hear d rumors
about G I ' s r api ng g i r l s . That I s a f l a t s t at ement . Another
f l a t s t at ement , 99. 9 per cent of them we r e f a l s e .
LTC NOLL: I n March and e a r l y Apr i l , what was t h e a r e a of op-
e r a t i o n f ox B/ 4/ 3?
A. Between t he t i m e I was i n t he h o s p i t a l and t he
t i m e I went on R&R, B/4/3 w a s i n t h i s ge ne r a l a r e a he r e ,
which i ncl udes g r i d s quar es 7186, 7185, 7184, 7284, 7283, and
7383.
Q To your knowledge t h e r e was never an oper at i on
around 1 Apr i l , some 30 K's t o t he west ?
A. Thi r t y ki l omet er s i n Apr i l .
Q. The 1st of Apr i l .
A. Not around Apr i l . Not t h a t I remember.
Q. When an oper at i on wa s t er mi nat ed, when t h e r e was
a number o f VC body count , w a s t h e r e any di s c us s i on concerni ng
t h e success of t h e oper at i ons ?
A. Y e s , q u i t e a b i t . One ope r a t i on, r i g h t a f t e r we
got t o Dot t i e , it shoul d be--we got t o Dot t i e t h e day a f t e r
S p e c i a l i s t GLEGHORN was k i l l e d , t he day o r t h e day a f t e r t h a t .
I don' t remember s p e c i f i c a l l y . There wa s an ope r a t i on, Spec-
i a l i s t GLEGHORN was t he f i r s t K I A we had i n our company, and
s o he l e f t our pl at oon s i t t i n g around t a l ki ng. They had an
1
oper at i on s i m i l a r t o t h i s gener al a r e a , r e f e r r i n g t o j u s t
nor t hwest of t h e b i g squar e o l d French f o r t , down he r e ( i n-
d i c a t i n g ) . They had an oper at i on down t h e r e i n which
t h e r e was s t i f f f i r e f i g h t i n g , and t hey had, a t n i g h t , t hey
had t o be withdrawn w i t h t r a c ks and pul l ed back out . But
there was q u i t e a b i t of di s c us s i on about t he k i l l s and what
happened. Everybody was ver y exhuber ant ' about t h e whole
oper at i on.
COL WILSON: The wi t nes s i s s t i l l r e f e r r i n g t o MAP-4.
LTC NOLL: Thi s i s Exhi bi t M- 1 4 , Task Force Bar ker log f o r 16
March. B/4/3 a t 0955 r epor t ed 1 2 VC k i l l e d . Bravo Company
a t 1025 r e por t e d 18 VC k i l l e d , and Bravo Company a t 1420 re-
por t e d 8 VC k i l l e d . A t o t a l o f 38. Af t e r you r et ur ned t o t he
company di d you he a r any di s c us s i on concer ni ng t h i s ?
(CARTER) 2 8
APP T-173
A. I don' t s p e c i f i c a l l y remember any di s cus s i on. I
probabl y hear d some, but I don' t s p e c i f i c a l l y remember any
di scussi on. I ' m s or r y, t h a t ' s how it is.
COL WILSON: W e l l , would t h i s number of k i l l s have s t i mul at ed
any di s cus s i on?
A. Y e s . It would have most d e f i n i t e l y . Yes, sir.
Q- We're t a l ki ng about a t o t a l of 38 VC KI A i n one day.
A. Y e s , si r. That would have s t i mul at ed, but l i k e I
expl ai ned t o t h e at t or ney- who was i n he r e , I mean, I came back
and I hear d t h a t Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d . MILUS was
k i l l e d and one anot her man was k i l l e d . I was very fond of
Li eut enant COCHRAN. H e and I w e r e good buddi es. MILUS was
k i l l e d .
a* who?
A. MILUS, he was a bl ack. He was i n t he 1st Pl at oon,
and he was l i k e t he s p i r i t l e a de r of a l l t h e bl acks i n the
company. H e was a mean son of a bi t c h. Bi g, ugl y, and mean.
Q. T h i s number of 38, one day' s VC k i l l s f o r B Company,
no weapons capt ur ed, is t h i s normal?
A. It depends on hcrw t hey are k i l l e d . Char l i e needs
h i s weapons ver y badl y. I f you q e t i n a f i r e f i g h t , and you
k i l l a bunch of "gooks" i n a l i n e , and you f i n a l l y move i n t o
the l i n e , and t h e ones t h a t are l e f t don' t have t i m e t o dr ag
out t he bodi es , t hey w i l l grab t hose weapons, because t hey
need them bad. Char l i e w i l l t a ke t h e weapons bef or e t hey
t a ke bodi es , and they us ual l y t a ke bodi es when t hey can.
Q What w e r e t he procedures f o r body count i n B Com-
p any?
A. You mean go i n t o an ar ea. Usual l y, we were some-
what s p l i t up and you know, "How many have you got over t he r e . "
"I ' ve got three over here. " "Seven over her e. "
Q- Was t h i s t r ans mi t t ed by r a di o o r voi ce?
A. Radio.
Q. I n ot he r words, you us ual l y got your r e por t from
your squad l eadex?
(CARTER) 29
FOR OFFICIAL USE^ ONLY
APP T-173
A. That may not have been t r ans mi t t ed by r adi o. That
may have been. t r ans mi t t ed by voice very e a s i l y , although
maybe by l i t t l e squad r adi os . W e had t hose. From me t o t he
company was always r adi o, o r e s s e nt i a l l y r adi o.
Q You t r ans mi t t ed yours by r adi o. You got yours
from whom?
A. Squad l e a de r s , and from what I saw mysel f.
Q. Would you normal l y, as pl at oon l e a de r , s e e nos t of
t he k i l l s ?
A. Normally, as pl at oon Leader, I would s e e some of t he
k i l l s . I c a n ' t cover my whole pl at oon' s ground.
Q. Was t her e any s i t u a t i o n t h a t you r e c a l l where you
r epor t ed noncombatants, e i t h e r wounded o r k i l l e d , as a separ-
a t e r epor t , as i de from a body count?
A. Y e s , si r. I don' t know whether it was one of my
machinegunners o r one of 2d Pl at oon' s machinegunners, t hey
r epor t ed an ol d man got s hot i n t he l e g , and t hey c a r r i e d him
i n t o where we were and medevac' d him. I remember a CA j us t
sout h of Upt i ght , j u s t a f t e r Uptight had been abandoned. There
was a l ady t h a t was k i l l e d . No, she was wounded. Wounded bad
though. She was medevac'd. Yes, she was medevac' d. I know
t he r e w e r e more i ns t ances . I j u s t c a n ' t t hi nk of them.
Q. My quest i on i s r e a l l y , di d you r e por t t hes e o r di d
you evacuat e them?
A. Well, we had t o r e por t them t o evacuat e them.
Q You r epor t ed them. I n ot he r words, you c a l l e d t he
company commander.
Q. Yes, t h a t was st andar d oper at i ng procedure on evac-
uat i on. I would c a l l i n t o ge t us a medevac , but we d i d n ' t
have r adi os t o reach Chu Lai .
Q. Your procedure t hen, a s you descr i bed t o me, was
t o evacuat e t he Vietnamese, medevac--
30
APP T-173
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Wounded, yes . We woul dn' t evacu-
a t e them i f t hey were dead, and we d i d n ' t bus t our a s s t o
evacuat e them. W e woul dn' t have--I d o n ' t remember any spe-
c i f i c t i me where we were of f e r e d t he opt i on of evacuat i ng under
f i r e , but we wouldn ' t do t h i s . I n o t h e r words, I bel i eve tllcy
were r out i ne e va c s ,
Q. When you mentioned Li eut enant LEWIS, do you know
where Li eut enant LEWIS l i v e s ?
A. He' s dead, si r.
Q. Was he k i l l e d a f t e r t h i s ?
A. Y e s . He was k i l l e d a f t e r t h i s .
Q. Li eut enant COCHRAN was k i l l e d .
A. LIEUTEnant ' s SPRAGGINS and ROSS were wounded--they
were wounded bef or e t h i s .
Q Y e s , I remember SPRAGGINS wa s . I d o n ' t remember--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) ROSS w a s wounded be f or e SPRAGGINS.
No, Li eut enant SPRAGGINS was wounded r i g h t a f t e r t he ope r a t i on
of February. I n f a c t , he was wounded on t h e way back i n , i f I
can remember c or r e c t l y. Sni per f i r e . The f o o l , he always ad-
v e r t i s e d h i s pr esence as a pl at oon l e a de r .
Q - D o you recal l where anyone i s pr e s e nt l y l i v i n g ?
Do you know any of t he peopl e?
A. Li eut enant MUNDY.
Q. What' s h i s addr ess?
A. I d o n ' t have t he s p e c i f i c number, but he l i v e s
i n San Diego, Ca l i f or ni a , and t h i s w i l l be one of t h e t hi ngs
I send.
Q Wel l , we' ve got h i s name I be l i e ve on t he
r o s t e r . Was he i n t he company a t t he t i me?
A. H e wa s not i n t h e company a t t h a t t i m e . He was
XO of t he company, b u t he was not i n the f i e l d a t t h a t t i m e .
(CARTER) 3 1 APP T-173
Q Oh, he wasn' t ?
A. NO , sir.
9 Anybody e l s e ?
A. That I remember t her e. I got t hes e addresses I
have her e from "Pop, " o r Sergeant DAHNER.
Q Did you s e e Sergeant DAHNER?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. While he was s t i l l her e i n town?
A. No, not whi l e he was s t i l l her e. I saw him over
Christmas vacat i on. My wi fe and I went f o r a r i d e down t he
coas t and st opped i n t o s e e him a t For t Ord.
Q -
Do you have any knowledge of an i nve s t i ga t i on o r
an i nqui r y bei ng made on t h e oper at i on t h a t took pl ace i n
March by Task Force Barker?
A. NO, 'sir.
Q.
Did you ever s ee a f i e l d grade o f f i c e r from ot her
t han Task Force Barker quest i oni ng i ndi vi dual s of B Company
a t any time?
A. NO', si r.
Q
Did you ever hear of anybody i n B Company who was
quest i oned under oat h i n an i nve s t i ga t i ve procedure?
A. O t h e r t han cour t - mar t i al s i n t he Li eut enant ROSS
i nci dent ?
Q. What was t h e Li eut enant ROSS i nci dent ?
A. Someone t hr eat ened t o k i l l , o r t hr eat ened Lieu-
t enant ROSS wi t h h i s l i f e , bef or e we were at t ached t o Task
Force Barker. W e were on LZ Sue, and t he r e were court-mar-
t i al - t ype i nves t i gat i ons . bei ng s t a r t e d f o r t h a t .
32 APP T-173
Q. That I s t he onl y cas e t h a t you know of where peopl e
were ques t i oned i n an i nve s t i ga t i on o r i nqui r y?
A. As f a r as I know, t h a t ' s t h e onl y s p e c i f i c one I
know.
Q a Did you know a man named EBINGER?
A. Yes.
Q. What was your opi ni on of EBINGER?
A. Bi gges t God damn dud t he human r ace has e ve r pro-
duced.
Q- Who produced?
A. The human r a c e e ve r produced.
Q. EBINGERwr ot e a l e t t e r t o t h e Pr e s i de nt . Are you
aware of t h a t ?
A. I hear d somet hi nq from "Pop" t h a t he wr ot e a l et t er .
A l et t er of some s o r t .
Q. I n t h a t l et t er he a l l e ge d t h a t t h e r e w e r e r apes
goi ng on. Do you have reason--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) I have ver y good r eason t o doubt
t h e ve r a c i t y of t h i s s t at ement , because he was never out i n
t h e f i e l d l ong enough t o know.
Q . EBINGER r ef er ence i s Exhi bi t M-45. I have no i n-
t e n t i o n of us i ng t h i s exhibito r l e t t i n g you s e e i t . I j u s t
wanted t o ques t i on you on t h e a l l e g a t i o n of h i s l e t t e r . Had
you everhear d t h a t c i v i l i a n s had been k i l l e d unneces s ar i l y
by B/ 4/ 3 o r C/1/20 dur i ng t h i s t i me per i od?
A. I hear d ge ne r a l rumors concer ni ng t h e 1stPl at oon.
Q. The 1stPl at oon of B Company?
A. Y e s , si r.
What t ype of rumors do you mean?
(CARTER) 3 3 APP T-173
FOROFFI CI AL USEONLY
A. That t hey k i l l e d c i v i l i a n s unne c e s s a r i l y. B o t h i n
connect i on wi t h t h i s o p e r a t i o n I ment i oned i n whi ch Li eu-
t e n a n t ROSS was wounded. That w a s r i g h t a f t e r w e a r r i v e d a t
LZ Dottie. Li e ut e na nt ROSS was wounded down n e a r t h e ol d
Fr ench f o r t . I he a r d some r e f e r e n c e t o t h a t . I a l s o he a r d
some rumors i n r e f e r e n c e t o when S p e c i a l i s t GLEGIiOq was k i l l e d .
I he a r d some rumors t h a t t he y k i l l e d some c i v i l i a n s unneces-
s a r i l y .
Q Let me ask you once more, ROSS'S assi gnment was
what ?
A. Second Pl a t oon.
Q. GLEGHORN w a s what ?
A. GLEGHORN was a r i f l e ma n i n my p l a t o o n , 3d Pl a t oon.
Q When he w a s k i l l e d ?
A. When he was k i l l e d he was a r i f l e ma n i n my pl a t oon.
Q The rumors t h a t you he a r d concer n t h e 1st Pl at oon
on t h i s o p e r a t i o n .
A. The 1st Pl a t oon, y e s , si r .
Q I n t h e 1 6 , 1 7 , 18 March t i m e frame.
A. Oh, t h i s was n o t 1 6 , 1 7 , 18 March.
Q It wasn' t?
A. No, si r. Thi s w a s e a r l i e r . You can check f o r Spec-
i a l i s t GLEGHORN, b u t it w a s t h e day t h a t S p e c i a l i s t GLEGHOIW
wa s k i l l e d i n Febr uar y, e a r l y Febr uar y.
Q. What you' r e s a yi ng, t h e rumors you he a r d about t h e
1st Pl a t oon and t h e 2d Pl at oon- -
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) Xo, t h e rumors I he a r d a bout
concer ned t he 1st Pl a t oon.
Q. Only t h e 1st Pl at oon?
(CARTER ) 34
APP T-173
A. Only t he 1st Pl at oon.
Q. A l l r i g h t . The rumors t h a t you heard concerned onl y
t he 1st Pl at oon, and t h i s was on t h e oper at i on t h a t Spe c i a l i s t
GLEGHORN was k i l l e d . Is t h a t cor r ect ?
A. Yes, si r .
COL WI LSON: We r e f e r t o Exhi bi t R-4. GLEGIIORN, J e r r y W. , i s
c a r r i e d as deceased on t he 7t h of February morning r epor t . Do
you know i f GLEGHORN was k i l l e d i n t h e f i e l d , o r di d he d i e
i n t he hos pi t a l ?
A. Ki l l ed i n t he f i e l d .
Q Usually they ent er ed t h a t as "dead on a r r i v a l . "
I ' m s ur pr i s ed t hey di dn' t do it here.
A. H e was dead a t t he t i m e he got t o t h e hos pi t a l .
He was s hot i n t he he a r t .
Q "From dut y t o deceased of wounds, from smal l a r ms
f i r e , 1030 hours. "
A. That sounds reasonabl e. I wrot e a r epor t up on
t h a t , t h a t I t urned i n t o Colonel BARXER, e i t h e r Colonel
BARKER or Major CALHOLJN, and it shoul d be around somewhere.
Q A l l r i ght . This oper at i on t h a t occurred on 7 Feb-
ruary. You s a i d t he rumors you hear d, was t h a t t h e fol l owi ng
day ?
A. No, s i r , t he same day. Almost immediately a f t e r -
wards.
Q. Almost immediately a f t e r t h a t , t h e 1st Pl at oon un-
neces s ar i l y k i l l e d c i vi l i a ns ?
A. Yes, si r .
Q - That ' s t he rumor? I t sounds l i k e a r e p r i s a l of
some s o r t .
A. I t sounds l i k e a r e p r i s a l .
FOR 0FZ71CIAL USE ONLY
Q Do you t hi nk t h a t i f t h i s occur r ed, i t would have been
because of GLEGHORVfs deat h? Was t h i s i n a v i l l a g e ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Could you gi ve me t h e coor di nat es of t h e vi l l a ge ?
A. Yes, si r.
c6L WILSON: W e ' l l take a r e c e s s .
(The hear i ng r eces s ed a t 1056 hour s , 17 Januar y
1970. )
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 1105 hour s , 17 Januar y
1970. )
COL WILSON: The hear i ng w i l l come t o or de r .
RCDR : Pr es ent i s Col onel WILSON and Major THOMAS.
COL WILSON: I remind you are s t i l l under t h. e oa t h.
&. The l oc a t i on where S p e c i a l i s t GLEGHORN . . wa s k i l l e d
was nor t h of Monastery H i l l .
A. That is c or r e c t .
Q- Which put s you cons i der abl y o u t of t h e a r e a of
oper at i ons of t h e Pi nkvi l l e complex.
A. I t w a s s t i l l t h e Task Force Barker AO. The Muscatine
A0 .
Q Thi s w a s t he 1st Pl at oon t h a t a l l e ge dl y d i d t h i s .
Who w a s pl at oon l e a de r a t t h a t t i me?
A. Li eut enant SPRAGGINS .
Q I have a copy of Speci al Order 34 pr ovi ded by
Mr . CARTER, wi t h check marks by t h e names of a l l t h e men in
h i s pl at oon. M r . CARTER, I a l s o ask i f you can i ndi c a t e on
t h i s document t h e squads t h a t t he s e peopl e were i n .
A. I can make an at t empt . I can give you a t l e a s t
a few of them.
(CARTER) 36
APP T-173
Q. What I would l i k e f o r you t o do i s t o j u s t put a
1, 2 , o r 3 , i f you know i t , by t he man' s name. I f you don' t
know i t , i t ' s a l l r i g h t , j u s t d o n ' t put anyt hi ng, and t hen
we w i l l accept t h i s as an e x h i b i t . Af t e r he has done t h i s
you can e n t e r t h i s as an e x h i b i t .
RCDR: Thi s document was l a t e r r ecei ved i n evi dence as
Exhi bi t M-47.
COL WILSON: M r . CARTER, I be l i e ve you had two squads i n your
pl at oon?
A. Yes, s i r .
Q. Suppose you t a ke t i m e r i g h t now t o put t hos e
numbers i n . Speci al Order 34 has been marked. You have by
MCCLOUD 1 (SL) .
A. He was a squad l e a de r . The same a s Ser geant WEB-
STER t he r e .
Q Now, WILLIAMS, Maurice C. P. W a s he your RTO o r what?
A. He was my pl at oon s er geant .
Q I Who was your RTO?
A. HATCH, SP4 HATCH.
Q - D i d you have anot her RTO?
A. I was havi ng RTO problems a t t h a t t i m e . HATCH t ook
over as RTO t he day be f or e t h i s happened.
Q. You d i d n ' t have two RTO's d i d you?
A. Yes , q u i t e o f t e n . Whenever I g o t hol d of two r adi os .
But whoever c a r r i e d my r a di o wa s us ual l y t he same guy, a l -
though var i ous peopl e swi t qhed of f on t he r a di o.
Q. My ques t i on i s t h i s : d i d you have a r a di o f o r t he
company n e t and a r a di o f o r t h e pl at oon n e t ?
A. No, t h e r adi o' f o r my pl at oon n e t w a s my l i t t l e squad
r a d i o which I c a r r i e d. The second r a d i o was j u s t used, l i k e
i f your i n c ont a c t , you have one r a di o t o t he CO and one t o t he
he l i c opt e r . One t o t h e CO. One t o t h e dus t of f . One t o t he CO.
One t o a r t i l l e r y . Something l i k e t h i s .
( CARTER) 37
APP T-173
(1- As f a r as your normal oper at i ons a r e concerned,
a s t o what you a r e supposed t o have, you had a r a di o which
put you i n cont act wi t h t he company commander, which was a
company net . You d i d n ' t have any ot her r adi os a s normal
procedure?
A.
As a normal procedure we t r i e d t o have two r adi os .
Men ' s l i ve s depended on r adi os .
Q That was s o you coul d t a l k d i r e c t l y t o whom?
A. The company commander. The prime r a di o was t o
t a l k t o t he company commander. The second r a di o was t o
t a l k t o t he he l i c opt e r s , a r t i l l e r y , o r dus t of f .
Q Did you have any a r t i l l e r y i ndi vi dual s at t ached t o
the uni t ?
A. We d i d n ' t have any permanently at t ached. Qui t e of-
t e n t h e FO would come out .
Q. When you had t h i s e x t r a r adi o and you wanted t o
t a l k t o t he a r t i l l e r y , d i d you have t he aut hor i t y t o c a l l i n
a cont act mi ssi on?
A. No, sir. I d i d n ' t have t he aut hor i t y t o c a l l a
cont act mi ssi on, but once i t was approved and on t he way I
would a dj us t wi t h t h a t r adi o. I f t h e FO was t o come out w i t h
us , i f t he 81 I s had t h e i r own ne t , and we were usi ng t he mor-
tar--some mor t ar s , t hen t hey would swi t ch of f t h a t n e t and
keep t h e t r a f f i c of f t he company ne t . W e would use t he ot her
r adi o f o r t h a t .
Q When you had mort ar obser ver s, or a r t i l l e r y FO's ,
of course t hey had t h e i r own communication.
A. Sometimes t hey di d. Qui t e of ten--they always h-ad
t h e i r own communications. Sometimes company commanders s ay,
"Hey, I want your r adi o. Don' t t ake it away." They got an-
ot her r adi o and used h i s .
APP T-173
COL WILSON: Major TIIOMAS, I am goi ng t o gi ve you Speci al Order
34 f o r t he e xhi bi t . I want you t o make a copy of t h i s and
r et ur n t he s pe c i a l or der back t o t he wi t ness and gi ve Major
AP I C I a copy.
RCDR: Yes, si r.
COL WILSON: M r . CARTER, do you know i f t he r e was ever a prob-
lem w i t h mari j uana i n B Company?
A. Yes, si r. I t hi nk t he r e was a problem wi t h mar-
ijuana i n B Company.
Q Was it s er i ous ?
A. It was pr eval ent . I don' t consi der it a s er i ous
problem, but it was pr eval ent .
Q Do you bel i eve t h a t any of t h e t r oops used mari-
juana pr i or t o going on oper at i ons?
A. Not pr i or t o going on oper at i ons .
Q O r duri ng oper at i ons?
A. Out i n t he f i e l d ? Maybe a f t e r t hey had set up.
I caught a whi ff of it her e and t he r e out i n t he f i e l d , i f
you' r e s e t up f o r t he ni ght def ensi ve pos i t i on, and you' r e
going t o s t ay i n t h a t pl ace a l l ni ght .
Q- Do you bel i eve, t h a t mari j uana had anyt hi ng t o do
wi t h t he s i t u a t i o n t h a t occurred, o r t he rumors t h a t you
heard about unnecessary k i l l i n g by t he 1st Pl at oon?
A. I don' t bel i eve t h a t t he two a r e connected a t a l l .
F i r s t , t hey wouldn ' t be, usi ng it a t t h a t pa r t i c ul a r t i me.
A t l e a s t I don' t t hi nk t hey would be usi ng it. Second of a l l ,
I j u s t don' t know about t he e f f e c t s . Everybody I saw t h a t was
stoned--they used t o go around and check bunkers every once
i n a whi l e. Anything t h a t would s m e l l s us pi ci ous . A t l e a s t
t hey' r e awake. The men were awake and a l e r t .
Q. M r . CARTER, we '11 t er mi nat e t he ques t i on por t i on
of t he i nt er vi ew, except t o ask i f you have any f ur t he r t e s t i -
mony o r st at ement t h a t you want t o make t h a t might gi ve us
an i n s i g h t i n t o what happened on 16, 17, 18 March 1968?
A. I don' t remember anyt hi ng e l s e . Oh , except f o r one
t hi ng. The ar ea e a s t of LZ Upt i ght . There were a l o t of
(CARTER) 39
CONFIDENTIAL
(CARTER)
APP T-173
A. I doubt i t . I r e a l l y doubt it. I d o n ' t t hi nk i t
coul d have happened wi t hout me hear i ng some p r e t t y s t r ong
rumors.
Q
Do you t hi nk Li eut enant WILLINGHAM wa s capabl e of
doi ng anyt hi ng l i k e t h i s ?
A. No.
Q - D o you t hi nk t h a t t he o f f i c e r s t h a t you knew i n t he
u n i t s t h e r e would have condoned such a t hi ng?
No. They ke pt s ayi ng d o n ' t do it.
Q What abbut Li eut enant CALLEY? Did you e ve r m e e t him?
A. I never met Li eut enant CALLEY.
Q Did you know Capt ai n MEDINA?
A. I knew him by s i g h t . I d o n ' t remember s p e c i f i c a l l y
ever t a l k i n g t o him.
Q - You know what t h i s is des cr i bed as, t h e oper at i on
t h a t t ook pl ace down t he r e , and a l s o your oper at i on t h a t you
des cr i bed t a ki ng pl ace up nor t h of My Lai (I), Pi nkvi l l e it-
self. W e would c a l l a de ni a l oper at i on.
A. A de ni a l oper at i on. That means you deny the enemy
h i s r esour ces.
Q Have you e ve r hear d any of t he s e oper at i ons r e f e r r e d
t o a s t h a t ?
A. No, I have never hear d of them as de ni a l ope r a t i ons ,
but t he concept was t h e r e , Burni ng v i l l a g e s , k i l l t h e ani mal s,
deny Cha r l i e h i s food source--dest roy the food.
Q. Was t h e term "s ear ch and de s t r oy, " "sear ch and
c l e a r " used ver y much i n B Company?
A. Search was. "Search and de s t r oy, " "sear ch and
c l e a r . " There i s no real p a r t i c u l a r d i s t i n c t i o n . Search
t h e v i l l a g e .
( CARTER) 41
APP T-173
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
Q. Before t er mi nat i ng, I would l i k e t o remind you
t h a t t h e r e are two t hi ngs t h a t I r e que s t you do. One i s t o s i t
down wi t h Col onel NOLL and f i l l o u t a map, and des cr i be as
best you can what happened. I f we can, r e f e r it t o t h e map;
i f not , a de s c r i pt i on. Second, when you q e t done wi t h t h e
map, Major THOMAS w i l l gi ve you an addr es s and an envel ope
f o r t he ma t e r i a l we asked you f o r ear l i er . I f you would mai l
it t o me I woul d a ppr e c i a t e i t . I f you have a probl em g e t t i n g
t h i s s t u f f r epr oduced, you can send it t o us and we I l l r epr o-
duce i t and send it back t o you.
A. There is a l i b r a r y acr oss- - f i ve bl ocks from me.
COL WILSON: You have t h e address' , addr essed t o your a t t e n t i o n ,
s o t h a t i t w i l l comebackt o you.
RCDR: Y e s , si r.
COL WILSON: I r e que s t t h a t you do not di s c us s your t est i mony
i n t h i s i nve s t i ga t i on wi t h o t h e r s , i nc l udi ng o t h e r wi t nes s es
f o r t h e i n v e s t i g a t i o n , except as you may be r equi r ed t o do s o
be f or e compet ent j u d i c i a l o r l e g i s l a t i v e body. I n a ddi t i on,
you a r e caut i oned t h a t i f you are s u b j e c t t o the or de r i s s ued
by t he mi l i t a r y judge i n thepr e s e nt cour t - mar t i al . case
Uni t ed St a t e s v. Ca l l e y your appearance h e r e i n no way changes
t he a p p l i c i b i l i t y and effectof t h a t or der . You are not , and
I doubt t h a t you- wi l l be, but t h i s i s a s t andar d caut i on.
W e a ppr e c i a t e your coming.
COI, WILSON: The hear i ng will recess.
( The hearing r eces s ed a t 1130 hour s , 17 Januar y
1970. )
WITNESS: DUFF, Edward E.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 2 January 1 9 7 0
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 1 6 MARCH 1968: Forward Observer from
t h e weapons pl at oon wor ki r qwi t h t h e Thi r d Pl at oon, B/4/3.
The wi t nes s , who was wi t h t he br i gade i n ~ a w a i ip r i o r
. t o goi ng t o Vietnam, had r ecei ved t r a i n i n g i n t he handl i ng
of pr i s one r s of war (pg. 3 ) . H e s t a t e d t hey we r e t o l d not
t o harm noncombat ant s, and w e r e t o r e t ur n them t o headquar t er s
f o r ques t i oni ng (pg. 3 ) . H e r e c a l l e d l e c t u r e s bei ng gi ven on
t he Geneva Convent i ons (pg. 3 ) . The wi t nes s had not s een
, Exhi bi t M-2 pr evi ous l y (pg. 3 ) . H e s t a t e d t h a t he had seen
l i t e r a t u r e wi t h t he t r a n s l a t i o n s of Exhi bi t M-3, but he had
not seen t he car d (pg. 4 ) . H e d i d not r e c a l l any l e c t u r e s
bei ng gi ven on t he r equi r ement of obeyi ng i l l e g a l or de r s
(pg. 3 )
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he r e c a l l e d bei ng t o l d t hey were
t o s ear ch and des t r oy a l l of t h e enemy i n Pi nkvi l l e ( pgs. 4 ,
5 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t t he a r e a was supposed t o be heavi l y
occupi ed by t h e enemy (pg. 5 ) . Thi s w a s t h e i r f i r s t s ear ch
and des t r oy mi ssi on (pg. 5 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t c a pt a i n MICHLES
gave t he f i n a l b r i e f i n g t o t h e company bef or e t hey l e f t t he
pick-up zone (pg. 5 ) . He coul d not r e c a l l who was t h e pl at oon
l e a de r a t t h e t i me, but he t hought t h a t it mi ght have been
Li eut enant CARTER (pg. 7 ) . The wi t nes s d i d n o t recal l bei ng
t o l d on t h i s oper at i on t o do anyt hi ng wi t h f oods t uf f s o r
l i ve s t oc k (pg. 7 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t normal l y when t hey came
(DUFF) 1
SUM APP T-268
acr os s a l a r g e cache of food t hey would bag itand send it
t o t h e r e a r ( pgs. 7 , 8 ) . The wi t nes s di d not r e c a l l any
s p e c i a l i n s t r u c t i o n s gi ven t o t h e squads, nor d i d he
r e c a l l what t he pl at oons i n t he company were supposed t o do
(pg. 8 ) . He di d not know what enemy f or c e was supposed t o
be i n th.e a r e a (pg. 8 ) .
3 . ASSAULT ACTIVITIES.
a . Ac t i v i t i e s on 16 March.
The wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l which l i f t he
went i n on, b u t s t a t e d t h a t he t hought t hey were e i t h e r t h e
l as t o r t h e next t o t he l a s t pl at oon t o g e t i n (pg. 9 ) .
H e s t a t e d t h a t he t hought everyone s pr ead o u t when t hey
l anded and he t hought he r e c a l l e d s eei ng g ~ n s h i p s ~ a l t h o u g h
he di d not see them f i r e ( pgs. 9 , 1 0 ) . He r e c a l l e d
Li eut enant COCHRAN bei ng k i l l e d a f t e r t hey had s t a r t e d
t h e i r movement t o t h e l e f t (pg. 1 0 ) . H e d i d not t hi nk t hey
had got t e n a s f a r a s t h e d i r t r oad when COCHRAN h i t t h e
mine (pg. 11). He s t a t e d t h a t t hey were from 150 t o 200
met er s s out h (pg. 11). Af t e r t he expl osi on everyone st opped
i n pl ace and t h e wi t nes s t hought he coul d remember a medevac
chopper coming i n ( pgs. 11, 1 2 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t an
E5 t ook over f o r COCHRAN and,when t r yi ng t o r egr oup, t he
pl at oon h i t anot her mine (pg. 1 2 ) . Everyone wai t ed 15
t o 20 mi nut es and t hen t he pl at oons got t oge t he r and ki nd of
"cool ed itf o r t h e day" (pg. 1 2 ) .
( 2 ) Movement of t he u n i t .
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t hey cr os s ed
Highway 521 on t h e i r way t o t he v i l l a g e where t hey were
pl anni ng t o s ear ch (pg. 1 3 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t t hey went t hrough
one v i l l a g e and rounded up t he c i v i l i a n s (pg. 1 4 ) . H e
s t a t e d t h a t t h e r e were not t oo many pr e s e nt i n t he v i l l a g e
and t he r e was no i n t e r p r e t e r pr e s e nt a t t h a t t i m e (pg. 1 4 ) .
Or i gi na l l y, t h e wi t nes s s t a t e d , t he second pl at oon was not
supposed t o r e j o i n t h e t h i r d pl at oon u n t i l t he l a a ge r
pos i t i on, b u t a f t e r t h e expl osi ons t h e i r or de r s were changed
and t hey j oi ned them ( pgs. 1 4 , 1 5 ) . The c i v i l i a n s t hey
rounded up were onl y kept whi l e t h e v i l l a g e w a s sear ched
( pgs. 15, 1 6 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d f o r t he most p a r t t hey
onl y saw women and c hi l dr e n (pg. 1 6 ) . He r e c a l l e d moving
t o t he l a a ge r a r e a a t approxi mat el y 1500 hour s and s t a t e d
t h a t C Company m e t up wi t h them. The l a a ge r w a s nor t hwest
of t he v i l l a g e (pg. 1 6 ) . He di d not s e any det ai nees i n
t h e ni ght l a a ge r a r e a , nor d i d he di s c us s t he oper at i on wi t h
(DUFF)
2 SUM APP T-268
members of C Company (pg. 1 6 ) . The wi t nes s i d e n t i f i e d var i ous
peopl e guar di ng pr i s one r s (See Exhi bi t L i s t i n f r a ) (pg. 1 7 ) .
The wi t nes s found itd i f f i c u l t t o di s t i ngui s h between t h e
var i ous days i n t h e oper at i on. H e d i d not recal l anyt hi ng
unusual happeni ng on t h e eveni ng of 16 March (pg. 19).
b. Ac t i v i t i e s on 17March.
The wi t nes s di d not see TAYLOR bei ng wounded by
t h e mine expl osi on a t t he br i dge (pg. 20) . H e s t a t e d t h a t
he r e c a l l e d gunshi ps coming i n and h i t t i n g t h e v i l l a g e on
t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge , b u t he t hought t h a t t h e
second pl at oon had cr os s ed f i r s t (pg. 20) . The wi t nes s
s t a t e d t h a t t hey l a i d down f i r e f o r t h e second pl at oon t o
s uppor t them i n g e t t i n g acr os s t h e br i dge (pg. 21) . H e
s t a t e d t h a t he t hovght TAYLOR was pat ched up by a medic
(pg. 2 1 ) . He coul d not r e c a l l what t he f i r s t pl at oon w a s
doi ng as t hey were s epar at ed by t h e r i v e r (pg. 21) . He
s t a t e d t h e second pl at oon swept t h e v i l l a g e and sear ched
itwhi l e h i s pl at oon went down t he peni ns ul a (pg. 22) .
H e d i d n o t r e c a l l des t r oyi ng any mines a s t hey moved ouf
nor d i d he r e c a l l s e e i ng any smoke ( pg. 2 3 ) . He d i d not
r e c a l l any r i f l e f i r e o r demol i t i ons t o t he r i g h t o f h i s
pl at oon (pg. 23) . He di d not t hi nk t h a t t h e mor t ar pl at oon
f i r e d any mi ssi ons t h a t day and he d i d not see any Navy
Swi f t Boat s (pg. 2 4 ) .
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18, March.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he r e c a l l e d t h e f i r s t
pl at oon havi ng a machinegunner k i l l e d i n t he mor t ar a t t a c k
t h a t occur r ed t h a t ni ght (pg. 25) . H e d i d not r e c a l l
much which happened dur i ng t h e day (pg. 25) . H e s t a t e d t h a t
one day t hey went up and sear ched t h e peni ns ul a (pg. 2 5 ) .
H e d i d not r e c a l l any s mal l arms f i r e dur i ng t h e a t t a c k t h a t
ni ght , nor d i d he r e c a l l any det ai nees bei ng hel d i n t h e i r
l a a ge r pos i t i on ( pgs. 25, 26).
a. The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t Robert GELDMEYER us ual l y
t ook a number of phot ographs on t he oper at i ons .they had.
gone on (pg. 33) .
b. The wi t nes s never saw any mar i j uana bei ng used
by members of t h e company (pg. 34) .
(DUFF) 3 SUM APP T-268
EXHI BI TS
---
NUMBSR DE:SCRlIPTION NOTES PAGES
----
1- WiE d i d not r e c a l l 7
MACV Card "Nine Rul es" t h i s car d.
---. ------
I**-+-
MACV Card "Tne Enemy i n
M- 3 t h i s car d.
~t recognize
P-18 ~ ~ i s c e l l a n e o u s phot o l ceci l HOFFMAN. 1 l6
/ W i t l o c a m t h e
Mi scel l aneous phot o scene a s just be-
--
and i d e n t i f i e d an
~ n t e r p r e t e r .
---
Mi scel l aneous phot o --
----r--
- Tit ----- i d e n t i f i e y - ; - - -
P -2 2
ce11.; i _neous__~ho. t % --
i CPT
-. .-----
I
( DUFF)
4
SUM APP T-268
(The h e a r i n g reconvened a t 0937 hour s , 29 Januar y
1970. )
RCDR : The f ol l owi ng named pe r s ons a r e p r e s e n t : COL WILSON,
The f i r s t wi t ne s s i s Mr . Edward E. DUFF.
(MR DUFF w a s c a l l e d as a wi t n e s s , w a s sworn, and
t e s t i f i e d as f ol l ows :)
, P l e a s e s t at e your f u l l name, oc c upa t i on, and resi-
dence.
A. Edward Ever et t DUFF. I work a t Dana Cor por t a t i on,
f a c t o r y work. I l i ve a t Os s i an, I ndi ana.
COL WILSON: M r . DUFF, w e r e you gi ven a copy of t h e g e n e r a l
i nf or ma t i on s h e e t ? Did you have a chance t o r e a d t h a t ?
A. Y e s , I d i d .
Q D o you have any q u e s t i o n on t h i s ?
A. No.
(The s h e e t r e a d by Mr . DUFF, a one-page document
e n t i t l e d , "Gener al I nf or ma t i on f o r Wi t nesses Appear i ng Bef or e
I nt e r vi e w Team C, " w a s r e c e i ve d i n e vi de nc e and e n t e r e d as
Ex h i b i t M-81. )
COL WILSON: M r . DUFF, l e t me , b e f o r e we s t a r t , i nt r oduc e
I nt e r vi e w Teap C. Thi s t eam i s composed of t h r e e pe r s ons ,
mys el f , Col onel NOLL, and .Mr. WALSH. Mr . WALSH i s a c i v i l i a n
a t t o r n e y a ppoi nt e d by t h e Se c r e t a r y of t h e Army t o as s i s t
Gener al PEERS. We are a s s i s t i n g Gener al PEERS by i nt e r vi e wi ng
wi t n e s s e s , b u t any c onc l us i ons or recommendat i ons made on t h i s
r e p o r t are h i s r e s p o n s i b i l i t y . W e have no p r e r o g a t i v e on
t h a t p a r t i c u l a r i t e m . Major THOMAS is our r e c or de r . The
t h r e e of us have t h e a u t h o r i t y t o q u e s t i o n you. Gener al
PEERS or o t h e r members of Gener al PEERS' boa r d may come i n
h e r e from t i m e t o t i m e and q u e s t i o n you. I f so, I w i l l i den-
t i f y them i f you d e s i r e , b u t I want t o emphasi ze t h a t t h e
r e p o r t , and t h e c onc l us i ons , and recommendat i ons, and
(DUFF) 1 APP T-268
f i n d i n g s a r e h i s s o l e r e s p o n s i b i l i t y .
Have you di s c us s e d t h i s o p e r a t i o n wi t h anyone s i n c e
you l e f t Vi et nam, t h a t was a s s i gne d t o t h e u n i t ?
(MR WALSH e n t e r e d t h e he a r i ng. )
A. No, I h a v e n ' t s e e n anyone s i n c e I l e f t Vi et nam. I
came back b e f o r e t h e rest of t h e u n i t d i d . 1.w a s wounded i n
J une , and I l e f t i n J une, and t h e rest of t h e company came back
i n November, I b e l i e v e . I h a v e n ' t s e e n anyone i n t h e u n i t s i nc e .
Q What was your assi gnment i n March of 1968?
A. P i n k v i l l e , I gue s s , was t h e b i g g e s t o p e r a t i o n , t h e
way I under s t and.
Q I want t o go back t o t h e sequence of que s t i oni ng.
The f i r s t q u e s t i o n s I ' m goi ng t o ask you w i l l be r e a l l y con-
c e r n i n g t r a i n i n g . The n e x t series w i l l be concer ni ng t h e b r i e f -
i n g p r i o r t o t h e a s s a u l t , and t h e n e x t w i l l be t h e ope r a t i on.
That sequence, we ' r e goi ng t o t r y t o f ol l ow it. What was your
dut y assi gnment i n t h e company o f 16 March?
A. I w a s f or war d obs e r ve r .
Q An FO?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Were you a s s i gne d t o t h e weapons pl a t oon?
A. I was a s s i gne d t o t h e 3d Pl a t oon, and I was wi t h t h e
mor t ar pl a t oon. B u t I was a s s i gne d t o the 3d.
Q You w e r e an FO wi t h t h e 3d Pl a t oon from t he weapons
pl a t oon, B/4/3?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Now, you were wi t h t h e br i ga de b e f o r e it went t o
Vietnam?
A. Y e s , I was i n Hawaii wi t h it.
(DUFF) 2
APP T-268
1
Q. Were you gi ven any s p e c i f i c i ns t r uc t i ons on hand-
l i n g noncombatants o r pr i s one r s of war?
A. W e l l , yes , I ' d s ay s o.
Q
Do you remember what you were t o l d t o do wi t h them?
A. Wel l , we w e r e not supposed t o do any harm t o non-
combat ant s. I f w e wanted t o ques t i on them, we w e r e j u s t sup-
posed t o send them back i n t o headquar t er s .
Q How about Geneva Convention? Do you remember
g e t t i n g any l e c t u r e s on t h a t ?
A. Y e s .
Q Did you g e t a car d?
A. Ri ght .
Q Did you e ve r r ecei ve any i nf or mat i on from anyone
on t h e i l l e g a l i t y of or de r s o r t h e r equi r ement t o obey i l l e g a l
or der s ?
A. W e l l , I don' t know about or der s . We were j u s t
supposed t o go by--I don' t knew what t hey mean, "obey i l l e g a l
or de r s , " because w e under st and or de r s a r e supposed t o come from
hi gher , and I guess we ' r e supposed t o f ol l ow or de r s .
Q You never d i d g e t any i nf or mat i on o r i n s t r u c t i o n s
on what t o do i n cas e you r ecei ved an or de r which you consi -
der ed not l e ga l ?
A. Not t h a t I remember.
COL WI LSON: L e t me see t hos e car ds .
(The r ecor der d i d a s di r e c t e d. )
Q - I have Exhi bi t M-2 e n t i t l e d "Nine Rul es. " I t i s
a f a c s i mi l e of a MACV car d. I t i s f r o n t and back t he r e . Have
you seen t h i s car d?
A. I haven' t . I d o n ' t t hi nk so.
(DUFF) 3
APP T-268
Q Exhi bi t M- 3 i s a f a c s i mi l e of anot her MACV car d.
I t i s e n t i t l e d "The Enemy i n Your Hands." Have you seen t h a t
car d?
A. I d o n ' t know about t h e card. The onl y t hi ng I
remember, I t hi nk we had l i t e r a t u r e t h a t gave t h e Engl i sh
t r a n s l a t i o n s , but I don' t remember t h e car ds . The onl y t hi ng
I remember i s t h e pi ece of paper .
Q Thi s i s a wa l l e t - s i z e car d. I f you w e r e gi ven it,
you were pr obabl y t o l d t o keep it i n your wa l l e t , bot h of them.
A. NO, I haven' t had one.
Q Mr . DUFF, t h e next series of que s t i ons w i l l be
concerned wi t h t he b r i e f i n g which you r ecei ved p r i o r t o goi ng
on t h i s combat' a s s a u l t . I want t o be s ur e t h a t you under-
s t a nd t h a t t h e oper at i on t h a t we a r e r e f e r r i n g t o i s an opera-
t i ~ nt h a t t ook pl a c e i n Pi nkvi l l e , and you had about 15 o r 16
c a s u a l t i e s on t h i s oper at i on. One was Li eut enant COCHRAN;
anot her one w a s Ser geant TAYLOR. Do t he s e names mean anyt hi ng
t o you?
A. Li eut enant COCHRAN, t he pl a t oon' s 81 mor t ar squad
l e a de r . I t hi nk he may have been wi t h t he 2d Pl at oon because
he wa s swi t ched over because one of t h e o t h e r l i e u t e n a n t s was
h u r t , wqs wounded, and t hey pul l e d him out .
Q Does t h i s f i x t h e per i od of t i me? Do you r e c a l l
t h i s p a r t i c u l a r oper at i on t h a t t hes e peopl e were wounded and
k i l l e d on?
A. Ri ght .
Q Th a t ' s t h e oper at i on we a r e r e f e r r i n g t o . You
were pr obabl y gi ven some s o r t of i n s t r u c t i o n s , o r b r i e f i n g , o r
or der p r i o r t o t h i s oper at i on which t ook pl a c e o r began on
t h e 16t h of March. I would l i k e f o r you t o t el l . me t o t h e
b e s t of your r e c o l l e c t i o n what you we r e t o l d ?
A. Th e b e s t I remember we w e r e t o l d t o s ear ch and
des t r oy a l l . t h e enemy i n Pi nkvi l l e , and we had a combat
a s s a ul t . They f l ew us i n . I guess 2 o r 3 hour s we was
t he r e .
Y
(DUFF) 4
APP T-268
Q You' re ahead of me now. I ' m t r y i n g t o f i g u r e out
what you were t ol d. Her e' s what I ' m goi ng t o do. When we g e t
t hrough wi t h t h i s phase of t he ques t i oni ng, we a r e goi ng t o
gi ve you a b r i e f i n g on what we know happened and t hen t r y t o
f i l l i n what i s mi ssi ng wi t h a ddi t i ona l i nf or mat i on you may
have. Ri ght nQw, bef or e we t e l l you anyt hi ng which we know,
I ' m anxi ous t o know what you were t ol d? What w a s goi ng t o hap-
pen on 16, 17, 18, and 1 9 March. What you w e r e t o l d , not
what happened. What w a s goi ng t o happen?
A. W e were supposed t o s ear ch and dest r oy it.
Q - Was t h i s a normal mi ssi on f o r B Company?
A. Wel l , t h i s w a s supposed t o be heavi l y enemy-occu-
pied. Most of t h e t i me we s ear ch and j u s t s ear ch more or l e s s .
Q Sear ch and c l e a r ?
A. Ri ght ,
Q How many t i mes di d you have a s ear ch and des t r oy
oper at i on?
A. W e l l , I t hi nk t h a t was t he onl y t i m e , r e a l l y . I
don' t know. I t hi nk t h a t was pr obabl y about the onl y or der s
w e were gi ven t o s ear ch and de s t r oy.
Q. Who b r i e f e d you? Who t o l d you you w e r e goi ng on
t h i s combat a s s a u l t ?
A. Act ual l y, o l d MICHLES gave t he f i n a l b r i e f i n g be-
f or e w e l e f t .
Q That was where, a t t h e pi ckup zone?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Who b r i e f e d you bef or e t h a t ? Who t o l d you what
was goi ng t o happen bef or e t h a t ?
A. I t hi nk he was t h e onl y one t h a t t o l d us what we
were goi ng t o do t he r e . I t hi nk t h e col onel f l ew i n and gave
him t he or der s .
(DUFF) APP T-268
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY,
.
Q I mean who i s your squad l eader ?
A. I d i d n ' t have a squad l eader . FO's j u s t had a pl a-
t oon l eader .
Q What about t he pl at oon l e a de r , d i d he g e t t h e squad
l e a de r s t oget her ? You j u s t went down t o t h e pi ckup zone and
t he company commander s a i d: "Get on t h e a i r c r a f t . I ' m not goi ng
t o t e l l you which one t o g e t on. G e t on t h e a i r c r a f t . " You got
some i nf or mat i on t o t ake s o many r a t i o n s , o r s o much ammu-
n i t i o n , o r you' r e goi ng t o be doi ng t h i s o r t h a t . Now, who
gave it t o you?
A. I t must have been t h e l i e ut e na nt , t hen.
Q Who w a s t h e pl at oon l eader ?
A. Wel l , we had two. I can l ook t hr ough he r e and t e l , l
you.
(The wi t nes s i s l ooki ng t hr ough t h e company r o s t e r . )
LTC NOLL: It mi ght we l l be t h a t a pl at oon s er geant w a s a c t i ng
pl at oon l e a de r .
A. The 3d Pl at oon t hey got - - Li eut enant LEWIS was a-
t er war ds. W e had a second l i e u t e n a n t , Dave somet hi ng.
COL WILSON: How about a pl at oon s er geant ?
A. W e had a pl at oon s e r ge a nt , MCCLOUD, t h a t t ook over
a f t e r t he 2d Pl at oon l e a de r was wounded. Then t h e 1st Pl at oon
l e a de r was wounded.
Q No, I ' m t e l l i n g how t h e E-6, pl at oon s e r ge a nt ,
t ook over f o r t h e pl at oon l e a de r u n t i l we got anot her l i e u-
t e na nt i n . I don' t be l i e ve t h e pl at oon l e a de r a t t h e t i m e
was David--
LTC NOLL: ( I nt er pos i ng) CARTER?
A. CARTER, r i g h t .
COL WILSON: H e ' s not on t h a t l i s t ?
(DUFF) 6 APP T-268
Q
Do you t hi nk Li eut enant CARTER wa s pl at oon l e a de r
a t t h e t i m e t h i s oper at i on t ook pl ace?
A. Ri ght .
Q .
D o you r e c a l l t h i s b r i e f i n g a t a l l ?
Is t h e r e any-
t hi ng t h a t you remember about anyt hi ng concer ni ng bur ni ng
of houses o r t h e de s t r uc t i on of v i l l a g e s when you say "sear ch
and des t r oy" ?
A.
W e l l , t h e way I under st and s ear ch and des t r oy i s
j u s t s e a r c h a n d des t r oy a l l t h e enemy, and I be l i e ve t h a t i s
t h e or de r s we got when we went t o Pi nkvi l l e . A s f a r a s de-
s t r oyi ng per s onal pr oper t y l i k e t h a t , I don' t t hi nk t h a t ' s
s ear ch and de s t r oy. I don' t be l i e ve anyone else would t a ke
or de r s l i k e t h a t .
Q
I n t he s e s ear ch and de s t r oy mi ssi ons, do you mean
t h a t when you go i n t o t he s e a r e a s you' r e supposed t o des t r oy
t h e i n s t a l l a t i o n s , t h e houses, and s o f or t h?
A. No.
Q
~t doe s n' t mean t h a t ?
(Wi t ness shakes head i n t he negat i ve. )
How about t h e food s t ocks ? What do you do wi t h t h e
food s t ocks ?
A. W e l l , we bagged it, got sandbags. I know we had
s o much rice t h a t we bagged it up and s e n t it back i n . They' d
pi ck it up on choppers and p u l l it back.
Q
What w e r e you t o l d t o do? Were you t o l d t o do
anyt hi ng on t h i s oper at i on about food s t ocks o r l i ve s t oc k?
A. Not as I r e c a l l .
Q Not hi ng mentioned?
A. (Shaki ng head i n t h e negat i ye) J u s t when we would
g e t a heavy cache, we would bag it up and send it back i n .
(DUFF) 7 APP T-268
Q. That i s normal pr ocedur e?
A. Ri ght .
Q What about di s pos i t i on of i nha bi t a nt s ? Was t h e r e
anyt hi ng s t a t e d about t echni ques pe c ul i a r t o t h i s oper at i on
which were not conduct ed on o t h e r oper at i ons ?
A. I don' t t hi nk s o, si r .
Q - Do you remember whet her t he r e w a s any s p e c i a l
i n s t r u c t i o n s gi ven t o any of t he squad l e a de r s a s t o what t h e
squad was supposed t o do?
A. No.
Q - DO you know what t he pl at oons i n t h e company w e r e --
supposed t o do, l s t , 213, and 3d Pl at oons?
(Wi t ness shakes head i n negat i ve. )
When t h e company commander b r i e f e d you a t t h a t pi ck-
up zone on t h e morning of t h e 16t h, what d i d he say?
A. The onl y or de r s I remember, you know, we were sup-
posed t o s ear ch and des t r oy. Tha t ' s about it. W e were supposed
t o be a l i t t l e more caut i ous i n t h i s a r e a t han w e had been pr e-
vi ous l y because t h i s a r e a , you know, w a s supposed t o be one of
t h e hi ghl y occupi ed wi t h VC.
Q-
Did you know what enemy f or c e w a s supposed t o be
i n t h e ar ea?
A. No, I doh' t .
Q You say you were wounded i n June?
A. In'June.
Q What t ype wound?
A. My l unq was punct ur ed.
Q. Gunshot wound, s hr apnel , mine?
(DUFF) 8
APP T-268
A. Shr apnel .
Q Wel l , I ' m goi ng t o , a t t h i s poi nt , revi ew t he
oper at i on a s we know it from documents. Then w e ' l l go t hrough
each day of t h e oper at i on and give you i ndi c a t i ons of what w e
t hi nk happened, and s e e i f you can enl ar ge upon it. During
t h i s pr oces s , a f t e r I o r i e n t you on the t a s k f or c e concept and
what had happened on t he f i r s t day, Mr . WALSH w i l l t a ke an a e r i a l
phot ograph and give you a more d e t a i l e d o r i e n t a t i o n . H e j u s t
r et ur ned, and a coupl e phot ographs he t ook a r e he r e which a r e
a l s o he l pf ul . I don' t t hi nk your pl at oon got down t h i s f a r .
(COL WILSON or i e nt e d t h e wi t nes s on t h e map.)
Do you remember which l i f t you w e r e on?
A. No, I don' t .
Q. Do you remember i f t h e r e was any f i r i n g a s you
approached t he l andi ng zone o r a f t e r you got of f t h e a i r c r a f t ?
A. Wel l , a f t e r w e had l anded I don' t t hi nk we had
any f i r i n g , b u t it was j u s t a s h p r t t i m e af t er war ds t h a t we
got i n t he mi nef i el d t he r e , t he 2d Pl at oon di d.
- * . , ..I. qQ.
--
Was t h e r e any smal l arms f i r e a t t h a t t i me?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l any.
Q Was anyone f i r i n g when t hey l e f t t h e a i r c r a f t ?
A. No.
Q Di , d you see any gunshi ps? Did you s t a r t t o say
something?
A. I don' t know i f I ' v e got t h e ope r a t i on mixed up
o r not . I t seemed l i k e when we f i r s t l anded t h e r e mi ght have
been f i r i n g because I remember everybody s pr ead o u t around t h e
ar ea. There wa s j u s t a smal l v i l l a g e , maybe t w o or t h r e e h u t s
o r somet hi ng, r i g h t on t he ot he r side of t h e LZ e i t h e r a t t h i s
oper at i on o r a t t h e next one. I don' t know. I t hi nk we wa s
next t o t h e l a s t o r t h e l a s t pl at oon t o g e t i n , t h e 3d Pl at oon.
Q. Ygu t hi nk you w e r e t h e l a s t pl at oon?
( DUFF) 9 APP T-268
(Wi t ness nods i n t h e af f i r ma t i ve .)
Did you see any gunshi ps?
A. Y e s , I t hi nk t he y had gunshi ps.
Q Could you see them f i r i n g ?
A. No.
Q. A l l r i g h t . I n t h e f i r s t day, we' ve g o t c e r t a i n
a c t i o n s t h a t we t h i n k t ook p l a c e , and a s I h i t one of t h e s e
a c t i o n s , t h e t h r e e of us w i l l ask you any que s t i ons t h a t we
have on t hos e . The f i r s t one was a t 0815. The combat a s s a u l t
came i n g e n e r a l l y i n t h i s a r e a . Remember t h i s i s t h e same
phot ograph t h a t you saw. Thi s i s t h e pe ni ns ul a o u t he r e ,
t h i s i s Pi n k v i l l e . H e r e i s t h e r oad. The l a ndi ng zone was
ge ne r a l l y i n t h i s a r e a . The l a s t l i f t t ouched down a t 0827.
The f i r s t booby t r a p was t r i p p e d wi t h one k i l l e d and f o u r
wounded a t 0845. That wa s g e n e r a l l y i n t h i s a r e a . The second
booby t r a p was t r i p p e d a t 0930 wi t h t h r e e wounded. I t w a s
ge ne r a l l y i n t h i s a r e a . W e onl y show one symbol for it, b u t
it was g e n e r a l l y i n t h i s a r e a . There i s a l i t t l e d i f f e r e n c e
i n t h e d i s t a n c e , and t h e r e was a d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e t i m e . Do
you remember t h i s ?
A. I remember a coupl e of booby t r a p s , ye s .
Q - Ther e w e r e two d i f f e r e n t groups of peopl e h i t .
MR WALSH: Do you remember Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN g o t k i l l e d ?
A. Y e s .
Q W e t h i n k t h a t was t h e f i r s t one. - D o you remember
s e e i ng i t ?
A. W e l l , you see, we had a l r e a dy s t a r t e d o u t t o t h e
l e f t .
Q. The 2d Pl at oon w a s t o your r i g h t ?
A. Ri ght .
Q Do you remember c r o s s i n g t h e r oad, a d i r t road?
( DUFF) 10
APP T-268
A. No, I don' t t hi nk we got up t h a t f a r .
Q When Li eut enant COCIIRAN h i t t he mine, d i d you hear
t he expl osi on?
A. Ri ght .
Q Did you s e e it, s e e it expl ode, o r see any of t h e
peopl e g e t h i t ?
A. W e l l , we seen t h e s m~ k efrom it because we was onl y
maybe 500--maybe 150, 200 meters s out h. W e j u s t s epar at ed. 3d
Pl at oon w a s goi ng on an oper at i on. Thi s i s t he way t h e oper at i on
was s e t up. Then Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t it. I be l i e ve he was
t he f i r s t .
Q Do you remember what Li eut enant COCHRAN was doi ng
a t t h e t i m e he h i t i t ? What was t h e 2d Platoon--what was
t h e i r obj e c t i ve ?
A. I guess t hey was goi ng t o push o f f t o t h e s i d e .
We w e r e goi ng t o push up and m e e t them.
Q e Do you remember i f Li eut enant COCHRAN and h i s pl a-
t oon we r e t r y i n g t o go through a hedge o r a rise around--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) There wa s more l i k e a rise around
t he r e , yes.
Q . We've hear d some t est i mony t h a t t h e r e was ki nd of
a bui l t - up hedge o r somet hi ng t h a t ki nd of sur r ounded t h e main
Pi nkvi l l e a r e a , and t he 2d Pl at oon was supposed t o go i n and
s ear ch it. When t hey t r i e d t o go t hrough t h e hedge, Li eut enant
COCHRAN got h i t .
(Wi t ness nods i n t h e a f f i r ma t i ve . )
When Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t t h a t mine, we under st and
t h a t it w a s around 0845. Did everybody j u s t s t o p i n pl a c e
f ox a whihe?
A. Ri ght .
Q
Do you remember s e e i ng a medevac chopper coming i n?
(DUFF) 11
APP T-268
A. Y e s , I t hi nk t h e r e w a s a medevac chopper.
Q- Can you remember i t ?
A. I t hi nk I can, yes .
Q Can you remember i f it had a r ed c r os s on it o r
coul d i t have been anot her - - j us t a s l i c k command s hi p?
Q- Now, do you remember t h e second mine goi ng o f f ?
A. That w a s Li eut enant COCHRAN and h i s RTO h i t , and
t hen I t hi nk it w a s an E-5 t ook over . H e w a s t r y i n g t o regroup
h i s pl at oon and h i t anot her mine.
Q Had you moved out by t h e t i m e t h e second mine went
of f o r w e r e you s t i l l hol di ng where you were?
A. W e were s t i l l hol di ng.
Q- What happened when t h e second mine went o f f ?
A. I guess t h e r e w a s a l i t t l e more f e a r . The second
mine went o f f , and I t hi nk we s a t t h e r e f o r about 15 o r 20
mi nut es t r y i n g t o g e t t hi ngs back t o normal. Then we al l --
I t hi nk qhe weapons pl at oon, and t h e 2d Pl at oon, and t h e 3d
Pl at oon, and t h e CO a l l got t oget her . I ns t e a d of goi ng t hrough
Pi nkvi l l e , we went around by t h e 3d Pl at oon. The 2d Pl at oon
went wi t h him, and a l l more o r less got t oge t he r and went out
t o t h i s s i d e and j u s t ki nd of "cool ed i t " f o r t h e day.
Q. By t he s i d e ? You mean l ooki ng t o t he nor t h and
moving up t o t h e nor t hwest a l i t t l e b i t ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Do you remember Col onel BARKER'S s h i p coming i n ?
A. I t hi nk he come i n j u s t bef or e o r a f t e r we grouped
up wi t h C Company because he came i n t o t h e l a a ge r pos i t i on. I
t hi nk t h a t ' s when Col onel BARKER came i n , but t h a t w a s l a t e i n
t h e af t er noon.
(MR WALSH wi t hdrew from t h e hear i ng. )
(DUFF) 1 2
APP T-268
LTC NOLL: I would l i k e t o f i n d out , concent r at e on t h i s t i me
when t h e two mine expl os i ons occur r ed. We've got an i de a t h a t
t h e y ' r e about 4 5 mi nut es a pa r t . Is t h i s t he way you r e c a l l i t ?
Do you r e c a l l how much t i me?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk t he r e was t h a t much t i m e between them
because we j u s t h a d n ' t moved any.
QI The t hi ng t h a t happened, t h e medevac s h i p came i n
and got o u t Li eut enant COCHRAN and t h e f our o t h e r peopl e t h a t
were wounded. That s hi p had l e f t , I ' m assuming, bef or e t h e
second expl osi on had occur r ed.
(Wi t ness nods i n t he a f f i r ma t i ve .)
Did you t hi nk t h a t you we r e st i l l back i n t h e LZ
when Li eut enant COCHRAN w a s wounded?
A. No.
Q= When w e t a l k about c r os s i ng t h a t r oad, we're t a l k i n g
about c r os s i ng t h a t t r a i l , Route 521. Had you cr os s ed t h a t ?
A. Y e s , we w e r e up goi ng t o t h e v i l l a g e .
Q - What was t he mi ssi on of t h e 3d Pl at oon t h a t day?
I n o t h e r words, what w e r e you pl anni ng t o do?
A. W e l l , t he whole company was j u s t goi ng t o s ear ch.
If there was any a c t i on, w e w a s supposed t o des t r oy t h e enemy.
Q. You w e r e t o l d you were goi ng t o t h i s p a r t i c u l a r
haml et . O r were you t o l d t h a t ?
A. We 1 . 1 , ' whenever I went on an ope r a t i on, we was t o l d
t he haml et where we was goi ng, b u t I don ' t remember which one.
Q Do you r e c a l l how t h e second group of peopl e t h a t
were wounded were evacuat ed?
A. W e went t hrough one v i l l a g e t o t h e l e f t . I t was a
smal l - - t he o u t s k i r t s of Pi nkvi l l e o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t . I
don ' t remember e xa c t l y what v i l l a g e i t was.
(DUFF) APP T-268
Q. D i d you c o l l e c t t h e i nha bi t a nt s of t h a t v i l l a g c
i n one group?
A. Yes, w e rounded up--on t h e oper at i on, we rounded
up I don' t know how many c i v i l i a n s .
Q - I ' m t a l k i n g about t h i s morning, on t h e day of
t h e 16t h.
A. The way I r e c a l l it, t h e r e wa s n' t t h a t many peopl e
i n t h e f i r s t v i l l a g e t h a t we went t o . W e went t o s ear ch; we
rounded up a l l c i v i l i a n s , b u t I don' t t hi nk t h e r e was t h a t
many t he r e .
Q . Was t h e r e any i n t e r p r e t e r t h e r e t o ques t i on them?
A. Not a t t h a t t i me. H e came i n l a t e r .
Q When d i d he come i n ?
A. I t hi nk he came i n wi t h Col onel BARKER. H e
came i n t he l ower a r e a t he r e . I t hi nk 3d Pl at oon went down,
which would be s out h on t he map, went down t o t h e bi gger p a r t ,
l i t t l e i s l a n d t he r e . The 3d Pl at oon went t h a t way. I
t hi nk when we had them a l l rounded up, we had an i n t e r p r e t e r
come i n. The i n t e r p r e t e r s d i d n ' t s t a y i n t h e f i e l d wi t h us.
They j u s t f l ew i n a s we needed them.
COL WI LSON: There i s one ques t i on I want t o ask. You mentioned
t h a t t he 2d and 3d Pl at oons s o r t of got t oge t he r . Was t h e r e
a change i n i n s t r u c t i o n s t o t h e 2d Pl at oon t h a t you know,
change i n or der s ?
A. Yes. You s e e , t he y we r e n' t goi ng t o meet u n t i l
t h e eveni ng i n t he l a a ge r pos i t i on. Then a f t e r t h e 2d Pl at oon
you know, g o t p r e t t y w e l l be a t r i g h t t h e r e i n t h e f i r s t b i t of
t he ope r a t i on, t hey j u s t grouped wi t h us . Af t e r we went
t hrough that one v i l l a g e , we ' set up, not a per i met er , a bl ock-
i ng f or ce for C Company u n t i l C Company came.
Q - Thi s w a s when bot h pl at oons were t oget her ?
A. Ri ght .
( DUFF ) 14
APP T-268
Q - The 2d Pl at oon, you under st and, d i d r e c e i ve a
change i n or der s ?
A. Oh, yeah, d e f i n i t e l y .
Q They j oi ned you a t t h a t t i me. Ot her wi se, t hey would
have been--what were t hey supposed t o do?
A. They were goi ng s t r a i g h t on t hrough t h e v i l l a g e .
Q Pi nkvi l l e ?
A. Yes.
Q - They were goi ng i n t o Pi nkvi l l e ?
A. Ri ght .
Q - One pl at oon?
A, W e l l , t h e way w e w e r e s pr ead out , t he 1st Pl at oon
went o f f .
Q I under st and.
A. I t hi nk t h a t ' s when Lar r y g o t h i t , wi t h t h e 1st
Pl at oon over on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h e br i dge. W e was going--
t he r e wa s a v i l l a g e o f f t h i s way. W e w e r e goi ng o u t and up,
and t h e 2d Pl at oon w a s goi ng s t r a i g h t up t o t h e f i r s t v i l l a g e
t her e.
W e w a s goi qg more ox less on t h e out s i de t o a smal l er - -
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) The v i l l a g e t h a t you a l l moved
over t o and s ear ched, how many hut s w e r e i n t h i s v i l l a g e ?
A. W e l l , I don' t r e a l l y r e c a l l , b u t I know t h e r e wasn ' t
no 20 peopl e t h e r e , 20 c i v i l i a n s .
(COL WILSON withdrew from t h e hear i ng. )
LTC NOLL: What happened t o t he peopl e t h a t you rounded up?
How l ong d i d you keep them? When w e r e t hey r el eas ed?
A. W e l l , t hey pr obabl y d i d n ' t take maybe 30 o r 4 5
mi nut es t o s ear ch t h e v i l l a g e , maybe a l i t t l e l onger . Mostly
(DUFF)
15 APP T- 268
t h e r e was--I t h i n k t h e r e was one man i n t h e whol e gr oup. M o s t
ever y v i l l a g e we went t o t h e r e was j u s t women and s m a l l k i d s ,
and I t h i n k t h a t ' s about a l l t h e r e was e xc e pt f o r maybe one o r
two o l d men. I r e c a l l maybe one man, and he was p r e t t y o l d , and
w e j u s t k e p t them t h e r e , you know, j u s t l ong enough t o s e a r c h
t h e v i l l a g e , and we r e l e a s e d them.
Q - Where was your l a a g e r a r e a t h a t eveni ng wi t h res-
p e c t t o t h a t v i l l a g e ? Did you move r i g h t o u t s i d e t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. L e t ' s see, we moved n o r t h and then we moved out.
You see, we moved on o u t s i d e t h e v i l l a g e . Then C Company m e t
up wi t h us . I guess it was l a t e a f t e r noon, 2 o r 3 o ' c l o c k i n
t h e a f t e r noon. Then we moved, I t h i n k we moved t o t h e w e s t .
So it would be nor t hwes t from t h e v i l l a g e , and t h i s was t o t h e
wi de open s pa c e . I t was p r e t t y c l e a r t h e r e .
Q . Di d you t a l k t o any members from C Company?
A. Y e s , I had f r i e n d s I was wi t h i n C Company.
B Did t he y d i s c u s s t h e i r ope r a t i on?
A. No, I d o n ' t remember. They j u s t s a i d t h e y had been
t hr ough a v i l l a g e and was pus hi ng t owar ds u s . Th a t ' s t h e onl y
t h i n g I know.
Q Did you see any d e t a i n e e s i n your n i g h t l a a g e r
p o s i t i o n ?
A. I d o n ' t t h i n k s o , t h e f i r s t n i g h t , no.
Q. Did you h e a r of anyone, any d e t a i n e e s i n t h e a r e a
t h a t n i g h t ?
( Wi t ness s hakes head i n t h e n e g a t i v e . )
Do you r e c ogni z e anybody i n t h i s phot o, P-18?
A. Thi s i s HUFFMAN. Ri ght , C e c i l HUFFMAN; he w a s i n
mor t ar pl a t oon.
(2. A r e t h e s e t h e peopie t h a t you r ounded up t h a t day?
(DUFF) 1 6
APP T-268
A. Tha t ' s got t o be on t h e l ower v i l l a g e , on t h e
l ~ w e rp a r t of t h e map t he r e . Tha t ' s t h e onl y pl a c e we pi cked
up any men t h a t I can remember on t h a t oper at i on, and t he s e
her e were hel d. Thi s w a s t he second day, I ' m p r e t t y s ur e , where
we l aager ed t h a t ni ght , e i t h e r t h e second o r t he t h i r d day.
You can see r i g h t - - i t ' s r e a l sandy because I know we dug i n .
There was n' t nokhing t o di ggi ng i n on t h e a r e a on t h e beach,
and we had an i n t e r p r e t e r f l y i n . I guess it w a s a Thai o r
somet hi ng.
Q So you d o n ' t r ecogni ze t h e t e r r a i n , o r do you
r ecogni ze t h a t t e r r a i n ? I n o t h e r words, can you i d e n t i f y
on t he map where t h i s l oc a t i on i s ?
A. The onl y pl a c e I ' d have t o s ay would be on t h e
lower p a r t . You s e e t h e f i r s t v i l l a g e we come i n .
Q - Did you s e e HUFFMAN t he r e wi t h t h e pr i s one r s ?
A. Yes, I remember him wi t h t h e pr i s one r s because he
and TREGARTHEN would be t he ones t h a t t ook c a r e of t h e pr i s one r s .
Q. Do you know who t ook t h i s pi c t ur e ?
A. No, I d o n ' t have any i dea.
Q - P-19?
A. Thi s would be j u s t be f or e you go a c r os s t h e br i dge.
Q
On what day? Do you know who t hi ; i s ?
A. That musk be t h e i n t e r p r e t e r t he r e .
Q H e be l i e ve s t he. boy i n uni form i n P-19 i s t h e
i n t e r p r e t e r . P-20?
A. Tha t ' s HOOTON, and t h a t ' s--he was a s e r ge a nt who
went back t o suppl y.
Q - The man wi t h t he b a r i s Dan HOOTON. MARSHALL?
A. Ri ght , t h i s would be QUINTANILLA r i g h t he r e l ooki ng
down.
(DUFF) APP T-268
,
Q.
The man wi t hout a hel met l ooki ng down i s who?
A. QUINTANILLA. H e was wounded l a t e r on. I t h i n k h e
g o t bot h l e g s blowed o f f .
Q Do you r e c ogni z e anyone in P-21?
No, i t ' s j u s t t h e i n t e r p r e t e r t h e r e .
Q. Did you e ve r see him be f or e ?
A. I d o n ' t remember. They a l l l ook about a l i k e t o me .
A. No, .I d o n ' t know anyone t h e r e .
A. That i s Ca pt a i n MICHLES t h e r e .
Q. What a bout t h i s t e r r a i n , do you r e c ogni z e t h a t (re-
f e r r i n g t o MAP-1) ?
A. Thi s would have t o b e somewhere i n c l o s e t o t h e
P i n k v i l l e a r e a . Thi s l ooks l i k e t h a t may b e t h a t main t r a i l
coming t hr ough o r what ever , and t h i s is t h e c o a s t l i n e h e r e .
Q ' You' re i d e n t i f y i n g t h e t r a i l as Rout e 521?
A. Ri ght .
Q. And t h e wa t e r at t h e t o p of t h e p i c t u r e a s t h e
c o a s t l i n e ?
A. (Nods i n t h e a f f i r ma t i v e ) O r it c oul d be t h e r i v e r
t h e r e .
A. I d o n ' t know anyone t h e r e .
Q . I n t h e eveni ng you company j oi ne d wi t h C Company.
Did you go over t o C Company' s a r e a ?
(DUFF) 18
APP T-268
A. I don' t t hi nk I went over t he r e . I t a l ke d t o
them. They passed by us and come t hrough what we s e t up
t he r e , more o r less a per i met er . They come t hrough us , and
t hey passed r i g h t by me . I knew q u i t e a few guys i n C Com-
PanY *
Q
Did you hear any r e por t s of t h e body count f o r
t he day?
A. No.
Q Did you he a r any r e por t on what t h e 1st Pl at oon was
doi ng acr os s t h e concr et e br i dge?
\
A. our 1st Pl at oon?
Q. Your 1st Pl at oon.
A. Ei t h e r t h e f i r s t t i me o r t he second t i m e we went
i n , Lar r y, he w a s an E-4 a t t he t i m e but he made ser geant - -
bef or e he went i n o r r i g h t a f t e r anyway t hey had a pr i s one r
t h e r e , I be l i e ve . There wa s a mine r i g h t acr os s t h e br i dge.
Anyway, he g o t h i s f o o t blowed o f f , and t hey pul l e d him out .
But j u s t bef or e t h a t , I be l i e ve , he made s er geant . H e w a s an
E-4 squad l e a de r bef or e.
Q On t h e 16t h, d i d you he a r any r i f l e f i r e o r any
mor t ar f i r e o r machinegun f i r e coming from t h e d i r e c t i o n of t h e
1st Pl at oon' s oper at i on?
A. I d o n ' t know. I t ' s har d t o d i s t i n g u i s h days between
t he 16th, 17t h, and 18t h. There was pr obabl y gunf i r e , pr obabl y.
Q- Was t he r e any di s cus s i on i n t h e company a r e a t h a t
n i g h t r egar di ng t he body count r epor t ed by t h e 1st Pl at oon?
A. No .
Q D i d anyt hi ng unusual happen t he eveni ng of t h e 16th?
(Wi t ness shakes head i n t he negat i ve. )
Now, would you des cr i be your a c t i ons on t h e 17t h,
t he f ol l owi ng day, t h e 17t h, i n t h e f i e l d ?
, (DUFF) APP T-268
A. The 3d Pl at oon went on the bigp a r t , more o r l e s s ,
on t he peni ns ul a t h e r e , because I know a f t e r we got down s o
f a r t he r e was n' t much down t h a t way. Af t e r we got down t h e r e ,
we ki nd of s l i ppe d up, you know, about --I t h i n k ' itwas one of
t he squads moved on f a r t h e r ahead, and t hen come back andmet
wi t h t h e r e s t of us , and we t ur ned and went back.
Q = A l l r i g h t . Did you move out of your n i g h t l a a ge r
pos i t i on back t o Route 521 and over t o t h e br i dge l eadi ng t o
t h e s p i t of l and on t h e 17t h? .
A. Y e s , I t hi nk s o , because I be l i e ve t h a t ' s where t h e
2d Pl at oon come t hr ough t h e v i l l a g e where t he 1stPl at oon had
been.
Q Did you he a r t h e expl os i on, t h e mine expl os i on a t
t h e br i dge?
A. When?
Q When TAYLORl o s t h i s f oot . rn
A. Y e s , pr obabl y. I t hi nk s o.
Q
Where were you when t h a t occur r ed? Did you see him?
A. No, I d i d n ' t s e e him.
Q = Did you s e e him bei ng evacuat ed? D i d you see a
medevac chopper come i n ?
A. Y e s , I guess t h a t ' s what come i n .
9. Do you r e c a l l any gunshi ps i n t h a t area t h a t morning
r i g h t a f t e r t h i s happened?
A. I don' t know. I g e t t h e ope r a t i ons ki nd of mixed
up because I know one gunshi p came i n . The 2d Pl at oon came
acr os s t he br i dge , some gunshi ps came i n and h i t t he v i l l a g e
on t h e o t h e r s i d e t h e r e , and t h e 3d Pl at oon mv e d up t o he l p
s uppor t t h e 2d u n t i l t hey cr os s ed t h e br i dge a f t e r t h e gunshi ps
come i n . That was--TVd say t h a t was t h e same day.
Q . The or de r of march t o t h e br i dge , w a s itt h e 3d Pl a-
t oon behi nd t h e 2 d Pl at oon? What w a s t h e or de r of march?
( DUFF) 20 APP T-268;
A. Y e s , t h e 2d Pl at oon w a s f i r s t . Af t e r t h i s , t hey
c oul dn' t cr os s t h e br i dge, and we had t o move up and s uppor t
t he 2d t o g e t acr os s t h e br i dge.
Q = How d i d you s uppor t them?
A. W e l l , see, t h e gunshi ps were al r eady f i r i n g i n .
So w e more o r less j u s t pul l e d up al ong t h i s s i d e of t h e
r i v e r , and we l ayed down f i r e f o r t h e 2d u n t i l t hey got acr os s .
Q Did you depl oy of f t h e road al ong t h e bank?
A. Y e s , because t h e r e was one l i t t l e hoot ch t h a t had
a man t h a t w a s wounded i n it where we st opped. I know t h e r e
wa s me and t h e pl at oon l e a de r , and t h e RTO had st opped by.
And he wa s i n t he r e , what ever t hey got t h e r e , what ever you
want t o c a l l it.
Q - Was t h i s on t h e w e s t s i d e o r was it on t h e e a s t
side of the stream?
A. I t would be on t he w e s t s i de .
Q Do you know what happened t o t h e man t h a t was
wounded?
A. I know t h e medic pat ched him up. I don' t t hi nk
t hey br ought a chopper i n f o r him.
Q- What w a s t h e 1st Pl at oon doi ng whi l e you w e r e
s uppor t i ng t h e 2d Pl at oon cr os s i ng t h e br i dge?
A. I d o n ' t remember because we were s epar at ed t h a t
ni ght , I gues s , because t he 1st Pl at oon s t ayed on t h e ot her
s i de of t h e r i v e r .
Q - You ment i oned gunshi ps, I be l i e ve . Were t hey
f i r i n g i n t o the v i l l a g e , making a pas s and f i r i n g i n t o t h e
v i l l a g e acr os s t h e br i dge?
A. Y e s .
Q. Once t he company cr os s ed t h e br i dge , d i d t hey
sweep t h i s v i l l a g e and c l e a r i t ?
( DUFF) 21 APP T-268
A. The 2d Pl at oon swept t h a t v i l l a g e , and t h a t ' s when
we s epar at ed. You s e e , w e went over , t he 2d Pl at oon set up a
l a a ge r f o r us i n s uppor t of us, and we went a c r os s , and, you s ee,
t he weapons pl at oon- - t he mor t ar pl at oon, t hey s t ayed wi t h t h e
2d Pl at oon because t h e 2d Pl at oon was s h o r t because t hey had
a l l t h a t wounded. So t h e weapons pl at oon and t h e CO s t ayed
wi t h t h e 2d Pl at oon, and t hey sear ched t h i s v i l l a g e .
Q- You s ay t he weapons pl at oon, t h e 2d Pl at oon, and
t h e CO. You' re t a l k i n g about Capt ai n MICHLES?
A. Ri ght .
Q. They s t ayed and s ear ched t he v i l l a g e , i s t h a t
r i g h t ?
A. That ' s r i g h t .
Q And what d i d your pl at oon do?
A. W e went on down t h e peni ns ul a t h e r e o r what ever
it i s, what ever you want t o c a l l it, t h e wide s t r i p of l and.
Q Do you know what t h e f or mat i on was goi ng s out h,
whet her anyone wa s on t he r i g h t o r l e f t of t h e pl at oon?
A. No.
?
Did you go down on t h e beach s i de ?
A. I d o n ' t remember. I don ' t t hi nk s o. We d i d n ' t go
a l l t h e way down t he coas t . We got down so f a r and t h e r e
was n' t anyt hi ng on t h a t s i d e t h a t amounted t o anyt hi ng, s o we
t ur ned around and pushed back up.
Q = What, t i m e frame are you t a l k i n g about now? How
much t i m e d i d you spend goi ng sout h?
A. I t wa s about a l l day. I mean t o g e t back.
Q- D i d you see t he 1st Pl at oon any t i m e dur i ng t h e day?
A. I be l i e ve t h i s i s t he t i me we l aager ed up i n t h a t
area where t h e 1st Pl at oon l aager ed a t bef or e. I t hi nk t h a t ' s
t he ni ght we g o t mor t ar ed t he r e .
( DUFF) 22 APP T-268
Q Your days a r e a l i t t l e b i t o f f . L e t me ask you
a coupl e of o t h e r t hi ngs . Do you r e c a l l engagi ng two VC
s out h of t h e br i dge on t h a t s p i t of l and?
A. The onl y t hi ng I can remember i s t h e r e wa s a boa t ,
or a sampan, o r somet hi ng. Tha t ' s t h e onl y t hi ng I can r e me m-
ber . W e had come up i n t h e r e by a sampan.
Q Were t hey engaged?
A. I don' t remember.
Q Do you r e c a l l des t r oyi ng any mines as you moved
sout h?
(Wi t ness shakes head i n t h e negat i ve. )
Do you r e c a l l any smoke t h a t day as you went sout h?
A. Do you mean whi l e we w e r e down on t h a t l ower end
down t her e?
Q. Y e s .
Burni ng of t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. No.
Q
Do you r e c a l l any r i f l e f i r e o r demol i t i ons t o t h e
r i g h t of your pl at oon?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l any because it a l l seemed s o peace-
f u l down t h e r e t o me compared--
Q . ( I nt er pos i ng) Did you see any peopl e t h e r e t h a t
day?
A. J u s t t he ones i n t he sampan t h e r e i s t h e onl y ones
I seen.
Q - Did you g e t a chance t o t a l k t o members of t h e 2d
Pl at oon t h a t swept t he v i l l a g e ?
(DUFF) 23
APP T-268
A. No.
Q J u s t acr os s from t he br i dge?
A. If--I d i d n ' t t a l k t o them, but i f t h a t ' s what I
r e c a l l , t hey t ook some pr i s one r s i n t he r e . When we got back
t o t he l a a ge r pos i t i on, t hey f l ew i n an i n t e r p r e t e r . I t
seems l i k e t he r e was a Thai t h a t came t h e r e , a Thai f o r t h e
i n t e r p r e t e r .
Q D i d t h e mor t ar pl at oon f i r e any mi ssi ons t h a t day?
A. No.
Q - Did you s e e any Navy s wi f t boat s ?
A. No. W e was over t he r e a coupl e of t i mes . I don' t
know i f I ' v e got t h e oper at i ons mixed up o r what .
Q - What about a f t e r t h i s ope r a t i on, d i d you s e e any
members of t he 2d Pl at oon t h a t went i n t he v i l l a g e andaswept i t ?
A. I t hi nk a f t e r t h i s v i l l a g e was where t hey qepar at ed
our company. They s e n t t h e 3d Pl at oon up t o Upt i ght , and t hey
t ook t h e rest of t he company t o Dot t i e. The 3d Pl at oon, i f
t h i s i s t h e oper at i on I remember, t he 3d Pl at oon w a s t h e onl y
one t h a t was l e f t wi t h f u l l s t r e ngt h. 1st and 2d Pl at oons
were down about 1 3 o r 1 4 men api ece, somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q How w a s your pl at oon or gani zed on t h i s oper at i on?
Did you have t h r e e squads?
A. Ri ght .
Q What about t h e o t h e r two pl at oons ? Do you r e c a l l
how t hey were or gani zed?
They were pr obabl y t he same.
(LTC NOLL or i e nt e d t h e wi t nes s on Exhi bi t P-168.)
Q. Can you des cr i be t h e a c t i v i t i e s of t h e 18t h a s you
remember them? That i s your t h l r d day i n t h e f i e i d. T h i s i s
t h e d a t e t h a t you pr obabl y moved a l o t of peopl e.
(DUFF) 2 4 APP T-268
A. The onl y t h i n g I remember, i f t h i s i s t h e day w e
got mort ared--I d o n ' t know. The 1st Pl at oon had a l o t of
c a s u a l t i e s t h a t n i g h t . The i r machinegunner was k i l l e d , I
know f o r a f a c t , and t h i s would have been a t n i g h t . I d o n ' t
know how many rounds of mor t ar w e g o t o r anyt hi ng. I know
we g o t q u i t e a few i n j u r e d , and w e c a l l e d i n , I t h i n k , i t was
a pl a ne i n s uppor t of us t h a t l a i d machinegun f i r e around
t h e o u t e r pe r i me t e r .
Q Okay, what d i d you do dur i ng t h e d a y l i g h t hour s
be f or e eveni ng? Do you r e c a l l ?
A. (Shaki ng head i n t h e ne ga t i ve ) I know a t t h e
t i m e , t h a t n i g h t , I know a s e r ge a nt w a s i n char ge. Because
I know Li e ut e na nt CARTER. I t hi nk he went t o t h e 2d Pl at oon
e i t h e r t h e day be f or e o r s o because Ser geant MCCLOUD wa s i n
char ge of us t h a t n i g h t .
Q Li e ut e na nt CARTER d i d n o t come t o t h e f i e l d wi t h
you on t h i s ope r a t i on. H e went i n t o t h e h o s p i t a l 2 days be f or e
from h u r t i n g h i s back. H e came back and went t o t h e 2d Pl a t oon
t he n because t he y l e f t Se r ge a nt MCCLOUD i n char ge. Do you
recal l s e a r c hi ng t h a t upper pe ni ns ul a and r oundi ng up a l o t
of peopl e?
A. Thi s must have been t h e f o u r t h day. I d o n ' t
know i f t h e r e was 4 days t h e r e o r not . I know one day we
went up and s e a r c he d t h e pe ni ns ul a o u t t h e r e . Li e ut e na nt
LEWIS was t h e r e when we g o t back, b u t t h a t must have been
t h e second t i m e we w e r e i n t h e r e .
Q. You moved n o r t h , we b e l i e v e , t h e t h i r d day you
w e r e i n t h e f i e l d . You assembl ed most of t h e i n h a b i t a n t s i n
t h e upper p a r t o f t h a t s t r i p of l a nd f o r a J!IEDCAP. I t was
t h a t eveni ng you g o t mor t ar ed.
A. Y e s , I remember t h a t eveni ng.
Q . Was t h e r e any s ma l l arms f i r e t h a t accompanied t h e
mor t ar a t t a c k ?
A. That ni ght ?
Q yes .
( DUFF) APP T-268
A. Y e s , I know t h e machinegun had f i r e d q u i t e a num-
b e r of t i m e s be f or e we g o t t h e mor t ar a t t a c k , and we had f i r e d
back. W e had f i r e d t h e machinegun.
9 - Do you r e c a l l any de t a i ne e s i n t h e p o s i t i o n ?
That n i g h t ?
Q 0 That n i g h t .
A. It was ear l i er , b u t t hey must have a l r e a dy t ook
them o u t o r somet hi ng because t hey we r e n ' t h e l d ove r ni ght t h a t
I can remember.
Q Do you r e c a l l them be i ng i n t e r r o g a t e d ?
A. Y e s .
Q - Did you see them bei ng i n t e r r o g a t e d ? .
A. No.
Q - Did you h e a r any r e p o r t s of t h e i n t e r r o g a t i o n ?
A. No.
Q How t he y a r e t r e a t e d ?
( Wi t ness shakes head i n t h e ne ga t i ve . )
A t any t i m e dur i ng t h i s o p e r a t i o n , d i d you see any
mi s t r eat ment of d e t a i n e e s by U . S . , ARVN, o r Na t i ona l Pol i c e ?
A. W e l l , when t hey i n t e r r o g a t e them, t h e ARVN' s o r
whoever it is--I d o n ' t know i f t he y would be mi s t r e a t i n g them
o r not . I d o n ' t know how t hey would have t o do it t o g e t
que s t i ons and answer s, b u t t he y do ki nd of smack t h e p r i s o n e r s
around a l i t t l e b i t . As f a r a s U. S . t r oops , I d o n ' t remember
any.
LTC NOLL: The he a r i ng w i l l be r eces s ed. 1
(The he a r i ng r e c e s s e d a t 1057 hour s , 29 Januar y 1970.)
(The he a r i ng reconvened a t 1122 hour s , 29 Januar y 1970.)
(DUFF) 26
APP T-268
6
RCDR : The f ol l owi ng per sons a r e pr es ent : COL WILSON,
COL WILSON: M r . DUFF, d i d you normal l y work i n c l os e conj unct i on
wi t h t h e r a di os as forward obs er ver ?
A. Ri ght .
Q Do you have your own r a di o o r do you use one of
t h e pl at oon ' s ?
W e used t h e l i e ut e na nt pl at oon l e a d e r ' s r adi o.
Q How many PRC-25 I s were i n t h a t pl at oon, do you know?
A. Two.
'Q. You s a i d t h e 3d Pl at oon l a i d down a bas e of f i r e
on t he second day dur i ng t h e 2d Pl at oon cr os s i ng. Was t h i s
done from t h e w e s t s i d e of t h e r i v e r ?
A. Ri ght .
Q And what t ype of f i r e was i t ?
A. Wel l , t h e squads w e r e s pr ead out al ong t h e bank
a r e a , and I t hi nk t hey f i r e d a few rounds of machinegun. But
I t hi nk m o s t of it w a s M-16.
Q. Were a l l squads on l i n e , o r j u s t one or two squads?
A. I t hi nk pr obabl y a l l of them w e r e on l i n e . I ' m
not s ur e.
Q There must have been some f i r e c ont r ol t he r e t o
keep from h i t t i n g t h e 2d Pl at oon t h a t wa s acr os s t h e br i dge.
A. Wel l , I w a s back wi t h my pl at oon l e a de r , and t hey
was behi nd us . I t would be Ser geant MCCLOUD. W e w e r e back--
t h e r e was a wounded man on t h i s s i d e of t h e r i v e r t h e r e , t h e
br i dge, and t h e medic t h a t w a s a t t e ndi ng him, he was back
t he r e .
(DUFF)
APP T-268
Q Who w a s t h e wounded man, a Vietnamese man?
A. Ri ght .
Q Was he evacuat ed?
A. No, I don' t t hi nk s o.
Q Wel l , d i d you he a r any communication concer ni ng f i r i ng?
A. No.
LTC NOLL: What was t h i s f i r e supposed t o suppr ess? Why was
it neces s ar y, do you know?
A. We were t r y i n g t o d i s t r a c t , I guess, t he enemy f o r
t h e 2d Pl at oon. Because t hey were goi ng o f f t h e br i dge t h e r e ,
and w e were j u s t t r y i n g t o g e t a base of f i r e down s o t hey
coul d g e t acr os s .
COL WILSON: Was t h e r e any f i r e coming from t h a t v i l l a g e ?
A. Y e s . The 2d Pl at oon c oul dn' t c r os s because of t h e
s mal l arms f i r e .
4
Q
What about t he r equi r ement t o put some mor t ar f i r e
on t h e vi l l a ge ?
A. Wel l , as I r e c a l l , gunshi ps w e r e c a l l e d i n on
t he vi l l a ge .
Q How many s hi ps ?
A. I t hi nk t h e r e was two o r t hree--t wo I t hi nk.
Q - How many pas s es d i d t hey make?
A. I d o n ' t have any i dea.
Q
And was t h i s f i r i n g by t he pl at oon done bef or e o r
a f t e r t h e gunshi ps had made t h e r e pas s es ?
A. Be f or e .
(DUFF) 28
APP T-268
Q W e l l , i f it was bef or e t hen, t h e 2d Pl at oon cr os s ed
whi l e t h e gunshi ps w e r e making t h e i r pas s es . I mean t h e 2d
Pl at oon cr os s ed whi l e t h e gunshi ps were making t h e i r pas s es ?
A. I d o n ' t know i f i t was bef or e o r a f t e r , b u t on t h e
ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge t he r e was a l i t t l e g u l l y , and t h e 2d
Pl at oon was over i n t h e r e when we cr os s ed. I ' m not s ur e whet her
t hey went a c r os s bef or e t h e gunshi ps came i n o r r i g h t a f t e r
t hey were t he r e . W e d i d n ' t move acr os s u n t i l t hey had al r eady
l e f t .
Q The gunshi ps?
A. Ri ght .
Q. Thi s phot ograph P-18, when d i d you t hi nk t h i s was
t aken?
A. I t hought it was on t h e second day because we
come up on a v i l l a g e t h a t q u i t e a few peopl e w a s i n it. There
wa s q u i t e a number of men i n i t , and we ki nd of s epar at ed t h e
men and women. The weapons pl at oon was hol di ng them i n , and
t he 3d Pl at oon rounded them up, I guess, and we w e r e s ear chi ng
t he v i l l a g e .
Q Thi s wa s on ' t h e second day?
A. Tha t ' s t h e b e s t I r e c a l l , si r .
LTC NOLL: A s I under st ood it, one of t h e r eason why you
s a i d t h e second day i s because on t h e f i r s t day you d i d n ' t
f i nd any men, i s t h a t r i g h t ?
A. The 3d Pl at oon di dn' t , I know. I ' m p r e t t y s ur e
t hey d i d n ' t .
Q Where do you t hi nk t h i s was? Thi s would have been
on t h e o t h e r s i d e o r t h e east s i d e of t he r i v e r . Where do you
t hi nk it was?
A. I don ' t' know exact l y.
Q What about P-20? Do you remember t h a t phot ograph?
Do you remember where t h a t was?
(DUFF) 29 APP T-268
A. I don' t remember where i t ' s a t . Tha t ' s t h e weapons
pl at oon t h e r e .
Q a DO you remember t he s e two?
A. I t hi nk t h i s one i s QUINTANILLA from t h e 2d Pl at oon.
Q - That i s t h e man wi t hout t h e hel met on?
A. Ri ght .
Q What about t he s e two i n P-21?
A. I don ' t know.
Q a
D&d you e ve r he a r a t r ans mi s s i on over t h e r a di o
t o s t o p k i l l i n g t h e c i v i l i a n s , t h a t pr obabl y had come over on
t h e 16t h of March?
,
A. No.
Q -
D i d you e ve r he a r of a body count f i g u r e gi ven?
Any ques t i ons on a body count ?
NQ.
Q -
Did you e ve r he a r an or de r about s t o p bur ni ng
hoot ches?
Did you e ve r hear Capt ai n MICHLES gi vi ng an or de r
t he f i r s t day t o s t o p f i r i n g t h e mor t ar ?
A. No, I don' t remember t h e mor t ar bei ng f i r e d . The
onl y t hi ng I remember, t hey were s e t t i n g t h e mor t ar up when t he
2d Pl at oon h i t t hos e mi nes. I don' t remember them e ve r f i r i n g .
Q - Were you back t h e r e wi t h i t ?
A. No, we wa s - - I s een them s e t t i n g up. .You see,
we were over t o t h e l e f t .
( DUFF ) 30
APP T-268
Q They coul d have f i r e d wi t hout your knowledge?
A. W e l l , we we r e n' t t h a t f a r away. I guess t he y coul d
have, b u t I j u s t don ' t remember it.
Q Se r ge a nt VANN s a i d t he y f i r e d . The FO of t h e 1st
Pl at oon s a i d t he y f i r e d .
A. I di dn ' t h e a r i t mysel f . Se r ge a nt VANN ought t o know.
Q Did you ask him about t h e count er mor t ar f i r e up
i n t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. No, si r , I d i d not .
COL WILSON: Do you know i f t h e r e w a s count er mor t ar f i r e on t h e
n i g h t of t h e 1 8 t h a f t e r you r e c e i ve d t h e i ncomi ng rounds? Did
our 81' s f i r e back?
A. I t h i n k t he y mi ght have f i r e d a coupl e of rounds
be f or e t h e s h i p g o t i n t h e r e , t h a t a i r p l a n e . I know t hey s t a r t e d I
t o cal l i n a r t i l l e r y , b u t t hey woul dn' t gi ve us a r t i l l e r y f i r e .
Q They wouldn ' t ?
I guess because of t h e a i r p l a n e .
Q - Do you r e c a l l t h e a r t i l l e r y marker rounds be i ng
f i r e d t h a t a f t e r noon be f or e dar k?
A. Ther e w e r e u s u a l l y marker rounds i n t h e a f t e r noon.
Q Did you see a woman wi t h a l e g s h o t up, a Vi et namese
woman be i ng br ought o u t ? Did you see he r ?
A. No.
Q Did you see when t he y evacuat ed he r ? Did you h e a r
about he r ? The que s t i on i s whet her o r n o t s he was h i t by t h e
ar t i l l er y mar ker s?
A. The onl y one I remember t h a t day was when t h e 1st
. Pl a t oon pi cked someone up i n t h a t f i r s t v i l l a g e , and t h a t was
on t h e f i r s t day.
(DUFF) APP T-268
HOW do you know what t h e 1st Pl at oon had t h e f i r s t day?
A. They s a i d t hey had a woman pr i s oner . That ' s what I
hear d.
Q You hear d t h i s . Did you s e e her ?
A. No.
Q 0 What d i d you he a r about her ?
A. I d o n ' t know. I guess i t came over t h e r a di o. I
don ' t know.
Q 0 Thi s was a r a di o t r ans mi s s i on?
A. I ' m not goi ng t o s ay it was. I ' m not s ur e . I know
t hey had a women t he r e . Where we got t he i nf or mat i on from--
& 0 ( I nt er pos i ng) Was t h a t woman wi t h him t h e next morning
when you cr os s ed?
Q
Did you e ve r see any U . S . o r ARVN s o l d i e r s t o r t u r i n g (
det ai nees o r PW' s on t h i s oper at i on?
A. I d i d n ' t s e e any.
Q a Did you he a r anyt hi ng about i t ?
A. Wel l , I hear d t h a t n i g h t t h a t t h e ARVN' s or whoever
came i n t h e r e t o ques t i on w e r e s l appi ng t h e pr i s one r s around.
Q 9 What ni ght w a s t h a t ?
A. I t must have been t h e ni ght w e were a l l l aager ed t o-
ge t he r t h e r e , when t h e 1st Pl at oon got mor t ar ed t he r e . W e l l , we
a l l got mor t ar ed. The 1st Pl at oon got a l l t h e wounded.
Q That was up t h e r e nor t h of t he v i l l a g e ?
(Wi t ness nods i n t h e a f f i r ma t i ve , )
You hear d' t he r e were some ARVN wi t h you t h a t ni ght ?
( DUFF) APP T- 268
4
A.
They f l ew them i n , b u t I t hi nk t he y t ook them back
out . I d o n ' t know i f t he y s t a ye d t h e r e ove r ni ght o r n o t .
Q Did you see any i n t e r r o g a t i o n s goi ng on?
A. No.
Q
Did you h e a r anyt hi ng e l s e about t o r t u r i n g ?
A. No.
Q *
Were you o r anyone you know que s t i one d on t h i s op-
e r a t i o n a s t o what happened?
A. No, I was never que s t i one d, and I d o n ' t know o f
anyone else.
Q Did you t a k e a camera wi t h you?
A. No, n o t on t h a t ope r a t i on.
Q 9 Do you know anybody t h a t di d?
A. I don ' t know unl e s s Rober t GELDMEYER. H e ' s from
Wi sconsi n. H e u s u a l l y had a l i t t l e 104 t h a t he c a r r i e d wi t h
him all t h e t i m e .
Q
Did you see a phot ogr apher on t h a t o p e r a t i o n , MACV?
A. W e l l , t h e way I under s t and i t , I he a r d t he y was wi t h
t h e 2d pl a t oon b u t d i d n ' t s t a y b u t a s h o r t t i m e . I d o n ' t know.
Q - What el se d i d you h e a r about him? Did you h e a r any-
t h i n g e l s e about him?
A. No.
Q Did you see him?
A. No, I d o n ' t t h i n k s o .
LTC NOLL: What day was t h i s ?
A. I t h i n k t h i s was t h e second day.
(DUFF) APP T-268
COL WILSON: Do you have any phot ogr aphs t h a t w e r e t a ke n dur i ng
J
t h i s pe r i od?
A. No.
Q
Any document s t h a t mi ght h e l p f i x t i m e s , and d a t e s ,
and pl a c e s ?
A. No,
a l l t h e p i c t u r e s I had i n Vietnam t he y ke pt over
t h e r e . I g o t h i t , and I never g o t my p i c t u r e s back. I d i d n ' t have
any of t h i s a r e a anyway.
Q
They are pr obabl y de c or a t i ng somebody' s bunker .
A. Pr obabl y.
Q 0
Did you e v e r h e a r any rumors about some c i v i l i a n s
be i ng k i l l e d unne c e s s a r i l y by B Company o r C Company on t h i s
ope r a t i on u n t i l t h i s br oke?
A. No, n o t u n t i l t h i s br oke.
Q
Do you know i f any mar i j uana was used by B Company?
A. I ne ve r t h i n k I s een any mar i j uana. I don t know. I 4
d o n ' t know how t hey would r e a c t .
Q .
Do you have any f u r t h e r t es t i mony o r s t a t e me nt s t h a t
1
n i g h t a s s i s t us?
A. I d o n ' t know of any.
Q No more?
A. No.
Q
Do you r e c a l l be i ng v i s i t e d by Col onel BARKER on t h i s
ope r a t i on?
A.
I t h i n k he come o u t t h e f i r st n i g h t wi t h c Company when
w e l a a ge r e d t o g e t h e r .
Q - Did you s e e him?
A. I ' m p r e t t y s u r e he was o u t t h e r e .
(DUFF) 34
APP T-268
4
Q- Do you know o f any di s c us s i on t h a t t ook pl a c e be-
tween Col onel BARKER and Capt ai n MI CHLES?
A. No.
COL WI LSON: Mr . DUFF, I r e que s t t h a t you n o t d i s c u s s your t e s t i -
mony i n t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n wi t h o t h e r s i nc l udi ng o t h e r wi t ne s s e s
t h a t may be c a l l e d o r t h a t have been c a l l e d e xc e pt a s you may be
r e qui r e d t o do s o be f or e a l e g i s l a t i v e o r j u d i c i a l body i n which
case we have no hol ds on t h e t est i mony. W e would l i k e t o keep
t h i s on a c o n f i d e n t i a l b a s i s and n o t have you t a l k t o anybody
about it. Thank you ver y much f o r coming; we a p p r e c i a t e it.
The h e a r i n g w i l l be r e c e s s e d.
(The h e a r i n g r e c e s s e d a t 1140 hour s , 29 J anuar y 1970. )
(DUFF) APP T- 268
SUMMARY OF TESTINONY
WITNESS: ESTERLING, Ronald J.
DATE OF TESTIMONY : 29 January 1970
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: Machinegunner, ~ h i r d
Squad, Thi r d Pl at oon, B/4/3.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t when the u n i t came i n t o Duc
Pho t hey had c l a s s e s concer ni ng what t hey shoul d s hoot a t
i n t he f i e l d (pg. 2 ) . They were t o l d t h a t anyone who
evaded them shoul d be t ol d t o s t op and i f he d i d not , t hey
nad per mi ssi on t o s hoot a t him, i f he was a mi l i t ar y- age
male (pg. 2 ) . They were t o l d t o r e f r a i n from s hoot i ng a t
women and c hi l dr e n unl es s t hey were f i r i n g back (pg. 2).
He di d not remember havi ng a c l a s s on t he l e g a l i t y of or de r s
b u t s t a t e d he knew t hey d i d not have t o obey an i l l e g a l
or der (pg. 3 ) . The wi t ness di d not r e c a l l s eei ng e i t h e r
~ x h i b i t sM-2 o r M-3, but s t a t e d t h a t whi l e i n Hawaii he was
i ns t r uc t e d on t he "Nine Rul es" (pg. 3 ) .
The wi t nes s coul d not r e c a l l who had gi ven them a
b r i e f i n g , al t hough he s t a t e d t h a t us ual l y t h e company
commander passed t he word down t o t h e pl at oon l e a de r s and
squad l e a de r s , who would i nform t he men (pgs. 4 , 5) . H e
s a i d t h a t sometimes t he r e was a company f or mat i on i n which
t h e company commander would gi ve the whole u n i t t he
i nf or mat i on (pg. 5 ) . The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d that t h i s was t h e i r
f i r s t s ear ch and des t r oy mi ssi on because t hey were e nt e r i ng
(ESTERLING) 1 SUM APP T-270
a " t i g h t community" of V i e t Cong sympat hi zer s (pg. 6 ) . H e
bel i eved he was t o l d t h i s by t he pl at oon l eader on t h e
morning of 16 March (pg. 6 ) . He di s t i ngui s he d t h i s from a
s ear ch and c l e a r mi ssi on i n t h a t t hey were t o des t r oy
anyt hi ng t h a t would be of a s s i s t a nc e t o t he V i e t Cong
(pg. 6 ) . H e di d not r e c a l l any or de r s bei ng gi ven concerni ng
t h e de s t r uc t i on of hoot ches o r concerni ng ani mal s and food-
s t ocks (pg. 7 ) . H e s t a t e d t hey were t o l d t o ga t he r up t h e
c i v i l i a n s and have them watched whi l e t hey sear ched t he
v i l l a g e s (pg. 7 ) . Usual l y, t hey would l eave t h e v i l l a g e r s
where t hey found them and not move them o u t i n t o a s e pa r a t e
group (pg. 7 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t t hey were t o l d t h e r e was a
ba t t a l i on- s i z e f or c e of Vi et Cong i n t h e a r e a where t hey we r e
goi ng (pg. 8 ) . H e Sal d t h a t t he men i n t h e u n i t would be
more a f r a i d goi ng i n t o t he Pi nkvi l l e a r e a because of t he
number of mines l ocat ed t h e r e (pg. 8) . He d i d not t hi nk
t h a t t h e company was " a l l psyched up" f o r t h e oper at i on
but s t a t e d t h a t t hey were nervous (pg. 5 0 ) . The wi t nes s
mentioned t h a t t hey had pr evi ous oper at i ons i n t h e Pi nkvi l l e
a r e a al t hough he was not s ur e of t h e da t e s (pgs. 9 , 1 0 ) .
3 . COMBAT ASSAULT.
Ac t i v i t i e s on 1 6 March.
(1) The l andi ng and i n i t i a l a c t i v i t y .
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d t h a t approxi mat el y ni ne
s l i c k s came i n t o pi ck them up a t LZ Upt i ght (pg. 5 ) . H e was
not s u r e i f he was on t he r l r s t or second l i f t (pg. 17) . The
wi t nes s d i d not r e c a l l bei ng f i r e d a t when t hey l anded ( pg. 11) .
When t hey g o t of f t h e he l i c opt e r s t hey s e t up s e c u r i t y
and Li eut enant COCHRAN st epped on a mine (pg. 11). The
wi t nes s s t a t e d t hey wai t ed f o r t he dus t of f t o come i n
(pg. 11). He s t a t e d he was approxi mat el y 50 met er s w e s t of
COCHRAN when ithappened and he t hought t h a t bot h COCHRAN
and t he second group were dust edof f by a medevac s h i p
( pgs. 13, 1 4 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t s hor t l y a f t e r l andi ng t h e
u n i t had t o t ake cover because t hey t hought t h a t t hey w e r e
r ecei vi ng f i r e ( pg. 11) . Fi f t e e n mi nut es l a t e r , t hey found
o u t t h a t itwas f i r e coming from c h a r l i e Company ( pgs. l l , l 2 ) .
They were t o l d not t o r e t u r n t he f i r e (pg. 1 2 ) .
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
( 2) Movement i n t o t he v i l l a g e .
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t p a r t of t h e i r pla,toon
moved nor t h whi l e t he remai nder hel d r e a r s e c u r i t y (pg. 12)' .
The two groups t hen j oi ned and t he whole pl at oon went and
sear ched t he v i l l a g e d i r e c t l y west of them (pg. 12) . He
s t a t e d t h a t t hey sear ched bot h v i l l a g e s and t h a t it t ook
most of t he morning (pg. 1 3 ) . He di d not r e c a l l i f gunshi ps
were f i r i n g i n s uppor t of them t h a t day .(pg. 15) . H e d i d
hear some s hoot i ng coming from t h e f i r s t pl a t oon' s a r e a
(pg. 1 4 ) . When t he u n i t l e f t t h e l andi ng zone t o s ear ch
t he v i l l a g e on l i n e (pg. 1 5 ) , t hes econd pl at oon was l ocat ed
t o t h e i r r i g h t (pg. 1 7 ) . Af t er s ear chi ng t h e v i l l a g e , he
r e c a l l e d t h a t t hey went back and s e t up s e c ur i t y t o e a t
l unch (pg. 1 7 ) . He s t a t e d t h a t a number of t h e houses
were e i t h e r bur nt down o r blown up, he t hought by a i r
s t r i k e s o r a r t i l l e r y (pq. 1 7 ) . They found approxi mat el y
s i x mi l i t ar y- age men t h a t t hey kept wi t h them a l l ni ght i n
t h e i r l aager pos i t i on ( pq. 1 8 ) . He coul d not r e c a l l what
was done wi t h t hes e s i x t he next day (pg. 18) . H e d i d not
r e c a l l bur ni ng any of t he v i l l a g e s t h a t day, because most
of t he hoot ches t hey found were i n r ui ns (pg. 37) .
( 3 ) The ni ght l aager pos i t i on.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t hey l aager ed i n t h e v i l l a g e
usi ng t h e hedgerows as t h e i r per i met er ( pg. 1 6 ) . The s i x
pr i s oner s were put i n t o a hoot ch and were guarded a l l ni ght
l ong (pg. 1 8 ) . He i d e n t i f i e d Exhi bi t P-18 as a phot ograph
of t he pr i s one r s bei ng guarded by HUFFMAN (pg. 18) . During
t he ni ght t h e mor t ar s f i r e d whi t e phosphorous and some
l i v e rounds but he di d not hear any smal l arms f i r e on t h e
per i met er (pg. 21) .
( 4 ) I nf or mat i on concerni ng t h e a c t i v i t i e s of t h e
f i r s t pl at oon and C/ 1/ 20.
~ u r i n g t h e eveni ng when t hey passed members of
C/1/20, t h e wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t one man who w a s r e s t i n g by
t ne road t o l d him t h a t t hey had s hot everybody i n t he
v i l l a g e t hey had sear ched (pg. 22) . H e was t o l d t h a t t h e
men r aped women and t hen s h o t them (pg. 22) . He d i d not
know t h e per son who t o l d him t h i s (pg. 22) . He a l s o hear d
rumors t h a t t ne f i r s t pl at oon had done somet hi ng s i mi l a r
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
(pg. 22) . I n t a l ki ng t o members of t h e f i r s t p l a t o o n , he
was i nformed t h a t t hey had k i l l e d approxi mat el y 30 peopl e
i n t he v i l l a g e which t hey went t hrough on 16 March ( pg. 23) .
H e s t a t e d t h a t most of t he peopl e were k i l l e d because t hey
r ef us ed t o s t o p (pg. 24) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he re-
c a l l e d hear i ng machinegun and M- 1 6 f i r e t h a t day and he
r e c a l l e d commenting t h a t " t h e y ' r e doi ng a l o t of shoot i ng
over t he r e " (pg. 33) . A t t h e t i me he d i d not know t h a t i t
was t he f i r s t pl at oon t h a t w a s l ocat ed i n t h e v i l l a g e
(pg. 3 4 ) . The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t when he l a t e r saw t he
a r e a he t hought itwas unusual t h a t t h e r e were no bodi es ,
but he f e l t t h a t t hey had been gat her ed up by t h e c i v i l i a n s
(pg. 35) . He di d not ques t i on anyone from t h e f i r s t
pl at oon on t h i s b u t r e c a l l e d di s cus s i ng i t wi t h a f r i e nd,
Lar r y HATCH (pg. 35) . He d i d not know s p e c i f i c a l l y i n which
v i l l a g e t he peopl e had been k i l l e d ( pg. 36) . He di d not
r e c a l l hear i ng anyt hi ng about t he f i r s t pl at oon us i ng
dynami t e (pg. 37) .
Ac t i v i t i e s on 17 March.
(1) I n i t i a l movements.
Tne wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he r e c a l l e d cr os s i ng
t h e br i dge i n t o t he a r e a t h a t the f i r s t pl at oor, w a s
oper at i ng i n (pg. 25) . H e r e c a l l e d TAYLOR bei ng wounded
a s he cr os s ed t he br i dge (pg. 25) . H e di d not r e c a l l who
cr os s ed the br i dge f i r s t , b u t s t a t e d t h a t pos s i bl y h i s
pl at oon di d (pg. 2 6 ) . They had not reached t he br i dge when
TAYLOR was wounded, b u t t hey coul d s e e t he smoke i n t he
a i r a f t e r t h e expl osi on (pg. 2 6 ) . They coul d a l s o hear
t h e M-60 machinegun f i r e on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge
(pg. 26) . He d i d not r e c a l l any gunshi ps i n t h e a r e a
(pg. 27) . He r e c a l l e d t h a t when t hey cr os s ed t he br i dge ,
t hey not i ced t h a t t he r e were many mines marked and he s t a t e d
t h a t t he br i dge was l a t e r blown up b u t he d i d not know by
whom (pgs. 27, 28) . They had t he equipment t o do itthem-
s e l ve s , because GUTHRIE c a r r i e d demol i t i on equipment
(pg. 28) . When t hey cr os s ed t he br i dge t h e pl at oon set
up s e c ur i t y next t o t h e br i dge t o the s out h (pg. 29). H e
r e c a l l e d t h a t Li eut enant LEWIS came i n t h a t af t er noon t o
t a ke over t he seeehd pl at oon ( pgs. 29, 30) .
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d a h e l i c o p t e r coming
i n b u t t hey coul d not s e e it from t h e i r area (pg. 3 0 ) .
He d i d not remember s eei ng a MACV phot ographer (pg. 3 0 ) . '
He s t a t e d t h a t t hey l ocat ed a dead woman and bur i ed her
c l os e t o t he s e a on ni gh ground (pg. 31) . Thi s w a s t h e
onl y body t h a t he saw (pg. 31) . H e s t a t e d t h a t he t hought
t he pl at oon l e f t t he rest of t he company and worked their
way down t h e peni ns ul a, and event ual l y s e t up a bl ocki ng
f or c e c l e a r acr os s t h e peni ns ul a (pg. 31) . They mai nt ai ned
t h i s pos i t i on t h a t ni ght and di d not j oi n t he rest of
t he company (pg. 32) . They d i d not do any s ear chi ng p r i o r
t o s e t t i n g up t h i s ambush pos i t i on (pg. 32) . H e di d not
r e c a l l any c ont a c t dur i ng t he ni ght (pg. 38) .
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18 March.
(1) Movement.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t hat he t hought t h a t
t he company moved over t o t he end of t h e peni nsul a t h a t
day (pg. 39) . He remembered f i n d i mr i c e one t i me b u t he
was not s ur e t h a t it was on t h i s oper at i on (pg. 39) . They
moved i n t o t h e v i l l a g e s up- t o t h e nor t h and rounded u p ,
a l a r ge number of peopl e, sendi ng them back t o t h e beach
(pg. 40) . H e s t a t e d t h a t h i s pl at oon br ought i n t h e l a s t
group of peopl e @g. 40) . H e d i d not know what was done
w i t h t he peopl e, b u t he t hought t h a t t hey were bei ng quest i oned
(pg. 40) . He di d not go down t o t he end of t he beach
where t ney were bei ng hel d (pg. 40) . He d i d not see any
he l i c opt e r s wi t h medi cal per sonnel coming i n b u t he di d
t hi nk t h a t t h e f i r s t pl at oon had a VC s us pect ( pgs. 4 1 , 42) .
( 2 ) Night l aager pos i t i on.
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t t hey l aager ed on t he
l each t h a t ni ght on t he nor t her n p a r t of t he per i met er
( pgs. 40, 4 1 ) . He r e c a l l e d s eei ng seven o r e i g h t ARVN
per sonnel i n t he chow l i n e , b u t di d not know when t hey had
a r r i ve d (pg. 42) . The f i r s t pl at oon s e t up on t he beach and
f aced t o t he nor t heas t (pg. 33) , and ha'd one machinegun- set
up poi nt i ng nor t h (pg. 43) . H i s pl at oon f aced t o t h e nor t h-
west and t he second pl at oon f aced west and c i r c l e d down
around t o t he beach (pg. 43) .. H e t hought t h a t t he r e w a s e i t h e r
SUMAPP T-270
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
one or two Vietnamese mal es det ai ned i n t he per i met er t h a t
ni ght ( pg. 4 4 ) . He di d not see a wounded woman bei ng
evacuat ed (pg. 4 4 ) . He r e c a l l e d bei ng mort ared dur i ng
t h e ni ght and s t a t e d t h a t MILUS was k i l l e d (pg. 53) . H e
saw a dus t of f come i n t h a t ni ght and pi ck up t h e wounded,
but he coul d not r e c a l l i f t hey were es cor t ed by gunshi ps
(pg. 5 4 ) . H e d i d r e c a l l t h a t t h e r e were gunshi ps which
f i r e d f o r q u i t e a whi l e (pg. 54) . When t hey w e r e mort ared
he d i d not r e c a l l any in-comlng smal l arms f i r e (pg. 54) .
He s t a t e d t h a t t h e mor t ar pos i t i on was approxi mat el y 50 t o
1 0 0 met er s away from t h e per i met er ( pg. 55) . The a r t i l l e r y
r et ur ned f i r e t h a t ni ght (pg. 55) . He s t a t e d t h a t he di d
s e e some gr ound- t o- ai r f i r e from t he nor t hwest (pg. 53) . .
d. Ac t i v i t i e s on 19 March.
A t approxi mat el y 0900 hour s i n t he morning, he
remembered a pl at oon goi ng of f t o t h e v i l l a g e and s ear chi ng
f o r somet hi ng (pgs. 4 7 , 48). He r e c a l l e d t h a t t he mor t ar
pos i t i on was a l s o found t he next day (pg. 55). During t h e
Q
day he not i ced t h a t a det ai nee was beat en and had t o go down
w
t o t he s ea t o wash out h i s s hor t s (pg. 4 6 ) . He coul d not
Tt
s e e the i ndi vi dua l s t h a t were doi ng t h i s because ithappened 1
f a r down t he beach (pg. 47) . He di d not s e e t he man bei ng
ki cked (pg. 48) . H e r e c a l l e d t h a t a f i e l d t el ephone
was used on t he per son (pg. 4 8 ) .
4. INQUIRIES CONCERNI NG THE ASSAULT.
The wi t nes s di d not r e p o r t anyt hi ng t o h i s o f f i c e r s
because he f e l t t h a t "not hi ng was bei ng hi d from them"
(pg. 49) . He s t a t e d t h a t MICHLES or anyone e l s e on t h e
beach coul d have seen t he man bei ng beat en i pgs. 39-50) .
He d i d not hear of anyone i n t h e company r e por t i ng t h i s t o
t he I G (pg. 50). He was not quest i oned by any o f f i c e r s
and di d not know t h a t t he r e was an i nve s t i ga t i on bei ng
conduct ed ( pg. 51).
The wi t nes s s t a t e d t h a t he never saw anyone i n t he
u n i t us i ng mar i j uana (pg. 52).
(ESTERLING) 6
SUM APP T-270
I
EXHI BI TS
EXHI BI T
NUMBER
M- 2
DESCRIPTION
MACV Card "Nine ~ u l e s "
NOTES
.-
Wit had not seen
bef or e b u t had
been i n s t r u c t e d on.
PAGES
3
P-18
Your Hands"
Mi scel l aneous phot o
-
I
W i t had not seen
bef or e.
-
Wit 1dent l Ll ea
HUFFMAN guar di ng
the prisoners.
3
18
-
P- 21
P-66
P-185
Aeri al phot o of t he Son
My c o a s t a l ar ea.
W l t r ememer ea see-
i ng t h e o l d man.
W i t recognized
CPT MICHLES.
Used t o o r l e n t t n e
wi t nes s .
20
21
31
7
SUM APP T-270
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 1417 hours, 29 January
1970.)
COL WILSON: The heari ng w i l l come t o or der .
RCDR: The fol l owi ng named persons a r e pr esent : COL WILSON,
MR WALSH, LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
The next wi t ness i s M r . Ronald J. ESTERLING.
(MR ESTERLING was c a l l e d as a wi t nes s , w a s sworn,
and he t e s t i f i e d a s fol l ows: )
Pl ease s t a t e your f u l l name, occupat i on and resi-
dence.
A. Ronald J. ESTERLING, f a br i c repairman a t Fi r es t one
T i r e and Rubber Company, addr ess, 1496 E t t l e Drive, Barbart on,
Ohio. I
I
COL WILSON: M r . ESTERLING, we gave you a document which i s
marked Exhi bi t M-81 which you read p r i o r t o convening t h e
board here. Do you have any quest i ons on t ha t ?
A. No, I don' t .
Q. I t s t a t e d t h a t t h i s is Team C and what we a r e l ooki ng
f or . Thi s team c ons i s t s of t hr e e peopl e, Li eut enant Colonel
NOLL, mysel f, and M r . WALSH, who i s a c i v i l i a n at t or ney di s i g-
nate$ by t h e Secr et ar y of t he Army t o a s s i s t General PEERS. He ' l l
probably be i n l a t e r t h i s aft ernoon. Major THOMAS i s our r ecor der .
And t h i s i nformat i on t h a t I passed out t o you e a r l i e r i ndi cat ed,
we' re goi ng t o use a chronol ogi cal sequence t o develop our
quest i oni ng. So coul d you gi ve me your dut y assignment i n B/ 4/ 3
on 16 March 1968?
A. On 16 March 1968, I wa s machinegunner f o r t he t h i r d
squad, 3d Pl at oon, B Company.
Q. Have you di scussed t h i s oper at i on wi t h anyone p r i o r
t o coming t o t h i s heari ng s i nc e you' ve been back from Vietnam?
A. Y e s , I ' v e di scussed it wi t h my family.
Q - But nobody t h a t was wi t h you on t he oper at i on?
(ESTERLING) APP T-270
.. . . .. .
.. . 'FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
A. No, t h e ope r a t i on, I ha ve n' t seen a t a l l .
Q Who w a s your squad l eader ?
A. Squad l eader was, I be l i e ve it was Ser geant JORDON a t
t h e t i m e .
Q
Now was he t h e machinegun squad l e a de r o r t h e r i f l e
squad l eader ?
A. W e l l , we had a machinegun at t ached t o each squad.
Ther e wasn' t any machinegun squad l eader . They w e r e at t ached
t o t h e squad, s o he was a squad l eader of t h e pl at oon.
0. You be l i e ve it w a s JORDON?
A. I be l i e ve so; I ' m not pos i t i ve ; I be l i e ve s o.
Q. Who wa s your pl at oon l eader ?
A. Our pl at oon l e a de r was n' t o u t t he r e . I t hi nk it was
Ser geant MCCLOUD who w a s t a ki ng t h e pl ace of t h e pl at oon l e a de r
on t h a t day.
Q. Do you r e c a l l havi ng r ecei ved any t r a i n i n g p r i o r t o
goi ng t o Vietnam or a f t e r a r r i v a l . t h e r e concer ni ng t h e l e g a l i t y
o f or de r s ?
A. I t was--we d i d have c l a s s e s on- - l et ' s see; t he fi rst
bas e we l anded on over t h e r e w a s next t o Duc Pho. I c a n ' t remem-
' ' . ber t h e name r i g h t of f hand. W e had c l a s s e s t h e r e concer ni ng what
we shoul d s hoot a t i n t h e f i e l d and what we s houl dn' t s hoot a t ,
what our or de r s would be concer ni ng t h a t .
Q. What d i d t hey say?
A. They s a i d t h a t anyone who w a s evadi ng us i n any way
when you hol l e r e d a t them t o s t op. I f t hey woul dn' t s t op, and
i f it l ooked l i k e a mi l i t ar y- aged male t h a t we had per mi ssi on
t o s hoot a t him and s t o p him. But t hey t o l d us t o r e f r a i n
from s hoot i ng any women o r c hi l dr e n o r anyt hi ng of t h i s na t ur e
unl es s t hey we r e s hoot i ng back a t us.
(ESTERLING) 2
APP T-270
i
Q. Real l y what my quest i on i s, were you ever told--did
anybody ever i n s t r u c t you t h a t t he r e a r e some or der s which
a r e l e ga l and some which a r e not l e ga l , and you di d not have
t o comply wi t h or der s which were not l egal ? Did you ever have
such a c l a s s ?
A. W e l l , such a c l a s s as t h a t cas e, I c a n ' t remember
having a c l a s s but I knew--I w a s f ami l i ar wi t h t h a t or der
myself.
Q Where di d you ge t t h i s i nformat i on?
A. W e l l , j u s t through a per i od of hi s t or y. I mean
where an i nc or r e c t or der was given t h a t I t hought wa s completely
unj us t and I woul dn' t ' fol l ow it out . I knew I had t he aut hor i t y
t o not fol l ow it out and t ake t he consequences i f I was r i g h t
or wrong.
Q. W e l l , di d you l ear n t h i s i n t h e s e r vi c e o r di d you
know t h i s ?
No, j u s t what I knew--
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) Such a course of i ns t r uc t i on was never
given t o you?
A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l any.
Q. Exhi bi t M- 2 i s a MACV card e n t i t l e d , "Nine Rules."
Have you ever seen t h a t ; i t ' s a f acs i mi l e, f r ont and back?
A. I do not r e c a l l seei ng t h i s car d, but I remember hear i ng
t hes e st at ement s being. made bef or e.
Q Where di d you hear them?
A. I n Hawaii bef or e we went over t o Vietnam.
Q o Exhi bi t M-3 i s e n t i t l e d , "Enemy i n Your Hands," anot her
MACV card. Have you ever seen t h a t one?
A. No, I haven' t .
(ESTERLING) 3 APP T-270
Q. Do you know which oper at i on we' re concerned wi t h?
The 16t h of March, do you remember t h a t dat e?
A. I remember t h a t dat e. A t t h e time, I d i d n ' t know
what da t e it was, but I do remember a l i t t l e b i t of what
happened t h a t day, not a whole l o t .
Q. What we' re going t o do i s t o ask you what you were
br i e f e d on, and what you w e r e t o l d bef or e t h i s oper at i on
s t a r t e d . Then we' re going t o o r i e n t you on t he ar ea and t e l l
you what we have det ermi ned, from t he st andpoi nt pt i mar i l y of
documents, a s t o what happened. We're going t o ask you t o
f i l l i n t he t hi ngs t h a t we don' t know. A l l r i g h t , now, t he
f i r s t t hi ng i s t h e day bef or e t he oper at i on, you shoul d have
been br i e f e d o r given an or der o r i n some way been t o l d what
w a s going t o happen t h e next day. I ' d l i k e t o know who t o l d
you what was going t o happen and what t hey s ai d.
A. I don' t t hi nk I can remember who s a i d what was going
t o happen t he next day o r what t hey s a i d; I coul dn' t say.
Q
wel l , you had a squad l eader and an a c t i ng pl at oon
l eader . Did e i t h e r one of them t e l l you?
A. I don' t know. I t could have been, I r e a l l y don' t
know. I c a n' t remember who gave it. I t might not have been
even gi ven t he day before.
Q You l e f t p r e t t y e a r l y t h a t morning; it coul d have
been gi ven t he next morning.
A. It could have been gi ven t h a t morning.
Q Qui t e pos s i bl y, i f you r e c a l l t h a t ; do you r e c a l l t ha t ?
A. I don' t r e c a l l it bei ng t h a t morning, but I would
say it was i n t h e morning more t han t he ni ght bef or e.
Q. Somebody would have t o t e l l you how l ong you we r e
going t o be out , whether t o t ake r a t i o n s o r not , how much
ammunition t o t ake, what he l i c opt e r you were going t o g e t aboard,
and what time you were going t o l eave. A l l t h i s i nformat i on,
somebody had t o put it out .
A. I t w a s put out t o us. I t always was each t i m e
bef or e. It was always put out how l ong appr oxi mat el y we' r e
supposed t o be o u t , and how much r a t i o n s we were supposed t o
t ake each t i me. I t was always t o l d t o us .
Q. Who t o l d you?
A. W e l l , us ua l l y t h e company commander passed t h e word
down t o t h e pl at oon l e a de r s , pl at oon s e r ge a nt s , and squad
l eader s . I t was us ua l l y done t h a t way, but I c a n ' t remember
s p e c i f i c a l l y who itwas t h a t t o l d us . Sometimes we had a
company f or mat i on, and t h e CO would t e l l us a l l t h i s i nf or mat i on
hi msel f t o hake s ur e t h a t everybody hear d. When itwas n' t
a va i l a bl e , we had t o move out e a r l y o r somet hi ng, he' d pas s
ital ong t hr ough t h e pl at oon.
Q. Now t h i s is t h e oper at i on you recal l t h a t Li eut enant
COCHRAN w a s k i l l e d on.
A. Y e s .
Q. And itwas t he - - i t coul d have been t h e day bef or e, it
coul d have been t h a t morning, t h e r e shoul d have been some
i nf or mat i on put out . I ' m t r y i n g ever y way I know how t o f i nd
out whet her t h e squad l e a de r s br i e f e d t h i s , whet her t h e pl at oon
l e a de r s , o r whet her t h e company commander di d.
A. I c a n ' t remember which one itwould have been. I ' m
t r y i n g t o remember which bas e camp we l e f t from t h a t morning.
be l i e ve itwa s LZ Upt i ght .
Q - You w e r e up a t upt i ght .
A. Yeah.
Q. About ni ne s l i c k s came i n t he r e .
A. Nine of them t h a t day?
Q. TWOl i f t s shoul d have been needed t o g e t B Company
i n t o t h e area. The l as t l i f t c l e a r e d about 0847.
A. I c a n ' t remember, t h a t morning, who gave t h e or der .
I
Q Okay. What or der s were given concerni ng des t r uct i on
of v i l l a g e s and houses and s o f or t h?
A. Well., a s much a s I can r e c a l l , t h i s was our f i r s t
sear ch and des t r oy mi ssi on a s it was put out t o us. We'd
never been on a search and des t r oy mi ssi on before.
Q Okay. What t ype mi ssi ons had you been on before?
A. W e l l , we went on sear ch and c l e a r mi ssi ons bef or e.
W e went through t he v i l l a g e s t h i s day it was supposed t o
have been a t i g h t community of V i e t Cong sympat hi zers.
Q Ri ght , t h a t ' s c or r e c t . L e t me ask you a ques t i on
about t h i s sear ch and des t r oy whi l e w e ' r e on it. The f i r s t
on you' d been on?
A. That ' s t h e f i r s t one t hey c a l l e d sear ch and des t r oy,
yeah.
Q- And was t h i s put out t o t he company o r was it put out
by t h e squad l eader s , t h e pl at oon l eader s , o r what?
A. I would t hi nk it would be by t he pl at oon l eader s
t h a t morning, sear ch and des t r oy.
Q Okay, you were t o l d you were going on a sear ch and
des t r oy mi ssi on. Now t h e s ear ch and des t r oy mi ssi on, had you
had any br i e f i ngs on t h i s , t h e di f f er ence i n t he sear ch and
c l e a r and sear ch and des t r oy?
A. Yeah, wel l ; l e t ' s see.
Q What d i d it mean t o you?
A. W e l l t h e onl y di f f er ence I knew t h a t we were going t o
go through t hose v i l l a g e s and sear ch them a s we normally di d and
anyt hi ng t h a t would have been any a i d t o t he V i e t Cong, we' re
going t o des t r oy it.
Q Now, w e r e t he r e any i ns t r uc t i ons passed out t o t he
squads o r was any i ns t r uc t i on given a s t o t he method of dest r oy-
i ng t hes e vi l l a ge s . I ' m speaki ng pr i mar i l y r i g h t now of vi l l a ge s ,
houses.
A. A s f a r a s des t r uct i on of anyt hi ng, it was us ual l y
l e f t up t o--usual l y got t hose or der s from t he pl at oon l eader
o r squad l eader .
Q . Well, was it put out bef or e you went i n t o t he ar ea?
A. No, I c a n' t remember it bei ng put o u t how we were
going t o dest r oy anyt hi ng.
Q What about foodst ock, anyt hi ng d e f i n i t e s t a t e d about
foodstock i n t her e?
A. I c a n ' t remember any bi g supply of anyt hi ng abnormal
t o t he c i v i l i a n s themselves.
Q. Nothing s ai d about t h e method of de s t r uc t i on and so f or t 1
A. W e l l , we us ual l y burned any bi g suppl y of foodst ock.
Q- How about animals?
A. . Animals, not hi ng t o do wi t h them.
Q.
What or der s were gi ven concerni ng t h e v i l l a g e r s ,
i nhabi t ant s ? Any s pe c i a l i ns t r uc t i ons on t hes e people? .
A, Yeah, we were supposed t o gat her everybody out of
t he vi l l a ge . Get everyone out of the v i l l a g e and g e t them
all t oget her i n a group and have them watched. Get eve~ybody
out of t he v i l l a g e so we could c l e a r it of anybody we t hought
might be i n t here as Vi et Co ~g . W e were told t o sear ch t h e
t unnel s , sear ch everyt hi ng, and ge t everybody out .
Q. Is t h i s d i f f e r e n t from any ot her oper at i on you' d
been on from t h e st andpoi nt of what you' re supposed t o do wi t h
t h e vi l l a ge r s ?
A. W e l l , most oper at i ons we d i d n ' t always g e t t he v i l l a g e r s
i n a group. Wevd j u s t go through and sear ch it and l eave them
where t he y' r e a$. Not always, sometimes we di d, sometimes we
di dn' t .
Q So you had done t h i s bef or e, you bad rounded them
up before.
(ESTEWING) 7 APP T-270
A. That ' s r i ght . We had rounded them up bef or e i n groups.
I
Q Did you know you were going i n t o Pi nkvi l l e?
A. Yes, t h a t ' s what we c a l l e d it, Pi nkvi l l e.
Q Did t h i s have any impression on you? Did you t hi nk
about - - di d t h i s mean anyt hi ng d i f f e r e n t from going on any
ot he r oper at i ons?
A. W e l l , everybody was more scared going down t o Pi nkvi l l e
because it w a s loaded wi t h l and mines. qui t e a few of them. Every-
body was a f r a i d of t h a t . W e l o s t more men down t he r e on mines.
Also we had more enemy cont act i n Pi nkvi l l e and na t ur a l l y every-
body was nervous about t h e oper at i on t h a t day.
Q. What about t he Batangan Peni nsul a? Did you have any
s i m i l i a r i dea about t he Batangan Peni nsul a t h a t you di d about
Pi nkvi l l e? W a s it about t h e same o r was it a more f avor abl e
a r e a t o oper at e i n from t he s t andpoi nt of c a s ua l t i e s ?
A, There bot h - - we l l it was t he f i r s t t i m e we'd gone on
t h e peni nsul a, we d i d n ' t r e a l l y know. But it was n' t qui t e a s
bad a s going through Pi nkvi l l e.
Q I t wasn' t ?
A.
Except w e l l - - no I c a n ' t say t h a t . We d i d ge t h i t
on t he peni nsul a t oo. We got h i t bad t he r e one time.
Q Well, t he - - di d t h e br i e f i ng o r i nformat i on you got
p r i o r t o l eavi ng gi ve you any i dea of what t he enemy s i t u a t i o n
wa s down t her e? What t h e enemy f or ce s i z e was o r anyt hi ng l i k e
t h i s ? Thinking from t he s t andpoi nt of what you were t ol d, not
what you knew.
A. Well, l e t ' s s ee, down a t Pi nkvi l l e I t hi nk t hey had sus-
pect ed I ' m not s ur e but I t hi nk t hey suspect ed a t l e a s t a bat t al i on-
s i z e f or ce of V i e t Cong, There was supposed t o have been a
l a r ge f or ce down t her e. We r an i nt o, had cont act wi t h them q u i t e
a few t i mes.
Q. B Company di d?
A. B Company and A Company and C Company of t he t as k
f or ce.
Q . Did B Company - - were you wi t h B Company t h e l a s t
time t hey were down t her e?
A. No, I wasn' t myself. I t hi nk it was j u s t two of t h e
pl at oons t h a t went out t he l a s t time.
Q. What was t h e ot her pl at oon doi ng, s i t t i n g on Upt i ght ?
A. No, it was on Dot t i e.
Q. Secur i t y?
A. Yes, s e c ur i t y on Dot t i e.
Q Which pl at oon was t h a t , do you know?
A. 3d Pl at oon.
Q. 3d Pl at oon remained a t Upt i ght . Now which - -
A. LZ Dot t i e.
Q I ' m s or r y, Dot t i e. For which oper at i on was it, t he
oper at i on i n e a r l y February o r l a t e February ?
A. I coul dn' t be s ur e on t he dat e. I woul dn' t know. I
never r e a l l y kept t r ack of t he days o r months very w e l l .
Q. Do you remember any of t he people t h a t were wounded
o r k i l l e d on t he oper at i on when you st ayed on Upt i ght ?
A. Well, t he pl at oon l eader , 2d Pl at oon, was s hot i n
t h e shoul der.
Q . Is t h a t CARTER?
A; No, si r, t h a t was - - he wasn' t wel l , he l e f t t h a t
day. H e was a s hor t fel l ow. I c a n ' t remember h i s name.
Q ROSS?
A. Li eut enant ROSS w a s s hot .
Q
He was s hot on t h a t oper at i on? That ' s t h e oper at i on he
wa s s hot on?
A. ' Yeah.
Q
Do you remember what t h e pl at oons of B Company were
supposed t o do? l st , 2d, 3d Pl at oon a f t e r t hey h i t t he ground?
A. On t h a t day?
Q. Y e s .
A.
They set up s e c ur i t y r i g h t away, we weren ' t going any-
where. ,
Q. Move out ?
A. Not r i g h t away. You always got t o set up your s e c ur i t y
f i r s t , bef or e you move out .
Q. Then what?
A. W e l l , t hen t h a t ' s when Li eut enant COCHRAN st epped on t he
mine. W e had t o w a i t awhile f o r dus t of f t o come i n f o r him and a
few ot her f el l ows , t hen a f t e r - -
Q.
( I nt er pos i ng)
But I mean do you know what t he br i e f i ng
s a i d t hey w e r e going t o do?
A. Well, yeah, we were t o move i n t o t he vi l l a ge , a few
vi l l a ge s t he r e i n Pi nkvi l l e and sear ch them.
Q.
The whole company o r j u s t one of t h e pl at oons?
A. W e l l , we had t he whole company.
Q. Le t ' s see, Li eut enant ROSS was at t ached t o t he 2d
Sur gi cal Hospi t al on t he 12t h of February accordi ng t o t he
morning r e por t s , Exhi bi t R-4. So t he 12t h, mid-February would
have been t he t i m e t h a t you w e r e a t Upt i ght and t h e rest of
t h e company - - at Dot t i e.
A- Yeah.
10
APP T-270
Q Do you remember what t h e squads i n t h e pl at oons w e r e
supposed t o do? W a s one squad supposed t o j u s t l e a d of f o r
anot her one f ol l ow o r were any i n s t r u c t i o n s gi ven on what ' s
goi ng t o happen ,when you l e f t t h e l andi ng zone.
A. I c a n ' t remember any or der gi ven bef or e we h i t t he
l andi ng zone on what each squad was goi ng t o do. I i magi ne
t h e r e were, t hey us ua l l y were gi ven t o us. I c a n ' t remember
s p e c i f i c a l l y .
Q Do you r e c a l l whet her t h e r e wa s anyt ' hi ng s a i d about
one pl at oon l eavi ng t h e company, goi ng of f by i t s e l f ?
A. I t seemed t o me l i k e - - w e l l I r e c a l l t h e 1st Pl at oon
w a s o f f , it seemed l i k e it was of f by i t s e l f . I d i d n ' t see it
much t h a t day.
Q.
Did you know t h a t be f or e you went i n o r a f t e r you g o t
t he r e ?
A. I t w a s aft er I got t he r e . I d i d n ' t know t hey' d be
o f f by t hemsel ves be f or e w e went i n .
Q- Would you recal l , t he oper at i on as you remember it.
(COL WILSON o r i e n t s wi t nes s on t h e maps and a e r i a l phot os. )
A. You mean from when we - -
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) You l anded and what d i d you do? Was
t he r e any f i r e when you l anded?
A. No, I d o n ' t r e c a l l bei ng f i r e d a t , a t a l l t h a t day.
Oh you mean ground f i r e , bur ni ng. I c a n ' t remember any, no.
And t hen we g o t of f t h e he l i c opt e r s and set up t h e s e c u r i t y
t he r e . I t was n' t t oo l ong a f t e r w e l anded when t h e company - -
w e l l t h e CP group w a s always around i n t h e mi ddl e anyway, and
it was n' t t o o l ong a f t e r Li eut ent ant COCHRAN st epped on t h e
mine. W e had t o wa i t f o r dus t of f t o come i n . The whole
t i m e we we r e hol di ng our s e c u r i t y i n pl ace. When we l anded
we had t o t a ke cover t oo, because w e t hought we w e r e g e t t i n g
s h o t at . W e found o u t l a t e r , we l l about 15 mi nut es o r s o,
it w a s Cha r l i e Company from over i n t h e o t h e r d i r e c t i o n .
Some of t h e i r b u l l e t s w e r e coming our d i r e c t i o n uni nt e nt i ona l l y
and t h a t was stopped s hor t l y.
Q.
How di d you f i nd t h i s out ? Somebody t e l l you t h i s
o r wa s it a r adi o t ransmi ssi on?
A. I t was passed down through t he pl at oon. I t was j u s t
done by shout i ng. I f t h e CO' s cl os e enough h e ' l l t e l l you t o
qui t e shoot i ng over t h a t way.
I f anybody f i r e d back a t them,
t o g e t down, it was our own men.
Q.
W e l l now when t h i s f i r i n g was coming and it was coming
from t h e west , i f it was C Company--
A. ( I nt er posi ng) Yeah.
Q When t h i s f i r i n g was coming from t h e w e s t , di d your
company t ake any act i on t o f i r e back?
A. No.
Q You di dn' t ?
A. No, we d i d n ' t f i r e back. We coul d see- t hem over
t her e.
Q.
W e l l , t hen you d i d n ' t t hi nk it was enemy f i r e a t
f i r s t .
A. We d i d n ' t t hi nk it was enemy--well some t hought it
was and t hey t ol d them not t o , f i r e , t hey were going t o. Be-
cause it was out of M-16 range, it would have t aken machine-
guns. Before , t hey got t h a t s e t up t hey t ol d them not t o f i r e ,
wai t and f i nd out f or s ur e. Well, I d i d n ' t know who was go-
i ng t o be over t he r e , but I guess t he ot her s knew t h a t t he r e
were ot her companies somewhere i n t he ar ea, s a i d t o hol d t h e i r
f i r e u n t i l t hey found out f o r s ur e.
Q Well di d you s t a y low o r di d you move on of f ?
A. Well, we st ayed low t her e f o r q u i t e a whi l e. Then
pa r t of our pl at oon moved up t o t he vi l l a ge , nor t h, whi l e p a r t
of us hel d rear s e c ur i t y and searched t he vi l l a ge . It was
almost i n f r o n t of us , nor t h of us t her e. Then t hey came
back and t he r e s t of us, t he whole pl at oon went over and searched
t he vi l l a ge t h a t was j u s t d i r e c t l y west of us , j u s t a l i t t l e
(ESTERLING) 12
APP T-270
FOR OFFIClHL USL ONLY
ways, not t oo f a r . But t her e was a gap i n between bot h of
them, t he one we searched nor t h and t he one t h a t was west .
There was a l i t t l e gap between them, i n ar ea of t he vi l l a ge .
We searched bot h of them. I t took most of t he morning, I
bel i eve. And a f t e r we got through searchi ng t he vi l l a ge s
t he r e , I c a n ' t r e c a l l much more of what we di d t h a t day un-
til we met up wi t h Char l i e Company. They would have crossed
over. W e m e t t h a t day sometime i n t he l a t e aft ernoon. I
c a n ' t r e c a l l t oo much t h a t happened i n between.
Q Okay, l e t me ask you a quest i on. Do you remember
a bi g gat e over t h e road t he r e , over t h a t t r a i l t h a t had
some wr i t i ng on i t ?
A. There was a l ot --
Q. ( I nt er posi ng) To t he r i g h t a s you crossed t h a t t r a i l
going up nor t h. Maybe you were pa s t it. Where were you l o-
cat ed when Li eut enant COCHRAN h i t t he mine?
A. J u s t west of him about 50 ' meters, i n t he r i c e pad-
di es .
Q- And di d you s ee t he he l i c opt e r evacuat e him?
A. Yeah, a dust of f came i n . Then it came i n agai n
f o r t he next one t h a t was st epped on.
Q. How long--do you t hi nk t h a t t he time t h a t we have
up here--0845 t o 0930, i s t he approximate peri od of t i me,
we' re t a l ki ng about 45 minutes between t hose two mines o r
booby t r aps ?
A. I would say s o because when he st epped on t he f i r s t
mine we had t o wai t a whi l e f or t he dust of f t o ge t t her e.
Well, it onl y seems l i k e i t took a l ong t i me, maybe it d i d n ' t .
But it was a t l e a s t , I ' d say 15 minutes bef or e it got t her e.
Af t er it w a s a l l done t hen someone stepped on one agai n a f t e r
t ha t .
Q. Now t h e second group t h a t was dust ed o f f , do you
remember t he hel i copt er t h a t pi cked them up?
A. The same one came back f or them I bel i eve.
Q. W e have i ndi cat i ons t h a t Colonel BARKER's'cornmand
(ESTERLING) 13
APP T-270
and c ont r ol s h i p pi cked them up.
A. You say do I--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) No, we have i ndi c a t i ons . Did you see t h i s
s hi p?
A. Yeah, he came back t w i c e , dus t of f di d.
Q.
Was it marked as an evacuat i on s hi p?
A. Yeah, it had a b i g r e d c r os s on it.
Q. Both t i mes?
A. Both t i m e s , r i g h t . So because of t h i s r i g h t he r e
we s pe nt q u i t e a whi l e on t h e ground wi t hout moving from our
s e c u r i t y when we f i r s t l anded.
Q .
What di d you hear ? Did you hear anyt hi ng goi ng on
over t h e r e i n t h e 1st Pl at oon ar ea?
A. There wa s some s hoot i ng goi ng on over t he r e . I di d-
n ' t know t h a t t hey w e r e goi ng t o l eave us . I d i d n ' t know it
was t hem. over t h e r e a t f i r s t b u t I found o u t l at er .
Q. Did you s ee any gunshi ps?
A. Yeah, t hey were f l y i n g i n s uppor t of us t h a t day.
Q. Did you see them f i r e ?
A. I c a n ' t recal l t h e gunshi ps f i r i n g . W e had t he
bubbl e gunshi ps t oo, t h e ones wi t h j u s t t h e 60 machineguns
on it.
Q You mean t h e bubbl e was f l y i n g around?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q
When C Company l i nked up wi t h you t h a t day--or f i r s t ,
do you remember t he or der of march wi t hi n t h e pl at oon a f t e r you
l e f t t h e l andi ng zone. Do you remember which squad w a s f i r s t ,
which wa s second and which was t h i r d ?
(ESTERLING) 1 4 APP T-270
FOR OFFICIAL - USE ONLY
A. No, we got on l i n e t hen and went through on l i n e .
Q Abreast?
A. Abreast . Because t he vi l l a ge wasn' t t h a t f a r away,
we wanted t o sweep through t he vi l l a ge , wi t h our r e a r secur-
i t y a br e a s t behind us and t he l i n e i n f r ont .
Q
Did you t hi nk you were going t o sweep Pi nkvi l l e o r
what? You know Pi nkvi l l e i s t he vi l l a ge of My Lai (1).
A. Yeah.
Q The one over t he coas t , cl os e t o t he coast .
A. W e l l , I thought Pi nkvi l l e vi l l a ge was t h e whole ar ea
t h a t wa s pink on t he map.
(Colonel WILSON or i ent ed M r . ESTERLING on t he map
of t he Pi nkvi l l e ar ea. )
Q.
My ques t i on i s, di d you t hi nk you were going t o
sweep through Pi nkvi l l e?
A. Well, I don' t remember i f we w e r e going through it
or not , I c a n ' t remember. But we coul dn' t have landed t h a t
f ar away from where t hey got wounded though.
Q - W e l l t he wounded--the people t h a t were wounded, were
wounded, r i g h t on t he edge of t he Pi nkvi l l e, My Lai (1).
4- W e l l , t h a t ' s where we landed t hen.
Q Yes, .not t oo f a r from t her e.
A. Yeah, r i ght .
Q From t he time you landed u n t i l you got your f i r s t
wounded was onl y a f e w mi nut es, probably about 1 0 o r 15 min-
ut es . From t he time a l l t he company cl osed i n t her e.
A. It wasn' t long a t a l l .
Q- So you s o r t of st ayed around i n t h a t ar ea t h a t af -
t ernoon and j u s t searched t h a t one vi l l a ge . It woul dn' t have
been Pi nkvi l l e, but it was a v i l l a g e t h a t you searched?
A. Yeah, r i ght . Well, from where he was wounded, on
t he map it would have been--well, almost d i r e c t l y w e s t from
it, where our pl at oon was, t h e 3d Pl at oon.
Q. Could you gi ve u s an i dea, from t h a t photograph,
what vi l l a ge it i s t h a t you swept?
A. Well, I could t e l l e a s i e r from r i g h t her e, coul d
you t e l l me where Li eut enant COCHRAN was
ki l l e d.
Q. Ri ght t he r e , r i g h t a t t h i s hedgerow.
A. Okay, r i g h t , t h e r e ' s a hedgerow t he r e . Well, i f
he was k i l l e d r i g h t t he r e our pl at oon searched--i t must have
been j u s t t hes e few r i g h t up i n here. See t hos e two l i t t l e
bl ack dot s t her e.
Q. These two?
A. Yeah, we searched t hose f i r s t , t hen w e came r i g h t
over her e, must have been t h i s qroup of vi l l a ge s r i g h t her e.
LTC NOLL: Where di d you spend t he ni ght i n r e l a t i o n t o t h i s
vi l l a ge , t h i s smal l group of bui l di ngs .
A. W e l l , it would have been nor t h of t her e. I remem-
ber t he l aager pos i t i on r e a l wel l , but it was t h e f i r s t t i me
we l aagered i n t h i s s pot . It was i n a vi l l a ge t h a t w e l aag-
ered t h a t ni ght . We l aagered r i g h t i n t he v i l l a g e al ong t he
--made t he hedgerows our per i met er , what we used for a perim-
e t e r t h a t ni ght .
COL WILSON: You di d s t a y i n t he vi l l a ge t h a t ni ght ?
A. We stayed--our hedgerows were t he peri met er t h a t
ni ght , f or around t he vi l l a ge .
Q Where' s C Company?
A. With C Company, yeah. I wasn' t aware t h e 1st Pla-
t oon wasn' t wi t h us t h a t ni ght . I d i d n ' t know t h a t .
i
(ESTERLI NG ) 16 APP T-270
LTC NOLL: What l i f t were you on, do you r e c a l l ?
A. I c a n ' t remember which l i f t . I don' t bel i eve it
was t he f i r s t one. I t might not have been. I c a n ' t say f o r
s ur e whi ch, i f we were on t he f i r s t o r t he second.
Q You moved out--platoon moved out on l i n e , t he 2d
Pl at oon was on your r i g h t .
A. Yeah, t hey would have been on our r i g h t , but t hey
d i d n ' t go wi t h us i n t he d i r e c t i a n we were going.
Q . Were t hey moving on l i n e o r were t hey i n column?
A. I coul dn' t say which way t he 2d Pl at oon was moving.
COL WILSON: Was any pa r t of your peri met er on t h e wat er t h a t
ni ght ?,
A. Not t h a t ni ght , no.
Q . I mean on t he r i v e r t he r e , t he st ream t h a t came down
t her e. It could have been, a t t h a t time of year , a dr y stream-
bed.
A. No, I don' t t hi nk so, not ' t ha t ni ght .
LTC NOLL: You searched one vi l l a ge ?
A. I searched one vi l l a ge . I remember--well, l e t ' s
s ee, a f t e r we got through searchi ng t h a t v i l l a g e I remember
now t h a t w e went back over to--well, it must have been j u s t
about t h e a r e a of Pi nkvi l l e t he r e , where we s e t up a l aager--
not a l aager , we s e t up s e c ur i t y and a t e lunch a t noon. Le t ' s
s ee, a f t e r t h a t now, I c a n' t remember where we went through
but I do remember going through a l o t of--well where t he a i r
s t r i k e s o r a r t i l l e r y , one of t he two, had gone through, where
a l o t of houses were bur nt down and blown up. Went through
some of t he vi l l a ge s t o s ee what we could f i nd.
COL WILSON: Is that--was t h a t t h e f i r s t day?
A. That ' s t h e f i r s t day, yeah. I remember t h a t now.
I don' t remember f i ndi ng anyt hi ng t h a t day though.
(ESTERLING) 17
APP T-270
Q . What di d you do wi t h t h e peopl e i n t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. W e found about --I t hi nk it wa s about s i x mi l i t a r y-
age men t h a t w e kept , t h e rest we l e t go. W e had them t h a t
ni ght , we ke pt them wi t h us a l l ni ght . A s a matter of f a c t ,
my squad guarded them a l l ni ght , my pos i t i on on t h e l i n e .
W e p u t them i n a hut t h e r e and we had them guarded a l l ni ght
l ong.
LTC NOLL: Did anybody come al ong t o i nt e r r oga t e ?
A. I be l i e ve t hey w e r e i nt e r r oga t e d be f or e t hey gave
them t o us t o keep a l l ni ght . Then t h e next morning, I c a n ' t
remember i f t hey t ook them i n r i g h t t h e r e o r t ook them wi t h
us t h a t day, I c a n ' t remember f o r s ur e. I would imagine t hey
t ook them i n f o r i nt e r r oga t i on, si r, because t hey w e r e a l l
young heal t hy men, about s i x of them.
COL WILSON: Were t hey abused, d i d you see the--what t h e i r
condi t i on wa s ? Wounded o r h u r t o r be a t up o r any?
A. No, t hey wer en' t , not i n any way.
Q Do you r ecogni ze Phot o P-18?
A. Yeah.
Q. A l l r i g h t , number one, where is t h a t ?
A. Thi s i s t h e ni ght w e l aager ed wi t h Cha r l i e Company.
Q. And who' s guar di ng t h e pr i s oner s ?
A. That ' s HUFFMAN.
Q I mean appar ent l y guar di ng t h e pr i s one r s ? A r e t hos e
t h e pr i s one r s you we r e t a l k i n g about ?
A. Thi s f el l ow he r e l ooks awful f a mi l i a r .
Q. The second man from t h e l e f t ?
A. Yeah, b u t I was l ooki ng f o r anot her f a c e I had r e a l
f a mi l i a r . T h i s guy l ooks l i ke- - i f I coul d see h i s f a c e he
l ooks f a mi l i a r b u t I--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) The man i n whi t e wi t h h i s back t ur ned?
A. Yeah, t h e r e ' s anot her one I remember r e a l w e l l be-
cause he w a s young, heal t hy, and r e a l s t r ong. I don' t re-
member keepi ng the--we mi ght have kept t h e boys, I c a n ' t re-
member i f we kept them or n o t .
Q. The two boys on t he r i g h t ?
A. Yeah, I d o n ' t remember keepi ng them.
Q But t h i s was i n t h e l aager a r e a . What' s HUFFMAN
doi ng, guar di ng them? I t hought you s a i d your pl at oon had
them.
A. W e l l , t hey had them dur i ng t h e day b u t t hey gave
them t o us t h a t ni ght t o watch.
Q The 3d Pl at oon?
A, Yeah, t h e 3d Pl at oon. W e d i d n ' t g e t them u n t i l
t h a t ni ght .
Do you r ecogni ze- - t hi s i s P-19. Do you r ecogni ze
of t h e Vietnamese i n t h a t phot ograph?
No, I woul dn' t r ecogni ze any of t hos e.
Do you r ecogni ze t h e l oc a t i on of t hos e peopl e, P-20?
I c a n ' t r ecogni ze t h e l oc a t i on.
P-21?
No.
P-22?
I remember t h a t ol d man, r i g h t t he r e .
You remember t h i s ol d man?
Yeah.
What do you remember about him?
(ESTERLING) 19
APP T-270
A.
I c a n ' t remember anyt hi ng except he always ke pt say-
ing--we c oul dn' t under st and what he was s ayi ng b u t he ke pt
s ayi ng he d i d n ' t do anyt hi ng, t h a t ' s what he t r i e d t o g e t a-
cr os s t h a t t h e r e w a s not hi ng wrong wi t h him. I remember t h i s
f el l ow was--
Q-
( I nt er pos i ng) The man i n t he c e nt e r wi t h t h e hel met on?
A.
Yeah, he w a s from b a t t a l i o n I be l i e ve , ' came o u t wi t h
t he i n t e r p r e t e r . I d o n ' t remember e x p l i c i t l y what h i s j ob
was.
Q
Did you see--do you remember s eei ng him t h a t day?
A. I c a n ' t remember t h a t day but I remember s e e i ng him.
I c a n ' t remember t h a t day.
Q
But you remember t h i s o l d man t h a t day?
A. . I c a n ' t say t h a t day but I remember s e e i ng t h a t man.
Q
Anything happen t o t h a t o l d man?
Q - Me j u s t ke pt wal ki ng around?
A.
W e l l , t hey l e t him go event ual l y o r t ook h i m i n ,
one of t he two.
Q
' Di d you pi ck him up i n t he v i l l a g e ?
. .
A. I d i d n ' t pi ck him up mysel f .
Q. Did you s e e him i n t he v i l l a g e ?
A. I ' v e s een him i n t he v i l l a g e bef or e, yes .
Q
You d o n ' t remember anyt hi ng e l s e .
A. N o , I c a n ' t remember much about him.
Q.
Thi s phot ograph he r e , you r ecogni ze any of t h e V i e t -
namese?
A. I c a n ' t remember them.
Q
You s ee Capt ai n MICHLES on t he l e f t .
Can you
t e l l what he ' s doi ng, or do you know where he i s ?
A. W e l l , he ' s l ooki ng a t t h e i r I D car ds , appar ent l y,
checking t h e i r I D I s .
Q
Where do you t hi nk t h i s l ocat i on i s ?
A. I t ' s probably on t h a t oper at i on. I remember--1
t hi nk I remember t h a t pi c t ur e bei ng t aken.
I t w a s put i n
one of the--I t hi nk it was t he br i gade newspaper or some-
t hi ng t hey put out .
Q
Who took t he pi ct ur e?
A. I don' t know who took t he pi ct ur e. '
Q
DO you recogni ze t h i s Vietnamese wi t h Capt ai n MICHLES?
A. I c a n ' t remember t h a t one, no.
Q. How about t h i s Vietnamese her e on t h e l e f t ; di d
you ever see him?
A. No, I don' t recogni ze him.
Q. That ' s photo P-66. Did you observe a t any t i m e
o r any time dur i ng t he ni ght , d i d you hear any f i r i n g i ns i de
t he peri met er?
A. Well, mort ars were f i r i n g . They f i r e d whi t e
phosphorus and some l i v e rounds. They expected an at t ack
t h a t ni ght and t hey kept--
( I nt er pos i ng) They f i r e d f l a r e s o r WP?
Q
But di d you hear any smal l arms f i r e i n t he
peri met er?
A. Not t h a t ni ght , I don' t t hi nk.
Q.
Anything e l s e on t he f i r s t day you can r e c a l l ?
(ESTERLING)
APP T-270
A. Yeah, I can r e c a l l we a l l , w e l l , wal ki ng pa s t
Cha r l i e Company t h a t day. Tha t ' s what r e a l l y g o t me about
t h a t day more t han anyt hi ng. I walked p a s t a few of t h e i r
f el l ows t he r e . They w e r e s i t t i n g down r e s t i n g and one f el l ow
s a i d he d i d n ' t f e e l t oo good and I asked him why. H e s a i d ,
"Because of what we di d t oday. " I asked him what t hey di d. He
s ays , "Well most of t he guys over t h e r e , t hey went t hrough and
s hot j u s t about everybody over i n t h a t v i l l a g e . " H e s a i d , "I
j u s t don' t f e e l good." H e s a i d some of t he guys over t h e r e
raped women t hen s hot them a f t e r t hey raped them. Tha t ' s one
t hi ng I d i s t i n c t l y remember about t h a t day t h a t I t hought wa s
r e a l l y*a wf ul . I c oul dn' t be l i e ve it. The guys s i t t i n g t h e r e
s a i d t hey c oul dn' t be l i e ve itt hemsel ves. They s a i d t hey
c oul dn' t be l i e ve some of t he guys t h a t had done itand t hey
we r e just s i c k about it.
Q. Who t o l d you t h i s ?
A. I never saw t he f el l ow bef or e i n my l i f e . I pro-
babl y woul dn' t even r ecogni ze him. I t wa s j u s t s o me peopl e
i n Cha r l i e Company,
Q. How l ong d i d you t a l k t o them?
A. J u s t walked by them, t h a t ' s what t hey t o l d me.
Q- You don' t know what pl at oon t hey w e r e i n ?
A. I woul dn' t have any i dea.
9. Did you e ve r hear anybody i n B Company s ay anyt hi ng
l i k e t h a t ?
A. Yeah, I ' v e hear d guys i n our company say t hi ngs l i k e
t h a t , t oo.
On t h i s oper at i on?
A. On t h a t oper at i on.
Q. Okay, w e ' l l g e t t o t h a t . Maybe we' d b e t t e r g e t t o .)
t h a t r i g h t now. What was i t ?
A. W e l l , I heard t he 1stPl at oon had done somet hi ng of
t he same na t ur e t h a t day. Tha t ' s j u s t what I hear d and t h a t ' s
about a l l .
Q. When di d you hear t h a t ?
A. On t h a t day.
Q The f i r s t d-ay?
A. Y e s .
Q What di d t h e 1st Pl at oon do?
A.
They s a i d t hey went t hrough and k i l l e d about --wel l ,
t hey k i l l e d a l o t of peopl e i n t h e v i l l a g e t hey went t hr ough
t h a t day. It seems l i k e t hey s a i d t hey k i l l e d about 40 peopl e
over t he r e . They s a i d shoot i ng a l o t of peopl e.
Q. Anything e l s e ?
A. No, I c a n ' t remember anyt hi ng e l s e t hey s a i d t hey
di d except some of them w e r e br aggi ng about it t h a t day; some
of them seemed t o en joy it.
Q a
And you hear d t h i s t h e f i r s t day; d i d you hear it
t h a t ni ght o r when di d you hear i t ?
A. Sometime t h a t day. Come t o t hi nk of it, it c oul dn' t
have been t h a t day because we wer en' t ever wi t h them. Must
have been t h e second day we were wi t h them.
Q. Who t o l d you t h a t ?
A. W e l l , nobody s p e c i f i c a l l y , j u s t t h a t w a s goi ng down
t hr ough t he whole company about what t hey had done.
Q. W a s it goi ng around t hrough t h e whole company?
A. Y e s .
Q
How many peopl e di d you hear w e r e k i l l e d ?
A. I hear d about 40, 40 some.
Q- Did you hear anyt hi ng e l s e ? Hear about any r apes ?
A. Not from t he 1st Pl at oon, I d i d n ' t .
(ESTERLING) 2 3
APP T-270
Q. What di d you hear--what do you mean? Where d i d
you hear i t ?
A. W e l l , j u s t from what I s a i d bef or e about Char l i e
Company.
Q. About C Company?
A. Yeah, t h a t ' s when. Some of t h e o t h e r s , t h a t ' s
t h e onl y t h i n g I hear d about t h a t .
Q.
Did you g e t any d e t a i l s on t hes e 40 peopl e k i l l e d
a s t o how t hey w e r e k i l l e d , whet her t hey w e r e k i l l e d by expl o-
s i v e s o r s m a l l arms f i r e ?
A.
They s a i d t hey went t hrough t he v i l l a g e and t hey
ye l l e d a t peopl e t o s t op a s t hey were coming t hr ough. So a
l o t of them, I guess, w e r e l eavi ng and i f t hey d i d n ' t s t op,
t hey s hot them, no mat t er what it wa s .
Q. Any more i nf or mat i on?
A. Tha t ' s a l l I know about t h a t .
Okay. You s t ayed i n t h e l a a ge r a r e a t h a t ni ght ?
Y e s .
Not hi ng of any s i gni f i c a nc e happened?
A. No.
Q. You d i d n ' t hear any--did you s ee any Nat i onal
Pol i c e o r ARVN come i n wi t h C Company when t hey j oi ned you
t h a t day?
A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l .
Q. You don' t r e c a l l ?
A. No, I don' t recal l any ARVN coming i n .
Q I n t e r p r e t e r s , i nt e r r oga t or s ?
A.
W e al ways had- - j ust about al ways had a n i n t e r p r e t e r
wi t h us.
24
APP T-270
Q. Do you know who t h e i n t e r p r e t e r was?
A. No, I don' t remember by name.
Q. You d i d n ' t hear of any mi st r eat ment of de t a i ne e s
t h a t ni ght ?
A. No.
Q. O r shoot i ng?
A. No.
Q Okay. You got up t h e next day and moved out toward
t he br i dge, r i g h t , o r di d anyt hi ng happen bef or e you moved t o
t h e br i dge?
A. W e l l , t he next morning, I remember--I c a n ' t remember
t oo much about what w e di d t he next morning except moving out .
I d o n ' t remember e xa c t l y which d i r e c t i o n w e went t h e next morning.
Q. You d o n ' t remember which d i r e c t i o n you went t h e
next morning?
A. W e l l , na t ur a l l y we woul dn' t have gone back i n t he
d i r e c t i o n we came from. I imagine it would have been nor t h o r
it seemed l i k e we went up al ong--I c a n ' t remember i f we cr os s ed
t he br i dge over--I t hi nk we cr ossed t h e br i dge t h e next morning
over where 1st Pl at oon had been. W e went over t he r e . A man
got wounded on t h e br i dge t h a t morning, t oo.
Q. Okay. Thi s i s what we t hi nk.
A. Yeah, t h e man--
Q. (interposing) TAYLOR?
A. TAYLOR, r i g h t . Moved acr os s t h e br i dge t h a t morning
and our pl at oon set up s e c ur i t y on t he ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge.
Q. Now l e t me as k you a ques t i on. While you we r e moving
down toward t h e br i dge, di d you move down t h a t same t r a i l ? Did yo^
move down t h a t t r a i l t hr ough t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. I d o n ' t remember e xa c t l y which t r a i l we di d t a ke over
t o t he r e . W e had t o come back al most --
['OR OI.'F'ICIAL USE ONI J Y
Q ( I nt er pos i ng) You had t o come back s out h.
A. Sout h, . yeah, had t o come back s out h t o g e t t o
t h e br i dge. Le t ' s see, yeah, we di d come b a c k a c r o s s t h e
br i dge t h i s morning; t ha t ' s where w e woul dhave gone t o .
Because . we di d c r os s t h a t br i dge t h a t morning.
Q. Who cr os s ed t h e br i dge f i r s t , 2d Pl at oon? 3d
Pl at oon?
A.
I can' t remember f o r s ur e . We wer en' t l as t goi ng
acr os s so--I know t h a t because we set up s e c u r i t y whi l e t he
o t h e r s came acr os s . We mi ght have been f i r s t acr os s . I
c a n ' t remember f o r s ur e.
Q.
Do you remember s eei ng TAYLOR when he w a s wounded?
A. N o , I d i d n ' t see him. W e ha dn' t r eached t h e br i dge
yet .
Q.
How f a r w e r e you from t he br i dge when he wa s wounded?
A.
I d o n ' t know. I coul d see t h e smoke go up i n t he
a i r when t h e expl osi on.
.Q . Hear any f i r i n g a f t e r t h a t ?
A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l . W e l l , l e t ' s s e e , yeah, I d i d t oo.
There w a s a n M-60 machinegun goi ng a f t e r t h a t ; it was f i r i n g
on t h e ot he r s i d e of t he br i dge. MILUS was f i r i n g , t h e col or ed
boy t h a t g o t k i l l e d .
Q. What was he doi ng?
A. W e l l , a l l I know i s from what ot he r peopl e s a i d.
H e w a s f i r i n g over t he r e . I d i d n ' t s ee him.
Q =
A r e you t a l k i n g about t h e second day?
A. The second day, yeah.
Q. What d i d you hear about i t ?
A. J u s t t h a t he w a s f i r i n g a t somet hi ng he had seen
over t he r e . I d o n ' t know i f he r e a l l y d i d o r not , t hought - he
had seen somebody over t he r e .
APP T-270
Q Did you s ee t h e gunshi ps?
A. The second day I don' t - - t hey mi ght have been out
t h e r e i n t h e morning but i f t hey were t hey d i d n ' t s t a y a l l
day, I don' t t hi nk. I don' t remember i f t hey were o r not .
Q Don' t you remember any gunshi ps?
A . I don' t recal l them, sir, bei ng around.
Q- Now when you moved down t o t h a t br i dge, do you
remember cover i ng t he movement of a u n i t goi ng acr os s ?
A. I t ' s j u s t vague, it was ei t her--we w e r e e i t h e r
cover i ng t h e movement of anot her pl at oon o r I w a s e i t h e r
over t he r e f , i r s t and our pl at oon had covered t h e rest of our
pl at oon coming over . I c a n ' t remember what it w a s exact l y.
If I had t o say, I ' d say w e w e r e over t h e r e f i r s t more t han
anyt hi ng, I be l i e ve .
Q You t hi nk you were on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e
br i dge bef or e t h e 2d Pl at oon?
A. I t hi nk s o. Yeah, because I remember t e l l i n g them
on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge t o watch t h e i r s t e p because
it had blown p a r t of t h e br i dge on t h e ot he r side. They wer en' t
s ur e i f t he br i dge was compl et el y c l e a r e d on bot h s i d e s o f ' i t .
H e had c l e a r e d a pat h t hr ough t h e mi ddl e on t h e end of it and
made s ur e everybody s t ayed on it.
Q - Did you s ee any mines marked?
A. Yeah, t he r e were some marked on t h e o t h e r s i d e of
t he br i dge t h a t morning. ,
Q They ha dn' t been blown?
A. They blew up a f t e r w e g o t acr os s .
Q. You remember them blowing?
A. Y e s .
Q. Who blew them?
(ESTERL I NG) 27
APP T-270
A: I d o n ' t know who blew them f o r s ur e .
Q Did you see a he l i c opt e r come i n wi t h some demo-
l i t i o n s and engi neer s ?
A. I c a n ' t remember. I don' t t hi nk t he y would have
had t o blow them. We blew a l o t of them our s el ves . W e c a r r i e d
t he equipment t o do it our s el ves .
Q Who c a r r i e d demol i t i ons i n your pl at oon?
A. GUTHRIE .
Q- Was he your demol i t i ons man i n t h e pl at oon?
A. Demol i t i ons man, yeah.
Q. Was he i n t h e t h i r d squad o r which squad was he i n?
A. No, he was n' t i n my squad.
Q. Did you have a poi nt group i n t h e 3d Pl at oon o r wa s
t h a t j u s t t h e 1st Pl at oon?
A. No, we d i d n ' t have a poi nt group, j u s t t h e 1st
Pl at oon.
Q. Squad t h a t w a s i n t h e poi nt f ur ni s hed i t ?
A. Yeah, and you r ot a t e d wi t hi n your squad.
Q. You don' t remember s eei ng t h e mines det onat ed?
A. W e l l , l e t ' s see. I was r i g h t on t h e ot he r s i d e of
t he br i dge s o i f t hey were, I had t o have seen them.
Q. I j u s t wondered--you don' t remember who d i d i t ?
A. I d o n ' t remember who di d it, no.
Q. Did you do any f i r i n g i n t o t h a t v i l l a g e bef or e or
after you cr os s ed t he br i dge?
A. No, we c oul dn' t have. The ot he r pl at oon wa s on t h e
ot he r s i de .
I
Q = They w e r e i n t her e?.
(ESTERLING) 28
APP T-270
A. Yeah, we c o u l d n ' t f i r e over t he r e . They w e r e
hol di ng it down when w e came a c r os s .
Q. Were you t he gunner?
A. Yeah, I was a machinegunner.
Q. Who wa s t h e ammo bear er ?
A. W e l l , l e t s see, it changed a few t i m e s , I t hi nk
EVANS w a s a t t h a t t i m e .
Q. EVANS?
A. EVANS, I be l i e ve , I c a n ' t remember f o r s ur e.
.- Q.! Did you have anybody else i n your s e c t i on?
Q. ( I nt e r pos i ng) You have an a s s i s t a n t gunner?
%
A. Gunner and a s s i s t a n t gunner.
Q Who was your a s s i s t a n t gunner?
A.. EVANS, a s s i s t a n t gunner and ammo bear er .
Q. Oh, you d i d n ' t have an ammo bear er and a s s i s t a n t
. gunner?
A. No, w e us ua l l y d i s t r i b u t e d it out t hrough t h e
pl at oon, t h e whole pl at oon.
Q. Anything else you r e c a l l about c r os s i ng t h e br i dge
' and t h e a c t i on t h a t t ook pl ace t he r e t h a t we haven' t asked?
A . , W e l l , when we cr os s ed t h e br i dge our pl at oon set
up s e c u r i t y r i g h t next t o t he br i dge t h a t ni ght - - I mean
t h a t day because I was j u s t down a ways from t h e br i dge.
I w a s j u s t s out h of t h e br i dge and on t h e ot he r s i d e a
l i t t l e b i t where I set up t h e machinegun and watch t h e ot he r s .
I remember Li eut enant LEWIS came i n t h a t af t er noon.
0-
Which pl at oon di d he t ake over?
A. 2d on t h a t day.
Q . What time di d he come i n ?
A. Itwas i n t he morning bef or e noon sometime.
Q. Who came i n wi t h him?
A. I c a n ' t remember who itwas came wi t h him r i g h t
now. I don' t remember who--
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) Did you s ee a MACVphotographer
come i n t her e?
A. Might have. I don' t know, I c a n ' t remember.
Q. Had on s o f t h a t , e i t h e r jungle ha t o r bas ebal l
cap.
A. Ic a n ' t remember a s o f t cap bei ng- - i t would seem
l i k e I ' d remember one i f he di d have one.
Q. Have a MACV i ns i gni a on i t ?
A. I c a n ' t remember t h a t , no.
Q. D o you remember an i nt e r pr e t e r coming i n with--
t h a t t i m e , wi t h t h e company commander?
A. No. Well, a hel i copt er came i n but , s ee, we were
on our pos i t i on and we wer en' t about t o go back and s ee who
a l l is coming i n .
Q = Did you see t h e hel i copt er ?
A. N o , not from our post i on. There were a l o t of
t r e e s around t h a t ar ea.
a . Now l e t ' s look a t t h i s aer i al ' phot ogr aph. A s you
. - can see fromt h i s photograph your br i dge i s no more,a t
l e a s t i t ' s l o s t p a r t of i t s span. We' l l i nt r oduce t h i s aer-
i a l photograph of t he cr os s i ng sout h of My Lai (1). Thi s
i se xhi bi t P-185.
FOROFFICIAL USE ONLY
FOR, OFFICIAL USE ONLY
(Witness or i ent ed on Exhi bi t P-185.)
The wi t ness des cr i bed on t h e e xhi bi t t h e l oc a t i on
of where h i s machinegun was and t h e f a c t t h a t t hey l ocat ed a
dead woman. Was itt h a t evening?
A. That evening.
Q.
And bur i ed he r over c l o s e t o t h e s ea. Did you bury
he r up on t h a t hi gh ground?
A. On t h e hi gh ground t he r e , t h a t ' s where s he l a y,
t he r e wa s a l o t of sand.
0. Was t h i s t h e onl y body you saw?
A. Tha t ' s t h e onl y one I saw.
Q-
Did you see any evi dence of ot he r bodi es?
A. Not a t a l l , no.
Q.
And what happened t h e rest of t he day t he r e . Any-
t hi ng event f ul ?
A. W e l l , I bel i eve our pl at oon l e f t t h e rest of t h e
company. W e went nor t h, down t h i s way. W e walked down t h a t
p a r t of t h e peni ns ul a, itwas our pl at oon al one. And I think--
w e l l set up a bl ocki ng f or ce i s what we we r e doi ng. W e
d i d n ' t s ear ch anyt hi ng, we j u s t set up a bl ocki ng f or c e a c r os s
t h e peni nsul a from t he ocean clear i n t o t he- - t hi s body of wa-
t er her e.
Q. Okay, t hey r e f e r r e d t o t h i s a s an ambush t h a t ni ght
t h a t you a l l set up.
A. No.
Q. That ' s what t h e l og s ays .
A. Oh, okay.
LTC NOLL: How f a r di d you go, a m a t t e r of 100 yar ds , 200 yar ds?
A. No , about --I' d say 500 a t l e a s t , itwas q u i t e a ways
over , itwas n' t a r e a l s hor t di s t ance.
(ESTERLING) 31 APP Ta270
Q - Do you remember t h e 81 s e c t i on bei ng i n your po-
s i t i o n t h i s day?
A. Not wi t h us t h a t day. W e l l , we set up t h e bl ocki ng
f or c e t h a t day. We d i d n ' t j oi n t h e r e s t of t h e company t h a t
ni ght e i t h e r . Our pl at oon l aager by t hemsel ves back, way
back i n t h i s area bef or e t h e br i dge.
COL WILSON: You mean you moved out and s e t up a bl ocki ng
pos i t i on and you came back and t hey c a l l e d it .an ambush t h a t
night..'
A. Yeah, I guess you coul d have c a l l e d it an ambush.
Q But you moved t h a t day. Did you do any s ear chi ng,
d i d you s ear ch any of t he houses i n t h e ar ea?
A. I d o n ' t remember doi ng any s ear chi ng t h a t day, no.
We j u s t moved down and set up.
Q. Anyt hi ng e l s e happen t h a t day t h a t you can r e c a l l ?
A. No, not t oo much. We g o t our s uppl i e s i n a f t e r t h e
rest of t h e company g o t t h e i r s . W e wer en' t s ur e i f we w e r e
goi ng t o g e t them t h a t ni ght o r not . I c a n ' t remember i f
t h e h e l i c o p t e r dropped them o f f . I t hi nk somebody mi ght have
c a r r i e d them down t o us cause it was l a t e . I d o n ' t r e me m-
ber i f t he he l i c opt e r br ought them down o r not , al most d i d n ' t
g e t any. Thi s i s when we came back t o t h i s a r e a t h a t n i g h t ,
around t h e br i dge and set up.
a- Now di d anyt hi ng happen t h a t n i g h t t h a t you r e c a l l ?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk w e made any c ont a c t t h a t ni ght , not
t h a t I can recal l , no.
MR WALSH: When you came a c r os s t h e br i dge t h a t morning was t h e
1st Pl at oon i n t h e a r e a on t h e ot he r s i d e of t h e br i dge when
you g o t t he r e ?
A. I be l i e ve t hey were s t i l l i n t h e a r e a t hey w e r e
as s i gned, yeah.
a. Did you t a l k t o any of t h e members of t h e 1st
Pl at oon?
(ESTERLING) 32
APP T-270
A. No. They were making a poi nt r e a l c l e a r t h a t
,morning. They wanted everybody t o keep spread out and not
bunch up. Thi s was because, itbei ng a mined a r e a and so
we di dn' t g e t a chance t o t a l k t o anybody i n t h e 1stPla-
toon r i g h t away when we got over.
Q. Well, how di d you hear about t he shoot i ng up of
t he v i l l a g e t he day bef or e by t he 1stPl at oon?
A. It must not have been t h e day bef or e. I t had t o
been a f t e r we got over t her e. I t might have been even t h e
t h i r d day because--well, he f e l t t he same a s I di d, how
t e r r i b l e he f e l t about what was s ai d t o have been going on
from our company and t h e i r company.
Q. Well whether itwas t he f i r s t day o r t he second
day, I ' d l i k e you t o t hi nk r e a l hard and t e l l us everyt hi ng
t h a t you can remember heari ng about it. How itwas done and
any d e t a i l s you remember.
A. Ther e' s not many d e t a i l s I can remember about it.
I t was j u s t hearsay through t he whole company. I n ot her words,
I mean t h e r e ' s no evi dence, I mean itwas j u s t a l l hearsay.
Q. Well, I underst and.
A. I don' t know of any--anything ot her t hey s a i d,
t h a t t hey went over and t hey s hot a l l t he people.
Q. Now was t h i s shoot i ng done by machineguns or by
i ndi vi dual weapons.
A. W e l l we heard machinegun and M-16 t h a t day. Thi s
i st he f i r s t day I ' m t a l ki ng about . We heard M-16 and machine-
guns. A l o t of itt h a t day because I remember commenting
about t he y' r e doi ng a l o t of shoot i ng over t he r e , whoever
was over t her e.
Q. Thi s aft er--before you crossed t he br i dge?
A. Thi s i s t h e f i r s t day, yeah, bef or e we crossed
t he br i dge.
Q. Well, you could hear shoot i ng over t her e?
A. The f i r s t day?
Q. The f i r s t day.
A. Yeah. I d i d n ' t know a t t h e t i me who w a s over
t he r e but it had t o be somebody from us.'
Q Now, di d you ever hear anyt hi ng about--anybody
t e l l you t h a t MILUS mi ght have gone ki nd of wi l d on--with
. t he machinegun?
A. W e l l , I remember peopl e br aggi ng about how he--
t h e onl yl t hi ng I remember about it, he hel d it wi t h one hand
and f eed t h e ammunition wi t h h i s hand and s hoot i ng it t hrough
t h e v i l l a g e . Thi s was t h e second morning I remember him
t a l ki ng about t h i s . Who he s hot on t he second morning t h a t ' s - -
t h i s is what I remember.
Q = Do you remember t h i s p a r t i c u l a r a s pe c t ?
,. A. Yeah, I remember t a l k i n g about how he hel d t h e
gun wi t h one hand and fed t h e ammo wi t h t h e ot he r wi t h it
s t r apped around h i s s houl der .
Q H e was t a l ki ng t hen about how he f i r e d i n t o t he
v i l l a g e on' t he , s e c ond morning bef or e you cr os s ed t h e br i dge?
I
A. Yeah, t h e second morning.
Q - Tha t ' s a f t e r TAYLOR g o t wounded?
A. Ri ght .
a
a
Q . Now f ocus i ng on t h e s t o r i e s you hear d t h a t more
t han 40 peopl e had been k i l l e d , w a s it your under st andi ng
t h a t . a l 1 of t hos e had been k i l l e d by t he 1st Pl at oon f i r i n g
i n t o t he v i l l a g e o r d i d you a l s o hear t h a t s o me of t h e men
had been killed a s t hey came out of bunkers or i n bunkers
wi t h demol i t i on? Did he say anyt hi ng about t h a t a t a l l ?
.I
A. No . The onl y t hi ng t hat - - t hey were shoot i ng, a t
most -everybody t h a t was l eavi ng t he v i l l a g e . I d i d n ' t hear
of them s p o t t i n g anyone t hey t hought was enemy o r anyt hi ng
l i k e t h a t .
Q . They were a l l most l y women and c hi l dr e n and ol d men?
. (ESTERLING) 3 4 APP T-270
A. Wel l , t h a t ' s what i t normal l y was, yeah. I don' t
know i f t he r e were any mi l i t a r y t he r e o r not .
Q Did it s t r i k e you a s odd t h a t a l l t he s e peopl e had
been k i l l e d t h e day bef or e and t he r e wer en' t any bodi es around
t h a t ar ea?
A. Wel l , it i s odd, but t hat ' s - " wel l , t h a t number
e s pe c i a l l y b u t one t hi ng about Vietnam was you know you' ve
s hot peopl e i n. a v i l l a g e from a di s t a nc e be f or e that--when
you 20 i r l t o f i nd them i t ' s awful hard t o f i nd them. They
w e r e a bl e t o--peopl e hi di ng t he bodi es o r t hemsel ves i f t hey
had been wounded r e a l wel l . For some r eason i t ' s har d t o
f i nd them once t hey had been k i l l e d . The c i v i l i a n s them-
s e l v e s gat her ed t he bodi es up a s soon a s t hey can and put
them where we c a n ' t f i nd them. I t ' s r e a l har d t o f i n d them
i n any i nc i de nt .
Q. Did you know Ter r y REED?
A. The name i s r e a l f a mi l i a r . I c a n ' t place--REED--
I t hi nk I can pi c t ur e who it was.
Q Did you ever t a l k t o him about t h i s ?
A. No, I c a n ' t say I t a l ke d t o him about it.
Q Did you ever ques t i on anybody i n t h e 1st Pl at oon
about what had been done t h a t f i r s t day?
A. No, I d i d n ' t ques t i on anybody. I remember I r e a l l y
f e l t l ousy about it myself because I was t he r e and t h e t hi ngs
t h a t t hey s a i d had gone on I d i d n ' t t hi nk was t h e t ype of t hi ngs
we shoul d be doi ng. I t hought --I t al ked it over wi t h my buddy.
I t hought w e shoul d t ur n i n a s a cons ci ent i ous obj e c t or about
t h i s t ype of war bei ng f ought . I d i d n ' t s ee where something l i k e
t h i s shoul d be goi ng on. I remember t a l ki ng t h a t over , but , w e l l ,
we j u s t d i d n ' t agr ee wi t h what had been s a i d had been done. I
d i d n ' t know what had been done f o r s ur e.
Q. Who was t he buddy you t al ked it over wi t h?
rl
a. Lar r y HATCH. He was about t h e b e s t f r i e nd I had over
t he r e .
(ESTERLING) 35
APP T-270
Q. I Do you know where he i s now?
A. W e l l he' s- - I imagine home. He' s from Gi l s on, I l l i n o i s .
Tha t ' s where h e ' s l i v i n g now.
Q. We're ver y i n t e r e s t e d i n r unni ng down e xa c t l y what
happened t he r e . We've g o t some p r e t t y good i ndi c a t i ons t h a t what
you hear d i s p r e t t y c l o s e t o r i g h t , and any s ugges t i ons o r i nf or -
mat i on you can gi ve us t o hel p us pi n down e xa c t l y what t h e f a c t s
and ci r cumst ances were, we' d ver y much l i k e t o g e t . Can you t hi nk
of !mybody t h a t you know who was t h e r e , 1st Pl at oon, who you know
f e l t t h e s a me way you di d about i t ?
A. Not t h e 1st Pl at oon. Usual l y i n t h e f i e l d you d o n ' t
, g e t a chance t o t a l k t o your pl at oon t oo much unl e s s i n t h e
chow l i n e and t hen not ver y much e i t h e r .
Q I t hi nk you s a i d t h a t r i g h t a t t h e ent r ance t o t he
br i dge, per haps on t h e nor t h s i d e of t he t r a i l on t h e approach
t d t h e br i dge, t he r e w e r e a few houses, but not ver y many. About
how f a r away was t h i s v i l l a g e o r c o l l e c t i o n of hoot ches where you
underst ood t h e 40 peopl e had been k i l l e d ?
\
A. W e l l , a s f a r as I under st and of where t hos e peopl e
were bei ng k i l l e d , I d i d n ' t know what v i l l a g e it w a s s pe c i f i -
c a l l y. I t mi ght not have been t h a t one r i g h t i ns i de t h e v i l l a g e .
I r e a l l y d o n ' t know t h a t because I r e a l l y don' t - - r i ght now I
don' t know where t h e 1st Pl at oon went t h a t day on t h e ot he r
s i d e of t he r e . I r e a l l y d o n ' t know. But t h a t v i l l a g e you' r e
speaki ng o f , i t ' s - - I ' d say t h e c l o s e s t hoot ch was about 50
meters froin t h e br i dge a t t h e most.
,
Q. There were onl y a few hoot ches t he r e ?
A. Yeah, not many.
Q. And t hey had been burned when you g o t acr os s ?
A. Yeah, t hey were most l y a l l gone t hen.
Q. Did you s e e any more hoot ches bei ng burned t h a t day,
t h e second day you w e r e a c r os s t he br i dge?
APP T-270
A. No, n a t t h a t day because we w e r e i n a bl ocki ng
p o s i t i o n most of t h e day and w e d i d n ' t do any d e s t r u c t i o n
t h a t day.
Q. You d o n ' t r e c a l l whet her you had s a i d t h e 3d Pl at oon
o r 2d Pl at oon d i d any bur ni ng of hoot ches on t h e f i r s t day?
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l bur ni ng any on t h a t day, t h e f i r s t
day: W e sear ched- - wel l , t h e coupl e t h e r e I showed you f i r s t
and a few t o t h e w e s t . W e d i d n ' t do anyt hi ng t o them. There
wa s n' t much t h e r e t o f i n d s o w e went back. The rest of t h e
a r e a t h a t we sear ched had a l r e a dy been bombed o u t most l y.
There wa s n' t much of anyt hi ng t o d e s t r o y , j u s t s e a r c h t h e
r u i n s was about it.
Q. Did you hear anyt hi ng about t h e 1st Pl at oon us i ng
dynami t e?
A. No.
Q. I ' m n o t s u r e t h a t I--I may have mi sunder st ood you.
Did you; s a y t h a t a f t e r you cr os s ed t h e br i dge , t hey w e r e goi ng
t o blow t h e br i dge ?
A. No, we' d i d n ' t blow it.
COL WILSON: Do yo; r e c a l l any s t r a n g e r s j oi ni ng t h e u n i t
t h a t day, e i t h e r i n t h e eveni ng o r coming back wi t h- - bef or e
t he y l e f t o r do' you r e c a l l anybody coming i n , e ngi ne e r s ,
Vi et npmese, i n t e r p r e t e r s , i n t e r r o g a t o r s , phot ogr apher s?
A. A l l I can remember i s Li e ut e na nt LEWIS coming i n
one day. I know t h e r e was a t l e a s t two of them. I know him
and someone else; t h e r e mi ght have been more t h a n j u s t two,
I c a n ' t remember. A r e you speaki ng of t h e second day?
Q Yes.
A. I ' c a n ' t remember any more, because a c t u a l l y I c o u l d n ' t
s ay who d i d come i n , i f t hey d i d . And we d i d n ' t g e t t o see
t h e company t h e rest of t h e day e i t h e r .
Q. Did t h e h e l i c o p t e r come up and b r i n g some chow t h a t
n i g h t , t h a t eveni ng?
(ESTERLING) 3 7
APP T-270
,
-
A.
I
, I ' m j u s t t r y i n g t o remember i f t hey d i d o r somebody
had t o b r i n g it t o us . ' Cause I remember t here was a d i s c u s s i o n
' o n it. W e we r e n' t s u r e ifw e w e r e goi ng t o get ito r n o t . I
k'npw we d i d g e t it. I c a n ' t remember which itwas. I t mi ght
have been; . t h e h e l i c o p t e r mi ght have come and dr opped ito f f .
More t ha n l i k e l y itd i d because itw a s a ways down t h e r e t o
t h e o t h e r pl a t oon and itwas p r e t t y da r k when itd i d come.
. -
<
Q. , Not hi ng e v e n t f u l happened t h a t n i g h t ?
A. , ' . No, I c a n ' t t h i n k of anyt hi ng.
LTC NOLL: I ' v e g o t a p i c t u r e of some movements on t h e 17t h,
a t l e a s t I t h i n k c e r t a i n pl a t oons moved c e r t a i n d i r e c t i o n s .
~ ' ' mt r y i n g t o p i n down t h e t i m e s a s much a s p o s s i b l e . You
crosSBdl and I b e l i e v e t h a t t h e 2d Pl a t oon o r t h e 1stPl a t oon
moved s out h whi l e you w e r e s t i l l on t h i s l o c a t i o n ( i n d i c a t i n g
on ~ x h i b i t P-16%) .
- A. Y e s .
Q. W e have one l og e n t r y t h a t i n d i c a t e s a t 1040 your
pl ?t oon and t h e 81mm mor t a r s e c t i o n w e r e he r e . Then l at er on--I
won' t s a y l a t e r on--you i n d i c a t e t h a t you moved n o r t h appr oxi mat el $
1500 me t e r s ' and cordoned o f f t h e end of t h e s t r i p of l and.
The r e ' s a l og e n t r y t h a t i n d i c a t e s t h a t you came back t o t h i s
- genegal a r e a ' t o spend t h e n i g h t , and t h e r e ' s a l o g e n t r y t h a t
i ndi c a t e ' s t h e mor t a r s e c t i o n s pe nt t h e n i g h t wi t h t h e rest of
t h e company.
A; Ri ght .
Q. A l l t h e company down s out h and on-ly your pl a t oon
up nor t h?
,. A. . Ri ght .
. I .
Q. ,I d o n " t know how much of t h i s you c a n conf i r m a c t u a l l y
t ook pl a c e , but I would be i n t e r e s t e d i n t h e t i m e of day t h a t
, you b e l i e v e you moved n o r t h t o cor don o f f , s et a cor don a c r o s s
this strip of l and.
,A. I W e l l , I c a n ' t g i v e a t i m e . W e had ne ve r been up
t h e r e . W e d i d n ' t move up i n a hur r y, whi ch n a t u r a l l y we c o u l d n ' t
3 8 APP T-270
I
do. . Af t e r we ' g o t up t o t h e end, we must have s a t t h e r e f o r
about an hour o r s o be f or e w e a t e l unch. W e a t e l unch up
t h e r e t haC day. W e al ways wai t ed u n t i l noon b e f o r e w e a t e .
Everybody t ook t u r n s e a t i n g about t h a t t i m e , s o I ' d s a y it
had t o be i n t h e morni ng, p o s s i b l y 1 0 o ' c l o c k .
Q: ' , Would it be r e a s ona bl e f o r t h e mor t ar s e c t i o n t o
move up and down t ha t - -
A. ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) Not by t hems el ves , it woul dn' t . I f
we l e f t th6m t h e r e by t hemsel ves t he y mi ght have br ought up
t h e r e a r s e c u r i t y f o r t h e r est of t h e company. They mi ght
have s t a y e d and wat ched t h e b r i d g e and made s u r e nobody came
a c r os s . Mi ght have t hought on t h e o t h e r hand, t he y' d t a k e
case- of t h e b r i d g e and t he y' d sweep t h e rest of t h e pe ni ns ul a
. s out h.
COL WILSON: A l l r i g h t , now t h e ne xt day was t h e 1 8 t h , and B
Company came back. Do you remember them coming back from
' t h e s out h, t h e r est of t h e company? You a l l moved nor t h up
t h e s p i t of l and t h e r e .
A. I t h i n k we moved a l mos t a l l t h e way t o t h e end of
t h e pe ni ns ul a t h a t day.
/
Q - Moved on up t h e r e j us t - - di d you n o t i c e when B
Company j oi ne d you? Did you n o t i c e whet her t h e r e w e r e any
~ a t i o n a l . ~ o l i c e , Vi et namese, ARVN pe r s onne l wi t h them?
A. I c a n ' t remember.
Q. Did you n o t i c e whet her t he y had any d e t a i n e e s ,
any Vi et namese c i v i l i a n s w i t h them?
A. I c a n ' t remember t he m. br i ngi ng any wi t h t hem, no.
Q Do you remember a nyt hi ng about a ri ce cache?
LTC.NOEL: That would be j u s t s out h of t h e br i dge .
COL WILSON: 3, 000 pounds.
A. I remember a t i me we d i d f i n d r i c e b u t I c a n ' t remember
it bei ng- - I c a n ' t p l a c e it wi t h t h a t t i m e . I c a n ' t remember
f o r s ur e . ,
\
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY . '
Q Okay. You moved on up i n t o the--do you remember
moving i n t o t h e v i l l a g e s up t h e r e i n t h e nor t h?
A. Y e s .
Q. Going up i n t o t h e v i l l a g e and what happened--rounded
up a bunch of peopl e?
-
A. Rounded up an awful l o t of peopl e t h a t day.
Q Your job would be move t hrough t h e v i l l a g e and send
peopl e back t o t he beach o r what?
A. Yeah, we gat her ed ever yt hi ng t h a t coul d walk, w e
gat her ea up and t ook them i n .
Q. A l l r i g h t . Did you send them back t o t h e group
under guard o r di d you j u s t t e l l them t o move back?
A. , They j u s t t o l d them t o move back. They j ust - - wel l ,
t hey j u s t pushed them back l i k e a her d of cat t l e p r a c t i c a l l y ,
t h a t ' s about a l l t h a t was t o it.
Q. Okay, what was goi ng on back t h e r e , do you know?
A. You mean--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) Back a t t h e beach, back where t hey
w e r e a l l goi ng?
A. W e l l , we br ought i n t he l a s t of them. Our pl at oon
came i n l a s t wi t h a l o t of them. I d o n ' t know what wa s - - I
imagine ' they were ques t i oni ng a l l of them. I ' m not s ur e if
t hey t ook them o u t of t h e r e o r l e t them go o r what. W e l l , w e
herded them a l l down t h e r e and I remember t hey went a l l down
t he rest of t h e beach; I d i d n ' t go down a l l t h e way t o t h e
, end where t hey w. er e goi ng. I d o n ' t know what t hey d i d down
t he r e wi t h them.
Q. Where di d--di d you e ve r g e t back down t he r e , o r
where d i d you go?
A. W e s t ayed on t he- - wel l , we w e r e al most on t h e nor t her n
p a r t of t he *per i met er t h a t ni ght so we st opped.
(ESTERLING) 40
APP T-270
\
Q.
You were on t h e nor t her n p a r t of t he per i met er ;
you never di d g e t back t o t he beach?
. A. We - - we l l , l e t ' s s ee. We came back t o t h e beach.
A l l t h e peopl e were t h e r e and t hey kept on goi ng a l l t h e way--
t hey Bent down t h e beach f u r t h e r from where we l aager ed t h a t
ni ght . Where we st opped on t he beach was j u s t about where we
s e t up our per i met er t h a t ni ght . Mysel f, most of our pl at oon,
we d i d n ' t go down t he r e s t of t h e way. Peopl e j u s t kept on
goi ng. The rest of t he company was havi ng them go a l l t he .
way down t o where most of t he r e s t of t h e peopl e were t h a t
t hey had - gat her edup al r eady.
Q = Are you s ayi ng t h a t t h e 3d Pl at oon remained ne a r l y
i n t h e a r e a of t h e l aager pos i t i on f o r t he ni ght ?
A. - W e l l , j u s t about where we st opped. I t was n' t down
t he beach ver y f a r where t he peopl e st opped e i t h e r .
Q. Tha t ' s where t h e l aager was?
A. Wel l , we br ought a l l t he s e peopl e down he r e and we
we r e headi ng them, I ' d s ay appr oxi mat el y t o t h i s a r e a . We came
out o n , t h e @eachj u s t nor t h of t h e l aager pos i t i on, r i g h t out
on t h e beach. W e st opped r i g h t about her e. The.y were on t h e
beach j u s t a l i t t l e b i t down her e. Some of t he company was down
t he r e wi t h them. We s t ayed up her e, I remember t hey set us
a lup. I n a l i t t l e b i t we set up our l aager pos i t i on t h a t ni ght .
Q - Did any he l i c opt e r s come i n t h a t day wi t h, medi cal
per sonnel ?
A. I c a n ' t remember them coming i n , no.
Q. D i d you s ee t hos e peopl e you herded down t he r e
g e t t i n g .any medi cal t r eat ment ?
-
A. No, a s a mat t er of f a c t , I d o n ' t know what t hey d i d
- wi t h them.
Q. . Did you see--di d you a l l g e t a VC s us pe c t , pi ck up a
VC s us pect around t he r e ?
A. Yeah, I remember t hey had one.
1
Q. Who had one, t h e 3d Pl at oon?
t
A. I t hi nk 1stPl at oon.
Q. 1st Pl at oon. Did you see any i nt e r r oga t or s or
i n t e r p r e t e r s c o m e i n?
A. N o , I d o n ' t remember any coming i n .
Q. Did you s e e any ARVN per sonnel i n t he r e ?
A. W e l l , t h e t h i r d ni ght we di d have ARVN i n t h e r e wi t h
us. I remember them bei ng t h e r e t he, t h i r d ni ght . I remember
s eei ng them i n t h e chow l i n e .
Q. How many?
A. They must have had--t here must have been about seven
or e i g h t of them. I c a n ' t remember f o r s ur e , b u t I remember t hey
w e r e t he r e . They mi ght have been wi t h us t h e whole oper at i on,
I ' m not s ur e b u t I remember s eei ng them t h a t ni ght . They had
t h e i r own--they had t h e i r own r a di os and t hi ngs , t oo.
Q. , Did you see where t hey w e r e wi t h r ef er ence t o t h e
per i met er ? Where t hey were l oc a t e d, what t hey, w e r e doi ng?
A. For t h a t ni ght ?
Q. Yes.
A. . , I d o n ' t know where t hey set them up a t . I doubt t hey
would have put them on t h e per i met er ; t hey us ua l l y don' t . They
mi ght have, I d o n ' t know. Our pl at oon- - wel l , say t h i s i s our
l aager pos i t i on, t h i s i s t h e beach. Thi s iswhere w e set up a t
( i ndi c a t i ngon Exhi bi t P-168) .
Q. Se t up s out h of t he f i s h pond, t h a t ' s r i g h t . The
gener al l a a ge r a r e a was down i n t h i s a r e a somewhere.
' A. Okay, t h e 1stPl at oon had p a r t al ong t h e beach.
Q. 1stPl at oon was al ong t h e beach?
A. 1st Pl at oon had p a r t al ong t he beach and t hen goi ng
nor t h her e, t hey had t h e per i met er goi ng nor t h a l i t t l e ways.
I
L
FOR OFFICIA& USE ONLY
t hi nk we had. one machinegun s e t up goi ng nor t h, t oo, al ong
wi t h t h e 1st Pl at oon. Then our pl at oon s t a r t e d coming down
t h e w e s t s i d e her e.
Q = . You were facing more o r l e s s t o t h e nor t hwest ?
A. Yeah, I guess t h a t would be. Our pl at oon had one
machinegun on t he end and t h e rest of it was f aci ng t h i s way,
down al ong t h e s i de . Then down al ong her e somewhere t h e 2d
Pl at oon j oi ned i n . I don' t know how it was, b u t I imagine
t hey came around t o t he beach her e and j oi ned up wi t h t h e 1st
Pl at oon.
Q ; They were f aci ng more t o t h e e a s t , 2d Pl at oon?
Yeah.
LTC NOLL: 2d Pl at oon was w e s t .
COL WILSON: I ' m s or r y, t o t he west . Faci ng more t o t h e w e s t
and t hen back al ong t h e beach. Thi s i s nor t h r i g h t her e.
.
A, Oh, t h i s i s nor t h. They' d been f a c i ng more w e s t ,
we' d been-- -
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) Le t ' s run t hrough t h a t agai n. Your
pl at oon wa s from t he beach t o t h e nor t he a s t , f aci ng t h e nor t h-
e a s t . Cor r ect i on, t h a t ' s t he 1st Pl at oon from t h e beach f a c i ng
t h e nor t he a s t .
A. 1st Pl at oon.
Q. . .Your pl at oon w a s f aci ng more o r less t o t h e nor t h.
\
,
'A. Nort hwest .
Q Nort hwest ?
, ; A. * , Ri ght .
Q. And t hen t he 2d Pl at oon was f aci ng t h e w e s t i n t h a t
d i r e c t i o n and coming back around down t o t he beach.
A. 4 Yeah. ['m not s ur e i f t he CP group had some of t h e
beach t h a t l n i g h t o r not , t hey mi ght have. I r e a l l y d o n ' t know
/
what t h e 2d Pl at oon covered up t o t h e 1st Pl at oon t he r e , I ' m
not s ur e ' cause I d i d n ' t g e t down t h a t ar ea.
Q =
What about t he ARVN per s onnel , do you know where
t hey were?
A. No, I don' t know where t hey s t ayed. I t was n' t up
on our end. W e w e r e up he r e and t hey had s t ayed down t h e r e
somewhere; it wasn' t up i n our end of t h e per i met er .
Q
Did you see them t h a t ni ght ? id you see them anymore
a f t e r you s a w them i n t h e chow l i n e ?
A. N o , because I went back t o my p o s i t i o n f aci ng t h e
nor t h w e s t . Had t o d i g my f oxhol e out .
Q.
Did you see any Vietnamese det ai ned i n s i d e t h e
per i met er ?
A. Yeah, I t hi nk we had one I know o f ; t h e r e mi ght have
been two.
.
Q. Male o r femal e?
A. . Male, young man.
Q.
Did you see any a r t i l l e r y f i r e t h a t day?
A. I c a n ' t r e c a l l a r t i l l e r y t h a t day, no.
Q.
Did you see a wounded woman br ought i n wi t h a l e g
al l . s hot up?
4 '
A. No.
Q.
Did you hear of any de t a i ne e s bei ng mi s t r eat ed
t h a t day?
A. The t h i r d day?
Q. Y e s .
A. Y e s .
Q What d i d you hear ?
(ESTERLING) - 4 4
FOR' OFFICIAL USE ONLY
APP T-270
A. Wel l , I hear d t h a t t he one man t hey w e r e mi st reat -
i ng, t hey h i t him. I saw two f el l ows h i t him i n t h e stomach.
Q. Who was t h i s man? Is t h i s t h e one you' r e t a l k i n g
about e a r l i e r ? Is t h i s t h e de t a i ne e t h a t was i n t h e per i met er ?
A. Y e s , t h i s i s t h e same' one t h a t was i n t h e per i met er .
I saw--they were more o r l e s s down on t he ot he r end t h e r e and
t hey w,ere--I c oul dn' t r eqogni ze who was down t he r e . A few
peopl e would. h i t him i n t h e stomach and were h i t t i n g him around.
They would t e l l him what t o do and n a t u r a l l y he woul dn' t know
what t hey were sayi ng. He d i d n ' t do it so t hey h i t him t o
make, him do it o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
0. .Was it p a r t of t h e command group o r who was doi ng
t h i s ?
A. I c oul dn' t say who it was because it was down on
t he ot he r end of t h e per i met er . I ' d never seen some of t he--
I t hi nk, w e l l , t he r eason t hey were doi ng it was because we
got h i t t h a t ni ght and they--a few guys got k i l l e d and t he y
were j u s t t aki ng it o u t on him. Tha t ' s what t hey w e r e more
o r less doi ng.
Q. When di d you s e e t h i s goi ng on?
A. -The t h i r d day.
Q. Tha t ' s when you were h i t t hen?
A. W e w e r e h i t t he- - wel l , l e t ' s s ee; it was t h e
l a s t day out . What ever day t h a t was.
Q. Are you t a l ki ng' a bout t h e day you w e r e l i f t e d out ?
A. Yeah.
Q. What about t h e ni ght bef or e t h a t , t h e day when you set
up your per i met er , you know, when one man was i n t he r e . Did you
see him bei ng mi s t r eat ed t h a t day?
A. Not t h a t day, no.
Q Did you s e e anybody bei ng mi s t r eat ed t h a t day?
(ESTERLING) 4 5
APP T-270
1
Q The tifie you' r e t a l ki ng about t h i s guy wa s rnis-
t r e pt e d w a s t h e f ol l owi ng day a f t e r you had g o t some mor t ar
r ounds, i n ?
A. Yeah, t h e next day, yeah.
Q . Was he t h e onl y de t a i ne e you a l l had t h a t f ol l owi ng
day?
A,. Tha t ' s t h e onl y one I can remember, t he r e mi ght have
been two of them, I c a n ' t remember. I remember he w a s dr es s ed
i n whi t e t h a t day. He had a whi t e s h i r t and whi t e s h o r t s on.
Q What e l s e d i d t hey t e l l you?
A. . Tha t ' s a l l I know. I know t h a t t hey, t h a t - - I
saw hi m. go o u t t o t h e ocean t o wash h i s s h o r t s out . They
mi s t r eat ed him s o bad he messed i n h i s own s hor t s . H e went
o u t t h e r e and washing them o u t hi ms el f . I remember s eei ng
him t o t h a t .
\
Q . Did t hey do anyt hi ng e l s e t o him? Kick him ar ound,
be a t him up?
A. N o , I c a n ' t t hi nk of anyt hi ng else t hey' d done.
: Q. And wa s t h i s - - coul d you t e l l , was t h i s p a r t of
B Company t h a t - di d t h i s o r was it somebody - -
A. (interposing) Thi s was our company t h a t was t h e r e ,
yeah.
Q. B Company per sonnel ?
A. Yeah, because w e were l aager ed t h e r e by our s el ves .
Q. It was n' t by yodr s e l f , d o n ' t f o r g e t you had some ARVN
i n t he r e , you had some - - had peopl e around. I ' m j u s t t r y i n g t o
f i n d o u t i f you know t h a t t he s e were B Company per s onnel .
A. Wel l , - what I ' m s ayi ng i s somebody from whoever w a s
o u t t h e r e t h a t day. I don' t know i f it w a s our company o r not .
I canft s ay t h a t f o r s ur e.
ESTERLING) 46 APP T-270
Q . You d o n ' t know t h a t ?
A. No.
Q
You d i d n ' t r ecogni ze t h e i ndi vi dua l s t h a t were doi ng
t h i s except t h a t he was down - - was he down t oward t h e command
CP ar ea?
A. No, he was below t h a t a ways t oo.
Q.
Wel l , you' r e t a l ki ng about - - sounds t o me l i k e
you' r e t a l ki ng about i n t he 2d Pl at oon a r e a .
A. Yeah, down around t h a t a r e a , t h a t ' s where - -
Q
( I nt er pos i ng)
Down a t t h e f a r end of t he beach?
-
Yeah, r i g h t . A.
&.
So h e ' s down i n t h e 2d Pl at oon ar ea?
A. Down i n t h a t ar ea.
LTC NOLL: What do you mean by t h e f a r end of t h e beach. Are
you t a l k i n g about goi ng back t owards t h e br i dge o r t a l k i n g
about goi ng o u t t owards t he poi nt .
A, Toward t he br i dge.
COL WILSON: Toward t h e br i dge, t o t h e west ?
Ri ght . A.
LTC NOLL: What t i me of day was t h i s ?
A. I t ' d been i n t he morning.
Q
D o you have any knowledge of a VC s us pect bei ng
pi cked- up around 1030 on t h e 19t h?
A. I c a n ' t remember. They mi ght have. I c a n ' t remember
which pl at don it was r i g h t now. One of them went out t h a t day
t o t he v i l l a g e and I t hought t hey were s ear chi ng f or a round
t h a t d i d n ' t go o f f . 1 d o n ' t remember i f t hey br ought anybody
back wi t h, t hem o r not . They wer en' t gone a r e a l l ong t i m e .
APP T-270
Q. What t i m e di d t hey go out ?
A. I d o n ' t know any s p e c i f i c t i m e , it was n' t - - I ' d
s ay around 8:30 o r 9 o' cl ock i n t he morning.
MR WALSH: You s ay you coul d see somebody be a t i ng t h i s de t a i ne e
down t h e beach?
A. Yeah.
Q- About how f a r away were you?
A. Le t s see, it would be about - - pr obabl y about 100
meters down a t t h e ot he r end of t he beach.
Q Did you hear about any ot he r i nt e r r oga t i on t echni ques
such a s i nvol ved us i ng a kni f e? ,
'..
A. N o , I never hear d anyt hi ng about t h a t .
Q. . How about us i ng a f i e l d t el ephone? .
L
A. I ' v e hear d of t h a t , yeah.
Q D i d you kee t h a t done of t h i s ope r a t i on about t h e
4
same t i m e t h a t you s a w t he per son bei ng beat en?
A. No, I d i d n ' t s ee it done, b u t I remember them us i ng
t he phone. I t hi nk, ' I remember s ayi ng, I t hi nk t h a t ' s what made
him m e s s h i s pa nt s t h a t day, us i ng t h e f i e l d t el ephone. I t hi nk
t h a t ' s - - I d i d n ' t t see him use t h e phone b u t I t hi nk t h a t ' s what
it was used as f a r a s - - I ' d f or got t e n about t h a t . I guess t hey' d
put it on and - -
Q You hear d about t h a t , you d i d n ' t see t h a t your s el f ?
A. I hear d about it, b u t I d i d n ' t see i t , no, but I heard
about it.
Q. How about ki cki ng t h e f el l ow, d i d you he a r or see t h a t ,
on t h e ground ki cki ng,
A. No , I d i d n ' t see it.
Q Did you eyer gi ve any cons i der at i on t o r e por t i ng
a ny, of t he t hi ngs t h a t you had hear d o r seen?
A. Yeah,. I gave it cons i der at i on. I don' t know why I
never s a i d anyt hi ng about i t , I t hought about t e l l i n g somebody
about it because I d i d n " t t hi nk it was r i g h t . I t made me f e e l
s i c k t o know t h a t t hi ngs l i k e t h i s had happened.
Q. Who di d you cons i der t a l k i n g t o?
A. W e l l , I t hought I ' d j u s t wr i t e home t o my pa r e nt s
and t e l l them how t h e war was goi ng on over her e.
Q Give any t hought s of t a l ki ng t o any of t h e o f f i c e r s
i n t h e company about i t ?
A. No, I d i d n ' t .
Q. How about your squad l eader s ?
A. No. I t hi nk t h e onl y one I t al ked it over wi t h was
a buddy of mine, HATCH. W e bot h t hought t h e same way.
Q I wonder why you d i d n ' t cons i der t a l k i n g t o one of
t he o f f i c e r s i n t h e company o r one of t h e o f f i c e r s i n t he t a s k
- f or ce or , br i gade. What can you t e l l me about t h a t ? Why d i d n ' t
you cons i der t h a t t o be a f e a s i b l e t hi ng t o do?
A. Wel l , I guess I j u s t l e t it go when I s houl dn' t
have., I d i d n ' t know t h a t t h i s was t h e way war was supposed t o
be f ought . I knew - - I t hought t h e company commander knew
t h e t he s e t hi ngs were goi ng on. I t hought t h e pl at oon l eader - -
it was a l l gener al knowledge t hr ough t h e whole company and I
d i d n ' t s e e any s ens e i n t a l k i n g it over wi t h t h e company. And
t he s e guys w e r e supposed t o be goi ng, I j u s t d i d n ' t t e l l any-
body about it. I probabl y shoul d have.
\
Q . What gave you t h e i mpr essi on t h a t t h e o f f i c e r s knew
about i t ?
A. W e l l , not hi ng was bei ng h i d from them.
Q . I can s e e what you mean by t h e - -
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Y e s , I mean l i k e you' r e t a l k i n g about
t h e i nc i de nt of a de t a i ne e bei ng beat en t h a t morning. H e coul d
have s t ood .up and s ee t h a t t h a t happened.
, FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Q A r e you t a l ki ng about MICHLES now.
A. Capt ai n MICHLES, yes, o r anybody coul d have. I mean
nobody was hi di ng. I t was an open beach.
Q. How about t h e - - l i k e you' d hear d about t h e 1st Pl at oonf s
a c t i v i t i e s on t h e f i r s t day. I know you d i d n ' t have f i r s t ha nd
knowledge of t h a t but Capt ai n MICHLES wasn' t t h e r e i n t h a t a r e a
where t h e 1st Pl at oon wa s .
A. No . I don' t know why I d i d n ' t say anyt hi ng about it.
I t hought about it but I never di d. Ther e' s no r eas on f o r not
s ayi ng anyt hi ng about it.
Q Did you g e t any i n s t r u c t i o n i n t he cour se of your
t r a i n i n g about t h e I G , t h e I ns pect or Gener al , what h i s f unct i on
i s, how i t ' s pos s i bl e f o r a s o l d i e r t o go t o t h e I G and t e l l him
t hi ngs t h a t he ' s concerned about and have it i nve s t i ga t e d wi t h-
out h i s commander bei ng ne c e s s a r i l y i nvol ved?
A. Yeah. I know you coul d go t o t he I G , yeah, r i g h t . CT
Ic
Q I n t h e t i me you we r e i n Vietnam d i d you e ve r hear
L
of anybody goi ng t o t h e I G about anyt hi ng?
A. J u s t f o r t hi ngs i n t h e st at es. Not hi ng over s eas i n
~ i e t n a m. I never hear d anyt hi ng about t h a t .
Q You never hear d of any s o l d i e r i n your company o r i n
any ot he r company goi ng t o t h e I G and t e l l i n g t h e I G t h a t t hi ngs
were being done t h a t he d i d n ' t t hi nk w e r e r i g h t ?
A. . , Not over i n Vietnam, no.
LTC NOLL: Is t h e r e any evi dence t h a t t h e company wa s psyched
up f o r t h i s oper at i on?
A. No. I f t hey wefe anyt hi ng t hey were more nervous
about goi ng on t h e oper at i on.
Q Thi s was si mpl y l a i d o u t t h a t you w e r e goi ng back i n t o
t h a t ar ea?
A. Going back i n t o t h e a r e a , r i g h t . There mi ght have been
some peopl e, per s onal l y, t h a t way from t h e f i r s t t i m e but t h e pa r t
.FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
of t h e company t h a t was o u t t h e r e , I d o n ' t know. Ove r a l l I d o n ' t
t hi nk t h e company was i n t h a t s t a t e of mind.
COL WILSON: Do you have any knowledge of an i n v e s t i g a t i o n or
i n q u i r y t h a t was made of this o p e r a t i o n whi l e you w e r e s t i l l
i n Vietnam?
A. No, none a t a l l .
Q Anybody e ve r que s t i on you o r anybody you know about
t h e o p e r a t i o n ? Back a t Upt i ght o r Do t t i e ? Any o f f i c e r s c o me
o u t t h e r e and a s k some q u e s t i o n s about i t ?
A. Nobody.
Q. Did you e ve r he a r any rumors - - w e l l you d i d ment i on
a l r e a d y t h a t you he a r d C Company t a l k i n g a bout k i l l i n g a bunch
of pe opl e over- i n t h a t v i l l a g e .
A. Y e s .
Q. Ci v i l i a n s o r - -
.A. ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) Yeah, j u s t by t h e few peopl e I wal ked
by, mys el f .
Q. Yeah, d i d you h e a r any more a bout t h a t l a t e r , a f t e r
you g o t back t o t h e f i r e ba s e , a f t e r t h e e x e r c i s e , a f t e r t h e
o p e r a t i o n was ove r ?
A. No, I d i d n ' t he a r a nyt hi ng else about it.
Q. J u s t t h a t one t i m e i n t h e f i e l d i s t h e l a s t t i m e
you hear d of i t ?
A. Y e s .
Q Did you r un i n t o C Company pe r s onne l anymore b e f o r e
Task For ce Bar ker was d i s e s t a b l i s h e d ?
A. W e mi ght have r un i n t o them exchangi ng f i r e ba s e s . I
d o n ' t r e c a l l havi ng an o p e r a t i o n i n t h e f i e l d wi t h them a f t e r
t h a t . Ther e mi ght have, I d o n ' t remember.
Q. But you d i d n ' t he a r any more about it from anybody?
A. No.
Q. Did you hear any rumors a f t e r t h a t about B or C Company
bei ng involved any, ot her t han what you heard. From anybody, di d
you hear anyt hi ng on t h i s s ubj ect ?
A. No.
Q - Were you ever t ol d not t o di s cus s t h i s s ubj e c t of
k i l l i n g a bunch of people?
A. From t he t i m e t h a t t h a t happened t he next t i m e I re-
member it bei ng brought up a t a l l was when I s a w t he f r ont page
of t he newspaper.
Q
When you got her e back her e i n t he s t a t e s ? Do you
know i f t he r e was any problem of mari j uana i n your uni t ?
A. ' I guess some people s a i d t h a t t her e was. I had never
seen anybody usi ng it. They warned everybody a ga i ns t usi ng it.
They t o l d them - - w e l l , t hey j u s t t ol d them t hey coul dn' t use it.
They wer en' t allowed t o have it t her e. But I don' t know i f t h i s
h
'k'
had an i nf l uence on anybody over t he r e o r not . I know some guys - -*
I ' ve heard people t a l k l i k e t hey wanted t o ge t ahol d of it, but id 4
I've never seen anybody wi t h it myself.
Q. You don' t know whether it was ever t aken out on oper-
a t i ons o r anyt hi ng?
A. No, I woul dn' t know. I don' t t hi nk t he r e w a s any. I
di dn' t know anybody i n our pl at oon ever used it, i n t he 3d Pl at oon.
Q. Did you have a camera on t h i s oper at i on?
A. No, not on t h a t one.
Q Did you know anybody t h a t di d?
A. No, I don' t t hi nk so.
Q. And you d i d n ' t s ee a photographer?
A* No, I di dn' t s ee ' any?
Q. And you' ve descr i bed a l l you know about any people
t or t ur e d o r ml s t r cat cd , t l ~eonc? man t hcr c i n' Lllc! per i . nw L e r , ?
A. Yeah, t h a t ' s a l l I ever saw.
Q
Yo.u d i d n ' t hear anyt hi ng e l s e bes i des t h a t on m i s -
t r eat ment of det ai nees ?
A. No.
MR WALSH: Do you remember r ecei vi ng an or der a s you were
moving out on your t h i r d day, a s you were moving up t o t he
ar ea where you rounded up a l l t he peopl e, do you remember
r ecei vi ng an or der t o s t op t he bur ni ng of hoot ches? That
was a change i n t h e oper at i on from what t he company had been
doi ng t h e pr evi ous day.
A. Wel l , now you s a i d it, I t hi nk t he r e was because
we d i d n ' t t ouch anyt hi ng. We d i d n ' t even damage anyt hi ng
t h a t day, w e j u s t went t hrough and gat her ed a l l t h e peopl e.
W e sear ched b u t t h a t ' s about a l l . We d i d n ' t do anyt hi ng t h a t
day.
Q. You don' t remember t h i s or der bei ng passed?
A. I c a n ' t remember t he or der .
COL WILSON: Do you have any f u r t h e r t est i mony t h a t mi ght he l p
us i n t h e cas e?
A. No, t h a t ' s about a l l I can remember about it, except
f o r t he ni ght w e got h i t on t h e beach, t h a t ' s r e a l c l e a r i n my
mind. I mean I t hi nk it was t h e t h i r d ni ght we got mor t ar ed.
Q Ri ght , t h a t ' s when you had Chose c a s u a l t i e s .
A. Yeah.
Q. MI LUS was k i l l e d .
A. MILUS was k i l l e d and anot her f el l ow di e d a f t e r he g o t
t aken i n .
Q. Who was t h a t t h a t di ed l a t e r ?
A. I c a n ' t t hi nk of h i s name. I hel ped c a r r y him away
ove r t o where t h e h e l i c o p t e r was. H e hadn' t been wi t h us t o o l ong.
H e came o v e r as a r epl acement .
Q HARTSON, MOSFORD?
A. MOSSFORD, y e s , he w a s k i l l e d . And a few o t h e r s w e r e
.wounded too, I d o n ' t remember which ones t hey w e r e .
Q And d i d you see t h e d u s t o f f come i n t h a t n i g h t and
pi c k them up?
A. Yeah.
Q. Do you remember i f t he y were e s c o r t e d or n o t by
gunshi ps?
A. I d o n ' t remember i f t he y w e r e e s c o r t e d or n o t b u t
I remember t h e guns hi ps w e r e t h e r e t h a t n i g h t . They f i r e d f o r
q u i t e a whi l e . They k e p t coming back ove r t h e area and f i r i n g
and t r a c e r s w e r e goi ng up and down too a t t h e same t i m e .
QI They w e r e f i r i n g back?
A. ~ h &w e r e f i r i n g back.
Q. Ret ur ni ng f i r e ?
A. Ret ur ni ng f i r e .
Q A t t h e t i m e you g o t t h e mor t ar f i r e w a s any s mal l
arms f i r e coming i n ?
A. You mean coming i n wi t h mor t ar f i r e ?
Q Yeah.
A. No, it was j u s t mor t ar f i r e by i t s e l f . W e r e t u r n e d
f i r e . I t h i n k w e r e t ur ne d f i r e and t he y mi ght have f i r e d a few
s h o t s back b u t t h a t was a bout a l l . They t ook o f f p r e t t y f a s t .
I wa s l ooki ng r i g h t a t it when it went o f f .
Q. How f a r away was i t ?
A. I t wa s n' t more t ha n about 50 meters from t h e pe r i me t e r .
(ESTERLING) 54
APP T-270
Q 50 met er s ?
A. I t wa s n ' t t oo f a r . 50 no more t ha n- 100. I t
wasn' t f a r a t a l l .
Q. Do you know whet her t he y found t h a t mor t a r p o s i t i o n
t h e n e x t day?
A. They found where t hey set it up a t . I t was eas y f o r
them t o g e t becaus e t he y w e r e - - we l l t he y b u i l d what t he y c a l l
mounds ove r t h e r e and t he y j u s t sneak up from one t o t h e o t h e r
u n t i l t he y g o t up p r e t t y c l o s e and set it up.
LTC NOLL: The a r t i l l e r y r e t u r n f i r e t h a t n i g h t ?
A. Yeah, t h e a r t i l l e r y r e t ur ne d f i r e . They bombed it o u t
p r e t t y good.
COL WILSON: Thi s f i r e you t a l k e d a bout t h a t n i g h t , t h e ai r - gr ound
f i r e , w a s t h a t from fi xed-wi ng a i r c r a f t o r h e l i c o p t e r ?
A. He l i c opt e r gunshi p.
Q And you s a y t h a t t h e r e was a gr ound- t o- ai r f i r e a l s o ?
A. Yeah. They f i r e d back a t them a few t i m e s . You
c oul d see t h e i r t r a c e r s goi ng up a t them.
Q. Where was t h e i r f i r e coming from? Ext reme e a s t , c e n t r a l
p a r t of t he , . pe ni ns ul a ?
Nor t hwest .
Q Nor t hwest ?
A. Nor t hwest , s t r a i g h t up t h e pe ni ns ul a where we came
from t h a t day.
Q - W e l l . , you came from t h e s out h.
A. No, w e came from t h e nor t hwes t . W e came from up he r e .
Q Oh, I see, a f t e r you - - you mean whi l e you w e r e
s e a r c hi ng?
A. Yeah, where we w e r e s e a r c hi ng.
(EASTERLING) 55
APP T-270
Q The a r e a where you s e a r c he d i s where t h e f i r e came
from?
MR WALSN: I t would be t h e n o r t h e a s t .
COL WILSON: Nor t he a s t .
A. I t came from t h a t d i r e c t i o n .
MR WALSH: Going back t o t h e second day when you s t a y e d ar ound
t h e b r i d g e a r e a when t h e o t h e r pl a t oons went s out h. DO you
remember sometime dur i ng t h e day somebody f i n d i n g or b r i n g i n g
i n a wounded woman, r e q u e s t i n g a dus t of f f o r h e r ?
A. I c a n ' t remember i f it was on t h a t o p e r a t i o n b u t I
remember one o p e r a t i o n a woman came i n . I c a n ' t p l a c e it wi t h
t h a t one t hough. I c a n' t r e me mb e r .
Q. Do you remember i f it w a s HOOTON who found he r ?
A. No, I woul dn' t know.
LTC NOLL: On t h e second day when t h e rest o f t h e company was
wor ki ng s out h, d i d you he a r any r i f l e f i r e o r de mol i t i ons
coming from t h e s o u t h t h a t day?
A. I c o u l d n ' t s a y f o r s u r e .
COL WILSON: M r . ESTERLING, I 'd l i k e t o r e q u e s t t h a t you do n o t
d i s c u s s your t es t i mony i n t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n wi t h o t h e r s i nc l udi ng
o t h e r wi t n e s s e s e xc e pt a s you may be r e qui r e d t o do so be f or e
a compet ent j u d i c i a l o r l e g i s l a t i v e body. And we a p p r e c i a t e
your coming, we a p p r e c i a t e you he l p.
The h e a r i n g w i l l be r e c e s s e d.
(The h e a r i n g r e c e s s e d a t 1625 hour s , 29 J anuar y 1970. )
APP T-270
<k'
!
WITNESS: FIELDS, Al f r ed
'DATE OF TESTIiVIONY : 30 January 1970
COUNSEL: None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: F i r s t Squad, Thi r d
Pl at oon, B/4/3.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d t r a i n i n g i n t he handl i ng of pr i s one r s ,
b u t none on t he l egal i t y of or der s (pgs. 4 , 5) . The former
was gi ven i n bot h Hawaii and Vietnam ( pgs. 4 , 5 ) . H e
coul d n o t s p e c i f i c a l l y r e c a l l r ecei vi ng any i nf or mat i on
on t he r e por t i ng of mi st r eat ment of pr i s oner s and noncombatants
(pg. 5)
2. OPERATIONAL PLANS AND BRIEFINGS.
Gener al pl an of t h e oper at i on.
The wi t nes s t e s t i f i e d t h a t an o f f i c e r t o l d them
t h a t t hey would be goi ng on a combat a s s a u l t . However,
a f t e r g e t t i n g i n t o t h e f i e l d t h e wi t nes s r ecei ved word
-4%
t h a t t h e pur pose of t he mi ssi on was changed t o s ear ch and
des t r oy. The wi t nes s f e l t t he change w a s or der ed by
Li eut enant Col onel BARKER, al t hough he r ecei ved t h e or de r
from h i s pl at oon s er geant (pg. 6 ) . The word was t o des t r oy
ever yt hi ng; hoot ches, l i ve s t oc k, f oods t uf f s (pg. 7 ) . Thi s
change came a f t e r t he company had r ecei ved c a s u a l t i e s
(pg. 7 ) .
The wi t nes s a s s e r t e d t h a t when t he or der came down
he under st ood it t o mean t h a t peopl e w e r e also t o be k i l l e d .
No one quest i oned t h i s (pg. 8) . They were t o l d t h a t VC
w e r e i n t h e a r e a (py. 8) .
2
(FIELDS) P
SUM APP T-283
CONFIDENTIAL
SUMAPP T-283
t he u n i t sear ched and burned a few hoot ches i n t h e area
(pg. 26) . H e saw no bodi es i n t h a t a r e a ( pgs. 26, 27) .
He coul d r e c a l l no he l i c opt e r s coming i n t h a t day
(pgs. 28, 29). He hear d t h a t t h e f i r s t pl at oon had done
a l o t of k i l l i n g and "dest r oyed i ns t e a d of sear ched"
(pg. 29) .
c. Ac t i v i t i e s on 18 and 19 March.
The wi t nes s r e c a l l e d roundi ng up Vietnamese i n
the v i l l a g e s near t h e beach (pgs. 33, 34) . H e remembered
ARVN's i nt e r r oga t i ng some of t h e c i vi l i a ns (pg. 34). H e
coul d r e c a l l no det ai nees o r ARVN' s i n t h e ni ght l a a ge r
pos i t i on (pg. 35) . H e s t a t e d t h a t i n a conver s at i on wi t h
MILUS, t he l a t t e r had t o l d him of s e t t i n g up a machinegun
and s hoot i ng s e ve r a l Vietnamese i n a v i l l a g e (pgs. 30, 37) .
MILUS i ndi c a t e d t h a t he was or der ed t o s hoot anyt hi ng t h a t
moved (pg. 31). Most of t h e rumors of t h e f i r s t pl at oon
t h a t day i nvol ved MILUS' a c t i ons ( pgs. 31, 32). H e r e-
c a l l e d t h e mor t ar a t t a c k and r ecei vi ng s mal l a r m s f i r e
t h a t ni ght ( pg. 36) . MILUSwas k i l l e d by a mor t ar
round (pg. 36) . The wi t nes s r ecount ed a medevac pi cki ng
up wounded and havi ng t o us e i t s l i g h t s t o l oc a t e t he
wounded (pg. 3 6 ) . The next morning t he wi t nes s hear d of
det ai nees bei ng beat en (pg. 37) .
4. KNOWLEDGE OF AN I NCI DENT.
The wi t nes s t o l d of hear i ng about a l i e ut e na nt us i ng t h e
wi r es of a f i e l d t el ephone t o i n t e r r o g a t e det ai nees . H e
a l s o hear d of C Company goi ng i n t o a v i l l a g e and k i l l i n g
peopl e f o r no r eason (pg. 4 1 ) . One of t h e men i n B Company,
EBI NGER, complained of t he whol esal e k i l l i n g t o o f f i c e r s b u t
t o no a v a i l . H e t hr eat ened t o wr i t e h i s congressman ( pgs. 43,
4 4 ) .
a . Use of mar i j uana.
The wi t nes s t e s t i f i e d t h a t q u i t e a few t r oops
smoked mar i j uana, but i t was not a problem (pg. 42) .
b
(FIELDS) 3 SUM APP T-283
CONFIDENTIAL
(FIELDS1
SUMAPP T-283
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
EXEIIBITS
EXHIBIT
NUMBER DESCRIPTION NOTES
' .
PAGES
1
MACVCard"NineRules"
Withad seen. 4
MACVCard"TheEnemyIn
I
Withadnotseen. 1 4
I
M-81
Instructionstowitness
Read by witness.
I
1
P-18 MiscellaneousScene
Witrecognized. 15
-
P-20l~iscellaneous Scene
GIbutnotthe
Witrecognizeda
16
ARVN.
Witrecognizeda I
I
P-22
MiscellaneousScene GI. 1 17
Witdidnotre- I
Witrecognized I
- 3
MiscellaneousScene
noneofthe
17
Vietnamese.
Witdidnotre-
cosnize.
17
(FIELDS)
SUMAPPT-283
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
(The he a r i ng r econvened a t 1100 hour s , 30 J anuar y
1970. )
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng named per s ons are p r e s e n t : COL
WILSON, MR WALSH, LTC NOLL, and MAJ THOMAS.
The n e x t wi t ne s s i s M r . Al f r e d FIELDS.
(MR FIELDS was c a l l e d as a wi t n e s s , w a s sworn,
and t e s t i f i e d as f ol l ows : )
Pl e a s e s t a t e your f u l l name, oc c upa t i on, and
r e s i de nc e .
A. Al f r e d FIELDS, Tol edo, Ohi o, and oc c upa t i on i s
count y l aborer.
COL WILSON: M r . FIELDS, was t h e r e a not he r FIELDS i n B
Company b e s i d e s you?
A. No, si r . I t h i n k t h e o t h e r FIELDS w a s i n A Company.
Q . You d o n ' t know of a Fr a n k l i n FIELDS?
A. NO, si r .
Q. M r . FIELDS, d i d you have a chance t o r e a d t h e
i nf or ma t i on t h a t was handed o u t t o you ( Ex h i b i t M-81) ?
A. - Y e s , si r .
Q - Did you r e a d t h e s e c t i o n where it e xpl a i ne d what
t hi s i n t e r v i e w team w a s and how w e i n t e n d t o go a bout t h e
q u e s t i o n s ?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q A l l r i g h t . F i r s t , l e t m e s a y t h a t t h e r e are t h r e e
members of t h i s t e a m : M r . WALSH, who i s a c i v i l i a n a t t o r n e y
. des i gnat ed by t h e Se c r e t a r y of t h e Army t o assi st Gener al PEERS;
Col onel NOLL; and mys el f . W e have a u t h o r i t y from Gener al PEERS
t o conduct t h e i nt e r vi e ws . Ther e may be ot her . member s from
(FIELDS) 1 APP T-283
Gener al PEERS' boar d t h a t w i l l wal k i n h e r e and as k q u e s t i o n s ,
i t ' s p o s s i b l e , i n whi ch c a s e i f t h e r e ' s a q u e s t i o n i n your mind
I ' l l i d e n t i f y them. Thi s team ha s no a u t h o r i t y t o make f i n d i n g s
o r recommendat i ons; i t ' s s t r i c t l y wi t hi n t h e p r e r o g a t i v e of
Gener al PEERS, W e mer el y i n t e r r o g a t e and i n t e r v i e w peopl e f o r
him. Have you di s c us s e d t h i s o p e r a t i o n wi t h anyone from Task
For ce Bar ker s i n c e you r e t ur ne d from Vietnam?
A. . Do you mean h e r e or a t home?
Si nc e you g o t back from Vi et nam, anywhere i n t h e
Q.
S t a t e s .
A. A t home.
Q With someone from t h e company?
A. Oh, no.
Q Nobody from t h e u n i t ?
A. No .
Q - ,
What was your assi gnment on 16 March 1968?
A. I d i d n ' t h e a r t h e q u e s t i o n , si r .
Q Your dut y assi gnment . Which pl a t oon w e r e you i n ?
3d Pl a t oon.
Do you remember t h e squad?
F i r s t squad, I t h i n k it was.
Do you remember your squad l e a d e r ?
SGT HATTAWAY.
SGT HATTAWAY?
Y e s , si r.
Do you know whi ch o p e r a t i o n w e ' r e i n t e r e s t e d i n ?
My La i .
(FIELDS) APP T-283
Q. My Lai , r i ght . Do you remember t h i s operat i on?
A. Not t oo much of it. Only t hi ng I remember about
it is something about Pi nkvi l l e.
Q.
Do you remember when MI LUS was ki l l e d?
A. Yes, sir.
Q That ' s t he oper at i on we' re t a l ki ng about. Lieu-
t enant COCHRAN wa s ki l l e d?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. That ' s t he oper at i on. You've got t he t i m e f i xed
i n your mind?
Q*
ar ea more
Q
time your
Q
leader?
Q.
l eader ?
(FIELDS)
Yes.
That ' s t he main t hi ng, cause you' ve been i n t o t h i s
t han once, probably.
Y e s , sir.
We're t a l ki ng about 16 March. A l l r i g h t , a t t h a t
squad l eader w a s Sergeant HATTAWAY?
Yes, sir.
D i d you have a pl at oon l eader or an act i ng pl at oon
Y e s , si r, but I don' t remember h i s name.
NO, sir.
You don' t remember him?
I remember h i m, but I don' t think--
( I nt er pos i ng) You don' t t hi nk he was act i ng pl at oon
NO , sir.
3
APP T-283
9 A l l r i g h t . I want t o show you a coupl e of e xhi bi t s .
Exhi bi t M-2 is e n t i t l e d , "Nine Rul es. " I t ' s a f a c s i mi l e of a
MACV car d, f r o n t and back. Have you ever seen t h a t e xhi bi t ?
A. Yes I si r .
Q Where' d you see i t ?
A. I n Chu La i .
Q =
Did you have one, o r di d you j u s t s ee i t ?
A. I d i d n ' t have one. I s a w it.
Q- The next e xhi bi t i s M- 3 . I t ' s e n t i t l e d , "The Enemy
I n Your Hands," a f acs i mi l e. Have you seen t h a t ?
A. NO, sir.
Q You haven' t seen t h a t one?
A. No, si r.
Q.
Do you recal l ever r ecei vi ng i n s t r u c t i o n s on t he
t r eat ment of noncombatants and pr i s oner s o r t he mi st r eat ment
of them and t he consequences of such t r eat ment ?
A. Y e s , s i r , we had r ecei ved i n s t r u c t i o n s .
Q -
Do you remember where you got t h a t i ns t r uc t i on?
A. Ri ght a f t e r we got i n t o Vietnam t hey t ook us t o
someplace l i k e a t r a i n i n g c e nt e r bef or e we went out i n t he
f i e l d , and t hey t o l d us how we were supposed t o t r e a t t he
enemy and s o f or t h.
Q - Did you go t o Vietnam wi t h t he 11t h Bri gade?
A. Y e s I sir.
Q. Back i n Hawaii, wa s anyt hi ng s a i d concer ni ng t he
l e g a l i t y of or der s : whet her an or de r t o mistreat a pr i s one r
wa s a l e g a l or de r , anyt hi ng t o t h a t e f f e c t ?
A. No, sir.
(FIELDS) 4
APP T-283
Q. You d o n ' t remember anyt hi ng l i k e t ha t ?
A. No , sir.
Q But you di d r ecei ve some t r a i n i n g on how you were
supposed t o t r e a t pr i s oner s a f t e r you got i n t o Vietnam?
A .. Y e s , si r.
Q What t ype of t r a i n i n g was t h i s ? What di d t hey s ay?
A. They t o l d us how we were supposed t o , you know, try
and t a l k t o them, o r i f you c oul dn' t t a l k t o them, t o hol d
them t h e r e u n t i l somebody coul d come and t r a n s l a t e , you know.
Q Yes.
A. O r t a ke them t o our CO o r somet hi ng l i k e t h i s . And
t hey s a i d not t o be a t on them and s t u f f l i k e ki ck them around,
push them around.
Q And t h i s wa s a t t he t r a i n i n g c e nt e r a f t e r you got
there?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Anybody ever say anyt hi ng about r e por t i ng t he mi s -
t r eat ment of pr i s one r s o r noncombatants o r det ai nees ?
A. They mi ght have, sir.
Q A l l r i g h t , l e t ' s go t o t he day of t he 15t h of March,
pos s i bl y t he morning of t he 16t h of March, j u s t p r i o r t o t he
combat a s s a u l t , when Li eut enant COCHRAN and s e ve r a l men were
wounded t h a t morning, and t hi nk i f you can as t o who br i e f e d
you or who t o l d you t h a t t h i s oper at i on w a s coming of f and what
you w e r e t o l d about i t , what you were supposed t o do, and s o
f or t h. You w e r e back a t f i r e base Upt i ght .
A. I t wa s a l i e ut e na nt . I can p i c t u r e h i s f a c e , but
1
I c a n ' t p i c t u r e h i s name. I c a n ' t q u i t e r e c a l l , si r , but any-
way, he ' s t he one who br i e f e d us on it.
Q. You say you were br i e f e d by an o f f i c e r ?
A: y e s , s i r .
.Q What w e r e you t ol d?
A. That we had a combat a s s a u l t t o go out on.
Q D i d t hey gi ve you t he t i mes and t he equipment you
w e r e supposed t o t ake and t h i s s o r t of t hi ng?
A. Y e s , si r , equi pment , and t hey t o l d us what t o have
r eady for it.
Q
What or de r s were you gi ven r egar di ng t he de s t r uc t i on
of houses and v i l l a g e hoot ches and v i l l a g e s i n t h i s ar ea?
A. W e l l , t he or der s t hat - - i f I ' m not mi st aken, t he
or der s that t hey gave us when w e f i r s t went i n t h e r e wa s t r y
and gat her up a l l t he peopl e, and I t hi nk a f t e r a few of our
peopl e got h u r t , t hen we came down wi t h s ear ch and des t r oy.
They said t o de s t r oy ever yt hi ng t h a t was i n t h e r e , j u s t bur n
t he hoot ches and s t u f f l i k e t h a t .
Q Now,
you say you wer en' t t o l d t h i s , s ear ch and
des t r oy wa s not t he mi ssi on when you l e f t t he f i r e base?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Now, who changed t h i s mi ssi on? Do you remember?
A. I t hi nk w e had a col onel by t he name of Col onel
ADKINS a t that t i m e . It--it was Col onel BARKER who changed
it. 7
Q Did you hear anyt hi ng t h a t he s a i d , o r how di d you
know t h a t he changed i t ?
A. No, I d i d n ' t hear anyt hi ng t h a t he s a i d , but it
came back down, and I t hi nk t he pl at oon l e a de r t o l d t he pl at oon
s er geant , and t he pl at oon s er geant t o l d us.
0. Who wa s your pl at oon s er geant ?
A. I don' t remember--but he ' s dead now, anyway, t he
one t h a t I had.
( FI ELDS ) APP T-283
Q Do you remember what t i me t h i s was?
A. I d o n ' t remember t he exact t i me.
Q And t hen you were t o l d t o des t r oy ever yt hi ng?
A. Y e s .
Q. When you say ever yt hi ng, do you mean houses--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Hootches , houses, and anyt hi ng l i k e
t h a t , you know, anyt hi ng t h a t t hey had on ( i naudi bl e- - 1 t o 3
words) .
Q. 'What about f oodst ock?
A. They s a i d des t r oy t h a t , t oo.
Q How about l i ve s t oc k?
A. Also.
Q And t he pl at oon s er geant t o l d you t h i s ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Did he t e l l your squad t h i s , o r how d i d he g e t
the i nf or mat i on out ?
A. I t hi nk he t o l d t he whole squad a t t h a t t i m e .
Q Did he t a l k t o t he pl at oon o r j u s t a squad?
A. The whole pl at oon.
Q. Was t h i s a f t e r the--you ment i oned t h a t t h i s was
af t er you r ecei ved c a s ua l t i e s ?
A. Yes, si r.
Q There w a s not hi ng s a i d i n t he b r i e f i n g back a t t he
f i r e base about t he de s t r uc t i on of houses and l i ve s t oc k and s o
f or t h?
A. NO, si r.
Q What about i nha bi t a nt s ? Was anyt hi ng s a i d about
what you were t o do wi t h peopl e of t he v i l l a g e a f t e r t h i s
or der wa s changed? You s a i d bef or e t h a t t hey w e r e supposed
t o be gat her ed up. How about when t h i s or der was changed?
Any s p e c i f i c i n s t r u c t i o n s ?
A. W e l l , what t hey had t o l d me, t hey s a i d des t r oy
ever yt hi ng. When it come down wi t h us t o des t r oy, not s ear ch
and des t r oy, t hey s a i d j u s t des t r oy ever yt hi ng, . peopl e, t oo.
Q You under st ood t h a t t o mean peopl e, t oo?
A. Y e s .
Q. Did anybody e l a bor a t e on t hes e i n s t r u c t i o n s ? Did
your squad l e a de r say anyt hi ng?
A. No, he d i d n ' t say anyt hi ng.
Q- Anybody ques t i on t h i s or der t o k i l l peopl e?
A. No.
9 W e l l , bef or e you l e f t , what was t he enemy s i t u a t i o n
as it w a s depi ct ed by t he per son who br i e f e d you?
A. What wa s t h a t agai n, s i r ?
Q. What was t he enemy s i t u a t i o n t h a t you underst ood
i n t he ar ea? What were you t o l d about t he enemy?
A. The way t h a t t hey t o l d us , t h a t t he enemy was sup-
posedl y s t i l l i n t h e r e and we was supposed t o go i n t he r e and
g e t them out, and t h a t was it. And t hey s a i d gat her up a l l
t he peopl e, t hey t o l d us t o gat her up a l l t h e peopl e, and
t h a t wa s what we were supposed t o do.
'Q Y e s . Were you t o l d what enemy u n i t was i n t her e?
A. oni y t hi ng t hey t o l d us was VC was supposed t o be
i n t he r e .
Q - Had you been i n t h i s a r e a bef or e?
8
APP T-283
A. y e s , si r .
Q.
Was t h e r e a nyt hi ng i n your mind when you l e f t t h e
f i r e ba s e t h a t morni ng about goi ng i n t o an o p e r a t i o n i n Pi nk-
v i l l e a r e a t h a t was d i f f e r e n t from an o p e r a t i o n somewhere el se
i n your normal AO?
A. No, si r.
Q-
You d i d n ' t t h i n k anyt hi ng a bout i t ?
A. W e l l , I t hought about n o t coming back. That was
the onl y t hi ng.
Q.
Do you do t h a t ever yt i me you go o u t of t h e f i r e
bas e i n the morni ng? Do you have t h e same f e e l i n g about t h e
other p l a c e s you' d go t o ?
A. No, si r, j u s t t h a t one.
Q.
Ther e w a s a d i f f e r e n c e , t hen.
A. Y e s , si r.
Q.
The r e w a s a d i f f e r e n c e i n t h e name " Pi n k v i l l e " as
t o other a r e a s t h a t you ope r a t e d i n ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q- What ' s t h e d i f f e r e n c e ?
A. Ther e, i t ' s more booby t r a p s i n t h a t a r e a and more
peopl e g e t h u r t ever y t i m e w e go ove r t h e r e : somebody g e t s
h u r t ove r i n t h a t a r e a . I n o t h e r a r e a s w e mi ght go i n t o , we
mi ght spend 2 or 3 days and come back, somet hi ng l i k e t h a t :
nobody woul d g e t h u r t , b u t as soon as w e ' d go over t h e r e some-
bodygd g e t h u r t .
a.
Thi s was common knowledge t hr oughout t h e u n i t , i s
t hat c o r r e c t ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q
DO you know what your pl a t oon w a s supposed t o do
a f t e r it l anded?
9 APP T-283
A. Not exact l y, sir.
Q Do you know what t he 1st and 2d Pl at oons were
supposed t o do?
I t hi nk they were supposed t o go i n and search.
Q. Do you know where?
A. I n t he vi l l a ge s .
And t he 3d Pl at oon was supposed t o do what?
A. I ' m not s ur e, but I t hi nk t he 3d Pl at oon was
supposed t o be a bl ocki ng f or ce.
Q How about your squad. Was it given any s pe c i a l
mission?
A. NO, si r , not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q. Le t ' s go t o t he oper at i on i t s e l f which took pl ace
on t he morning of t he 16t h. Did you r ecei ve any f i r e pr i or
t o l andi ng? Your hel i copt er ?
A. Umm, I t hi nk so.
Q . Did you r ecei ve any f i r e a f t e r l andi ng?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q From where?
A. From--well, a f t e r we had landed, it came from out
of t he brush somewhere.
Q. You coul dn' t see where it was coming from?
A. No, sir.
Q We' l l ge t a photograph i n a few minutes and maybe
you can gi ve us t he di r e c t i on it came from. ,How f a r di d it
sound l i k e the f i r e was?
- A. Oh, 50 t o 60 met ers.
(FIELDS) 10
APP T-283
Q. Met er s?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Do you recal l i f you were on t h e f i r s t o r t h e second
l i f t goi ng i n ?
A. I wa s on t h e second l i f t .
Q Second l i f t ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q- Were your doorgunners f i r i n g ?
A. Ye$, sir.
Q. hey were?
A. Y e s , sir. They us ua l l y d i d f i r e be f or e we' d go i n .
Q . But you g o t t r oops on t he ground now i f you' r e on
the second l i f t .
A. Y e s , si r. W e l l , t he y' d us ua l l y know, when we'd go
i n , they'd u s u a l l y be i n a c e r t a i n p l a c e s o t h e gunner s would
fire around i n s t e a d of what ever p o s i t i o n we were i n .
Q. Were you f i r i n g when you l e f t t h e a i r c r a f t ?
No, si r.
Was anybody?'
No , sir, j u s t t h e doorgunners.
Q. You s een any gunshi ps?
A. There wa s two of them.
Q. What we r e t hey doi ng?
A. They were f i r i n g r oc ke t s .
Q Where?
A. I n f r o n t of us. I n f r o n t of our p o s i t i o n s .
Q- Nr. FIELDS, we' r e goi ng t o t a ke a c h a r t o r a map
or i e nt a t i on. I t ' l l t ake a few mi nut es, I t hi nk w e ' l l j u s t
concern B Company, W e ' l l t a ke a few mi nut es and o r i e n t you
on B Company, and t hen walk t hr ough t he 4 days of t he oper-
a t i on.
(Witness wa s gi ven a map or i e nt a t i on. )
MR WALSH: I ' d l i k e t o t ake you back t o t he b r i e f i n g f o r a
mi nut e, and ask you t o s ay, s t a t e agai n, j u s t what you r e c a l l
about what your i n s t r u c t i o n s were about peopl e t h a t you might
encount er i n t he v i l l a g e .
A. W e l l , t he i n s t r u c t i o n s t h a t t hey gave us w e r e j u s t
t o go i n and s ear ch o u t t he peopl e and, you know, g e t them i n
wi t h us, and somebody coul d, you know, come i n and t a l k t o them.
And t h a t ' s a l l t h a t , you know, we got .
Q. And as f a r as t he VC t h a t we r e supposed t o be i n
t he r e , wa s t he r e any i n s t r u c t i o n s about f i r i n g when you went
i n?
A. No. They s a i d d o n ' t f i r e unl es s you we r e f i r e d upon.
Q- Were t he s e ba s i c a l l y t he same i n s t r u c t i o n s t h a t you
had been gi ven on ot he r ope r a t i ons , o r was t h e r e anyt hi ng d i f -
f e r e n t about t h i s mi ssi on t h a t you r e c a l l ?
A. They were t he same i ns t r uc t i ons .
Q. You don' t r e c a l l anyt hi ng out of t he or di nar y about
t h i s mi ssi on i n the way of br i e f i ng, , t ha nt he b r i e f i n g t h a t you
got i n pr evi ous mi ssi ons?
A. NO, sir.
COL WILSON: Mr . FIELDS, I'm goi ng t owalk you t hrough t he
i nc i de nt s t h a t happened as we know them, and w e ' l l t r y t o ask
you i f you have any a ddi t i ona l knowledge on t he occur r ences.
Now, t he t hi ngs t h a t I ' l l br i ng t o your a t t e n t i o n w i l l be t he
t hi ngs t h a t we have documented evi dence on. We have e i t h e r
j our nal e n t r i e s , o r , not t est i mony a t t h i s s t a ge , but t h i s is
all wr i t t e n documents from var i ous s our ces . Okay, t he combat
a s s a u l t , the first l i f t t ouched down a t 0815, NOW, t h i s photo-
graph t h a t you' r e l ooki ng a t i s t he same one Mr . WALSH used a
mi nut e ago, That's t he Pi nkvi l l e , r i g h t . You r ecogni ze t h i s
now, don' t you.
I
A. Y e s , si r .
Q . Okay. The second l i f t touched down a t 0827. Samc.
pl ace. The f i r s t cas ual t y was Li cut cnant COCHRAN k i l l e d a nd
f our wounded, and t h a t was a t 0845. It was s hor t l y a f t e r you
got of f t he he l i c opt e r , e s pe c i a l l y i f you were on t he second
l i f t . And it wa s i n an area which was a c r os s t h a t t r a i l t h a t
Mr. WALSH poi nt ed out . Now, do you remember when you l anded,
which d i r e c t i o n t h i s f i r e was coming from? W e be l i e ve t he
h e l i c o p t e r ' s approached from t he sout h and were headi ng nor t h
when t hey dropped you o f f .
A. I t hi nk it wa s coming i n t he same was as t he arrow
there ( i ndi c a t i ng) . I t hi nk it wa s coming from t he f r o n t t he r e .
Q. Coming from t he f r ont ?
A, Y e s , sir.
Q.
Do you r e c a l l when Li eut enant COCHRAN was wounded?
A. Yes, si r.
Q I mean, wa s k i l l e d ? Were you c l os e t o him?
A. No, sir.
-'Q. Did you see him?
A. NO, si r.
Q. Where were you? I n which d i r e c t i o n from h i s l ocat i on?
Was he of f t o your r i g h t o r l e f t o r what?
A. I think he wa s of f t o my r i g h t .
Q. When you l e f t t h a t l andi ng zone, do you remember
the pl at oon f or mat i on? ,
A. N o I d o n ' t , si r.
Q Do you remember t he squad format i on?
A. I think we we r e i n s i xe s o r sevens, somet hi ng l i k e
that,
Q Were you i n a column, o r were you on l i ne ?
'(FIELDS) 13
APP T-283
A. I n a l i n e .
Q You w e r e i n a l i n e , everybody moving abr east .
A. Y e s , si r.
Q = Do you know i f you w e r e t h e squad on t h e l e f t or
t h e r i g h t or t h e c e n t e r squad, or what was your squad p o s i t i o n ?
A. I t hi nk w e were i n t h e mi ddl e.
Q- You t h i n k you were i n t h e mi ddl e.
A. Y e s , si r .
Q- A l l r i g h t . Ther e was one gr oup wounded. They w e r e
evacuat ed. Do you remember s e e i n g t h e d u s t o f f come i n and pi c k
them up? Thi s would have been t h e gr oup where Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN
w a s k i l l e d .
A. NO, si r .
Q. A l l r i g h t , the n e x t gr oup h i t a booby t r a p a t 0930
i n t h e g e n e r a l v i c i n i t y of where--wi t hi n a few m e t e r s , maybe
100, and 150, of t h e l o c a t i o n where t h e f i r s t boobyt r ap was
t r i pped- - or l a nd mine. Thr ee wounded t h e r e ? Do you remember
t h i s ?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q . Do you remember t h e a i r c r a f t coming i n and pi c ki ng
t h e s e peopl e up--t he evacuat i on?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Do you remember t h e t ype a i r c r a f t it was?
A. I t h i n k it was a d u s t o f f s h i p .
Q. Red Cr oss mar ki ngs?
A. Red Cr os s , ye s , si r .
9- The 1st Pl a t oon had moved a c r o s s t h e br i dge . D i d
you h e a r any f i r i n g goi ng on o u t t h e r e t oward t h e ocean?.
(FIELDS) APP T-283
A. No, si r .
Q
Le t ' s s ee t he phot ographs. What d i d t he 3d Pl at oon.
do t he r e s t of t he day a f t e r t he c a s u a l t i e s were evacuat ed?
A. I ' m not t oo s ur e , e xa c t l y, you know, what t hey di d,
si r. We st opped o r walked i n o r s t ayed i n one pos i t i on o r
what, exact l y.
Q. Do you remember sweeping any v i l l a g e s t h a t day?
A. Y e s , si r, I t hi nk we went t hrough one.
Q. Was itburned?
A. NO, si r.
Q- Now, t h i s would have been t he t i m e a f t e r you had re-
cei ved t he or de r t o des t r oy ever yt hi ng.
A. Yes, sir. But I d o n ' t t hi nk t h a t we burned it,t h a t
one.
Q. Do you remember C Company coming i n t h a t ni ght o r
t h a t af t er noon?
A. Y e s .
Q. You do remember t h a t .
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. You do remember s e e i ng them.
A. Yes, si r.
Q. Let me show you some phot ographs her e. P-18. Do
you r ecogni ze anyt hi ng about t h a t phot ograph?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. What?
A. I t hi nk t h a t t he peopl e t hey had t h e r e were--I t hi nk
t h a t we w e r e supposed t o march t hes e peopl e somewhere, but I
don't know e xa c t l y where.
. Q. You mean t h e Vietnamese i n t he phot ograph?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Who's t h e s o l d i e r wi t h them?
A. That l ooks l i k e s pec 4--I don' t know what h i s name
i s , b u t I t hi nk h e ' s a s pec 4 or e i t h e r a buck s er geant .
Q. Ye s . W e l l , what pl at oon was he i n?
A. Second Pl at oon.
Q- No, ' he w a s i n t he weapons pl at oon. H i s name i s
HUFFMAN, b u t what wa s he doi ng guar di ng t he s e pr i s oner s ? Do
you know?
A. - Nor sir.
Q Do you r ecogni ze t h i s a r e a ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q- Where is i t ?
A. I t l ooks l i k e i t ' s out around t h e a r e a of Upt i ght ,
somewhere up , i n t he r e .
Q. P-20. Do you r e me mb e r s e e i ng any?
A. NO, si r.
Q- You don' t know any of t he peopl e i n t h a t phot o?
A. I ' v e s een t h i s guy.
Q
The man on t h e ext reme l e f t t aki ng h i s hel met o f f ?
A. YesI si r.
Q. Did. you s e e him on t h i s oper at i on?
A, I f t h a t ' s t he same guy, sir.
Q. How about t he Vietnamese s o l d i e r ?
A. No, I d o n ' t t hi nk I ' v e s een him.
(FIELDS) 16
APP T-283
Q. P-22? What do you know about t h a t phot o?
A. Uot hi ng, except t he guy t h a t ' s i n t h e pi c t ur e .
(2. Who? The one i n t he c e nt e r ? Who i s he?
A. I d o n ' t know what h i s name i s. I never knew t oo
many of them.
.Q. Did you s e e him on t h i s oper at i on?
A. I t hi nk so.
Q Where?
A. In--I t hi nk it w a s around t h e Pi nkvi l l e ar ea.
Q Huh?
A. I . t hi nk i t w a s around t h e ~ i n k v i l l ea r e a , I ' m not s ur e.
Q - Tha t ' s t h e c e nt e r man i n t he phot ograph.
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. Thi s phot ograph, P-23, show Capt ai n MICHLES on t h e
l ef t and s o me Vietnamese. Do you r ecogni ze any of t h e Vietnamese
i n t hat phot ograph?
A. No, sir.
Q- Did you ever see t h i s man on t h e l e f t i n P-66?
No, si r.
The. one next t o him?
A. I don' t t hi nk s o.
Q Did you see, when C Compnay came i n t h e l aager area
t ha t . a f t e r noon, d i d you s e e some ARVN s o l d i e r s wi t h them?
A. Y e s , si r , I t hi nk t hey had t h e ARVN s o l d i e r KI M and
--I
' t t hi nk of t h e o t h e r one ' s name.
(FIELDS) APP T-283
I
Q - Who's KIM?
A. KI M. K-I-M?
Q. Who's KIM?
A. ARVN s o l d i e r , a l l I know. H e w a s t h e i n t e r p r e t e r .
Q. For whom?
A. For C Company's capt ai n.
Q. Could t h a t be PHU?
A. K i m PHU? I t mi ght have been--
Q' ( I nt er pos i ng) Ser geant PHU?
A. No .
Q But it w a s t he C Company commander's i n t e r p r e t e r ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. That l as t ' phot ogr aph I showed you is a phot ograph
of him. Look agai n a t P-66, t he man on t h e l e f t .
A. No, I s t i l l don' t know him.
Q.
But- you do know Capt ai n MEDINA o r t h e C Company
commander's i n t e r p r e t e r ?
A. No, I d o n ' t know him per s onal l y. I t w a s one named
KI M. I remember him, and he wa s wi t h C Company.
Q - . Y e s .
A. A t l east I t hought he wa s . He c a r r i e d a dog wi t h
him a l l t h e t i m e .
MR. WALSH: What wa s h i s name?
KI M.
KIM?
K I N or KIM, somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
(FIELDS) 18
APP T-283
Q H- I - E- N, HIEN? Could it be HIEN?
A. N o , t hey c a l l e d him K I M.
Q KI M?
A. KIM o r KI N.
Q - KIN?
COL WILSON: But you s a w some ARVN s o l d i e r s come i n t h e r e ? And
you s a y t h i s man who nor mal l y t ook a dog wi t h him.
A. Y e s , si r. H e us ua l l y c a r r i e d a dog wi t h him. Be-
caus e he had been wi t h our u n i t bnce be f or e , t oo.
Q And he wa s t h e r e t h a t day?
A. Ye s , si r.
9. D o e s he nor mal l y go by hi ms e l f , o r i s he nor mal l y
wi t h a U.S. uni formed i ndi vi dua l ?
A. H e ' s nor mal l y wi t h a U.S. i n uni form.
Q. Uniformed i ndi vi dua l . H e ' s an o f f i c e r o r an e n l i s t e d
man i n t he U.S. f o r c e s , U.S. Army. O r does he go by hi ms el f ?
A. No, he us ua l l y goes o u t wi t h t h e u n i t when t hey go out .
Q. But he came i n wi t h C Company. H e wasn' t wi t h t h e
u n i t t h a t morning when you went on t h e combat a s s a u l t ?
A. No, he come i n wi t h C Company.
Q Do you know t h e 2d ARVN Di vi s i on pat ch?
A. No, I d o n ' t .
9. Do you remember any d i s t i n c t i v e i n s i g n i a t h a t was
be i ng worn by t h e s e ARVN s o l d i e r s ?
A. N o , sir.
Q D o you know i f any of t h e s e ARVN s o l d i e r s w e r e Nat i onal
Po l i c e , or w e r e t h e r e Nat i onal Po l i c e i n t h e gr oup wi t h C Company?
A. No, si r.
(FIELDS)
19 APP T- 283
FOR OFFI~IALUSE ONLY
Q.
And you s a i d you saw--did you say how many ARVN
s o l d i e r s came i n wi t h C Company?
A. I d i d n ' t say how many came i n . I onl y s a i d that
I seen one.
Q J u s t t h e one, t h a t ' s a l l ?
A. ye s , si r.
Q. You d i d n ' t see any more t ha n t h a t ?
A. Ther e mi ght have been some more, but I d i d n ' t see
any more.
Q-
When C Company came i n , d i d t hey come i n wi t h any
de t a i ne e s ?
A. I ' m n o t s u r e , b u t I t hi nk t he y di d.
9. Was t h i s group t h a t you saw i n t h e phot ogr aphs
being guar ded, di d C Company br i ng t h e s e peopl e i n o r d i d
B Company round them up?
A. W e l l , I t hi nk C Company br ought i n some of them.
0. And br ought them i n ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q- Did you see any of them evacuat ed?
A. No, sir. I d o n ' t recal l .
Q - Did you see any of them bei ng i n t e r r o g a t e d ?
A. Y e s , I t hi nk t h a t t hey had a guy o u t t o i n t e r r o g a t e
some.
Q. Was he Vietnamese o r American?
A. Vi et namese.
Q e Was there an American wi t h him?
A. Y e s , si r.
(FIELDS)
1
20
APP T-283
Q Do you remcmber what t he rank of t h e Arncrican was?
A. I t hi nk hc was a c a p t a i n .
Q Think what ?
A. I t hi nk he was a c a pt a i n.
Q. What d i d he l ook l i k e ?
A. A l l I remember i s he was a t a l l , whi t e ma l e - -
Q. ( I nt e r pos i ng) Ta l l ?
A. Yes , si r.
Q
Did he have any s p e c i a l t ype of c l o t h i n g on?
A,
I d i d n ' t pay t h a t much a t t e n t i o n t o him.
,
Q- Did he have a l a r g e kni f e ?
A. I d o n ' t know, si r.
Q. While t he s e i n t e r r o g a t i o n s w e r e goi ng on, d i d you
see any mi s t r eat ment of t h e de t a i ne e s ?
A. NO, si r .
Q How many d i d you see i n t e r r o g a t e d ?
A. W e l l , I onl y s een one, sir.
Q-
They d i d n ' t b e a t him up o r mistreat him?
Q. Did you h e a r of any mi s t r eat ment of de t a i ne e s t h a t
day?
A. Y e s , sir. I hear d- - i t was t hr ough t h e company.
Q. Was it t h a t day?
(FIELDS)
Y e s , sir.
APP T-283
CONFIDENTIAL
APP T-283
COL WILSON: A l l r i g h t , t he 17t h t he company moved acr os s t he
br i dge over toward t he s ea. Now, a t t h a t t i m e , t he r e was some
commotion down t h e r e on t he br i dge, some f i r i n g and some a c t i on.
Do you recall t h i s ?
A. Y e s , si r.
I
Q Ser geant TAYLOR t r i ppe d a mine?
A. Y e s , si r .
I
a - Where w a s your pl at oon when t h i s happened?
I
A. If I ' m not mi st aken, I t hi nk t h a t our pl at oon w a s
behi nd somewhere, al most behi nd on over on t he s i d e , because
when we hear d t he f i r i n g goi ng on when he h i t t h a t *mine, I
t hi nk we we r e supposed t o go acr os s t he br i dge , a t t he same
t i m e the V i e t Cong w e r e on t he ot he r s i de . Af t e r TAYLOR had
got h i t , t hey came back i ns t e a d of goi ng a l l t he way acr os s
t he br i dge. And when we come down and run i n t o t he r oad w e
me t , you know, t hey had some women and i n t h i s hoot ch, s o we
t ook them out t o s e e i f t hey would go acr os s t he br i dge , and
t hey t ook of f and s t a r t e d r unni ng. They ended up g e t t i n g blown
up because t he whole br i dge was boobyt rapped. And when t hey
r a n acr os s and we found out t he br i dge was boobyt rapped, w e
s t a r t e d g e t t i n g s ni pe r f i r e from t he ot he r s i d e .
Q A s I under st and i t , you say t h a t nobody was acr os s
t he br i dge?
@
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk s o. I t hi nk TAYLOR was on h i s way across
t he br i dge when t h i s happened.
LTC NOLL: What was t he or der of march from your l a a ge r a r e a t o
t he br i dge? Do you r e c a l l i f t he or der of march was 2d Pl at oon,
3d Pl at oon; 2d Pl at oon, command group, 3d Pl at oon.
A. I t hi nk it was t he 1st Pl at oon t h a t went f i r s t , t hen
t he 3d Pl at oon second, t hen t he 2d Pl at oon.
COL WILSON: See, t he t hi ng about t he- - t he 1st Pl at oon wa s
across and had been acr os s and s t ayed over t h e r e t h a t ni ght .
TAYLOR wa s wounded coming back t o t he br i dge t o s ecur e t he
br i dge f o r t he 2d and 3d Pl at oons t o cr os s . They w e r e on
t he ot he r s i d e of t he r i v e r .
(FIELDS) 24
APP T-283
A. The one I am probabl y t hi nki ng of wa s anot her ,
because t h e r e was somet hi ng o r ot he r oper at i on t h a t was
s i mi l a r t o t h a t .
Q. But TAYLOR was wounded on t h i s one.
A. Maybe I got TAYLOR mixed up wi t h some ot he r guy
t h a t got wounded on anot her oper at i on.
(2. What about t hes e Vietnamese t h a t you say you got
ahol d of and t hey r an of f and got - - i t ' s not ver y common f o r
Vietnamese t o r un over mi nes, i s i t ?
A. No, i t ' s not , but l i k e I s a i d , we were supposed t o
be goi ng acr os s t h i s br i dge, and t hey j u s t t ook of f and s t a r t e d
r unni ng and when t hey d i d t hey h i t t he mi nes, s o I guess t he
women knew what was t he r e .
Q Well, where w e r e t he mines. Were t he y on t he br i dge
o r on t he approaches?
A. On t he approaches t o t he br i dge , and t hey had one
i n t he mi ddl e of it.
Q - Was t he br i dge damaged?
A. No, not t h a t much. J u s t knocked one-hal f of it o u t ,
but you coul d st i l l g e t acr os s .
Q What about t he f i r i n g .over t he r e ? Was t h e r e any
f i r i n g coming from acr os s t he r i v e r ?
A. I ' d say on t he r i g h t over t h e r e , o u t of t he brush
o r somet hi ng.
Q. D i d any of t he pl at oons on t h i s s i d e of t he r i v e r
r e t u r n t he f i r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q How was i t done? id you a l l move up on l i n e o r
what?
A. W e moved up on l i n e , got down and f i r e d r i g h t
acr os s . Then anot her pl at oon went t o go acr os s t he br i dge,
we f i r e d a t them s o t hey coul d ge t acr os s .
Q. You covered t h e i r cr os s i ng?
A. Y e s , si r.
(FIELDS) 25
APP T- 283
Q. What about gunshi ps?
A. ' W e l l , I d o n ' t t hi nk had--
Q. ( I nt er pos i ng) You don' t remember any gunshi ps?
A. No, si r.
Q
What happened when you g o t on t he ot he r s i d e ,
anything?
A. Yeah, we had t o s ear ch t h a t a r e a o u t because I r e c a l l
a f e w hoot ches and s t u f f over t he r e . They s t a r t e d bur ni ng t hos e,
t he ones t h a t we r e t h e r e , but ( i na udi bl e ) .
Q D i d you see any bodi es?
A. No.
Q How l ong di d t he s ear ch t ake bef or e you moved--if
you moved?
About 2 o r 3 hour s.
Q. 2 o r 3 hour s?
1
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. .HOW many house di d you squad s ear ch?
A. W e had sear ched q u i t e a few; I don' t remember t he
e xa c t number.
Q. How do you a l l us ua l l y s ear ch houses?
A. We us ual l y go i n by squads and s ear ch.
Q- You mean one squad goes i n a hoot ch?
A. Not the whole squad, j u s t one squad goes i n t o a
c e r t a i n area, you know, two o r . t hr e e hoot ches cl os e, and s p l i t
up and go into the hoot ches.
Q How do you s p l i t up?
A. W e l l , it would be l i k e a two-man team. One man might
say out s i de , anot her man might go i n and s ear ch around.
Q. Who d i d you nor mal l y work wi t h?
A. W e l l , t he man I was nor mal l y worki ng with--who-
e ve r d i d n ' t have anybody t o go i n wi t h.
a . Do you normal l y work wi t h t h e same guy a l l t h e t i me?
A. No, sometimes I ' d even go i n by mysel f .
Q. Tha t ' s n o t a ver y good i de a .
A. Ther e was al ways somebody o u t around t h e a r e a when
I went i n .
Q - You d i d n ' t see any bodi e s . Did you he a r of any
people be i ng , k i l l e d over t h e r e ?
A. I don' t t h i n k s o.
Q N o t a l k ?
A. Ther e mi ght have been some, b u t I d o n ' t know.
Q. What d i d you do a f t e r t h a t , a f t e r you g o t t hr ough
s e a r c hi ng? Did you s t a y t h e r e o r d i d you move out ?
A. I t h i n k we l a a ge r e d t h e r e .
Q- Ri ght around t h a t same a r e a ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q - Did you move of f and come back, o r d i d you s t a y
r i g h t t h e r e .
A. W e moved o f f .
Q Came back be f or e dar k?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q How f a r o u t d i d you go?
A. W e was n' t ' t h a t f a r away f r o m i t .
( FI ELDS) APP T-283
Q. W e l l , whi l e you were over t he r e , do you remember
s eei ng any ARVN o r Vietnamese s o l d i e r s wi t h B Company t h a t
day come acr os s t he br i dge?
NO, si r.
Q. D i d you s e e any s t r a nge r s , i n t e l l i g e n c e peopl e, o r
phot ogr apher s, o r S t a r s and St r i p e s per sonnel ?
A. Not t h a t I know o f .
Q. Di d you s e e t h a t s e r ge a nt t h a t you knew t h a t was
wi t h B Company? Did you s e e him agai n t h a t day?
A. Y e s , I di d.
Q. So he was over--so he cr os s ed t h e br i dge t h a t day.
I
A. Y e s , sir.
Q - ' Did you s e e any he l i c opt e r s come i n br i ngi ng i n
s uppl i e s o r per sonnel ?
A. NO, si r.
Q - Did you s e e Col onel BARKER t h a t day?
A. No, si r.
Q. You moved o u t t hen moved back i n t o a l a a ge r pos i t i on
t h a t ni ght . Did a he l i c opt e r come i n and br i ng you anyt hi ng?
A. I d o n ' t t hi nk s o.
Q- What weapon w e r e you armed wi t h?
A. M-16.
Q Did you need a r esuppl y of ammo?
Q. You d o n ' t remember a he l i c opt e r coming i n t h a t day.
A. NO, si r .
(FIELDS) 28
APP T-283
-1
Q Rat i ons . D i d you have r a t i o n s w i t h you?
A. Y e s , s i r .
Q Don' t r e c a l l anyt hi ng happeni ng t h a t a f t e r noon
of any i mpor t ance?
A. N o , si r, not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q a A l l r i g h t , you s t a ye d t h e r e t h a t n i g h t . B Company
moved o f f . The rest of t h e company went s out h. Anyt hi ng
happen t h a t n i g h t ?
A. Not i n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r a r e a t h a t I know o f .
MR WALSH: Did you see a nyt hi ng unus ual a f t e r you g o t a c r o s s
t he br i dge ?
A. N o t ' t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q. Did you t a l k wi t h anybody f r o m t h e 1st Pl a t oon
a f t e r you g o t a c r o s s t h e br i dge about what had been done
t he day be f or e ?
A. NO, si r .
Q Did you h e a r t h a t t hey had k i l l e d a l ot of peopl e?
A. .Yeah, I he a r d somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q What d i d you he a r ?
A. From what t hey w e r e s a yi ng, t hey just went t hr ough
a v i l l a g e . They s e a r c he d and de s t r oye d. Ac t ua l l y, t hey de-
s t r o y e d i n s t e a d of s e a r c he d.
Q . Did you see any bodi e s down t h e r e ?
A. No.
Q How many peopl e d i d t he y k i l l t h e day be f or e t h a t ?
A. That I d o n ' t know.
Q.
Did anybody you t a l k e d t o g i v e you any number or
est i , mat e?
A. No .
(FIELDS) APP T-283
Q. When t hc?y wc l l t Lhroucl l ~ t l ~ c . v i 1 l ac l c . , how w e r e t ht .
peopl e k i l l cd? Mac11inc:cjuns:' S111al 1 {lrnis,.?
A. From what I wa s told, it was from s ma l l arms--1
mean it w a s mai nl y machi neguns, but t hey a l s o s a i d it was
s mal l a r m s t oo.
Q. Did you he a r t h a t MILUS had set up a machinegun
and f i r e d a t e ve r yt hi ng t h a t moved around t h e v i l l a g e when
t hey moved i n t o i t ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Did you t a l k t o MILUS about i t ?
A. Y e s , I t h i n k we had set up and w e w e r e g e t t i n g
r eady t o eat chow and I asked him about it, and he t o l d me
he d i d n ' t t h i n k not hi ng coul d k i l l him. That s a me ni ght a
mor t ar round came i n and k i l l e d him. H e s a i d somet hi ng l i ke- -
he s a i d he d i d n ' t t h i n k not hi ng coul d k i l l him. And he w a s
t a l k i n g about how he had k i l l e d t he s e peopl e. And t h a t same
n i g h t a mor t ar round came i n and went d i r e c t l y i n t o h i s hol e
and k i l l e d him.
Q. I ' d l i k e you to--of c our s e , h e ' s n o t he r e , s o we
c a n ' t t a l k t o him, b u t s i n c e you had a c onve r s a t i on wi t h him,
I ' d l i k e t o t r y t o recall j u s t a s b e s t you can how he de s c r i be d
how he had k i l l e d t h e peopl e on t h a t f i r s t day.
A. W e l l , t h e onl y t h i n g I t e l l you he j u s t t o l d me he
killed a l o t of peopl e.
Q Did he t e l l you where he was when he k i l l e d them?
A. NO, si r.
Q. Was he i n s i d e t h e v i l l a g e , o r wa s he o u t s i d e t h e
v i l l a g e ? Do you remember t h a t ?
A. I d o n ' t know f o r s ur e i f it wa s i n s i d e o r o u t s i d e ,
b u t I think it w a s on t h e i n s i d e .
Q. H e di dn' t say how many a l t o g e t h e r ?
A. No, it wa s q u i t e a few, but he d i d n ' t say how many.
30
APP T-283
Q - Did he t e l l you whet her t h e pl a t oon l e a de r o r
anybody had g o t t e n a n g r y wi t h him as a r e s u l t of i t ?
A. No, si r .
Q -
Did he t c l l you whet her he had been dr der ed t o
k i l l everybody i n t h e v i l l a g e b e f o r e t hey moved i n o r when
t hey moved i n ?
A. From t h e way peopl e were t a l k i n g , from what I he a r d,
t hey s a i d somebody t o l d him--he had an o r d e r i n o t h e r words, t o
k i l l anyt hi ng t h a t moved, and he was t h e t ype of : guy t h a t l i k e d
t o pull t h e t r i g g e r anyway. I guess when he moved he s t a r t e d
f i r i n g , k i l l i n g them.
Q. So h e f ol l owed or de r s .
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. And he d i d a good job of it.
A. I d o n ' t know about a good j ob, k i d s and s t u f f .
Q We've had some i n d i c a t i o n s t h a t he had some h e l p ,
t h a t t h e r e w e r e some o t h e r peopl e who f i r e d a t anyt hi ng t h a t
moved t oo. D i d you h e a r anyt hi ng about whet her he was t h e
onl y one, or whet her t h e r e w e r e o t h e r peopl e i n h i s squad o r
else w e r e i n t h e 1st Pl at oon who--
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) W e l l , t h e onl y one I he a r d was him,
because ever yone was r unni ng around t h e r e and t a l k i n g about
it, MILUS did t h i s , MILUS d i d t h a t .
Q. How about peopl e coming o u t of bunker s and bei ng
s h o t as t hey came o u t of bunker s by the 1st Pl a t oon t h a t f i r s t
day? D i d you h e a r anyt hi ng about t h a t ?
A. N o , si r.
Q - Hear anyt hi ng about us i ng gr enades o r dynami t e on
the bunker s?
A. I he a r d somet hi ng about t hr owi ng gr enades i n t h e r e .
Q Hear about any peopl e be i ng k i l l e d t h a t way?
A. W e l l , th'ey had been k i l l e d t h a t way. T e l l them t o
come o u t and t hey d o n ' t come o u t and you' r e n o t goi ng i n t h e r e
t o get them, s o you t hrow i n a gr enade i n t h e r e .
(FIELDS) 31
APP T-283
FOR OFFI CI AL US E ONLY
Q - Is t h a t somet hi ng t h a t you know gener al l y from
oper at i ons o r d i d you hear somebody t a l ki ng about i t ?
A. Well, t h i s i s somet hi ng ge ne r a l l y from oper at i ons ,
Q. HOW about t he 1st Pl at oon oper at i ons on t he f i r s t
day? Did you hear anyt hi ng s p e c i f i c about t h a t ?
A. No, sir.
Q. The onl y t hi ng you hear d was t a l k i n g t o MILUS and
peopl e t a l ki ng about MI LUS on t he f i r s t day?
A. Y e s , si r .
LTC NOLL: Do you r e c a l l where t he 81 mi l l i me t e r mor t ar was
l ocat ed t he second day, t he day you cr os s ed t he r i v e r ?
A. NO, si r .
Q Did you hear of t he 1st Pl at oon k i l l i n g anybody
on t he second day of t he oper at i on, t he day t h a t you s pent
most of t he day around t he br i dge?
A. I ' m not s ur e , si r.
COL WILSON: You said t h a t when you t a l ke d t o MILUS t h a t day
you s a t down t o e a t wi t h him.
A. Y e s , si r.
Q What t i m e wa s t h a t ?
A. That wa s dur i ng- - wel l , it was j u s t about al most
dar k, p r e t t y c l os e t o t h a t t i m e .
Q- You' re s ur e it was t he eveni ng meal ?
A. Y e s , si r. I remember t h a t one because t he l i e ut e na nt
t h a t I had s at me on a pos i t i on where i f I ha dn' t changed my
pos i t i on I would have been k i l l e d . Tha t ' s why I remember t h a t .
9. MILUS was wi t h you t hen?
A. No, he was n' t wi t h me. I mean we were a l l t oge t he r
i n our l a a ge r pos i t i on, and when we went t o chow I wa s t a l k i n g
t o him i n t he chow line, and I t o l d him I ' d hear d about what
he' d done, and t h a t ' s when he t o l d me t h a t not hi ng coul d s t op
him from t r y i n g t o k i l l t he s e c i v i l i a n s .
Q. Thi s was t he day t h a t you cr os s ed t he br i dge?
A. No, sir. Th i s was t he ni ght before--
LTC NOLL: Af t e r t h e MEDCAP.
COL WILSON: Thi s i s not t h e second day t hen, i t ' s the--Okay .
MR WALSH: Thi s i s t he ni ght MILUS was k i l l e d .
A. Yes.
COL WILSON: L e t ' s go up t o t he 18t h. You s t ayed t h e r e i n
t he pos i t i on. Now I ' m t a l k i n g about t he t i m e t h a t you s t ayed
i n t he pos i t i on up by t he br i dge. Thi s is t h e d a t e I ' m t a l k i n g
about . Remember you s t ayed up t h e r e by t he br i dge. The day
you cr os s ed, you s t ayed up i n t h a t gener al ar ea. Re me mb e r
t h a t ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q. And t he company went o f f ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Now, t he next morning, t he company came back, your
pl at oon shoul d have fol l owed i n wi t h t he company and moved up
t o t h e nor t h. Do you recal l t h a t ?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q Moved out i n t o a v i l l a g e up t he r e . Whole bunch of
Vietnamese c i v i l i a n s i n t h a t a r e a . Remember t h i s ? Rounding
up a whole bunch of c i v i l i a n s and moving t h e m down toward t he
beach?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. You do remember t h a t ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Sear chi ng t he v i l l a g e out ? Do you remember anyt hi ng
i n p a r t i c u l a r about s ear chi ng t hos e vi l l a ge s ?
A. I f i t ' s t he same t hi ng I ' m t hi nki ng o f , t he r e was
not hi ng i n p a r t i c u l a r I can t hi nk o f .
Q
Do you remember medi cal per s onnel coming i n t he r e ?
A. NO, si r.
Q.
You d o n ' t remember t hes e peopl e t h a t you s e n t back
bei ng t r e a t e d by medi cs?
A. NO, - sir.
(2
Remember any he l i c opt e r s coming i n ?
A. No, si r.
Q- No a ddi t i ona l per sonnel bei ng br ought i n , t hen?
Q. I Remember s e e i ng any ARVN?
A. N o , sir.
Q Mi l i t a r y i n t e l l i g e n c e per sonnel ?
A. Would t h i s be i n s i d e t he v i l l a g e o r where?
Q.
Y e s , it would be anywhere i n t h e r e dur i ng t h a t day.
A. I t hi nk t h e r e was some ARVN' s i n t h e r e t h a t day.
Q -
Do you remember where you saw them? What t hey were
doi ng?
A.
I t hi nk t h a t a f t e r we rounded t hes e peopl e up, t hey
went i n t o a hoot ch and t hey had them i n t h e r e and asked them
ques t i ons .
Q- What happened?
They would ask' em and send them back out . A.
Q
You di dnPt see what t hey were doi ng i n t he r e .
(FIELDS ) APP T-283
A. No, sir.
Q A l l r i g h t . When you got t hrouqh t h a t day, you went
i n t o a l aager that night, r i ght ' ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q - Es t abl i s hed a per i met er pos i t i on?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q
A t t h a t t i me di d you s ee any ARVN per sonnel i ns i de
t he l a a ge r ar ea?
A. N o , sir.
Q
Any mi l i t ar y- - any s t r a nge r s , not members of B Company?
A. Not t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q.
Did you hear of any ARVN o r i n t e r p r e t e r s bei ng i n
t he a r e a t h a t ni ght ?
A. ' NO, si r.
Q. Did you hear of any i nt e r r oga t i ons goi ng on? Any
mi st r eat ment of Vietnamese det ai nees ?
A. NO, sir.
Q- Lat er t h a t ni ght , you r ecei ved a mor t ar a t t a c k.
MILUS wa s k i l l e d and s e ve r a l men wounded. Re me mbe r how many
rounds came i n?
One o r two.
Q. Did you see where t he mor t ar was f i r i n g from?
A. Y e s , from t he v i l l a g e .
Q How f a r ?
A. I t wa s a p r e t t y good ways. I t was st i l l a good
di s t a nc e from us.
Q- Any s m a l l arms?
(FIELDS) 35
\
APP T-283
' FOR OFFICIAL USF ONLY
A. Yeah, there was some f i r i n g 50 or 60 meters away
from us.
Q Did you a l l r e t ur n t he f i r e ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q*
How f a r wa s MILUS from you when he w a s k i l l e d ?
A. About 25 meters.
Q - You remember t he he l i c opt e r s coming i n t o evacuat e
t he wounded and MILUS?
A. Y e s , sir. They came ip t h a t ni ght because t hey had
t o have l i g h t s t o see where it w a s , where t he wounded we r e .
Q- Had t o what?
A. I t hi nk t hey came i n dur i ng t he ni ght , because I
remember somet hi ng about where t hey had t o have t h e i r l i g h t s .
They had t o t u r n t h e i r l i g h t s on, and t hey d i d n ' t want t o t u r n
them on because we we r e g e t t i n g f i r e d on.
Q What about a r t i l l e r y ? Did you hear any a r t i l l e r y
f i r e t h a t day? Ei t he r t h a t af t er noon o r t h a t ni ght ?
A. No , I di dn' t .
Q- How about gunshi p f i r e o r ai r t o ground f i r e . Did
you he a r any t h a t day o r t h a t ni ght a f t e r you r ecei ved mor t ar
f i r e ?
A. I don' t remember sir.
Q. Anyt hi ng else occur t h a t ni ght a f t e r t he mortar
a t t a c k?
A. No, si r, not t h a t I remember.
LTC NOLL:
Do you remember where your pl at oon wa s l ocat ed i n
r ef er ence t o the ot he r two bl at oons i n t he ni ght def ens i ve
pos i t i on t h a t ni ght ? Were-you f aci ng nor t h, east , o r west ?
You were al ong t he s eacoas t . Did you have your backs t o t he
sea?
(FIELDS) APP T-283
A. No, ours--my s i d e was t o t h e s ea.
Q 1st Pl at oon on your r i g h t ?
A. Yeah, I t hi nk s o. Yeah.
COL WILSON: Now, you di d r ecei ve a hot meal t h a t ni ght , r i g h t ?
Thi s was t he ni ght you t a l ke d t o MILUS?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. The next morning, d i d you see any det ai nees bei ng
i nt e r r oga t e d?
A. ( I naudi bl e- one word) , si r.
Q. Did you see any of t h e m bei ng mi s t r eat ed?
A. NO, si r .
Q D5d you hear--
A. ( I i i ker posi ng) Yes, I hear d about it.
Q What happened? What di d you hear ?
A. That t hey be a t somebody, but I d i d n ' t know e xa c t l y
who t hey w e r e t a l ki ng about .
Q. B e a t him?
A. Y e s .
A. With t h e i r hands.
Q. D i d you s e e any of t he det ai nees ?
A. I s a w a few of them. I t hi nk we had--I 'm not s u r e ,
but I t hi nk we had t hr e e o r four.
Q Did you s e e a11 of them, o r how many di d you s ee.
A. J u s t two of them. Thi s wa s t he same ni ght one of
them got away.
(FIELDS) APP T-283
Q. One guy got away?
A. Yes.
Q These peopl e t h a t you saw t he next day, di d t hey
l ook l i k e t hey' d been be a t up?
MR WALSH: Who di d you hear had done t he be a t i ng on t he
pr i s oner s ?
A. I d i d n ' t hear . I j u s t hear d t h a t somebody be a t them.
Q Were t h e r e ARVN' s around t he r e t h a t morning?
A. I t hi nk so.
Q. How many?
A. Two.
Q- Thi s i n t e r p r e t e r named KIM, di d he s t a y wi t h B
Company t hrough t he rest of t he oper at i on a f t e r he j oi ned up
wi t h C Company?
A. I coul dn ' t say.
Q. Do you remember s eei ng him t he next day.
A. ( I naudi bl e) remember s eei ng him t he next day, be-
cause ( i naudi bl e) .
Q When di d he l eave? Did he l eave t he f i r s t day?
A. I t hi nk so.
Q And you d i d n ' t see him agai n t he rest of t he
oper at i on?
A. NoI sir.
Q Do you remember s eei ng anot her i n t e r p r e t e r wi t h
Capt ai n MICHLES dur i ng t he second and t h i r d day.
A. NoI sir.
Q. Remember s eei ng an American, maybe a Spec 4 o r 5
who t a l ke d Vietnamese i nt e r r oga t i ng any of the--
(FIELDS) 38 APP T- 283
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Yes, si r.
Q Bid you see him c u t t i n g t he backs of t h e i r hands
wi t h a kni f e and put t i ng s a l t i n them?
A. No, sir.
Q But you i ndi c a t e d you do remember s eei ng an American
i n t e r p r e t e r .
A. Yes, sir.
Q. When di d you s ee him?
A. I d o n ' t know e xa c t l y what day it wa s , , b u t I do
remember s eei ng him.
Q. Remember s e e i ng him i nt e r r oga t e any pr i s oner s ?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q Hi t t i n g them a l i t t l e b i t ?
A. Sl apped them around a l i t t l e .
Q- U s e any ot he r means of t o r t u r e ?
A. No, sir.
Q- Remember hear i ng anyt hi ng about anybody us i ng f i e l d
t el ephones t o i n t e r r o g a t e pr i s one r s on t h i s oper at i on?
A. Y e s , sir.
4 . \ Who was doi ng t h a t ?
A. Well, I don' t know h i s name, but he wa s a l i e ut e na nt .
Q. Li eut enant ?
A. Y e s , sir. He' d r un t he w i r e around one ' s t ongue
and, . ..
(FIELDS)
39
APP T-283
Q.
Touch t he wi r es t o p a r t s of t h e i r bodi es and gi ve
it a crank o r two?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q
Have you ever seen t h i s l i e ut e na nt bef or e?
A. yes , sir.
Q. Mi l i t a r y i n t e l l i g e n c e l i e ut e na nt ?
A. I d o n ' t know i f he was o r not ?
Q*
Did he have an i n t e r p r e t e r who wore dar k gl a s s e s
wi t h him?
Q.
Is t h a t t he l i e ut e na nt i n t he mi ddl e, phot ograph
P-22?
A. No, t h a t ' s not him.
Q Tha t ' s not t he guy?
A. No.
Q
Ever see t h a t f el l ow bef or e?
A. Thi s one her e?
-Q. No, t he f el l ow i n t he mi ddl e.
A. Yeah, I t hi nk I have seen him. H i s f ace l ooks
f a mi l i a r .
Q
A r e you s u r e t h a t ' s not t he l i e ut e na nt who was
i nt e r r oga t i ng t he peopl e? O r d i d n ' t you see t h e l i e ut e na nt
who wa s i nt e r r oga t i ng t he peopl e?
A. W e l l , I d i d n ' t s ee t he l i e ut e na nt a c t ua l l y.
Q.
You j u s t hear d t h a t a l i e ut e na nt was i nt e r r oga t i ng
peopl e wi t h a f i e l d t el ephone, h u t you d i d n ' t see i t ?
(FIELDS) 40
APP T-283
A. No.
Q. Okay. So, a s f a r a s y o u ' r e concer ned, it coul d
have been t h a t l i e u t e n a n t o r anybody el se because you never
saw it.
a- * Y e a h " I never seen h i m .
LTC NOLL: Did you e ve r see t h e l i e u t e n a n t who d i d this a f t e r -
wards ?
' A. I mi ght have seen him, but I d o n ' t know.
COL WILSON: Do you have any knowledge of an i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r
-an i n q u i r y conduct ed i n Vietnam on t h i s ope r a t i on? Anybody
e ve r as k you any que s t i ons ?
A. Not about t h a t , no, si,r.
Q - ' About t h a t ope r a t i on? Never di d? Anybody e ve r
ask anybody you know que s t i ons about t h e ope r a t i on.
A. No, si r.
A. Not whi l e I wa s i n ' Na r n.
Q Do you know anybody who had one on t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. I t h i n k Ser geant WHITTAKER had a camera, b u t I d o n ' t
t hi nk t he y w e r e t a k i n g any p i c t u r e s .
Q - Did you he a r any rumors t h a t t h e c i v i l i a n s had
been unne c e s s a r i l y k i l l e d on t h i s ope r a t i on by e i t h e r C o r
B Company?
*
A. I hear d somet hi ng about it.
Q What d i d you he a r ?
A, That a whole bunch of peopl e had g o t t e n k i l l e d by
C Tompany, and t hey s a i d t h a t C Company j u s t went i n t h e r e
and k i l l e d them f o r not hi ng. Th a t ' s what I hear d.
4 1
APP T-2 8 3
Q. When di d you hear t h i s ?
A. I d o n ' t know exact l y when.
Q . Was it whi l e you wcrc on the oper at i on or a f t e r
you got back t o t he f i r e base.
A. I ' m not s ur e .
Q. Did anybody e ve r t e l l you not t o say anyt hi ng about
t h a t ?
A. No, not t h a t I know of .
Q Nobody ever t o l d you t o keep q u i e t about t h i s
oper at i on i n any way?
A. No, sir. I t hought everybody knew about it.
Q About t he oper at i on o r about t he k i l l i n g ?
A. About t he oper at i on.
Q - Di dn' t know about t he oper at i on. I ' m t a l ki ng about
what occur r ed on t he oper at i on.
A. Oh.
Q. Do you know i f t he r e was any problem wi t h mar i j uana
i n B Company?
A. I t ' s not a problem, but t h e r e ' s q u i t e a few t hat - -
Q . ( I nt er pos i ng) Used i t ?
A. Y e s , s i r . '
Q How about on oper at i ons ?
A. Not on oper at i ons . J us t - -
Q - ( I nt er pos i ng) Don? go al ong wi t h t h a t ?
A. Oh, no!
MR WALSH: Sounds p r e t t y dangerous t o me, b u t I was n' t t he r e .
(FIELDS) 4 2
APP T-283
CONFIDENTIAL
(YIELDS)
APP T-283
WITNESS : GUTHRIE, J i mr n i e W.
DATE OF TESTIMONY: 2 February 1970
COUNSEL : None
DUTY ASSIGNMENT ON 16 MARCH 1968: EOD, Thi r d Pl a t oon,
B/ 4/ 3.
4
GUTHRIE wa s never gi ven any i n s t r u c t i o n on t h e
l e g a l i t y ve r s us t h e i l l e g a l i t y of o r d e r s (pg. 11). H e d i d
n o t r ecal l s e e i ng o r bei ng i s s ue d t h e MACV c a r ds "Nine
Rul es" orl' The Enemy i n Your Hands" (pg. 15) .
H e coul d n o t remember i f t h e b r i e f i n g w a s gi ven by a
squad l e a d e r o r a l i e u t e n a n t (pgs. 1 2 , 1 3 ) . H e r e c a l l e d no
o r d e r s gi v6n t o de s t r oy l i v e s t o c k o r bur n hoot ches (pg. 1 3 ) .
They w e r e t o l d t o expect a h o t LZ ( pg. 14).
3 . THE COMBAT ASSAULT.
I .
a. Act i ons on t h e 16t h.
GUTHRIE came i n on t h e f i r s t l i f t (pg. 15) . H e
d i d n o t r ecal l f i r i n g by h i s h e l i c o p t e r (pg. 1 6 ) . They
r e c e i ve d some f i r e from t h e w e s t which t he y r e t ur ne d d e s p i t e
t h e i r i n a b i l i t y t o see a t a r g e t ( pgs. 16, 1 7 ) . Per haps
t h e f i r i n g t hey he a r d came from C company ' s area (pgs . 16 ,
1 7 ) . A s t hey moved nor t h Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s k i l l e d
(pg. 1 8 ) . The wi t ne s s d i d n o t remember s e e i ng t h e h e l i c o p t e r
(GUTHRIE) 1 SUM APP T-298
which evacuat ed e i t h e r COCHRAN1s b o a o r t he l a t e r c a s u a l t i e s
(pg. 1 8 ) . Af t e r t h i s , t hey swept t hrough t h e v i l l a g e
(pg. 1 9 ) . H e d i d not r e c a l l des t r oyi ng t he v i l l a g e o r
hear i ng any f i r e i ns i de it ( pgs. 2 2 , 2 3 ) . He di d not hear
t h a t MILUS set up a machinegun and s hot ever yt hi ng i n t h e
v i l l a g e t h a t moved (pg. 47) . He saw C Company t h a t ni ght a t
the l a a ge r s i t e (pg. 2 0 ) . He di d not s ee any ARVN mi l i t a r y
wi t h them, and he d i d not hear any f i r i n g i n t he a r e a t h a t
ni ght (pg. 2 0 ) . Ei ght o r ni ne Vietnamese were kept i n t h e
per i met er , but he di d not see anyt hi ng unusual happen (pg.21) .
b. Act i ons on t h e 17t h.
GUTHRIE remembered TAYLOR bei ng wounded by a mine
on t h e morning of t he 17t h (pg. 23) . A t t h e t i me t he wi t nes s
was moving t oward t h e br i dge t o di sarm it ( pgs. 2 3 , 24, 28) .
They r ecei ved s ni pe r f i r e a few mi nut es a f t e r t h e mine
expl oded (pgs. 25, 27) . A t t h a t t i m e t he wi t nes s was about
halfway acr os s t h e br i dge ( ps . 2 9 ) . The f i r e was r et ur ned Q
i n an exchange t h a t l a s t e d f i v e o r t e n mi nut es (pgs. 25,
27, 28) . A gunshi p came i n and made one o r two nor t h- sout h
pas s es ( pgs. 28, 2 9 ) . Some char ges were s e t of f by o t h e r
EOD men on t he ot he r s i d e of the br i dge al ong a t r a i l i n
or der t o det onat e mines o r booby t r a p s i n t he a r e a (pgs. 30,
31) . The wi t nes s r et ur ned t o t he t h i r d pl at oon (pg. 3 2 ) .
Tne pl at oon went acr os s t he br i dge , s e t up a per i met er and
wai t ed f o r about two hour s (pg. 33) . H e di d not r e c a l l moving
s out h, and he t hought t h a t t h e i r l a a ge r s i t e t h a t ni ght w a s
i n t h e a r e a of t h e br i dge (pg. 34) . He di d not remember any
det ai nees s t a yi ng i n t he a r e a t h a t ni ght (pg. 3 6 ) . While
he r e c a l l e d a r esuppl y he l i c opt e r , he di d not t hi nk t h a t it
br ought i n a r esuppl y of demol i t i ons (pg. 3 6 ) .
c. Act i ons on t he 18t h.
He d i d not r e c a l l B Company r e j oi ni ng h i s pl at oon
on t he 18t h, nor d i d he remember s eei ng any Navy s hi ps o r
Vietnamese mi l i t a r y per sonnel (pg. 39 ) . He r e c a l l e d f i ndi ng
t he body of a woman t h a t morning who was bur i ed by some of
t he men i n t h e pl at oon (pgd. 37, 3 8 ) . He r e c a l l e d moving nor t h
t o a l a r ge v i l l a g e where t hey s pent most of t h e day roundi ng
up r e s i de nt s ( pgs. 39-41). H e di d not remember a MEDCAP
team (pg. 4 0 ) , nor d i d he r e c a l l a wounded woman bei ng
br ought i n (pg. 4 4 ) . H e d i d not s e e any i n t e r p r e t e r s o r M I
per sonnel a t t h e v i l l a g e (pg. 4 0 ) . That ni ght t hey r ecei ved
an or de r t o f i r e M-79 rounds out s i de t h e per i met er
( GUTHRIE) 2 SUM APP T-298
ever y 30 mi nut es (pg. 4 4 ) . Lat er t hey r ecei ved a mor t ar
a t t a c k and MI LUS was k i l l e d (pgs. 4 0 , 43) . The next morning
he went o u t of t h e per i met er and t h e EOD men wi t h him blew
up a dud 81 mrn round and two 105 rounds (pgs. 4 0 , 42, 4 3 ) ..
d. Obser vat i ons dur i ns t h e oper at i on.
Except f o r t he woman he saw on t he 18t h, he s a w no
bodi es and no f r e s h gr aves (pg. 45). H e d i d not hear about
anyone i n t h e f i r s t pl at oon s hoot i ng up t h e v i l l a g e on t h e
16t h (pg. 47). He di d not see o r he a r about Vietnamese bei ng
t or t ur e d by U. S . o r ARVN mi l i t a r y per s onnel , b u t he s a w a
capt ai n ques t i on some Vietnamese (pg. 46 1 .
4. I N Q U I R I E AFTER THE ASSAULT.
GUTHRI E d i d not know t h a t an i nve s t i ga t i on wa s made
of t he oper at i on (pg. 45). H e knew of no one who w a s
quest i oned about it (pg. 45) . He hear d no rumors t h a t
c i v i l i a n s had been unneces s ar i l y k i l l e d by e i t h e r B o r
C Company (pgs. 45, 43). H e di d not know t h a t t he r e w a s
a l a r ge body count on t h i s oper at i on (pg. 45) . H e w a s never
t o l d not t o di s c us s t he unnecessary k i l l i n g of c i v i l i a n s
by Task Force Barker (pg. 46) .
a. o r f i v e pounds of TNT were needed t o blow up
a normal -si ze bunker (pg. 5 ) . A normal -si ze bunker w a s
10 f e e t deep, f our t o six f e e t wi de, and f our f e e t hi gh
(pg. 5 ) . Si nce t h e purpose was t o cave t h e bunkers i n ,
t ne char ges would be pl aced on t op of them (pg. 6 ) . Usual l y
EOD per sonnel were c a l l e d when peopl e wanted bunkers blown
up (pg. 8) . He was t h e . onl y man i n B Company t r a i ne d i n
EOD (pg. 2 7 ) .
b. While mar i j uana was used, he doubt ed itw a s used
dur i ng t h e oper at i ons (pgs. 46, 47) . Capt ai n MICHLES t o l d
t ne company about t he adver se e f f e c t s of mar i j uana (pg. 4 7 ) .
(GUTHRIE)
SUM APP T-298
EXHIBITS
EXHI BI T
DESCRIPTION NOTES
' m
PAGES
W l t had n o t s e e n
be f or e .
15
MACV Card "The Enemy I n
Wit naa n o t s e e n
Your Hands"
be f or e .
15
Man he saw c a p t a i n
_Mi . scel l aneous Scene t a l k i n q t o . 1 21
W i t d i d n o t see the1
Mi s cel l aneous Scene gr oup.
21
-
s e e i nq t h i s l o c a t i o n 21
s e e i ng peopl e b e f o r e 22
Looks l i k e o l d man
i n P- 18. 22
I d e n t i f i e d onl y
P-23 I ~ i s c e l l a n e o u s Scene 1 CPT MICHLES. 1 22
1 W i t saw Vi et namesel
ne a r pe r i me t e r o f 19
v i l l a g e .
W i t d i d n o t re-
cogni ze anyt hi ng
20
i n phot o.
I
W i t d i d n o t re-
P-214 Mi s cel l aneous Scene
cogni ze anyone.
45
4
SUM APP T-298
(The hear i ng reconvened a t 1007 hour s , 2 February
1970. )
RCDR: The f ol l owi ng named per sons a r e pr es ent : COL
WILSON, LTC NOLL , and MAJ THOMAS.
The f i r s t wi t nes s i s M r . Jimmie W. GUTHRI E.
(MR GUTHRI E was c a l l e d as a wi t ne s s , was sworn,
and t e s t i f i e d a s f ol l ows : )
Pl eas e s t a t e your f u l l name, occupat i on, and resi-
dence.
A. My name i s Jimmie W. GUTHRI E. I l i v e i n Alamogordo,
New Mexico, and I ' m a computer oper at or .
COL WILSON: M r . GUTHRI E, we gave you our Exhi bi t M- 8 1 which
is our gener al i nf or mat i on f o r wi t nes s es appear i ng bef or e In-
t er vi ew Te a m C. Have you r ead t h a t ?
A. Yes, s i r , I have.
Q. Do you have any ques t i ons on t h a t ?
A. No, si r , I don' t .
Q I would j u s t l i k e t o emphasize t h a t t h i s is an
i nt er vi ew team of General PEERS' committee and t h a t we are
des i gnat ed t o i nve s t i ga t e pr i mar i l y t he wi t nes s es from B/ 4/ 3.
W e have no a ut hor i t y t o make f i ndi ngs and recommendations.
Thi s i s h i s pr er ogat i ve. I t i s pos s i bl e t h a t ot he r members
of h i s t e a m may come i n her e and ask you ques t i ons dur i ng t h i s
i nt er vi ew. I f s o , I ' l l i d e n t i f y them t o you. There a r e t hr e e
members of t h i s t e a m . M r . WALSH is a c i v i l i a n at t or ney. He
is a t anot her i nt e r r oga t i on, and he may come back down i n a
s h o r t whi l e. He has been appoi nt ed by t he Secr et ar y of t he
Ar my t o assi st Gener al PEERS. Col onel NOLL and myself a r e on
t h i s board. A l l t hr e e of us have a ut hor i t y t o ques t i on you.
Major THOMAS is t h e r ecor der . Have you di s cus s ed t h i s opera-
t i o n wi t h anyone from your u n i t s i n c e you came back from V i e t -
nam?
(GUTHRIE) 1
APP T-298
A. N o , s i r , I h a v e n ' t . I d i d n ' t even know t h i s t h i n g
happened whi l e I was t h e r e . I t hought it happened a f t e r I g o t
out . Thi s i s when I he a r d about it.
Q. What was your assi gnment i n March of 1968?
A. EOD.
Q Ordnance d i s p o s a l ?
(Nod i s i n t h e a f f i r ma t i v e . )
Was t h a t a TOE job o r was t h i s an a d d i t i o n a l dut y?
A. Thi s was i n wi t h t h e company. They asked f o r
vol unt e e r s and I went t o s c hool i n H a w a i i f o r EOD men. I
vol unt e e r e d f o r it.
Q. What was your j ob?
A. Thi s w a s s t i l l wi t h t h e company?
Q. Thi s was, ,I t h i n k , an a d d i t i o n a l c a p a b i l i t y .
Di dn' t your MOS cal l f o r somet hi ng b e s i d e s EOD? '
A. Ri ght , 11 Bravo.
Q What i s t h a t ?
A. An i nf ant r yman.
Q And how many d e mo l i t i o n i s t s d i d t he y have i n a '
squad when t he y s e n t you a l l t o t h i s s c hool i n Hawai i .
A. W e l l , i n t h e company, si r , t h e r e was j u s t about 10
of us.
Q - Did it br eak o u t s o many p e r pl a t oon?
A. The onl y ones I know, si r , came o u t of our company.
Q. And how l ong was t h i s s c hool ?
A. About 2 months .
(GUTHRIE) Z
APP T-298
Q Thi s was concer ned wi t h or dnance d i s p o s a l and
de mol i t i on?
A. Ri ght .
Q Was t h i s r un by t h e br i ga de o r d i v i s i o n o r by some
o t h e r i n s t a l l a t i o n ?
A. I d o n ' t know t h a t , s i r . There w e r e ser vi cemen o u t
t h e r e . I d o n ' t know i f t hey was r un by t h e br i ga de or what .
Q. What was t h e pr i mar y pur pose of t h i s c our s e , de-
s t r u c t i o n of mi nes and booby t r a p s ?
A. I b e l i e v e s o , si r . They never d i d s a y. They s a i d
t he y pr obabl y woul d need some EOD men.
Q Did t h i s a l s o i nc l ude i n s t r u c t i o n s on t h e de s t r uc -
t i o n of bunker s and f i e l d i n s t a l l a t i o n s ?
A. y e s , si r , it d i d .
Q. I n t h a t p a r t i c u l a r t ype of i n s t r u c t i o n , d i d t he y
g i v e you a set of pr ocedur es t o go t hr ough when you w e r e i n a
haml et t h a t you h a d n ' t been i n b e f o r e o r was s t r a n g e t o you,
and you w e r e i n s t r u c t e d t o demol i sh t h e underground i n s t a l l a -
t i o n s , t u n n e l s , abut ment s, o r what ever you want t o cal l them.
Was t h e r e a pr ocedur e i n which you w e r e i n s t r u c t e d a s t o how
t h i s was t o be done?
A. Not e x a c t l y , si r . The onl y t h i n g t he y would s a y
was : " H e r e ' s a h o l e , I want you t o blow it. " The pl a t oon
would go i n , c l e a r t h e a r e a , make s u r e t h e r e w a s no c i v i l i a n s
o r anybody ar ound, and I would j u s t go i n and blow it.
Q I n o t h e r words you wer e i n s t r u c t e d - - i t was n o t
your r e s p o n s i b i l i t y t o s e e t h a t t h e t h i n g was c l e a r e d ?
A. No, si r , n o t a t t h e t i m e . The onl y t i m e I made
s u r e it w a s c l e a r e d was b e f o r e I de t ona t e d it.
Q What d i d you do t he n, j u s t h o l l e r : "Fire i n t h e
h o l e " ?
( GUTHRI E) APP T-298
A. W e l l , I would walk ar ound, check a l l my char ges I
set, l ook down and make s u r e nobody was t h e r e , and t he n I ' d
y e l l : " Fi r e i n t h e hol e . "
Q Le t 1$ d e a l wi t h a bunker , whi c h most of t h e
b u i l d i n g s have. They check t h a t bunker and you are goi ng t o
de s t r oy it. Do you go down i n t h e r e and p l a c e t h e s e char ges
o r are t hey pl aced on t op?
A. I ns i de .
Q= How f a r i n s i d e ?
A. W e l l , t h a t depends how f a r it goes i n , si r .
You' ve got t o st art from t h e back and work o u t .
Q. You have t o go a l l t h e way t hr ough .it?
A. J u s t about i f y o u ' r e goi ng t o de s t r oy it compl et el y.
Q- Before you go down i n t o t h a t bunker , i s t h e pl a t oon
supposed t o clear i t ?
. .
A. They had a coupl e of men vol unt e e r a s t u n n e l r a t s .
Q. Who w e r e t he y?
A. One of them was FI ELDS and a not he r was a new guy.
I c a n ' t remember h i s name. H e was br ought i n .
Q. FIELDS was a t unne l r a t .
A. When t hey coul d g e t him t o go i n .
Q. If you j u s t had two of them and one w a s r e l u c t a n t
t o go i n t h e r e , t h e r e wa s n ' t much c l e a r i n g done, w a s t h e r e ?
A. I d o n ' t know. W e never had much t r o u b l e . You'd
pr obabl y pick up a coupl e more now and t he n who would g e t t h e
ur ge t o go down i n f h e r e and s e e what i t ' s l i k e . Tha t ' s where
you us ua l l y pick them up, j u s t curiosity.
4
APP T-298
I
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
Q. A l l r i g h t . They s a y , " Her e' s a h o l e ; blow it. "
You assumeby t h a t t h e t h i n g i s c l e a r e d andgo i n t o it. You
have t o ifyou p u t your char ges down i n t h e r e ?
A. Th a t ' s r i g h t , si r .
Q. You go i n t h e r e and s e t your char ges a nd' de t ona t e
it,r i g h t ?
A. Ri ght .
0. For a nor mal - si ze bunker how much de mol i t i ons are
we t a l k i n g about ?
A. Demol i t i on team?
Q. N o , how much de mol i t i ons w e r e you p u t t i n g i n t h e r e ?
A. It a l l depends on what s i z e h o l e you got .
Q. Theaver age s i z e .
A, Usually about4 o r 5 pounds.
Q. 4 or 5 pounds?
A. OfTNT.
Q- Coul d you gi ve me t h e di mensi ons of t h e h o l e t h a t
c oul d be demol i shed by 4 o r 5 pounds of TNT?
A. I s u r e c o u l d n ' t .
Q. Coul d you g i v e me the di mensi ons of an aver age-
s i z e bunker .
A. Oh, I f i g u r e about 10 f e e t deep, anywhere from 4
t o 6 feetwi de, and 4 f e e t hi gh.
Q . 4 f e e t hi gh. Four t o 6 f e e t wi de and 10 f e e t
under thes u r f a c e . Is t h a t what you mean by deep?
A* Ri ght , sir.
(GUTHRIE)
APP T-298
FOROFFICIALUSEONLY
Q 10 f e e t from t h e t o p of t he s u r f a c e , from t he s ur -
f a c e of t h e ground, i s t h e t o p of t h e bunker.
A. Ri ght , t h i s i s t o p i n s i d e .
Q Then g o t a not he r 4 o r 5 f e e t which i s t h e
h e i g h t of the bunker .
A. Ri ght .
Q . Then you' ve g o t a wi dt h of what ?
A. 4 f e e t i n s i d e . 4 t o 6 f e e t i n s i d e .
Q. You c a n ' t g e t many peopl e i n t h e r e .
A. No, you c a n ' t . Mostly j u s t t h e c i v i l i a n s t h a t l i v e
i n t h a t house.
Q You can demol i sh t h a t wi t h about 4 o r 5 pounds of
TNT ?
A. P r e t t y , w e l l , s o you c a n ' t g e t i n s i d e of it anyway.
I d o n ' t know what it does f o r damage i n t h e i n s i d e . I never
have been a b l e t o g e t back i n s i d e of one.
\
Q - Where do you pl a c e t h e s e char ges? What a r e you
doi ng, s e a l i n g o f f t h e e nt r a nc e ?
A. J u s t cave i t i n i s what w e k e t r y i n g - t o do,
Pl a nt e d them most l y i n t h e s i d e and i n t h e t op, and t he n g e t
one on t op.
Q. You p u t char ges on t op?
A. I f I can. I f you coul d g e t them t o mount up t h e r e ,
you us ua l l y p u t one up t h e r e .
Q. Now, nor mal l y you would go i n t o t h e back. You s ay
you ' d work from t h e back.
A. You would go a s f a r a s you coul d t o t h e back and
s t a r t back t h e r e , about - - l eave a coupl e f e e t from t h e end be-
cause you' r e n o t goi ng t o blow t h a t end anyway. I t was p r e t t y
w e l l cover ed up.
(GUTHRIE) 6
APP T-298
Q s And put your char ges on t h e f l oor ?
A. No, I put them on t he wa l l .
Q = Halfway up?
A. About t h a t .
Q- And j u s t work out from t he r e .
A. Ri ght .
Q What would you do i n t h e ent r ance? What would you
do t h e r e , anyt hi ng?
A. No, not e xa c t l y. I ' d s a y about anot her 3 o r 4
f e e t i ns i de t h e r e you s e t t h e l a s t char ge. You s t r i n g your
w i r e on o u t o r you' ve got a t i m e f us e f o r it. W e us ual l y
used el ect ri c b l a s t i n g caps o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
Q. Now, how many t i mes do you g e t t h i s r equi r ement .
W e hear about peopl e r unni ng around wi t h one-hal f pound of TNT
and some composi t i on C wrapped around it and a b l a s t i n g cap i n
it, and throwing t he s e down i n t he bunker s. Where does t hat
f a l l ?
A. I don' t know. I never run acr os s t h a t .
Q. I was goi ng t o say have you ever seen them do
t h a t , t hrowi ng somet hi ng i n a bunker. What coul d it be , a
f r a g gr enade, r i g h t ? You d i d n ' t have any concussi on gr enades,
di d you?
A. Yes, si r, we had t hos e. I guess it was n' t e i t h e r .
Concussi on gr enades, a r e you t a l k i n g about when t hey h i t t he
ground?
Q. I mean t he ones t h a t were expl os i ve and no--
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) Not t h a t I know of .
Q e Thi s i s what it sounded l i k e , t hey were wrappi ng
TNT. But normal l y t h i s was n' t done, was it. Did you ever see
it?
7
APP T-298
A. I never r un a c r os s it. I never d i d .
Q. So when t hey want ed t o blow a bunker t he y would
have t o cal l one of t h e EOD peopl e. Now, was t h i s a p r e t t y
b i g p r o j e c t i n t h e s e haml et s . Would t hey go i n t h e r e and blow
most of t h e s e bunker s?
A. I t hi nk I mi ght have blown one.
Q. One bunker ?
A. One bunker , and most l y ' I blew mi nes.
Q. And t h i s one bunker t h a t you bl ew, where was t h a t ?
A. Th a t ' s a good que s t i on.
Q You don ' t remember?
A. I d o n ' t remember a t a l l . I t was on t h e o u t s i d e of
a v i l l a g e , j u s t a s we come i n .
Q - W e l l , nor mal l y when you went i n , your p a r t i c u l a r
job i n t h i s p a r t i c u l a r f i e l d was t h e d e s t r u c t i o n of mines and
bombs and t h i n g s l i k e t h i s . I t d o e s n ' t t a k e much of a c ha r ge ,
does i t ?
A. No, it d o n ' t . J u s t enough t o br eak t h e c a s i ng of
it.
Q. You d o n ' t have t o c a r r y a heavy l oa d of demol i t i ons
wi t h you, do you?
A. No, I us ua l l y c a r r i e d about 10 o r 15 pounds.
Q Did you have one of t h e s e l i t t l e de mol i t i on bags?
A. No, I had t o scr ounge mine up. I had t o use a
cl aymore bag most l y and my pack.
Q And where d i d you c a r r y your de t ona t or s ?
A. I n my pocket , my s h i r t pocket .
Q- I n a l i t t l e , wooden box?
(GUTKRIE) 8
APP T-298
A. Ri ght .
Q A l i t t l e , r e d, wooden box.
A. Y e s , I guess i t would be r e d , ki nd of l i g h t col -
or ed.
Q. And you s ay you pr i ma r i l y used el ect r i c de t ona t i on.
A. Ri ght , si r.
Q Did you have a b l a s t i n g machine wi t h you?
A. No , si r. Where I g o t my e l e c t r i c i t y from was from
e i t h e r a b a t t e r y o f f a r a d i o o r from a de t ona t or o f f a cl ay-
more mine.
a
Q. Those machines a r e somet hi ng else t o c a r r y. As I
under st and i t , B Company a t any r a t e a s a r u l e d i d n ' t normal l y
go i n and j u s t r e a l l y e l i mi n a t e bunker s?
A. No, and a s f a r a s I know t h a t ' s t h e onl y one w e
des t r oyed.
Q. If t h e r e were any e xpl os i ve s be i ng thrown i n t h e
bunker s, it was f o r casual t y- pr oduci ng pur poses o r t o clear
them?
A. If t h e r e was somet hi ng down i n t h e r e and t he y
c oul dn' t g e t it o u t , t hey always would t r y t o g e t it,o u t t h e
b e s t way t h a t t he y coul d. Af t e r t h a t I d o n ' t know. I f t hey
would t hrow a char ge i n it, t he y would more o r less come out .
Q Was it normal pr' ocedure? Was t h e r e any i n s t r u c -
t i o n s gi ven about t he s e ? Were you supposed t o h o l l e r anyt hi ng
f i r s t ?
A. Yes, you' d us ua l l y h o l l e r q u i t e a b i t . Some of
the guys knew t h e Vietnamese l anguage and t r i e d t o g e t them
o u t of t h e r e . If t hey know t h e r e a r e c i v i l i a n s down t h e r e ,
t hey would g e t them o u t . But i f . t he y know t h e r e a r e VC down
there, t he y won' t go down a f t e r them. Th e y ' l l g e t them o u t
somehow and de s t r oy t h e bunker .
(GUTHRIE) 9
APP T-298
Q W e l l , t hey ' r e n o t r e a l l y de s t r oyi ng t h e bunker ,
t hey 're t hr owi ng a handgrenade.
A. N o , n o t t h a t way.
Q. How d i d t he y de s t r oy i t ?
A. They blew it.
Q - W e l l , you onl y d i d t h a t once.
A. I ' m s a yi ng t h a t i f t he y knew t h e r e was VC i n t h e r e ,
and a f t e r t hey would g e t them o u t , w e would go back i n t h e r e
and de s t r oy i t and see i f t hey had anyt hi ng hi dden down i n
t h e r e .
LTC NOLL: What w a s t h e na t ur e of t h e aver age bunker of a
home? W a s it down i n t h e ground a coupl e of f e e t or was it
j u s t sandbags?
A. Some of them were down i n t h e ground wi t h heavy
l ogs and d i r t . Some of them w e r e down i n t h e ground j u s t a
l i t t l e b i t wi t h l ogs . They w e r e p r e t t y t h i c k .
COL WILSON: What was your pl a t oon, your squad assi gnment ?
A. On t h i s day?
Q. On 1 6 March.
A. I ' m n o t s u r e . I d o n ' t even know where I was t h a t
day.
Q You w e r e i n t h e 3d Pl at oon, we r e n ' t you. You d o n ' t
know which squad?
A. I wa s n' t r e a l l y as s i gned t o any squad. I was j u s t
up t h e r e by t h e l i e u t e n a n t . I ' d s t a y behi nd t h e FO.
Q You w e r e i n t h e he a dqua r t e r s group. Okay, l e t ' s
be s u r e t h a t we' ve g o t t h i s ope r a t i on f i xe d i n your mind be-
f o r e we go t o any que s t i ons on it. Thi s day t h a t w e ' r e
t a l k i n g about , when t h e ope r a t i on t ook p l a c e , was t he day t h a t
Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN was k i l l e d . Do you remember t h a t ?
(GUTHRIE) 10
APP T-298
A. Y e s , s i r , I do, very w e l l .
Q. A l l r i g h t . That i s t h e day we a r e t a l k i n g about .
That is t h e ope r a t i on w e ar e t a l k i n g about . La t e r on i n t h a t
ope r a t i on, MILUS was k i l l e d . TAYLOR w a s wounded. Now t h i s
ought t o f i x t h e t i m e .
A. I remember t h e day w e l l when Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN
w a s k i l l e d .
Q- One que s t i on be f or e I g e t t o t h i s b r i e f i n g . Were
you e v e r gi ven a c l a s s a t any t i m e which was concerned wi t h
t h e l e g a l a s p e c t s of o f f i c i a l o r d e r s , a s t o whet her t h e r e was
a t ype or de r . whi c h d i d n ' t have t o be obeyed because it was il-
l e g a l ? Did you e ve r he a r of anyt hi ng l i k e t h i s ?
A. No, si r.
Q I t mi ght have come connect ed wi t h t h e Geneva Con-
ve nt i on o r somet hi ng l i k e t h a t .
A. I he a r d t h a t q u i t e o f t e n b u t not hi ng t o t h e o t h e r
e f f e c t .
Q. Not hi ng about t h e i l l e g a l i t y of or de r s .
A. No, n o t t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q On t h e 15t h of March, whlch was t h e day be f or e t h e
combat a s s a u l t , who t o l d you and what d i d t hey s ay about t h i s
ope r a t i on be i ng conduct ed f o r t h e ne xt day?
A. W e l l , i f anybody would have t o l d us , it pr obabl y
would have been Li e ut e na nt LEWIS. I d o n ' t remember e x a c t l y
what he s a i d .
Q You had a pe r i od t h e r e where you had an NCO r unni ng
the pl a t oon, t oo.
A. W e l l , I d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t because 3d Pl at oon never
d i d l o s e anybody u n t i l w e l o s t Li e ut e na nt LEWIS. As I can re-
cal l , we had a not he r l i e u t e n a n t t h a t came ove r wi t h us. I
can ' t remember h i s name.
LTC NOLL: Li e ut e na nt CARTER?
CGUTHRIE) 11
APP T-298
A. Ri ght , si r , Li e ut e na nt CARTER. A s f a r a s I know,
he never had l e f t t h e pl a t oon.
COL WILSON: Now, you' ve g o t t o remember one t h i n g , w e ' r e
t a l k i n g about a pe r i od of 3 o r 4 days a t t h e most . Peopl e
di s a ppe a r f o r 4 o r 5 days and you may n o t even r e a l i z e t h e y ' r e
gone. I i magi ne he coul d go on R&R and you mi ght n o t even
know about it.
A. Th a t ' s p o s s i b l e .
Q. A t t h e t i m e t h i s o p e r a t i o n t ook p l a c e , you d i d n ' t
have an o f f i c e r a s pl a t oon l e a d e r a s f a r a s we lve been a b l e t o
det er mi ne. But you t h i n k t h e pl a t oon l e a d e r nor mal l y b r i e f e d .
Did he nor mal l y b r i e f t h e whole pl at oon o r d i d he b r i e f t h e
squad l e a d e r s ?
A. W e l l , l'ms u r e t h a t he d i d i f he t o l d us about it,
because he w a s p r e t t y good about g e t t i n g us a l l t o g e t h e r and
b r i e f i n g us a t one t i m e and a s ki ng que s t i ons .
Q. You d o n ' t remember anybody sayi ng: "Wel l , w e ' r e
goi ng t o l e a v e i n t h e morning. We're goi ng t o have n i n e h e l i -
c o p t e r s o u t h e r e . You' l l t a k e h e l i c o p t e r s o and s o. We ' l l be
on t h e second l i f t . W e ' 11 t a k e 2-days r a t i o n s , " o r words t o
t h i s e f f e c t ?
A. I can remember t h i s I t hi nk.
Q9 Who t o l d you?
A. One l i e u t e n a n t , b u t I s u r e c o u l d n ' t t e l l you who.
H e was t h e one t h a t u s u a l l y t o l d us what w e w e r e goi ng t o do,
how we w e r e goi ng t o do it,and what we w e r e goi ng t o do a f t e r
we g o t t h e r e ,
Q.
he squad l e a d e r s d o n ' t do t h i s ?
A. Y e s , s i r , t hey ao. I f t h e l i e u t e n a n t d o e s n ' t t a l k
t o us a l l a t one t i m e , he would j u s t cal l i n t h e pl a t oon ser-
ge a nt s and squad l e a d e r s and t a l k t o them. Th e y ' l l come back
o u t and t e l l us.
Q- Now, on t h i s p a r t i c u l a r t i m e you d o n ' t remember
what was - -
(GUTHRIE) 12 APP T-298
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) What was s a i d about it? No, I s u r e
d o n ' t . I d o n ' t know i f he br ought us a l l i n o r t he squad
l e a de r s went up and t a l k e d t o him and came back o u t . Usual l y
i f t h e l i e u t e n a n t coul d g e t us a l l together, he would j u s t as
soon g e t us a l l t o g e t h e r and ask us que s t i ons about it.
Q = Thi s p a r t i c u l a r ope r a t i on was an ope r a t i on which
i ncl uded t h e e n t i r e t a s k f o r c e , a l o t of h e l i c o p t e r s on it.
I ' m j u s t t r y i n g t o f i g u r e out how I can r e c a l l t h i s b r i e f i n g
t o you. I ' m t r y i n g t o f i n d o u t what you w e r e t o l d be f or e you
went i n t h e r e , a s opposed t o what happened a f t e r you g o t i n
t h e r e . I want t o s e p a r a t e t h l s because we are goi ng t o revi ew
a few t h i n g s t h a t happenea. Let me ask you some s p e c i f i c
que s t i ons . Were t h e r e any or de r s gi ven concer ni ng t h e de-
s t r u c t i o n of t h e hoot ches and food stock?
A. N o , si r , n o t t h a t I r e c a l l . The a r t i l l e r y p r e t t y
w e l l t ook care of t h a t .
Q - What a r t i l l e r y ?
A. The f i r e s uppor t .
Q. What, bur ni ng hoot ches?
A. As I can recal l t h e r e wa s n' t anyt hi ng l e f t a f t e r
the f i r e s t r i k e , a f t e r t h e whi t e phosphorous g o t t hr ough.
Q. Did you see any wh i t e phosphorous?
A. I 'rn al most s u r e t hey f i r e d some from o f f t h e h i l l .
Q - I n o t h e r words, you r e c e i ve d no s p e c i f i c o r d e r s
about --t he pl a t oon r e c e i ve d no s p e c i f i c or de r s about bur ni ng
the houses?
A. No, s i r , n o t t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q How about t h e destruction of l i v e s t o c k ?
A. N o , si r , we never d i d t ouch any l i v e s t o c k .
Q. You never d i d ?
A. Not t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q What was t h e normal pr ocedur e when you went i n t o
what mi ght be c ons i de r e d .a h o s t i l e a r e a on t he d e s t r u c t i o n of
houses and s o f o r t h ?
A. W e l l , us ua l l y w e d i d n ' t bot he r the houses. W e
d i d n ' t h u r t anyt hi ng e xc e pt f o r s h e l t e r f o r t h e o t h e r peopl e.
W e d i d n ' t de s t r oy them unl e s s we j u s t had t o , and a s f a r a s I
know we never d i d de s t r oy any. A t l e a s t I d o n ' t know anyt hi ng
about it i f t he y di d. I t ' s p o s s i b l e t hey d i d some. Some of
t h e peopl e coul d have de s t r oye d them.
9- Did you know what t h e enemy s i t u a t i o n was i n t h i s
a r e a o r what t he y t o l d you i t was?
A. Y e s , si r . They t o l d us we w e r e goi ng t o g e t
dropped i n t o - a h o t LZ, and w e ' d r e c e i v e f i r e as soon a s we
t ouched ground o r be f or e . W e d i d r e c e i v e f i r e , b u t it wasn ' t
much.
Q They t o l d you you were goi ng i n t o a h o t LZ?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q What was supposed t o be t h e r e ?
A. They r e a l l y d i d n ' t s a y t h a t I can r e c a l l , j u s t
t h a t we w e r e goi ng t o be dropped i n t o a h o t LZ. Ther e probab-
l y would be VC t h e r e I assumed.
Q. Do you know what t h e pl a t oons of t h e company, what
each pl a t oon wa s supposed t o do? Did anybody t e l l you about
that?
A. No, t he y d i d n ' t .
Q Do you know what each of t h e squads i n your pl a -
t oon was supposed t o do?
A. W e l l , sir--
Q . ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) I d o n ' t know t h a t t he y had any
assi gnment l i k e t h a t .
A. W e l l , us ua l l y you would j u s t g e t down and' g e t a l l
your d i f f e r e n t s quads , and t he y had d i f f e r e n t l i t t l e a r e a s t o
(GUTHRIE) 1 4 APP T-298
FOR OFFICIALUSE ONLY
go t o . When w e would g e t t h e r e we would g e t or gani zed, and
t he pl at oon would t e l l you which di r e qt i on t o go. Tha t ' s t he
way it us ual l y worked.
Q. Thi s i s Exhi bi t M-2 and i s e n t i t l e d "Nine Rul es. "
It i s a f a c s i mi l e . Have you e ve r seen t h i s car d?
A. I don' t t hi nk s o , s i r . I might have a t one t i me,
b u t I coul dn' t r e c a l l it.
Q. Thi s i s Exhi bi t M- 3 , anot her f a c s i mi l e of a car d.
Have you e ve r s een t h a t car d e n t i t l e d "The Enemy i n Your Hands"?
A. I remember s eei ng some ki nd of car d, b u t I c a n ' t
remember i f t h a t ' s t h e one o r not .
Q- You. don' t remember i f you were i s s ued t he s e car ds ?
A. N o , si r , I c a n ' t r e c a l l i f we were. I remember
s e e i ng some ki nd of car d t h a t was i s s ue d, but I c a n ' t say i f
t he s e a r e t he ones o r not * A s a mat t er of f a c t , I)d o n ' t know
what t he car ds were t h a t were i s s ue d t o us , but I do remember
s e e i ng somet hi ng l i k e it. I t coul d have been t h e one.
Q. We're goi ng i n t o the oper at i on now, and I want t o
aska coupl e of ques t i ons be f or e we show you some phot ographs.
D i d your e c e i ve any f i r e p r i o r t o l andi ng?
A. No, si r , nott h a t I know of .
Q. Were you on t he f i r s t l i f t or t he second l i f t ?
A. I be l i e ve it was on t h e second l i f t . I ' m not s ur e ,
e i t h e r thefi rst or t he second l i f t . I know t h e r e w e r e s t i l l
some more choppers t o come i n a f t e r we di d.
Q. There were onl y two l i f t s .
A. I t must have been t he f i r s t one.
Q - Were your doorgunners f i r i n g as you approached
thel andi ng zone?
A. I don' t be l i e ve our s was. They coul d have been.
W e wer en' t on t h e out s i de chopper, we were on t h e i ns i de . I
(GUTHRIE) 15 APPT-298
FOR OFFICIALUSEONLY
d o n ' t b e l i e v e he was f i r i n g . Of cour s e, he coul d have been.
I j u s t never not i c e d it.
Q- Did you r e c e i ve f i r e a f t e r you h i t t h e ground?
A. Y e s , si r , w e di d. I t h i n k it was a f t e r a l i t t l e
b i t and we r e c e i ve d some f i r e . '
Q Which d i r e c t i o n was it coming from do you know?
A. Faci ng Upt i ght on a h i l l ' coming from our r i g h t .
Q - Th a t ' s from t h e s e a .
A. Sea, r i g h t , goi ng t owards Upt i ght Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN
wa s k i l l e d on t h e r i g h t s i d e , s o it had t o be on t h e l e f t s i d e .
Q The f i r e was from t h e l e f t ?
A. Ri ght .
Q. That was coming from t h e w e s t . C Company was
doi ng an awf ul l o t of f i r i n g ove r t h e r e . Do you suppose t h a t
t h i s coul d have been C Company's f i r e ?
A. W e l l , I d o n ' t know, si r . Ther e was a company
ove r t h e r e and came t o us l a t e r . I d o n ' t know i f t h i s was
C Company o r n o t .
Q I ' l l show you how t h i s ope r a t i on devel oped, and
w e ' l l g e t a phot o o u t and r e c or d some d e t a i l s .
( Col one l -WILSON o r i e n t e d the wi t ne s s us i ng Exhi bi t
MAP-4 and P-168.)
Thi s i s t h e same phot ograph you have j u s t been
o r i e n t e d on. These a r e t h e a c t i v i t i e s t h a t have been r ecor -
ded t o have t a ke n pl a c e . The f i r s t l i f t t ouched down a t
0815. The second l i f t t ouched down a t 0827. Phot o P-206
shows a r o c k e t goi ng i n t o t h e l a ndi ng zone. P-207 shows more
r oc ke t s l a ndi ng i n what was t o be t h e l a ndi ng zone. Do you
r ecal l s e e i n g t h i s p a r t i c u l a r a r e a ? Did you see t h a t from
t h e a i r ? Do you remember t h a t be i ng t h e l a ndi ng zone?
(GUTHRIE) 16
APP T-298
A. No, si r , I s ur e don' t . I t don' t l ook l i k e it a t
a l l r e a l l y . Where I r e c a l l we l anded, it was j u s t f l a t r i c e
paddy, no water, no not hi ng. There wa s n' t a l l t h i s ot he r s t u f f
i n her e. Thi s phot ograph appear s t o be a gr aveyar d.
Q. Now, you s a i d t h a t t h e f i r i n g was coming from t he
w e s t back over i n he r e , and some 1, 200 t o 1,400 m e t e r s from your
l andi ng zone w a s C Company's oper at i on. D o you recall whe-
t h e r t h e r e w a s any- - t hi s f i r i n g t h a t you hear d, whet her t h e r e
wa s any incoming f i r e i n your di r e c t i on? You can normal l y t e l l
i f t h a t s t u f f i s popping around you. Do you r e c a l l ?
A. No, si r , I don' t . I know t h a t we r et ur ned f i r e
back t he r e .
Q- But d i d you s e e anyt hi ng t o f i r e a t ?
A. NO, si r , I d i d n ' t .
Q Okay, you hopped of f t h e he l i c opt e r . You s a i d
s h o r t l y a f t e r t h a t you r ecei ved f i r e ?
A. Y e s .
Q F i r e was r et ur ned i n t h a t di r e c t i on. Was it re-
t ur ned by t h e 1st Pl at oon, 2d Pl at oon, o r what ?
A. 1st Pl at oon d i d f i r e .
Q. Then you moved nor t h and Li eut enant COCHRAN wa s
h i t by a mine?
A. Y e s , he was h i t by a mine.
Q. W e have i ndi c a t e d t h a t t h i s booby t r a p w a s t r i ppe d
at 0845 t h a t morning, and t h e r e were f our wounded wi t h him
i n a ddi t i on t o him. Then a t 0930, which i s 45 mi nut es l at er,
a second booby t r a p was t r i ppe d and t h r e e were wounded.
A. Now, t h i s i s s t i l l i n t h e same ar ea.
Q From what we have been a bl e t o det er mi ne it was
pr obabl y wi t hi n 100 o r 200 meters.
APP T-298
A. Okay.
Q- Now, t h e r e w e r e two h e l i c o p t e r s
t h a t came i n t o
evacuat e t h e s e peopl e. Did you see e i t h e r one of them?
A. I f I ' d s e e n any one of them it pr obabl y would have
been Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN. I ' m not s u r e i f I d i d o r not .
H e was i n the f i r s t group?
H e was i n t h e f i r s t group.
Q. Pos s i bl y one of t h e s e h e l i c o p t e r s coul d have been
t h e command and c o n t r o l s h i p t h a t bel onged t o Col onel BARKER.
You d o n ' t know i f t h i s was?
A. No, I d o n ' t , si r . I woul dn' t know i f I ' d s een it
unl e s s somebody t o l d me .
Q. W e l l , t h i s s h i p , of c our s e , woul dn' t have medi cal
marki ngs on it.
A. I d o n ' t know i f he was t h e one t h a t came i n o r
n o t , si r.
Q I n t h e meantime t h e 1s t Pl at oon moved on down t h e
t r a i l t h a t you c r os s e d and moved on down t oward t h e e a s t and
w a s c r o s s i n g t h a t br i dge . They r e por t e d a t 0 9 5 5 t h a t 12 VC
w e r e k i l l e d , and t he y conduct ed t h e i r ope r a t i ons a f t e r t h a t .
Now, what I ' m i n t e r e s t e d i n i s what i n your p a r t i c u l a r a r e a
occur r ed a f t e r t h e s e wounded w e r e evacuat ed. Af t e r t h e s e two
booby t r a p s w e r e de t ona t e d o r mi nes, whi chever t he y may be ,
pr obabl y mi nes, what happened a f t e r t h a t ? Did you go ove r
t h e r e ? Did you do any or dnance d i s p o s a l o r anyt hi ng a t t h a t
t i me?
Q. Did you s t a y wi t h t h e pl a t oon l e a de r ?
A. Not e x a c t l y wi t h t h e pl a t oon l e a de r . I was o u t
i n f r o n t of him a l i t t l e ways. W e s t a r t e d on our sweep, I
b e l i e v e , a f t e r we t ook c a r e of Li e ut e na nt COCHRAN and h i s
18
APP T-298
men. We s t a r t e d t o sweep out a ways. I'm s u r e we must have
st opped l ong enough, i f t he r e was a chopper t o come i n , t o
set up a per i met er f o r it. W e d i d s t a r t our sweep.
Q. Where d i d you go? Do you know?
A. Ri ght s t r a i g h t t hrough t he v i l l a g e , sweeping on
s o r t of an angl e. We d i d n ' t go r i g h t d i r e c t l y i n t o it.
Q- Wel l , di d you s e t up a command pos t o r somet hi ng
t h a t day, l at er t h a t day?
A. W e set up an out s i de per i met er and s t a ye d t h e r e
f o r a whi l e.
Q. Out si de t he v i l l a g e ?
A. No , t h i s was a f t e r we swept t hr ough, I bel i eve.
Q. Did anyt hi ng happen i n t he v i l l a g e ?
A. N o t t h a t I know of . They pi cked up a few c i v i l -
i ans . I be l i e ve t h e r e were c i v i l i a n s i n t h e r e and I t hi nk we
ques t i oned them. That w a s about . it.
Q. I show you Exhi bi t P- 208. Did you e ve r see t hos e
peopl e?
A. I t hi nk I di d, si r.
Q. Where was t h a t ?
A, -1 be l i e ve itwas j u s t on t he edge of t h e vi l l a ge .
I ' m n o t s ur e , I be l i e ve I di d see them.
Q. Ri ght i n t he a r e a of t h e per i met er ?
A. They.were i ns i de t he per i met er when I 'dseen them,
Q. What happened t o t hos e peopl e?
A. I t hi nk t hey br ought a chopper i n and t ook them
out . I wa s on t he ot he r side. I come over he r e t o pi ck up
(GUTHRIE) 19
APPT-298
some r a t i o n s , and I ' d s e e n some peopl e. I d o n ' t know i f t he s e
w e r e t h e ones o r not .
Q. Were t h e s e by t h e company headquar t er s ?
A. I b e l i e v e it &as . I ' m n o t r e a l s u r e . I t was
c l o s e t o t h e a r e a anyway. I ' d s een them when I was goi ng up
t h a t way.
Q What about P-209? Do you r ecogni ze anyt hi ng i n
t h a t phot ograph?
A. No, s i r , I d o n ' t r e c a l l it e xc e pt it mi ght be
where t h e CP was set up a t .
Q Did you see any ARVN' s o r Vietnamese Nat i onal
Pol i c e come i n t o t h e company t h a t day?
A. NO, si r .
Q. Did you see C Company when t hey l i nke d up?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q. Did you t a l k t o any of them?
A. I mi ght have passed a few words what t h e i r mi ssi on
was on t h e o t h e r s i d e . That was about a l l . I ' m s u r e we t a l -
ked t o them. W e always do when w e see some of t h e o t h e r com-
pani es o u t t h e r e . W e u s u a l l y , when pa s s i ng t hrough; t a l k t o
them a l i t t l e b i t .
Q Did you see any ARVN with1 C Company, Vietnames-e
mi l i t a r y ?
A. No, si r , I d i d n ' t . I onl y s een a few of them.
Q You d i d n ' t see any t h a t day?
Q- Did you h e a r any f i r i n g i n t h e a r e a t h a t ni ght ?
A. N o t t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q-
Did anyt hi ng unusual happen t h a t ni ght t h a t you
can remember?
A. NQ, si r. W e had a f e w c i v i l i a n s wi t h us we woul dn' t
release u n t i l t he morning.
Q. Where were they, i ns i de t he def ens i ve pos i t i on?
A. No, we had them down t he r e . They w e r e down i n
the area we were s e t i n a t , e i g h t or ni ne of them down t he r e .
Q Who w a s wi t h them?
A, The onl y one t h a t was down t he r e wi t h them wa s
the ones t h a t set up a per i met er around this area, around
t he whole CP group.
Q They were i n s i d e t h e per i met er t hen?
Q How many were t he r e ?
A. Ei ght o r ni ne. @
Q- D o you remember s eei ng any VC? P-18?
A. I t hi nk I remember s eei ng t h i s o l d f el l ow back her e.
0. The o l d man f aci ng t he camera i n t he c e nt e r . H e ' s
the one you are t a l k i n g about ?
A. H e mi ght have been one of them. The c a pt a i n w a s
t a l k i n g to t h a t one back t h e r e i f t h a t ' s t he one I ' m t hi nki ng
of . I s a w him. Tha t ' s pos s i bl e .
Q - What about t h i s group? P-19?
A. No.
Q. Did you ever see t h i s l oc a t i on, P-20?
A. I don' t recal l . Thi s must have been where t h e
81' s we r e ' set up at I guess. That ' s t he weapons.
(GUTHRIE) 21
APP T-298
Q What about t h e s e two peopl e i n t h e c e n t e r back
p a r t of t h e phot ogr aph; t h e one wi t hout t h e hel met s t a ndi ng
and t a l k i n g t o t h e l a dy on t h e ground?
Did you e ve r see t hos e
peopl e be f o r e ?
A. I d o n ' t t h i n k s o.
Q How about t h e s e two? Did you e v e r see t hos e m i l i -
t a r y pe r s onne l b e f o r e , P-21?
A. No, si r , n o t t h a t I can r e c a l l .
A. That man, I ' m s u r e I ' v e s e e n t h a t man, b u t I c a n ' t
r e c a l l t h e o t h e r two.
Q You s a y i n. P- 22 phot ogr aph t h e o l d man i s t h e same
a s t h e o l d man i n P-18?
A. H e ' s g o t a bear d. I t l ooks l i k e him. I ' m n o t
s u r e it i s t hough.
.1
Q - P-23?
A. A l l I know t h e r e i s t h e c a p t a i n .
Q MICHLES i s on the l e f t . Have you e v e r s e e n e i t h e r
of t h e s e t w o Vi et namese s o l d i e r s b e f o r e ?
A. No, si r, I h a v e n ' t s e e n them. I f t he y w e r e i n
t h e same uni f or m, t h a t ' s t h e t h i n g . I f t he y w e r e i n t h e same
uni f or m, I pr obabl y would r e c ogni z e them.
LTC NOLL: Did you e v e r de s t r oy any f ood? Did you d e s t r o y
t h a t v i l l a g e t h a t day when you swept i t ?
A. I d o n ' t t h i n k we de s t r oye d a nyt hi ng i n it t h a t
day.
COL WILSON: Did you h e a r any f i r i n g o r e xpl os i ve s i n t h e r e ?
A. Whi l e we was i n s i d e , s i r ?
Q e Ye s .
As I don' t bel i eve we heard any f i r i n g whi l e we was
i ns i de t he vi l l a ge .
LTC NOLL: Was t h a t a pr e t t y s l o w day?
A. You mean enemy-wise?
Q. Yes, what you di d?
A. Y e s , it wa s . There wasnl t much a c t i v i t y a t a l l
t h a t day where we went.
COL WILSON: The next morning t he 1st Pl at oon had one man
wounded on a booby t r a p down t he r e by t he br i dge. That w a s
r epor t ed a t 0 810.
As I t w a s a mine, si r, is what it was. They c a l l e d
it i n and asked me t o come acr oss t he br i dge. As I w a s ap-
proachi ng t he br i dge, he mus t have st epped on it or something
o r pl ayed around wi t h it, and it went of f . H e ' s t he one t h a t
found i t and r epor t ed it, and h e ' s t he one t h a t det onat ed it.
Q. Who?
A. The fel l ow t h a t found it. I c a n ' t remember his
name.
Q - TAYLOR?
A. TAYLOR.
Q - TAYLOR wa s wounded.
A. Ri ght . From what I underst and, he ' s the one t h a t
found it.
Q You mean he found it bef or e he w a s wounded?
A. From what I could f i nd out , he di d. They c a l l e d
us over. They had me come over or s t ar t t o come over.
Q. And t h a t ' s when i t det onat ed?
(GUTHRIE) 23
APP T-298
A. Tha t ' s r i g h t .
Q. And he was messi ng around wi t h i t ?
A. He must have been.
LTC NOLL: Did he l os e h i s bal ance?
A. I d o n ' t know, si r . I w a s j u s t coming acr os s t h e
br i dge o r j u s t approachi ng it when it went o f f .
COL WILSON: Where was t h a t mine?
A. ' Ri ght below t he br i dge.
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) I t w a s of f t o t he s i d e j u s t a l i t t l e
b i t .
Q W a s it on an i n c l i n e o r somet hi ng where somebody
coul d f a l l of f on i t ?
!
A. I don' t be l i e ve it was. I t hi nk it was j u s t bur l e d
i n t he sand.
Q. And how l ong had you been on t h e way up t he r e ?
How l ong had you r ecei ved t he word t o go forward when you
hear d t he expl osi on?
A. Oh, about 10 mi nut es maybe, maybe not t h a t l ong.
Q . How l ong d i d it t ake you t o ge t t he r e ?
A. Qui t e a whi l e. W e r ecei ved f i r e goi ng acr os s t he
br i dge. Thi s af t er - - you s e e , when I approached t h e br i dge- -
Q- ( I nt er pos i ng) He s t epped on i t ?
A. He had done s t epped on it. I went ahead and was
goi ng acr os s t h e br i dge , and I r ecei ved s ni pe r f i r e goi ng
across t he br i dge.
Q * You di d? Was anybody wi t h you?
(GUTHRIE) 24
APP T-298
. .
A. Yes, si r , I t hi nk t he r e was two men w i t h me--cros-
sed wi t h me.
Q. Where were t hey from'?
A. They were from t he same company, B Company.
Q- I mean were they from your pl at oon o r 1st Pl at oon
o r what?
A. They was from t he 3d Pl at oon.
Q- Had t h i s been t he f i r s t s ni per f i r e t h a t they re-
cei ved o r what?
A. Thi s morning, t h i s was t he f i r s t s ni per f i r e we
recei ved. I don' t know about t he 1st Pl at oon.
Q How di d you ge t acr oss t he br i dge under f i r e ?
A. Ran.
Q. Did your people r e t ur n f i r e o r was f i r e r et ur ned
from t he ot he r s i d e of t he br i dge?
A. I bel i eve t he two boys behind me s t a r t e d f i r i n g
as we was going acr os s , and t he 1st Pl at oon r et ur ned f i r e ,
too.
>
Q. Which was on t he ot her s i de .
A. Yes.
Q - What about t he 3d Pl at oon? Was it i n any pos i t i on
o r was it s t i l l back on t he road?
A. I bel i eve t hey was i n pos i t i on t o f i r e . I don' t
know whether t hey f i r e d o r not .
Q You s a i d it took you a whi l e t o ge t up , t her e. I f
t he pl at oon w a s up t he r e i n a pos i t i on t o f i r e , they must have
been f a i r l y cl os e t o t he br i dge.
A. This was bef or e we went acr oss t he br i dge. We s e t
up bef or e we went acr oss t he br i dge.
( GUTHRI E ) 25
APP T- 298
FOR OFFI CI AL. USE ONLY
1
Q You got t o t he br i dge and wai t ed?
A. Waited u n t i l t hey got i n t o position. There was
s ur e no cover goi ng acr os s t h a t br i dge.
Q Y e s , b u t I was under t he i mpr essi on t h a t you moved
forward from t he pl at oon and s t a r t e d acr os s t he br i dge when
you got s ni pe r f i r e .
A. No. Now I was up t o t he br i dge, appr oachi ng t h e
br i dge, when I be l i e ve TAYLOR s t epped on t he mine. I moved
a c i os s t he br i dge a f t e r w e had some men s e t up acr os s t he r i v e r
bank.
9 Did t he f i r i n g s t a r t a f t e r he st epped on t he mine
o r when you s t a r t e d acr os s t he br i dge?
A. When he st epped on t he mine, I t hi nk, j u s t a l i t t l e
a f t e r he st epped on t h e mine.
Q.
1
So t he f i r i n g s t a r t e d as a r e s u l t of t h a t mine
goi ng o f f ?
A. I t must have been. I be l i e ve t h a t must have been
what t hey w a s wai t i ng f o r . They had a few o t h e r t i m e s when
somebody s t epped on a mine and we r ecei ved s n i p e r f i r e a t t he
same t i m e .
LTC NOLL: The enemy f i r e had s t a r t e d a t t he same t i me he
st epped on t h e mine?
A. I t hi nk it was j u s t a l i t t l e a f t e r . I t s t a r t e d
j u s t t h e i n s t a n t t h a t he d i d s t e p on t he mine.
Q. W a s t h e r e any r esponse as f a r as the 1st Pl at oon
f i r i n g be f or e t he s ni pe r f i r e s t a r t e d , o r d i d t hey wai t u n t i l
t he r e w a s s ni pe r f i r e be f or e t hey s t a r t e d f i r i n g ?
A. I be l i e ve t hey wai t ed, and I d o n ' t be l i e ve t hey
j u s t f i r e d because t h e mine went o f f . The r eason, I t hi nk,
it had t o w a i t a whi l e was because t h e r e was no s ni pe r f i r e
a t a l l u n t i l I got up on t he br i a ge .
Q -
What was t h e or de r of march approachi ng t h e br i dge?
What pl at oon was i n t h e l e a d?
A. I be l i e ve B Company was i n t h e l e a d goi ng t o t h e
br i dge.
Q. I t would be B Company. What pl at oon w a s i n f r ont ?
You had one pl at oon acr os s t he r i v e r , you' ve got two pl at oons
approachi ng. Was t h e 2d Pl at oon behi nd t h e 3d Pl at oon?
A. They must have been because I be l i e ve we w a s t he
f i r s t ones t h e r e , si r.
COL WILSON: Well t h i s woul dn' t make s ens e. I f there w e r e 10
men t r a i n e d i n EOD, woul dn' t t h e 1st Pl at oon have had an EOD
man over t he r e ?
A. W e l l , a c t ua l l y t he r e was onl y one i n t h e company,
and t h a t was me.
Q ( ~ n t e r p o s i n g ) You were t he onl y man i n t h e company
EOD t r a i n e d a t t h i s t i me, r i g h t ?
A. Ri ght , si r. Now 1st Pl at oon d i d do some of t h e i r
own demol i t i ons. I n f a c t , a l l of t he pl at oons di d, b u t I done
most a l l of it t hough. Usual l y t he c a pt a i n would c a l l me up
t o blow up t he s e mines o r t hes e boi ~bs . I f he found them, he
would cal l me i ns t e a d of havi ng somebody else do it.
LTC NOLL: L e t me ask you now what was t he t i me i n t e r v a l
between t h e t i m e TAYLOR was wounded u n t i l t he s ni pe r f i r e
s t a r t e d ?
A. A few mi nut es I be l i e ve .
Q - Did t h e s ni pe r f i r e resume? I ' m assuming t h a t
once you a l l r et ur ned f i r e t h a t t h e s ni pe r f i r e was s i l e nc e d.
Did it resume a second t i m e o r w a s t h a t i t ?
A. W e l l , when we r et ur ned f i r e , t hey was s t i l l f i r i n g ,
si r.
Q. You d i d n ' t f i r e a l l morning and t hen f i n a l l y suc-
ceeded i n s i l e n c i n g t he f i r e . I ' m ki nd of cur i ous- -
A. ( ~ n t e r p o s i n g ) They d i d n ' t f i r e a l l morning. As
we were f i r i n g , t hey were f i r i n g t oo I guess.
APP T-298
Q How l ong di d t h i s exchange of f i r e l a s t ?
A. About 5 o r 10 mi nut es a t t he most. I t d i d n ' t l ast
l ong.
Q Were t h e r e gunshi ps on s t a t i o n a t t h i s t i m e o r di d
t hey come i n l a t e r ?
A. There w a s a gunshi p t he r e . I don' t know i f he
come i n as we was f i r i n g o r a f t e r we q u i t f i r i n g . One w a s
t h e r e because he was f i r i n g , t oo. '
Q- Had t he medevac s h i p come i n t o t a ke out TAYLOR?
A. Y e s , si r , he was f l y i n g i n .
COL WILSON: When you got t h e r e , he was f l y i n g i n ?
A. Y e s , I be l i e ve he was. I was n' t payi ng t oo much
a t t e n t i o n t o it. I know t h e r e was one t he r e t hough.
LTC NOLL: We've got t he b i g event s f i xe d, b u t I don' t say
we have a r e a l pr e c i s e p i c t u r e of what happened t h e r e . I
t hi nk you a r e one of t he few peopl e we have had t h a t was
r e a l l y r i g h t t h e r e on t he s pot a f t e r TAYLOR s t epped on t h i s
mine t h a t would be a bl e t o t a ke us t hrough t h i s s t e p by s t e p.
Now, would you t r y t o do t h a t pl e a s e and I I . 1 1 t r y not t o i n-
t e r r u p t you?
A. Now, t h i s w a s approachi ng t he br i dge?
Q L e t ' s t ake it from t he t i me TAYLOR s t epped on t h e
mine. What your pl at oon l oc a t i on was, and what you remember.
A. I remember t he 1st Pl at oon c a l l e d Li eut enant LEWIS
and r eques t ed him f o r me t o come over and blow t he mine. H e
s e n t word back t o me t o come forward which I di d. H e t o l d me
t h a t t hey had mines over by t he 1st Pl at oon acr os s t h e br i dge.
A s we approached t h e br i dge , I ' m s ur e I asked t he l i e ut e na nt
t o set up some men al ong t he bank j u s t i n case we di d r ecei ve
s ni pe r f i r e goi ng acr os s t h e br i dge , and he di d. Af t e r he had
them set up, I was goi ng acr os s t he br i dge. The mine went of f
bef or e I s t a r t e d on t h e br i dge t hough. The mine went of f as
(GUTHRIE) 28
APP T-298
I s t a r t e d acr os s t he br i dge , got about hal fway, I be l i e ve , a
l i t t l e over o r a l i t t l e l e s s t han t h a t . We r ecei ved s ni pe r f i r e
and t he two men behi nd me jumpea off r i g h t al ongs i de t he wat er .
I went on over i n where TAYLOR was a t , and t he 1st Pl at oon
w a s r e t ur ni ng f i r e . The 3d Pl at oon was t oo, I be l i e ve . The
men behi nd me was r e t ur ni ng f i r e as t hey was coming acr os s t h e
br i dge. Now, where TAYLOR was a t t hey must have dr ug him
back of f by t h e l i e u t e n a n t , because he wa s n' t t h e r e when I
jumped i n t he r e .
Q I would guess t h a t t h e medevac chopper w a s not
t h e r e a t t h i s t i me frame.
A. I ' m s ur e he would have had t o come i n a f t e r t h e
f i r e .
Q. Did you des t r oy any mines a t t h i s t i me? Did it
t ake some t i me t o s ear ch t he br i dge out f o r mines as you moved
t o mark i t ?
A. The onl y t hi ng, we come acr os s w a s some mines on
t h e ot he r s i d e a f t e r we come acr os s . A t t h i s t i m e we had a
few o t h e r EOD' s . Now, where t hes e come from I don' t know. I
d i d n ' t even know t hey was i n t he company, and t hey s e t some
char ges on t he ot he r s i de . They must have been c a l l e d i n by
b a t t a l i o n o r somebody.
Q W a s t h a t be f or e t he company cr os s ed or a f t e r t h e
company cr os s ed?
A. I be l i e ve it was t h e r e a t t he t i me t hey was set-
t i n g t he char ges.
Q. What can you t e l l us about t he gunshi ps?
A. W e l l , t he onl y t hi ng I can t e l l you about t h a t
is t h a t he w a s f i r i n g over our heads. H e w a s on the side,
nor t h s i d e I be l i e ve , f i r i n g s out h. He made a coupl e of
passes .
Q One or two pas s es ?
A. I be l i e ve it was one. I t coul d have been two. They
us ual l y run around two, b u t I d o n ' t r e c a l l a second one.
Q = You d i d n ' t a s s l s t i n l oa di ng TAYLOR on the chopper?
A. No, s i r , I d i d n ' t .
COL WILSON: What about t h e s e e x t r a EOD per s onnel ? Where d i d
t hey come from?
A. I have no i d e a , si r .
Q. How d i d t hey g e t i n t h e r e ?
A. I d o n ' t know t h a t e i t h e r , si r. They must have
been i n wi t h somebody else because I d i d n ' t n o t i c e them u n t i l
t hey w a s coming back.
Q I d o n ' t know how t hey would have g o t t e n i n t h e r e .
A. I ' m s u r e t h e r e was two EOD' s . I ' m s u r e t hey s et
t hos e char ges o f f ove r t h e r e .
Q. Where w e r e t hey from?
A. I d o n ' t know, si r . I know t hey wa s n' t from B Com-
pany. I n f a c t , I know t he y wa s n' t . They must have been c a l l e d
i n from somewhere else. I ' m s u r e t hey set t h e char ges o f f be-
cause t he y w a s us i ng C4. I us ua l l y d i d n ' t have t h a t because
i t ' s p r e t t y ha r d t o g e t a hol d o f .
Q- You mean t hey expl oded t h e o t h e r mines, i n t h e
a r e a ?
A. On t h e o t h e r s i d e .
Q. On t h e o t h e r s i d e where TAYLOR was?
A. No, si r , t h i s i s on t h e s i d e I come a c r os s from.
Q - Ther e w e r e mines on t h e w e s t s i d e a l s o ?
A. I b e l i e v e s o , si r . They had char ges s et over
t he r e . Now, i f t h e r e was mi nes under t h e r e when t,hey set
t hos e o f f , i t ' s p r e t t y ha r d t o t e l l . I t coul d have been j u s t
s mal l mi nes.
(GUTHRIE) APP T-298
FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY q
Q They j u s t had char ges s e t , t o expl ode t he mines?
A. I don' t be l l e ve s o. They had them--they wa s n' t
j u s t i n , an a r e a . I t was al ong t h e t r a i l . Al ongsi de of t h e
t r a i l . hey was spaced- - t her e was a p r e t t y good di s t a nc e i n
be tween.
Q. The char ges?
A. Yes, s i r , and t hey had some up by t h e br i dge which
t hey coul d have been j u s t demol i shi ng t he ground checki ng f o r
it. They w e r e s e t t i n g char ges acr os s t he r e .
Q Oh, you mean t hey coul d have been j u s t pl a c i ng
these char ges out f o r det onat i on of mines and booby t r a p s i n
t he ar ea.
Tha t ' s r i g h t , si r.
Q. Was t h a t normal l y done?
A. I d o n ' t know, s i r . I never done it. Thi s i s t he
f i r s t t i m e I ever seen it done.
Q But t he s e were on t he west s i d e of t h e br i dge. On
the o t h e r s i d e of t h e br i dge , who got r i d of t hos e e x t r a mines
over t he r e ? Who demol i shed t hos e?
A. As f a r as I know, t h e r e were no more over t he r e . I
d i d n ' t see any char ges over t h e r e t h a t I know of .
Q . We've had peopl e say t h a t t he r e were ot he r mines
wi t hi n t he same a r e a where TAYLOR was wounded t h a t were marked
wi t h t ape.
A. Tha t ' s pos s i bl e . Li ke I s ay, I d i d n ' t s e e them
o r I d i d n ' t he a r any expl os i ons over t he r e .
Q . Why would t hey have done t h a t ? Why would t hey
have marked t he s e mines?
A. I t ' s pos s i bl e t h a t t h e 1st Pl at oon di d.
9- A l l r i g h t . When you g o t over t h e r e , what d i d you
do? The mine had al r eady been det onat ed.
' FOR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
A. The onl y i de a when we got over t h e r e was t o r e t ur n
f i r e f o r a whi l e , and a f t e r t h a t t h e r e was n' t not hi ng l e f t . I
went back acr os s t h e br i dge.
Q- - You d i d go back t o your pl at oon t hen?
A. I went back acr os s t he br i dge.
Q. So you d i d n ' t go over t h e r e t o l ook and s ee i f
t he r e w e r e any more mines?
A. No, si r .
Q Now where d i d t he s e EOD personnel --were t hey
engi neer crews ?
A. They must have been.
Q. You d o n ' t g e t composi t i on C a s a r u l e ?
A. No, si r .
Q- Did you s e e them det onat e t he s e char ges t h a t t hey
pl aced al ong t he t r a i l on t he west s i d e of t h e br i dge?
A. I d o n ' t be l i e ve I di d. I saw some char ges. I
don' t r e c a l l them det onat i ng them of f when I was around any-
way.
Q Were t he s e char ges l i nked t oge t he r wi t h f i r i n g
cor d o r det onat i ng cor d o r what ?
A. No, s i r , t hey had t i me f us es .
Q- On each char ge?
(The wi t nes s nodded i n t he a f f i r ma t i ve . )
And you went back t o t he pl at oon and you cr os s ed
over when your pl at oon crossed?
A. Yes, si r. We were s e n t back acr os s t he br i dge
a f t e r t h e pl at oon went over t o s e t up a per i met er on t h a t
s i d e of t he br i dge.
( GUTHRI E) 32 APP T- 298
Q
You' re t a l ki ng about t he e a s t s i d e ' towards t he
ocean.
A. No, t h i s i s a f t e r we went across t he br i dge, sir.
The whole platoon--a few men, I guess a squad, went back acr oss
t o t he west s i d e and set up a peri met er over t her e.
Q- For how long?
A. A couple of hours. W e was t he r e f o r a whi l e.
Q. Did you go back wi t h them? Were you on t h e w e s t
s i d e of the br i dge t o s e t up t he peri met er?
* (The wi t ness nodded i n t he af f i r mat i ve. )
LTC NOLL: I n how long di d a l l t h i s t ake pl ace?
A.
You mean s e t t i n g up t he peri met er and going
acr oss t he br i dge?
( Mr . WALSH ent er ed t he hear i ng. )
Q. Yes. Le t ' s t ake how much time el apsed from the
t i m e TAYLOR was h u r t u n t i l t he time you went back t o s e t up
a peri met er on t he west s i de of t he br i dge?
A. W e l l , I ' m pr e t t y s ur e t h e s ni per s were gone. W e
went back acr oss t he br i dge. When I w a s back acr oss t he r e
t hey had t hese--I bel i eve t hey had t hes e charges on t he ground
and t hen t he 3d Pl at oon went on acr oss. Now, coming back I
don' t know if t hose charges were al ready blown o r not . I ' m
s ur e they must have been, si r. I don' t r e c a l l s eei ng them
coming back acr oss. And we, the squad, s e t up a peri met er
r i g h t t he r e al ong t he r i v e r bed. I ' d es t i mat e 1 hour and
45, I guess, something l i k e t h a t .
Q You s t ayed t he r e 2 hours?
A. Approximately 2 hours.
Q- That would have made it about 10 o' cl ock i n t he
morning.
( GUTHRI E) 3 3
1
APP T-298
A. Somewhere around t h e r e . I know we moved o u t t h e
f i r s t t h i n g t h a t morning t oward t h e 1st Pl at oon.
Q- Where was t h e 81 m i l l i m e t e r mor t ar s et up?
A. I d o n ' t know, si r .
Q.
What d i d you do when you moved o u t t o w e s t of t h e
br i dge ?
A. Moving o u t , s i r ?
Q Y e s , you s a i d you d i d n ' t s t a y t h e r e .
A. I b e l i e v e we went back a c r os s and s et up a pe r i -
meter, o r moved down and s et up a pe r i me t e r . I know we s t a ye d
over t h e r e I ' m s u r e t h a t ni ght .
Q. What d i d t h e r est of t he pl a t oon do whi l e your
squad was on t h e w e s t s i d e of t h e br i dge , do you know?
A. No, si r , I s u r e d o n ' t unl e s s t he y was s e t t i n g up
a per i met er . I b e l i e v e we set t h e pe r i me t e r r i g h t t h e r e .
I ' m n o t p o s i t i v e .
COL WILSON: The l o g shows a t 0810 t h a t TAYLOR was wounded
and a t 0845 you r e c e i ve d s n i p e r f i r e . Th a t ' s n o t n e c e s s a r i l y
a l l t h e f a c t s b u t t h a t ' s t h e way it was r ecor ded, which p u t s
t h e s n i p e r f i r e r e c e i ve d a f t e r TAYLOR was wounded. I t coul d
have been a phase of t h e e a r l i e r s n i p e r f i r e . Ther e was a
r eas onabl e concl us i on drawn t h a t t h e r e w e r e f o u r o r f i v e mor-
t a r rounds f i r e d t h e f i r s t day on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h a t
br i dge . About t h r e e o r f our of t he s e w e r e duds. I wonder i f
it i s p o s s i b l e t h a t any of t h e s e s o- c a l l e d booby t r a p s and
mines coul d have been one of t hos e mor t ar duds somebody was
f o o l i n g wi t h?
A. I t coul d have been. I d o n ' t b e l i e v e it was. Of
cour s e, I d o n ' t know. I wa s n' t t h e r e .
Q- From an EOD s t a n d p o i n t , a mor t ar round dud, how
easy is it t o de t ona t e ?
A. I d o n ' t know. I never messed wi t h t h e s t u f f . I
d o n ' t r e c a l l e v e r be i ng t o l d about it. I ' m s u r e w e di d. I
(GUTHRIE) 34
APP T-298
be l i e ve t hey are not t oo dangerous. They a r e danger ous, but
t hey .are not r e a l s e n s i t i v e .
Q The company minus moved sout h t h a t day, went a l l
t he way down t o t he T r a Khuc Ri ver down on t h e sout h. Did you
s t a y wi t h t he pl at oon o r di d you go down wi t h t he company?
A. I s t ayed wi t h t he pl at oon. I always s t ayed wi t h
t he 3d Pl at oon.
Q- W e l l , do you remember what you di d t h a t day a f t e r
t h e a c t i on t h a t morning?
A. S e t up a per i met er , I be l i e ve , si r.
Q- St ayed r i g h t t he r e ?
A. I be l i e ve we di d. I know we d i d move up nor t h
on t he same day or t h e f ol l owi ng day.
Q- That day, do you r e c a l l B Company moving o f f
s out h, you s t a yi ng t h e r e , o r what ?
A. W e s t a ye d t he r e . I ' m s u r e w e d i d n ' t move.
Q- Did anyt hi ng happen t h a t day a t a l l t h a t you can
recall?
A. No, si r, not t h a t I can r e c a l l . Are you r e f e r r i n g
t o t h a t side of t he br i dge?
Q - Y e s .
-
A. No , si r . I know w e d i d booby t r a p the ar ea.
Q. You booby t r apped i t ?
A. W e l l , set up f l a r e s and t hi ngs l i k e t h i s .
Q. Tha t ' s f o r t h e ni ght l aager ?
A. Y e s .
Q. Now, what about t h a t ni ght . Did anyt hi ng occur
t h a t night?
A. No, si r , n o t t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q. Did you have any de t a i ne e s i n t h a t a r e a t h a t ni ght ?
A. Not t h a t I r e c a l l , si r .
b
Q Do you remember a h e l i c o p t e r coming i n l a t e t h a t
day br i ngi ng i n--
A. . ( I nt e r pos i ng) I b e l i e v e t h e r e was a chopper coming
i n wi t h s u p p l i e s on it.
Q What ki nd of s u p p l i e s ?
A. Rat i ons.
Q. Did you need any more e xpl os i ve s by t h a t t i me?
A. I d o n ' t b e l i e v e I d i d , s i r , because I d o n ' t r e c a l l
e ve r as ki ng f o r any more. I us ua l l y d o n ' t g e t e xpl os i ve s o f f
t he chopper anyway. I us ua l l y wa i t u n t i l we g e t back i n unl e s s
I j u s t have t o have some.
Q. Did anybody el se i n t h e company c a r r y e xpl os i ve s
be s i de s y o u r s e l f ?
A. N o one c a r r i e d them i n t h e company.
Q. You nor mal l y woul dn' t c a r r y enough i f you had t o
blow more t ha n one bunker .
A. I used t o c a r r y enough--I c a r r i e d q u i t e a b i t about
10 o r 15 pounds. It goes q u i t e a ways. Li ke I onl y blowed one
bunker and us ua l l y what I d i d blow was mines and bombs. I t
don' t t a k e much.
Q Coul dn' t you al most do t h a t wi t h a de t ona t i ng
cap?
A. Not a bomb.
Q. How about a mine?
A. You can wi t h a mine. I t d o n ' t t a ke much t o set
o f f a mine.
(GUTHRIE) 36
APP T-298
Q. Ac t ua l l y you coul d f i r e on it.
A. I b e l i e v e you coul d.
Q. You d o n ' t r e c a l l anyt hi ng about t h a t day a f t e r
t h a t morning.
(The wi t ne s s shakes head i n t h e ne ga t i ve . )
LTC NOLL: While you w e r e i n t h a t p o s i t i o n d i d you go t o t he
v i l l a g e , itwould be r i g h t t o t h e e a s t where t h e 3d Pl at oon
was t h e n i g h t be f or e , t o l ook around?
A. Thi s was a c r os s t h e br i dge where we set up a
pe r i me t e r , s i r ?
Q. Y e s .
A. I d o n ' t r e c a l l s e e i ng a v i l l a g e around t h e r e .
There was one w e passed t hr ough on t h e w e s t s i d e , I guess
maybe 200 meters o f f away from t h e br i dge . Ther e wa s a
coupl e of hoot ches t h e r e .
Q - Thi s a c t i o n i n t h e morning w i t h s n i p e r s , d i d t h e
company sweep t h a t a r e a and t u r n up any bodi e s ?
A. Not t h a t morning. I b e l i e v e w e found a woman t h e
next morning. I t l ooked l i k e s he had been o u t t h e r e q u i t e a
whi l e.
Q = Did you bur y h e r ?
A. Y e s , we di d.
Q. Did s he have a neck wound?
A. I d o n ' t recal l , s i r . She d i d n ' t s m e l l t o o good.
I d i d n ' t g e t ' t o o c l o s e t o h e r . She was s t i l l i n a hammock o r
somet hi ng t he y c a r r i e d h e r i n . Whoever c a r r i e d h e r , I guess
a f t e r s he d i e d o r t he y g o t i n a hur r y o r somet hi ng t hey must
have j u s t l e f t h e r t h e r e . Thi s must have been when t h e 1st
Pl at oon came over t h e r e I guess. But s he had been l a yi ng t h e r e
f o r a l ong t i m e .
COL WILSON: Who b u r i e d h e r ?
A. A few men i n t h e pl a t oon, si r . I d o n ' t know
e xa c t l y who t he y we r e .
Q Did you see h e r ?
A. Y e s , s i r , I d i d see h e r .
Q Do you remember t h e t ype wound s he had?
A. No, s i r , I d i d n ' t even n o t i c e t h e wound a t a l l .
Q. Do you reme@er t h e next morning anybody f i n d i n g
a cache of ri ce, about 3, 000 pounds?
A. No, si r , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e w e d i d . Oh, y e s , si r , I
do. I s u r e do. I b e l i e v e t hey found some ri ce bur i e d. I t
wa s bur i e d. Somewhere t hey found some ri ce. I b e l i e v e it was
bur i e d. I b e l i e v e it was r i ce, and I t hi nk w e bagged it up
and shi pped it out .
Q What ki nd of bags d i d you put i n i t ?
A. Sandbags, I b e l i e v e , t h a t ' s what we used. .\4
\1
\II
Q. Was t h i s ri ce underground somewhere or , was it i n \
a bunker or what ? $3
A. W e l l , it w a s j u s t b u r i e d i n t h e s and wi t h p l a s t i c
a l l ar ound, what w e found.
Q That was r e por t e d a t 0755, p r e t t y e a r l y i n t h e
morning, when it was found. I guess i t was be f or e t h a t t i m e
t h a t B Company c a me on back from t h e s out h. They l a a ge r e d
down t h e r e t h a t n i g h t . They came on back from t h e s out h, and
you j oi ned them moving nor t h. Do you r e c a l l t h i s ?
A. B Company coming from t h e s out h?
Q Y e s .
A. No, si r , because B Company was t h e r e where t hey
found t h e rice.
Q W e l l , t hey would have j oi ned you by t h a t dime.
I ' m not--
(GUTHRIE)
38
APP T-298
A. ( I nt er pos i ng) You've got me l o s t now because
I ' m wi t h B Company.
/
Q- Yes, I know. You remember t h a t you s t ayed up t h e r e
by your s el f t h a t ni ght , t h e pl at oon, whi l e B Company was i n t he
sout h. B Company came back and s t a r t e d moving nor t h.
A. I don' t r e c a l l them hi t c hi ng up wi t h us.
Q You d o n ' t remember goi ng up t oward t he b i g v i l l a g e
t h a t day?
A. No, si r . The next morning, I'm s ur e we moved out
t owards t he nor t h on t he e a s t s i d e of t h e r i v e r t he r e . I
don' t r e c a l l hi t c hi ng up w i t h t h e r e s t of t he company.
Q Did you s e e any ARVN o r Vietnamese mi l i t a r y t h a t
' day?
A. No, s i r , I d i d n ' t , not t h a t I know o f .
Q - Did you see any Navy s hi ps out t he r e t h a t day?
A. I ' d seen some, but I don' t r e c a l l i f it was t h a t
day o r not .
Q. How about t he day bef or e?
A. No, si r, I know I d i d n ' t s e e any t hen.
Q What happened a f t e r you moved up t h e r e and s t a r t e d
moving i n t o t he s e v i l l a g e s up i n t h e nor t her n p a r t ?
A. W e never di d run acr os s any vi l l a ge s .
Q. You d i d n ' t ?
A. N o t t h a t I r e c a l l . - I t ' s j u s t a sandbar a l l t he
way down t he r e . There were some v i l l a g e s on t h e w e s t s i d e
over t he r e , b u t we never di d cr os s t o them. There was a
v i l l a g e , I be l i e ve , al most a l l t he way t o t he t op up t he r e .
I don' t know if it w a s on our s i d e o r on t he o t h e r s i de . I
t hi nk t h e r e wa s a br eaki ng poi nt i n t h e r e somewhere and t he
ocean come up. W e never d i d go up q u i t e t h a t f a r , I be l i e ve .
Q Where wa s MI LUS , k i l l e d ?
APP T-298
FOR OFFICIAL lfSE ONLY'
A. H e w a s k i l l e d when we set up t h a t pe r i me t e r t h a t
ni ght . Tha t ' s when t h e whole company was t h e r e , b u t I ' m s u r e
t hey di dn ' t m e e t up wi t h us , t h e 3d Pl at oon. I t hi nk t hey
m e t somewhere al ong t h e way up t h e r e on t h e o t h e r s i d e of t h e
r i v e r . I d o n ' t r e c a l l them moving up wi t h us t h a t n i g h t . H e
w a s k i l l e d on t h a t sandbar t h e n i g h t we s e t up t h e per i met er .
Q. Do you r e c a l l r oundi ng up a whole bunch of c i v i l i a n s
t h a t day o u t of t h e v i l l a g e s ?
A. Y e s , s i r , I do.
Q. Do you r e c a l l a MEDCAP, a medi cal t e a m coming i n
t h e r e ?
A. No, s i r , I s u r e d o n ' t .
Q. You d o n ' t r e c a l l t h a t . Do you r e c a l l any i nt e r p-
reters o r any M I per s onnel coming i n t h e r e ?
A. No, s i r , t hos e E OD' s w e r e t h e r e . Tn a t ' s t h e onl y
t h i n g t h a t I can r e c a l l .
Q= The E OD' s w e r e wi t h them agai n?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q What d i d t hey do, d i d t hey s t a y wi t h them.
A. They was t h e r e t h e ne xt morni ng, because t hey went
o u t t h e r e and blowed some rounds t h a t was f i r e d i n .
Q Fi r e d i n where?
A. W e r e c e i ve d some mor t ar s t h a t n i g h t and t he ne xt
morning.
Q. Th a t ' s t h e ne xt day t hen?'
A. Y e s , si r. They went out band blowed some 1 0 5 r ounds,
duds. I t hi nk t he y blowed one o r two of them.
Q Now, l e t I s go back he r e t o t h e day you moved up
t h e r e , t h e day you moved up t h a t sandbar . Do you remember
mor t ar f i r e or any a r t i l l e r y rounds be i ng f i r e d i n t o t h a t
v i l l a g e , i n t o . t h a t a r e a ?
( GUTHRI E) 40
APP T-298
A. NO, si r , I don' t .
Q You don' t . Did you g e t any ordnance di s pos al t h a t
day a t a l l ?
A. , NO, si r.
Q.
what di d you do t h a t day, d i d you s t a y wi t h t he
pl at oon CP o r what ?
A. I s t ayed wi t h t h e pl at oon, b u t I went out w i t h
them t o ga t he r up peopl e.
Q Did you go t hr ough v i l l a g e s o r d i d you s t a y down
on t h e beach?
A. I went t hrough v i l l a g e s .
Q D i d anyt hi ng unusual occur ?
A. No , sir, not a t t h a t t i m e . I don' t remember
r e c e i vi ng f i r e o r anyt hi ng t h a t day.
Q You s pe nt most of t h e day roundi ng up peopl e and
sendi ng them back t o t h e company?
A. Y e s , sir.
Q And what happened--what t i m e di d you go back t o
j oi n t he company agai n, back a t what w a s t o be t he ni ght
def ens i ve pos i t i on?
A. Af t er we got t hrough roundi ng up a l l t he peopl e
t h a t wa s i n t he v i l l a g e , it must have been i n t h e af t er noon,
I guess.
Q And you moved i n and s e t a ni ght def ens i ve pos i t i on.
A. Y e s , si r.
9 A t t h a t t i m e w e r e t hes e EOD peopl e wi t h B Company?
A. Y e s , si r, I be l i e ve t hey were.
Q- Did you t a l k t o any of them?
(GUTHRIE) 4 1
APP T-298
A. No, si r , I never d i d t a l k t o them.
Q Were t hey t h e same ones t h a t w e r e wi t h them t h e
f i r s t day?
A. They must have been because I don ' t r e c a l l any
choppers coming i n wi t h them.
Q A l l r i g h t , now, I want t o f i n d o u t what I can
about t h i s de t ona t i on of 105 r ounds. Where w e r e t h e s e r ounds?
A. W e l l , t hey were bet ween us and t h e v i l l a g e .
Q. Who knew where t he y were?
A. The s e a r c h p a r t y t h a t went out .
Q g They s p o t t e d them?
A. Y e s , si r , I b e l i e v e t hey must have s p o t t e d them.
Q Thi s EOD team went o u t t h e r e ?
A. Y e s , s i r , t h e r e was two of them and mysel f went
out . I t h i n k we had a coupl e of men wi t h us .
Q. You went out ?
A. Y e s , si r .
Q W e l l , how many rounds d i d you de t ona t e ?
A. None, si r.
Q Did you f i n e any?
A. Y e s , si r , I t hi nk we found an 8 1 round.
Q m Whose was i t ?
A. I t was our s .
' Q. From t h e n i g h t be f or e ?
A. From t h e n i g h t t h a t w e r e c e l ve d t h e mor t a r s .
(GUTHRIE) 4 2
APP T-29 8
1
Af t e r you g o t t h e a t t a c k .
A, Y e s .
Q And what d i d you do wi t h t h a t ?
A. The EOD' s t h a t was wi t h us blew it, si r.
Q So you a l l went o u t a s one team?
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Then what else d i d you f i nd?
A. W e found--I b e l i e v e it was one o r two 105 rounds
which somebody else had l oc a t e d. W e d i d f i n d an 81 round.
Q. And what about t h e 1 0 5 ' s , d i d you blow t hos e.
A. Y e s , si r.
Q. Now, t h e r e was a t o t a l of t h r e e peopl e i n t h i s
group, you and t h e o t h e r two EOD per s onnel .
A. Y e s , s i r , pl us t h e men we t ook o u t wi t h us.
Q How many w a s t h a t ?
A. I t h i n k it was t h r e e o r f o u r of them went o u t
wi t h us.
Q. A l l r i g h t . The n i g h t t h a t you r e c e i ve d t h a t mor t ar
a t t a c k , w a s t h e r e anyt hi ng unusual about t h a t a t t a c k t h a t you
can r e c a l l ? W e know t hey got bet ween f i v e and s i x rounds and
MILUS w a s k i l l e d and s o f o r t h .
A. The onl y t h i n g I r e c a l l unusual i s the c a pt a i n
asked us t o f i r e an M-79 round ever y 30 mi nut es.
Q I n what d i r e c t i o n ?
A. I n t h e d i r e c t i o n s from which t h e pe r i me t e r wa s set
up, w e s t , s out h and nor t h.
Q- Out s i de t h e pe r i me t e r a r e a ?
(GUTHRIE) 4 3
APP T-298
A. Y e s .
Q And how o f t e n w e r e t h e s e 79' s supposed t o be f i r e d ?
A. Every 30 mi nut es , si'r.
Q One from each pl a t oon o r j ust - -
A. ( I n t e r p o s i n g ) One from each p o s i t i o n t h a t had an
M-79 .
Q- Were t h e r e any f l a r e s t h a t n i g h t ?
A. N o t dur i ng t h e f i r i n g we was doi ng, n o t b e f o r e t h e
a t t a c k . The onl y f l a r e s I r e c a l l was a f t e r t h e a t t a c k , and
t he y had a "Puff t h e Magic Dragon" f l y i n g ar ound. H e was ,
dr oppi ng f l a r e s .
/
Q- Why do you t h i n k it was unusual t o f i r e t h a t M-79
a f t e r you r e c e i ve d an a t t a c k l i k e t h i s ?
A. . Thi s was b e f o r e , si r .
Q -
Thi s was b e f o r e you g o t t h a t a t t a c k t h a t he s a i d
t o f i r e t h e M-79's ever y 30 mi nut es?
A. Y e s .
Q. What t i m e d i d you s t a r t t h i s f i r e ?
A. I ' m s u r e it must have been a f t e r da r k, sundown.
Q- And you d o n ' t r e c a l l whet her t h e r e was any a r t i l l e r y
f i r e pi a c e d i n t h e r e b e f o r e t h a t a t t a c k , s i n g l e r ounds?
A. W e l l , i f t h e r e would have been a nyt hi ng, it would
.
have j u s t been a b e a r i n g on s e t t i n g up t h e pe r i me t e r a t n i g h t .
I f t he y f i r e d some a r t i l l e r y o u t t h e r e , it mi ght be marki ng
r ounds. They woul d have been t h e onl y t h i n g f i r e d .
Q
Do you remember a woman be i ng br ought i n t h a t had
a ver y ba dl y wounded l e g and was evacuat ed?
A. N o , si r , I s u r e d o n ' t .
( GUTHRI E) 4 4
APP T-298
F,OR OFFICIAL USE ONLY
Q. Thi s i s P-214. Does t h a t phot o l ook f a mi l i a r t o
you i n any way?
A. No, si r , i t s u r e doe s n' t .
Q Begi nni ng wi t h t h e 16t h of March t hr ough t h e 18t h,
19t h of March, d i d you see any bodi es e xc e pt t h e woman t h a t
you found up t h e r e on t h e h i l l ?
A. No, si r , n o t t h a t I r e c a l l . I ha ve n' t s een any
bodi es a t a l l .
Q- Did you see any new gr aves t h e 17t h o r t h e 18t h?
A. No, si r .
Q. Do you have any knowledge of an i n v e s t i g a t i o n o r
i nqui r y be i ng made on t h e s ope r a t i on whi l e you w e r e i n
Vietnam?
A. No, si r , I d i d n ' t know t h i s i n c i d e n t happened
u n t i l I g o t a t el egr am t h e o t h e r day. I t hought t h i s happened,
a f t e r we l e f t .
Q . Was t h e r e anybody i n your u n i t t h a t you know of
t h a t w a s que s t i one d about t h i s t i m e about t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. Not u n t i l I r e c e i ve d t h e t el egr am.
Q I mean i n Vietnam whi l e you were st i l l - -
A. ( I nt e r pos i ng) Oh, no, si r . Not t h a t I r e c a l l .
Q - Did you e ve r h e a r any rumors t h a t c i v i l i a n s had
been k i l l e d unne c e s s a r i l y by B Company o r C Company on t h i s
ope r a t i on?
A. No, si r. ,
Q . id you h e a r anybody t a l k i n g about a l a r g e body
count on t h i s ope r a t i on, a l a r g e number of peopl e be i ng k i l l e a ?
A. No, s i r , I d i d n ' t h e a r anyt hi ng about t h e body
count o r anyt hi ng l i k e t h i s .
Q. Not hi ng about e xc e s s i ve k i l l s ?
A. No, si r.
Q. Were you e v e r t o l d n o t t o d i s c u s s t he ' p o s s i b l e
unnecessar y k i l l i n g of c i v i l i a n s by Task For ce Bar ker ?
A. No, s i r , I d o n ' t b e l i e v e s o.
Q Do y ~ u know o f , o r a t any t i m e on t h i s o p e r a t i o n
d i d you see, Vi et namese b e i n g t o r t u r e d o r mi s t r e a t e d by U. S .
or ARVN mi l i t a r y pe r s onne l ?
A. No, si r . I know t he y had some t h e r e , b u t I d i d n ' t
see them mi s t r e a t i n g them o r anyt hi ng. They w e r e a s ki ng
q u e s t i o n s of them.
0. Who was a s ki ng them q u e s t i o n s ?
A. W e l l , t h e c a p t a i n was t a l k i n g t o one of them o r
t r y i n g t o t a l k t o one of them. Th a t ' s t h e onl y one I s e e n ,
t h a t o l d man t h e r e .
0. And a s I r e c a l l your t es t i mony, you s a i d you
d i d n ' t see any ARVN mi l i t a r y pe r s onne l i n t h e r e .
A .I Th a t ' s r i g h t . I t ' s j u s t what I s a i d , t h e c a p t a i n
was t a l k i n g t o them. W e l l , t he y coul d have been t h e r e , s i r ,
b u t I d i d n ' t n o t i c e them.
Q. Did you h e a r of any mi s t r e a t me nt ?
A. N o , si r.
Q. Do you know i f mar i j uana was a probl em i n B Company?
A. I d o n ' t t h i n k it was a probl em. They p r e t t y we l l
k e p t it under c o n t r o l . I f it did b o t h e r t h e men, t he y l e f t it
al one.
Q. Do you t h i n k mar i j uana was used b e f o r e o p e r a t i o n s ?
A. I don. ' t know, s i r .
Q. Dur i ng o p e r a t i o n s ?
(GUTHRIE) 46
APP T-298
A. I doubt it. I t was pr obabl y used a f t e r we r e t ur ne d
t o t h e f i r e bas e o r somet hi ng. I t hi nk it was used t he n. I
never even s e e n anybody u ~ i n git mysel f . I hear d t h e c a pt a i n
t a l k about it a few t i m e s ,
Q. You di d?
A. Ri ght , si r .
Q. What d i d he s ay?
A. H e j u s t t o l d us about it, what ki nd of damage it
c a n l d o t o you and a f t e r e f f e c t s on it.
Q. M r . GUTHRIE, have you g o t any f u r t h e r t es t i mony,
any f u r t h e r s t a t e me nt s , o r anyt hi ng t h a t mi ght a s s i s t us i n
t h i s i n v e s t i g a t i o n ?
A. No, si r , n o t t h a t I can r e c a l l .
I
MR WALSH: M r . GUTHRIE, on t h e second day a s you moved down
a c r os s t h e br i dge and j oi ned up wi t h t h e 1st Pl at oon, do you
remember havi ng any di s c us s i on wi t h anybody i n t h e 1st Pl at oon
or anybody i n t h e company about how t h e 1st Pl at oon s h o t up
t h e v i l l a g e t h e r e t h e day be f or e ?
A. No, s i r , I d i d n ' t h e a r anyt hi ng about t h a t .
Q You d i d n ' t he a r anyt hi ng about MILUS s e t t i n g up a
machinegun, and s hoot i ng e ve r yt hi ng t h a t moved i n t h e v i l l a g e ?
A. No, si r. The onl y t i m e I s e e n him use t h e machine-
gun i s when we r e c e i ve d t h a t s n i p e r f i r e .
Q You coul d see it. Were you a c r os s t h e br i dge a t
t h a t t i me?
A. Y e s , si r , I was ove r wi t h t h e 1st Pl at oon a t t h i s
t i m e .
/
A. And I suppose you a l r e a dy de s c r i be d f o r Col onel
WILSON and Col onel NOLL what you d i d a t t h a t t i m e . Did you
h e a r anyt hi ng, e i t h e r a t t h e t i m e you j oi ned up wi t h t h e rest
of t h e compavy o r l a t e r , wi t h r e s p e c t t o t h e peopl e i n t h e 1st
Pl at oon maybe bl owi ng bunker s wi t h demol i t i ons o r s hoot i ng i n t o
some hoot ches t h a t mi ght have had some peopl e i n them?
(GUTHRIE) 4 7 APP T-298
A. No , si r , n o t t h a t . I know o f . Th e 1st Pl a t oon
u s u a l l y d o n ' t c a r r y any e xpl os i ve s a t a l l . I f t he y do c a r r y
it, i t ' s ve r y few, j u s t enough t o blow t h e i r own mi nes i f t he y
r un a c r o s s them. That would be about it.
Q. Do you know on occas i on i f t he y ever g o t s p e c i a l
s u p p l i e s , de mol i t i ons , i f t he y r a n i n t o an a r e a wi t h a l o t of
bunker s t o bl ow?
A. No, s i r . I f t he y do, t hey u s u a l l y c ont a c t e d me t o
see i f I had a nyt hi ng i f t he y c a l l e d i n somet hi ng like t h i s .
Q. Was anyone i n t h e f r o n t el ement , t h e 1st Pl a t oon,
p r e t t y good a t de mol i t i ons ?
A. If it would have been anybody, it woul d have been
TAYLOR.
Q How about HOOTON?
A. I ' m n o t s u r e . I know HOOTON messed wi t h it be f or e .
I d o n ' t know i f h e was r e a l good wi t h it.
Q Do you know i f t h e r e was an e x c e p t i o n a l l y l a r g e
amount of de mol i t i ons used i n t h i s o p e r a t i o n ?
A. W e l l , I d i d n ' t us e much. I d o n ' t know i f the 1st
Pl at oon- - I d o n ' t t h i n k t he y had any o r t he y c a l l e d me ove r ,
b u t t h e r e was t w o more EOD men t h a t used them. I d o n ' t know
how much t he y used. I know t h a t t he y w e r e u s i n g C4.
Q- Were t he y from t h e 1st Pl at oon?
A. N o , t he y must have been wi t h t h e CP.
Q. What w e r e t h e i r names?
A. I have no i d e a . I t a l k e d t o them a l i t t l e b i t ,
b u t I s u r e d o n ' t know t h e i r names.
COL WILSON: You can gi ve us no f u r t h e r i nf or ma t i on what soever
on t h e s e EOD pe r s onne l ?
A. NO, s i r , I s u r e c a n ' t .
(GUTHRIE) 4 8
APP T-298
Q. The t ype of pa t c h t hey had on, t h e i r uni f or ms, t he
u n i t t he y were a s s i gne d t o ?
A. I* t hey d i d -come i n , s i r , t he y would come i n o f f
of LZ D o t t i e , i f t he y would have come - i n from anywhere else
be s i de s Upt i ght .
Q Did you e v e r see them back t h e r e a t Dot t i e ?
A. No, si r .
Did you e v e r see t h e e ngi ne e r s a t Dot t i e ?
Not t h a t I r e c a l l .
You have no f u r t h e r t est i mony a t t h i s t i me?
NO, si r , I s u r e d o n ' t .
Q- No f u r t h e r s t a t e me nt s ?
A. No, si r .
Q. Did you have a camera?
A. Y e s , si r.
Did you have it wi t h you t h i s day?
I pr obabl y d i d . I al ways c a r r i e d it wi t h me .
0. Where do you keep your phot ogr aphs?
A. I n a phot ograph book.
Q. When you g e t back, would you l ook t hr ough t h a t book ,
and see i f you can i d e n t i f y any phot ogr aphs t h a t w e r e t a ke n
dur i ng t h i s pe r i od?
A. Y e s , si r , I s u r e w i l l .
Q- And i f you do, would you ma i l them t o us s o t h a t
we can r epr oduce them and send them back t o you. These phot o-
gr aphs h e r e we g o t from CONGLETON. These w e r e s l i d e s , 35
m i l l i m e t e r . W e s u r e would a p p r e c i a t e g e t t i n g copi es of them.
( GUTHRI E) - 49 APP T-298
I f you can m a i l them i n , w e ' l l gi ve you an envel ope b e f o r e you
l e a ve wi t h o u r addr es s on it. A l l you' 11 have t o do i s p u t
them i n t h e r e . Major THOMAS w i l l g e t them back t o you. W e ' re
t r y i n g t o b u i l d up anyt hi ng w e can. Some of t h e s e a r e ver y
h e l p f u l when you t a l k to a wi t ne s s on somet hi ng t h a t happened
2 ye a r s ago, anyt hi ng you can do t o f i x t h i s i n h i s mind is
a g r e a t asset.
A. W e l l , I ' l l l ook t hr ough it and see i f I can. f i n d
anyt hi ng f o r you.
Q I would g r e a t l y a ppr e c i a t e it. D o you know of
anybody else t h a t had a camera on t h i s ope r a t i on?
A. NO, si r, I s u r e d o n ' t . I ' m s u r e t h e r e wa s somebody
else there, b u t I s u r e c a n ' t t e l l you who it was, unl e s s it
would be NAVARRE. H e c a r r i e d one wi t h him.
Q. W e need t hos e phot ographs i f you' ve g o t any; a l s o ,
i n c onj unc t i on with t h a t , any documents t h a t mi ght h e l p f i x
t i m e and pl a c e . Sometimes peopl e keep d i a r i e s , sometimes
l et t er s, t a p e r e c or di ngs , and s t u f f l i k e t h a t , anyt hi ng of
that na t ur e . And i n conj unct i on wi t h t h i s phot ography, i f you
do have phot ogr aphs, when you go t o mai l them i n as soon as
you f i n d o u t t h a t you have t h e s e phot ogr aphs, would you cal l
us c o l l e c t and l e t us know t h a t you' ve got them on the way?
A. I s u r e w i l l .
Q You' ve g o t our phone number, I t h i n k . You' ve been
t a l k i n g t o peopl e up he r e . Who have you been t a l k i n g t o ,
MACHUSICK?
A. Y e s , MACHUSICK .
Q J u s t t e l l MACHUSICK t h a t you' ve g o t some photo-
gr aphs and you would l i k e t o mai l them i n . H e ' l l pa s s it t o
me . You coul d t a l k t o me b u t I ' m us ua l l y i nvol ved i n t h i s .
I t would j u s t t a k e up t i m e . W e can us ua l l y g e t t h e s e t h i n g s
r epr oduced i n a pe r i od of a coupl e of days. It s h o u l d n ' t
t a ke much l onge r .
A. If I g o t t h e ne ga t i ve s , do you want t hos e o r t h e
p i c t u r e s ?
( GUTHRI E) 50
APP T-298
Q Act ual l y it probabl y would be--if you coul d i de nt i f y
the--are you t a l ki ng about 35 m i l l i m e t e r o r photographs? You' re
t a l ki ng about photographs.
I t would probabl y be b e s t i f you
s e nt t he negat i ve because t h a t way we know what t he sequence
of t he p r i n t s i s.
A. I us ual l y always keep t he negat i ves .
Q. W e can use e i t h e r one. W e t r y t o , whenever
pos s i bl e, work them i n sequence. I f we know what t he sequence
of photography wa s , t h a t would l oc a t e t he guy t h a t took t h e
pi c t ur e s .
A. W e l l , I w i l l look t hrough them and see i f I can
f i nd them.
COL WILSON: I would appr eci at e it. We're i nt e r e s t e d i n your
pi c t ur e s of 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, and 20 March, about t he t i m e
COCHRAN was k i l l e d and 3 t o 5 days a f t e r t h a t . That ' s t he
per i od we a r e t a l ki ng about . W e s ur e appr eci at e your coming
i n.
The hear i ng w i l l r eces s .
(The hear i ng r ecessed a t 1206 hour s, 2 February
1970.)
(GUTHRI E 1 APP T-298

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