Michael

Vadnie: Journalism Professor at St. Cloud State

This interview was conducted on Jan. 28, 2011. Jon Collins: Thank you so much for talking to me. I guess we should start out, what have you been doing in journalism? How did you get into it? Michael Vadnie: Ive been in journalism all my life. I started Bismarck High School in North Dakota, I really in junior high working on the junior high paper and then was in sports for years. Went to St. Thomas to college and did every editor there except sports until I was Editor in Chief. Popped into the military and out, and then I went to the Grand Forks Herald for six years and then I went to law school for three and then I went to St. Cloud State to work in print journalism. Been teaching from 1981 to this year, which is 2011. Collins: Lets start at the beginning. What appealed to you about journalism? Vadnie: Probably two or three things. I guess personally I guess I always wanted to hold peoples feet to the fire, make them accountable. I like people. I care about them and I like telling stories. I was at best a raw writer with lots of energy but I was blessed with some great editors in Grand Forks and to the extent now I feel like Im qualified after all these years to be teaching and mentoring writing. But it isnt just about putting words on paper, its really all about trying to make a difference and I believe that thats what the press does. Collins: When you first started your first journalism jobs, what was it like? Vadnie: I have the distinction of having once worked for the Minneapolis Daily American, the summer of 1969. A guy named Fran McGovern I think was his name. A man named Fran. And he ran a little daily down on 28th and Bloomington in Minneapolis that he considered to be the other voice to the enemy the Star and the Tribune. And all I wanted to do with my life is work for the Star or the Tribune but I needed a summer job and I covered sports for him and was able to get to talk to some sports people, the Twins and the Vikes and do the daily stuff but it never really got over the fact that wasnt a very meaningful kind of journalism to me, the game side. And the issues wasnt what he was interested in. if there was a problem with the cops and the bikers, we told the bikers story. It didnt matter what the cops said, because the Star already had that. I thought at one time Id probably come back from the service and have a job there. People changed. I didnt get a job there. Ended up at Grand Forks. Road not taken, better for me. I dont know if I would have liked living in a city coming from the rural areas, so St. Clouds big enough for me and small enough for me.

 Collins: That almost seems like you were successful Vadnie: Yeah I would think so only way more conservative I would say. He would have run a Rush Limbaugh type column and indeed probably did. Arch conservatism. I dont find anything wrong with that voice, I just, you asked what it was like. You walked in and there was the smell of molt and lead and sod and paper and we had pencils and papers and they measured the column inches with their knuckle. It was an old fashioned newspaper. I felt like I had ink in my blood by then. Go in the service, come back, walk into the Grand Forks Herald for my interview, and I had that same sensory perception of thats where I want to work. I want to stub my cigarette out on the floor. I want to pile of papers around me. Well after a couple of fire code violations and a cleanup rule and then they put carpet on the floor, then they ban smoking, I mean it still was a news room, but it was quieter. Clickety-click. I was there from the transition from the manual typewriter to the Selectric to the first computers, the Compugraphics. And the same at St. Cloud State, I walked into the lab full of regular old fashioned to you typewriters and now were as fancy dancy InDesign, all of the possible types of apps and so forth you could possibly imagine. So Ive been kind of there and back, many of the people here, especially the grey hairs. Theyve been there back when it was kind of a, you know it was an enterprise and it was a passion. I still think theres a lot of that. Weve had to invent ourselves again in journalism education as well as the news organizations have too. Collins: You were kind of around for the post-WatergateProfessionalism in journalism. How id that impact the industry? Vadnie: Oh yes. Thats what our first amendment form is on, then and now of the investigative reporting. I was right smack dab in; I was in the service overseas when Watergate stories broke. And read with interest in the papers my dad sent me. Or in Stars and Stripes. And debating with people about this and that and when I got to the paper all I really wanted to do is project but when they give you the cops and the courts and the county for beats you dont always get them. Well, ultimately we got to do some pretty darn good projects and I joined IRE, Investigative Reporters and Editors. In the mid 70s I was on the ground floor for that. Ultimately served in some positions with them, and Ive been active with them, Ive probably been to 30 national conventions with IRE where I bring back things and handouts and best practices and such for the students. Quite a little archive Ive built up over time, dont know what Im going to do with it, but Ive got a heck of a lot of stuff. So I think thats probably the thing that we might be losing now that we hit this decade. The people power and the money and energy to do project reporting has, in my view,

some of the stuff they call projects now barely scratches the surface of what I think it should be, but you come here to an event and see the winning entries, you see some people are still trying mightily to do that. Collins: How has the corporate ownership of cause you know since the Vadnie: Yeah, well Im a little bit salty about that probably because I worked for a Ridder paper, got bought by Knight, it became Knight Ridder. Through crook and rook I ended up being pretty heavily involved with the new union with the ITU. The news guild wouldnt come to Grand Forks from the Cities, so we were ITU Associate. International Typographic Union, Associate people. And you know, we negotiated for probably a year to get respect, another year to get money, and that didnt bode well for my future, thats for sure, so knowing that everybody was getting incentive raises except the president of the union, I was thinking maybe thats not where I was going to end up and I wanted a family, so I went off to grad school and law school and ended up landing a job that turned out to be beautiful for what I wanted to do. Collins: Whats the experience been at St. Cloud? How have the schools changed since you started teaching there? When did you start there? Vadnie: I started there the fall of 1981. Thats a tough question because in many ways the students are the same that would desire to go to college and that, of every ten, six or seven who want to be journalists really do have the same passion for the things you and I talked about. Maybe they want to take pictures for National Geographic or work for the New York Times. Those are all noble goals; theyre also like trying to make the major leagues in baseball, too. But theres nothing wrong with dreaming. And Im there for them if I can help mentor them or help them a little bit. I cant do it to them and for them, and I surely cant teach people to write or think, but I can guide them and I think thats what I do and we do. Its not just me. Were a collective. We work together. Biggest difference? Weve been through the material boy and girl from the 80s I think. I think we all lived fat and sassy in the 90s, thats just my view. Even students I think were gluttonous and now were getting it right upside the head and things are coming back to center and the recession, the realities of it. An education and the newspaper industry, obviously the students of the 80 read more. They read more books and they devoured newspapers. Now that theres an Internet they go to their browsers and their ibooks and their fancy telephones that the professors cant afford but they can. Just kidding. They read their paper and what that does to me it seems like its, like, trying to go through life and make a piece of pie one piece at a time instead of having a newspaper they can browse through it and stop and read about Bosnia. A student that doesnt know what Bosnia is and where it is isnt going to look for it on the web browser or on the Google Reader unless theyve got it tagged for a reason like their friends are there or some such thing. I think our international and national politics. Which I think our voters

need is getting more lame. I dont know if thats the word I need. I wonder if were dumbing down our voters. Since I believe that the reason that were in existence as educators and journalists is to help people be able to survive their society and make election decisions and know who to do business with, my sense is that weve got people that are vulnerable to being led around by unscrupulous government leaders and even if theyre well intentioned, some of their plans arent the best for all of us. And thats probably the major disappointment to us is when we say to people, whens the last time you read a book? Well not really. You know. Not last year, I just havent ever read a book. Well what about in high school? I read sparks. Whatever that is. We call them Cliff Notes. They read the shorthand version or they see the movie. That was another one. Collins: Because the industry is so messed up in some ways, are they as scrappy or more idealistic about it? Vadnie: I think theyre scared to death. Their parents are scaring them. The internships tell you that youre probably not going to get paid very well, if at all. And the workplace are offering 29 hour jobs so they didnt have to buy bennies so we talk about cobbling together a media living, not looking for that beautiful profession. Now out of every 10 again, where we used to place 7 or 8 maybe in the industry, we might be doing half that now. The others are taking their skills and going into corporate PR or not for profit PR. Or the new upstarts like Patch and clearly the aggregators and the new model, some of the things like ProPublica and MinnPost and such. I think they serve a wonderful purpose, I dont know how that helps their job market very much. And the newsrooms have shrunk to the bare minimum. And if youre going to survive there you either have to kiss a lot of you know what or you have to be awfully good, or both. And the more corporatized, which I know isnt a word but I use it anyway, the more corporatized it is, the more we suffer from one-voice journalism. And Im totally opposed to getting all my news from one source. I lean a little left politically. That doesnt mean Im not going to read the rights stuff and occasionally listen to it so I can hear the cohesiveness of some of the arguments and stupidity of some of the others, and likewise to listen to my political side. Some of it borders on stupid and self-serving, but if you dont balance it. It goes back to the old marketplace of ideas, first create beginning mass [communications] to try to understand that sharing and that balancing of ideas. Youre getting more out of me than you want, cause Im a talker. Sorry, Ill fill your tape up; I hope youll throw I it out. You can tell Ive got this all built up. Collins: What changes have you seen in ethics since youve started in the industry? I know its not uncommon, the pressure to represent, how strictly are we still sticking to these media ethics?

Vadnie: Surprisingly its my view that theyre probably still real important at the classiest news organizations. They will have ethical discussions and have ethics time outs. While theres still some culture to if you can get it, you can print it. I dont agree with that. I believe sometimes you responsibly dont print something. Or air it or post it. And I think theres a great adherence to the perception of improprieties through conflicts and friendships. I think its always been the hardest thing for a journalist to build up a really good source, and what comes after coffee is a beer and sometimes its play ball together and you can even fall in love. You can become friends and thats probably the toughest line. I had my friends, because Ive got so many students out there that are now pros I still get a pretty good read of whats going on. Theyll call and say this is going on in my life, or this is happening, or Im not sure how the boss will do this, should I bring it up? Theyll come and be the father confessor figure and conflicts interested, freebies stop being much most of the newspapers bar it completely. I think the most difficult ethical problem of all is probably this business of trying to give voice to the voiceless and trying not to turn diversity upside down. And probably, well those are the ethical flashpoints I see. Collins: Is that different from when you started out? Vadnie: I dont know, I was always a big fan of the journalist creed and ethics code, so I took it upon myself to read them at least once or twice a year to remind myself that Im taking shots at other professions. Most of mine were looking for crooked cops and crooked judges and crooked lawyers and found a few. That isnt to say in my own newsroom there werent a few people that would, you know, you let me go hunting with you in your hunting camp, Ill write a wonderful story about your business. A little bit of that may have happened here and there. Its just real, I hate the phrase, but it is a slippery slope. And thats what happens of course to politics and people when they broker power and I think the press has to be mindful of how powerful it is because it carries with it a mantle of responsibility in my opinion. Collins: Do you think the public understands that journalism does play this service role? Vadnie: Probably not very well. If theres a big disconnect its probably the try as you might, its hard to separate the editorial pages from the news pages. Now sometimes the new pages from the ad pages. The St. Cloud Times is a marvelous group of paper and they have specialty paper. They got an ROI thing for high-end businesses. Theyve got something for women. Theyve got something for older citizens. Theyve got something for Somalians. You know theyve, you sell the company store a little bit when you start carving out little planks, but at one time youre trying to make money for your shareholders and probably do the right thing at telling stories nobody really caress about. Like, I dont really care how a really really really rich banker is going to invest his

incidental money because I dont have any and Im well enough heeled that Im not poor either. The poor people have even less interest in that. And interestingly its not just rich people and old people that read papers. Theres still a good group of people that either gets it in the morning or comes home and reads the paper. And Im in that category. Ive gotta have my paper. I grew up in a culture of afternoon papers, so I read my morning paper in the afternoon. By then Ive heard half of it by word of mouth or Ive seen it on my browser. The fact is, I supplement it with some radio and some TV. And then the online. I dont enjoy reading a lot on the Internet. I havent got the Kindle yet. I think Im going to get one for retirement. Ive got a sneaking suspicion that will be what my wife gets me. Am I ready for that? Or would I like to have the paper to turn the page and mark my spot. Collins: The American culture has gone through a lot of big shifts itself, civil rights, womens movement. Especially in Minnesota. How is the way that in your experience newspapers in Minnesota covered either of these demographics? Vadnie: Youre a good interviewer. You are. Thats an excellent question. Broad reaching and probably a little over my head, frankly, but I did write a column for seven years for this association where I tried to put my thumb on the pulse of a community newspaper and that was the thing that I through was most important was to remind the owners who would tell their managers who would tell the reporters who I was really talking that heres a way to tell a story of our civil liberties and if you look, I teach Masscom law is one of my main courses. To ignore the civil rights movement, the womens movement, the GBLT movement. I think even elderly rights movement that were going through now is to ignore where freedom of expressions been right in there. And were covering it and B were enjoying our freedoms because of the other people who fought for their freedoms. My theory is if we dont tell that story no one else is going to tell that story. People say we shouldnt cover something because its sensitive. We shouldnt put the Fighting Sioux name in our newspaper. Well, how would anyone know what the name of the football team is if we dont put it in the paper? And if a book comes out thats got the N word in it, and the title has the N word in it, how are we supposed to write about it and pretend these things, and theres a double standard out there really. What offends people has morphed into diversity a little bit, but thats really the, whatever you call it, the magnifying glass of a college campus. No matter what people say, it is not all a bunch of lefty weirdoes. Fully half of these people are middle or Republicans. Theres a lot of liberals, but there are a lot of people in all of our professions that arent. So that ivory tower full of kook lefties is not true. At least not in my university of a thousand faculty. And of course the big change throughout our land is the immigration and the refugees. Unlike many of the people of Minnesota, they just happen to have a different skin color, but theyre not any different than the Polish and

the Germans and the Irish and the Scandinavians that all came here. All sometimes for the exact same reason. Its got pretty clean air, and clean water and fairly user-friendly government, and why not? Collins: Its a hard shift for these especially smaller community papers to jump from representing the people that have lived around them for a long time to be inclusive of these cultures? Vadnie: I think so. Its very difficult. I dont have any answers either. I stop a little short of bending over backwards. I think they have to step up and tell the community what it is that they can bring before they start asking for what we can give. Thats of course, what can you say about that? Thats just the way it is I suppose. The solution is caring though. I still go back to my original reason. If we talked to people and we care then the community talks to itself through our news webpages and our newspapers and our comment sections. Collins: We talked a little bit about how projects have become less evident on the national level. What about at the state level and at the city level? Whats the importance of having this sort of project or enterprise journalism at the state and city levels? Vadnie: Well, thats good. Minnesotas blessed with lots of people who like to vote. Thats brought us everything from sometimes-wonderful school board or city council to Jesse Ventura and all thats in between. And as somebody who wanted to send a message to the parties by voting for Ventura and having it blow up in my face, I got a little bit of blood on my hands there, because I believe the voting franchise is a message. Surely not the vote we sat around the poker table and 6 out of 8 guys voting for Ventura just to move the percentage up to let them know we dont like anybody. Well look what happened there. A lot of people felt the same way. I like to think that the more people who vote the more people have, theyre enfranchised into believing. Everybody who owns a house can pay their taxes. Why wouldnt you want to understand how much theyre getting and why and where it goes, and then vote accordingly to your beliefs. If they need a new sewer system, you might have to tax yourself a little more. Regular nuts and bolts stuff. I mean we have an interesting state. Minnesotas interesting. I grew up in North Dakota. Its also very interesting. Its very much smaller. Its about the small of St. Paul probably. The people. But the point being that the more intrigue there is in the industrial side of Minnesota, from the nature side of Minnesota, from the cultural melting pot of Minnesota, I think it just makes it a gimmee to wanna work in a press here. You see these award things they have here at the convention. Look at the marvelous that are coming, from a blue zone in one place to the scourge of some kind of oil fiasco or something. Just dang everything. To me thats intriguing. I say elect Jesse Ventura,

whos happiest? The news reporters will get to cover a crackpot. What could be more fun? Id like to follow Michelle Bachmann around and just listen to her step on her tongue. Thats just the way I am. Now that doesnt mean Id like to do that with a Democrat too. Theres some pretty weird Democrats out there that have the ability to make up facts. I like to be the one that says, theres somebody. I got a guy on channel four that does that, whether this is true what a politician says. I like that kind of journalism. Like, this guy just said this in a speech and guess what, hes right. Heres why hes right, because the budget says hes right. And then the guy criticizes him and say hes wrong. The reason hes wrong is because the documents says hes wrong. He either BSed, or he made it up or he has a political agenda. We cant see much more than people tell us, what we can dig up, but we can do the best we can. Collins: Has that fact checking become more important as the we have the Internet? Vadnie: Yeah, I think so. I think fact checking is something that was underrated before. I go into the college paper from time to time and Ill just pick up one of the stories and Ill call the sources and say, in context, did you say this? And I like to hear almost verbatim or very close or you know, I didnt know it was going to be in that component of the story or I might have said this. Ill get the reports and I think hes got a couple more lines here, you go ahead and finish this story. I thought I would like being a fact checker. You get to talk to people. Theyve already shown theyll talk. Its a message to them that were trying to be accurate and at the end of the day when were not accurate it comes back, blows us up. Collins: Something Ive never really talked with anyone about is with the willingness of sources to talk in the internet age is, now if you ever read Gawker or anything like that, just a normal person can be ridiculed on the internet. So its possibly no more dangerous for them to talk to them in the past. Or their impression is Vadnie: We try to teach and apply at the college paper anyway, in the college press, the difference between public figures and folks that are just your classic citizens whos house just burned down or tragedy we try to teach sensitivity and that sort of thing. And I believe your question is there, because they talk to us, does that make them important enough that we ought to be posting and putting in what they say, particularly if they say something thats opening them for ridicule. I see some stupid guy and does something and gets on Smoking Gun because he took his pants off in a Target store, guy broke the law, its public, they got some film, it doesnt make my day but they kind of gave it up when they did something stupid or they were intoxicated or in some cases mentally handicapped. Id rather have us focus on the newsmakers that are in positions of power. You know the best sources are cops, teachers, clerks, custodians. Sometimes they forgot more than the people that run the

place know, and I dont see any reason to go out of my way to ridicule them if they dont say something right. We have been changing peoples exact words in quotes for years to make it understandable. Why would we go out of our way to know phonetically quote people that have misspoken? I dont see that. Thats part of caring. I think. Collins: and maintaining that relationship, right? Vadnie: Sure. We talk about checking our traps every day and you do this too. We talk a lot about the care and feeding of sources. Common courtesies and civilities. I was talking to a guy today I never do this but since my payroll got screwed up today, I shouldnt do this, I had to take a call from my payroll clerk. I would never interrupt a conversation if it wasnt my wife, in which I would politely try to see whether it was something more important and remember to bring home the milk. Were all kind of wired to our equipment, arent we a little bit? I like to go hunting, I feel like Ive lost something in my outfit, well wheres my phone? It doesnt work but I like to, thats another hang-up of mine is people generally less civil now than they were then. In my earlier part of my life. And journalists arent any better. With something, at least its a goal to work at to see if we can remember to say please and thank you. Little things like call somebody up after a story and say, well, how was that? How did you feel? Do you think I got it? And then shut up and listen and see if they really will tell you something that you can learn for next time. If I get something wrong or a little cockeyed, I dont want to walk around like I nailed it. If I had a triple I dont want a home run in the scorebook and thats the way I feel and I think the better journalists, thats the way that source is going to be there again then is because you asked and listened. And if you correct something where you did make a mistake. Theres nothing wrong with owning up to a mistake. I mean, in a libel setting you got to be a little careful about how you do it. And weve been through that in our lives where we made mistakes that hurt people. Havent noticed nobody I know tries to that. We dont get up you and me and decide to make up a story that Oprah Winfreys dating Obama behind everyones back just because it sounds really interesting and funny, but we just dont do it do we? Collins: Where do you put the rise of PR? Because you said cops are the best sources but at so many police departments you cant talk to the beat cops. Vadnie: What youre talking about really is the funnel. I think that PR people, I used to kind of be thinking of them as adverse but as I became a reporter I found out to take it be, I thought terribly valuable, and part of that value is helping you get to the contacts. I need a cop, Id like to do a story about stress, Id like to find a married cop, maybe not necessarily someone whos going to tell me he had a disability leave or something, but somebody whos had a traumatic experience maybe. A suicide by cop was one I did with the PR guy with me and I did he and his wife. And he also got shot. They just help smooth the way for me, but you got to have the reputation for them to say, this guys ok. Cause if youre a rape and pillage journalist which is the one that never says thank

you and never cares if they get it right and is in that holier than thou school of journalism, I dont know how they get interviews with real people. You could not like a guy for a distance thats like that. The rise of PR sounds like a funny phrase cause its always been there. I dont think the new tools of spin are maybe more accurate than saying the industrys different. Cause you always have corporate communications and PR flacks and so forth. When you see the impact that the corporate spinmasters have had on the last several presidential elections using social media. Obama was able and Kerry were able to reach out to young people in a way that, and Clinton too, in a way that no one else ever had done. Well guess who turned out on the end? Even Bush and Cheney started hitting real hard with the social media. Collins: What about the way that reporters approach the reporting aspect of their jobs. Has that changed? Vadnie: I think so. I think its changed a lot. I think they have more to do with less and the best reporters I know I feel like sometimes they feel a little burned out. A lot of them also by the way do a lot of work at home because you can do it. Id be sitting and having lunch with a friend whos just been to court and were sitting at Ciattis and eating a salad with one hand and typing his story in with the other hand and sending it over the wireless and its going to be online before he drinks his coffee. Thats a great big change. The downside for the cell phones and the computers in the cell phone is that the boss expects you to clock your time but youre on duty all day long. The amazing number of calls my friends that Im with get at night from people checking their copy in the copy desk. They say they would have had to pick up a phone and find you at home, reason it out themselves, which often could be done if they werent needful or whatever it is. Editors are good; they serve a purpose I suspect. Im more of a rank and file guy. I like the soldier part of being a reporter and while I appreciate the input, I always hated being second-guessed. And if you, as a reporter, offered more than they expect then you keep them off your back. That was always my theory. Ill give you 25 inches; you used 16, thats fine. You pick it. Or ask me. But not at night. Unless youre going to pay me. Collins: Well why would why young people go into this profession? The pressures, the difficulties of the jobs. What do you think drives the ones that are still attending the classes? Vadnie: I think the good ones want to make the world a better place. I know that sounds stupid, not stupid, I think it sounds a little bit idealistic. A number of years ago in the middle of my advanced class one of my exceptionally esoteric utopian type black shoes, a guy raised his hand, he says, tell us the truth. Theres never going to be enough time

for us to do this, is there? I said, youre right. But theres a best practice. And if you can do 80% of the best practice thats better than 50% of the best practice. So if you learn to manage your time, let them think theyre managing you but youre managing your bosses. Youll be better than the next guy. All anybody that wants to amount to anything is that they want to do the best that they can within their skills and capabilities. I dont know, I dont think theres anything more that I can say other than I think they want the world to be a better place. A lot of them labor under the belief somewhere out there theres fundamental fairness. Well, god love the young people. They cant give me a citation where that fundamental fairness is supposed to come from or how that happens, but they care about it being fair. And theyre offended by people that bash gays, and theyre offended at people that hate minorities. And theyre offended by authority thats without direction. Those are my kind of people. Collins: And one last question, I really appreciate you talking with me. Vadnie: Yeah, I talk too much. Collins: Oh no no, all the better for me. Vadnie: Get paid by the word. Word word word word. Yes, Im just kidding. Collins: We dont really talk that much about the rise of newspapers. Professionalism. Could you tell me a little bit about your experience starting. How it impacted the paper? Vadnie: I guess it could. Its still there. And theres still a couple of unionized papers in Minnesota. A pretty big group at the dailies. Be clear that I didnt have anything to do with starting it other than I was an initial member. And a little bit skeptical but knowing that in four, three years at the paper, no one had had a baby if they were a woman or had a baby with their wife if they were a man, and no one bought a house. And after our contract was signed and we got our retro, we all bought houses and we all had babies. My wife had a baby. And it was proof in the pudding that we should be paid better than a garbage truck driver in Grand Forks, North Dakota. I dont have anything against garbage truck drivers, but to me theres something about how important what we do is and while advertising greases the wheel, why should we be treated like second-class non-professional citizens? The union movement itselfs in trouble now, Id say worldwide. Ive been in the union now, of course with being a college teacher and weve been proud to negotiate bout four or five years of wage freezes. Going backwards is out of hand. Whats the union got to offer for us than really for one and a half percent of our pay, except for watching our benefits now and our rights? And those are important. Cause someone will take them away if they can. In the newspaper business the part about the unions I didnt care for is

the part that the unions like the most and thats that the unions only as strong as how it deals with its weakest members. Well I dont like weaklings in my newsrooms. I hate lazy people. And when a lazy guy gets in trouble and wants me to go file a grievance, particularly if theyre not a full-paying member but theyre on our unit, I have a little trouble with this. So thats always been catching in my craw, but thats also like saying free speech applies to everybody and if you take it away from somebody we dont like than theyll take it away from the ones that we like. And so thats the little bit of what the union movement is going through now. Were lucky in the teaching business cause we have a pretty thoughtful legislature and a reasonably good educational commitment. Being a private sector business the newspapers have to address it just like everybody else. But my thought would be if you bargain in good faith on both sides of the table. At my first bargaining session we asked for 28% and they offered 0. For three months they offered us zero. Two years later we got 8% which is probably what we should have said, can we have 9, no 7, how about 8, lets go golfing. But youve got to play the game. And somewhere out there I bet they knew all along that theyre going to be right on eight. Now unions havent got eight for years. But that was 1975ish, around in there. Right now a half a percent looks good to a teacher. You could make a little money. Im not an expert about unions, thats just what Ive seen. You can see the difference in a shop or a newspaper that doesnt have a union. Maybe some of the arbitrary things. You know, management still has lots of rights under union contracts. Lots of what youd call prerogative. Thats ok. Its their business, they own it. The state runs the colleges. The publishers and shareholders run the newspaper. Im ok. Im ok with that. Id just like to see, be fair with all the people. And if somebodys dead weight, you cut em. And if you have to cut a guy in the middle instead of the lowest, or the most high paid, do it because of the right reasons. Thats my thought. Collins: What skills do you think are important to a good journalist, your ideal journalist? Is there still a place for that in this industry? Vadnie: I think there are of traits of good journalists. I think most dramatically somebody who can be curious and skeptical wants to do the noble thing and can write and likes people. I think curiosity starts the whole ball going. I always tell the students if youre going on a walk and you wonder whats over the next hill, youre starting to think a little bit like that if youre just la di dah through life and you dont ever wonder why or how, seems to me a little shallow. Sometimes some of us probably get headaches from worrying about whats on the other side of the hill, I think journalists, thats why we kick over rocks. Its why we shine lights in corners. The accountability of government, the accountability of business, checking value. I mean, thats something I believe in. The Fourth Estate. Big labor by the way is the fourth one. People forget. The press in government and business, but big labor was there all along. The corrupt stuff that theyve been doing, theyre still probably corruptness in some unions, theres probably corruptness in some not for profits. We try to do, hold their feet to the fire as I said

before and be the ones that try to stand up for whats right and whats responsible. And whats legal. Collins: Is there a place for that? Vadnie: Oh god I hope so. Shoot. Id hate to waste my life on it like this. Oh yes. I think so. And you know that. Youre asking a rhetorical question. I fully believe that and I still believe theres lots of excellent owners down through reporters that feel. Theres people at this convention, the owners of these papers care about their communities and theyve devoted their lives to telling their stories. Well at the smaller, the community the tougher it is to be aloof and totally objective without some boosterism. I can live with that. I can. I sit next to the mayor at church or your kids go to school. Its a hard thing to do if youve got a 17,000-circulation newspaper in a town, probably got 100% saturation. Collins: Are there any experiences that over the years stand out to you as emblematic as you think bad journalism is? Times when the newsroom stories were Vadnie: I dont think I can start that without missing my next session. Ive got to do a session here where we give out the awards. Ill pass on that one. Sorry. Collins: Ok, well is there anything else you want to throw in? Vadnie: I think its been a great conversation. I think youre a great interviewer.