layman2u

Well, you are a very bright young man. It is clear that Psalm 16:8 was for you. I like to use "bible.cc" it proved to be very useful to me. It is a bible parallel translation site of aprox. 15 of the most commonly used bibles today along with there commentaries. And a multi-version concordance, multilingual and more really comes in handy. check it out. Death isn't really something I worry about anymore. It's inevitable. But along the years this is what I've gathered here and around the world as a christian. Hades; the Spirit world, in Old Testament times the soul and spiritof everyone went there after death, but the righteouswere separated from the wicked by the "Great Gulf" to a place called "Abrahams Bosom" or Paradise. Luke 16:25-27. But after Christs Resurrection it became the "Third Heaven";2Cor 12:1-4. Which is also known asbeing in the immediate presence of God:2Cor 5:1-8 1Thes 4:13-18. However, all the unsaved before and after Christs Resurrection still have to go to Hades/Hell and are in conscious torment; Luke 16:22-28. This is why it is so important to Christians to be "Saved". Then at the Great White Throne Judgement, which the wicked will be raised; Rev 20:11-15 Then Hades/Hell becomes part of "Gehenns" or eternal hell we now call the "Second death" Satan, the fallen Angels and the unsaved will be placed: Matt 25:41. this will seperate them from God Eternally; Rev 20:14, A new sinless universe; Rev 21:1-3. Did I miss anything? My prayers are with you young man. The Spirit is with you. Amen.

Jedi Ninja

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST: What happens when you are thrown into a fire? The logical answer is that you burn to death. Those who have not followed Jesus as Lord will NOT receive eternal life, and therefore they will not be immortal, and therefore they will not be able to survive being thrown into the lake of fire! They will DIE in the lake of fire, not be tortured for all eternity. This is why it is called "the Second Death" - because they died once already (their natural human death, which was a literal death and not a teleportation into a fiery torture chamber) and now they will literally (not receive eternal life in a torture chamber, but die) a second time in the lake of fire. AFTER this, death itself, as well as hell (the grave) will be thrown into the lake of fire, and be destroyed. This is symbolic of the power of death ceasing to exist in this world - for the righteous who were spared from the lake of fire through their submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, they will live in a new and perfect world where death does not exist, nor does hell (the grave where body and soul decay) exist. If the dead are judged immediately after death and sent to either heaven or hell immediately after death, then what is the point of the Great White Throne judgement that will occur in the future at the resurrection? If the dead have already been judged when they die, then why judge them again just to deliver the same verdict again? Can someone repent in sheol ("hell") where there is "no knowledge" and "no wisdom"? Absolutely not! Then the same verdict will simply be delivered again, as well as the same punishment. If people are judged immediately when they die, then the Great White Throne judgement that Jesus Christ will execute upon his return is just a meaningless charade! Why raise the dead out of hell just to re-condemn them back into hell? That's just a waste of time. But if we understand the biblical view that the dead are literally dead - that both body and soul are decaying with no conscious understanding - then it makes perfect sense. Because there is no consciousness in death, then when you die the very next thing you will know will be the resurrection and the judgement before Jesus Christ! Then you will either receive eternal life in the Kingdom of God, or a second death (yes, literal death) in the lake of fire. Your destiny in the future depends on your repentance (turning away from sin) today.

Jedi Ninja

"Hell" in the Bible is from the Hebrew "sheol" meaning "the grave". In the New Tesatment it is translated from either "hades" meaning "the abode of the dead" (the grave where people are buried when they die) or "Gehenna" meaning "the Valley of Hinnom" - a valley outside Jerusalem where many thousands of dead corpses were burned. Translating these Hebrew and Greek words as "hell" is not necessarily incorrect, but such a translation is often misinterpreted by modern day readers of the Bible. The words do NOT mean "hell fire", as is popularly believed. They refer instead to "the place of the dead" - the literal grave where literally dead bodies are buried or otherwise destroyed. My father visited the Valley of Hinnom, and therefore it could be said that my father went to hell, according to the biblical definition of the word. He came back fine. Contrary to the Platonic mythology that has invaded the modern day church, in Hebrew theology the soul is not immortal. In Matthew 10:28 Jesus speaks of "him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell". This makes the Greek mythological concept of hell as a place of eternal torture of the soul impossible. If both your body is destroyed and your soul is destroyed, what is left to torture? Nothing. You are truly dead. You are not conscious, nor can you think, or plan, or do anything. Ecclesiastes 9:10 says, "Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest." The word translated as "grave" is the Hebrew word "sheol" which is often translated as "hell". It means "the place of the dead". And the dead are literally dead - they have no knowledge (i.e. no consciousness). If you read "the whole book" you would also read these verses which prove that the dead are literally dead, and they are not conscious in a torture chamber. In fact, both their bodies and their souls are destroyed in the grave (Matthew 10:28). If both the body and the soul is destroyed, then what is left to torture? When someone dies, they are thrown into a grave or their corpse is burned. Either way, their body and their soul decay and cease to exist. HOWEVER, when Jesus the Messiah returns, the decaying bodies and souls of the dead will be made whole again, the dead will become living again, and Jesus will judge everyone who has ever lived - some unto eternal life in the Kingdom of God, and some unto eternal death in the lake of fire. The Bible tells us that following Jesus as Lord is the only way to eternal life, and those who do not follow Jesus as Lord will NOT receive eternal life, but be thrown into the lake of fire. What happens when you are thrown into a fire? The logical answer is that you burn to death. Those who have not followed Jesus as Lord will NOT receive eternal life, and therefore they will not be immortal, and therefore they will not be able to survive being thrown into the lake of fire! They will DIE in the lake of fire, not be tortured for all eternity. This is why it is called "the Second Death" - because they died once already (their natural human death, which was a literal death and not a teleportation into a fiery torture chamber) and now they will literally (not receive eternal life in a torture chamber, but die) a second time in the lake of fire. AFTER this, death itself, as well as hell (the grave) will be thrown into the lake of fire, and be destroyed. This is symbolic of the power of death ceasing to exist in this world - for the righteous who were spared from the lake of fire through their submission to the Lordship of Jesus Christ, they will live in a new and perfect world where death does not exist, nor does hell (the grave where body and soul decay) exist. If the dead are judged immediately after death and sent to either heaven or hell immediately after death, then what is the point of the Great White Throne judgement that will occur in the future at the resurrection? If the dead have already been judged when they die, then why judge them again just to deliver the same verdict again? Can someone repent in sheol ("hell") where there is "no knowledge" and "no wisdom"? Absolutely not! Then the same verdict will simply be delivered again, as well as the same punishment. If people are judged immediately when they die, then the Great White Throne judgement that Jesus Christ will execute upon his return is just a meaningless charade! Why raise the dead out of hell just to re-condemn them back into hell? That's just a waste of time. But if we understand the biblical view that the dead are literally dead - that both body and soul are decaying with no conscious understanding - then it makes perfect sense. Because there is no consciousness in death, then when you die the very next thing you will know will be the resurrection and the judgement before Jesus Christ! Then you will either receive eternal life in the Kingdom of God, or a seco

patrickseanfarley4124

Thanks for publishing this. I don't believe in the Judeo-Christian-Muslim God but I enjoy the moral arguments for and against torture.

Jedi Ninja

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST: This is why Jesus said, "He who believes in me shall live, even if he dies". Christians die every day. But for the believer in Jesus Christ, death is not permament. The unrighteous will perish permamently in the lake of fire when they experience the Second Death. The Christian will not, for all who trust in Jesus as their Lord will be raised again unto eternal life when Christ returns at the end of the age and the Kingdom of God is fulfilled on Earth. For the follower of Jesus Christ, death is not a permament destruction, but rather a temporary "sleep" in which the very next conscious thought will be the experience of Jesus returning to restore the Earth to paradise. See here for more information: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fusea...

Jedi Ninja

CONTINUED FROM PREVIOUS POST: There will come a time in the future when all the dead will rise and becoming living once more. They will then be judged - the righteous unto eternal life in the Kingdom of God on a new and perfect Earth, and the unrirghteous will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will receieve the wages of their sin (Revelation 21:8), which is a second death (Ezekiel 18:4, Luke 13:3, Romans 6:23, Matthew 7:13, Revelation 21:8) - this time a permament death in which body and soul perish forever (Matthew 10:28) . This is also why John 3:16 says those who believe in Jesus "shall not perish". Billions of people who believe in Jesus have died and rotted in Sheol. They are no longer living. But they have not perished becuase their death is not permament. If something perishes, it is gone forever. But no one who has ever died is gone forever - all shall be raised again at the end of the age, when Jesus returns and everyone who has ever lived is judged. At that time, those who are thrown in the lake of fire will then perish, while the righteous will receieve eternal life in the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus used the word "sleep" synonymously with the word "death" (Luke 11:11-14). The dead are not conscious (Ecclesiastes 9:10) but because they will soon be raised to consciousness when Jesus returns, it is as if they are sleeping. When you die, the very next thing you will know is the resurrection. Perhaps thousands of years will pass between the moment you die and the moment Jesus returns and the dead are raised, but you will not be consciously aware of any of those years. This is why for the Apostle Paul, being absent from the body is synonymous with being present from the Lord. Death was no longer a foe for him, for he knew that if he died, the next thing he would know would be his Lord's return! Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. They are not alive in heaven (John 3:13). Why then did Jesus say that because YHWH is called "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" he is therefore "not the God of the dead but of the living"? In the context of the rest of Christ's teachings regarding the coming Kingdom of God and the future resurrections of the dead, the answer clear. Look at the context of the verse once more. Jesus was debating a group of Sadducees who do not believe in the future resurrection of the dead. Jesus used this Old Testament verse to prove that the future resurrection will indeed happen. God is the God of the living, so why then is he called "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob?" It's because Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are not permamently dead - from God's point of view (and God transcends time - a thousand years to God is like a single day) they will soon be resurrected back to life in the Kingdom of God when the resurrection of the dead occurs. This is why Jesus said, "He who believes in me shall live, even if he dies". Christians die every day. But for the believer in Jesus Christ, death is not permament. The unrighteous will perish permamently in the lake of fire when they experience the Second Death. The Christian will not, for all who trust in Jesus as their Lord will be raised again unto eternal life when Christ returns at the end of the age and the Kingdom of God is fulfilled on Earth. For the follower of Jesus Christ, death is not a permament destruction, but rather a temporary "sleep" in which the very next conscious thought will be the experience of Jesus returning to restore the Earth to paradise. See here for more information: http://bibletools.org/index.cfm/fusea...

Jedi Ninja

@LAHAWRI - Take a look at the context of Luke 20:38. Jesus was speaking to a group of Sadducees - a Jewish sect who believed that there will be no future resurrection of the dead. Since the central message of Christ's teaching is that there will be a future resurrection of the dead when the Kingdom of God is fulfilled on Earth, the Sadducees attempted to disprove what Christ was teaching about the Kingdom of God by tricking him with a puzzle regarding marriage in the resurrection. Their attempt failed, since Jesus said that "those who are considered worthy of taking part on that age and in the resurrection from the dead will neither marry nor be given in marriage." Jesus then went on to prove from the Old Testament that the future resurrection will indeed take place, by quoting Exodus 3:6, where Moses declared that YHWH is "the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and of Jacob." When Moses declared this, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob were all dead, and none of them were in heaven. Acts 2:34 says, "David did not go up to heaven". John 3:13 tells us that no one besides Jesus has ever gone to heaven - "No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man [Jesus Christ] who is in heaven." Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead and they are currently buried in the grave (Hebrew "sheol"). Sheol is sometimes mistranslated as "hell" but it literally means "grave". It cannot be hell in the Greco-Roman conception of hell as a "place of eternal seperation from God" becuase Psalm 139:8 and Amos 9:2 clearly tell us that YHWH is present even in Sheol. Sheol is the grave - a literal hole in the ground - and it is the place that all people go when they die. In Psalm 6:5 David fears that he is going to die, and he pleads for God to save his life, becuase if he is dead and in Sheol, he will no longer be able to praise God. The concept that David's soul would exist consciously in heaven when David dies contradicts not only this scripture (since David would be able to praise God in heaven) but the entire message of the Bible in general, especially other key scriptures such as Acts 2:34, which states that "David did not go up to heaven". Ecclesiastes 9:10 states "Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might; for there is no activity or planning or knowledge or wisdom in Sheol where you are going." This makes it extremely clear that the dead who are buried in the grave are not alive - they are literally dead and they are not conscious. There will come a time in the future when all the dead will rise and becoming living once more. They will then be judged - the righteous unto eternal life in the Kingdom of God on a new and perfect Earth, and the unrirghteous will be thrown into the lake of fire where they will receieve the wages of their sin (Revelation 21:8), which is a second death (Ezekiel 18:4, Luke 13:3, Romans 6:23, Matthew 7:13, Revelation 21:8) - this time a permament death in which body and soul perish forever (Matthew 10:28) . This is also why John 3:16 says those who believe in Jesus "shall not perish". Billions of people who believe in Jesus have died and rotted in Sheol. They are no longer living. But they have not perished becuase their death is not permament. If something perishes, it is gone forever. But no one who has ever died is gone forever - all shall be raised again at the end of the age, when Jesus returns and everyone who has ever lived is judged. At that time, those who are thrown in the lake of fire will then perish, while the righteous will receieve eternal life in the Kingdom of God. This is why Jesus used the word "sleep" synonymously with the word "death" (Luke 11:11-14). The dead are not conscious (Ecclesiastes 9:10) but because they will soon be raised to consciousness when Jesus returns, it is as if they are sleeping. When you die, the very next thing you will know is the resurrection. Perhaps thousands of years will pass between the moment you die and the moment Jesus returns and the dead are raised, but you will not be consciously aware of any of those years. This is why for the Apostle Paul, being absent from the body is synonymous with being present from the Lord. Death was no longer a foe for him, for he knew that if he died, the next thing he would know would be his Lord's return! Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are dead. They are not alive in heaven (John 3:13). Why then did Jesus say that because YHWH is called "The God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob" he is therefore "not the God of the dead but of the living"? In the context of the rest of Christ's teachings regarding the coming Kingdom of God and the future resurrections of the dead, the answer clear. Look at the context of the verse once more. Jesus was debating a group of Sadducees who do not believe in the future resurrection of the dead. Jesus used this Old Testament verse to prove that the future resurrection will indeed happen. God is the God of the living, so why

lahawri

In your material I did not see any mention of 2 Corinthians 5:8 which says in the NASB "we are of good courage, I say, and prefer rather to be absent from the body and to be at home with the Lord." Do you mean that we won't be present with the Lord until after the resurrection? Are the only ones present in heaven now is God, Jesus and the angels? Also in Luke 20:38 says "Now He is not the God of the dead but of the living; for all live to Him." I don't understand how you came to the conclusion that our spirits sleep in the grave along with our soul and bodies. How do you interpret the scriptures I just mentioned? Thanks.

la Bibliotecariamédica

Very interesant & clear information about this topic

psycholex

I like laughing at fools..

bill777

To Jedi ninja Yes the word of God is perfect and will never change. I don't have the time to look chapter and verse but, the word sead don't forsake the assembly of his people. The fact that you sead of no hell tells me you are taken in by the doctrine of that church. The statements that you made are from that doctrine. be careful. God Bless

Jedi Ninja

Don't worry, Bill, I do not follow any church. I follow Jesus. Churches are created by men, and thus they are filled with all the flaws of men, but the teachings of Jesus are perfect, and will never change.

bill777

To jedi ninja:I want to inform you with the love of God in my heart that the so called church of God is a cult. Go to google and search cri and then pick the first article on the top of the page then read the article by Hank on the church of God. Good luck and may God open your eyes.

bill777

OK fine if you don't believe in God why are you on a christian discussion group web site?

psycholex

HAHAHAHAHA!!Ur SOO funny! Seriously, that was a PATHETIC attempt at trying to scare me. "Oh no, sum made up BS hasnt written me in a book" :( How TeRrIbLe!! Seriously, listen to urself!! A small mind is easily filled with faith