M.S.: Recently, several new organisations have been started, in particular the Philosophers of Naturebecause they found that many alchemists were starting from the beginning, reinventing the wheel,because the transmission of the knowledge was not happening. So much of in magic, Kabbalah, and thehermetic tradition has become secrecy bound. In SOL's Website, you recommend Regardie, and make nomention of Crowley.DAN: No, but when people say to me 'What do you think of Crowley?' I have an answer. I have greatrespect for the man. I have a great sympathy for the terrible upbringing that he had, I also think he washis own worst enemy. His cynicism was his downfall. But I notice that the people who are his greatestdenigrators go into a lodge and work his kind of magic. It's not that we don't acknowledge him. It's that Iregard his self as dangerous for newcomers. But, when you reach a point, where I think, you're going tomake a good supervisor, or possibly head a working lodge. Then I will say to them go a head and readCrowley, and know where he is deviating, because of his own weird sense of humour. The guy did have alot of problems, but he also did get quite a bit right.M.S.: You've said that the Western Traditions were in danger. Are they also like Crowley, their own worstenemy?DAN: Oh yes.M.S.: What are they in danger of or from?DAN: It is in danger of falling down under the weight of its own crassness. Nobody really wants to workanymore. Nobody has the dedication to say, "It's going to take me ten years to get through this thing."M.S.: That is related to what I am so often reminded of, that we have no Masters in the Westerntraditions, as opposed to the Eastern Traditions, or at least purported to be, and many have commentedto me, that their is no discipline in the Western Traditions, compared to the Eastern traditions. How do webring discipline to the Western Mystery Traditions? And, where are its Masters?DAN: Discipline. You see, I was trained in the Society of the Inner Light. Now that requires that youspend a certain amount of time in meditation, it also requires that you spend this time in early morning,because they say you're closer to the sleep state at that point. You're more likely at that point to almost,but not quite drop off, which brings about a lucid interlude. You're required to write this down within tenlines. Not five pages for every entry. If you have to use ten pages, you're not listening to what is beingtold to you in your meditation. Also, they like you to be able to condense what you've realised intosomething short, sharp, and explanatory. They expect you to have at your fingertips, a comprehensiveknowledge of two traditions or pantheons, whichever you like to call them. You're expected to study, toread, and they give you a book list. Now we follow something similar to this in the SOL. We are a little bitmore forgiving, we allow you fourteen lines, instead of ten. And I say to people, more than fourteen linesand it's going to get crossed through. So if your best realisation part is there, it's not going to be read.We know that there are people who work split shifts, so we don't say that you've got to do it at this time,but we do say we want a minimum of fifteen minutes. In the sense that if you're not going to getanything after fifteen minutes, you're not really going to get it after twelve more minutes, or sort of anhour. I don't believe in hours and hours of meditation. The mind is tired and starts to fold in on itself. Wedo have a reading list, it is fairly comprehensive, it includes fictional works as well on non-fictional. Wesay to people, if you're going to be a magician, you're going to have to have geology, paleontology,archeology, art, history, as many languages as you think you can cope with, music, a sense of color,mathematics. There are maybe twenty-three-ologies, that you can use, because magic so comprehensivea subject. I think that the Western Masters, however, are mostly withdrawn. They tend to work throughwhat we term the mind touch, overshadowing, or more rarely, the Indweller.M.S.: You have to be a Renaissance person.