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CANCEL
OK
NOTESANDCOMMENTARY:
OnMaoism:AnInterviewwith
J
ean-PaulSartre
*
Formorethantwoyearsyouhavebeendirectorof
LaCauseduPeuple.
You
»:
soldthepaperonthestreets,youwritemilitantarticles,y?U~\lork
~n
thenew
~arly
Liberation,
and
YOIl
havepmticipatedinmanyoftheMaoistsmeetingsandacttons.Youseemmuchclosertothemandmore
engaged
withthemtha.!}youwere
pre'
viouslywiththeCommunistPartyandwithliberationmovem~ntssuch.astheAlgerianFLN.Howdoyouexplainthis,anddidyoumake
this
deCISIOnattheoutset?
Sartre:
I
acceptedthedirectorshipof
LaCause
duPeuple
afterthearrestofthe
two
precedingdirectorsinthespringof1970.TheMaoi~tsdidnot.think~heyhadabaseofsupportbroadenoughtocarryouttheclan~estme
operation
whl~hthe
govern-
menttriedtoforcetheminto.TomeetboththisprocessandrepreSS1?n,theyca~eandaskedmetohelpthem.Thatrepresented,moreover,.anewattitudeon
their
partofinterestinintellectualsandinfindingouthowIntelle~tualscouldbe
of
servicetothem.Theymistrusted"super-stars"but,atthesame
time,
theyappealedtowell-knownintellectualswhocouldavertMarcellin'sattacks.Theyturnedtothenotionof"celebrity"backagainstthebourgeoisie-andtheywerenght.
I
~eelt~atthewell-knownwriterhasadoublerole:heishimself,andalsot~epubhc
t~tng
calledacelebrityoverwhichhehasnocontrolunlessherecovers
.It
toserve
In
a
completelydifferentways.Thatiswhat
I
did~ith
LaCause.duPeuple..
Atthebeginning,itwasclearthatIwasnot
1TI
agreeme~t.~Ithth~MaOISts,
nor
weretheywithme.Itookalegalandnotapolitical
responsibility.I
slmp.lygavemynamesothepapercouldcontinueandthemilitantscouldactandwriteastheyintendedto.Inthesameway,
I
acceptedthedirectorshipof
ToutVaBien;
andunderthesameconditions
I
wasawitnessatthetrialofmilitantsfrom
Vive
la
Revolution
andofRolandCastro.Throughaseriesofactionsandstrugglessincethen,
I
havebeendrawnprogressivelyclosertotheconceptionsof
LaCalise
du
Peuple.ThenyOIldisagreedwiththestrategyoftheproletarian.left
in
1970.that.aresistancehad
to
belaunchedagainstemployers,
considered
asnewNaZIS,againstrevisionists.consideredasnewcollaborators...
Sartre:I
haveneversharedthisanalysis;andalthoughtracesofitremain,
LaCa~se
dll
Peuple
itselfhaspartiallyrenouncedit.Forthelasttwoyearstheproblemfor
I~S
militantshasbeentoreallyadapttheMaoiststrategytoFrance,nottotranspose
!t
lockstockandbarrel.Theculturalrevolutionwasunleashed
111
Chinawellaftertheseiz~reofpower.
It
isimpossibletocopyitor~o.bedirectlyi~fluenc.edbyitin
.OU~
situation.TheFrenchMaoistsspeakmorewillinglyofanIdeologl~alrev?lutJOn.liquidatingthebeliefincapitalism.amongth~.workers,notablybykld.nappmgs,
by
teachingresistance,bravingrepression,and
nsmg
abovethedeferencetncul~ated
by
thedominant
class.
At
the
start,
I
agreedwiththeMaoistsonalmost
nothing:
not
new
and
,..OriginallypublishedinNumber28
of
Actuel
andreprintedin
ToutVaBien.
Number
4,
February20-March20,1973.pp.30·35.ItwasconductedbyMichel-AntoineBumier.EnglishtranslationisbyRobertD'Amico.
NOTES/
93
against"them,butquiteapartfromthem.Butlittlebylittle,theyhavewonmorethanlegalprotectionfromme.
I
metoftenwiththemandlinkedmyselftothem:littlebylittleaconvergencedeveloped.
Youhavehardlyexplainedthemeaningofthis
action.In
1952,
whenyouwerereconciledwiththeCommunistParty.youwrotethreelongarticles
"Les
Communisteset:faPaix."Separatingyourselfin
1956
from
theFrench
Communist
PartywhichhadsupportedtheSovietinterventioninHungary,
you
publishedthe"FantbmedeStaline."Today,
YOII
sticktobriefarticles,allopentellertothePresidentoftheRepublic,andinterventionsatmeetings.Youhave
definitely
brokenwiththeFrenchCommunistParty'ssystemofthought-which
ill
generalyouaccepted,despite
reservations,
untilabout
1965-1966-without
clearlysayingwhyandwithoutgivingreasonsforyourpresentcloseinvolvementwiththeMaoists.
Sartre:In1952,Americanpolitics,thesubmissionoftheFrenchgovernmenttoimperialism,andaboveall,therepressionofthedemonstrationagainst"Ridgwaylapeste"movedmequicklytowardapositionofsolidaritywiththeCommunists.
It
wasverynecessarythat
I
explainmyaction.As
I
toldyou,
I
arrivedatmypresentpositionmuchmoregradually.First,inMay'68,likemostpeopleIdidnotunder-standthesignificanceorimportofthemovement.NeitherdidtheMaoists,whoimmediatelylefttheuniversitiesforthefactorieswithoutevaluatingastudentrevoltwhoseimportancetheynowrecognize.
I
eltestranged:onedayacelebrity,thenextdayanoldcombatant.AttheSorbonne,towhichIreturnedtwoorthreetimes,mypresencecreatedsomeoppositionand
I
wasreceivedalittlecoldly.
I
rememberameetingontheuniversitysituationattheendof1968
or:
thebeginningof1969,atwhichstudentsandprofessorshadtodecidetheirresponsetotheDegarFaurelaw.Mountingtherostrum,
I
oundanoteonthetable:"Sartre,bebriefl"Iunderstoodimmediatelythat
I
wasoutofit.Theotherspeaker'sideaswereclosetomine,buttheyhadseenthestruggletheyweretalkingaboutandcouldadvanceconcreteproposals.
I
hadnoproposalstooffer,simplyageneralanalysis-whichhadlittlesignificance.Aftertheebbin1969,Ifeltfartherawayagain.In1970everythingchanged.Thegovernment'spersecutionof
LaCauseduPeuple
ledmetotakesidesandgomuchfurtherthan
I
hadoriginallyimagined.
A
revolutionarymovementhasitsrequirements;youacceptsomeandrefuseothers,butitdrawsyouin.Especiallywhenitsleaderstakeintoconsiderationoutsidecritiquestheyregardaswellfounded.Here,theoryisingestationandthemovementremainslargelyempirical,
1
woulddaresay,almostexperimental.
011
tlzecontrary,itseemstomethattheMaoistideologyisvery
rigid,
withenergeticsloganeering,
Sartre:Whenthequestionisapreciseactionatagivenmoment.Butthemilitants
of
LaCauseduPeuple
donotconstituteaparty.
It
isapoliticalgroup
[rassemble-
ment]
whichcanalwaysbedissolved.
A
strikecommitteewithbroadrecruitmentcanabsorbthecommitteesforstruggleorganizedbytheMaoistsinthefactory.ThisprocedureallowsawayoutoftherigidityinwhichtheCommunistPartyhasimprisoneditself.
Isn'tthere.parallelingthis.anotherrealityofMaoism.namelythefirstMaoistsof1965atL"EcoleNormaleSuperieurwhofannedaIzardsectariannucleusand
94/
TELOS
survivedtheorganizationalchanges?Therealdecisionsweremadesecretly,apartfromthemass
of
militantsandalliedorganizationssuch
as
SecoursRouge
orthe
Yerite-Iustice
committeeswithwhichtheleadershipmaintainedrelationsojsubju-gationandinfiltrationsomewhatcomparabletothosethatlinkthepeacemovementtotheCommunistParty.
Sartre:Therehasbeenthat.Butyoucannotdefinetheleadersasasectariangroup.TheyhavenothingtodowiththePolitburoofaCommunistParty.Foracommu-nist,anon-communistisadiminishedindividualwhomonerejectsoruses.CommunistshaverelationsofreciprocityonlywithPartymembers.Othersareplacedinnegativeorinstrumentalrelationships.TheMaoistleaders.vontheotherhand,stateasaprinciplethatnon-MaoistscanhaveapointofviewasinterestingastheMaoists'andthatitmustbelistenedto.
If
thereisanauthoritariantendency,itisconstantlyquestionedinanycasebytheMaoists'actions.
Then.howdoyouexplainthedisappearance
ojJ'accuse?
Thatpaperwanted
to
bedemocraticandopen,andthenonefineday
it
turnsupintegratedinto
LaCauseduPeuple
underthesoledirectionojMaoists.
Sartre:
J'accuse
essentiallyfailedforfinancialreasons.Thepaperdidnotsellenough,anditturnedoutthatthemoremilitantformulaof
LaCauseduPeuple
wasbetterforcirculation.InacertainwayIregretthis.Today,with
Liberation,
wearetryingouttheexperienceofademocraticdailypaperinwhichMaoistsen-countereachother,andinwhichwealsoposeacertainnumberofproblems-sex-uality,theconditionofwomen,everydaylife-includingthosewhichraisecontra-dictionsintheheartofthepeople.
It
isclear,forexample,thatthemajorityoftheworkingclass,whateverthefeelingsorbehaviorofindividuals,remainshostiletocertainformsofsexualliber-ationandtohomosexuality.Youknowthisstoryaboutaneventthatoccuredseveralmonthsago:usinganairpump,somegarageworkerspumpeduponeoftheircom-radeswhowasahomosexualandkilledthefellow.
Liberation
willalsointerveneinthesequestionstopromotedevelopment.
It
acceptstheriskofoccasionalunpopu-larityandofelicitingviolentreactionsorindifference.Alltheanti-hierarchicalandlibertarianideasmustgainrecognitioninthepaperthroughaconfrontationinwhichtheMaoists'experimentaltendencyprevailsovertheauthoritarianside.Will
Liberation
heameltingpot?Willitnecessarilyleadtoanewsynthesis?AsyetIdon'tknow.Taketheexampleofwomen'sliberation.RepresentativesofMLF
[MouvemelltdelaLiberationdesFemmes]
participatedagainyesterdayatameetingtopreparethepaper.Theythinkthatthereisaproperfemininedimensionintherevolutionarystruggle:otherwisepeoplerelapseintothetraditionalschemasthatsafeguardsexismeveninvictoriousrevolutions,suchas1789and1917.Nowhereisagroup,composedofworkers,butalsobourgeoisie,whoseethemselvesasrevolutionaryinreferringfirstandforemosttotheconditionofwomen.Onthecontrary,theMaoistsproceedfromclassstruggle,andconsidertheproletarianrevolutionaprioritywhichwilleventuallyentailtheliberationofwomen.Cantheseopposedviewsbereconciled?
If
theunificationismadeinfavoroftheMaoists,womenwillrepresentaminoritytendencyinamaleparty;ifthewomenprevail,theideaofproletarianrevolutionwillgivewaytoafermentinganti-authoritarianism.Willanewpathbefoundtodealwithboththesedemands?
YougivetheimpressionthattheMaoistmovementiscomposedessentially
of
males.
NOTES/
95
Sartre:Therearewomen,butinmy
0
inionthed'theyaretoofewandoftentimidIremepbY'onthaveequalstatusbecause
Peuple
wasinprettybadsh'Thmerameetinglastyearwhen
LaCausedu
..ape..ewomenpresentidthilOtervenedonaminorpointofwome'd
sal.~IO
mg,exceptonewhoex~la[ntheirpositiononwomen'sliber~t~one:~n~~.Iinsistedthatthemilitantsarticleappearedsignedbyawomam.ilit,
t
~tthewomenspeak.ThenanwithnoreferencetotheMaois]ide
mhl
I
an'lrlepeatmgallthethemesoftheMLFasseusuaydevelopedThisrIstandardofconsciousness:internallth'.'IS.l~veaedadoubledisappearedcompletelyintheirmi1ir~nt:twome~~usta~nedafemml,nerevoltwhichalivelyreactionfromworkerswhosawit~~c:earticle
WiIS
published,itelicitedveryserious-andtherethematterremains.symptomofagitationthatwasnot
After
Iwo
orthreeyearsa/practice,howd
I.·.
Maoists?ThevId'I.'
a
youevaIUlle.lhe
slrategrc
course
0/
the.."pace
111
tneforeground
a
certai
b.-,'.
cO/cenung
thesituation
a
"imn'igraf
1
kd:
IIIWII!
er
oJ
essenf.wlIdeas
...:J,.
I
worersan
factory
prod
ni
T
J.
ItIS
alsoundeniablethattheir
volunt'..I,uc'tonrnytnms.But
fi
J...
.artsmancvanguardism
ria
fuit
t]
Ior
tnem,
III
thelong
runmall
Ism
athiz...
eenavan
ost
attractedbtl..b
'II'.'.
J.
YP
zersandmilitantswhowere
initially
ynetrru
Will
actions
1
amstruck
b
ti
I
years,
LaCauseduPeuple
h
db"
hiYteexampte
atToulollse.FortwoaeenaetoCOuntonahundrd1'1
'li
severalhundreds)'mpathi7er.r-
I'h'I.
resotcnit
itant
sand
-J
lIIlICIS
aot
Last
year
,f.'.,
Ilib'
Geismar,therewereonlyadozenleftand
theC..
I,.
~Jl-erIIe
I
erauonofbuildupattendance.'..Ie
ornmums
t
eague
hadtocometo
~~~~r::S~~dt~t~~:~t~~~trollglinerallieda~embershipchieflycomposedofinrel-specificcase;,thepopura~r~e~~e~l~::h:o~t~~II~~e~SllaI1Y(~idIIlO~control.ExceptinlutiollaryviolenceTheMaoistshdtexcessiveyaruptcalJstorevo-sympathy,TheyiJ~mediatelao.proceedstepbysteptofindpopularbrutall~repressedandmisu~;~~:~~e~e:n~~~~~/~rPO!11byhurlingthe~selvesintoaafractionoftheuniversityandhighhIadenthoughtheydidcarryalong..sc
00
stuents.ThehardlinelostSomemilitantsthidIthemgo.TodaytheMaoistscriticiISI~ay,an
a.
sobecausetheorganizationlerwanttobethe"eftandto.
t
clzeban.bre~~au
t
ofthenotionofleftism:theyTcreaearoadpoliticalorganizatio[
!
]
heyhaveattemptedtodothisaroundthe
Ve
'tt!
J'
",n
ra~sem
7
ement,
bylittlethenotionofrevoluti.
ti
1'1,-
_lIstlcecomrmtreesInwhichlittlejustice..'B...onary
JU~
Iceclarifiestheapplicationofbourgeoi,,as
III
may-en-ArtolsoratSalllt-LaurentdP'tThmitteesforstrugglenolongerdeend.-u-om...,.e~attorycom-sensethatgroupsandpartiesul](iersta~~i~a?lsts.alone:.theyreject'polItiCS-inthetheworker'sdemandsanddailycombat.
In
Oldertolootrevoluuonaryactionin
,Tht
I~atois:s
d~
notwant
t?
dealwithmereintellectuals;andforthemostpartitIS
In
eecua:whohavequit,Nonetheless,thelineofpoliticaldemocracthe'~~~~I~~u~~1~cispon~lsd
t~
theill'needtoenlargeth~irfieldofaction,infactori:san~...sguseytrecultureandlaborImposedonthemThisv'dlHeralrcl~lcal~dlibertarianmovement,whichmustbetakeninto'consider:~:o~n\l~eveopIngWithoutyetbeing.fh.,.istrbI.:.veryconscious
0
w
at
it
wantsorwhatitisdoing.This.ueot
I
in
t~ehIghschools
[/yc6es]
andinthesuburbs.Inthisregardthel~:e:s.eo~th,eftsIn~rged.epartmentstoresissignificant.Thisisnothabitualtheft:.~c
t
~;~/esareafd~rmlatlOnofproperty-"thisobjectishis;Itakeit;itismine';ueasarateachallengetoproperty,
MaoistshavelongneglectedtheyouthrevoltinallWestemindustrialcou
I..
I
underground,thecounter-culture.therevolutioninindividu«!arid
IlC:!I~:~~'::
96ITELOS
behavior,communes,drugs,androckmusic-whichseemsallthe.mor.eimport~ntsinceitasserteditselfasaninternationallanguagecommontoumvers.ltyandhigh.schoolstudents,andyoungworkersinthe
U.S.
andEurope.Bypreservinganexclu-sivelypoliticalattitude.
LaCauseduPeuple
isleftout.
Sartre:Thiswasthecaseupto1970,whentheMaoistsconceivedthem~elvesas.astrictlypolitical
party.
Theyunderstood,however,thattheyw~rescrewedIftheyd.ldnotreconsidertheirmethodsandtheirbaseofsupport.WeJustspokeaboutthis:thecommitteesofstruggle,theV~rite-Justicecommittees,and
Liberation
expr~ssthisconcern.Theanti-hierarchicandlibertarianmovementgoesbeyondtheMaoistcircle,whichnonethelesstakesitintoconsideration.ButalthoughitheginsneartheMaoists,
it
endsupquitefaraway.Weareinsympathywiththeundergroundandthecounter-culture-itremainstobeseenifalltheirdemonstrationscanplayapositiveroleinourdirection.Certaintendenciesrefuseordiscourageaction,andthenInolongerseetheirutility.
Whatdoyouthinkoftheincreasinglywidespreaduseofmarijuana?
Sartre:Ontheindividuallevelitappearstometohavenogreatimportance.Ihavesmoked
it:
Igotonlyafeelingofanesthesiaandsomecuriousandlimite~sen-sations.Eachhastherighttodowhathewants;andtheStatemustnotobjecttothis.Similarly,inthecaseofheroin-which,asopposedtohallucinogens,pr~se?tsrealdangers-inthenameofwhatwillthelawpr.eve~tpe?plefromcom.rmttmgsuicide?Forme,theproblemhereisalsotodetermineIftheiruseofhallucl~?gensdemobilizesmilitants.IknowthattheAmericanWeathermensmokedmarijuanabetweenmilitantactionsanditletthemunwind.ButwhenIseethatsomeconsidertherecoursetohallucinogensasufficientaffirmationoftheirfreedom,andthenexcusethemselvesfromaction,Iwonder.
Anothertendencyofcounter-culture;ecology...
Sartre:Thatisequallypartoftheprojectwewishtoundertakewith
Liberation.
Idon'tthinkthesocietywhichwillbebornofarevolutioncanbeasocietyofgrowth.Toproduceforpeople,ofcourse,butnolongertry.!~produceb~ggerand?ettermarkets.Withoutregressing,thenatureofcommoditiesandtheirmodeofpro-duction
wil]
havetobeprofoundlytransformed.Luxuryob_jectsor.d.an~erous.manu-facturingwillhavetobeeliminated,ahumanandecologicalequilibrium
Will
h~vetoberecovered.Inindustrialcountriesproductionneednotbeincreasedtosatisfyneeds:itissufficienttosupressprofitandwasteandtoal!ertheend~of.th.eeconomyandthedistributionofwealth.OnlysocialismprovidesasolutionIfItdoesn'tendupinproductivismandSovietcentralism.
Chinaisnoteconomizing.TheChinesemagazineswereceiveintheWestexalt.themachine,growthandindustrialization-whic!lseems.legitimatefor.a
COU!lt.'y
justmovingbeyondthemiseryofpoverty-but
it
doesntdefinearadicallydifferentmodelofdevelopment.
Sartre:
It
isn'tthatsimple.Tome,theconstructionofsmallfactoriesinthe~eartofruralcommunesisaninterestingexperience,andanoriginalwaytoabolishthedivisionoflaborandlimitthespreadofcitiesandpollution.
ThenhowdoyouassessthepoliticalsituationinChinasincetheendoftheculturalrevolutionandthedisappearanceofLinPiao?
NOTESI97
I
Sartre:Chinare-establishedorderunderthedirectionoftheParty.Thatwaspredictable,sincetheculturalrevolutionwasmadebythebasebutundertheauthorizationandcontrolofasectionoftherulingapparatus.OncethesituationopenedupandMao'spowerwasre-established,themovementwasstoppedbycallinginthearmyandthenreorganizingtheParty.Externally,Chinahasabandonedastrictlyinternationalistpolitics-aidingallrevolutionarieswherevertheyare--preferringthepowerpoliticsofagreatnation.ThiswasevidentinCeylonandPakistan,whenChinesediplomacyreliedonthegovernmentsinpowerratherthanthepopularinsurrections,
r
Even
during
the
cultural
revolution,theleadersneverpubliclydiscussed
the
greatquestionsonwhichtheywereindisagreement.Otherthansomelateandfrag-mentaryinformation,
we
areignorantofthetermsofthedebateamongMaoTse-tung,ChouEn-laiandLinPiao.DoweevenknowwhetherLinPiaowaseliminatedasanover-ambitiousannychiefor
as
arepresentativeoftheLeft?
l
I
I
I
Sartre:Probablyboth.ThedisappearanceofLinPiaoundeniablycorrespondstoaretreat.
Yet,
theculturalrevolutionwasanintrusionofthemassesintopoliticallife;andthepastcanneverreturn.Somedaythemovementmayreappear.Thewaytheyhaveabandoneditforhopeintheslogansofthetimenecessitatesasuccessionofculturalrevolutions.
DoyouthinkarevolutioncantakeplaceinFranceinthenearornottoodistantfuture?
Sartre:TenyearsagoIdidn'tbelievesoatall.NowIdo:capitalismanditsinsti-tutionshavedeterioratedsobadlythatarevolutionappearsprobable.Iamnotsureatallifitcouldsurviveagainstthehostilityofothercountries.Despitefaminesandblockades,SovietRussiasucceededanddeveloped.Buttakingintoaccountinternalcounter-revolutionandforeignpressureIdon'tseehowacountrylikeFrancecanbeself-sufficientinthesamewayasanimmense,mainlyagriculturalcountry.Howeverthatpointstoamoregeneralproblem.ThereisstillnoMarxisttheoryofrevolutionandtherevolutionaryStateindevelopedcountries.Alongtimeago-beforethewat-IhadalreadyseenproofthattheCommunistPartydidnottrulydesirerevo-lutionsinceithadnotengagedinanyseriousstudyofwhatwouldhappen
if
ittookpower.Forrevolutionariestoday,thisideologicalandscientificworkseemstobeahighpriorityevenifitisstillrestrictedtoexpertsandintellectuals.
inthe
U.S.,
in
Germanyand
Amsterdam,communesandgroupsofmilitantsaretryingonasmallscaletocreatecounter-institutionsoralternativewaysoflife,allembryonicnewsociety.Althoughthisexperiencehassometimesfallenshort.
it
hasbeenveryusefulinhelpingformthosewhoparticipatedinit.inFrance,theMaoistshardlyfavorthedevelopmentofcounter-institutions,exceptjudiciarieswithpopulartribunals.AtBruay-en-Artois...
Sartre:AtBruay,thereneverwasapopulartribunal.
No,buttheV€rit€-Justicecommitteeshadfinallytakenthatroleinopenlyaccusing,withcircumstantialevidence.thatthenotaryLeroyhadmurderedtheyounggirlBrigitte.
LaCauseduPeuple
violentlydemandedthepunishmentofthesupposedculprit,Wasthisajudiciousbattle?Don't
YOl
thinktheMaoistshavetakenrisksandgon.etoofar?