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10 il 12 3 14 15 16 ay 18 19 20 21 2 8B 25 SKINNER ~ CROSS 22 126 before the witness. He didn't really need to be shown. I its admission and identified. THE COURT: Are you moving -- MR. FEDER: Yes I did. I'm sorry, Judge, yes. I'm sorry. What's the exhibit number THE COUR: that you're —- MR. FEDER: It's 126. THE COURT: Is there objection? MR. ARTERBERRY: We object on grounds of relevancy, Your Honor. THE COURT: What is 126? May I see it please? Sustained. CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. FEDER: Q: Mr. Skinner, in your direct examination last week you had indicated that you had been arrested for possession of sone type of drugs in Boston, Massachusetts in 1989. Is that correct? Ar No. Q: all right. A: That's not correct. Q: all right. Were you arrested in the Boston metropolitan area in 1989 for possession of marijuana? A: No, no. ASW, Ine. aw ek wn SKINNER - CROSS 23 Q: You were not? Ar No. Q: Did you testify to that? A: I don't know, I haven't said that I was. Q: Did you testify that you were arrested for something in the Boston, Massachusetts area in 1939? Ar No. Q: I'm sorry. Was the year wrong? Were you talking about "87? A: That's correct. Q: I'm sorry. And that was - you were charged with possession of marijuana is it? A: I never saw the charges. I was charged with I believe my lawyer told me possession not exceeding - it was some sort of the least amount of charges for that. I don't know what it was exactly. Q: Was it marijuana or some other type of drug? A: It was supposed to be marijuana. Q: Okay. 7 A: There was no substance though. All right. And you indicated that this was reduced to a lesser charge without a finding and dismissed in 90 days. Is that right? That's correct. All right. Was that by agreement between yours ASWP, Ine. Bow ow aw 10 ul 12 B 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 2 SKINNER - CROSS 24 the Prosecutor's Office in Boston? A: I have no idea. My attorney took care of all of it. Q: Did you - you didn't have to go in front of a judge, and say I agree to that? A: Only when I either plead not guilty or guilty, and I plead not guilty, and it was settled. I never went back to the court ever, never signed anything after that point or anything. Q: All right. And you indicated that you had been charged with some kind of possession charge and some kind of currency charge. Is that right? A: I don't know that - I never saw the charges, so I don't know. I'm sorry. I just don't know what the charges were. All I know there was no felony. I wasn't convicted of anything, nor did I plea out to a felony. Q: Mr. Skinner, I'm looking at a FBI report dated February 1, 1990, and in there it appears that you told Mr. Walker at least that several years previous you'd been arrested in Boston, Massachusetts area on a narcotics charge and currency violation. Is that what your understanding was of what you were charged with? A: Well I'm not for sure. So I mean I just told him what I thought the situation was. They seized some currency, but the currency had to be returned. Q: All right. And how much currency was that? SKINNER - CROSS 25 OSS 10 BT 2 13 14 1s 16 a7 18 19 20 2 22 25 Ai 18,000 something dollars. Q: in cash? A: In cash. Q: And that was in 1987? Ar 1987. Q: And that was taken from your person when you were arrested? A: That's correct. Q: And what was your occupation in 1987? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: What was the source of the $18,000? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: Did you have marijuana in your possession in 1987? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, object on grounds of relevancy. THE COURT: I think these are matters that were gone into last week. I tried to give you considerable latitude in an era where it's questionable relevance. I'11] allow you a little bit more latitude here, but I'11 overrule the objection at this point. THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge, they were unable to obtain any sort of a sample that could be sent to a laboratory. BY MR. FEDER: Q: So -- ASW, tne, ee ee SKINNER - CROSS 26 A: They had - their evidence couldn't be verified, because there wasn't enough or whatever. I don't know what the situation was. Q: So it wasn't a sufficient amount for them to test. Is that what you think? A: I don't know if there was an amount there, so I don't know anything about it, but I know that they said they couldn't test it. There was something about the prosecutor said there's no evidence here. Q: Was that - whatever this amount was, was that something that they found on your person, Mr. Skinner? A: No they did not. Q: Did they find it within your luggage or something? Ai I really don't know, and also I'm pleading the Fifth. Okay. Were you using marijuana in 1987? A: No. Mr. Skinner, you've indicated that you contacted the Federal Bureau of Investigation in Tulsa sgme time in late May of 1984. Is that correct? A: Basically correct, yes. Q: All right. And once you contacted them and arranged with then to begin tape recording conversations, in essence you were no longer actively attempting to do anyth: to Tracon International or Sam Merit. Is that correct? A: I don't know that I was ever in the interest of de. gyre, wok wow ee) 10 ul 12 1B 14 16 a7 18 19 SKINNER - CROSS 27 anything to benefit of Tracon or Sam Merit. Q: All right. A: So I can't say yes or no. Q: Let me put it in more simpler terms. once you agreed with the Federal Bureau of Investigation to begin tape recording conversations, you were not going to lend money. Correct? A: That's correct. @: You were not going to set up a computer systen. A: I don't know that. No, I honestly say I don't know that, because there was a possibility that it could have been set up if I'd a been paid for it. Q: Paid by who, the Federal Bureau of Investigation or -- A: Sam Merit or Tracon. Q: I see. Fair to say once you started working for the Federal Bureau you weren't going to make any brochures for him either. Right? © A: I don't believe I was working for the Federal Bureau. And second of all, if I would have beén paid for it I would have made the brochures had it been legal. Q: You didn't of course do any of these things. Right? A: Wo. You've indicated that as a result of your arrest in the pending charges in New Jersey, that you have received what you believe are promises that the king pen charge against SKINNER ~ CROSS 28 you, the mandatory life sentence charge, is going to be dismissed. Is that right? As I understand that's the case. Q: All right. And you've also indicated that you are presently helping or trying to help a federal law enforcement agency in another state in hopes that that also will be brought to the attention of the prosecutors, and that that will help you. Right? : Your Honor, I'm going to object. MR. ARTERBERR' I think these questions were asked and answered last week extensively. THE COURT: They were and it seems like you're seeking to summarize them. If it's a predicate to another question -- MR. FEDER: That's what I'm trying to do, Judge. THE COURT: Fine. Overruled. BY MR. FEDER: Q: You may answer, sir. Ar Yes. — Q: But you've indicated there's nothing in writing. Correct? A: Nor are there any oral agreements at this point, nothing in writing nor oral. And last week you took the - you asserted your Fi. Amendment right not to incriminate yourself to a variety of ASWE, Ine. eo ce) 10 ry 12 13 14 15 16 wv 18 19 2 22 23 w 25 SKINNER - CROSS 29 questions that I asked you, including locations of homes that you may own or control, and ownership of real estate. Is that correct? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, once again we seem to have summary by the -- THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. FEDER: Q: And is it your testimony that you are not expecting anything for your testimony here? A: I have no agreement nor do I have any implied agreement, nor do I believe that there's any remote - I was subpoenaed. This thing existed before the New Jersey problem. Q: I have nothing further. THE COURT: Mr. Bickart? MR. BICKART: If I may have one moment, Your Honor. CROSS EXAMINATION BY MR. BICKART: Q: Mr. Skinner, my name is Allen Bickart. I represent Oded Benary. I would like, if you would be so kind, as to indulge me and take a moment and review some documents very briefly if you could. Do you think you could scan -- A: Certainly. Q: -- them very briefly if the clerk handed them to you? i They're all dated. The date has been circled in the lower | left hand corner. | ASW, Inc SOE Go) te vay 10 u 12 13 14 15 16 W 18 19 21 SKINNER - CROSS 43 Morning Mr. Skinner. A: Good morning. My name is Richard Juarez. I'm Ms Wilson's attorney. Mr. Skinner, the time that you contacted the FBI, Mr. McLean regarding Tracon, was that the first time you had ever communicated with Mr. McLean? I don't believe so. Q: You'd had other contacts with him? A: Yes, I'll explain that a little further. It was not unusual for different members of law enforcement to like come over to our house and have dinner and such. So it - in those kind of contacts and, you know, contactual environment. Q: So you knew Mr. McLean as a social -- A: I wouldn't say necessarily social. I just knew him, you know, not as business either, but I mean I wasn't that familiar with him, but -- Q: You had had other business contacts with him? A: I'm trying - there is a potential that prior to the Sam Merit situation - I'd have to order something out in my head, that there was contact that I had with Mr. McLean in an official capacity. Q: Was that regarding a legal capacity? A: Yes, involving another person. Q: Did any of that have anything to do with you, your personal affairs or business affairs? ee 10 u 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 SKINNER ~ CROSS 44 Do you want me to describe the situati @: Sure. A: Okay. ‘There was a person who was a business associate of mine who had a tremendous number of investors from all over the I guess world, and I did many financial - I would help her out. She would come to me and hand ne many personal checks from all over the world, and cashier checks, and ask me to make the funds immediately available to her. And at first it was just a favor, and then she offered me a certain amount of money to do this. And as a result of that, because of very close tracking, I realized that she was running quite a large pyramid scheme, and I turned over possibly in the early part of 1984 quite a bit of documentation and contracts and cashier's checks from all over the place. Q: Was that to Mr. McLean -- A: Yes it was. Q: -- U.S. agent? A: That's correct. Q: Was there anything that resulted from that? ~ A: Yes. She pleaded guilty to -- Q: Well there was a criminal investigation -~ A: That's correct and -- Q: -- and criminal charges brought against her? A: Some years later and she -- Q: You were never asked to testify in that? ASWP, Ine an awe 10 u 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 i9 20 2 2 25 SKINNER - CROSS 45 A: They said that there was a potential that I would need to testify, but I never nad to testify. Q: Was that paéticular case ongoing at the time that you contacted McLean about Mr. Merit and Tracon? A: Other than me turning over the documentation, and I can't remember the dates, there was nothing active. The FBI was not interested in it at all. Qi Were you ever a target of the investigation of the FBr regarding your business associate? A: You mean this particular situation? Q: Yes. A: No, there was no target at all. I was nothing. The FBI didn't even see anything that was illegal about the information I gave then. Wasn't until two years later that they were able to put the puzzle together. And I had nothing to do with the - there was - at no point was there any indication or anyone saying anything to me about an illegal activity. Q: When you went to the Tracon offices in Phoenix, you were working with the FBI on that other case you just described? A: No, because they completely - I just turned over documents to them, and they were uninterested in them. Q: Was that the only prior legal association you had with McLean other than Tracon? A: That's correct. I would say that that's pretty - that's Row ee aan SKINNER - CROSS 50 A: No I did not. Q: Was that the first time? : I never took an engineer with me. Q: Each time you visited you went by yourself? A: No. The second time I travelled with my step-father. Q: I thought - there was a conversation though about possibly getting an associate of yours who was an engineer to set up a computer system for the firm. A: He was going to - he had just got out of the university, and he was going to go out there and deal with - they had requested someone that would deal with their security problem and such. Q: Was that your suggestion, or how did the subject of computerizing the company come about? Do you recall? A: My suggestion about the computer or the engineer? Q: Are they interrelated or are they different? A: Well I see them as different. @: oxy. — A: The computer - they had an office problem that was fairly significant, and they weren't tracking anything properly, and I don't know who asked who or what. I'm not for sure. I think Sam knew that I was in the computer business, because he had seen some of my computers and termina’ MR. FEDER: Object as to what Sam knew, whatever it ASHP, ne, 10 cay 2 13 4 15 16 WW 18 SKINNER - CROSS 51 is. Speculation, nonresponsive to the question. THE COURT: I'11 grant the motion to strike the last portion of the testimony. It may be stricken. The jury is instructed to disregard it. BY MR. JUAREZ: @: Your second trip to Phoenix, you indicated your father accompanied you. A: My step-father, yes. Q: Your step-father, and he's an agent for the IRS? A: At the time he was. Q: But you also testified that that second trip you had already contacted the FBI? Ar Yes. And you had already agreed to act to do certain things that they wanted you to do in investigating Tracon. Is that correct? A: Yes. Again I've answered this question many times. But if they asked me something and it was something I could do, and I had the time I would do it. Q: And that second trip that you arranged to go back to Phoenix then, that was more for the benefit of the FBI than yourself. Would that be fair? A: I'd say that's correct. Q: Was your father-in-law also involved in that? : He was - I don't know if it was on the benefit of ASWP, ine. ees 10 ul 12 13 14 15 16 a 18 19 20 SKINNER - CROSS Dwayne Miller, defendant." Do you see that? Ar Yes. Q: And is that the indictment that you have indicated you are presently charged in? A: I've never seen this in my life. Q: You've never seen that in your life. Is that your name, Gordon Todd Skinner? A: That's correct. Q: Have you ever been known by the name of Terrence Finnigan? G.T. Finnigan, Gerard Terrence Finnigan. Q: Is that your - is that a legal name? Ar No. Q: That's just a name that you've used elsewhere in some of your transactions. A: I'm not answering that. Q: Excuse me? Ar I'm not going to answer that. Q: Why not? A: I have a pending trial. So I'm pleading the Fifth on that. Q: You're taking the Fifth Amendment. A: That's correct. Q: Is that correct? ASW, tne. aw 10 ry 12 13 14 16 7 18 19 20 2 2 25 SKINNER - CROSS 76 A: Uh huh. Q: So the indication - you're telling me that you are refusing to answer my question. Is that correct? A: Well if I understand my constitutional rights, I have the right to refuse it, yes. Q: Well you didn't refuse to answer any of the questions that the prosecutor gave you. A: He didn't ask that specific question. Q: I see. Is it your intention to take the Fifth Amendment on matters that I'm going to ask you about these charges? Ar It depends on which question. Q: Okay. Well let's go to the next one. when did you first start using the name Terrence Finnigan? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: All right. Have you ever used that name in Arizona? A: Plead the Fifth. Q: Have you used that name in oklahoma? A: Plead the Fifth. Q: Ever used that name in New Jersey? A: Plead the Fifth. MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I'm going to object to a continued line of interrogation. I think it's clear that the area that counsel's delving into is going to be the subject of this assertion. Don't think it serves any purpose -~ ASMP, Ine, Ce 10 u 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 & RS BR SKINNER ~ CROSS 7 THE COURT: Well I can't tell that. He's gone through four states which has some relevance. I'm not sure that there's any other that I could find would. overruled. THE WITNESS: I'm going to question as to the accuracy of this document. BY MR. FEDER: Q: You do? A: Yes. Q: Why's that A: This has a date July term 1988. Q: No. It has a July term of the grand jury. A: In 1988? Q: Yes sir. A: Now this is - my discovery package was given to me. I've never seen anything like this. These dates don't correspond. Certain things on this I've never seen before. Q: Really? Ar Yes. I'm not saying that they're not accurate, but I've never seen any of this. : Q: Well I'l] tell you what, Mr. Skinner, why don't you read the first count to the jury, and you tell me if that's the correct count that you've seen on a previous document? Ar ®The grand jurors of the State of New Jersey for the County -" THE COURT: Excuse me. This is exhibit not in awe wn 10 u 12 13 4 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 2 SKINNER ~ CROSS 82 Q: $250,000? A: That's correct. Q: And was that a cash bond, sir, or through a bondsman? A: No bondsman. Q: So you posted $250,000 in cash? A: New Jersey has a special situation which I was successful, and I was able to get $25,000 placed up, and then signed surety for the rest, and then I had to place another $1,000 bail on top of that. Q: When you say signed surety, what do you mean? In other words you have to post -~ A: I signed it with the State. It's with the State, not with the bail bondsman. : So in other words, you give them $25,000 in cash which is nonrefundable. Is that right? No, It's refundable with some sort of minor deduction out of it. I don't know what the rules are. Q: And then you promise that if you fail to appear that they have access to collateral for the remaining 120 - or I'm sorry - $225,000? A: That's correct. @: And was that from your money, sir, that you posted the $25,000? A: I don't know how to answer that. So I want to - I don't know how to answer that, and it could be important to some 28 SKINNER ~ CROSS 85 Q: You have no idea. A: I know nothing about any of these locations. Q: I see. When you got arrested on this charge, had you ever been in New Jersey before? Ar Yes. Q: Did you go there frequently? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: Do you believe that answering whether -- A: I plead the Fifth. Well I'm going to ask you a question. You can do that. You plead - you believe that answering if you've ever been in New Jersey before in some way jeopardizes you -- Yes. Q: You were in fact in New Jersey in Cherry Hill, Camden county on or about January 26th, 1989, weren't you? A: Correct. Q: Were you with anybody else at that time? A: Plead the Fifth. . Q: So you think that whoever you might have been with on January 26th, 1989, that that would somehow jeopardize you in regard to your self incrimination rights? A: Plead the Fifth. Yes, if I have to answer that. Am I required when he comes back, do I have to answer yes or no or could -- You may claim your rights against self ASWP, Ine. ee ee 10 u 12 B 14 15 16 Ww 18, 19 20 2 SKINNER - CROSS 88 financier or manager or all four. Correct? Ar That's what it says. Q: All right. And let me ask you a question. Was any of the $25,000 that you posted as your bond, was that involved with the fruits from Count number Iv? : I plead the Fifth. Q: And was any of the property that you posted for the 250,000 A: I plead the Fifth. a: $50,000 ~~ A: TI plead the Fifth. Q: All right. And again you believe that those answers night incriminate you? A: Correct. Q: Okay. And what is the penalty, if you know sir, maximun penalty and minimum penalty for a conviction in regard to Count number IV? A: Twenty-five years minimum, life maximum. JUROR: Your Honor, we can't read that from here. I don't know - are we supposed to? THE COURT: Well I suppose he would like to memorialize it. Whether he wants you to be able to see it is up to Mr. Feder. MR. FEDER: Are you telling me you can’t read my writing, or it's just not clear? 10 u 2 13 14 1s 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 2B SKINNER - CROSS 90 possession of narcotics, possession with intent to distribute narcotics, et cetera. Is that correct? It says that. Q: All right. And are you aware of the penalty for that, sir, both as to -- A: I have no idea. Q: All right, So Count IV is the main one, because it can't be much worse than that. Right? A: I just happen to know what the term is for Count Iv. That's it. Q: Do you know a person named William Richard Wynn? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: Were you in the state of New Jersey, city of Woodbury, township of Cherry Hill between the dates of January 10, 1989 and January 26th? A: I don't know on that particular question. Q: You don't know if that's true, or you don't know if you're going to answer? A: Don't know if that's true. Q: Well were you there on the 25th? A: No. I also would like to plead the Fifth on all these questions. Q: Then you should, sir. oi é A: No, but that wasn't way, but I'm going to answer it that way now. ASW, Inc. ten erg wan eww oo 10 i 12 1B 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 SKINNER - CROSS live in Tulsa. That's where I receive my Q: All right. Where do you - when you're not here testifying in t do you have a residence in Tulsa, or do you have a residence elsewhere or several residences where you stay? A: I have an address in Tulsa. : That you rece ir mail at, sir. vay 2 Yes, and then I spend the night when I'm there in Tulse. All right. Where else do you have premises that you -- A: Q: A: I plead the Fifth. Qs eve just saying where it is you have So you be property - A: I plead the Fifth. Q: You have properties? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: Okay. Do you own any property -- A: I plead the Fifth. Q: All right. Do you rent any -- A: I plead the Fifth. Q: And you believe that just saying where you might have a home -~ A: Yes. Q: Now since January of 1989 you indicated that you were in jail for about ten months - right - ten, 11 months? A: Ten, ten and a half, something like that. Romeo en 10 u 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 SKINNER - CROSS 97 Q: So that means that you would have been let out December Novenber of 19 -~ A: December, 1989. Q: And your terms of release, did they allow you to travel? A: Yes they do. Q: Where do they allow you to travel to? A: I have no restrictions on travel. Q: And sir,since that time have you resided strictly in Tulsa? : I plead the Fifth. And since that -- MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I'm going to object to questions along this line. I think the Court may be aware of the basis of the objection. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. FEDER: Q: Between - well strike that. From the time that you were arrested, sir, have you till the present time and up to the present time, have you had contact with a law enforcement agency of the Federal Government with regard to your desire to help them? A: Yes. Q: And that is a law enforcement agency. Correct? Yes. Q: And you - is it true that you contacted then? i ASW, Ine. 5 Cw ao 10 nu 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 8 g don't think there's anything. inappropriate about putting the hed the federal question to authorities or they approached him. I don't know that if any examination into the details of that is appropriate, but I for the defense to find out. think fai the jury. MR. FEDER: I guess I'd like to make a request. That is whether or not this person has a nadis number, and whether or not there is a current file in regard to other cooperation that this man may have given to the DEA or any other federal or state agency in the past. It might be relevant to a continuing pattern, maybe even at the time of the 1984 matter or before with regard to this gentleman. There's a real question here whether or not he was a Government agent at the time of these alleged conversations. THE COURT: What's the basis for that statement? MR. FEDER: Judge, you don't just know enough to put a tape recorder on, and to call your secretary and get the time and date on it so it's properly atithenticated by just being a 19 year old, in Tulsa, Oklahoma. And I will tell you that it's my understanding that this man's step- father is a federal agent. So they obviously know - he obviously was aware of how to do certain things, and I believe that at least there is some type of may have other prior experience with drug enforcement or een an eon 10 L 2 LB 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 102 other people. Even, Your Honor, were not an inference, that is a legitimate request pi to Brady and its progeny in regard to this man's continuing cooperation and benefits fron the government over a long period. THE COURT: There is no such inference, and I thi any reasonable person could draw from a 19 year old who calls the FBI and thereafter undertakes the course of conduct indicated, and this also occurred in 1984. We're talking about events that are occurring now, 1989, 1990. However, if the Governnent has a response to whether they're aware of any other instances where the witness has in the past or is now cooperating, you should disclose that. MR. ARTERBERRY: I don't know of any, Your Honor I don't think the witness has made us aware of any MR. FEDER: When you - do you understand what I mean - do you understand what a nadis number is? THE COURT: Well but it won't affect it. MR. FEDER: Nadis numbers - I believe if I understand, is a number that informants or cooperators with the Drug Enforcement Administration get when they cooperate with them in other cases or are suspects in drug investigations, and you receive an identification number like anybody else. They can easily check, they by the Government don Obviously I don't have access to it, in regard to both a natis number and any other FBI number or wea am aw 10 1 2 B 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 RD & other number used in other law enforcement, agencies with regard to this man's cooperation or suspect in events criminal, from I think it's fair to say from 1983 to the present. (Yvonne Wilson leaves the courtroom) THE COURT: Are you aware of any such number? MR. ARTERBERRY: I am not, Your Honor, but I haven't made any inquiry. We have t! record. In terms of relevance, I don't think counsel has established any relevance that such information would have. He's been given an opportunity to inquire into this individual's record. What he's doing in terms of cooperation, I think he's had ample opportunity to establish bias. I don't - I see the possibility that this becomes a nini trial on this witness. I don't know that there's any end to the information that counsel could request on this person. We will do what the Court requires us to do, but I don't see that there's any relevance to any further inquiries about this individual. His record discloses no criminal convictions. The law provides that clearly it is Brady. I think that beyond that we get into an area where I don't know that there is any limit to requests that could be made for information on anybody. THE COURT: I'd ask that the Government find out if ASWR, Ine 10 ul 12 2B 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 SKINNER - CROSS aun CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed) Mr. skinner, I believe the question that was before you was that you've indicated that you - you've indicated that there is presently cooperation between yourself and the - some law enforcement agency. Is that right? A: Correct. Q: All right. And that is a federal law enforcement agency. Correct? A: Correct. Q: All right. And did your contact with this federal law enforcement agency occur while you were in jail, or when you were able to obtain bail? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel is once again going beyond the limits set by the Court. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. FEDER: I beg the Court's pardon. May I be heard again? THE COURT: We've been heard enough.~ I understand the position of all the parties. I've made a ruling. BY MR. FEDER: Q: Did you contact the federal law enforcement agency, sir, or did they contact you? A: They contacted me. Q: And did they contact you when you were in jail, or when ASWP, Inc. wok win ew aa 10 il 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 22 SKINNER - CROSS 122 you were already out? MR. ARTERBERRY: , I'm going to object. t's limits. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. FEDER: With all due respect, Judge, this again goes I believe to bias of whether or not who -- THE COURT: I've set the limits, Mr. Feder. I've made a ruling on the objection that was raised. Your record is protected. BY MR. FEDER: Q: Mr. Skinner, was the person - the federal law enforcement officer that contacted you a person known to you at that time? MR. ARTERBERRY: Objection, Your Honor, same basis. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. FEDER: Q: Your step-father, Gary McGreeny, is he -- A: That's his name. Q: --+ is he a federal law enforcement offider or was he? A: He's no longer. He was. Q: All right. And what agency was he with, sir? A: The IRS. Q: And what capacity did he work with IRS? A: Criminal agent. @: All right. and when you say criminal agent, what do you ee a Am ew 10 uw 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 SKINNER ~ CROSS 113 mean? A: Just criminal agent. He took care of criminal instead of civil side of IRS problens. Q: He was a criminal investigator, sir. correct? A: Yes. Q: All right. and when did he stop being that? A: I don't know, some time in the last three or four months. I'm not for sure of that date. Q: Was he a IRS criminal investigator in 1984? Ar Yes. Q: Was he - why don't you give me the time period that you know ~~ A: Well I think he started working with the Government in like '75 or something, but I' not for sure of this. Q: All right. and he is -- A: He was not my step-father at the time, so I don't have a good historical reference of what year he was what, you see. Q: When - all right. Was the person that contacted you from the federal law enforcement agency acquainted with your father - your step-father? MR. ARTERBERRY: Objection, same basis. THE COURT: Sustained. BY MR. FEDE! Q: And Mr. Skinner, this cooperation, you were contacted by the federal law enforcement people. Correct? SKINNER - CROSS 114 1] Az Correct. 2] Q: All right. And if somebody were to assert that it wes 3] you that contacted them, would they be incorrect? 4] A: I don't know. I mean I don't know how to answer that, 5{ so -- 6} Q: Well either yes or no. 7| A: They contacted me. So that's as far as I can go. 8|{ Q: All right. So they just found you without your taking 9] any steps to solicit them. Is that right? 10] A: These questions are getting - it's complicated. I don't 1] know the reason, and I'm not prepared to answer that 12] question, ‘cause I don't understand - I answered the question 13] truthfully the first time to you. Any further than that I 14] can't say. 15] Q: Well when you say -- 16 MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel has 17] had an answer to that question. 18 THE COURT: He has. Sustained. 19 MR. FEDER: Judge, again with all due respect, that 20] is a new question. It has not been answered, and it goes to 21) this man's first of all knowledge as to who to contact, but 22] second of all whether or not it's connected to his familial 23] relationship. “ THE COURT: I have ruled on the matter. Objection 25| sustained. ASW, Ine. SKINNER - CROSS 115 BY MR. FEDER: Q: And this cooperation, sir, how long has the cooperation been going on. MR. ARTERBERRY: Objection, Your Honor, same basis. THE COURT: Overruled. BY MR. FEDER: Q: You may answer, sir. A: Please reask the question in a little more specific terms. You're asking - please ask the question again. Q: Certainly. How long have you been cooperating with the federal law enforcement person, agency that you have previously indicated contacted you? Six months. I'm not for sure, and I'm really not prepared to answer these questions like this. Q: Well when you say you're not -~ I'm just not prepared to answer these questions. I'm - this is getting back to the same problem. Q: The problem of that you -- A: I don't have counsél here, sir. Q: Well sir, it's been offered to you. If you with to have counsel, do you want counsel? A: Then I'l] have to bring - THE COURT: Counsel, ask questions. Don't make statements. MR. FEDER: May I inguire of the witness wh ASW, ne ee RBBB ES SBURR EER ES 25 SKINNER ~ CROSS 117 you'd been cooperating with the federal law enforcement. office that you've talked about, and you indicated six months. Is that correct? A: A few months would be a better way of answering that. Q: Okay. And is this the only federal law enforcement agency that you've ever cooperated with? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I'm going to object. We're once again getting beyond the limits. THE COURT: I'm not sure that that was a limit I placed. Overruled. THE WITNESS: Please ask your question again. BY MR. FEDER: Q: I said have you ever cooperated with another - and I'l] include federal or state law enforcement agency before as far as your cooperation with them? A: Yes. Q: And when was that, sir, the last time before the present time? - MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, is the Court going to allow in detail examination into this area? THE COURT: No, but the similar sorts of questions put with respect to the one that Mr. Feder inquired about earlier. BY MR. FEDE! Q: You may answer, sir. ASW, Ine. ROE Oot ey onan 10 1 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 2 B 24 SKINNER - CROSS aie A: Four months prior to this. Q: Let me get the time frames correct. For the last six or less months you have been -- A: No, for the last few months. Q: That's what I said, six or less -~ A: Okay. Q: -- months you've been cooperating with one particular federal law enforcement agency. Right? A: Correct. Q: And then four months prior to your - to the beginning of this present cooperation, you were cooperating with another law enforcement agency on another matter? A: I was cooperating with a federal agency. Q: All right. The same one or a different one? A: The same one. Q: All right. on a different investigation, if you will? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, we're going into the limits or into the area that I think reaches the Court's limits in this inquiry. THE COURT: Well it may, but I think he has a right to know whether we're talking about the same thing or a different thing. overruled. BY MR. FEDER: Q: You may answer, sir. A: The items were different. i ASW, In RO er ees 10 i 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 Q: SKINNER - CROSS 119 Were the peopie different? ARTERBERRY: Going to object, Your Honor. I think he has his answer there. you THE COURT: Sustained. MR. FEDER: And how long did that cooperation last? Two months. All right. And that would have been during the time that were in jail in New Jersey on the present charges. Is that right? Q: correct. And prior to that occasion were you ever a cooperating witness again with a federal, state or local law enforcement agent? Ar Yes. Q: And when was that? A: Going back a number of years. Q: How many years? Ar '83. : Q: 1983? A: Uh huh. Q: And is that’ cooperation over from the 1983 case? A: Yes. Q: And what did that concern, s A: I can't answer that. ASWA, Ine, ee ee) 10 u 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 2 b 25 SKINNER - CROSS 120 Q: All right. : I could have problems to my defense. So I can't answer any of these. These are ~~ Q: Problens to your defense in the pending -- st think about A: Yeah, yeah. I got to think. Let me j this. The case is over. The case is over that it was involved with. Q: Well then -- Az In 1983 I believe the case was over. Q: All right. And what was the subject matter of that investigation? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I'm going to object. I think what's - we're getting close, at least we're narrowing down what could be used to delve into other cooperation. I think that may cross that line, Your Honor. THE COURT: Well I'm not sure that it does at this point. I'll overrule that particular objection. BY MR. FEDER: Q: All right. A: I'd like to redefine the time. 1984, '85 is a better time for this particular thing. And your question is what was it concerning? Q: Yes. A: It concerned multiple Government federal agencies. Q: What was the subject matter? ASWP, Ine. w Ces 10 ul 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 B 25 SKINNER - CROSS a2. complicated situation. It involved a man was laundering money. Were you what's called an undercover agent for then? No I was not. All right. What was your role? A: I happened to have seen - I had cashier's checks that came to me, and as a matter of course I spoke to the Federal Government, and let them know what the situation was, and it turned out to be information that was used to track down funds of someone that was laundering money Q: Were you a witness in a trial? A: No, never was a witness in this trial. Q: Were you a suspect? A: No, not at all. Q: No. okay. And did you receive any -- A: Nothing. I received no compensation Q: Sir -- A: Okay, go ahead. Q: -- let's set.some rules here. I'm going to ask you some questions I hope, and I'd appreciate it if you'd try to answer -— THE COURT: Mr. Feder, I'll set the rules. WR. FEDER: All right. THE COURT: Ask the question. | ASWP, Ine ee 10 u 12 B 4 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 2 SKINNER - CROSS 222 be instructed to allow me to finish my questions, ana I will allow hin to finish my (sic) answer. Es aa ill he se just wail THE COURT: you the question. You have a tendency to try to figure out what the questions are. BY MR. FEDER: Q: The question was did you receive any benefit, money, et cetera from the cooperation in 1984 and 1985? A: No. Q: So you just did that voluntarily. Is that right? A: Yes. Q: All right. And this cooperation that you have talked about, we'll call it number two, that you did during your time while you were in jail before you were able to raise the cash to get out on this present charge, did you receive anything for that? A: I was supposed to, but I haven't. I don't know if I've received it yet. Q: And that would be a consideration in regard to the pending serious drug offenses that face you. Correct? A: The kingpin charge was supposed to have been dropped. I don't know if it technically has been dropped at this point. Q: Just for that one thing that you did while you were in jail. Right? i Ai That's correct. 10 ul 13 14 16 7 18 19 2 8 SKINNER ~ CROSS 123 Q: All right. And this present cooperation nat you've at you expect consideration for would expect consideration, yes. Q: Major consideration? : No, I don't expect that. Q: No. But if the kingpin is going to already be dropped, what are they going to do, drop a couple of other chazges? A: I have no idea. There's no agreement. Q: So it's fair to say that you approached ~ strike that. This second coop - the cooperation that occurred while you were in jail, did you approach by calling or having somebody else contact the agency, or did they contact you? A: They contacted me. @: All right. So they just came - somebody showed up at the jail one day and wanted to talk to you? A: I don't know - no. That's - I was contacted through my lawyers of the situation that they wanted to talk to me. Q: All right. And doing that - you know — in regard to your giving them cooperation, nothing in writing? A: Yes, there was nothing in writing with the Federal Government agency. Q: So just kind of an implicit agreement. You understand what implicit means, don't you? A: Yes, I understand what implicit means. SKINNER - CROSS aaa Q: All right. Just sort of a verbal gentleman's agreement if you will, that if you help them they'll help you. Right? eement really with A: See, I did not have an ag: Government, because the Federal Government did not have me in jail, nor did the Federal Government have any charges against me. So I do not understand the intricacies of how the Federal Government works with State Government. So I can't answer the question. Q: Okay. Let me try it again. Your under - the second cooperation, the one while you were in jail, that involves a federal law enforcement agency. Right? 1 That's correct. Q: All right. And your understanding is or was or still is that your cooperation with the Federal Government will cause a state or county government to drop a kingpin prosecution against you. A: I have no agreement at all with the Federal Government like that. Q: Did you have an agreement with the State Government? A: That's correct. Q: All right. So as a result of being contacted by the federal law enforcement agency, the State prosecutor came to visit you too? New Jersey doesn't work like normal states, and it was actually the detectives that came to see me. ASW, Inc 10 1 SKINNER - CROSS x Q: All right. So I'm assuming thet that means that federal | te law enforcement agents cane the same ones that e the state peop responsible for your being indicted in New Jersey? A: I believe, but I'm not for sure of that. I believe they're the same. Q: And they just kind of came to you, and asked for you - or at least through your law; your lawyer, and to see if you might be able to help them Right? A: They had been wanting my cooperation from the first day they had arrested me. Q: And your understanding based on these conversations, that the kingpin, Count IV statute - charge might be dismissed Right? A: Yes, It should have been dismissed by now, but I don't know if it actually has been at this point. Q: And the present cooperation that you have, sir, with another federal law enforcement agency, has*anybody from the State, the New Jersey lawsuit, have they also come to vis you in regard to that investigation? There are problems with the negotiations there. So that's why I say I have no ~ there's no agreement. There's nothing currently that gives me any sort of consideration other than I hope that there's some consideration ASW, Inc SKINNER - CROSS 130 can designate Iwill say is that in regard to your cooperation. If he says end it there. If he says no, then I go further. COURT: Well I think I need to have a better 3 be 5 understanding. If it gets to the point where the witness is unsure, I'll let it go where it seems to be part of his concern, I might have to excuse the jury again, but at this point I don't know whether we're talking about what in fact are expenses. But if there's any possibility that it's something else, that really is a benefit that he @isguising it as his expenses, then I think you're entitled to get into that. MR. ARTERBERRY: Mr. Walker handed me a note as we were coming up here. He made inquiry about, I think what's referred to as the nadis number. And he told me that the only - this only indicates a record of federal drug related activity. This number indicates a minor involvement, no indication of source. I'1l try to verify whether there's anything beyond that, but -- . THE COURT: What that means. (End side bar conference) BY MR. FEDER: Q: I believe the question before you, sir, was first of all was it the federal or state authorities who paid your expenses. ASW, ne 10 u R 13 4 1s 16 7 18 19 20 SKINNER - CROSS si That was not your question. Your question was prosecutors. So ~~ Q! Well let iné make it that question then A: Okay. Yes. Q: Which? A: The second question that - the one authorities, yes. Q: Which, state or federal? Ar Federal authorities Q: Paid. A: That's correct. Q: All right. And the expenses that they paid, sir, did they have - do those expenses relate - or are they expenses of your working with this federal agency or other expenses? A: I don't understand. What do you mean by working with? Q: Your cooperation with then + You mean was I being paid? Q: No sir. You've indicated that -- A: Right. Wasn't being paid Q: You've indicated that some expenses were taken care of or paid by now the federal authorities. Right? A: Correct. Q: All right. Were those expenses the expenses of your cooperation with the federal and state authorities, or some other expenses that you had? I believe they were cooperation expenses. ASWP, Ine 10 uw 2 13 4 16 7 18 19 20 21 2 23 yp » SKINNER - CROSS 132 Q: All right. And such things as airline tickets and net answer that. MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel has his answer to the basic question. I don't see any need for details beyond that. THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to have to ask you to take another brief recess. It's only going to be a few minutes. Please remember the admonitions previously given. THE CLERK: All rise for the jury. (Jury out at 12:35 p.m.) THE COURT: Please be seated. The jury is no longer present. Mr. Skinner, I don't want to split hairs, but I have some question in my mind, when the term expense is used, and whether you and Mr. Feder who's posing the questions and everyone else understands the term expense the same way. If expenses are reimbursement for expenditures of funds that you made in connection with your cooperation, that may be one thing. If expenses which are compensation of one form or another characterized or disguised as expenses of something else, now you may claim your Fifth Amendment privilege with respect to that question or tl you may clarify if I have explained further the dilemma I ASWP, Inc aoe SKINNER - CROSS 133 think I have presently as to the use of the term expenses. Now you are not required to make a response to those conments that I've just made, and can claim your Fifth Amendment privilege if you believe that you wish. ‘THE WITNESS: can answer the question basically. The way I'm using expenses, if I spent a dollar to eat, I got reimbursed for that dollar, or if I spent any money just as a matter of functioning, I was reimbursed for those costs. THE COURT: All right. That's how I have understood the term expense as the witness has used it. MR. FEDER: Could I make some further inquiry, Judge, just so I'm clear? THE COURT: Sure. CROSS EXAMINATION (Jury not present) BY MR. FEDER: Q: When you say you were reimbursed, does that mean in essence from the time you started cooperating until you stopped cooperating that every dollar that you spent on your living expenses were reimbursed, or was it strictly related to only meals that you had while you were working undercover and only hotels that -- A: Only costs incurred while cooperating, nothing else. It was not paying for any sort of living, no other bills, nothing. Q: This was all during the time you were in jail though. ASWP, Ine. 10 u 12 B 14 15 16 7 SKINNER ~ CROSS Right? We're talking about this cooperation period, yes. So your ex - I mean the expenses that you have while you're in jail are that you don't have to buy your meals obviously. Right? | A: No, I don't have to buy my meals in jail, not normally. Q: And you're not going anywhere ‘cause you're in jail. Right? A: That's correct. Q: So is there something I'm missing, or what's the expense? A: If I had an expense and it was related to the cooperation, it was paid for -~ Q: But what type -- A: -+ or not even fully. I mean but there was some sort of expense, money given. @: Can you give us an example of that type of expense? A: I said if I spent a dollar to eat, I was paid back for that dollar. Q: Were you outside of jail? A: I can't answer that. MR. FEDER: Well Judge, with all due respect, I believe that's a fair subject matter for cross examination, that his cooperation facilitated his release from jail is case? THE COURT: How does that bear to t MR. FEDER: It bears on when somebody's cooperating 10 ul 2 SKINNER - CROSS 137 (Jury in at 12:42 p.m.) THE COURT: Please be seated, ladies and gentlemen. You may continue, Mr. Feder. CROSS EXAMINATION (Resumed) BY MR. FEDER: Q: Mr. Skinner, I believe we were talking about your expenses being reimbursed by I believe you indicated federal authorities. Correct? A: Correct. Q: All right. And there was the impression that this was happening while you were in jail based on your being charged with the New Jersey charges. Right? : Correct. Q: All right. People don't have typically many expenses while they're in jail. Is it fair to say that the expenses that were being paid for by the federal authorities were for you - when you were released from jail by them? A: Yes. Q: All right. And the federal authorities, because of your cooperation, arranged for your release from jail? A: Correct. They didn't pay the bail of $250,000, did they? Ar No. Q: They just went, as far as you understand, to the New Jersey prosecutor or the judge, and arranged for you to ASWP, Ine. ee 10 ne 2 14 “15 16 7 18 19 20 2 23 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS be let loose? A: I don't know that. Q: You just know that you were out of jail. Right? A: Correct. Q: All right. When you were done with this cooperation, did you go back into jail? A: Correct. Q: And so you were out of jail for - when you were out of jail cooperating, you didn't have to check back into jail every night, did you? A: Yes and no. @: Yes and no. Okay. Why don't you explain what you mean by yes, and why don't you explain what you mean by no? A: Some of this information may be classified, but I don't know what the result is at this point Q: You're pointing at the pros -- A: No. He was standing up. I'm just waiting so I don't talk. MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel - i counsel could put the question so that it does not elicit anything that the witness has difficulty in -- THE COURT: Sustain the objection to the form of the question. MR. BY MR. FEDER: ASWP, Ine aw 10 uw 2 1B 14 18 16 7 18 19 20 2 23 24 25 SKINNER ~ CROSS 139 : What did you mean when you said yes? A: I was lodged in federal facilities at certain times. : What did you mean when you said no? A: I was put into hotels. : By yourself or with federal authorities? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I see no reason -- THE COURT: sustained. BY MR. FEDE! Q: Were you allowed to travel home during the time - and when I say home, I'm talking about Tulsa. Were you allowed to travel home during the time that you were let loose? Ar No. Q: Were you given clothing? A: What do you mean by given clothing? Q: In other words, were clothes provided you to act in your capacity of cooperating witness? A: TI have plenty of clothes on my own. Q: So they brought some clothes to you? A: My clothes were sent from my homes. Q: All right. And I assume that you were, in other words provided with cars and hotels and things like that while you were out working. Right? Or did you use your own cars? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel's had an opportunity to develop this area. THE COURT: Sustained. aw eww 25 SKINNER - CROSS 141 things. Right? A: Not for expenses, no. Q: Matter of fact you've indicated you don't know what you're going to be given -- A: That's correct. Q: -- if anything -- A: That's correct. Q: -- for this cooperation. A: That's correct. Q: But you're doing it because there are some serious charges pending with you, and you'd like to try to help yourself if you can. Correct? A: Part of the reason, yes. Q: All right. Now that was 1989, or this is - you were charged in 1989. In 1988 were you living between the Caribbean and London? I refuse to answer that, Fifth Amendment. Tell me if I'm correct. I had a conversation with your mother in 1988, and she indicated that you were selling jewelry in the Caribbean. Is that right? MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, I think counsel -- THE COURT: Sustained. MR. ARTERBERRY: -- is delving into pending charges. THE COURT: Also testifying - overruled. or the ASWP, ine. coo ion a 10 u 12 B 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 R 23 25 SKINNER - CROSS objection is sustained. BY MR. FEDER: Q: Were you selling jewelry in the Caribbean in 1988. Ar No. Q: But were you living in or about the Caribbean in -- A: Fifth Amendment. MR. ARTERBERRY: Your Honor, counsel's once again inquiring into areas that concern pending charges against these witness. MR. FEDER: Judge, I don't know that they concern pending charges. THE COURT: The objection is sustained, but the answer has already been made. It may stand. BY MR. FEDER: Q: What was your profession in 1988, sir? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: What was your profession in 1987, sir? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: what was your profession in 1986,. sir? : Fifth Amendment. Q: What was your profession in 1985, sir? A: I was - owned companies in the United States, and was an engineer and marketmaker. Owned companies in the United States, engineer. Correct? That's correct. eer an ae 10 ry 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 2 23 25 SKINNER - CROSS 143 Q: Marketmaker. A: That's correct. Q: Anything else? A: I had a time share computer company. Q: Did you have an engineering degree? A: No. Before I left high school I could do mechanical engineering. Q: Did you have a license to be a marketmaker? A: Wasn't required. I had all licensed personnel. Q: Okay. You owned some companies. What were they? A: I'm going to plead the Fifth on that. Q: This is 1985 when you -- A: I'm going to plead the Fifth on that. Q: All right. In 1985 you were 20, 21 years old. Right? A: Believe so. Q: And you owned - did you say owned companies or controlled companies? Owned then. Q: And you - will you tell me what the names of those companies are? A: I will not, Fifth Amendment. Q: Were you the only stockholder in those companies? A: Basically, yes. Q: Were they companies that were in the United states? A: I plead the Fifth. ASWP, Ine aw eun 2 22 23 24 25 SKINNER ~ CROSS 144 Q: Were they companies that were not in the United States? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: What kind of companies were they? A: Plead the Fifth. Q: Are your activities in 1985 the subject of an investigation now, a criminal investigation? Ap. A: Could be possibly. tu-: 2 tex. P Q: All right. In 1984 what was your profession? se. 4D A: Basically worked as a spring engineer and some finance” business. Q: Spring? A: Spring engineer, mechanical spring. Qi S-P-R-I-N-G? A: That's correct. Q: You worked as a spring engineer, and I'm sorry, what was the other one? Did some financial trading. Q: Financial trading. Ar In other words, marketmaking and analyzation and such. Marketmaking, analyzation? A: Yes. Q: For whon? Ar Myself. Q: Did you have a company? A: I had a company in 1984, ASW, Ine. x Oy 0 10 iL 12 13 14 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS 14s Q: What's the name of it? A: Fifth Amendment again. Q: Where was it? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: Was it in Tulsa? A: Fifth Amendment. Q: All of 1984? A: I did have a company in Tulsa. So I'll answer that yes @: Thank you. Are we talking about that these - that you were engaged in these professions for the entirety of 1984? A: It should have been, yes. Q: And was the - did you have the financial trading company for the entirety of 1984? A: I don't recall exactly, so I don't know. I don't recall that. Q: Did you have it in May of 1984? A: I would say that a financial trading company was formed in '84, but I can't recall a specific date. Well - A: But I would say May. I méan there was probably -- Q: About May of 1984? A: Yeah. There was some incorporations, I had a number of corporations that I formed Q: What kind of incorporations? A: They were me being the sole shareholder. ASWP, Ine. we en 10 uw 2 13 SKINNER - CROSS a7 Q: -- analyzation? Ar Yes. Q: What was the name of that? A: Fifth Amendment. : Is that company still in existence? A: Fifth Amendment. : Were there any other partners in that with you? A: Fifth Amendment. : And again was that company formed in 1984? A: I = no it was not. Q: When was that formed? Ar 185. Q: You're sure? A: Correct. Q: Were you marketmaking in 1984? I think you've already indicated you were -- A: Yeah, but not in a very - in the primary stages, yes. Q: You were marketmaking as of May of 1984? A: No. I was just doing more research and maybe a few minor maneuvers, but mainly it was in ‘85. Q: Okay. Did you inherit some money, sir? A: No. I believe I had a trust that had some real estate in it, but it was minor. Q: What was the source of your income in 19847 Well spring equipment, engineering. I had financial aswe, nh ow ow Solo 10 u 12 1B M4 16 7 18 19 20 21 23 8 SKINNER - CROSS 148 businesses when I had gone to Europe. Q: I'm sorry. You had financial businesses. A: In Europe. Q: What kind of financial businesses? A: Iwas involved in the trading of soft currencies, involved in the movements of metals and such like that. Q: Soft currencies. What does that mean? A: It's a currency that has no value on the world market, because it's so soft. Usually it's Communist currencies. Q: So -- A: or it could be a Third World country where the country is so broke that they can't - they just keep - like Brazil or something where they keep printing money, and they have no world value. Hard currencies are like the Japanese yen, the Deutsch mark, the British pound, the Swiss franc, the United States dollar. Q: So you were in Europe -- A: 1982. Q: Since 1982 you've been doing that? I was doing that in 1982. ‘That would be when you were -- A: Eighteen. Q: Right. Thank you. So you were trading soft currencies - I'm sorry, did I say -- A: I also traded hard currencies too. aswe, ee aan eon 10 u 2 13 4 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 2 23 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS 149 Q: Were you working for any -- A: No. It was all out of my own - I had a friend who I did a few things for, but it was all out of my own pocket. @: So you were trading on the world market in soft currencies and hard currencies? No. I was trading in the particular countries usually. Q: Oh, so you were flying to these countries? A: I lived in Europe. Q: Okay, where? A: I lived in Heidelberg, West Germany. Q@: All right. And you did your trading from there, or you went to the Communist countries too? A: I went to the Communist countries, had to. In order to do any soft currency trade at that time, it had to be done in the presence of the country, unless you were doing a barter deal. Q: I see, And what else were you doing during that period, 1984 I'm talking about? A: Spring engineering. I designed parts. I designed whole lines of series of items that are used in industry. Q: Allright. And you also sold those products? A: Through a corporation, yes, and they're being sold to this day. Q: Grco? Ar No. ASWP, Ine. 10 rat 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 2 23 25 SKINNER - CROSS 150 Q: What other company? A: I was working for my mother's corporation at that point whenever I did that. Q: What's the name of that company? A: Gardner Spring, Inc. Huh? Gardner Spring, Inc. Any other companies that you had in 1984? A Q A : I believe we had a corporation - my mother owned a corporation called Midwestern Metal Finishing, Inc. Q: All right. So you were living -- A: Which was the manufacturing of - then had a planing facility, and it had a spring facility which I designed Q: You were living in West Germany in 1984? A: No. Q: 1983, 1982? A: 1982. Q: All right. Then you moved back to Tulsa? A: That's correct and I travelled frequently to Europe. Q: I see, still trading? Ar still trading. Q: Okay. So is it fair to say that you are going to take the Fifth Amendment in regard to all of your business dealings from mid-1984 to the present? A: No. I'd say from 1985, some point in there, on. ASWP, In. ewe ue 10 ML R 13 4 15 16 W 18 19 20 2 2 2B 25 SKINNER - CROSS 151 Q: And was your step-father involved in these businesses with you? A: None whatsoever. Q: Were you living at home during that time? A: Sometimes. I also had offices, and I lived in - I had my own places to live. : Q: I see. A: And if I came by to visit my mother or something, I -- : Say hello. A: -- say hello to her. I had a room. To this day I've always maintained a room at my mother's house. @: Now you've worked undercover, sir - I'm sorry. You've indicated that you've been a cooperating witness. Does that mean that you've worked undercover? A: I don't know. Q: Well without getting into the subject matter of that cooperation, does that mean that you would go out and actually meet with people to try to set up deals? MR. ARTERBERRY: Object, Your Honor. THE COURT: Sustained. MR. FEDER: What I'm trying to get at, Your Honor, with all due respect, is his ability to be an actor and to participate with people while working for another master, and that's what I'd like to get at is his abilities as an actor. ‘THE COURT: Well pose some more questions and I'll aww ee aan 10 u 12 B 4 16 7 18 19 20 21 23 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS 156 I came to Phoenix on Sunday at 3:00 or something like that. This last Sunday? Yes. All right. And how many times have you had an opportunity to meet with the prosecutor or a FBI agent? A: Maybe five times, four times. Q: Four to five times. Could you tell me on what day that occurred and who was there? A: Monday and it was Reno Walker and the two prosecutors. They may not have both been present through the entire meeting. Q: All right. A: Tuesday I had some short meeting. Q: With the same people? A: Yes, only one of the prosecutors that time. and Wednesday - we missed a day where I was just saw them because they were so busy, and then Thursday I saw them also. Q: Yesterday you man? A: Yes. Q: How much time did you spend on Monday with them? A: I don't know. Let's see, three hours. Q: Three hours. Tuesday? A: Hour, something like that. : Wednesday? A: I don't recall exactly, not much time at all. Either ASP, Ine. am eun 10 ul 12 13 14 15 16 a7 18 19 20 2 SKINNER - CROSS 187 Wednesday or Thursday there was a confusion, and I didn't really get into see then. Q: All right. What about the other day that there wasn't a confusion? A: Just basically an hour. Q: All right. And did Mr. Walker take any notes while you were there? A: I'm sure he did. I didn't take note of that. Q: Did you take any notes? Ar No, I took notes off of some information I read, but never in their presence. Q: You were shown some FBI reports. A: Documentation that I had given to the FBI, and also reports that I had made. Q: Reports about conversations that you had had. A: That's correct. Q: Correct? A: That's correct, uh huh. Q: All right. And now Mr. Skinner, you've testified that in 1984 you were introduced to Mr. Merit. Correct? A: That's correct. Q: And at some time very shortly after that meeting you contacted the FBI in Tulsa. Right? A: That's correct. : And as a result of that contact, either you volunteered Sewer an awn 1 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 2 23 24 SKINNER - CROSS 158 or were instructed or both to try to tape record some conversations. Correct? A: Correct. Q: All right. Were you paid to do that, or did you just do that voluntarily? A: I received no money from the Government, nothing @: You had your own tape recorder? A: I believe the Government came by and actually gave ne one, but I didn't like the way it worked, so I used my own or something like that. I can't remember specifically, but they had lousy equipment. Q: Did you already have one? A: Yeah I had recorders. Q: Did you already have one - the proper equipment -- A: No. I had to use their induction coil @: The induction coil is a thing that you can attach to the phone. Right? A: That's right. I had to use theirs In the state of Oklahoma, isn't it illegal to surreptitiously tape record? A: No it's not. Q: Did you check that? A: Yes. There were two things to that. The first thing is that as long as one of the parties knows it's legal. Q: The question is did you check that? wee aa 10 rt 2 13 SKINNER - CROSS 160 A: Not really. Q: All right. So they just said go ahead and tape record, and here's the tape recorder. I gave them - I told them the situation. They had no response at all to me when I told them that I'd been contacted. A day later or two days later they got back in touch with me, and they said they want all the information I have, and they wanted me to start recording things. Did you contact your father or contact your - I'm sorry - your step-father about what you were about to do? A: Yeah. I talked to him about it before I ever went out there I was talking to hin. Q: Did he tell you who to call, or did you just decide that on your own? A: No, no, no, no. Q: And if I understand your testimony, when was it that you first contacted the FBI? A: Some time around any time like May the 28th to June the 2nd, some period in there. Q: Okay. A: In my mind for some reason I seem to remember something about a Thursday, but that doesn't mean much, you know -- Q: And from that time on you were tape recording conversations. Correct? A: No, that's not true, only when I had the tape recorder ASWP, Ine tues SKINNER - CROSS 162 were awake, and - right? A: Correct. Q: And the conversations that you have given testimony about are - we're talking about five, six, seven conversations, and you tape recorded what, two or three of then? A: No. I really have no recall of how many conversations were recorded. I was shown four tapes, and that they were recorded, but I have no recall how many were recorded. Q: Was that how many tapes you gave the FBI? A: I don't recall that. Q: Could you have given them more? A: No. Actually I think that I made the mistake of recording like two conversations on one tape, and they Had to break that down, But other than that, there was no - I just don't recall how many tapes. I don't think I gave anymore than four tapes, ‘cause I would have remembered carrying that many tapes around. Q: And you've testified - strike that. From the point in time that you began tape recording, or at least at the point in time that you were told to start tape recording, you were no longer actively negotiating with Sam Merit or anybody else, were you? You were working for the Fed's. Corret? A: I had no interest in talking to Sam Merit on my own behalf, no. Q@: All right. So that was strictly law enforcement purpose ASWP, Ine. Cea an kee 10 Tt 12 B 14 16 7 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 28 SKINNER - CROSS 163 from that point on. Right? A: That's correct. Q: All right. And that would be from approximately the end of May to the end. Right? Yeah. Let's say maybe like some time - it could have been June 1st, June 2nd, June 3rd, some time like that. At that point I had - was strictly doing it for the Government's request. Q: And the Government that you mentioned, you had talxed to Reno Walker before that, had you not? A: At some point I spoke to Reno Walker after I talked to Thomas McLean. Q: And before you started tape recording? A: I don't believe so Q: Hadn't you already been in contact with Reno Walker? A: I don't recall. Q: I mean right after the time you met with Sam Merit. A: No, not right after the time I met with Sam Merit. When I went to the gold mine I had not been in contact at all. I didn't have any reason. I didn't have major discrepancies. Q: Well the reason I bring that up, sir, is that you talked about Reno Walker in your conversation with Sam Merit, didn't you? A: But that's on June the 4th. Q: And -- ASWP, Ine, Rowe eer an 10 u 12 13 14 15 16 W 18 19 20 21 2 23 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS 165 Q: Yes. A: At some point prior to that I had to have spoke to him because I heard his voice and thought he was much younger. There was some conversation in that tape about, I said that his voice sounded very young to me, but it could have been June the 4th that I spoke to Reno Walker. Q: But it was before the taped conversation A: That's correct. Q: Correct? A: That's correct, but it could have been June the 4th, you know. Q: Okay. And it's your testimony that you didn't receive anything at all in exchange for your tape recording of - or whatever the cooperation was with the FBI in 1984. Right? Ar There were a set of tickets that were paid for by the Government the second time I went out. Other than that there was nothing. I lost money on the situation, my time and such. Had no reimbursement, no consideration, nothing. 1 had no problems at the tine. Q: Tickets? There were some tickets. Q: Airline tickets? That's correct. Q: So the FBI gave you money or bought the tickets for you A: The tickets were purchased with a credit card, as I a wow ewan 10 W 2 13 14 15 16 M7 18 19 20 21 2 4 25 SKINNER - CROSS 166 remember, and then some months later the FBI reimbursed then. Q: I see. And this friend that you talked about taking out here, were his tickets paid for too? A: You mean the person - there's two people. There was someone that was supposed to come out here that was an engineer. Are you talking about him? Q: I'm talking about, if I recall correctly, you said that you came out here with a friend. A: p-father. Q: Oh your step-father came out here. A: That's correct. Q: Mr. McGreeny. Correct? A: That's correct. @: Ahhh. Okay. And were his tickets paid for? A: By the FBI also. Q: I see. A: But after we paid for them with a credit card. Q: Is your mother still married to Mr. McGreeny? A: Correct. Q: And they still live in Tulsa? A: Correct. Q: Let me get back to something. What was your income. for 1984? A: I have no idea. Q: Well are we talking about 10,000, 20,000, 800,000? ASW, Inc oe) w 10 M1 12 13 4 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 SKINNER - CROSS 167 A: I have no idea. Q: Are we talking about six figures or five figures or four figures or seven figures? A: I don't know. Q: You have no idea. A: No. Q: Did you have the financial capability to come up with $300,000? Ar Well more specifically I can give you the bank account balance I had in a bank - how's that - in like early - late ‘84 or early '85. Would you want that? I can remember specific ‘cause I had to prepare some information. Q: What I want to know at the time that you've claimed you had these conversations, and more importantly the content of the conversations, that you were talking about loaning $300,000. Did you have that capability at that time? A: Oh I'm sure I had the capability. @: You had $300,000° in cash on hand or at least -- A: I'm not saying that. I said I'm sure I had the capability to -~ Q: From what source, sir? A: I had a number. I had good banking contacts. 1 had - money was not a problem to come up with. Q: Your own money. Money was not a problem to come up with. rE eno) ce ee ae 10 u 12 3 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 25 SKINNER - CROSS 168 Was it your own money that you didn't have a problem coming up with? I could have come up with the money, so -- But you don't remember what your income was that year A: No, no, All I remember was the ending balances in a bank account starting in December, 1984 and in January, because it was the note of something I studied extensively. Q: Let me ask you a question. You've indicated that you are asserting the Fifth Amendment to your - what seems to be your marketmaking and financial dealings starting in 1985. are you saying that you didn't start those dealings until 1985? A: That's not what I'm saying. I just use the Fifth, and I'm going to stand on that answer. Q: So were you involved in those same activities that you're taking the Fifth on in 1984? A: Not exactly, no. Q: Well I want an exact answer, sir. A: If I'm researching something and I'm experimenting, and I haven't yet implemented it as a full organization - you see what I'm saying? If you do something, and you research and development a car and you design a car, but you don't produce a car, I mean those are the same activity and they're not the same activity. You see what I'm saying? Q: I do. A: So I did - throughout the early 80's I did a lot of Soe aan een 1 12 13 4 15 16 17 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 «SKINNER - CROSS 169 research, and up till '84, and I may have experimented, but I did not turn it into a corporation, and I did not implement it to its fullest structure. Is that a better answer for you? Q: Yes. I thank you for-it. So it's fair to say that from the early 1980's you were in the planning and experimenting stage -- A: Since '82. Q: Since 1982 you were in the planning and experimenting stages, and that the - is that correct? A: That's correct. Q: All right. And that some time at least in 1984 that you were experimenting with methods of implementing your research. Correct? A: That's correct. @: All right. And - but your efforts really didn't come to full fruition until you think some time in 1985. Right? A: I'd say February of '85. Q: All right. A: Maybe January, you know, some time in February, '85 Q: Kind of proud of those efforts, aren't you? A: No I'm not kind of proud. They were just - I'm just being explicit. They were mathematical relationships of different positions. Q: In the money markets? Bow ow 10 1 12 13 14 1s 16 7 18 19 2 2 23 B SKINNER - CROSS 170 A: Yeah, arbitrage and such, and balancing out mathematical models for different types of spreads and such Q: Uh huh. And if you can answer this, what is it that you believe is incriminating about discussing -- A: Nothing incriminating about the mechanical side of it nothing at all. Q: It was just in the means of implementation -- Ar No. Q: -- that you have concerns? A: No. I just don't want to get - I think that it could cause problems. There's potential liability there, and don't want to get into it from '85 on. Well when you say pot -- I plead the Fifth. Q: When you say potential liability from 1985 on in regard to the implementation, what methods were you using as far as experimentation is concerned in 1984 as to potential implementations of your plan? A: I could take - I could run dry runs to see if my theoretical values and such would behave certain ways, and 1 would see how certain types of options decayed over time, and premiums were built into them, and I could see how to do arbitrage between futures markets and spot markets, and options on physicals and options on futures, and I did research on that. ee aan ewe 10 u 12 B 4 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 24 SKINNER - CROSS a7. Q: And -- A: With all sort of mathematical models. Q: So in addition to the trading in soft currencies that you were doing, you were experimenting with other types of stock, security transactions. Is that right? A: No stocks, just all commodity or money -- Q: The money - the commodities and the money exchanges -- A: Yeah. If you want to call currencies commodities, then you can say it was commodities. 2: And that has to do with - did this still have to do with the Communist country currencies, or ~~ Ar No. Q: -- were these all currencies? Ar I learned some of the techniques of arbitrage from that. Q: Are you finished with your question - I'm sorry - your answer? A: I guess so, yes. Q: Okay. I forgot to ask you this, sir. Were you using the name of Dwayne Miller in 1984? Ar No. Q: All right. When is it that you started using that name? A: Never heard that name until today. @: And when is it that you ~ were you using Terrence Finnigan in 1984? A: Plead the Fifth. ASW, In wwe aan ewan 10 u 12 1B 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 2 22 23 24 25 SKINNER - CROSS 172 Q: Were you using Terrence Finnigan in regard to any of your -- A: Plead the Fifth. Q: Could I finish -- A: Okay, go ahead. Q: -- my question? Okay. Were you using this Finnigan name with regard to any of the experimentation and research that you've been discussing? A: I plead the Fifth. Q: All right. Did you tell the FBI when you went to talk to them that you had - you were also known as Terrence Finnigan? I had no alias' at that time at all, but I want to plead the Fifth continually. Okay? This has nothing to do with the situation. I had no alias' in 1984. Q: So then why are you pleading the Fifth, sir? A: Because answering the question acts like I then took a position. So I'm not - it's - I had no alias’ in 1984. Q: So these alias’ came about at a later time? A: Plead the Fifth. Q: Now Mr. Skinner, I'm looking at a - you reviewed the FBI reports, including one that occurred on June 1, 1984, have you not? A: Yes, I believe I looked at those. Q: All right. And as of June 1, at least this report indicates that Mr. Merit told you he didn't need any more - ASWP, Ine. etna cing acs 10 rT 12 13 14 15 16 7 18 19 20 21 8 25 SKINNER - CROSS 175 A: That's correct. Q: -- at something else? A: That's correct. Q: And Mr. Skinner, do you know - previous to May of 1984, did you know a federal - a United States district court judge in the Virgin Islands named 0'Brien? A: Prior to when again? Q: May of 1984. Ar No. Q: You never met him? A: Never met him. Never met him to this day either. Q: You lived in the Caribbean for a while though. Right? A: I've never been to Saint Croix. Q: These reports indicate that you just contacted this judge. Is that right? : That's correct. I didn't just contact him. I contacted him because I contacted Coral Air. Q: So you called up a federal - it's fair to say that telephonically you called up a federal judge, and talked to him about the Coral Air situation. Right? A: That's correct. Q: And that was at that time a pending case before this district court judge. Correct? A: I don't know that. I don't know that it was a pending case. All I know was the response he gave me. cena an eon 10 ul 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 25 SKINNER - CROSS 176 Q: We can't get into what the responses are, but you never previously met this federal judge. You just called him. Right? A: I didn't know who this man was, and when his voice spoke I didn't know who he was other than what they said his name. That's it. MR. FEDER: Judge, I'm going to get off into another area. This might be an appropriate time to stop. THE COURT: All right. We'll take our recess. We'll be in recess until 8:30 Tuesday morning, ladies and gentlemen. Please remember the admonitions previously given you about not discussing the case, not letting anyone discuss the case in your presence, and keeping an open mind until you've heard all the evidence in the case. I hope you have a pleasant weekend. I'l] remain in the courtroom with counsel. THE CLERK: All rise for the jury. (Jury out at 1:36 p.m.) THE COURT: Please be seated. Mr. Skinner, you're excused, and just be back here at 8:30 Tuesday morning. MR. FEDER: Judge, I would make a request that over the weekend that this witness have no further contact with the prosecutors so that he will not be prepped in any fashion for Tuesday. I believe the case that was cited to you a year ago was -- ASW, Ine

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