NPR

Interviewwith
PresidentBarackObama

Interviewedby
SteveInskeep

Date:Wednesday,May28,2014

Transcriptby
FederalNewsService
Washington,D.C.

MR.INSKEEP:Iwanttobeginthisway.Yourehereatthishistoricplace,tryingtospeakwitha
senseofhistory.AndIwasthinkingofpastpresidentsthatIknowyouhavestudiedandcommented
on.Andacouplecametomindwhowereabletoexpresswhattheyweretryingtodointheworldin
aboutasentence.Reaganwantedtorollbackcommunismbywhatevermeans.Lincolnhasafamous
letterinwhichhesays,IwouldsavetheunionbytheshortestmeansundertheConstitution.Asyou
lookatthemomentofhistorythatyouoccupy,doyouthinkyoucanputintoasentencewhatyouare
tryingtoaccomplishintheworld?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:ImnotsureIcandoitinasentencebecausewerefortunateinmanyways.
Wedontfaceanexistentialcrisis.Wedontfaceacivilwar.WedontfaceaSovietUnionthatis
tryingtorallyablocofcountriesandthatcouldthreatenourwayoflife.Instead,whatwehaveis,asI
sayinthespeech,thismomentinwhichweareincrediblyfortunatetohaveastrongeconomythatis
gettingstronger,nomilitarypeerthatthreatensus,nonationstatethatanytimesoonintendstogotowar
withus.Butwehaveaworldorderthatischangingveryrapidlyandthatcangeneratediffusethreats,
allofwhichwehavetodealwith.

AndIthinkthatthemostimportantpointofthespeechtodayformeishowwedefineAmerican
leadershipinpartisthroughourmilitarymight,butonlyinpart,thatAmericanleadershipinthe
21
st
centuryisgoingtoinvolveourcapacitytobuildinternationalinstitutions,coalitionsthatcanact
effectively,andthepromotionofnorms,rules,laws,idealsandvaluesthatcreategreaterprosperityand
peace,notjustinourownborders,butoutsideaswell.

MR.INSKEEP:IsyoursentencethenpursuingU.S.interestsabroadwithoutgoingtowar?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,therearegoingtobetimeswherewemighthavetogotowar.And
thatswhyIthinkitsveryimportantforusnottogetintothesesimplisticwaysofthinkingaboutit,
eitherwepullbackentirelyandwereisolationist,oralternatively,everyproblemaroundtheworldis
ourstomanage.Rather,youknow,whatwehavetodoisclearlydefinewhereisitinournational
intereststousemilitaryforce,sometimesunilaterally.Andtypicallywhenwehavedirectinterests,core
interests,oursafety,oursecurity,ourlivelihoods,theprotectionofourallies,youknow,international
opinionmatters,butwemayhavetoactonourown.

Whenitcomestothekindsofissues,though,thatdominatetheheadlinesaconflictinSyria,aRussian
incursionintoUkraine,thekidnappingof200younggirlsinNigeriainthosecircumstances,weare
goingtobemosteffectivewhenweuseawiderangeoftoolsdiplomacy,sanctions,appealsto
internationallaw.Insomecases,ajudicioususeofmilitaryforcemaymakesense.Butinthose
circumstances,ithastobeinamultilateralsystemwhereothercountriesareparticipating,wearenot
goingalone,becausewhenwemakesurethatothercountriesareparticipating,thatmeansthatweve
doneourhomework,wevethoughtthroughtheconsequences,wevebuiltlegitimacy,andwerenot
carryingtheburdenentirelyonourown.

MR.INSKEEP:WhatshouldleaderslikeSyriasBasharalAssadorRussiasVladimirPutintake
awayfromthisspeech,inwhichyoudidspeakpassionatelyaboutnotgoingtowarunnecessarilyand
saidyouwerehauntedbythedeathsofAmericansoldiers?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,Ithinktheycantakeawayfromitthattheyhavetobeonguardwhen
theyactoutsideofinternationalnorms,thatwearegoingtopushaggressivelyagainstthem.Werenot
alwaysgoingtopushusingmilitaryactionsinitially.Theremaybecircumstancesinwhichwemobilizein
theinternationalcommunitytotakeinternationalaction.

ButasIspokeabout,whenyoulookateventsinUkraineoverthelasttwomonths,thereisnodoubt
thatourabilitytomobilizeinternationalopinionrapidlyhaschangedthebalanceandtheequationin
Ukraine.IjustspokeyesterdaytothenewlyelectedpresidentofUkraine.Mr.Putinhasjust
announcedthatheismovinghistroopsbackfromthebordersofUkraine.Andthatsanapplicationof
Americanleadershipthatissustainable,consistentandismostlikelytoproducethekindsofresultswe
want.

MR.INSKEEP:ItsinterestingaboutUkraine,though,Mr.President,becausealotofanalystshave
lookedatthatsituationandsaidthisisanareawherePutinmayhavehadaweakhand,buthegained.
HegainedCrimea.HeassertedhisinfluenceoverUkraine.

YouspeakofUkraine,though,asasuccess.Doyoufeelthatyouvebeensuccessfulinachievingyour
aims?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Youknow,IthinkitsamistaketothinkthatsomehowMr.Putinreflected
strengthinthissituation.UkraineisnotjustnextdoortoRussia.Ukraine,inthemindsofmost
Russians,hasbeenacentralpartofRussiafordecades,forcenturies.AndfromMr.Putins
perspective,hewasoperatingfromapositionofweakness.Hefeltasifhewasbeingfurtherand
furthersurroundedbyNATOmembers,folkswhoarelookingwesteconomically,fromasecurity
perspective.AndeveninUkraine,thecrownjeweloftheformerSovietsystem,outsideofRussia,a
oligarchythatwascorruptwasrejectedbypeopleonthestreets.Andsowhatyousawwasa
scrambling,areactiontopeopleintheUkrainesaying,wewantadifferentwayoflife.

ThefactthatCrimea,whichhistoricallyisdominatedbynativeRussiansandRussianspeakers,was
annexedillegallydoesnotinanywaynegatethefactthatthewayoflife,thesystemsofeconomic
organization,thenotionsofruleoflaw,thosevaluesthatweholddear,areascendant,andyouknow,
theothersideisgoingtobeonthedefense.

ThatdoesntmeanthatwethinkthatUkraineshouldnthaveagoodrelationshipwithRussia.Wethink
itshould.AndIhavesaiddirectlytoMr.Putinwewant,ultimately,Ukrainianstomakeadecision
abouttheirownfutures,andthat,Iassume,willincludestrongrelationswithRussiaaswellaswith
Europe.

MR.INSKEEP:YouregoingtomakeRussiagiveCrimeaback.Doyouhavetheabilityorthe
leveragetodothat?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,youknow,Ithinkweregoingtohavetoseehowitplaysitselfout.Im
goingtoseeMr.Poroshenko,thenewlyelectedpresidentofCrimeaornewlyelectedpresidentof
Ukraine,nextweek,andImsurethatllbeatopicofdiscussion.

MR.INSKEEP:LetmeaskaboutSyria,Mr.President.WhiteHouseofficialshavesaidthatyouare
reviewingthepossibilityofmilitarytrainingforSyrianrebels.Therehasbeen,itssaid,limitedtraining
byintelligenceagenciesuptonow.

Thisseemstofitwithsomethingyoudescribedinyourspeechwhenyoutalkedabouta$5billion
counterterrorismfund,whichwouldaffectplacesincludingSyria.Idliketounderstandwhatyouthink
haschangedinSyriawhat,ifanything,isdifferentaboutthesituationinSyria,asopposedtoacouple
ofyearsago,whensomeofyouradviserswantedlargerscaletrainingoftherebels,andIbelieveyou
declined.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,Ithinkthatsnotanaccurateportrayalofeitherwhatwehavedoneor
whatthedebatesbeenabout.

MR.INSKEEP:OK.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:TheissuehasalwaysbeeninSyriahowdowemosteffectivelysupporta
moderateopposition,recognizingthattherearegoingtobelimitstohowrapidlywecanrampupthe
capacityofthatopposition.Andwhatwedontwanttodoissetfolksupforfailure.Whatwedont
wanttodoismakepromisesthatwecannotkeep.

Icantspeaktoalltheworkthathasbeendonewithrespecttoboththepoliticaloppositionaswellas
thearmedoppositionthatarefightingagainstMr.Assad,butIthinkitsbeenstatedpubliclywehave
beensupportingthem.

Ultimately,IdidnotthinkthenandIstilldonotbelievethatAmericanmilitaryactionscanresolvewhat
isincreasinglyasectariancivilwar,andIalsobelievethat,ultimately,theonlywayyouregoingtogeta
resolutionthatworksfortheSyrianpeopleandtheregionisgoingtoisgoingtorequiresomesortof
politicalaccommodationbetweenthevariousgroupsthere.

ButwhatwecandoistoworkwiththeneighborsintheregionJordan,Turkey,theGulfstates,
LebanontodealwiththerefugeeflowsthatarecomingoutofSyria,todealwiththehumanitarian
crisisthatexiststhereandtobuildontheframework,theprogressthatwehavemadeoverthelast
coupleofyears.WeveseensomesuccessintheSyrianoppositiongainingmorecapacity,gaining
moretraining,gainingmoreeffectiveness,andbuildingonsomeofthatsuccess,itisconceivablethatin
combinationwiththeotherworkthatisdoneonthediplomaticfront,thatwereabletotipwhat
happensinSyriasothatitsmorelikelythatwecanarriveatapoliticalresolution.

MR.INSKEEP:Areconditionsbetternow,then,foramorerobustaidingoftherebelsandtrainingof
therebelsthaninthepast?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,Iwouldntsaytheconditionsarebetter.Ithink,inmanyways,the
conditionsareworse.Butthecapacityofsomeoftheoppositionisbetterthanitwasbefore,whichis
understandable.

Thinkthinkaboutwhothisoppositionis.Themoderateopposition,asopposedtothejihadiststhat
haveseenthechaosthereasanopportunitytogainafoothold,thosearehardenedfighters.Whenyou
talkaboutthemoderateopposition,manyofthesepeoplewerefarmersordentistsormaybesome
radioreporterswhodidnthavealotofexperiencefighting.Whattheyunderstoodwas,isthattheyhad
agovernmentthatwaskillingitsownpeopleandviolatinghumanrightsin,inthemostprofoundway,
andtheywantedtodosomethingaboutit.

Butcreatingacapacityforthemtoholdground,tobeabletorebuffviciousattacks,forthemtobeable
toalsoorganizethemselvesinwaysthatarecohesive,allthattakes,unfortunately,moretimethanIthink
manypeoplewouldlike.

MR.INSKEEP:IwanttoaskaboutChina,Mr.PresidentEastAsiamorebroadly.Yourecently
visitedthere.YouworkedtoreassureU.S.alliesintheregion.Itsunderstood,ofcourse,theU.S.has
specificcommitmentsforexample,todefendJapan

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Right.

MR.INSKEEP:whenJapanattacked.IdliketoknowifyouhavealargerobjectiveinEastAsia.
DoestheUnitedStateshaveaninterestbeyonditsspecificalliancesinpreventingChinafrom
dominatingEastAsiaandthewatersaroundEastAsia,whereChinasbeenmakingsomeaggressive
moves?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,wedonothaveaninterestinstoppingChinafrombecomingsuccessful.
ChinaisthemostpopulouscountryonEarth,atsome

MR.INSKEEP:ButImaskingtheirpower,nottheirsuccess.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:No,Iwell,Iunderstand.Butatsomelevel,theyregoingtobeabigdogin
thatneighborhood,andwewelcomeChinaspeacefulrise.Inmanyways,itwouldbeabiggernational
securityproblemforusifChinastartedfallingapartattheseams.SowewewanttheChinesepeople
tosteadilyhaveahigherstandardofliving,wewantChinatohaveincreasedcapacitytoparticipatein
internationaleffortsaroundissueslikeclimatechange.

WehaveaveryspecificconcernwhenChinaisnotfollowingbasicinternationalnorms,basicrulesof
theroad,whereitdoesnotfeelboundbythekindofinternationalpracticesthathavehelpedto
underwriteChinasrise.Imean,partofthereasonChinasbeensuccessfulistheresbeenrelative
peaceinAsia,therehasbeenfreedomofcommerceinAsia,freedomofnavigationinAsia.Allthat
facilitatesthetradethatiscreatinggreatwealthinsideofChina.Well,ifinfactthatinternationalorder
hasbenefitedChina,thenweexpectChinatohelpupholdtheveryrulesthathavemadethem
successful,nottakeadvantageofthem.

Andsotherearebasicprinciplesthatbigcountriesdontjustpushlittlecountriesaroundbyvirtueof
size.Therearemechanismswhereby,throughinternationallaw,maritimedisputescanberesolved.
Andwhatwehavedonethenisworkedwiththecountriesoftheregiontosayletscreateacodeof
conductthatinwhich,withouttakinganypositiononwhetherthisparticularrockinthemiddleofthe
waterbelongstothispartyorthatparty,letsfindasystematic,legalwayforustoresolvethese
disputeswithoutresolvingtoconflict.

AndsotojustthebottomlinehereisChinaisgoingtobeadominantpowerinAsia,nottheonlyone,
butbyvirtueofitssizeanditswealth,itisgoingtobeagreatpowerinAsia.Werespectthat.And
werenotinterestedincontainingitbecauseweareinanywayintimidatedbyChinawereconcerned
aboutitbecausewedontwanttoseeconstantconflictsdevelopinginavitalregionoftheworldthat
also,youknow,wedependonintermsofoureconomybeingsuccessfulyouknow,thosearealotof
marketsoutthere,wesellalotofgoodsoutthere,and,youknow,wedontwanttoseethese
conflagrationsthatcanendupimpeding,youknow,ourowninterests.

MR.INSKEEP:Soundslikeyouwanttoavoidtripwireoveranyparticularrockintheocean,asyou
said.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,youknow,Ithink,morethanthat,whatwealsowantistobeableto
strengthenandconstantlyreinforceinternationalnormsbecausewebelieve,Ibelieve,thatAmerica
benefitswhenthosenormsarenotonlybeingupheldbyusindividuallybutwhereallcountriesbuyin,
wherethereisasensethatallofusbenefitfromsomebasicrulesoftheroad.AndChinanowasa
risingpowerneedstobepartofthatresponsibilityofmaintainingrulesthatmaintainpeaceandsecurity
foralotofcountries.

MR.INSKEEP:Youvemadesomestatementsrecently,Mr.President,thatitseemsyouvebeen
tryingtoputyourselfinahistoricalcontext,ifyoucan.Youvetalkedabouthittingsinglesanddoubles
onforeignpolicy.Youtalkedabouthandingabatonfromonepresidentoronepersoninhistoryto
another.Iwonderifyoureatapointinyoursecondtermwhereeventhoughthereiswellovertwo
yearstogo,thatyouhavetothinkaboutnarrowingpossibilitiesandamorelimitedlistofthingsthatyou
canrealisticallyaccomplishinthetimeyouhaveleft.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,Ithinkthatsalwaysbeenthecase.Thatwasthecasethefirstdayin
theOvalOffice.Youknow,youdontwalkintothepresidencyandcompletelyremaketheworldand
ignorehistoryandignoretheproblemsthatarealreadysittingthereintheinbox.Soyouhavetomake
choicesaboutwhatsimportantandwhatsnot.

Itsinteresting,though,youknow,thecommentImadeaboutsinglesanddoublesIthinkisisonlya
partialquote.WhatIsaidwasthatwhenitcomestoforeignpolicy,thatoftentimestheUnitedStates
hasmademistakesnotbyshowingtoomuchrestraintbutbyunderestimatinghowchallengingthe
environmentisoutthere,notthinkingthroughconsequences,thatthereisalotofblockingandtackling
toforeignpolicy,tochangesportsmetaphors,or,ifyouwanttosticktobaseball,thatalotofwhatyou
wanttodoistoadvancetheballonhumanrights,advancetheballonnationalsecurity,advancetheball
onenergyindependence,toputtheballinplay.

Andeveryonceinawhile,apitchisgoingtocomerightoverhomeplatethatyoucanknockoutfora
homerun.Butyoudontswingateverypitch.Andwehaveopportunitiesrightnow,forexample,and
Italkedabouttoday,toadvanceaIranianagreementontheirnuclearprogramthatcouldbehistoric.
Wemaynotgetit,buttheresachancethatitcouldstillhappen.Ihavenotyetgivenuponthe
possibilitythatbothIsraelisandPalestinianscanseetheirselfinterestinapeacedealthatwouldprovide
IsraelsecuritythatsrecognizedbyitsneighborsandmakesurethatPalestinianshaveastateoftheir
own.

Sotherearegoingtocontinuetobeopportunitiesthatcomeup.Andwhatwewanttodoismakesure
wereinapositiontoseizethoseopportunitieswhentheyarise.Butinthemeantime,theworkthatwe
dotohelpcountriesinNorthAfricasecuretheirbordersandrootoutterrorism,theworkthatwedoto,
youknow,makesurethatwehavehigherstandardsforlaborprotectionandenvironmentalprotection
whenitcomestotradeinAsia,theworkthatwedoinmakingsurethatyoungpeopleinLatinAmerica
arecomingtotheUnitedStatestostudythroughexchangeprogramssothatandthatU.S.students
areabletogotothosecountriestodevelopthecommercialtiesandculturaltiesintheWestern
Hemisphere,youknow,thatstuffsnotsexy.Itsnotgoingtobeonthefrontpageofthenewspapers.
Butinmanyways,thatswhatsgoingtoultimatelybemosteffective,thatsgoingtobewhatsgoingto
mostdeterminewhetherornottheUnitedStatesretainsitsprimacyanditsleadershipontheworld
stageinthe21
st
century.

MR.INSKEEP:Letmeaskaboutoneballyouvetriedtoadvanceyourentireterm.Youwantedto
closeGuantanamoinyourfirstyear.Aboutayearagoyougaveaspeechinwhichyousaidyou
wantedtocloseGuantanamo.YoureferredtoitagaininthisspeechhereatWestPoint.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Justchippingawayatit.

MR.INSKEEP:IntheyearsinceyourlastspeechinwhichyousaidyouwantedtocloseGuantanamo,
itsourunderstandingthatonly12about12prisonershavebeensentbacktotheirhomecountries,
repatriated.Thevastmajorityarestillthere.Hasthatproblemprovedtobesodifficulttheresagood
chanceyoumayhandGuantanamooveryoursuccessor?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:NotifIcanhelpit.IthinkitisveryimportantforustocloseGuantanamo.I
thinkitisveryimportantasweendthewarthatoriginallygavegavelifetoGuantanamothatwenow
winditdown.

MR.INSKEEP:Couldyounotsendmoreprisonersbacknow?Isthatnotpossible?

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,theyouknow,Congresshasplacedsomerestraintsonus.And

MR.INSKEEP:Buttheyveloosenedthoserestraints.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Well,Iunderstand.AndIpromiseyouthatwereusingeverypossible
availableavenue.Insomecases,itshardtoreturnprisonersbecausethecountrieswheretheycome
fromdontwantthemorcantprovideusassurancesthattheycancontrolthem.Itisahardproblem.
Itsatoughlegalproblem.Itsatoughsecurityproblem.

ButwhatIknowisthatwecannotingoodconsciencemaintainasystemofindefinitedetentioninwhich
individualswhohavenotbeentriedandconvictedareheldpermanentlyinthislegallimbooutsideofthis
country.ThatiscontrarytoU.S.traditions.Itfeedsterroristpropaganda.Itisnotultimatelygoingto
beeffectivewhenitcomestodealingwiththelongtermterroristthreat.Itmakesitharderforustoget
cooperationfromourpartners.

Anditiswildlyexpensive.Imean,wespend10,15timesmore,inmanycases,fortheseprisonersthan
wewoulddoinanormalsupermaxsystprisoninourfederalsystem.Soforallkindsofreasons,it
doesntmakesense.

AndImgoingtokeeponpushingbecauseIwanttomakesurethatwhenIturnthekeysovertothe
nextpresident,thattheyhavetheability,thatheorshehasthecapacitytotomakesomedecisions
witharelativelycleanslate.ClosingGuantanamoisone.Makingsurethatwehavetherightlegal
architectureforhowweconductcounterterrorismandthattheresgreatertransparency,asIdiscussed
today,thatsanother.Makingsurethatpeoplehaveasensethatwhenweusedrones,wedoso
lawfullyinawaythatavoidsciviliancasualtiesandinwaysthatareappropriate.Makingsurethatour
nationalsecurityapparatusishas,youknow,enoughlegalchecksandbalancesthatordinaryfolks,
notjusthereintheUnitedStatesbutaroundtheworld,canfeelassuredthattheirprivacyisbeing
respected.

Youknow,theseareallpartsofwhatIconsideraamajorpieceofbusinessduringmypresidency,
whichisrecognizingwevegotveryrealthreatsoutthereandwecantbenaveaboutprotecting
ourselvesfromthosethreats.Attimesweregoingtohavetotakeverytoughactionstomakesurethat
ourpeople,ourchildrenareprotected,butthattheresawayofdoingitthatcomportswithourlaws,
ourvalues,ourideals,thatgainslegitimacyaroundtheworldandthatisthereforesustainable.

And,youknow,werenotdoneyet,butwevemadeenormousprogress,inthesamewaythatweve
reducedthenumberofpeopleinGuantanamobyhalf,inthesamewaythatwerestartingtoconstrain
someoftheotherworkthatwevedoneinthisarea.ImconfidentthatbythetimeImleavingthe
presidency,thenextpresidentwillstillhavesometoughchoicestomake,butIthinktheyllhaveabasis
formakingthemthatisconsistentwithourbesttraditions.

MR.INSKEEP:Mr.President,thanksverymuch.

PRESIDENTOBAMA:Ienjoyedit.Thankyou.

(END)