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w ith
J o h n
T h o rn e
a n d
J im
M a rtin .
T h a t
w as
p ro b a b ly
th e
A rs t
w e e ke n d
in
D e c e m b e r,
o r
a t
le a s t
2
w e e ks
a fte r
th e
a s s a s s in a tio n -m o re
lik e ly
3 .
M r.
L IF Z B E L E R .
D o
yo u
re c a ll
w h a t
w as
am ong
th e s e
th in g s
th a t
R o b e rt
O s w a ld
a n d
M r.
M a rtin
to o k ?
M rs.
P A IS E .
T h e y
to o k
th e
c lo th e s
fro m
th e
c lo s e t,
b o x e s
a n d
th in g s
th a t
I
,d id
n o t
lo o k
in to .
I
h a ve
h e a rd
\u2018fro m
th e
p o lic e
th a t
it
a ls o
in c lu d e d
a n
o ld
cam era
w h ic h
th e y
h a d
to
c h a s e
la te r
a n d
w e n t
u p
to
R o b e rt
O s w a ld \u2019s
to
tln d
it.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W ere
th e re
a n y
n e w s p a p e rs
o r
m a g a z in e s
o r
a n y th in g
lik e
th a t,
c o p ie s
o f
T h e
M ilita n t
o r
T h e
W orker?
M rs.
P A IK E .
I
d id
n o t
see-m ost
o f
w h a t
w as
d o n e
w as
w h a t
w as
p u t
in .
I
b u s ie d
m y s e lf
in
th e
b e d ro o m
g e ttin g
o u t
w h a t
w as
to
g o -w h a t
w as
th e
O s w a ld \u2019s
p ro p e rty .
M r.
L IE B E L E K
O s w a ld
d id ,
o f
c o u rs e ,
re c e iv e
c o p ie s
o f
T h e
W orker
a n d
T h e
M ilita n t
a t
yo u r
a d d re s s ?
M rs.
P A IX E .
I
h a d
s e e n
th a t
h e
re c e iv e d
T h e
W orker.
I
h a d
n e ve r
o p e n e d
T h e
M ilita n t.
I
n o tic e d
o n
S o ve m b e r
2 3
w h e n
I
lo o k e d
a t
th e
p ile
o f
s e c o n d
c la s s
m a il
a n d
th ird
c la s s
m a il
th a t
w as
w a itin g
fo r
h im
to
com e
th a t
w e e ke n d
th a t
it
in c lu d e d
a
c o p y
o f
T h e
M ilita n t-th a t
w as
th e
firs t
I
h a d
n o tic e d .
T h is
is
a fte r
it
h a d
b e e n
in
th e
n e w s p a p e r.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
d o n \u2019t
rem em ber
w h ic h
is s u e
o f
T h e
M ilita n t
th a t
w a s ,
d o
yo u ?
M rs.
P A IN E .
It
m ust
h a ve
b e e n
th e
c u rre n t
o n e .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W hat
h a p p e n e d
to
th a t?
M rs.
P A IX E .
I
th re w
it
a w a y,
a lo n g
w ith
T h e
W orker
a n d
a
R u s s ia n
p a p e r,
I
g u e s s .
It
w as
u n o p e n e d
a n d
s till
in
its
ja c k e t.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
D o
yo u
rem em ber
w h e n
it
h a d
com e?
M rs.
P A IN E .
D u rin g
th e
w e e k -w e ll,
n o
; it
c o u ld
h a ve
b e e n
d u rin g
th e
2
w e e ks
s in c e
h e
h a d n \u2019t
b e e n
th e re
o ve r
th e
w e e ke n d .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
O f
c o u rs e ,
h e
d id
com e
u p
o n
T h u rs d a y
n ig h t?
M rs.
P A IX E .
W e ll,
it
w a s n \u2019t
d is c u s s e d
a n d
it
w a s n \u2019t
p o in te d
o u t
th e n .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W e ll,
h o w
d id
h e
u s u a lly
h a n d le
th is
p ro b le m
w ith
th e
m a il-
h e
w as
a c c u s to m e d
to
re c e iv in g
th e s e
p ie c e s -th e
is s u e s
o f
th e
n e w s p a p e r,
a t
yo u r
a d d re s s ,
w a s n \u2019t
h e ?
M rs.
P A IN E .
I
h a n d e d
it
to
h im
o r
la id
th e m
o n
th e
c o u c h
fo r
h im
to
lo o k
a t
w h e n
h e
a rriv e d
o n
F rid a y
n ig h t.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
B u t
h e
h a d n \u2019t
lo o k e d
a t
th e s e
n e w s p a p e rs
th a t
h a d
com e
d u rin g
th e
p e rio d
fro m
h is
la s t
v is it
to
T h u rs d a y ?
M rs.
P A IS E .
T h a t\u2019s
rig h t
; he
h a d
n o t
b e e n
th e re .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
H e
d id n \u2019t
lo o k
a t
th o s e
o n
T h u rs d a y ?
M rs.
P A IN E .
N o.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
H ow
m any
n e w s p a p e rs
d id
yo u
th ro w
a w a y,
d o
yo u
rem em ber
w h a t
th e y
w e re ?
M rs.
P A IN E .
W e ll,
I
re c a ll
p a rtic u la rly
T h e
M ilita n t
a n d
T h e
W orker
a n d
it
seem s
to
m e
th e re
w as
th e
R u s s ia n
M in s k
p a p e r
to o ,
b u t
I\u2019m
n o t
c e rta in .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W as
th e re
ju s t
o n e
c o p y
o f
T h e
M ilita n t?
M rs.
P A IN E .
Y e s .
M r.
L IE B E L E B .
A n d
yo u
d o n \u2019t
rem em ber
w h e n
it
h a d
com e?
M rs.
P A IN E .
N o.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
H ow
m any
c o p ie s
o f
T h e
W orker?
M rs.
P A IN E .
O ne.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
I
b e lie v e
th a t\u2019s
a ll.
T h a n k
yo u
fo r
c o m in g
in .
M rs.
P A IN E .
A ll
rig h t.
T E S T IM O N Y
O F
M IC H A E L
R A L P H
P A IN E
T h e
te s tim o n y
o f
M ic h a e l
R a lp h
P a in e
w as
ta k e n
a t
1 2 :0 5
p .m .,
o n
J u ly
2 3 ,
1 9 6 1 ,
in
th e
o ffic e
o f
th e
U .S .
A tto rn e y ,
3 0 1
P o s t
O ffic e
B u ild in g ,
B rya n
a n d
E rva y
S tre e ts ,
D a lla s ,
T e x .,
b y
M r.
W e s le y
J .
L ie b e le r,
a s s is ta n t
c o u n s e l
o f
th e
P re s id e n t\u2019s
C o m m is s io n .
3 9 8
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W o u ld
yo u
ra is e
yo u r
rig h t
h a n d
a n d
ta k e
th e
o a th ,
p le a s e ?
D o
yo u
s o le m n ly
s w e a r
th a t
th e
te s tim o n y
you
a re
ahout
to
g iv e
w ill
h e
th e
tru th ,
th e
w h o le
tru th
a n d
n o th in g
b u t
th e
tru th ,
s o
h e lp
yo u
G od?
M r.
P A IN E .
Y e s ;
I
d o .
M r.
L IE R E L E R .
W o u ld
yo u
s ta te
yo u r
nam e
fo r
th e
re c o rd ?
M r.
P A IS E .
M ic h a e l
R a lp h
P a in e .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
a re
fa m ilia r
w ith
th e
C o m m is s io n \u2019s
p ro c e d u re
a n d
yo u
h a ve
te s tifie d
b e fo re
th e
C o m m is s io n
a s
I
h a ve
h e re to fo re
in d ic a te d ,
is n \u2019t
th a t
c o rre c t?
M r.
P A IN E .
I
h a ve
te s tifie d
b e fo re -y e s .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
te s tifie d
p re v io u s ly
th a t
w h e n
yo u
firs t
m et
L e e
O s w a ld
in
A p ril
1 9 6 3 ,
th a t
yo u
d is c u s s e d
to
som e
e x te n t
G en.
E d w in
A .
W a lk e r?
M r.
P A IN E .
Y e s
; I
th in k
w e
d id
d is c u s s
h im
in
p a s s in g .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
D id
O s w a ld
e ve r
in d ic a te
to
yo u
in
a n y
w ay
th a t
h e
h a d
b e e n
in v o lv e d
in
th e
a tte m p t
o n
G e n e ra l
W a lk e r\u2019s
life ?
M r.
P A IN E .
R \u2019d t
th a t
I
rem em ber
a t
a ll-n o th in g
w h a tso e ve r.
I
th in k
th e
o n ly
th in g
h e
d id -th e
o n ly
th in g
th a t
I
c a n
rem em ber
n o w ,
w as
th a t
h e
seem ed
to
h a ve
a
s m ile
in
re g a rd
to
th a t
p e rs o n .
It
w as
in s c ru ta b le -1
d id n \u2019t
kn o w
w h a t
h e
w as
s m ilin g
a b o u t-I
ju s t
th o u g h t
p e rh a p s
it
w a s -th e
g u y
assum ed
it
w as
ra p p o rt
fo r
a
p e rs o n
w ho
w as
a n
e x tre m e
p ro p o n e n t
o f
a
c e rta in
k in d
o f
p a trio tis m
o r
s o m e th in g .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
G e n e ra l
W a lk e r
w a s ?
M r.
P A IN E .
G e n e ra l
W a lk e r
w a s -y e s .
M r.
L IE B E L .E R .
N ow ,
w h e n
yo u
firs t
m et
O s w a ld ,
a s
I
re c a ll,
o n
A p ril
2 ,
I
b e lie v e
it
w a s ,
o f
1 9 6 3 ?
M r.
P A IN E .
Y o u
h a ve
b e e n
k e e p in g
u p
w ith
th is -1
h a v e n \u2019t
b e e n
th in k in g
a b o u t
O s w a ld
fo r
a
ye a r.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
d o n \u2019t
h a ve
a n y
re c o lle c tio n
a s
to
th e
d a te
a t
th is
p o in t?
M r.
P A IN E .
N o.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
In
a n y
e v e n t,
yo u
d id
m eet
O s w a ld
s o m e tim e
in
A p ril,
fo r
th e
firs t
tim e ;
d o
yo u
re c a ll
w h e th e r
it
w as
b e fo re
o r
a fte r
th a t
W a lk e r
h a d
b e e n
a tb a c k e d ?
M r.
P A IN E .
I
d o n \u2019t
re c a ll
n o w ;
a n d
a s
I
re m e m b e r-b a c k
in
th e
fa ll-1
w a s n \u2019t
a w a re
th e n
w h e th e r
it
w as
b e fo re
o r
a fte r.
It
is n \u2019t
ju s t
a
la p s e
o f
m em ory
n o w .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
D o
yo u
rem em ber
d is c u s s in g
w ith
O s w a ld
th e
fa c t
th a t
som e-
o n e
h a d
s h o t
sat General
W a lk e r?
M r.
P A IN E .
N o -1
d o n \u2019t.
T h a t
w o u ld
h a ve
le d
m e
to
th in k
it
w as
p rio r
to
h is
b e in g
s h o t
a t.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
a re
re fe rrin g
to
th is
s p e c ific
d a te .
N ow ,
m y
q u e s tio n
m eans
to
com prehend
a n y
tim d o
yo u
rem em ber
d is c u s s in g
a t
a n y
tim e
w ith
O s w a ld
th e
fa c t
th a t
G e n e ra l
W a lk e r
h a d
b e e n
a tta c k e d ?
M r.
P A IN E .
N o:
I
d id
n o t.
I
d id n \u2019t
s e e
h im -1
s a w
h im
th a t
o n e
e v e n in g ,
yo u
s e e ,
a n d
th e n
I
d id n \u2019t
s e e
h im
fo r
a
s p a c e
o f
som e
tim e .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y o u
d id n \u2019t
s e e
h im
a fte r
th a t
o n e
tim e
in
A p ril
u n til
a fte r
h e
h a d
re tu rn e d
fro m
N ew
O rle a n s ?
M r.
P A IN E .
I
g u e s s
th a t\u2019s
rig h t.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
S o ,
th a t
w o u ld
h a ve
b e e n
in
O c to b e r
X 9 6 3 ?
M r.
P A IN E .
Y e s .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
O n
J u n e
1 1 ,
1 9 6 4 ,
M a rin a
O s w a ld
te s tifie d
b e fo re
th e
C o m m is -
s io n
a t
w h ic h
tim e
th e
fo llo w in g
c o llo q u y
o c c u rre d ,
a s
in d ic a te d
o n
p a g e
7 3 6 3
o f
th e
C o m m is s io n \u2019s
tra n s c rip t
:
M r.
M C K E N Z IE .
M rs.
O s w a ld ,
yo u
s a y ,
o r
yo u
s a id
a
fe w
m in u te s
a g o ,
th a t
M r.
P a in e
kn e w
o r
kn o w s
m ore
a b o u t
yo u r
h u s b a n d \u2019s
a ttitu d e
a b o u t
th e
U n ite d
S ta te s
th a n
yo u
d o .
W hy
d id
yo u
s a y
th a t?
M rs.
O S W A LD .
B e c a u s e
m y
h u s b a n d \u2019s
fa v o rite
to p ic
o f
d is c u s s io n
w as
p o litic s
a n d
w h o e ve r
h e
w as
w ith ,
h e
ta lk e d
to
th e m
p o litic s
a n d
M r.
P a in e
w as
w ith
h im
a
fa ir
am ount
a n d
I
a m
n o t
s u re
th e y
ta lk e d
a b o u t
p o litic s .
A p p a re n tly
it
s h o u ld
h a ve
b e e n
\u201cI
a m
q u ite
s u re
th e y
ta lk e d
a b o u t
p o litic s .\u201d
B u t,
a t
a n y
ra te ,
th e
tra n s c rip t
d o e s
re a d ,
\u201cI
a m
n o t
s u re
th e y
ta lk e d
a b o u t
p o litic s .\u201d
3 9 9
T h e y
w e n t
to
m e e tin g s
o f
som e
k in d
to g e th e r.
I
d o n \u2019t
kn o w
w h a t
k in d
o f
m e e tin g s .
M r.
M C K E S Z IE .
D o
you
kn o w
w h e re
th e
m e e tin g s
w e re ?
M rs.
O S W A LD .
In
D a lla s .
A fte r
th e y
cam e
back
fro m
som e
m e e tin g ,
m y
husband
s a id
to
m e
s o m e th in g
about
W a lk e r
b e in g
a t
th is
m e e tin g .
D o
you
rem em ber
g o in g
a t
any
m e e tin g
w ith
Lee
O s w a ld
a t
w h ic h
M r.
W a lk e r
w as
p re s e n t?
M r.
P A IR \u2019E .
N o -th e
o n ly
m e e tin g
I
w e n t
to
w as
th e
A C LU
m e e tin g ,
th a t
I
re c a ll.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
D o
you
re c a ll
g o in g
to
any
m e e tin g
y o u rs e lf
in
O c to b e r
1963,
w ith
or
w ith o u t
O s w a ld ,
a t
w h ic h
G eneral
W a lk e r
w as
p re s e n t?
M r.
P A IN E .
G eneral
W a lk e r
w as
present
a t
th e -O s w a ld
m e n tio n e d
th e
U .S .-
U .S .
D ay
m e e tin g
h e ld
by
th e
rig h tis ts ,
w h ic h
o ccu rre d
a
day
or
tw o
or
tw o
n ig h ts
b e fo re
th e
A C LU
m e e tin g .
H e
had
been
to
th a t
by
h im s e lf.
I
had
gone
th a t
sam e
e v e n in g
to
a
John
B irc h
m e e tin g .
W e
w e re
n o t
to g e th e r,
b u t
th e y
w e re
tw o
th in g s
th a t
o ccu rre d
s im u lta n e o u s ly ,
and
th a t\u2019s
w h e re
Lee,
by
h is
re p o rt
a t
th e
A C LU
m e e tin g
s a id
he
w as
and
W a lk e r
w as
th e re .
M aybe
th a t\u2019s
w h a t
M a rin a
had
in
m in d .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
B ut
yo u ,
y o u rs e lf,
d o n \u2019t
have
any
re c o lle c tio n
o f
your
ever
b e in g
a t
a
m e e tin g
w hen
he
w as
th e re ?
M r.
P A IR E .
N o;
I
have
never
seen
G eneral
W a lk e r
th a t
I
can
re c a ll.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
Y ou
have
never
seen
W a lk e r?
M r.
P A IS E .
U n le s s
he
w a s -in
a
year
p re v io u s
to
th a t
I
had
been
to
th e
In d ig n a tio n
C o m m itte e
m e e tin g -n o -th a t
is
th e
a n sw e r
to
your
p re v io u s
q u e s tio n .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
D o -to
th e
b e st
o f
your
re c o lle c tio n ,
you
d o n \u2019t
ever
rem em ber
s e e in g
G eneral
W a lk e r
p re s e n t?
M r.
P A IN E .
T h a t\u2019s
rig h t.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
O r
h a v in g
been
a t
a
m e e tin g
a t
w h ic h
you
s u b s e q u e n tly
le a rn e d
th a t
he
w as
p re s e n t,
a lth o u g h
you
d id n \u2019t
see
h im ?
M r.
P A IN E .
T h a t\u2019s
rig h t-1
c a n \u2019t
rem em ber
about
th e
p re v io u s
ye a r,
b u t
I
d o n \u2019t
th in k
th a t
has
re le va n cy.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
W e ll,
s in c e
th e
tim e
you
m et
O s w a ld -y o u
w e re
a t
no
m e e tin g s
a t
w h ic h
G eneral
W a lk e r
w as
p re s e n t,
to
your
k n o w le d g e ?
M r.
P A IN E .
T h a t\u2019s
tru e .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
M a rin a
O s w a ld
g o e s
on
to
te s tify
and
I
w ill
re c a p itu la te
p a rt
o f
it,
\u201cA fte r
th e y
cam e
back
fro m
som e
m e e tin g ,
m y
husband
s a id
to
m e
som e-
th in g
about
W a lk e r
b e in g
a t
th is
m e e tin g
and
he
s a id ,
\u2018P a in e
kn o w s
th a t
I
sh o t
h im .\u2019
\u201d
D o
you
have
any
reason
to
b e lie v e
th a t-th e
firs t
q u e s tio n ,
o f
co u rse ,
is
and
I
have
a lre a d y
asked
you
th a t
and
you
te s tifie d
you
d id
n o t
kn o w
O s w a ld
sh o t
W a lk e r
p rio r
to
th e
a s s a s s in a tio n
o f
P re s id e n t
K ennedy;
is
th a t
c o rre c t?
M r.
P A IN E .
T h a t\u2019s
rig h t.
M r.
L IE B E L E X .
N ow ,
do
you
have
any
reason
to
b e lie v e
th a t
O s w a ld
m ig h t
have
th o u g h t
th a t
you
kn e w
th a t
h e ,
O s w a ld ,
had
sh o t
a t
G eneral
W a lk ,e r?
M r.
P A IN E .
I
c a n \u2019t
see
h o w
he
w o u ld
have
th o u g h t
I
kn e w
th a t.
I
ju s t
d o n \u2019t
see-he
m ig h t
have
s a id
s o m e th in g
th a t
re v e a le d
th a t
and
I
d id n \u2019t
c a tc h
h is
m e a n in g ,
so
it
never
sunk
in
to
m e
a t
a ll,
th a t
is ,
to
assum e
th a t
he
w a s n \u2019t
ly in g
and
th a t
is
th e
o n ly
w ay
I
can
e x p la in
it.
M r.
L IF X IE L F X .
S o
th a t
you
th in k
th a t
th is
te s tim o n y
th a t
M a rin a
has
g iv e n
is
e ith e r
th e
re s u lt
o f
a
m is a p p re h e n s io n ,
or
a
lie
on
O s w a ld \u2019s
p a rt
or
on
M a rin a \u2019s
p a rt?M r.
P A IN E .
Y e s .
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
A nd
you
d o n \u2019t
have
any
doubt
about
th a t
w h a tso e ve r?
M r.
P A IN E .
I
a m
p e rfe c tly
c e rta in
th a t
I
d id n \u2019t
kn o w
he
sh o t
a t
W a lk e r.
M r.
L IE B E L E R .
M a rin a
h e rs e lf
g o e s
on
to
sa y:
I
d o n \u2019t
kn o w
w h e th e r
th is
w as
th e
tru th
or
n o t,
I
d o n \u2019t
kn o w
w h e th e r
it
w as
tru e
or
n o t,
b u t
th is
is
w h a t
th e y
to ld
m e.
A nd
I
presum e
she
m eans
th a t\u2019s
w h a t
Lee
had
to ld
h e r.
M r.
P A IN E .
N ow ,
w a it-th is
is -it
w o u ld
be
w e ll
to
ch e ck
fo r
th a t
\u201cth e y \u201d-
th is
is
te s tim o n y
in
Ju n e ,
you
s a id ,
and
th a t
\u201cth e y \u201d
c o u ld
p o s s ib ly
be
M a rtin
440
of 00

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