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English: Debate of Edip Yuksel vs. Ali Sina

English: Debate of Edip Yuksel vs. Ali Sina

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Published by Pulp Ark
Not long ago, as a Quranic Muslim Reformist, I was trapped like just like Edip. Many Muslims cowers under the pretext of the unreliability of Hadis. In which they thought Quran can stand by its own. This debate helps to inspire on how to break such thoughts.
Not long ago, as a Quranic Muslim Reformist, I was trapped like just like Edip. Many Muslims cowers under the pretext of the unreliability of Hadis. In which they thought Quran can stand by its own. This debate helps to inspire on how to break such thoughts.

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Published by: Pulp Ark on Jul 04, 2010
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08/14/2013

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Taken fromhttp://faithfreedom.org/debates/EdipYuksel.htmRound I
 
Someone contacted Dr.Edip Yuksel,a prominent member of the submitters and a follower of Dr. Rashid Khalifato debate with me (  Ali Sina
 
 ). Dr. Yuksel kindly accepted the challenge and here is our discussion.
 Dear Edip YukselThe invitation must have been sent to you by one of the members of FFI. But I am glad that you agreed to thisexchange.I will start with something that needs clarification and it has to do with your position as a Quran onlyMuslim.You apparently deny all the Hadiths. Can you please tell us whether you also deny the books of history such asSrat, Tabari and Al Waqidi?If so on what you base your knowledge of Muhammad as a historic person? How do you know about him, hislife, his companions, etc?Do you perform the rituals of obligatory prayers fasting, hajj etc? If you do how do you know that is the wayMuhammad intended. There are no descriptions of these rituals in the Quran. All these details are in thehadith which constitute the bases of the sunna. But you deny the authenticity of the hadith. So where do youget the important information that is missing in the Quran?Finally, do you recognize the importance of some of the hadiths at least for their historic value?Dear Ali Sina:A good question.Syrat (history of prophet and his companions) were written after hadith and civil war intellectually andemotionally contaminated the so-called Islamic land. Though some are more critical than the other, still theyall rely on hadith and hearsay. Besides, they are also not immune from the influence of political and religiouspowers of their time.Historically, the Quran is the most authentic book reflecting the events. In fact, the Quran is like a journal of major events with lost chronology. Surely, you will claim that the narrative of the Quran is from theperspective of Muhammad and his interest. I think and hope that we will find a way to come into a reasonableagreement on major historical events.I do not think that you are relying on every historical report of the syrah books, such as Tabari or Waqidi. I willtreat each historical anecdote on ad-hoc basis and evaluate it critically with a healthy dose of suspicion.I think we both will agree on many issues, as long as we both try our best to be consistent and objective on thepurported stories.
 
uote:
 If so on what you base your knowledge of Muhammad as a historic person? How do you knowabout him, his life, his companions, etc?I mostly rely on the narration of the Quran. If the Quran's account contradicts the account of a particularnarration I chose the narrative of the Quran since it was written down when events were happening. However,if you chose the narrative of a book written five or ten centuries after the events, I expect you to provide agood reason for that choice.
uote:
 Do you perform the rituals of obligatory prayers fasting, hajj etc? If you do how do you know thatis the way Muhammad intended. There are no descriptions of these rituals in the Quran. All thesedetails are in the hadith which constitute the bases of the Sunna. But you deny the authenticity of the hadith. So where do you get the important information that is missing in the Quran?Interesting. I hear similar questions from Sunnis and Shiites. I do not follow any ritual that is not in the Quran. Iargue that all the details of Salaat (contact) prayer, zakat (purification of blessings), hajj (annual conference inMecca), and fasting in Ramadan are given in the Quran. For instance, if you have time, please find my article"How to Pray According to the Quran" at my website, yuksel.org
uote:
 Finally, do you recognize the importance of some of the hadiths at least for their historic value?Hadith, like every heresy, legend or story may contain some truth. They at least reflect the spoken language of their time, the culture, general events, mindset, economy, political and social tension among groups andnations.However, I will not consider Hadith as authority besides the Quran even if I know hundred percent that it wasuttered by Muhammad. I dedicate my religion to God alone, and I reject the religion of limited partnership thatis based on Allah + Muhammad + Muhammad's companions + early imams + mujtahids + later imams, etc.Peace, _________________Edip Yukselwww.yuksel.org www.19.org I went to your site and read your views on hadith
http://www.yuksel.org/e/religion/trash.htmSo you prefer to use the books of history to learn about Muhammad. That is fine with me. I will rely onhistory when I talk to you. However let us talk about hadith for now.Your position is that all hadiths should be scrapped because a lot of them are fabricated. Lomax, youropponent in that debate, made a valid observation. He said:The bound collection of testimony from anycourt is certain to contain some lies and some errors. The reliability of any piece of evidence remains
 
debatable.And if a collector collects a thousand hadith and makes a few errors neither is he to becondemned as unreliable. You rebutted his statement and said: Not a single court will accept the testimony of Bukhari who collectedcontradictory hadiths about the Prophet Muhammad, narrated from generation to generation 200 yearsafter his departure.On this issue I side with Lomax. Let us make this clear with an example. The police department of a city istrying to solve a case and asks for tips from the public. Thousands of tips pour in. Most of them arecompletely unrelated, but among those thousands a few corroborate a story and based on those related tipsthe detectives will be able to solve the case. It would be unconscionable to through away all the tipsbecause most of them are incorrect.In our case we want to know about Muhammad and how he lived his life. We have tens of thousands of tipsin the form of narrations of his followers. Many of them are weak leads and many of them are fabricated.We know also that the believers tend to exaggerate and aggrandize the virtues and attribute miracles totheir beloved prophet. So when it comes to these particular hadiths we should take them with a grain of salt. However when we put all these tips together the picture of a man emerges. We separate those tipsthat corroborate each other and based on them we sketch the profile of our suspect. Can we be 100% surethat this is how he looked? Maybe not! But because these tips come from a variety of sources and despitethe differences in detail they tell us the same story we can be fairly sure that we have a good idea of howour suspect looked and what he did.So if I were a responsible detective, I would not discard all the tips simply because some of them arefabricated, especially when there is no other source to depend on. However, what if the picture emerging of the suspect portrays my beloved father? What would be my natural reaction? I would probably want toscrap all the tips and discredit them. This is dishonesty. But hey, you are talking about my father. You areasking me to choose between filial piety and honesty. That is a tough choice. Not everyone can pass thattest. I would do everything to cover up my fathers crime and protect him. That is how I see you and allother hadith deniers. You do not like what you see in the hadith. They embarrass you. You find Muhammadtorturing his victims, beheading them, gauging their eyes, raping them and doing all sorts of despicable actsand all that hurts. So instead of being honest and admit that you were wrong and the man whom youworship is a psychopath criminal, you try to dismiss all the hadiths. You think if you put your head in thesand and pretend you do not see; the problem will go away. The despicable lawyers of O.J. Simpson did thatand they won. But does that mean that Mr. Simpson is innocent? Even if you win this case based ondiscrediting the evidence and technicalities, can you still live with your conscience?Can we use these hadiths in an actual court of law to incriminate Muhammad? I think we can. You mayargue that they are circumstantial and try to discredit them. But they are so many that any sane jury willfind it difficult to dismiss them. Muhammad is guilty as charged.However, our goal is not to take legal action against Muhammad. He is dead. We want to find out the truth.We may never be able to find the truth one hundred percent. But we can get a fairly good idea of it. Whatyou have now is absolute lie.Nonetheless, we have enough evidence in the
uran, in the books of history and in the hadith to becomecertain that Muhammad was not a messenger of God but a cult leader like Jim Jones and David Koresh andthis I will prove to you in our discussions.Muslims have fallen in love with Muhammad because they have been shown a picture of him whichportrays him as a holy man, a perfect human being, an example for all to follow, the mercy of God for all thecreation, etc, etc. That image is false. According to our tips, and his own book, he was far from being a goodman. How did the Muslims get that false picture in their minds? Because they were fed with lies! Itcertainly does not match the picture we get from our tips and from our thorough investigation. So whichpicture is more accurate? The one that is based on the fantasies of his followers or the one that emergesfrom the tips?

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