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E v e n t;
B arbara M cN am ara, N SA , SU SL O L2 0 0 -2 0 0 3 ;
D e p u ty D ire c to r1 9 9 7 -2 0 0 0 ;
0 0 0
1 9 9 4 -
1 9 9 7 .
"""
T y p e o f E v e n t:)~ te rv ie w
D a te : D e c e m b e r
I S ," 2 Q ,0 3
Special A ccess Issues: N one
Prepared by: Gordon Lederm an ""'"
Team Num ber:2
L o c a tio n : C o m m is s io n 's
K
S treet O ffice
P a rtic ip a n ts - n o n -C o m m is s io n : B a rb a ra M c N a m ~ ~ g lr..
--I tN S A -O G C )
P a rtic ip a n ts - C o m m is s io n : K e v in S c h e id (fo r ~
h o u r), C o l. L o rry F e n n e r, G o rd o n L e d e rm a n
B A C K G R O U N D
(U ) S h e re c a lls b e in g th e la s t o r n e a r-la s t p e rs o n w h o w a s in te rv ie w e d b y th e J o in t I n q u iry s ta ff, a n d it w a s a m a tte r o f c o n v e n ie n c e th a t s h e w a s a v a ila b le d u e to h e r h a v in g tra v e le d b a c k to th e U .S . fro m
B rita in .
The JI cut the interview short and asked her only three questions: about her
v ie w o f th e D e l's
a u th o ritie s , F I S A , a n d th e D C I 's d e c la ra tio n o f w a r. S h e th o u g h t th a t s h e w a s
b la m e d b y S e n a to r S h e lb y 's
ad d en d u m
for not advocating change because she did not
a d v o c a te a m e n d in g F I S A to a llo w m o re s u rv e illa n c e o f U .S . c itiz e n s .
..,S h e
s p e n t 4 0 y e a rs a t N S A a n d w a s in itia lly tra in e d a s a lin g u is t/a n a ly s t in C h in e s e .
H er
T trs'i']o b
as an N SA
"senior" w as D eputy C hief of M E N A .
S h e w a s c h ie f o f s ta ff o f th e
o p e ra tio n s d ire c to ra te a n d a ls o N S A 's
re p re s e n ta tiv e to0 0 0 .
She also served as the N SA
E x e c u tiv e D ire c to r.
T h e m a jo rity o f h e r e x p e rie n c e h a s b e e n in th e o p e ra tio n s d ire c to ra te (~ O ).
r-lS h e
to o k o v e r a s D D O
in 1 9 9 4 .
w a s e n o u g h a fte r th e C o ld W a r e n d e d th a t s h e lo o k e d a t
~ e
D O w a s p o stu re d g iv e n th e c h a n g e in th e w o rld . T h e U S G 's d riv in g fo c u s d u rin g th e
C old W ar w as the U SSR , both for resources and operations.
W ith the end of the C old W ar, she
lo o k e d a t th e D O to s e e if it w a s p o s tu re d fo r n e w re q u ire m e n ts , a n d s h e c o n c lu d e d it w a s n o t.
She reorganized
to create a group that put analysis and resources against geographic targets and a
g ro u p fo r tra n sn a tio n a l ta rg e ts.
S h e stru c tu re d th e tra n sn a tio n a l g ro u p to m irro r th e C I A 's
c e n te r~ ,~
~ in order to forge a relationship to allow N SA to serve the policy
a p ~ ,~ a tu s b e tte r o n tra n s n a tio n a l is s u e s .
" ,," D T ra n s n a tio n a l
issues are different analytically from
tra d itio n a l is s u e s . N S A n e e d e d to a p p ly
•
.:
m oreresources
but did not have sufficient resources - there w aso n ly a finite group of people
. //
w h o c o u ld b e m o v e d . N S A
lo o k e d a t tra n s n a tio n a l is s u e s th ro u g h th e o p tic o f in te rn a tio n a l
c o m m u n ic a tio n s
an d
a lso
th ro u g h
th e o p tic
of specific
n a tio n s '
c o m m u n ic a tio n s .
W ith
th e stro k e
of a pen, you
c a n
c re a te
a new
o rg a n iz a tio n ,
b u t it ta k e s
tim e fo r th e o rg a n iz a tio n
to d e v e lo p
its
p erso n a.
Over her three
y ears
and since
th e n N S A 's
stru c tu re
has matured,
ev en
th o u g h
th e
s p e c ific
'b o x o lo g y '
has changed
(th e A & P
shops have
m a tu re d
in to
p ro d u ct
lines of SID ).
S h e
m ay
not have
a d d re sse d
ev ery
issue, but she tried
to do so.
R e g a rd in g
the centers,
she always
th o u g h t
th a t th e y
w ere
D C I centers,
b u t th e y
are not D CI centers
in that som e
are in the C IA ID I
an d
som e
in the C IA ID O
- and
she could
never discern
w hy
som e
cen ters
w ere
in o n e d ire c to ra te
an d
som e
in a n o th e r.
S h e is n o t s u re in w h a t d ire c to ra te s
th e y
a re lo c a te d
now; but she knew
C T C
w a s a lw a y s
u n d er
D O .
N SA
a lw a y s
h a d p e o p le
in th e c e n te rs .
W here
th e c e n te rs
w ere.
lo c a te d
inC IA
d id
n o t m a tte r.
n
The IC
d id
n o t d e v e lo p
e ffe c tiv e
p ro c e sse s
fo r h o w
to ta k e a d v a n ta g e
o f th e in fo rm a tio n
th a t
~
ICd id h a v e
an d
m axim ize
it fo r a g lo b a l
in te llig e n c e
c a p a b ility .
D She
th o u g h t
that the reason
s h e w a s p a in te d
as an enem y
of change
b y th e S h e lb y
A ddendum
is that she did
not support
ch an g es
in the
law .
T o d ay ,
a U .S . p e r s o n
c a n b e ta rg e te d
b a se d
on sufficient
c a u se
w ith
a w arrant.
N SA
d o es
fo re ig n
s u rv e illa n c e '
~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~_ ~ ,
B u tn o th in g in g o v ~ ~ e n t'e v e r
w o rk s
p e rfe c tly .
T e rro rism
ag ain st
th e U .S . d o m e s tic a lly
is new ; terrorism
ag ain st
th e U .S . a ro u n d
th e w o rld
is n o t n e w
an d
d a te s
b ack
to th e B e iru t b a rra c k s
b o m b in g .
T h e q u e s tio n s
a lw a y s
a sk e d
o f th e l'C
in every
c a se
are: w hat did
y o u
know ,
w hen
d id y o u
k n o w
it, and
w h a t d id
y o u
do w ith
th e
in fo rm a tio n
y o u
h ad
to allow
som eone
to ta k e a c tio n .
C T
w a s a " h ig h
p rio rity ."
arts of the C T
m ission
w ere
d o n e
I n a tra n s n a tio n a lly -o rie n te d
g ro u p
b ecau se
T he
tra n s n a tio n a l
g ro u p
w as on parW it
t
e
g e o g ra p h ic a lly -o rie n te d
g ro u p ;
th e y
got resources,
h ad
ta s k in g
a u th o rity ,
e tc .
T h ey
w ere
a n
eq u al
c o m p e tito r
for tim e
an d
a tte n tio n .
She never
sa w
any m em orandum
fro m
th eD C I th a t d e c la re d
w a r o n a n y th in g .
T heJI
I n te rv ie w
w as
th e
first tim e
she ever heard
a b o u t it.
H ow ever,
she knew
th a t C T
w a s a to p
p rio rity
- there
w o u ld
bea m e e tin g
a t th e
W hite
H ouse
b ecau se
s o m e th in g
had gone wrong, and
afterw ard
Tenet would
call D IR N SA
(and others) to let the
lead ersh i
know
th a t th e
W hite
H ouse
c a re d
ab o u t
C T .
N SA
was already
d o in g
w h a tit c o u ld .
2
th e re
w ere
lo ts o f p h o n e
c a lls
in th eIe a b o u t
w hat w ent
w ro n g .
is n o t
u n u su al
fo r R F ls
(in te llig e n c e
requirem ents)
to g e n e ra te
fro m
th e
a b o v e -th e -fo ld
s to ry
in the
A s0 0 0 , s h e w o u ld
lo o k a t th e
(n o w
it's
C N N )
first-th in g
in the
m o rn in g .
S u ch
ta s k in g
d id
n o t a lw a y s
com e
fro m
th eDCI - th e y
u s u a lly
cam e
fro m
A D e llC
C h a rlie
A lle n ,
w ho
w o u ld
c a ll a n d
say that the D CI asked
h im
to stir the pot.
I t d id n o t m a tte r
w h e th e r
C h a rlie
A lle n
w a s a c tu a lly
sp eak in g
fo r th e D C I o r n o t, N S A
w o u ld
resp o n d
anyw ay.
C h a rlie
A lle n
b rin g s
an energy
le v e l-
y o u
never ask him
to d o s o m e th in g
th a t y o u d o n o t w a n t
to g e t d o n e .
H e r c o n ta c t
w ith
th e A D e ll
A & P
w as less frequent
b u t th a t w a s n o t n e g a tiv e
- a lot
o f p e o p le
d o n o t th in k
of N SA
as an A & P
s h o p , s o th e fa c t is th a t it m a k e s
m ore
se n se
fo r th e
A D C IIC
to c a ll h e r a s th eD D O
o f a c o lle c tio n
ag en cy .
T he
n ev er
c a lle d
h er.
D T he
A D C IIM ilita ry
S u p p o rt
w o u ld
cro ss-o v er
and talk to the N SA
A D D O /M ilita ry
S u p p o rt.
The NSA
p o sitio n
w as
sin c e
a b o lis h e d ,
w h ic h
is a b a d th in g .
She had had
a g ro u p
in
N SA
a sse ss
h o w
to im p ro v e
N S A 's
p ro v isio n
of m ilitary
su p p o rt,
a n d th e g ro u p
recom m ended
c re a tio n
o f th e
A D D O /M S
p o s itio n .
S h e in itia lly
ad d ed
the m ilitary
su p p o rt
re sp o n sib ility
to the
p o rtfo lio
o f a p re e x is tin g
p o sitio n
b u t la te r s h e a n d h e r s ta ff d e te rm in e d
th a t a fre e -s ta n d in g
p o sitio n
was needed,
w h ic h
sh e
in s titu te d .
T he A D D O IM S
p ro v id e d
a single
p o in t
o f c o n ta c t
a t
N SA
for m ilitary
su p p o rt
issu e s
- th e A D D O
h ad
a u th o ritie s
w ith in
theD O but also across
d a ta
a c q u is itio n
an d
in fra stru c tu re
a ssu ra n c e .
S h e n o te d
that m ilitary
su p p o rt
is different
th a n
su p p o rt
for m ilitary
o p e ra tio n s
(S M O ).
T he
A D C IIM S
is "m ore
c o s m e tic
th a n
s u b s ta n tiv e "
b ecau se
it is
C IA
th a t is c h a rg e d
w ith
n o t b e in g
resp o n siv e
to the m ilitary
- but the ADCIIM S
isan IC -w ide
ra th e r
th a n
C IA
s p e c ific
jo b ,
a n d th e
A D C I/M S
d o es
not have
m uch
a b ility
to affect what goes
o n
w ith in
C IA
or across
th e c o m m u n ity .
I n a n y e v e n t, a ll o f th e s e jo b s
a re p e rs o n a lity -
d e p e n d e n t.
G eneral
G o rd o n
w ent
fro m
th a t p o s itio n
to b e D O C I, w h ile
o th e rs
in th a t p o s itio n
h av e
su b seq u en tly
re tire d .
D C ID e u tc h
w o u ld
som etim es
c a ll h e r w h e n
he was unhappy
w ith
N SA
p ro d u cts.
DCI Tenet
m ig h t
call her before
h e w e n t to a W h ite
H ouse
m e e tin g
on a subject
to g e t in fo rm a tio n
for use at
th e
m e e tin g .
W hen
G eneral
G o rd o n
w as
D O C I, h e w o u ld
call the O IR N SA ,
th e D e p D IR N S A ,
o r th eD D O
to get the system
m o v in g .
R e g a rd in g
th e re c e ip t
o f g u id a n c e ,
h e r c o m m e n ts
a b o u t re c e iv in g
in fo rm al
g u id a n c e
a re
. d e ta ile d
ab o v e.
T h ere
w ere
b iw e e k ly
fo rm al
p ro g ra m
m anagers
m e e tin g s .
S h e w o u ld
a tte n d
a s
D epD IR N SA
if th e D IR N S A
w as
u n a v a ila b le .
If the O epD ,IR N SA
is u n a v a ila b le ,
th e N S A
E x e c u tiv e
D irector
m ig h t
a tte n d
for m ore
reso u rce-o rien ted
issu e s
a n d th e D D O
m ig h t
a tte n d
fo r
m ore
s u b s ta n tiv e
issues, she som etim es
a tte n d e d
w hen
she w as D D O .
N IE
d is c u s s io n s /c o o rd in a tio n
is d o n e
a t th e
le v e l.
D he
re c a lle d
the H ard
T a rg e ts
S tu d y
a n d p a rtic ip a te d
in that.
~
~~~
~~~
__ ~
__~~~~~
~
__ ~I
She cannot
rem em ber
if there
w ere
s p e c ific
s u b s ta n tiv e
fo c i w ith in
th o s e
co u n try -fo cu ses.
She cannot
rem em ber
ifN S A
p u t to g e th e r
a docum ent
re g a rd in g
th e h a rd
ta rg e ts
d isc u ssio n s.
S h e th o u g h t
th e
H ard
T a rg e ts
s tu d y
w as a good' m odel
fo r h o w
to fo c u s
efforts .
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