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INTERFAITH ALLIANCE STATE OF BELIEF RADIO JULY 19, 2014

RUSH TRANSCRIPT: David Saperstein


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[KEVIN ECKSTROM, SUBSTITUTE HOST]: Due to the improbability
of ENDAs passage by a Republican-controlled House exemption or
no exemption the Obama administration recently announced a
coming executive order, requiring ENDA-like protections for LGBT
workers employed by federal contractors. Now, out of concern over
the possibility of too-broad religious exemptions in that order, a
number of rights groups have expressed concerns. A letter signed by
prominent leaders, including Interfaith Alliance president Welton
Gaddy, went to the White House earlier this month. And this week, 60
religious and civil rights groups signed onto a similar message to the
President. Interfaith Alliance was among the signatories; and so was
the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism.
Joining me now is Rabbi David Saperstein. Hes the Director of the
RAC, and a longtime board member of the Interfaith Alliance
Foundation.
David, welcome back to State of Belief!
[RABBI DAVID SAPERSTEIN, GUEST]: Always a pleasure to be
here.
[KE]: So, Religious Action Center has joined many others, including
Interfaith Alliance, in writing to the President regarding the religious
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exemptions in the anticipated executive order on federal contractors.
Tell me about your concerns.
[DS]: This should be a matter of core principle, here in the United
States, that tax dollars should not be used to discriminate. Theres
something deeply troubling about the notion that someone pays their
tax dollars to the government; the government then partners with a
private organization a religious organization and then that
religious organization would be able to discriminate against the very
person whose money was paid into it. So this is a core principle for
many of us; it was one that the President afrmed in his Zanesville
speech while he was running for the presidency, and it would be our
hope that there would be no religious exemption, as far as an
executive order would be concerned, protecting protected classes
including the LGBT community.
I should point out that there is an existing exemption that has been on
the books since President Bush, that does exempt religious
organizations and allows them to discriminate on the basis of religion
in who they hire with government money. And its not clear that the
administration would reverse that; its probably more likely they would
leave that intact in passing an executive order, but weve asked them
to rescind that, as we asked the Bush administration before this
administration, to rescind that executive order allowing discrimination.
[KE]: And as I understand it, the Bush-era policy that youre talking
about dealt with the faith-based ofce and faith-based groups that
contract with the government. So is that really much diferent from the
executive order on LGBT in federal contractors?
[DS]: What would likely happen - no one knows, because no ones
seen, publicly, the executive order - what would likely happen is they
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would add LGBT to an existing executive order that actually was
passed by President Roosevelt that bars discrimination on the basis
of race, age, gender, national origin in federal contracting a range of
protected classes would now add LGBT to that. Since the Bush
executive order added to all of the protected categories the right to
discriminate on the basis of religion only not against any of those
targeted classes that very likely would stay in place. The
administration has the choice to do as we have asked, to eliminate it
and not allow any discrimination with government money; or the
administration could listen to a number of prominent religious leaders
who have written asking for a broader exemption an ENDA type
exemption that would allow for discrimination against the LGBT
community per se by religious groups. That would be unprecedented
in terms of federal contracting. But all of that is in play, and it remains
to be seen what the administration will do.
[KE]: So Welton has talked on this show about the listening sessions
that the White House has held with leading religious organizations in
preparing this non-discrimination order. So how clearly do you think
the administration has heard that message, that in todays climate,
religious exemption language could end up being an invitation to
discriminate? Are they hearing you, do you think?
[DS]: Look, the hardest issues in public life are when two valid moral
principles are in tension with each other. Thats the case here: with all
of these debates Hobby Lobby, ENDA, the executive order the
religious freedom and religious liberty of people, people able to follow
their conscience in functioning as citizens. And against that, the
obligation to prevent people from being discriminated against by
characteristics that are core to their conscience or core to their
identity. In general, we dont allow religious claims with government
money against people because theyre women; because theyre men;
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because theyre disabled. And now we hope LGBT will be added to
that list.
As I said, the Bush exemption does allow for discrimination in a
federal contract for a Catholic agency to hire Catholics with
government money; a Jewish agency to hire Jews; a Muslim agency
to hire Muslims. Whether it goes beyond that, to what is called
religious tenets that is, they can discriminate against people who do
not follow the religious beliefs of the faith that would actually allow
for discrimination for, lets say, against an unmarried woman who
becomes pregnant and had sexual relations without being married for
a religion that thought that was immoral, and someone wouldnt be in
good standing. Or against the LGBT community if they thought that it
would not be allowed. No one knows what the outer parameters of the
existing exemption are, but what some are calling for is an outright
exemption an ENDA type exemption and the diference between
the Employment Non-discrimination Act that has been moving
through Congress with a fairly broad exemption that did allow for
discrimination against the LGBT community from religious institutions
and this is private money is at stake in the ENDA exemption; this is
government money here. And you shouldnt discriminate with
government money.
I would hope well look back in history at the idea of discriminating
with government money against protected categories as one of those
mystifying artifacts of the past in the not-too-distant future.
[KE]: Now, and just to be clear, since were talking about the ENDA,
the Employment Non-discrimination Act and there have been
groups that have pulled their support for that where is your ofce on
the bill as it currently sits?
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[DS]: No ones pulled their support for ENDA. In other words, the
Employment Non-discrimination Act says, there are 29 states in this
country where an employer still can fre someone simply because that
person is gay or lesbian, all right? And people feel, we now
understand enough about the natural characteristics of the LGBT
community that people ought not to be discriminated on the basis of
sexual orientation or gender identity. And we want to bar that, like we
do discrimination against blacks, against religious groups, against any
other category of protected classes.
The question is, how broad a religious exemption that will allow
religious groups that believe homosexual activity is wrong or that not
to hire people in this category? And here, theres a fairly broad
exemption. And the reason there was a broad exemption broader
than exists in Title VII, the Civil Rights Act itself, that allows for
discrimination not on the basis of religion but of religious identity the
reason this was brought up is many advocates in the LGBT rights
community believed it was the only way to get it passed. That it would
take the Catholic Church out from under it, it would take certain of the
Evangelical groups - it was a bitter pill to swallow, in order to have
millions of people covered.
Now, with enough momentum in making gains in civil rights for the
LGBT community, some of the very people who had supported a
broad exemption now want to do away with the broad exemption and
just leave the Title VII exemption in place that says you cant
discriminate on the basis of religious identity.
[KE]: So youre an attorney and a longtime activist here in DC. What
are your greater concerns about where this current appetite for
exemptions could ultimately take us whether theyre based on
religion or anything else?
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[DS]: Well, the real problem is the Hobby Lobby case. By giving
religious exemptions to a broad category of employers millions of
employers in this country and allowing them to make religious
claims to discriminate on the basis of religion, this is deeply, deeply
troubling. I mean, you can see that its not just, I have a religious
objection to contraception; it could be to transfusions, to any kind of
medical Christian Scientists; it could be a religious objection to
working with women! It could be a religious exemption to working with
Jews; a religious exemption to working with Catholics Theres no
end to the claims that can be made.
And the question is, whether or not the general rule that protects core
constitutional rights that was undercut by the Supreme Courts
decision in Oregon v. Smith on religious freedom, and restored by the
Religious Freedom Restoration Act whether that will protect
protected categories against discrimination in the face of religious
objections of employers or not. Thats really the biggest problem
today. RFRA has, in the main, worked to balance religious liberty
against the rights of third parties, but where it comes to corporations,
it really is a deeply, deeply alarming Pandoras box thats been
opened here.
[KE]: Right. So this is really, I think in many ways, just the beginning
of this fght.
[DS]: Were going to have litigation across the board. The phrasing of
the case - the Hobby Lobby case and the decisions in that - is so
ambiguous in terms of what the extent of the claims are: is it only
closely-held corporations, or was that just named because it was the
kind of corporation that was here? Is it only healthcare claims; is it
any kind of claim that can be made? Were going to have thousands
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and thousands of cases coming up through the courts, and people
making religious claims. And you know we have been spared, in this
country, the divisions along sectarian lines that have torn apart so
many other countries, including many democracies, across the globe
because of the separation of Church and State that doesnt have the
government choosing amongst religions, and because of the robust
religious liberty claims here that have been characterized as applying
to religious groups and to non-proft organizations where people join
around a particular cause.
But usually, the court has held more like in US v. Lee, where you
enter commerce, you have to give up certain rights that you would
have otherwise to be part of the commercial landscape of America.
This now abandons that idea, and opens it up to these kinds of
religious divisions that threaten to exacerbate the culture wars and
tear America apart.
[KE]: So, last question for you: theres a lot of pressure on the other
side, urging the administration to maximize these religious
exemptions in any non-discrimination order to make the exemptions
broader rather than smaller. Do you have any prediction as to who
may eventually prevail? Youre a smart guy; you know that, right?
[DS]: Its really hard to know. I think the administration understands,
deeply, the nature of religious freedom claims. The President is a
deeply religiously knowledgeable person; he understands the
religious community. He has enormous support across a broad range
in the religious community, but hes deeply committed to civil rights,
and hes deeply committed to including the LGBT community within
the categories of protected classes that cant be discriminated against
without a compelling interest by the government to do it.
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If I had to guess, I think that theyll probably leave the Bush exemption
intact; they will not add or diminish anything, and simply add the
LGBT community, recognizing that that protection will make it
possible, again, for hundreds of thousands or millions of people who
work for government contractors to be free of discrimination simply on
the basis of who they are. So I expect there will be an executive
order; I would be hard-pressed to see that they would change it one
way or the other. But in balancing these out, who knows.
And as long as this is the last question, let me just simply say what an
honor it is, Kevin. Ive done this with Welton Gaddy many times; but
you have been extraordinary in your leadership of the Religion News
Service. That is a key tool for information and understanding by
religious people and others all across America, and I thank you
for your good work.
[KE]: Well, thank you! This has been fun.
Weve been talking with Rabbi David Saperstein. Hes the Director of
the Religious Action Center of Reform Judaism. This week, the RAC
joined almost 60 other religious and human rights groups in signing
on to a letter to the Obama administration, urging restraint in any
religious exemption language in the coming executive order
mandating protections for LGBT workers who are employed by
federal contractors.
David, thank you so much for making time to be with us once again
on State of Belief Radio.
[DS]: Take care.
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Selected by Newsweek magazine in 2009 as the most infuential


rabbi in the country and described in a Washington Post profle as the
"quintessential religious lobbyist on Capitol Hill," Rabbi David
Saperstein represents the Reform Jewish Movement to Congress and
the Administration as the Director of the Religious Action Center of
Reform Judaism (RAC).
Under Rabbi Saperstein, writes J.J. Goldberg in his book Jewish
Power, the Religious Action Center "has become one of the most
powerful Jewish bodies in Washington, second only to AIPAC." In
addition to its advocating on a broad range of social justice issues,
the RAC provides extensive legislative and programmatic materials to
synagogues nationwide and coordinates social action education
programs that train nearly 3,000 Jewish adults, youth, rabbinic and
lay leaders each year.
During his over three-decade tenure at the helm of the RAC, Rabbi
Saperstein has headed several national religious coalitions, including
the Coalition to Protect Religious Liberty. He serves on the board of
numerous national organizations including the NAACP, People For
the American Way, National Religious Partnership on the
Environment and the World Bank's "World Faith Development
Dialogue."
In 1999, Rabbi Saperstein was elected as the frst Chair of the U.S.
Commission on International Religious Freedom, created by a
unanimous vote of Congress, and in 2009, he was appointed by
President Obama as a member of the frst White House Council on
Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. In 2004 and 2006, the
Wall Street Journal and the Religion News Service respectively
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described him as among the country's most infuential shapers of
religious issues in national elections.
Also an attorney, Rabbi Saperstein teaches seminars in First
Amendment Church-State Law and in Jewish Law at Georgetown
University Law School.
A prolifc writer and speaker, Rabbi Saperstein has appeared on a
number of television news and talk shows including Oprah, Nightline,
Lehrer News Hour, ABC's Sunday Morning, Crossfre, the Rachel
Maddow Show, Hardball - and the O'Reilly Factor. His articles have
appeared in the Washington Post, the New York Times and the
"Harvard Law Review." His latest book is Jewish Dimensions of
Social Justice: Tough Moral Choices of Our Time.
Rabbi Saperstein is married to Ellen Weiss, an award-winning
journalist. They have two sons, Daniel and Ari.
Rabbi Saperstein is part of a large rabbinic family. Two great uncles
were Reform rabbis, and two great-grandfathers were Orthodox
rabbis; his father Harold and uncle Sanford were well-known Reform
rabbis; and his brother Marc is one of this generation's leading Jewish
scholars.

Kevin Eckstrom is Editor-in-chief at Religion News Service. Kevin


joined the RNS staf in February, 2000 and became editor in 2006.
Prior to coming to RNS, he worked as religion editor at the Stuart/Port
St. Lucie News in Florida. He was the winner of the 2000 Cassels
Award for small newspapers from the Religion Newswriters
Association. Under his leadership, RNS was named Best Wire
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Service by the Associated Church Press for both 2006 and 2007
the only time RNS has won back-to-back years. Eckstrom holds a
M.S. from Columbia Universitys Graduate School of Journalism and
a B.A. from The George Washington University.
In 2007, he was elected president of the Religion Newswriters
Association. His work was featured in Changing Boundaries: The
Best Religion News Writing of 2003.

State of Belief is based on the proposition that religion has a positive


and healing role to play in the life of the nation. The show explains
and explores that role by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in
America the most religiously diverse country in the world while
exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion for
partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government for
sectarian purposes.
Each week, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy ofers listeners critical
analysis of the news of religion and politics, and seeks to provide
listeners with an understanding and appreciation of religious liberty.
Rev. Gaddy tackles politics with the frm belief that the best way to
secure freedom for religion in America is to secure freedom from
religion. State of Belief illustrates how the Religious Right is wrong
wrong for America and bad for religion.
Through interviews with celebrities and newsmakers and feld reports
from around the country, State of Belief explores the intersection of
religion with politics, culture, media, and activism, and promotes
diverse religious voices in a religiously pluralistic world.
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Author of more than 20 books, including First Freedom First: A


Citizens Guide to Protecting Religious Liberty and the Separation of
Church and State, the Rev. Dr. C. Welton Gaddy leads the national
non-partisan grassroots and educational organization Interfaith
Alliance and serves as Pastor for Preaching and Worship at
Northminster (Baptist) Church in Monroe, Louisiana.
In addition to being a prolifc writer, Dr. Gaddy hosts the weekly State
of Belief radio program, where he explores the role of religion in the
life of the nation by illustrating the vast diversity of beliefs in America,
while exposing and critiquing both the political manipulation of religion
for partisan purposes and the religious manipulation of government
for sectarian purposes.
Dr. Gaddy provides regular commentary to the national media on
issues relating to religion and politics. He has appeared on MSNBCs
The Rachel Maddow Show and Hardball, NBCs Nightly News and
Dateline, PBSs Religion and Ethics Newsweekly and The Newshour
with Jim Lehrer, C-SPANs Washington Journal, ABCs World News,
and CNNs American Morning. Former host of Morally Speaking on
NBC afliate KTVE in Monroe, Louisiana, Dr. Gaddy is a regular
contributor to mainstream and religious news outlets.
While ministering to churches with a message of inclusion, Dr. Gaddy
emerged as a leader among progressive and moderate Baptists.
Among his many leadership roles, he is a past president of the
Alliance of Baptists and has been a 20-year member of the
Commission of Christian Ethics of the Baptist World Alliance. His past
leadership roles include serving as a member of the General Council
of the Cooperative Baptist Fellowship, President of Americans United
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for Separation of Church and State, Chair of the Pastoral Leadership
Commission of the Baptist World Alliance and member of the World
Economic Forums Council of 100. Rev. Gaddy currently serves on
the White House task force on the reform of the Ofce of Faith Based
and Neighborhood Partnerships.
Prior to the fundamentalist takeover of the Southern Baptist
Convention (SBC), Dr. Gaddy served in many SBC leadership roles
including as a member of the conventions Executive Committee from
1980-84 and Director of Christian Citizenship Development of the
Christian Life Commission from 1973-77.
Dr. Gaddy received his undergraduate degree from Union University
in Jackson, Tennessee and his doctoral degree and divinity training
from the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary in Louisville,
Kentucky.
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