Reflecting Reality--and Mystery: An Interview with Ermanno Olmi

Bert Cardullo
Although thematically he inverts neorealism by studying the human accommodation to difficult external
circumstances, Ermanno Olmi (born 1931) is perhaps the best exemplar after neorealism of the
neorealist style, ith its disdain (in theory if not alays in practice) for dramatic contrivance and fictive
invention! "is films offer slices of life#of ordinary people$s unspectacular lives#ith indefinite or
inconclusive endings% they simulate documentary methods in staging and photography, as they are all
shot in actual locations and almost all of them feature non&actors% and they aspire not to proposition or
evocation but only toard accurate representation! Olmi$s later or's depart from the neorealist style of
Il posto (19(1) and I fidanzati (19(3), his second and third pictures, but even they are characteri)ed by a
'ind of non&discursiveness!
As befits a master filmma'er, Ermanno Olmi is reluctant to give intervies% he prefers to let his films
spea' for themselves! Ever a shy, self&effacing man, Olmi as especially sparse ith ords hen
aarded the *olden +ion at the 19,, -enice festival for The Legend of the Holy Drinker, as ell as the
*olden .alm at the 19/, 0annes festival for The Tree of Wooden Clogs! And there hasn$t been a
published intervie ith Olmi for 1uite some time! One reason for the reticence is his embarrassment at
having to anser those all too fre1uent, nagging 2ho are you34 and 2hat have you been doing34
1uestions! 5or beteen the 0annes premieres of The Tree of Wooden Clogs (19/,) and Keep Walking
(19,3) lay five years of inactivity, then another four years until Long Live the Lady! (19,/) on the
6ilver +ion at -enice! 7uring much of this time, he had been restling ith a long and sometimes
paraly)ing illness, from hich he has since recovered% still, several years of inactivity continue to
separate his feature films!
8efore proper introductions could be made beteen us, Olmi 1ueried hy 9 had bothered to come to
intervie him at all: 2;ou 'no my ansers as ell as your 1uestions, so hat$s the sense of it34
<onetheless, spea'ing in rounded phrases ith a sonorous voice, he began to muse philosophically in his
+ombardy dialect about his profession, about ho he seldom needed to go far from home to film a story
that as 2part of me,4 about ho the only measure of a film$s importance is its ability to reflect the
human common denominator#or the need for spiritual values, for mystical tenderness beteen human
beings, in a cold orld! Genesis The Creation and the !lood (199=), for example, is 2about us,4 not an
homage to a distant deity in some picture&boo'! +i'e all his masterpieces, this portion of The "i#le
(produced by +ux), his feature&length episode in the series made for >aiuno and +ube&8eta 5ilm, is
meant to be a personal encounter, a film carved ith a storyteller$s imagination from handed&don oral
tradition that can enchant the hearts as ell as minds of an audience!
9n the same room ith us sat +oredana 7etto, Olmi$s ife, ta'ing it all in ith the same istful charm
and anchoring attention that captured the heart of the youth 7omenico in Il posto, perhaps this director$s
most important film! Il $osto is the story of a +ombard peasant boy ho applies for an available office
?ob in a large @ilan company, and at the same time falls shyly in love ith a young secretary, @agali
(+oredana 7etto)! Ahe core of the film is a reflection on or'#a reflection in this case dran from
Olmi$s on recollections of himself as an eighteen&year&old loo'ing for and finding employment at the
Edisonvolta company! (The Tree of Wooden Clogs is also autobiographical, in the sense that it as
dran from stories about country people told to him by his grandfather!)
Ahe folloing intervie too' place in August BCC, at Ermanno Olmi$s home in the +ombardy region of
northern 9taly, northeast of @ilan! @y plan as to get the director to open up a little more than usual
both by avoiding the sub?ect of his individual films themselves#the circumstances surrounding their
ma'ing, the people in them, the amount of money they made, their critical reception, etc!#and by
scrupulously avoiding 1uestions about his personal life! 9n order to accommodate me, Olmi spo'e in high
9talian (as opposed to his native +ombardy dialect) as much as possible!
Cineaste 9$d li'e to focus today, 6ignor Olmi, on a general or theoretical discussion of the
cinema, of your cinema, as opposed to a specific discussion of your individual films
themselves! 9s this acceptable to you3
Ermanno Olmi %es& that's fine( It also makes for a ni)e )hange of pa)e(
Cineaste <othing much happens in an Olmi film#that is, if you re1uire the e1uivalent of a
roller&coaster ride ith all the re1uisite thrills and chills! 9nstead of giving your audience a
boldly defined series of actions moving the story along at a furious pace, you share ith the
audience small moments that gradually build into the poerful understanding#emotional
as ell as cognitive#of an experience! Dsing real people instead of actors, you follo your
sub?ects as they live in real time, gently shaping their lives into fiction ith your authorial
hand! Ehy do you or' in this ay3
Olmi *hooting freely +ith a handheld )amera& never sele)ting anything in advan)e& I find
that everything happens almost spontaneously( It doesn't happen #y design& #y planning(
Why do I +ork in this +ay, "e)ause it is important that the operative te)hni)al moment #e
enveloped in the many emotions that are in the air at the moment one lives in the s)ene(
There must al+ays #e a parti)ipation& a )ollision +ith the moment- this is +hat determines
the )hoi)e of image( .ther+ise& it's like going up to a loved one and first thinking& /When
+e meet& I'll tou)h her hand& and then kiss her like this& then say these +ords ( ( (0
Cineaste Eor'ing in such a ay, do you get frustrated by the limitations of the frame3
Olmi The frame is not a frustration to me& perhaps also #e)ause I +ork +ithout pre1planned
shots( The frame #e)omes a +ay of fo)using& not a )omposition in itself& #e)ause it
)orresponds to the things I +ant to look at in a parti)ular moment( It's good that there is&
outside the frame& /a dis)ussion that )ontinues&0 as it +ere2something I )an imagine and
even desire( The same is true in literature& +here there are phrases that let you think of an
infinity of other +ords +hi)h are even more #eautiful #e)ause they aren't said(
Cineaste 9n pre&pac'aged movies of the "ollyood 'ind#hich are planned by the art
director and all the technical staff#the camera merely establishes a framing angle selected
in advance, and all the things ritten in the script occur ithin this fixed frame!
Olmi 3y o+n pro)edure& as you kno+& is different( 4t the #eginning& I don't think a#out
the )amera( I think a#out the am#ien)e and all the events that are to #e presented pla)e&
lighting& people& )olor( I )onstru)t the fi)tion I need( When I feel that this fi)tion
)orresponds to my needs& then I go to the )amera and let myself #e dragged along #y the
event +ithout esta#lishing #eforehand that /here0 I'll do a )lose1up& a long shot& or a )amera
movement( With ea)h shot I parti)ipate in the event almost instin)tively& gathering up +hat
happens and responding a))ordingly( It's rare that I de)ide anything in advan)e( I invent the
a)tion at the moment it takes pla)e(
I almost al+ays +ork +ith a handheld )amera and& having to get dire)t sound +hen there is
dialogue& I need a very heavy )amera sin)e I shoot in 56mm and therefore have to put it on
a tripod +ith +heels( I never do dolly shots or tra)ks- I never put the )amera at a level
higher or lo+er than a horizontal line dra+n at eye1level& though sometimes I go out on a
#al)ony or shoot through a +indo+( The )amera is on this +heeled tripod& #ut I move it as
if it +ere part of me& and al+ays at my o+n height( I al+ays use the )amera in this o#7e)tive
+ay(
Cineaste Ehat$s the difference beteen your method of filming and the one used in
documentaries3
Olmi The differen)e from the do)umentary isn't so mu)h in the te)hni8ues of shooting
#e)ause& for e9ample& as in my films& in a do)umentary there isn't any ela#orate lighting& to
name 7ust one te)hni)al element( !or me& the te)hni8ue of shooting is almost the same( The
differen)e is that in a do)umentary I shoot a reality from outside my +ill- thus my )riti)al
parti)ipation in the event lies only in )hoosing +ith the )amera the image that& at that
moment& I find most interesting in a do)umentation of the event( In the )ase of a fi)tion
film& reality doesn't happen outside my +ill& #ut is organized +ithin me& inside my
)ons)iousness( Thus& my )riti)al 7udgment and my suggestion of )ontent lie a#ove all in the
organization of the event( 4s for my approa)h to the shooting& I do it 7ust as in a
do)umentary& su)h that I do not de)eive the vie+er +ith a suggestion made through )ertain
a)ro#ati)s of the )amera or through the use of a redundant little tou)h in the lights or the
atmosphere( In sum& even +hen the )amera is o#7e)tive in this +ay& the su#7e)tivity is my
o+n(
Cineaste 7oesn$t this ma'e you feel all alone, as if you are creating a orld to the
exclusion of everyone else3
Olmi I never feel alone( I'm )onvin)ed that parti)ipating +ith me in the a)tion& in this
event& are many others( It's not my personal point of vie+( Certainly it is& in the sense that I
de)ide( Ho+ever& the sensation I have is that these )hoi)es of mine are not only mine #ut
that others have them& too( I really don't feel e9)lusive& that I e9)lude any#ody( There is a
)ertain type of intelle)tual +ho& either out of presumption to+ards himself or )ontempt
to+ards others2+hi)h is the same thing2has the am#ition to #e so su#7e)tive& to #e the
only one& to o#serve life and events from su)h an isolated perspe)tive( 3y am#ition& instead
2perhaps #e)ause of my peasant:+orker e9tra)tion2is to look at the +orld ith others& not
as an aristo)rati) intelle)tual& an elitist& #ut as someone +ho mi9es +ith other people as
mu)h as possi#le(
Cineaste 8ut there are excellent directors ho, unli'e you, or' ith camera operators!
As you have been saying, you yourself are behind the camera!
Olmi Well& everyone makes love the +ay they +ant to& in the +ay that they themselves
feel( 4gain& )onventional shooting is like going up to a loved one and first thinking& /When
+e meet& I'll tou)h her hand& and then kiss her like this& then utter these +ords ( ( (0
Certainly +e go to this intimate meeting +ith a +hole series of motives& #ut it is only during
the meeting itself that these motives assume their final e9pressive physiognomy( There is
another reason I am #ehind the )amera( "e)ause other+ise it +ould #e like going up to a
girl and saying& /I love you #ut no+ he's going to kiss you for me(0
Cineaste Ehy do you use non&professional actors in your films3
Olmi I use non1professionals for more or less the same reasons I )hoose a real lands)ape
over one re)onstru)ted in the studio( !or 8arry +yndon& for e9ample& *tanley Ku#ri)k
looked all over ;urope to find the pastoral lands)ape and atmosphere that )orresponded to
his e9pressive needs( .nto this )ountryside2this )hoi)e that he made from the real2he
grafted his professional a)tors( I prefer to )ontinue su)h a relationship +ith reality& #ut not
+ith professional a)tors( The real tree is )ontinuously )reative- the artifi)ial tree isn't( The
fake tree responds to the )reative needs of a fa)t <let us )all it= already laid out and defined&
and stops there( The real tree has )ontinuing virtues it responds to and refle)ts light in ever
ne+ +ays( When you shoot in the studio& you've set up the lighting in advan)e- the lights
are the same from #eginning to end( %ou )an shoot the same shot a hundred times and it
+ill #e the same( The real tree& on the other hand& is in )ontinual evolution& modifying itself
inside the situation& so mu)h so that you #e)ome an9ious lest you not #e a#le to )apture a
parti)ular moment +hen the light is )hanging( This& too& is very #eautiful& #e)ause #et+een
the first shot and the fourth and the fifth there are variations2the shot is )ontinually
palpitating& in a manner of speaking( Thus it goes +ith a)tors& as +ell(
Cineaste 6o you$re saying that you can never get this same effect#of 2palpitation4#from
a professional actor!
Olmi I have al+ays felt in professional a)tors a #it of )ard#oard +ith respe)t to the great
palpitating authenti)ity of the real )hara)ter& +ho +as not )hosen& as professionals are& for
their #eautiful looks& or #e)ause they )hara)terize a )ertain type( !or instan)e& in a film
a#out peasants I )hoose the a)tors from the peasant +orld( I don't use a fig to make a pear(
These people& these )hara)ters& #ring to the film a +eight& really a )onstitution of truth&
+hi)h& provoked #y the situations in +hi)h the )hara)ters find themselves& )reates
palpitations2those vi#rations so right& so real& so #elieva#le& and therefore not repeata#le(
4t the t+entieth take the professional a)tor still )ries( The real a)tor& the )hara)ter taken
from life& +on't do more than four repetitions( It's like )apturing a light either you get it at
that moment or you don't get it at all( "ut it isn't that he e9hausts himself- he #e)omes
something else( 4nd my emotion lies also in follo+ing these things& at the moment they
o))ur(
Cineaste Ehat$s the relationship of your non&professional performer to the reality from
hich he is dran3
Olmi *in)e all manifestations of life are life& it's not that there is more life in a man& in one
of my non1professionals& than in a frog or a tree( Life is life represented in all forms of
e9pression( It's so e9traordinary and mysterious that +e )annot kno+ all these forms of life(
Truth is the same thing( It's not true& for e9ample& that there is more truth in dialogue
#et+een real persons than in a poem or a pie)e of fi)tion( This depends on the
presuppositions that have generated the +ords or the dialogue& the truth of one's authenti)
emotions( !alse emotions are al+ays dis)overed for +hat they are(
*ome +ould say that the ra+ material of film is the image& #ut it's not 7ust the image( Today
+e have the image& sound& rhythm( 4ll that is so simple& and at the same time it is )omple9&
7ust like the un+inding or playing out of life itself( While sound is one moment here& and
the image there& )inema is this e9traordinary instrument that allo+s you to reprodu)e2#ut
/reprodu)e0 isn't the e9a)t +ord2to repropose some of those moments& some of the
fra)tions of life& to sele)t and )ompose them into a ne+ mosai) through the editing( This
operation )onsists of )hoi)e& image& sound& rhythm& synthesis(
In the )ase of my films& they )ontain a reality that is entirely taken from the real( Within this
reality there is the e)ho of the do)umentary& #ut this is do)umentation that is )riti)ally
penetrated and put at the servi)e of the )ontent presented(
Cineaste Dnli'e many commercial directors, then, you see the cinema as a hole art, as
an art unto itself!
Olmi %es& for in a )ertain sense& it's a )ontradi)tion to use )inema as a su#stitute for
literature& for musi)& for the theater( ;ven +hen +e +ant to make a film full of )on)eptual
ideas& it's o#vious +e must make )hoi)es of representation from life2)hoi)es em#odied in
image& sound& and rhythm2to e9press those ideas( This means that the image& the musi)&
the a)tion aren't #y themselves suffi)ient vehi)les to e9press a )on)ept( They #e)ome
signifi)ant& if at all& all together( 4nd this is +hy I must e9press a )on)ept or an idea
through the dialogue #et+een the main )hara)ters& shots of their fa)es& shots of ho+ they
move& in +hat situations& in +hat light& +ith +hat rhythm(
It's not that one element repeats the other- #ut& 7ust as in literature I )hoose this +ord rather
than one that )losely resem#les it& so too in film I )hoose pre)isely that +ord #e)ause only
that +ord )an e9press the parti)ular thing I +ant( Then I )hoose this image #e)ause it )an
say something #etter than anything else& and that sound #e)ause ( ( ( %ou see, It's as if the
)inema +ere a language that& instead of having only +ords& has +ords& images& sounds2a
language& in short& that is the language of life itself( We speak +ith gestures& +ith looks&
+ith the very sound of the +ord as +ell as +ith its meaning( If I say /Good evening0 to you
in three different +ays& the sound is different ea)h time& as is the fa)ial e9pression and
therefore the meaning( This is )inema nouns& ad7e)tives& parts of senten)es that #elong to a
spe)ial synta9 and organization(
Cineaste "o does lighting figure in everything you$ve said so far, in your approach to
the filming of reality3
Olmi "eauty& emotions& must #e revealed #y indi)ations that most resem#le reality& not #y
artifi)ial ones- and this )ertainly in)ludes lighting( Why, *o that the vie+er's approa)h to
the s)reen isn't prote)ted or even de)eived #y devi)es& #ut that instead he su))eeds in
dis)overing #y himself )ertain values& )ertain atmospheres& )ertain states of mind& through
indi)ations on the s)reen that are more those of life than those of theatri)ality& in the sense
of spe)ta)le(
When I do use artifi)ial illumination& it's #e)ause su)h illumination is ne)essary for the
effe)ts of the film sto)k- other+ise& sometimes the light doesn't rea)h the film( "ut I also do
this at the same time that I respe)t the natural environment as mu)h as possi#le(
Cineaste Ehat about filters3
Olmi I never use spe)ial filters to alter or in some +ay modify the tonalities of the natural
atmosphere( !or instan)e& +hen I shoot a )lose1up of the female lead in a romanti) situation&
I don't use filters that normally a s)ript +ould )all for in order to make her seem
)ommer)ially #eautiful or alluring( To give you a te)hni)al e9ample from shooting& +hen I
film in a parti)ular pla)e& I don't set up the framing and then& on the #asis of that framing&
esta#lish the lighting( I first set up the kind of lighting that +ill allo+ me to shoot any+here
in that lo)ation(
*in)e I do the )amera+ork myself2again& I operate the )amera& +hi)h is not the same thing
as doing the lighting& for that is the 7o# of my )inematographer2I kno+ e9a)tly +hat I have
shot& so mu)h so that often I don't even have to look at the developed film& the rushes or the
/dailies(0 I 7ust )all the developer and if he says the negative is okay& it's fine for me(
Cineaste 9 am assuming you do your on editing!
Olmi .f )ourse( I am one +ho still +orks a great deal at the 3ovieola( !or Ahe Aree of
Eooden 0logs& I +as there for a +hole year( The editing is the moment +hen all the
emotions I felt +hen I #egan to think a#out the film& to )on)eive it& to )hoose the lo)ations&
the fa)es2all these things2the editing is the moment +hen everything )omes together(
%ou )ould say that during this time& I total my #ill& I +ork out this )hoi)e or that synthesis& I
sum up the emotion of all my emotions )on)erning this parti)ular film( It's not
administrative +ork in the sense that I look at the s)ript and say& /.kay& for this s)ene +e
need su)h1and1su)h a )ut( 4nd for that s)ene a )lose1up is re8uired(0 It's a ne+ )reative
moment& an e9traordinary moment( This is #e)ause I rarely +rite systemati)& organized
s)reenplays- instead& I s)ri##le lots of notes( When I'm shooting& I arrive on the set +ith all
these notes2little pie)es of paper filled +ith 7ottings a#out dialogue& atmosphere& fa)es2
and there& on the set& I #egin a ne+ )riti)al1)reative phase2not )riti)al1e9e)utive2as I
think a#out the shots I +ant to take( The editing& naturally& is a )ontinuation of this )riti)al1
)reative pro)ess(
Cineaste Ehere, or ho, does you riting begin3
Olmi !irst I +rite do+n the suggestion or indi)ation of a su#7e)t or a story& then I divide it
up into many )hapters& many moments& like the movements of a )on)erto( 4nd everything
that )omes into my mind regarding one of these )hapters2at any moment +hen I am
s)outing lo)ations or the like2I +rite do+n on pie)es of paper and in)orporate them into
the )hapter in 8uestion( Then& +hen it )omes time to shoot& I organize the fra)tion of the
story I am shooting in the most spe)ifi) +ay possi#le( "ut +hen I'm there& shooting& I am
often& let's not say ready to )hange everything& #ut to add or to su#tra)t as I see fit( That's
+hy I never have a /)ompleted0 s)ript( This is ho+ I like to shoot& ho+ I frame my shots
and film the a)tion(
When I'm at the 3ovieola& I don't look at any of the +ritten stuff again( It's a ne+ event
that is o))urring at the editing ta#le( *o artisti) )reation& like romanti) love& is al+ays in the
a)t of #e)oming- it's al+ays in motion& +ith no real stops( !or +hen there are stops& one
isn't making love(
Cineaste Ehat do you thin' of the manipulative aspect of filmma'ing, of ho movies
manipulate their audiences#all movies& possi#ly in)luding your o+n,
Olmi: ;verything is manipulated in a sense& everything not only the )inema #ut the
e)onomy& religion& any of man's a)tivities )an #e )orrupting2or saving( It really depends
on the moral #asis upon +hi)h you do these things& #oth in produ)ing and in )onsuming
them( ;ven the automo#ile )an #e )orrupting or saving( If +e use it to dangerously pass
others& to give us a sense of po+er through the engine's horsepo+er instead of through the
horsepo+er of our o+n minds and imaginations& then the automo#ile )an #e a negative
thing( !or e9ample& even neorealism degenerated at a )ertain point #e)ause it had #e)ome a
fad& a fashion& a sli)k operation& and suddenly it +as enough to 8ualify as a /neorealisti)0
dire)tor if you made a )ertain type of film& in a )ertain +ay2never mind its su#stan)e( This
also happened to the !ren)h >e+ Wave after a +hile& +here if you didn't make the )amera
7iggle +hen you +ere shooting a su#7e)t& someho+ it didn't seem /real(0 "ut it's real if you
are real in front of +hat you are shooting& if the things that you are filming have an
authenti)ity of their o+n( If not& you may as +ell +ork in the theater& +hi)h has its o+n
aestheti) and reason for #eing apart from those of the )inema(
*o unmasking the illusion is fine& if that's +hat it takes to keep realism from degenerating
into artifi)e( !or& )learly& resem#lan)e to reality is not reality( This is o#vious2or it should
#e(
Cineaste ;ou are beginning to sound li'e a 8rechtian in the cinema!
Olmi %es& #ut sometimes& even in "re)ht's aestheti)& this attempt to /disen)hant0 the
spe)tator& to remind him that +hat he is seeing is theater& in itself reinfor)es the magi)al
)omponent of theater( When the grandmother tells her grandson a fairy tale& the story of
Little ?ed ?iding Hood +ith all the emotions inherent in it2the girl& the +oods& the +olf2
the grandmother's fa)e )ontinually reminds the grandson that #et+een the reality of the
fairy tale and himself there is al+ays his grandmother's fa)e( >onetheless& sometimes the
grandmother in)reases& #y her very tone and e9pression& the fairy tale's po+er of
suggestion& its for)efulness( *o this attempt to mediate #et+een the magi) of theatri)ality&
or the illusion of reality& and the e9perien)e of the spe)tator2to disen)hant or distan)e2
)an #e reinfor)ing instead of the opposite(
In my opinion& ho+ever& neither takes a+ay from or adds very mu)h to the need man has to
e9perien)e #oth the emotion of fear& at a )hild's level& and the satisfa)tion of re)ognition& at
an adult level& through the telling of the fairy tale( This is #e)ause +e all +ant to share the
feeling of not risking our safety& of not #eing in dire)t )onta)t +ith the frightful event& #ut
instead in the )omforting arms of Grandmother& in the arm)hair at the )inema& or in our
living rooms in front of the television set& +hi)h prote)ts us and guarantees our safety( We
even prote)t ourselves to the point that sometimes authenti) reality2television ne+s or
do)umentary film& for instan)e2#e)omes transformed& in the safety of our homes& into its
o+n kind of fairy tale& #y means of +hi)h +e see real events far removed from our
)ons)ien)es and our responsi#ility( In su)h a fairy1tale atmosphere& these events do not
tou)h us physi)ally or morally- +e parti)ipate in them neither in #ody nor in soul( What +e
see /en)hants0 us& and +e +ant to see it in the )onte9t of this en)hantment( Indeed& +e
en7oy the fa)t that& yes& theater and )inema2espe)ially the )inema2remind us of reality&
#ut they remind us even more of the fairy tale( This is +hy +e )an +at)h +ith total
)on)entration and e9)itement as people fight and kill ea)h other on the s)reen& at the same
time as +e self1assuredly stir our )offee or eat our pop)orn(
Cineaste Ahese things are hard to tal' about in terms of classifications or designations#
fairy tale, reality, disenchantment, empathy, etc!#this is something 9 have learned!
Olmi %es& and let's take "re)ht again as an instan)e( What does "re)ht try to do, To
/disen)hant0 us so that our )riti)al fa)ulty is al+ays a)tive( Thus he says& /Don't #e taken
in #y this( "e )areful& I am a)ting- +at)h )arefully so that you +on't #e taken in(0 I
understand this )riti)al distan)e( The spe)tator in the )inema or the theater feels fear- he
tells himself that +hat he's seeing is not real so that he )an feel defended against it- and
then he returns #a)k to his fear( *u)h )riti)al distan)ing is like Grandmother's fa)e it's
Grandmother +ho is telling the story& and this is +hy her grandson )an )omforta#ly feel his
fear( *u)h a theory as "re)ht's is important for the vie+er& #ut +hat happens, "re)ht
doesn't al+ays a)hieve the result that he intended2in fa)t& he rarely does( Why, "e)ause if
you )ome +ith your o+n a#ility to )riti)ally distan)e yourself from an aestheti) event& to
analyze it #y yourself& sometimes you )an #e distur#ed #y someone +ho +ants to /)ue0
your distan)ing or to distan)e you from +hat you're seeing even more than you ordinarily
+ould #e( If& on the other hand& you don't have any a#ility& on your o+n& to )riti)ally
distan)e yourself from an aestheti) event2if you are over1emotional& let us say& and feel
immediately stirred 7ust #y the e9terior aspe)t of )hara)ters kissing or horses galloping2
you )an feel e8ually disenfran)hised #y someone +ho +ants to pull you #a)k from +hat
you are seeing( .r the opposite an emotional spe)tator )an take the distan)ing devi)es so
seriously that he #e)omes nothing but distan)ed from the artisti) event& to the point that he
has )ompletely& and misguidedly& suppressed his emotional involvement in that event(
$arti)ipation in an artisti) event& in short& is many1sided and more )omple9 than most
theorists make it out to #e( .ne )an parti)ipate in an emotion& for e9ample& #ut& at the same
time& one )an for)e a series of /postponents0 on one's emotions that )annot #e seen +ith the
eyes and may not even #e a)kno+ledged #y the )ons)ious mind( $eople are different& and
so is the )amera the same )amera in the hands of ten different people shooting the same
pi)ture +ill& +ithout 8uestion& take ten different pi)tures(
Cineaste 0ould you spea' a bit no about your early experiences of the cinema and your
contact ith American movies3
Olmi I +ould very mu)h like to do so( When& as a )hild& I +ent out to the )inema& I al+ays
felt good& and I felt espe)ially good +hen I started seeing the differen)es #et+een
Holly+ood )inema2global Holly+ood )inema& if you +ill& not 7ust the 4meri)an variety2
and the )inema of Italian neorealism& parti)ularly the first films of ?o#erto ?ossellini( I +as
#et+een fifteen and seventeen years old at the time& and in those years I passed from the
loving arms of my grandmother& +ho told me +onderfully suggestive fairy tales& to the
#itter em#ra)e of my father& +ho #egan to introdu)e me to life's )omple9ities and
disappointments( The films of ?ossellini mark this turning point for me( I remem#er leaving
a s)reening of .aisan2there +ere only seven or eight of us in the audien)e& although the
)inemas +ere al+ays pa)ked +hen they sho+ed popular 4meri)an movies like 9$ll 8e
;ours or Ahe @an 9 +ove( I +ent to see .aisan pro#a#ly #e)ause I had already seen all the
other movies around( 4nd strangely enough& this pi)ture made me realize that it +as time to
tear myself +ay from my grandmother's #osom( Leaving the movie theater after .aisan& I
)ontinued to e9perien)e the strong emotions I had felt +hile +at)hing this film& #e)ause it
+as life that I had seen up on the s)reen2not movie formulas( 4nd the )inema #egan to
fas)inate me& the idea of making films from a uni8ue perspe)tive #ut al+ays in
)olla#oration +ith others( !ilm& for me& is a +ay of #eing together +ith other people& #oth
+hen I make films and +hen my films are in the )ompany of their audien)e& the vie+ers(
I loved Holly+ood movies very mu)h at the time& #ut if today my grandmother )ame #a)k
and +anted to take me on her knee and tell me the story of Little ?ed ?iding Hood& I
+ouldn't like it& of )ourse( This is +hat +e )all #e)oming an adult vie+er(
Cineaste 9 guess television didn$t enter into the picture for you in the late 19=Cs!
Olmi >o& not at all I +as too young and the medium +as too young( "ut I do think that if
people today +ould turn off their o+n television sets& film )ould still hold great value for
them( In fa)t& if it +eren't for the )inema& )ontemporary so)iety +ould #e very
disorganized( The )inema is a kind of )omfort& espe)ially +hen it's a false mirror like that
of *no+ White's grandmother( We ant the )inema& that representation of ourselves +hi)h
someho+ says +e are all fine and good& even +hen it presents the negative aspe)ts of life(
We are saved& you )ould say& #y this filmi) mirror that )ontinually de)eives us- +e are its
ultimate #enefi)iaries& +e as a so)iety& as a people& as individual human #eings(
4s far as I am )on)erned& ho+ever& I )ould live +ithout )inema if they took it a+ay from
me( "ut I )ouldn't live +ithout my +ife& my )hildren& my friends2+ithout people&
espe)ially those near and dear to me( This may seem like an infantile )hoi)e2your family
or the fli)ks! <as you 4meri)ans like to )all the movies=2#ut it's +orth keeping in mind in
an era +here mu)h +riting a#out film& and many movies themselves& seem to have less and
less to do +ith human life as most of us e9perien)e it from day to day(
Cineaste Eell, there are a lot of businessmen ho ould disagree ith your choice of
family and friends over the cinema!
Olmi >aturally( *in)e ours is a so)iety2a glo#al or international one at this point2that
strains to a)hieve )ertain o#7e)tives& among +hi)h profit to+ers a#ove all others& it's
o#vious that the )inema as a mass medium& as a means of popular )ommuni)ation& is
strongly and even intensely utilized to su)h an end the attainment of profit& +hi)h need not
#e of the e9)lusively monetary kind( It )ould #e ideologi)al /profit0 as +ell( Whole
e)onomies themselves initiate their o+n strategies for profit& #y means of +hi)h the masses&
+ithin a grand design )onstru)ted #y 7ust a fe+& fall into a finan)ial trap( "ut there )omes a
time +hen the e)onomy revolts and turns against not only its protagonists& the industrial
giants& #ut also against the +orkers themselves( Then there must #e some kind of re)koning&
some taking into a))ount& if not a revolt itself& and this must involve everyone& in)luding the
/organizers of profit(0 *o it is +ith the )inema( 4t the #eginning& +hen the audien)e sa+ a
train on the s)reen rushing to+ards them& they hid under their seats- they +ere afraid& given
film's po+er of visualization(
Today& to give only an inkling of +hat has happened sin)e& you have to sta# a man in the
stoma)h nine times to get the same effe)t( 4nd everyone is paying a very high pri)e&
figuratively as +ell as literally& for this kind of e9ploitation( "ut I think that any event2
so)ial& politi)al& e)onomi)& or artisti)2produ)es )ertain negative effe)ts that +ere meant to
#e produ)ed #y #etraying )ertain ideas or prin)iples( The only 8uestion is ho+ long it +ill
take for a revolt on the part of those +ho produ)e as +ell as those +ho )onsume su)h
)inema( I am not an optimist at all )osts& #ut I do #elieve in the +ill to survive of life itself&
and that +hen +e have )ome to the end of our )unning and )leverness to tri)k the good
earth& and +ith it *aint Cinema& into produ)ing more and more& the #oth of them +ill re#el
against us( !ilm art2)inematographi) suggestion& if you like2+ill refuse at a )ertain point
to parti)ipate in its o+n )orruption and even prostitution( This is not 7ust a dis)ussion
involving the )inema& ho+ever& as I have tried to make )lear& #e)ause the )inema is only
one element in the general e)onomi) noise that surrounds us(
Cineaste 9t is certainly true today that many an auteur#one ho has the talent to ma'e
1uality films#is strongly influenced by an anxiety for commercial success!
Olmi %es( !or e9ample& if their film doesn't make millions more than another movie
released at the same time& lots of dire)tors feel inferior and even dis)onsolate2so mu)h are
they influen)ed #y this logi) of e9aggerated profit( "ut the moment +ill )ome +hen +e
#e)ome so pained #y the e)onomi) and artisti) )hoi)es +e have made that +e +ill go #a)k
to looking at ourselves in the mirror& to looking into ea)h other's eyes sin)erely& and finding
there the reality +e have sa)rifi)ed to the #it)h1goddess of )apitalisti) su))ess(