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#72 — Privacy and Security: A Conversation with Gen. Michael V. Hayden

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In this episode of the Making Sense podcast, Sam Harris speaks with General Michael V. Hayden about the reality of spying, the difference between the NSA and the CIA, the ethics of secrecy, Edward Snowden, the Russian Hacking of the 2016 US Presidential election, and other topics.  You can support the Making Sense podcast and receive subscriber-only content at

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