Question and answer session with George R. R.

Martin
Octocon, Dublin, Ireland
4pm on Saturday, 16 October 2010

[0:00] [camera is focused on George R. R. Martin, hereafter “George” or

“GRRM”]
[0:02] GRRM: [unintelligible] So... Do we have a second microphone, and
uh someone to <pause> run about with it?
[0:06] Organizer 1: [unintelligible]
[0:10] GRRM: The other microphone is dead?
[0:11] Organizer 1: Yeah.
[0:12] GRRM: Ooookay. So, uh, we'll get started and shout out your
questions there. [points to audience] Yes.
[0:17] Questioner 1: Ah, the first question I want to ask you is, [camera
shifts to point to asker] where do you come up with all the names, and, ah,
the- their shorthand names [?that we all know about, covered by coughing
close to the phone microphone], where do they come from?
[0:28] GRRM: Where do the names come from?
[0:30] Questioner 1: Yeah.
[0:30] GRRM: Oh I, I mostly make them up! [audience laughs] Um. <long
pause> You know, names are, are sometimes difficult. I sometimes, uh,
struggle a long time to find the right name for a character. Um, until I come
with one that sounds - sounds right, really. [mobile phone ringtone in
background] Um, I made some decisions very early in this, uh, very, very
early, many, many - more than a decade, uh, ago now, a- about this, ah,
this series.
Important names, that are a little unusual, for, ah, for fantasy, or indeed for
any, uh, any work. You know, when you're a young writer... um, and you're
learning how to write, and, and other writers will tell you these "rules", these
little um, uh, things to keep in mind, and one of the rules that you get taught
very early is that, ah, you should never, um, you should never have, um, in
a- in a piece of fiction, two characters with names beginning with the same
letter, because the readers will confuse them. Uh, and that's advice I
followed for many years, actually, uh, a- and there's a certain amount of
truth to it, you know, as we read we don't necessarily pronounce every word,
with... reading is a silent process, and we- we- we see a letter and it sort of
reminds us of a character. Um, so, you don't necessarily want to have an
Edward and a Edmond in the same story, or you will get a certain amount of
confusion, but, uh, when I came to write this book, I realised, you know,
that's a great rule, but I have more than twenty-six characters, [pause while
audience laughs] so I'm gonna run out of letters pretty soon. And, of course,
I also drew a lot of inspiration from history, uh, and particularly English
history, and as I read this history, um, one thing that I realised is that
Edward is - e-everybody is named Edward and Henry.
Ah, there- there's millions of Edwards and Henrys running all over the place,
and, uh, a- three called Richard, but, uh, other than that there's [laughs]
there's not many people there, um, <pause> and these differentiated
between them in other ways. And I uh, but you know, if historians can do it,
why are - why are fiction writers presumed to be stupid? Uh, we can make
these distinctions too, and particularly in- in medieval history, you'll see, uh,
names running in families. You know, the Percy family of Northumberland,
for example, loved the name Henry. So you have Henry Percy who was
"Hotspur", and his father, who was Henry Percy, and his grandfather, who
was Henry Percy, and they didn't have numbers, like, uh, you know, they
had numbers and "Such-and-such, the 7th Duke of Argyll", and "the 12th
Baron of Buckingham", but uh, um, not the easy number part of name that
kings do, and yet we still differentiate it, and you saw that, so I wanted that-
I wanted that touch of realism, and naming is part of that, um. So I had, ah,
certain names like "Brandon" occurs very frequently among the Starks. With
the Lannisters, they have many, many names with a "T-Y"- beginning with a
"T-Y" as a, as sort of a family motif.
I also first had the whole back-story of, uh, what is the history of Westeros,
the repeated waves of invasion: the- the Children of the Forest, and then the
First Men come, and then the Andals come, and then the Rhoynar come, and
last of all, the Targaryens, and each of these is a different kind of ethnic
group, a different historical group, and would have a different naming, uh,
tradition, so the Targaryen names are very distinctive, with, uh, y'know, "A-
E"s, and uh, particular use of "Y"s, and the sort of distinctions there. So I
tried to make each, each family and each ethnic group have naming patterns
that were still a little different from the rest. Um, but there's still a lot of
times where I'm writing something, and say "Okay, this innkeep, I need a
name for this fucking innkeep here, what the hell can I name him?" Um, and
I think yeah that some of these names have been changed half a dozen
times. Um, it- it's just something about, uh... <pause> A name, it- it, eh,
when you get it right, you feel that it's right, a-and uh, when you don't have
that skill, and you keep casting about and you keep changing it until, um,
until it comes right.
Certain writers have a real gift for names, I mean JRR Tolkien was, I think,
brilliant with names, and he just tossed them out, of course, I mean, he was
a master linguist, um, so he had command of other languages. I am not, uh,
a master linguist, uh, or an Oxford don, so I can't hope to, uh, match him in
any of that. But even Tolkien [?nodded occasionally at] - I've always felt that
Shadowfax sounds like some sort of Xerox method or something like that.
[audience laughs] "Send this with the shadowfax, will you, ah?" [laughs with
audience] Um, also he was great- Jack Vance was also marvelous for his
names. I don't know if that answers your question, but, uh, that's the best I
can do. [points to someone in the front row of the audience] Yes.
[5:42] Questioner 2: Eh, I just wonder, em, [camera changes to look at
questioner] as you're writing, em, and in between the times you're writing,
how much your day is consumed [trails off] with- with it.
[5:54] GRRM: How much of my day is consumed with Ice and Fire? It really
varies, day to day.
[5:59] Questioner 2: Do you [possibly "ever stop", but covered by GRRM:
Um] thinking about it?
[6:02] GRRM: Yeah, sometimes I stop thinking about it, when I - when I'm
in the middle of other things. There someone asked me on my blog recently
asking how often I work. I- I work, during <pause> fall, which is right now,
it's the American football season, you know. I know you guys like soccer over
here, we- we won't get into that issue, but I- I follow American football, and
particularly two teams, so I take off Sundays during the fall, roughly from
September through February, while they play out the American football
season, the games are every Sunday, and that's my day off, and I work six
days a week.
Uh, the rest of the year, I work seven days a week. But that doesn't
necessarily mean I'm writing chapters seven days a week. Uh, you know,
the- there's a lot to the business of being a writer beyond just the writing.
There's contracts to deal with, an- and, uh, correspondence to deal with, and
the more successful you are, the more of this these are. I- I have publishers
all over the world who are writing me, and uh asking questions, and I've got
covers to approve, and contracts to go over and sign, and I have, uh, three
or four different agents to deal with, I have movie deals, uh.... I have an
assistant who helps me with a lot of this business stuff, but a lot of that, it
hinges on my work too, um, and then I have other projects that I have to go
to, but Ice and Fire is always there. Um.
<pause> Sometimes I get into grooves where the work is going really well,
and then - then <pause> um <long pause> I may devote... you know, I may
get up and I, and I start work in the morning, I have my morning coffee and
I start working; I- I sort of vanish into a world, and I look up and it's dark
outside; the entire day is gone and I've done nothing but work on it, uh, and
those are great days. And frequently, when I get into that, I stay in that for-
for- for a good while, a week, or two weeks, or three weeks, um. Of course,
when I - when I get in one of those grooves, a lot of writing gets done, but
all the other stuff gets neglected, and I sometimes get bodily wrenched out
of it by horrible phone calls from publishers saying [using a nasal, whiny
voice, higher pitch, aka "publisher voice"] "The copy of this manuscript was
due back a week ago, and, and y'know the deadline is past! You have to get
on this!" [normal voice] So then, you know, ["publisher voice"] "You have to
approve this art cover" I get, et cetera, and um. So, uh, I have to do that,
but then there are some days that I would like there to be three of me
[audience chuckles] or twice as many hours in the day. <pause> Um.
<pause> But when um, when work on Ice and Fire is going really well, I- I'm
thinking of it even after I put it down, um, it's going around in my head, and
[? I'm averse] to the world, and so forth. But I can't say it's a permanent
state like that.
[pointing to another audience member] Yes, the gentleman. [the camera
refocuses on the man GRRM was pointing to]
[8:54] Questioner 3: Um, I'm curious about how much development... you
were talking about development before you actually started even before, um,
how much you've done and um how much you continue to do into sort of the,
uh, the whole world, even now, y'know, hi-histories and so on.
[9:14] [camera moves back to GRRM] GRRM: Well, um, when I began, it
was really nothing. I mean, I- I began the story and I barely knew who the
characters were. So it's not a case, uh, like Tolkien, who- who worked out
the whole world and the histories for a decade before he actually began to
write any- any works set in it. For me, the two things developed
simultaneously, an-and they're still working on that, you know? I mean, that
this story, the story of, uh, um, Sleepy Jack Musgrove uhhh... was- was
somebody I, uh, I invented, or that came to me when I was writing this
chapter. You know, Raymun Redbeard was- was referenced earlier, uh, as far
back as the first book as one of the prior Kings Beyond the Wall who had
invaded the Seven Kingdoms and whose invasion had failed. Um, <pause>
but this was the first time that the details of that invasion were ex- uh, were
explicated in any detail. Um, and, y'know, so I <pause> I put together who
was the, uh... how the- the invasion came to be, and how he got beyond the
Wall, and what happened to him, and of course I had to correspond it with
the history of the Starks, and who was the, uh, who was the Lord of
Winterfell at that point, and, um, et cetera. Of course, I'd already established
quite a few of the, uh, of the Lords of Winterfell going back, but I hadn't
necessarily tied any of them to dates.
Um, so it's- y'know, it's an ongoing process. It does get complicated
sometimes to- to do that, and, and, you know I have all these fans, which is
great. <pause> Um, but I gotta be careful because they're sharp-eyed sons
of bitches and [audience laughter] if I make any mistakes, uh, there's people
just lurking in the - in the woodwork to point it out to me. [Pointing to an
audience member] In the back there. [camera changes focus to the next
questioner]
[11:07] Questioner 4: Uh, speaking of- of fans, um, I know that Jim
Butcher has been for years relying on his fans to help him with the details;
they kept a Wiki, um, for a long time, until the- the RPGs came out and then
I can just look everything up there. Do your fans do- do you have- do you
have a fan base who, uh, who help you with those kinds of details, and eye
colour, who's the Lord of Winterfell when, that kind of thing?
[11:29] [camera is moving back to GRRM] GRRM: Well, I, uh, y'know I have
my own notes for stuff like that, but sometimes I have- I have an uber-fan
named Elio Garcia, who, uh, Ran, some of you know him as, and, uh, y'know,
um, when I'm doubtful about something, I can- I can uh always run it past
Ran and say, "Have I ever - Have I ever said anything about, uh, y'know,
Dolorous Edd's eye colour?" [audience laughs] and he will right away respond
and say, "Yes." Eye colour is... I- I - some days I regret ever giving anybody
coloured eyes. [audience laughs more] I- I never thought to keep a chart
about them, so, sometimes you can kind of look up and y'know, thank God
for search and replace. You know, I have one big document that has every
word of the- of the first four books in it, so I can do search and replace to
see every mention of a certain character, but certain things you can't search
for, like "blue eyes", you know, it's- it's just too common. You wind up
getting thousands of hits, so, um, it's good to have somebody like Elio to
check that out. [pointing to the audience] [camera shifts back to the
audience] Second row.
[12:36] Questioner 5: Em, d'y'know, as magic becomes more prevalent in
the world, em, do you have the rules worked out, how- how [? predicted]
they are, or is it very much [? worked] as you're going on?
[12:45] GRRM: How- what the system what is?
[12:47] Questioner 5: Eh, the magic, as in, is it very much to your own
discretion how it works, or do you have it all laid out beforehand, or....
[12:54] GRRM: Yeah, well it's, and y'know, of course, <pause> the whole
book is to my discretion how it works. [audience laughs] I- I don't have a
magic system, per se, um, I know some... some um, fantasy authors talk
about working out a "magic system." <pause> Um, which makes it sound to
my mind like Dungeons & Dragons, y'know, here... We're gonna play this
role-playing game, and here's- here's the rules for magic, and this is- this is
what you have to get out of each 20 for your spell to work, or something like
that.
<pause> I went back to Tolkien when I s- when I got into this book series,
and, uh, I y'know think he's still a master, and someone of the- all other
fantasists need to pay attention to. <pause> And what you- what you
discover when you read Tolkien with a- with an eye toward the magic is that
there's nothing approaching a magic system. Um, indeed there's very little
magic! Uh, Gandalf is referred to as "wizard", um, but he does no significant
spells of any sort. He's- he's wise, he knows many things, he speaks many
languages, and so forth. He's got a staff that glows a little, but when it
comes to a fight he still pulls out, uh, Glamdring and- and stands right next
to the, uh, the other guys, hacking it out and cutting- cutting Orcs in half. He
doesn't- he can't, uh, whisper a *poof* spell and slay an entire army or
anything like that, as- as you will see happen in what I think are bad
fantasies that followed.
Um, I think a fantasy needs magic. It needs it, uh, y'know, as a seasoning,
but <pause> too much seasoning and you can- you can overwhelm your,
your dish, and then you don't taste anything but the salt, or- or whatever it
is, and too much magic can ruin a fantasy. Uh, you need just a little.
And my other thing is that magic, uh, magic has to be magical. It has to be
mysterious, it has to something that violates the, the- the laws of nature.
Um, y'know, if- if you're a student of fantasy, and you know some of the
history of it, um, there was a magazine, um, between uh, the World Wars,
uh, called Unknown. It was edited by John W. Campbell, the famous editor of
Astounding Science Fiction. It was a... sister magazine to, uh, to Astounding,
and um, his fantasy magazine. And Campbell was a real rationalist, and
when he- he published Unknown, he- he- had a very particular brand of
fantasy, which I think was most typified by the- the Harold Shea stories,
written by uh, Fletcher Pratt and L. Sprague de Camp, and these were about
a engineer who found himself thrown into various mythological worlds, like
the world of the Norse gods, or the world of the Faerie Queene, um, you
know, classical worlds of- of- of fantasy, um, myth, and, and but- but of
course he was a rationalist, he would discover... When- when he- each world
he- Harold Shea would become a great wizard, by figuring out how the- the
magic worked in that world. And he would figure it out like the laws of
physics, but they were laws of magical physics. In other words, it was
treating magic as just different science, and all you had to know was the- the
laws, and, y'know, so much- mix so much newt eyes, and so many bat
wings, and say the right spells over them, and you would get this, uh, magic
elixir that could raise the dead, or whatever the hell it is. Um, <pause> that
was the Campbell kind of version of magic.
Those stories were a lot of fun; I enjoyed reading them, but I- to my mind,
that approach to magic, and the approach you see in a lot of role-playing
games with magical systems, makes magic unmagical. It's just science. It's
just made-up, bullshit science, then, that- based on principles that actually
don't work. Um, <pause> I think magic has to be more mysterious than
that. It has to be some more sense... I- I want less of John W Campbell and
more of H.P. Lovecraft in, in the magic, more- more sense that we're dealing
with dark and dangerous stuff that we don't fully uh comprehend, more
feelings that humans are- are, y'know, messing, messing with this, uh,
primal forces that, uh, they can never properly command or [?overstood],
however powerful they are. Um, not that it's just like a wiring diagram. So
that's kinda the way I try to approach magic. Ah, use, use it sparingly, but
when I use it, it- it has impact, I think. Um, <pause> and uh.... [trails off]
[unintelligible statement from audience] Yeah. Approach is different to this,
uh, obviously, it's one of the big uh- big way for every fantasy writer makes
his own, uh, makes his own rules. Um, y'know, Robert Jordan, another major
fantasist, uh, that I know many of you have read, uh, basically he treats his-
his magic is- is all psi, it's all psionics, it's... y'know, his One Source is
something you visualize, you have mental powers, you- you learn a
discipline, too; it's almost half- half yoga an- and half uh, um, y'know,
telekinesis, uh, teleportation, uh, all this stuff beginning with "tele-":
telepathy, et cetera. Um. That's yet another approach to it, also a science
fiction approach, rather than a magical approach. [pointing to the audience]
Yeah, first row there. [camera moves and focuses on the next questioner]
[19:00] Questioner 6: In, eh, Feast for Crows, eh, some characters you use
titles, to [? take what] the chapter, instead of the actual name, like
[interrupted by GRRM: "I..."] "The Kraken's Daughter", so why did you
decide to make that switch rather than using their actual names?
[19:13] [camera goes back to GRRM] GRRM: I'll let you work on that and try
to figure that out. [audience laughs] [pointing to the audience] Back there.
[camera follows GRRM's pointing]
[19:21] Questioner 7: How important is realism in your work, George?
[19:25] [camera pans back to GRRM] GRRM: Well, it's a fantasy, so
obviously it's not completely realistic, but I try to make it more- more
realistic to uh, the truths of human condition, at least, to have a- have an
emotional resonance. Obviously I'm writing about characters that never
existed, in a world that doesn't exist, but at the same time, I want you to,
while you're reading the books, to feel as though it does exist.
Um, one of the things when I set out, I- I was a fan of historical fiction as
well as fantasy, and I wanted to give it some of the grittiness and realism of-
of the best historical fiction mingled with the, with the sense of wonder of
fantasy. [Pointing to the audience] Someone over by the window there.
[camera points towards back of audience] Yeah.
[20:10] Questioner 8: Em, I wanted to ask about titles you've considered
for either the series or for individual books that you didn't use.
[20:20] GRRM: Right. [camera comes back to GRRM] Well, originally it was
supposed to be a trilogy, so it's just, uh [audience laughs], A Game of
Thrones, A Dance with Dragons, The Winds of Winter. I can never seem to
quite get to A Dance with Dragons, as you've noticed. [audience laughs] All
these other books keep inserting them into it. Um, so y'know, Clash of Kings,
Storm of Swords, Feast for Crows came along at certain other points. The
last book, uh, after... Winds of Winter's no longer the last book. Dance of
Dragons is the one I'm writing now, that'll be followed by Winds of Winter,
and then the last one is A Dream of Spring. So, y'know, all- I like all these
titles, they all ring to me, so uh... But that doesn't mean I'm not necessarily
gonna change them, if I think of something better before the time comes.
Um, I've been publishing them for years, so everybody in the world knows
what they are, so hopefully that will dissuade any other writers from stealing
them, [audience laughs] uh, which is sometimes my worry is that somebody
is going to come out with a book called A Dance with Dragons before I do.
[audience laughs more] [mobile phone text message noise] But, you know,
other books of mine, I have changed the title. Y'know, the book that was
published as Fevre Dream, when I began writing it was [mocking horror
voice] River of Blood [audience laughs], then it was Red Thirst, and then it
was... I forget what, there were a couple other titles before I finally hit on
Fevre Dream. Once I've hit on it, and I know I have it, I'm usually... I'll lock
in and then it doesn't change anymore. Though sometimes publishers weigh
in and say, "We want to change the title", but that hasn't happened here.
Now one thing you may have noticed, uh, which is gonna be interesting, is
that the- the HBO television series is called "Game of Thrones", it's not called
"A Song of Ice and Fire". So, uh, <pause> and when they give it a second
season, if we do get -- knock wood -- to the second season, uh, the second
season's not going to be "Clash of Kings", it's going to be "Game of Thrones,
Season 2". So, whether this will slop over to the books and more people will
start calling us Game of Thrones, and Song of Ice and Fire thing will be
progressively de-emphasized, I- I- I don't know. I do agree with them; "A
Game of Thrones" is a better title for a TV series than "A Song of Ice and
Fire". [pointing to audience] Yeah?
[22:49] [camera starts moving to audience member towards the front of the
audience] Questioner 9: Eh, do you know how the series'll end yet?
[camera moves back to GRRM]
[22:53] GRRM: The book series?
[22:54] Questioner 9: Yeah.
[22:54] GRRM: Yeah. [audience laughs] But I'm not going to tell you!
[audience laughs more] [pointing to back] Yeah.
[23:06] [camera rotates to the audience, focusing about two rows behind the
camera's location] Questioner 10: I remember when you did- when you
brought out A Feast for Crows and you said it was difficult, and you had to
divide the two- the two of them up. Do you see the last two in the series,
Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring being far more... easier, and directly to
the point [trails off]
[23:21] GRRM: You know, [camera refocuses on GRRM at the front of the
room] [covered by laughter, could be "I'm really not"] where I'm not going to
say that anything's going to be easy. [more audience laughter] That's- that's
just tempting Fate here, uh, especially this- this last book, or two books,
however you want to slice it. The Feast for Crows /Dance with Dragons thing
has frustrated me and every prediction I've that made along the way as to
when it would be done, and what- how- how long it would be big, y'know.
<long pause> I have people complain- I know a portion of my fans complain
because I don't have- update often enough, or predict when- when it'll be
done, y'know. I- And, and partly it's because I have done predictions towards
when it's gonna be done in the past, and then, of course, I- they're wrong
and I look like an idiot. Or, even more aggravatingly, I get accused of being
a liar. That's the one that really drives me crazy, the fans who... There
actually are fans out there who feel that I finished this book years ago, and
[audience laughs a little] just am deliberately withholding it to uh, uh, for
nefarious reasons of my own, uh. So, [sighs] I dunno. Those are the- the
"black helicopter crew" out there too. What can one say, um, but.... [shrugs]
<pause> [points to camera] D'you have something?
[24:36] Recorder: No, I'm... [?getting][trails off].
[24:38] GRRM: [points to far back in the audience] Yeah, back there.
[24:39] Questioner 11: Em, George, d'you find that the work in script
writing influenced how you wrote this series?
[24:47] GRRM: [short] Yes. <pause> [audience laughs] <pause> I worked
in television, as you know, television and film, but primarily television, for
ten years, from, 1985 to, uh, 1995. I wrote for a lot of television shows. I
also, about the same time, uh, edited and wrote the Wild Cards series, which
still goes on today. Uh, Wild Cards is my other major series. And both of
them had an impact on, um, on the structure of, uh, of this.
Y'know, in commercial American television, I- I know your... I guess your
setup is different here in the UK and, uh, Ireland, though I don't know the
full extent of it, but.... Uh, the commercial television networks [?that I
worked] for are driven by <long pause> advertising, so, you have one hour
of dramatic show, you actually only have 46 minutes. And you have a
structure; you have a four-act structure, or you have a five-act structure.
Sometimes you have, uh, y'know, four acts with a teaser, which is at the
beginning, or uh, four acts with a tag, that little thing at the end, uh, um,
five acts with teaser and a tag, which is really cumbersome, y'know, but...
you actually only have 46 minutes, and then you've got these commercial
breaks, uh, the number of which is determined by the precise structure. And
it's always been the fear in television that if-if- if the end of the chapter is
dull, that people will switch away during the commercial break to see what's
on another channel, and you don't want, uh, you don't want them to do that,
so all of American television is structured with "act breaks".
Um, [?we can get over-simple] people call them "cliffhangers" sometimes.
They, ah, they can be a cliffhanger, sure, you can have- you can have the
hero in danger at the end of a chapter and a big cliffhanger. What- most of
them aren't cliffhangers, but they are something, there's- At the end, at the
end of every act, before you go to commercial, there's something that
happens: there's a revelation, there's a twist, there's a strong emotional
moment, there are a number of different types of act breaks. But, y-y-you
wanna go out on some kind of act break. And after working in television for
ten years, it seemed to me that that was a valid way to structure a book,
too, and indeed you'll see a number of books, uh, John Grisham I think does
that kind of stuff. Uh, even a writer as horrific as- as Dan Brown. But- but
structuring your chapters with a number of act breaks, I think, oh, makes the
reader eager to come back and read the next chapter of that particular
character.
Instead of a commercial, of course, I immediately cut to different character,
though I've had a number of readers tell me they don't read it that way.
They skip, like they read "Tyrion" and they reach the end, and they get an
act break, and they skip ahead to find the next Tyrion chapter, which, of
course is, y'know, completely frustrates what I'm trying to do, but hey.
[audience laughs] It's- it's your piece of pie, you can eat it from either end.
You bought it, so um, so... So television did influence in that way. And,
dialogue as well, I think writing it for television for ten years really sharpened
my, uh, my ear for dialogue. Um, so that was, that was a factor there as
well. Um. Some of this, uh, also was reflected in the Wild Card books, uh,
particularly in the Wild Card mosaic novels, where we would have, uh, five or
six characters, and, um, their stories would all be interwoven. So when I
came up with the structure of this, and decided it would be a multi-character
structure, I said, [picks up paper from table] y'know, "This will be a, like a
Wild Cards [long pause, looks at paper] a Wild Card novel but with me
writing all those bits." Um, and it is that sense, so both of those had an
influence on there.
[pointing to someone about three rows back in the audience] Yeah.
[29:49] Questioner 12: Will there be more, eh, [camera moves to
questioner] spin-off stories, like the Hedge Knight comics?
[28:56] GRRM: Well, there'll be more Hedge Knight stories; I mean, uh,
[camera moves back to GRRM] the third one, "The Mystery Knight", just
came out in Warriors, the anthology I edited with Gardner Dozois, so, that's
uh, the third story of Dunk and Egg, and I do want to do a whole series more
of them, um, eventually have like nine or ten, or twelve, or however many it
takes to take those two characters through their- through their careers. Um,
but, the main series comes first, so I try to sneak those in when I can,
maybe write one between every- every volume of the book. [points about
halfway back through audience] Yeah, <name redacted>.
[29:30] Questioner 13: Um, [camera rotates to record questioner] one of
the things I like about a lot of your stories is, um, it's the repeating motif of
the "buddy story"? So you tend to- it's in a lot of the books you've written,
like Fevre Dream, or Hunter's Run, or... usually these two main characters
who, y'know, have a "bromance", or- or whatever it is, [audience and GRRM
laugh] a great buddy story. But obviously with Ice and Fire you have
thousands of characters, and you couldn't really have a buddy story, but if
you could have a buddy story in Ice and Fire, besides Dunk and Egg, but,
y'know, in the main timeline that we're dealing with, who would it be?
[30:03] [camera moves back to GRRM] GRRM: I think Jon and Sam, in some
senses, have a- have a buddy relationship. Um, [clears throat, pauses]
although it's somewhat I guess distorted by the fact that Jon is Lord
Commander. <pause> So... I mean, um, one of the things I'm- I'm
addressing here a little in the chapter I read is the whole issue of the
loneliness of command, uh, y'know, that you can have friends, and you can
have buddies, but once- once they make you Lord Commander, you- you
really can't, [short 'hm!' laugh] because now you're in the position where you
might have to say, "Hey, friend ol' buddy, [points toward the door] go there
and die!" [audience laughs] And-and that's, uh, that's hard to do. Um,
<pause> but um, y'know I do think friendships are- are important. There's,
uh, there's some in the new book that might qualify as "buddy" situations...
but y'know, with a sting in their tail too, I mean I'm- I'm never quite that
simple. The Dunk and Egg stories are a different animal. [points to the the
first row of the audience]
[31:14] Questioner 14: Yeah, eh, [camera turns to the questioner] just on
that point, sting in the tail, em, I've never encountered so many of eh, my
characters being brutalised [audience laughs] and dying off so, em,
unexpectedly. Ah, is that- is that a- what is that all about? [audience laughs
louder] [camera moves back to GRRM]
[31:34] GRRM: Um, [audience chuckles] <pause> that's a complex
question, [audience laughs] uh, that I can answer on several things, uh. First
of all, uh, sometimes they say you- you write the stories that uh, that you
want to read, so it's my own- and I'm a voracious reader, long before I was a
writer, um. What kind of stories do I like to read? I like to read stories that
involve me, but I- I hate predictable stories. I mean, my- my shelves are full
of books that I've never finished, but I- y'know, I know how they end. I've
read the first ten pages, and now I know exactly where the hell they're
going, um, because I've read this kind of story a thousand times before. Um,
so I like to surprise my readers, um, for- for good or ill.
And the other thing is, uh, <pause> my beefs about the- the uh, really the
purposes of fiction. And uh, why- why we read. I have a whole hour-long
lecture I give on this uh sometimes at conventions. I won't give it to you
here, um, there're many things we get out of reading fiction, but to my mind,
the-the one that's, uh, most important, is, eh, vicarious experience. Eh, the
best books for me are the books that I really fall into, and I read those
books, and it's- it's as if the adventure's happening to me. I'm not at a
distance, reading about "This is something that happened to someone else."
And after I'm finished it, I- I almost remember it as if it happened to me.
This is especially true with the distance of years, y'know. I look back on, uh,
y'know... I read Lord of the Rings, which is obviously a book which had a
profound impact on me. I read that book when I was in junior high school,
when I was like, uh, twelve or 13 years old, and I look back on that period in
my life, and I don't remember who sat at the desk next to me in my
classroom, or who sat behind me, or I can barely remember the names of my
teachers, uh, but I can remember what Frodo and Sam were going through,
uh, and- and what was said at the Council of Elrond, and.... It- It's almost as
though the fictional things have become part of my life <pause> more than
the things that really happened to me, and in that sense, maybe they are.
Um, maybe they- they are mine; they are my experiences.
So how do you achieve this? Well, there- there're a number of techniques for
doing this, uh, and one of 'em is, um, that you make it very real, and y- and
you engage- you engage the emotions. Um, I-ah-ah.... you use the senses.
So when I write about a feast, I- I want <pause> I want you to smell the
food, I want you to taste the food, I want you to have the sense that you're-
you're eating the, uh, eating the food, um, so it's something.... You know,
I'm reading about "Bill had a good meal," but you're- you're uh, you're-
you're almost experiencing the meal yourself. Uh, when I write a sex scene, I
want it to, uh, y'know, be arousing and absorbing, or else disgusting and
frightening, depending on the, of course, the particular context of it. Um, so
how does this apply when I- when you get to a battle scene. <long pause> I
think you need to be afraid. Everything I've read, uh, about people who uh,
have gone to war, y'know it's moments of extreme terror punctuated by pe-
... or, periods of boredom punctuated by moments of extreme terror, people
have described being at war, and I think there's a certain element of truth to
that.
War is, uh, part of virtually all fantasy. It was certainly a big part of my
fantasy, um <long pause> and I want <long pause>.... Y'know, y'know we
[sighs] there's fear and there's fear. Um, <pause> we all go on
rollercoasters, and we enjoy the fear of-of, of being on a roller coaster, uh,
and... we call it fear, but, y'know, it's not really fear, it's- it's uh... I dunno,
it's some kind of thrill, but we don't really think we're gonna die on that
rollercoaster; our lives are not at- eh, in jeopardy, however much we may
scream and yell. But we experience a different kind of fear if we're walking
home at night through a dark alley and suddenly we get the sense that
someone is following us, uh, that's a different kind of fear. Now, when we're
reading in fiction, <long pause> y'know, you've got your hero, you've got
your Indiana Jones, and suddenly he's- he's going after 40 Nazis. But we're
not afraid for Indiana, 'cause he's Indiana Jones, and they're only 40 Nazis.
[audience laughs] We know he- he's gonna... it's gonna end with those 40
Nazis pretty easily, and we may get a certain amount of enjoyment out of
that, [sighs] but... it doesn't engage us, it doesn't, uh, invoke our emotions
the way a really scary situation would. Um, i-in real life, y'know, if- if, uh, the
people who had a case like two Nazis, or even one Nazi coming through their
door to take them off, well, were pretty frightened about it.
Um, <pause> and that's what I want. I want the sense that uh, any of my
characters could die at any moment, 'cause, indeed, that's what happens in
war, that- that uh, y'know, if you ride off to battle, you can be a great
warrior, and you can be brave as hell, but you still could die. And, um, you
don't know what a Fate threw ya, and um, you may not live to see the next
dawn, um <pause> and you gotta have the sense that if-if- you build that
sense in, uh, then I think that all those scenes of battle and swordfights and
things have- have so much more impact, and if you do survive, the- the fruit
of that victory is so much sweeter, 'cause my God, you made it through
another one. You lived to see another day, and if you- and if you survived
but your friends died, and you get survivor guilt, all these real, kind of real
things that the real world has, that's what I'm- that's what I'm groping for.
I'm not interested in writing the Indiana Jones kind of story. I mean, I enjoy
those as much as everybody, but the-the- the not- but not what I'm doing.
So the only way to do that is to, very early on, I think, establish that you're
playing for keeps, and kill some people that it's not expected to kill. 'Cause
we've all read, y'know, the fantasy story where we meet the- the band- the
gallant band of adventurers, and no matter how much happens, okay, here
comes 50 people to attack them, but there- there's not- no-one's gonna be
hurt; they're gonna waltz through that without any problem 'cause they're
heroes. Or even if there's just one hero, we know he's immune. I don't want-
if you ever have that sense in my books that anyone is immune, and can't be
hurt. So, I dunno. [shrugs] Does that answer your...?
[39:08] Questioner 14: Yeah, a lot, a lot, yeah yeah yeah. It does keep you
on your toes! [chuckles from audience] [GRRM is pointing to the next
audience member]
[39:11] GRRM: [camera is moving to focus on the person George was just
pointing to] A bit, yeah. [laughs] Yes.
[39:13] Questioner 15: Um, is there any characters in your book that
you've based on people you know, or yourself as well?
[39:20] GRRM: Uh, there are- there are some people, uh, y'know, where do
we get characters from? I mean, you do base characters on people you
know. You base them on characters from history, from other books, uh, and
you base them most of all on yourself. Uh, <pause> yourself is the biggest-
the biggest source of any character, because, uh, for any writer, the person
that they know best, the only person that they can really know down deep is
themselves. Uh, now you need a certain amount of empathy to do that. Uh,
I've often thought that empathy is the most, uh <pause> important single
skill for- for a writer. Uh, the ability to imagine what it would be like to be
someone other than, uh, other than yourself, and to sympathize with uh,
with that, um. <pause> I don't tend to do one-to-one things, like I don't
take Cousin Fred and write a character who's exactly like Cousin Fred, but I
may notice that Cousin Fred has a particular turn of phrase that's useful, or a
habit that- that's interesting, or a way of looking at the world, and I may
take that thing of Cousin Fred, but.... give it to some character who's based
on someone from history, or then if I go inside them I'm throwing out some
of my own thoughts about that, so it's a- it's a mixture of ingredients from
several things, but the most important thing that goes into character creation
is uh, indeed I think empathy and then, um, yourself.
Are you, uh, an aspiring writer?
[41:05] Questioner 15: [unintelligible] [camera moves partway back to
questioner, and then returns to GRRM]
[41:09] GRRM: When I teach... when I- uh I sometimes teach at the Clarion
workshop, uh, um, which is a, um, a um a writers' workshop in the United
States, and there's a couple interesting exercises that I, uh, sometimes give
my students. [clears throat] Um, it really gives you, uh, [?empathy with] the
character. They're not easy exercises. Um. One of 'em is to, uh, is to write- I
usually have them, uh I do this anonymously, and then we circulate them
without names on it, but it's to, uh write just a simple page about the worst
thing that you've ever done <pause> in your life. There's just a certain,
when you are a writer there's a certain vulnerability. Y- you have to-
eventually, eh, any writer worth reading is going to write a story he doesn't
want Mother to read. [faint laughter from audience] Um. <long pause> You
have to expose yourself, you- y'- you have to be honest with yourself, you
have to put the vulnerability out there, so writing this exercise about actually
going back and confronting, and confessing, uh, in- in essence to the whole
world, not to a priest in the privacy of a confessional, the worst thing you
ever did is a, uh, a real test for writers - some people just can't do it at all, or
maybe they just say that um they've never done anything wrong, but in
most- most... I tend to believe that most of us are- are both saints and
sinners at the same time, that we are angels and demons, and, uh, the most
heroic of us have done shameful things, and the most craven, cowardly of us
have done heroic things. And, y'know, you do that self-examination, you put
that down on paper, and it is sort of a- a breakthrough, uh.
The other thing that's also a- a- a useful exercise, which I haven't done
myself, and I know other teachers at Clarion have done, I think it has
interesting results, is write- write a story from the viewpoint of someone that
you would <pause> hate. Y'know, I mean whatever your most profound and
deeply-held views are, uh, write it <pause> from the viewpoint of someone
who would- who would violate all your stuff, like, uh, if you are, um,
<pause> if you are right-wing, write a story from the viewpoint of a
Communist or, or something like that. If you are, uh, uh, a Jew, write
something from a concentration guard, and try to make that person human
and not a caricature. Uh, that's... that's a- somewhat difficult exercise, but
again it's a good one, I think, for building empathy and for trying to
understand the other people. I mean, when I write my characters, uh, I-
especially viewpoint characters, I really try to get inside their skin, and some
of my viewpoint characters are fairly creepy and unpleasant people, and yet I
identify with them. When I'm writing a Theon Greyjoy chapter, I- I,
y'know.... Theon, um, <pause> is... has done some appalling things in the
books, but he- he has his own reasons. In- In his own view, he's not a bad
guy, so I'm- I'm crawling inside his head; I'm seeing it all through his
viewpoint and kind of justifying the things that he does the way he does
them, uh, y'know <pause> I dunno, just some of my thoughts.
[44:45] [pointing to back of audience] In the back, there was someone back
there? [no reply; camera has panned to the audience and multiple members
of the audience have their hands up now] No? Okay, fine. Uh, yeah, right
there.
[44:48] Questioner 16: Hi. Um, you've mentioned Tolkien a l- quite a bit
here, um.
[44:52] GRRM: Mentioned what?
[44:53] Questioner 16: Tolkien.
[44:54] GRRM: Tolkien, yes.
[44:56] Questioner 16: Um, I know that he's- em, his- his writings about
writing Lord of the Rings, et cetera, he said that he was- that he- he would
write and be surprised at where the story led him. Have you ever found
yourself in that situation where you've written something and gone "I didn't
expect that to happen"?
[45:14] GRRM: Ye- well, to an extent, yeah. [drinks from glass of water]
Although. Um, I- I've often said there are... there're two kinds of writers; I
call them "architects" and "gardeners", uh, and I know both kinds. Y'know,
the most extreme version of the architect, uh, plans out the entire story
ahead of time, he outlines everything, and, like an architect building a
building, before he- before he even saws the first board, or- or starts to dig
the foundation, he knows exactly what the building will look like. He's built a
model, he's got drawings, he knows where the- where the wire is gonna run,
where the pipes are gonna run, exactly how high it's gonna be, exactly how
wide it's gonna be, y'know where- where all the electrical plugs are, and he
designs everything, and does blueprints, and then he builds it.
A- a gardener, y'know, just digs a hole in the ground, and he throws in a
seed, and he waters it with his blood [pause while audience laughs a little]
and uh, he knows a little about it; he knows whether it's a, y'know it's a rose
bush that he planted, or- or an oak tree, or a tomato plant, but, y'know, it
comes up and he fertilizes it, and he kind of shapes it, an- and so forth. So
he knows a few things, but a lot of it is a surprise to him. Ah I'm more of a
gardener than- than uh an architect, and I think Tolkien was also more of a
gardener than an architect.
Um, every writer is a combination of the two, in various degrees. There're
very few that are pure one way or the other. Um. I sometimes use the
analogy of a- of a journey, um. <pause> I- we will be taking a, a journey up
to um, to the west of Ireland after we're- we're done here, and we know
where we're going, uhhh, and y'know we- we have a borrowed map, and we
have we have a map and we have a GPS, so we know the principal roads
we'll be taking and the stops we'll make along the way. But we don't know
every, uh, twist and turn. We don't know where we're gonna run into wor-
wor- uh roadworks, or where we might pick up a hitchhiker, or [faint
audience laughter] y’know, where there'll be a particularly interesting uh,
restaurant that we'll stop at, and we'll have an interesting there. So, y'know,
that's my experience of writing these books. I know where I'm going, I know
the ultimate destination, I know the principal means by which I'm gonna get
there, and the places where I'm gonna have to turn and twist, but, uh, the
small details along the way, that's a bit of- that's the fun of the journey,
that's the discoveries I make along the way, and uh, what delights me, and
<pause> [?Doing it] makes it really fun to write, rather than just a, a
chore.... 'Cause I think with the architect, a pure architect, uh, gets all the
fun, the creativity is in the design phase, and then the building phase is just
tedium, 'cause you're just, y'know, you've done everything. You've made all
the decisions; now you're just <small pause> banging nails. [pointing to
audience] Yeah.
[48:15] Questioner 17: Um, [camera changes focus to questioner in second
row of audience] the most recent book, and throughout the series, religion?
[?that you got ?has become] more focused on-
[48:20] GRRM: Mm-hm. [Affirmative]
[48:21] Questioner 17: Is that going to continue, or is that just....
[?defeats the purpose, ? ?? the previous].
[48:25] GRRM: Well, religion has always been part of it but, [camera rotates
back to GRRM] uh, yes, I wanted to show the, uh, the response to some of
things that's going on, so... the- the religious <pause> revival, I guess, in
Westeros will continue to play a- play a role. We have a much more active,
uh, High Septon now than the previous two [someone in the audience
chuckles]... political tools, so, uh, he's gonna be a player for a while. [points
to audience] Yeah.
[48:50] Questioner 18: Uh, [camera refocuses to questioner about halfway
down the room] much earlier you were there, went into [?quite ?high] detail
about your favourite authors, and who inspired you, ah, but what would be,
eh, either books specifically or authors specifically that you just can't stand
reading their stuff. [audience laughs a little; camera changes back to
George]
[49:06] GRRM: That I can't stand what? [camera returns to GRRM and stays
on him while questioner speaks]
[49:07] Questioner 18: That you can't stand their, either, e- eh, the book
you just can't- have to put it down after a chapter 'cause it's just awful, or
what authors that just don't quite- [?suck you out].
[49:16] GRRM: Well I don't- I don't like to, uh, slag other authors,
necessarily. There're many books that I put down, just 'cause- I don't know
that they're necessarily awful, but they just don't capture me, y'know. I was
looking- when I was going on this trip I was pulling books from my shelves to
read on the airplane and all that, and I- I looked at my unread shelves,
y'know. "Gah I don't really need to buy another book, y'know.... [audience
laughs a little] For the rest of my life here, I could just finish reading all
these books." And then what really struck me was that how many books
were sitting on these shelves, not finished -- still on the unread shelves, had
bookmarks in 'em, which marking the place as far as I got before I put them
down, and- not necessarily I threw them out, but said "Aah, I'm never going
to read this crap again", but just like, "All right, I've read a few chapters, and
now it's the next day and I want to read something... eh, somehow I don't
feel compelled to pick up that one again. Somehow, I'll try a new one
instead."
So, I get all these partly-read books on my unread shelves. [unintelligible
from audience, cut off] I prefer to concentrate on the good authors, that-
which are many, than to, uh, than to sit around slagging off the bad authors.
[Pointing to an audience member standing partway back] Yeah, back there,
by the wall.
[50:28] Questioner 19: [camera focuses on questioner] Um, you had, uh,
you said that there was [?] regarding in the way you kill off characters,
personal [??]. As a writer myself, I've said that your books are a masterclass
in, "Oh my God, you can do that!" [entire audience laughs] Um, and, uh...
that may have actually been my point, I... [audience laughs more] I had a
question and now it's gone! Okay!
[50:53] GRRM: Okay.
[50:58] Questioner 19: It's just that- "masterclass" I guess was the point
there, so that's all. [sits down] [camera moves back to GRRM, who's pointing
into the audience]
[50:59] GRRM: <name redacted>. [camera turns to focus on this person]
[51:01] Questioner 20: Ice and Fire, um, is there anything that... uh, can
you tell us about a- anything that you sort of kicked yourself for putting in,
or- or conversely, thought later on "God, I'm glad I put that in 'cause now
I'm gonna use this here", or....? <pause>
[51:18] GRRM: Well, [camera returns to GRRM] <long pause> y'know um,
[sighs] that's the- coming too strong to say I kicked myself over putting in
anything. Um. <long pause> It's a very complex plot; I've thrown a lot of
balls in the air, and particularly in these last two books, as I've struggled
with them I sometimes wish I hadn't thrown quite so many balls in the air.
[audience laughs a little] Um. Would it have been so bad to have the- the
Five Kingdoms of Westeros? [audience laughs more loudly] Uh, did I really
need seven? Did I really need nine Free Cities, and uh, y'know, et cetera. Uh,
'cause all of these adds a- a- a little complexity.
Um, <pause> Y'know, years ago, uh, I was in a writers' workshop when I
was in Chicago with, uh, Gene Wolfe, and who was writing, uh, at the time
his, uh, one of his great magnum opuses, his uh, um, <pause> his uh
Severian books, the uh, the Book uh, of the New Sun. Um. A trilogy, to start
out, only it turned out to be four books. [faint laughter from audience] And
he, uh, was a editor, um, for "Plant Engineering" magazine. He was their
editor; that was his full-time job. All of his fiction he wrote uh, on the side.
Uh, he would get up in the- in the morning, he would get up while it was
early and he would- he would write - he's a very disciplined writer - he would
write a couple hours in the morning, uh, while he had his coffee before he
went off to work. And then he'd go off to the office and he'd edit "Plant
Engineering" all day, and then he'd come back at night and he'd write a
couple hours while his wife was cooking dinner, uh.
And so he- he managed to get in like two, three- three hours of writing every
uh, every workday, and then he would do more on weekends. And <long
pause> the <pause> the basic thing, of course, was that he- y'know, he- he
had a nice salary as "Plant Engineering" editor, and he did not depend, uh,
on his writing for, for um, uh, any money. It was like- it was extra money for
hi- for him and his family. So he finished the first book of- of uh, the- the
trilogy, The uh, The Shadow of the Torturer, and he just finished it and put it
on a shelf, and then he began the second book. And he finished that, and he
put it on the shelf. And he wrote all four books before he sent any one to his
agent or his editor, uh, and after he'd finished, y'know, it was supposed to be
a trilogy, and it became apparent at some point that it wasn't gonna be a
trilogy, so he added the fourth book.
So he had all four books written, and when all four books were written in first
draft, he went back and started revising the first draft into final draft form,
um, knowing now exactly where the series had ended and- and, y'know, he
took in- he took out things that he had put in that first book that he had
never paid off later, and he added things in that first book that- to tie in with
stuff that would eventually happen in the third and fourth books. And it was
a great way, uh, to write the series, and there are days where I- I wish that I
had had that freedom that Gene Wolfe had had, um, and was able to write
my series that way. Uh, in which case, of course, you guys would not have
read a word of it by this stage [audience laughs] because the first four books
are only sitting on the shelf as I try to finish the damn thing and then go
back and revise the book, and put in things, and take out things, uh, as the-
as the case may be. Um. <pause> But I'm not the editor of "Plant
Engineering" magazine; I have no salary, or any means of support except,
uh, my writing, so essentially to uh, to pay my mortgage and so forth, I had
to publish these books as I finish them. And then once I publish them, I
regard them as canon, and I sort of have to deal with the results.
So that's my only, biggest [?wish "have been"], nothing major, but, y'know I
wish I had the freedom to kind of revise things, and small things, and uh, et
cetera et cetera. And I think we're out of time, 'cause I see the uh, the
chairman here moving at me from the end of the aisle.... [audience laughs]
So uh, thank you all for coming. I know we have the uh, charity auction
coming up in- is that in this room, or?
[55:47] Chairman: No, the charity auction is in the other panel room. [??]
are gonna come into this room and do a bit of, eh, a demonstration of some
combat.
[55:56] GRRM: Okay. Thank you all for coming, everyone.
[audience applauds and camera pans across entire room]
Video ends at [56:06]