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-S ~ C R E I
E v e n t:
In te rv ie w
o f F B I S p e c ia l
A gent
L an ce
K uhn
T y p e
o fe v e n t: In te rv ie w
D ates:Jan u ary
5, 2004
Special A ccess Issues:N one
P rep ared
b y :
H yon
K im
T eam
N um ber:
lA
L o c a tio n :
F B I, P h o e n ix
F ie ld
O ffice
P a rtic ip a n ts
- N o n -C o m m issio n :
FBI, A ssistant
G eneral
C ounsel
S ean
O 'N e ill
P a rtic ip a n ts
- C om m ission:
R ajesh
D e , M ic h a e l
Jaco b so n ,
H yon
K im
S A
K uhn
was the case
ag en t
for the Lotti R aissi
c a se
a n d fo r th e H a m u d
H am dan
a l-
S u la m i
c a se .
S A
K uhn
is a defendant
in the civil case
file d
b y L o tti
R aissi.
~ S A
K uhn
d isc u sse d
th e m a n y
reaso n s
for suspicion
of L otti R aissi.
T h ere
w ere
num erous
in d iv id u a ls
b o th
at Saw yer
A v ia tio n
an d
in th e re le v a n t
apartm ent
c o m p le x e s
w ho
sa id
that Raissi
was an associate
o f H a n i H a n jo u r.
T h ey
m ay
h av e
carp o o led
to g e th e r
a t A riz o n a
A v ia tio n .
R ecords
in d ic a te
that on M arch
8, 1998, Raissi
an d
H a n jo u r
sig n ed
up for the sam e
p la n e
o n e a fte r th e o th e r.
<%T h ere
is e v id e n c e
that Raissi,
H a n i H a n jo u r,
F a isa l
al-S alm i
and Rayed
A b d u lla h
sig n ed
up to use the
sim u lato r
at Saw yer
A v ia tio n
in the sum m er
o f2 0 0 1 .
T h e c o m p u te r
reco rd s
sh o w
th a t H a n jo u r
w as
en tered
in to
the system
on June
23, 2001
fo r a o n e -m o n th
m em bership.
A fter
b e c o m in g
a m em ber,
it w o u ld
not have
b een
n e c e ssa ry
fo r H a n jo u r
to
h av e
sig n ed
a record
o r lo g b o o k
w hen
h e a c tu a lly
u se d
the sim ulator.
\u00a2
A n e m p lo y e e
at Saw yer,
T in a
A rn o ld ,
re c a lls
fo u r in d iv id u a ls
u s in g
th e s im u la to r
d u rin g
this tim e
p e rio d :
R aissi,
ai-S alm i,
A b d u lla h ,
an d
a fourth
in d iv id u a l.
A rn o ld
p ic k e d
th e p h o to
o f H a n jo u r
a s th e fo u rth
in d iv id u a l
but w as not
1 0 0 %
su re .
~
S A
K uhn
a lso
p o in te d
o u t th e s ta te m e n ts
on
Iw ho
re c a lle d
se e in g
H a n jo u r
d u rin g
this tim e
p e rio d ,
a s w e ll a s th e ' te s tim o n y
o il
Ith e o w n e r
o f th e fu rn itu re
s to re
w ho
re c a lle d
se e in g
F a isa l
ai-S alm i
w ith H a n jo u r
d u rin g
th e
sum m er
o f2 0 0 1 .
!
/
~
Lotti Raissi
en tered
th e
U .S . in N o v e m b e r
of 1996 and
~ ~ ri
in A p ril o f2 0 0 0 .
D u rin g
this tim e
p e rio d
h e d id
m ake
a few
trip s to E u ro p e .
He returned
to the U .S. in June
o f
2 0 0 1 .
'
,
S 8 G R E '- '
9 / 1 1
P e r s o n a l
P r i v a c y
\u2022\u2022
\u2022
' 9 / 1 1
P e r s o n a l
P r i v a c y
\ \\ \< :J t)S A
K uhn
fin d s
it very
su sp icio u s
that Raissi
h ad
rip p e d
o u t th e p a g e s
o f h is lo g b o o k
\~
\.
'for the sum m er
2 0 0 1
tim e
p e rio d .
S A
K uhn
h a s e x a m in e d
th e a c tu a l
lo g b o o k
a n d it
:\
\.
ap p ~ ars
th a t th e p a g e s
w ere
v ery
c a re fu lly
rip p e d
o u t.
S A
K uhn
a lso
n o te d
th e re p o rt
\'"
\. fro 'n ~ " 'F o u rF o rc e s
A v ia tio n
in th e U .K . w h e re
R aissi
w a s tra in in g .
T he
re p o rt
in d ic a te d
\\
....
th a t h l)u n e
of 2000, Raissi
a sk e d
if a plane
flie s
in to
a b u ild in g
w h e th e r
it is the
\\
~ sp o ~ 'lQ ility
o f th e a irlin e
o rth e p ilo t.
T he
F o u r
F o rces
A v ia tio n
so u rce
a lso
re p o rte d
~
t~ .:
R a ls~ ::..
~ .a d m a d e
a com m ent
a lo n g
th e lin e s o f " A m e ric a
w ill get theirs."
\\
{sO "$A K uhn'briefly
reco u n ted
R aissi's
past history
su c h
a s th e
1993 theft arrest
in the
\\ U.i<. ..\u00b7\u00b7
..
u n d e r th ~ '.n a m e V in c e n t
A lg iers
a n d th e in c id e n t
w ith
the Italian
a u th o ritie s
in 1 9 9 6 .
\\W ith
re g a rd
to t
>
.
Ithe Italia~
d ip lo m ~ t
w ith
ties to R aissi,
.it a p p e a rs
th a t
'\
"~nd R alssl"s{am tly
m em bers
a re In v o lv e d
In
a fra u d u le n t
docum ent
schem e.
it>S A
r< \lh na lso
m e ~ t.io n e d
th e re p o rt
that an article
fo u n d
in a n a l-Q a 'id a
h o u se
in
A { g h a n is ta .~
had Raissi;\u00b7s...
~am e
c irc le d .
.
R ~ S ~ 'sa~ ~ ~ ~ sin c lu d~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~
an "
....
,
T he
first set ofcharges
ag ain st
R aissi
w ere
b a se d
on his false
s ta te m e n ts
to th e F A A .
T he
seco n d
set of charges
w ere
m ore
serio u s
a ris in g
fro m
R aissi' s role
in R e d o u a n e
D a h m a n i's
fa lse
asy lu m
a p p lic a tio n .
The charges
w ere
n ev er
p resen ted
to the B ritish.
S A
K uhn
b e lie v e s th a t
th e e x p e c ta tio n s
w ere
set too
h ig h
so that the B ritish
c o u rts
w ere
e x p e c tin g
a m U rd e r\u00b7\u00b7\u00b7~ ~ a rg e .
S A
K uhn
fin d s
it verY ...
su sp icio u s
th a t F a is a l
ai-S alm i
k e p t h is flig h t tra in in g
a secret.
H is
e x p la n a tio n
w a s th a t h c....
w a n te d
to a v o id
em barrassm ent
s h o u ld
he fail.
~ ~ a ~ lIblllll :lie y e s
tb a t tti~ ~
w illb l
b i'\u00a5 C b e e n
"< m iters"
fU t r-Q a'id a
in th e P h o e n ix
~
S A
K uhn
c la rifie d
the paragraph
in m a n y
o f th e P h o e n ix
d o c u m e n ts
re g a rd in g
th e
S au d i
g a th e rin g s
inP h o e n ix ."....
T h ere
is n o re p o rtin g
th a t N a w a f
aJ-H azm i
and Hani
H a n jo u rw ere
a t th e g a th e rin g s
. .b i l l w e W b e t ~ f l f : t J e
Saudi group
m et al-H azm i
an d
H a n jo u r.
A n
in d iv id u a l
nam edl
_ a d m itte d
that he used
to see al-Hazm i
a t
t,e
A SU
lib ra ry .
J!JT he
m e e tin g s
h e ld
by Fouzan
in Tucson
w ere
se p a ra te
fro m
a l- T h u k a ir's
m e e tin g s
in
/T e m p e .
S h ath eJe
was the successor
to T h u k a ir.
/ % The
S a u d i c lu b
in Tucson
was funded
b y th e S a u d i
g o v e rn m e n t.
A l- T h u k a ir's
/
m e e tin g s
w ere
p a id
fo r b y its m e m b e rsh ip .
T he
S au d i
governm ent
fu n d s
o n e c lu b
fo r th e
.I
e n tire
s ta te .
9 / 1 1
L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t
S e n s i t i v e
S g C R E :p '
2
.-B E C R E 'I'"
.........% >S A \u00b7K u ~ .w as
fam iliar
w ith
th e re p o rtin g
th a t a l-S h a la w i
w as
in th e tra in in g
cam ps
in
-.\u00b7...I.~ .te2 0 0 0 ,
b u td id n o t
h av e
s p e c ific
in fo rm a tio n
o n th e d a te s .
A l-S u lam i
en tered
th eU S \u00b7in .l9 9 5
to a tte n d
the U niversity
of M issouri
in K ansas
C ity .
He entered
A SU
in
1 9 9 7to o b ta in .a
P h .D .
in m a th e m a tic s .
A l-S u lam i
k n ew
H a n jo u r
an d
al-H azrn i.fro m
th e IC C .
A l-S u la rn i
\u00b7w a s .i~ } s O c lo s e
to a l-S h a la w i.
\..... \u00a2 T h ere
a re flv e
p h o n e
num bers
i n t h e P h o e ~ \u00b7 i > " a r - e ~- ;
that w ere
in to u c h
w ith
S h e ik
A I-
\..A w an. the soiritual
ad v iso r
to Abu
Z u b ay d ah .
T h ey
a ie l
1
IA n o th e r
p h o n e
num ber
th a tw. . a -s"""ll!"!"in k """!"""e """ld !""!i-s"'!"io -c -a -te """ld ,..a -t"""lth ,..e --
.....
Q uadrangles
apartm ent
c o m p le x ,
w here
R ayed
A b d u lla h
liv e d .
The phone
calls from
th e
fiv e
num bers
w ere
in early
2 0 0 2 .
T h ere
w ere
o th e r
U S
num bers
in to u c h
w ith
the A I-
A w an
num ber.
'.
9 / 1 1
P e r s o n a l
P r i v a c y
\u2022
\u2022
!85S A
K uhn
n o te d
th a t a l-S h ~ rb ~ h a d
a sk e d
h is in te rro g a to rs
if al-Sulam i
had been
a rre ste d .
. -.
S A
K uhn
d isc u sse d
R ayed
A b d u lla h ,
w ho
c o n ta c te d
th e F B I a fte r 9 1 1 1 .
A b d u lla h
w as
w e ll-re s p e c te d
at the IC C , m ainly
for m em orizing
th e K o ra n .
T h ere
is n o in d ic a tio n
th a t
A b d u lla h
h a d a tte n d e d
the cam ps.
'.
.xs)S A
K uhn
w a s fa m ilia r
w ith
th e re p o rtin g
fr~ riJ
Ithat there
was a
3 6 -y ear
o ld Y e m e n i
p ilo t in P h o e n ix
w ho
w a s s u p p o ~ .e d to h a v e
p a rtic ip a te d
in9 1 1 1 .
R ayed
A b d u lla h
w a s to o y o u n g
fo r th e d e sc rip tio n ,
but
Isa p o ssib ility .
S A
K uhn
sent a lead to Buffalo
seek in g
m ore
in fo rm a tio n ,
but he has
not received
a
resp o n se.
S A
K uhn
ag reed
to p ro v id e
his EC
w ith
the lead to B uffalo.
S A
K uhn
a lso
h as
a recent
draft LH M
on the Raissi
case, which
(he FB I w ill w ork
o n p ro v id in g
to the
C om m ission.
/
O n
W ednesday,
Jan u ary
7, SA
K uhn
ask ed -to
sp e a k
to C o m m issio n
sta ff.
H e w a n te d
to
u rg e
c a u tio n
that in the w riting
o f th e C o m m is s io n 's
report w e do not reveal
in fo rm a tio n
th a t c o u ld
in fo rm
the terrorists
on how
to im p ro v e
th e ir lik e lih o o d
of success
in a n o th e r
9 /1 1ty p e
attaCk.//
9 / 1 1
L a w
E n f o r c e m e n t
S e n s i t i v e
3
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MFR NARA- T6- FBI- Kuhn Lance- 10-23-03- 00420
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