m OF






A Division of HarperCoWmsPublishers


© 1968 by Allan Bloom © 1991
by Allan Bloom

Preface to the paperback edition copyright

Library of Congress Catalog Number: 68-54141

ISBN 0^65-06935-5 {cloth) ISBN 0-^65-06936-3 (first edition paper) ISBN 0-465-O6934-7 {second edition paper)
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To my mother and





teach the Republic now, the reactions to



more urgent and

a quarter-century ago when I was working on and this interpretation. The Republic is, of course, a permanent book, one of the small number of books that engage the interest and sympathy of thoughtful persons wherever books are esteemed and read in freedom. No other philosophic book so powerfully expresses the

more intense than they were
this translation


longing for justice while satisfying the intellect's demands for

excitement, and disagreement
say, "This

The problems ofjustice as presented by Plato arouse more interest, at some points than at others. When nonis

philosophers begin their acquaintance with philosophers, they frequently

nonsense." But sometimes they say, "This



such moments their passions really become involved with the philosophers, frequently culminating in hatred or in love. Right
nonsense," and


both attractive and repulsive to the young. most obvious when they reach the section of the Republic where Socrates legislates about music. Between the late 1940s and the mid-1960s there was a lull in music's power over the soul, between the declining magnetism of high romanticism and the surge of rock, and music was not much of a practical or theoretical problem for students. They took note of the fact that Socrates is for censorship a no-no, of course and went on, not taking much account of what in particular is being censored. If forced to think about it, they tended to be surprised that music above all




Preface to the Second Edition

should be the theme of censorship
frenzy has resumed

when what seemed




be the

hkely candidates were science, poHtics, and sex. But


that musical

natural place, Socrates

seen to be both pertinent

and dangerous. Discussion is real and intense, fo^^ocrates understands the charms erotic, military, political, and religious of music, which he takes to be the most authentic primitive expressions of the soul's hopes and terrors./But, precisely because music is central to the soul and the

musicians are such virtuosos


plucking its chords, Socrates argues that it


how the development of the passions affects the whole of life and how musical pleasures may conflict with duties or other, less immediate pleasures ./This is intolerable, and many students feel that
imperative to think about
the whole Socratic understanding
said, the

subversive of their establishment. As






always returns with the change of human


Another theme, not unrelated to music, also suddenly became current in the late 1960s and remains central to general and professional discussion about politics: community, or roots. And again the republic becomes peculiarly attractive and repulsive because no book describes community so precisely and so completely or undertakes so rigorously to turn cold politics into family warmth. In the period just after World War II, no criticism of what Karl Popper called "the open society" was brooked. The open society was understood to be simply unproblematic, having solved
the difficulties presented by older thinkers.

The progress

of science was

understood to be

strictly paralleled

seemed no

threat to





softening in

by that of society; individualism and mass society no threat to meaningful this narrow liberal position can be seen in

the substitution in


discourse of the less positively charged term

technology for science, the pervasive doubt about whether the mastery of

good idea, and a commonly expressed sentiment of lostness and powerlessness on the part of individual citizens. In the days of thoughtless optimism, Plato was considered irrelevant and his criticism was not available to warn us of possible dangers. Now it is recognized that he had all the doubts we have today and that the founding myth of his city treats men and women as literally rooted in its soil. Everybody is sure that Plato knew something about community, but he makes today's comfortable communitarians uncomfortable by insisting that so much individuality must be sacrificed to community. Moreover, they rightly sense that Plato partly parodies the claims and the pretensions of

a very

community. The uninvolved Socrates, distrustful of neat solutions, does not appear to be a very reliable ally of movements. Plato, criticized in the recent past for not being a good liberal, is now shunned for not being a wholehearted communitarian. He is, however, back in the game. But, above all, the Platonic text is now gripping because of its very




Preface to the Second Edition

more than up-to-date treatment of the "gender question." In a stunning demonstration of the power of the philosophic imagination, Plato

our own day proving thereby that reason can penetrate to the essentials at any time or place. /Perfect justice, Socrates argues in the dialogue, can be achieved only
treats the question as

was never again treated up


by suppression of the distinction between the sexes in all important matters and the admission of women on an equal footing to all activities of the city, particularly the most important, fighting and thinking. Corollary to this is the virtual suppression of the bodily differences between the sexes and all the psychic affects habitually accompanying those differences, especially shame, which effectively separates women from men. In consequence, Socrates further recognizes that there must be a revolution in the family in which its functions are transferred to the community, so that women will not have to bear the double burden of career mothers. Day-care centers, abortion, and the desacralization of marriage are only a few of the easily recognizable elements of this revolution in favor of synthesizing the opposites


into the unity,




sacrificing all the

activists even find Socrates' analysis too radical, charms of family ties to rational considerations of justice.


corrosive of the mysteries of human connectedness.

Others rightly suspect that Socrates
factual equality of women. Socrates

not sufficiently convinced of the

ally, but he marks the starting point of something that would be unimaginable if he had not thought it through. One can search in other historical epochs and cultures, but the foundations of this perspective v^dll not be found elsewhere. They are inextricably linked to the founder of political philosophy. For students the story of man bound in the cave and breaking the bonds, moving out and up into the light of the sun, is the most memorable from their encounter with the Republic. This is the image of every serious student's profoundest longing, the longing for liberation from convention in order to live according to nature, and one of the book's evidently permanent aspects. The story still exercises some of its old magic, but it

again the questionable

now encounters a fresh obstacle,
substituted for myth.
possible and that

for the meaning of the story is that truth is Today students are taught that no such substitution is there is nothing beyond myth or "narrative." The myths
it is

of the most primitive cultures are not,

from and women must bend to the power of my th rather than try to shuck it off as philosophy wrongly used to believe. Socrates, who gaily abandons the founding myth or noble lie he
said, qualitatively different

the narratives of the most rigorous science.


himseff made up for the sake of the


looks quixotic in this light. This can

be disheartening

to the

young person who



can be a beginning

of philosophy, for he

perplexed by a real

difficulty in his

own breast.


another case where Platonic radicalism

particularly timely for us.




Preface to the Second Edition

terms of my own experience of these last twenty-five years, after the Republic I translated Rousseau's Emile, the greatest modem book
Finally, in

on education. Rousseau was one of the great readers of Plato, and from my time on that work I gained an even greater respect for the Republic. Emile is its natural companion, and Rousseau proved his greatness by entering the lists in worthy combat with it. He shows that Plato articulated first and best all the problems, and he himself differs only with respect to some of the solutions. If one takes the two books together, one has the basic training necessary for the educational wars. And wars they are, now that doctrine tells us that these two books are cornerstones of an outlived canon. So, I conclude, the Republic is always useful to students who read it, but now

more than


tions for this second edition. I

have corrected many minor mistranslations or misleading formulamust also add that there are certainly many more I did not catch. This is regrettable but inherent in the nature of the task and the nature of this translator.
Paris, iggi







intended to be a

literal translation.

My goal—unattained—was the

accuracy of William of Moerbeke's Latin translations of Aristotle. These versions are so faithful to Aristotle's text that they are authorities for the correction of the Greek manuscripts, and they enabled Thomas Aquinas to become a supreme interpreter of Aristotle without knowing Greek. Such a translation is intended to be useful to the serious student, the one who wishes and is able to arrive at his own understanding of the work. He must be emancipated from the tyranny of the translator, given the means of transcending the limitations of the translator's interpretation, enabled to discover the subtleties of the elusive original. The only way to provide the reader with this independence is by a slavish, even if sometimes cumbersome, literalness— insofar as possible always using the same English equivalent for the same Greek word. Thus the little difficulties which add up to major discoveries become evident to,
or at least are not hidden from, the careful student.



should conceive of himself as a medium between a master whose depths he has not plumbed and an audience of potential students of that master who may be much better endowed than is the translator. His greatest vice is to believe he has adequately grasped the teaching of
his author. It


who do

least of all his function to render the work palatable to not wish, or are unable, to expend the effort requisite to





the study of difficult texts. Nor should he try to make an ancient mode of thought sound "contemporary." Such translations become less useful




paid to the


At the very


one can say that
felicitous rendi-

a literal translation

a necessary supplement to
their original.


which deviate widely from


difference from age to age in the notions of the translator's rein itself a chapter of intellectual history. Certainly the


popularization of the classics

one part of that chapter. But there


be two major causes for the current distaste for literal translain the historical science of our time, the other rooted a specific, and I believe erroneous, view of the character of Platonic

—one rooted


The modern

historical consciousness has

engendered a general

"world views," except for that one of which it is itself a product. There seems to be an opinion that the thought of the past is immediately accessible to us, that, although we may not accept it, we at least understand it. We apply the tools of our science to the past without reflecting that those tools are also historically limited. We do not sufficiently realize that^he only true historical objectivity is to understand the ancient authors as they understood themselves/and we are loath to assume that perhaps they may be able to criticize our framework and our methodsAVe should, rather, try to see our historical science in the perspective of their teachings rather than
scepticism about the truth of
the other

way around. jMost of


we must

accept, at least tentativeis

the claim of the older thinkers that the truth
efforts of

potentially attainable

unaided human reason at all times and in all places. If we begin by denying the fundamental contention of men like Plato and Aristotle, they are refuted for us from the outset, not by any immanent criticism but by our unreflecting acceptance of the self-contradictory principle that all thought is related to a specific age and has no grasp of reality beyond that age./On this basis, it is impossible to take them

by the



often suspects that this




lacking in


translations: they are not

animated by the passion

for the truth; they

are really the results of elegant trifling. William of

Moerbeke was

motivated by the concern that sels about the most important wiser than he. His knowledge very happiness, depended on totle's real meaning.
studies of classic thinkers,

he might miss the most important counthings, counsels emanating from a man of the world and his way of life, nay, his
the success of his quest to get at Arisso

Today men do not generally believe and there is an



at stake in their

inclination to smile at naive

scholastic reverence for antiquity. But that smile should fade


it is





realized that this sense of superiority


merely the perseveration of the

confidence, so widespread in the nineteenth century, that science


reached a plateau overlooking broader and more comprehensible horizons than those previously known, a confidence that our intellectual progress could suffer no reverse. This confidence has almost vanished; few scholars believe that our perspective is the authoritative one any longer; but much scholarship still clings to the habits which grew up in

shadow of that






not a justified convic-

tion, if


are really at sea so far as the truth of things goes, then our

most evident categories are questionable, and we do not even know whether we understand the simplest questions Plato poses. It then behooves us to rediscover the perspective of the ancient authors, for the sake both of accurate scholarship and of trying to find alternatives to the current mode of understanding things. It is not usually understood how difficult it is to see the phenomena as they were seen by the older writers. It is one of the most awesome undertakings of the mind, for we have divided the world up differently, and willy-niU v we apply our terms, and hence the thoughts behind them, to the things discussedAJt is always the most popular and questionable terms of our own age that seem most natural; it is virtually impossible to speak without using them. For example, H. D. P. Lee, in describing his view of a translator's responsibility, says, "The translator must go behind what Plato said and discover what he means, and if, for example, he says 'examining the beautiful and the good' must not hesitate to render this as 'discussing moral values' if that is in fact the way in which the same thought would be expressed today." {The Republic [London: Penguin, 1956], p. 48.) But if one hurries too quickly "behind" Plato's .speech, one loses the sense of the surface. Lee shares with Cornford and many other translators the assurance that they have a sufficient understanding of Plato's meaning, and that that meaning is pretty much the kind of thing Englishmen or Americans already think. However, it might be more prudent to let the reader decide whether "the beautiful and the good" are simply equivalent to "moral values." If they are the same, he will soon enough find out. And if they are not, as may be the case, he will not be prevented from finding that out and thereby putting his own
opinions to the test.A In fact "values, in this sense,
is a usage of German origin popularized by sociologists in the last seventy-five years. Implicit in this usage is the distinction between "facts and values" and the conse-

quence that ends or goals are not based on


but are mere individual

subjective preferences or, at most, ideal creations of the






Cornford. This is a subtle question. i doubt that it is often misleading. He made a rather heavy joke at the pense of an earlier translator: [ xiv ] .and the beautiful or noble need not always be good or just. the pre-history of our current wisdom of some importance so that the inadequacies of the traditio teaching. p. how could the stud ever find out that there was once another way of looking at these th the case t had some plausibility? The text becomes a mirror it. Or. Kantian morality. And it may also be the case that these two elements are not always wholly in harmony. 1956]. one of which lends a certain splendor to it which lacking in. is unsophisticat When that r\ prejudged for him in this way. v. one that requires Ion study. There further m used. ridicules literal translation and insists that it is often " misleading. some in philosonh But/in Plato there are no moral virtues. and beyond to the whole dispute about the status of morality. or tedious. F. as we find them first describeH " still 1 in Aristotle's Ethics. or pompous and verbose" {The Republic [New York: Oxford University Press. is or treat them as facts themselves. but one that leads to the heart of the difference between Plat and Aristotle. for example. M. The issue is whether a certain spurious charm—for it is not Plato's charm—is worth the loss of awareness of Plato's problems necessitated by Comford's notions about translation It is only because he did not see the extent of the loss that he could b so cavalier with the original. whose translation is now the one most widely is wrath. for examnlp and the good" do add up to • i Achilles' matter for reflection here. as Nietzsche put themselves buried. Thus the translator hides another issue. punishment. some of which find their roots in the city.one might learn a great deal if one could follow such problems throughout Plato's works. or grotesque and silly. although I ad|nit that it may often lack the beauty of the original. and thus that the Plato who seems to de " them from facts.). It is only in this way that a student might reconstruct a plausible and profound Platonic view of the world rather than find the dialogues a compendiu of unconvincing platitudes. the word "values" coniures a series of thoughts which are alien to Plato. Every school child kn that values are relative. may become clear Similarly. the scholars dig up what th Even if Plato is wrong. And even if "th beautiful what we mean by morality it well that the student should know that for Plato morality is composed of two elements.preface Whether the translator intends it or not. which necessitated its replacement. the word "moral" is inappropriate. The good or the iust need not always be beautiful or poble. say. in which he s only himself." There is a teaching about th virtues. It is questionabl whether Plato had a "moral philosophy.

speech or reason] mixed with music. The question raised here is whether all vulgar virtue. None of this would appear from Comford's version. vi. There may be some truth in this. Now. There is no food for reflection here. 'Argument [or reads as follows. but for other advantages following upon it. [he is] not pure in his attachment to virtue. but only after reading widely in other parts of the book would he discover that it was not quite what Plato meant by describing logos. But virtue has been a theme from the beginning of the Republic. .Preface One who opened Jowett's version at random and lighted on the statement (at 549B) that the best guardian for a man's "virtue" is "philosophy tempered with music. As a matter of fact^the whole issue of the book is whether one of the virtues. all nonphilosophic practice of the virtues. p." might run away with the idea that in order to avoid irregular relations with women. This is the same critique Aristotle makes of Sparta. have disappeared and have been replaced by a sentence meaningless in itself and unillumined by the carefully prepared antecedents which were intended to give the thought special significance. and it has received a most subtle treatment. . as the only sure safeguard oi arete (ibid. no matter how hard the student of the text might think about it. it is the kind of sentence one finds in newspaper editorials. He even suppresses Adeimantus' question so that the entire atmosphere of perplexity disappears. It uses commonplace terms which have no precise significance. without being puzzled. the original terms.). Corriford's version not thoroughly sound. having been abandoned by .' the best guardian 'What's that?' Adeimantus said. is choiceworthy in itself or only for its accessory advantages/ Socrates in this passage teaches that a man of the Spartan type—the kind of man most reputed for virtue really does not love virtue for its own sake. " There is no doubt that one can read the sentence as it appears in Comford without being drawn up short.' — [ XV ] . for lack of the only safeguard that can preserve it throughout life. a " thoughtful and cultivated mind. Virtue has become character. Adeirnantus is an admirer of Sparta. . he had better play the violin in the intervals of studying metaphysics.. . and Socrates has been trying to . ". Secretly he believes money is truly good. justice. is based upon expectation of some kind of further reward or not. But no matter how widely one reads in Comford's translation. ." A literal rendering would be '. one cannot clarify this sentence or connect it with the -general problems developed throughout the Republic. . for the only possible sources of clarification or connection. Plato becomes boring. his character is . combined with musike. . But this is only because it says nothing. From having been shocking or incomprehensible.

correct it and shows how little he has learned. and the philosopher. and a series of alternatives is presented to the mind. Comford is undoubtedly right that virtue no longer means what it used to mean and that it has lost its currency. who cares and has the spirit to fight for it. (If there were a translation of the Prince which always translated virtu by virtue. the student who compared it with the Republic would be in a position to make the most exciting of discoveries. the true history of political thought comes to light. The rulers. and it is is [ xvi ] . for example. in addition. most contemporaries would have some divination of what one is talking about. Hobbes. in particular those who fight and thus hold the power in the city. The man who begins his studies should not be expected to is know these things. (However. In a sense the problem of the Republic was to educate a ruling class which for his country such as to possess the characteristics of both the citizen. if one were to assert that courage. As it now stands. but the only tolerable result of learning he become aware of them and be able to reflect on which of the alternatives most adequately describes the human condition. its sense is compared in Cicero. who is gentle and cosmopolitan. These authors all self-consciously used the same term and in their disagreement were referring to the same issues.Preface purify that." This change in significance is the product of a new understanding of the nature of man which began with Machiavelli. uses itself. Comford have been called guardians since their introduction in Book II. This is a quasi-impossibility. the disposition which would lead men be obedient to civil authority and live in peace together rather than the natural perfection of the soul. he may well be robbed of the greatest opportunity for enlightenment afforded by the classic literature.) "Freedom" took the place to of "virtue" as the most important term of political discourse. Adeimantus' question indicates his difficulty in understanding Socrates' criticism of what he admires. This is unobbut guardian is a word that has been laden with significance by what has preceded in the^book. The reader must be sensitized by the use of the term to a whole ethos in which "virtue" was still a political that issue. and Rousseau. Thomas Aquinas. is a virtue. admiration. and virtue came mean to social virtue —that is. The dramatic aspect of the dialogue is not without significance. and when.) But is this senility of the word only an accident? It has been said that it is one of the great mysteries of Western thought "how a word which used to mean the manliness of man has come to mean the chastity of woman. jectionable in safeguard instead of guardian. A study of the use of the word "virtue" in the Republic is by itself most revealing.

an inferior regime must be instituted. If the education does not succeed. )the only guardian of the guardians is a proper education/ It is this theme to which the reader's attention must be brought. Andi^ocrates tells us something important about that education. I have avoided using terms of recent origin for which it is difficult to find an exact Greek equivalent. It is Socrates who transformed their view by concentrating on the speech and its truth while subordinating rhythm and harmony. Above all. in fact. They are translated as they have been by the great authors in the philosophic tradition. I have tried to indicate a number of them in the notes when they first occur. Is it not conceivable that the Republic it. it J( consists of reason but not reason alone. not on institutions. Regimes depend on men's virtues. The term music is indeed a difficult one for the modern reader. if the highest virtues are not present in the rulers. Reason does not suffice in the formation of the good rulep/This is not the place to enter into a discussion of the full bearing of this lesson. And. impossible always and [ xvii ] . and any other word would surely be most misleading. the sense we give to music is not totally alien to the understanding Glaucon and Adeimantus had at the start. justice must be fundamentally compromised with the nature of those who hold power. Nature city are but two of the most important which are most often mistranslated. It is Socrates who rationalized music. is it a who are going to read widely in and that book meant for people would be unfair to cheat pick out from the text with the them for the sake of the subjective satisfaction of those who sentences aimlessly? Is the interpretation feared man who comes away by Cornford in a reader about whom Plato would immediate intelligibility or beauty offset the loss in substance? Only unawareness of the problems can account for such a perverse skewing of the emphases. And this was a sentence chosen by Cornford to demonstrate the evident superiority of his procare? cedure! And does the gain There are a whole series of fundamental teiTns like virtue. There are no guardians above the guardians. of course. It is. inasmuch as they are likely to be the ones which most reflect specifically modem thought. but there has been a full discussion of it in several passages of the Republic. In the context under discussion here Socrates is discussing the regimes which have to be founded on the fundamental compromise because of the flawed character of the guardians' virtues. but it is of utmost significance.Preface the leading theme of the onerous and complex training prescribed in the succeeding five books. It must be mixed with a nonrational element which tempers the wildness and harshness of both the pre-philosophic and philosophic natures.

a natural aristocracy determined neither by birth nor wealthyand this translation attempts to do nothing which would contradict that intention. It recurs again with respect to the lies of the poets (377 d). like those just mentioned and form and regime. nature in the English is no indication that there is anything related to physis in the Greek. This must not be hidden.. This unwillingness is due either to a refusal to believe Plato says desire to make him respectable. . for example. are always the same in spite of the difficulties this procedure sometimes causes. 106). but it is in itself a difficult bock." {ibid.. unwillingness to accept certain unpalatable or shocking statements or teachings is another cause of deviation from literalness. example of a not too tells of the need for a "noble lie" to be believed in the city he and his companions are founding (in speech). In addition to unawareness of the need for precision. But the only standard change was the absolute unintelligibility of the rendition and not any desire to make Plato sound better or to add variety where he might seem monotonous. but—according to Cornford—we are to believe it is harmless because it might conjure up . this confusion causes the reader either to be ignorant of the fact that nature is indeed Plato's standard or to mistake which phenomena he considers natural.Preface to translate every for Greek word in the same way. whereas the inhabitants of Socrates' city are to believe the untrue story to be true. now called propaganda p. Ordinarily in contemporary translations the occurrence of. And the most crucial words. But. At Book III 414 Socrates unpleasant associations. etc. lies. This whole question of lying has been carefully prepared by Plato from the very outset. Literal translation makes the Republic a difficult book to read. The diflference between a parable and this tale is that the man who hears a parable is conscious that it is an invention the truth of which is not in its literal expression. But Socrates calls it a lie. and the occurrence of physis in the Greek does not regularly call forth any word related to nature from the translator. His ijjterlocutors are shocked by the notion. starting with the discussion with old Cephalus (331 b-c)./Plato intended his works essentially for the intelligent and industrious few. and our historical situation makes it doubly difficult for us. for the most part ignoble.' a self-contradictory expression no more applicable to Plato's harmless allegory than to a New Testament parable or the Pilgrim's Progress. Cornford calls it a"bold flight of invention' and adds the following note: "This phrase is commonly rendered 'noble lie. XV]]] . and liable to suggest that he would countenance the . since nature is the standard for Plato. what he means or to a Comford provides again a spectacular uncommon tendency.

he finally confesses that "the convention of question tedious. The student of philosophy then takes one part of the dialogue as his special domain and the student of literature another as his. as in all other things. two beings rolled into one and coexisting in an uneasy harmony. p. the . It is at precisely this point that>fene should begin to ask whether we understand what a dialogue really is. frequently a lack of clarity about the purposes of the dialogue form. the translator follows suit. It not too hard to find acceptable versions of Aristotle's treatises. and answer becomes formal and frequently abandoning it in his latest work. This because they are not entirely unlike modem books. This is a radical statement about the relationship between truth and justice. the Platonic dialogues present a particular difficulty. no lie. There is. one which leads to the paradox that wisdom can rule only in an element dominated by falsehood^It is hardly worth if there is obscuring this issue for the sake of avoiding the crudest of misunderstandings. We then have Plato the poet and Plato the philosopher. He thinks the is only a convention. And perhaps the peculiarly modem phenomenon of prop- aganda might become clearer related to a certain to the man who sees that it is somehow myth of enlightenment which is itself brought into question by the Platonic analysis.. correcting what he believes to be the proper direction. a number of compromises—among them private property-^must be made and hence merely conventional inequalities must be accepted. on the other hand. using great license in the bulk of the book and reverting to a care appropriate to Aristotle when philosophy appears to enter. Plato is commonly understood to have had a teaching like that of Aristotle and to have enclosed it in a sweet coating designed to perform certain didactic or artistic functions but which must be stripped away to get to the philosophic core. He cuts out many of the exchanges of the interlocutors and suppresses entire arguments which do not seem to him to contribute to the movement of the dialogue. vii). Although he claims his wish is is is to fulfill Plato's intentions in a modem context. he abandons it. when it fatigues him. and.^ Beyond the general problems affecting the translation of all Greek and Latin texts.Preface lie (381 e-382 e) and that rulers baldly stated that the only truly (380 b-c). This is the fatal error which leads to the distinction between form and substance. . A good regime cannot be based on enlighten- and in the assertions that lie gods cannot may Now. finally. Plato himself came near to Laws him in . expresses the current tendency in a radical form." {ibid. Cornford. Comford thus improves on Plato.jit is ment. It is neither poetry nor dialogue form [ xix ] . just civil society must be founded on a lie. Socrates prefers to face up to the issue with clarity.

problem. because these details contain the images of the problems which complete the arguments. Perhaps this very tedium of which Comford complains is/he test which Plato gives to the potential philosopher to see whether he is capable of overcoming the charm of external fonn. just as the indifference to forms. as Comford would have it. Rather the difference reflects the differences in the participants in the dialogues and thereby the difference of intention of the two works. constitutes the core of his is criticism of pre-Socratic^philosophy/The dialogue the synthesis of these two poles an organic unity. The points at which they object to Socrates' reasoning are always most important. And every dramatic detail must be interpreted philosophically. By way of the drama one comes to the profoundest issues. together they are an invitation to the philosophic quest. Each of the exchanges reveals something. Every argument must be interpreted dramatically. even when the responses seem most uninteresting.( it is for a harsh concentration on often ugly detail is requisite to the philosophic enterprise/lt is the concentration on beauty to the detrito ment of truth which constitutes the core of his critique of poetry. But the difference in form between the Republic and the Laws is not a result of Plato's old age having taught him the defects of his mannered drama. is and Comford cites the Laws as proof that Plato gradually mended his ways. something of both. thus he has a certain Platonic justification for his changes in the text. He must ambition to one persuade them. for every argument is incomplete in itself and only the context can supply the missing links. a regime which can never be actualized. Separately these two aspects are meaningless. This is just one example of what is typical of every part of the Platonic works. bination of the two. with two young tries to men convert from the life of which philosophy plays a role. To call the dialogue a convention is to hide the. but it is itself and not a mere comThe fact that sometimes it does not meet the standards of the dramatic art reveals the same thing as the fact that sometimes the arguments are not up to the standards of philosophical rigor:/ Plato's intention is different from that of the poet or the philosopher as we understand them. every step of the argument is directed to their particular opinions and characters. His interlocutors are old men who have gifts of some theoretical whom he political in [ XX ] . In the Republic Socrates discusses the best regime. and hence man. Their reasoned assent is crucial to the whole process. as others assert. or its having caused him to lose his dramatic flair.Treface philosophy. and so are the points when they assent when they should not. In the Laws the Athenian Stranger engages in the narrower task of prescribing a code of laws for a possible but inferior regime.

and the process of arriving at it is more subtle than that involved in reading a treatise.) who makes mysteries. One must philosophize to understand them. since they are inalterable. and who makes them exercise the same faculties and virtues words as they would have to use in studying nature independently. The intention of a dialogue to those is the cause of its form. The Stranger talks to them not for the end of any conversion but only because one of them has the political power the Stranger lacks. A teaching which gives only the principles remains abstract and is mere dogma. The discussions indicate such difficulties and are preliminary to the essential act of lawgiving. The purpose of his rhetoric is to make his two companions receptive to this unusual code. Those causes are truly known only when they are come to by way of the fullest consciousness of the world which they cause. consciousness of the phenomena on which the dialogues they themselves provide a training in it. The Stranger must have the consent of the other two to operate his reforms of existing orders. but it is no more to be found in any of the speeches than is the thought of Shakespeare to be found in the utterances of any particular character. Important concessions must be made to those opinions.Preface no theoretical gifts or openness. and they are not supposed to discuss or be discussed. Their particular prejudices must be overcome. the new teaching must be made to appear to be in accord with their ancestrally hallowed opinions. and that intention comes to light only reflect who on its form. They are intended to perform the function of a who knows which ones should be led further and which ones should be kept away from the living teacher his students think. Otherwise one does not know what to look for nor can one know the full power of the causes. One must look at the microcosm of the drama just as one would look at the macrocosm of the world which it represents. I The Platonic dialogues do not present a doctrine. Every detail of that world is an effect of the underlying causes which can be grasped only by the mind but which can be unearthed only by using all the senses as well.(The strength and weakness of law lies in the fact that it is the polar opposite of philosophic discussion. they prepare the way for philosophizing. for the student himself does not know what the principles explain nor does he know enough of the world to be sure in studying his that their explanations are anything more than partial. There is a Platonic teaching. Laws by their nature have the character of monologue rather than dialogue. and [ xxi ] . It is this rich insist. but not by true persuasion of the truth. That thought is in none of the parts but is somehow in the whole. thus the presentation of the laws tends to be interrupted less.

It is always that which strikes us as commonplace or absurd which indicates that we are not open to one of the mysteries. This joins the concreteness of r§^firit^e fin esse to the science of I'esprit de g^g rnetrie . A student who has on his own pieced together the nature of the rhetorician on the basis of his representation in the Republic has grasped his nature with a sureness grounded on a perception of the universal seen through the particular. he can know that his understanding is incomplete. To interpret them. The only difference between the dialogues aiid the world is that the dialogues are so constructed that each part is integrally connected with every other part. Plato reproduced the essential world as he saw it. for the tialents of both are necessary to the attain- ment of the only end—the The Platonic dialogues are a representation of the world. and scientist become one. In the discussion of the divided line. Every word has its place and its meaning. in order to see the whole problem. they must be approached as one would approach the world. they are a cosmos in themselves. the particular illustrations chosen fit the nature of Socrates' interlocutor. for such sentiments are the protective mechanisms which prevent our framework from being shaken. it means that the interpreter has given up and has taken his place among the ranks of those Plato intended to exclude from the center of his thought. Thrasymachus' blush is as important as any of his theoretical arguments. One is never allowed to sit and xxu . and he knows it more authentically and surely than someone who has been given a definition. even in what seem to be the most stock responses or the most purely theoretical disquisitions. it avoids the pitfalls of particularistic other. for example. When something seems boring or has to be explained away as a convention. This is his own insight. The dialogues are constructed with an almost unbelievable care and subtlety. bringing with one all one's powers.Preface The human world is characterized by the distinction between speech and deed. and when one cannot with assurance explain any detail. no speech can be accepted on its face value without corhparing it to the actions of its author. The understanding of the man and his speeches is a result of a combination of the two perspectives. there are no meaningless accidents. and abstractness on the truth. the reader must ponder not only the distinction of the kinds of knowing and being but its particular effect on Glaucon and what Socrates might have said to another man. sensitivity. and we all recognize that in order to understand a man or what he says both aspects must be taken into account. The drama is everywhere. Poet on tfie one hand. Just as no action of a man can be interpreted without hearing what he says about it himself.

The translator canit all. name of this duty that one risks the ridiculousness of pedan try in style. The dialogue is so rich in connections with other Platonic works and the rest of classical literature that it would be impossible to begin to supply even the most important. above all. I am also Whatever merit to the help of Seth Benardete [ xxiii ] . present the meaning of certain key terms. Although his text was inferior to ours.Preface passively receive the words of And this means all that the translation must. the repetitions of words. University Press. the nuances of the original—the oaths. The best English translations are Paul Shorey's (Loeb) and A. D. which he would bring to bear on any real situation not hope to have understood the which concerned him. etc. give the known sources for the citations from other authors and the changes Plato makes in them. humanly possible. 1 have saved my own serve as a glossary. The notes are not intended to be interpretive but merely to present necessary information the reader could not be expected to know. Always at my hand was. Moreover. insofar as wisdom from the mouth of the master. and. may have is due in large measure and Werner J. explain difficulties in translation. The former gave me unsparingly of his immense classical learning and insight. opinions for the interpretive essay. but he must not begrudge his possiIt is in ble moral and intellectual superiors their possibility of insight. not only because it is good for him but also because the editor might very well be wrong in his emphases. to be confronted directly by the reader. preserving the uncomfortable details which force a sacrifice of the easygoing charms of a more contemporary I have used the Oxford text of the Republic. edited by John I have deviated from it only rarely and in the important instances have made mention of it in the notes. the slight changes in the fonn of responses. James Adam's valuable commentary (New York: Cambridge Burnet. Lindsay's (Everyman's). he seems to have had the best grasp of the character and meaning of the dialogues. The index is also intended to its categories are drawn only from Plato's usage and this translation not from contemporary interests or problems. Schleiermacher's old German version was the most useful translation I found. the latter was almost unbelievably generous with his time and brought his sensitivity and sound judgment to the entire manuscript. of course. Robin's French is also quite careful. 1963). The text is as much as possible Plato's. Dannhauser. it is the reader's job to discover these things himself.—so that the present reader can look at the progress of the drama with all the perceptiveness and sharpness of which his nature permits him. The latter is probably the more useful of the two because it is so unpretentious and straightforward.

I must thank the Relm Foundation and Cornell University for their support. James Nichols. Jr. and Myron Rush were very helpful with the introduction. 1964). Bems.. And I must also thank the Centre Universitaire International and its staff for the lovely office and the thoughtful assistance they gave me during my stay in Paris where I did the bulk of this work. Kennington.Preface Ralph Lemer for his suggestions after a thorough reading of the Walter F. who were the first to use the translation in their studies. I wish to thank my students. and Marc Plattner for their suggestions and detection of omissions and errors. Allan Bloom Ithaca. The interpretive essay relies heavily on Leo Strauss' authoritative discussion of the Republic in The City and Man (Chicago: Rand McNally. Mr. Richard H. particularly Games Lord. Plattner also did the bulk of the work on the index and deserves the credit for this useful addition to my translation. grateful to text. New York July 1968 XXIV .





we went off toward was fine." [3] ." he said. "He is coming up behind." he said. "just wait. Polemarchus said. After we had prayed and looked on. son of Cephalus. "Socrates. The boy took hold of my cloak from behind "Polemarchus orders you to wait. A moment later Polemarchus came along with Adeimantus. "Well. bad guess.BOOK I Socrates: I went down to the Piraeus^ yesterday with Glaucon." I said. these men or stay here." said Glaucon. ordered his slave boy to run after us and order us to wait for him. I guess you two are and said. Polemarchus.^ wanted to obsince they were now holdI for the first time." "That's not a "Well. Now. son of Ariston. — hurrying to get away to town." "Of course we'll wait. Catching sight of us from afar as we were pressing homewards. serve ing it how they would put on the festival. " he said. at the same time. in my opinion." And I turned around and asked him where his master was." then. "do you see how many of us there are? "either prove stronger than "Of course.^ to pray to the goddess. Niceratus. and. son of Nicias. and some others from the procession. town. the procession of the native inhabitants fitting but the one the Thracians conducted was no less a show. Glauapparently con's brother.

was also at home. "if we don't listen?" "There's no way. . "Is possible mind we won't listen." said Polemarchus. yet you ought to. the desires and pleasures that have to do with speeches grow the more." you don't know that at sun- for the goddess?" "That is novel. "our perone other possibility suading you that you must let us go?" "Could you really persuade. Cephalus. We'll get up after dinner and go to see it.socrates/polemarchus/glaucon/adeimantus/cephalus the RErUBLIC . mean?" "That's it. one ought. wither away in me. they'll put on an all- night festival that will be worth seeing. the Paeanian. but come here regularly to us as to friends and your very own e kin. however. besides. Cephalus. "Isn't there still "Well. Now do as I say: be with these young men. then. for Then we went d he had just performed a sacrifice in the courtyard." "For my part." I said. and he seemed very old to me. Polemarchus' brothers. in addition. "and. in my of road it is opinion. As it is. From you in particular I should like to learn how it looks to you. for you are now at just the time of life the [ 4 ] . think it over. We sat down beside him. there we found Lysias'^ and Euthydemus." said Glaucon. and.!! Polemarchus' father.^ and Cleitophonji** the son of Aristonymus. for I had not seen him for some time. those connected with the body. I am really delighted to discuss with the very old." And Glaucon "Well. Will they hold torches and pass them to one another while racing the horses." c Polemarchus' home. bearing in it 328 a Then Adeimantus set there will said. for some stools were arranged in a circle there. 227 c . I want you to know that as the other pleasures. "Since they are like certain road that perhaps we too will sort men who have proceeded on a have to take. you must come here more frequently. there would be no need for you to come here. He was seated on a sort of cushioned stool and was crowned with a wreath. you don't come down to us in the Piraeus very often." he said. Thrasymachus.^ the Chalcedonian and Charmantides. rather we would come to you. . Now if I still had the strength to make the trip to town easily. As soon as Cephalus saw me."^ I said. there we'll be together with many of the young men and we'll b talk. So stay and do as I tell you. if it is said." I said. "It seems we must stay." so resolved. "that's to how we must act. to learn from them what —^whether it is rough and hard or easy and smooth. or what do you be a torch race on horseback I "On horseback?" said. he greeted me warmly and said: "Socrates.

And they do have something there. When the desires cease to strain and finally relax. they take it hard as though they were deprived of something very important and had then lived well but are now not Some also bewail the abuse that old age receives from and in this key they sing a refrain about all the evils old age has caused them. there is one just cause: not old age. I shall tell you just how it looks to me. much as they thanks to himself but he himself had been a Seriphian he would not have made a name. when you say these things. Socrates.Book 1 1 327c-330a socrates/cephalus poets call 'the threshold of old age. Socrates. the saying of Themistocles holds good. how are you in sex? Can you still have intercourse with a woman?' 'Silence. c d e there are many consolations. but not. But. I stirred him up. But as it is. 'Sophocles. or what 328 c have you to report of it?" "By Zeus.' I thought at the time that he had spoken well and I still do. wanting him to say still more." he 329 a "Some of us who are about the same age often meet together and keep up the old proverb. in my opinion these men do not put their fingers on the cause. if they are not. saying: "Cephalus. I too would have suffered these same things insofar as they depend on old age and so would everyone else who has come to this point in life. then both age. but believe rather that it is not due to character that you bear old age so easily but due to possessing great substance. But of these things and of those that concern relatives. For. "They do not accept them." Then I was full of wonder at what he said and. then what Sophocles says comes to pass in every way. especially Sophocles. most of the members of our group lament. when they meet. They say that for the rich even alive. Socrates. if this were the cause. I have encountered others for whom it was not so.' he said. longing for the pleasures of youth and reminiscing about sex." he ' said. For. quite as think. I was once present when the poet was asked by someone. nor would that man have made one that illustrious not if abused him thanks to the city he was —saying —he answered When a Seriphian 330 a that [ 5] . and youth alike turn out to be hard for that sort.''^ is it a hard time of life. old age brings great peace and freedom from such things. '^^ Now then. in every way. as though I had run away from a sort of frenzied and savage master. it is possible to be rid of very many mad masters. said. man. 'Most joyfully did I escape it. about drinking bouts and feasts and all that goes with things of that sort. "What you say is true. rather. but the character of the human beings. Socrates. I suppose that the manyi^ do not accept them from you. b relatives. ^^ even old age is only moderately troublesome. however. ^4 If they are orderly and content with themselves.

" c d "The reason I asked. whose namesake I am. and they also are serious about it for the same reason other men are for its use. those who do not make money themselves are that way. "But tell me something more. now make his soul twist and turn because he fears they might be true. man comes near to the realiza- e 331 a tion that he will be making an end. "Indeed it is. he put it charmingly when he said that whoever lives out a just and holy life — — — — . my father. "is that to me you didn't seem overly fond of money. To the man who is conscious in himself of no unjust deed." I say wouldn't persuade said. to my sons here. hard even to be with because they are willing to praise nothing but wealth. and he reckons up his accounts and considers whether he has done anything unjust to anyone." "What you say is true. he "that when a many perhaps. so money-makers too are serious about money as their own product. They are. at any rate. "did you inherit or did you earn most of what you possess?" "What do you mean. For just as poets are fond of their poems and fathers of their children. What do you suppose is the greatest good that you have enjoyed from possessing — — great wealth?" "What Socrates. you know. fear and care enter him for things to which he gave no thought before. inherited pretty nearly as much substance as I now possess. I am satisfied if I leave not less. For know well. the man who finds many unjust deeds in his life often even wakes from his sleep in a fright as children do.CEPHALUS/SOCRATIES THE REPUBLIC 330 a had he been an Athenian. Whether it is due to the debility of old age. used it to a point where it was still less than it is now. as Pindar puts it. and he increased it many times over. I was a sort of mean between my grandfather and my father." I said. For my grandfather. "As a moneymaker. nor would the one who is not a decent sort ever be content with himself even if he were wealthy." he said. Lysanias." I said. now full of suspicion and terror. you see. The tales^^ told about what is in Hades that the one who has done unjust deeds^^ here must pay the penalty there at which he laughed up to then. therefore. Now. but rather a bit more than I inherited. For the most part. For. as it were he is. or whether he discerns something more of the things in that place because he is already nearer to them. Socrates!" he said. earned." I said. and lives in anticipation of evil." b "Cephalus. Socrates. And the same argument also holds good for those who are not wealthy and bear old age with difficulty: the decent man would not bear old age with poverty very easily. Those who do make it are twice as attached to it as the others. sweet and good hope is ever beside him a nurse of his old age.

the heir of the argument. "Tell " e said about justice that " "Well. "at least if Simonides should be believed at all. to not departing for that other place frightened because one owes some sacrifices to a god or money to a human being. isn't it?" — 332 a [ 7] . he demands it." he said. "Then this isn't the definition of justice. And yet. and the man who gave them back would not be just. Socrates." interrupted Polemarchus. I wouldn't count which wealth is very useful to an inis telligent man. speaking the truth and giving back what one takes. you. a nurse of his old age. but I don't understand. "I hand down the argument to you. it certainly isn't easy to disbelieve a Simonides. said Cephalus. I said. you. for it's already time for me to look after the sacrifices. For plainly he doesn't mean what we were just saying giving back to any man whatsoever something he has deposited when. Fostering his heart." he said and laughed. and. Polemarchus. "what was it Siyou assert he said correctly? "That it is just to give to each what is owed. and the friend demands them back when he is mad. Socrates. However. for " one thing reckoned against another. 20 "Certainly. And with that he went away to " " d the sacrifices. "What you say is right. what he deposited is surely owed to him. How of very wonderfully well he says that. "Am I not the heir of what belongs to you?" said Polemarchus. But. b this as the least thing." "It most certainly is. and moreover.' I said. still. but for the decent and orderly one." he said. 21 monides this me. perhaps know what on earth he means. The possession of money contributes a great deal to not cheating or lying to any man against one's will. "He is a wise and divine man. moreover. Cephalus. "What you say very fine'^ indeed. It also has many other uses. or is to do these very things sometimes just and sometimes unjust? Take this case as an example of what I mean: everyone would surely say that if a man takes weapons from a friend when the latter is of sound mind. "In saying he said a fine thing. one shouldn't give back such things. it is "But as c to this very thing.Book 1 1 330a-332a cephalus/socrates/polemarchus Sweet hope accompanies. 331 a Hope which most of all pilots The ever-turning opinion of mortals. For this I count the possession money most wroth-while." "Well." I said. at least in my opinion. justice. shall we so simply assert that the truth and giving back what a man has taken from another. of unsound mind. then. not for any man. one should not be willing to tell someone in this state the whole truth.

" "Does he mean enemies?' "In that justice is doing good to friends and harm my opinion. "it seems that Simonides made a riddle. "A man does not give what is owed in giving back gold to someone who has deposited it." he said. assuming the taker and the giver are friends. "All right. to d " "Seasonings to meats. who sick friends and bad to enemies? "A doctor." cooking gives what that is owed and fitting called he said. Now then. what about this? Must we give back to enemies whatever is owed to them?" "That's exactly it. when the giving and the taking turn out to be bad. after the fashion of poets." he said. it seems." I said." one that gives benefits and harms to friends and enemies. "For he supposes that friends owe it to friends to do some good and nothing bad. I said. and to this he " gave the name 'what is owed. mind he demands it. it should under no condition be given back to him?" "True. Isn't this what you assert Simonides means?" "Most certainly. means something different from this sort of thing when he says that it is just to give back what is owed. "In the name of Zeus." is to "With respect to disease and health. Socrates." "Now. "drugs." "I understand." "The art which things? what do you suppose he would answer us?" foods and drinks to bodies. For it looks as if he thought that it is just to give to everyone what is fitting." " most able to do good [ 8] .POLEMARCHUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLIC when of unsound 332 a "Yes. And I suppose that an enemy owes his enemy the very thing which is also fitting: some harm. when he said what the just is." he said. the art that gives what to which things would be he to called justice?" "If the answer has said. b c "Then Simonides." "Then." "Of course it's different. "the to be consistent with what preceded. fitting to the ait^ called medicine gives what that things?' owed and which "It's plain. " "if someone were to ask him." I said. "just what's owed to them. "What else do you think?" he said." "But. is 'Simonides. by Zeus.

" say." "But in what partnership then is the just man a better partner than the harp player. in my opinion." the just man a good and useful partner ?"24 down b draughts. a pilot. then. for the acquisition of shoes?" "What about would you say it is justice then? For the use or acquisition of what useful in peacetime?" "Contracts. isn't it?" "Yes." man." "And to men who are not sailing. in to "All right." "Except perhaps in using money. the expert on horses is a better partner. my friend Polemar- chus. or is it the skilled player of draughts skilled player of draughts. in are not at war." "True." "And what about the what work "In is just he most able it is to help friends my opinion in what action and with respect and harm enemies?" making war and being an ally in battle." fruits of the earth?" "And. I suppose. Socrates. ^^ or something else?" in setting "Partnerships. "Yes. Isn't that so? " c 9] ." "Then is justice also useful in peacetime?" "It is useful. of course. is the just man useless?" "Hardly my opinion. is the just man a more useful and better partner than the housebuilder?" "Not at all. Polemarchus. However." "Then to men who so. is to men who are not sick. a doctor useless." "In setting down bricks and stones. partnerships. when a horse must be bought or sold with money in partnership. suppose." "Do you mean by "Then "The is contracts. further. who has this power 332 e who are saihng?" "A pilot. just as the harp player is better than the just man when one has to do with notes?" "In money matters." "For the acquisition of the "Yes." 333 a "And so is farming. "Yes." is shoemaking I also useful?" "You would "Certainly.Book 1 1 332a-333c socrates/polemarchus "And with respect over those to the danger of the sea.

" "Will you also assert that when a shield and a lyre must be guarded and not used. justice in private. he is also a clever seems so. a good guardian of an army is the very same man who can also steal the enemy's plans and his other dispositions?" is "And whoever clever at "Certainly. Socrates." d "Is it when money a is useless that justice is useful for it?" useful both "I'm afraid so. the shipbuilder or pilot is better?" seems so. when "It a ship. then." "So that stealing it?" if a man is clever at guarding money. in what case is the just man more useful than the others?" "When they must be deposited and kept safe." "And. Odysseus' grandfather'^ on his mother's side. at any rate. and I'm afraid you learned this from Homer. Let's look at cleverest at landing a blow in be anything very serious. of course. and they are left lying?" "Certainly." "And when in partnership ture. Isn't the man who boxing." he said. its is justice useless in the use of each and useful in uselessness?" "Then justice. he is also clever at b least. but when they must be used. if it it this way." "And with respect "I'm afraid so. my friend." "Then. when gold or silver must be used in partnership." "Do you mean when there is no need to use them. vine-cul- looks like it. wouldn't useful for useless things. "The just man.POLEMABCHUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLIC it. the soldier's art and the musician's art are useful?" "Necessarily. as it seems. or any other kind of fight." "It pruning hook must be guarded." "So of whatever a thief?" "It man is a clever guardian. For he admires Autolycus. is and but when it must be used. further. also the one cleverest at guarding against it?" "Certainly. has come to light as a kind of robber." 334 a guarding against disease is also cleverest at getting away with producing it?" "In my opinion." it's 333 c "It looks like "And." e is is to everything else as well. justice is useful. and says he "So the argument's indicates at [ 10 ] .

" he said." " does really turn out that way. while those he considers bad one hates." "But don't human beings make mistakes about this. For I'm afraid we didn't set down the definition of friend and enemy correctly. " it's just to treat badly men who have done nothing unjust? "Not at all.Book 1 1 333c-335a socrates/polemarchus surpassed all men 'in stealing and in seems. "how shall we change it?" "The man who seems to be. not a 335 a And we'll take the same position about the enemy. and vice versa? "They do make mistakes. to be a certain art 334 b of stealing. or those "Do you mean by friends those who seem to be good to an inwho are. is a friend. "that the men one believes to be good." he bad. and just to help enemies. for the benefit. However. to be sure. Simonides." I said. will turn out to Polemarchus be just — to human beings who make e shall say the harm friends." said. Socrates. he said. by Zeus. "But let's change what we set down at the beginning." " "How did we do it. for they are good. just?" after all." all "Then mistakes for it — many. then. "But I no longer know what is did mean. so that many seem to them to be good although they are not. "For the argument seems to be "Then. So we very opposite of what "It we asserted Simonides means. dividual. seems to be but is friend. good. Isn't that what you meant?" harm I of ene- "No. according to you and Homer and swearing oaths. "So for them the good are enemies and the bad are friends? " "Certainly. even if they don't seem to be. " it is still my opinion that justice helping friends and harming c enemies. "it's just to harm the unjust and help the "This looks finer than what we just said. and is. Polemarchus?" "We set dovwi that the man who seems good is a friend. one loves." "Then." it's still just for them to help the bad and harm d "Yet the good are just and such as not to do injustice? "True. said. and similarly "It's likely. for their friends are bad." I said.' Justice. of friends and the mies." he "while the man who seems good and is not." [ 11 ] . "Now. according to your argument. " with enemies?" he said." "But nevertheless the good?" "It looks like it.

of all things? Or." "And when dogs are harmed." "Then. "bad men and enemies ought harmed become be harmed." "For posite. necessarily "It my so.SOCRATES/POLEMARCHUS THE REPUBLIC this 335 a friend. human unjust." I said." he said." I suppose that cooling is not the work of heat." argument be a just. but of its op- "Yes. as it seems. beings who have been harmed become more seems "Well. b to what we said at first about the do good to the friend and bad to the enemy." "Nor wetting the work of dryness but of its opposite. "Then the good man. and harm to the enemy." c that "Should we not assert the same of human beings. "the part of a just man to harm any human to being whatsoever?" "Certainly. then." "Do horses that have been better or worse?" "Worse." "But isn't justice human virtue?" "That's also necessary. will by and the good-for-nothing man an enemy?" "Yes. "Said in that way it would be fine in my "You order us to add something it Then we said that is just to opinion." "Is it." "With respect to the virtue^^ of dogs or to that of horses?" to "With respect to that of horses." "Most certainly. are musicians able to make men unmusical by music?" "Impossible. are good men able to make other men bad by virtue?" "Impossible." friend. they become worse with respect to human virtue?" "Most certainly. do they become worse with respect the virtue of dogs and not to that of horses?" "Necessarily." [ 12 ] . in sum." riders "Are men skilled in horsemanship able to make by horsemanship?" "That can't be. if he is bad. while now we are to say in addition that it is just to do good to the friend." "Certainly. " men incompetent d "But are just men able to make others unjust by justice. if he is good. my comrade when they are harmed." he said.

" I said. "if someone asserts that Simonides. "What is this nonsense that has possessed you for so long. become apparent that neither would one say they are?" Now b c — — d or the profitable." he said. "We shall do battle then as partners. "All right." "I agree. "I suppose it belongs to Periander. For he wasn't telling the truth." 335 d "It looks like it. the unjust man. Socrates. that saying belongs which asserts that it is just to help friends and harm ene- — — " 336 a mies?" "To whom?" he said." he said. he could no longer keep quiet. my Polemarchus." opinion. for one. "am ready to be your partner in the battle. Socrates? And why do you act like fools making way for one another? If you truly want to know what the just is. or Bias. And see to it you don't tell me that it is the needful. or the gainful. in the just fact. hunched up like a wild beast." I said. Then both Polemarchus and I got all in a flutter from fright. who wanted to hear the argument out." "What you say is very true. or the helpful. But when we paused and I said this. but he had been restrained by the men sitting near him. "Then anyone "In true. For it has become apparent to us that it is never just to harm anyone. "Do you know. or Pittacus^ or any other wise and blessed man said it. he flung himself at us as if to tear us to pieces. but of his opposite. what else Thrasymachus had many times started out to take over the argument in the midst of our discussion. "what you say is entirely e "Then if someone asserts that it's just to give what is owed to each man and he understands by this that harm is owed to enemies by the just man and help to friends the man who said it was not wise. but tell me [ 13 ] . the work of the good but of its opposite. or Xerxes." it is not the work of the just man to harm either a friend or else. or Perdiccas." he said. "to whom. or the advantageous. justice nor the just "since it has is this.Book 1 1 335a-336d socrates/polemarchus/thrasymachus "Nor is harming." he said. don't only ask and gratify your love of honor by refuting whatever someone answers you know that it is easier to ask than to answer but answer yourself and say what you assert the just to be." "I." "And it's man who is good?" "Certainly. you and I.^^ or some other rich man who has a high opinion of what he can do. And he shouted out into our midst and said. or Ismenias the Theban. in my opinion." I said.

is asked." He listened. just when he began to be exasperated by the argument. 'See to it you don't tell me. 'Thrasymachus. and I predicted to these fellows that you wouldn't be willing to answer." "Nothing prevents it from being. And if he asked. If we are making any mistake in the consideration of the arguments. it if you say e 337 a b c such inanities. we would ever foolishly give in to one another and not be as serious as we can be about bringing it to light. don't be hard on us.^" As it was." I said. as I suppose. I said: "Thrasymachus. you human being. or three times four. my friend! Rather. you surprising man? Or what do you mean?' what would you say to him in response?" — — "Very well." "That's because you are wise. "I to give as an what you are going to do?" he said. Polemarchus and I." I said. and said. do you think any the is less answer what appears whether we forbid him to or not?" "Well. we are not competent. Thrasymachus. but looks like he'll it is to the man who to him. I would have been speechless. "Hence you knew quite well that if you asked someone how much twelve is and in asking told him beforehand.THHASYMACHUS/SOCRATES THEREPUBLIC for I won't accept ' 336 d clearly and precisely what you mean. I had looked at him first. I won't accept such nonsense from you' it was plain to you. so don't suppose that when we are seeking for justice." I said. "And even granting that it's not similar." [ 14 i . that no one would answer a man who asks in this way. what do you mean? Shall I answer none of those you mentioned before? Even if it happens to be one of these. Don't you suppose that. burst out laughing very scornfully. "if that were my opinion upon that consideration. "Heracles! Here is that habitual irony of Socrates. so that I was able to answer him." I was astounded when I heard him. that you would be ironic and do anything rather than answer if someone asked you something. a thing more precious than a great deal of gold. know well that we're making an unwilling mistake. I suppose. and. that it is two times six. or six times two. "as if this case were similar to the other. and with just a trace of a tremor. "Are you going answer one of those I forbid?" shouldn't be surprised. shall I say something other than the truth. looking at him. I was frightened." he said. So it's surely far more fitting for us to be pitied by you clever men than to be treated harshly. If we were searching for gold we would never willingly make way for one another in the search and ruin our chances of finding it. I knew it. or four times three. I think that if I had not seen him before he saw me.

What ever do you mean by that. for I suppose you will speak well. Finally. For I pay as much as I can. And Thrasymachus evidently desired to speak so that he could win a good reputation. "I say that the just is nothing other than the advantage of the vVell. he goes around learning from others. since he believed he had a very fine answer. "But in addition to learning." "You best of men.Book I / 336d-338c thrasymachus/socrates/glaucon if I could show you another answer about justice besides and better than they are?" he said. Glaucon and the others begged him to do as I said. gratify me by answering and don't begrudge your teaching to Glaucon here and the others. and who. said Glaucon. "so that Socrates can get away with his usual trick." I said. I don't yet understand. You say the just is the advantage of the stronger. in the first place. "And surely it is fitting for him to learn from the man who knows. e We shall all contribute for Socrates. and when someone else has answered he gets hold of the argument and refutes it. But he kept up the pretense of wanting to prevail on me to do the answering. but when you say I do not make full payment in thanks. Thrasymachus? You surely don't assert such a thing as this: if Polydamas.^2 c [ 15 1 . for money's sake." "When you say I learn from others. I am only able to praise. "how could a man answer who.^^ is stronger than we are stronger . you will well know as soon as you have answered. in the second place." After I said this." he said. Now do as I say. "He has some. So this is what I think I deserve to suffer. however. and does not even give thanks to "I certainly believe ^ 338 a b them. he'll not answer himself. you lie."^i it. for you are the one who says he knows and can tell. Thrasymachus. "Now." Thrasymachus. "What punishment do you think you would deserve to suffer?" "What else than the one it is fitting for a man who does not know to suffer?" I said." I said. How eagerly I do so when I think someone speaks well. unwilling himself to teach." "That's because you are an agreeable chap!" he said. the pancratiast. is forbidden to say what he believes by no ordinary man? It's more fitting for you to speak." I said. "you speak the truth." "Now Hsten." he said. as it is. speak." "First I must learn what you mean. why don't you praise me? But you won't be willing. does not know and does not profess to know. I have no money. even if he does have some supposition about these things. pay a fine in money too." "What 337 d all these "When I get some. he conceded and then said: "Here is the wisdom of Socrates." I said. "For.

the advantage of the stronger. because. a democracy sets down democratic laws." he said. and the man who "And each ruling group sets dovm laws for its own departs from it they punish as a breaker of the law and a doer of unjust 339 a deeds. Thrasymachus— although you forbade me to give that answer. tell me. "Just tell me more clearly what and beef ." he said. Whether it is true or not. "that some cities are ruled some democratically. Of course. "I b understand what you mean. "Now. and I don't know whether it's so. don't you say though that it's also just to obey the rulers?" "Now. But it is plain that we must consider whether what you say is true." he said. best of men." I said. the advantage of the established ruling body. That must be considered.socrates/thrasymachus the republic 338 d is' advantageous for his body." "Not at all. is what I mean: in every city the same thing is just. "Don't you know. or are they such as make mistakes "By all too?" means. This. you mean." "You are disgusting." he said." suppose [ 16 ] ." "A small addition. I'll try to find out. so the man who I reasons rightly concludes that everywhere justice is the same thing. while I too agree that the just is something of advantage. Now. "That's what I'm going to do. a tyranny. best of men. "It isn't plain yet whether it's a big one." "When they put their hands to setting down laws." said." c "Are the rulers in their several to cities infallible. do they set some down "I correctly and some incorrectly?" so." "I do. then this food is also advantageous and just for us who are weaker than he is. and some aristocratically?" "Of course. you too answer that the just is the advantageous." I said. 'for the stronger' is added on to it. "You take hold of the argument in the way you can work it the most harm." ly." he said. And they declare that what they have set dovrai—their own advantage—is just for the ruled. Socrates. perhaps. "Certainly. and the others do the same." "Go ahead and consider." "In each city. tyrannic laws. you add to it and assert that it's the advantage of the stronger. It surely is master. "they certainly are such as to make mistakes too." isn't tyrannical- the ruling group master?" e advantage.

On the basis of these agreements. "If by Zeus. e do what stronger. "most clearly. "also suppose that you're agreed that it is just disadvantageous for those who are the rulers and the to stronger." said Cleitophon.Book I I 338d-340b socrates/thrasymachus/polemakchus/cleitophon law correct which sets down what is advantageous for themselves. Socrates. while it is just for the ruled to do whatever the rulers command? Weren't these things agreed upon?" "I "What do you mean?" he said. doesn't it necessarily follow that it is just for the others to do the opposite of what you say? For the weaker are commanded to do what is doubtless disadvantageous for the "Well." "And because." "Yes. Wasn't agreed that the rulers. Polemarchus." I said. according to your argument." down that to do what the bid Polemarchus. most wise Thrasymachus. the advantage of the stronger would be no more just than the disadvantage." Let's consider it better. how do you mean it?" "As you say. then." said Polemarchus. Once he had set both of these principles down. Cleitophon. he further agreed that sometimes the stronger order those who are weaker and are ruled to do what is to the disadvantage of the stronger. In this case. when they command the niled to do someit thing. "What you mean. "he said that the advantage of the stronger is what the stronger believes to be his advantage. when the rulers unwillingly command what is bad for themselves. This is what is just. sometimes completely mistake what is best for themselves. and you assert it is just to do what they have commanded." "Then. it's just to do not only what is advantageous for the stronger but also the opposite. what is disad"Is that 339 c d vantageous. it seems to me. b [ 17 ] ." "But. he also set down that the advantage of the stronger is just. and that one incorrect which sets down what is disadvantageous?—Or." said Cleito- 340 a it's you who are to witness phon interrupting." for him. and this is the just?" "Of course." "But whatever the rulers set down must be done by those who are ruled." he said. the rulers sometimes it is command what "Thrasymachus himis bad for themrulers selves and that just for the others to "That's because Thrasymachus set do these things. suppose is so. "What need is there of self agrees that a witness?" he said.

"That's because you're a sycopJi^ "when you agr^e^^ . since y^ speak precisely. So I say the just is exactiy ." 1 said. ' • " "I don't suppose. p'^^''*^hus. at I ^^^ • ^^^^ ^ ^^^ ^^^ the moment he is making a mistake e ^^ry sense of his m>^ ^"^r of speaking ^the o made a mistake. But what follows is the most pj-g Way: the ruler. What I answered you earlier fU^ ^ ^"' you must also take m way. u . says it that way now. and the &^^^^f^^ ss ^ ^s he is what we a<J him as." I said.^ ^ ^^t it won't profit yon- You "Nor would I even try. you blesserl ^ ^^ ^^ *^® argument.«r whether ^gain. insofar is a ruler. does not make mistakes. was this what you w^m f^* '* from him. failing to g^* know jf unn .^ ^ ^o in your opinion I P^^^ sycophant?" "You most certainly do. "" tha ^s again ^. anrl^ "^* making mistakes.^^^^•' "All right.^^^*^kes in some thingsi "To take an obvious example ^" arguments." he said. to do the advantage of the st . ^ the rulers are not infallible but also m^V d said. or makes mistakes at the moment when k ^ '^ """ling. The man failure in knowledge is in that respect no craftsman.cleitophon/polemarchus/socrates/thrasymachus THE REPUBLIC t (^ MO b c must be done by the weaker." th • ^^ ^^ what he set down ^s the what was said. So n '^^i' wise man. you won't be able to overpQ^^^ ^^^" and. he said. and just. none of the craftsmen suppose rather that this is just ouj-' ^ mistake he is a *^^'^tion a skilled calcu ^^ ^^T k> — '^ • 34J a makes mistakes makes them on accon f ^ ^^ mistakes. "But. let's symachus ^ a tel Thrasymachus. whether I call is *f . "Not in the makes mistakes takes?" "I did least. never makes mistakes.v. Now "That's not "It doesn't ' to the stronger to be the advantage of u*^ ^^^ *^® J"^* '^' '^^^* *^^adi* vantageous or not? Shall we assert that th^ stronger. "Do you suppose I ask as I aske^ do k because I am plotting ^^ harm^s to you in the argument?" is thi ruled. Thra>* ° ^'^^rchus. Hence' P'^^^ise speech." said PqI make any difference. make it clear [ 18 ] ." he said. mistakes about the sick a doctor becau ing? Or a man who makes mistakes jr. although eveO' would say that the doctor made a ^"^ *he ruler ma mistake." I sai. ^ ^i "^Ust be done by the man "ave been saying from beginning. he down what is best for himself. Thrasymachus. so same sort of thing doesn't happen tr.l. "I b won't get away with doing harm unnoticed. at "Do y ^^ ^^ *he way you mean a i*- 'stronger' the ^ ^^PP^se that rnn ""^"t when he t man "^ ^ making ^>'' suppose you to mean this " j that ^^^o. the calculator made But I suppose that each of these men ^ "^'^t^^e. And . Socrates. '^^n.

" I said.Booh I / 340b-342a socrates/thbasymachus you meant by the ruler and stronger the man who is such only in common parlance or the man who is such in precise speech." he said. if you can—I ask for no favors—but you won't be able to. is it also the case that there 342 [ 19 ] . it needs something else." "Do you suppose me to be so mad. For it isn't because of sailing that he is called a pilot but because of his art and his rule over sailors.^^ and it won't do for it to be like that. that is what it is directed toward. "Is there something advantageous for each of them?" "Certainly." he said. And the art of medicine has now been discovered because a body is defective. and he shouldn't be called a sailor for that." I said." he said. is the doctor in the precise whom you recently spoke. I would say: 'By all means." I said." he said. "although you were a nonentity at that too." "True." "And is there then any advantage for each of the arts other than to be as perfect as possible?" "How do you mean "Just as. whose advantage you said a moment ago it will be just for the weaker to serve because he is stronger?" "The one who is the ruler in the most precise sense. "Do harm to that and play the sycophant. "Now tell me." "And isn't the art." I said. "naturally directed toward seeking and providing for the advantage of each?" "Yes." he said.' Would I seem to you to speak correctly in saying that or not?" question?" should ask you this me "You would." sense. "And what about the pilot? Is the man who rect sense a ruler of sailors or a sailor?" is a pilot in the cor- "A "I ruler of sailors. of 341 b < "Enough of this. The art was devised for the purpose of providing what is advantageous for a body. is it or any other art defective." "One who cares for the sick. "And what about medicine itself." i suppose it needn't be taken into account that he sails in the ship. and does it need some supplementary virtue? Just as eyes need sight and ears hearing and for this reason an art is needed that will consider and provide what is advantageous for them. "if whether it's enough for a body to be a body or whether it needs something else. "as to try to shave a lion and play the sycophant with Thrasymachus?" "At least you tried just now. a money-maker or one who cares Speak about the for the sick? man who is really a doctor.

but that of the sick man? For the doctor in the precise sense was agreed to be a ruler of bodies and not a money-maker.socrates/thrasymachus the republic its 342 a b and does each art have need of another advantage. "But." "Then such a pilot and ruler will consider or command the benefit not of the pilot. there is no kind of knowledge that considers or commands the advantage of the stronger." I he said. insofar as he ruler. I said: "Then. and looking to this and what [ 20 ] ." said. Wasn't it so agreed?" He assented. When he had agreed. Is so or otherwise?" "That's the c way said. and so on endlessly? Or does each consider its own advantage by itself ? Or does it need neither itself nor another to consider what is advantageous for its defect? Is it that there is some defect in the art itself art that considers to seek the in any art. Thrasymachus. who is commands his own advantage rather than that of it is what ruled and of is which he himself is the craftsman." He finally agreed to this. and that it isn't fitting for an art advantage of anything else than that of which it is the art. Nor does any other art consider its own advantage ^for it doesn't have any further need to—but the advantage of that of which it is the art. the arts rule and are masters of that of which they are arts." "Yes. but of the man who is a sailor and is ruled. "Then. and does the art that considers it need in its turn another of the same kind. but rather of what is weaker and ruled by d it. "Nor does horsemanship consider the advantage of horsemanship. but with a great deal of resistance." he said." He assented with resistance. I "Therefore. isn't it the case that the doctor. too. and that it is itself without blemish or taint because it is correct so long as it is precisely and wholly what it is? And consider this in that precise is it no defect or error present sense. although he tried to put up a fight about it." — "It looks that way. Thrasymachus." medicine. insofar as he is a doctor. but of horses. "medicine doesn't consider the advantage of looks." he said." He conceded this too. but of the body. considers or commands not the doctor's advantage. it "Then. e "And was the pilot in the precise sense agreed to be a ruler of sailors and not a sailor?" "It was agreed. "there isn't ever is anyone who considers or holds any position of rule.

the other much. the just domestic affairs deteriorate from neglect. Thrasymachus. when there man pays more on the basis of equal property. when the just man is a partner of the unjust man. that you are unaware that justice and the just are really someone else's good. it is his lot to see are taxes. most simple Socrates: the just man everywhere has less than the unjust man. in matters pertaining to the city. and when there are distributions. You will learn most easily of all if just now [ 21 ] . and a personal serves. those who truly rule. I am speaking of the man 34< spoke of.Book 1 1 342a-344a socrates/thrasymachu! advantageous and fitting for it that he says everything he says and does 342 343 everything he does. And you are so far off about the just and justice. and it rules the truly simple and just. the advantage of the stronger and rules. "Tell Socrates." "Because of what. when each holds some ruling office. but less. in contracts. if you want to judge how much more to his private advantage the unjust is than the just. since it's her fault you do not even recognize sheep or shepherd." he said. thanks to his being just. "Shouldn't "Why things?" you answer instead of asking such "Because. Consider him. and so you also believe that the rulers in the cities. he incurs the ill vidll of his relatives and his acquaintances when he is unwilling to serve them against what is just. and those who are ruled do what is advantageous for him who is stronger. the one makes no profit. in addition to this. The unjust man's sithis uation I is the opposite in all of these respects. "Because you suppose shepherds or cowherds consider the good of the sheep or the cows and fatten them and take care of them looking to something other than their masters' good and their own. in particular?" I said. i me. First. the unjust man less. Second. And. and the unjust and injustice. do you have a wet nurse?" this?" I said. even if the just man suffers no other penalty. think about the ruled differently from the way a man would regard sheep. said. the one who is able to get the better^"^ in a big way. "you know she neglects your sniveling nose and doesn't give it the wiping you need. further. and that night and day they consider anything else than how they will benefit themselves. while he gets no advantage from the public store. and they make him whom they serve happy but themselves not at all. instead of answering." When we came to this point in the argument and it was evident to everyone that the argument about the just had turned around in the opposite direction. you will always find that at the dissolution of the partnership the just man does not have more than the unjust man. And this must be considered. Injustice harm to the man who is man who obeys and is the opposite.

that those who blame in- sufficient scale. And I. "or else you have no care for us and aren't a bit concerned whether we shall live worse or better as a result of our ignorance of what you say you know. freer. most wretched. he gets called happy and — c blessed. and have it in mind to go away before teaching us adequately or finding out whether it is so or not? Or do you suppose you are trying to determine a small matter and not a course of life on the basis of which each of us would have the most profitable ex- him to stay put istence?" '45 a b "What? Do I suppose it is (Otherwise?" said Thrasyihachus. as I have said from the beginning. e But those present didn't let him and forced and present an argument for what had been said. but because they fear suffering them. he had it in mind to go away. And perhaps. and those who suffer it and who would not be willing to do injustice. nevertheless. and the unjust is what is profitable and advantageous for do so. my good man. When someone does some part of this injustice and doesn't get away with it.^^ defrauders. and thieves are what they call those partially unjust men who do such evil deeds. And that is tyranny. either by stealth or by fighting out in the open. and. too." d When Thrasymachus had just like a bathman.rHRASYMACHUS/SOCRATES THEREPUBLIC 344 a you turn injustice b to the most perfect injustice. but all at once. he is punished and endures the greatest reproaches temple robbers. which makes the one who does most happy. instead of these shameful names. when it comes into being on a and more masterful than justice. But. housebreakers. you demonic man. on my own begged him and said "Thrasymachus. So. injustice. he does not persuade me that this is more profitable than justice. not even if one gives it free rein and doesn't hinder it from doing what it wants. private and public. and let him be able to do injustice. in addition to the money of the citizens. make an effort to show it to us—it wouldn't be a bad investment for you to do a good deed for so many as we are. Socrates. I must tell you that for my part I am not persuaded. not only by the citizens but also by whomever else hears that he has done justice injustice entire. do you toss in such an argument. having poured a great shower of speech into our ears all at once. the just is the advantage of the stronger. my good man. kidnaps and enslaves them too. But when someone. But. both what is sacred and profane. "You seemed to. let there be an unjust man. is mightier. nor do I think injustice is more profitable than justice. oneself. kidnappers. which by stealth and force takes away what belongs to others. someone else among us— and not only [ 22 ] .^'' after said this." I said. not bit by bit. For it is not because they fear doing unjust deeds.

Book I / 344a-346b socrates/thrasymachus So persuade us adequately. you later thought it no longer necessary to keep a precise c guard over the true shepherd. nonetheless you don't for that reason call what he does the medical art?" "Surely not. For that the art's own affairs surely adequately provided for so long as e the rulers in the cities. b [ 23 ] . And. and don't deceive us. so that we can reach a conclusion. but." "And does the wage-earner's art furnish wages? For this is its power. insofar a shepherd." he said. that we don't deliberate correctly in having a higher regard for I— also has this sentiment. I for my part thought just now being that it is necessary for us to agree that every kind of rule. you blessed man. shepherd's art surely cares for nothing but providing the best for it The what way be in the best possible it lacks nothing of the shepherd's art." "And how. stick to what you said. the pilot's art with safety in sailing. and so forth with the others?" "Certainly. who a to the sale. even if a man who is a pilot becomes healthy because sailing on the sea is advantageous to him. Or do you call the medical art the same as the pilot's art? Or. Do you think that has been is set over. rule willingly?" "By Zeus." "Yes." "And does each of them provide us with some and not a peculiar^J benefit common one. similarly. or in a d shepherd. don't you do it. "what about the other kinds of rule? Don't you notice that no one wishes to rule voluntarily. 345 b justice than injustice." "But. or if you change what you set down. at all events." he said. as the medical art furnishes us with health. if you wish to make precise distinctions according to the principle you set down. "shall I persuade you? If you're not persuaded by what I've just now said. Thrasymachus. like a guest turn. considers what is best for nothing other than for what is ruled and cared for. you see that—still considering what went before—after you had first defined the true doctor. you blessed man. always say that each of the arts is different on the basis of having a different capacity? And don't answer contrary to your opinion." he said. those who truly rule. money-maker and not what is best for the to good cheer. what more shall I do for you? Shall I take the argument and give your soul a forced feeding?"^*) "By Zeus." he said. "I know it well. but they demand wages as though the benefit from ruling were not for them but for those who are ruled? Now tell me this much: don't we. fattens the sheep. As it is. not looking to as he is sheep. insofar as it is rule. make it clear that you're doing so. "But." I said. Thrasymachus. "this is 346 a the way they differ. like is going to be feasted. Rather you think that he. both in political and private rule. I don't think it." I said. first.

not attached to for just this reason. and so it is with all the others." he said"Does he then produce no benefit when he works for nothing?" "I suppose he does." that no one willingly chooses [ 24 ] ." "It seems so. insofar as he is commanding by art. Thrasymachus. is for each not a result of his ov^Ti art." "What do you mean by that. but." "Therefore. it provides for and commands the one who is ruled. It is for just this reason. call the wage-earner's art the medical art. that there must be wages for those who are going to be willing to rule— either money. but I don't understand what penalty you mean and how you can say it is a kind of wage. it is plain by now that no art or kind of rule provides for its own benefit." he said. "And we did agree that the benefit of each art is peculiar?" "Let it be. but rather what is best for the man who is ruled. as it seems. Socrates?" said Glaucon. or a penalty if he should not rule." he said. considering his advantage— that of the weaker— and not that of the stronger. even if a man practicing medicine should earn wages?" He said that he did not." He d assented with resistance. because the man who is to do anything fine by art never does what is best for himself nor does he command it. getting wages. I suppose. but. that to rule 1 said a moment ago 347 a and get mixed up in straightening out other people's troubles. but he asks for wages. if it must be considered precisely. or honor. and the wage-earner's art wages. even if a man who is earning wages should be healthy?" "Surely not. the medical art produces health. "And we say that the benefit the craftsmen derive from receiving wages comes to them from their use of the wage-earner's art in addition. each accomplishes its own "Then e which it has been set over. as we have been saying all along. "Then whatever benefit all the craftsmen derive in common is plainly derived from their additional use of some one common thing that is the same for all. what about this? Do you call the medical art the wageearner's art. It is work and benefits that it. this benefit. wages. the housebuilder s art produces a house and the wage-earner's art. my dear Thrasymachus." he said.socrates/thrasymachus/glaucon the republic 346 b c "Nor do you. And if pay were would the craftsman derive benefit from the art?" "It doesn't look like it. following upon it. "The first two kinds of wages I know. "And.

Glaucon. So I can in no way agree with Thrasymachus that the just is the advantage of the stronger." he said. and there it would become manifest that a true ruler really does not naturally consider his own advantage but rather that of the one who is ruled. therefore." truer in your opinion?" "I for said. Or don't you know that love of honor and love of money are said to be. and then he should speak in return. this reason. "but I'm not persuaded. "I and are." "Then do you want us to persuade him. and we again. in my view. will they rule for the sake of honor. Which do you choose. reproaches?" do indeed." I moment ago as "I heard. there would be a fight over not ruling. if we're able to find a way. and at that time they proceed to enter on rule. telling how many good things belong to being just. not as though they were going to something good." I said. but they enter on it as a necessity and because they have no one better than or like themselves to whom to turn it over. again. For it is likely that if a city of good men came to be. For they are not lovers of honor. Thus everyone who knows would choose to be benefited by another rather than to take the trouble of benefiting another. Nor. But this we shall consider again at another time. just as there is now over ruling. that what he says isn't true?" "How could I not want it?" he said. "the rule for the sake of good aren't willing to For they don't wish openly to exact wages for ruling and get called hirelings." I said. "if we should speak at length against him. "and which speech as is my part choose the "Did you hear. What Thrasymachus now says is in my own opinion a far bigger thing—he "For money or honor." he said.Book I / 346b-348a socrates/glaucoi "Then you don't understand the wages of the best men. or as though they were going to be well off in it. nor on their own secretly to take a profit from their ruling and get called thieves. that decent men rule. "how many good things Thrasymachus belonging to the life of the unjust man?" life of the just man 348 [ 25 ] . asserts that the life of the unjust man is stronger^^ than that of the just I man." said. It is because they fear this." I said. 347 "on account of which the most decent men rule. when they are wilHng to rule. Hence. when they do rule. if they are going to be willing to rule—it is likely that this is the source of its being held to be shameful to seek to rule and not to await necessity— and the greatest of penalties is being ruled by a worse man if one is not willing to rule oneself. "Now. there'll be need listed a more profitable. necessity and a penalty must be there in addition for them. setting speech against speech.

d then vice?" "No." "1 "What then?" "The opposite." "Well. Now." he said. said. Thrasymachus. "Come now. and. that you put injustice in the camp of virtue and wisdom. and then we'll be in need of some sort of judges^^ who But if we consider just as we did a moment ago. since you also dared to set it down in the camp of virtue and wisdom. then. "and are able tribes of men to themselves. For if you had set injustice-down as profitable but had nevertheless agreed that it is viciousness or shameful." I said. how do you speak about them in this respect? Surely you call one of them virtue and the other vice?" "Of course." he said." "That's already something more solid." unaware of what you want to say." he "Is justice said. such things. we would have something to say. I "Which way do you like?" "The latter. are profitable. you agreeable man. each speech. we'll ourselves be both judges and pleaders at once." "Are the unjust in your opinion good as well as prudent.socrates/glaucon/thrasymachus the republic how many each of us has in 34a b of counting the good things and measuring will decide." he said. "when I also say that injustice is profitable and justice isn't." "Then do you call justice virtue and injustice vice?" "That's likely. but they aren't worth men"Yes." "Do you call injustice corruption ?"44 "No. suppose I am speaking of cutpurses." said." "Most certainly. perhaps. "and I've said why. rather good counsel. but very high-minded innocence. "I'm not But I [ 26 ] . my comrade. "when one gets away with them. But as it is. those to subjugate cities who and tioning e compared to those I I was just talking about. speaking according to customary usage. plainly you'll say that injustice is fair and mighty. Do you it is assert that perfect injustice is "answer us from the beginmore profitable than justice when c perfect?" most certainly do assert it. too." he said. coming to agreement with one another. you'll set down to its ac"As to that. and justice among their opposites?" "But I do indeed set them do\vn as such." I said. Thrasymachus?" can do injustice perfectly. "and it's no longer easy to know what one should say. as do some others. You. wondered about what went before." he said." he said. ning.

" he said. "is the unjust is man them? also like the prudent and the good." he said. For." he said. "since he claims he hufor deserves to get the better of everyone?" will the unjust man will also get the better of the unjust man being and "That's it. and believe it to be just. to "He "And what about the unjust man? Does he claim he deserves get the better of the just man and the just action?" " "How "Then himself?" could it be otherwise. "is not what I am asking." all the other things which we used to set down as belonging to the 349 a "Your divination is very true. then. is the better of what like but of what "the just man does not get unhke." I said. but he wouldn't be able to." he said." but to be speaking the truth as it seems to you." "And what about action?" this: would he be willing to get the better of the just " "Not even of the Just action. he said. said. "one oughtn't to hesitate to pursue the consideration of the argument as long as I understand you to say what you think. "And does he claim he deserves to get the better of the unjust man. and claims he deserves. "But try to answer b other things: in your opinion would the just of the just man be willing to get the better man in anything?" "Not at all." I said." he I said. while man neither?" "That's good too." "That.Book 1 1 348b-349d socrates/thrasymachus count just." is I said." he said. " d he said. and he struggle to take most of all "Let us say it. "Otherwise he wouldn't be the urbane inno- cent he actually is. you seem really not to be joking now. or would he not believe it to be so?" "He'd believe it to be just. to get the better of the unjust and not of the just c man?" does." action. he said." "And what difference does it make to you." said. and I why don't you refute the argument? this in addition to the "No difference. but whether the just man wants. "Then. "But nonetheless. as follows. "what you "And. Thrasymachus. "whether it seems so to me or not. while the unjust man gets the better of like and unlike? very good. "is the unjust man both prudent and good. "and he'd claim he deserves to get the better. while the just man not like [ 27] ." the just I is said is said.

" is "Surely the musical prudent and which thoughtless?" man is prudent and the unmusical is man in those in which he "Yes." "Which thoughtless." "it is "Perhaps. and 350 a "And what about "It is the a medical man? Is it not the same with him?" same. both good and wise will not want to get the but of the unlike and opposite?" is [ 28 ] .THBASYMACHUS/SOCKATES THE REPUBLIC he said." he said. "And what about a medical man? On questions of food and drink. man is musical "I do. and not the same as the man in who b is like himself in the same action." "And what about the ignorant man? Would he not get of both the man who knows and the man who does not?" "Perhaps." he said. "Then the man who better of the like. you best of men. since he is such not like them. is not medical?" "Now." the better "The man who knows "I is wise?" say so. or does he claim he deserves more?" "Not in my opinion. while the other Then is he not be Hke such men." is "And the wise man I good?" say so. necessarily so. Do you say that one and that another is unmusical?" else could they "What "All right." "Then. bad?" he also good. see if your opinion any man at all who knows chooses voluntarily to say or do more than another man who knows." "But the better of the unmusical man?" "Necessarily. for every kind of knowledge and lack of knowledge." in "Then." each of them such as those to whom he is like?" e be?" he said. would he want to get the better of a medical man or a medical action?" "Surely not. as they." "But the better of what Yes. "could is 349 d "How " "Fine. is any musical man who is tuning a lyre your opinion willing to get the better of another musical man in tightening and relaxing the strings. is thoughtless. in the things in which he is prudent. Thrasymachus.

by Zeus. Thrasymachus did not agree to all of this so easily as I tell it now." I said. But if I should speak. just as with old wives who tell tales. Or don't you remember. for it was summer." he said." c e own opinion." "I ask what I asked a moment ago so that we can in an orderly fashion make a thorough consideration of the argument about the character of justice as compared to injustice. and I have something to say about it. Thrasymachus. but we did say that injustice is mighty as well.' and I shall nod and shake my head. "But even what you're saying now doesn't satisfy me." "Then ask. "To satisfy you. At all events." I said. "since you won't let me speak." "Not." ter "Then." man will not get the better of like but of unlike?" c "Then." he said. What else do you want?" "Nothing. Thrasymachus?" "I remember. when we had come to complete agreement about justice being virtue and wisdom. but the man like the bad and unlearned." "It 350 b will want to get the better of both the looks like it. 351 . And I'll ask questions. "but if that's what you are going to do." also agreed that each is "I'm afraid so. "But the bad and unlearned and the opposite?" seems so. "does our unjust man get the betof both like and unlike? Weren't you saying that?" "I was. Surely it was said that injustice is more powerful and mightier than justice." I said. but he dragged his feet and resisted. So then. But now. just "And the "Yes. and. in any case. and injustice both vice and lack of learning. I said. "the just man is like the wise and good." he said. I know well that you would say that I am making a public harangue." I said. [ 29 ] . And then I saw what I had not — yet seen before ^Thrasymachus blushing. "All right. go ahead and question. or. contrary to your has revealed himself to us as good and wise. go ahead and do it.Boo/c I / 349d-351a thrasymachus "It like he said. I shall say to you. if you want to keep on questioning." just such as the one he is "We "Then the man and the unjust man Now." we were were. let that be settled for us. and he produced a wonderful quantity of sweat." unjust I said. 'All right. unlearned and bad. either let me say as much as I want." "But like.

Now tell me this: if it's the work of injustice. and keeps many enslaved to itself?" "Of course. or is it necessary for it to have this power with justice?" "If." "And what about when injustice comes into being between two? Will they not differ and hate and be enemies to each other and to just men?" "They will. Thrasymachus." "And it's good of you to do so. or robbers." I said. wherever it is.socrates/thbasymachus the republic 351 a "if justice is h c indeed both wisdom and virtue. "And it's this the best city will most do. but in this way: would you say that a city is unjust that tries to enslave other cities unjustly. or any other tribe which has some common unjust enterprise would be able to accomplish anything. you best of men. hatreds." he said. since injustice is lack of learning—no one could still be ignorant of that." he said. "And what if they didn't act unjustly? Wouldn't they be more able to accomplish something?" "Certainly. But if it's as I said with injustice. or pirates. the one that is most perfectly unjust. injustice should come into being within one man. that justice is wisdom—^with justice. [ 30 ] . or an army. e produces factions. I believe it will easily it is also mightier than injustice." he said." I said. "It's good of you to do so. so as not to differ with you. but also give very fine answers. "because you not only nod and shake your head." "I am full of wonder." "It's because I am gratifying you." "I understand. and justice that produces unanimity and friendship. injustice that "Certainly." he said. But. "And if. and to be unable to accomplish anything in common with one another?" it's "For surely. then. Isn't it so?" "Let it be so. Thrasymachus. if its members acted unjustly to one come to light that — another?" d "Surely not." he said. "it's as you said a moment ago." he said. both among free men and slaves. and quarrels among themselves. when injustice comes into being. and has reduced them to slavery. But gratify me this much more and tell me: do you believe that either a city. to implant hatred. then. I do not desire it to be so simply considered. will it not also cause them to hate one another and to form factions. but I am considering this aspect of it: will the city that becomes stronger than another have this power without justice. Thrasymachus. "that this argument was yours.

" "Well. And now." "Feast yourself boldly on the argument. so as not to irritate these "fill men I here. they do also look as though they are. are just?" be. But whether the just also live better than the unjust and are happier. too. and then it makes that thing an enemy both to itself and to everything opposite and wherever whatever to the just? Isn't it 352 a so?" "Certainly." he said." I said. will just second. they could never have restrained themselves with one another if they were completely unjust. will ished?" it lose its power or said. while the unjust can't accomplish anything with one another—for we don't speak the complete truth about those men who we say vigorously accomplished some common object with one another although they were unjust." he said. and. but about the way one should live. "for I won't oppose you. but it is plain that there was a certain justice in them which caused them at least not to do injustice to one another at the same time that they were seeking to do it to others. out the rest of the banquet for me by understand that the just come to light as wiser and better and more able to accomplish something. then.Book I / 351a-352d socrates/thrasymachus you surprising fellow. on the basis of what we have said. it comes into being." at faction and is not make him unable to of one mind with himself. an army. it it is in one man." "Come. b "Then the unjust man will also be an enemy to the gods. this must still be considered better: for the argument is not about just any question. go ahead and consider. an enemy both gods. c d [ 31 ] . will it remain undimin- "Let it remain undiminished. won't it?" "And the "Let it my friend." he "Then does it come to light as possessing a power such that. and the just man a friend. a clan. or else. since the wholly bad and perfectly unjust are also perfectly unable to accomplish anything—I say that I understand that these things are so and not as you set them down at first. Nevertheless." he said. to himself and to men. I suppose it it will do the same naturally accomplishes. be it in a city. and they pursued unjust deeds when they were only half bad from injustice. which is what we afterwards proposed for consideration. and as a result of this they accomplished what they accomplished. must be considered. answering just as you have been doing." "And then when thing which act. First is because he "Yes. Thrasymachus. it first of all makes that thing unable to accomplish anything together with itself due to faction and difference. in my opinion.

"Tell your opinion is there some work that belongs to a horse?" "Yes." he said." is." justly assert that this is the work of each?" 353 a "And what about "Of course." I said." "And what about work?" "Yes. We say that eyes have some work?" "They do." "and this in my opinion. too. "does there seem to you also to be a virtue for each thing to which some work is assigned? Let's return again to the same examples. or best with it?" "I don't understand." I said. or can do I than other things. in 352 d e "I shall." "Is there then a virtue of eyes." he thing." Irue." a virtue.socbates/thrasymachus the republic me. too?" "A virtue. shall we take this to be its work?" "We shall indeed. finely of each thing alone can do." "Would you take the work of a horse or of anything else whatsoever to be that which one can do only with it." "Now I suppose you can understand better what "Then I was asking a is moment ago when what b it I wanted to know whether the work more said. Could eyes ever do a fine job of their work if [ 32 ] . "Yes." "And what about ears?" this? Could you hear with anything other than "By no means. too?" "And what about They are. all other things? Aren't they the same?" "Stop for a moment. they do. the work of each "All right. it "Look at this way: is there anything with which you could see other than eyes?" "Surely not." this: you could cut a slip from a vine with a dag- ger or a leather-cutter or many other things?" "But I suppose you could not do as fine a job with anything other than a pruning knife made for this purpose. do understand." "Then wouldn't we "Certainly." ears? Wasn't it agreed that they have some "And do they have "Yes.

and badly with vice. too. "Then. instead of the virtue. or is that impossible?" "Impossible. "We unjust did so agree. shall "In we include everything else in the same argument?" is my opinion. and all such things could we justly attribute them to anything other than a soul and assert that they — are peculiar to it?" "To nothing else." he said. vice?" 353 c "How could they?" he said." "Then the just soul and the just man will have a good life." he said. man wretched. and injustice. "For I'm not yet asking but M'hether their work." "Of course. "according to your argument. consider this now: there some work of a soul that you couldn't ever accomplish with any other thing that is? For example." "It looks like it." "And." let's "Come." their virtue may be." a "Didn't vice?" we agree that justice is virtue of soul. and deliberating. further." work well if e "Then a bad soul necessarily rules and manages badly while good one does all these things well. managing." he said. the things to be done by them. tue?" "Certainly." "Then the just man is happy and the unjust "Let it be so." its "Then. will a soul ever accomplish deprived of its virtue. do we say that there is also some virtue of a soul?" "We do.Book I / 352d-354a socrates/thrasymachus they did not have their proper virtue but. "Will ears." d "Then." [ 33 ] . "For you probably mean blindness instead of sight. and the man man a 354 a who does not is the opposite." "What you say is true. at least. will be done well with their proper virtue. what about living? Shall we not say that it is the work of a soul?" "Most of all. Thrasymachus. and the bad one." "Necessarily. ruling. do their work badly when deprived of their vir- "Whatever that." he said." I said." "And the man who lives well is blessed and happy.

socrates/thbasymachus the republic not profitable to be wretched." Thrasymachus. "since you have grown being hard on me. I could not restrain myself from leaving the other one and going before. fill injustice is never more "Let that. However." Bendis. I shall hardly know whether it virtue or not and whether the one who has it is unhappy or I happy. my blessed profitable than justice. gentle and have left off what we were considering at first—what the just is— I let go of that and pursued the consideration of whether it is vice and lack of learning." he said. And later. For in my opinion. So long as is a do not know what the just is." [ 34] . "be the "I of your banquet at the festival of h Thrasymachus.45 Socrates. before they have in proper measure enjoyed what went it owe to you. but it's my own fault. Before finding out after this one." it is profitable to be "Of course "Then." I said. or wisdom and virtue. when in its turn an argument that injustice is more profitable than justice fell in my way. I am just like the gluttons who grab at whatever is set before them to get a taste of it. so that c now as a result of the discussion I know nothing. not yours. I have not had a fine banquet. rather " it is 354 a "But happy.

when I had said this. " I said. and the rest of the activities from which money made? We [ 35 ] ." I my said. do you want to seem to have us. a third form^ of good.BOOK II Now." I said. and so now he didn't accept Thrapersuaded "I 357 a symachus' giving up but said." he said. but because all own sake — we would choose we delight than the to in have it for such as enjoyment and after effects the pleasures which are in harmless "In and leave no having them?" Other a enjoyment good of this kind. then. "you're not doing what you want. "And do you see exercise. that it is in every way better to be b just than unjust?" would choose to persuade you truly. "if it were up to me. as it seems. such as thinking and seeing and being healthy? Surely we delight in such things on both accounts. But after all." "And what about this? Is there a kind we like both for its own sake and for what comes out of it. "Socrates. is there in your opinion a kind of good that not because its we desire its consequences. it was only a prelude." "Well. I thought I was freed from argument. which includes gymnastic well as medical treatment when sick as the is practice of medicine. Tell me. at least. 'there is c "Yes." opinion. For Glaucon is always most courageous in everything. or truly to persuade us.

that all those who practice it do so unwillingly. That's the reason why I'll speak in vehement praise of the unjust life." "I know this is the popular opinion. after all. for my part.glaucon/socrates Irllli ixllirUBLIC 357 c would say d that they are drudgery but beneficial to us. yet to my way of thinking there was still no proof about either. far better than that of the just man. has been charmed more quickly than he should have been. See if what I'm saying is what you want." he said." he said. "that it belongs in the finest going to be blessed should like both for itself and for what comes out of it. which should be practiced for the sake of wages and the reputation that comes from opinion. and first I'll tell what kind of thing they say justice is and where it came from. taken as being such. and suffering injustice bad." "Come." he said. as they say. I am at a loss: I've been talked deaf by Thrasymachus and countless others. while the argument on behalf of justice—that it is better than injustice—I've yet to hear from anyone as I want it. So I shall do it this way. third." " I said. and in speaking I'll point out to you how I want to hear you." I said. for the life of the unjust man is. in your turn. "but what of it?" "Yes. when they do injustice to one another and suffer it [ 36 ] . if you too consent: I'll restore Thrasymachus' argument. "What would an intelligent man enjoy talking and hearing about more again and again?" "What you say is quite fine. and see if you still have the same opinion. though that's not at all my own opinion. "would you include justice?" 358 a kind. but that the bad in suffering injustice far exceeds the good in doing it. that's not the opinion of the many. which the I said." he said. second." "Most of all. as it seems. and I suppose I would be most likely to learn that from you. But I. suppose. now. so that. and we would not choose to have them for themselves but for the sake of the wages and whatever else comes out of them. "and a while ago justice. For. like a snake. "They say that doing injustice is naturally good. was blamed by Thrasymachus while injustice was praised." I said. there is also this third "In which of them. blame injustice and praise justice. I want to hear it extolled all by itself. For I desire to hear what each is and what power it has all alone by itself when it is in the soul—dismissing its wages and its consequences. "hear me too. "Now listen to what I said I was going to tell first—what justice is and where it came from. "rather it "I. For it looks to me as though Thrasymachus." man who is b c d e seems to belong to the form of drudgery. as necessary but not good. that it is fitting that they do so. Socrates. am a poor learner." "Well.^ but all by itself it should be fled from as something hard.

It had windows. he became invisible. when he did this. and they discussed him as though he were away. it is a mean between what is best doing injustice without paying the penalty—and what is worst—suffering injustice without being able to avenge oneself. from an incapacity to do injustice. a hollow bronze horse. we would best perceive if we should in thought do something like this: give each. Now. while we follow and watch where his desire will lead each. The just is in the middle between these two. wondered at it. and went down. once got. toward the inside of his hand. Thinking this over. "That even those who practice it do so unwillingly. when outward. he slipped it off and went out. he twisted the collet toward the outside. He saw it.* the Lydian. The license of which I speak would best be — b c realized if they should come into possession of the sort of power that it is said the ancestor of Gyges. Now the nature of justice is this and of this sort. he saw there was a corpse inside that looked larger than human size. He'd be mad. So the argument goes. fingering the ring again. Aware of this. And this. and it naturally grows out of these sorts of things. wearing the ring. d e 360 a He wondered at this. The man who is able to do it and is truly a man would never set down a compact with anyone not to do injustice and not to suffer it. is the genesis and being of justice. he chanced to turn the collet of the ring to himself. peeping in. When there was the usual gathering of the shepherds to make the monthly report to the king about the flocks. He saw. the earth cracked and a chasm opened at the place where he was pasturing. he tested whether the ring had this power. he immediately contrived to [ 37] . and. he became invisible to those sitting by him. We would catch the just man red-handed going the same way as the unjust man out of a desire to get the better. while it is law^ which by force perverts it to honor equality. he too came.Book II / 357c-360a glaucon and taste of both. then. it seems profitable—to those who are not able to escape the one and choose the other—to set down a compact among themselves neither to do injustice nor to suffer it. along with other quite wonderful things about which they tell tales. while he was sitting with the others. this is what any nature naturally pursues as good. They say he was a shepherd toiling in the service of the man who was then ruling Lydia. he became visible. and that was exactly his result: when he turned the collet inward. the just man and the unjust. when he had twisted it. And from there they 358 e 359 a began to set down their own laws and compacts and to name what the law commands lawful and just. cared for not because it is good but because it is honored due to a want of vigor in doing injustice. visible. It had nothing on except a gold ring on its hand. license to do whatever he wants. There came to pass a great thunderstorm and an earthquake.

and nothing must be taken away. and to do other things as an equal to a god among humans. and to go into houses and have intercourse with whomever he wanted. let 360 a b When ^ d e the unjust man act like the clever craftsmen. to the king. if any of his unjust deeds should come to light. and get away with them. and the unjust man the other. after all. and he attempts the one. deceiving each other for fear of suffering injustice. since if a man were to get hold of such license and. he should trip up in anything. set upon the king and killed him. all men suppose injustice is far more to their private profit than justice. "As to the judgment itself about the life of these two of whom we are speaking. although he had license to take what he wanted from the market without fear. we'll be able to make it correctly if we set the most just man and the most unjust in opposition. one would act no differently from the other. So. Indeed. he has the power to set himself aright. and to slay orrelease from bonds whomever he wanted. if we do not. So much for that. he would seem most wretched to those who were aware of it. And so he took over the rule. and lets the other go. Men do not take it to be a good for them in private. he does it.GLAucoN THE REPUBLIC be one of the messengers he arrived. as it would seem. For the extreme of injustice is to seem to be just when one is not. someone could say that this is a great proof that no one is willingly just but only when compelled to be so. An outstanding 361 a his art is aware of the difference between what is impossible in and what is possible. So the perfectly unjust man must be given the most perfect injustice. And in so doing. no one. after all. since wherever each supposes he can do injustice. would be so adamant as to stick by justice and bring himself to keep away from what belongs to others and not lay hold of it. first. and the just man would put one on. And if. The man who is caught must be considered a poor chap. "Now if there were two such rings. Similarly. he committed adultery with the king's wife and. And what they suppose is true.were never willing to do any injustice and didn't lay his hands on what belongs to others. although they would praise him to each others' faces. What. he is competent pilot or doctor h man also attempt unjust deeds correctly. but both would go the same way. then. he is to set himself aright. he should still trip up in any way. he must be allowed to do the greatest injustices while having provided himself with the greatest reputation for justice. And yet. but we shall take each as perfect in his own pursuit. and most foolish too. is this opposition? It is as follows: we shall take away nothing from the injustice of the unjust man nor from the justice of the just man. we won't be able to do so. as the man who makes this kind of an argument will say. let the unjust [ 38 ] . and if. if he is going to be extremely unjust. along with her.

It must be told. how vigorously you polish up each of the two men—just like a statue—^for their judgment. just. who. In getting the better. he'll be bound. So he must be stripped of everything except justice. good. Doing no injustice. but rather those who praise injustice ahead of justice. when he enters contests. both private and public. at the end. he is wealthy and does good to friends and harm to c [ 39 ] . he'-rules in h the city because he seems to be just. They'll say that the just man who has such a disposition will be whipped. Then he takes in marriage from whatever station he wants and gives in marriage to whomever he wants. to the extent that force is needed. he wins and gets the better of his enemies. my.w Book 11 / 360a-362c glaucon/socbates capable both of speaking persuasively and of using force. First. he contracts and has partnerships with whomever he wants." he said. For really. they will say." "As much as I can. And if it's somewhat suppose that it is I who speak. let us set him down as such. to complete the speech by a description of the kind of life that awaits each. the other of injustice ^they can be judged as to which of the two is hap- softened by bad reputation and changed till death. a man simple and noble. So then. seeming throughout — d — pier. but rather to be. then. Aeschylus' saying applies far more correctly to the unjust man. and. but to seem to be. he gains because he has no qualms about doing injustice. besides benefiting himself in all this.^ does not wish to seem. rustically told. he'll be crucified and know that one shouldn't wish to be. let him have the put to the greatest reputatest to see if it is tion for injustice. just. For if he should would be honors and gifts for him for seeming to be c wouldn't be plain whether he is such for the sake of the just or for the sake of the gifts and honors. and put beside him in the argument the just man in his turn. "With two such men it's no longer hard. when he has undergone every sort of evil." I said. so that when each has come to the extreme ^the one of justice. so that his justice may be its consequences. he'll have both his eyes burned out. 361 I seem such. don't ( 362 c Reaping a deep furrow in his mind From which trusty plans bear fruit. it is the unjust man. and his situation must be made the opposite of the first Then man's. Let him go unlife to be unjust although he is just. who does not wish to seem unjust but to be unjust. I suppose. After all. there it The seeming must be taken away. "my dear Glaucon. Socrates. since he is courageous and strong and since he has provided for friends and money. he'll be racked. according to Aeschylus. Now. and. because he pursues a thing dependent on truth and does not live in the light of opinion." "My.

"as the saying goes. come to his defense. that one must be just. "Why not?" I said. a man stand by his e And yet. And in this way they join both the noble Hesiod and Homer. make it impossible to help out justice. they can tell of an inexhaustible store of goods that they say gods give to the holy. if he leaves out anything. In their speech they lead them into Hades and lay them [ 40 ] . a better life is provided for the unjust man than for the just man. And these men tell even more of the things resulting from the opinions. We must also go 363 a through the arguments opposed to those of which he spoke. as do all those who have care of anyone. as a result of the opinion. fathers say to their sons and exhort them. and the sea provides fish."' So. the fleecy sheep heavily laden with wool^ and many other very good things connected with these. The former says that for the just the gods make the oaks b And has pretty Bear acorns on high. "Nonsense. they exhort their charges to be just so that. said. "You surely don't believe. those that praise justice and blame injustice. And the other much the same to tell. Thus. so that what Glaucon in my opinion wants will be clearer. and cares for the gods and those human beings he wants to care for far better than the just man." When Glaucon had said this. For by throwing in good reputation with the gods. I had it in mind to say something to it. the trees are laden with fruit. it is also more appropriate for him to be dearer to the gods than is the just man. So. they don't praise justice by itself but the good reputations that come from it. Socrates.glaucon/adeimantus/socrates the republic 362 c d To the gods he makes sacrifices and sets up votive offerings. c The sheep bring forth without fail." he said. what he said was already enough to bring me to my knees and this too. that the argument has been adequately stated?" enemies. as when he says. However. I to be said has not been 'let said. but his brother Adeimantus said in his turn. with gods and with humans. adequate and magnificent. "What most needed "Then. and bees in the middle. Socrates. they say. No doubt. in all hkehhood. the black earth bears Barley and wheat. But still hear you too." brother. ruling offices and marriages will come to the one who seems to be just. and all the other things that Glaucon a moment ago attributed to the just man as a result of his having a good reputation." And he said.^ And Musaeus and his son give the just even headier goods than these from the gods. As for some blameless king who in fear of the gods Upholds justice.

those penalties that Glaucon described as the lot of the just men who are reputed to be unjust. or his ancestors. they are ready and willing to call happy and to honor bad men who have wealth or some other power and to dishonor and overlook those who happen in some way to be weak or poor. But they have nothing else to say. is smooth and it lies very near. has committed some injustice. Vice 364 a b c The abundance is easy to choose. This then is the praise and blame attached to each.Book 11 / 362c-364e adeimantus down on holy. but hard and full of drudgery. in turn. and they present it as easy. and an opposite fate to opposite men. and they bring them into bad reputation while they are still alive. If he himself. ^ and gentle vows and [ 41 ] . And it is a long road. rough and steep. spoken in prose^^ and by poets. as they say. With one tongue they all chant that moderation and justice are fair. after all. For they say that a holy and oath-keeping man leaves his children's children and a whole tribe behind him. They say that the gods.^" Others extend the wages from the gods yet further than these. saying that. they can heal it with pleasures and feasts. and both in public and in private. Thus. So in these and like ways they extol justice. and if he wishes to ruin some enemies at small expense. While the gods have set sweat before virtue. consider still another form of speeches about justice and injustice. Socrates. he will injure just and unjust alike with certain evocations and spells. allot misfortune and a bad life to many good men too. while intemperance and injustice are sweet and easy to acquire. they bury the unholy and unjust in mud in Hades and compel them to carry water in a sieve. Beggar priests and diviners go to the doors of the rich man and persuade him that the gods have provided them with a power based on sacrifices and incantations. these people say are the lot of the unjust. crowning them. and shameful only by opinion and law. They say that the unjust is for the most part more profitable than the just. in the behef that the finest wage of virtue is an eternal drunk. although they agree they are better than the others. They. couches. they prepare a symposium of the and they then make them go through the rest of time drunk. But the most wonderful of all these speeches are those they give about gods and virtue. '^ in d road And man they use Homer as a witness to the perversion of the gods by hu- beings because he too said: The very gods can be moved by With sacrifices prayer too. And. 363 c d e "Furthermore. persuade the gods to serve them. And they bring the poets forward as witnesses to all these arguments about vice.

thus we'll get the better and not pay the penalty. These. while. And there are also rites for those who are dead. terrible things are waiting.' says someone.' 'But it surely isn't possible to get away from the gods or overpower them.' we'll say. b dear Socrates.^'* deliver us from the evils in the other place. why should we care at all about getting away? And if there are gods and they care. while behind it I must trail the wily and subtle fox of the most wise Archilochus. while the labors and penalties involved are evident. after Pindar. soothcieties happy we must go where the tracks of the getting away with it. we'll organize secret so- [ 42 I . in some things we'll persuade and in others use force.' 'But. as they say. As facade reputation for justice. "with all these things being said—of and in this quantity— about virtue and vice and how human beings and gods honor them. according to whose prescriptions they busy tliemselves about their sacrifices. but cities as well. 'But at all we e arguments lead. but have provided myself with a scale the higher wall' life? where I can my c promised. what do we suppose they do to the souls of the young men who hear them? I mean those who have good natures and have the capacity. and these are the very sources of our being told that they are such as to be persuaded and perverted by sacrifices. and there are teachers of persuasion who offer the wisdom of the public assembly and the court. 'it's not always easy to do bad and get d away with events. offspring of the Moon and the Muses. a divine life is and exterior I must draw a shadow painting^® of virtue all around me. deliverances and purifications from unjust deeds for those still living. In all likelihood he would say this sort "My to himself. For. we know of them or have heard of them from nowhere else than the laws^^ and the poets who have given genealogies. since as the wise make plain to me.^^ 304 e When And they present a babble of books by Musaeus and Orpheus. Therefore. for those who did not sacrifice. as it were. human beings them aside with their prayers. if I don't also seem to be. as to and clubs. if it unnoticed." he said. which they call initiations. But if I'm unjust. after all. They per- 365 a suade not only private persons.^'' 'But. will I 'with justice or with crooked deceits fortify myself all around and live out For the things said indicate that there is no advantage in my being just. 'the seeming overpowers even the truth'^^ and is the master of happiness.' 'Nothing great are going to be is easy. On this basis. or if they have no care for human things. if there are no gods. one must surely turn wholly to it. that through sacrifices and pleasurable games there are. to fly to all the things that are said and gather from them what sort of man one should be and what way one must follow to go through life best.ADEIMANTUS THE REPUBLIC The odor turn of burnt and drink offerings. someone has transgressed and made a mistake.

itself and gifts that come from them. And we'll refuse the gains of injustice. And there is no other cause of all this than that which gave rise to this whole argument of his and mine with you.Book 11 / 364e-367a adeimantus ing vows. For the first man of this kind to come to power is the first to do injustice to the best of his ability. Either both things must be believed or neither. and votive offerings. by what device. Socrates. will a man who has some power—of soul. he knows that except for someone who from a divine nature cannot stand doing injustice or who has gained knowledge and keeps away from injustice. we shall gain and get off unpunished as well. either the we ourselves or our children's children.' will say man who calculates. so goes the speech of both the many and the eminent. After all that has been said. And that this is so is plain. if we possess it with a counterfeited seemly exterior. c d We e reputations. 'the initiations and the delivering gods have great power. or old age. of you had spoken in this way from 367 a [ 43 ] . as say the greatest cities and those children of gods who this is ^ have become poets and spokesmen of the gods and reveal that the case. he undoubtedly has great sympathy for the unjust and is not angry with them.' "Then. my dear.' have in it. if someone can show that what we have said is false and if he has adequate knowledge that justice is best. For the beginning and persuaded us. of all you who clairn to be praisers of justice—beginning with the heroes^^ at the beginning (those who have left speeches) up to the human beings of the present— there is not one who has ever blamed injustice or praised justice other than for the said. '^^^ ^ For if we are just. consequently. If they are to be beheved. honors. money. we'll fare as we are minded with gods and human beings both while we are living and when we are dead. we would not keep guard over each other for fear injustice be done.' 'But. afraid that in doing injustice he would dwell with the greatest evil. or some other weakness. 'You surprising man. But it as to what each does with it its is own power when is in the soul of a man who is possesses and not noticed by gods and men. but each would be his own best guard. But if we are unjust. Socrates. by persuading the gods with prayers when we transgress and make mistakes. adequately developed the argument that the one greatest of evils a soul can if all and justice the greatest good. but because of a lack of courage. in the poetry or prose. by what further argument could we choose justice before the greatest injustice? For. no one has ever. body or family—be made willing to honor justice and not laugh when he hears it praised? So.' 'But in Hades we'll pay the penalty for our injustices here. no one else is willingly just. That is all. men blame injustice because they are unable to do it. we won't be "^^^ ^ punished by the gods. from youth onwards. injustice must be done and sacrifice offered from the unjust acquisitions.

And take away the reputations. I That. but show what each in itself does to the man who has it—whether it is noticed by gods and human beings or not—that makes the one good and the other injustice bad. since. Now. but show what each in itself does to the man who has it that makes the one bad and the other good. at this time I was particularly delighted and said." I listened.2i that Glaucon's lover made to his poem about your distinguish- 368 a ing yourselves in the battle at Megara: Sons of Ariston. and that you're exhorting one to be unjust and to get away with it. and what harm does e do? Leave wages and reputations to others to praise. don't only show us by the argument that justice is stronger than injustice. and that you agree with Thrasymachus that the just is someone else's good. And the more I trust you. nor blaming being unjust but the seeming. and perhaps yet more than this. extolling and abusing them in tenns of reputations and wages. of course. and. would Thrasymachus and possibly someone else say about justice and injustice. on the basis of the arguments themselves. On the one hand. speak as vehemently as I can. don't only show us by the argument that justice is stronger^^ than injustice. the advantage of the stronger.you are remaining unpersuaded that injustice is better than justice when you are able to speak that way on its behalf. So. because you have spent your whole life considering nothing other than this. you children of that man. in my opinion is good. Of what greatest that are goods—those much more for themselves. I infer it from the rest of your character. For something quite divine must certainly have happened to you. as Glaucon told you to. if. while the unjust is one's own advantage and profitable. Socrates.^^ divine offspring of a fiimous man. But I—for I need hide nothing from you—out of my desire to hear the opposite from you. Now you truly don't seem to me to be being persuaded. thinking. and although I had always been full of wonder at the nature of Glaucon and Adeimantus. but disadvantageous to the weaker. profit is justice in itself to the man who possesses it. but from you I couldn't. we'll say that you aren't praising the just but the seeming. Now. I could endure other men's praising justice and blaming injustice in this way. unless you were to order me to. hearing. "That wasn't a bad beginning. being healthy and all the other goods that are fruitful by their own nature and not by opinion—upraise this aspect of justice. the more I'm at a loss as to what I should do. I would distrust you. in my opinion at least. vulgarly turning their powers upside down. For if you don't take the true reputation from each and attach the false one to it. since you agreed that justice is among the but d worth having for what coines from them such as seeing. b my friends.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THEKEPUBLlC 367 a b c "This. [ 44 ] .

can we hope to see what we're looking h more "Is it easily?" "Far more easily. On the other hand. my proof is that when I thought I showed in what I said to Thrasymachus that justice is better than injustice. should watch a city coming into being in speech.Book II / 367a-369b socrates/adeimantu For in my opinion I'm not capable of it. justice of a whole city too?" "Certainly. but bigger and in a bigger place. "But. "Don't do anything I else." he said. justice of one man. Socrates." said Adeimantus. you didn't accept it from me. If you want. ordered men who don't see very sharply to read little letters from afar and then someone had the thought that the same letters are somewhere else also. also see its justice coming into being. perhaps there would be more justice in the bigger and it would be easier to observe closely. what do you notice in the investigation of the just that's like this?" "I'll tell d t you." said Adeimantus. "When for this has been done." "Well. "a city. if. I suppose it would look like a godsend to be able to consider the littler ones after having read these first." resolved^s that we must it. for example. considering the likeness of the bigger in the ideaP-'^ of the littler?" 369 a "What you say seems we "would we "If fine to me. we'll also go on to consider it in individuals. "It looks to me as though the investigation we are undertaking is no ordinary thing. For I'm afraid it might be impious to be here when justice is being spoken badly of and give up and not bring help while I am still breathing and able to make a sound. and its injustice?" "Probably. Then. first we'll investigate what justice is like in the cities. of course. "in my opinion we should make this kind of investigation of it: if someone had. but rather to seek out what each is and the truth about the benefit of both." he said. 368 i c cour her as not to give I am able. "So then. but one for a man who sees sharply. "There is." I said." I said. surely." said." "Most certainly." try to carry this out? I suppose it's no small "It's job. they do happen to be the same. So I spoke my opinion." I said." Glaucon and the others begged me in every way to help out and up the argument. "Is a city bigger^^ than one man?" "Yes. Since we're not clever men. it is bigger. so consider been considered. then. comes into being be- [ 45 ] ." he said. as I believe. we say. and there is. I can't not help out. So the best thing is to succan't help out." he said.

in the belief that to another. I said." I said." he said.socrates/adeimantus the republic Do you 369 b cause each of us isn't self-sufficient but is in need of much. thought when you spoke that. as " seems. now. "Perhaps. when one man takes on another. does one man give a share share." e city of utmost necessity^^ would be made of four or five "It looks like it. "How be sufficient to provide for much? Won't one man be a farmer. then. not taking the trouble to share in common with others." "Come. by Zeus." "Now. the latter is easier man. each of us is naturally "I not quite like anyone else. since many we?" things are needed. many men gather in one settlement as partners and helpers. the first and existing and living. at all. of course." "Second. to this common settlement we give the name city. "let's it make a city in speech from the begin" Our need. different b men are apt for the accomplishment of difiFerent jobs. provide food for four ' than the former. now. and still another. Socrates." "The men. a weaver? Or shall we add to it a shoemaker or some other man who cares for what has to do with the body?" "Certainly. in the first myself also had the place. or take a share. and such." is housing. must the farmer. or must he neglect them and produce a fourth part of the food in a fourth part of the time and use the other three parts for the provision of a house. and third. believe there's another beginning to the founding of a city?" "None c "So. "It wouldn't be strange. " greatest of needs is the provision of food "Certainly." ning. Isn't that your opinion?" "It is." 46 . what about the disposition of all this? Must each one in common — for them put his work at example. for one need and another for another need. "Well. clothing. will make it. one of 370 a and spend four times as much time and labor in the provision of food and then give it in common to the others. and. "That's so." "Now. but minding his own business for himself? And Adeimantus said. don't "Most certainly. " I said." will the city "Now this wait. d for "Of course. if he does give a it's better for himself?" "Certainly. clothing. another the housebuilder. but rather differs in his nature.^^ and shoes.

they will be needed. it is completely ruined. won't he?" "It seems so to me. "And. if we added cowherds. but it's necessary for the man who does it to follow close upon the thing done. or his hoe." sort be- certainly. won't make his own plow himself." "Then they must produce at home not only enough for themselves but also the sort of thing and in the quantity needed by these others of whom they have need." he said." "I don't man who "It is c necessary." the suppose the thing done is willing to await the leisure of does it. bringing nothing needed by those from whom they take what they themselves need. the housebuilders teams to use with the farmers for hauling." e "Yes. does one thing accord- on ing to nature and at the crucial moment. one art. easier. if it's going to be a fine one." wouldn't be very big yet." more citizens than four which we were speaking." he said. shepherds. it is 370 b plain. carpenters. For the farmer. that if a man lets the crumoment in any work pass. or one man one art?" "One man." this basis "So. "So." I said. and many other craftsmen of this making it into a throng. as it seems. and the other kinds of herdsmen. exempt from other tasks. Adeimantus. it is impossible. and when one man. and not as a spare-time occupation." "Then. there will also be a need for still other men who will bring to it what's needed from another city." 377 a [ 47 ] . there's need of for the provisions of "Now. finer." "Yes. or the rest of the tools for farming. "when it has all this. and the weavers and cobblers hides and wool. "just to found the city itself in the sort of place where there will be no need of imports is pretty nearly impossible. if the agent comes empty-handed. won't it?" then. I suppose." "Now. smiths. so that the farmers would have oxen for plowing. and the housebuilder won't either—and he needs many too. d True." "And. he'll go away empty-handed. it's also plain. come partners "Most "But it in our little city. further." "Yes. what about this? Who would do a finer job. one man pracmany arts." "Nor would it be a little city.Book 11 / 369b-371a socrates/adeimantus ticing cial "And." "That's entirely certain. further. each thing becomes more plentiful. And it will be the same with the weaver and the shoemaker.

" "Throngs. they are. Adeimantus?" [ 48 ] . "by buying and selling." I said. then." d any other craftsman brings what he has produced to the market. "Then." "Most c certainly." "Certainly. they must. indeed." "Out of this we'll get a market^^ and an established currency^^ as a token for exchange. go to fill out the city. in rightly governed cities they are usually those whose bodies are weakest and are useless for doing any other job." "Don't we tradesmen those men who are set up in the market to serve in buying and selling." "And b if the commerce is carried on by sea. They must stay there in the market and exchange things for money with those who need to sell something and exchange. will he sit in the market idle." "So our city needs more farmers and other craftsmen. as city already it seems." he said. and he doesn't arrive at the same time as those who need what he has to exchange. They are merchants. still some other sei'vants who." seems so to me. for money again. in terms of their minds. aren't they?" certainly." he said. I suppose. but whose bodies are strong enough for labor. called wage earners. I suppose. with "If the farmer or all those call who need to buy something." "It does need more." "And similarly. how will they exchange what they have produced with one another? It was for just this that we made a partnership and founded the city. "This need." "Then has our grown to completeness. "There are men who see this situation and set themselves to this service. his craft unattended?" "Not at all. there will also be need of throngs of other men who know the business of the sea. other agents as well. and merchants those who wander among the cities?" g "Most certainly." "Now what about this? In the city itself. because they call their price a wage." "Plainly. aren't they?" Yes. we'll need merchants too." "There are. produces tradesmen in our city.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLIC 371 a "Yes. They sell the use of their strength and. wouldn't be quite up to the level of partnership. who will import and export the various products." "Most "It "So the wage earners too. surely.

let's look at a feverish city. let's consider what manner of life men so provided for will lead. we'll c — set desserts before them—figs. for the most part naked and without shoes. pulse and beans. and shoes? And.Book II / 37Ia-373a adeimantus/socrates/glaugon "Perhaps. "It really must be considered and we mustn't back away. opinion the one we just described— healthy city. and they'll roast myrtlefire berries and drink in measure along with it. as it seems. too it's plain they'll have salt. Glaucon?" I "As is conventional. For food they will prepare barley meal and wheat flour. but couches." I said. this?" said. cheese. the true^i my 373 ^^ [ 49] . and in the winter adequately clothed and shod. "I not only that's how a city. they will stretch out on rushes strewn with yew and myrtle and feast themselves and their children. Nothing stands in the way. Socrates. So they will have sweet intercourse with one another. tables. "I suppose men who aren't going to be wretched recline on couches^*' and eat from tables and have relishes and desserts just like men have nowadays." And Glaucon interrupted. "Well. be? Along with which of the things we considered did they come into being?" "I can't think. "If you were providing would you fatten them than should it for a city of sows. and they will boil onions and greens. For these things. or this way of life. they will work in the summer. keeping an eye out against poverty or war. dying as old men. Socrates. And to be sure. Won't they make bread." 371 g it. clothing. they will cook it and knead it. And so they will live out their lives in peace with health. comes into being. Afterwards they will drink wine and. just as one gets them in the country. sing of the gods. when they have built houses." "What you say is true. would justice and injustice 372 a h of barley and wheat on some reeds or clean leaves." "All right. they will hand down other similar lives to and acorns before the their offspring. For in considering such a city too. considering city. as it were. how be." I g said. and not produce children beyond their means. in we could probably see what way city is and injustice naturally grow in cities." d And he on what else said. wine. "I forgot that they'll have relishes. and other furniture Now. as is likely. won't satisfy some. if you want to. Perhaps are. Setting out noble loaves in "Where then. But. saying: "You seem to make these men have their feast without relishes. crowned with wreathes. and at last." he said. as it not bad either. olives. First." he said. understand. "unless it's somewhere in some need these men have of one another. too. but also a luxurious justice in We seems." I said." "Perhaps what you say is fine.

And. and not by a small whole army. we can't still postulate the mere necessities we were talking about at first—houses. and. This animal wasn't in our earlier city—there was no need—but in this one there will be need of it in addition. wet nurses. Glaucon? Or how will it be?" not yet say whether "Like that. which are not in cities because of necessity— all the hunters and imitators. "And let's war works in its evil or good. choral dancers. incense. Socrates. further. that we have turn found the origin of war—in those things whose presence in cities most of all produces evils both private and public. ivory." "And the land. Or g "Then must we cut off a piece of our neighbors' land. won't there?" "Of course. barbers. many with music." he said. courtesans and cakes—all sorts of all of them." "Most certainly. for feminine adomc d And so we'll need more servants too." "Now. but must already be gorged with a bulky mass of things. if they let themselves go to the unlimited acquisition of money. beauticians. "After that won't we go to war as a consequence. contractors. it doesn't seem there will way of life rather than the earlier one?" "Much greater. many concerned with figures and colors. And there'll also be need of very many other fatted beasts if someone will eat them. 374 a my friend. and everything of the sort must be obtained. which will go out and do battle with in- [ 50 ] . small although was sufficient." I said. relish-makers and cooks? And. "but only this much. of course." "Won't we be in much greater need of doctors if we follow this ment as well as other things. and. perfume. what's more. which was then sufficient for it feeding the men who were then." he said. governesses. and gold. actors. This healthy one isn't adequate any more. and shoes. and craftsmen of all sorts of equipment." he said. and they in turn from ours. and poets and their helpers. we're in addition going to need swineherds." he said. "Then the city must be made bigger again. if we are going to have sufficient for pasture and tillage. but painting and embroidery must also be set in motion. relishes.sochates/glaucon there public 373 a be added. in particular. clothes. will now be how should we say it?" "Like that. Or be need of teachers. rhapsodes. the city number but by a must be still bigger. Isn't will that so?" h "Yes. overstepping the boundary of the necessary?" "Quite necessarily. of course.

" he said.Book 11 / 373a-374e socRATEs/GLAuco^ vaders for about." he said. for the pursuit?" "And also a nature "Of course. exempt from the other tasks. Isn't it of the greatest importance that what has to do with war be well done? Or is it so easy that a farmer or a shoemaker or a man practicing any other art whatsoever can be at the same time skilled in the art of war. at which he was to work throughout his life. "doesn't the struggle for victory in war seem to be a matter for art?" "Very much so. the one for which his nature fitted him. "I certainly as well as greater art would require more and diligence." he said. not letting the crucial moments pass." all the wealth and all the things we were just now talking 374 c "What." I said. "to the extent that the it would be worth a lot. after all. we prevented the shoemaker from trying at the same time to be a farmer or a weaver or a housebuilder. "Surely you remember.^^ or any other kind of battle in war. he had to stay a shoemaker just so the shoemaker's art would produce fine work for us. to each one of the others we assigned one thing. "the tools "Then. in if fashioning the city. "Should one really care for the art of shoemaking more than for the art of war?" "Not at all. as it seems." impossible we were for one man to do in agree- a fine job many say is true." he said. to choose." he said. nor will it eyen be of use to the man "What you i who mg? has not gained knowledge of it or undergone adequate train- "In that case." said." it's I said." "But. "Well then. if he picks up a shield or any other weapon or tool of war." I said. on that very day be an adequate combatant in a battle of heavy-armed soldiers." work of the guardians is more important. if we're able. even though no other tool if picked up will make anyone a craftsman or contestant." fit leisure time than the other tasks think so. "aren't they adequate by themselves?" "Not if that was a fine agreement you and all we others made when we were ment. while no one could become an adequate draughts or dice player who didn't practice it frorri childhood on." "Indeed it is our job." I no mean thing we've taken upon our- [ 51 ] . fit for guarding the city. And in the same way. "it's "By Zeus. and thus doing a fine job." "Then it's our job. which are the natures. but only gave it his spare time? Will a man. and what kind they are. that arts.

looking said." 375 a "No. we mustn't be cowardly." he said. my friend. finally. they not. if a man lacks either of them." "And as for the soul's— that he must be spirited. "with such natures." "True. "it won't be easy. back over what had gone before. "we mustn't. but they'll do it themnot selves beforehand." "Yes. at least as far as it's 374 e selves. so that its presence makes every soul fearless and invincible in the face of everything?" "Yes." "I'm afraid so. "Where will we find a disposition at is the same time gentle and great-spirited? Surely a gentle nature to a spirited one. strength if they have to fight it out with what they have caught. surely both of them need sharp senses." "Then." b he said. I have noticed it. too was at a loss. "It looks like it. that we're at a loss." I said." "Glaucon. he can't become a good it guardian." he said." I said. they'll "What posed will we do?" I said." "That too. "that for ference between the nature of a any difnoble puppy and that of a well-bom guarding there is young man?" "What do you mean?" "Well." "Of course. indeed. "Yet. If wait for others to destroy them. it's plain how the guardian must be." op- "Yet. I For we've abandoned the image we proposed. "It is just." "As for the body's characteristics." "How do you mean?" "We didn't notice that there are. will horse or dog—or any other animal whatsoever—be willing to be courageous if it's not spirited? Haven't you noticed how irresistible and unbeatable spirit^^ is. if they are to fight well. and.socrates/glaucon the republic But nevertheless." "Do you suppose. But these conditions resemble impossibilities." "Yes. and. and so fol- d lows that a good guardian I is impossible. in our power." c must be gentle to their own and cruel to enemies." he said. "both need all these things." he said." "To say nothing of courage. after all. natures such as we [ 52 ] . how will they not be savage to one another and the rest of the citizens?" "By Zeus. speed to catch what they perceive.

"but aren't love of learning and love of wisdom the same?" "Yes. then. that e the disposition of noble dogs to as gentle as in the guardian isn't against nature. in the 375 d by nature can be with their familiars and people they know and the opposite with those they don't know. must by nature be a philosopher and a lover of learning?" c he said." I said." "It doesn't seem "In your opinion." "What?" "When it sees someone it doesn't know." so. "So shall we be bold and assert that a human being too. "And so." I said. be of course." I said." he said. and "Yes." "Where. also to be a philosopher in his "How's that?" he said. "I don't understand. does the nature?"** man who will be a fit guardian need. "it is possible. But it's plain that it really does this. I haven't paid very much attention to it up to now. it's angry." I 376 a it's "This. the same. in addition to spiritedness." he said." "Well. And when sees someone knows. "and a thing in the beast worthy of our wonder. especially. too." "Then the man who's going to be a fine and good^s guardian of the city for us will in his nature be philosophic. then?" "One could see it in other animals too. spirited." "Then. is we compared You know. after all. it greets him warmly." "I do know that. "let's assert it." strong. and what we're seeking for one to the guardian. if he is going to be gentle to his own and those known to him. even if it never had a good experience with him. possessing these opposites. "Well. you'll observe in dogs. swift. however. how can it be anything other than a lover of learning since it defines what's its own and what's alien by knowledge and "In that other than ignorance?" "It surely couldn't be anything but." b "In what way?" it distinguishes friendly from hostile looks by nothing by having learned the one and being ignorant of the other. Didn't you ever wonder about this before?" "No." [ 53 ] . this does look like an attractive affection of its nature and truly philosophic." said.Book JI / 374e-376c socorates/glaucon thought impossible. although it it it never had any bad experience with him.

" like mustn't. But how. let's turns out to be quite long. will they be reared and educated by us? And does our considering this contribute anything to our goal of discerning that for the sake of which we are considering all these things—^in what way justice and injustice come into being in a city? We don't want to scant the argument. exactly. "Won't we begin educating in music before gymnastic?" "Of course. one than that discovered over a great expanse of time? It of course. "Then he would be of this sort to begin with. then." "Come. as a whole. but first in the false?" understand how you mean that." "Then shall we so easily let the children hear just any tales fashioned by just anyone and take into their souls opinions for the most [ . gymnastic and music^^ it is." And Glaucon's brother said." he said. false." "Do speeches have "Yes.54 ] . "I most certainly expect that this "That's entirely certain. We make use of tales with children before exer"I don't "Must they be edvicated cises." present consideration will contribute to that goal. if it it my dear Adeimantus. "I do." "By Zevis." I said. don't you?" I said." for the soul. h "Don't you know that the beginning is the most important part of every work and that this is especially so with anything young and tender? For at that stage it's most plastic." I said." is "What for bodies the education? Isn't it difficult to find a better is." to give to it. "Don't you understand. educate the e men telling tales in a tale and at their leisure." "That's so. though there are true things in them too. and each thing assimilates itself to the model whose stamp anyone wishes "Quite so. it mustn't be given up even "No. men in speech.glaucon/sochates/adeimantus the republic 376 c d he said." "That's what I meant by saying music must be taken up before gymnastic." "You include speeches in music. "then. but we don't want an overlong one either." "That's right. the other false?" 377 a in both." "We must. "that first we tell tales to children? And surely they are. the one true." "Yes." he said." a double form.

" "The ones Hesiod and Homer told us. and the other poets too. "Nor must it be said within the hearing of a young person that in doing the extremes of injustice.Book II 1 376c-378b socrates/adeimantus part opposite to those we'll suppose they must have when they are 377 b grown up?" "In no event will "First. "especially if the lie a man a tells isn't a fine one." he said. "and what do you mean to blame in them?" "What ought to be blamed first and foremost. Adeimantus. not of a pig but of some great offering that's hard to in "When man e and heroes are like." he said. it's right to blame such things." "Yes.^^ not even if they were true would I suppose they should so easily be told to thoughtless young things. "And they mustn't be spoken in our city. but if there were some necessity to tell. "In the greater tales we'll also see the smaller ones. it must rejected. as few as possible ought to hear them as unspeakable secrets. We'll persuade nurses and mothers to tell the approved tales to their children and to shape their souls with tales more than their bodies with hands. They surely composed false tales for human beings and used to tell them and still do tell them. we permit it." "But what sort. "But how do we mean this and what sort of thing is it?" "First. and if be approved." "Which sort?" he said. he would do nothing to be wondered at." "What's that?" speech makes a bad representation of what gods a painter who paints something that doesn't resemble the things whose likeness he wished to paint." by. he said. Most of those they now tell must be thrown out. but if it's not. "But I don't grasp what you mean by the greater seems. it must be they make-*'^ a fine tale.^^ And Cronos' deeds and his sufferings at the hands of his son. after making a sacrifice. as it the makers of tales. just as — 378 a come ber. 'the man who told the biggest lie about the biggest things didn't tell a fine lie how Uranus did what Hesiod says he did." I said." he said." I said. best would be to keep quiet. "For both the greater and the smaller must be taken from the same model and have the same power. or that in punishing the unjust deeds of his father in every way." we must supervise c d ones. but would " b [ 55] ." I said. Don't you suppose so?" "I do." I said. so that it will come to the ears of the smallest possible num- "These speeches are indeed harsh. and how Cronos in his turn took revenge on him.

is it?" "Not in my opinion. what would the models for speech about the gods^^ be." "Yes. but none of the good things is hannful.'*^ and Hephaestus' being cast out by his father when he was about to help out his mother who was being beaten." "That's correct." said. they must not themselves make up tales. the poets must be compelled to make up speeches for them which are close to these. however. But if we are somehow going to persuade them that no citizen ever was angry with another and that to be so is not holy." I said." [ 56 ] ." he said. lyrics. "To say this doesn't seem fitting first 378 b be doing only what the "No. or tragedies. with respect to virtue. A young thing can't judge what is hidden sense and what is not." he either. what would we say?" And I said. must he be said to be "Of course. that is just it.43 ^^^j ^w ^^g battles of the gods Homer^^ made. hence. Perhaps it's for this reason that we must do everything to insure that what they hear first. But Hera's bindings by her son.socrates/adeimantus THE REPUBLIC and the greatest of the gods did.." the god reallv good. you and I aren't poets right now but founders of a city. whether one presents him in epics." "Does that which isn't harmful do hann?" "In no way." I said. founders must not give way. whether they are made with a hidden sense or without a hidden sense. and as they get older. "But if someone should at this point ask us what they are and which tales we mean. "The god must surely always be described such as he is. by Zeus. They are far from needing to have tales told and embroideries woven^i about battles of giants and the many diverse disputes of gods and hei"oes with their families and kin. but what he takes into his opinions at that age has a tendency to become hard to eradicate and unchangeable. must not be accepted in the city. it's just such things that must be told the children right away by old men and women. is must be. "Adeimantus. he b so?" "Then. and. It's appropriate for founders to know the models according to which the poets must tell their tales." "Doubtless something like this. and plot against them and have said that gods battles with make war on them—for it isn't d e 379 a even true—^provided that those who are going to guard the city for us must consider it most shameful^"* to be easily angry with one another. "But." to me c "Above all. be the finest told tales for them to hear." he said." "Well. "it mustn't be gods." "That's reasonable. If what the poets produce goes counter to these models.

"is in my opinion very true." "What you say." "Then." "That which does no evil would not be the cause of any 379 b evil?" "How "Yes.46 nor that Zeus is the dispenser to us e evil alike. "that's entirely so. but the second pure. as Aeschylus says.'*^ Of good and And. and the man to whom Zeus gives a mixture of both. nor must the young be allowed to hear that Themis and Zeus were responsible for strife and contention among to the violation of the oaths if 380 a the gods." he I said." could it be?" "What about "Then "Yes. the other of wretched. [ 57] . as mitted." said. of the bad things." I said. while it is the not responsible for bad things. evil.'*8 we'll not praise him. no one else must be said to be the cause. rather it is cause of the things that are in a good way. and of the good things. but the cause of a few things for human beings and not responsible for most." everything." "Yes. but the man to whom he doesn't give a mixture. some other causes must be sought and not the god. drives earth. since he's good. him over the divine Evil misery. "we mustn't accept Homer's or any other poet's—foolishly making this mistake about the gods and saying that — d Two jars stand on Zeus's threshold Full of dooms—the one of good. "the god.Book 11 / !^8b-380a sockates/adeimantus "Does that which does not harm do any evil?" "Not that. For the things that are good for us are far fewer than those that are bad. At one time he happens on at another good." he said. wouldn't be the cause of c "Then. as the many say.^^ nor again." it's this? Is the good beneficial?" the cause of doing well?" "Then the good the is not the cause of everything. and truces that Pandarus comsomeone says Athena and Zeus were responsible for its happening. either. that God plants the cause in mortals When he wants to destroy a house utterly.

and by all plants by the sun's heat. according to which those who produce speeches will have to do their speaking and those who produce poems will have to do their making: the god is not the cause of all things.' or the 'Trojan Sorrows." he said. "this would be one of the laws and models concerning the gods. if its laws are going older. "and it pleases me. and other affections of the sort. As for the assertion that a god. nor advantageous for us. are neither holy. what about this second one? ferent ideas." d "And it's very satisfactory. it be changed either by itself or something else?" "Yes. or. For these are to be taken as sayings that. If. great exertions must be who is made against anyone's saying these things in his owti city. drink. I can't say. "Now. good. at another time deceiving us and making us think such things about him? Or is he simple and does he least of all things depart from his own idea?" "On the spur of the moment. But the poet mustn't be allowed to say that those who pay the penalty are wretched and that the one who did it was a god."^^ "Now. or anyone's hearing them. to c is it must be allowed. and he must say if b the god's works were just and good. whether he is younger or whether the tale is told in meter or without meter.'^" the 380 a And if someone produces a 'Sorrows of work where these iambics are. it is necessary. if said. if something steps out of its own idea. he must find a speech like the one we're now seeking." "Are things that are in the best condition least altered and moved something else—for example. 381 a aren't the healthiest and strongest is least altered?" "Of course. and that these people profited by being punished." he said. be well observed. the cause of evil to anyone. but of the good." "I give my vote to you in support of this law. or a 'Sorrows of the Pelopidae." I said.scx^haWaohiman^s THEREPUBLIG' Niobe. able treacherously to reveal himself at different times in dif- e one time actually himself changing and passing from his own form into many shapes. a body by food. wouldn't and alter it?" [ 58] . nor in harmony with one another. a soul that an externa] affection least trouble most courageous and most prudent. winds. at Do you suppose the god is a wizard." he said. and labor. "What about this? Isn't it necessary that. however. either he mustn't be allowed to say that they are the deeds of a god. then." "And Yes. he should say that the bad men were wretched because they needed punishment and that in paying the penalty they were benefited by the god. for them pretty much of a god.' or anything else of the sort.

either in tragedies or the other kinds of poetry. "But would he be the one to transform and alter himself?" "It's plain. that's in fine condition. or what's worse and uglier than himself?" "Necessarily into what's worse. "And." "That's entirely necessary. Argos' river^* and let them not lie to us in many other such ways." he said. "let least." "No." I said. each of them is as fair and as good as possible. he For surely is we won't say that the god remains forever simply in his o-wn shape." b admits least transformation by anything so.pook II / 380a-381e sochates/adeimantus "And. like wandering strangers." he said. you best of men. "Then it's impossible. as a priestess Making a collection for the life-giving children of Inachus." "Does he transform himself into what's better and fairer." "That's so. houses. whether by nature or else. and clothing. Take on every sort of shape and visit the cities^^ and let none tell lies about Proteus and Thetis^^ or bring on an altered Hera. in their turn. they shouldn't. do [ 59 ] . "if he's altered at all. the same argiunent surely also holds for all composites. none of the poets tell us d The gods." to the god are in every way in the "Of course." "It seems "Now." "So." that I said. either god or human being. in my opinion at "Then. Adeimantus." least of all have many shapes. willingly make himself worse in any way at all?" "It's impossible. the god and what belongs best condition. those that are well made and in good condition are least altered by time and the other affections." I said." he said. "for a god to want to alter himself." "What you say is very right. if this is so. as it seems. the god would surely." I said. in this way." j 381 a "Hence everything art or both." he said. implements. c wanting in beauty or virtue. does anyone." he said." "Least of all. again. "But. Nor should the mothers. "if he's altered at all. but since. be convinced by these things and frighten the children with tales badly told—that certain gods go around nights looking like all sorts of strangers— lest they slander the gods while at the e same time making the children more cowardly. "while the gods themselves can't be transformed. in your opinion.

"voluntarily wishes to lie about the most sovereign things to what is most sovereign in himself. I mean to lied to the soul about the things that and c unadulterated lie." he said." I said. and." "Quite so. but also by human my opinion." he said. "That surely no one." he 382 a "What?" I said. b "That's because you suppose mean something exalted.' he said. like a drug. what about the one When it and for whom is it also useful. he fears holding a lie there "I still don't more than anything." certainly." "Then there is no lying poet in a god?" "Not in my opinion. For the lie in speeches is a kind of imitation of the affection in the soul." lie "Would he because he's frightened of enemies?" [ 60 ] ." I said." he said. Rather. a phantom of it that comes into being after it. that to lie and to have be unlearned. all sorts 381 e they make of ways." I said. "would be ridiculous." in speeches? "Now. don't we also make very useful in such cases. in the just now speaking about those told bewhere the truth about ancient things lies liken- — — ing the the truth as best we can. either in speech or deed by presenting an illusion?" "I don't know. "Now what I was just talking about would most correctly be called truly a lie—the ignorance in the soul of the man who has been lied to. "that all gods and human beings hate the true lie. and that everyone hates a lie in that place most of all. so as not to deserve hatred? Isn't useful against enemies. "Don't you know.sockates/adeimantus THE REPUBLIC us think they appear in said. "Then in which of these cases is a lie useful to the god? lie to it useful?" "It is Would he lie in making likenesses because he doesn't know ancient things?" "That. in hated not only by gods. Isn't that so?" "Most beings. and to have and to hold a lie there is what everyone would least accept. for so-called friends when from madness or some d cause folly telling of the tales we were we don't know they attempt to do something bad? And." I understand." he said. as a preventive." lie is "So the real "Yes. if that expression can be used?" "What do you mean?" he said. deceiving and bewitching us?" "Perhaps. and not quite an "But are. "Would a god want to lie.

in if be harsh and not prothem for the educaour guardians are going to be god-revering and possibly be. He sang the paean. "That's how it looks to me too when you say it. And he. "Then." he said. nor do they mislead us " 383 a by lies in speech or in deed?" "I do agree. and he doesn't himself change or deceive others by illusions." "and would use them [ 6i ] . who the one who slew my son. although we sending the dream to that Apollo sang at praise much in Homer. good things for her off- spring. there's nothing nothing." "That's cxjmpletely certain.^''' and we'll not let the teachers use young. is said this." I said.^ nor Thetis' saying foretelling praise Zeus' in Aeschylus her wedding.goofc 11 1 381e-383c adeimantus/socrates "Far from it." said. who was at this feast." he said. that the friendship of the gods for would do my fortunes. or the sending of signs either in waking or dreaming. "that this is the second model according to which speeches and poems about gods must be made." he as laws. they are neither wizards who transform themselves." "So." he said. divine insofar as a "I human being can am complete agreement with these models. And I expected Phoebus' divine mouth To be free of lie. speeches." for the sake of which a god would lie?" "Then the demonic^ and the divine are wholly free from lie. c When someone tion of the says such things about gods. "Then the god is altogether simple and true in deed and speech. he who he sang. gladdening my spirit. "Do you then agree." 382 e folly "Because of the or madness of his intimates?" "None of the "There is foolish or the mad is a friend of the gods. b Free from sickness and living long Telling all lives. we'll vide a chorus. we'll not Agamemnon. full with the diviner's art.


"Then." "And what if they are to be courageous? Mustn't they also be told things that will make them fear death least? Or do you believe that anyone who has this terror in him would ever become courageous?" "By Zeus." 386 a "And I." this? he said." he said. then. concerning these tales too. "beginning with this verse: I you suppose anyone who believes Hades' full of terror will be fearless in the face of death battles above defeat and slavery?" Do c To a man without Than rule over all would rather be on the soil. [ 63 ] ." he said. because what they say is neither true nor beneficial for men who are to be fighters. "What about domain exists and is and choose death in "Not at all. lot whose means of life are not the dead who have perished' great. we'll expunge all such things. a serf to another. it seems. "such." "Indeed.BOOK "About gods. we must. from childhood on. are the things that should and should not be heard. it seems we must supervise those who undertake to tell them and ask them not simply to disparage Hades' domain in this way but rather to praise it. I b don't." I said. by men who would honor gods and ancestors and not take lightly their friendship with each other." "Then." I said. '^'suppose our impression is right.

Both soul and phantom.socbates/adeimantus the republic [Lest] his house appear to mortals and immortals. Under the earth. "our fear is right. 'those below. the gibbering soul® Like bats who in a comer of an enchanted cave Fly gibbering when one falls off The cluster hanging from the rock. not that they are not poetic are. will get hotter and softer than they ought. Went and. Styx. in it at all^ He and. further. Wailing his fate." he said. so there is in Hades' house.' and all the other names that are part of this model and which make all those who hear them shiver. the others are fluttering shadows* The and went to Hades. and even the gods hate it^ 386 c and this. the less and sweet for the many to hear. but no mind and this." "Then they must be deleted?" "Yes.^ Perhaps they're good for something else. Oh woe. but the more poetic they should they be heard by boys and men who must be free and accustomed to fearing slavery more than death." "That's entirely certain. as is thought. and Rise holding on to each other. moldy. So they went together gibberingJ "We'll beg strike out these Homer and and all the other poets not to be harsh It's if we similar things. but we fear that our guardians. like smoke. Dreadful. too. as a result of such shivers." ful "And. alone possesses understanding. leaving manliness and the bloom of youth^ soul flew from his limbs 387 a and this." [ 64 ] . d and.' 'the withered dead. also throw out all those terrible and fearnames applied to this domain: Cocytus." "And we must.

"we would be right. nor Priam. at that and to all the bad men. cent "We surely say that a decent^ man will believe that for man—who happens to be his comrade—being dead is not we do say that. we also say that such a man is most of all sufficient unto himself for living well and." "Yes." he said. "Then brother. he wouldn't lament him as though he had suffered something terrible." "Now. Homer made him do. him it is least terrible to be deprived of or money. "Then. or of anything else of the sort. we'll ask Achilles.'^ [ 65 ] .Book in / 386C-388b SOCRATES/ADiaMANTUS "Must the model opposite ing?" "Plainly.!^ nor crying and lamenting as much as. consider whether we'll be right in taking them out or "If." "So. has least need of another. or a "Yes. Calling out to each b man by name." said. and upright." the dea terri- ble thing." I not. we'd be right in taking out the wailings of renowned men and we'd give them to women—and not to the serious ones. his belly." "Moreover. "what went before was necessary. again. so is this. Thus the men we say we are rearing for the guard- — 388 a ianship of the country won't be able to stand doing things similar to those such people do." "Quite so. Homer and the other poets not to make Now On lying on his side. in contrast to others. a near offspring of the gods." he said." "Then." for least a son. or in the ways. least of all. roaming distraught along the Then standing shore of the unharvested sea"^ nor taking black ashes in both hands and pouring them over his head." "Yes. son of a goddess. d he said." e "True. now again now on his side." "Surely not." to these be used in speaking and writ- 387 c "Will too?" we then take out the laments and wailings of famous men." "Then he laments the and bears it most gently when some such misfortune overtakes him. entreating and Rolling around in dung.

as the argument was just indicating to us." "What you say is very true. Menoetius' son. if they do make gods so. Unquenchable laughter rose among the immortal gods.'^ dear Adeimantus. someone makes noteworthy human beings overpowered it mustn't be accepted. Sarpedon. For when a man to lets himself go and laughs mightily. dear is the man I see with my own is eyes being Chased around the town. dearest of men to me. ask them under no condition to make say. it mustn't be. then. and would reproach himself for my e should enter into his head to say or do any such thing." he said. "that "So. and my heart grievedi^ Oh. oh. a hximan being. b it mustn't be accepted. "But that mustn't be." "No. But." "Further. at least Ah woe. We must be persuaded by it until someone persuades us with another them. When they saw Hephaestus hastening breathlessly through the halls. my opinion. is fated To be vanquished by For. far less acceptable. c wretched me. ah me. we'll 388 b And gods yet far who lament and Ah me. far less if they are gods. if it Rather." "If you want to consider it mine." he said.socrates/adeimantus the republic more than this." accompany "That's "If. shame nor endurance." we won't accept from Homer such things about the gods as. with neither and finer one. if our young should seriously hear such things and not laugh scornfully at them as unworthy speeches." [ 66 ] . he would chant many dirges and laments at the slightest sufferings. "At any rate. it's not very likely that any one of them would believe these things to be unworthy of himself. they shouldn't be lovers of laughter either. '^ They mustn't be accepted according to your argument. ^3 they shouldn't dare to make so unlikely an imitation of the greatest of the gods as when he says. and." he said." he said. 389 a by laughter. Patroclus. he also seeks a mighty change his condition. unhappy mother of the best man." is "Indeed.

"if deeds are to fulfill speech." "That is. d Anyone of those who are craftsmen. and eating?" opinion." he said." "Aren't these the most important elements of moderation for the e multitude: being obedient to the rulers. or for a man not to say to the pilot the things that are^^ concerning the ship and the ing. sex. it's plain that anything of the sort must be assigned to doctors while private men*^ must not put their hands to it. sailors. truth must be taken seriously too. these things are fine." "And what about this? [ 67 ] . if he*^ catches anyone else in the city lying. and even greater than. if for anyone at all. and obey my word^^ and what's connected with this. "it is plain. Breathing might the Achaeans went. it's appropriate for the rulers. We'll say that for a private man to lie to such rulers is a fault the same as." it's "They "So I are." he said. at least in my suppose we'll assert that says in fine to say the sort of thing Diomede Homer. afraid of their leaders. lying about how he himself or his fellow sailors are far- "Very true." he said." "Yes. and a lie is really useless to gods and useful to human beings as a form of remedy. for a sick c man or a man in training not to tell the truth about the affections of his body to the doctor or the trainer. to lie for benefit of the city in cases involving enemies or citizens." "And what about this? Won't our youngsters need modera- tion?"2i "Of course.pook III / 388b-389e socrates/adeimantus "Further. and being themselves rulers of the pleasures of drink." "Then." "Yes. "Then. Friend. Whether diviner or doctor of sickness or carpenter of woodj^" he'll punish him for introducing a practice as subversive and destructive of a city as of a ship. at least.^^ and everything else of the sort. keep quiet. For if what we were 389 h just saying was correct. while all the the rest must not put their hands to anything of the sort. In silence.


the republic
Heavy with wine, with eyes
a deer.24

389 e

of a dog and heart of

390 a

And what comes right after, and all the rest private men to rulers that anyone has ever
are they fine things to say?"

of the youthful insolence of said in speech or in poem

"No, they are not fine." don't suppose they're fit for the young to hear, so far moderation is concerned. But, if they provide some other pleasure, no surprise. How does it look to you?"


"As you say," he said. "And what about making the wisest of
opinion, the finest of


say that, in




and meat


tables are full of bread

And And

the wine bearer draws wine from the bowl brings it to pour in the goblets?^^
for a

Do you

think that's


young man

to hear for his self-mastery?




the most pitiful


to die

and find one's fate?^^

Or Zeus, alone and awake, making plans while the other gods and men sleep, easily forgetting all of them because of sexual desire, and so struck when he sees Hera that he isn't even willing to go into the house,
but wants to have intercourse right there on the ground, saying that he wasn't so full of desire even when they first went unto one another, 'unbeknownst to their dear parents?'^'' Nor is Hephaestus' binding of Ares and Aphrodite fit, for similar reasons.''^^ "No, by Zeus," he said, "it doesn't look fit to me." "But," I said, "if there are any speeches and deeds of endurance by famous men in the face of everything, surely they must be seen and
heard, such

Smiting his breast, he reproached his heart with word. Endure, heart; you have endured worse before.^^
"That's entirely certain," he said.

"Of course the men mustn't be allowed
lovers of money."


be receivers of

gifts or

"Not at all." "Nor must it be sung to them that

persuade gods,


persuade venerable


Nor must

Achilles' teacher. Phoenix,

be praised



a sen-





111 1



speech in advising him to come to the aid of the Achaeans prohe gets gifts, but faihng gifts not to desist from wrath. Nor should vided we think it worthy of Achilles himself. Nor shall we agree that he was such a lover of money as to take gifts from Agamemnon, or, again, to give up a corpse when getting paid for it, but otherwise not to be

390 e



391 a


not just, in any case," he said, "to praise such things."

"And, for Homer's sake,"

"I hesitate to say that



holy to say these things against Achilles and to believe

them when

by others;

or, again, to

believe that he said to Apollo,

You've hindered me, Far-Darter, most destructive of

if I



would revenge myself on you,

had the


and that he was disobedient to the river, who was a god, and ready to do battle with it;34 ^nd that he said about the locks consecrated to
another river, Spercheius,


To the hero Patroclus To take with him,-*^
although he was a corpse.


would give



must not be believed




The dragfire

ging of Hector around Patroclus' tomb, the slaughter in the

of the



alive: we'll


our men believe that Achilles the son of a goddess and Peleus, a most moderate man and third from Zeus, Achilles who was reared by the most wise Chiron was so full of confrision as to contain within himself two diseases that are opposite to one another illiberality accompanying love of money, on the one hand, and arrogant disdain for gods and human beings, on the other." "What you say is correct," he said. "Then let's not believe it," I said, "and let us not believe, or let it be said, that Theseus, Poseidon's son, and Perithous, Zeus' son, so eagerly undertook terrible rapes, or that any other child of a god and himself a hero would have dared to do terrible and impious deeds such as the current lies accuse them of Rather we should compel the poets to deny either that such deeds are theirs, or that they are children of gods, but not to say both, nor to attempt to persuade our youngsters that the gods produce evil and that heroes are no better than human beings. For, as we were saying before, these things are neither holy nor true. For, surely, we showed that it's impossible for evil to be produced by

this is truly told.


we'll not









391 e


"Of course."
"And, further, they are harmful to those who hear them. Everyone will be sympathetic with himself when he is bad, persuaded that after all similar things are done and were done even by


close relations of gods.
to Zeus,

Near Is on


whose altar to peak in the ether



In them the blood of demons has not yet faded.^s

3Q2 a

that account such tales


cease, for fear that they


a strong

proclivity for badness in our young."

"Entirely so," he said.

"what form of speeches still remains for which we must and must not be said? It has been stated how gods must be spoken about, and demons and heroes, and Hades' domain." "Most certainly." "Wouldn't it be human beings who remain?"
"So," I said,

are to define the sort of thing that






impossible for us to arrange that at present."



suppose we'll say that what both poets and prose

say concerning the most important things about

human beings


are unjust, and many wretched ones and that doing injustice is profitable if one gets away with it, but justice is someone else's good and one's own loss. We'll forbid them to say such things and order them to sing and to tell tales about the opposites of these things. Or don't you suppose so?" "I know it quite well," he said. "Then, if you were to agree that what J say is correct, wouldn't I say you've agreed about what we've been looking for all along?" "Your supposition is correct," he said, "Won't we come to an agreement that such speeches must be made about human beings when we find out what sort of a thing justice is and how it by nature profits the man who possesses it, whether he seems to be just or not?" "Very true," he said. "So then let that be the end of what has to do with speeches. After this, I suppose, style^^ must be considered, and then we'll have made a

bad—that many happy men





III / 391e-393c



complete consideration of what must be said and



must be

392 c

And Adeimantus

said, "I don't

"But, you just have to,"


understand what you mean." "Perhaps you'll grasp it better


everything that's said by tellers of tales or poets a narrative of what has come to pass, what is, or what is going to be?" "What else could it be?" he said. "Now, don't they accomplish this with a narrative that is either simple or produced by imitation, or by both together?"
Isn't "I


need," he said, "a


clearer understanding of this as well."

be a ridiculous teacher, and an unclear one," I said. are incompetent at speaking, instead of speaking about the whole in general, I'll cut off a part and with it attempt to make plain to you what I want. Tell me, do you know the first things in the Ilia(P^ where the poet tells of Chryses' begging Agamemnon to ransom his daughter, and Agamemnon's harshness, and Chryses' calling down curses from the god on the Achaeans when he failed?"



"So, just like

men who


393 a

"I do."

"Then you know



to these lines.

And he


the Achaeans,

But especially Atreus' two sons, the marshallers of
the host,40

and doesn't attempt to turn our thought elsewhere, as though someone other than he were speaking. But, in what follows, he speaks as though he himself were Chryses and tries as hard as he can to make it seem to us that it's not Homer speaking, but the
the poet himself speaks


an old man. And in this way he made pretty nearly all the rest of the narrative about the events in Ilium as well as about those in Ithaca and the whole Odyssey." "Most certainly," he said. "Isn't it narrative when he gives all the speeches and also what

comes between the speeches?" "Of course." "But, when he gives a speech as though he were someone else, won't we say that he then likens his own style as much as possible to that of the man he has announced as the speaker?"
"We'll say that, surely."


himself to someone else, either in voice or in looks, same as imitating the man he likens himself to?"
"Isn't likening


"Then, in this case,


seems, he and the other poets use imitation


their narrative."






393 c




394 a


"If *he poet nowhere hid himself, his poetic work and narrative as whole would have taken place without imitation. So that you won't say you don't understand again, I'll tell you how this would be. If Homer said that Chryses came bringing ransom for his daughter and as a suppliant to the Achaeans, especially to the kings, and after that didn't speak as though he had become Chryses but still as Homer, you know that it wouldn't be imitation but simple narrative. It would be something like this—I'll speak without meter; I'm not poetic: The priest came and prayed that the gods grant them the capture of Troy and their own safety, and that they accept compensation and free his daughter out of reverence for the god. When he had said this, the others there showed pious respect and consented, but Agamemnon was angry and ordered him to leave immediately and not to come back again or else his scepter and the god's chaplets wouldn't protect him. Before his daughter would be freed, he said she'd grow old with him in Argos. He ordered him to go away and not provoke him if he wished to get home safely. The old man heard and was frightened; he went away in silence. But when he had withdrawn from the camp, he made a great prayer to Apollo, calling upon the god with his special names,'*^ reminding him and asking a return if anything he had ever given had been pleasing, whether it was in the building of temples or the sacrifice of victims. In return for them he called down the god's arrows on the Achaeans in payment for his tears. That, my comrade, I said, "is the way simple narrative without imitation comes to pass." "I understand," he said. "Now," I said, "understand that the opposite of this comes to pass when someone takes out the poet's connections between the speeches and leaves the exchanges. "That I understand, too," he said. "That's the way it is with trage"



most correct," I said. "And now I suppose I can make plain to you what I couldn't before. Of poetry and taletelling, one kind proceeds wholly by imitation — as you say, tragedy and comedy; another, by *^be poet's own report— this, of course, you would find especially in dithyrambs; and still another by both this is found in epic poetry and many other places too, if you understand
"Your supposition


"Now," he

said, "I grasp

what you wanted

to say then."

we asserted that what must be said had already been stated, but that how it must be said had still to
"And remember,
too, that before this

be considered."




Book 111 1 393c-395c



do remember."
this is exactly

394 c

as to




we must come


an agreement


whether we'll let the poets make their narratives for us by imitation; or whether they are to imitate some things and not others, and what sort belongs to each group; or whether they are not to imitate at

"I divine,"


said, "that you're

considering whether we'll admit

tragedy and


into the city or not.



see, I

"and perhaps something still more than this. myself really don't know yet, but wherever the argument,

like a

wind, tends, thither must



"What you say is fine," he said. "Now, Adeimantus, reflect on whether our guardians ought to be that each imitators or not. Or does this follow from what went before


one would do a fine job in one activity, but not in many, and if he should try to put his hand to many, he would surely fail of attaining


in all?

"Of course


what would happen."

"Doesn't the same argument also hold for imitation





able to imitate


things as well as one?"

"No, he isn't." "Then, he'll hardly pursue any of the noteworthy



395 a

the same time imitating


things and being a skilled imitator.


For even in two kinds of imitation that seem close to one another, like comedy and tragedy, the same men aren't capable of producing good imitations in both at the same time. Weren't you just calling these

two imitations? "I was, and what you say is true. The same men aren't capable of doing both." "Nor are they able to be rhapsodes and actors at the same time."

"Nor are the same
tragic poets.


you know, even able


do both comic b



these are imitations, aren't they?"

"Yes, they are imitations.

tion of

nature, Adeimantus, looks to
it is



be minted


smaller coins than this, so that

unable either to make a fine imita-


things or to

do the things themselves of which the

tions are in fact only likenesses."

"Very true," he



first argument that our guardmust give up all other crafts and very precisely be craftsmen of the city's freedom and practice nothing other than what tends to



are to preserve the





395 c



mustn't do or imitate anything else.



they do

imitate, they

must imitate what's appropriate


them from childhood;

men who

are courageous, moderate, holy, free, and everything of the sort; and what is slavish, or anything else shameftil, they must neither


they won't get a taste for the being from its imitation. Or haven't you observed that imitations, if they are practiced continually from youth onwards, become established as habits and nature, in body and sounds and in thought?"

do nor be clever

at imitating, so that

"Quite so," he



"So then," I said, "we won't allow those whom we claim we care for and who must themselves become good men to imitate women since they are men either a young woman or an older one, or one who's abusing her husband, or one who's striving with gods and boasting because she supposes herself to be happy, or one who's caught

in the grip of misfortune,

mourning and







needing one who's sick or

in love or in labor.

"That's entirely certain,



"Nor must they


any event imitate slaves,



men, who

are doing the slavish things."

posite of

396 a

men who are cowards and doing the opwhat we just now said, insulting and making fun of one another, and using shameful language, drunk or sober, or committing the other faults that such men commit against themselves and others in speeches and deeds. Nor do I suppose they should be accustomed to
likening themselves to

"No, they mustn't." "Nor, as it seems, bad



speeches or in deeds. For, although

they must

know both mad and


men and women,

they must

neither do nor imitate anything of theirs."


"Very true," he said. "And what about this," I said. "Should they imitate smiths at work, or men exercising any other craft, or men rowing triremes or calling time to those who do, or anything that has to do with these


could that be," he said, "since they won't even be permitted

to pay attention to any of these things?" "And what about this? Horses neighing, bulls lowing, the roaring of rivers, the crashing of the sea, thunder, and everything of the sort will they imitate them?" "But, he said, "they're forbidden to be mad or to liken them-


selves to the

if I


understand what you mean, I said, "there is a certain form of style and narrative in which the real gentleman^^ narrates whenever he must say something, and, again, another form, unlike this



Book III 1 395c-397c


one, in the

man who


other, always keeps


by nature and rearing the opposite of which he narrates."



"Which are they?" he

rative to

opinion," I said, "when the sensible man comes in his narsome speech or deed of a good man, he will be willing to report it as though he himself were that man and won't be ashamed of such an imitation. He will imitate the good man most when he is acting steadily and prudently; less, and less willingly, when he's unsteadied by diseases, loves,^^ drink, or some other misfortune. But when he meets with someone unworthy of himself, he won't be willing seriously to represent himself as an inferior, unless, of course, it's brief, when the


man does something
himself according
In his
"It's likely,"

good; rather, he'll be ashamed, both because he's

unpracticed at imitating such

men and

because he can't stand forming



himself into, the models of worse men.

mind he despises this, unless it's done in play." he said. "Then, won't he use a narration like the one we described a little while ago concerning Homer's verses, and won't his style participate in both imitation and the other kind of narrative, but there'll be a little bit
of imitation in a great deal of speech?

Or am


talking nonsense?"


said, "is just


way the model

of such a speaker must


"Now, then," I said, "as for the man who's not of this sort, the more common he is, the more he'll narrate everything and think nothing unworthy of himself; hence he'll undertake seriously to imitate in the presence of many everything we were just mentioning thunder, the noises of viinds, hailstorms, axles and pulleys, the voices of trumpets, flutes, and all the instruments, and even the sound of dogs, sheep, and birds. And this man's whole style will be based on imitation of voice and looks, or else include only a bit of narrative." "That," he said, "is also the way it must be." "Well, then," I said, "these are the two forms of style I meant." "So they are," he said. "Then, of the two, one involves only small changes, and, if someone assigns the appropriate harmonic mode and rhythm^^ to the




turns out that the

man who

speaks correctly speaks mostly in

the same style and in one mode, for the changes are small, and likewise
in a similar


way it is, he said. "And what about the form of the other? Doesn't it need the opif it's going to be spoken in its posites all modes and all rhythms
"That's exactly the

own way, because





species of changes?

"Yes, indeed, that's very









the republic

397 c


the poets and the

men who

say anything



one of

these patterns of style or the other, or
"Necessarily," he said.

make some mixture




then?" I said. "Shall we admit all of them into the city, or one of the unmixed, or the one who is mixed?" "If my side wins," he said, "it will be the unmixed imitator of the



we do



"However, Adeimantus, the man who is mixed is pleasing; and by far the most pleasing to boys and their teachers, and to the great mob too, is the man opposed to the one you choose." "Yes," he said, "he is the most pleasing." "But," I said, "perhaps you would say he doesn't harmonize with our regime because there's no double man among us, nor a manifold one, since each man does one thing." "No, he doesn't harmonize."

for this reason that


only in such a city that we'll find

the shoemaker a shoemaker, and not a pilot along with his shoemaking,

398 a


and the farmer a farmer, and not a judge along with his farming, and the skilled warrior a skilled warrior, and not a moneymaker along with his warmaking, and so on with them all?" "True," he said. "Now, as it seems, if a man who is able by wisdom to become every sort of thing and to imitate all things should come to our city, wishing to make a display of himself and his poems, we would fall on our knees before him as a man sacred, wonderful, and pleasing; but we would say that there is no such man among us in the city, nor is it lawful^ for such a man to be bom there. We would send him to another city, with myrrh poured over his head and crowned with wool, while we ourselves would use a more austere and less pleasing poet and teller of tales for the sake of benefit, one who would imitate the style of the decent man and would say what he says in those models that we set down as laws at the beginning, when we undertook to educate the soldiers."

"Indeed that


what we would do," he

said, "if


were up

to us."



friend," I said, "it's likely


are completely finished

with that part of music that concerns speeches and

What must be

and how

must be


have been stated."

my opinion




"After that," I said, "doesn't

what concerns the manner of song

and melody remain?"








"Couldn't everyone by


discover what

we have

to say


398 c

how they must be


we're going to remain in accord with what has

been said?" And Glaucon laughed out and said, "I run the risk of not being included in everyone. At least I'm not at present capable of suggesting what sort of things we must say. However, I've a suspicion." "At all events," I said, "you are, in the first place, surely capable speech, harmonic of saying that melody is composed of three things and rhythm." mode, "Yes," he said, "that I can do." "What's speech in it surely doesn't differ from the speech that isn't sung insofar as it must be spoken according to the same models we prescribed a while ago and in the same way." "True," he said. "And, further, the harmonic mode and the rhythm must follow


the speech."

"Of course."
"No, there


said there is

no further need of wailing and lainen-

tations in speeches."


are the wailing

modes? Tell me,

for you're musical."


"The mixed Lydian," he
similar ones."

"and the

Lydian and some

"Aren't they to be excluded?"


"They're useless even for

women who

are to be decent, let alone for



drunkenness, softness, and idleness are most un-

for guardians.

"Of course." "What modes are "There are some
are called 'slack.'"



and suitable for symposia?"^^ he said, "and some Lydian,


399 a

"Could you, my friend, use them for war-making men?" "Not at all," he said. "So, you've probably got the Dorian and the

"I don't know the modes," I said. "Just leave that mode which would appropriately imitate the sounds and accents of a man who is courageous in warlike deeds and every violent work, and who in failure



going to face wounds or death or falling into

some other


disaster, in the face of all these things stands


firmly and patiently

against chance.

forms a

And, again, leave another mode for a man who perpeaceful deed, one that is not violent but voluntary, either per-




" said." "At least so our argument indicates. "unawares we've again purged the luxurious." "But. I can't say. which will produce the finest imitation of the sounds of unfortunate and fortunate.socrates/glaucon the republic 399 b suading someone of something and making a request—whether a god by prayer or a human being by instruction and exhortation—or. and aren't the panharmonic instruments themselves imitations of it?" "Plainly. "And what about this? Will you admit flutemakers and flutists into the city? Or. but in c These two modes—a violent one and a voluntary one. we'll compel the foot and the tune to follow the speech of such a man." "It doesn't look like it to me." that a while ago I said." he said. but we'll see which are the rhythms of an orderly and courageous life. 400 a "Come." he said." "It doesn't look like we will. and all the instruments that are many-stringed and play many modes. by Zeus. "there'll for our songs e "It's nothing new we're doing." he said." I said." he said." we said was "That's a sign of our moderation." he said. then." he said. "There are three forms out of [ 78 ] . "Then. "in choosing Apollo and Apollo's instruments ahead of Marsyas and his instru- ments. on the contrary. by the dog. "And. moderate and courageous men—leave these. by Zeus. holding himself in check for someone else who makes a request or instructs him or persuades him to change. "and let's purge the rest. Now." "You're asking me to leave none other than those I was just speaking of. all ing intelligently."'*'' "No. my friend. there'd be a sort of pipe for the herdsmen. harps. for the country. following on harmonic modes would be our rule about rhythms: we mustn't seek subtle ones nor all sorts of feet. and when we have seen them." he said. were." I said. "The lyre and the cither are left you as useful for the city. "Then we'll not support the craftsmen who make lutes. not behaving arrogantly." I said." I monic instruments d be no need of many-toned or panharand melodies. further. and as a result actthese things acting moderately and in measure and being content with the consequences." "We don't look to me as though we city "And. just as with the harmonic modes. isn't the flute the most many-stringed of all. rather than the speech following the foot and the tune. Whatever these rhythms might be is your job to tell.

and good rhythm accompany good disposition. good grace. "they must accompany speech. naming a certain enoplion foot. can't say/'^s "We'll consult with appropriate for illiberality vice. he named one iambic and another trochaic and attached longs and shorts to them." he said. and is. which is a composite." "Further. And gracelessness. as I said. weaving is full of them. good speech." "Surely painting is full of them. In all of them there is inhargrace or gracelessness. but he arranged it and presented it so that it's equal up and down. as rhythm and harmonic mode and not speech them. Or do you think so?"^^ "Not I. by Zeus. good harmony. clumsiness." "But you are able to determine that grace and gracelessness^^ accompany rhythm and lack of it?" c "Of course.' but that understanding truly trained to a good and fair disposition. the one likening it's d a fine style." "And the "Yes. and. lack of it. Damon^^ and insolence "about which feet are rest of b or madness and the and which rhythms must be left for their opposites. and also all the crafts that produce the other furnishings.^^ not the folly that we endearingly call 'good disposition. the other to its opposite. But life. provided. But. rhythm and lack of itself to it follow the style. but not clearly." "That's entirely certain. and so are embroidery. "Mustn't the young pursue them everywhere if they are to do their own work?" "Indeed they must be pursued." "But. let these things be turned over to Damon." sort of I said. "Don't they follow the disposition of the soul?" "Of course. I think I heard him. of course. that we were just saying. housebuilding. To separate them out^" is no theme for a short argument. just as there are four for I've the modes are compounded—this sounds from which observed and could tell." he said. I think. is the nature of bodies and the rest of what grows. I 400 a as to which sort are imitations of which too. and a dactyl and an heroic—I don't know how. With some of these I think he blamed and praised the tempo of the foot no less than the rhythms themselves. the same with har- mony and follow speech. e 401 a [ 79 ] ." rest follow the style?" "Hence. as are all crafts of this sort. furthermore. so." "What about the manner of the style and the speech?" I said. passing into a short and a long.Book III / 399b-401a glaucon/socrates which the all feet are woven. or it was the two together—I can't say.

their awareness. and unawares put together some one big bad thing in their soul? Mustn't we. supervise only the poets and compel them to impress the image of the good disposition on their poems or not to make them among us? Or must we also supervise the other craftsmen and prevent them from impressing this bad disposition. at " least. the opposite moderate and — good disposition. "isn't this by far the finest rearing. "just as we were competent at reading only when the few letters there are didn't escape us in any of the combinations in which they turn up. and beginning in childhood. so that our guardians won't be reared on images of vice. and they make a man graceful he is cor- e 402 a Furthermore. and imitations of." I said. the opposite. And. as were on bad grass. and." why the rearing in music all is most sovereign? Because rhythm and harmony most of insinuate themlay hold of it if selves into the inmost part of the soul in and most vigorously bringing grace with them. with the fair as well as accord?" will. And when reasonable speech comes. Glaucon. and we didn't despise them as not needing to be \ 80 ." he said. and graceless one. "they'd have "So. He would blame and hate the ugly in the right way while he's still young." I said. before he's able to grasp reasonable speech. it is sovereign because the man properly reared on rhythm and harmony would have the sharpest sense for what's been left out and what isn't a fine product of craft or what isn't a fine product of nature. b "Then. b "Must we." "Entirely so. "In my opinion. either on images of animals or on houses or on anything else that their craft produces? And the incapable craftsman we c mustn't permit to practice his craft among it us. while their opposites are akin to. dwelling as it were in a healthy place. will be benefited by everything. if not. taking pleasure in them and receiving them into his soul. like a breeze bringing it d health from good places." he said. illiberal. the man who's reared in this way would take most delight in it. a licentious. "it's for such reasons that there's rearing in music. so that the young. recognizing it on account of its being akin?" rectly reared. due to his having the right kind of dislikes.socrates/glaucon the republic 401 a moniousness. he would praise the fine things. look for those craftsmen whose good natural endowments make them able to track down the nature of what is fine and graceful. and from that place something of the fine works will strike their vision or their hearing. rather." he said. he would be reared on them and become a gentleman. every day cropping and grazing on a great deal little by little from many places. are akin to bad speech and bad disposition. without speech lead them to likeness and friendship "In this way. then.

"Then. "if the fine dispositions that are in the soul and d them in the form should ever coincide in anyone. their opposites. than pain? puts men out of their minds no less "But. he wouldn't. such a boy and I conme this: does excessive pleasure have anything "since it common with moderation?" "How could it." "Can you tell of a greater or keener pleasure than the one connected with sex?" "I can't." [ 81 ] ." I said. we wouldn't recognize them before knew the things themselves. since do so — we wouldn't be skilled readers before we could True. with the rest of virtue?" "Nothing at all. 'nor a madder one either. but believing that they all belong to the same art and liberality." he said. musical to ^before name of the gods. e "I understand. is it as I say: we'll never be c magnificence. courage. but both belong to the same art and "Now isn't in discipline?" "That's entirely certain." he said. But in "You have. in the —either ourselves or those whom we say we must educate be guardians— we recognize the forms of moderation. tell cede your point. again. he wouldn't love him. and all their kin. discipline?" "Quite necessarily." I said. he'd be patient and would willingly take dehght in him.Book III 1 401a-403a socrates/glaucon noticed in either small writing or large. despising them neither in little nor big things." "Now "It's the fairest is the most lovable?" "Of course." the musical if beings. "So. then. both themselves and their images. we it also true that if images of writings should appear water or in mirrors. however." 403 a he said." "But with insolence and licentiousness? "Most of all." he said. "at least if there were some defect in the If. and. and notice that they are in whatever they are in. while there were one man who would most of all love such human who lacked harmony. everywhere they turn up. or had. with both partaking of the same model. somewhere. there were some bodily defect. wouldn't that be the fairest sight for him who is able to see?" those that agree and accord with "By far." "No. but were eager to make them 402 b out everywhere." soul.

" "I am in accord. And it would. be something like this.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLI QhM to love in a 403 a "Is the naturally right kind of love moderate and [hej^i musical way what's orderly and said." he said. and touch his boy as though he he persuades him. the youths must be trained in gymnastic." "Now. what about food? For the men are champions in the greatest contest. Surely a guardian." he said. fine?" "Quite so. his intercourse with the one for whom he cares will be such that their relationship will never be reputed to go further than this. but." he said.thf hood throughout life. I believe. as it seems. ^i "Now we said that they more permissible for anyone. d thii "Now. wo e and you consider it too." "It's ridiculous. as for the rest. "At least it's ended where it ought to end. to be drunk ^ he said." he b "Nothing that's mad or akin to licentiousness must approach the right kind of love? "No. "if the guardian needs a guardian." stead "Then this pleasure mustn't approach love. while we." he said. it mustn't. he'll be subject to blame as unmusical and inexperienced in fair things. "So then. but the opposite: a good an soul by its own virtue makes the body as good as it can be. and lover and boysleen who love and are loved in the right way mustn't be partner to it?" Ufg "By Zeus. aren't they?" 82 ] . "If we gave adequate care to the intellect and turned over to it the it concern for the precise details about the body. you'll set dovsTi a law in the city that's being bata ' i founded: that a lover were a son. "this pleasure certainly mustn't approach love. c be with. "Does it look to you too as though our argument concerning music has reached an end? I said. would we be doing a^ the right thing?" "Most it's " certainly. Socrates. so as not to talk too much. other than and not to know where on earth he is. How does it look to you?" ev "It looks that way to me too." "In this too they must then receive a precise training from child. " must keep away from drunkenness. after music. showed the way only to the models. If not. Surely musical matters should end in love matters that concern kiss. if desi " of ^ the fair." hei "Of course." "Just so. no. It doesn't look to me as though it's a sound evi body that by its virtue makes the soul good. may shaf wati for j for fair purposes.

"one could learn things very much of sort." also "Then you men who are going to have blame a Corinthian girl's being the mistress of good bodies." this "How would it be?" "From Homer too." I said. life. for." joys of Attic cakes?" "That's entirely certain." "But. he doesn't feast the sea at c would be around.Book III / 403a-404d glaucon/socrates "Yes." "It looks like it to many changes and winds without being too highly tuned b me. for steadiness in health." "My "No. at the feasts of the them on fish—and that." "Then would the habit of the ordinary them?" "Perhaps. Or don't you see that they they depart a bit from their fixed way of ill?" these athletes get very critically "I do see that. since they must be sleepless like hounds. For you know that. and if and not a very concerned. friend. "and they are right in knowing it and keeping away. "for "There's need then. which especially easy for soldiers to it's heroes. and in their campaigns undergo water. see and hear as sharply as possible." think not. "this is a sort of sleepy habit is steady one so far as health sleep their life away. Don't even the other athletes know that if a body is going to be in good shape it must keep away from everything of the sort?" "Yes." I athletes be proper for 403 e 404 a said. everywhere "Quite easier to come by the use of fire alone than to carry pots so. you don't seem to recommend a Syracusan table and d Sicilian refinement at cooking. the sun's heat." "And the reputed "Necessarily. if I you think this is right. especially in matters "How do you mean?" "A simple and decent of war. although they are by the Hellespont—nor on boiled meats but only roasted." a subtler exercise for these comof batants in war. food. during the campaign. so to speak." a kin of the simple "Would the best gymnastic be describing a little music we were while ago?" g)Tnnastic." I said." [ 83 ] . I believe." he said." "Nor does Homer. ever make mention of sweets." come by. of course.

as his sons didn't I pose. and aren't the arts of the law court and medicine full of pride when even many free men take them very licentiousness seriously?" "When "How could it turn out differently?" "Will you be able to produce a greater sign of a bad and base education in a city than its needing eminent doctors and judges not only for the common folk and the manual artisans but also for those who b pretend to have been reared in a free fashion? Or doesn't it seem base." 405 a and illness multiply in a city. from inexperience in fair thmgs." he said. "but this case "And. "basest of all. but." "Of course. simplicity in music produced modera- tion in souls. aren't many courts and hospitals opened. does birth to illness here? it give And just as he said. and a great sign of lack of education. but as a result of idleness and a way of life such as we described. not because one has met with wounds or some of the seasonal maladies." c is this really baser. and it's 1 infer this from the fact that at Troy [ 84 ] . because he is clever at doing injustice and competent at practicing every dodge. d "Quite "Such. compelling the subtle Asclepiads^'* to give names like 'flatulences' and 'catarrhs' to diseases." I said. full of humors and winds like a marsh. does it in gymnastic produce health in bodies?" "That's very true. "than when someone not only wastes most of his life in courtrooms defending and accusing. ignorant of how much finer and better it is to arrange his life so as to have no need of a dozing "In your opinion. is also persuaded to pride himself on this very thing. "as didn't exist in the time of Asclepius. to be compelled— because of a shortage at home—to use a justice imported from others who are thus masters and umpires?" "Certainly. 406 a blame the woman who gave the wounded Eurypylus Pramneian wine to drink with a great deal of barley and grated cheese sprinkled on it.scxieiatjes/glaucon the republic 404 d e way of life as a whole to meloand songs written in the panharmonic mode and with all rhythms we would make a correct likeness." he said." "In likening such food and such a dies "Just as refinement there gave birth to licentiousness." e so." he said. and all this for the sake of little and worthless things. escaping through every loophole by writhing and twisting and thereby not paying the penalty. doesn't that seem base?" "No. judge?" is even baser than the other one." I said." "needing medicine. "How truly new and strange are these names sup- for diseases." I said. I suppose.

and spent his whole life treating it with no leisure for anything else. it isn't. mightily distressed if he departed a bit from his accustomed regimen. putting bandages around his head and what goes with them." he said. He was a gymnastic master and became sickly." "Well. he dies and is rid of his troubles." I said. he soon says that he has no leisure to be sick nor is a life thus spent—paying attention to a disease while neglecting the work at hand—of any profit. And." "No. he says goodbye to such a doctor and returns to his accustomed regimen. It's laughable that we recognize this for the craftsmen. so 'he mixed gymnastic with medicine. it would be of no profit to go on living?" "Plainly. "for one who didn't know that it wasn't from ignorance or inexperience in this form of medicine that Asclepius didn't reveal it to his offspring. and no one has the leisure to be sick throughout life and treat himself. "He drew out his death." "How's that?" he said." he said. If someone prescribes a lengthy regimen for him." "For this kind of man at least." "In what way?" he said." "Is it." I said. [ 85 ] . or submit to burning or cutting and be rid of it. "that was a fine prize^^ he won for his art." I said. So. he wasn't able to cure it. thanks to his wisdom. "the drink certainly strange for one in that condition. "A carpenter. and he first and foremost worried himself to death. "because he had a definite job. "if only you recognize that this current art of medicine which is an education in disease was not used by the Asclepiads of former times. he lives minding his own business. with that. "Attending the mortal disease."^^ is 406 "But for of that. then many others afterwards. "when he's sick. if his body is inadequate to bearing up under it. and if he couldn't do it. I suppose." I said. thinks fit to drink some medicine from the doctor and vomit up his disease or have it purged out from below. regaining his health. he came to an old age. finding it hard to die. until Herodicus came on the scene.Book in / 404d-407a socrates/glauco just these that are Patroclus who was all thought to be inflammatory. while for the rich and reputed happy we don't. nor did they criticize heaHng. "it's thought proper to use medicine in this way." "Such as is fitting." 407 1 he said." he said." I said. but rather because he knew that for all men obedient to good laws a certain job has been assigned to each in the city at which he is compelled to work. or so they say.

" "You speak. thought." "Yes." "Quite likely. and in sedentary offices in the city. is that it also of learning." "But most important of c all. he didn't think he should care for the man who's not able to live in his established round. this care of the body is in every way a hindrance. They sucked out the blood and sprinkled gentle drugs on it^^ [ 86 ] . by Zeus. "this excessive care of the over and above gymnastic." my "Let's not fight with ourselves as to b sickness "suppose he must also do so before that. And it's troublesome in the management of a household." said. hinders it just about more than anything. "But let's instruct whether the rich man must practice it and whether life is part." he said. "And don't you see that his sons. surely. as we claim." "That." him about that. has no such job at hand that makes his life unlivable if he's compelled to keep away from it. but doesn't hinder Phocylides' exhortation." "At least there's not said to be. "Then won't we say that Asclepius. for virtue. So that wherever virtue is practiced and made to undergo scrutiny in this way. with drugs and cutting to drive out the diseases. on a campaign. or meditation by oneself hard. pouring in a bit at another—to make a lengthy human being and have him produce offspring likely to and bad life for a be such as he. already has a livelihood he must practice "I. But with bodies diseased through and through." he said. he made no attempt by regimens— drawing off a bit at one time. knew this and revealed." he "Plainly. I said. an art of medicine for those whose bodies are by nature and regimen in a healthy condition but have some distinct and definite disease in them? His medicine is for these men and this condition. he prescribed their customary regimen so as not to harm the city's affairs. on the grounds that he's of no profit to himself or to e the city. "is because I Phocylides^'^ says that you don't listen to how when someone said."^^ 408 a like that.socrates/glaucon the republic 407 a "While the rich man." he unlivable for the one is who doesn't practice it. or whether care of a hindrance in paying attention to carpentry and the other body. top. if it's arts. it is makes any kind always on the lookout for tensions and spinning in the head and holds philosophy to blame. "of a statesmanlike Asclepius." said. because he was both showed themselves to be good men in the war at Troy and made use of the art of medicine in the way I say? Or don't you re- member that as well from the wound Pandarus inflicted on Menelaus. It always makes one suppose he's sick and never cease to take pains about ." I said.his body.

similarly. that the art shouldn't them. of d consider to be such?" "I would." I said. they also say he was persuaded by gold to cure a rich man who was as good as dead and it's for this that he was struck with a thunderbolt. Rather." "Yes indeed. and the best judges." he said. "A judge. and it's not possible for a soul to have been. those sick ones this. even b either to themselves or others. as for those with a naturally sickly and licentious body." I appropriate. beginning in childhood. "Doctors. 409 a have been reared and been familiar with souls from youth on. and bad it's my friend." "How's that?" he said. "of quite subtle sons of Asclepius. For I don't suppose they care for a body with a body— in that case it wouldn't be possible for the bodies themselves ever to be. "And yet it's in just this that the tragic poets as well as Pindar^** don't obey us. he wasn't a god's son." he "It's said. I mean good ones. in accord with what was said before. bad and to care for "Well. on the other hand." if be applied to they were richer "You speak. would be those who have been familiar with all sorts of natures. we'll say he wasn't basely greedy." "Correct. "But what do you say about Socrates? Won't course. "However you asked about dissimilar matsame speech. beUeving the drugs to be sufficient 408 a wounds were healthy and orderly in they should happen to take a drink mixed with barley. "But do you know whom I we who have handled need to get good doctors in the city? And. not possible for it to [ 87 ] . But we." c "Quite right in that." I said.BooJi III / 407a-409a socrates/glaucon and that after this they didn't prescribe what he must drink or eat any more than with Eurypylus. they should be familiar with very many and very bad bodies and should themselves suffer all diseases and not be quite healthy by nature. the most healthy men and the most would be the best. Although they claim Asclepius was the son of Apollo. in addition to learning the art. and wine right away? And." he said. rather if he was a god's son. and that they mustn't be treated—not even than Midas. I'll try. they thought that living is of no profit to cure their men who before their if regimen." he said." I said. and if he was basely greedy. and to be. and to have gone through the list of all unjust deeds and to have committed them itself so as to be sharp at inferring from itself the unjust deeds of others like diseases in the body. "would prove cleverest if. bad—but for a body with a soul." said. rules a soul with a soul. or to have been. ters in the e anything well. if you'd tell me. cheese. won't believe both things from them.

and the ones whose souls have bad natures and are it curable. That clever and suspicious man." I said." "That is. it's going to make healthy judgments about what is just." [ 88 ] ." he said. a late learner of what injustice is." "Will you set down a law in the city providing as well for an art of medicine such as we described along with such an art of judging. he has become thoroughly aware of how it is naturally bad. having studied it as something alien in alien souls. too. looks clever. distrustful out of season. while as for those who haven't. "Yes." "Then your young.socrates/glaucon the republic 409 a when h must have been inexperienced and untainted by bad dispositions it was young. in my opinion." "Well. This man. as a fine and good soul. indeed. because he is on his guard. over a long time. —taking his bearings d looks stupid. he now his likes company with himself. he seems to be rather more wise than unlearned. and ignorant of a healthy because he does not possess a pattern for such a man. he must not have become aware of it as kindred. "which is what you asked. soul." I said. which will care for those of your citizens who have good natures in body and "Then it's not in such a man that the good looked for but in the former. not his own personal experience. both to himself and to others. The man who has a good soul is good. e 410 a and wise judge must be "For badness would never know virtue and itself. is why. if." he said." "And I. they'll let die the ones whose bodin- ies are such." I said. becomes wise. having made use of it knowledge. "will plainly beware of falling into need of the judge's art." "And good." "That. because they have in themselves no patterns of affections similar to those of bad men. This is exactly why decent men when they are young." I said. "the good judge must not be young but old." he said. "share your opinion. since they use that simple music which we claimed engenders moderation. while virtue in an educated nature will in time gain a knowledge of both itself and badness simultaneously. look as though they were innocents^^ and easily deceived by unjust men. dwelling in his own soul." he said. and not the bad one. "that's the way looked best for those who un- dergo it and for the city. "a judge who's like that seems to be most noble. you see. "quite certainly true. they themselves will kill?" "Well.'' he said. "this is the very thing that happens to them." disposition. when he keeps by the patterns within But when he has contact with good men who are older. But since he meets bad men more often than good ones. the one who has himself done inal many unjust things and supposes he's a master crimand wise. Rather.

"Then." he said. who do the opposite?" "What are you talking about?" he said. if he wishes. while those who make use of music become in their turn softer than is fine for them. or." again." is "That my opinion." "And we do say natures." "How's that?" "Don't you notice." "And. likely. but.Book III / 409a-411a socrates/glaucon "Of course. that the latter should care for the body and the former for the in c soul?" "For what "It's else. "softness and tameness on the other." "Yes. while if it is finely reared. would be likely to be- come cruel and harsh." he said. they must. "that then?" he said. that of those I said. which. so that he will require no art of medicine except in case of necessity?" "That's 410 a b my opinion. and if it is relaxed somewhat more. "that those who make use of unmixed gymnastic turn out more savage than they ought. Glaucon. he'll undergo these very exercises and labors looking less to strength than to the spirited part of his nature and for the purpose of arousing it. surely." I said." I said. they established both chiefly for the soul." "I do notice. "the savage stems from the spirited part of their nature. this? Wouldn't the philosophic nature have the tame. catch it. would it be softer than it ought to be. if raised to a higher pitch than it ought to have. unlike the other kinds of contestants who treat diets and labors as means to force." "And the soul of the man thus harmonized is moderate and courageous?" ^-^ ^ [ 89 ] . "Won't the musical man hunt for a gymnastic by following these same tracks. and. would be courageous." that the guardians must have both of these two "Then mustn't they be harmonized with one another?" "Of course. c "Savageness and hardness on the one hand." I said." he said. "the turn of mind of those who main- tain a lifelong familiarity with gymnastic but don't touch music. it would be tame and orderly?" "And what about "That's so. "did those who established an education music and gymnastic do so for other reasons than the one supposed by some." "Quite right. if rightly trained." "Moreover." he said." I said.

whatever spiritedness he had. Thus these men have become quicktempered and irritable from having been spirited." "Now what about the man who labors a great deal at gymnastic and feasts himself really well but never touches music and philosophy? At first. with his body in good condition. ':12 He a harmonized with one another by being tuned tension and relaxation." he said. e I suppose. he softened like iron and made useful from having been useless and hard. as the next step." he said. as it were into a funnel—using those sweet. isn't he filled with high thought and spirit. "that's the way it is." "But what about when he does nothing else and never communes with a Muse? Even if there was some love of learning in his soul. But when he keeps at it without letting up and charms his spirit. "if from the start he got a spiritless soul from nature. the spirit is weakened and made temperamental." did so in order that they might be to the proper degree of [ 90 ] .GLAUCON/sOCaftATES THE REPUBLIC that of the inharmonious 411a "Certainly. soft. wailing harmonies we were just speaking of—and spends his whole life humming and exulting in song. quickly inflamed by little things and quickly extinguished. He no and he lives ignorantly and awkwardly without rhythm or grace. doesn't it become weak. "Now for one. the sinews from his soul and b makes it 'a feeble warrior. such a man becomes a misologist^^ and un- longer makes any use of persuasion by means of speech but goes about everything with force and savageness." I said. "And." "Exactly. musical. already begins to melt and liquefy his spirit." he said. he. and they are filled with discontent. at first." "Quite so." would assert that some god gave two arts to human beings for these two things. but rather for these two. because it never tastes of any kind of learning or investigation nor partakes in speech or the rest of music. and doesn't he become braver than himself?" "Very much. deaf. and blind because it isn't awakened or trained and its perceptions aren't purified?" d "That's so. as it seems—music and gymnastic for the spirited and the philosophic—not for soul and body. But if it's spirited. except inciI.' "^^ c "Most certainly." "And man is cowardly and crude?" "Of course. dentally. until he dissolves it completely and cuts out. "Then. he accomplishes this quickly. when a man gives himself to music and lets the flute play and pour into his soul through his ears. as it were." "Then. like a wild beast.

" surely love something most when he believed same things are advantageous to it and to himself." since they skillful be the most must be the best of the guardians." d for that "A man would care most "Necessarily. Socrates. aren't they the most skillful at fann- "Now "Yes. mustn't they at guarding the city?" "Mustn't they." "Perhaps." he said." he said. be prudent in such matters as well as powerful. "After that. and if it didn't. to begin with.pook III / 411a^412d glaucon/socrates it does seem so. mustn't they care for the city?" "That's so. gymnastic contests. it is. then." I said." he said. that they must follow these models." "That's fitting." best of the farmers. and when he supposed that if it did well. isn't "Yes. would be the models of education and rearing. upon our consideration. and." which he happened to love." "These. far more so than of the man who tunes the strings to One another." he said. we will need him more than anything." "And that they must be the best among them?" "That's plain. and horseraces? It's pretty plain. "Then we must select from the other guardians the sort of men who. "Won't we also always need some such man as overseer in the city. look as if "And wouldn't he that the [ 91 ] . "they aren't. 412 a b cover. chases. Why should one go through the dances of such men and the hunts. too." "That the rulers must be older and the ruled younger it?" plain. "Then the man who makes the finest mixture of gymnastic with music and brings them to his soul in the most proper measure is the one of whom we would most correctly say that he is the most perfectly musical and well harmonized." "All right. it what would it determine? ruled?" Isn't who among these men will rule be that we must and who be c is "Of course. if the regime is going to be saved?" "Indeed." "And the ing?" "Yes. he too himself would do well along with it. from everything in their lives. surely. and they are no longer difficult to dis- "Yes. neither would he?" "That's so. moreover. Glaucon.

and the one who's not must be rejected." he said." "What?" I said." he said. further." "Yes. the bewitched you too. the departure of the from our minds either willingly or false opinion from the man who learns otherwise is willing." "And. "Don't you too believe that human beings are unwillingly deprived of good things and willingly of bad ones? Or isn't b being deceived about the truth bad." "I understand the case of the willing departure. as I said a while ago. And the man who has a memory and is hard to deceive must be chosen." he said. I I don't understand again. speech. would say are those who change their opinions either because they are charmed by pleasure or terrified by some fear." he said. or forced?" "Now robbed forget. and to have the truth good? Or isn't it your opinion that to opine the things that are. they must be watched at every age to see if they are skillful guardians of this conviction^* and never under the influence of wizardry or force forget and thus banish the opinion that one must do what is best for the city. So we must watch them straight from childhood by setting them at tasks in which a man would most likely forget and be deceived out of such a conviction. me as though an opinion departs unwillingly." "What do you mean by 'banishment'?" he said. I suppose. in the other. "they would be suitable." "And." "Now then. by the forced "I mean those whom some grief or pain causes to change their opinions." "Yes. "By the and those who away their opinions unawares. in my opinion. "and what you say is correct." I mean those who are persuaded to change said. that of "I'll tell you. is to have the truth?" "What you say is correct." "Then. mustn't he?" are the best guardians of their conviction that they [ 92 ] ." c understand that too. "but I need to learn about the unwilling. we must look for some men who d must do what on each occasion seems best for the city.socrates/gi^ucon the republic to 412 e they were entirely eager to do what they beheve to be advantageous the city and would in no way be willing to do what is not. "It looks to 413 a every true opinion is unwilling." he said. "and in my opinion men are unwillingly deprived of true opinion. takes Now you surely understand?" I "Yes. because in the one case. bewitched by wizards." "Don't they suffer this by being robbed. time. "that's because everything that deceives seems to bewitch." he said. then. I "I'm afraid am speaking in the tragic way." I said.

in the best case." he said. "but a Phoenician thing. pains. And the one who on each occasion." I said.Book III / 412e-414d glaucon/socrates "Yes. wizardry. of which we were just now speaking." then truly most correct to call these men complete guard- b They can guard over enemies from without and friends from within—so that the ones will not wish to do harm and the others will be unable to. so these men when they are young must be brought to terrors and then cast in turn into pleasures." 413 d again. The young.®® which has many places before. but by way of a "And e 414 a model." already happened in said. testing them far more than gold in fire. "Then. "You'll think my "when do speak. ians? we shall call auxiliaries and helpers of the rulers' convictions. If a man appears hard to bewitch and graceful in everything." I said." "That. the rest of the city?" sort of a thing?" I "What he said. and contests in which these same things must be watched. "is the "Isn't it way it looks to me too. And the man who's not of this sort must be rejected." "Could we." he said. whom we were calling guardians up to now. they must be set to labors." "Speak." he said. must be appointed ruler of the city and guardian. and we must look on. "something like this. both while living and when dead." I said. a good guardian of himself and the music he was learning. among the children and youths and among the men. "that is what they should be called. "we must also make them a competition for the third form. I don't know what I'll use for daring or d [ 93] ." he said. and must be allotted the greatest prizes in burial and the other memorials. Just as they lead colts to noises and confosions and observe if they're fearfol. "Nothing new." I said. as the poets assert and have caused others to believe. in my opinion. "and don't be afraid." he said. proving himself to possess rhythm and harmony on all these occasions—such a man would certainly be most useful to himself and the city." "How I like a man who's hesitant to speak you are." "I shall speak— and yet. "In c but if not them. Glaucon. hesitation quite appropriate. is tested and comes through untainted. too." my opinion. but one that has not happened in our time—and I don't know if it could—one that requires a great deal of persiiasion. "somehow contrive one of those lies that come into being in case of need. The selection and appointment of the rulers and guardians is. even the rulers." "Correct. and he must be given honors. not described precisely. some one noble^^ lie to persuade.

by no manner of means are they to take pity on it. "All the same. Hence the god commands the rulers first and foremost to be of nothing such good guardians and to keep over nothing so careful a watch as the children. and similarly all the others from each other. silver. and. When they've come.socrates/glaucon the republic it 414 d speeches in telling —and I'll attempt to persuade city. which is their mother. while. And. hear out the rest of the tale. So. then the earth. if anyone attacks. this is why they are most honored. because you're all related. the soldiers. then the rest of the the rulers and that the rearing and education we first gave them were like dreams. 'but the god. this will go where the report^^ of men shall lead And when we have armed led these earth-bom men. have you some device for persuading them of this tale?" "None at all. in auxiliaries. some to the guardian group. again. as though the land they are in were a mother and nurse.' So.' we shall say to them in telling the tale." he said. others to the auxiliary. they will honor such ones and lead them up. "for these men themselves." I said. "For I understand pretty much what it. at that time they were under the earth within. but shall assign the proper value to its nature and thrust it out among the craftsmen or the farmers." he said. they only thought they were undergoing all that was happening to them. being fashioned and reared themselves. if from these men one should naturally grow who has an admixture of gold or silver. " more for I said. however for their sons and their successors and the rest of the human beings who come afterwards. When the job had been completely finished. then. you mean. and iron and bronze in the farmers and the other craftsmen. a golden child from a silver parent. 'All of you in the city are certainly brothers. seeing which of these metals is mixed in their souls. " 415 a b c d ashamed to tell the lie. although for the most part you'll produce offspring like yourselves. mixed gold in at their birth. let them look out 94 ." "Well. if a child of theirs should be bom with an admixture of bronze or iron. and they must think of the other citizens as brothers and born of the earth." "It was indeed appropriate. "Well. in truth. "for nothing that you were for so long "It wasn't. they must plan for and defend it. believing that there is an oracle that the city will be destroyed when an iron or bronze man is its guardian. let's bring them forth for the fairest by the rulers. it sometimes happens that a silver child will be bom from a golden parent. And now. even that would be good for making them care the city and one another. in fashioning those of you who are competent to rule. sent them up. e and their arms and other tools being crafted.

" he other?" "I said." "do you mean to distinguish the one from the I 416 a shall try to tell you. "Mustn't we every "Of course. if they're going to have what's most important for being tame with each other and those who are guarded by them. if an enemy. you seem to me to mean houses. "Surely the most terrible and flocks in such a shepherds to rear dogs as auxiliaries for the due to licentiousness." said. and ward 415 d e from without." "That's right." he said." "Terrible. "we must. hunger or some other bad habit. "Now. not "How. that they must get the right education." he said. should attack the flock. since they are stronger than they. "Won't these places be such as to provide adequate shelter in both off those winter and summer?" "Yes. "see if this is the way they must live and be will possess any private property except for what's entirely necessary. When they have made the camp and sacrificed to whom they ought. no one will have any house or storeroom into which everyone who wishes cannot come. to c d "And housed if hell speak the truth. The sustenance. to be too sure about that. my dear Glaube sure about what we were saying a while ago. they themselves undertake to do harm to the sheep and inshameful thing of way that stead of dogs become he in like wolves. con. Second. First." way guard against the auxiliaries doing any- ly thing like that to the citizens." said. they'll receive in fixed they're going to be such men." greatest "And wouldn't they have been provided with the safeguard they haye been really finely educated?" "But they have been." he if said. no one ^ [ 95 ] . of course. Or how should it be?" "Like that.Book III / 414d-416e socrates/glaucon place in the city for a military camp. in addition to this education. then. "It's not it is fit fit However. some intelligent man would say that." he said. like a wolf. becoming like savage masters instead of well-meaning allies?" "Yes. from which they could most control those within." I said. as much as is needed by moderate and courageous men who are champions of war. "those of soldiers." moneymakers. they must be provided with houses and other property such as not to prevent them from being the best possible guardians and not to rouse them up to do harm to the other citizens." all is for said. if anyone were not willing to obey the laws." And I said." I "Well. "For "Yes. let them make sleeping places." he said. whatever it is.

for set this all guardians must be provided with houses and the rest in this way. hating and being hated. And thus they would save themselves as well as save the city. "let's say that the very near. they'll be householders and farmers instead of guardians. we not?" "Certainly. houses. these reasons. and currency. So. They'll go regularly to mess together^ like soldiers in a camp and further live a life in common. in such quantity that there will be no surplus for them in a year and no lack either. plotting and being plotted against. nor is it holy to pollute the possession by mixing it with the possession of the mortal sort because many unholy things have been done for the sake of the currency of the many. [ 96 ] . But for them alone of those in the city it is not lawful to handle and to touch gold and silver. while theirs is untainted." said Glaucon. nor to go under the same roof wth it." Then they themselves I as well as the rest of the city are lies already rushing toward a destruction that said.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLIQ 416 e installments from the other citizens as a wage for their guarding. and shall we shall doMm as a law. and they'll become masters and enemies instead of allies of the other citizens. We'll tell them that gold divine sort from the gods they have in their soul always and silver of a and have no 417 a h need of the human sort. nor to drink from silver or gold. Whenever they'll possess private land. they'll lead their whole lives far more afraid of the enemies within than of the former sort those without. nor to hang it from their persons.

"let them too be part of the accusation." will then be?" b [ 97 . also acquire what you were just talking about." "Yes. and entertain foreigners. "What would fault your 419 a someone were to say that you're hardly it's men happy. of course. or make expenditures wherever else they happen to wish. he would say. You leave these things and a throng of others like them out of the acthe city in truth belongs but city as 420 a cusation. that their own —they makto whom who enjoy nothing good from the do others.BOOK IV And Adeimantus apologyi be. if they should wish to make a private trip away from home. "and besides they do it for food alone. and further. they look exactly like mercenary auxiliaries who sit in the city and do nothing but keep watch." I said. Socrates. and build fine big houses. as do the rest. or give gifts to lady companions. So. and possess all the accessories that go along with these things. such as those made by the men reputed to be happy." "Well." "You ask what our apology "Yes. gold and silver and all that's conventionally held to belong to men who are going to be blessed? But. it won't even be possible for them. and." he said. who possess lands. ing these interrupted if and said. and make private sacrifices to gods. they get no wages beyond the food.

We'll say that it wouldn't be surprising if these men. and must compel and persuade these auxiliaries and guardians to do the same. Just as if we were painting statues^ and someone came up and began to blame us. Now then. That men should become poor menders of shoes. which are fairest. drinking in competition from left to having their wheel set before them as often as and feasting. nor will anyone else assume any of those roles that go to make up a city. so that they'll be the best possible craftsmen at their jobs. But don't give us this kind of advice." I said. then he must be speaking of something other than a city. we suppose we're fashioning the happy city a whole city. if we were to be persuaded by you. We supposed we would find justice most in such a city. and similarly for all the others. corrupted and pretending to be what they're not. we must see if it comes to be in the city. So we have to consider whether we are establishing the guardians looking to their having the most happiness. we would judge what we've been seeking for so long. with the entire city growing thus and being fairly founded.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THEREPUBLIq| 420 b c d "Making our way by the same road. and taking a carefiil look at them. we make the whole fair. utterly destroy an entire city. nor the potter a potter. like men at a public festival and not like members of a city. So now too. don't compel us to attach to the guardians a happiness that will turn them into everything except guardians. However. not setting apart a happy few and putting them in it. in its turn. whether looking to this happiness for the city as a whole. Or else. We know how to clothe the fanners in fine robes and hang gold on them and bid them work the earth at their pleasure. the fanner won't be a fanner. and how to make fire. since. don't suppose we ought to paint eyes so fair that they don't even look like eyes. — — — e but observe whether. and how to make all the others blessed in the same way just so the city as a whole may be happy. and they get a desire to make pots. "I suppose we'll find what has to be said. in founding the city we are not looking to the exceptional happiness of any one group among us but. in the worst-governed one. men least likely to do harm to the city. that of the city as a whole. as far as possible. But you surely see that men who are not guardians of the laws and the city. isn't so terrible for a city. The the potters recline before the right^ 421 a b c argument has less weight for these others.' Now if we're making true guardians. assigning what's suitable to each of them. had not been painted purple but black ^we would seem to make a sensible apology to him by saying: 'You surprising man. we [ 98 ] . and. We'll consider its opposite presently. but seem to be. and the same for the other parts. and injustice. as they are. and the one who made that speech is making some farmers and happy banqueters. just as they alone are masters of the occasion to govern it well and to make it happy. are also happiest. saying that we weren't putting the fairest colors on the fairest parts of the animal ^for the eyes.

Adeimantus." 1 said. bad." "Then from both poverty and wealth the products of the worse and the men themselves are worse. "in the first place." "It looks like it. if from poverty he's not even able to provide himwith tools or anything else for his art." he "And "By will he become idler and more careless than he was?" potter then?" far." will 422 a certainly. as it seems. are they?" "Wealth and poverty. "since the one produces luxury. "to speak finely. Socrates. we've found other things for the guardians to slip into the city guard against in every way so that these things never without their awareness." I said. wouldn't one boxer with the finest possible training in the art easily fight with two rich. he'll produce shoddier works." "Now. "that's so. [ 99 ] ." he said. still be willing to attend to his art?" "Not at all. too." "What idleness." e arts are "So." say 421 c "You seem he said.^oofc IV / 420b-422b socrates/adeimantus must let nature assign to each of the groups to me. "Well. in your opinion. if the guardians should have to fight." "Doesn't he become a worse "That. will a potter who's gotten rich said. while the other produces illiberality and wrongdoing as well as innovation. but "Most against two of that sort it would be "How do you mean?" he said." I it easier." he said. "And further." he said." its share of happiness." he said. won't be as champions in war fighting with rich men?" "Yes. by far. consider this: howour city be able to make war when it possesses no money." "Of course. then." if I "Then. especially if it's compelled to make war against a wealthy one?" "It's plain. fat nonboxers?" "Perhaps not at the same time." b said. and innovation." I said." I said. will I." "How?" "Like this: in your opinion." "What are they?" "Wealth and poverty. "However. "that against one it would be harder. "also seem to you to speak sensibly what is akin to that?" "What exactly?" "Take the other craftsmen again and consider whether these things corrupt them so as to d make them I said. self and he'll make worse craftsmen of his sons or any others he teaches.

"that wouldn't be at all surprising." I said. You'll not easily find one city so big as this." he "Therefore. you'll always have the use of many allies and few enemies.^ There are two. while it is for you." he said.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIp 422 h c "Not even if it were possible for him to withdraw a bit. "Then all likelihood our champions will easily fight with two or three times their number. "this would also be the fairest boundary for our rulers." he said." my opinion. And as long as your city is moderately governed in the way it was just arranged.' Do you suppose any who hear that will choose to make war against solid. it will be biggest." I said. as those who play say. "The others ought to get bigger names." "What boundary?" he said. one of the poor. but if you approach them as though they were many. offering to the ones the money and the powers or the very persons of the others. so big must they make the city. So join us in making war and keep the others' property. nor is it lawful for us. although many seem to be many times its size." "What else then?" he said. I do not mean in the sense of good reputation but truly biggest. either among the Greeks or the barbarians." is right in my d "What if they sent an embassy to the other city and told the truth? 'We make use of neither gold nor silver. in any case. money of gathered into one look out that it doesn't endanger the city that 423 a h "You are a happy one. Or do you suppose otherwise?" "No. to strike him." I said "and turning on whichever one came up first. they must let the rest go." he said. and if he did this repeatedly in sun and stifling heat? Couldn't such a man handle even more of that sort?" "Undoubtedly. And within each of these there are very many." "But don't you suppose the rich have more knowledge and experience of boxing than of the art of war?" "I do. bounding off enough land so that it will be of that size. lean dogs^ rather than with the dogs against fat and tender sheep?" the others is "Not in e isn't rich." "I'll grant you that. "for what you say opinion. even if it should be made up of only one thousand defenders." he in said. If you approach them as though they were one. "if you suppose it is fit to call 'city' another than such as we have been equipping. said. warring with each other. by Zeus. "For each of them is very many cities but not a city. "But if the city. [ loo ] . and." I said. you'll be a complete failure. the other of the rich.

" "This is. and if a serious one were bom of the others." "It's likely. will like a circle in its on growth. this." it's I said." he said." I said." I said." he said. but they are as the saying goes. This citizens too "up to that point in its growth grow. he said." "What's that?" he said. think." I said. they guard the one great —or." he said. practicing his own. but guarding it against all comers: there must be no innovation in gymnastic and music contrary to the established order. it "Now. to state briefly. but they will guard against it as much as they not letting can. and sound natures. "that would be the most correct way. he would have to be sent off to the which guardians. let it "That's fine. not become many but one.pook IV / 422b-424b socrates/adeimantus "I suppose this one." he said. slight indeed." "And still slighter than that." they else I said. when they are preserved. "If become sensible men. rather it should be sufficient and one." at 423 b c d was intended to make plain that each of the other man." roll 424 a "Yes. you see. as one might all many great commands we if. they'll easily see to all this by being well educated and everything are now leaving out that the possession of women. rather than e great." "And hence. "Therefore. produce good natures. "is what we mentioned earlier when we said that if a child of slight ability were bom of the guardians. "the regime. the overseers of the city must cleave to it be corrupted unawares. are imposing on them. as with the other animals. in their turn grow up still better than those before is them." my good Adeimantus. which is one. "these are not. For sound rearing and education. and procreation of children must as far as possible be arranged acall we — cording to the proverb that friends have things in common. receiving such an education. one job will will must be brought to that which naturally suits him—one —so that each man." also the case j. he would have to be sent off to the others." is "This "Yet. "perhaps a slight task we will impose on them. well also set this further command on the guardians. wilHng to be one. sufficient—thing. the whole city naturally grow to be one and not many. to guard in every way against the city's being little or seemingly big. and not beyond. once well started. and thus. marriage. for procreation as well as for the other things. "a lesser task than the other. fearing that when someone says Human beings esteem Which floats most that song newest irom the singer^ [ loi ] . "Their education and rearing.

For they must beware of change to a strange fomn of music." he said. as part in itself we were saying at the beginning. making way for them and rising." "Yes. these men." he said." he said. mustn't our boys take 425 a more lawful play straight away. either. they must. "will also find out the seemingly small conventions that were all destroyed by their predecessors. care of parents." sort. and I am persuaded. taking it to be a danger to the whole For never are the ways'' of music moved without the greatest political laws being moved. "It's precisely when the boys make a fine beginning at play and receive lawfulness from music that it— as opposed to what right anything in the city that happened in the former case— accompanies them in everything and grows. it flows gently beneath the surface into the dispositions and practices. good men?" "Of course. Socrates. as it seems. if play becomes lawless and the children along with it." d ians "So "At it's surely here in music. I "But to set them down as laws believe. "that the guard- must build the guardhouse. b "Then. it's not possible that they'll grow up to be law-abiding. the bearing of the body. "this kind of lawlessness* I easily creeps in unawares." "It doesn't do any. "among those who are persuaded. and everything else of the "I do. setting may have previously been neglected. Or don't you think so?" is. Snch a saying shouldn't be praised nor should this one be taken in that sense. shoes. "Is that so?" my opinion. too." "Include me." said Adeimantus. and praises that." "In I said. as Damon says. "since it's considered to be a kind of play and to do no harm. and it's from the contracts. "Then. since. and." he said." "Quite true." I said." he said." least. "except that.^ Surely they [ 102 ] . but a of song. establishing it- self bit by bit. foolish. that it attacks laws and regimes with much insolence until it finally subverts everything private and public." "What kind of things?" "Such as the appropriate silence of younger men in the presence of older ones. and from there it emerges bigger in men's contracts with e one another." said.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIp 424 c new way someone might perchance suppose the poet means not new songs. as a whole. and hair-dos." "Well. well. clothing." I said.

town." I said." he said." "How could "At least always it's Adeimantus. to make their illnesses more comand bigger. " he said. they will be thanks to it ^healthy. and libel. nor would they be maintained. that a god grants them the preservation of the laws we described before. sick but." — I — "Yes. "That. lodging of legal complaints." he said. "You mean. themselves." I said. Most of easily find for these things that need legislation they no doubt." "What about believe this?" said.Book IV 1 424c-426a socrates/adeimantus don't come into being. "Isn't charming the in them that they tells the greatest enemy of all is man who the [ 103 ] . "And get don't they go on charmingly? For all their treatment." suppose we'd also say that the final result is some one complete and hardy thing. "And." I said. "to dictate to vvall. insuit. contracts with manual artisans." "Of course." "That's proper. except. "is why I for one wouldn't go further and undertake to set down laws about such things. "the affections of men who it are sick in this way are exactly like that. aren't vvalling to quit their worthless way "Most " of life. whether good or the opposite. of course. " he said. e my friend. thinking they'll get hold of what's best. I — d — any of these things?" "It isn't worth-while." I said. and." "Yes. always hoping that if someone would just recommend a drug. and. whatever imposts might have to be collected or assessed in the markets or harbors. in writing. by being set 425 b down as laws in speech and they?" likely." certainly. they 426 a plicated nowhere." I said." he said. "that the starting point of a man's education sets the course of call forth like?" what follows too. "they'll spend their lives continually setting down many such rules and correcting them. is. of course. "provided. in the name of the gods. "that such men will live like those who are due to licentiousness. if you wish. or any market. and the appointment of judges. or harbor regulations. or anything else of the kind shall we bring ourselves to set down laws for "Then. "what about that market business the contracts individuals make with one another in the market. "And if not. gentlemen. Or doesn't like c "Of course.

Or isn't it your impression that the very same thing these men do is done by all cities with bad regimes. because anyone at all could find some of these and partly because the rest follow of themselves from the pracsaid. a praiser of such men. burning. for one. with the regime as it is." "You are not. will on that account be the good man and the one wise in important things and be honored by them?" "They certainly do." he said." "Therefore." he said. either in a city with a bad regime or in one with a good regime in the one case because it's useless and accomplishes nothing. "Being harsh with the man who says something good isn't charming." "Not quite charming. partly things. by Zeus. that until one gives up drinking.SCXaiATES/ADEIMANTUS THE REPUBLTp 426 a b c d truth—namely. setting down laws like the ones we described a moment ago and correcting them. there will be no help for one in drugs. sex and idleness." b "Then what. if." he said. nor in charms." "No." "How do you mean?" I said. or anything of the sort. tices already established. stuffing oneself. For such men are surely the most charming of all. which warn the citizens they must not disturb the city's constitution as a whole. and I don't praise them in any respect whatsoever. under pain of death for the man who does." I said. ignorant that 427 a they are really cutting off the heads of a Hydra. as we were just saying. pendants. "as it seems." he "might still remain for our legislation?" [ 104 ] . "except for those who are deceived by them and suppose they are truly statesmen because they are praised by the many. "that I don't suppose. while the man who serves them most agreeably." I said." "And what about the men who are willing and eager to serve such cities? Don't you admire their courage and facility?" "I do. you won't praise it either. indeed. "they do nothing but that." he said." "Well. or cutting. "seem to me to act in the same way. "I." thought that the time lawgiver wouldn't have to bother with that class of things^** in the laws and the regime. "therefore — in the other. always thinking they'll find some limit to wrongdoing in contracts and the other things I was just talking about. "Don't you sympathize with these men? Or do you suppose e it's possible for a it to take measurements not to believe man who doesn't know how when many other men like him say he's a six-footer?" "No." "Then don't be harsh. and gratifies them by flattering them and knowing their wishes beforehand and being clever at fulfilling them. the city as a whole behaves like that." he said.

if we are intelligent. in what they differ from one another." he said. whether it escapes the notice of all gods and humans or not. However for the Apollo at Delremain the greatest. "And that's d e justice in every way in your power. and whatever else belongs to the care of gods. "Plainly." he said. and look yourself—and call in your brother and Polemarchus and the others—whether we can somehow see where the justice might be and where the injustice. it has been correctly founded—is perfectly good." is true. [ 105 ] . nor in founding a city shall we be persuaded by any other man." is "What you say correct. courageous." I said. "You promised you would look for it because it's not holy for you not to bring help to is fine. and he sits in the middle of the earth at its navel and delivers his interpretations. and heroes.^ook IV / 426a'428a socrates/adeimantus/glaucon And given. just as with any other four things. For plainly it couldn't be anything but what's left over. but if we recognized the other three first." I said." "What c what must be done. fairest." 428 a "Therefore. then. "For us. "Plainly." "You're talking nonsense. nothing. I suppose our city—if." "What you remind me of "Necessarily. and which the man who's going to be happy must possess." "Isn't it it's wise." "So then. and first of the laws which are 427 b are they about?" he said. "I hope I'll find it in this way. In the next place." said Glaucon." "What you say he said. this would also suffice for the recognition of the thing looked for. sacrifices. For such things as these we neither know ourselves." I phi** there said. "We'll do so." I said. "and though I must do you too have to join in." he said. "Now. Now this god is doubtless the ancestral interpreter of such things for all humans. that is. that would be enough for us. nor shall we make use of any interpreter other than the ancestral one. son of Ariston. moderate and just. "your city would now be founded. "Foundings of temples. get yourself an adequate light somewhere. and further. demons." the case that whichever of leave as the remainder what hasn't them we happen been found?" if to find will "Of course." so. burial of the dead and all the services needed to keep those in that other place gracious. we were seeking any one of them in something or other and recognized it first. then.

" "But. "that there will be more smiths e in our city than these true guardians?" "Far more smiths." he said. but by knowledge." be called wise. this very thing. For surely not good counsel. it's not thanks to the knowledge that counsels about best that a city must how wooden implements would be "Surely not. "Is there in the city we just founded a kind of knowledge belonging to some of the citizens that counsels not about the affairs connected with some particular thing in the city. but about how the city as a whole would best deal with itself and the other cities?" "There "It's is indeed. "That's it is called skilled in fanning." "Thanks to this knowledge." he said. it's knowledge. rather. the guardian's skill. on the other hand." "What?" he said." "And what about this? Is it thanks to the knowledge of bronze implements or any other knowledge of such things?" "Not to any knowledge of the sort. is it thanks to the carpenters' knowledge that the city must be called wise and of good counsel?" "Not at all. And something about it looks strange. it's Yes. "The city we described is really wise." "Then. do you suppose." he said." I said.^^ isn't it?" "Well. there's city. "and it's in those rulers whom we just now named perfect guardians.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLic to 428 a "With these things too. men counsel well. in my opinion." "Plainly. is plainly a kind of by lack of learning. for that. which first comes plainly to light in it." "Then. [ 106 ] . That's because it's of good counsel. "And that further. "And not to the knowledge about the production of the crop from the earth." he said." "Then. "thanks to that it's called skilled in caipenc try. what do you call the city?" "Of good counsel. in my opinion." my opinion. "and really wise." in "What and whom is it?" I said." be four." d "What about this?" I said. much knowledge of all sorts in the "Of course. since they happen look for them in the same way?" "Plainly. mustn't we b wisdom." he said.

when they want to dye wool purple. And this class." he said. wouldn't the guardians be the fewest of all in number?" "By far." "No." "I mean.Book IV / 428a-429d sochates/glaucon "Among' those." "Just c "But I do wish. Or don't you call that courage?" "I didn't quite understand what you said. "that whether the other men in it are cowardly or courageous would be decisive for its being this or that." of the four. first choose from all the colors the single nature belonging to white things. "it has been satisfactorily discovered. "who would look to anything else. "that the dyers. from the smallest group and part of itself and the knowledge in it." "So a city is also courageous by a part of itself. "who receive a special name for possessing some kind of knowledge. If you wish I'm willing to compare it to what I think it's like." "And." he said. "that courage is a certain kind of presei^ving." "What you say." I said." "So we've found 428 e 429 a — I don't know how—this one is. courage." I said. which properly has a share in that knowledge which alone among the various kinds of knowledge ought to be called wisdom. as it seems. then they prepare it beforehand and care for it with no [ 107 ] . both it and where "In its seat in the city my opinion. has. next. from the supervisingis and ruling part." "I don't suppose." he said." I said." he said. it wouldn't. And by preserving through everything I meant preserving that opinion and not casting it out in pains and pleasures and desires and fears. that a city founded according to nature would be wise as a whole." "It is." "Don't you know. "Say it again." I said." I said. "is very true. both itself as well as where it's situated in courage thanks to which the city must be called courageous—isn't very hard to see." the city—that h c — what sort of preserving?" "The preserving of the opinion produced by law through education about what— and what sort of thing— is terrible. therefore. thanks to that part's having in it a power that through eveiything will preserve the opinion about which things are terrible that they are the same ones and of the same sort as those the lawgiver transmitted in the education. "would say a city is cowardly or courageous while looking to any part other than the one that defends it and takes the field on its behalf?" "There's no one. at least." "How's that?" "Who. the fewest members by nature.

" 430 a b do know." political if "Well. fear. you want. "so as not to do an injustice. "there are for d the city. accept this as courage." "But I do want to. and it is only is dyed in this way. But those things that are not so dyed you know what they becolors or this one without preparatory care little preparation so that will then that they dye? And if a thing — — come like. it becomes colorfast." it. "Most certainly. in my opinion. and pain. Later." " must be seen in the sake of which we are making the still two left that "How could we find justice so moderation any further?" "I for we won't have to bother about my part don't know. sufficient. This kind of power and preservation." that I said. At the I is moment we suppose. courage. I call courage. to the extent of our power." "But I don't say anything else." I said.jlaucon/socrates the republic it 429 d e most receive the color." I said." to light before. of the right and lawful opinion about what is terrible and what not. and so I set it down." we'll give it. "that they're washed out and ridiculous. through everything. and washing either without lyes or with lyes can't take away its whether one dyes other color. and their dye could not be washed out by those lyes so terribly effective at scourmore terribly effective for this than any Chalestrean ing." he said. you "I — — — — regard the right opinion about these same things that comes to be without education lawfully and call it found in beasts and slaves something other than courage. justice." I very true. then. doing something similar when we selected the soldiers and educated them in music and gymnastic." he e if we aren't going to you want to gratify me. now. "Well. Don't think we devised all that for any other purpose than that persuaded by us they should receive the laws from us in the finest possible way like a dye. and desire worse than any other lye." he said. "take it that we too were. so that their opinion about what's terrible and about everything else would be colorfast because they had gotten the proper nature and rearing. consider this before the other. pleasure soda^4 and alkali." "Hence. unless you say something else. moderation and that whole search. justice. want it to come consider moderation any further. "nor would I [ 108 ] . "^^ I said. say. I said. do accept but as it. this weren't looking for is but for For that search. "For. it "and a still you'd be right in accepting finer treatment." he said. If said. "is — — as not at all c "What you "Yes. say " "What you fine.

1'^ Isn't that so?" of order and say when they as than himself." I said. and in those who are called free among the common many. b c "Don't you see that the desires in the all these are in your city too." "But the simple and moderate desires. then this. I am glancing at it." I said. "and what you say is true. The same it is. "this speech looks to me as if it wants to say that. concerning the soul. of course." he said." I said. then. and that there common many are mastered by the desires and the d prudence in the more decent few?" [ 109 J . those led by calculation accompanied by intelligence and right opinion. is blamed and the man in this condition is called weaker than himself and licentious." ' himself is referred to in 431 a of them." I said. "that's likely. "is surely a certain kind mastery of certain kinds of pleasures and desires." "True. At praise." "Of course "But. you will come upon in few." "Yes. and those the ones born with the best natures and best educated. it were. especially in children. as though it were a reproach." "And. tracks. "Seen from here. "It must be considered. its "Most surely. kind of accord and harmony than the previous ones." he said." he said. pleasures. and pains. and you'll find one of these conditions in it. pleasures and pains." "Most certainly. one would find many diverse desires. The phrase 'stronger than himself is used when that least which it's is better by nature is is master over that which training or is worse. in the same human being there is something better and something worse. the one who's stronger than himself would also be weaker than "Isn't the himself. if that in which the better rules over the " worse must be called moderate and 'stronger than itself "Well." "Now. For you'll say that it's justly designated stronger than itself. the smaller and better part mastered by the inferior multitude. domestics." he said." he said. And when. as men use—I don't know in what way—the phrase 'stronger and some other phrases of the sort are used that are. from bad some association. further. phrase 'stronger than himself ridiculous though? For. "take a glance at our young city. women." "How?" 430 e it's more Hke a "Moderation.Book IV / 429d-431d glaucon/socbates "Then consider it. all and the weaker stronger.

in terms of strength." "So then. now station ourselves in c around the thicket and pay attention so that justice doesn't slip through somewhere and disappear into obscurity. "In which of the citizens will you say the moderation resides. "Three of them have been spied out in our city." he said.glaucon/socrates the republic he said." "Follow." "I am. as to which must rule in the city and in each one. 431 d "I do. "And then moderate in all these respects too?" "Very much so" he said.i^ making the weaker." he said." I said. at least sufficiently to form some opinion. each of which resides in a part. e any city ought to be designated stronger than and itself. like hunters. Moderation doesn't work that way. So we would quite rightly claim that this unanimity is moderation." he said. but actually stretches throughout the whole. "we divined pretty accurately a while ago that moderation is like a kind of harmony. "You see. if there is any city in which the rulers and the ruled have the same opinion about who should rule. the stronger and those in the middle whether you wish to view them as such in terms of prudence." is justice. "and pray with me. desires." he said. surely. Clearly it's somewhere hereabouts. Glaucon. or." he said. then this one must be so called. therefore. moreover." "If. according to nature." "If only I could. plainly. pleasures." [ no ] . then it's this one. you'll be making quite sensible use of me. "just lead." I said. money or anything else whatsoever of the sort sing the same chant together." "All right. or multitude. this "Plainly." "That's entirely certain. "very much of the same opinion. "However. Or doesn't it seem so?" "Very much so indeed. Now what would be the remaining form thanks to which the city would further partake in vir- — — h tue? For. you might somehow see it before me and could tell me." he said. the one making the city wise and the other courageous. Look to it and make every effort to catch sight of it. from top to bottom of the entire scale. "And." "Why 432 a so?" it's "Because unlike courage and wisdom. a circle we must. an accord of worse and better. if you wish." I said. if you use me as a follower and a man able to see what's shown him." "I'll do that. when they are in this condition? In the rulers or the ruled?" "In both.

that one for h we have. that justice is the minding of one's own business and not being a bvisybody. it will hardly get good news you report. And yet we were saying that justice would be what's left over from the three if we fovmd them. "for all I one who desires to hear. track. it provided the power by which all these others came into being. As men holding something in their hand sometimes seek what they're holding. you remember." "Well." "How's that?" "It appears." he "Listen whether after set said." said." "And further." I said. but were quite ridiculous. way. "That is. and. we too didn't look at it but turned our gaze somewhere far off. "this— the practice of own business—when it comes probably justice. Do you know how "No. that it's been rolling around^o at our feet from the beginning and we couldn't see it after all. at the we everything when rule in 433 a my opin- ion. which is also perhaps just the reason it escaped our notice. courage. is infer this?" me." opinion." he said. "In my opinion. and. that the city. opinion." "Yes. and prvidence. "At least it's dark and hard to search out. justice." he said. it provides them with preservation as long as it's in the city. one's my friend." of it and said. once having come into being. we've got to go on. my. or a certain form of it. down we beginning as to what must be done in were founding the city—this. "we've got to go on. we have been saying and all along without learning from ourselves that we were in a it." I said. if each one must practice one of the functions in which his nature made him naturally most fit. all the same." I said." "Yes. then." "Yes." way saying "A long prelude. "after my c [ 111 ] . this we have both heard from many others and have often said ourselves. we were saying that. you blessed man." 432 c cj And I caught sight Maybe we've come upon a away from "That's us. "In "tell into being in a certain I minding way." I said.Book IV / 431d-433c socrates/glauco> "The place really appears to be hard going and steeped in shadows. Surely we set down and often said. in my "Here! Here!'^ Glaucon." e "How hearing it "It's this do you mean?" he said. But." make any sense. this is what's left over in the city. "My." he said." I said. "that was a stupid state we were in." I having considered moderation.

it would be a difficult judgment. Will you assign the judging of lawsuits in the city to the rulers? "Of course. ruler and ruled each one minded his own business and wasn't a busybody?" "It would. this power that consists in each man's minding his own business in the city is a rival to " wisdom. strength. in your opinion. as it seems. that's just? "And 434 a of one's therefore." " this. "Very much so." "That's so. with everything else being changed along with it. is a craftsman or some other kind by wealth. [ H2 ] . "if one had to judge which of them by coming to be will do our city the most good. "be a difficult judgment." "Will they have any other aim in their judging than that no one have what belongs to others. slave. freeman. multitude. "Wouldn't you name justice that which is the rival of these others "Yes." "Moreover. when one who inflated b of money-maker by nature. or one of the warriors who's unworthy into that of the adviser and guardian." "Then. moderation and courage. craftsman. or their exchanging tools or honors with one another. tries to get into the class^i of the warrior. or even the same man's trying to do both. with respect to a city's virtue. or something else of the kind. "Now trying to " "But. nor be deprived of what belongs to him?" "None other than "Because "Yes. A carpenter's do the job of a shoemaker or a shoemaker that of a carpenter. of course. woman." he said.glaucon/socrates the republic 433 c d we did. the having and doing to oneself would own and what belongs be agreed to be justice. and these men exchange tools and honors with one another. "and it's necessarily so." he said." he said. — — e in contributing to a city's virtue?" "That's entirely certain. I suppose." I said. would that do any great harm to the city? "Hardly. Is it the unity of opinion among rulers and ruled? Or is it the coming into being in the soldiers of that preserving of the lawful opinion as to which things are terrible and which are not? Or is it the prudence and guardianship present in the rulers? Or is the city done the most good by the fact that in the case of child." "Now consider if it will seem the same from this viewpoint too. see if you have the same opinion as I do." he said. from this point of view too.

Book IV / 433c." "Meddling among the classes. Let's apply what came to light there to a single man. it we would more was our opinion e that this bigger thing is a city. from the just but will be like it. if we should attempt to not." "That's entirely certain. then we'll if What else will there be for us to say? And something else." I to proceed is as you say. "Let's not assert is it ^ so positively just yet. "is also that and no other. Now let's complete the consideration by means of which we thought that." c "Won't you say that the greatest evil-doing against one's is own city injustice?" "Of course." "The way "Then." he said. The opposite of this—the money-making. knowing full well that justice would be in a good one at least. "is that which one calls the same. "Then." that's injustice. of which there are three. "and it must be it's said.con or when it's the same also man tries to do all these things at in once—then this I sup- 434 b pose your opinion that this change them and meddling are the destruction of the city. we would make justice burst into flame." "My opinion. and guardian classes doing what's appropriate.t. and if the two are in agreement. each of them minding its own business in a city would be justice and would make the city just.. unlike or like in that respect in which it's called the same?" he "Then the "Like. "But. so we founded one as best we could.s/cx." "Quite certainly. and once it's come to light. let's say it this way. "he will "But a city seemed to be like it." he said." different city h "Yes.435b sock. whether big- ger or smaller." I said." said." auxiliary. 435 a confirm done. But if something different should turn up in the single man. if this form applied to human beings concede it. everything is fine." be just when each of the three classes of [ 11." he said. then we'll consider see justice first in easily catch sight of some bigger thing that possessed what it's like in one man. considering them side by side and rubbing them together like sticks. Again." it for ourselves. we'll go back again to the city and test it. singly and also agreed by us to be justice there.3 ] . And it. just man will not itself be any with respect to the form of justice. and exchange with one another is the greatest harm for the city and would most correctly be called extreme evil-doing. perhaps.

or do we act with the soul as a whole in each of them once we are started? This will be hard to determine in a way worthy of the argument. is Socrates. and wise because of certain other affections and habits of these same classes. or are there three parts and with a different one we act in each of the different ways? Do we learn with one." he said. "^^ "Quite so. again. it's hardly a slight question." I said. you surprising man. that in my opinion." " "Well. 23 such as those in Thrace. the saying that fine things are hard "It looks true." "True." "But this is now hard. "This is so. Scythia. then. or the love of learning. become spirited with another of the parts within us." he said. "Now it's a slight question about the soul we've stumbled upon. There is another longer and further road leading to it." "Surely not." I said. then. "Does it have these three forms in it or not?" "In my opinion. "and not hard to know. tion. But perhaps we can do it in a way worthy of what's been said and considered before." "So don't grow weary." d "But know well. e "Isn't it he said. "Mustn't we be content with that?" he said. "but go ahead vsath the considera- quite necessary for us to agree that the very as are in the city are in same forms "Surely if and dispositions they haven't each of us? " I said. c man — "Then it's in this way." b ways as a result of the same part of ourselves. which one could affirm is to be found not least among the Phoenicians and those in Egypt. "It would be enough like it. Do we act in each of these [ 114 ] . come there from any other place. or the love of money. my friend." "Quite necessarily.socrates/glaucon the republic it 435 b natures present in minded its own business and. rightly lays claim to the same names. that we'll claim that the single ^with these same forms in his soul —thanks to the same affections as those in the city. It would be ridiculous someone should think that the spiritedness didn't come into the cities 436 a from those private men who are just the ones imputed with having this character. and desire the pleasures of nourishment and generation and all their kin with a third. Glaucon. "Perhaps. moderate courageous." he said." I said. "it will quite satisfy " me too." I said. for me to present." he said. we'll never get a precise grasp of it on the basis of procedures22 such as we're now using in the argument. and pretty nearly the whole upper region. which one could most impute to our region.

the left. could ever . " 437 * [ 115 ] .^ he said. be." "And we'd be right.>ufiier.." he said. we'll know they weren't the same but many. 25 So if we should ever find that happening in these "It's plain that things. or any the more persuade us that something that is the same. jf "All the same." let's try "How?" the same thing won't be willing at the same time to do or suffer opposites with respect to the same part and in relation to the same thing. or that anything else going around in a circle on the same spot does this too. forward. I don't suppose we'd "Now let's have claim that stands still should be said like that. agreed that if it should ever appear otherwise. or do opposites. he said. Isn't that so?" it "Yes." I said. but moving his hands and his head. or backward at the same time that it's spinning. "Then the saying of such things won't scare us." they move in a circle." "All right. to ^3g "Now Jifferent determine whether these things are the same or from each other in this way. at the same time. that the same man at the same time stands still and moves. but rather that one part of him and another moves." "Then if the man who says this should become still more charming and make the subtle point that tops as wholes stand still and move at the same time when the peg is fixed in the same place and they spin. all our conclusions based on it will be undone. with respect to the same part and in relation to the same thing. then in no way does it stand still. "so we won't be compelled to go through |all such objections and spend a long time assuring ourselves they're not |true. we wouldn't accept it because it's not with respect to the same part of themselves that such things are at that time both at rest and in motion." say. and with respect to the straight they stand still since they don't lean in any direction — ^while with respect to the circumference and when the straight inclines to the right. But we'd say that they have in them both a straight and a circumference." he "Is it said.3ooklVI435b-437a claucon/socrat: "That's my opinion too. it is. let's assume that this is so and go ahead." "Now consider what I "Say on." a still more precise agreement so that we won't have any grounds for dispute as we proceed. If someone were to say of a human being standing still. "Not me at least. possible that the respect to the same thing at the same time and with same part should stand still and move?" "Not at all.

whether they are actions That won't make any difference. nor be also for something cold as well." he said. "Being thirsty and hungry and generally the desires. would you set down all such things as opposites to one another." "What about c set all said. "they are opposites. or much or little.jlaucon/socrates the republic 437 a b "That." "Isn't the one for drink and the other for food?" "Yes." he said. it will cause the desire to be for much. "and cause a disturbance. and where it's little. the heat would cause the desire 438 a and where coldness. insofar as the soul wills it. is thirst thirst for hot drink or cold. shall we assert that there is a form of desires and that what we call being thirsty and hungry are the most vivid of them?" "Yes. while the desire for this or that kind depends on additions." "Then." "Now let no one catch us unprepared. and farther. — — " " [ 116 ] . thirsting itself will never be a desire for anything other than that of which it naturally is a desire for drink alone and." "Now since this is so. affections?" embracing to thrusting away. "Each particular desire itself is "That's the way it is. won't you say that the soul of a for we just mentioned? For man who desires either longs it what it it desires or embraces that which or again. "acceptance to refusal. that." this?" I or "Yes. for any particular kind of drink? Or e isn't it rather that in the case where heat to is present in addition to the thirst. wants to become its ownthat something be supplied to nods assent to itself as though someone had posed a question and reaches out toward the fulfillment of what it wills?" "IshaU. "we shall assert it." I said." he said. "is what must be done. alleging that no one desires drink. similarly. I said. willing and wanting —^wouldn't you these somewhere in those classes^^ example. and where the thirst is much on account of the presence of muchness. but good drink. something hot." "Insofar as it's thirst. in a word. for little? But. and notwilling and not-desiring with the soul's thrusting away from itself and driving out of itseff and along with all the opposites of the previously d mentioned acts? "Of course. only for that particular thing itself of which it naturally is. thing more than that of would it be a desire in the soul for somewhich we say it is a desire? For example." "And what about this? Won't we class not-wanting. longing to take something to rejecting it. hungering will be a desire for food?" he said. or.

" "that the greater is such as to be "Than the "Yes. understand." "of all things that are such as to be related something." greater than something?" "Certainly." "Wasn't this by from the others?" "Yes. desires then." "Perhaps." isn't that so?" "And. while a particular kind of knowledge is of a particular kind of thing. didn't isn't this it too bethe come a particular kind of thing itself? And the way with other arts and sorts of It IS. and everything them— doesn't the same thing hold?" certainly. if. what all I wanted to say then. then. "However." I said." . as it seems to me. those that are of a certain kind are related to a thing of a certain kind. is that of things that are such as to be [ 117 ] . heavier to lighter. the hot to the cold. good whatever to 438 and similarly with the other desires. "Yes." he said. again." I said. then. thirst it is. I said. and thegoing-to-be-greater than the-going-to-be-less?" "Of course. the "And. When knowledge of constructing houses came to be." he said. further. after for all. and. knowledge "say that too?" "Well. didn't it differ from the other kinds of knowledge and was thus called housebuild- c mg? "Of course. would be good drink or says that for good things. "the man who would seem make to some sense. and everything of the sort." less?" "And the much-greater than the much-less." "Most "And what about the various sorts of knowledge? Isn't it the same way? Knowledge itself is knowledge of learning itself." he said." its being a particular kind of thing that is different "Since it was related to a particular kind of thing. I mean something like this. or of whatever it is to which knowledge should be related. faster to and further. but good food. double to the like c half. also the once-greater than the once-less. while those that are severally themselves are related only to a thing that "I don't is itself. if you now understand after all. the more slower. is for it everyone.Book IV / 4Jra-438d socrates/glauco food. a desire. "Don't you understand. in relation to the fewer.

" "No.laucon/ SOCRATES THEREPUBLic 438 d related to something." "That's entirely certain. in then. in a word." "If ever something draws it back when it's thirsting. "Doesn't that which forbids such things come into being—when it [ 118 ] . but that one hand pushes it away and the other pulls it in. and this caused it not to be called knowledge simply any more but." "That's entirely certain. wouldn't that be something different in it from that which thirsts and leads it like a beast to drink? For of course. would we assert that sorhetimes there are some men who are thirsty but not willing to drink?" "Surely.. in rela- ." he said." "I will." I "Just as. "won't you include way it is. the same thing wouldn't perform opposed actions concerning the same thing with the same part of itself at the same time. suppose. insofar as is it thirsts. "and it's related to drink." "I understand. those that are only themselves are related to things that are only themselves. as for thirst." "Plainly." he said. "and." it among is those things that are related to something? Surely thirst . and strives for this and impelled toward it." he said. but thirst itself is neither for much nor little. "Isn't "What should one in their soul say about them?" there something do so. but thirst itself is naturally only for drink. and this was health and sickness." "Therefore. it as a consequence also became of a certain sort itself." he said. bidding them to drink and something forbidding them to something different that masters that which bids?" "In my opinion there is. we say. But when knowledge became knowledge not of that alone to which knowledge is related but of a particular sort of thing. "Now. while those that are related to things of e a particular kind are of a particular kind. nor. medicine. the soul of the man who's thirsty." I said." "So a particular sort of thirst isJbr a particular kind of drink. that's the f39 a "And tion to . it's not fair to say of the archer that his hands c at the same time thrust the bow away and draw it near. with the particular kind having been added to it. for any particular kind. good nor bad. it wouldn't. said." I my opinion. b wishes nothing other than to drink. so that it would follow that the knowledge of things healthy and sick is healthy and sick and that of bad and good is itself bad and good." he said. "many and often. And I in no sense mean that they are such as the things to which they happen to be related.

ran toward the corpses and said: 'Look. I suppose you'd say you had never noticed anything of the kind happening in yourself. when desires force someone contrary to calculation. but at the same time he was disgusted and made himself turn away. "let these two forms in the soul others?" "the same as one of them. the desiring. "This speech. "it does indicate that. overpowered by the ' desire. "And what about when a man supposes he's doing injustice?" I said. "I his face. and." "So we won't be irrational. he opened his eyes 440 a wide. such a man's spirit becomes the ally of speech? But as for its making common cause with the desires to do what speech has declared must not be done." once heard something that I trust. he reproaches himself and his spirit is roused against that in him which is doing the forcing. you take your damned wretches." he said. as I say. the irrational^s and desiring. cold or anything else of the sort inflicted on him by one whom he supposes does so justly. we won't. don't we. "notice that. b c [ 119] . won't he be less capable of anger at suffering hunger. and. is spirited a third. "Yes." I said." "No. naming the part of the soul with which it calculates." he said. just as though there were two parties at faction. "if we claim they are two and different from each other. guished. be distinthe part that contains spirit and with which we are or would it have the same nature as one of these I said. thirsts and is agitated by the other desires. nor." I said." "And in many other places." he said." e "Therefore. by Zeus. "The nobler he is. in anyone else. *7 while what leads and draws 439 d present due to affections and diseases?" "It looks like it.^ He desired to look. it. But fill finally. ' Now. the calculating." he said. and the part with which it loves." "I too have heard I he said. Leontius. "It would be fitting for us to believe that. "certainly indicates that anger sometimes ' makes war against the desires as one thing against something else. "No. won't his spirit be unwilfing to rouse itself against that man?" "True. hungers. said." I said.Book IV 1 438d-440c socrates/glaucon comes is into being — ^from calculation. of the fair sight. companion of certain replenishments and pleasures. and for a while he struggled and covered "Perhaps. I suppose." he "But. the son of Aglaion." said. was going up from the Piraeus under the outside of the North Walps when he noticed corpses lying by the public executioner.

" should come to light as something other than it has come to light as different from the b "But it's not hard. "if it the calculating part." I said. by Zeus. certainly." "Quite so. his heart with word. "Is it then different from the calculating part as well. far from it. as for calculating. rulers. Then we supposed it had something to do with the desiring part." "Yes. "for it to come to light as such. Homer that we cited in that other place somewhere He smote c his breast and reproached ." he said. "a fine understanding of what I want to say. clearly presents that Homer [ 120 ] . one could see that they are full of spirit straight from birth. it resembles the likeness you make." e "You have. . auxiliary.socrates/glaucon THE REPUBLIp a 440 c "And what about when Doesn't his spirit in this man believes he's being done injustice? case boil and become harsh and form and." he said. or before it becomes gentle. you see. the spirited." the calculating and the desiring? as there "Yes. For. and the many do so quite late. Moreover. And to them can be added the testimony of earlier. while. having been called in by the speech within him like a dog by a herdsman?"^* "Most course. money-making. or death intervenes. "what you have said is fine.^2 which has calculated about better and worse and rebukes that which is irrationally spirited as though it were a different part. And. "there is the third. But beyond that." I Or just said. in beasts one could see that what you say is so." I said. cold and everything of the sort. is there in the soul too this third. some seem to me never to get a share of it. by nature an auxiliary to the calculating part. and deliberative. but now. and not cease from its noble efforts before it has succeeded. are you aware of this too?" "What?" "That what we are now bringing to light about the spirited is the opposite of our recent assertion." he said. or is it a particular form of it so that there aren't three forms in the soul but two. just as desiring part. 441 a were three classes in the city that held it together. if it's not corrupted by bad rearing?" "Necessarily. even in little children. of we who put the auxiliaries in our city like dogs obedient to the are like shepherds of a city. even if it an ijj alliance for battle with what seems just. we say that in the faction of the soul it sets its arms on the side of the calculating part. suffers d hunger. doesn't it stand firm and conquer." Here.

Glaucon. and then not minding its own business. the same suppose we'll say that a man is just in manner is that a city too was just. "that must be remembered." "Isn't it by now necessary that the private man be wise in the same way and because of the same thing as the city was wise?" "Of course." "Moreover." he said. for each of us too. will be set over the desiring—which is surely most of the soul in each and by nature most insatiable for money—and they'll watch it for fear of its being filled with the socalled pleasures of the body and thus becoming big and strong. 4^2 much "we've had a hard swim through that and pretty agreed that the same classes that are in the city are in the soul of is each one severally and that their number "Yes." "This too entirely necessary." music and gymnastic make them accordant. "And these two. "Then we must remember that. we surely haven't forgotten that this city was just because each of the three classes in it minds its ov^ti business. that is necessary." I "And." < "Indeed. and that in everything else that has to do with virtue both are alike?" < "Yes." he said. and for the spirited part to be obedient to it and its ally?" "Isn't it "Certainly. that's so. further." I certainly. since it is wise and has forethought about all of the soul." I said. won't a mixture of 442 one's entire life." he said. thus trained and having truly learned their own business and been educated. further." "And. "wouldn't these two do the finest job of guarding against enemies from without on behalf of all of the soul and the body." proper for the calculating part to rule. that a city be courageous because of the same thing and in the same way as a private man is courageous. [ 121 ] ." said. taming it by harmony and rhythm?" "Quite so. is entirely correct." he said. he said." equal.Book IV / 440c-442b glaucon/sochate "What you say "Well. as we were saying. while relaxing the other with soothing tales. tightening the one and training it in fair speeches and learning." "We haven't in my opinion forgotten." "Most "So. but attempting to enslave and rule what is not appropriately ruled by its class and subverting every"So. the one within whom each of the parts minds its own business will be just and mind his oviTi business.

upon accepting a deposit of gold or silver. it. wouldn't this man be beyond would be beyond them." "And what about this? Isn't he moderate because of the friendship and accord of these parts—when the ruling part and the two ruled parts are of the single opinion that the calctilating part ought to rule and d don't raise faction against it?" "Moderation." "What about this?" I said. "is nothing other than this. still "If there are any doubts in our soul. "And as for temple robberies. surely. and with c its what has been decided?" "Yes." "And then I suppose we call a single man courageous because of that part—when his spirited part preserves. following the ruler. further. through pains and pleasures. them?" "Yes. the other making war. we were required to come to an agreement about whether." "Which ones?" "For example. what has been proclaimed by the speeches about that which is terrible and that which is not. if." he said. in city "Now. concerning this city and the man who by nature and training is like it." he said. in its turn." way whatsoever be faithless in [ 122 ] . "Has our justice in any way been blunted so as to seem to be something other than what it came to light as in the city?" "Not e in my opinion." "Correct." I said. he thefts. that's so. he would in no oaths or other agreements. of course." so often saying." he said. and betrayals. "we could reassure ourselves completely by testing our justice in the light of the vulgar standards.sockaWoi^ucon the REPUBLIC courage fulfilling i42 b the one deliberating. a man will be just because of that which we are and in the same way." "And wise because of that little part which ruled in it claimed these things." he said. or in private man. such a man would seem to be the one to filch it do you suppose anyone would suppose that he would be the man to do it and not rather those who are not such — 3 a as he is?" "No one would." "Quite necessarily." "And. either of com- rades in private or cities in public. possesses within "Most certainly. him and prothe knowledge of that which is beneficial for each part and for the whole composed of the community of these three parts.

and only then. " in them. In all these actions he believes and names a just and fine action one that preserves and helps to produce this condition. Then. something of this sort. "Isn't the cause of all this that. seems. " some god." he said. He doesn't let each part in harmonic scale. "what you say "All right." this "Are you still looking for justice to be something different from power which produces such men and cities?" "No. with respect to d and his own." man than this "Of every other kind. each of the parts in him minds its own business?" "That and nothing else is the cause. not with respect to with respect to what is a man's minding his external business. but what truly concerns him him mind other people's business or the three classes in the soul meddle with each other. however. he binds them together and becomes entirely one from many. by Zeus. but really sets his own house in good order and rules himself." rightly practices "It looks like it. exactly like three notes in a e — learning." "Then that dream of ours has reached its perfect fulfillment. lowest. he arranges himself. we probably hit upon an origin and model c a kind of "That's entirely certain. and wisdom the knowledge that supervises** this action." is 444 a the "Socrates.Book IV 1 442b-440a glaucon/socrates "Of course not. or concerning private contracts. while he believes and names an unjust action one that undoes this condition. or something political. through for justice." and the carpenter "But in truth justice was. "If we should assert that is we have found I man and city and what justice really we'd seem to be telling an utter lie." "Further. so far as ruling and being ruled are b concerned. neglect of parents." he said. in its turn. adultery. And if there are some other parts in between." said. and harmonizes the three within. turns out to be after all — that's also why it's helpful —the as it phantom of fact that the shoemaker by nature else.^ saying that " I mean our city's we suspected that straight from the beginning of the founding. and failure to care for the 443 a gods are more characteristic of every other kind of one. indeed. if he does act in some way either concerning the acquisition of money. "I'm not. Glaucon. the opinion that supervises this action." just I entirely true. highest and middle. or the care of the body. and so on for the rest. he acts. don't suppose [ 123 ] . "And justice this. moderate and harmonized." he said. shoemaking and does nothing practices carpentry. becomes his own friend.' and lack of parts.

and rebellion of a part of the soul against the whole? The purpose of the rebellious part is to rule in the soul although this is not proper." from the healthy and the what these are in a body." I said. in sum." "So it is. since by nature it is fit to be a slave to that which belongs to the ruling class. "as for performing unjust actions isn't and being unjust clearly and. as e it seems. "isn't to parts of the soul in a relation of mastering." sickness. vice entire. and being ruled by. and. interference." It IS. produce justice to establish the and being mastered by." he "Shall we assert it. one another that is according to nature. and vice a sickness. "they don't differ "Because." "In what way?" he said." c "Then." manifest. would be a certain health.glaucon/socrates THE REPUBLip said." [ 124 ] . again." "To produce health is to establish the parts of the body in a relation of mastering. "Then. doing just things. lack of learning. of them are by injustice and justice are also manifest?" I now "How sick. and being mastered by. one nature. while to produce sickness is to establish a relation of ruling. suppose injustice must be con- "Plainly. beauty and good condition of a soul. and that the confusion and wandering of these parts are "Certainly. so?" said. 444 a "By Zeus. they are in a soul. one another that is contrary to nature. in its turn. then. another that is according to establish a relation of ruling." he said. while to produce injustice is to and being ruled by. "Surely healthy things produce health and sick ones "Yes. one another that is contrary to nature?" "Entirely so. ugliness and weakness. I "Let's assert "So be sidered. "that is what they what all are." b it." injustice licentiousness." he said." it. in its turn. be a certain faction among those three— meddling." it then?" "After that.^^ Something of this sort I suppose we'll "Mustn't say. no indeed." I said. "Virtue." "Doesn't doing just things also produce justice and unjust ones in- d justice?" "Necessarily. if I said." "Don't fine practices also conduce to the acquisition of virtue and base ones to vice?" "Necessarily. cowardice.

For whether it's ynany or one who arise. "But all the same. none of the city's laws that are worth mention5j. by Zeus. J^^stocracy. those. but some four among "How do you mean? "There are. "I say that this is one form. If life doesn't seem livable with the body's nature corrupted. from a lookout as jibrm for virtue IJthem are also were. jbut it could be named in two ways. we " mustn't weary." " he said. that are worth looking "I am following. I said. here. since we've come to the place from which we are able to see most clearly that these things "So. if he uses that rearing and education we described. it would be called a kingship. "must we shrink back. "Least of all. even if a man does whatever else he might want except that which will rid him of vice and injustice and will enable him to acquire justice and virtue? Isn't this clear now that all of these qualities have manifested their characters in our description?" "Yes. for vice. not even viith every sort of food and drink and every sort of wealth and every sort of rule." d he said. practice fine ones. it is ridiculous. it me though there is one and an unlimited number worth mentioning." he said. and be just whether or not oiie's being such remains unnoticed. "Therefore. " I said. [ 125 ] . I said." I said. an ^ arose they are. in at." to this point in the arguas "Well." "and five of soul. "so you too can see just how many c my opinion. "If one exceptional man among the rulers." "But Socrates. "How many "Tell is that?" I said. " "Five of regimes. as it — 444 e 445 a — h are so. "Just tell me." t e It's not likely. "that inquiry looks to me as though it has become ridiculous by now." "Now come forms vice." he said." he said. "now that we've it come up looks to sment. if more. "I say that one type of regime would be the one we've described. it now remains for us to consider whether it is do just things.Book IV 1 440a-445e socrates/glaucon profitable to seems. has." "likely to be as many " types of soul as there are types of regimes possessing distinct forms." ^^- me what "True.ing would be changed." I said." he said. vdll it then be livable when the nature of that very thing by which we live is confused and corrupted." I said. or whether it is profitable to do provided one doesn't pay the penalty and beinjustice and be unjust come better as a result of punishment. at least.


and that not the least. so you won't have to go through it. as he stooped over. "In our opinion you're taking it easy. "Because of what in particular?" I said."'' [ 127 ] . and this applies to both governments of cities and the organization of soul in private men. that after all it's plain to everyone that." "What are they?" he said. And you supposed you'd get away with it by saying." he said.BOOK V what I call such a city and regime and bad and mistaken. And I said. now speaking aloud. said some things in his ear. and right." he said. while the rest I call — — h c be in common. of which we overheard nothing other than his saying: "Shall we let it go or what shall we do?" "Not in the least. is 449 a such a man. the things of friends will "Good. and. began to draw him toward himself. There are four forms of badness." said Adeimantus. then. if this one is really right. as though it were something quite ordinary. But Polemarchus^ ^he was sitting at a little distance from Adeimantus stretched out his hand and took hold of his cloak from above by the shoulder. as for women and children. And I was going to speak of them in the order that each appeared to me to pass from one to the other. "and robbing us of a whole section^ of the argument. "What in particular aren't you letting go?" "You.

how they'll be reared and that whole community of women and children of which you speak. So that it. Never mind about us. There could be many ways. and their rearing when they are still young. "but this as to ment — — ference." said Glaucon. For. in a regime's being right or not right. even if. You don't know how great a swarm of arguments you're stirring up with what you are now summoning to the bar. "Don't hesitate. Socrates." I said. Attempt to say what the manner of it must be. since you're taking 450 a on another regime before having adequately treated these things. "you can take this as a resolution approved by all of us. they could come into being. Socrates. 449 c "Isn't that right. "In fact. And as for you. "Even more "What a thing you've done in arresting " than what we went through before. "the proper measure of listening to such arguments is a whole life." he said." said Thrasymachus. said. we've resolved what you heard not to release you before you've gone through all this just as you did the rest. We think it makes a big difference. from the beginning again as it were. I saw it then and passed by so as not to cause a lot of trouble. in the time between birth and education. the whole dif- "Yes." he "Your audience won't be hard-hearted." — "Include me too as a partner in this vote. or rather. about the regime I was delighted to think I had already described. you happy man.socrates/adeimantus/glaucon/thrasymachus the REPUBLIC) I said. that they would be what is best will also be doubted. in the best possible conditions. "do you suppose these men have come here now to look for fool's gold^ and not to listen to arguments?" "Yes. once bom." I said." "For intelligent men. Adeimantus?" d 'right." 128 .' Hke the rest. my dear comrade. and. I said. "but in due measure. it could be doubted that the things said are possible. since we've been waiting all this time supposing you would surely mention begetting of children ^how they'll be begotten and. content if one were to leave it at accepting these things as they were stated then. or distrustful."^ h c me. don't weary in going through your opinion about the things we ask: what the community of children and women will be among our guardians." said Glaucon. it admits of many doubts. is in need of arguwhat the manner of the community is. is why there's a certain d hestitation about getting involved in for fear that the ' argument might seem to be a prayer. which seems to be the most trying." said Thrasymachus. So don't pass over the particular one you mean. or ill-willed." "What. Now." "It's not easy to go through. "How much discussion you've set in motion.

" . "Well." he said. as "^ the law says. to complete the female. It's not because I'm knew whereof I speak. you're doing exactly the opposite. Do we believe the females of the guardian dogs must f ^ guard the things the males guard along with them and hunt with them. as far as this goes." "The man who deed is is released in the case of involuntary murder is in- guiltless. there is. good. presumably you're saying that because you wish to encourage me?" I And "I said. "For human beings bom and educated as we described. I'll not only fall myself but also drag my friends down with me. then. or must they stay indoors as though they I "So let's it d |. and just things in laws. So you've given me a good exhortaafraid of being laughed — — in slipping b *tion. Presumably we attempted in the argument to establish the men "Then. among prudent and dear men. But to present arguments which is just what I am tat a time when one is in doubt and seeking doing ^is a thing both frightening and slippery. if it in the other. "Like this. about what is greatest and dear." he said. "But.^ Glaucoa. is a thing that is safe and encouraging. if we are affected some discordant way by the argument." "Yes. 450 d am. ?•- along with ' [ 129 ] . for what I'm going to say. I said. and do the rest in common. "I — c '> 'I - c k as guardians of a herd. It's better to run that risk with enemies than friends. I expect that it's a lesser fault to prove to be an unwilling murderer of someone than J a deceiver about fine.Book V 1 449c-451 d socrates/glaucon "Best of men." } And Glaucon laughed and said. "Well. must now go back again and say what perhaps T should have been said then in its turn. Be bold and in speak. it — — e 451 a that's childish at but because I'm afraid that from the truth where one least ought to slip.* especially since you are so insistent about issuing this summons. To speak knowing the truth. we'll release you like a man who is guiltless of murder and you won't be our deceiver. no right acquisition and use of children and women ^^ other than in their following that path along which we first directed K them." "How?" he said.. in my opinion.right this way after having completely finished the male drama. However. I prostrate myself before Adrasteia." I said." follow this up by prescribing the birth and rearing that go and consider whether they suit us or not. And it's probably so in this case too. Socrates. "If I believed I would be a fine exhortation. speak. maybe it would be .

" " "On things is the basis of what you say. when all it became clear to those is who used these practices that to uncover such things better than to hide them. it's not possible.9 not only the young ones."" he said." then. in music and. "it's likely. "to use any animal for the same things if you don't assign it the same rearing and education?" "No. women I also. "Or is it plain that its the women exercising naked with the men in the palaestras. " "Yes. not the the bear- ing of arms and the riding of horses." "Is it possible." I said. and what has to do with war." given to the men. must be and they must be used in the same ways. the jokes — we mustn't be afraid a of whatever kind —the wits might make least. while the males work and have all the care of the flock?" "Everything in common. they must 452 a also be taught the same things." he said. '° but to be serious. in if such change took place in gymnastic. too." I "But. we use the women for the same things as the men. and reminding them that it is not so long ago that it it seemed shameful and ridiculous to the Greeks to see — as does now to the that many among the barbarians— men naked. d a comedy "I of all that. "If. but even the older ones. when they are wrinkled and not pleasant to the eye.socrates/glaucon the republic r 451 d e were incapacitated as a result of bearing and rearing the puppies. begging these men. and when the Cretans originated the gymnasiums. and then the it Lacedaemonians. "except that we use the females as weaker and the males as stronger. suppose. many of the would look ridiculous if they were to be done as said. [ 130 ] . "since we've started to speak. not to mind their own business. weve begun to speak." said." of c all 1 said." "What you "But since say is right. "that would look ridiculous in the present "Whats the most ridiculous thing '" state of things." "Well." "Now music and gymnastic were "Yes. "Indeed they would. all the same love gymnastic?" 'By Zeus! he said. like the old men in the gymnasiums who. said." he said. we must make our way to the rough part of the law." he b you see among them?" I said." now being said "compared to what is habitual. was possible for the urbane of the time Or dont you suppose so? "^^ to make do. "Perhaps." "Then these two assigned to the arts.

" e he said. whatever it may be. or. "This. and do beg you. to interpret the argument on our behalf too. Of course. " " "Do you want "to carry on the dispute b c "Then cording to isn't it also fitting to prescribe a different " work to each ac- its nature? " "Certainly." he said. "But I shall beg you. Glaucon. For at the beginning of the settlement of the city you were founding. 452 d believes anything is he is empty who than the bad. and who tries to proridiculous other this And showed that duce laughter looking to any sight as ridiculous other than the sight of the foolish and the bad. and many other things of the sort. or in some things yes and in others no. that " " " d " [ 131 ] . it's not very easy. let's say: 'Socrates and Glaucon. although they have a nature that is most distinct?' What have you as an apology in the light of this. us. "I suppose we did agree. and represent those on the other side ourselves so that the opposing argument won't be besieged without defense?" "Nothing stands in the way." "Can it be that a woman doesn't differ in her nature very much from a man?'" "But of course she differs." "That's entirely certain. when you assert that the men and the women must do the same things. "Then. you yourselves agreed that each one must mind his own business according to nature. I said. was frightened of." said. you surprising man?" "On the spur of the moment. on their behalf. then. again. particularly with respect to war? Wouldn't one who thus made he the finest beginning also be likely to make the finest ending?" "By far. he who looks seriously to any standard of beauty he sets up other than the good. can it "How be. an agreement whether these things ^whether are possible or not. there's no need for others to dispute vidth you. and I shrank "foreseeing them long ago. and give anyone who wants to dispute the opportunity to it's a man who likes to play or one who is serious dispute whether female human nature can share in common with the "Mustn't first we then come to — — 453 a nature of the male class in all deeds or in none at all. he said.Book V 1 451d-453d socrates/glaucoiN then what was ridiculous to the eyes disappeared in the light of what's best as revealed in speeches." I said. is what I from touching the law concerning the possession and rearing of the women and children. you aren't making a mistake now and contradicting yourselves.

"^^ "This is surely what happens to many." I said. we were we assigned different practices to a different when nature and the same ones distinguishing to the same." falls said. because they are unable to consider what's said by separating it out into its forms.^^ They pursue contradiction in the mere name of what's spoken about. does h "It it?" most certainly does. using eristic. "At least we run the risk of un- willingly dealing in contradiction. many fall into it apply to us too at present. and applying alone." I said. "However. and eristically." he said." "Oh. not dialectic.." he "It isn't. one the same. "let's see if we can find the way out." "Then we too must swim and try to save ourselves from the argument. bald men are shoemakers. as ourselves whether the nature of the bald and the longhaired seems. longhaired ones are." it "Accordingly. "would certainly be ridiculous. hoping that some dolphin might take us on his back or for e some other unusual "It rescue. Now we agree that one nature must practice one thing and a different nature must practice a different thing. then the others can't be. then. I said." I or if the any other reason than that we didn t refer to every sense of same and different nature but were guarding said." "No. we courageously. "ridiculous for [ 132 ] ." I said."^^ seems so. Is this the accusation against us?" "Exactly." I seem an easy is thing. "in my opinion. and that women and men are different." he said. innot the same must not have the same practices. "we didn't consider c it." or opposite. And. with one another. "it doesn't 453 d "By Zeus." "Most certainly." said. any sort of consideration of what form of different name is to what. one into a Httle swimming pool all nevertheless swims or into the middle of the biggest sea. it a fact that whether." "How?" "Following the sist that a nature that But we didn't make and same nature. Glaucon. we won't let the longhaired ones be shoemakers. "the power of the contradicting art is "Why willingly so?" I even unand suppose they are not quarreling but discussing." he said. "But this doesn't "Because." "That. for us to ask is the same if when we agree that it is opposite. "Come.glaucon/socrates THE REPUBLIC said. "it's permissible." he said." grand." "Is it. But at present we are asserting that different natures must practice the same 454 a things.

" "'Come." its entirely different.' we'll say to him. "will assert that there are others. then we'll say that that art they look as though they differ in this and the male mounts." "Do you know of anything that is practiced by human beings which the class of men doesn't excel that of women in all these respects? in Or [ 133 . Or don't you suppose so?" "I do.Book V 1 4533." I said. we'll still suppose that our guardians and their women must practice the same things." "Well." he would say that. we meant that a man and a woman whose d souls are suited for the doctor's art have the same nature. while the other. perhaps another said a little man would it also say just what you while ago: that it's not easy to answer adequately on the isn't at all spur of the moment. but upon consideration. rather." to "Do you want us then to follow us and see practice beg the man who contradicts in this way point out to him that there is no if we relevant to the government of a city that is peculiar to can somehow h woman?" "Certainly. "if either the class of men or that of women shows superiority in some to art or other practice. we'll assert that it has not thereby yet been proved that a woman differs from a man with respect to what we're talking about. now. having chanced on a lot of learning and practice. starting from slight learning. the other with difficulty. and the bodily things give adequate service to the thought of the man with c the good nature while they oppose the thought of the other man? Are there any other things than these by which you distinguished the man who has a good nature for each discipline from the one who hasn't?' "No one. "Yes. won't us this very thing — we bid the man who what says the opposite to teach ^with respect to art or with the organization of a city the nature of a the same. now. but rather different?" what practice connected woman and a man is not 455 a "At least that's just. the one." "And rightly. that the female bears e "After that. is able to carry discovery far forward in the field he has learned.-4550 socrates/glaucon only that form of otherness and hkeness which appUes to the pursuits 454 c themselves? For example." he said. must be assigned it. hard. 'answer. But if alone. can't even preserve what he learned. "Then. Is this what you meant? Did you distinguish between the man who has a good nature for a thing and another who has no nature for it on these grounds: the one learns something connected with that thing easily." he said." "But a man doctor and a man carpenter have difiFerent ones?" "Of course.

many women is are better than say." this? Is there a lover of is "And what about wisdom? And one who "There is. it as you "Therefore. [ 134 ] . that was it." "Then we have come around and agree that the women it's " full circle to where we were before to not against nature to assign music and gymnastic guardians. therefore.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLIp — 455 c d shall we draw it out at length by speaking of weaving and the care of baked and boiled dishes just those activities on which the reputation of the female sex is based and where its defeat is most ridiculous of all?" "As you say. many men in many no things. but in all of them woman is weaker than man. and woman participates according to nature in all practices." therefore. my friend. "it's true that the one class is quite dominated in virtually everything." he said." therefore. as a whole. respect to guarding a city. other stronger. by the other. at to women?" "For I suppose there is. must also be chosen to live and guard with such men. also selected for the men fit for guarding?" "Certainly. But." "It looks like it. but the natures are scattered alike among both animals. there are these too. as we shall medicine and another not. or to man because he's man. there is practice of a city's governors e which belongs to woman because she's woman. "Men and women. so to speak. However. one woman apt musical by nature." "Certainly. shall all of them to men and none assert." "And isn't there then also one apt at gymnastic and another unwarlike and no lover of gymnastic? " at war." we assign "How could we?" "So. and "I suppose so. and man in all. have the same nature with except insofar as the one is weaker and the also b "Such women. "And natures? mustn't the same practices be assigned to the same "The same. one Or wasn't it a nature of this sort " woman we for guarding and another not." one woman apt at music and another un- 456 a "Of course." " "Certainly. wisdom and spirit?" a hater of spirited and another without fit "Yes. since they are competent and akin to the men in their nature.

war and the rest of the city's strip. is agreed?" best?" "Yes." the citizens? said. brought accomplish this?" we have described. I 135] . which do you think will turn out to described or the shoemakers. understand." down is therefore not only possible but also "So it is. since the law we were setting down is according to nature. there will be no other. it there anything better for a city than the coming to be in of the best possible women and men?" to bear as "There will is not." "In the city we were men for us —the guardians who get the education we have " founding." "Weren't we considering whether what best?" "Yes. especially since it is dealing with the same nature?" d " "No." "And what about Won't these women be the best of the women?" "That. by "Is far." 456 b c "Then we weren't giving laws. will one education won't proit. ' he said. since they'll clothe themand they must take common part in guarding. too. against nature. duce men for us and another women." "But next "Plainly." that it is "And possible. "And music and gymnastic. Rather. as it seems. 457 a setting "Of course." "So it seems. the way things are nowadays proves to be. then.Book V 1 455c-457a glaucon/socrates "That's entirely certain. we say is possible and we were. educated in shoemaking? "What you ask "I is ridiculous." I he said." "Then the women guardians must selves in virtue instead of robes." "What's your opinion about this? "What?" "Conceiving for yourself that one man worse? Or do you believe them all to be alike?" is better and another "Not be better at all. that are impossible or hke prayers. and must not do other things. "And what about this? Aren't they the best among g this? "By far." "The law we were best for a city." it must be agreed that it is "In making a woman fit for guarding.

in their be common." "But you didn't run away unnoticed. "But I suppose that there would not. as I suppose. if possible.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLIC 457 a b must be given to the women than the weakness of the class. and neither is parent know own off- spring. if in your thought I would run opinion it were beneficial. I don't suppose it would be disputed that the community of women and the community of children are." is a conspiracy of arguments against me. wave you're escaping. "when you " see the next one. this. "very well be dispute about both. nor a child his parent." But lighter parts of these tasks men — — — "That's entirely certain. and his d no woman turn. must share all pursuits in common.'^ as it about the woman's lay it law." I said." he "You'll say that said.'"^ so that swept away when we down that our we aren't entirely guardians. the greatest good. "and the others that went "Tell before is. will a And the children." he said. And such men." said. " he said. "so its far as con- cerns doubt both as to possibility and its beneficialness. And the man who laughs at because of the naked women practicing gymnastic for the sake of the best. at least. and let me see it. Let me take a holiday like the idle men who are accustomed to feast their minds for themselves when they walk along. "I "You mean possible or not left. "The law that follows this one. "I must submit to the penalty." I said. 'plucks from his wisdom an unripe fruit for ridicule''^ and doesn't know as it seeriis at what he laughs or what he does." "As to whether it is beneficial. in a way the argument is in agreement with itself that it says what is both possible and beneficial?" "And indeed." he " said. "so present an 458 a argument for both. before finding out in what way something they desire 136 . "it's not a little it's not a big one either." "May we then were." I away from the other argument." he said. men and women." "What?" "All these women are to belong to all these men in common." e arise a great deal of dispute as to whether they are possible or "There could. then I would have the one about whether it's that there said. For this is surely the fairest thing that is said and will be said the beneficial is fair and the harmful ugly. you know. c in telling assert that we are escaping one wave." "This one far bigger than the other." me." I said. will is to live privately in with any man. rather. "Do me this favor. I however.

" I said. with natures that are as similar as possible. ever notice something about riages and procreation?" "What?" he said. or to do anything else of the sort. will hand over the women to them. And. then. in the name of Zeus. in "I c others—all those laws.Book V I 457a-459a socrates/glaucon put that question aside so they won't grow weary deliberating about what's possible and not. Or am I not. I too am by now soft myself. I suppose." "It's likely. how the rulers will arrange these things when they come into being and whether their accomplishment would be most advantageous of all for both the city and the guardians. their I Did you. "I suppose that if the rulers are to be worthy of the name. the latter will be willing to do what they are commanded and the forrher to command. with no one privately possessing anything of the kind." "No. just as you selected the : i J ." d e |cred. Glaucon. and now." he said. isn't holy in a city of happy men nor will the rulers allow it. "so make your consideration. 455 a making yet idler a soul that is already idle." he said. can exist. "But."i8 J : "So then. "it's not just. having set it down as possible. Glaucon." "Well." he said. their lawgiver. if you permit. to have irregular intercourse with one another. For I how will they be most beneficial? Tell me this. And the most beneficial marriages would be sa"That's entirely certain." we he leave to their discretion—they will imitate the said. men. "Well. since they have common houses and mess. and their auxiliaries likewise. next. h and the other later. "you. mar- [ 137 ] . In some of their commands the rulers wiU in their turn be obeying the laws. speaking of necessities?" "Not geometrical but erotic necessities. They set down as given the existence of what they want and at once go on to arrange the rest and enjoy giving a full account of the sort of things they'll do when it has come into being. if you permit me. And all of them will be together. having selected them in the same way too. they'll be led by an inner natural necessity to sexual mixing with one another. I'll attempt to consider this with you first." I said. then. in your opinion." I said. mixed together in gymnastic exercise and the rest of the training." "Very much so." "Then it's plain that next we'll make marriages sacred in the highest possible degree. and I desire to put off and consider later in what way it is possible. "which are likely to be more stinging than the others when it comes to persuading and attracting the bulk of the people." do permit. I'll consider. 459 a see hunting dogs and quite a throng of noble cocks in your house.

" "True. my. "Now. [ 138 1 . who There are." species of he in said." a need "How "On so?" I said. "Presumably we believe that for bodies not needing drugs." c d it is." "And if they weren't so bred. And. it seems it is not the least that this 'right' in marriages and procreations. of course. comes into being. But." "Of course "And we were right. dear comrade. of course. and the reverse for the most ordinary men with the most ordinary women." "And what about this? From the youngest. 459 a "First. we know there is need of the most courageous doctor. and the offspring of the former must be reared but not that of the others. the basis of what has been agreed. "Is it horses and the other animals?" { any way different?" "That would be strange." he said. we said that everything of this sort is useful as a form of remedy. And all this must come to pass without being noticed by anyone except the rulers themselves if the guardians' herd is to be as free as possible from to faction. "It's likely that our rulers will have to use a throng of lies and deceptions for the benefit of the ruled." he said. when there is also a need to use drugs." I said. "Do you breed from best as or are you eager to breed from the much as possible?" b as "From the best." men . or much as possible from those in their prime?" "From those in their prime. "My. "how very much we need eminent rulers after all. "Quite right." I said. "And what do you think about said. if it is also the same with the human species." he said." he said. aren't there some among them are and prove to be best?" all alike. do you believe that the birds and that of dogs would be far worse for you?" "I do.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLifl although they are all noble. even a common doctor will do. "but why does that affect the rulers?" "Because it will be a necessity for them to use many drugs. or from the oldest." I said. but to what purpose do you say this?" "To this." "there is for the best e have intercourse as often as possible with the best women. if the flock is going to be of the most eminent quality. but willing to respond to a prescribed course of life.

and our poets must make hymns suitable to the marriages that take place." "If. presumably." he said." 1 rue." I said. as seemly. I offices are common women and men—and . diseases. "the guardians' species is going to remain pure. of course. as you tell it. "As is fitting." "Won't they also supervise the nursing. that the offspring must be bom of those in their prime. or both. and everything else of the sort." he said." . deformed. think. along with other prizes and rewards." he said. the privilege of more abundant intercourse with the women must be given to those of the young who are good in war or elsewhere. they will take the offspring of the good and bring c them into the pen^^ to certain nurses who live apart in a certain sec- tion of the city. ? "Do you share the opinion that a woman's average. so that under this pretext the most children will also be sov^oi by such men. "I suppose certain subtle lots must be fabricated so that the ordi- nary man will blame chance rather than the rulers for each union. The number of the marriages we'll leave to the rulers in order that they may most nearly preserve the same number of men." 459 e 460 a he said. prime lasts. "Let's go through the next point we proposed. . and thus our city will. become neither big nor little. inventing every device so that none will recognize her own. on the e [ 139 ] . seeing to it that they suckle only a moderate time and that the wakeful watching and the rest of the labor are handed over to d wet nurses and governesses?" "It's an easy-going kind of child-bearing for the women guard* ians. certain festivals and sacrifices must be established by law at which we'll bring the brides and grooms together. and providing others who do have milk if the mothers themselves are insufficient? And won't they supervise the mothers themselves." "Quite so. taking into consideration wars. We said." "Right. leading the mothers to the pen when they are full with milk. won't they be taken over by the purpose—men or women." b "And as the offspring are officers established for this bom. within the limits of the possible. for preto sumably the "Yes." "So. they will hide away in is and any of the others bom an unspeakable and unseen place." "Right. And those of the worse. twenty years and a man's thifrty?" "Which years?" he said.Book V I 459a-460e socbates/glaucon "So then. "And.

he will call the males sons and the females daughters. "And the same law applies. if a man who is older than this. an unauthorized and unconsecrated child. as for the women. "this is the prime of body and prudence for "Then. engages in reproduction for the commonwealth. For he begets for the city a child that." I said. as we were just saying. except with a daughter. if "when a man to beget touches a woman of that age still of the age a ruler has not united them. This child is bom. "But how will they distinguish one another's fathers and daughters and the others you just mentioned?"^'' e "Not at all. The law will grant [ 140 ] . or younger. to deal with it on the understanding that there's to be no rearing for such a child. and in the seventh. and the whole city ofevery marriage to the effect that ever better and more beneficial offspring may come from good and beneficial men. a mother. beginning from the time when he passes his swiftest prime at running. priests." c "Quite right. if it escapes notice will come into being without being born under the protection of the fer at b and prayers which priestesses. and they in their turn will call his group grandfathers and grandmothers. and in the same way. "beginning with her twentieth year. "But of all the children born in the tenth month. We'll say he's imposing a bastard. Thus. of course." course." "That is certainly a sensible statement. on the city." he said." he said. and a man." I said." "Right. and those who were born at the same time their mothers and fathers were procreating they will call sisters and brothers.:OCBATES/GLAUCON THE REPUBLIC i60 e "A Woman. and they will call him father. rather. leave them free to have intercourse with whomsoever they wish. fifth year. they won't touch one another. bears for the city up to her fortieth. fpom the day a man becomes a bridegroom. begets for the city up to his fifty. and. "Now I suppose that when the women and the men are beyond the age of procreation. the children of their daughters and the ancestors of their d mother. if one should force its way." 461 a "Of both. and." I said. he will call their offspring grandchildren. we will. if one should be conceived. and all this only after they have been told to be especially careful never to let even a single foetus see the light of day." he said." he said. except with a son and a father and the descendants of the one and the ancestors of the other. we shall say that it's a fault neither holy nor just. under cover of darkness in the company of terrible incontisacrifices nence.

"That's entirely certain." he said. being. "But the privacy of such things dissolves when some are over- whelmed and others overjoyed by the same and those within the city?" things happening to the city c "Of course. And does the same argument hold for any other part of a human both when it is afflicted by pain and when eased by pleasure?" [ 141 ] . That it is for the guardians of your city rest of the regime and by far both consistent with the best. that city in which most say 'my own' and 'not my own' about the same thing. and all of it is in pain as a whole along with the afflicted part. must next be assured by the argu- ment.Book V 1 460e-462d socrates/glaucon that brothers and sisters Hve together if the lot falls out that way and 461 e "=^' the Pythia concurs. "Isn't the first step toward agreement for us to ask ourselves what we that good aiming can say is the greatest good in the organization of a city and what the greatest at which the legislator must set down the laws evil. said. b we don't. er. presumably the entire community that community tying the body together with the soul in a single arrangement under the ruler within it is aware of the fact. the is community of women and children of this kind. "Have we any greater evil for a city than what splits it and makes it many instead of one? Or a greater good than what binds it together and makes it one?" "No." he "So. own' at the same time 'somebody else's?" my and "Entirely so. when one of us wounds a finger. Glaucon." it "Doesn't the community of pleasure and pain bind togeth- when to the greatest extent possible at the all the citizens alike rejoice " and are pained same comings " into being and perishings? it. then. "Quite right. he said. — — . and — — d it is in this sense we say that this human being has a pain in his finger. evil?" "By all means. Or what shall we do?" 462 a by Zeus. the best governed city? "By far. and then to consider whether what we have just described harmonizes with the track of the good for us and not with that of the "That. and in the same way." "Then is that city best governed which is most like a single human being? For example." he said." "Is. " "Doesn't that sort of thing happen phrases as 'my own' and not similarly with respect to when they don't utter such in the city.

" best regime is "I suppose. "and consider in it the things agreed upon by the argument. wiiat do the rulers call one another?" "Fellow rulers." he said. "What about this? There are presumably both rulers and a people in other cities as well as in this one. and speak of him as such. "And what about ours?" "Fellow guardians. as to what you ask. "if it has good laws. "And what do they call the people?" "Wage givers and supporters. doesj" greater extent. "And. that when one of its citizens suffers anything at all. in addition to does it say the rulers are?" b "Saviors and auxiliaries."^^ "And what about citizens." call one another citizens?" "And in addition to citizens." cities call the people?" he said. the people in our city? What." he said." "It must be high time for us to go back to our city. what does the people call the rulers in the other cities?" "In the many." "Doesn't he hold the one "That's who is his kin to be his own. either good or bad. the city with the most like such a human being." There are." "Necessarily. masters. or whether some other city does to a "Yes." "And what do the rulers in the other "Slaves.glaucon/socratEs the republic it ^Q2 d e he said. "Then do all of them "Of course. such a city will most of all say that the affected part is its own." "We 463 a have to." in the "What about your guardians? Would any one of them be him as such?" habit of holding one of his fellow guardians to be an outsider or address [ 142 ] . then." he said. while the outsider he does not hold to be his own?" what he does. and see whether this city possesses them most." he said." "Can you say whether any of the rulers in the other cities is in the habit of addressing one of his fellow rulers as his kin and another as an "And outsider?"23 "Many do c so. in those with a democracy. and all will share in the joy or the pain. that very name: rulers." I said.

nor any possession. since a man would do h ^^^ "^ither holy nor just if he did anything other than this? Will th saymgs * fi-om the mouths of your citizens ring in the ears of the hu^ ^^^ ^" their earliest age. "And. most of all." ^ ^ "Quite so. "With everyone he happen "^^^t' he'll hold that he's meeting a brother. without deeds. ^ *^'* g°od to our city. likening the good governing" ^ body's relation to the pain and pleasure of one of *° ^ * " its "And what we agreed was right. Instead they must get their 1' ru [ 143 ] . or a sister. "But we further agreed that the community of pain A P ^^^"^^ ^^ the greatest good for a city. the names of kinsh "^ "Therefore in this city more than any other wh ^^ doing well or badly." ^ ^" ^^^ ' i I • "Won't our citizens more than others have the sam tkcommon. or will there be others about fathers— V. then.Book V / 462d-464c glaucon/socrati he said. which is that very thing they will name 'my ow 'P a"^^" having that in common." he said. we also agree with what went befor P ^^ ^^^^ saying." he said." he said. that there mustn't be private 4 house f iT^ "^^ ™' ^ land." he said. my own' affairs are doing well or badly. it will be these sayings. "The community of children and women amone th auxiliaries has therefore turned out to be the cause of the Pr^a? ." he said.^^ "S "*'' and having to obey them—under pain of not parents ^" 8^^" stead with gods or human beings." i _ 463 relatives?" "No. "It would b ^^ulous if they only mouthed." "Very true. of course." I said. they will utter in accord the phra i^^"*®'^"® ^ ^^ used just now. or a daughter or their descendants or ancestors' " ^ "What you say is very fine. "^^ver one points out to them as fathers—and the other "Not at all." "Is the cause of this— in addition to the rest of tK o^ganization—the community of women and children amone th guardians?" ^ "Certainly. "but tell me th' ^* ^"^^ the names of kinship you set down in the laws for ^ th ^^ ^^^^ *^ doing of all the actions that go with the names-with f Th * ^^^' law prescribes about shame before fathers. will they thus more than others hav^ ^ community of pain and pleasure?" "Far more than others. and about . "Weren't we saying that close on the conviction e phrase follows a community of pleasures and pains?" "And we were right to say so. or a father "^^"^^''' or a son.

thus imposing on them the necessity of taking care of their bodies. private and griefs of things that are private? with one conviction about what's their own." "And. and use it up in common all they are really going to be guardians. "And what about this? Won't lawsuits and complaints against one another virtually vanish from basis they will then among them thanks is to their possessing nothing private but the body." he said." "And further. others as brothers. I suppose." "Right. For we'll surely say that it is fine and just for men to take care of their own defense against others of the same age. " "Entirely so." "Plainly. as a result of the laws. fear and shame: shame preventing h him from laying hands as on parents. " "Right. "it's be rid of factions." he said. "Most certainly. and relatives? "Yes. to the limit of the possi- ble. further.socbates/glaucon the REPUBLIq as 464 c the others. they are affected alike by pain and pleasure. quite necessary that they dren. together. "So. as said to I am saying. fear that the others will come to the aid of the man who turns out. an older man will be charged with ruling and punishing all the younger ones. another being separate in his own house pleasures with separate women and introducing Rather." he said." I said. if a wage for guarding. live in peace with one respects?" [ 144 ] . straining toward the same thing. doesn't what was giving the it said before and what's being not to the now form them into true guardians still more and cause them draw the city apart by not all name 'my own' thing. "in that. he would presumably " in this way and be less likely to get into bigger quarrels. And he won't. there would justly be no suits for assault or insult among them. dishonor one in any other way. and others as fathers." he said. but different men giving to different things —one same drag- man ging off to his own house whatever he can children. For there are two sufficient guardians hindering him. men. if a man's spiritedness satisfy it is aroused against someone. get his hands on apart from d the others." "Further. 465 a "This law is also right. unless rulers command it. will the all " suffers it. while the rest in common? On this be free from faction." "So it "Then another in he said. some as sons. it's not likely that a younger man will ever attempt to assault or strike an older one. to the extent at any rate that chil- e human beings divide into factions over the possession of money.

that if this should happen to come up it we would consider it later." "Yes. for at whom it's possible to have what belongs to the citizens. What and how they suffer from these things. the of our auxiliaries victors." he said." he said. but that now we were making the guardians guardians and the city as happy as we could. "Do you remember." he if said. but we were some point. life "Well. if a foolish adolescent opinion about happiness [ 145] . ignoble. making debts and repudiating want and grief they have in rearing children them." I said. steady. and they get prizes from their city while they live and e when they die receive a worthy burial. and they are crowned with support and everything else necessary to life—both they themselves and their children as well. of the evils of which they I hesitate to mention the pettiest all would be rid: poor men flattering rich.^^ The victory they win is the preservation of the whole city. is perfectly plain. "Moreover." "That's very fine. "even to a blind man. and (as we assert) best life won't satisfy him.Book V / 464c-466b socrates/glaucon "Very much so. that if the guardian attempts to become happy in such a way that he is no longer a guardian. the c and making money for the necessary support of the household. 466 a have nothing? We said. Their victory is not only fairer but the public support more complete. not looking exclusively to one group in piness. my friend. "that previously an argument— don't know whose—reproached us with not making the guardians happy. is now appears far finer and it better than that of the Olympic some way appear comparable to there any risk that will in that of the shoemakers or any other h craftsmen or to that of the farmers?" "Not in my opinion. and such a moderate." d "So they'll be rid of all this and live a life more blessed than that most blessed one the Olympic victors live. doing all sorts of things to provide for the allowances that they turn over to the women and the domestics to manage. as I said there. it is plain. I believe. they. it is just to say here too. but. then." "In what way?" "Surely the Olympic victors are considered of happy for a small part what belongs to these is men." 465 b "Since they are free from faction among themselves." "Surely not." "I and forming it for hap- remember. there won't ever be any danger that the rest of the city will split into factions against these guardians or one another." he said. and not worth mentioning." "Because of their unseemliness.

But. Besides seeing. children." "Must they be more careful than the guardians in educating their children by experience and observation of their duties?" "That would be quite ridiculous." said. and that both when they are staying in the city and going out to war. 466 c gets hold of him. "But do you believe that one must provide for the avoidance of all risks?" "Not at all. there's recover. [ 146 ] ." I said. "I suppose it's plain how they'll make war. every animal fights exceptionally hard in the presb ence of its offspring. and that in doing this they'll do what's best and nothing contrary to the nature of the female in her relationship with the male. as it is among other animals. Or haven't you noticed in the other arts that." he said." no small risk that in defeats." "What you say first is true. "How?" he "That they'll said.' "If he follows I my advice." he said. for example. as to war. "Then. "doesn't it remain to determine whether after all it is possible. that this community come into being among human beings too. and.socbates/glaucon the REPUBLJq." he said. potters' sons look on as helpers for a long time before putting their hands to the craft when they are wheel?" "Quite so. it will drive him to appropriate everything in the city with his power. and care for their fathers and mothers. so that. "as and insofar as possible have everything in every way in common. nothing contrary to the natural community of the two with each other?" do accept it. they must guard and hunt together like dogs^ "Then. "in mentioning what I was "I e going to take up. "And further." d we've described it. munity of the women with the men in education. they'll carry all out their campaigns in lead the hardy children to the war. they will lose the children along with themselves and make it impossible even for the rest of the city to "That's so. and guarding the rest of the citizens. they'll help out and serve in the whole business of war. and he'll learn that Hesiod was really wise when he said "^^ that somehow 'the half is more than the whole. like the children of the other craftsmen. "he'll stay in this life." "For. Socrates. which are of course likely in war. besides." common." I said. and in what way it is possible?" "You were just ahead of me. do you accept the coni." he said." I said." "And what about this? Since risks must presumably be run. they can see what they'll have to do in their 467 a grown up.

thing will be "Yes. "leaves the ranks or throws away his arms." many things for many men also turn out contrary "Indeed. will make the surest escape is to safety following older leaders." "But do you suppose it makes only a small difference." "How do you mean?" he said." "If [ 147 ] ." he said. they'll equipped with wings right away as they can fly and get away." we further contrive something for their security. if need be. "they'll presumably set over them not the most ordinary men but those adequate by experience and age to be leaders and tutors ." I "and when they've been taught how to ride. not spirited and combative ones."^^ "Yes." "Then must be the beginning. "what you say right. my friend. they must be led to the spectacle on horses. insofar as is hud man. Won't it?" "In the first place. "Then they'll lead them to the ones and beware of the others. and one not worth a risk. in view of such things. to their opinions." he said." I said. fairest look at their own work and. "won't their fathers." "Right. making the children spectators of war." "Now what looks to about the business of war?" I said. or does anything of the sort because of cowardice." one of them. but the swiftest and most easily reined.Book V / 466c-468a glaucon/socrates shouldn't cessful?" it be those from which they will emerge better men when sue- 467 "Plainly. Thus they will get the. "what that is." I said. have to be if need be. e "At the earliest possible age. be not ignorant but knowledgeable about all the campaigns that are risky and all that are not?" "It's likely." I said." "And as rulers. so that. said. whether children who are to be men skilled in war look on the business of c war or not?" "No." "In soldiers my me opinion." "But. And." "Therefore. it does this if make a difference for what you are talking about. we'll say. every- fine. little children. "How must your behave toward one another and the enemies? Is the way it right or not?" 468 c he said. they must be mounted on horses. that's proper. mustn't he be demoted to craftsman or farmer?" "Just tell me.

[ 148 ] . sacrifices "Therefore we'll believe Homer in this at least." this? Must his right hand be shaken?" this I said." I said." "And what about "That too." "Further." "But I suppose. "you wouldn't go so far as to accept c "What?" "That he kiss and be kissed by each." "All right." he said." has proved best and earned a good reputation must first be crowned by each of those who made the campaign with him. when he earned a good reputation in the war. youths and boys in turn?" "Is it or isn't it your opinion that the man who "It surely is. besides that.' as though the honor appropriate for a man who is in the bloom of youth and courageous is that by which he will at the same time be d honored and increase his strength. and that he will frequently be chosen for that sort of thing in preference to the others. according to Homer too." he said. As for those who die on a campaign." "Most of all." "Won't we believe Hesiod that when any of that class die. "And I add to the law that as long as they are on that campaign no one whom he wants to kiss be permitted to refuse. he would be more eager to win the rewards of valor. with hymns and the things we were mentioning just now and." he said." further opinion. with 'seats and meats and full cups.glaucon/socbates THE REPUBLlp certainly. For Homer said that Ajax." "Yes." I said. insofar as they e have shown themselves to be good.'29 so that we'll give the good men and women what is conducive to their training at the same time as honoring them. so that the most children will be born of such a man. has already been said. won't we first say that the man who died in earning a good reputation is a member of the golden class?"3<* "Most of all." 468 a "Most "And the man who's taken ahve by the enemy." he said. "That marriages will be more readily available for a man who's good than for the others. it's just to honor in such ways whoever is good among the young. so that if a man happens to love someone. to use their catch as they wish?" h "Exactly. "is quite fine. "And at and all such occasions we'll honor the good.''^^ "Quite right." "What you say. won't we give him as a gift to those who took him. either male or female. "we did say that." "Fine. 'received as prize the whole backbone.

we surely won't bring the arms to the temples as [ 149 ] ." "And for the rest of time well care for their tombs and worship at them as at those of demons. therefore." "Doesn't it seem illiberal and greedy to plunder a corpse. and the mark of a small. well aware of the danger of enslavement at the hands of the barbarians?" "Sparing them." he said. pretext for cowards not to attack the man who's still fighting.Book V / 468a-469e socjiATEs/GLAucof They become holy demons dwelling on earth." he said. guardians of humans endowed with speech?"^! 469 "We certainly will believe him. Good. as though they were doing something necessary in poking around the dead. therefore. "And what about this? How will our soldiers deal with enemies?" "In what respect?" "First." he said." he said. not even allow another city to do it but make it a habit to spare the Greek stock." "Of course we shall." he said." and divine beings should be buried and with what distinction." "What about this?" I said. that they not themselves possess a Greek as slave. therefore. womanish mind to hold the enemy to be the body of the dead enemy who's flown away and left behind that with which he fought? Or do you suppose that the men who do this are any different from the dogs who are harsh with the stones thrown at them but don't touch the one who is throwing them?" "Not in the least. while many an army before now has been lost as a consequence of this plundering?" "Quite so. or that they. further. "They must. of the god hovi? the demonic he indicates. leave off stripping corpses and preventing their recovery?" "Yes indeed." "And. and give the same advice to the other Greeks?" "At any rate in that way they would be more inclined to turn to the barbarians and keep off one another." "And. that Greek cities enslave Greeks. and we'll bury them as "We'll inquire. And we'll make the same conventions for any one of those who have been judged exceptionally good in life when dying of old age or in some other way. "they must. "When they win. is it a fine practice to strip the dead of anything more than their arms? Or doesn't it provide a "Most certainly. "is wholly and entirely superior. warders-off of evil. as to enslavement: which seems just." "That is only just. by Zeus. insofar as possible.

Rather well be afraid would be defilement to bring such things from our kin to a temple." he said. what is one's own and akin. "Won't the city you are founding [ 150 ] . of course." I said. and this kind of hatred must be called "What you're saying. while when Greeks do any such thing to Greeks. you want me to tell you why?" "Certainly." "This frame of mind." he said. For. war to the hatred of "It appears to me that just as the alien. I assert that the Greek stock is with respect to itself its own and akin. for one. But it seems to be moderate for the victors to take away the harvest of the vanquished." he said. but in this case Greece is sick and factious." c he said." "Well. otherwise. "And what about ravaging the Greek countryside and burning houses? What sort of thing will your soldiers do to the enemies?" "I would be glad." faction. "Now observe. on the one hand. especially those of the Greeks." "Yes. and this hatred must be called war." he said. "agree to consider it in that way. and to have the frame of mind of men who will be reconciled and not always be at war. and what is alien. they would never have dared to ravage their nurse and mother. "to hear you present your opinion. that e I said.Xa«ATEs/GLAUCON THEREPUBLlf) we care at it 69 e 70 a votive offerings. if each side wastes the fields and burns the houses of the others." "Now see whether what I say next is also to the point." "Then when Greeks fight with barbarians and barbarians with Greeks. foreign and alien. we'll say that they are by nature friends. with respect to the barbaric. The two things I mean are. Now the name faction is applied to the hatred of one's own. in h my opinion." he said. and do do neither of these things. "in what is nowadays understood to be wherever such a thing occurs and a city is split. and foreign. so two things also exist and the names apply to differences in these two. on the other." "I." d faction." "Now what be Greek?" about this?" I said. "that is fine." other. "is certainly not off the point. war and faction. "they'll but they'll take away the year's harvest. well assert they are at war and are enemies^^ by nature. "belongs to far tamer men than the. the god should say otherwise. it . if all about a the good v\rill of the other Greeks.seems that the faction is a wicked thing and that the members of neither side are lovers of their city." two different names are used. unless." "Quite right.

and how is it ever possible? I see that." he said." he said." "Won't they consider differences with Greeks ^their kin—to be faction and not even use the name war?" "And won't they be — 471 a "Of course. you would never remember what you previously set aside in order to say all this. shall we also give this law to the guardians—neither waste countryside nor bum I houses?" said." "I for one. will be reconciled. fathers. not enemies. if it should come into being. Socrates." lovers of the Greeks? Won't they consider Greece their own and hold the common holy places along with the other Greeks?" "Very much so. Is it possible for this regime to come into being." "And they will have their differences like men who." he said. they won't be willing to ravage lands or tear friendly." "So. women. But. And I can tell things that you leave out—namely. b and children—but that there are always a few enemies who are to blame for the differences. as Greeks." "That's what they'll do. on all these grounds. after all.Book V / 469e-471d glaucon/socrates must be. c this and what went before are one were to allow you to speak about this sort of thing." "Then they'll correct^^ their opponents in a kindly way. that they would be best at fighting their enemies too because they would least desert one another." "Most certainly. "Then won't they be good and tame?" "It 470 e "Very much so. think that if d [ 151 ] . these men who recognize each other as brothers. "agree that our citizens must behave this way toward their opponents. nor will they agree that in any city all are their enemies—men. and toward the barbarians they must behave as the Greeks do now toward one another. acting as correctors. either stationed in the line itseff." he "And fine. And if the females join in the campaign too. "Therefore. And. or in the rear. and sons and who call upon each other using these names. not punishing them with a view to slavery or destruction. everything would be good for the city in which it came into being. they won't ravage Greece or bum houses. since the many are and they'll keep up the quarrel until those to blame are compelled to pay the penalty by the blameless ones who are suffering. to frighten the enemies and in case there should ever be any need of help—I know that with all this they would be un- "Let it be given. down houses.

in their turns. and don't waste time. looking ofi" at what their relationships to happiness and its opposite appear to us to be. fitting for me to hesitate and be afraid to speak and undertake to consider so paradoxical an argument. it should. "But what of it?" "Nothing. let's now only try to pgj. the third wave. "you have. after all. But if we find out what justice is like. by Zeus. for injustice and the most unjust man. we would also be compelled to agree in our own cases that the man who is most like them will have the portion most like theirs. and. as it were. I don't. will we also insist that the just man must not differ at all from justice itself but in every way be such as it is? Or will we be content if he is nearest to it and participates in it more than the others?" "We'll be content with that. "the less we'll let you off this regime to come iiito being. Thus. "first it should be recalled that we got to this point while seeking what justice and injustice are like. dismissing all 472 a "All of a sudden." "Yes. "Then. as pattern in speech of a good city?" we assert. for the sake of a pattern.34 Perhaps you don't know that when I've hardly escaped the two waves you're now bringing the biggest and most difficult." he said. and what he would be like once come into being. and don't talk any suade ourselves that the rest." is like. "It was." "The more you say such b things. and you have no sympathy for me and my loitering. "that we were d and for the perfectly just man. and are all I see all the good things that they would have at home out in your account." from telling how it is possible for he said. therefore.glaucon/socrates the And left REPUBLTp 471 d e beatable." it more about it.^s When you see and hear it." he said. if he should come into being." I said. We were not seeking them for the sake of proving that seeking both for what justice by itself come into being. I said. Take it that I agree that there would be if this these things and countless others regime should come into being." c "Then. but can't prove that it's also possible that such a man come e into being?" "No." "What you say is true. you'll be quite sympathetic. also making a [ 152 ] . assaulted my argument. "Do you suppose a painter is any less good who draws a pattern of what the fairest hiiman being would be like and renders everything in it's possible for these things to the picture adequately." he said. what about this? Weren't we. is possible and how it is possible." I said. recognizing that it was. rather." he said. So speak.

and thereb^ V governed in this way. and with what smallest^ \^^^^ *^^"^ ^*^"™ ^^'"^ "^^^'^^^'^^^^^^ °"^' if not. too.What points? "Can anything be done as it is said? Or '^ ** nature of acting to attain to less truth than speaking. nor I think for human kind r. even "^^ "'^^"^^ ^^ ^^^ ^ig' wave. while the many natures now making their way to eith ^""^^P^rt from the other are by necessity excluded. then. "Well. we power —a city would come I said." ^'' ^*^"'* ^^^ ^^ must try to s V ""* *"*^ demonstrate what is badly done in cities today. that's the truth of it." called kings I said. numbe " to this " manner of re ^" smallest in "That's entirely certain. but possibl^-we can." he said." he said." ." "coming to wh be said regardless." ^^^^"^ ^^^^ uproarious repute. then. it's going to drown me in laughter and ill if going to say. in be transformed.BookV 1 471d-473d glaucon/socrate "Certainly. say that we've T^^ ^^ *^ possibility of these things coming into being on which you content "I if it turns out this way? I." "with one change an easy one. show however. for would. two. ^""^^ be content. "Unless." i 5^ i « you I must also strive to prove how and under '^ *^^" **^ gratify h me the same points ^o^. he said. the fewest in "So. a small or that it would "What change?" he "Well here gestwave. ^ ^"^^ *^^ ^'*'^^' "^^ "''*' "«>" Will the regime we have "the philosophers rul [ 153] . my nart ^^' *"?f." mv nJ^"Pmion. and political power and philosophy coincidese ^^^l^^ ^^™^ V^^^^. "Well. and chiefs genuinely and ade ^ ^^ kings or those now philosophize. as seems." "Do you suppose as the that what we say it is is anv t ^'^^ 1 our not being able to prove that possible ^? ^^^ **^""<^ one in speech?" ^^ account of a city the same "Surely not." he said. "Then don't compel me necessarily to " • 473 being in every way in deed as we described j^^^^^"* '* *^ coming into ^^ ^^^^^^^ ^"* ^ ^^ are able to find that a city could be governed in a ^^^^ closely approximating what has been said. But it said. if not. even if s omeone doesn't think so? Do you agree that it's so or not?" "I do agree. I said.r ** condition it would be most possible.. I shall am. Consider what I am ^ "Speak. there is no rest f ^"^ dear Glaucon." he it said.'^^ proof. next. and. grant ' "^"^^ f^'.

inclu| voluil thougl [ 154 ] ." he said. one will be able to defend oneself. and perhaps I would answer you more suitably than ecomef another. Now that it's said. "Will you need to be reminded. try to show the reatefl (lore ofg disbelievers that it is as you say." he said. c and i '4 tvisdom MrpS showing that it is by nature fitting for them both to engage in philosophy and to lead a city. Or don't you people behave that way with the fair? You praise the boy "It said. ^ not ordinary ones. if it is rightly said of him. "Socrates. It's necessary. and stripped jpressiqi for action. "Isn't it Ana you." he said." '4 a said." would be high time. insofar as was causing is 'ki^ my hesitation to speak: seeing how very paradoxical it would be to say^ dark^] For it is hard to see that in no other city would there be private or| ^^^ tK| what for so long brk of i and see the hght of the public happiness. "that's responsible for this happening to '^ sanig| h retextWl me?" "And it's a fine thing I'm doing. I won't betray you. Thus. described in speech ever forth from nature. to distinguish for whom we iometi^ t mean when we dare to assert the philosophers must rule. e| forth adequately. will on the spot throw off their clothes." desir^ was proper for another. to say what you're saying." I said. and word." "Come. you can believe that very many men. And so. what a phrase and argument you have let'd easil^ burst out. This is REPUBLlc|)fcvi possi-iti^ a sal '3 e now ble. if we are somehow going them to get away from the men you speak of. when they have come plainly to light.a J And he scorn. "But no. now. with the assurance of such support." whaf^ say tl| d "Lead. follow me here. all seem worthy of attention and delight." I "But it's not proper for an erotic man to forget that all boys in the bloom of youth in one way or another put their sting in an erotic lover of boys and arouse him. but must cherish all of it?" "I need reminding." he said. "especially since you offer so great an "4 alliance. and I'll defend you with what I can." "It must be tried. and for the rest not to engage in philosophy and to follow the leader. you'll really pay the penalty in e" do. If you don't defend yourself with speech and get away. if we are somehow or other "It to set it ing. I can provide good will and encouragement. "to distinguish them.rBATES/cLAUCON THE come sun. in my opinion. "or do you remember that when we say a man loves something." I said." "If yS each. "For I scarcely understand. taking hold of whatever weapon falls under the hand of i>uth. he mustn't show a love for one part of it and not for another. Glaucon. as it seems. run full speed at you to do wonderful deeds." I said.

" "But the one who is willing to taste every kind of learning with and who approaches learning with delight. or one part of and not another?" "All." h "Then it affirm this or something. we'll be right in denying it. 'Then you'll have many strange ones. and on every "If pretext?" "Indeed. "I agree for the sake of the argument. therefore." 475 a you want to point to me while you speak about what erotic men do. 'cute'. For all the lovers of sights are in my opinion what they are because they enjoy learning. and isn't a lover of food but a bad eater. but of all of Irue. and is insatiable. won't we?" And Glaucon said. we shall justly assert to be a philosopher." "And further. man "And gusto." he said. if they can't become generals. doesn't desire food. you people take advantage of every excuse and employ any expression so as to reject none of those who glow with the bloom of youth.' do you suppose their very name is the work of anyone other than a lover who renders sallowness endearing and easily puts up with it if it accompanies the bloom of youth? And. those who would never be willing to go voluntarily to a discussion d and such occupations but who—just as though they had hired out their ears for hearing—run around to every [ 155 ] . they do." he said. the dark look 'manly'. "Don't you see wine-lovers doing the same thing? Do they delight in every kind of wine." c and not. are lieutenants.^'^ and if they can't be honored by greater and more august men.Book V / 473e-475d socrates/glaucon with a snub nose by calling him say is 'kingly'. will we assert that deny it: when we say a man is a desirer of he desires all of that form. just as we who's finicky about his food isn't hungry." "And what about this?" I said. is a desirer of it?" "We'll deny. "Won't we also then assert that the philosopher wisdom. and the white are 'children of gods. I suppose you see that lovers of honor." "That's certainly the case. and the lovers of hearing would be some of the strangest to include among philosophers. the hook-nose of another you 474 d e and the boy between these two is 'well proportioned'. especially when he's young and doesn't yet have an account of what's useful say that the is a lover of learning or a philosopher.' And as for the 'honey-colored. not of one part and not another. that the one who's finicky about his learning. are content to be honored by lesser and more ordinary men because they are desirers of honor as a whole. in a word.

on the one hand." "Wouldn't." "How do you mean? he said. and the practical men. "The lovers of hearing and the lovers of sights. bodies. On one side I put those of whom you were just speaking. "but they are like philosophers.glaucon/socrates the REPUBLIp at 475 d e chorus Will we say that the Dionysia." "Well. contrary d to this." "What?" "Since fair is the opposite of ugly. but rather the thing itself to which it is like? "I. it?" he said. good and bad. he said. in your opinion. those " who are able to approach the c see it by "Indeed they would. they are two. "is right. But you. those whom the argument concerns." b "The same argument also applies then to justice and injustice. "would say that a man who does that " " — someone leads him to the dreams. each is an apparitional many. living in a dream or is he awake? Consider it. believes that of it there is something fair itself and is able to catch sight both of it and what participates in it." he said." "And what about the man who. 38 all these men and other learners of such things and the petty arts are philosophers?" "Not at all." I said." "Since they are two. now." I said. but. "The lovers of the that's right. and all the forms. and one another. fair itself and "is certainly so." "Is the itself be rare? fair things man who is holds that there are itself but doesn't hold that there beauty and who. on the other hand. isn't able to follow is he." he said. and doesn't believe that what participates is [ 156 ] ." "Who do you "And "It say are the true ones?" sight of the truth." said. "surely delight in fair sounds and colors and shapes and all that craft makes from such things." 476 a "Of course. on the other. at least. "What you say." I said. whether one is asleep or awake. the lovers of sights. but their thought is unable to see and " " " delight in the nature of the fair itself "That. "this is how I separate them out. consist in believing a likeness of something to be not a likeness. isn't each also one? "That is so as well. the lovers of arts. I sup- pose. "But how do you mean tell wouldn't be at all easy to someone else. will grant me this." he I said. missing none in the cities or the villages. whom alone one could rightly call philosophers. Doesn't dreaming. each is itself one. by showing up everywhere in a community with actions. if knowledge of it.

because he knows." he said.Book V I 475d-477b socrates/glaucon what participates—is he." "What if the man of whom we say that he opines but doesn't know. Or do you want us to question him in this way—^saying that if he does know something." "Then opinion Thats is is dependent on one thing and knowledge on its another. "Most adequate. each according to so. "Come. is knowledge." "Since knowledge depended on what b "Do we say opinion is something?" "Of course. "Wouldn't we be right in saying that this man's thought. but that we would be delighted to see he knows something—but tell us this: Does the man who knows. "Doesn't knowledge naturally depend on what that it to know of what is and how it is? However." he said. at least." is and ignorance necessarily on what is not. know something or nothing? You answer me on his behalf" "I'll answer. nor that it itself is is 476 d ing in a dream or e something that t^ or is not?" is. while the other's is opinion because he opines?" "Most certainly. many ways—that what t^ entirely. it's not begrudged him." is." "All right. in my opinion." he said. How could what t^ not be known at all?" "So. own power." "A power^^ different from knowledge or the same?" "Different. is is in every way unknowable?" should entirely knowable." "What distinction?" [ 157 ] . gets harsh with us and disputes the truth of what we say? Will we have some way to soothe and gently persuade him. then. mustn't we also seek something between ignorance and knowledge that depends on that which is in between. if there is in fact any such thing?" "Most certainly. "that he knows something. while hiding from him that he's not healthy?" "We surely have to have a way. in your opinion. we Now if there were something such as both to be and not to be. it's necessary to make this distinction first. and consider what we'll say to him. livhe awake?" "He's quite awake. do we have an adequate grasp of the fact— even "Is it "That consider 477 a if it in and what in no way is." itself. would be between. wouldn't it lie between what purely and simply t^ and what in no way is?" it "Yes.

if perchance you understand the form of which \ wish to speak. I call the same power. opines. or in what class do you put it?" "In this one." he doesn't said." "But just a little while ago you agreed that knowledge and opinion are not the same. it is different. In a power I see no color or powers are a certain of what we class of beings "We d e shape or anything of the sort such as I see in many other things to which I look when I distinguish one thing from another for myself. naturally dependent on different things?" "Necessarily." is. What about you? What do you do?" "The same. "For that by which we are capable of opining is nothing other than opinion. to know of what "While opinion." he said. "and we is different from knowledge. "Now." said. it's impossible." he said. we say." is "Since each capable of something different. and that which depends on something else and accomplishes something else. you best of men. With a power I look only to this—on what it depends and what it accomplishes. Yes. "could make mistakes I the any intelligent man count same as that which does?" plainly agree that opinion that which 478 a "Firie. of which we are capable else is capable of whatever it is capable.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLjq will assert that 477 c by means and also everything are capable." he said. "If different powers are naturally dependent on different things and [ 158 ] . For example. I call a different power. come back here to knowledge again. Do you say it's some kind of power." he said. and that which depends on the same thing and accomplishes the same thing." "I do understand. therefore. and it is on this basis that I come to call each of the powers a power. or shall we refer it to some other form?" "Not at all. "as the most vigorous of all powers." "The same thing that knowledge knows? And will the knowable and the opinable be the same? Or is that impossible?" "On the basis of what's been agreed to. are they." "Yes." is that "Knowledge is presumably dependent on what it is and how it is?" "Yes." he said." "And what about opinion? Is it among the powers." "How. I say sight and hearing are powers. "Now listen to how they look to me.

therefore. and "Opinion." "Very much so. opines some one thing?" "Yes." "Opinion. it doesn't. would be neither ignorance nor knowledge?" "It doesn't "Is it." beyond these." addressed as some one thing but rather nothing at c to that "To that which is not. surpassing either knowledge in clarity or ignorance in obscurity?" "No." he said. we were compelled which is." it within the limits set by these two?" d "Opinion. different. therefore." [ 159 ] . and that neither knowledge nor ignorance will depend on it. then wouldn't something other than that be opinable?" "Yes." lie "look darker than knowledge to you and brighter than ignorance?" he said. then on this basis it's not admissible that the knowable and the opinable be the same.Book V I 477c-478d glaucon/socrates both are powers—opinion and knowledge and each is." "Then does it opine what is not? Or is it also impossible to opine what is not? Think about it. that which "Certainly." I said. "And does "Yes." "Weren't as we saying before that is if something should come to light purely and simply not at the same time. but that which in its turn comes to light between ignorance and knowledge?" is what and what is "Right. is knowable. it is neither. that between them. but to opine nothing?" "No. it's impossible. would be between the two." is what has come to light. to assign ignorance. it lies between that which and that which in every way is not." "Right. then." — 478 h which what is. seem so." is not could not with any correctness be all. Doesn't the man who opines refer his opin"If is ion to something? Or is it possible to opine. it would be something other." "And now light it is just that which we call opinion that has come to "Yes. knowledge. as we say." "The man who opines." "But further." "That's entirely certain. therefore. "Does opinion. opines neither that which not." is nor that which is "No.

I shall say. that the many beliefs*' of the many about what's fair and about the other things roll around*^ somewhere between not-being and being purely and simply." "Now. "but it's necessary that they look all somehow both and ugly. any that won't look unjust? And of the holy." [ 160 ] . or as both or neither. of these many fair things. if it comes to light. light and heavy—will they be addressed by these names any more than by the opposites of these names?" "No. and him answer—that good man who doesn't believe that there is anything fair in itself and an idea of the beautiful itself. 479 a let let him tell me.' we'll say. as it seems.*" For the manys are also ambiguous." the many the others you ask about.SOCRATES /glaucon THE REPUBLiQ it 478 e ticipates in "Hence. Isn't that so?" "Yes. with this taken for granted. this lover of sights who can in no way endure it if anyone asserts the fair is one and the just is one and so on with the rest." "Yes. and so it is with "And what about than double?" "No." he said. then. and nothing brighter than being will come to light so that something could he more than it. the things that we would assert to be big and little." he said. "Or could you find a finer place to put them than between being and not to be? For presumably nothing darker than not -being will come to light so that something could not he more than it. which always stays the same in all respects. both in to he addressed as either purely can justly address it as the extremes and that which is — would remain for us to find what parand not to he—and could not correctly he and simply. as it seems. we between to that opinable. but does hold that there are many fair things. you best of men. "each will always have something of both." he said. it is." "Can you do anything with them?" I said. and it's not possible to think of them fixedly as either being or not being." "Very true. 'Now. about his hitting the bat—with what and on what he struck it. so that. "Then we have found." he said." doubles? Do they look any less half c d "And. any that won't look unholy?"" b fair "No. 'is there any that won't also look ugly? And of the just. thus assigning the extremes to the in which is in between." "Then is each of the several manys what one asserts it to be any more than it is not what one asserts it to be?" "They are like the ambiguous jokes at feasts. "and the children's riddle about the eunuch. we have found that.

" "Must we. "And what about those who look at each thing itself—at the things that are always the same in all respects? Won't we say that they know and don't opine?" "That too is necessary. and so on with all the rest. the wanderer between. seized by the power between.Book V I 478e-480a socrates/glaucon that. as for those who look at many fair things but don't see the fair itself and aren't even able to follow another who leads them to it. we do remember. if any such thing should come to must be called opinable but not knowable." he said. therefore." "And we agreed beforehand it 479 d Hght." "Won't we assert that these men delight in and love that on which knowledge depends. and many just things but not justice itself. e they opine." 480 a [ 161 ] . we'll assert that they opine all these things but know nothing of what "Yes. we did agree. "that is." he said. and the others that on which opinion depends? Or don't we remember that we were saying that they love and look at fair sounds and colors and such things but can't even endure the fact that the fair itself is something?" "Yes. if they are persuaded by me. call philosophers rather than lovers of opinion those who delight in each thing that is itself?" "That's entirely certain." "Necessarily. For it's not lawful to be harsh with what's true. will we strike a false note in calling them lovers of opinion rather than lovers of wisdom? And will they be very angry with us if we speak this way?" "No." "So." "And.


^^^ ^ "Perhaps." "What's after this for us?" he said." he said. it would have been better done if this were the only question that had to be treated. while those who are not able to do so but wander among what is many and varies in all ways are not philosophers. who the philosophers are and who the nonphilosophers has. in my opinion at least." he said.BOOK VI Glaucon. and there weren't many things left to treat for one who is going to see what the difference is between the just life and the unjust one." "And so." "It doesn't look like it. somehow been brought to light." I said. "whether it's a blind guardian ot a sharpsighted one who ought to keep watch over anything?" "Of course it's plain. "What else but what's next?" I said. "Still. "Those who look as if they're capable of guarding the laws and practices of cities should be established as guardians." I said. "But is it plain. with considerable effort. "How c [ 163 ] . which should be the leaders of a city?" b should we put it so as to speak sensibly?" he said. "through a somewhat lengthy argument. "that's because it could not easily have been done through a short one." I said. "Since philosophers are those who are able to grasp what is always the same in all respects." he said." "Right.

next consider whether who c are going to be such as we were necessary in addition that those saying have this further charac- teristic in their nature. it. just." he said." he said." "What you say is right. more honorable or more contemptible." I said. that false admit what's "It's but hate said." we were saying at the beginning of this argument. further. if any need to be given. driven by generation and de- agree to that. let's agree that they are always in them something of the being always and does not wander about. they love all of it and don't willingly let any part go. it is "Well." "Shall we set these men up as guardians rather than those who not only know what each thing is but also don't lack experience or fall short of the others in any other part of virtue?" "It would be strange to choose others. "if. For the very thing in which they would have the advantage is just about the most important. "that just like the lovers of honor and the erotic men we described before. these men 485 a don't lack the rest. I suppose. whether smaller or bigger. "It's likely. likely. then." he said. but also entirely necessary that a [ 164 ] ." "Yes. as painters do. then. they are completely unwilling to while cherishing the truth. between blind men and those men who are really deprived of the knowledge of what d each thing is. if we should come to an adequate agreement about that.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLIC 484 c "Well. and are hence unable—after looking off. those who have no clear pattern in the soul." "What?" "No taste for falsehood. by Zeus. And. toward what is truest. must be thoroughly understood." is. that is." "How b shall we do it?" let's "About philosophic natures. as their nature other leaders of cities than these. and good. that is love with that learning which discloses to cay. and lished?" as guardians to preserve those that are already estab- "No." "Then shouldn't we say how the same men will be able to possess these two distinct sets of qualities?" "Most first certainly. we'll also agree that the same men will be able to possess both and that there should be no "Well. "there isn't much difference." "And. does there seem to be any difference." he not only my friend. and ever referring to it and contemplating it as precisely as possible—to give laws about what is fine.

" "Therefore the man who is really a lover of learning must from youth on strive as intensely as possible for every kind of truth." "Of course he said." he said. Money and the great expense that accompanies it are pursued for the sake of things that any other man rather than this one is likely to take seriously." "So." he said. "That is most necessary." "Such a man is." . when it." [ 165 1 . further. "Now is it possible that the same nature be both a lover of wisdom and a lover of falsehood?" "In no way. further. "Won't such a man also beheve that death is not something terri- b bier "Not in the least. is always going to reach out for the whole and for everything divine and human." he said." "Very true." been channeled "Of course. strongly to d we surely know that when some one thing." "What?" "You mustn't For petty speech let its is of course most opposite to a soul that partaking in illiberality get by you unnoticed. "To an understanding endowed with magnificence^ and the contemplation of all time and all being. that's like 1 the soul itself that in someone they have flowed toward learning and all suppose they would be concerned with the pleasure of with respect to itself and would forsake those pleasures isn't come through the body—if he a counterfeit but a true e philosopher." "But." "And you too must of course you're going to judge also consider is something else when 486 a whether a nature philosophic or not." "Entirely so. they are therefore someone's desires incline weaker with respect to off in that other direc- the rest. "Now could you find anything more akin to wisdom than truth?" not.Book VI / 484c-486b socrates/glaucon man who by nature erotically disposed toward someone care everything related and akin to his boy/'^ is for 485 c "Right. moderate and in no way a lover of money. do you think it possible that human life seem anything great?" "Impossible." "That's so. like a stream that has tion.

" this out either. could become "What then? hard-bargainer or unjust?" "There isn't. you'll also take into consideration whether. it is both just and tame or hard to be a partner with and savage. a nature would not." | "Not in my opinion. from youth on." "Most c certainly. or a boaster. he does painfully. let us seek for an understanding endowed by nature with measure and charm. then. qualities that are in in your opinion. toiling without profit. besides the other things. as it seems. na '^ ticipate in true philosophy. or illiberal. or a coward. be possible he be not empty of d knowledge?" "Of course not. admit a forgetful soul into the ranks of those that are adequately philosophic." "And further. accomplishing little with much effort?" "That could not be. Or do you ever expect anyone would care sufficiently for a thing that." "Let us never." "Of course. gone through particular any way unnecessary and inconsequent to one [ 166 ] ." "And you won't leave "What?" "Whether he learns well or with difficulty. when you are considering whether a soul is philosophic or not." "Do you believe that is." e "What then? Have we." Is there | any way in which the orderly man. one whose nature grows by itself in such a way as to make it easily led to the idea of each thing "Of course." "Then. let us rather demand a soul with a memory. we would deny is graceless nature drawn in what has an unmusical and any direction other than that of want of that measure." "And what if he were able to preserve nothing of it being full of forgetfulness? Would what he learns." "Most certainly." "Further. I suppose. in our search."^ that truth is related to want of measure or to measure?" "To measure. don't you suppose he'll finally be compelled to hate both himself and an activity of this sort?" "Of course. when he does it.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLjI cowardly and illiberal 486 b ' "So. who isn't ^ a lover of money." "So.

Book VI / 486b-488a socrates/glaucon/adetmantus another in a soul that is going to partake adequately and perfectly in 486 e what is?" "They he said. "are perfected by education and age." 487 a b c d — useless to the cities. "I suppose. And just as those who aren't clever at playing draughts are finally checked by those who are and don't know where to move." "All right. But here is how those who hear what you now say are affected on each occasion." he said." "Then. Now someone might say that in speech he can't contradict you at each particular thing asked." I said. but in deed he sees that of all those who start out on philosophy—not those who take it up for the sake of getting educated when they are young and then drop it. in particular." I said." he said. I said: "Do you suppose that the men who say this are lying?" know. listen to the 488 i [ 167 ] . played not with counters but speeches. aren't used to speaking through images. so they too are finally checked by this other kind of draughts. they are at each question misled a little by the argument. "needs an answer given through an image. how."^ "And you. In saying this. "Are you making fun of me after having in- volved me in an argument so hard to prove? At all events." "When such men. then. "could blame a practice like that. a good learner. whom we agree to be useless to the cities. and don't know what to say. but those who linger in it for a longer time—most become quite queer. rule in them?" "The question you are asking. not to say completely vicious. the truth isn't in any way affected by this. in which you could blame a practice like this that a man colild never adequately pursue if he were not by nature a rememberer. They believe that because of inexperience at questioning and answering. "but I should gladly hear your opinion. "can it be good to say that the cities will have no rest from evils before the philosophers." "Is there any way. and moderation?" "Not even Momus. However. while the ones who seem perfectly decent. no one could contradict you in this." And when "I don't I heard this. "certainly most necessary. and when the littles are collected at the end of the arguments." "You would hear that it looks to me as if they were speaking the e truth. and a friend and kinsman of truth. charming."^ he said. the slip turns out to be great and contrary to the first assertions. magnificent. do nevertheless suffer at least one consequence of the practice you are praising they become are. courage. wouldn't you turn the city over to them alone?" And Adeimantus said: "Socrates. I look to the present case." I said." he said. justice.

" I said. but you understand what I mean. he will. Besides this. and his knowledge of seamanship is pretty much on the same level. they claim it isn't even teachable and are ready to cut to pieces the images. heaven. "I don't suppose you need to scrutinize the image to see that it resembles the cities in their disposition toward the true philosophers. if he is really going to be skilled at ruling a ship. they sail as such men would be thought likely to sail. winds. Though the shipowner surpasses everyone on board in height and strength. And they are al- ways crowded around the shipowner himself. Enchaining the noble shipowner with mandrake. Besides this. begging and doing c every- thing so that fail at d e And sometimes. they rule the ship.socbates/adeimantus the REPUBLIq "•3 488 a image so you may see the condition suffered that there is still more how greedy I am for b by the most decent men no single other condition like it. using what's in it. they either kill the others or throw them out of the ship. he is rather deaf and likewise somewhat shortsighted. don't you believe that the 489 a b be called a stargazer. true pilot will really [ i68 ] . Conceive something of this kind happening either on many ships or one. The sailors are quarreling with one another about the piloting. either by persuading or by forcing the shipowner.^ a prater and useless to them by those who sail on ships run like this?" "Indeed. they praise and call 'skilled sailor. seasons. and at the same time to acquire the pilot's skill. They don't know that for the true pilot it is necessary to pay careful attention to year." "I shall teach him." said Adeimantus. and drinking and feasting. and everything that's proper to the art. teach the image to that man who wonders at the philosophers' not being honored in the cities. "Now." "Indeed. if they succeed at it. So hard is with respect to the cities man who says it is teachable." he said. while the man who is not of this sort they blame as useless. but I must make my image and apology on their behalf by bringing it together from many sources—as the painters paint goatstags and such things by making mixtures.' 'pilot. each supposing he ought to pilot. and try to persuade him that it would be far more to be wondered at if they were honored. stars. or something else. And they don't suppose it's possible to acquire the art and he'll turn the rudder over to them. although he has never learned the art and can't produce his teacher or prove there was a time when he was learning it. then." he said. persuasion and other men practice of how one can get hold of the helm whether the others wish it or not. So with such things happening on the ships. drink. I do.' and 'knower of the ship's business' the man who is clever at figuring out how they will get the rule. "First of all.

that you are telling the truth in saying that the most decent of those in philosophy are useless to the many. on this basis and under these conditions. to go to the doors of doctors. won't we make a sensible apology in saying that it is the nature of the real lover of learning to strive for what is. to the opinions currently held about him?" "Very much so" he "So then." us begin our listening and speaking by reminding our- selves of the point at which we started our description of the kind of nature with which the man who is to be a gentleman is necessarily endowed. if we are able.'^ The truth naturally is that it is necessary for a man who is sick. and he had to 490 pursue it entirely and in every way or else be a boaster who in no way partakes of true philosophy. "Well. certainly. For it's not natural that a pilot beg sailors to be ruled by him nor that the wise go to the doors of the rich. and he does not tarry by each of the many things opined to be but goes forward and [ 169 ] ." "Yes. not for the ruler who is truly of any use to beg the ruled to be ruled. Isn't that so7' to philosophy "Yes. further. if it's present to your mind." 489 h c "Quite right. truth guided him." he said. The man who invented that subtlety lied. But by far the greatest and most powerful slander^ comes d from those who claim to practice such things—those about whom you say philosophy's accuser asserts that. First.' and I admitted that what you say is true. that philosoi phy isn't to blame let for that?" "Most "Then. and every man who needs to be ruled to the doors of the man who is able to rule. and those who are said by them to be useless and gossipers about what's above to be the true pilots. However. whether rich or poor." "Now isn't this one point quite contrary said. then. bid him blame their uselessness on those who don't use them and not on the decent men." "Haven't cent ones?" we gone through the cause of the uselessness of the de- "Yes indeed." "Do you want viciousness of the us next to go through the necessity of the to try to many and show. most of those who go to it are completely vicious and the most decent useless. You'll make no mistake in imagining the statesmen now ruling to be the sailors we were just now speaking of.Book VI / 488a-490h socrates/adeimantus "And. it's not easy for the best pursuit to enjoy a good reputation with those who practice the opposite. that was said.

is nourished and so ceases from his labor pains. while a small number escape—just those whom they call not vicious but useless. suppose everybody will agree with us about this." I said." "That's so. facility at learning. in turn. which moderation. courage. possessing vice entire. we've come now to this point: why are the many bad? And it's for just this reason that we brought up the nature of the true philosophers again and defined what it necessarily is. saying that everyone would be forced to agree to what we are saying." where and among all men a reputation such as you "What corruptions do you mean?" he said." I said. and who often strike false notes. and memory went along with them. must I also force the rest of the philosophic nature's member d chorus into order all over again from the beginning? You surely rethat. "if I I Now b am able. "look at the corruptions of this nature and see how it is destroyed in many. And after that. magnificence. but not before. and see what sort they are who approach a practice that is of no value for them and beyond them. and it is the part akin to it that is fit. In considering the cause of the slander. we it?" wouldn't." is "But a healthy and just disposition." "What then? Will this man have any part in caring for falsehood or. ever assert a chorusi*^ of evils could follow "Of course not. appropriate to these. I suppose. will he hate it?" c "Hell hate "If truth it."^ "Nothing. he knows and lives truly. to go through them for you. "could be more sensible. And you objected. they would say they see that some of them are useless e and the many bad. Or don't you suppose so?" [ 170 ] . all to the contrary." he said. then. "I shall try.socbates/adeimantus the R E P U R T t ^ 490 b does not lose the keenness of his passionate love nor cease from it before he grasps the nature itself of each thing which is with the part of the soul fit to grasp a thing of that sort. having begotten intelligence and truth." he said. "Then we must. thereby attaching to philosophy everysay." he said. also accompanied by "Why. And once near it and coupled with what really is. led the way." he said. but if they let the arguments go and looked to the men themselves whom the argument concerns." "Right. Such a nature—possessing eveiything we prescribed just now for the man who is going to become a perfect philosopher — such natures are few and born only rarely among human beings. we 491 a must look at the natures of the souls that imitate the philosophic nature and set themselves up in its practice.

"we know that the more vigorous it t v. "that s' those with the best natures become exceptionally bad when tVi bad instruction? Or do you suppose an ordinaiy nature is the great injustices and unmixed villainy? Don't you suppose rath it's a lusty one corrupted by its rearing. it will ne grow and come to every kind of virtue." "And what's more." "Well. "and 1 you mean.1 . f v. and everything akin to th v " see the type of thing 1 mean?" 1 1 " what are they?" "What is most surprising "I do. then. "Well. an ordmary one from an inappropriate rearing. ." "Yes." 1 said." I suppose it is reasonable that the best nature cnmac „ ^""'es r J. than "So ." 1 "Won't we say for souls too. and it wll and what was said about them before w ' l seem "What do you bid me do?" he earth or animals. and everything we went through. its v. will come to all the opposite > 1 too believe tii riA i-u as uo the 11 that certain young men are corrupted by sophists. properties when is climate. f • "Concerning every seed or thing that grows." he said. while a weak nature wll be the cause of great things either good or bad?" "Yes. Adeimantus." "Just consider how many great sources of ruin there are fo 491 i-V> of all to hear is that each one of th ments we praised in that nature has a part in destroying the so l. [ 171 ] . ^ goods corrupt it and tear it away—beauty. ' h ^ ' it it. has them and tearing it away from philosophy." I said." I would gladly learn more nrpoicv ^ ^'-isejy what i said. . but if it isn't sown nla t rl nourished in what's suitable." strange. strength f K j ^' relatives who are powerful in a city.. or place suitable to For surely bad doesn't get th more onnncorl i^POsed <. "grasp perfectly plain to you. wealth. j mean ^®' moderation. I do. then." he said. of the gods chances to assist .Book VI / 490b-492a •^^eimantus/sochat "Indeed. aott worse "Yes. . "that's the case. I suppose that if the nature we set down f philosopher chances on a suitable course of learning. ." good "Of course." I said. it correctly as a whole. and that tVi certain sophists who in a private capacity corrupt to an ext t Or do you ^ manv v." he said. whether said. it is. all the things s "rl i. f ^ to than to not-good." "Now few. "that is strange to hear.^ more it is deficient in own it. "besides these.

" "What?" he said. just the way they want them to be?" "But when do they do that?" he said. "many gathered together sit down in assemblies courts. practice what they practice." he said." he said." "No. e you know that they punish the man who's not persuaded with dishonor. "When. "What these educators and sophists inflict in deed when they fail to persuade in speech. strong [ 172 ] . both in excess. a characan education contrary to theirs does not. "besides that one." "So. shouting besides. and will not become differently disposed toward virtue. "And yet." he said. educates in nothing other than these convictions" of the many. "they punish very severely. Or don't 493 a even the attempt is a great folly. with a great deal of uproar. army camps. be of this opinion too. borne by the flood. according to the proverb. educate most perfectly and who turn out young and old. men and women. and praise others. then. as the saying goes." I said. who c d and clapping. It is just like the case of a man who learns by heart the angers and desires of a great. and and the very place surrounding them echo and redouble the uproar of blame and praise. what other sophist or what sort of private speeches do you suppose will go counter to these and prevail?" "I don't suppose any will." I said. theaters. Socrates. or any other common meeting of a multitude. blame some of the things said gest sophists. "but ter receiving "What?" "That each of the private wage earners whom these men call sophists and believe to be their rivals in art. has not. if anything should be saved and become such as it ought to be in regimes in this kind of condition." I said. the rocks necessity. and be such as they are?" "The necessity is great.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIQ Isn't it 492 a h mentioning? rather the very men who say this who are the big." I said. what do you suppose is the state of the young man's heart? Or what kind of private education will hold out for him and not be swept away by such blame and praise and go. "Well. You should be well aware that. let's make an exception to the argument. and death?" "Yes. for the divine. wherever it tends so that he'll say the same things are noble and base as they do. For. and he calls this wisdom." "I am of no other opinion. fines. and. it won't be bad if you say that a god's dispensation saved it. a human character that is. my comrade. Now in such circumstances." he said. which they opine when they are gathered together. "we still haven't mentioned the greatest or done.

or. how it should be approached and how taken hold 493 I what—it becomes most difficult or most under what conditions it is accustomed to utter its several sounds. "in my opinion. or unjust. in the name of Zeus. does this man seem any different from the man who believes it is wisdom to have figured out the anger and pleasures—whether in when—and as a result of gentle." he said. he calls it wisdom and. i painting." "Well. neither having seen nor being able to show someone else how much the nature of the necessary and the good really differ. organizing it as an art." "Plainly." he said." said. in your opinion. or that anything itself." "So. keep all this in mind and recall this question: Can a multitude accept or believe that the fair itself. and. or any service to the a display of poetry. particularly. those who do philosophize are necessarily blamed by "Necessarily. or any city—making the many his masters beyond what is necessary—the socalled necessity of Diomede^^ will compel him to produce the things these men praise." "As well as by all those private men who consort with the mob and desire "So. Knowing nothing in truth about which of these convictions and desires is noble. is rearing. "that a multitude be philosophic. it's impossible. "nor do I suppose I shall hear one. But that those things are in truth good and noble—have you up to now ever heard anyone presenting an argument associates with them. beast he of. When he has learned all this from associating and spending time with the beast. turns to teaching. or evil." he said. what sort of sounds uttered by another make it tame and angry. it nature so that will remain what salvation do you see for a philosophic in its practice and reach its end? Think it [ 173 ] . for this that isn't ridiculous?" "No. Now. wouldn't such a man." it is impossible. in turn. rather than the many fair things." "And them. or good. rather than the many particular things?" 494 "Not in the least." so. he would indeed. and. music. in politics —of the multifarious many who assemble? However a man whether he makes other product of craft. particularly." on this basis.Book VI / 492a-494a socrates/adeimantu. he applies all these names following the great animal's opinions—calling what delights it good and what vexes it bad. I "Then "Yes. or base. to please it. He has no other argument about them but calls the necessary just and noble. be out of place as an educator?" "Yes. then. is. or just.

did agree that facility learning. "What was said is right. so that he won't be able to persuade." he said. for their own affairs." "At least." "What do you suppose. exalt himself to the heights. and won't he. if someone were gently to approach the young man in this condition and tell him the truth—that he has no intelligence in him although he needs it. "thanks to his good nature and his kinship to such speeches. one young man were to apprehend something and be turned and drawn toward philosophy. further." are the so-called "No.dckates/adeimantus the republic We at " 94 b over on the basis of what went before. is rich and noble in it." I said. mindlessly full of pretension and empty conceit?"i3 "Indeed he will." I said. believing he will be competent to mind the business of both Greeks and barbarians." "Won't such a one be first the beginning. what do we suppose those will do who believe they are losing his use and comradeship? Is there any deed they won't do or any word they won't say. lie at his feet begging and honoring him taking possession of and flattering beforehand the power that is going to be his. and that it's not to be acquired except by slaving for its acquisition do you think it will be easy for him to hear through a — wall of so many evils?" e "Far from it. "such a young man will do in such circumstances. and magnificence belong to this nature "Yes. therefore." he said. and concerning the man who's doing the persuading. are. so that he won't be persuaded." "They will. and won't they organize private plots and public i95 a "It's trials?" very necessary. "Then I suppose kinsmen and fellow citizens will surely want to make use of him. and is." he said. "But if. "that's what usually happens." he said." "Of course. courage. when they get a bad rearing. straight from his soul?" c d "Of course he will." "Do you see. good-looking and tall? Won't he be overflowing with unbounded hope. when he is older. in a way the cause of its being exiled from the practice. "Is it possible that such a man will philosophize?" "Not at all." [ 174 ] . after all. concerning him." he said. especially if his among all body naturally matches in everything. and so sort. as a result. especially if he chances to be from a big city. it goods—wealth and all equipment of the wasn't." he said. "it wasn't bad when we said that the very elements of the philosophic nature. memory. "Now." I said.

" things. after them." I said." he said. that of those who have intercourse with her. And particularly from to cities these men come those greatest harm and private men. And such a nature is a rare occurrence in any event. many men with imperfect natures—just as their bodies are mutilated by the arts and crafts." I said. "that they are any different to see than a little.Book VI / 494b-496a socRATEs/ADErMANxus "Then. and.^^ connected with nothing genuine or worthy of true prudence?" "That's entirely certain. is about to marry his master's daughter because he's poor and destitute?"^^ "Hardly at all different." he said. just washed in a bathhouse. while. These are the ones who attach to her reproaches such as even you say are alleged by the men who reproach her—^namely. although philosophy is magnificent station in comparison with this. faring thus." "And what about this? When men unworthy of education come near her and keep her company in an unworthy way. for whom philosophy is most suitable. they chance to be drawn in this direction." I said. some are worthless and the many worthy of exile c many bad "Yes." he said. go thus into and leave her abandoned and unconsummated. bald-headed worker in bronze who has gotten some silver." he said. other unworthy men come to her—like an orphan bereft of relatives— and disgrace her. They themselves live a life that isn't suitable or true. "such is the extent and character of this destruction and corruption of the best nature with respect to the best pursuit. those retains a more For. so too their souls are doubled up and spoiled as a result of being in mechanical occupations—or isn't that necessary?"^^ "Quite so. and. what sort of notions and opinions will we say they beget? Won't they be truly fit to be called sophisms. you surprising man. "Do you suppose. No little nature ever does anything great either to private man or city." "And what is said is fitting. "For other manikins see that this place has become empty although full of fine names and pretensions. "What sort of things are such men likely to beget? Aren't they the other arts at least. [ 175 ] . these d men too are overjoyed to leap out of the who happen to be subtlest in their little art." "Very true. just like those who run away from prisons to temples. as well as those who do who do the the good." he said. newly released from bonds. "that is what is said. Aiming at e 496 a bastard and ordinary?" "Quite necessarily. wearing a newmade cloak and got up like a bridegroom. "So these men. 495 a b we if say. it still arts into philosophy.

Now the men who have become members of this small band have tasted how sweet and blessed a possession it is. when dust and rain are blown about by the wind." I said. " would leave having accomplished not " the least of things. he is content if somehow he himself can live his life here pure of injustice and unholy deeds. Seeing others filled full of lawlessness. they have seen sufficiently the madness of the many. and take his leave from it graciously and cheerfully sign isn't — — — — — with fair hope." he said. despises the business of the city and looks out beyond. have in my opinion been sensibly stated. My case the demonic^s to restrain d e worth mentioning. I said. Adeimantus. not one city today is in a condition worthy of the philosophic nature. And this is why it is twisted and changed.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIq 496 a b "Then it's a very small group. and that there is no ally with whom one could go to the aid of justice and be preserved. For in Theages' case all the other conditions for an exile from philosophy were present. And the bridle of our comrade Theages might be such as him. remains by her side consistent with nature. suitable regime. perhaps. and that no one who minds the business of the cities does virtually anything sound. he keeps quiet and minds his own business as a man in a storm. so " [ 176 ] . "But not the greatest either. just as a foreign seed sown in alien ground is likely to be overcome and fade away into the native stock. For in he didn't chance upon a a suitable one he himself will grow more and I said. At the same time. and " that it isn't just that b it be. come c to who justly despise it because they have good natures. "I have nothing further to say about this. "Now the reasons why philosophy is slandered. "which remains to keep company with philosophy in a way that's worthyperhaps either a noble and well-reared disposition. for it has perhaps occurred in some one other man. and. Rather ^just like a human being who has fallen in with wild beasts and is neither willing to join them in doing injustice nor sufficient as one man to resist all the savage animals one would perish before he has been of any use to city or friends and be of no profit to himself or others. but the sicklinessi"^ of his body shutting him out of politics. "but this is the very charge I'm bringing. restrains him. unless you still have something else to say." 'he 497a "Well. held in check by exile. might her. before." he said. a very few men from another art. Taking all this into the calculation. "But which of the current regimes do you say is suitable for it?" "None at all. "if save the common things along with the private. or no other. for want of corruptersor when a great soul grows up in a little city. stands aside under a little wall.

"from fear of what you people." "How ought it to be?" he said. they believe it's a great thing if they are willing to be listeners. both it's in terms of their natures and their practices. it is then will make plain that really is divine as ( we agreed this and that the rest are human. but. really he said. "and. have made plain—that its demonstration would be long and hard. < ting down "Yes. in this very one which was stressed in connection with it—that there would always have to be present in the city something possessing the same understanding of the regime as you. And now what's left is by no means the easiest to go through. "That's not what I was going to ask. but whether it is the same one we described in founding the city or another. plain that next you'll ask regime is." "It is the same in the other respects." I said." "You've not got it. with your insistence. great things carry with them the risk of a fall. the lawgiver.Book VI / 496a-498h socRATEs/AomMANTVi too this class does not at present maintain into an alien disposition. if others are doing this and they are invited.^^ inasmuch kindled again. had when you were set- what too." "It won't be hindered by a lack of willingness. as they not [ 177 ] . that is. Consider how eagerly and recklessly I am going to say now that up this practice way a city takes should be just the opposite of what done nowadays." "How?" "Nowadays. who are fancied to be complete philosophers. "You'll be on hand to see my at least.!^ In later life." "But it wasn't made sufficiently plain." he said. I mean by the hardest part that which has to do with speeches. Of course. those. they are far 498 more are extinre- guished than Heracleitus' sun. I by anything. in the interval before running a household and making money." said." I said. "those who take it up at all are lads fresh from childhood. except of course for a certain few. fine things are hard. itself best. and. just as it is its own power but falls away it 497 I But it if it ever takes hold in the best regime." I said. Toward old age. "that point was made. they approach its hardest part and then leave. "let the as the saying goes." he said." proof get its completion by clearif ing this up. thinking it ought to be done as a hobby." the laws. eagerness by the is a lack of capacity." "What is it?" "How For surely a city can take philosophy in all hand without being destroyed." "All the same.

they meet with such arguments." let loose to life they have lived with a suitable lot in that other d you truly are speaking eagerly. he said. it's no wonder that the many are not persuaded by these speeches. have they given an adequate hearing to and free speeches of the sort that strain with every nerve in quest of the truth for the sake of knowing and that 'nod a distant greeting'^^ to the subtleties and contentious quibbles that strain toward nothing but opinion and contention in trials as well as in private groups. and holds power in a city fit for him. you blessed man. political and military duties. beginning with Thrasymachus. born again." "That's a short time you are speaking about. except as a spare-time occupation— those who are going to live happily and. that we were frightened. I said. to up an education and philosophy manhood. Far rather they have seen such phrases purposely balanced' with one another. those to or whether they want [ 178 ] . who aren't vicious. n intense gymnastic. "if you compare it to the whole." he said. crown the place." "Don't make a quarrel between Thrasymachus and me when we've just become friends. to take charge of a city. "However. However. compelled by the truth. in deed and speech. thus securing in good care of their bodies ing into and take very the time when they are growing and bloom- advance age to the time when ought to be subjected to a more begins to fail and they are beyond c And as they the soul begins to reach maturity. at this graze and do nothing else." b "Nor. they are youths and boys they ought suitable for youths. "No time at all.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIp When at 498 b take "Entirely opposite. we said that neither city nor regime will ever become perfect. I said. "Well. or give my them some help in preparation for that other life e 499 a when. before some necessity chances to constrain those few philosophers called useless. the others. but. "We'll not give up our efforts before we either persuade him and "In opinion. "No. I suppose that the many among the hearers are even more eager to oppose you and won't be persuaded at all. And when strength a helper for philosophy. "foreseeing it then. though we weren't even enemies before. nor yet will a " " man become now perfect in the same way either." I said. not falling together spontaneously as they are now. they have never seen one or more. all the same. For they never saw any existing thing that matches the present speech." he said. when time they ought to be they die. they haven't. it was on account of this. fair I don't at all. Socrates. Or do you suppose so? " " "No. But as for a man who to the limit of the possible is perfectly likened' to and balanced'^i with virtue.

" against the many. "don't make such a severe accusation sort of opinion." he said. in this case we are ready to do battle for the argument that the regime charge of a or there even is now spoken of has been. Adeimantus. "Yes. "in my opinion.Book VI / 498b-500c socrates/adeimanti not. I said. there has been some necessity for those city. and who always make their arguments about persons." "Don't you also share my supposition that the blame for the many's being harshly disposed toward philosophy is on those men from outside who don't belong and have burst in like drunken revelers. share your supposition." he said. And if they see it this way. "For."^ "Perhaps. abusing one another and indulging a taste for quarreling. we too agree. presumably. or will be later.^^ doing what is least seemly in philosophy?" "Very much so. and the city to obey. and will be when this Muse has become master of a city. doubtless you'll say that they will take on another sort of opinion and answer differently. "of course. "I." if. as was just done. I any reason were the case it is. their nature and the character of their practice so the many won't believe you mean those whom they suppose to be philosophers." 50C he said. we would justly be laughed at for uselessly saying Or isn't things that are like prayers." I said." he said. That it's hard. For it's not impossible that it come to pass nor are we speaking of impossibilities. "say that in the opinion of the many it isn't so. is so. is. if They will no doubt have another you soothe them and do away with the slander against the love of learning by pointing out whom you mean by the philosophers. or into the fathers themselves.^^ or a true erotic passion for true philoso- 499 phy flows from some divine that there If that is inspiration into the sons of those who hold deny power^'* or the office of king. that so?" "Therefore. "You blessed man." "Will you. a man who has his understanding truly turned toward the things that are has no leisure to look down toward the affairs of human beings and to be Klled with envy and ill [ 179 ] . Or do you suppose anyone of an ungrudging and gentle character is harsh with the man who is not harsh or bears grudges against the man who bears none? I shall anticipate you and say that I believe that so hard a nature is in a few but not the multitude." "That. why either or both of these things is impossible." instead of indulging yourself in quarreling with them. too. who are on the peaks of philosophy to take such a necessity in some barbaric place somewhere far outside of onr range of vision. in the endless time that has gone by. and by distinguishing.

But what kind of drawing do you mean?" "They would take the city and the dispositions of human beings." b suppose that in filling out their work they would look away frequently in both directions. in the first place. e that what we are saying about they then be harsh with the philosophers and disman is true. fair. And that's hardly easy. mixing and blending the practices as ingredients. I [ 180 ] . At all events." he said. "which." "If what he him to practice putting men. it's "Then d the orderly ble the philosopher. both in private and in public. But there is much slander abroad. and thus." I said. so." "In every way that's most certain. keeping company with the divine and who becomes orderly and divine." I said. makes himself like them. toward the just. as much as possible. they won't be harsh. they would produce the image of man. will trust us when we say that a city could never be happy otherwise than by having its outlines drawn by the painters who use the divine pattern?" "Now." "And they regime?" he "Next. again. but remain all in order according to reason—he imitates them and. to the extent that is possifor a human being. because he sees and contemplates things that are set in a regular arrangement and are always in the sanie condition—things that neither do injustice to one another nor suffer it at one another's hands. "for sees there into the dispositions of "Least of all. they would wipe clean. and moderate by nature and everything of the sort." he said. do you suppose he'll prove to be a bad craftsman of moderation. Or do you suppose there is any way of keeping someone from imitating that which he admires and therefore keeps will as a result of fighting company with?" "It's not possible. justice." he said. "provided they do gain this awareness. don't you think they would outline the shape of the "Of course. But. though they were a tablet. instead of forming only himself. and vulgar^^ virtue as a whole?" some necessity arises. toward what is in human beings. you know that straight off in this they would differ from the rest— in not being willing as to take either private man or city in hand or it to draw laws before they receive it clean or themselves are right. and.socrates/adeimantus the republic 500 c with them. rather. if the many become aware this 501 a "No." make said.^^ taking hints "After that.

"even be one who will argue that." he I suppose they would rub out one thing and draw in another again. until they made htiman dispositions as dear to the gods as they admit of being." he said." I said." "Or this—that such a nature." he said. will anyone argue that there is no chance that children of kings. is there anyone who would argue that?" "If that they 502 "How could he?" [ 181 ] . "And. "let's not say that they are less angry but have become in every way gentle and have been persuaded. "Or that their nature as we described it isn't akin to the best?" "Not that either." "And "The drawing. "if they are moderate. if nothing else." "And if such men came into being. because we were handing the cities over to him. But that in all of time not one of all of them could ever be saved. so that from shame. "Now." "For how will they be able to dispute it? Will they say the philosophers aren't lovers of that which is and of truth?" "That would be strange. "that the man we were then praising to them is such a painter of regimes? It was on his account that they were so harsh." "Will they class still be angry when we say city." he said. and very much so. they will agree. can anyone say that it's quite necessary that they be corrupted? That it's hard to save them." I said. we too admit. you please. or of men who hold power." he said. "Right." he said. could be born philosophers by their natures?" "There won't.Book VI / 500C-502b SOC3E\ATEs/ADE1MANTX from exactly that phenomenon in called god-like human beings which Homer too 501 I and the image of god. there will that before the philosophic becomes master of a for city or citizens nor will the regime about be no rest from ills either which we tell tales in speech get its completion in deed?" "Perhaps less." "Are we then somehow persuading those men who you said were coming at us full speed." said. when it chances on suitable practices. will not be perfectly good and philosophic if any is? Or are those men whom we excluded by nature more so?"^^ "Surely not. Are they any gentler on hearing it now?" "Yes. as to the next point." "Most certainly. "would at any rate be fairest that way. let's assume they have been persuaded of this." he said." I said.

then.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIQ I 502 b is "But surely. when down the laws and we have gone citizens through." "What you say I is quite true. "turned out to have been very wise of me to have left aside previously the unpleasantness about the possession of to women. however." "Yes. tested in pleasures and pains. of course. the necessity of going through these things nonetheless arose. gone through sufficient." "For. if you remember. and that they must show that they don't cast out this conviction in labors or fears or any other reverse. as it was. sneaked by." "Yes." it tumis out for us that what we are saying could come to be. But. shrank from saying what has now been dared [ 182 ] ." it's possible." he said. further." he said. we have. that they must show themselves to be lovers of the city. is it anything wonderful or impossible have the same opinions as we do?" "I don't suppose so. These were the kinds of things that were being said as the argument. "one is sufficient. The man who's unable to be so must be rejected. as well as the institution of I the rulers either. then." he said. granted sufficiently." "My friend. "it's practices that surely not impossible that the be willing "Not at all. for fear of setting in motion what now confronts us. if he has an obedient doubted. Well. "the birth of one." said." to carry them out. impossible. already it was "Now. that it is best. if it about lawgiving is best — d what studies and practices the saviors will take their place within our regime for us and at what ages each will take up each study?" result of "Indeed we must. did so because knew that the wholly e is a thing both likely to hard to bring into being. I believe. if others also "And "Yes. "that's the way it turns out." I said. but what concerns the rulers must be pursued as it were from the beginning. nor have I left aside procreation. We were saying. covering its face." said. "I do remember." city sufficient for perfecting everything that a ruler sets I is now he said. while the one who emerges altogether pure. not." "Now that this discussion has after considerable effort reached an end. mustn't we next speak about what remains in what way and as a as it seems." c "But. must be set up as ruler and be given gifts and prizes both when he is alive and after he has died. "It hasn't. and that it is hard for it to come to be. like gold tested in fire." he said. what particularly concerns women pletely true institution and comarouse resentment and 03 a b and children has been completed.

" e 504 a "Well. "Don't you suppose this will be rare?" "Of course. "it would be just for me not to hear the rest. and wisdom each is. as some turn out to be cowards in the other things. rather its many parts grow forcibly separated from each other. c "You know that natures that are good at learning. have memories." he said." he said. in honor. They are hard to move and hard to teach. as if they had become numb." say is true. "And let's now dare to say this: philosophers must be 503 b established as the "Yes. Rather the men who possess all them are carried away by wherever chance leads and steadiness goes out from them." "Then it must be tested in the labors. let it most precise^^ guardians. of course. are shrewd and quick and everything else that goes along with these qualities. "And. moderation. courage.%Book VI / S02b-504a socrates/adeimantus anyhow. and are as well full of youthful fire and magnificence— such natures don't willingly grow together with understandings their quickness that choose orderly lives which are quiet and steady. and pleasures we mentioned then." "And also what was said before that?" [ 183 ] . on the other hand. "But exactly what kinds of studies do you mean by the greatest?" "You." be said." he said.^** and they are filled with sleep and yawning when they must work through anything of the sort." I said. "that by separating out three forms in the soul we figured out what justice. those steady." he said. act the same way in the face of studies." he said. or whether it will turn out to be a coward. which one would be inclined to count on as trustworthy and which in war are hard to move in the face of fears." I said. fears. in "Then bear mind that you'll probably have but a few. For the parts of the nature that described as a necessary condition for them are rarely willing to grow together in the same place." "If I didn't remember. or in rule. "But we are saying that this nature must participate in both in good and fair fashion. that's surely the proper way to investigate it." we "How do you mean?" he said." "That's so. and moreover— what we passed over then but mention now— it must also be given gymnastic in many studies to see whether it will be able to bear the greatest studies. not easily changeable dispositions." he said." "Right. remember. or it mustn't be given a share in the most precise "What you d education.

do you think anyone is going to let you go without asking what it is?" "Certainly not." I said. as to what you mean by the greatest study and what it concerns. And so. since you have many times heard that the idea of the good is the greatest study and that it's by availing oneself of it along with just things and the rest that they become useful and beneficial." he said. as we did a while ago. and to the man who took it they would become evident." e "So these aren't the greatest." "That's likely." "They were satisfactory to me. And now you know pretty certainly that I'm going to say "That's a very worthy thought. you see." he said. d "Well then. it's not a few times already that you have heard it." I said. I suppose it's rather the latter. At all events. deficient in precision. For nothing incomplete is the measure of anything. within measure. I believe. Or isn't it ridiculous to make every effort so that other things of little worth be as precise greater than justice and the other things and pure as can be.ADEIMANTUS/SOCKATES THE REPUBLlQ 504 a b "What was itr "We were." "My friend. "And it looks as though they were for the others too. "it's an experience a guardian of a city and of laws hardly needs. but that proofs on a level with what had been said up to then could be tacked on. the statements made at that time were. or else. only you can tell. "a measure in such things. but now you are either not thinking or have it in mind to get hold of me again and cause me trouble. is no measure at all. But certain men are sometimes of the opinion that this question has already been adequately disposed of and that there is no need to seek further." "Easygoingness. saying that in order to get the finest possible look at these things another and longer road around would be required." I said. he'll never come to the end of the greatest and most fitting study. my comrade. as it looks to me. "Just ask. which in any way falls short of that which is. while not deeming the greatest things worth the greatest precision?" 505 a he said." I said. "However. but their most perfect elaboration must not be stinted." [ 184 ] . as we were just saying." he said." he said. "but there is something yet we went through?" "There is both something greater." c "Well. "and also even for these very virtues it won't do to look at a sketch." I said. "causes quite a throng of men to have this experience. And you all said that that would suffice. "such a man must go the longer way around and labor no less at study than at gymnastic. If they were satisfactory to you.

while in that of the more refined it is prudence. besides this. e must be thus in the dark about a thing of this kind and importance?" 506 c [ 185 ] ." "And what about this? Isn't it clear that many men would choose to do. "And what about those who define pleasure as good? Are they any less full of confusion than the others? Or aren't they too compelled to agree that there are bad pleasures?" "Indeed they are. "if they reproach us for not knowing the good. further." "Isn't it d clear that there are many great disputes about it?" "Of course. possess. my friend. And because this is so. it is. in turn." he said. even if they aren't. you also know that in the opinion of the many the good is pleasure. "Of course. but are finally compelled to say 'about the good. that we don't have sxifficient knowledge of it. Or do you suppose it's of any advantage to possess everything except what's good? Or to be prudent about everything else in the absence of the good.Book VI / 504a-506a socrates/adeimantus this and. "I don't. "Now this is what every soul pursues and for the sake of which it does everything. 505 a And. and from here on out everyone despises the opinion?" "Quite so." "Very true. the soul loses any profit there might have been in the rest." he said. while being prudent about nothing fine and good?" "No. if we don't know it of the rest without this." he said. when it comes to good things." "Then I suppose the result is that they agree that the same things are good and bad." "Of course." he said. and enjoy the reputation for things that are opined to be just and fair. just as there b would be none in possessing something in the absence of the good. by Zeus." I said. isn't it?" "Of course. into whose hands we put everything." "And. that those who believe this can't point out what kind of prudence it is." "And. and then speak as though we did know. no one is satisfied with what is opined to be so but each seeks the things that are.' "And it's quite ridiculous of them. you and should have ever so much knov^^ledge know that it's no profit to us. while. The soul divines that it is something but is at a loss about it and unable to get a sufficient grasp of just what it is. Will we say that even those best men in the city. grasped what they mean c when they utter the name of the good. or to have a stable trust such as it has about the rest. For they say it is prudence about the good as though we.

"Is it your opinion that it's just to speak about what one doesn't know as though one knew?" "Not at all as though one knew. let's leave aside for the time being what the good itself is for it looks to me as though it's out of the range of our present thrust to attain the opinions I now hold about it." I said." I said. at the end. "Another time you'll pay us what's due on the — father's narrative. It will satisfy us even if you go through the good just as you went through justice." he said. But I'm willing to tell what looks like a child of the good and most similar to it. to let it go." before this is known. when it's possible to hear bright and fair ones from others?" "No. "that just and fair things. 506 a "Least of "I all." he said. But. as one's supposition." he said. "You're not going to withdraw when you are. "But you. or pleasure. "that I were able to pay and you were able [ 186 ] . "Do you want d to see ugly things. as it were. at least. oversees it?" now. one ought to "It doesn't be willing to state what one supposes. "Haven't you noticed that all opinions without knowledge are ugly? The best of them are blind. Or do men who opine something true without intelligence seem to you any different from blind men who travel the right road?" "No." he said. I divine that no one will adequately know the just and fair things themselves suppose. if you please. you blessed men. "Won't our regime be perfectly ordered if such a guardian. blind and crooked." b who knows good is these things." he said." said Glaucon." '0' o "I could wish. moderation and the to it." I said. won't have gotten themselves a guardian who's worth very much in the man who doesn't know this." "It will quite satisfy me too. rest." he said. "But I fear I'll not be to e up and in my eagerness I'll cut a graceless figure and have pay the penalty by suffering ridicule. do you say that the knowledge. or if not." c appear just to me. Socrates. when it isn't known in what way they are good. one "That's a fine divination of yours." "What?" I said. "It's been pretty transparent all along that other people's opinions about these things wouldn't be enough for "Necessarily.adeimantus/socrates/glaucon the republic he said. my comrade. Socrates. "however." "Do tell. "to be ready to tell other people's convictions but not your own when you have spent so much time occupied with these things. Socrates." "And what about this?" I said. or something else beside these?" "Here's a real man!" I said. in the name of Zeus.

and so many. that need anything of the kind." I said. down as That s so." a good itself." I said." he said." I said. we though the idea were one. "that with the other senses that we sense all hear the things heard. Or can you of any?" "Not I. Is there a need for another class of thing in addition to hearing and sound in order that the one hear and the other be heard—a third thing in the absence of which the one won't hear and the other won't be heard?" "No. and not just the interest." "What are they?" he said. moreover. Anyhow.Book VI / S06a-507d socrates/glaucon to receive it itself." he said.''^! "Well be "Yes. we do. so fair things. "And. "I d suppose. in the absence of a third class of thing whose nature is specifically directed to "Surely. while the ideas are intellected but not seen." b I "We both many "Yes." "With what part of ourselves do we see the things seen?" "With the sight." "Have you. I 507 a receive this interest and child of the good itself But be careful that don't in some way unwillingly deceive you as careful as in rendering the account of the interest fraudulent. "Just speak. "Isn't it with hearing. we say that the former are seen but not in- tellected." said. Now. again. "reflected on how lavish the craftsman of the senses was in the fabrication of the power of seeing and being seen?" "Not very much." "And we on refer also assert that there for all the things that we then set them it to dress as that one idea of each as which really is." he said. [ 187 ] . "Well consider it in this way. "as soon as I've come minded you of the things stated here earlier on other occasions. as is the case now. "Don't you notice that the power of seeing and what's seen do have such a need?" "How?" tries to when sight is in the eyes and the man possessing them make use of it. and so on for each kind of thing." he said." I we possibly can. not to tell say none. and that is sensed?" we "Of course. and color is present in what is to be seen." he said. good things." c "That's entirely certain. "that there are not many other things. many "and distinguish in speech. assert that there are. and we adis a fair itself." to an agreement and reand already often repeated said.

when one no longer turns them to those things over whose colors the light of day extends but to those over which the gleams of night extend. that which you call light " I "What you say is true." "Is sight." I said. when one turns them on those things illuminated by the sun. by "Doesn't get the power it has as a sort of overflow from the i sun's treasury?" "Most certainly." "Which of the gods in heaven can you point to as the lord responsible for this." it it is the most sunlike'^ of the organs of the ^ "Yes. is it." far from being without honor. "For it's plain your question refers to the sun.socrates/glaucon the know REPUBLlfti and the col 507 e this ors will very purpose. "But." "Quite so. of course. insignificant." [ 188 ] ." "Surely not. are dimmed and appear nearly blind as though pure sight were not in them." "You know. of?" he said. they see clearly and sight shows itself to be in these same intellected." I said." he I said." he said." that the sight will see nothing "What "It's class of thing are you speaking said. "But senses. is if light is more honorable than "it's the yokes uniting other not without honor. "Then the sense of sight and the power of being seen are yoked together with a yoke that. then." he said." it i comes to be—what we . "Explain it to me still further." "And the sun isn't sight sight itself?" either." he said. "that eyes. by the measure of an idea by no 508 a means teams." he said. "Well. seen things seen?" "The very one you and the others would also point to. "say that the sun is the offspring of the good mean—an is offspring the good begot in a proportion with itself: as the c good in the intelligible d sun is what is seen. whose light makes our sight see in the finest way and the "But." I suppose far. I suppose. so the region with respect to intelligence and what is in the visible region with respect to sight and eyes. then. but as its cause is seen by "That's so." "How?" he said. naturally related to this god in the following way?" I "How?" b "Neither sight itself nor that in which call the eye— is the sun. you be unseen.

just as in the other region it is right to hold light and sight sunlike. but to believe that either of them is the good is not right. here." "But. And. but also with generation. "Apollo. exceeding it in dignity^^ and power. if you are leaving anything "And don't out. that's the way it seems." the "1 b "Therefore." 508 d is I I P: way." I said." 509 a "You speak of an overwhelming beauty. too." I said." I "Hush. it intellects. but also existence and being are them besides as a result of it. "if it provides knowledge and truth but is itself beyond them in beauty. as fair as these two are—knowledge and truth — if you believe that it is something different from them and still fairer than they. "I am leaving out a throng of things. you can understand it to be a thing known. said. "don't leave even the slightest thing aside. say that greater honor. say that not only being knovm is present in the things known in as a consequence of the good. then. but to believe them to be sun is not right." in this way. to hold these two to be like the good is right. so. it. although the good isn't being but is still beyond being. and nourishment although it itself isn't generation." "Of course. changing opinions up and down." e what provides the truth to the things known and gives the power to the one who knows. it opines and is dimmed. of course. is the idea of the good. You surely don't mean it is pleasure." [ 189 ] . what a demonic c excess." "You. your belief will be right. growth." he said. The condition which characterizes the good must receive still "Therefore. "But consider its image still further "How?" suppose you'll say the sun not only provides what is seen with power of being seen. and seems at such times not to possess intelligence. but. But when it fixes itself on that which is mixed with darkness.'3 Glaucon." "Well. think that the soul it also characterized in this When fixes itself "Yes. As for knowledge and truth." he said." said. on coming into being and passing away.I Book VI / 507e-509c glaucoi^sockates I "Surely." And Glaucon. as the cause of the knowledge and truth. "at least until you have gone through the likeness with the sun." "are responsible for compelling me to tell my opinions about under any conditions stop. quite ridiculously." "Well. and appears to possess intelligence. knows." he said. on that which is illumined by truth and that which is.

" cut each the same clarity do understand. the other for the class that is intellected and go on and — e 510 a segment in ratio. and everything that grows. as "Don't. [ 190 ] . using as images the things that were previously imitated. again. calculation. take a line cut in two unequal segments. bright things. "But all the same '* insofar as possible at present. in its turn. these two things king of the intelligible class and region. is compelled to investigate on the basis of hypotheses and makes its way not to a beginning but to an end. "sufficiently " and the like treat as known the odd and the even. while in the other part it makes its way to a beginning^^ that is free from hypotheses. not leave anything out willingly that. in terms of relative and obscurity. do you and that the one have these two forms. one for the class is seen." I said. "And would you also be willing." I said. and the whole class of artifacts." I said. you'll have one segment in the visible part for images. "Well." he c "Let's try introduction. I mean by images first shadows. visible and intelligible? "I " do. so the likeness is distinguished from that of which it is the like"I — " ness?" h be "I would indeed. "I put them there. I don't say 'of the heaven' so as not to seem to you to be playing the sophist with the name.socrates/gij^ucon the REPUBLJo suppose it's 509 c "I I will leave out quite a bit. while the other is king of the visible. and other things akin to these in each kind of inquiry. "How?" "Like this: in one part of it a soul. "Now. then. as the opinable is distinguished from the knowable.^ Now.^^ starting out from hypothesis and without the images used in the other part. "You'll understand more easily after this suppose you know that the men who work in geometry. then appearances produced in water and in all close-grained. the figures. "to say that with respect to truth or lack of it." "I don't. said. smooth." I'll I said. d are. and everything of the sort. consider " also how the intelligible section should cut. if you understand. is "conceive we say. These things they worthwhile to give any further make hypotheses and don't think it account of them to themselves or others. three forms of angles." "Then in the other segment put that of which this first is the likeness the animals around us. I understand what you mean here." he said. Now." he said." that "Then. by means of forms themselves it makes its inquiry through them." he said.

but using forms themselves. not for the sake of the diagonal they draw." "I understand.^^ When that which depends on this beginning and in such fashion goes back down again to an end." he said. indicating that thought is something between opinion and intelligence.. intelligible. this is the form I said was intelligible. and you seem to me to call the habit of geometers and their likes thought and not intelligence. but rather on the basis of hypotheses—these men. not thinking about them but about those others that they are like? They make the arguments for the sake of the square itself and the diagonal itself. and although those who behold their objects are compelled to do so with the thought and not the senses. I know that. These things themselves that they mold and draw. though they were clear to all. argument now depends on c understand." "Well.XKS/CX. one can see in no other way than with thought. a soul in investigating it is compelled to use hypotheses." "What you say is true. 511 a h potheses—that making the hypotheses not beginnings but really hyis. even though they are." is free has grasped this. don't possess intelligence with respect to the objects. seeking to see those things themselves. and in comparison with which they are opined to be clear and are given honor.Book VI / 509c-511d SOCK. then. "although not adequately—for in my opinion it's an enormous task you speak of—that you wish to distinguish "I what is and is intelligible contemplated by the knowledge of dialectic as being clearer than that part contemplated by what are called the arts. go on to understand that by the other segment of the intelligible I mean that which argument itself grasps with the power of dialectic. it ends in forms too. given a beginning." that part of d [ 191 ] . they go ahead with their exposition of what remains and end consistently at the object toward which their investigation was directed. The beginnings in the arts are hypotheses. and does not go to a beginning because it is unable to step out above the hypotheses. in my opinion. then. Beginning from them." he said. of which there are shadows and images in as 510 d g water. they that now use as images. "that you mean what falls under geometry and its kindred arts.CO. these men—because they don't consider them by going up to a beginning. However." "Most certainly. "Well. making no use of anything sensed in any way." he said. going through forms to forms. "Don't you also know that they use visible forms besides and make their arguments about them. steppingstones and springboards— in order to reach from hypothesis at the what it beginning of the whole. and likewise with the rest. And it uses as images those very things of which images are made by the things below." he said.

and thought in relation to the second. and to the last imagination." I said.39 ments to Arrange them in a proportion. "And I agree and arrange them as you [ 192 ] . and believe that as the segwhich they correspond participate in truth." "I understand/' say. "And. so they participate in clarity. to the third assign trust.ocrates/glaucon the republic 111 d e "You have made a most adequate exposition. » he said. take these four affections arising in the soul in relation to the four segments: intellection in relation to the highest one. along with me.

193 ] . and statues of men and other animals wrought from stoiie." c 515 a "For in the first place." "I see. Their light is from a fire burning far above and behind them. wood." "It's a strange image. likening it to a condition of the following kind. some of the carriers utter sounds while others are silent.BOOK VII "make an image of our nature in its educaand want of education." he said. do you suppose such men would have seen anything of themselves and one another other than the shadows cast by the fire on the side of the cave facing them?" "They're like us. a long one. as is to be expected." he said. "Next. Between the fire and the prisoners there is a road above. built like the partitions human "Then also see along this wall human beings carrying all sorts of artifacts. open to the light across the whole width of the cave. They are in it from childhood with their legs and necks in bonds so that they are fixed. seeing only in front of them. tion 514 a b puppet-handlers set in front of the beings and over which they show the puppets. then. along which see a wall." I said. See human beings as though they were in an underground cavelike dwelhng with its entrance. which project above the wall." I said. unable because of the bond to turn their heads all the way around. and every kind of material. "and strange prisoners you're telling of.

to turn his neck around." he said." "And. "such men would hold that the truth is nothing other than the shadows of artificial things. to walk and look up toward the light. moreover. and who." I said." he said." he said. by Zeus. upward way and didn't let him go before he had dragged him out into the light of the sun.:tAUCON/SC>CRATES THE REPUBLip 515 a b could they. "what their release and healing from bonds and folly would be like if something of this sort were by nature to happen to them. because he is somewhat nearer to what is and more turned toward beings. is unable to make out those things whose shadows he saw before. steep. Take a man who is released and suddenly compelled to stand up. wouldn't he be distressed and annoyed at being so dragged? And when he came to the light." "Then most certainly." "If they were able to discuss things with one another. don't you believe they would hold that they are naming these things going by before them that they see?"* "Necessarily" c d e 516 a "And what if the prison also had an echo from the side facing them? Whenever one of the men passing by happens to utter a sound do you suppose they would believe that anything other than the passing shadow was uttering the sound?" "No. were to compel the man to answer his questions about what they are? Don't you suppose he'd be at a loss and believe that what was seen before is truer than what is now shown?" "Yes. he sees more correctly." "Most necessarily. while now. "Now consider. turning away to those things that he is able to make out and hold them to be really clearer than what is being shown?" "So he would." I said." he said. "And if. because he is dazzled. if he compelled him to look at the light itself. wouldn't he have his eyes full of its beam and be unable to see even one of the things now said to be true?" [ 194 ] . in particular. "I don't. showing him each of the things that pass by. "by far." he said. and. in doing all this is in pain and." I said. would his eyes hurt and would he flee. What do you suppose he'd say if someone were to tell him that before he saw silly nothings. "if they had been compelled to keen heads motionless throughout life?" "And what about the things that are carried by? Isn't it the same with them?" their "How "Of course. "someone dragged him away from there by force along the rough.

would he be affected as Homer says and want very much 'to be on the soil. 516 a And from there he could turn beholding the things in heaven and heaven itself." "It's plain. which after." b c "And if in that time there were among them any honors. such a man were to come on coming suddenly from the sun wouldn't his eyes get infected with darkness?" he said. more easily at to night—looking at the light of the stars and the moon—than by day—looking at the sun and sunlight." he said. and most remembers which of them are accustomed to pass before. wouldn't he be so. don't you suppose he would consider himself happy for the change and pity the others?" "Quite so. and prizes for the man who is sharpest at making out the things that go by. praises. and. later. and which at the same time as others. "And if he once more had to compete with those perpetual prisoners in forming judgments about those shadows while his vision was still dim. to a portionless man." he said. he wouldn't." "Then finally I suppose he would be able to make out the sun—not its appearances in water or some alien place." he said." he said. a serf to another man. in your opinion would he be desirous of them and envy those who are honored and hold power among these men? Or. At first he'd most easily make out the shadows. the things themselves. but the sun itself by itself in its own region— and see what it's like. rather. "I suppose he would prefer to undergo everything rather than live that way.'^ and to undergo anything whatsoever rather than to opine those things and live that way?" "Yes." "Very much 517 a [ 195 ] ." I said. see and after that the phantoms of the human beings and the other things in water. "at least not right away." d e "Now down reflect on this too. and who is thereby most able to divine what is going to come. and if the time needed for getting accustomed were not at all short. "that this would be his next step." "Then I suppose he'd have to get accustomed." "Necessarily." "What then? When he recalled his first home and the wisdom there. and is in a certain way the cause of all those things he and his companions had been seeing. and his fellow prisoners in that time. "And after that he would already be in a position to conclude about it that this is the source of the seasons and the years.Book VII / 515a-517a glaucon/socrates "No. "If again and sit in the same seat." "Of course. before his eyes had recovered. and is the steward of all things in the visible place. if he were going to what's up above.

"Well. At all events. "I." I said. but once seen. it must be concluded that this is in fact the cause of all that is right and fair in everything in the visible it gave birth to light and its sovereign.scx:rates/glaucon the REPUBLIq it 517 a the source of laughter. "this image as a whole must be connected with what was said before. and the light of the fire in it to the sun's power. "at least in the way I " " — — can. A god doubtless knows if it happens to be true. in applying the going up and the seeing of what's above to the soul's journey up to the intelligible place. "if a man. follows the image of which I told before." he said." d e "Come." "Of course it's likely. is the idea of the good. then. is graceless and looks quite ridiculous when with his sight still dim and before he has gotten sufficiently accustomed to the surrounding darkness he is compelled in courts or elsewhere to contest about the shadows of the just or the representations of which they are the shadows. then. and be surprised that the men who get to that point aren't v^dlling to mind the business of human beings. since you desire to hear it. but rather that their souls are always eager to spend their time above. and. stemming from two sources ^when they have been transferred from light to darkness and when they have been transferred from darkness to light. this is the way the phenomena look to me: in the knowable the last thing to be seen. whenever he saw one that "But a man were intelligent. "And what about this? Do you suppose it is anything surprising. you'll not mistake my expectation. Liken the domain revealed through sight to the prison home. if indeed this. and to dispute about the way these things are understood by don't — — men who have "It's " never seen justice itself? not at all surprising. and that with considerable effort. too. I said. come from acts of divine contemplation to the human evils. and wouldn't be said of him that he went up b c and came back with his eyes corrupted. he wouldn't laugh [ 196 ] . "and join me in supposing this. and that it's not even worth trying to go up? And if they were somehow able to get their hands on and kill the man who attempts to release and lead up wouldn't they kill him?" "No doubt about it. I said. it provided truth and intelligence and that the man who is going to act prudently in private or in public must see it." 1 said. he said. join you in supposing that. And if he held that these same things happen to a soul too. — is confused and unable to make anything out. too. itself sovereign." he said. Surely that's likely. my dear Glaucon. if 518 a "he would remember that there are two kinds of disturbances of the eyes. in the intelligible. too." he said.

this art takes as given that sight is there. the more evil it accomplishes?" t» "Most certainly. it is dazzled by the greater brilliance. as though they were putting sight into blind eyes. "So it seems. ^ "However." he said. "indicates that this power is in the soul of each. it e prudence is more than anything somehow more dinever loses its power. And then he would deem the first soul happy for its condition and its life. but not rightly turned nor looking at what it ought to look at. it is in darkness for come from a want of being accustomed. Rather. useless and harmful. so ^ that the sharper it sees. They presumably assert that they put into the soul knowledge that isn't in it. if he wanted to laugh at the second soul." "be an art of this turning which this power can most easily and efficiently be turned around. "There would. on the other hand. and accomplishes this object. the other virtues of a soul. around.BookVU / 517a-519b socrates/glaucon without reasoning but would go on to consider whether." he said. are probably ^ somewhat close to those of the body. while the virtue of exercising vine. while he would pity the second. "if this part of such a nature were trimmed m earliest childhood and its ties of kinship with becoming were cut ^^ off ^like leaden weights." "Yes." I said. don't we?" d "Yes. his laughing in this case would be less a laugh of scorn than would his laughing at the soul which has come from above out of the light. or whether. how shrewdly their petty soul sees and how sharply it dis^ tinguishes those things toward which it is turned." "But the present argument. 518 a going from greater lack of learning to greater brightness.^ and that the instrument with "Then. concerned with the way in "Therefore. brighter life." "What you say is quite sensible. not an art of producing sight in it." I said." he said. Or haven't you yet reflected about the men who are said to be vicious but % wise. again. if this is true. as they are called." I said. And. And we affirm that this is the good." he said. these things: education c which each learns just as an eye is not able to turn toward the light from the dark without the whole body must be turned around from that which is coming into being together with the whole soul until it is able to endure looking at that which is and the brightest part of that — — which is. b : "we must hold the following about what the professions of certain men assert is not it to be. which eating and such pleasures as well as seems. "they do indeed assert that. therefore. but according to the way it is turned. For they are really not there beforehand and are later produced by habits and exercises. it 1 519 a — b [ 197 ] . showing that it f doesn't have poor vision although it is compelled to serve vice. it becomes useful and helpful or." I said.

" he to said. just as it does those things toward which it now is their refinements naturally attach to the soul — turned. nor would those who have been allowed to spend their time in education continuously to the end the former because they don't have any single goal in life at which they must aim in doing everything they do in private or in public." "What's that?" "To remain there. but in order that it may use them in binding the city together." I said. then. "Are we to do them an injustice. "is to compel the best natures go to the study which we were saying before is the greatest. but rather that while compelling them besides to care we will say just things to them for and guard the others. not to permit them what is now permitted. believing they have emigrated to a colony on the Isles of the — Blessed^ while they are still alive?" "True. harmonizing the citizens by persuasion and compulsion. I say. and." I said. "I did forget. when they have gone up and seen sufficiently." "What?" he said. it were rid of them and turned around toward the tru things. "And what about this? Isn't it likely." "Well. "that it's not the concern of law that any one class in the city fare exceptionally well. " he said. cities it is fitting for them not to participate in the labors of For they grow up spontaneously against the will of the regime in each. this same part of the same human beings would also see them most sharply. " to be among us. And it produces such men in the city not in order to let them turn whichever way each wants." "That's true. I said. that those who are without education and experience of truth would never be adequate stewards of a city. and a nature that grows by itself and doesn't owe its rearing to anyone has justice on its side when it is not eager to pay on those [ 198 ] ." he said." I said. d "Then our job as founders. We'll say that when such men come to be injustice to the philosophers who come b in the other cities. "and necessary. but it contrives to bring this about in the city as a whole. the latter because they won't be willing to act. to see the good and to go up that ascent. " e 520 a "and not be willing to go down again among those prisoners or share their labors and honors. "consider that we won't be doing I said. making them share with one another the benefit that each is able to bring to the commonwealth.SOCRATES/CLAUCON THE REPUBLjpS "1 519 b and turn its vision down ward if. and make them live a worse life when a better is possible for them?" "My friend." "It's likely. whether they be slighter or more serious. Glaucon. you have again forgotten. as a c consequence of what was said before.

" he said. and you'll know what each of the phantoms is." he said." [ 199 ] . For here alone will the really rich rule. as though it were some great good. But if beggars." I said. "If you discover a life are going to rule. it isn't possible. each in his turn. not in a dream as the we have 520 b c many cities nowadays are governed by men who fight over shadows with one another and form factions for the sake of ruling." he said. "For surely tions on just ruling as we shall be laying just injuncmen. one within the family— destroys these men themselves and the rest of the city as well. ^'any other life that despises political offices b other than that of true philosophy?" "No.Book VII / 519b-521b socrates/glaucon the price of rearing to anyone." it. just. each of them will certainly approach a necessary thing—which is the opposite of what is done by rule in every city. But the truth is surely this: that city in which those who are going to rule are least eager to rule is necessarily governed in the way that is best and freest from faction. "Do you suppose our pupils will disobey us when they hear this and be unwilling to join in the labors of the city. And.'^ "Impossible. in getting habituated to it. and of what it is a phantom. rich in a good and prudent life. When ruling becomes a thing fought over. it is possible that your well-governed city will come into being." I said. and good things. otherwise. "Of course. into the common dwelling of the others and get habituated along with them to seeing the dark things. men hungering for want of private goods. the city will be governed by us and by you in a state of waking. because you have seen the truth about fair. "I don't. such a war— a domestic war. And thus. you will see ten thousand times better than the men there." e those who now better than ruling for those comrade." "That's the it is. 'But you begotten for yourselves and for the rest of the city like leaders and kings in hives. rich not in gold but in those riches required by the happy man." he said. while living the greater part of the time with one another in the pure region. However." "But men who aren't lovers of ruling must go^ to rival lovers will fight. way my who 521 a "That's very true. go to public affairs supposing that in them they must seize the good. So you must go down. by Zeus. while the one that gets the opposite kind of rulers is governed in the opposite d way. each in his turn. "Most certainly. you have been better and more perfectly educated and are more able to participate in both lives. "Have you.

" he said. transmitting by harmony a certain harmoniousness." "Then the study we are seeking must have addition to the former one. and who have other honors and a better life than the the political life?" c "No one else. would be a study to draw the soul from becoming to being? And. mustn't." "No." "Of course. "Do you want us now to consider in what way such meri will come into being and how one will lead them up to the light." d "Most certainly." music. "was the antistrophe^ to gymnastic." he said." "Now e previously they were educated by us in gymnastic and so. akin to these. Glaucon." "That was he said. For "So 522 a oversees growth and decay in the body. But as for a study directed toward something b of the sort you are now seeking. 521 b "Who else will you compel to go to the guarding of the city than men who are most prudent in those things through which a city jj best governed. not knowledge. so far as we described it before?" "But it. if you remember." "What then. of "It course. wouldn't. "And gymnastic." he said. as day. as I speak. it is wholly engaged with coming into being and passing away.SOCRATEs/gLAUCON the REPUBLjr." it wouldn't be the study it we are seeking. And connected with it were certain other habits. there was nothing of the kind in it." looked that way. it it the turning of a soul around from a is seems. whether they were tales or speeches of a truer sort. [ 200 ] . I think of this. just as some men are said to have gone from Hades up to the gods?"^ "How could I not want to?" he said. Weren't we saying that it's necessary for these men to be champions in war when they are young?"^ "Yes. conveyed by speeches." this further charac- teristic in "What?" "It mustn't be it useless to warlike men. It ediipated the guardians through habits. this wouldn't be the twirling of a shelF but day that is like night to the true that ascent to what is which we shall truly affirm to be philosophy." "And is music. "Then." "Then mustn't we consider what studies have such a power?" "Of course. we were saying that. and by rhythm a certain rhythmicalness. "if that can be.

"notice the same thing do in this study?' i ^ p'ay probably is •lead to intellection." he i I "The art of war too?" I "Most necessarily.Book VII 1 521b-523a socrates/glaucojst "Your reminder nothing of the there be that ^^chanical." study necessary for a e we not then." "What kind of thing?" "For example. "if we have nothing left to take besides take something that applies to them all. you demonic man. "For. I going to be a I human being. this common thing that all kinds of art. Or isn't it the case vvdth them that every kind of art and knowledge is comr c 'pelled to participate in them?" said. but I should say rather." said. And. "The lowly business." I said. Join me in llooking at the things distinguish for myself as leading or not leading [ 201 ] ." he "Shall said. a thing that it is necessary for everyone to learn among his first studies. what could this? For all the arts surely seemed to be meis left 522 b "Certainly they were. "I shall attempt to make I at least my opinion plain. succinctly. what kind of general do you suppose I events. "How do you mean?" he said. what other study jErom now separate music. is one of ^those things we are seeking that by nature but no one uses it rightly. gymnastic. I mean by this. as though before that they were uncounted and Agememnon fdidn't know how many feet he had. "and knowledge use as a supplement to themselves." I said. thought." these. the two." k "Do you." "What?" "It I said. it had But Glaucon. really. let's I said. "of distinguishing the one." "What's that?" he said." he "At all Palamedes is constantly most ridiculous general. then. "in the tragedies d the was?" I I. said. as a thing that in every 523 a apt to draw men toward being." I said. if he really didn't know how to fcount?!^ And. "if he's going to have any professional knowl- ^-edge of the order of the army. like me is quite precise. number and calculation. "if this I was true." he said. "A strange one. and the arts?" "Come. if this is the case. said. and the three. Or haven't you I showing up Agamemnon as a pnoticed that he says that by discovering number he established the Idispositions for the army at Ilium and counted the ships and everything lelse. yet." is to sort. "Very much so. "set dov^ai as a Iwarrior the ability to calculate and to number?" if he's ^ "Most of all.

I show." "You have hardly got my meaning. 1 said. "are all those that don't at the same time go over to the opposite sensation." I said." "Plainly you mean things that appear from far ofiF. " [ 202 ] . "Think of them while I'm speaking as Now consider this about them for me. while others bid it in every way to undertake a consideration because sense seems to pro- c duce nothing healthy. "it isn't likely that anything of the sort would be " e apt to summon it's or awaken the " activity of intellect." I said. But the ones that do go over 1 class among those that summon the intellect. "No. In all these things the soul of the is. "and shadow paintings. and the middle. regardless of whether the object strikes the senses from near or far will see my meaning more would be three fingers —the clearly this way: these." I said. at the For the sight at no point same time the opposite of a "No. and in this d respect it makes no difference whether it's extremes. and it reports to the soul that the same thing is sensed by it as both hard and soft? tleness adequately." if they were being seen up close. or whether it's thick or thin. "Here. its when the But you sensation doesn't reveal one thing any more than opposite. "^i "Certainly. "Show. "if you can make it out. smallest." "Now what about this? Does the sight see their bigness and Ht- 524 a and does it make no difference to it whether a finger hes in the middle or on the extremes? And similarly with the touch. or anything else of the sort." he said." he said. "it doesn't." he said. and agree or disagree so that we may see more clearly whether this is as I divine it to be. the sense set over the hard is also compelled to be set over the soft. many is not compelled to ask the " intellect what a finger is indicates to the soul that the finger finger.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLjq " 523 a to what we are speaking of. "Then. "What?" "Surely each of them looks equally like a finger. the second. for thickness and thinness or softness and hardness? And do the other senses reveal such things without insufficiency? Or doesn't each of them do the following: first. what do you mean?" he said. off. we say. that some objects of sensation do not b summon the intellect to the activity of investigation because they seem to be adequately judged by sense. "The ones that don't summon the intellect. not likely. whether it's seen in the middle or on the white or black." "Then." he said.

" he said. this was what that I was just trying to convey in saying some things are apt to it summon thought. "For if the one is adequately seen. while others are not." "But sight. while all those that strike the sense at the same time those that do not." one or two. sumdetermine whether each of the things reported to course. "these are strange interpretations received by the soul and require further consideration. too. or is grasped by [ 203 ] ." we say." I said. if For is one and both two. first tries to it is such cases a soul. however. itself by itself." summon as their opposites. "Isn't necessary." he said. "it's likely that in moning "Of "If calculation and intellect. the soul would not think the inseparable will think the two as as two but as one. but mixed up together." he said. "In order to clear this and little. then." "Quite right. it was on this ground that we called the one intelligible and the other visible. too. "Well." I said. not up the intellect was compelled to see big mixed up together but distinguished. if it indicates that the heavy is light this sensation indicates by the hard. "Figure it out on the basis of what was said before. "and in my opinion it is so. separate." "Then. doing the opsight did. indeed. now I "I can't conceive. if it says that the and the light heavy?" "Yes." "Right.Book Vll / 523a-524d glaucon/socrate "So as to it does. won't each of the two appear to be to ferent and be one?" each it "Yes. Isn't that so?" "Yes. not separated." "Therefore." he said." "What then? To which of the two do number and the one seem to belong?" "Well. "Isn't from here that it first occurs to us to ask what the big and the little are?" "That's entirely certain. indicates same and what the sensation of the light and of the heavy by the light and heavy." "And so."' he said. be at a loss what is thing also soft. defining as apt to tellection." I said. are not apt to arouse in- understand." posite of what the it Irue. saw big and little." dif- it appears to be two. it 524 "that in such cases the soul .

But if some opposition to it is always seen at the same time. and in this case. is "And our guardian "Then to both warrior and philosopher." c it would be fitting. they would be among the studies we are necessary for a warrior to learn them for the sake of his because he must rise up out of becoming and take hold of being or else never become skilled dispositions for the army."^^ to "Quite }) so." "Certainly. but for war and for ease of turning the soul itself around from becom- and ing to truth and being. so that nothing looks as though it were one more than the opposite of one." "In what way?" he said. to set this study down in law persuade those who are going to participate in the greatest things in the city to go to calculation and to take it up. not after the fashion of private men. and to ask what the one itself is." I said.SOCRAWGI. "now that the study of calculation has been mentioned. "And further." d "What you say is very fine. It's it seems." I said. a soul would be compelled to be at a loss and some other 525 a make an investigation." it "Then looks as if they lead toward truth. then there would now be need of something to judge. possesses this characteristic to a very high degree." "Preternaturally so. further." he said. For we see the same thing at the same time as both one and as an unlimited multitude. as we were saying about the finger. [ 204 ] . And thus the study of the one would be among those apt to lead and turn around toward the contemplation of what is!' "Surely.CON THE REPUBLIC sense." "And. the arts of calculation and number are both wholly concerned with number." "That's so.. not practicing it for the sake of buying and selling like merchants or tradesmen. it 524 e would not draw men toward being. with respect to the one. "won't it be the same for all number?" "Of course. "the sight." "If this is the case with the one." he said. I recognize how subtle it is and how in many ways it is useful to us for what we want. setting in motion the intelligence within it. and for a philosopher at calculating. Glaucon. as seeking." "Therefore. but to stay with it until they come to the contemplation of the nature of numbers with intellection itself. if a man practices it for the sake of coming to know and not for trade." he said.

that in men who all virtually studies. "As suitable. then. It won't at all permit anyone to propose for discussion numbers that are attached to visible or tangible bodies. they laugh and won't permit it. " I said. they multiply." "Then. and in all other maneuvers ar- [ 205 ] . and must be educated in it." "Do you study to is see. " itself? most certainly does do he said. " I said. in which the one is as your axiom claims it to be each one equal to every other one. assaulting places. "What. "In pitching camp." "What you say is very true. gathering the it army together and drawing up in line. I "And." "I join my voice to yours. I said. my friend. further. If in the argument someone attempts to cut the one itself. For surely. don't suppose you would easily find many studies c that take greater effort in the learning and in the practice than this. what sort of numbers are you discussing. "Therefore we have settled on this one. who are slow. 'you surprising men. "And let's consider whether the study adjpining this one is in any way suitable." much he of it as applies to the business of war is plainly d said. even if they are benefited in no other way? "That's so. do you suppose. he said. It leads the soul powerupward and compels it to discuss numbers themselves. If you try to break it up into small coin. since evidently compels the soul use the intellect "It on the truth that. he said. if they are educated and given gymnastic in all make progress by becoming quicker than they were. would happen if someone were to ask them." "Certainly not.Book VII 1 524c-526e socrates/gi^ucon the very way we were just now saying. taking good care against the one's ever looking like it were not one but many pieces. for all these reasons this study shouldn't be neglected. without the slightest difference between them. "Or do you mean geometry?" the best natures " " " " "That's exactly it. "What is it? he said. and containing no parts within itself?' What do you suppose they would answer?" "I suppose they would answer that they are talking about those numbers that admit only of being thought and can be grasped in no "In 525 d fully e " 526 a other way." he said. you know the way of men who are clever in these things. are "What about this? Have you already observed by nature apt at calculation are naturally quick while those it. it " "that it's likely that this b really compulsory itself for us. Glaucon.

"What you say is right. all "In that they surely speak in a way that is as ridiculous as it is They speak as though they were men of action and were making and everything of the sort. it would make quite skilled in geometry or not." "Then. "What are they? he said. then. "That may well be agreed." 1 said." who take it up. "That not suitable. with respect to finer reception of studies. "and. is what we I 527 a "none of those who have even a little experience with geometry will dispute it with us: this kind of knowledge is exactly the opposite of what is said about it in the arguments of those "Well." he said. "It does so. And we say that this tendency is possessed by everything that compels the soul to turn around to the region inhabited by the happiest part of what is. "For geometrical knowing is of what is always.' 'adding. all I said. It must be considered whether its greater and more advanced part tends to make it easier to — e make out the idea of the good. if at becoming." [ 206 ] . " a "However. and not at " all c what is at any time coming into being and passing away. "the men in your beautiful city^^ must be enjoined in no way to abstain from geom" " etry. it is suitable." I said. "for such things only a small portion of geometry as of calculation ^would sufiRce." said. you noble man." affirm. For even " its by-products aren't " slight.' whereas the whole study is b surely pursued for the sake of knovving. "to the greatest extent possible. he said. the arguments for the sake of action. " "What you general said about war. in addition." "Then to the greatest extent possible. "Mustn't point?" we also come to an agreement about the following "What?" "That for it is for the sake of knowing what is always. it would draw the soul toward truth and be productive of philosophic understanding in directing upward what we now improperly direct downward." he said." said. of course. which is what the soul must by all means see." he said." "That's entirely certain. "How?" he necessary. "Then if geometry compels one it is to look at being. uttering sounds like squaring.slaucon/socrates the REPUBLIq itself 526 d mies make in the battle difference to a man whether he were and on marches. we surely know there is a and complete difference between the man who has been devoted to geometry and the one who has not.' 'applying.

" "You are amusing." he said. It's "Then. while all those who have had no a certain instrument of everyone's soul — e — it can be expected to believe you are talking nonno other benefit from these studies worth mentioning. with it being continuously and eagerly sought for. and by those who seek it. Socrates." I said. And those who seek for need a supervisor. he's hard to come by. "retreat a way. Or are you making the arguments for neither but chiefly for your own sake." "But." said. rather it's hard."i^ "Of in it that. To those who share your opinion about this. and then. an instrument more important to save than ten thousand eyes. for even now. at least to me." "And what about this? Shall we set astronomy down as the third? Or doesn't it seem to be the thing?" "It does. however. what you say will seem indescribably good. it is. Consider right here with which of these two kinds of men you are discussing. as things stand he wouldn't be obeyed by those given to seeking it because of their high opinion of themselves." I "Well." he said. although it is despised and cut short by the many. For with it alone is truth seen." in I said." he said. these men would obey. and what participates in depth. but no less so for generalship. to take this up is b the third dimension^^ next in order after the second. by Zeus. But if a whole city should join in supervising it and take the lead in honoring it. "there are two causes. "we went ahead and took But the right way is a solid motion before taking it up by itself. its character would come to light." he said. it doesn't seem to have been discovered yet.^'* What we took up as following geometry just now wasn't right. "we shall set it down. "to speak and ask and answer awareness sense. grudging anyone else who might be able to get some profit from them?" "I choose the latter. since they have no account to c [ 207 ] . without. it is feebly sought due to its difficulty." 527 c we set this down as the second study for the young?" he said. "Where was the mistake?" he "After a plane surface. Because no city holds it honor. at all of They see 528 a mostly for my own sake. "A better awareness of seasons. to trust that in these studies one that is destroyed and blinded by other practices is purified and rekindled. then. surely the dimension of cubes and "Yes. "You are like a man who is afraid of the many in your not wanting to seem to command useless studies. months and years is suitable not only for farming and navigation." I said. "the difference is complete. in the first place. And.Book VII I 526d-528c glaucon/socrates "Yes. and. without whom they would not find it." d scarcely an ordinary thing. even when he's there." said. shall "Yes.

" he said." "What you say I is right. And if a man. it has quite an effect in causing the soul to look downward. "Then." said." he said. which treats the motion of what has depth. due to the ridiculous state of the search for it. "it's yourself of what the study of the things above [ 208 ] ." "Perhaps it's plain to everyone except me. you would probably believe he contemplates with his intellect and not his eyes." present just if said. then. for my part. indeed. due to its charm. But just what did you mean when you said that opinion. nevertheless in the face of all this it it grows perforce." now being left "That's likely. b c no ignoble conception you have for is. you presumably that which treats of the plane. attempts to learn something of sensible things. But set tell me more clearly as down what you meant just now. taken up now by those who lead men up to philosophy. now I shall 529 a praise it in the way that you approach it." useful. rather than down." "I am paying the just penalty." he said. "The investigation of the dimension with depth was next in order. made me my "And on the basis of the reproach you vulgar praise of astronomy. I skipped over it after geometry and said astronomy. I." he said." I geometry "Yes. am unable to hold that any study makes a soul look upward other than the one that concerns what is and is invisible. "it is exceptionally charming. but." he said. "Well. "You are right in reproaching me." "My haste to go through everything quickly is the cause of my e being slowed down. even if he learns while floating on his back on land or sea." "Then how "As it is is it?" said. Even if a man were to learn something by tilting his head back and looking at decorations on a ceiling." I my said. I would deny that he ever learns—for there is no knowledge of such things—or that his soul looks up. In my opinion it's plain to everyone that astronomy compels the soul to see what's above and leads it there away from the things here. that's not the way he it is." I said. So it wouldn't be at all surprising if came d "Yes. assuming that the study that a city pursues for it. Perhaps your belief is a fine one and mine innocent." "How do you mean?" he "In said. "In my opinion. "as the fourth study let's set is dovim astronaside will be omy. gaping up^^* or squinting down. "at first you set down astronomy after geometry but later you withdrew." I said.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLJp way it is 528 c give of the to light. Socrates.

may be believed to be the fairest and most precise of such things." I said." of the I said. "the decoration in the heaven must be used as patterns for the sake of learning these other things. must be grasped by argument and thought. "at least now that I am listening to shall also ' ^ I said. we pursue astronomy. "don't you suppose that a man who is really an astronomer will have the same persuasion in looking at the movements of the stars? He will hold that the craftsman^^ of heaven composed it and what's in it as beautifully as such works can be composed." he said. those movements in which the really fast and the really slow—in true number and in all the true figures are moved with respect to one another and in their turn move what is contained in them." I said. or any other proportion in them. A man experienced in geometry would. not sight. "I if ' same kind. if it's going to be studied in a way that's helpful for what we are talking about?" 529 c : • : J "As follows. But as for the proportion of night to day. if by really taking part in astronomy we are going to convert the prudence by nature in the soul from uselessness to usefulness. Hence won't he consider it strange to seek in d — e 530 a b every way to is grasp their truth?" "That you." he said. doubles." c "The task you prescribe." my opinion. since they are embroidered on a visible ceiling." "Therefore. of these to a month. just as if one were to come upon diagrams exceptionally carefully drawn and worked out by Daedalus or some other craftsman or painter. "by the use of problems. on seeing such things. presumably believe that they are fairest in their execution but that it is ridiculous to consider them seriously as though one were to grasp the truth about equals. "These decorations in the heaven. But have you any suitable study to suggest?" [ 209 ] . They. "Then. we suppose our prescriptions in the rest will also be are to be of any help as lawgivers. Or do you suppose otherwise?" "Not at all." I said. what is now done in astronomy. as in geometry. of a month to a year." "How could it be anything but ridiculous?" he said. of course." he said. don't you think he will consider strange the man who holds that these are always the same and deviate in no way at all? For these things are connected with body and are visible. and we shall let the things in the heaven go.Book VII / 528c-530c glaucon/socrates astronomy must be studied in a way contrary to the one in which they now study it." V "is many times greater than "And. and of the rest of the stars to these and to one another. "Therefore. but they fall far short of the true ones.

rather. That s likely." he said." we these harmony. But throughout keep a guard over our all of this we shall interest. as I all. several. and their denial and imposture. "those good men who wont profong the put them to the torture." I said. anything that doesn't always saymg about aspoint where everything ought to arrive. They "Yes. "is Useful. "However." anythmg 531 a "What's that?" attempt to "That those whom we shall be rearing should never come out at the learn anything imperfect." he I said. and why in "The thing you are demonic." J said. they are. rackingthem on the pegs.^^ end to the image men I mean but those whom we just now by saying said m do the same thing the astronomers do." probable. by the gods. of which heard accords and don't consideration rise to problems. "since it's big job." he said "and how ridiculous name certain notes alongside. I haven't/' he said. as though 'dense'20 b Some say they they were hunting a voice from the neighbors' house. d but those that are evident even "What to us are two. the good. Or don't you know that they do something similar mony too? For. Both put ears before "You mean. Glaucon. to the each case." J are they?" I "In addition to astronomy " "What's that?" "It is said "there is its antistrophe. we'll inquire of the Pythagoreans what they else mean about them and if there is besides them." said. for the quest after the fair and "but pursued in any other way it is useless. numbers are concordant and which not. They question about are going to these numbers They seek the that it isn't speaking of. "Then. while is like those already the intelligence. is the smallest distinctly hear still another note in bet^veen and that this interval by which the others insist that it rest must be measured. as the shall we do?" a "That. and we. measuring the heard accords and sounds agamst one ^^ another. knowledge are in a way Pythagoreans say and agree. as we were just with hartronomy.glaucon/sochates THE REPUBLIq "at least not right now." harass the strings and and set their ears I said. I image with the blows and the accusation struck by the plectrum. fixed on astronomy. sounded." he said [ 210 ] . Or what I akin. "that as the eyes are so the ears are fixed on these two kmds of harmonic movement." | in one form but 1 "motion presents itself not suppose. they labor without profit like the astronomers. I will put an against the strings. said. Perhaps be able to tell them i whoever is wise will 530 c No.

but it is imitated by the said that sight at last tries to look at the animals power of sight. "with the exception of a very few whom I have encountered. "But it's a very big job you speak of. themselves and at stars themselves and then finally at the sun itself." "But. and looking instead at the divine appearances in water and at shadows of the things (that are." performs? I said." he said. "Or don't we know that all of this is a prelude to the song22 itself which must be learned? For surely it's not your opinion that the men who are clever at these things are dialecticians." d [ 211 ] . also has the quality of '" c a shadow of a phant6m—all this" activity of the arts.Book VII / 530c-532d socrates/glaucon "And I suppose." "To he said." "Do you mean the prelude or what?' I said." "That's entirely certain." "I. . when the use of — j b tbther man was then at the end of the visible. he comes to the very end of the intelligible realm just as that Jalso. "the "Glaucon. and draws conclusions as to how they are akin to one another." I said. when judged in comparison with the sun. Socrates. "What then? Don't you "Of course. and. but otherwise it is." call this journey dialectic?" "Then. . "that if the inquiry into all the things we 531 c have gone through arrives at their community and relationship with one another. "the release from the bonds and the turning around from the shadows to the phantoms and the light. then the concern with them contributes something to what we want. which we went through. divine that this is the case." he said." I said. "was it ever your opinion that men who are unable to give an account and receive one will ever know anything of what we say they must know?" this question too." the song itself that dialectic 532 a the realm of the intelligible. the persisting inability to look at the animals and the plants and the sun's light. too. So It is in We a man tries by discussion—by means of argument without any of the senses to attain to each thing itself that is and doesn't give up before he grasps by intellection itself that which is good |itself. I just as previously what I'templation of ' what is is clearest in the body was led to the conbrightest in the region of the bodily and the visible. once there. the way up from the cave to the sun. and is not a labor without profit. "isn't this at last answer is no.soul up to the contemplation of what is best in the things that are." I said." d "No. by Zeus. rather than as before at shadows of phantoms cast by a light ithat. has the power to release and leads what is best in the ." he said.

" I said. but rather the truth itself. as it were. destroying the hypotheses. "Then. my dear Glaucon. When the beginning is what one doesn't know. then. as it seems. also. are unable to give an account of them. and finally what are its ways. but in another same—since must all it's not only to be returned is it way hard not to accept. and the end and what comes in betwe:en are woven out of what isn't known. "It seems to 32 d "I me extremely hard to accept. and an end of his journey." "You will no longer be able to follow.^^ dialectic gently draws it forth and leads it up above. All the now that these things must be heard." h "At least. into exactly what forms it is divided." I said. what contrivance is there for ever turning such an agreement into knowledge?" "None. but they haven't the capacity to see it in full awakeness so long as they use hypotheses and. or to generation and is composition." I said. But you would no longer be seeing an image of what we are saying. however. "although there wouldn't be any lack of eagerness on my part. And as for c d rest." he said. would lead at last toward that place which is for the one who reaches it a haven from the road. or to the care of what the is grown or put together." he said." he said. "no one will dispute us when we say that some other inquiry methodically^^ attempts with respect to everything to grasp—about each several thing arts are directed to human itself—what each is. but they many times in the future—taking for granted that this as has through e just as now been said. let's proceed to the song itself and go we went through the prelude. but they require another name. using the arts we described as assistants and helpers in the turning them kinds of knowledge several times. For these." "And. "it's proper to insist on that too. to the beginning itself in order to make it secure. Isn't it so?" "Of course. one that is brighter than opinion but around. those that we said do lay hold of something of what geometry and the arts following on it—we observe that they do — dream about what is. Out of habit called we [ 212 ] . leaving them untouched. "only the dialectical way of inquiry proceeds in this direction. while it is in no ter of the other way possible?" "Yes. But that there is some such thing to see must be insisted on. and when the eye of the soul is really buried in a barbaric bog. that the power of dialectic alone could reveal it to a man experienced in the things we just went through. at least as it looks to me. So tell what the charac- 53 a power of dialectic is. For all the other opinions and desires. Whether it is really so or not can no longer be properly insisted on. and.j^ucon/sockates the republic accept this as so.

" he said. I wouldn't." "Then. will as a law to them that they pay special on the basis of which they will be able to question and answer most knowledgeably?" "Then you set it down attention to the education [ 213 ] . going through every test. to call the first part knowledge. won't you deny that he has intelligence with respect to it?" rest. "about the share your opinion. "Isn't it also the same with the good? Unless a man is able to separate out the idea of the good from all other things and distinguish it in the argument. I b "And do you for the he does?" he said." "No. But as for the proportion between the things over which these are set and the division into two parts of each—the opinable and the intelligible—let's let that go. I believe. previously distinguished it. Thought was. intellection. to the extent he's not able to give an account of a thing to himself and another.Book VII / 532d-534d socrates/glaucon dimmer than knowledge." a consideration about things so great as those lying before us. and the fourth imagination. "just "Then it will be acceptable. the third trust. and that. there is no place for dispute about a name when isn't. Glaucon. the word by which we is 533 d e But. and as being is to coming into being. opinion. or any other good? And if he somehow lays hold of some phantom of it. so is intellection to opinion. the second thought." "Well. taken in by dreams and slumbering out his present life. as for those children of yours whom you are rearing and educating in speech. and. so is knowledge to trust and thought to imagination." as before. if you should ever rear them in deed. I don't sup- pose that while they are as irrational as lines^® you would let them rule in the city and be the sovereigns of the greatest things. as for the man who isn't able to do so." he said. and the former two. as it were in battle—eager to meet the test of being rather than that of opinion—he comes through all this with the argument still on its feet. in my opinion. you will say that he does so by opinion and not knowledge. insofar as I 534 a am able to follow^." "No. "I shall certainly say all that." also call that man dialectical who grasps the reason being of each thing? And. there he said. by Zeus.^^ I said. before waking up here he goes to Hades and could I affirm "How that c falls finally asleep there?" d "Yes. and the latter two taken together. and as intellection is to opinion. you will deny that such a man knows the good itself." he said. so as not to run afoul of arguments many times longer than those that have been gone through. And opinion has to do with coming into being and intellection with being.

" he said. "True." he said. "in setting 534 e "I shall join "Is it down this law. "unless he has an entirely good nature." "At any rate. suppose that h must be chosen. while he a lover of learning or of hstening and isn't an inquirer. "is a prerequisite for them. the best looking. "Well." placed dialectic at the top of the studies like a coping stone. it is end?" said. but hates the all that. you blessed man. is up must not loving half the labor while having no taste "the is man who a to take it for the other half. what sort "How could I not remember?" he said. Lame as well is the man whose love of labor directed exclusively to the other extreme. you determine them to be?" "Keenness at studies. insofar as possible. "What do you mean? he " said. and that no other study could I said. of course." "What do. "the distribution ahead of you. Not " befallen bastards. but who also possess those qualities in their nature that are conducive to this education. its but that the treatment of the studies 535 a has already reached "Yes. But besides this. then." result I said. you know. so far as most of the requirements go. of men we selected?" former selection of the rulers. dishonor has men who aren't worthy take it up." "that we have rightly be set higher than this one." said. "the current mistake in philosophy — as a of which." he I "Well. a man with a memory and who is firm and wholly a lover of labor must be sought. Or in what way do you suppose anyone will be willing both to perform the labors of the body and to complete so much study and practice?" "No one would. your opinion. and learning without difficulty. one must seek for men who are not only by disposition noble and tough. d "In the first place. are far more likely to be cowardly in severe studies than in gymnastic." he said. as philosophy — ^is that we also said before. be lame in his love of labor. is still my opinion. For souls. we do "That's plainly the next question." I said.jvucon/socrates the REPUBLIq with you. To it?" whom shall we give these studies and in the how he shall said. The labor is closer to home in that it is the soul's privately and not shared in those are the natures that common c with the body." I said. but the genuine should have taken it up. "The steadiest and most courageous must be preferred and." I said." [ 214 ] . "And. then." "Do you remember. This the case when man is a lover of gymnastic isn't and the hunt and loves labor involved in is all the labor done by the body.

as I was talking 1 looked at Philosophy and. "would indeed be shameful. I seem to have been vexed and said what I had to say too seriously as though my spiritedness were aroused and " also c against those who are responsible. seeing her underservingly spattered viith mud. he said. to wallowing in lack of learning?" "That's entirely certain. all way it is. but is content to receive the unwilling lie and." I said. by Zeus. "we must take good care of b bringing men of another sort to it." he listener. both finding it hard to endure in itself and becoming incensed when others lie. the pre- paratory education required for dialectic must be put before sion to learn. but in this one that isn't admissible. not the way you seemed to me." "Most certainly. like a svdnish beast. he's less able to do that than to run. said. the study of calculation and geometry and children. "that we were playing and spoke rather intensely. "And with respect magnificence and the all to moderation. we shall do exactly the opposite pour even more ridicule over philosophy." he said. and all the great and numerous labors belong "Necessarily. when it is caught somewhere being ignorant." such things since." he said. to the young." he said. "But I seem to have been somewhat ridiculously affected just now." I said. "I forgot. and we shall save the city and the regime. "That. the speaker. I 536 a said. while. if we bring men straight of limb and understanding to so important a study and so important a training and educate them. "And let's not forget that in our former selection we were picking old men. "won't we class as maimed a soul that hates the willing lie. "And likewise with respect to truth. "that's "No." I said." I said." all "Well then. the "But to me." I said. When a private man and a city don't know how to make a complete consideration of such things." them as and the instruction must not be given the aspect of a compul- [ 215 ] ." he said. For we mustn't trust Solon when he says that in growing old a man is d able to learn much." "and courage and the parts of virtue.Book VII 1 534c-536d glaucon/socrates "What you say is very true. in "So. Justice herself viill not blame us." "How's that?" he said. a special guard must be kept for man who is bastard and the one who is genuine. For. isn't vexed but easily 535 d e accommodates itself. for whatever services they happen to need they unawares employ lame men and bastards "That's just the " as friends or rulers.

" he said." I said. is not. and that not the least. "remains fast in those who who And receive tical is it. whether it is c "Then. but no forced study abides in a soul." he said. and you must and the one that not. then. "the boy who shows himself always readiest must be chosen to join a select num"I ber." pies?" do remember. "the free man ought not to learn any study Forced labors performed by the body don't make the body any worse. but rather play. "that we also said that the children must be led to war on horseback as spectators. one of their tests." I said. you will have to consider who among them most meets them and is steadfast in studies and steadfast in war and the rest of the duties established by law. "After they are released from compulsory gymnastic." he said." "At least. "don't use force in training the children in the studies. "of the nature that is dialec- j For the man who is capable of an overview one who isn't. "Then in all these. "For this is a time." jy "At what age?" he said." "True. studies. like the pup- "Because. only such study. you best of men. "those among the twenty-year-olds are given preference will receive greater honors than the others." "I share your belief. you will give preference among the preferred and assign greater honors. during which it is impossible to do anything else." he said. they must be led up near and taste blood. when they are over thirty.glaucon/socrates IHili KiLrUULIC 536 d e "Why slavishly. if it's safe anywhere. and. at the same time." I said." it is "And the greatest is test." I said. and fears. "Therefore." I said." I said." he said. And." I said.^s And to these men. not?" "is? a I said. labors. after this time. "in terms of these tests." "What you say makes sense. dialectical while the [ 216 ] . is what each will show himself to be in gymnastic. In that way you can also better discern what each is naturally directed toward. the various studies acquired without any particular order by the children in their education must be integrated into an overview^^ which reveals the kinship of these studies with one another and with the nature of that which is." "Of course. Weariness and sleep are enemies of studies. "Don't you remember. in turn. two or three years." he said. "Well.

he wouldn't care." "That's to be expected." I said.Book VII / 536d-538c socrates/glaucon them with the power of dialectic. unless he is by nature particularly decent." "Of what in particular?" he said. I divine that now he would relax his honor and zeal for these people and intensify them for the flatterers. "Surely its students. testing 537 d job requiring a great deal of guarding. "reared in much wealth. "that they are so affected. and less likely to disobey them in the important things than the flatterers." I said." - he said. and then again when he did know it? Or do you want "Very to listen much 538 a while "That's I do the divining?" what I want. be persuaded by them a great deal more than before. less likely to do or say anything unlawful to them. then." I said. who on reaching manhood becomes aware that he does riot belong to these pretended parents and isn't able to find those who really gave him birth." so. and don't you sympathize?" "Why exactly should I?" he said." [ 217 ] . my comrade. "I divine that in the time when he doesn't know would be more likely to honor his father and his mother and the others who seem to be his kin than those who flatter him. "are filled full with lawlessness." "Everything you say." said. Surely what's just and fair by which we have from childhood convictions about we are brought up as by parents. you have a consider." he said. in the time when he didn't know about the change. "Don't you notice. And he would be less likely to overlook any of their needs. and have unconcealed relations with them. I "Well. And here. in a numerous and great family amidst many flatterers. who is able to release himself from the eyes and the rest of sense and go to that which is in itself and accompanies truth. "how great the practice of dialectic these days?" is the harm coming from e "What's that?" he said. "It is like the case of changeling child. when he has become aware of that which is." I said. Can you divine how he would be disposed toward the flatterers and toward those who made the change. obeying them as rulers and honoring them." he said. and begin to live according to their ways. For that father and the rest of the adoptive kin. "Do you suppose it's any wonder. "is just the sort of thing that would happen. But how does this image apply to those who take up arguthe truth he b c ments?" "Like this. "And." he said.

" "They certainly have." "That's so." he said. always using them to contradict. and as happen to I was just saying. they fall quickly into a profound disbelief of what they formerly [ 218 ] ." I said." "Isn't it to be expected." it are refuted. he will seem to have become an outlaw from having been a law-abiding man.^^ these men rather honor the ancestral things and obey them I said. like puppies enjoying pulling and tearing with argument at those who happen to be near. I suppose. and similarly about the just and good and the things he held most in honor—after that. and doesn't find the true ones. as rulers." 538 c d "Yes. the argument refutes him. "he'll neither honor nor obey them any longer in the same way. is it to be expected that he will go to any other sort of life than the one that flatters him?"^^ "No. and imitating those men by whom they "Quite "Isn't so. they misuse them as though it were play. and refuting him is so disposed. "that this is what will those who take up the study of arguments in this way. "Lest your thirty-year-olds be recipients of this pity." in that c "Then when they themselves refute many men and are refuted by many. mustn't you take every kind of precaution when they turn to arguments?" b he said. "Then. "And then suade there are other practices opposed to these." he said." "Then what?" "When 'What is a question is posed and comes to the man who many e the fair?'—and after answering what he heard from the lawgiver. "when he doesn't believe. too. they themselves refute others." "Then. They do not per- men who are at all sensible. it isn't. one great precaution not to let them taste of arguments while they are young? I suppose you aren't unaware that when lads get their first taste of them. that these things are honorable or akin to him. what do you suppose he'll do about honoring and obeying as rulers the things he heard from the lawgiver?" "Necessarily. "a preternatural tendency direction. possessing pleasures that flatter our soul and draw it to them." he said. times and in is many ways. reduces him to the opinion that what 539 a no more fair than ugly." he said." the law says "Necessarily." I said. as he did before.glaucon/sockates THE REPUBLlQ we do. don't they deserve much sympathy?" "And pity.

"And wasn't everything that was said before this also directed to precaution—that those with whom one shares arguments are to have orderly and stable natures. however. not as though he were doing a thing that is fine. each in his turn. "If a man is to devote himself exclusively to steady and strenuous participation in arguments exercising himself in a gymnastic that is the antistrophe of the bodily gymnastic will double the number of years devoted to gymnastic suffice?" "Do you mean six years. And as a result of this. "or four?" "Don't worry about that. they themselves and the philosophy become the objects of slander among the 539 c of men." he said. both in deed and in the brilliant b [ 219 ] . and themselves for the rest of their lives. after this. and they must be compelled to rule in the affairs of war and all the offices suitable for young men. they must be end." "How much time do you assign to this?" he said. private men." I said." he said. "Set it down at five. too. not as is done nowadays in sharing them with whoever chances by and comes to it without being suited for it. he drudges in politics and rules for the city's sake. so that they won't be behind the others in experience. "And when they are fifty years old." I said. they'll have to go down into that cave again for you. they go off everything." "Most — — e 540 a way when pulled in all directions. they must be compelled. must at last be led to the beams of their souls. "An older man." I said. lifting up compelled to look toward that which provides light for everything." "Very true." he said. but one that is necessary." "That's right. And. Forithe most part." he said. And thus always educating other like men and leaving them behind in their place as guardians of the city. but when his turn comes. "Fifteen years. Once they see the good itself. each one spends his time in philosophy.Book VII I 538c-540b socrates/glaucon believed. those who have been preserved throughout and are in every way best at knowledge. And here. "wouldn't be willing to participate in such madness. Now. And he himself will be more sensible and will make the practice of discussion more honorable instead of d more dishonorable. whole rest activity of you see. He will imitate the man who's willing to discuss and consider the truth rather than the one who plays and contradicts for the sake of the game. to use it as a pattern for ordering city. they must still be tested whether they will stand firm or give certainly.

d e what I have said applies any more to men than to women. you have. all those who are born among them with adequate natures." "What then?" I said." he said. it will itself be happy and most profit the nation in which it comes to be." "That is by far the quickest and easiest way." I said. Putting what is right and the honors coming from it above all. they will rear them—^far away from those dispositions they now have from their parents in their own manners and laws that are such as we described before. The if 540 h c to the Isles of the Blessed city makes public memorials is demons. that they are hard but in a way possible." he said. in my opinion [ 220 ] . "And how "All those in the city — it would come into being." he said. come to power in a city. and that it is possible in no other way than the one stated: when the true philosophers. stated well. "you have produced "Don't suppose that ruling men who ruling are wholly fair. with the city and the regime of which we were speaking thus established most quickly and easily. "if they are to share everything in common equally with the men. Socrates. Glaucon." what you ask." for is plain. they will provide for their own city." as to the Pythia in accord. they will despise the current honors and believe them to be illiberal and worth nothing. "Do you agree that the things we have said about the city and the regime are not in every way prayers." city "Isn't that enough already. and sacrifices to them to happy^i and divine men. and taking over their children. as "Just like a sculptor.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLIq and dwell. while taking what is just as the greatest and the most necessary. "for our arguments about this and the man like it? For surely it's plain what sort of man we'll say he has "It this to be. if it ever were to come into being. h in my opinion. And." "That's right." "How?" he 541 a said. too. and serving and fostering it." said. "And as argument has reached its end." he said. Socrates. who happen to be older than ten they will send out to the country." I "And women. if not. as we described it. either one or more.

as to possessions. has been agreed." 221 ] . we when the rulers are once b must take the lead and settle the soldiers in houses such as we spoke of before that have nothing private for anyone but are common for all. they will receive a wage annually from the — they — c others consisting of the bare subsistence required for their guarding. but that like champions of war and guardians. since we have comwhere we took the detour that brought us here so the same way. chil- dren and their entire education must be in practices in war and peace must be in common. "But come. women must be in common. This much has been agreed. I do remember. we presumably came to an agreement about what sort they are to have. And. that let's recall we can go back to right. and similarly the common. in addition to such houses. established." I said. and for city." "Yes. "that we supposed that no one must possess any of the things the others nowadays have." also accepted that "Furthermore. Glaucon: for a city that is 543 a going to be governed on a high level. if you remember. and their kings must be best in philosophy and with those among them who have proved "it respect to war." he said." "Yes. this wage they must say is take care of themselves and the rest of the "What you pleted this.BOOK VIII "All right." he said.

give me when then. we could consider whether the best man is happiest and the worst most wretched. the one called oligarchy. "that it is necessary that there also be as many forms of human characters as there are forms of regimes? Or do you suppose that the regimes arise 'from an oak or rocks'^ and not from the dispositions of the men in the cities. or whether it is otherwise. tipping the scale as it were. 'And just as I was asking which four regimes you meant. arising next in order." e "Therefore if there are five arrangements of cities. "is quite correct. the one that is praised by the many. when we have seen them all and agreed which man is best and which worst." I said. and second in place and second in praise." he said. "I don't at all think they arise from anything other than so this." "Surely. Anyhow. Or have you some other idea of a regime that fits into d some distinct form? For dynasties and purchased kingships and certain regimes of the sort are somewhere between these." he said. And you did this. and this regime's adversary." I said." "That's not hard. as though you had completed youjdescription of what concerns the city." "It won't be hard for you to hear them. in spite of the fact that you had a still finer city and man to tell of. as I remember. so that. a regime filled with throngs of evils. and then the noble tyranny at last. saying that you would class a city such as you then described." "Do you know.glaucon/socrates the REPUBLIq 543 c d 544 a b he said." 222 ] . Concerning the remaining regimes. you asserted that there are four forms it is worthwhile to have an account of. try to I tell the same hold again. Polemarchus and Adeimantus interrupted. you were saying that the other cities are mistaken if this one is right. draw the rest along with them?" "No." he said." "What you remember. and similarly with the men who are like these regimes. there would al- be five for the soul of private men. democracy. "You were presenting your arguments pretty much as you are doing now. and the man like it. and one would find them no less among the barbarians than the Greeks. "I myself really desire to hear what four regimes you meant." I said." "Well. c "And. in fact. and whose mistakes are worth seeing. and what you were going to say "If am able. "For those I mean are also the ones having names. the fourth and extreme illness of a city. which. like a wrestler. as it seems. then. that Cretan and Laconian regime."^ "At any rate." I said. "many strange ones are talked about. That's how you picked up the argument and got here. as good. excelling all of these." I put the same question.

and then." he I "be a reasonable way way for the ob- servation and judgment to take place. in any case." he said. But. of the subject we pro- posed for ourselves. just as we began by considering the various dispositions in the regimes before considering them in the private men." I said." said.'^ and shall we say that they speak to" us with high tragic talk." it composed of ever so few?" "Then. that's so. "let's try to tell the in which a timocracy would arise from an aristocracy." "That. we can set him in opposition to the most just man? If so. so must we now consider first the regime that loves honor— I can give no other name that is used for it in common parlance. since for everything that has come into being there is decay. supposing that to be the more luminous way. having gone to the city that is under a tyranny and seen it. and the tyrannic man. after having looked at democracy. then looking into a tyran"Yes. or by the argument that is now coming to light and pursue justice." "Well. as does Homer. In this way we may be persuaded either by Thrasymachus and pursue injustice. it will be "Something like this. it should be called either timocracy or timarchy. and after that oligarchy and an oligarchic man. Later. aristocracy. it d cannot be moved. a just. A city so 546 a [ 223 ] . so that seeing the most unjust man. as though they were speaking seriously. we can have a complete consideration of how pure justice is related to pure injustice with respect to the happiness and wretchedness of the men possessing them. to the Muses to tell us how 'faction first attacked. "is most certainly what must be done." we have already man of whom we described the man who he is is like the 544 e rightly assert that both good and 545 a we have described him. come. "how will our city be moved and in v/hat way will the auxiliaries and the rulers divide into factions against each e other and pray to among themselves? Or do you want us. we shall try to become adequate judges said." "It would. we'll view a democratic man." "Then. Glaucon. Or is it simply the case that change in every regime comes from that part of it which holds the ruling offices—when faction arises in it—while when it is of one mind.^ And. we shall consider the like man. and fourth. fixed in relation to the Laconian regime." "Must we next go through the worse men—the man who loves victory and honor. then. playing and jesting with us like children?" "How?" composed is hard to be moved. in turn. b c nic soul. not even a composition such as this will remain for all time. an oligarchic and a democratic man. in relation to this regime.Book VIII / 543c-S46a socrates/glaucon "Well. be "Yes.

first. the root four-three these children. or. when they. of elements that that c d Of mated with the five. Their predecessors will choose the best of rational. One of them is equal an equal number of times. pulled the regime toward money-making and the possession of land." he said." "What. for gymnastic. always breed war and hatred in the place where they happen to arise.socbates/glaucon the REPUBLIq 546 a dissolved. the gold and the silver—not being poor but rich by nature—led the souls toward virtue and the ancient establishment. for music. soul And this will be its dissolution: bearing and barrenness of and bodies come not only to plants in the earth but to animals on the earth when revolutions complete for each the bearing round of lives. comprising three distances and four limits." "And we'll say. "For they are Muses. "each of these two races. For a divine birth there is a circles. and these elements. houses. and silver. but it will pass them by. of one hundred cubes of the three. the children will have neither good natures nor good luck. Faction must always be said to be 'of this ancestry"^ wherever it happens to rise. make like and wax and wane. taken one hundred times over. if of irrational diameters. render everything conversable and unlike. produces two harmonies. come to the powers of their fathers. by the first number in which root and square increases." I said. and from there your young will become more unmusical. second. lacking two for each. thrice increased. since they are unworthy. on one side. "do the Muses say next?" "Once faction had arisen. on the other side. Although they are wise. "that what the Muses answer is right. which. for a human birth. and they will at some time beget children when they should not. the b period comprehended by a perfect number. they came to an agreement on a middle way: they [ 224 ] . The other is of equal length in one way but is an oblong. the journey is short. the iron and bronze." he said. for those whose journey is the opposite. the men you educated as leaders of the city will nonetheless fail to hit on the prosperous birth and barrenness of your kind with calculation aided by sensation." "Necessarijy. lacking one for each. once they arise. And rulers chosen from them won't be guardians very apt at testing Hesiod's races^ and yours gold and silver and bronze and iron. for ones with short lives are the opposite. while the other two. gold. Struggling and straining against one another. nevertheless. of one hundred rational diameters of the five." I said. e '47 a in turn. This whole geometrical number is sovereign of better and worse begettings.^ And when your guardians from ignorance of them cause grooms to live with brides out of season. and. they will as guardians first begin to neglect us by having less consideration than is required. but. And the chaotic mixing of iron with silver and of — b bronze with gold engenders unlikeness and inharmonious irregularity.

"this is the source of this transformadistributed land viously tion. men naturally more directed to war than to peace. but. "Yes. they will love to spend other people's money." "And such men." he said. "will desire money just as those in oligarunder cover of darkness pay fierce honor to gold and silver. because it is a middle. and they will have walls around their houses. and that it will also have something peculiar to itself?" "That's the way it is. "which is a mixture of bad and good. exactly like private nests. in holding the wiles and stratagems of war in honor. how will it be governed? Or is it evident that in some things it will imitate the preceding regime. running away from the la^ like boys from a father." "You certainly speak of a reigme. be stingy with money because they honor it and don't acquire it openly. and b "Very true. in its provision for common meals and caring for gymnastic and the exercise of war in all such ways won't it imitate the preceding regime?" d — "Yes." "This will be the way of the transformation." he said." he said. pushed on by desire. "but due to the dominance of "Then they will also — c [ 225 ] ." 547 c "Wouldn't aristocracy this regime. because they possess storehouses and domestic treasuries where they can deposit and hide them. "be a certain middle between and oligarchy?" "Most certainly. in others oligarchy." I said. won't most such aspects be peculiar to this regime?" earnest." he said. but mixed —and possesses are no longer simple and in leaning 548 a "Yes." "But cause the in being afraid to bring the wise to the ruling of that kind it offices —be- e men toward spirited and simpler men." I said. while those who prewere guarded by them as free friends and supporters they then enslaved and held as serfs and domestics. "In honoring the rulers. But once transformed. and they will harvest pleasures stealthily. This is because they weren't educated by persuasion but by force the result of neglect of the true Muse accompanied by arguments and philosphy while giving more distinguished honor to gymnastic than music. and they occupied themselves with war and with guarding against these men. it is mixed. and in spending all its time making war. where they can make lavish expenditures on women and whomever else they might wish." I said." "In my opinion." chies do.Book VIII 1 546a-548c socrates/glaucon and houses to be held privately. and in the abstention of its war-making part from farming and the manual arts and the rest of money-making.

" city. like the timocratic c "Most certainly. "that as far as love of victory goes." he said. then." he'd be somewhere "Perhaps in that. "is the timocratic youth. having been abandoned by the best guardian?" "What's that?" Adeimantus said. since even the outline is sufficient for seeing the justest man and the unjustest one. the law- [ 226 ] . but as he grows older take ever more delight in participating in the money-lover's nature and not be pure in his attachment to virtue. not basing his claim to rule on b speaking or anything of the sort." "Right. But with freemen he He is merely despising slaves as the adequately educated man would be tame and to rulers most obedient. the young son of a good father who lives in a city that "Sometimes he is is not under a good regime. dwells within the one possessing it as a savior of virtue throughout life." I said. "and somewhat less apt at music although he loves it. he is a lover of gymnastic and the hunt. correspond to Glaucon's." I i is fine." "Wouldn't such a man." he said." d much so. "Then " I said." he said. "that is the disposition belonging to this regime." said e 549 a "Which respects?" "He must be more stubborn. "but in these other respects his nature does not." I said. "this is the way this regime would come into being and what it would be like—given the fact that we are only outlining a regime's figure in speech and not working out its details precisely." "What you say "Such. With slaves such a man would be brutal." he said." I said." this is "And how he comes into being. "when he is young also despise money. and it is an impractically long job to go through all regimes and all dispositions and leave nothing out. but on warlike deeds and everything connected with war. not does." "I suppose. a father who flees the honors. and must be a lover of hearing although he's by no means skilled in rhetoric. "It alone.socrates/glaucon/adeimantus the republic is 548 c spiritedness one thing alone most distinctive in it: love of victories and of honors. "Who." 1 said. near to Glaucon here." I said." "Yes. then. a lover of ruling and of honor. "Argument mixed with music. when it is present. is the man corresponding to this regime? How did he come into being and what sort of man is he?" "Very Adeimantus. the ruling offices. said. in my opinion.

chants all the other refrains such as women are likely to do in cases of this sort. Now when the young man hears and sees all this. she sees that he isn't very serious about money and doesn't fight and insult people for its sake in private actions in courts and in public but takes everything of the sort in an easygoing way. he came to the middle. And when the son goes out. the part that loves victory and is spirited. and turned over the rule in himself to the middle part. and those who don't." "In what way. "you have given a complete description of this man's genesis. the others. they urge the son to punish all such men when he becomes a man." domestics I said. tell "Then. he became a similar things to the sons. She complains about all this and says that his father is lacking in courage and too slack. honored and praised. and causes it to grow. and. he listens to his mother complaining." I said. on the other hand." "We have. and she becomes aware that he always turns his mind to himself and neither honors nor dishonors her very much. shall we follow our plan and tell first of the city?" [ 227 ] ." "Yes. next." I said. with Aeschylus." he said. then. hears his father's arguments and sees his practices at close hand contrasted with those of the others. Her husband is not one of the rulers and as a result she is at a disadvantage among the other women. shall we. Because he doesn't have a bad man's nature. money or does 550 a b haughty-minded "In man who loves honor." "Therefore. and who wilhng to be gotten the better of so as not to be bothered." "And you know. the desiring and spirited parts. does he come into being?" he said.iBook VIII / 548c-550c sochates/adeimantus and everything of the sort that's to the busybody's taste." he said. "in the first place. against another city. he is drawn by both of these influences.'^ of 'another man set or rather. "it's just like them to have many suits. "When. His father waters the calculating part of his soul. he hears and sees other similar things—those in the city who mind their own business called simpletons and held in small account. drawn by both of these influences. is 549 c d e complaints. indeed. but has kept bad company with others. and thus to be more of a man than his father. of course." said Adeimantus. and. "we have the second regime and the second i c man. Moreover. "that the domestics of such men—those say who seem well-disposed —^sometimes also secretly and if they see someone who owes him some other injustice and whom the father doesn't prosecute." my opinion.

" "Most "And. less? Prescribing that the man whose substance is not up to the level of the fixed assessment shall not participate in the ruling offices." "Surely. they finally become money-making and money." "That's likely." "Instead of lovers of men who love victory and honor. oligarchy would come after such a regime. the less honorable they consider virtue. don't they then set chic regime by fixing [ 228 ] . they themselves and their wives disobey them. and the more honorable they consider "Plainly. e "Next." I said." 55J a "from there they progress in money-making. the sum is greater. is practiced. then." he said." "What kind of arrangement do you mean by oligarchy?" he said "The regime founded on a property assessment. I suppose. and they praise and admire the wealthy man and bring him to the ruling offices. always inclining in opposite directions?" "Quite so." I said." "That's likely." "Well. don't "Therefore. virtue and the good men are less honorable. it." "Certainly. "I understand."^ I said. First they seek out expenditures for themselves and pervert the laws in that direction. while they dishonor the poor man." he said. where less of an oligarchy. it first "Mustn't "Yes.ADETMANTUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLJQ certainly. "in which the rich rule and the poor man^* has no part in ruling ofBce." h down a law defining an oligaran assessment of a sum of money—where it's more of an oligarchy. as though each were lying in the scale of a balance." be told how the transformation from timarchy to oligarchy takes place?" "And really. he said." I said. Or isn't virtue in tension with wealth. "the way it is transformed is plain even to a blind man." 550 c d I suppose. and what is "That's so." he said." "How?" "The treasure house \ full of gold. "which each man has destroys that regime. and thus they made the multitude like themselves. when wealth and the wealthy are honored in a city. one man sees the other and enters into a rivalry with him." what happens to be honored without honor is neglected. "Surely.

it also apply to a city?" it is he said." Reflect: if a I we were contains?" said." said. "that's no less of a mistake." being perhaps unable to fight any war. by Zeus. is its establishment. "They would make a poor sailing. or not to use it and thus show up as true oligarchs ^^ on the field of battle. this isn't a fine thing: their "And e besides. "Or does all." "No." [ 229 ] . first. further. speaking generally. before it comes to 551 b they arouse fear and so estabhsh this regime? "It certainly is. then." he said." "Then oligarchy would contain proportions. and. ever plotting against each other. the city of the poor and the city of the rich." I "Except for a city?" "Certainly. on account of their not being willing to contribute money be- cause they love it." "Now see whether this regime is the first to admit the greatest of — — 552 a all these evils. by force of arms or. "But what the character of the regime? saying it And c iwhat are the mistakes which "First. dwelling together in the same place.iBook VIII 1 550c-552a socrates/adeimantus 5 they either put this into effect that. on account of being compelled either to use the multitude armed and be more afraid of it than the enemy. at least." "It looks like it." "And what about this? That tendency to be busybodies we were condemning long ago the same men in such a regime engaged in farming. "most of insofar as the hardest and of such greatest kind of rule. "No. he said. it's not a fine thing. "the very thing that defines the regime to choose pilots of ships in that to a man were property assessments were a more skilled pilot —and wouldn't entrust one — " way on the basis of poor man. money-making and war-making at the same time does that seem right?" "In no way whatsoever. " he said." Or isn't it that iway?" "This is." "Yes. "Isn't this also so for any other kind of rule watsoever?" "So I suppose. even if he — is one." this one mistake that is d "And what about one?" this? Is this a lesser mistake than the former "What?" "Such a city's not being one but of necessity two.

"Hasn't the god made all drones with wings stingless." "Then this sort of thing is at least not prevented in oligarchies." "Reflect on this." h "Yes. such a man that. as a drone growing growing up in a house is a d drone and a disease of a city?" "Most certainly. "he seemed. "It's plain. therefore. but was nothing other than a spender. nor a knight. while from those who have stings come all who are called wrongdoers. but only some drones with feet stingless while others have terrible stings? From the stingless ones come those who end up as beggars in old age. Socrates. When such a man was wealthy and was spending was he then of any more profit to the city with respect to the functions we were mentioning just now? Or did he seem to belong to the rulers while in truth he was neither a ruler nor a servant of the city but a spender of his means?" -c "That's the way it was. and when he has sold it. somewhere in the neighborhood thieves. whom the ruling offices diligently hold down by force?" "We must certainly suppose so. and craftsmen of all such evils are hidden." he said." he said." I said." "It is plain. Adeimantus." he said. allowing him to live in the city while belonging to none of its parts. but a poor man without means." he said. bad rearing. "Shall we assert that such men arise there as a result of want of education. cutpurses. nor a craftsman. nor a hoplite.the rulers. temple robbers." e "Aren't we to suppose. "to say of him a disease of a hive. called neither a moneymaker. "it is the first. "that in a city where you see beggars." I said. Otherwise some wouldn't be super rich while others are out-and-out poor. cities "What then? In present?" under oligarchies don't you see beggars he said." "Do you wish up in a cell is us." he said. "Just about everyone except ." he said." "Very true.ADEtMANTUs/sOCRATES THE REPUBLIP 552 a 'rWhatr "Allowing one man to sell everything that belongs to him and another to get hold of it." "Right." I said. and a bad arrangement of the regime?" [ 230 ] . "that there are also many wrongdoers with stings among them.

He had either been a general or had held some other great ruling office." I said. anyhow. let's consider if he would be like." he said. and. and next consider how man similar to comes into being and what he's like once he has come into being. "that its we have developed on the the the regime 553 a called oligarchy. I suppose. — — c swords?"!^ "I do." he I said. and thrusts love of honor and spiritedness headlong out of the throne of his soul. my friend. and Persian in his footsteps. or dishonori^ and lost his whole substance. and bit by bit saving and working. he collects money.figook VIII 1 552a-553e ADElMA^JTus/socRATEs ? "We shall would contain assert it." he said." "Most timocratic certainly. he turns greedily to money-making. one that gets let's rulers basis of a property it assessment." "Is this. "Is this the principal way in which the transformation from that man to an oligarchic one takes place?" "How?" "When his son is bom and at first emulates his father and follows b and then sees him blunder against the city as against a reef and waste his property as well as himself. and makes it the great king within himself. seeing and suffering this and having lost his substance." [ 231 ] . while loving the enjoyment of no other honor than that resulting from the possession of money and anything that happens on the ground on either side and be culate about nor consider anything but to contribute to getting it. letting the by d one neither calwhere more money will come from less. such would be the city under an oligarchy and all these evils. "no other transformation so quick and so sure from a young man who loves honor to one who loves money. and perhaps even more. is frightened. Don't you suppose that such a man now puts the desiring and money-loving part on the throne. exile. "the oligarchic man?" e like the "At least he is transformed out of a man who was regime out of which oligarchy came. "And the son." "There is. sit "And. collars. he makes the calculating and spirited parts slaves. and then got entangled with the court suffering at the hands of sycophants and underwent death. humbled by poverty. girding it with tiaras. then." he said." he said." "That's pretty nearly it." "Then. and letting the other admire and honor nothing but wealth and the wealthy." "That's likely. it suppose. "Then let's take it." it 552 e "Well." I said.

decent He holds them dovioi [ 232 ] . satisfying only hj^ necessary desires and not providing for other expenditures. "to what you must look you want to see the wrongdoings of these men?" "To what?" he said." "Very much so." he said." I said." "A filling sort of squalid man. with some not by persuading them that they 'had better not' nor by taming them vdth argument. but enslaving the other desires as vanities." I b Uke such a regime?" "In my opinion. in being stingy and a toiler. is held in honor above all by the city and by the man like it. in any event. " "And." he said." he said. "Such a man. "But consider this." I said. place." I said.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THE REPUfiLlp" let's 554 a "Yes. Won't w^e say that due to lack "Not in my opinion. al- bad desires." "For I don't suppose." "Most certainly. "Surely. "Otherwise he vi^ouldn't have set a blind leader^^ over the chorus and honored it above all. therefore. my friend. "getting a profit out of everything exactly is the kind of men the multitude the one vi^ho education. "you'll find the desires that are akin to the drone present in most of them when they have to spend what belongs to others. nor would he be simply one. others of the wrongdoing variety— come to be in him —some of the beggar by his if ^held dovioi forcibly general diligence. "Isn't it plain from this that tion in other contractual relations —^because he seems when such a man has a good reputato be just —he is d forcibly holding dovioi part of himself which are there." "Indeed you most certainly will. doing so because he trembles for his whole substance. but by necessity and fear. wouldn't be free from faction viithin himself. Irue. but rather in some sense twofold." he said. "Money. at least. "Do you know. "such a man has devoted himself to praises isn't this — up his storeroom — said." he said. consider that." "Good. of education dronelike desires c variety. wouldn't "In the place to first he be similar in giving the highest money?" "Of course." I said. by Zeus. "And. "To their guardianship of orphans and any occasion of the kind that comes their way and gives them a considerable license to do injustice. further.

" "In that." "That they do above all." 554 e Ihats so. "that the stingy. by their neglect and encouragement of licentiousness in oligarchies. but one or the other is necessarily neglected?" "That's fairly plain. what it is like—so that when we know the character of such a can bring him forward for judgment." "Quite so." he said. once come into being." he said." he said. they are unwilling to control those among the youth who become licentious by a law forbidding them to spend and waste what belongs to them— in order that by buying and making loans on the property of such men they can become richer and more honored. "Then. democracy." "Furthermore.fi^ook Vin I 554a-55Sd socrates Adeimantus though for the most part his better desires would master his worse desires. we we "we would at least be proceeding just as were. as a restilt it- of the insatiable character of the good that oligarchy proposes for becoming as rich as possible?" "How?" he "I said. the stingy private man is a poor contestant when with his means he competes for some victory or any other noble object 555 a of ambition in a city. he makes war like an oligarch." ^ ignoble to become [ 233 ] . and stays rich." he said. corresponds to the oligarchic city?" "Not at all." "Doesn't. in virtue of his likeness. he's not willing to spend desires money for the sake of good reputation or any such contests. "the transformation from an oligarchy to a in democracy take place self—the necessity of something like the following way. as it seems. with a few of his troops. is defeated most of the time. but the true virtue of the single-minded and harmonized soul would escape far from him. I suppose such a man would be more graceful than many. be considered next—in what way it comes into being and." "Isn't it by now plain that it's not possible to honor wealth in a city and at the same time adequately to maintain moderation among the citizens. money-making b man." I said. man in his turn." "That's my opinion. Afraid to awaken the spendthrift and to summon them to an alliance and a love of victory. must. suppose that because the rulers rule in it thanks to possessing much. "Do we then still doubt. "Then on this account. "Then. they c d have sometimes compelled human beings who are not poor." I said.

reared in the shade. and sees him panting and full of perplexity. is. or even observing one another in dangers themselves the poor are now in no wise despised by the rich. from doing what he wants with his property. meet in private. aren't their c soft young luxurious and without taste for work of body or of to resist pleasures and pains.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLIQ 555 d "Quite so. each prepared in this fashion." stings e "That's so. alongside of each other —either wayfaring or munity." "Far fewer. the citizens would make money less shamelessly in the city and fewer evils of the kind we were just describing would grow in it. tanned poor man is ranged in battle next to a rich man. hating and plotting against those who acquired what belongs to them and all the rest too. and some both. not seeming see these men. at all events. becoming shipin d mates or fellow soldiers. as it said. on trips to religious festivals or in some other comcampaigns. with heads bent down. "for all these reasons." the reyields. they have. too "What else could they be?" "And haven't they themselves neglected everything except moneymaking and paid no more attention to virtue than the poor? "Yes. And as for themselves and their own. gripped by a love of change. ^^ they make the drone and said." "What law?" alternatively. and carrying off from the father a multiple oJBF- wound with injections of silver any man among spring in interest. Rather it is often the case that a lean. to mainder who 556 a the city." I said." I kind of evil — "they aren't as it is bursting into flame — vsilling to either quench this by preventing a man or." "Then I suppose these men sit idly in the city. fitted out with and fully armed. Don't you suppose he believes that it is due to the vice of the poor that such men are rich." "And these money-makers. one passes the word For they are nothing?" to the other: 'Those [ 234 ] ." he "But. some owing debts. the beggar great in "Very great indeed." "When come the rulers and the ruled. For if someone were to prescribe that most voluntary contracts are to be made at the contractor's own risk. and too idle?" soul. by b "The one that takes second place to the former law and which compels the citizens to care for virtue. surrounded by a great deal of alien flesh. instituting another law that resolves such cases. some dishonored. said." he "And. the rulers in the city treat the ruled in this way. and — when the poor men are ours.

" he said. "Just like a many-colored cloak decorated in all hues. so too doesn^t a city that is in the same kind of condition as that body. it is plain. wishes to organize a city." he said. and share the regime and the ruling offices with those who are left on an equal basis. would judge this fairest regime. certainly. from a city under a democracy by the members of the other—fall sick and do battle with itself. and sometimes even without any external influence becomes divided by factions within itself." this "Then I suppose that in regime especially." be the I said." could they fail to?" probably the fairest of the regimes. "that this is what they do. "And. it is there's license. it contains probably necessary for the man who [ 235 ] . come to be. as we were just doing. I suppose. "Just as a sickly body needs only a slight 557 a b "In the first place. aren't they free? And isn't it the city full of freedom and free speech? And isn't there license one wants?" "That is what is said." I said. decorated with "It is all "How dispositions. "And what is the character of such a regime? For it's plain that the man who is like it will turn out to be democratic." "Yes." 556 e push from outside to become ill. what's more." "In what way do these men live?" I said. on a small pretext—men brought in as allies from outside." I said. this regime. He would choose the sort that pleases him. from a city under an oligarchy. by the members of one party." "Quite so. and. and sometimes even without any external influence become divided by faction?" "That is very much the case. then." "Then democracy. women looking at many -colored things. and many perhaps.Book VIII / 555d-557d adeimantus/socrates "I certainly know very well. you blessed man. "like to boys and would also look fairest." all sorts plain. to go to a city under a democracy. the offices in it are given by lot. of human c beings." he said." place to look for a regime. "this is the establishment of democracy." he said. "it's a convenient d "Why and it is is that?" its all species of regimes." he said. whether it comes into being by arms or by the others' withdrawing due to fear. it's plain that each it man would life in it privately just as pleases him. thanks to license. like a man going into a general store "Because. killing some of the others and casting out some." "Yes. in to do whatever "And where organize his "Yes. for the most part. comes into being when the poor win.

and." he said." stingy." "And what about this? Isn't the gentleness toward^^ some of the condemned exquisite? Or in such a regime haven't you yet seen men who have been sentenced to death or exile. "would have all this and other things akin to it and would be." "Now. as it seems." "Reflect. or again to cared or saw. "for the moment. democracy. "Of course. just we comes did in the case of the regime. "Then. once having chosen. a son reared by his father in his dispositions." I said. "he wouldn't be at a "And the absence of any compulsion to loss for patterns at least rule in this city. d oligarchic this way? I suppose a son would be born to that man." I said 558 a be ruled if you don't want to be. a sweet regime. [ 236 ] . without rulers and many-colored. and if some law prevents you from ruling or being a judge. this son too." he said. must to be?" we consider how he "Yes. those ones that are called unnecessary "Plainly." he said. then. "who is the private man first like this? Or. forcibly ruling all the pleasures in himself that are spendthrifty and do not conduce to money-making. he would thus establish his regime. stalking the land like a hero?"^'^ "Yes. b c "And this regime's sympathy and total lack of pettiness in despising what we were saying so solemnly when we were founding the city—that unless a man has a transcendent nature he would never become good if from earliest childhood his play isn't noble and all his practices aren't such—how magnificently it tramples all this underfoot and doesn't care at all from what kinds of practices a man goes to political action." said.socrates/adeimantus > THEREPUBLjp 557 d e of regimes. but honors him if only he says he's well disposed toward the multitude?" a very noble regime. if you don't desire peace." he said. "is quite well known. nonetheless staying and carrying on right in the middle of things. and. many." "Perhaps." "What you as say. or to make war when the others are making war." " he said. if you long to do so—isn't such a way of passing the time divinely sweet for the moment?" "Perhaps." "Isn't he it said. or to keep peace when the others are keeping it. the absence of any compulsion keeping you from ruling and being a judge anyhow." I he said. as though no one "even if you are competent to rule. dispensing a certain equality to equals and unequals "It's alike.

"Wouldn't those and the unnecessary "that's what I want." "Then shall we choose an example of what each of them is so that we can grasp their general types?" "Yes. we'll assert the same. while the former are money-making because they are "Surely.'' 559 a is just." "The desire for bread. of which the many can be rid if it is checked in youth and educated." "But what about the desire that goes beyond toward sorts of food other than this. moreover." "Then we "That shall justly apply the term necessary to them." "Then won't we desires?" also assert the same about sex and the other "Yes. at least." "And so is the desire for relish. "do you want us to 558 d define the necessary be called necessary. while the stingy oligarchic man is ruled by the necessary ones?" d [ 237 ] . is presumably necessary on both counts. and is harmful to the body and to the soul with respect to prudence and moderation? Wouldn't it rightly be called unnecessary?" c "Most rightly indeed." "Wouldn't the desire of eating as long as it is for health and good condition." desires?" we e "Quite so. in that it is beneficial and in that it is capable of putting an end — — b to life. as well as all those whose satisfaction benefits us? We are by nature compelled to long for both of these.Book Vin / 557d-559d socrates/adeimantus "So that "Yes." I said. we must. the desire of mere bread and relish ^be necessary?" "I suppose so." "Most certainly." "And what about this? If we were to affirm that all those are unnecessary of which a man could rid himself if he were to practice from youth on and whose presence." we don't discuss in the dark. aren't we?" aren't able to turn aside justly he said." "And weren't we is also saying that the man we just named is a drone full of such pleasures and desires and ruled by the unnecessary ones." "Yes. does no good—and sometimes even does the opposite of good—would what we say be fine?" "Fine it would be. if in any way it is beneficial to good condition." "Then wouldn't we also useful^^ for our works?" assert that the latter desires are spendthrifty.

" he said. reared in secret due to the father's lack of knowledge about rearing. either from the advice and scolding of his father or from other relatives." "Most necessarily." he said." he said. I suppose they took the acropolis of the young man's soul." least. clever beasts who honey." "And. in their absence." what usually happens. with iled. false and boasting speeches and opinions ran up and seized that place in such a young man. then faction and counterfaction arise in him and he does battle with himself. . to a democratic one.and it's these that are the best watchmen and guardians in the thought of c men whom the gods love.ADEIMANTUS/SOCRATES THE REPUBLJQ 559 d "Of course we were. like to like." "And I suppose that at times the democratic party gives way to the oligarchic. akin to the exiled ones. drawn to the same associations. if a counteralliance "Surely. a certain some of the desires destroyed and others shame arose in the young man's soul. And it looks to me as though it happens in most cases like this." he said. their secret intercourse bred a multitude. tastes the drones' fiery. "But I suppose that once again other desires." "And." "Indeed they did." I said. going back again." 560 a comes to the aid of the oligarchic party in him. "Then." "They are by [ 238 ] . just as the city was transformed when an alliance from outside brought aid to one party." "Then. is the young man also transformed in the same way when desires of a kindred and like form from without bring aid to one party of desires within him?" "That's entirely certain." b "Sometimes that does happen. and has intercourse with are able to purvey manifold and subtle pleasures with every sort of variety. "let's say how the democratic man comes out of the oligarchic one. "that's "Of course." he "Then. and order was exre- established." "How?" "When tion a young man. then. reared as we were just saying without educa- and stingily. I suppose. and. came "At to be. far the best. perceiving that it was empty of fair studies and practices and true speeches. finally. e this point you presumably suppose that at he begins his change from an oligarchic regime within himself said. many and strong." "Well.

"he also lives along day by day. magnificence." he said. those boasting speeches close the gates of the ." "Now. changes from his rearing in necessary desires to the liberation and unleashing of unnecessary and useless pleasures?" "Yes. once they have emptied and purged these from the soul of the man whom they are seizing and initiating in great rites. and that the ones must be practiced and honored and the others checked and enslaved. freedom. and shamelessness. when he is young. effort. Isn't it in some such way. anarchy. he readmits a part of the exiles and doesn't give himself wholly over to the invaders—then he lives his life in accord with a certain equality of pleasures he has established. also. crowned and accompanied by a e numerous chorus. they join frontier. "it's quite manifestly that way." he said." 561 a b "Most certainly. To whichever one happens along. if he has good luck and his frenzy does not go beyond bounds—and if. a fugitive. and shamelessness from exile." "That's exactly. as though it were chosen by the lot. they banish it. "that a man." I said. courage. he hands over the rule within himself until it is satisfied.^" persuading that d measure and orderly expenditure are with many useless desires in driving and them over the rustic illiberal. but doing battle they hold sway themselves.2i anarchy. I suppose that afterward such a man lives spending no more money. and naming shame simplicity." "Then." "And.^Book VIII / 559d'561c socrates/adeimantus i E among them? And "Doesn't he go back again to those Lotus-eaters and openly settle if some help should come to the stingy element in 560 c t his f j soul fj-om relatives." I said. if "he doesn't admit true speech or let it pass into the c someone says that there are some pleasures belonging to fine and good desires and some belonging to bad desires. dishonoring none but fostering them all on the basis of equality. "what a man in this condition does. and time on the necessary than on the unnecessary pleasures. Rather. he shakes his head at all this and says that all are alike and must be honored on an equal basis. gratifying the desire that occurs to him." I said. However." "Then. they neither admit the auxiliary force itself nor do they receive an embassy of speeches of older^^ private men. they push it out with dishonor. in a blaze of light." "Indeed they do. at one time drinking and listening to the guardhouse. and then again to another. as a result of getting somewhat older and the great disturbances having passed by. [ 239 ] . wastefulness. calling moderation cowardliness and spattering it with mud. wastefulness. kingly wall within him. they proceed to return insolence. extolling and flattering them by calling insolence good education.

" I said. and if it's money-makers." I said. jumping up. "Then. said. but calling this life sweet. my dear comrade. and if he ever admires any soldiers." he said. wasn't it?" "Yes. "the fairest regime and the fairest man would be for us to go through." "Well. Many men and women would admire his life because it contains the most patterns of regimes and characters. And there is neither nastic. 561 c flute. says and does whatever chances to come to him." I of a man attached the greatest all-various and full of and many-colored man like the city." he said." in b as "Does tyranny come from democracy democracy from oligarchy?" about the same manner that they proposed for themselves." democracy. order nor necessity in his blessed he follows e it life. "Come. free. that is he. and sometimes spending his time as though he were occupied with philosophy." he said." left said. in that one.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLJp now practicing gyii^. tyranny and the tyrant. "and for the sake of which oligarchy was established. what is the manner of tyranny's coming into being? For it is pretty plain that it is transformed out of "Certainly. was wealth. "I this is suppose that man number of dispositions." he said." "How?" "The good "And then the greediness for wealth and the neglect the sake of money-making destroyed it. now. and that for this reason it is the only regime worth living in for anyone who is by nature free. of the rest for "And does dissolve it?" the greediness for what democracy good defines as good also "What do y6u say c it defines that to be?" "Freedom. and throughout. it is plain." "Yes. Often he engages in politics and." he said. the fair 562 a "What then? democracy "Let's as the we set the man of this who would rightly be called one Shall sort over against democratic?" do I so."22 life to "You have." he said. "described exactly the the law of equality. d and again idling and neglecting e:verything." "Yes indeed." "Yes. he turns in that direction." "True. "that's an often repeated phrase. "For surely in a city under a democracy you would hear that this is the finest thing it has. at another downing water and reducing." [ 240 ] .

A man who didn't have e 563 a b c [ 241 ] ." "Yes."^^ "Yes. unless the rulers are very gentle and provide a great deal of freedom. "That a father. my friend. they are overflowing with facility and charm. and that's so that they won't seem to be unpleasant or despotic. "for it to filter down to the private houses and end up by anarchy's being planted in the very beasts?" "How do we mean that?" he said. "I shall do just that. generally." I said. once it's thirsted for freedom." praises I d said. charging them with being polluted and oligarchs. as well as of their attendants." 1 said." "Most certainly. And. Isn't it necessary in like such a city that freedom spread to everything?" "How could it be otherwise?" "And. are no less free than those who have bought them. and similarly with the foreigner." he said. gets bad winebearers as its leaders and gets more drunk than it should on this unmixed draught. 'say whatever just came to our lips'?"24 "Certainly." a I said." I said. and metic is on an equal level with townsman and townsman with metic. "with Aeschylus. "that's what happens. and a son habituates himself to be like his father and to have no shame before or fear of his parents— that's so he may be free." "These and other small things of the following kind come to pass. imitating the young." "And it spatters with mud those who are obedient. "while it and honors—both in private and in public—the rulers who are the ruled and the ruled who are like the rulers." "Won't we. the young copy their elders and compete with them in speeches and deeds while the old come down to the level of the young. male and female. "that's what they do." I said." he said. does the insatiable 562 c desire of this and the neglect of the rest change this regime and prepare need "I for tyranny?" said. And we almost forgot to mention the extent of the law of equality and of freedom in the relations of women with men and men with women. my friend. "habituates himself to be like his child and fear his sons." I said. then. "as I was going to say just now. so the students make light of their teachers." he said. "And the ultimate in the freedom of the multitude. "occurs in such a city when the purchased slaves.Book VIII / 561c-563c socrates/adeimantus "Then. "How?" he suppose that when a democratic city. it punishes them. alleging that they are willing slaves of the rulers and nothings." he said. "As the teacher in such a situation is frightened of the pupils and fawns on them.

And. "but what's next?" "The same disease." peatedly suffer that very thing "Then. said. "this is the beginning. then. the less courageous part whom we liken to drones. they are irritated and can't stand it? And they end up. "I. "I The most courageous It's just these meant that class of idle." said. growing naturally in oligarchy and democracy alike." he said." "What you say "Well. in order that they e may avoid hav- ing any master at all. enslaves "Well. not least in regimes. that's probable." he said." "That's probable. there come to be horses and asses who have gotten the habit of making their way quite freely and solemnly. in plants. I is true." follows." "You're telling me my own dream." he said." "Yes. "tyranny is the latter. extravagant men. then. then." I said. by paying no attention to the laws." "It surely is a heady beginning. them leads. I know it. myself. re- to the country. "as that which arose in the oligarchy and destroyed it. anything that is done to excess is likely to provoke a correspondingly great change in the opposite direction—in seasons. and." "That's right. "do you notice how tender they make the citizens' soul. written or unwritten. The bitches and become like their mistresses." into nothing but too much other regime than democracy.^^ and of course." he said. summing up all of these things together." I said." he said. "Well." "But I suppose you weren't asking that. 564 a in particular. some equipped with part of stings. "that's reasonable. b probably established out of no I suppose—the greatest and most savage slavery out of the extreme of freedom." "Of course. in bodies." he I said. from which tyranny in my opinion naturally grows." I said." he said. so fair and heady. as you well know. bumping into whomever they happen to meet on the roads. others without stings. my friend. so that if someone pro- when journeying poses anything that smacks in any way of slavery. "but rather what disease. really. and all else follow the proverb exactly d is similarly full of freedom. both for private man and city. if he doesn't stand aside. "Too much freedom seems to change slavery." I said. arises also in this regime—^but bigger and stronger as a result of the license—and enslaves democracy. [ 242 ] .socrates/adeimantus the republic 563 c ject to the experience couldn't be persuaded of the extent to which beasts subhuman beings are freer here than in another city." "Yes.

but if they do come into being. the most orderly by nature become." I said." 565 a [ 243 ] . d thankstothelicense. and that easiest to get to. while the rest alight near the platform and buzz and don't endure the man who says anything else. there is also another class that always distinguishes itself from the multitude. "Well. richest." Thats so. "when these two come into being in any 564 b c regime." "Well." "Yes. by Zeus. all those who do their ovi^n work. must take long-range precautions." "How's that?" "There. But in a democracy." men suppose that it is there that the most honey. "But they aren't willing to assemble very frequently unless they get some share of the honey." ^ "How?" "In the argument let's divide the city under a democracy into three parts. for the most part. then." "How." he said." "Then I "Just about. due to its not being held in honor but being driven from the ruling offices." he said. which is the way it actually is divided." he said. "completely. leads. "And the people wotild be the third class. this class. they do. And it's against them that the good doctor and lawgiver of a city. with few exceptions. that they be cut out as quickly as possible. then. is governed by this class in such a regime.Book VIII / 563c-565a socrates/adeimantus "Well. "But it's far fiercer here than in the other. like phlegm and bile in a body." he said. no less than a wise beekeeper. One class is surely that which. can be squeezed out by the drones. and don't possess very much." "Quite so. don't meddle in affairs. presumably. they constitute the most numerous and most sovereign class in a democracy. the result is that everything. "let's take it like this so that we may more distinctly see what we want." "Yes. and its fiercest part does the speaking and the acting. grows naturally in itnoless than in theoligarchiccity. Whenever they assemble. they cause trouble." "Likely." e "What class?" "Presumably when all are engaged in money-making. it is without exercise and isn't vigorous. apart from a certain few exceptions. cells and all. "could one squeeze it out of those who have lit- "Then I tle?" suppose such rich men are called the drones' pasture. preferably that they not come into being." I said." he said.

by becoming truly oligarchs. judgments." "And. not willingly but out of ignorance and because they are deceived by the slanderers. even if they don't desire make innovations." said." he said. "they doing whatever they can.ocrates/adeimantus the republic 1 565 fl "Therefore. does not hold back from shedding the blood of but unjustly brings charges against a man—which is and. when they see that the people are trying to do them an injustice." "Of course." contests against "Aren't the people always accustomed to set their special leader and to foster up some one man him and make him grow great?" do that." "Quite so." "Isn't it necessarily also the same for the leader of a people who. whether they want to or not. in taking distributing it away the substance of those who have it and among the people. "to the extent that the leaders. taking over a particularly obedient mob. they at last end up. they do not do so willingly. bringing him before the court." b do get a share in that way." c "And then come impeachments. Or haven't you heard that speech?" "I have." "Then I suppose that those men whose property is taken away are compelled to defend themselves by speaking before the people and by "Yes." I said." "For to this they are charged by the others. tastes of kindred blood his tribe exactly what they usually do — [ 244 ] . and." "What is the beginning of the transformation from leader to "It's plain. and one another. are able to keep the greatest part for themselves. but the drone who stings them engenders this evil too. doing away with a man's life." as "Yes." "That is quite plain. they always get a share. they are accustomed to d when a tyrant grows naturally. he sprouts from a root of leadership and from nowhere else. therefore. with plotting against the people and being oligarchs. "that tyrant? told in Or is it plainly when the leader begins to act out the tale that the is connection with temple of Lycaean Zeus in Arca- dia?"26 "What's that?" 'That the cut e man who tastes of the single morsel of human inwards become a up with those of other sacrificial victims must wolf. therefore." "Of course. murders him." "That's entirely certain.

"Then this." "But if they are unable to exile him or to him to the city. "Then I suppose the people grant the request. one who possesses money and is charged not only with having money but also with hating the people. having cast down many others. and hints isn't it at of debts and redistributions of land." I said. and not only deny he's a tyrant but prom" ' [ 245 ] . then. that after this such a man either be slain by his enemies or be tyrant and turn from a human being into a wolf?" "Quite necessarily." for him "Consequently when a man sees this. "is the man who incites faction against those who have wealth. frightened and sure of themselves." he said. he's given death. whose careers have progressed to this stage hit upon the notorious tyrannical request — now some c to ask the people for bodyguards to save the people's defender for them." he said." "Necessarily." surely it's plain that this leader himself doesn't lie 'great in his greatness' on the ground." "All those. "let's go through it. but.Book VIII 1 565a-566d socrates/adeimantxjs with unholy tongue and mouth." "In the first days of his time in office. "doesn't he smile at and greet whomever he meets." he said. and banishes. "Then let us. d the chariot "28 now a perfected tyrant instead of a leader." "Quite so. he. "^'^ He doesn't "And "And in stay nor is he ashamed to be a coward. stands of the city. they plot to him by slandering do away with him stealthily by a violent kill b death. "that's what usually happens. "go through the happiness of the man and the city in which such a mortal comes to be." I said." "This is he. and cancellations Idlls. then follows the oracle that was given to Croesus and Flees along many-pebbled Hermus. "Most certainly." he said. "For he couldn't be ashamed a second time. also 565 e 566 a necessarily fated. I say." "Quite so." "At least." I said." in spite of his and comes back come back a complete tyrant?" "If he's exiled enemies. does he "Plainly." he said. "that if he's caught. said. "Of course." I said. my comrade." he I suppose.

" "Then the tyrant must gradually do away with left all of them. [ 246 ] . too. look sharply to see great-minded." plot against him?" "Then. "the opposite of the For they take posite." off one the doctors give to bodies. "to be a necessity for him." he said. so that the people will be in need of a leader. as his first step he is always setting some war in motion." "Plainly. "But I suppose that when he is reconciled with some of his enemies outside and has destroyed the others. the worst and leave the best." "That is precisely his situation. becoming poor from contributing money. is who is prudent. so of all of them and plot against them until he purges the city." neither friend nor enemy of any worth "He must." "That's likely. all this activity a preparation for being more hateful to the citizens?" "Of course." "A he "Yes. and grant freedom from debts and and those around himself." it seems. consequently. who happy is he that or not. or cease to live. don't some of those who helped in setting him up and are in power—the manliest among them — speak frankly to him and to one another. c is therefore. while he does the opif "For rule. who is rich. and there is rest from concern with them. so that. and pretend to be gracious and gentle to all?" "Necessarily. fine purgation." he said. also. until he has whatsoever. if he's going to rule." 567 a will "And. I suppose—if he suspects certain men of having free thoughts and not putting up with his>ruling—so that he can have a pretext for destroying them by giving them to the enemy? For all these reasons isn't it necessary for a tyrant always to be stirring up war?" "It is necessary." whether he wants said. even though hated by them. he is to d "Therefore." h "And is. criticizing what is happening?" "That's likely." "Also. to be an enemy is courageous." he said. they be compelled to stick to their daily business and be less inclined to "Plainly.socrates/adeimantus THE REPUBLiri in private 566 e ise much distribute land to the people and public. "he is bound by a blessed necessity that prescribes that he either dwell with the ordinary many." I said. who And to there a necessity for him." I said.

" "The tyrant of whom you speak. "if he gives the are. while the decent men hate him and flee from him. "they pardon us. he would be very willing. gathering [ 247 ] ." "I suppose." 568 a "But he certainly does use such men. many will come he said. for not admiting them into the regime on the ground that they make hymns to tyranny." I said." will he send for "On wages. they pardon us. within it." I said. he uttered this phrase.'2* And he plainly meant that these men we just spoke of are the wise with whom a tyrant has intercourse." "And I suppose going around to the other cities. too. Euripides of being particularly so. in "These are drones. the product 'tyrants wise from intercourse with the wise." "What else would they do?" "It's not for nothing." I said." I said. "extol tyranny as a conthought. "Why of shrewd is that?" "Because." he said." "And he and the other poets. won't he have is more hateful to the citizens for doing more need of more—and more trustw^orthy 567 d —armed guards?" "Of course." he said. "since these are. 'Tjecause the tragic poets are wise. the men most trustworthy for him. are dition 'equal to that of a god'^" b and add much else. and all those who have regimes resembling ours. "And these companions admire him. "and the new citizens have intercourse with him. "of whom you my e opinion. all the subtle ones c among them." he said." I said. doubtless." "Your opinion is true.Book VIII / 566e-568c socrates/adeimantus "To the extent that he these things." "Therefore." he said. free them and include them among the armed guards surrounding himself?" "Oh. "is a blessed thing. foreign ones of all sorts." "Who them?" are these trustworthy men? And where flying." he said. "that tragedy in general has the reputation of being wise and. again speaking. at least that. if he uses such men as friends and trustworthy helpers after he has destroyed his former ones. by the dog. "And who willing " are the trustworthy ones on the spot? Wouldn't he be "What?" "—to take away the slaves from the citizens." their own. among other things.

" e "And what happens when that source gives out?" "It's plain. strike him?" "Yes." necessity will compel he said. the people in fleeing the smoke of on his father. they draw the regimes toward tyrannies and democracies. as though it were unable to proceed for want of breath. and made great. in the second place." he so said. will get their support from his father's proper"I understand. "Let's return to the tyrant's camp. and. that fair. is sacred money in the city. numerous. But the higher they go on the slope of the regimes. "The people " that begot the tyrant will sup- port him and "A great his comrades. male and female. welcomed." he said. as the saying goes. but the reverse. this would at last be self-admitted tyranny and. "Will the tyrant dare to use " and if he doesn't obey." I said. it. 31 that people won't be compelled to bring in such large contributions. "You speak of the tyrant as a parricide and a harsh nurse of old age. by d democracy."32 J sai(]^ "and. along with the property of the men he has destroyed. [ 248 ] . "What if the people are discontented and say that 569 a to be supported by his father. " "It's plain. many-colored thing that is never the same and tell from where its support vwll come. I "But what do you have to say to this?" it is said." "Quite so. besides all this. "once he's taken away his father's arms." he said. "the kind of a beast they have begotten. how this kind ofa people will then know. most of be expected. as to they get wages and are honored too. and that they didn't beget and set him up so that when he not just for a son in his prime b had grown great they should be slaves to their own slaves and support him and the slaves along vwth other flotsam." "Most certainly." "And. and that — they are the weaker driving out the stronger! "What force are you saying?" I said. and hiring fine.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIpI big and persuasive voices. the more their honor fails." he said. and they now bid him and his comrades to go away from the city^ like a father driving a son along with his troublesome drinking fellows out of the house?" "By Zeus. "that if there he'll spend it as long as it lasts. 568 c crowds." I said. but so that with him as leader they would be freed from the rich and those who are said to be gentlemen in the city. the father should be supported by the son. is by tyrants. "that he and his drinking fellows and comrades. as it seems." "But here we've digressed.

"Well then." what happens. and what it is like when it has come "That's exactly into being?" "Most certainly.Book VIII 1 568e-569c sochates/adeimantus enslavement to free men would have fallen into the fire of being under the mastery of slaves." he said. "wouldn't we be speaking appropriately if we asserted that we have given an adequate presentation of how a tyranny is transformed out of a democracy. "it was adequate. in the place of that great and unseasonable freedom they have put on the dress of the harshest and bitterest enslave- 569 c ment to slaves." [ 249 ] ." he said." I said.

" I IX said. "still a fine time to do so?" "Most observe. some in everyone. but. the investigation number of the desires. and ruling part of it— slumbers. gorged with food or c [ 251 ] ." he said. and. is the one who still remains. And with making will be less clear. certainly. wretchedly or blessedly. there are. numerous ones remain. in my that are hostile to law and that probably come to be when checked by the laws and the better desires. "what I still miss?" my opinion we haven't adequately distinguished the kinds and this lacking. "the tyrannic is ered—how he himself remains to be considtransformed out of the democratic man." "Do you know. with the help of argument. while in others stronger and more opinion." "What?" "In said." "Which ones do you mean?" he said. while the beastly and wild part. tame." "Isn't it. "that wake up in sleep when the rest of the soul— all that belongs to the calculating." we are b he said. Of the unnecessary pleasures and desires." I said. "Those.BOOK "Well. what "he I man he is and how he lives. once sort of man 571 a come into being." "Yes. And just consider that aspect of them I wish to It's this. in some human beings they are entirely gotten rid of or only a few weak ones are left.

he began by plunging himself into every insolence and assuming the form of these men. it omits no act of folly or shamelessness. And surely this becomes plain in dreams. and beasts. to consider and to long for the perception of someor is doesn't know. second. we have been led out of the way and said too much What we wish to recognize is the following: surely some ter- c and lawless form of desires is in every man. in a word. gods. as it supposes. or is. When and set the third —the one he a man in has silenced these two latter which prudent thinking comes to be — in motion." "And once having had intercourse with subtler men who are full of those desires we just went through. on the other hand. — 572 a the best part by its joy or its pain. said. out of hatred of his father's stinginess. and. but rather leave that best part alone pure and by thing that it itself. Now reflect whether I seem to be saying something and whether you agree with me. and there is no food from which it abstains. you know that in such a state he to most lays hold of the truth and " at this " time the sights that are hostile " b law show up least in his dreams. "Well now." "Well then. Isn't that so?" "Yes. with a mother or with anyone else at all human beings. savage. "it's exactly that way. all shame and prudence. and only then takes his rest. "I suppose.socrates/adeimantus the REPUBLIq skittish and. about of us this. 571 c drink. either something that has been." "But. d pushing sleep away. I can suppose a man who has a healthy and moderate relationship to himself and who goes to sleep only after he does the following: first. dispositions. who seem " showing off. recall the character we attributed to the man of the people. even in some to be ever so measured. he awakens his calculating part and feasts it is You know that in such a were released from." "What you say. coming to an understanding with he feeds the desiring part in such a way that it is neither in want nor surfeited in order that it will rest and not disturb on fair himself. because he has a nature better than that of [ 252 ] . going to be. seeks to go and satisfy its state it dares to do everything as though it of. he soothes the spirited part in the same does not got fall asleep with his spirit aroused because there are way and some he forms angry at. He was presumably produced by being reared from youth by a stingy father who honored only the money-making desires while despising the ones that aren't necessary but exist for the sake of play and rible. or attempting any foul murder at aU. And." he said. and rid — e arguments and considerations. But. "is very true. "I do agree. third. And it doesn't shrink from attempting intercourse.

" I said. I said." "Is it for this reason." "Well." [ 253 ] . now grown older. you demonic man. "assume again that such a man. And when they have no hope of getting hold of the young man in any other way. "Yes. when the other desires—overflowing with incense." f hostile to law. "And." he said. as he supposed." man also have somec he does." he said. assume further that those same things happen to the son that also happened to his father and he is drawn to complete hostility to law. madness for its armed guard and is b perfect." "Then." he said. in turn. my friend. either has become drunken. and enjoying each in measure. a man of the "That was and is." he said. Or do you suppose that love in such men is anything other than a winged drone?" i bis corrupters. it slays them and pushes them out of him until it purges him of moderation and fills him with madness brought in from abroad. myrrh. "the opinion about this kind of man. he "That's perfectly certain. too. by nature or by his and melancholic. wines and all the pleasures^ with which such societies are rife—buzz around the drone.iBook IX / 571c -573c socrates/adeimantus he was drawn in both directions. "doesn't a drunken thing of a tyrannic turn of mind?" "And. making it grow great and fostering it." the precise sense I said. "I it is suppose." I said. erotic. d f e 573 a nothing but this. and that his father and his other relatives bring aid to those middle desires while these dread enchanters and tyrant-makers give aid to the other side. has a young son reared. then. "of a tyrannic man's genesis is quite they plant the sting of longing in it. "a man becomes when." "Well. they contrive to implant some love in him— a great winged drone—to be the leader of the idle desires that insist on all available resources being distributed to them. "that Now this leader of the soul takes stung to frenzy. he lives a life that is neither illiberal nor people come from an oligarchic man. crowns. too. and settled down exactly in the middle between the two ways. though it is named complete freedom by those who are introducing him to it. the man who is mad and deranged human undertakes and expects to be able to rule not only over beings but gods." "I shall assume that." tyrannic in "Quite so." "And. 572 c ." "Your account." he said. And if it finds in the man any opinions or desires accounted good and still admitting of shame."^ practices or both. in his father's dispositions. further. "that love has from old been called a tyrant?" "That's likely.

won't the crowd of intense desires hatched in the nest necessarily cry out." "Of course." "And where force?" "I he's not able to." he said.socrates/adeimantus THEREPUBLjpl it 573 c "This. if the old man and the old woman hold their ground and fight. a younger man." it is necessary. claim he deserves his to get the better of his father and mother and. to those in suppose that next there are among them feasts courtesans. "very hopeful for such a man's parents." "Necessarily. just as the pleasures that came to be in him later got the better of the old ones and took away what belonged to them. as seems. which guides all the others as though they were its armed guards." I who play say. live?" is also the way such a man comes into beine Now how does he d "As those "I shall. he b said. rage and consider who has anything they can take away by deceit or 574 a force?" "Very much so. won't he next seize it and use suppose so." he said." he said. "I whom the tryant love dwells and pilots all the elements of the soul. take away and distribute the paternal property? "Of course. his "What else?" "Then when all this gives out. "you'll tell me this too. and won't these men. if he has spent " own part. first at- 'And then if they won't turn it over to him. you surprising man. and everything else of the sort that belongs said. "And then. would he watch out and be reluctant to do any tyrannic deeds?" "I'm not. so won't he. "Then "Yes. driven as it were by the stings of the other desires but especially by love itself." "And next surely come borrowing and the stripping away of estate. "Don't many terrible and very needy desires sprout up beside every day and night?" it e "They are indeed many. " he said." he said. it is necessary to get contributions from every source or be caught in the grip of great travail and anguish. parties." "Then. wouldn't he tempt to steal from his parents and deceive them?" "Exactly." "So that whatever revenues there may be are quickly used up."'' revels." [ 254 ] .

still under laws and a father." and the rest of the multitude is behaving moderately. or that for the sake of a newly-found and unnecessary boy friend. there was a democratic regime in him. at times they are sycophants. and that he will enslave his parents to them if he should bring them into the same house?" "Yes." "Oh. Rather. rob temples. won't he begin by taking hold of the walP of someone's house or the cloak of someone who goes out late at night." [ 255 ] ." I said. now acting as love's bodyguard and conquering along with it. he became continuously while awake. quite. as though he were a city. But once a tyranny was established by love." "What kind of deeds do you mean?" "Oh. and. "What then? When what belongs to his father and mother gives out on such a man and there's already quite a swarm of pleasures densely gathered in him. cut purses. will lead the man whom it controls. if." I said. or deed. break into houses. love lives like a tyrant within him in all anarchy and lawlessness. he will strike his elderly and necessary father who is no longer in the bloom of youth and is the oldest of friends." he said. to every kind of daring that will produce wherewithal for it and the noisy crowd around it one part of which bad company caused to come in from outside. "It certainly is.^ are mastered by the opinions newly released from slavery. Adeimantus.Book IX 1 573c-575b socrates/adeimantus "But. the other part was from within and was set loose and freed by his own bad character. in the bloom of youth. He will stick at no terrible murder. if there is war somewhere. "to bear a tyrannic a will strike his old friend man son. in the name of Zeus. is it your opinion that for 574 b c the sake of a newly-found lady friend and unnecessary concubine such and necessary mother. they emigrate and serve as bodyguards to some other tyrant or as auxiliaries for wages. what he had rarely been in dreams. then they remain there in the city and do many small evil deeds. and next. or food. sweep out some temple? And throughout all this. the opinions accounted just. These are the opinions that were formerly released as dreams in sleep when. and they bear false witness and take in a city "And "there are few such men b bribes. "it is." "How very blessed it seems to be. And if they come to be in a period of peace and quiet. those opinions he held long ago in childhood about fine and base things. go off with people's clothes. and lead men into slavery." he said. being a monarch. by Zeus. they steal. if they are able to speak. Or isn't this the life d e 575 a — of such a man?" he said.

"The man who turns out to be worst. "Therefore. then. or." Glaucon said. the more he becomes like that. as he took over the argument. "will he also turn like this: in the first place. they themselves cringe and dare to assume any posture. bringing in new comrades. punish the fatherland. life." "Wouldn't we be right in calling such men faithless?" "Of course. further." he said.adeimantus/socrates/glaucon the REPUBLIq evils 575 c "These are small few. "let's sum up the worst man. "When these men are in private before they rule." he said. And this must surely be the end toward which such a man's desire is directed." I said." "Most certainly. He is awake." ones." "Very much so. together with the folly of the people. and the longer he lives in tyranny. if he can. if our previous agreement about what justice is was right?" "But surely it was right." "Most certainly. as to their [ 256 ] . and they become aware of their own multitude." e "That's exactly it." I said." "Fitting." you speak of. so now he will. acting as though they belonged to hirn. I said." he said. could we call them as unjust as they can be. "are small compared to big d badness and wretchedness of a city all of these things together surely don't. presumably. come within striking distance of a tyrant. if they have need of anything from anyone." "And he comes from a man who is by nature most tyrannic and gets a monarchy. just as he then punished his mother and father. "For he would be the most tyrannic. what we described a dreaming man to be. The tyrannic nature never has a taste of freedom or true friendship. as the saying goes." "That's if they submit willingly. "if such men are "That's because small things. But if the city doesn't offer itself. who are ready to serve them in everything. But when such men and the others who follow them become many in a city. generate the tyrant." he said. always one man's master or another's slave. that one among them who in particular has the biggest and most extreme tyrant within his own soul. either they have intercourse with their flatterers." he said. but when they have succeeded they become quite alien. it is then that they. they live their whole life without ever being friends of anyone. "Well. and his way of keeping and cherishing his dear old motherland as the Cretans and for the — say—and fatherland will be to enslave them to these men. aren't they 576 a b company." "And." "Necessarily.

" he said." he said. we were to bid him to report how the tyrant stands in relation to the others in happiness and wretchedness?" "You would. — — e looking. "And it's plain to everyone is no city more wretched than one under a tyranny and none happier than one under a kingship." "Do you want us. regardless.Book IX I 575c-577b scxirates/glaucon out to be most wretched? tyrant. but who rather sees through it adequately? And what if I were to suppose that all of us must hear that man who is both able to judge and has lived together with the tyrant in the same place and was witness to his actions at home and saw how he is with each of his ov^ti." I said." "But." he said." "And about these same things." "What you suggest is right. the many have many opinions. has seen him in public dangers. as they exist in the men. creeping down into every comer and d "I won't ask you which you mean. and. "The one was the best. only then declare our opinion. as one must. "be quite right in suggesting these things tion — side b too. and simi- And he who — 576 c larly with the other men?" "Of course not. "to pretend that we are among those who would be able to judge and have already met up with such men. will is for the longest time the most a most wretched for the longest time in he also have been the light of the truth? However." "With respect to likeness. "It's plain. and the man of the people to anything other than the city under a democracy." I said. and. but. and. so that we'll have someone to answer what we ask?" [ 257 ] ." I said. "would I also be right in suggesting that that man should be deemed fit to judge them who is able with his thought to creep into a man's disposithat there 577 a and see through it a man who is not like a child looking from outand overwhelmed by the tyrannic pomp set up as a facade for those outside. what is the relation between a city under a tyranny and the one under a kingship such as we first described?" "Everything is the opposite. "does the tyrannic man correspond to anything other than the city under a tyranny." "With respect to virtue." I said. let's go in and view the city as a whole. "this is necessarily so. again. since he has seen all that. the other the worst. But as to do you judge similarly or differently? And let's not be overwhelmed at the sight of the tyrant one man or a certain few around him. among whom he could most be seen stripped of the tragic gear." he said." their happiness and wretchedness." "And as city is to city with respect to virtue and happiness so is man to man?" "Of course.

" you'll find more complaining." this? Isn't such a city necessarily as "Quite necessarily. and that." slave or free?" least "And. the most depraved and maddest. those parts of it that are most decent be slaves while a small part. doesn't the city that do what it wants?" is slave and under a tyranny e it "By far. of course. therefore. that you looked to these things and others [ 258 ] .glaucon/socrates THEREPUBLIc I 577 b c "Certainly. "speaking of a city. lamenting or suffering in any other city?" "But. isn't it also necessary that same arrangement be in him and that his soul be filled with much slavery and illiberality. "in the highest possible degree. further. it be frill of confrision and regret. the soul wants —speaking of the will that is under a tyranny will least soul as a whole. and wret- ched. in a man. further." "Which ones?" he said. but virtually the whole of it and the most decent part is slave. then." "I do." "Come. tell of the states of both. then. you do see masters and free men in it too. "see a small part of the land. be master?" "That is necessary." he said." d the "If." "And therefore. reflect- "In the first place. without honor." said. and ing on each in turn. "a man is like his city. then. necessarily rich or poor?" "Of course. "And what about of fear as such a man?" "That's so. will you say that one under a tyranny is free or slave?" "Slave. do you believe there is more of this sort of thing anyone other than this tyrannic man maddened by desires and loves?" "How could b "I I?" he said. sighing. the tyrannic soul ridden and insatiable." I said." "And is the city under a tyranny "Poor." he said." he said." is necessarily always poverty- full he said." "Do you suppose "Not in at all. Always forcibly do what drawn by a gadfly. all suppose. is "What." I said." "However." 578 a "And. "and consider it in this way for me Recalhng for yourself the likeness of the city and the man. then? Will you assert that such a soul "Slave.

For." he said. now. "on the basis of what was said before. said. For they are similar to the tyrant ruling many." he said. the all men. "But. although the multitude of the tyrant is greater. "Well. what do you say about the tyran- 578 b ffac man in looking at these is I [ I "That he by far. "Yes. you know. be even more wretched than the other. I suppose. and his wife will be destroyed by the domestics?" "I think it will be extreme. one must not just suppose such things but must consider them quite well." b "How's that?" he said. in your opinion." life c private one." I said." man will. that the city as a "But do you recognize the cause?" whole defends the individual private "But what if man. is "What you say fine. and not frightened. his children. after all." he said.f^ook IX / 577b-578e $' tf socrates/glaucon -like them and judged "Wasn't I right in I I I "Quite right. and his children—and set them along with the rest of his property and the domestics in a desert place where none of the free men is going to be able to help him? What do you suppose will be the character and extent of his fear that he." "What man?" I said. "is not "Then who is?" "Perhaps this most wretched." this city to be the most wretched of cities." "You know domestics?" that they are confident." doing so?" he said. that what you say is true. "This man. of the "What would they be frightened "Nothing. his wife." "Yes." "I conjecture. "who is tyrannic and doesn't live out a but has bad luck and by some misfortune is given the occasion to become a tyrant. "the "In saying that." I said. same things?" most wretched of "you are no longer right. In d my opinion we must reflect on it from this point of view." some one of the gods were to lift one man who has fifty or more bondsmen out of the city—him. ^ [ 259 ] ." I said." he said." yet. "But in an argument such as this. the consideration is about the greatest thing. a good life and a bad "The man." "Which one?" "The point of view of the individual private men who are rich cities and possess many bondsmen." "Quite right." "Yes. thenj consider whether." I of?" said. I am saying anything. it is in in greater." I said.



579 a

"Wouldn't he now be compelled to fawn on some of his own and promise them much and free them although there is obligation for him to do so? And wouldn't he himself turn out to be the
flatterer of servants?"


he said, "or else be destroyed." "And," 1 said, "what if the god settled many other neighbors all around him who won't stand for any man's claiming to be another's master, and if they ever can get their hands on such a one, they subject him to extreme punishments." '"He would," he said, "'1 suppose, be in an even greater extreme of evil, watched on all sides by nothing but enemies."
"He's certainly compelled to,

"Isn't the tyrant



such a prison, he


has a nature such






and loves of all kinds? And he, whose so gourmand, alone of the men in the city can't go anywhere



abroad or see
in his


the things the other free


desire to see; but, stuck


he lives like a "woman, envying any of the other citizens who travel abroad and see anything good." "That's entirely certain," he said. "Therefore, it is a harvest greater by such ills that is reaped by a man who has a bad regime in himself the one you just now judged most wretched, the tyrannic man and who doesn't live out his life as a private man but is compelled by some chance to be a tyrant, and
for the



while not having control of himself attempts to rule others, just as




with a body that




vkithout control of itself

were com-

pelled to spend his
""The case
say, Socrates,


not in a private station but contesting and

fighting with other bodies."


every way most similar,
I said, "isn't this


said, "'and

what you

most true."
a perfectly wretched condistill

"'My dear Glaucon,"

and doesn't the

man who

a tyrant

have a



than the

man judged by you

have the hardest "That's entirely so," he said.



he doesn't seem so to someone, in truth a real slave to the greatest fawning and slavery, and a flatterer of the most worthless men; and with his desires getting no kind of satisfaction, he shows that he is most in need of the most things and poor in truth, if one knows how to look at a soul as a whole. Throughout his entire life his is full of fear, overflowing with convulsions and pains, if indeed he resembles the disposition of the city he rules. And he does resemble it, doesn't he?
the real tyrant



"Quite so," he


580 a














wBook IX 1 579a-580e



we spoke

of before? Isn't


necessary that he be

to ruling

more than before




580 a



to all this,

impious, and a host and nurse for



all vice; and, thanks the extreme; and then, that he make those close

him so?" "No one with any sense," he "Come, then," I said, "just

said, "will contradict


as the

man who

has the


in the


whole contest^ declares his choice, you, too, choose now for me your opinion is first in happiness, and who second, and the others


in order, five in all

—kingly, timocratic,

oligarchic, democratic, tyrannic."

"The choice is easy," he said. "For, vvith respect to virtue and and happiness and its opposite, I choose them, like choruses, in the very order in which they came on stage." "Shall we hire a herald then," I said, "or shall I myself announce that Ariston's son has decided that the best^ and most just man is happiest, and he is that man who is kingliest and is king of himself; while the worst and most unjust man is most wretched and he, in his turn, happens to be the one who, being most tyrannic, is most tyrant of himself and of the city?" "Let it have been announced by you," he said. "And shall I," I said, "add this to the proclamation: whether or not in being such they escape the notice of all human beings and




he said. "All right, then," I said. "That would be one proof for second one and see if there seems to be anything to it."
that to the proclamation,"

"Do add






is it?"


I said,

'just as a city is

divided into three forms, so the

soul of every single




divided in three, the thesis


yet of another proof, in

my me



is it?"

though there were also a threefold divio{ pleasures corresponding to these three, a single pleasure peculiar to each one; and similarly a threefold division of desires and
"This. It looks to

kinds of rule."

"How do you mean?" he said. "One part, we say, was that with which
of its


human being



another that with which he becomes spirited; as for the third, because

many forms, we had no peculiar name to call it by, but we named by what was biggest and strongest in it. For we called it the desiring part on account of the intensity of the desires concerned with eating, drinking, sex, and all their followers; and so, we also called it the





the REPUBLjpl

581 a

money-loving part, because such desires are most
of money."

by means

"That was right," he


"Then if we were we most satisfactorily

to say that its pleasure
fix it


and love is of gain, would one general form for the argument, so

when we speak of this part of the soul we will plainly indicate something to ourselves; and would we be right in calling it moneyloving and gain-loving?"

my opinion,

at least,"



"And what about

Don't we, of course, say that the spirited set on mastery, victory and good reputation?" always wholly


"Quite so."

we were





and honor-loving,


that strike the right note?"


"Very much the right note." "And, moreover, it's plain to everyone that the part with which learn is always entirely directed toward knowing the truth as it is;

and of the parts, it cares least for money and opinion." "By far." "Then would it be appropriate for us to call it learning-loving and

"Of course."


"doesn't this part rule in the souls of

some men,

while in that of others another of these parts rules, whichever


pens to be?"
"That's so,"





why we

assert that the three primary classes of hu-


beings are also three: wisdom-loving, victory-loving, gain-loving."
"Entirely so."

"Then, also of pleasures, are there three forms, one underlying
each of these?"


"Do you know," I said, "that if you were willing to ask three such men, each in turn, what is the sweetest of these lives, each would most laud his own? The money-maker will assert that, compared to gaining, the pleasure in being honored or in learning is worth nothing, unless he makes some money from them." "True," he said. "And what about the lover of honor?" I said. "Doesn't he believe the pleasure from money to be a vulgar thing and, on the other hand, the pleasure from learning whatever learning doesn't bring honor ^to be smoke and nonsense?"




Book IX 1 581a-582c


"That's so,"





"As for the lover of wisdom," I said, "what do we suppose he will hold about the other pleasures as compared with that of knowing the truth as it is and always being in some such state of pleasure while

Won't he hold them to be far behind in pleasure? And won't he call them really necessary since he doesn't need all the others if necessity did not accompany them?" "That we must know well," he said. "Since, then," I said, "the pleasures of each form, and the life itdispute with one another, not about living more nobly or self, shamefully or worse or better but about living more pleasantly and painlessly, how would we know which of them speaks most truly?" "I certainly can't say," he said. "Consider it in this way. By what must things that are going to be finely judged be judged? Isn't it by experience, prudence, and argument? Or could anyone have better criteria than these?" "How could he?" he said. "Now, consider. Of the three men, which is most experienced in all the pleasures of which we were speaking? Does the lover of gain, because he learns the truth itself as it is, seem to you to be more experienced in the pleasure that comes from knovidng than the lover of wisdom is in the pleasure that comes from gaining?" "There's a great difference," he said. "It's necessary for the latter to taste of the other pleasures starting in childhood. But for the lover of gain it's not necessary to taste, or to have experience of,

582 a


how sweet


the pleasure of learning the natural characteristics of

the things which are; rather even

he were eager



wouldn't be

"There's a great difference, then,"


"between the lover of
both the pleac

wisdom and the lover of gain

in their experience of

"Great indeed."

"And what about the lover of wisdom's

relation to the lover of

experienced in the pleasure that comes from being honored than the lover of honor is in the pleasure that comes from




"No," he said. "Honor accompanies them all, if each achieves its For the wealthy man is honored by many; and so are the courageous man and the wise one. Therefore, all have experience of the kind of pleasure that comes from being honored. But the kind of pleasure connected vnth the vision of what is cannot be tasted by anyone except the lover of wisdom."






582 d


said, "as for experience,



the finest judo


the three men."


"And, moreover, only he will have gained his experience

in the

company of prudence."
"Of course."
"Furthermore, as to the instrument by means of which judgment must be made, it is not the instrument of the lover of gain or the lover of honor but that of the lover of wisdom."

"What's that?"


surely said that

it is

by means of arguments

that judgment

must be made, didn't we?"

"And arguments

are especially the instrument of the philoso-


"Of course." "Now, if what is being judged were best judged by wealth and gain, what the lover of gain praised and blamed would necessarily be most true."




by honor, victory, and courage, wouldn't of honor and victory praised and blamed?"

be what the


583 a

by experience, prudence, and argument—" "What the lover of wisdom and the lover of argument praise would necessarily be most true," he said. "Therefore, of the three pleasures, the most pleasant would belong to that part of the soul with which we learn; and the man among us in whom this part rules has the most pleasant life." "Of course he has," he said. "At least it is as a sovereign praiser
"But since
that the prudent


praises his




life," I


what pleasure

"does the judge say second place?"


second place and

"Plainly that of the warlike

man and

lover of honor.




nearer to him than that of the money-maker."

"Then the pleasure of the lover of gain


in last place, as


"Of course," he


"Well then, that makes two in a row, and twice the just man has been victorious over the unjust one. Now the third, in Olympic fashion, to the savior and the Olympian Zeus.'' Observe that the other men's pleasure, except for that of the prudent man, is neither entirely true nor pure but is a sort of shadow painting, as I seem to have heard from




Book IX / 582d-584a


some one of the wise.
sovereign of the


yet this

would be the


and most

583 b

"By far. But what do you mean?" "With you answering and me seeking," "Ask," he said.
"Tell me,"


said, "I'll find out."


said, "don't


say pain


the opposite of pleasured'

"Quite so." "Don't we also say that being


by neither joy nor pain



"We do

indeed say that

it is."

with respect to them?

middle between these two, a certain repose of the soul Or don't you say it's that way?" so," he said. "Just "Don't you remember," I said, "the words of sick men, spoken
in the

when they are sick?" "What words?"

after all


before they were sick

is more pleasant than being healthy, but had escaped them that it is most pleasant."


do remember," he said. "And don't you also hear those who are undergoing some intense
suffering saying that nothing


pleasant than the cessation of suf-


do hear them."

suppose you are aware of many other similar cirI cumstances in which human beings, while they are in pain, extol as most pleasant not enjoyment but rather the absence of pain and repose from it." "For," he said, "at that time repose perhaps becomes pleasant and enough to content them." "And when a man's enjoyment ceases," I said, "then the repose from pleasure will be painful." "Perhaps," he said. "Therefore, what we were just saying is between the two repose —will at times be both, pain and pleasure." "So it seems." "And is it possible that what is neither can become both?" "Not in my opinion." "And, moreover, the pleasant and the painful, when they arise in the soul, are both a sort of motion, aren't they?"




"And didn't what is neither painful nor pleasant, however, come to light as repose and in the middle between these two?" "Yes, that's the way it came to light.""


584 a






584 a

"Then how can

be right to believe that the absence of suffering

pleasant or that the absence of enjoyment


no way."

"Therefore it is not so," I said, "but when it is next to the painful repose looks pleasant and next to the pleasant, painful; and in these appearances there is nothing sound, so far as truth of pleasure goes, only a certain wizardry."

"So the argument indicates, at least," he said. "Well, then," I said, "look at pleasures that don't come out of pains, so that you won't perhaps suppose in the present instance that it

naturally the case that pleasure



from pain and pain

rest from


"Where mean?"






"and what pleasures do you


"There are many others, too," I said, "but, if you are willing to on them, the pleasures of smells in particular. For these, without previous pain, suddenly become extraordinarily great and, once having ceased, leave no pain behind." "Very true," he said, "Then, let's not be persuaded that relief from pain is pure pleasure or that relief from pleasure is pure pain." "No, let's not," he said. "However," I said, "of the so-called pleasures stretched through the body to the soul, just about most, and the greatest ones, belong to this form; they are kinds of relief from pains."
"Yes, they are."
"Isn't this also the

arising from expectation of pleasures

case with the anticipatory pleasures and pains and pains that are going to be?"
sort of things they are


it IS.






"know what

and what

they are most like?"

"What?" he

said. said,




"hold that up, down, and middle are something

in nature?"
"I do."

brought from the downward region to the middle would suppose anything else than that he was being brought up? And standing in the middle and looking away to the place from which he was brought, would he believe he was elsewhere than in the upper region since he hasn't seen the true up?" "No, by Zeus," he said. "I don't suppose such a man would suppose otherwise."

"Do you suppose

that a





Book IX 1 584a-585c


he were brought back," I said, "would he suppose he was being brought down and suppose truly?" "Of course." "And wouldn't he undergo all this due to being inexperienced in what is truly above, in the middle, and below?"


584 e

if those who are inexperienced in unhealthy opinions about many other things, so too they are disposed toward pleasure and pain and what's between them in such

"Then would you be surprised'

truth, as they have




when they

are brought to the painful, they suppose truly and

585 a

are really in pain, but,

when brought from

the painful to the in-

suppose they are nearing fulfillment and pleasure; and, as though out of lack of experience of white they looked from gray to black, out of lack of experience of pleasure they look from pain to the painless and are deceived?" "No, by Zeus," he said, "I wouldn't be surprised; I'd be far more


if this

weren't the case."

"Reflect on



I said.

"Aren't hunger, thirst, and such

things kinds of emptiness of the body's condition?"


"Of course."
"Aren't ignorance and imprudence in their turn emptiness of the
soul's condition?"

"Quite so." "And wouldn't the

man who

partakes of nourishment and the one


gets intelligence




"As to fullness,


the truer fullness that of a thing which is less or of one




which is more." "Which of the classes do you believe participates more in pure being: the class of food, drink, seasoning, and nourishment in general, or the form of true opinion, knowledge, intelligence and, in sum, of all virtue? Judge it in this way: In your opinion which thing is more: one that is connected with something always the same, immortal and true, and is such itself and comes to be in such a thing; or one that is connected with something never the same and mortal, and is such itself and comes to be in such a thing? "That," he said, "which is connected with what is always the same
"Plainly that of one



ticipate in

"And the being of that which is always the same, does being any more than in knowledge?"^
at all."







585 c

"Any- more than in truth?"

"No, not that either."


if less in truth, less in

being also?"



isn't it

the care of the body ing to do with the care of the soul?"

the case that the classes that have to do with participate less in truth and being than those hav-



"Don't you suppose the same pared to soul?"
"I do."

the case with


itself as



is full

of things that are more,


itself is

more, really


than what

is full

of things that are less and pleasant to

itself is less?"

"Of course."
suitable, that
if it is







really full of things that are

cause one to enjoy true pleasure more really and truly,
takes in things that are less

by nature more would while what paris

586 a


would be less truly and surely full and would partake in a pleasure less trustw^orthy and less true." "Most necessarily," he said. "Therefore, those who have no experience of prudence and virtue but are always living with feasts and the like are, it seems, brought dov^Ti and then back again to the middle and throughout life wander in this way; but, since they don't go beyond this, they don't look upward toward what is truly above, nor are they ever brought to it; and they aren't filled with what really is, nor do they taste of a pleasure that is sure and pure; rather, after the fashion of cattle, always looking down and with their heads bent to earth and table, they feed, fattening themselves, and copulating; and, for the sake of getting more of these things, they kick and butt with horns and hoofs of iron, killing each other because they are insatiable; for they are not filling the part of themselves that is, or can contain anything, with things that are." "That, Socrates," said Glaucon, "is exactly the life of the many presented in the form of an oracle." "Then isn't it also necessary that the pleasures they live with be mixed with pains—mere phantoms and shadow paintings of true pleasure? Each takes its color by contrast with the others, so that they look vivid and give birth to frenzied loves of themselves in the foolish and are fought over, like the phantom of Helen that Stesichorus says the men at Troy fought over out of ignorance of the truth."^ "It's most necessary," he said, "that it be something like that." "And what about this? In what concerns the spirited part, won't other like things necessarily come to pass for the man who brings this





Book IX / 585c-587b


part to

either by envy due to love of honor, or by its fulfillment violence due to love of victory, or by anger due to ill-temper—pursuing
satisfaction of honor, victory,


and anger without calculation and



"such things are necessary." "What then?" 1 said. "Shall we be bold and say this: Of the desires concerned with the love of gain and the love of victory, some—followers of knowledge and argument—pursue in company with them the pleasures to which the prudential part leads and take only these; such desires will take the truest pleasures, so far as they can


this part, too,"

take true ones—because they follow truth


those that are most

owti-if indeed what is best for each thing is also most properly own?" "But, of course," he said, "that is what is most its owti." "Therefore, when all the soul follows the philosophic and is not factious, the result is that each part may, so far as other things are concerned, mind its own business and be just and, in particular, enjoy its


pleasures, the best pleasures, and, to the greatest possible extent,

the truest pleasures."
""That's entirely certain."



"And, therefore, when one of the other parts gets control, the is that it can't discover its owti pleasure and compels the others to pursue an alien and untrue pleasure."

"That's so,"



"Doesn't what

most distant from philosophy and argument pro-

duce such results?" "By far." "And is what is most distant from law and order most distant from argument?"


didn't the erotic

and tyrannic desires come to

light as


"By far." "And the kingly and orderly ones

least distant?"





suppose the tyrant will be most distant from a pleasure is properly his owti, while the king is least distant."
will live


"And therefore," I said, "the tyrant and the king most pleasantly."
"Quite necessarily."

most unpleasantly

"Do you know,"
life is



"how much more unpleasant

the tyrant's

than the king's?"




It was. fled are." he said. "a tyrant is removed from true pleasure by a number that is three times three. let's take up again the first things said. if me." said. "and appropriate to lives too." "You've poured forth."11 "But. he will find at the end of the multiplication that he lives 729 times more pleasantly. then." said. stood third from the oligarchic man. won't his victory in grace. if days and nights and months and years are appropriate to them . dwells with a bodyguard of certain slave and the extent of his inferiority isn't at all easy to tell." "It's clear. be a plane?"^** e 588 a "But then it becomes clear how great the distance of separation is on the basis of the square and the cube. length. I believe. of course." he said. "There bastard. "Since we are at this point in the argu- ment. "a prodigious calculation of the difference between the two men —the just and the unjust—in pleasure and pain." "Therefore. he third. and two ones." he said. they are appropriate. if what went before is true?" "That's so. and virtue of life be greater to a prodigious degree?" "To a prodigious degree. those thanks to which we have come here. once he has law and argimient. except perhaps as follows." I said. "Then if the good and just man's victory in pleasure over the bad and unjust man is so great. by Zeus." "Then if one turns it around and says how far the king is removed from the tyrant in truth of pleasure.GLAUCON/sCXaRATES THE REPUBLIP you tell it 587 b c "I will. while the tyrant lives more disagreeably by the same distance. of course." he said." I on the basis of the number of "Entirely so. indeed. beauty. going out beyond the bastard genuine." "How?" he said. said that doing injustice is profitable [ 270 ] . "to the man skilled in calculation. "the "It looks like it." "And d if the oligarchic man is in his turn third from the kingly man." he said. "Yes." respect to truth "Then wouldn't he dwell with a phantom of pleasure that with is third from that other. three pleasures —one The tyrant." I said." we count the aristocratic and the kingly is man "Yes." pleasures. b "All right. the man of the people was between them." its phantom of tyrannic pleasure would. as the same. "The tyrant." "And yet the number is true. as seems." I "Therefore.

"is exactly what would be meant by the man who to feast him and make strong the manifold beast and the 589 praises doing injustice. "they < being. a throng of them. Let the first be by far the greatest. and the second. and that it's not advantageous for him to do just things. then. many-headed beast that has a ring of heads of tame and savage beasts and can change them and make all of them grow from itself. second in size. while starving the human being and making him weak so that he can be drawn wherever either of the others leads and doesn't habituate them to one another or make them friends but lets them bite and fight and devour each other." I said. a human "Yes. then.Book IX / 587b-589a socrates/glaucoi for the man who that the it is perfectly unjust but has the reputation of being just. it 533 j Or isn't way was said?" "Yes." "What sort of image?" he said." then." he said. so that in some way they grow naturally together with each other. mold a single idea for a many-colored." "They are joined. nevertheless." "That. and a single one for a human being." he said. used to come into being in olden times—the Chimsera. "By molding an image of the soul in speech so that the man who says these things will see just what he has been saying." "On the other hand." he said. it looks like one animal. "But." "Well." "Now. "Then mold about them on the outside an image of one—that of the human being—so that to the man who's not able to see what's inside." "That's a job for a clever molder. mold another single idea for a lion. "let's discuss with him. was."^^ do tell of such things. "and the molding is done." he said. since speech is more easily molded than wax and the like. since "Now "How?" he said. Scylla." he said. Cerberus. join them—they are three—in one." we have agreed about the respective powers of doing injustice and doing just things." he said." "The outer mold is in place. but sees only the outer shell." "Well then. "Then let's say to the one who says that it's profitable for this human being to do injustice. and certain others. "One of those natures such as the tales say naturally together in one. that he's affirming nothing other than that it is profitable for lion and what's connected with the lion. consider it as molded." "That's easier. wouldn't the one who says the just things [ 271 ] . which are said to have been many ideas grown .

for reasons of this kind. making them friends with each other and himself. rather to the divine part ^while the base things enslave the tame to the savage?' Will he agree or not?" "He will." d e 590 a persuade him gently for he isn't willingly 'You blessed man. surely. while hindering the er. wouldn't we affirm that law^l noble and base things have come into being on such grounds as these." "In my opinion. won't he then be wretched and accept golden gifts for a destruction more terrible by far than Eriphyle's accepting the necklace for her hus"Well. if he's persuaded by me. it wouldn't have profited him no matter how much he took for it. growth of the savage ones making the lion's nature an ally and. the praiser of the just tells the truth." he said. now if he enslaves the most divine part of himself to the most godless and polluted part and has no pity. the c man who lauds the just things would lie. "he doesn't then. perhaps. and to savage and bad men. caring for all in common. and benefit. it and many-formed beast is given freer rein than ought to have?" "Plainly. "on the basis of this argument. the noble things cause the bestial part of our nature to be subjected to the human being or. that it be profitable for anyone to take gold unjustly if something like this happens: he takes the gold and at the same time enslaves the best part of himself to the most depraved? Or. "And aren't stubbornness and bad temper blamed when they in- [ 272 ] . let's know it at all. if he took gold for enslaving his son or daughter." said Glaucon. considering pleasure. "Is it possible. "I'll answer you on his behalf" "Don't you suppose that being licentious has also long been blamed great. and so rear them?" "That is exactly what in turn is meant by the man who praises the take charge of the — nourishing and cultivating the — just." he said." he said.sochates/glaucon the republic human necessary to do and say those things being within will most be in control of the huit 589 a are profitable affirm that is from which the b man being and many-headed beast like a fanntame heads. For. good reputation." I said. since by that sort of thing that terrible. while the blamer says nothing healthy and blames speak the truth and the man who lauds the unjust ones would without knowing what he blames. "In every respect. mistaken —by questioning him: — — — band's soul?"^^ "Far more terrible indeed.

and "And in what way is it profitable to get [ 273 ] . to the mob-like beast." "Yes. their not being set free until we establish a regime in them as in a city. when as a result of these things one will be worse. as Thrasymachus supposed about the ruled. also makes it plain that it wants something of the kind. so that insofar as possible all will be alike and friends. and on the basis of what argument. letting it be insulted for the sake of money and the beast's insatiability. piloted by the same thing. if not. "they do make that plain. and is capable of learning only the things that flatter them?" "So it seems. but that it's better for all to be ruled by what is divine and prudent. or do anything base. but." "And the law." "Yes. will 591 we affirm that it is profitable to do injustice. set over one from outside. away with doing injustice and not pay the penalty? Or doesn't the man who gets away with it become still worse. do we set them free. especially when one has it as his own within himself. "as an ally of all in the city." I said." 590 i "And aren't lixxury and softness blamed for slackening it?" and relax- ing this same part when they introduce cowardice in "Of course." he said. the spirited." "And aren't flattery and illiberality blamed when a man subjects this same part. as for the man who doesn't get away with it and the is punished." "Then in what way. but only of serving them." he said.Book IX / 589a-591b socrates/glaucoi harmoniously strengthen and strain the lion-like and snake-like part?" "Most certainly. while. or be licentious." he said. "And why do you suppose mechanical and manual art bring reproach? Or shall we say that this is because of anything else than when the form of the best is by nature so weak in a man that he isn't capable of ruling the beasts in himself. "that's right. and until—having cared for the best part in them with the like in ourselves—we establish a similar guardian and ruler in them to take our place. isn't the bestial part of him put to sleep and tamed. and. and so does the rule over the children." he said. "In order that such a man also be ruled by something similar to what rules the best man. don't we say that he must be the slave of that best man who has the divine rule in himself? It's not that we suppose the slave must be ruled to his own detriment. even though one acquires more money or more of some other power?" "In no way. only then." he said. habituates it from youth on to be an ape instead of a lion?" "Quite so. Glaucon.

"if it's that he cares about. However. "not only won't he turn the habit and nourishment of the body over to the bestial and irrational pleasure and live turned in that direction. or fair unless he's also going to become moderate as a result of them. honoring the studies that will make his soul such. in proportion as soul is more honorable than body?" "That's entirely certain. he looks fixedly at the regime within him." "I understand. by the dog. while despising the rest?" "Plainly. he won't be willing to mind the political things. "And." he said. insofar as possible. "You mean he will in the city whose foundation we have now gone through. "and guards against upsetting anything in it by the possession of too much or too little substance. but he'll not even look to health. while those that would overturn his established habit he will flee. perhaps he won't in his fatherland unless some divine chance coincidentally comes to pass." of "And won't he also maintain order and concord in the acquisition money? I said. his substance. he looks to the same thing. "if sake of the accord in the soul." I said. "And. in the first place." to ." he said. nor give precedence to being d strong. he governs his additions to. "Next." he said. "Then won't the man who has intelligence strain all of his powers to that end as long as he lives. " [ 274 ] . and doesn't his whole soul brought to its best nature acquiring moderation and justice accompanied by prudence—gain a habit more worthy of honor than the one a body gains with strength and beauty accompanied by health." he said. in private and in public." "That's entirely certain. "Yes. will he give boundless increase to the bulk of his property and thus possess boundless evils?" "rdon't suppose he will. very much so." he said. he will willingly partake of and taste those that he believes will make him better.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLIc — 591 b c tame part freed. since he's not impressed with what the many " deem e 592 a b be blessedness. "he will in his own city. with honors too. since I don't suppose it exists anywhere on earth. "Rather." I said. healthy." he's going to be truly musical." he said." I said. the one that has its place in speeches. and expenditure of. In this way. "That's quite certain." "Then. further. rather he will always be seen adjusting the body's harmony for the he said.

and of no other. a pattern is laid up for the man who wants to see and found a city within himself on the basis of what 592 b he sees. It doesn't make any difference whether it is or will be somewhere." he said." "That's likely. For he would mind the things of this city alone." I said. [ 275 ] . "perhaps.Book IX / 591b-592b scxsrates/glaucon "But in heaven.


BOOKX "And. "And yet. he said. "Then listen. must not be admitted looks. it must be told. answer. "In not admitting at all any part of it that is imitative. must be told." b all "How do you mean?" and all the all such things seem to maim the thought of those who hear them and do not as a remedy have the knowledge of how "Between us —and you other imitators— won't denounce me to the tragic poets they really are. in my opineven more manifest now that the soul's forms have each been separated out. and shame before him. For he seems to have been the first teacher and leader of all these fine tragic things. Still and all. For that the more than anything. ion." I said. indeed. "It "What c "Ask." are you thinking about in saying that?" he said. " this city that this particularly I said. or rather." [ 277 ] . as I say. "I also recognize in we were entirely right in the when reflecting on poetry. a certain friendship for Homer. a man must not be honored before the truth. but I say 595 a "What about imitative. prevents me from speaking. but. which has possessed me since childhood." he said." it?" many other aspects of way we founded it." "Most certainly.

" "Which one?" "He who makes everything that each one of the manual artisans makes separately. For this same manual artisan is not only able to make all implements but also makes everything that grows naturally from the earth." "Yes. there are presumably two. you wish. one of couch. "Not yet. will comprehend it. could a maker of all these things come into being and in a certain way not? Or aren't you aware that you yourself could in a certain way make all these "Aren't also we of each implement that " " — — " things?" 278 ] ." he said." he said." c d accustomed to say that it is in looking to the idea one craftsman makes the couches and another the chairs we use." for "Of course:" "But as for ideas for these furnishings. of course. "That's quite a wonderful sophist you speak of. and similarly for other things? For presumably none of the craftsmen fabricates the idea itself. in addition to that." I said." "Then b example. "But vdth you present I couldn't be very eager to say whatever might occur to me. "since men with duller vision have often. in your opinion could there be altogether no such craftsman. produces earth and heaven and gods and everything in heaven and everything in Hades under the earth. one of table. beginning from the following point? For we are. and he produces all animals the others and himself too and." "That wouldn't be anything strange. In an instant you'll say that even more. "that I. so look yourself. see what you call this craftsman here. presumably." "That's so.socrates/glaucon the republic 595 c 596 a tell me what imitation in general is? For I myself comprehend what it wants to be. Or don't you understand?" "I do." "Then it follows. "And tell me. "That's a clever and wonderful man you speak of. How could he?" "In no way. there are surely many couches and tables. "Do you want us to make our consideration according to our "Could you scarcely customary procedure." he said. seen things before those who see more sharply." "Well. if let's now set down any one of the 'manys' you please. accustomed to set down some one particular form for each of the particular 'manys' to which we apply the same name. "Are you distrustful?" I said. or in a certain way. you know. now.

I suppose. quickly. of course. he would run the risk of saying what's not true. isn't said." place." not be surprised " let's if this too turns out to be a dim thing compared to the truth." "Yes." I b "want us on the basis of these very things to "Do you. but is not being." "And then one that the carpenter produced. 1 suppose. For I I "and you attack the argument at just the right suppose the painter is also one of these craftsmen. which we would say. 1 is." he said. yourself and the other animals and implements and plants and everything else that was "And what. isn't that so?" be so. "Yes. and quickly. in arguments of this kind. suppose you'll say that he doesn't truly And yet in a certain way the painter too does make what he make a couch." "Yes. then. say is just a couch." he said. of course. however." investigate who said. a god produced. let's not. he wouldn't make the being but something that is like the being." "And what about the couchmaker? Weren't you just saying that he doesn't make the form." he said. "so that they look like they are. this imitator is?" is "If you want to." "Then. they surely are not in truth. "There turn out. "And one "Let it that the painter produced. "I was saying that. if he doesn't make what is." "Fine." he said. And if someone were to assert that the work of the producer of couches or of any other manual artisan is completely being." he said. Or who else?" "No one else. e just now mentioned." [ 279 ] ." "Yes." said. "at least that would be the opinion of those who spend their time "Therefore." he said. "No. doesn't he?" makes what looks like a couch." he said. if you are willing to take a mirror and carry it around everywhere. "is that I 596 d "It's not hard. quickly you will make the sun and the things in the heaven. to be these three kinds of couches: one that in nature. " he?" "Of course he "But makes. "he too 597 a but a certain couch?" "Yes.Book X I 595c-597b glaucon/socrates way?" "You could fabricate them quickly in many ways and most quickly. the earth. which is what we.

" "Probably. [ 280 ] . he said. the god. and come to light the form of that. call the man at the third genera' "And e tion from nature an imitator? "Most certainly. And two or more such weren't naturally engendered by the god nor will they be necessity was laid begotten. begot it as one by nature. if he is an are imitator." he said. would be the couch that is." "How do you mean?" he said." "And what about the carpenter? Isn't he a craftsman of a couch?" this "Yes." is the painter also a craftsman and maker of such a thing?" "Not at all. 597 h "Then couchmaker. . "Then.socrates/glaucon the republic painter." said. "if "So it seems. knowing this and wanting to be a real maker of a couch that really is and not a certain couchmaker of a certain couch. I suppose." us to address "Do you want thing of the kind?" him as its nature-begetter or some- "That's just at any rate. three. all he is naturally third from a king and the truth." "How's that?" he "Because." 598 a "Then we have agreed about the imitator." "But what of a couch will you say he is?" "In my opinion. god —these three preside over three forms of couches "Yes." I said. and not the two. "Such as they are or such as they look? For you " still have to make this further distinction." he said. the god. "do you. "since by nature he has made and everything else. or the works of the craftsmen?" "The works of the craftsmen." he said." c "Now. "he would most sensibly be addressed as an imitator of that of which these others are craftsmen. whether he didn't want to or whether some upon him not to produce more than one couch in nature. made only one. does he in each case attempt to imitate the thing itself in nature. "All right. as the other imitators. "Therefore this will also apply to the maker of tragedy." both he said. that very one which is a couch. then. Now tell me this about the painter. again one would which they in turn would both possess." I said. "Right. d he should make only two. In your opinion.

Because he himself is unable to put knowledge and lack of knowledge and imitation to the test. will paint for us a shoemaker. must be considered." "Very true. Toward which is painting directed each case—toward imitation of the being as it is or toward its looking it "Now b looks? Is it imitation of looks or of truth?" said." he "Therefore. and similarly with the rest?" 598 a "The latter is so. saying that he has encountered a human being who knows all the crafts and everything else that single men severally know. that this is what must be understood about all such things: when anyone reports to us about someone." in as consider this very point. and the divine things too. we say. differ at all from itself? Or does it not differ at all but only look different. they do not recognize that these works are third from what is and are easy to make for the man who doesn't know the truth—for such a man makes what look like beings but are not. it and. that man seemed all-wise to him. But. if he is a good painter. my friend. Homer. next. as it seems. or from the front. Does a couch. or from anywhere else." I said. "tragedy and its leader. imitation it surely far from the truth. For it is necessary that the good poet. I suppose. as it is due produces everything—because it lays hold of a certain small part of each thing." "But. For example. seeing their works. by painting a carpenter and displaying him from far off. and whether. again. "Then. he has encountered some wizard and imitator and been deceived. if he is going to make fair poems about the things his poetry concerns." he said. is there also something to what they d e 599 a [ 281 ] . and there is nothing that he does not know more precisely than anyone else. therefore. Hence.Book X I 597b-599c sockates/glaucon "Like this. nevertheless. although he doesn't understand the arts of any one of them." "Of course. he would deceive children and foolish human beings into think- to this that c ing that it is truly a carpenter. be in possession of knowledge when he makes his poems or not be able to make them. and that part is itself only a phantom. but isn't. the painter. since we hear from some that these men know all arts and all things human that have to do with virtue and vice. a carpenter. looks. in any event. it would have to be replied to such a one that he is an innocent human being and that. is "Of seems. "It looks different." he said. and the other craftsmen. if you observe it from the side. Or. we must consider whether those who tell us this have encountered these imitators and been deceived.

as Lacedaemon was thanks to Lycurgus. is said to have made healthy. "Well. in the opinion of the many. c let's not if demand an account from Homer or any other of the poets by asking. then." "Well.^ Nor. just the one we defined as an imitator." he said. they say well?" b "Most certainly. and about the education of a human being it is surely just to ask him and inquire. if you are not third from the truth about virtue. he would permit himself to be serious about the crafting of the phantoms and set this at the head of his own life as the best thing he has?" "No." just as for Thales the Milesian or Anacharsis the Scythian?"^ "Not all. do they activities. [ 282 ] . or what students of medicine he left behind as Asclepius did his ofiFspring. "For the honor and the benefit coming from the two are hardly equal." said Glaucon. 'Dear Homer." "Do you suppose that if a man were able to make both. he also imitates. and we for Solon. were thanks to many others? What city gives you credit for having proved a good lawgiver and benefited them? Italy and Sicily do so for Charondas. again. any one of them was d e and not only an imitator of medical speeches.socrates/gi^ucon the republic really 599 a say." he said. as tell is appropriate to the deeds of a wise man. both great and small. will we ask them about the other arts." "I suppose so. tell us which of the cities was better governed thanks to you. old or new." suppose. then. and many others. is any war in Homer's time remembered that was well a doctor whom — — ' 600 a fought with his ruling or advice?" "None." I if he were in truth a knower of these things that he would be far more serious about the deeds than the imitations and would try to leave many fair deeds behind as memorials of himself and would be more eager to be the one who is lauded rather than the one who lauds. "that must be tested. the thing to be imitated and the phantom. as Asclepius did." "Well. a craftsman of a phantom. about the other things. the Homeridae themselves do not tell of any. but are also second and able to recognize what sorts of practices make human beings better or worse in private and in public. who are the men any poet. I don't. But about the greatest and fairest things of which Homer attempts to speak about wars and commands of armies and governances of cities. but we'll let that go. of many at ingenious devices for the arts or any other there's nothing of the sort. and do the good poets know about the things that.2 now who does it for you?' Will he have any to mention? "I don't suppose so. "At least. "But.

while he was himself alive. as we were just now saying. I suppose we'll claim the poetic man also uses names and phrases to color each of the arts. Socrates. the Abderite.Book X I 599a-601a socrates/glaucon "Well. Then do you suppose that if he were able to help human beings toward virtue. was in private a leader in education for certain 600 a men who cherished him for his intercourse and handed down b a certain Homeric way of life to those who came after." I said. the painter wdll make what seems to be a shoemaker to those who understand as little about shoemaking as he understands. "nothing of the sort name to a way among men. 601 a [ 283 ] . Glaucon." my opinion.^ and very many others are able. if there is nothing in public. He seems to do so when he speaks using meter. that is told. but who observe only colors and shapes. in this way. the Cean. when he was alive. just as Pythagoras himself was particularly cherished for this reason. beginning with Homer. Socrates. "what you say is entirely "Shouldn't we set down all those skilled in making." "Yes." of life that c d e "In true. until they had gained an adequate education?" makes them seem somehow outstanding "Again. to men whose condition is like his own and who observe only speeches. rhythm. Homer's comrade. and Prot dicus. and his successors even now still give Pythagoras' is said." "Most certainly. is it told that Homer. wouldn't they themselves have attended^ them wherever they went. to speak very well. or. if Homer were really able to educate human beings and make them better because he is in these things capable not of imitating but of knowing." he said. then. rather. if they weren't persuaded. For Creophylos. as imitators of phantoms of virtue and of the other subjects of their making? They don't lay hold of the truth. For it is told that Homer suffered considerable neglect in his own day. the men in Homer's time would have let him or Hesiod go around being rhapsodes and wouldn't have clung to them rather than to their gold? And wouldn't they have compelled these teachers to stay with them at home." he said. after all. "But. but he imitates in such a way as to seem. "Then. perhaps turn out to be even more ridiculous in his education than in his name. by private intercourse. would. to impress upon the men of their time the assurance that they will be able to govern neither home nor city unless they themselves supervise their education.^ if the things said about Homer are true. and they are so intensely loved for this wisdom that their comrades do everything but carry them about on their heads. do you suppose that he wouldn't have made many comrades and been honored and cherished by them? But Protagoras. He himself doesn't understand.

surely. I suppose you know how they look." "Then does the painter understand how the reins and the bit must be? Or does even the maker not understand—the smith and the leathercutter—^but only he who knows how to use them. and the other will serve him. then. have seen." he said. So great is the charm that these things by nature possess. and rightness of each implement. let's not leave it half. "A painter. c Isn't that so?" "Well. or grew naturally?" "That's so. The maker of the phantom." "Yes. "Come now. one that will imitate. generalship. but let's see it adequately. trusting him." "Doesn't the man who knows report about good and bad flutes. one make." "Of course. and won't the "Yes.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLIp 601 a b and harmony. make them?" [ 284 ] .said. a flute player surely reports to the flute-maker which ones would serve him in playing. the horseman?" "Very true. then." he said. animal. or anything else." it is. "resemble the faces of the boys who are youthful but not fair in what happens to their looks when the bloom has forsaken them?" "Exactly. and action related to nothing but the use for which each was made." "I have indeed. For example." I said. "Don't they." other. of the instrument he uses. beauty. the imitator." "And won't we say that it is so for everything?" "How?" d that will "For each thing there are these three arts—one that will use. we say." "But a shoemaker and a smith will make them." he said. will paint reins and a bit. no matter whether the subject is shoemaking." "Aren't the virtue." "Speak." "It's quite necessary. we "Yes." say. reflect on this." "Certainly. that the man who uses each thing be or most experienced and that he report to the maker what are the good e bad points. understands nothing of what is but rather of what looks like "Yes. in actual use. For when the things of the poets are stripped of the colors of the music and are said alone. For you. about flutes. by themselves. and he will prescribe how they must be made.

" _ "But all the same." imitator will "It doesn't so. "And haven't measuring. and weighing come [ 2S5 ] ." "Most certainly. so far as goes. with respect to beauty neither know nor opine seem imitator. when seen in water and also both concave and convex. would be a charming chap." "Then it looks like we are pretty well agreed on these things: the imitator knows nothing worth mentioning about what he imitates. although he doesn't know in b what way each thing is bad or good. But as it seems." wisdom about what he makes "Hardly. and and out of d many other tricks of the kind fall nothing short of wizardry." is I said. due to the sight's being misled by the colors." "Of course he will. counting. and those who take up tragic poetry in iambics and in epics are all imitators in the highest possible degree. whatever looks to be fair to the many who don't know anything—that he will imitate. he will imitate." "Certainly. and every sort of confusion of this kind is plainly in our soul. The same magnitude surely doesn't look equal to our sight from near and from far. imitation is a kind of play and not serious. then." to light as True. on which one of the parts of the human being does it have the power it has?" "What sort of part do you mean?" "This sort." "And the same things look bent and straight it. and puppeteering." "The making. And. "then. the what he imitates." name of Zeus. isn't this imitating con- c cerned with something that third from the truth? Isn't that so?" "Now.f Book r X / 601a-602d socrates/glaucon ? • "Therefore the maker of the same implement will have right trust concerning its beauty and its badness from being with the man who 601 e I knows and from being compelled the user will have knowledge. it doesn't. while 602 a "And will the imitator from using the things that he paints have receiving knowledge of whether they due to the necessity of being with the prescriptions of how he must paint?" are fair "Neither. it is because they take advantage of this affection in our nature that shadow painting. in his rightly about and badness." "In the "Yes. then." and right or not." "No." to listen to the man who knows. or right opinion man who knows and "Therefore.

" impossible for the same thing to opine contraries at the same time about the same things?" "Didn't say that said it we is "And what we 603 a is right. "apply only to the imitation connected with the sight or also to that connected with the hearing. "that it applies also to this. and is not comrade and friend for any "Well." said. imitation keeps company with the part in us that is far from prudence. the part of the soul opining contrary to the measures would not be the same measures. but let's now go directly to the very part of thought with which poetry's imitation keeps company and see whether it is ordinary "Well." this surely must be the work of the calculating part that part. it healthy or true purpose. when "Yes.sockates/glaucon THEREPUBLI 602 d most charming helpers in these cases? As a result of them." [ 286 ] ." "Undeniably. produces ordinary offspring. measured. an ordinary thing having intercourse with what ordinary. if you please weighed. "Therefore. often contrary appearances are presented at the same time about the same things. moreover." "Does this. the part which trusts measure and calculation would be the best part of the soul." in a "Yes. and that." "Exactly. "let's not just trust the likelihood or serious. which we name is "It poetry?" "It is likely." "Therefore." "Therefore. the part opposed to things in us." "Necessarily." "Of course. it wouldn't." "And to it. then." he I said. or. or equal." as the part that does so in accordance with the "No. further." ^ based on painting. imitation." e "But soul." seems so." it would be one of the ordinary h was this I wanted agreed to when I said that painting and imitation as a whole are far from the truth when they produce their work." "And. rather we are ruled by that which has calculated." he said. we are not ruled by a thing's looking bigger or smaller or more or heavier. it is the work of it has measured and indicates that some things are bigger or smaller than others. then." I said.

is a human being faction of one mind? Or. there also faction in him when it comes to deeds and does he do battle with himself? But I am reminded that there's no need for us to come to an agreement about this now. "Yes." e "What was that?" I he said." "Now me this about him." he said." "Undeniably." I said." [287 ] . in all this." Was there anything else beyond this?" "Then. "is closer to the truth. asserting that our soul teems with ten thousand such oppositions arising at the same time. Do you and hold out against it more when he is alone by himself in a deserted place?" "Surely. "When the human being about same thing same time. just as with in respect to the sight there was and he had contrary opinions is d himself at the same time about the same things. Imitation. and experiencing pain or enjoyment." suppose he'll fight the pain seen by his peers. as we bear it more easily than other men. as a result of the action. imitates human in all of beings performing forced or voluntary actions." gets as his share all. but that he will somehow be sensible in the face of "The latter. "A decent man." let's consider whether he won't be grieved at or whether this is impossible. it is now necessary to go through. he'll dare to utter many things of which he would be ashamed if someone were to hear. and." "Now pain." it 603 c in this "Let's present way. will some such chance which he cares particularly." "That's so." as losing a son or said. argument and law that tell him to hold out. "he will fight it far more when seen." "Isn't it fering itself he said. I suppose. supposing themselves to this have done well or badly. For in the previous arguments we came to sufficient agreement about all this. we say." "Rightly. "Nothing." tell he said. while the is what draws him to the pain?" a contradictory tendency arises in a at the suf- h True. in my opinion. it was right.Book X / 602d-604b glaucon/socrates "We must. "who something else for were surely also saying then. "Certainly. we say that there are necessarily two things in him. and will do many things he would not choose to have anyone see him do." he said. or when he is 604 a "But when left alone. "But what we then left out.

" he said." "That's entirely certain. "Deliberation. idle. "at all events." "Therefore it would at last be just for us to seize him and set him beside the painter as his antistrophe. For the imitation tion that is surely alien to them. easily understood. One must accept the fall of the dice and settle one's affairs accordingly~in whatever way argument declares would be best. One must not behave like children who have stumbled and who hold on to the hurt place and spend their time in crying out. would be the most correct way for a man to face what chance brings. "about what has happened. which is always when is nearly equal to itself." of a condi- "Then plainly the imitative poet isn't naturally directed toward any such part of the soul. and he is also similar in keeping company with a part of the soul that is on the same [ 288 ] . nor does taking c finest to keep as quiet as possi- ble in misfortunes and not be irritated. For he is like the painter in mak- b ing things that are ordinary by the standard of truth." "That." "Plainly." "And. doing away with lament by medicine." I said. since the good it and bad in such d hard get one anywhere. the irritable disposition affords imitation.socrates/gi^ucon the REPUBLIq "Isn't 604 h the one ready to be persuaded in whatever direction the law so?" it is leads?" "How "The law presumably says that things aren't plain. rather one must always habituate the soul to turn as quickly as possible to curing and setting aright what has fallen and is sick. and being in pain is an impediment to the coming of that thing the support of which we need as quickly as possible in these cases. imitated. won't we say that it is irrational. especially by a festive assembly where all sorts of human 605 a beings are gathered in a theater." "—whereas the part that leads to reminiscences of the suffering and to complaints and can't get enough of them. is neither easily imitated nor. and a friend of cowardice?" "Certainly we'll say that." "What do you mean?" he said. and his wisdom isn't framed for satisfying it—if he's going to get a good reputation among the many—but rather toward the irritable and various disposition. because it is easily imitated. nor are any of the human things worthy of great seriousness. we say." e "Now then. while the prudent much and varied and quiet character. the best part is willing to follow this calculation—" "Plainly.

" bad regime in the soul of c "Most certainly. "Is that a fine know it. |by making wicked men mighty. and. "We see a man whom we would not condescend. and it isn't shameful for it. we enjoy it and praise it?" "No. destroys the calculating part." "I d that. since it is by nature such as to desire these things. if some other man who claims to be good laments out of season. if it does indeed do that. is surely quite terrible." I said. taking this to be the part of a man and what we then praised to be that of a woman. it is." "Certainly. "But when of course. rather "In what "If you are b [ 289 ] . by Zeus. just as in a city when someone. and. suffering along with the hero in all seriousness. we pride ourselves if we are able to keep quiet and bear up. but believes the same things are at one time big and at another little.^ook X I 604b-606b socrates/glaucon ilevel Ijn and not with the best part. if you like." "Yes. be- 605 b of the soul and nourishes it. to praise and pity him. by making lit strong. "if you consider it in this way." he said. What is by nature best in us. Induces a we shall say the imitative poet pro- ^toms that are very far each private man by making phanremoved from the truth and by gratifying the soul's foolish part. we haven't yet made the greatest accusation against imitation. is that which now gets satisfaction and enjoyment from the poets. we praise as a good poet the man who most puts us in this state." e way to praise?" I said. personal sorrow comes to one of us. Similarly. because it hasn't been adequately educated by argument of habit. except for a certain rare few." he said. singing and beating his breast. "that doesn't seem reasonable. you know that we enjoy it and that we give ourselves over to following the imitation. to resemble." "Listen and consider." 606 a way?" aware that what is then held down by force in our own misfortunes and has hungered for tears and sufficient lament and satisfaction. And thus not admitting him into a city that is we should at last be justified going to be under good laws. but would rather blush." "However. you are aware on the contrary. or. instead of being disgusted. relaxes its guard over this mournful part because it sees another's sufferings. which doesn't distinguish big from little. turns the city over to them and cor^cause he awakens this part Irupts the superior ones. When even the best of us hear Homer or any other of the tragic poets imitating one of the heroes in mourning and making quite an extended speech with lamentation. For the fact that it succeeds in maiming even the decent men." "I do recognize it.

I suppose that only a certain few men are capable of calculating that the enjoyment of other people's sufferings has a necessary effect on one's own. pains. and. "And as for sex." he said." he said. For that 'yelping bitch shrieking at her master. "Then. but that you enjoy very much hearing in comic imitation or in private. you do the same as with things that evoke pity. The argument determined us. you now release. Let d e 607 a b us further say to rusticity.' 'the mob of overwise men holding sway." he said. you then held down by argument." "Very true. have unawares been carried away in your own things so that you become a comic poet. by arranging one's whole life according to this poet. lest is refined thinkers who are really poor'^ and countless others are signs of 290 ] . having made it lusty there. "since we brought up the subject of poetry again. let it be our apology that it was then fitting for us to send it away from the city on account of its character. and you don't hate them as bad. "Well. too. and that in the management and education of human affairs it is worthwhile to take him up for study and for living. and spiritedness. and sets them up as rulers in us when they ought to be ruled so that we may become better and happier instead of worse and more wretched. pleasure and pain will jointly be kings in your city instead of law and that argument which in each instance is best in the opinion of the community. Glaucon. and pleasures in the soul that we say follow all our action. is not easily held down in one's own it believes that deprived of sufferings." I said. And if you admit the sweetened muse in lyrics or epics. For that in you which." I said. "when you meet praisers of Homer who say that this poet educated Greece. wanting to make jokes." "Quite so. For it fosters and waters them when they ought to be dried up. you must love and embrace them as being men who are the best they can be. but you must know that only so much of poetry as is hymns to gods or celebration of good men should be admitted into a city." c "Very true. poetic imitation produces similar results in us.socrates/glaucon the republic it 606 b it gains the pleasure and wouldn't permit itself to be by despising the whole poem.' and 'the it." he said." "I can't say otherwise. that there c it convict us for a certain harshness and an old quarrel between philosophy and poetry. For the pitying part. "Doesn't the same argument also apply to the laughing part? If there are any jokes that you would be ashamed to make yourself. afraid of the reputation of buffoonery. and agree that Homer is the most poetic and first of the tragic poets.' and 'great in the empty eloquence of fools. fed strong on these examples. and for all the desires.

"on the basis of what we have gone through. fallen in love my dear comrade." "I join you in saying that." I said." said. poetry." he there are others greater than those mentioned. so we too due to the inborn love of such poetry we owe to our rearing in these fine regimes—we'll be glad if it turns out that it is best and truest. those who aren't poets but lovers of poetry. But as long as it's not able to make its apology. if poetry directed to pleasure and imitation have any argument to give showing that they should be in a city with good laws. "if "What that is great could come to pass in a short time?" I said. just like the men who have once with someone." he said. and don't believe the love is beneficial." "And. which is childish and belongs to the many.Book X / 606b-608c socrates/glaucon be said that. aware that such poetry mustn't be taken seriously as a serious thing laying hold of truth. and must hold what we have said about poetry. too. Aren't you. And we shall listen benevolently. channed by it." e "We "But would. taking care against falling back again into this love. For surely we shall gain if it should turn out to be not only pleasant but also beneficial. but that the man who hears it must be careful. well chant this argument we are making to ourselves as a countercharm. keep away from it even if they have to do violence to themselves. since we are aware that we ourselves are channed by them. But it isn't holy to betray what seems to be the truth. occasion to speak an argument without meter on its behalf. my friend." he said. [ 291 ] . showing that it's not only pleasant but also beneficial to regimes and human life." "And surely we would also give its protectors. "I join you in saying that. into thinking that it's worthwhile to neglect justice and the rest of virtue. "undeniably gain" if not. let it 607 c template it through the medium of Homer?" it d has "Very "Isn't much it so." "Entirely. for that matter. at all events. All the same. especially when you conthis old opposition. my dear Glaucon. we should be delighted to receive them back from exile. yet." I said." "For the contest is great. are." it just for apology in lyrics or come back in this way—when some other meter?" to made an "Most certainly. "we haven't gone through the greatest rewards and prizes proposed for virtue." — 608 a We b c "You are speaking of an inconceivable greatness. And I suppose anyone else would too. fearing for the regime in himself." he said. when we listen to it. "greater than it seems—this contest that concerns becoming good or bad—so we mustn't be tempted by honor or money or any ruling office or.

" said. "Do e you. "When one of these attaches itself to something. not able to dissolve and destroy it. "But isn't I would gladly hear from you thing that hard." he said. for nearly all things is there an evil and illness naturally connected with each?" "I do." he said. as I say. again. Can you say that?" I "If I too. blight for grain. For surely the good would never destroy anything. however. the whole of the time from childhood to old age would h short when compared with all time. or if this doesn't destroy it. "But what do you mean by this?" "Haven't you perceived. rust for iron and bronze. "that our soul is immortal and is never destroyed?" And he looked me in the face with wonder and said." for me. he 609 a h this? Do you say there is something bad and something good for each thing—for example." "Therefore the evil naturally connected with each thing and its particular badness destroys it." I said. surely there is nothing else that could still corrupt it. for am not to do an injustice." he said. "No. by Zeus. would what is neither bad nor "And what about good. in the end. rot for wood. then won't we know that for a thing that is naturally so there is no destruc"Therefore. if any existing thing that has an evil that makes it bad but is." he said. nor. "And I suppose you can this it's "It is nothing hard. doesn't it make the thing to which it attaches itself bad and." I "You must hear "Just speak." is is the bad. "call something good and something bad?" as I "I do." "Then do you have the same understanding of them "What's that?" do?" "What destroys and corrupts everything and benefits "I do." it." I said.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLIp 608 c d "For surely. "What then? Do you suppose that an immortal thing ought to be serious about so short a time and not about all time?" "I do suppose so. and what saves the good. find we tion?" [ 292 ] . ophthalmia for the eyes. and sickness for the entire body. and. wholly dissolve and destroy it?" "Undeniably." "How could they?" he said. I haven't." he said." "Rather." said. it's nothing at all. said.

whatever it may be—whether it is their oldness. be destroyed by the badness of foods. then." t^ "What you of say. I & "But it is. brought to the point t of death. cowardice. rottenness." "Does any one of them dissolve and destroy it? And reflect. we shall say that due to [ was destroyed by its own vice. we would not admit that one thing is destroyed by the evil of another. when they are present in it. as long as it's unrefuted. But we shall never admit that the body. on the contrary. . "It is unreasonable. or by another illness. "Well then. Isn't that so?" k |. when he is caught doing injustice.mpok X / 608c-610b glaucon/sockates t ' "That's likely." "Come." "That's reasonable. by being present and attaching themselves. "all the things we were just going through—injustice. "that we don't suppose a body should e f . which is disease. : I badness never admit that a soul is destroyed by an alien evil that does not bring with it the specific badness of a soul—that is. and lack of learning. or anything else. which attaches itself to them and is present in them. But if the badness of the foods themselves introduces the badness of body into the body. unreasonable. and consider soul in the . "that a thing be [destroyed by a badness that is alien and not by one that is its own. let's never assert that by fever. which is another thing." he said. which is disease. Yes. or. Do injustice and the rest of vice. But do it this way: just as jhe badness of body." he said. before someone proves that due to "Well. again. they separate it from the body?" "That's not at all the way it is. if the alien evil does not them it 610 a . 609 b "What then?" bad?" "Very I said. melts and destroys a body and I Ibrings it to the point where it is not even a body. by slaughter—even if someone cuts the whole body up into the smallest pieces— a soul is ever closer to being destroyed as a result of these things. "Reflect." I % i. Glaucon. or." he said. which is one thing. body doesn't introduce badness of soul into a soul. and they ^ c d tfinally come to the point where they are not. if "according to the same argument." I said." I he said. "is quite right. similarly all the things tof which we were just speaking are corrupted by their own specific vice. is corrupted by the badness of food. is then destroyed due g|o the injustice. corrupt and wither it until. which is a badness of soul. either let's refute what we are saying and show that it's not fine." said. so f rthat we won't be deceived into supposing that the unjust and foolish IJiuman being." said." . "Doesn't the soul have something that makes rjt f> ? much so/' he said. we would b [ 293 i . same way. licentiousness. introduce the evil that is naturally connected with the body. then.

"let this be so. For if any of the immortal things should become more numerous. but makes its possessor very much alive and. dissimilarity. as it seems. So far surely. if it is al- ways. as things now stand. show that when men become unjust due to death. hardly. you know that they would come from the mortal. if it can. "For surely." "if someone dares to come to close quarters with the argument and say that the dying man becomes worse and unjuster not to be compelled to agree that souls are immortal. "at least as it's is likely. nor again more numerous. and that. sleepless. surely insist that. injustice." "That is necessary. like it kills other men. all to the contrary. that it be immortal. since by its nature it it man who those who get it die Irom —those who those unjust at who get less." said. him who has says this says the truth. But when an ahen vice comes to be in something else and its own peculiar vice does not come to be in it. For it would be a But I suppose rather that it will look. let's not permit anyone to these sufferings of the assert that a soul or anything else is destroyed." "Yes. "Well." he said. you recognize that there would always be the same souls. or assigned to the destruction of something else will hardly destroy a anything else except that to which it is assigned. For surely they could not become fewer if none is destroyed. and everything would end up by being immortal." I said. injustice is even as disease is." leisurely fashion. in addition to alive." "What you say "But. in more men who. will from evils. And if it is. "for a thing to be eternal that is both com- 294 ] ." its "Therefore. itself" "How do you mean?" he "It's not easy." he said. we shall it.socrates/glaucon the REPUBLJp 610 b c body the sou] itself becomes unjuster and unholier. "no one will ever are dying their souls "And. "let's not its suppose this—for the argument won't pertruest nature is b mit it—nor that soul by variety. whenever kill its own badness and evil own evil are not sufficient to and destroy a soul. do indeed die from the hands of other men who administer the penalty." "On the contrary." he rible thing if relief it said." he said. does its camp lie from fatality. if the d fatal to kills. such that it is full of much and quarrel with said." I its said." I said." "What you say is fine." just so as I said. more quickly They would be unlike the get most." I is true. since 611 a own or an alien—it's not destroyed by a single evil— either plainly necessary that it be always and. then. but "By Zeus. "then injustice won't look like such a very ter- e be fatal to the one who gets it. an soul.

we see the soul in such will find it And one far fairer d a condition because of countless evils." I said. at last. and what it would become like if it were to give itself entirely to this longing and were brought by this impulse out of the deep ocean in which it now is. that soul is immortal both the recent argument and the others would compel us to accept." he said. Just as those who catch sight of the sea Glaucus^ would no longei.easily see his original nature because some of the old parts of his body have been broken off and the others have been ground down and thoroughly maimed by the waves at the same time as other things have grown on him—shells." "Well then. "haven't we b c [ 295 ] ." "That's entirely certain.Book X / 610b-612c socrates/glaucon posed out of many things and whose composition is' not of the finest. earthy. unobjectionable. too. one elsewhere. have grown around it in a wild. And then one would see its true nature—whether it is many-formed or single-formed. and that the soul must do the just things. and rocks—so that he resembles any beast rather than what he was by nature. Glaucon. Hades' cap. However that is based only on the condition in which we saw it. Glaucon. so. But it must be seen such as it is in truth. But. as the soul now looked to us."^^ "What you say is very true. 611 b c and discern justice and injustice^ and everything we have now gone through more distinctly. "To its love of wisdom. "isn't it now. as we now see it. not maimed by community with body and other evils. and rocky profusion as a result of those feasts that are called happy. in addition. as I suppose. both cleared away the other parts of the criticism and also not brought in the wages and reputations connected with justice as you said Hesiod and Homer do? But we found that justice by itself is best for soul itself. seaweed. whether it has Gyges' ring or not. also to give back to justice and the rest of virtue the wages—in their quantity and in their quality—that they procure for "In the argument. we have fairly gone through its affections and forms in its human life. Now we were telling the truth about it as it looks at present. or in what way it is and how." he said." I e 612 a said. But now. and recognize what it lays hold of and with what sort of things it longs to keep company on the grounds that it is akin to the divine and immortal and what is always. But what it is like when it has become pure must be examined sufficiently by calculation. and the rocks and shells were hammered off—those which. in addition to such a ring. at least it's not likely. and. because it feasts on earth." "No." must look "Where?" he said. "Then.

" "And. "Then. so that justice may also carry off the prizes that gains e from seeming and bestows on its possessors. and I in fact among human ask us to agree that has among gods and it does enjoy such a it reputation. diseases." said. what each of the two men "we shall give that back. likens himself. mustn't of these things?" we think the opposite "Very much so. will you give back to ment?" me what you borrowed in the argu- "What "I in particular?" gave you the just man's seeming to be unjust and the unjust man just. Or don't you remember?" should indeed be doing an injustice." he said." I said. "I "Well. to a god. all the same. "is only just. "that such a man isn't neglected by his like." he said." quite likely." have been judged. or it him will must be assumed in the case of the just man that." into poverty. practicing virtue." just [ 296 ] . as we also agreed at the beginning?" That 613 a s so. the one would be dear to the gods and the other hateful. it had to be granted for the argument's sake so that justice itself could be judged as compared with d injustice itself. "won't you first give this back: that it doesn't is?" escape the notice of gods. "And won't we agree that everything that comes to the man dear to the gods— insofar as it comes from gods— is the best possible. "since they behalf I ask back again the reputation beings." "Then. even if it weren't possible for this to escape gods and human beings. both and when he is dead?" while the 612 c the soul from still human being is alive "That's entirely certain. falls certainly." "And if they don't escape notice. except for any necessary evil that was due to him for former mistakes?" "Most "Thus. it gods at least will never neglect the man who is eagerly willing to beis come i> just and." he said. in the case of the unjust man. at "Yes. for end in some good. surely. least. on justice's it "If I didn't. then." he said. if he any other of the things that seem bad. since it has made clear that it bestows the good things that come from being and does not deceive those who really take possession of it." "Then such would be some of the prizes from gods to the man. For." "What you ask. You both asked for it. either in life or even in death.socrates/glaucon THEREPUBLIC human beings and gods." he I said. so far as possible for a human "It's being.

613 b "And what does he get from human beings?" I said. speaking truly. And. and on the tenth day. they get older. then. wages. I now say about these men. he was picked up in a good state of preservation. But. d when want. at least." I said. if that which is must be asserted. then. in adsaid. as so.Book X "In I 612c-614b glaucon/socbates my opinion. come back to life." "Very much he said. Doesn't it also for the most part turn out that way with the just? Toward the end of every action." things that justice itself procured." "Will you. coming to the just man "such would be the prizes. "quite fair 614 a dition to those good are. As for being whipped and the things that you. and gifts while alive from gods and human beings. are caught at the end of the race and ridiculed. and life they get a good reputation and bear off the prizes from human beings. however. and marry wherever they wish and give in marriage to whomever they And everything you said about the unjust. were picked up. he came back to life. about the unjust. and when they get old. even if they get away unnoticed when they are young. already decayed. it made a journey in [ 297 ] . "For what you say just. again." he said." tell. "they are measure of what the argument owed him." "Well. and. and are crowned. And these things should be heard so that in hearing them each of these men will have gotten back said." "I will not. with their ears on their shoulders." said. he told what he saw in the the full "Do b other world." nothing in multitude or magnitude compared to those that await each when dead. they are insulted in their wretchedness by foreigners and townsmen." I I say. take the prizes.^2 j-^jj off uncrowned? But those who are truly runners come to the end. "Or. association. said are rustic—that they will be racked and burned—suppose that you have also heard from me that they suffer all e these things. I shall say that most of them. as he was lying on the pyre. tell you a story of Alcinous." "And they "Well. isn't it this way? Don't the clever unjust men do exactly as do all those in a race who run well from the lower end of the course but not from the upper?ii ^t tjjg start they leap sharply c away but end up by becoming ridiculous and. when the corpses. by race a Pamphylian.13 Once upon a time he died in war. Er. stand for self said my I saying about them what you yourit's about the unjust? For shall say that precisely the just. Having been brought home." he said. son of Armenius. "since there aren't many other things that would be more pleasant to hear." I he and sure ones. He said that when his soul departed." "Quite so. see if you'll stand for is it. who rule in their city if they wish ruling offices. "but rather of a strong man. he was about to be buried on the twelfth day.

And they told their stories to one another. the ones lamenting and crying. they had paid the penalty for every one in turn. through the heaven. again two in the heaven. above and opposite the others. pure from heaven. and they attached signs of the judgments in front of them. Glaucon. c they had done good deeds and had proved just and holy. told the just to continue their journey to the right and upward. And about those who were only just born and lived a short time. in their turn. they received for each of these things tenfold sufferings. And he told of still greater wages for impiety and piety toward gods and parents and for murder. He saw there. in this way they could pay off the penalty — Thus. if some men were causes of the death of many. 'Where is Ardiaeus the Great?' This Ardiaeus [ 298 ] . and. As to the other two openings. in the same measure did they receive reward. and down from the other came other souls. remembering how much and what sort of things they had suffered and seen in the journey under the earth—the to those h journey lasts a thousand years and those from heaven. and again. taking this as the length of human life. and they came to a certain demonic place. and those from heaven about the things that had happened tl5 a from the earth. That is. Between them sat d judges who. And when he himself came forward e become a messenger to human beings of the and they told him to listen and to look at everything in the place. and set up camp there. if for the injustice ten times over. he said. as to a public festival. The unjust they told to continue their journey to the left and down. All those who were acquaintances greeted one another. or were involved in any other wrongdoing. ten times over for each. Now to go through the many things would take a long time. was this. that came out of the earth inquired of the others about the things in the other place. And the souls that were ever arriving looked as though they had come from a long journey: and they went away with delight to the meadow. where there were two openings in the earth next to one another.SOCRATES THEREPUBLlQ the 614 c company of many. told of the inconceivable beauty of the experiences and the sights there. either by betraying cities or armies and had reduced men to slavery. For all the unjust deeds they had done anyone and all the men to whom they had done injustice. when they had passed judgment. came up from one of them. But the sum. for example. and the souls they said that he had to things there. he said other things not worth mentioning. the souls going away when judgment had been passed on them. souls out of the earth. full of dirt and dust. and they had behind them signs of everything they had done. at one of the openings of both heaven and earth. For he said he was there when one man was asked by another. they were punished for each injustice once every hundred years.

and four others. and there is a third one like these and a fourth. as was said. for this light is that which binds heaven. "When each group had spent seven days in the plain. Its stem and hook are of adamant. who took hold of some and led them away. from what he said. most of all resembling the rainbow but brighter and purer. but who bound Ardiaeus and others hands. carding them like wool on thorns. completely scooped out. e 616 a b c undergirders of triremes. lay another like it. like the asked responded. while from the back they whorl is a mixture of this like this: its d e I 299 ] . The nature of the whorl is shape is like those we have here. the bounties were the antistrophes of these.' he was one of the terrible sights we saw. They supposed they were ready to go up. it must be conceived as if in one great hollow whorl. it roared when one of those whose badness is incurable or who had not paid a sufficient penalty attempted to go up. From the extremities stretched the spindle of Necessity. of course. 'fierce men. killed his old father and elder brother and done many other unholy deeds.' They had experienced many fears of all kinds. They dragged them along the wayside. he had. by which all the revolutions are turned. threw them down and stripped off their skin. like a column. and. standing by and observing the sound. stretched from above through all of heaven and earth. Just about all of them were tyrants. and head. and its and other kinds. at the middle of the light. And there. and when it was silent. but more extreme than any was the fear that each man experienced lest the sound come as he went up. For there are eight whorls in all. 'For this too. but. he said.' he said. feet. but there were also some private men. will he come asserted. on the eighth they were made to depart from there and continue their journey. and they indicated to those who came by for what reason this was done and that these men would be led away and thrown into Tartarus.Book X I 614c-616e socrates thousand years before that time. In four days they arrived at a place from which they could see a straight light. but smaller." Now Er said that the just a had been tyrant in a certain city of Pamphylia 615 c d man Nor here. looking fiery through and through. of those who had committed great faults. lying in one another with their rims showing as circles from above. They came to it after having moved forward a day's journey. we suddenly saw him and others. each went up with the greatest delight. There were men at that place. but the mouth did not admit thern. they saw the extremities of its bonds stretched from heaven. on the other hand. thus holding the entire revolution together. When we were near the mouth about to go up and had suffered everything else. Such then were the penalties and punishments. 'He hasn't come. fitting into each other as bowls fit into each other.

from all eight is produced the accord of a single harmony. third. but Lachesis puts one hand to one and the other hand to the other. and Atropos*^ clad in white with wreaths on their heads. "Now. second. eighth. as — of another death bringing cycle for the mortal race. After this. spindle is b c d and together with one another are the seventh.' "When he had said this. yellower than these others. Souls that live a day. he cast the lots among them all. e A demon gets the will not first lot select you. that of the eighth gets its color from the seventh's shining on it. each will have more or less of her. which is driven right through the middle of the eighth. uttering a single sound. that of the eighth. fourth. that of the fourth. one note. 'This is the speech of Necessity's maiden daughter. A certain spokesman first marshaled them at regular distances from each other. Let him who make Virtue first choice of a life to which he will be bound by without a master. sixth. ceasing from time to time. and Atropos of what is going to be. the second. Lachesis. is perched a Siren. second fourth is reddish. accompanying its revolution. And the spindle turned in the lap of Necessity. that of the second and the fifth are like each other. Fates—Lachesis. brightest.*^ Now the circle formed by the lip of the first and outermost whorl is the broadest. in turn. when they arrived.third. seventh. To the man who picked it up it was plain what number he had drawn. fourth. the ' 17 a and the sixth is second in whiteness. on each of its circles. sixth and fifth. this is the beginning swiftness. that of the seventh. The blame belongs to him who chooses. he took lots and patterns of lives from Lachesis' lap. then. Third in it looked to them. and Atropos with her left hand does the same to the inner ones. the fourth circled about. as he honors or dishonors her. he set the patterns of the lives on the [ 300 ] . the third has the whitest color. and that of the second. each on a throne. but within the revolving whole the seven inner circles revolve gently in the opposite direction from the whole. Daughters of Necessity. and each picked up the one that fell next to him—except for Er who wasn't permitted to do so. the eighth goes most quickly.THE REPUBLIC 16 e form one continuous whorl around the stem. Clotho. they had to go straight to Lachesis. fifth. that of the fifth. And Clotho puts her right hand to the outer revolution of the spindle and joins in turning it. that of the sixth. of them. The whole turned in a circle with the same motion. and went up to a high platfoiin and said. that of the. blameless. the third. each in turn. Three others are seated round about at equal distances. Above. they sing to the Sirens' harmony. And the lip of the largest whorl is multicolored. that of the seventh. Clotho of what is. and fifth. Lachesis of what has been. but you will choose a demon. god is the is necessity.

others for their birth and the virtues of their ancestors—and there were some for men without repute in these things. facility and difBculty in learning. and also with the states intermediate to these. He will let everything else go. and all such things that are connected with a soul by nature or are acquired. is the whole risk for a human seems. From all this he will be able to draw a conclusion and choose—in looking off toward the nature of the soul—between the worse and the better life. and better the one that leads it to becoming juster. Thus he may know the effects. For in this way a human being becomes happiest. as dear Glaucon. some lasting to the end. and himself undergo still greater suffering. He will take into account all the things we have just mentioned and how in combination and separately they affect the virtue of a life. And there were lives of men of repute—some for their forms and beauty and for strength in general as well as capacity in contests. and the same was the case for women. lives of all animals. strength and weakness. and. An ordering of the soul was not in them. private station and ruling office. all the varieties of hurrian lives. and so everywhere and always to choose the better from among those that are possible. it "Now my c knowledge to distinguish the good and the bad life. so far as is possible.Book X I 616e-619b socrates ground before them. above all see to it that he is a seeker and student of that study by which he might be able to learn and find out who will give here. due to the necessity that a soul become different according to the life it chooses. and the effects of any particular mixture with one another of good and bad birth. too. in particular. For we have seen that this is the most important choice for him in life and death. to the neglect of other studies. but rather he will know how always to choose the life between such extremes and flee the excesses in either direction in this life. of beauty mixed with poverty or wealth and accompanied by this or that habit of soul. There were tyrannies among them. ^^^ " b being. ending both in poverty and exile and in beggary. There were all sorts. "And the messenger from that place then also reported that the spokesman said the following: 'Even for the man who comes forward last. and rush into tyrannies and other such deeds by which he would work many irreparable evils. there were far more than there were souls present. But all other things were. a life to content him the capacity and the him d e 619 a b [ 301 ] . bad and good. And on this account each of us must. He must go to Hades adamantly holding to this opinion so that he won't be daunted by wealth and such evils there. if he chooses intelligently and lives earnestly. others ruined midway. and in all of the next life. calling worse the one that leads it toward becoming more unjust. mixed with each other and with wealth and poverty and with sickness and health.

oth musical animals did the same thing. it may be said. he beat his breast and lamentecj . drawn the first lot came forward and immediately chose the gre^*. and anything r^^-L than himself. For the most part the choice was made according to the haKnation of their former life. On just ty. Let not the one who is not be careless ^^ last be disheartened. it's likely. on o what is reported from there. tyranny. However. and it escaped his notice that eating . dije t his death at their hands. it was the soul of Ajax.^CRATES THEREPUBtj is 19 b laid up. that he will not only be hanvN here but also that he will journey from this world to the other back again not by the underground. And far out among the last he saw \}. h^v . [ 302 ] . choice. to see. generated j^^ woman. one. son of Panopeus. "He said that this several souls chose a life. and. whe^ comes to the life here. he wasn't willing to be born. laughable. He saw Thamyras' soul choosing the life of a nightingale. Let che one his choice. without philosophy. through the heavens. weren't in a rush to make their choices. and won(Jgj. out of hatred for womankind. account. For he (Jjj f blame himself for the evils but chance. not a bad one. And. And after him was the soul of Agamemnon.r.~ own children and other evils were fated to be a part of that life. not the least those who were caught in such circumstances number came from heaven i cause they were unpracticed in labors. she saw \u great honors of an athletic man and couldn't pass them by but tooV them. After this soul he saw that of Epeius. He said he saw a soul that once belong^j Orpheus choosing a life of a swan. participating in virt^^ . demons. it too hated v mankind as a result of its sufferings and therefore changed to the Ijfg an eagle. rough road but by the smootv. Wu he considered it at his leisure. because they themselves had labored and had see^ labors of others. if a man. The soul that got the twentieth 1 chose the life of a lion. He was one of those who had come from heaven. there was an exchange evils and goods for most of the souls. remembering the judgment of ^v arms. '^ lived in an orderly regime in his former life. ^ d habit. always philosophizes in a healthy way and 4. But most of those who q„ from the earth. not abiding by the spokesman's forewarning. going jj^.1 1 ~ th e lot for his choice does not fall out among the last. and due to the chance of the lot. the nature of an artisan woman.. due to folly and gluttony.' who begins * "He said that when the spokesman had said this the man who v. chose without having ^ sidered everything adequately. ^^^ shunned becoming a human being.. a v^j he also saw a swan changing to the choice of a human life. son of Telamon. Atalanta's soul had drawn one of the middle lots. basis of ^^ 4-1^ 20 a b c was a sight surely worth seeing: how each of For it was pitiable.

The nature of the whorl is shape is like those we have here. and there is a third one like these and a fourth. he had. carding them like wool on thorns.' he asserted. a mixture of this its the revolutions are turned. but the mouth did not admit them. fitting into each other as bowls fit into each other. but more extreme than any was the fear that each man experienced lest the sound come as he went up. it must be conceived as if in one great hollow whorl. but. and they indicated to those who came by for what reason this was done and that these men would be led away and thrown into Tartarus. and when it was silent. When we were near the mouth about to go up and had suffered everything else. and four others. for this light is that which binds heaven.Book X/ 614c-616e socrates had been tyrant in a certain city of Pamphylia just a thousand years 615 c before that time. up. Such then were the penalties and punishments. Its stem and is by which hook are of adamant. was one of the terrible sights we saw. threw them down and stripped off their skin. lying in one another with their rims showing as circles from above. but there were also some private men. but who bound Ardiaeus and others hands. and head. they saw the extremities of its bonds stretched from heaven. we suddenly saw him and others. From whorl the extremities stretched the spindle of Necessity. And middle of the light. it roared when one of those whose badness is incurable or who had not paid a sufficient penalty attempted to go were men at that place. They dragged them along the wayside. Nor will he come here. of those who had committed great faults. and all its and other kinds.^* Now Er said that the d man asked responded. as was said. They supposed they were ready to go up.' They had experienced many fears of all kinds. standing by and observing the sound. 'For this too.' he said. on the other hand. feet. "When each group had spent seven days in the plain. killed his old father and elder brother and done many other unholy deeds. 'He hasn't come. the bounties were the antistrophes of these. who took hold of some and led them away. There 616 a b They came having moved forward a day's journey. at the c undergirders of triremes. looking fiery through and through. most of all resembling the rainbow but brighter and purer. lay another like it. of course. he said. like the to it after there. on the eighth they were made to depart from there and continue their journey. Just about all of them were e tyrants. stretched from above through all of heaven and earth. from what he said. completely scooped out. thus holding the entire revolution together. but smaller. while from the back they like this: d e [ 299 ] . like a column. and. For there are eight whorls in all. each went up with the greatest delight. In four days they arrived at a place from which they could see a straight light. 'fierce men.

the third. but make the first choice of a blameless. third. but within the revolving whole the seven inner circles revolve gently in the opposite spindle b c most quickly. in turn. Third in swiftness. uttering a single sound. Clotho. After this. e A demon will not you will choose a demon. each on a throne.third. on each of its circles. direction from the whole. is perched a Siren. that of the seventh. of them.^^ Now the circle formed by the lip of the first and outermost whorl is the broadest. each will have more or less of her. seventh. as he honors or dishonors her. which is driven right through the middle of the eighth. that of the eighth gets its color from the seventh's shining on it. he set the patterns of the lives on the [ . "Now. second. he cast the lots among them all. fourth.)CRATEs THEREPUBLIG form one continuous whorl around the stem. And the spindle turned in the lap of Necessity. the third has the whitest color.300 ] . when they arrived. one note. and Atropos of what is going to be. and each picked up the one that fell next to him— except for Er who wasn't permitted to do so. sixth. that of the fourth. The blame belongs to him who chooses. that of the seventh. from all eight is produced the accord of a single harmony. ceasing from time to time. the eighth goes And d Clotho puts her right hand to thie outer revolution of the spindle and joins in turning it. brightest. as it looked to them. eighth. Souls that live a day. he took lots and patterns of lives from Lachesis' lap. fourth. The whole turned in a circle with the same motion. they sing to the Sirens' harmony. and fifth. fifth. and Atropos^^—clad in white with wreaths on their heads. Three others are seated round about at equal distances. then. accompanying its revolution. Let him who gets the first lot life to which he will be bound by necessity. the 16 e 17 a fourth is is reddish. and went up to a high platform and said. Daughters of Necessity. and Atropos with her left hand does the same to the inner ones. god is select you. Lachesis of what has been.' "When he had said this. Lachesis. A certain spokesman first marshaled them at regular distances from each other. that of the fifth. To the man who picked it up it was plain what number he had drawn. the fourth circled about. they had to go straight to Lachesis. yellower than these others. Virtue is without a master. that of the eighth. Clotho of what is. but Lachesis puts one hand to one and the other hand to the other. and that of the second. the second. and the sixth is second in whiteness. each in turn. that of the sixth. Above. that of the second and the fifth are like each other. that of the. Fates—Lachesis. this is the beginning of another death bringing cycle for the mortal race. second and together with one another are the seventh. 'This is the speech of Necessity's maiden daughter. sixth and fifth. And the lip of the largest whorl is multicolored.

there were far more than there were souls present. of beauty mixed with poverty or wealth and accompanied by this or that habit of soul. and rush into tyrannies and other such deeds by which he would work many irreparable evils. due to the necessity that a soul become different according to the life it chooses. "And the messenger from that place then also reported that the spokesman said the following: 'Even for the man who comes forward last. others ruined midway. and the effects of any particular mixture with one another of good and bad birth. But all other things were. And there were lives of men of repute—some for their forms and beauty and for strength in general as well as capacity in contests. just He will take into account all the things we have mentioned and how in combination and separately they affect the d virtue of a life. and better the one that leads it to becoming juster. and the same was the case for women. above all see to it that he is a seeker and student of that study by which he might be able to learn and find out who will give here. in particular. facility and difficulty in learning. From all this he will be able to draw a conclusion and choose—in looking off toward the nature of the soul—between the worse and the better life. but rather he will know how always to choose the life between such extremes and flee the excesses in either direction in this life. calling worse the one that leads it toward becoming more unjust. and so everywhere and always to choose the better from among those that are possible. For in this way a human being becomes happiest.Book X I 616e-619b socrates ground before them. lives of all animals. others for their birth and the virtues of their ancestors— and there were some for men without repute in these things. and all such things that are connected with a soul by nature or are acquired. a life to content him e 619 a b [ 301 ] . as dear Glaucon. and. 618 a b being. and also with the states intermediate to these. some lasting to the end. There were all sorts. He will let everything else go. And on this account each of us must. and in all of the next life. An ordering of the soul was not in them. so far as is possible. bad and good. to the neglect of other studies. Thus he may know the effects. He must go to Hades adamantly holding to this opinion so that he won't be daunted by wealth and such evils there. mixed with each other and with wealth and poverty and with sickness and health. all the varieties of human lives. strength and weakness. it "Now my c him the capacity and the knowledge to distinguish the good and the bad life. private station and ruling office. and himself undergo still greater suffering. is the whole risk for a human seems. ending both in poverty and exile and in beggary. There were tyrannies among them. too. if he chooses intelligently and lives earnestly. For we have seen that this is the most important choice for him in life and death.

not abiding by the spokesman's forewarning. who shunned becoming a human being. And after him was the soul of Agamemnon. For it was pitiable. He saw Thamyras' soul choosing the life of a nightingale. 620 a b c was a sight surely worth seeing: how each of the several souls chose a life. For he didn't blame himself for the evils but chance. However.SOCRATES THEREPUBLIC his choice. rough road but by the smooth if account. Let not the 619 b c bad one. going into the nature of an artisan woman. through the heavens. weren't in a rush to make their choices. because they were unpracticed in labors.' "He said that when the spokesman had said this the man who had drawn the first lot came forward and immediately chose the greatest tyranny. But most of those who came from the earth. and wonderful to see. demons. Atalanta's soul had drawn one of the middle lots. son of Telamon. it was the soul of Ajax. that he will not only be happy here but also that he will journey from this world to the other and back again not by the underground. On just this e man. he wasn't willing to be bom. chose without having considered everything adequately. it may be said. always philosophizes in a healthy way and the lot for his choice does not fall out among the last. other musical animals did the same thing. and. and it escaped his notice that eating his own children and other evils were fated to be a part of that life. After this soul he saw that of Epeius. laughable. out of hatred for womankind. And far out among the last he saw the "He said that this [ 302 ] . participating in virtue by d habit. when he comes to the life here. there evils and goods for most of the souls. not a lived in an orderly regime in his former life. son of Panopeus. and anything rather than himself He was one of those who had come from heaven. generated in a woman. He said he saw a soul that once belonged to Orpheus choosing a life of a swan. And he also saw a swan changing to the choice of a human life. and due to the chance of the lot. without philosophy. due to his death at their hands. And. having is laid up. it's likely. was an exchange a of one. For the most part the choice was made according to the habituation of their former life. not the least number of those who were caught in such circumstances came from heaven. it too hated humankind as a result of its sufferings and therefore changed to the life of an eagle. remembering the judgment of the arms. due to folly and gluttony. When he considered it at his leisure. she saw the great honors of an athletic man and couldn't pass them by but took them. The soul that got the twentieth lot chose the life of a lion. on the basis of what is reported from there. because they themselves had labored and had seen the labors of others. Let die one who begins not be careless about one who is last be disheartened. he beat his breast and lamented the choice.

" And by 620 c chance Odysseus' soul had drawn the last lot of all and went to choose. he did not know. It said when it saw this life that it would have done the same even if it had drawn the first lot. similarly some went into human lives and into one another the unjust changing into savage ones. a tale was saved and not lost. without turning around. After touching her. Now it was a necessity for all to drink a certain measure of the water. when the others had also come barren of trees and all that naturally grows on earth. it went around for a long time looking for the life of a private man who minds his own business. they went under Necessity's throne. and with effort it found one lying somewhere^ neglected by the others. all of a sudden.^* And from there. Then they made their camp. And so here and in the thousand year journey that we have described we shall fare well. And. for evening was coming on. shooting like stars. the d — just into tame ones. each in a different way. and there were all kinds of mixtures. in the same order as the lots they had drawn. if we were persuaded by it. and we shall make a good crossing of the river of Lethe and not defile our soul. both while we remain here and when we reap the everything.20 But he himself was prevented from drinking the water. in what way and how he came into his body. Glaucon. and was delighted to choose it. up to their birth. having come "When e 621 a out through way through. but those who were not saved by prudence drank more than the measure. he next led it to the spinning of Atropos. from memory of its former labors it had recovered from love of honor. But if we are persuaded by me. but. "And thus. ^^ For it was it. each forgot And when they had gone to sleep and it was midnight. came thunder and an earthquake. he recovered his sight and saw that it was morning and he was lying on the pyre. As he drank. we shall always keep to the upper road and practice justice with prudence in every way so that we shall be friends to ourselves and the gods. And from the other beasts. However. The demon first led the soul to Clotho—under her hand as it turned the whirling spindle—thus ratifying the fate it had drawn and chosen. And she sent with each the demon he had chosen as a guardian of the life and a fulfiller of what was chosen. clothing itself as an ape. and they were suddenly carried from there. they went forward to Lachesis. all made their through terrible stifling heat to the plain of Lethe. holding that soul is immortal and capable of bearing all evils and all goods. there b c rewards for it like the victors who go about gathering in the prizes. all the souls had chosen lives.2i ^nd it could save us. "22 d r 303 ] . by the river of Carelessness whose water no vessel can contain.Book X / 619b-621d socbates soul of the buffoon Thersites. thus making the threads irreversible.




Soc- himself before the city. Philosophy required a defense if it was to be admitted into civil society. [ 307 ] . make civil society possible. That theme is the relationship of the philosopher to the political community. From the city's point of view. These charges do not relate simply to the man Socrates who happens to be a philosopher but are meant to be a condemnation of the philosophic acnot on behalf simply of the city of Athens. Socrates was accused of doing unjust things—of not believing in the gods which the city believed in and of corrupting the youth. for only in the Republic does he give an adequate treatment of the theme which was forced on him by Athens' accusation against him. there seems to be something about the thought and way of life of the philosopher which calls into question the city's gods. Socrates is unjust not only because he breaks Athens' laws but also because he apparently does not accept those fundamental beliefs which protectors of its laws. At the time of Socrates' trial. or rather no citizen at all. but on behalf of the political community as such.INTERPRETIVE ESSAY The Republic is the true Apology of Socrates. The philosopher had to defend or the city would have been legitimated in discouraging philosophy's entrance into it as vigorously as possible. philosophy was new to the cities. Such a man's presence in the city and his association with the most promising young men make him a subversive. and it could easily have been crushed. who are the tivity itself— and and which hence makes him a bad citizen.

the laws of which now seem to be mere conventions with no natural status. to care city sees only the apparent atheism of the philosopher and his on the young. Socrates—who had argued in the men. friendly is a leisurely discussion among cultivated. He depicts Socrates as a has investigated the things in the air and under the earth stronger. The poet. Only the Republic makes the attempt to define justice and elaborate the science which can give ground to such a definition. is He seems to agree that it somewhat questionable whether a city which wants its sons for it should permit them to consort with philosophers. since it is a description of Socaudience composed of generally rates' life directed to a large. political things. His way of life turns him from the duties of citizenship. The Republic. then. and Socrates' justice is surely not that of a law-abiding man. and its life was at stake. in a more profound way. or even harmless. joins the city in its condemnation of philosophy as an enemy of political man." man "who and who is makes the weaker argument The meaning of this charge that the philosopher studies nature. Socrates must show. The philosophers are alienated from the human things. [ 308 ] . on the other hand. the philosopher's understanding of the causes of all things makes it impossible for him to grasp man on his own level. the charge of injustice. Socrates indicates this by the fact that he is at pains in the Apology to distinguish himself from other philosophers. What is more.THE REPUBLIC rates' trial was the crisis of philosophy. The Apology. The philosopher's contemplation of the heavens dissolves the perspective of the city. which only poetry can adequately reproduce. and there he finds a true account of the celestial phenomena differing widely from that given in the religious myths. the poet Aristophanes. The Apology does not adequately accomplish this task. and what he learns teaches him to despise the human. the political to the subpolitical. in which Socrates defends himself against makes no attempt to define justice: his accusers mean by an unjust man one who breaks the laws. man is reduced to nonman. And contrary to what modem men might be inclined to believe. particularly the heavens. In it. that the philosopher is just and that it is he. he learns of a purely mechanical explanation of Zeus' thunderbolt. shows' effect The why the philosopher all is subversive. it is not simply clear that philosophy is salutary. not the poet. who ridiculed Socrates in the Clouds and paved the way for his later official accusation. for example. who is the one able to treat of political things responsibly. for the city. hostile ignorant jurors sworn to uphold the defective laws of Athens. This is not easy to do since it would appear that the philosopher calls into question the natural character of justice as a virtue and that his science of being has no special place for man in it.

I think. . the cities . Socrates. nor. in leading them to a justice which is not Athenian. which are superior to the gods. philosophy. . That teaching culminates in the famous declaration that "unless philosophers rule as kings. but is rather human. and the philosopher is its greatest benefactor. . the Republic tacitly admits the truth of the charges made against Socrates: he is not orthodox in his beliefs about the gods and sets up new beings. Socrates was accused and why there Not only does he tell us about the good regime. however. [ 309 ] . Socrates denies that he is unjust because of this. for human kind. Philosophy may very well be harmful to real very unlikely that the regime at which it aims can come into being. and he teaches young men to despise Athens because he teaches them to love a regime in which philosophers are kings. likely to be misled by this apparent Socratic optimism concerning the best case—the regime where philosophers rule. is a perfect harmony between philosophy and the has reformed philosophy so that it is most needful for the city. In fact. but we see his effect on the young men he was said to have corrupted. or those now called kings and chiefs genthere is no rest from ills for uinely and adequately philosophize . that it covers a host of tensions which come to light in the less than perfect cases. seems to be conspiratorial. Socrates and sonow the one thing science paradox than a solution. although they are perhaps harder for The Republic shows us why was good reason to accuse him. If philosophers are the natural rulers. but there must be a revolution in men's understanding of justice for just deeds to be recognized as such. Socrates may well have reformed philosophy so that it was no longer indifferent to politics.Interpretive Essay Apology that his only knowledge was ignorance and who had thus apparently admitted his incompetence in political things—presents a teaching about the nature of things political. shows the way to the truth about political things and develops the extremely complex relationship of that truth to civil society. precisely because it is rational. . and he must behave prudently: he undermines the attachment to the regime and laws of the city. the philosophers he trains will be men who both know the nature of things in the air and below the earth and are able to speak with consummate skill. but it was certainly no less subversive of all existing regimes than was the older philosophy. the ideas. rather than being simply useless." This means that there city. We are. . his presence is problematic. and it is the good life. These questions are most relevant to modern man. . Careful reading will reveal that this alleged harmony is more of a ciety. or even Greek. but he is the salvation of all those in it who wish to live regimes. they are the rivals of all the actual rulers. In all imperfect regimes. .

other activities might be more to his taste. they are salutary for society. Apparently he does not wish to do so. The difference between the Republic and the Apology is that the threat of compulsion used in the Republic is only playful while that of the Athenian law court in the Apology is in deadly earnest. Socrates knew that his interests were not. and he would like to hurry to them. We frequently do not see this and assume that his execution was a result of the blind prejudices of the past. He will only give as much of himself as is required to regain his freedom. We will learn that the establishment of political science cannot be carried out without sacrifice of the dearest convictions and interests of most men.THE REPUBLIC him to relevant to understand than for men of any previous generation. we do is not see the The Republic the best an- The proper starting point for the study of So- the nonphilosophic orientation of the city within which philosophy must take its place. Otherwise he would have to give up his way of life. Therefore true radicalness of the philosophic tidote to our prejudice. Socrates. and could not be. and Socrates must adjust to them. he must earn their good will and teach them to respect his tastes. will show what higher concerns pardon him for it. This situation is a paradigm of the relation of the philosopher to the city. cratic philosophy is life. these sacrifices are so great that to many they do not seem worthwhile: one of the most civilized cities which has ever existed thought it better to sacrifice philosophy in the person of Socrates rather than face the alternative he presented. in admitting his guilt. it is a dangerous and essentially questionable activity. In the Apology Socrates is condemned to death because a compromise acceptable to [ 310 ] . and we watch in it the foundation of political science. But these men who accost him have power. They are him because he admits his need for "values" and because now threatens him with destrucharder for him to understand because he has been taught that "values" cannot be established by reason and that science is simply the progress of publicly useful science tion. This is why philosophy needs an apology. If he cannot carry on his preferred activities unimpeded by the need for a compromise with his fellows. the only discipline which can bring the blessings of reason to the city. so in the Republic a group of men compels Socrates to remain with them and finally to give an account of himself. (327a-328b) As in the Apology the city compels Socrates to speak and defend himself. For these reasons it behooves us to study the Republic. Hostility to philosophy is the natural condition of man and the city. the interests of most men and their cities. For it is the first book which brings philosophy "down into the cities".

but his observations led him to the recognition that the Athenian procession was no better than that of the Thracians. he only imitates the democracy. takes the place of that torch race and is parallel to it. The question becomes: to what extent can the philosophers influence the gentlemen? It is this crucial middle class which is the primary object of the Republic and the education prescribed in it. He does not tell us the result of his prayers. does so. This little scene prefigures the three-class structure of the good regime developed in the Republic and outhnes the whole political problem. and their his strength is such that they always hold the philosophers in their grasp. The conversation. The difference between Athenian and Socratic tastes. in the Republic. His piety belongs to the city. may be. Polemarchus sees him hurrying off and orders a slave to order him to stay. (Adeimantus finally persuades Socrates to stay in the Piraeus by the promise of another innovation: a torch race on horseback. and that piety disposes him to care for the city. he emerges as the ruler of a tamed the people city which may not understand him but which is at least willing to per- mit him the unbridled pursuit of philosophy and access to the noble youth. Socrates' theory stands above the enthusiasm of national pride and is somehow beyond mere citizenship. Power is in the hands of the gentlemen. and power. also an innovation and itself innovating. everything depends upon the peoThere is a confrontation here between wisdom. Socrates hints that it is the Athenians who bring in new divinities. They can command the services of the many. Therefore it is part of the philosophers' self-interest to come to terms with them. who are not philosophers. with which he has more kinship than appears on the surface. he was motivated by piety and by theory—in the primitive and most revealing sense of that term. The Athenians were introducing a new goddess into their cult. it is open to change and mixed with curiosity. Socrates had accompanied Glaucon to the Piraeus both to pray and to see. the first fact is brute force. can be measured by the difference between a torch race in honor of the goddess and a friendly discussion about justice. too.Interpretive Essay would have meant his spiritual death. dealing with a different audience. In this episode. represented by Socrates. however. thought does not. as represented by Polemarchus reasonable one how [ 311 ] . leading to the recognition that no matter as ple's willingness to listen. Socrates has a taste for newness which is antithetical to the best political orders and which he shares with the democracy. idle curiosity. if he. But his piety is somewhat lax.) Socrates' piety brings him down to the Piraeus with Glaucon and puts him into the situation where he must discuss the city.

The practice of posing the exessential to the preservation of the city. is free of limiting prejudices. for one of its necessary consequences is corruption of the habits of the virtues. It is a destructive activity in the name a perilous undertaking for men who must main members of civil the eyes of Cephalus. Glaucon accepts on behalf of his friend. and the philosopher must take the place of the father at the center of the circle. This the burden of the rest of Book I. Once tional can begin a authority has been banished. But in order to carry on a frank discussion about justice. treme questions is a bad one. it is politically recognizable and easily defined. Hence wisdom and power reach a compromise.THE REPUBLIC and At first the opposition of the two principles is comAdeimantus and Polemarchus try to make Socrates choose to remain by offering him pleasant occupations if he does so. {328b-331d) Having made their social contract. the members of the group go to Polemarchus' house where they find his father. Since he is forced to become a member of this community. unlike wisdom. The only justification for ques- [ 312 ] . and hence antiquity. plete. but philosophers will rule. and a minfature community is formed. society and could not properly take place under He stands for those restraints on body and soul which are There are certain uncomfortable issues. and who does so precisely because he it is in almost all regimes governed by ancestral custom. It is more feasible to teach force to respect age than to teach it to respect wisdom. Socrates must induce Cephalus to leave the scene. is who dominates Age is the scene. more or less satisfactory. as him. and then he proceeds to found a political regime in which his friends. All tradi- tional opinions are discredited. can begin the search for an understanding of justice is which re- not merely opinion. this reverence must be overcome. Socrates soon establishes himself as its ruler by overcoming the other aspirants to the office. the raising of which usually indicates an inclination to vice on the part of those who do so. they take a vote and ratify their decision. of the convenis view of justice. Age is a practical substitute for wisdom because. and unaided reason. This accomplished. is one of the strongest ties which can bind a civil society together. It is a mixture of powerless wisdom and unwise power. and a new principle of rule emerges: consent. Cephalus. This criticism of liberation. All political life will be founded on such compromises. his title to rule. because Cephalus is beyond reason. and it would be impious to dispute the father. until the means can be discovered to permit the absolute rule of wisdom. The reverence for age. Socrates and his companions critical examination of the ancestral code. and Socrates grudgingly gives in to the fait accomfyli.

He presents himself as a lover of speeches. superior. a savage beast. The greatest good Cephalus has enjoyed from money is the avoid- [ 313 ] . and cities be the acquisition of wherewithal? The answer is yes and no. But he loves speeches only in his old age. by means of a few circumspect inquiries Socrates manages to reveal his character and his principles and. those of the tradition he represents. for his nature silent about eros leads neither to justice nor philosophy but to intense. eros is a terrible thing. Cephalus says that it is character. it is an imposing presence that awes those who might be tempted to look too closely. Thus. from the point of view of justice. He is a father in the fullest sense—he was once very erotic and he possesses a considerable store of money. seem to have led him into activities that are contrary to justice. life is always split between sinning and repenting. but it frees him for the fulfillment of certain family and religious duties which sublimate his life.Interpretive Essay tioning the old way would be that as a result a new. and his old age is spent worrying about them and atoning for them. but must. and it is only with the body's decline that he turns to the things of the soul. The passions of youth led him to bodily pleasures. For Cephalus. hence. He inherits the money and whatever improprieties were committed in the first making of it are lost in the mists of time. however appealing. Cephalus' youthful passions. he is not like Socrates who is poor and needs nothing more. Cephalus typifies the ancestral which cannot. Only by the death of eros and its charms can such a gentleman become fully reliable. It would be unseemly. Cephalus would be very different and much less happy without money. way which Cephalus does not know of might emerge. be questioned. Then the old man is delicately set aside. The ancestral is by its its own foundations. private bodily satisfaction. Money is necessary. Although his appearance is brief. But Cephalus is not a simple money-maker. which enables him to be contented in old age. an attribute of the soul. For a man like Cephalus. speeches are a way of spending his old age. for Socrates they constitute the highest human activity. and lead to an undu~e concentration on money if one were to insist too much on its importance. Characteristic of Cephalus and men like him is a salutary forgetting of the preconditions of one's well being? families their kind of life. and thereby a friend of Socrates. and it is doubtful whether he considers that his prime. Socrates poses a rather crude question: doesn't money help? Aren't the things with which Cephalus is concerned really tied to money? a Isn't the insistence on character merely way of hiding the fact of dependence on money and of attributing one's happiness to oneself rather than to the true material source of Must not the overriding concern of private men.

He was inclined to laugh them off. which is Cephalus' prime preoccupation. is what causes Cephalus to leave. accordingly. Socrates acts as though Cephalus had tried to define justice and objects to the definition he himself constructs out of Cephalus' statement. Socrates' objection is very simple. Everyone knows that it is just [ 314 ] . In response to Cephalus' moving account of how he wishes to use his money in such a way as to live out his life in justice and piety. he worried little about injustices he might be committing. and makes the discussion one concerning human justice alone. Socrates is silent about the gods and the sacrifices owed to them. Socrates takes command of the little community. In a word. whether this is because he thinks Cephalus' understanding of piety is adequate or because he is not interested in piety. forces Cephalus to leave. with his question. in his discussion of paying one's debts. Socrates as much as tells him that he does not know what justice is and thereby undermines his life. Here for the time we touch on the subject which is to become the theme of the Republic. for. Socrates becomes argumentative. The old man is afraid of punishment after death. This is one of the most decisive moments of the dialogue. The question of money seems to lead him to the question of justice. Second. With his should care about others if there are gods who defend justice. so he does not want to depart owing debts to men or sacrifices to gods. This. he is elsewhere performing sacrifices to the gods. Justice. In the first place he says nothing about half of what interests Cephalus: he does not mention piety. Only as death and death's perspective approaches does fear cause him to become concerned about his duties to men and gods. along with his unwillingness to face the fact that he might be ignorant of the very obligations he is trying sc? hard to meet. or having cheated or deceived first money he can pay his debts and offer his sacrifices and because he possesses money he is not so dependent on others that he need deceive in order to stay alive.THE REPUBLIC ance of injustice and impiety. Socrates' procedure is quite strange. Justice is a matter of self-interest: one anyone. Socrates forgets the divine. Instead of encouraging the old man in his laudable intentions. but prudence counsels a punctilious attention to his accounts with men and gods. While the discussion is going on. The tales told by the poets about punishments in another world for injustices committed in this one concerned Cephalus little when he was younger. concerned with what is forgotten in that discussion. He is not sure that there are such punishments or even that he had really done unjust deeds. and makes the nature of justice the problem of the discussion. is telling the truth and paying one's debts. according to Socrates' rendition of Cephalus' view.

for it would force between the just and the legal. Although the definitions of justice proposed by Cephalus. Polemarchus. If everyone had to decide whether the laws properly apply so. too. life and ttie next are necessary to insure obedience which does not seem to for those instances in them Cephalus' definition fails because it cannot account which one is admittedly exempted from obeying [ 315 ] . we must simply obey their laws. The problem of justice is simply expressed in his view: if there are no gods. The unity of things expressed in the identification of the just and the legal under the protection of the gods has been rent asunder by what is truly him to make a distinction Socrates' simple objection to Cephalus' assertion that a man should pay his debts. it is impossible. is aware that one must sometimes deviate from the principles of justice in the name of justice. for that is what they wish. One must seek a noncontradictory definition of justice. From each something is learned which is of the essence of political life and which is reflected in the final definition and the regime that embodies it. From Cephalus we learn that for most men justice can mean only law-abidingness. He must adhere to the laws. and that rewards and punishments in this desirable in itself. is content to forget this fact in his sacrifices. inbeyond the capacities and energies of most men would be imposed on them. His lighthearted He leaves to his son the con- good for other men. Cephalus. to say that justice would be anarchy. the discussions concerning them are not simply critical nor is their result only negative. but he has never considered what the consequences of that fact are. even though his actions piety can seem extreme sideration of may be harming others. there is no reason to be just or to worry. the political result dividually. but everyone is also aware that there are occasions Thus. in each case that arises. or he would have to spend his time in finding out what justice is rather than in doing it.Interpretive Essay to pay one's debts. when one need not and should not do contradicting oneself. For Cephalus the just is identical to the law of the city. and the law is protected by the gods. human and divine. And he leaves to all thoughtful selfish men the consideration of what the profitable life would be if there are no punishments after death. selfishness. But common sense tells us that laws are not always conducive to the good of those they are intended to benefit. Now the members of this group must try to find out what justice is and whether justice is good for the man who practices it. however. a task Cephalus. if there are. and. without is paying one's debts. and Thrasymachus are all found wanting and must be abandoned.

Xhe simple example of the insane man who demands the return of his weapon. Polemarchus is aware that he cannot get help from Simonides and that he must himself find reasons if he is to be satisfied with his beliefs about justice. JJp believes in the sanctity of private property: injustice is taking what belongs to others. poetic authority apparently does not refer to the even greater authority of the gods. Polemarchus' original intention when he interrupted was merely to support his father's conten- He fails in his tion that is owed. respecting what belongs to them. is going to attempt to define justice in a way which is consistent with the maintenance of private property. leads far from the letter of the law. with greater propriety. this is the first step on the road from unconditional acceptance of the ancestral order to the new regime based on reason in which the authority ofthe father's opinions and the power of his property play no role. Rationality and good will. But even here Socrates does not criticize the authority. call into question the opinions of the young Polemarchus based on the authority of Simonides than the dogmas of the pious old Cephalus based on the authority of the traditions about the gods. Belonging is defined by the law. Polemarchus is compelled to learn how to argue.THE REPUBLIgI the law. if generalized. [ 316 ] . He does so by citing the however (as opposed to that of Cephalus). for it is unreasonable and base. But insanity and the intention to injure are suffi- He ^ cient grounds for taking away from a man what is thought to belong to him. In his case. or to put it otherwise. Socrates can. since he is right. Socrates makes the ironic assumption that Simonides must be right and that. and the Republic culminates in the elaboration*of a regime in which the only title to property is virtue and which is hence communistic. It becomes Polemarchus' responsibility to explain what standard should be loioked to when one deviates from the letter of the law—which is equivalent to stating the purpose for which laws are instituted. which men like Cephalus must respect. his views must accord with the results of rational argument. are ap- parently conditions of the respect of a man's right to ownership. Finally he and Socrates join in agreeing that Simonides could not have said what Polemarchus asserted he said. has no grasp of the intention or principle of law. but only because it is assumed that he accepts the authority of Polemarchus and Socrates who are now free of one should pay what authority of a poet. he merely asks Polemarchus to interpret. By the end of his discussion with Socrates. justice. {331d-336a) Polemarchus inherits his father's duty of defending the law and hence of defending that property which he inherit. capacity to use a thing well and attachment to the community and its laws. he expresses his own view. Simonides remains respectable.

Also at this point. Money in the so manifestly dangerous to another withholds his money. Now justice is not giving back to any man what he has deposited but giving good things to friends. for he does not see any problem in knowing what is good for a insists that justice is friend. with the recognition that a man's property in money only extends so far as he can use that money well—only so far as is good for him—private property becomes radically questionable. After more prodding by Socrates. for it broadens the scope of the exceptions and changes their sense. and the good—infinite themes which it now becomes necessary to understand if one wishes to understand justice. justice must be practiced until it is manifestly harmful to oneself. or community. If one for so doing is not likely to be problem of justice—the good it does the community. A thing is not owed if it works harm to render it. Cephalus was interested in what justice would profit himself. Immediately after own definition of justice. This is Polemarchus' and the gentleman's [317 ] . his justification is the own defense. and no harm. as Cephalus did not do. a question to which Cephalus was profoundly indifferent. The relation between justice conceived as one's own good and justice conceived as the common good is the abiding concern of the Republic. Justice isbenefiting friends and harming enemies.Interpretive Essay him. But Socrates changes the thing deposited in this case: it is money. but it accounts for the exceptions: one need not aid a man who intends to do one damage—he must be a friend. This small — is change its most revealing. Polemarchus. and one must look to the good of the other party. Socrates explains Polemarchus' definition of justice— doing good. In order to save his definition Polemarchus must alter the sense of owing. but same objection that silenced his father. Polemarchus is interested in its advantage for others. Polemarchus to use is the last participant in the discussion sufficient an authority as a who attempts cause for behef. to friends in terms of the example he used to embarrass Cephalus. Cephalus weapon because selfish one of his would not return the owner might hurt him with it. He presents the other side of the hands of a madman is not man as is a weapon. him comes Thrasymachus with Polemarchus Socrates again poses the his paying what one owes. the justification that he will harm others but rather that he will harm himself. He is really much more of a gentleman than his father. Cephalus and Polemarchus represent the two poles. Now the focus of attention is on what it does to the one who receives rather than to the one who gives. Polemarchus is led to complete his definition by assertingthat enemies areowed harm. Two great themes emerge: friendship. not a weapon. does not recognize what has happened. as opposed to the individual. In general this would mean following Cephalus' rule. of course.

Socrates does not simply reject as it he appears to do. it might well be asked why it is necessary to harm enemies. Our admiration for this character pursuit of an ideal. The warriors in his best regime. That dignity consists in unswerving loyalty. pares to noble dogs. is manifest in our horror at the natural. This is the necessary political definition of justice^ and it produces its specific kind of human nobility expressed in the virtue of the citizen. were obliterated from the heart and mind of man. political life would be impossible. To have a family or a city that is one's own implies the distinction between insiders and outsiders. and the outsiders are potential enemies. even though there were not men who are natively unjust. and the inclination to help the former and harm the latter. "for the ancient Greeks moral greatness consisted in a love of friends that is as constant as the hatred of one's enemies is unchanging. most obvious attachments a man forms—loyalty to his family and his city. he clearly agrees with Lessing that it is the formula for gentlemanly and heroic nobility and higher than most alternatives. It is more powerful because of its exclusiveness. for it is far from the morality of universal love to which we are accustomed. And. and we must make great efforts if we are to understand its dignity.THE REPUBLIC view of justice. out of fear." Although Socrates finds this understanding of justice ultimately inadequate. and may even be compelled. for it man who up is willing to betray family or friends for gain. or even in the Such loyalty seems springs in us with our first appetites and tastes. a love which does not make distinctions among men. it is identical with love of our omti. It does not have the abstract aspect of the love of a humanity which a man cannot know in its entirety. loyalty to the first. although human concern. The answer is twofold. The good life of one group of men leaves other groups outside who would like. Justice as helping friends and harming enemies is peculiarly a political definition of justice. share in the most salient he comcharacteristic of noble whom [ 318 ] . it can only do so if it has citizens who care for it and are willing to kill the citizens of other nations. There are unjust men who would destroy the good things and the good life of one's own family or nation if one did not render them impotent. If the distinction between friends and enemies. It sounds harsh to our ears. As Lessing approvingly put it. to take away the good things of the first group. and its dignity stands or falls with the dignity of political life. there is a scarcity of good things in the world. many might be willing to admit that one's duties toward one's own take precedence over those toward mankind at large. or why there need be enemies at all. Every nation has wars and must defend itself. it stays within the limits of possible But.

A doctor wishes to give what is fitting to bodies and knows what is fitting and how to give it. in keeping money deposits. As a matter of fact. Medicine and navigation are of even greater use than justice to men who are sick or sailing.Interpretive Essay dogs: gentleness toward acquaintances and harshness toward strangers. is divided into three parts: (1) a discussion of how one can do good to friends (332c-334b). Polemarchus meant want and denies to enemies the things they want. an impossible. The question is to find what justice does that no other art does. Justice might mean depriving him of what he thinks belongs to him or giving him something to which he appears to have no claim. it must be the art which gives good to friends and harm to enemies. by asserting that Simonides meant that the owed is The deposit is no longer important. Therefore Socrates turns to the most evident. Justice must be some kind of knowledge. must also possess an art. but knowing what those good things are. This response is more helpful for learning about Polemarchus' However. and this is obviously a difficult. Now the problem becomes to identify the art of justice which. just as cookery gives seasoning to foods. perhaps the only sure. Polemarchus suggests that justice is most useful and indispensable in the affairs of war. task. the only consideration is what fitting for him. and hence each is capable of working the benefactions or injuries called for by the definition of justice. to put it mildly. This is the key to the strengths and weaknesses of the political man. models of knowledge of what is fitting—the arts. common sense does not apprehend so quickly as it does the other arts. or. In this reformulation. Formally. (2) an attempt to define a friend (334c-335b). in peacetime. rather. A sick friend is justly treated when given medicine whether he is equivalent to giving to each what to friends the things they one gives likes it or not. immediately comes to light that justice is not the only art capable of benefiting friends and harming enemies. The just man. and (3) a critique of the notion Socrates' analysis of the definition that a just man Socrates begins the fitting. Socrates changes Polemarchus' meaning by concentrating not on the wants of men but on what is objectively proper for them. it [ 319 ] . can do harm (335b-336a). each of the arts aims at some good. and. Whether a man has is deposited something or not is irrelevant. if he is to succeed in his intention. doing good to friends and harm to ene- mies that is fitting. This shift in emphasis implies that the primary concern man must be something Polemarchus has never considered: what counts is not so much the disposition to give the good things to of the just friends.

and a trained banker a better partner in peacetime than a just man. as he does in the other cases. Socrates has indicated by the examples he uses that. and even do them. Instead of being the model of reliability. but justice is nothing beyond the exercise of his art. and the kind of good things Polemarchus means and the sense in which the just citizen is a warrior emerge more clearly. What has happened is that Socrates and Polemarchus discover that the world is divided up among the arts and there is nothing left for an art of justice. A doctor may do good to his friends and hence be just. arts have subject matters but justice does not. hence justice is not an art and cannot do good. The connection of war and money is obvious. Socrates could easily show that a skilled soldier is a better partner in war than a just man. the just man becomes the archetype of untrustworthiness. He is a thief and a liar. the contrary of the debt-paying. and the limitations of his kind of moralism are exposed here. This fact is particularly shocking to Polemarchus. that they can effect opposite results with equal ease. Nothing in the art would guide a man as to which he should do. 333b). and there are certain things Of course. the possessor of power without guiding principle. but he refuses to recognize the consequences of what he does. for its consequence is that the would be as adept at stealing as at guarding a thing and would lie as well as he tells the truth. he would merely be technically proficient. justice is concerned with the acquisition and distribution of good things in communities of men while keeping off the outsiders (332c-d. 333a. so the result of this argument should not be surprising. But Polemarchus is unwilling to accept it. If he did so. truth-telling just man defined by Polemarchus' father —a definition which Polemarchus has inherited and the substance of which he is trying to defend. Life is ordered according to fixed and the exceptions are hidden in silence. Socrates hints that the good things which Polemarchus defends might well have been acquired in less than decent ways. conversation friends is that justice is extraordinary result of this useless in the enterprise of doing good to The and harm to enemies. it is never supposed to do.THE REPUBLIC view of justice than for solving the problem of justice's subject matter. He may admit that they must be done. for Polemarchus at least. the [ 320 ] . it would seem dishonorable things— a gentleman to rules. Arts are the means of doing good and harm. practitioner of the art of justice has been admitted that the just man sometimes would not pay his debts and would lie even to his friends. But. end in the loss of all standards. Justice has disappeared. which is something other than justice. Socrates insists on pointing out that the arts are neutral. Moreover. He is a gentleman. Polemarchus could be accused of hypocrisy.

Moreover. This is what Socrates meant in the Apology when he told of his quest for wise men. with Polemarchus outlines in a negative way what the character of the requisite knowledge must be. We all sense that justice is a disposition. one which every man must possess in addition to his skill as . and. It would seem that arts require par- ticular subject matters to that they are morally neutral.Interpretive Essay memory character is lost in the mists of time. We are forced abandon the assumption. in a sense. as the Republic reveals. however much habit may play a role in the character we call just. make them reliable. kill them for profit as cure them. he found. it ment of Cephalus. But. and that obedience would. Cephalus is proof enough of that. But. whereas artisans did in- Now. the assumption that justice lead to serious difficulties. Justice necessarily and primarily demands a knowledge of what is good for man and the community. carpentry. Poets and statesmen. is However just that may be. also clear that it is simply insufficient for a man to follow rules without any knowledge of the reasons behind them. no matter how technically profihe may be. and one might very well ask why it was made in the first place. It cannot be like any of those arts which are always present in every community—shoemaking. this discussion [ 321 ] . as Cephalus originally suggested. Our doctors are supposed to obey the Hippocratic oath. otherwise the knowledge and skills of the arts are in the service of doctor's activity authoritative myths. knew literally nothing. is is of which not averse to lies and is certainly no respecter of private property. his talents are useless or dangerous if there is no knowledge about this first question. with the banishwas replaced by what men can know by the evidence of reasoned experience. ultimately. Socrates. of the reasons cient why following it is salutary. it is for themselves. the most important thing is the knowledge of the goodness of that oath. Just why did Socrates turn the conversation in this direc- tion? In the first place. his such that he would probably rather work harm than use ungentlemanly means to a good end. etc. A doctor must be disposed to heal otherwise he might just as well liis patients as well be able to do so. ancestral authority must be remembered that. The desire to know what one owes other men would most immediately lead in the direction of trying to discern an art which can guide us just as medicine guides us in matters of health. The arts are the most obvious sources of knowledge available to all men as men without the need of any act of faith or the instruction of a particular tradition. does expressed ironically in the notion that the art an man is both useless and and a thief. even worse. The worthwhileness of a depends on this. weaving.

The discussion with Polemarchus leads to the same result as the questioning of the artisans described in the Apology. In this way the arts would provide what is fitting to each man. justice must be knowledge of that good which none of the other arts knows but which each presupposes. Hence Socrates teaches [ 322 ] . to make it one among many arts. For they were content with their competence and closed to the larger questions.— all are in need of an architect if a house is to be produced. that art must be justice. If each of the artisans obeys the law established by a legislator who is wise in this science. The artisans are found insufficient. and who can direct the doctor to do what will most help the patient. which divides the world among the arts without reflecting on that world which is divided. He is more important than they are. or a roofer himself. but this is not so. Lawgivers actually organize all the arts and tell their practitioners what they can and cannot do. and justice would take care of itself in lawabiding practice of the arts. Such knowledge is what Socrates is seeking. They deal with partial goods which presuppose a knowledge of the whole good to which they minister. points to an art which does so. he guides them. The doctor can produce health. the roofer. The carpenter. Unfortunately their knowledge was limited and and Socrates said that he would prefer to be ignorant as he was than knowledgeable as they were. In other words. and he does not need to be a carpenter. Without the architect. justice must be a master art. What Socrates proposes is a legislative or political science. The problem is to combine the concerns of poets and statesmen with knowledge as artisans possess it. The very inadequacy of this argument. There are master arts which rule whole groups of ministerial arts and are necessary to them. The error of the discussion was to look for a specific subject matter for justice. and the insufficiency of the arguments here shows why. the mason. The artisans are models of knowledge. and similarly with all of the arts. ruling the arts which produce partial goods so as to serve the whole good. Similarly. These are what Aristotle calls architectonic arts. deed know something. he would be just. These arguments are based on the premise that the arts like medicine are self-sufficient. etc. to act as though only the doctor had anything to say about medicine. but that health is good he does not learn from medicine. To help a sick friend one needs not only a doctor but someone who knows to whom health is fitting and how many other goods should be sacrificed to it. all the other arts connected with building lack an end and are useless or worse. but their kind of knowledge is not applicable to the domain of poets and statesmen. a mason.THE REPUBLIC partial. To be ignorant in Socrates' way is to be open to the whole.

would have the profoundest of effects on Polemarchus' life. effort. This is the solution which the argument compels community of artisans ruled by philosophers would be one in which good would be done to friends. and many are not able to judge the true character of those they call friends. Our friends are those around us. must wait until later. He is like his father who wanted Socrates as a friend and in- [ 323 ] . The problem is whether they must really be good men or only seem to be so in order to be friends. for. and this is why he sees no difficulty in doing good to friends. Polemarchus answers sensibly that the reality is not so important but rather what is thought about it. After thoroughly confusing Polemarchus about the way to do good to friends and harm to enemies. typical of most men.Interpretive Essay in the full sense one must be a philosopher. This condition is admitted in speech but has little efthinks. Almost all men have friends. His is a prephilosophic world. It is fect in deed. He knows who friends are. a And credited before philosophy can even be sought. This solution. he would benefit bad men and harm good ones and hence be unjust. for his own. and would not be able indifferently to produce opposite results. and its authorities must be completely disus to seek. and the insistence that they must be good is a secondary consideration. He and Polemarchus agree that men consider as friends those they believe to be good. Justice in this way would be knowledge. The poets and the laws tell Polemarchus the proper place of each thing. if it were taken seriously. And this means that men who loyally serve their friends not be avoided simply by making more This consequence canPolemarchus' view is not merely a result of his laziness but a product of his attachment to family and city. by that in order to be just is that philosophy its very definition. Friendship would be very rare if both parties had to be good men and know it. for Polemarchus really has no notion of what philosophy is. it seeks the whole good. and necessary to justice. He makes the primitive identification of the good with are constantly and thoughtlessly doing injustice. Socrates turns to the question of what a friend is. A simple reformulation solves the problem: who appear to be good and are. Philosophy does have a subject matter which helps in doing good to friends and harm to enemies. And it alone is not neutral. however. for it alone knows what is good or fitting. one that has an abstract ring to it. But from this simple admission follows a consequence which is intolerable to Polemarchus: to the extent that the just man erred about the goodness of men. and its discovery is impossible on this level of thought. would be useful. His first admission that his friends were those who seemed to him good reflected the way he really firiends are properly those But this little an easygoing outlook. change.

Once the what is good and one's own is made. His is an utterly unpolitical view. however. If the good must be pursued. then caring for one's own must be extinguished. ^ I 324 ] . Polemarchus would regard the abandonment of his primary loyalties as the destruction of the purpose and dignity of his life. the principle distinction between of loyalty to family and city is undermined. In order to be just. thereby opposing his own understanding of justice to that of the gentleman. Socrates does not suggest that the just man would want to benefit all men. one that seems to deny the distinction between friend and enemy. He asserts that no just man would harm anyone. Only the things of the mind are such as to belong to all men without neciessary exclusion of some men and the war consequent on that exclusion. Certainly. only that he would want to benefit his friends and remain indifferent to the others. It takes no account of the desire to avenge insults and appears to be predicated on the notion that life is not essentially competitive. There cannot be cities without enemies.THE REPUBLIC vited him to become a member o£ the family. for every city is in competition with other cities for the possession of scarce things. Socrates has led us to the observation that in order to do good to friends and harm to enemies one need only be a philosopher and givejip_ongj^ttachm£Qts to tho sg_^^iQm-tnQsLnign call_friends. in is the highest good. even in nations fighting one's own nation. blood ties are what count. he must make this sacrifice. Polemarchus' view is is that which property the highest. he is to be consistent with the argument. Even the loyalty to the city is understood as an extension of the family. and they must attempt to prevent the distinction from even coming to light. good. This undermines family and city. This tendency to see the good in one's own and to devote oneself to it is one of the most powerful urges of human nature and the source of great devotion and energy. one must seek good men wherever they may be. at least the most needful. and a man cannot be a good citizen without wishing ill to his city's enemies. Socrates' view is that of philosophy. NowTie attacks the entire view implied by the definition. A man who wishes to be just must be cosmopolitan. in which knowledge of the city. or it will make one unjust and impede the quest for the good. One can be indifferent to enemies if one divorces oneself from the city's perspective and if the things one considers good are not threatened or scarce. Nobody need take a man's knowledge from him in order to enjoy it as one would have to do in order to make use of his money. Polemarchus believes that it is impossible to benefit friends without harming enemies. Men who are outsiders can become friends only by becoming "naturalized" members of the family. If. Thus far.

is the product of a rich tyrant: if wealth is the goal. not sought for as such. for those are the good things. With all of Polemarchus' admiration for justice. with respect to his or its specific virtue. so to harm someone would be to make him more unjust. Socrates further asserts that the practitioners of arts are dedicated to goals which they cannot. Thrasymachus continues on the road to it. Thrasymachus says. is the morality of a band of robbers who are face to face with their victims. is human virtue. there is no reason why this selfishness should not be extended to the individual ifjustice is not good in itself. And. in principle. Socrates' view is perfectly consistent with stealing from or killing an enemy just so long as he is not made more unjust. Only if justiceJs_arL_end. This is what Socrates exposes and what Thrasymachus is about to exploit. and the goods desired by the gentlemen would. a road to which Socrates' questions have directed him. ignore. it is not the highest thing. and thus cannot harm him. Correcting his earlier statement that the arts are simply neutral. Justice. then the best way to attain it is by breaking all faith and seizing power in one's city and conquering as many nations as one can. not^xaeans. What he meant was taking the enemy's property or life. uisite to the satisfaction of collective selfishness: bers of your own group so that He is (336b-354b) Thrasymachus bursts violently into the discussion. Gentlemanly morality is self-contradictory. angry because Socrates and Polemarchus had been engaged in a [ 325 ] . Now Polemar- chus had no such notion in mind when he spoke of harming enemies. Therefore the just man cannot by justice make another man more unjust. Polemarchus is in an untenable position somewhere between utter selfishness and total dedication to the common good. Socrates and Polemarchus actually have entirely diiferent understandings of what it means to harm someone.I I Interpretive Essay In the concluding portion of their discussion. Justice is more of a means to the end of preserving life and property than itself the end of a good life. Justice. is it reasonable to be unremittingly just. and only a simpleton would be duped into making something more of it. There is a tension in Polemarchus—of which he is unaware—between his love of property and his love of justice. which seems so gentlemanly. he asserts without proof. to the extent they are true to their arts. This is why Socrates is able to claim that this definition. lead in the direction of tyranny. if he were clear-sighted. Socrates says that to harm is to make a person or thing worse. Polemarchus' definition of justice might be regarded as the rule req- be loyal to the memyou can best take advantage of the outsiders. Socrates and Polemarchus differ about what is truly good.

as they will then. or a single man. The just is whatever the sovereign in its laws says is just. and now. He charges Socrates with wrongdoing. the well-born. the direct opposite of prudence. since Socrates' method is irony. in which he himself does not believe. with deceiving other men. in particular. his insistence that Soc- bested by Thrasymachus. and would cause men and cities to neglect their needs and interests. he explains that by the "stronger" he means those who hold power in a city and constitute its sovereign. is wise men This a notion that is [ 326 ] . without being questioned—Thrasymachus' art—is adapted to selfaggrandizement. whereas rhetoric. because it looks to the few wise rather than the many free. It is foolishness. as soon as he asserts that the just is the advantage of the stronger. like laws. govern their associationthey seek a common agreement instead of trying to win a victory. Moreover. The participants in a dialogue obey certain rules which. Socrates claims that he has no money. The very art of dialectic seems to impose a kind of justice on those who practice it. and. He imposes a higher good. Thrasymachus objects to the substance as well as the form of what he has just heard.T HE REPUBLIC He sees this as a form of weakness. if book teeming Thrasymachus makes the most explicit condemnation of Socrates. the rich. propose an appropriate punishment day when the condemned Socrates is forced by the Athenian law to propose his own penalty. To Thrasymachus. which appears to be as The terms of the two accusations seem to be different. whether that sovereign consists of the people. clear as day. in a trial. the art of making long speeches dialogue. but is soon becomes evident that Thrasymachus' definition of justice same as the city's and that he acts as its representative. This is precisely what the city says. it Thrasymachus and the city are both angry at Soc- rates for not accepting their point of view. as he will to the Athenian jurors. his friends offer to provide him with for himself prefigures that fateful the necessary funds. antidemocratic. he is a dissembler or a hypocrite. which causes a man to hold the position that justice is doing good to others while also supposing that it is good for the doer. but is. Justice as doing good to others fits in well with the self-abnegation of dialectic and is just as unsound. For. Thrasymachus sees dialectic as an opponent of rhetoric and wishes to show his audience the superiority of rhetoric. with allusions to Socrates' accusation and rates. Thrasymachus adopts the accents of moral indignation in the cause of immorality. Thrasymachus insists that the decree of the sovereign is ulrule. i Thrasymachus wishes to punish Socrates. and Socrates is disloyal to both city and Thrasymachus in suggesting that justice goes beyond the law—that law may not even be necessary if really the not only antilegal.

whose art the passions of the city. as Cephalus' example shows. Based on the tacit premise that justice is good. But. yet the city will continue to put lawbreakers to death as unjust And men and sight enemies of the common city. Thrasymaknowledge of the world and the actual practice of the cities. the argument led to the conclusion that justice is an ai:t that does good to those to whom it ministers. The city insists that its laws are just and punishes those who break them. they are a just A function of the regime. That is certainly what the city says it is. Practically speaking. certainly the greatest but it can also be the enemy of justice and is enemy of philosophy. its laws men who govern the city. The city always presents its laws as a constitutive part of itself. and no one sacrifices his own personal advantage to it. in fact. Thrasymachus' identification with the city's view of justice helps mentioned moral indignation in the cause of immorality. it must be embodied in a code of political law in order to have a real effect. Those laws themselves serve the private interest of a part of the city and do to explain his previously harm to the rest of it. Laws are not directed to the common in good. Thrasymachus. and. the community is bound together by justice. referring to his man never harms anyone. each gains his fulfillment in the prosperity of the whole. But Thrasymachus has stripped away die^ veils that covered the selfishness of the rulers and their laws. even if there is a natural justice. or the rich. On is the contrary. an innocence destructive to the happiness of those who are taken in by it. tion. of the kind of in a city. treats this view as the result of a culpable innocence. those laws can vary as the territory and the populace cannot. The sovereign makes the [ 327 ] . is its agent in condemning Soc- and his action in the service of this passion imitates the city's ac- The immediate cause of Thrasymachus' ire is the end of Socrates' argument with Polemarchus. When the poor. The just man profits both others and himself.Interpretive Essay no recourse beyond it. The anger awakened is men by the of indifference or hostility to law a powerful force in protecting the law and hence the gives speech to rates. or a tyrant take over the rule change correspondingly. while Socrates insists that laws are just only to the extent they conform to a standard of justice superior to the laws and independent of the wishes of the timate. good. and that there is sovereign. chus. if—to use Socrates' hyperbolic ex- pression—justice human virtue. like the territory and the populace. justice is law-abidingness. This means that there is a common good. which also has its counterpart in the actions of the city.. or the old families. Anger seems a proper reaction to lawbreaker^ who are thought to harm others for their selfish end s.

democracy makes laws which favor and protect democracy. hence obedience to the law may be as much to their disadvantage as their advantage. all lawgivers. the lawgiver cannot base himself upon it. and that justice phenomenon and must be between them is whether all rulers. Socrates does not deny that it is the stronger who rule and establish the law. The regime is the absolute beginning point. Socrates. Like Polemarchus. therefore. Oligarchies make laws which favor and protect oligarchy. Justice is not the advantage of the stronger unless the stronger (the rulers) know what their own advantage is. and the party which wins out over the others is the source of the law. there is nothing beyond it. If this be the case. The emphasis now shifts from jtrene. then. or any other politically relevant group within the city. or the great majority of the people. prudence and self-interest would seem to dictate to the individual that either he should try to evade the law or else become the reverence or in fear. There is no fundamental difference between tyranny and other regimes because they all have the same selfish end.THE republic! and those laws always happen to reflect its interests. which is both strong and public-spirited. however. Socrates turns. he takes it for granted that the most common objects of desire—particularly whatever has to do wealth are advantageous and — that knowledge of them is a given. whether the stronger is lawmaker himself Thrasymachus' thesis is simply that the regime makes the laws and that the members of the regime look to their own good and not the common good. He who obeys them in laws. for justice is a result of law. The two men thus agree that the character of the ruling group is is the core of politics. and Socrates tries to find a kind of man. He quickly succeeds in embarrassing him by the reflection that sometimes rulers make mistakes. etc. is also asking whether the rulers really know what is advantageous and leads Thrasymachus into a region of profound problems on which he has hardly reflected. Socrates' question appears to refer to rulers' mistakes about the means to their ends.th__to knowledge. is not a fundamental phenomenon. that the rulers are a political issue the stronger. then. From this point on the question is the regime—who rules. To understand the kind of justice practiced in any city one must look to the regime. all too human. simply serving the advantage of the stronger is a single man. must be selfish in the way Thrasymachus insists they are. The rulers. The laws have their source in the human. Thraj:g]aa chus is the more_thou£bt- [ 328 ] . Justice. but could apply to mistakes about the proper ends of action. The city is not a unity but a composite of opposed parties. He silently accepts the view that all existing regimes are as Thrasymachus says they are. a political class. to the criticism of Thrasymachus' view of the embodied in the laws of a city.

Thrasymachus' regime is as improbable and opposed to experience as is Socrates'. He wishes to educate a clever. and a mistaken niler for him would be one who did not know the appropriate means to the given ends.Interpretive Essay ful voi ce of the most thoughtless opinions and desires. however. anticipates Socrates' best regime by developing an alternative opposed to it. If law has no deeper authority than human con- [ 329 1 . It is not that rulers do behave with scientific selfishness but that they should. the rulers in both regimes do have in common. that is. almost all rulers are not really rulers. requiring rulers to be selfish with perfect knowledge. But. so in plausible observation that rulers of selfish intention are the source of what amounts to a moral imperative. he has simply law. selfish man who knows how to get what he wants. as Socrates will show. shows Polemarchus ( who is n qy^ Socrates' ally and de feijder) how obvious this route is. The crude Clitophon. There no need to define rulers by any criterion other than their having the power to make laws in the city. He teaches an by means of which men can get those good things. Thrasymachus. the fact that they are knowers. chooses to respond to Socrates' objection by arguing that the ruler is always right and knows his own advantage. this artisan of selfish satisfaction is really not in harmony with the vulgar tastes Thrasymachus is also committed to supporting. public-spirited. that justice is what appears to be the adart vantage of the stronger. and the question of what is truly is advantageous is set aside. however. This position may not be true but it does not defy common sense. Thrasymachus. Thrasymachus could easily have circumvented the difficulty which Socrates presents. Rather than defend the Socrates' good city. This position positivism: the just is cldse to that of legal phon asserts the is what the city says is just and nothing more. As in where rulers will be trained who are perfectly Thrasymachus' there will be rulers who are perfectly selfish. unlike the advocates of a crude positivism. Why does Thrasymachus do so? In the first place. who enters to defend Thrasymachus. Thrasymachus encumbers himself with the responsibility for thought through the consequences of his position. The ruler who makes mistakes is not a ruler. Clitolaws established by the rulers are based on their ap- parent advantage. as Clitophon insists he meant. The thesis merely asserts that the only source and sanction of law is the sovereign and that it is hence benighted to look for higher justification. Clitophon's solution to Socrates' difficulty does not contain those internal contradictions which bring about Thrasymachus' downfall. and it seems based on the actual practice of cities. It is by developing this contradiction that Socrates will be able to tame the wild beast. as it were. Thrasymachus had only to say.

not by any particular skill which gives him the capacity to attain his end. Thrasymachus looks at politics from the point of view of the man who wants to live well and has understood the nature of justice. A ruler who errs about his advantage is not as such a ruler any more than a mathematician who errs in calculation is as such a math- ematician. He cannot be understood without reference to this end any more than the doctor can be understood without reference to the end of curing sick men. Thrasymachus promises political success to his students. teach them? Clitophon's argument implies that the ruler is defined only by holding office. It has a monopoly of wisdom. and. makes a man a ruler and enables sought for in the activity of ruling. Otherwise every individual would have an appeal from it. rulers. is part of his profes- [ 330 ] . divine or human. and the intelligent tyrant seems to be the one who has best learned the lesson. Thrasymachus as the practitioner and teacher of an art. if there is no common good. This profession. he is a failure as a ruler and a man. he is in Athens looking for students. any on what kind of life he should live realizes he cannot rely on the law for guidance. Its pronouncements must be authoritative. and all knowledge. This is the lesson which the individual can well draw from the teaching that law is nothing more than the sovereign's will. Further. But if there is no art the possession of which drama Thrasymachus plays the insistence that it knows the truth. must be ratified and codified by the sovereign. him to attain the good what would Thrasymachus have to would be disastrous for Thrasymachus' skill fulfill He is therefore claims he teaches a which can make men their wishes. They wish to be rulers. finally. As Socrates suggests. must make a claim himself to possess knowledge and to be able to convey that knowledge to others. political youths of high ambition. whose money he needs in order to live. in the sense that they will be able to The or- dinary ruler potentially the completely successful selfish ruler. If he fails to attain it. he will properly use the law for his own private satisfaction. to do so is almost the only alternative. The ruler is hence a man who seeks his own advantage. to the extent that in this role of the city. Every man reasonably pursues his own good. he echoes the city's For the city could hardly admit that its laws are essentially fallible. And. it is this perspective which causes him to go beyond Clitophon's reflects at all man who formulation. His definition of the rulers "in the precise sense" sional propaganda. one which he believes to be the most important art for men who want to live a good life. He directs his appeal to noble. since other goals are illusory.THE REPUBLIC vention.

Knowledge is not pursued for the sake of knowledge. This argument is of particular interest because it poses the problem of justice in a most radical form. a lover of knowledge. He is a model of that uncommon phenomenon. This is when charmed by Republic. Thrasymachus' definition leads to the furthest extreme from his intention. destroys him. whom argument founded and who are. If one wanted to have a city of men who cared only for the public rather than the private. both because Thrasymachus is compelled by the argument as a less rational man would not be when an argument goes counter to his passions. Just as one must have almost unbelievable conditions to found the best city in deed. on the contrary. he forgets himself completely. and because he is intrigued by Socrates' art and skill." His passions are in the knowledge although he devotes himself to a life of knowledge. a definition which assumes that ruling is an art and that art is a great good. at least in the precise sense. but he recognizes a certain superiority in the life devoted to knowing service of things other than for its own sake. all arts rule something. it is a simple matter for Socrates to refute —or rather to silence —him. Socrates manages to get the advantage over the great rhetorician. Thrasymachus' respect for art and reason enables Socrates to tame him. finally becomes his friend. "the intellectual. persuadable. at the can convince to adapt to a new kind of world which is contrary to their apparent advantage. he forgets his own advantage. He is also. we see that Thrasymachus is not merely a lover of gain. for taking knowledge seriously leads beyond preoccupation with one's private advantage toward a disinterested life devoted to universal concern. The characterized by having per- without whom a city could not be same time. After Thrasymachus posits the precise definition of the ruler. is wi ll. The practitioner of an art. Even though his arguments are not always simply good. It is this contradiction that defeats him. The intellectual voice of the city can become aXook about a perfect is. The city. an impressive feat. [331 ] . does not serve himself. tractable as the city never city. To the extent to which a man is devoted to his calling. and they are interested in the good of the thing ruled. Thrasymachus. that men terlocutors to found it in speech. in his way. so one must have exceptional infect interlocutors. confronted with Socrates. one would only have to find a way of constituting one peopled by artisans in the precise sense—which is just the solution of the Republic.Interpretive Essay knower of an not In the discussion of this definition of the ruler who is a perfect art. Socrates proceeds to show that all arts are directed to subject matters and that they are concerned with those subject matters and not M'ith themselves. itself his arguments.

With the latter art he cares for himself. and he pursues his own good as well as that of others. what is the doctor to do who is offered a bribe for harming his patient? His two arts each make rigorous and contradictory claims upon him. according to Soc- rates. Socrates makes this explicit when he tells Glaucon that wagesmust always be paid to political men. in attempting to refute it. and a new kind of art. This art. in point of fact. comes to light. the man who cares for the people and devotes himself to the common good only makes the people fatter for the exploitation of the city's masters. since one must wonder who or what takes care of the artisan-ruler who is also a human being and has needs and wishes of his own. Now Thrasymachus makes it explicit that justice is bad for a man and life. then. Socrates adds that. he must be paid a wage. the wage earner does not care for the well-being of money. a practitioner of the wage-earner's art. to this It is Socrates himself who provides an answer. Reiterating this principle that a shepherd—or a ruler-by definition cares for nothing but his flock.THE REPUBLIC Thrasymachus rebels at the conclusion to which the argioment compels him. Shepherds care for their sheep in order that they may be eaten. Similarly. A man who earns a wage is. For example. he is not a selfless servant. and there is no evident principle for choosing which should be preferred. is the rubric that covers the side of a man's life concerned with his personal advantage. however. not in order to have happy sheep. for others. Rulers look on the people as shepherds do sheep: as objects of exploitation. with the former. and that there is a perpetual conflict [ 332 ] . there being no pre-established harmony between the two arts practiced by a man. The wage-earner's art is not concerned with the good of the art's object. he must provide himself with the necessities. but rather with the good of the practitioner. since the artisan gets nothing for himself from his art. he cites the way of the world. Moreover. Wage earning. It is much more reasonable for the shepherd to deceive his masters and eat the sheep himself or to make himself the master. although it is an enigmatic and ironic one. that the best way of life is the most unjust one—the tyrant's His indignation at Socrates' argument is understandable. contradicts the definition of the arts which has been the basis of the discussion. Thus a new art. every ar- tisan practices two arts—the one from which he gets his title and the wage-earner's art. there is every probability of there being conflicts between their demands. he cares for his own well-being. Why would he be willing to be a ruler? Thrasymachus is question because his own assertions unable to find an answer have bound him. After all. A shepherd who looked to the good of the sheep would not help them but would only serve the appetites of his master.

the price paid for the sei^vices of the arts is merely the reflection of the vm tutored tastes of the many or the rich. Money cannot discern the nature of each of the arts nor evaluate the contribution their products make to happiness. is a sort of architectonic principle. and what kind of men practice them. it seems to establish their value and provides the motivation for practicing them. His rhetoric is of use to him only if people desire the it Money common denominator running and are willing to pay for learning it. by means of this fabrication of an art of wage earning. who is seeking students in Athens. Socrates. as he did in the discussion with Polemarchus. the true whole. a super art is necessaiy to supplement all the arts. and it restores the unity to a mainVlife. points.Interpretive Essay between rulers. It can claim to rule all the arts for it alone tries to know the whole. The cai-penter's. bricklayer's. And the man who serves for money becomes the slave of the most authoritative voices of his own time and place. It is thus an architectonic art. Money. For they must be related to each other and to the whole of which their subject matters are a part. needing nothing beyond itself. through all the arts. Contrary to Socrates' argument that each art is complete and perfect in itself. wage earners and their interests as good The tension between the pubhc good and private good of the intheir interests as art. and plasterer's arts are not sufficient unto themselves. It accompanies all of the arts and directs their action. and live according to. He is always torn between the demands of his art and the needs of the marketplace. products of the arts determines what arts how is they are practiced. they must be guided by the architect's art. This wage-earner's art is ubiquitous. and to educate men to desire those things which most conduce to happiness. Money constitutes an artificial system which subordinates the higher to the lower. The intention of philosophy is to understand the nature of the arts and order them toward the production of hiunan happiness. dividual which Socrates had explicitly denied is admitted with this inThrasymachus. is surely a part of this system. is not quick enough to notice this and take advantage of it. Thrasymachus. or what we would call the economic troduction of the wage-earner's system. the natural hierarchy of value. to the need for a master art to supplement the other arts. however. The wage-earner's art is a kind of political substitute for philosophy. while renouncing the attempt to know. Money is manifestly an inadequate architectonic or regal principle. for in ordinary cities the for the amount of money paid are practiced. It demands total dedication to [ 333 ] . as opposed to *^he view of the whole of this time or place. and its inadequacies serve to indicate what a true architectonic art would have to be and accomplish.

and he is prevented by them from making his powerful appeal to men's lust and their respect for knowledge. Thrasymachus cannot defend his position because of his earlier assertions. tacitly admitted the necessity and legitimacy of that concern. has. And no reader can be satisfied that Thrasymachus' definition has been refuted or that this discussion has proved that there is sufficient reason to devote oneself to the common good. In the philosopher we can find both the public-spirited ruler and the satisfied man. to make justice more problematic than stronger fails.THE REPUBLIC its objects. It_isinost_unusual to attempt to deter mine the desirability of a thing whose character one does not knga^. by disregarding the laws. Only in philosophy is there an identity of the concern for the proper practice of the art and that for one's own advantage. His definition of justice as the advantage of the but only because his definition of the ruler is indefensible. Socrates' reason for this procedure is that this is what interests the other men present whose attention he fair is tiying to attract is. seekers of their As it appears to Thrasymachus. He sees this as a result of having ever. and who believe they have a sense of what justice They are not particularly in- terested in a philosophic investigation of the nature of justice.£hanges i ts theme. Instead of abandoning or attempting to improve Thrasymachus' definition of justice. whose explicit intention was to show that the practitioners of arts— and hence Thrasymachus' rulers—cannot be concerned with their own advantage. by the introduction of the wageearner's art. He has only shown that men cannot consistently at the same time be both rulers in the precise sense defined by Thrasymachus and Thus Socrates. The discussion has only served to heighten the sense of the disproportion between the private and the public good. Socrates appears to disagree. as was required of the arts. the conversation curiQiisljL. Socrates is madly insisting that a man spend his life in total dedication to others without any reason for so doing and in blind indifference to the facts of life.3. while giving ample reward to its practitioner in that it is the perfection of his nature and his greatest satisfaction. but in how they will live profitably or well. Socrates turns to the question of whether it is good or not. Without having established what justice is. All other lives are essentially self-contradictory. while hinting that philosophy is the only resolution of the conflict between art or science and self-interest. own advantage.34 ] . Thrasymachus has told them that they wi]] do so by becoming tyrants. Socrates embodies a solution to the conflicting demands which render Thrasymachus' life life meaningless: Socrates combines in a single way of the satisfactions of the lover of knowledge and the lover of gain. They want to know whether Thrasymachus' ruler I . become entangled in Socrates' dishonest arguments.

there is no competition among them. Socrates until now. in the case of a friend. an example of it has been present in the discussion and the members of the group look to that. Now. Socrates makes injustice appear to be a vice because it is contrary to wisdom. or being dedicated to the common good. as such. at one. one should keep deposits and try to get as much more as possible. Now this would only be convincing if justice were wisdom and if. The question of the goodness of justice. and Socrates makes them anxious to know why he thinks it is bad to become a tyrant. therefore. that the only problem is to define more precisely what justice is. and he Socrates who is most talented at the struggle possesses the greatest virtue. or obeying the law. the only consideration being one's own advantage. Cephalus says that. This by no means evident. is a competition. though it may be a desirable object. Thrasymachus has stated that it is bad to be just. will be the spur to their quest for the discovery of its true nature. others. and amusing chain of reasoning. and Socrates seems to be saying that it is bad to keep deposits and break faith. consider whether it is desirable for oneself or not. following Thrasymachus. he makes the whole discussion much more radical in permitting the goodness of justice and the just life to become doubtful. and. refute Thrasymachus' contention that is disadvantageous to makes three arguments. This is what draws their attention. accepting the same general rules. but only whether it will do the friend good. it To be just. or more than. At the end of a complicated. Thrasymachus says. Although justice has not been defined. along with Cephalus and Polemarchus.interpretive Essay lives a good life. the nature of which they think they know. in the sense of caring for others. Polemarchus says that one must not. Glaucon and Adeimantus who are about to enter the discussion understand quite well what Thrasymachus is telling them. the same as each other. As a matter of fact they are. he establishes that Thrasymachus holds the unconventional position that injustice is a virtue. First. meaning by injustice getting the better of. one must return it for fear of divine punishment for not doing so. does not seek to win out over other possessors of the same art. the objects of human is action could be gained without taking them away from others. Hence justice is virtue and injustice vice. That example is the deposit. in his view. The result of the [ 335 ] . in fundamental haimony. which is a virtue. Life. The just man is more like the wise man in this than is the unjust man. understood again by Socrates as the possessor of an art. that since the gods do not punish and there is no common good. Mathematicians are all seeking the same result to the same problem. has seemed to believe that one must be just. The wise man. in deciding whether to return it. as mathematicians. specious.

a lover of applause more than of truth.THE REPUBLIC argument serves to point toward a realm of noble human activity which is not essentially competitive. But he is really conventional and petty. He has no true freedom of mind. At this point it would almost seem as though Socrates were accusing Thrasymachus of being too "idealistic. but rather with the universal. discredited before an audience in his claim to wsdom. to the applause of the multitude and hence their thought. deals not with the individual. all willing to say anything. Each is forced to make some sacrifices of immediate individual advantage for the sake of long-range self-interest. for is he blushes. humiliates and punishes him. the justice of a city would be no different from that of a band of robbers. it is impossible to hold that life is simply getting more. it only shows that justice may be an unpleasant necessity in gaining them— a repulsive means to a desirable end. Socrates only succeeded in this discussion because of Thrasymachus' incapacity to make the proper distinctions and to see the problem in the analogy to the arts. In the course of the [ 336 ] . but in the character of civil society and the precariousness of human life and property there is a substantial basis for Thrasymachus' observations which he has been unable to defend. Socrates. In this sense." The latter thinks the strong that justice can simply ignore justice. It begins from a more conventional understanding of justice: obedience to common rules which enable a group to act in common. it The next argument advanced by Socrates in favor of justice is that is necessary. revealed in his vanity. Socrates proves that the acquisition of any of the goals previously praised by Thrasymachus requires at least some justice. There is nothing intrinsically more noble about the city. while Socrates teaches must be a matter of concern to him who wants to get more than others. At the sho^vn to be unjust but unwise. Surely. rather than refuting him. This is undeniably true. and. worst of all. is The apparently shameless Thrasymachus. man The cause third argument is to the effect that justice is to be desired befirst it is the health and perfection of the soul. But this argument does not suffice to convince anyone that it is possible to live well without being a sturdy competitor and reenforces the doubt about the desirability of being devoted to art or wisdom. it is an unfortunate fact of life. because he attached to prestige. but it does not prove that those goals are unattractive. He gives voice merely to common opinions which are usually kept quiet and therefore appears wiser than most men. like law. shown to end of this argument he is be an inferior rhetorician. and to show that the desire to have more for oneself is a goal which contradicts the character of art or science which.

Everyone wishes to have a healthy soul. Xenophon. Thrasymachus had somehow agreed with Socrates that is virtue. But what is virtue. brothers of Plato. Here he becomes the defender of justice. and he is shunted aside. But two important objects have been accomplished by the confrontation. but they have succeeded in defining the problem of justice. Justice is either what makes a city prosper or it is a virtue of the soul and hence necessaiy to the happiness of the individual. The two youths. [ 337 ] .) They are pot-^ntial Athenian statesmen. But what it consists in is the question. of the one is not necessarily fulfilling the commands of the other and may even be contradicting them? Thus ends the inconclusive argument with Thrasymachus. so that the man who fulfills the commands. introduce a new element into the dialogue. Socrates becomes a watch him educating those Athenian youths he was acteacher. they have not defined justice but have wandered. vi. cused of corrapting. as the virtue of the soul. this argument is purely formal and empty. is desirable in itself. whether devotion to the common good leads to the health of the soul~~oj. men whose goals transcend the horizon of sensuality and money which limited the interlocutors of the first book. it is not clear that the justice spoken of in this third argument is identical with that spoken of in the second one. The question is whether the two possibilities are identical. They are lovers of honor.whether the man with a healthy soul is devoted to the common good. their wandering has not been purposeless—they have not defined justice. as Socrates disamningly admits. The action of the Republic now becomes a formal We response to the charge made in Aristophanes' Clouds which showed Socrates leaving the scene and permitting the unjust speech to overcome the just one.Interpretive Essay justice argument. although. It therefore follows that justice. cf. indeed the whole Republic represents the triumph of the just speech. It is left to Glaucon and Adeimantus to pose this question which is the distillation of the arguments of Book I. The traditional definitions of justice have been reduced to a shambles. revealing the need for a fiesh start. Above all. In addition to its other weaknesses. III. {357a-367e) With Glaucon and Adeimantus. if not that which allows a thing to perform its work well? Nobody would want to have a sick body or a horse that could not pull its load. Memorabilia. (For another account of Socrates' relationship to Glaucon. Is the man who obeys the laws of the community for the sake of ultimate gain precisely the same man as the one who is perfecting his soul? Are there not two definitions of justice implied here that have no necessary connection. Furtheiinore.

according to Glaucon. This does not necessarily lead to the consequence that one must desire to become a tyrant. must be a comprehensive book. but rhetoric. it must also attempt to find a natural support for justice. his is a philosophic response to a philosophic challenge. for it is possible to care for things which cannot be procured by political life. frees them from the goals which rendered Thrasymachus' notion of advantage so ciude and narrow. And if what Thrasymachus teaches is the truth. for they are phantasms. most men do care for the political life or things which can best be procured by it. too. Devotion to justice or the opposite is not simply a question of decency or corruption but one of the truth of things. if they exist at is no cosmic support have no care for men. merely human convention and hence a matter of indifference to those who wish to live according to nature. then. all of which. the character of justice depends on the character of nature as a whole. The Repiihlic defends Socrates against this accusation: here he is shown to be the protector of justice against a rhetorician. then. one's way. politics is not the laws or justice. This response cannot merely be an exhortation to the practice of justice. beginning with justice.THE REPUBLIC which lends nobihty to their souls. This teaching is the application to politics of what has come to be known as pre-Socratic philosophy. It may be recalled that Socrates was accused of being a proponent of this pre-Socratic philosophy so inimical to the city's interest and a teacher of rhetoric. The study of justice therefore leads to the study of nature. Hence the Republic. that the gods. In being forced to defend justice. This laws. the means of getting At best. at worst deiiu>s. and therefore it. [ 338 1 . Of course. he does not simply defend the justice of the ancestral laws of the city. the study of nature apits parently leads to indifference to the city and to tyranny. in general. But. it leads was the suspicion of the Athenian and it may very well be the case. is subversive of the ancestral. They teach that the proper study of led the earlier philosophers to believe that there all. Justice is. Innocence once forced to enter forbidden realms and to lost cannot be regained. the city in self-defense must suppress that truth. Sophand rhetoricians extract the political significance from the ists philosophers' knowledge of nature. The results of the study of nature for justice. philosophy. They have often heard the arguments of rhetoricians and sophists. Socrates is expound novel substitute is conceits. the philosophizing in the fullest sense. for example. and gives them the spiritual substance required for the sublimating experience of Socratic education. propound the thesis of Thrasymachus.

he does not have to sell a teaching about justice as did Thrasymachus. The contradiction between the public teaching of injustice and the public necessity for the profession of justice was inherent in Thrasymachus' situation. The confrontation with Thrain a sense carried on for Glaucon's benefit. and in. The daring and manly Glaucon has seen that Socrates has at best shown only the necessity of justice and not its desirability. Socrates' success at perplexing and attracting Glaucon was seen when Glaucon could not restrain himself from intenupting to express his wonder at Socrates' assertion that punishment is a fonm of wage for njlers. Both Socrates and Thrasymachus. posing the probmost radical form. Socrates controlled the discussion from the outset in such a lem of justice symachus was as to involve them while. teachable. and Glaucon's [ 339 ] . He presents his motivation as a desire to see justice vindicated. Somehow temptations which political usually resisted at the command what he represents that his rhetoric is is stronger. Socrates' paradoxical argument touches something in them. This is the beginning of an education that will lead them very far from anything they have ever known. More urbane than Thrasymachus. Glaucon and Adeimantus are powerfully drawn to excel in the most honored pursuits. he arouses their curiosity by showing more powerful and by appealing to their nobility and love of justice. They are ready to become Thrasymachus' students since reason and passion combine to support him. his appeal to Glaucon and Adeimantus stems from a kind of rhetoric which succeeded in silencing the master rhetorician Thrasymachus without truly refuting him. temptations which are of law and shame. That is to say they are drawn to politics. those in which they can most benefit both others and themselves. Among the best of the youth. he recognizes the power of the reputation of justice. In effect. and ambitious. are interested in these two men—young. Therefore he does not himself praise injustice but puts the argument on its behalf in the mouth of others. they will have to overcome Socrates. And Thrasymachus offers them the means of success. but the end of which follows inevitably from the concerns with which they began. for it simplifies them a reasoned life ground for giving way to those I I always presents. But Socrates proves to be the superior speaker. This things and gives is an attractive teaching.Interpretive Essay Although Socrates is not depicted as a practitioner of rhetoric. Thrasymachus tells them that in their pursuit of glory they need not be hampered by in its way considerations of justice. Before they can turn to Thrasymachus. both by the tools of persuasion he can provide and by the liberating insight into the nature of political life on which his teaching is based. Of course. for their various reasons.

like Thrasymachus. and of his art in particular. justice has any relation to justice. etc. Glaucon asks whether convention. background invisible to draws the conclusion that if a man could be would be no reason for him to be just in his pursuit of the good. Glaucon. he able never- theless to satisfy his curiosity about the goodness of justice. who. who assumes this philosophic in -his speech. what men usually hold to be good to look for a standard independent of civil society which might divorce him from it. in other words. the city. Bound by its ancestral laws and myths. The first effort of philosophy or science was to sort out the various elements in our experience. the ways of its view the same.THE REPUBLIC situation does not involve him in it. eclipses. he tells the story of Gyges.. to deny that eclipses are signs from the is merely human and is only punished seen by human beings. to accomplish whatever one wants that he does not feel compelled to look for the permanent limits and ends which cannot be altered by art. Recalling to our minds Thrasymachus' shepherd. the shepherd. It wishes to give the accidents of this time and place the same status as the unchanging principles of all things. The consequence of this investigation the naturalness of the city. In this perspective. At all events. The latter is perhaps too concerned with. It had to liberate it- from the weight of respectable opinion and to become aware of the existence of rationally comprehensible principles of the phenomena seen in the heavens. He profits from the lesson of Thrais symachus' discomfiture. His very mode of presenting his discourse justice first is a model of the hypocritical use of public professions of justice. to deny that was to deny the lightning which strikes the man if gods. with his ring that made him invisible. It presents a certain combination of nature and convention act. as the horizon within w^hich its citizens must live and The cosmic phenomena same divine will are interpreted by the city as expressions of the the heavens and those of city are in which supports its laws. to discover the true cause of lightning. and is is good by nature or only by law or thus the participant in the dialogue nature as his standard. deposed his master and exploited his master's human beings. hiding his personal doubts. And he also is so convinced of the power of art. it is Glaucon who goes to the roots by elaborating—though in the name of others—a teaching about nature which denies that man's nature is essentially political. by means self of investigation unhampered by authority. He is a daring who turns to man whose desire not to be hood- winked by common opinions about the good gives him a certain intellectual force lacked by Thrasymachus. does not raise the question of nature. and dependent on. in fact it hinders the question from arising. nature had to be discovered against the will of the city. there [ 340 ] .

and for him to obey the laws would serve the advantage of the conventionally. by its beginning and not its end. But. the nature of a thing. then. constitutes no more than a human construction. be understood by that from which it comes. following the contract. but one need never take it seriously for itself. Glaucon presents the political supplement to pre-Socratic natural philosophy: the city limits men in the pursuit of the good things. In other words. able men who have the arts offeree and deception can. unadorned will. it is better to compromise. but its only justification for doing so is the need to preserve itself. this pursuit must be carried on at the expense of others. from either standpoint. According to Glaucon. to avoid injuring other men. and it is bad to have things taken which belong to oneself. it is simply a recognition of the imprudence of doing so. however. For those who cannot succeed at taking without also being taken from. giving up the one and gaining immunity from the other. Nature dictates the pursuit of one's own good. It does not overcome nature. stronger but of the naturally weaker. There is a naturally strong man. and in all reason should. And. It is good to take from others what belongs to them. a contract. but he does not want to be duped. He honestly wishes to be convinced that justice is best. by means of Thrasymachus' rhetoric. There is. justice is the simple. is to or politically. superior men are not bound by the contract for they do not receive any advantage from it.Interpretive Essay men can make ji ^ animal and human. Glaucon implicitly accuses him of holding a conventional view of the stronger. Since the city's justice does not make men good or happy. Glaucon challenges Socrates with the problem at its most extreme. their acts change appearance. Thrasymachus had said that the laws were made for the advantage of the stronger. which still impels a man to get what he wants without considering the contract. no particular knowledge or ability implied in being just. for above all he seeks what is good for himself and does not care to be taken in by edifying preaching which will cause him to miss the enjoyment of the objects of his desires. the law-abiding man is an innocent. He must know. continue to follow the dictates of nature. and Glaucon adopts [ 341 ] . meaning by "the stronger" whatever party happens to hold power. it is merely the performance of a difficult task that goes against the grain of one's desires. Such a compromise. In this perspective. whether this means obeying the laws set down to this end or equitably correcting the law so as to fulfill its intention. but because of the scarcity of good things. which is tantamount to making them invisible. the character of justice can be discovered in flocks. but the badness of the latter exceeds the goodness of the former. One should be indifferent to the city or use it for one's own purposes. its origin. in his view.

as Glaucon paid attention to state his problem. Thus Adeimantus. and this one is not adequate to make it choiceworthy. wishes to hear a new and adequate praise of justice. skilled server of his own interest is miserable because he lacks justice. It is not justice but the reputation for justice which gets these rewards. that just acts are not pleasant or good. It may be improper to question the tradition. what he saw. the laws. and unjust men can win the favor of the gods. We live within a horizon constructed by the poets. There is no other available account of the sanctions of justice. He is par- superiority of injustice. racked. Everything that is known about men's duties comes from the poetic tradition. Adeimantus turns to opinion. as Glaucon turned to nature. The accounts of gods and men contained in the classic poems support this conclusion. jn which case nature. its internal contradictions lead to the same conclusion as that of both Thrasymachus and Glaucon. his brother enters the scene to Although the two speeches seem supplementary. and those rewards consist in certain pleasures which can be enjoyed by men who are unjust. And it is this understanding of justice that Glaucon asks Socrates to defend. to what he hears. Socrates is commanded to prove that selfless dedication is rewarded by nature. Adeimantus pays attention ticularly addicted to poetry. that justice is the one thing most needful. He Although justice is praised. teaches the same thing. Either the tales are true. chained. but. who spends his old age using his money to placate the gods' possible wrath at his earlier unjust deeds. is most representative of this human condition. the only substitute for them.THE REPUBLIC Thrasymachus' notion of the just man as the simple. that there are substitutes for justice. and all in effect agree that justice itself does not produce happiness. Adeimantus is moderate. some just men are unhappy. but is does not make an argument for the perplexed by what he hears about justice. and one should seem rather than he just. Socrates must show that the man who is whipped. they are really quite different and set conflicting tasks for Socrates. Cephalus. After Glaucon completes his exposition of the nature of justice and makes his demands for its defense. a horizon bounded by the presence of the gods. Just as the latter desired an argument for pure and earnest dedica- [ 342 ] . but what he asks for is different from what his brother asked for. while the prudent. it is not praised for itself but for its rewards. or they are not true. once questioned. and has his eyes burned out because men believe him to be unjust will be blessedly happy if only he possesses justice. According to these poems. too. honest server of other men's interest. courageous. As Glaucon was daring. and parental training.

he invites them to share an adventure with him. with attaining the his training in rhetoric. If it is so unpleasant. in these conditions only a man whose divine nature renders injustice distasteful to him. the founding of a city. Socrates outdoes Thrasymachus and offers reflection. The founders of a city are more powerful and more revered than are its tyrants. Adeimantus longs for justice itbe like or to be an adequate substitute for these honors and pleasures. Socrates succeeds with them because he begins by giving them at least part of what they want.Interpretive Essay Hon. Socrates takes Glaucon and Adeimantus to the limits of politics. But he recognizes that piety forbids him to abandon justice under attack. All succeeding generations honor them. are animated by a diflferent passion: it that they love so much. It should in itself incorporate the advantages conventionally said to result from its practice. although they are not indifferent to the desires ticularly which moved the other speakers. Socrates thus engages their desire for glory. We have learned that justice is a political question: can there be a regime whose laws are such as to serve the common good while object he proposes. would resist the opportunity to do injustice. Socrates must show^ that justice satisfies even the man who loses everything for it. Justice is always said to be hard. or one who has knowledge. Thrasymachus had tyranny. At the conclusion of the unjust arguments of Glaucon and Adeinext. and paris Glaucon. and it is at the limits that one can see both the nature and the problems of politics. they. and that his happiness is akin to the sensations of the man immersed in the pleasures of the senses. In order to be convincing to both Glaucon and Adeimantus. more attractive food for Thrasymachus. so Adeimantus now reveals his deepest wishes by insisting that justice be easy and pleasant. The poets promise just men great honors and sensual pleasures in this life and the Without making it quite -explicit. they have none of the obloquy attached to the tyrant. life [ 343 ] . However. substitute for that. also offers the means of and Socrates has no But the very attractiveness of 'the goal proposed causes them to neglect its impracticality. Rather than criticize their arguments or present a counter argument of his own. and there are ways to get around its necessity. he does not respond directly to the questions of his young companions. allowing each of its members to reach his natural perfection? If not. why be just? As he says. Socrates inflames their imagination with even grander dreams. Under pressure from the entire group he agrees to defend justice. self to mantus. Socrates professes his incapacity to succeed at a task of the magnitude of the one imposed on him. the highest position in not money them oflfered the city. They are to join together in the greatest and most revealing of political acts. but honor.

accepts Glaucon's view that things will be eternally torn between duty to the city can be understood by their origins. and the arts. Men join together because they are incomplete. and there is no need of an organizing principle other than that provided by money. The city is really the perfect community of artisans envisaged in the discussion with Thrasymachus. Socrates. The very coming to awareness of such a city and soul transforms and educates these young men. there is an immediate identity between selfish interest and the common good. Here money simply facilitates exchange so that every artisan. That development would be the result of inflamed desires. tributes according to his ability Each con- and receives according to his needs. In such a city. There is no separate wage-earner's art. The decision to look for justice in a city first.THE REPUBLIC and duty to oneself. . because they cannot provide for their needs themselves. for each man devotes himself exclusively to his own art. his own good resulting from that dedication. without the help of Glaucon. which represents the needs of the body. In pretending that they are founders. It is an easy place: there is no scarcity. The invention of money makes this possible. with the cooperation of nature. momentarily at least. They are about to watch justice coming into being in order to see if Glaucon's account was correct. In this city it is not of value in itself and is not pursued as an end in itself. Thus it reflects the tastes of Adeimantus. As long as is no scarcity they will be peacefol. will have access to the products of the other arts. and justice takes care of itself. It sets the various arts and ar- [ 344 ] . for each art by itself produces the equivalent of money. the satisfaction of their desires is identical with the concern for justice. In this case at least. Their intention is not to have more than others but to have enough for themselves. Glaucon and Adeimantus at once discover that they must care for justice. Each man chooses an art according to his natural capacities so that nothing in life there goes against the grain of the inhabitants' desires or talents. Hence there is no need for men to be governed. On the answer to this question depends the answer to the question whether it is advantageous for a man to devote himself to the city. and the consequent distinction between justice in a city and justice in an individual man. as a result of practicing his own art. We must first discover what a healthy city is and what a healthy soul is. (369]?-372e) The first city is constructed by Socrates and Adeimantus. produce enough to content them. keep constantly before us the question whether the justice which makes a city healthy is the same as that which makes a man healthy.

But it is precisely this freedom from law and convention combined with his passion that may enable him to climb to the human peaks. Glaucon has a potential for good or evil. one who lusts to have as his own all things which appear beautiful and good. as long as his limitless desires have as their objects the things he lists as desirable in his speech. to use Socratic language. His desires lead him to despise law and convention. and his daring is in the service of those desires. Critias and Alcibiades were [ 345 ] . The conduct of his companions Critias and Alcibiades. A natural him. satisfaction only in contemplation if fully developed. Actually his desire to rule the expression of an inits dependently noble impulse which. he will long for tyranny. Socrates looks on them with more favor than does Rousseau. distinct and divergent demands of the two. would find to and would wish overcome the opinions about body's desires in order to enjoy its own peculiar pleasure undisturbed. pursues the same goals as do men in conventional societies but without the restraints those societies always impose on their soul and of the for members. Although the entrance of these deconnected with the soul serves to corrupt this first city. His view of nature is actually a sires conventional one. what is both subverters of the Athenian democratic regime. Glaucon is thus a dangerous man but also an eminently interesting and educable one. caused Socrates to be suspected as a corrupter of the youth. His desires are inchoate expressions of his inclination to a fulfillment of which he is as yet unaware.Interpretive Essay tisans in motion in the service of satisfying those needs. he admits Glaucon's dissatisfaction as a legitimate objection to this city. This is a city which takes the bodily needs as the only real ones. By means of the example of this city. suggests that the bodily desires are very simple and easy to satisfy. The more complicated desires. Socrates. ignorant of the distinction between the body and the man. He takes ruling to certain things be merely a means to the acquisition of which most men believe to be good and which all serve is the body's desires. are the result of a mixture of the desires of the body with the desires of the soul. for they are the first manifestations of a longing for a natural perfection higher than that of the body. Glaucon is a man of intense desires. His passionate nature has been tutored by the common good and by the materialist philosophy of which he has heard. in opposition to Glaucon. As is the case with all the young men most attractive to Socrates. an erotic man. He is. the ones that cause the injustice of which Glaucon has spoken. In this he is not unlike Rousseau in his opposition to Hobbes. and whatever efforts of the soul and intelligence it calls into play are entirely directed to the preservation and comfort of the body.

only for keeping men alive and healthy. if it is to be well governed. he looks on the bill of fare with the eye of a hungry man who has a delicate palate and imagines how he would like to satisfy his hunger. with Glaucon's characterization of it as a city of sows. Glaucon. devoted to the satisfaction of the simplest desires. This city is also undesirable. His manliness always leads him to make a direct assault on the good as he sees it. as will soon be- come clear. A philosopher's bodily needs must be minimal and his soul must be daring. we have the opportunity of Socrates educates and his effect on the young. in it food is only nourishment. Rather. Glaucon cannot endure his brother's satisfaction with what he calls a city of sows and causes a new and luxurious city to be founded. a belief to which Adeimantus would like to subscribe. with his manly intransigence. by this assertion. he implies that the city really exists to serve the body and that this city. and it must possess some men who are willing to risk their lives in its defense. both of which are judicious blendings of moderation and courage or manliness. Merely to live and be healthy is the way of sows. The emergence of other forms of desire complicates the city is and brings misery to it. but in agreement. He unfull dertakes a perilous activity but one of promise. Perhaps Socrates' assertion that it is the true city is not in contradiction. Hu- [ 346 ] . At the first mention of eating. Adeimantus is made a paii of his brother's education. makes the most important contribution of the two interlocutors. He finds the simple city does not meet his gastronomic standards. he gives the conversation its power and its height. But Adeimantus purges that luxurious city and makes it possible for its better potential to be realized. These are the simplest senses of moderation and courage and the role they play in a city and a philosopher. Glaucon rejects the first city because it does not appeal to his taste: he does not like the food. in a "hidden hand" which haiTnonizes private and public interest. The fact that Socrates says that it is the true city does not mean that he thinks it could come into being or that he would wish it to do so. seeing how With Glaucon. requires citizens whose desires are not too great and are well controlled. A city. sei^ves the body best. and he is What he represents is also necessary to the founding of the just city as well as to the philosophic life.THE REPUBLIC liberated but not educated. It depends on an unfounded belief in nature's providential generosity. He has been promised a dinner which seems to have been postponed indefinitely. much more moderate than Glaucon. the condition of the growth of more perfect human But that corruption beings. This first city is obviously impossible.

but in the revolt against the simple city he and Socrates are really allies. unproductive man would starve to death. which will aid him in sublimating his hunger.Interpretive Essay man city. but because the intensity of his joy in philosophy makes him indifferent to them. This is an apparent impossibility. His first long speech is another example of this tendency: while asserting the naturalness of perfect self-indulgence. He has no wealth and no honor. in order to satisfy himself he would have to discover a way of life which combined both great eroticism and great moderation. Glaucon finds no satisfaction in it. not because life is possibility of [ 347 ] . To be sure." in whatever direction he turns. and there could be no Socrates living there. Finally he is executed for his insisting indulgence. He fulfills such a way of life he will be ctued of his desire for tyranny. He does not live without the ordinary pleasures because he is an ascetic. for only then can virtue arise. he is not yet conscious of the nature of his own desires. ments and pleasures. but he has before his eyes a man who has actually succeeded in making such a combination of opposites. to injure others or take what belongs to them. Once Glaucon can see the very life. In order to satisfy his eras. He is getting an unwilling lesson in austerity. he need not compete with other men to their detriment. beings require more than life. in fact he is despised and believed to be unjust. for he always mistakes all of his great longings for bodily desires but cannot find satisfaction for them thus understood. but his eros does not lead him. and Glaucon need only recognize him for what he is to solve his dilemma concerning the best way of life. he was at the same time on a notion of justice which is the direct opposite of selfHe is an "idealist. already he has somehow divined the presence of such a way of life in Socrates. justice. His wishes are always contradictory. or of desire in general. Humanity requires a self-overcoming. Yet he is happy. but also lives in great pleasure. according to his own account. Socrates. but this will not cause him to regret his choice of way of the harsh conditions Glaucon set for the just man. Desire causes demand unnecessary refinehim to sharpen his demands on the they it is He may think his will is only bodily hunger. both because it is not advanced enough to give him the basis for a philosophic understanding and because such an idle. He admires both the man who is perfectly self-indulgent and the one who is perfectly abstinent. is an erotic man. Perhaps the objections of the two men are ultimately the same: the solution to the political problem embodied in this city is not a human one. as it did Cephalus. but a spiritual hunger which cause him to transcend this city and lead him toward another kind of fulfillment. A human solution requires the emancipation of desire.

its justification can only be in the quality of life it provides for its citizens. who rush to the defense of their city and of justice. therefore. but Glaucon in observing a one they had just been observing. It would appear from this presentation that war is requisite to the emergence of humanity.THE REPUBLIC because man's dual nature is such that the goods of the soul cannot be brought to light without the body's being tempted and. who are capable of anger. thirst. but it needs itedness. as opposed to the healthy desire. and its character can only be seen by contrasting it with (372e-376c) Socrates agrees to join feverish city. but they are really the first ruling class and introduce the first principle of first [ 348 ] . Its simplest manifestation is anger. Paradoxically this is the first human city. No serious attempt is even made to look for justice in the healthy city. Here there emerges a new class of men devoted to the art of war. Spiritedness seems characterized more by the fact that it overcomes desire than by any positive goal of its own. Not everyone can have a city which is sufficient to support a life of satisfaction. Since luxury creates scarcity. The city may exist for the sake of life. It may indeed aid in the preservation of life. who must make war and be warriors. Moreover. as the city of sows was gentle and reflected a fundamental harmony among men. One would think that they would do this only as a study in pathology. Actually. The goal of spiritedness is much harder to discern. The new city founded by Glaucon's desire begins with an act of injustice. the healthy city is forgotten and the good city is constituted by a reform of the feverish city rather than by a return to the healthy one. the city proper is formed. spiritedness. keeping the healthy model constantly before their eyes. without a tyranny of soul over body. etc. and in their souls emerges a new principle. Desires are directed to the satisfaction of a need: they express an incompleteness and yearn for completeness. land must be taken from others. that is.. but it can just as well place honor above life. so the city of warriors is harsh and reflects a fundamental conflict among men. is characterized by an indifference to life. sexual desire. the band of brothers who have enemies. the desires related to the body—which are the only ones that have appeared thus far—all have a self-preservative function. It cannot claim that it does not harm other men. The wamors must be men who like to fight. and it is not immediately manifest what needs are fulfilled by anger. it. whereas spir- on the contrary. Hunger. are all immediately related to a goal and their meaning is simple. the warriors look like the practitioners of just art. essentially struggle. men who At another are willing to die for sight. to be set alongside the arts of shoemaking and farming. Spiritedness is a difficult motive to understand. Hence.

Spiritedness is beyond the economic system. the city needs defenders. The would apply in this case too. The founders of modern economic science. they are strong. from the decisive point of view they are the same—mere life is their goal. To understand the dignity of this element in the soul and in the city requires the discovery of a third and highest and the end of which is as clear as that earning class. However that and soul may be. Sheep dogs require shepherds. just as it is in the nature of soldiers to be in the service of something. their practitioners are all included together in what will be called the wage-earning class." Now them is there are two classes in the city. however diverse in skill or product. all serve bodily satisfaction and are practiced for money. by spiritedness. like the qualities seems to be which made a man a farm- er or a blacksmith. This class could be understood as a servant of the wageearning class. their purposes come from outside of themselves. This necessity for a third class is implied in the description of the warriors as noble dogs who guard a flock. It seems that it is in the nature of spiritedness to be in the service of something. In every there is one group that has the [ 349 ] . The warriors' art. who wanted it to be a universal political science. but which new part of the soul. The various arts present in the first city. Similarly. for its and lowest class. The warrior class would then be the link between the highest spiritedness serves which of the wageclass meaning from its service to the higher.Interpretive Essay hierarchy into the city. Neither spiritedness nor the class which embodies it can be ends in themselves. gaining its parallel of city feverish desires It is make living together impossible without control. however. The latter has liberated itself from the single-minded concern for mere life. spiritedness at first sight just another quality of soul. is really different. But the purposes of this class are not as yet clear. Only men who pursue seF-preservation and the gratification of bodily desire can be counted on to act according to the principles of economic "rationality. for civil society. but this would mean that the superior exists for the sake a purely natural one: one class the other of the inferior. it really represents a will rule the desires Ultimately they are the same. inevitable that the spirited warriors will rule in this city. They do not represent any fundamental diversity of principle. The former can be counted on to pursue what we would call the economic goals. for money is a standard for evaluating the contributions made toward the satisfaction of desire or the preservation of life. and its services cannot be measured by money. could do so only by denying the existence of spiritedness or understanding it as merely a means to self-presei-vation. although there are many differences among its members in activity and intelligence. and the distinction between is motivated by bodily desire. one and establish a principle of hierarchy in the soul. and it also now needs rulers.

the way of philosophy. The instrument The city's for controlling the warriors is education and. The members of this class do not necessarily possess wisdom or any other element of virtue. But the philosophers are the opposites of the dogs inasmuch as they are always questing to know that of which they are ignorant. Socrates most surprisingly draws the conclusion that the good guardian is possible if. The love of knowledge is a motive necessary to the rulers of this city in order to temper their love of victory and wealth. from of the Republic. the city's way of life will be detennined by it. but they quickly become aware of its problematic character. What in their nature will permit them to be gentle to their charges? Gentleness and harshness seem very like contrary characteristics. In a book famous for the proposal that philosophers be kings. his nature is philosophic. of course. and thus philosophy is the principle of gentleness. on second thought.THE REPUBLIC and it can and always does set down the laws in the tenms suitable to it. This identification of dog-like affection for acquaintances with philosophy is. this point forward education is the central theme way of life depends on the character and hence the education of the rulers. in addition to being spirited. he says. This is what Thrasymachus meant when he said that justice is the advantage of the stronger. not serious. What is to prevent these men who are so savage to foreigners from being savage with their fellow citizens? Although they are supposed to guard the flock. therefore. this is the first mention of philosophy or philosophers. it is this crucial class they must control and train. and good guardians thus appear to be impossible. They need not preoccupy themselves with the wage-earning class. The philosophers are gentle men because they pursue knowledge and not gain. Whatever the character of this class. They love their own and not [ 350 ] . If Socrates and his companions wish to establish a good regime without having to compromise with mere power. But Socrates. the warriors. Socrates and Glaucon have established this class of spirited warriors to protect the city from its enemies. they are likely to exploit it. for it will be unable to resist the commands of greatest strength. It only serves to prepare the way for the true emergence of philosophy in Book V and to heighten the difference between philosopher and warrior. their object does not entail exploitation of others. Philosophy is invoked in the city only for the purpose of solving a political problem. whereas the dogs must cut themselves off from the unknown and are hostile to foreign charms. Judging friends and enemies by the criterion of knowledge and ignorance is. recognizes that the animals to whom they compared the guardians do combine gentleness and harshness: dogs are gentle to those they know and harsh to those they do not know.

although they may partake of a common human nature. who love those who mistreat No mention is made of the fact that whom the flock belongs and dogs do not characteristically love the flocks but the masters to who teach them and command them to care for the flock. It is true that their love of the known extends their affections beyond themselves city. it partakes of the universalizing or cosphilosophy. Socrates focuses on the contents of poems. just as the man who admires Achilles is different from who admires Moses or Jesus. If poetry is so powerful. so little do they agree about what is important in life.Interpretive Essay the good. thereby implying that the other elements of poetry are only accessories used for the puipose of better conveying a theme or a teaching. (376c-383c) After Socrates and Glaucon have established the necessity of a nature warriors. they fonn the various kinds of men. The poets are taken most seriously as the makers of the horizon which constitutes the limit of men's desire and aspiration. for otherwise they would not make the necessary distinction between their flock and those tack it. and he and Socrates begin the education of that nature. who are likely to atto ene- The warrior principle is doing good to friends and harm mies. one would have expected that their education would be in the art of bearing arms—but this is not even mentioned. The entire discussion concerns the character of their for the combining spiritedness and gentleness and largely deals with the effects of music—the lovely domain of the Muses in which men charm their passions when at peace. most immediately directed to Adeimantus and the teaching he drew from poetry in his speech in favor of injustice. But that love ends at the frontier of the mopolitan effect of They remain the as well as those irrational beasts them who are kind to them. they Biblical the one hardly seem to be of the same species. character must be a primary concern of the legislator. philosophers and knowers. to the city. On the basis of the "reformed poetry. incomplete. Adeimantus takes his brother's place in the discussion. These dogs as yet have no masters and are therefore The masters whom they will know and hence love are The dogs' nature opens them to the command of philosophy but does not make them philosophers. Everything in the city stems from the beliefs of those its who hold power and of poetry are respected in it. Men's views about the highest beings and their choice of souls heroes are decisive for the tone of their lives. He who believes in the Olympian gods is a very different man from the one who believes in the God. Adeimantus could not is " The reform [ 351 ] . who make nations various. The different men see very different things in the world and. they develop very different aspects of that nature. On the basis of the description of the warriors' function. And this must be so.

but it is manifest that in such a world nobility and justice have no cosmic support. and they do not deceive. Certainly Cephalus' piety. Justice cannot be treated here. Nothing is said about the nature of the gods' relations with men or whether they care for men at all. low can win over high. A closer look at Socrates' prescriptions for the representations of all the gods shows that they are not. Socrates says. and the universe is fundamentally a cosmos. The gods do not give evil lots to good men. in this light. or good ones to bad men. is not. In the new theology the higher is not derived from the lower. and that would be essential to such a discussion! The beliefs about the gods and the poetic depiction of them are the first topic Socrates and Adeimantus undertake. and justice—three of the four cardinal virtues defined in the Republic—are each mentioned in the context of the critique of poetry. Those earlier views are not proved false here. the gods themselves are battlefield of contrary to [ . courage. a theology not true but salutary. Just men and just deeds are the only ones celebrated. in particular. in his view. and the noble things can be in conflict with the necessary ones and with each other. their beliefs about the gods. justice is good or not. is divided according to the most important have on men's beliefs.THE REPUBLIC have come to his conclusions. There is nothing in the poetic universe which would make men think that injustice profits meri or gods. nor can they be moved by prayer. The first segment of the study of poetry The critique of poetry effects its representations constitutes. Courage. therefore. because they have not yet decided whethei. based on appeals to the gods for leniency. are subordinated to rational principle. and the good is first. a theology. Similarly. highly questionable. there is no assurance that these are the Olympian gods or that they have anything in common with what Adeimantus understands a god to be. It would seem necessary to infer that the warriors are not to be wise and that the beliefs about the gods are their substitute for wisdom. they are the cause of the good. Its doctrines are simple: the gods are good. and moderation. powerful and that they They must be good and can only cause good. becomes. chaos is not the origin of all things. as the poets represent it be in their terrible tales of the family lives and wars of the gods. wisdom. Those beliefs about the gods are a nonphilosophic equivalent of knowledge of the whole. not a and discordant elements. Similarly. the deeper teaching implied here is that the good is the highest and most powerful principle of the cosmos. but the fourth. moderation. As opposed to the earlier views of the first things which the poets express. It is not even clear that it is sensible to pray to such gods.352 ] .

the virtue governing and perfecting spiritedness.Interpretive Essay not representatives of becoming as opposed to being. he simply says such things must not be said. Men cannot live like the gods. while loving the city and justice. they are the most unchanging. of all things. Strangely. as he did with the gods. and. The gods are a prefiguration of the ideas which are known to the philosophers. hence the gods are not rulers. This means that the proper opinions about the gods will cause the warriors to be both pious and just in the common meanings of these terms. That gods never lie would seem to imply that they have nothing to do with men and are not their friends. The man who believes in these gods. although the dominance of the good in the cosmos at large is reassuring for the human estate. will the warriors men who honor the gods and ancestors and who are serious about their friendship with one another. This ter- [ 353 ] . Later we are told that rulers must lie. so consequence that in the future the poetic depictions of the gods cannot serve as models for human conduct. and Socrates asserts that men who believe it cannot be courageous. A alus it further important consequence of the discussion about the gods follows from the fact that the gods do not lie. The existence of some Hades is repulsive kind of gods seems less questionable than the existence of an afterlife. the home of the dead. and rulers cannot imitate the virtues of gods. but also men like Cephalus. it does not perfect it. Primacy is given to rest and eternity over motion and time. The world in which men live contains evil as well as good. whose place is usually held to be in the heavens. Socrates says. Socrates insists only that death should not be frightening. He does not. to the make {386a-392c) These beliefs about the gods. Here Socrates' critique is completely negative. This reform of the poetic account of the gods leads not repaying debts. but on beliefs about Hades. will not hate and consider impious the philosopher who teaches the ideas. In the discussion with Ceph- was indicated that just as human justice sometimes requires it sometimes requires not telling the truth. Homer's description of and frightening. Next comes courage. Statesmen require a human prudence in which the gods can give them no guidance. He does not even say that Hades exists or that there is any life after death. without paying any attention to the salutary effect such fear might have. it is not only the warriors who are liberated from their terrors about a life to come. they are not moved by the desires of the body which are the sign of weakness and change and dependence. which is generally thought to be beneath the earth. tell what must be said. Apparently. It does not depend so much on beliefs about the gods.

onp which does not force them to turn away from this life and to be hostile to reason. His true intention comes to light in the seven is quotations from Homer. he cites at the beginning of this part of the discussion. But it also made him unable to participate in this discussion. But in so doing he seems to destroy the virror caused tue of courage. however. With his analysis of Achilles.THE REPUBLIC Cephalus to try to live justly in his old age. One of his principal goals to put himself in the place of Achilles as the authentic representation of the best human type. Socrates that Hades was a dreadful place. It would not require the overcoming of fear. If there nothing terrible in death. In the Apology. so indeed do most of the Homeric passages cited in what remains of the discussion of poetry. He is the hero of heroes. admired and imitated by all. And this is what Socrates wishes to combat. The surface presentation of spiritedness and spirited men in the Republic is that they are easily educable and can become the foundation of the good city. Socrates' intention is not. Socrates is engaging in a contest with Homer for the less directly title is of teacher of the Greeks—or of mankind. Socrates iden- himself with Achilles. to turn the warriors into dependable automatons. given their understanding of death. rates cannot seriously mean a that the Homer tifies necessarily makes man It is able to be courageous. men will not pursue philosophy. although he believed to recognize that they are polar opposites. Socrates brings Achilles to the foreground in order to analyze his character and ultimately to do away with him as the model for the young. Socrates wishes to expunge all of these disagreeable stories about Hades from the literature. concerning Hades. Now. that what he stands for is inimical to the founding of the best city and the practice of the best way of life. Socrates is looking for another way to make men love justice. Socview of Hades presented by a coward. then the sacrifice of life is not particularly praiseworthy. What he not for a failure of courage that Socobjects to is the price such men. Socrates is actually beginning a critique of the courage based on spiritedness which is thus also a critique of the warrior class of his city. The figure of Achilles. All but the central one have to do more or with Achilles. more than any teaching or law. it is perfectly obvious that Achilles. must pay in order to face it. But berieath that surface runs a current which [ 354 . reproaching the heroes. he teaches that if Achilles is the model. This is a necessary presupposition of the good city. compels the souls of Greeks and all men who pursue glory. where he still was most forcefully rates is states his superiority to the fear of death. One need only look at their physical descriptions is attempting to work a fantastic transformation of men's tastes in making the ugly old man more attractive than the fair youth.

The tendency of anger is to give the color of reason and morality to selfishness. Anger nature of blame. And this is a key to the nature of spiritedness: it is very much connected with the defense of one's own. for it is unwilling to admit anything that calls into question the rightness of its cause. Anger may be educated to become a very generous passion. it attributes responsibility to what injures. he admits that it is better to be a slave on earth than a king in Hades. the maid Briseis. but no matter what the substance of the charges of injustice it makes. Patroclus. it is somehow connected with preserving those things which make life possible. Spiritedness is the only element in the city or man which by its very nature is hostile to philosophy. Anger is always self-righteous. for it forces the requires something or to someone [ 355 ] . it is always accompanied by the conviction that it is just. he must overcome his reason in order to be a hero. This is particularly true in the case of Achilles whose anger is aroused by Agamemnon's taking away his prize of war. He is an enemy of reason. The alternatives as he sees them are either a reasonable but ignoble attachment to life or a noble but unreasonable willingness to die. but it may also oppose reason. It is difficult for a man to be angry when he is convinced that what is taken from him does not belong to him or that his losses or sufferings are his own fault. but in so doing it exacts a high price. Thrasymachus' anger defends the city's own against philosophy when philosophy threatens the city's injustice. it is unreasoning and can easily mistake its sense of injustice for the fact of injustice. arousing itself at the sight of whatever appears to be injustice. for. it is in the human anger to seek for justification. This has been revealed by the only character in the dialogue who has expressed anger. although necessary. In order to overcome fear of death. For him to be heroic is literally unreasonable. Spiritedness first appeared in the city as the means to protect its stolen acquisitions. Although anger causes men to be willing to sacrifice life.Interpretive Essay shows that spiritedness is a most problematic element of the soul and the city. it is at the root of moral indignation. and that the good city is hence most improbable. we see that anger is particularly directed toward punishment of those who take away one's own. Anger permits him to conquer the fear of terrible things. although the hero loves honor. If we take Achilles as the model of the spirited man. but moral indignation is a dangerous and. It can support reason in legitimate defense and punishment. spiritedness requires an almost fanatic fury. and whose rage is the result of the loss of his friend. no matter how selfish the interest it is really protecting. Unfortunately. Now. often unreasonable and even immoral passion. and it is closely allied with the sense of justice and injustice.

anger provides unreasonable reasons for heroic action. which can be viewed as an analysis of the character of Achilles. and once again Achilles assimies a central role. that is why rivers that resist him become gods who defy him. By changing this view of death. it is clear that anger is the main cause of disobedience to rulers. demonic beings his anger. as would be expected. moderation is not. only by believing in. undue sighe does destroy his friends and countrymen because his possessions have been taken from him by the ruler. punishment of philosophers.THE REPUBLIC man. Socrates hopes to curb the extremes of the warriors' spiritedness without giving up the advantages it brings. Achilles would resist them. Such a man would make a poor citizen of the good regime which is being founded. It sees acts of injustice and duties of punishment is to attach too high a value everywhere. but that pride has its own. Though Socrates does not say so explicitly. and the true character of these phenomena can only be seen in their common source. Spiritedness is the cause of phenomena as diverse as kicking the chair over which one has stumbled. The real problem treated in these passages is. and that Achilles is the very model of the disobedient subject. Achilles does not follow the deeper sense. In the curious account given by Socrates. but only at the cost of investing the world with absurd meaning. primarily control of the bodily desires but obedience to rulers. But in a accept gifts. Socrates with love of money. it is Phoenix who suggests that he not because of their value but because they would be memnon's humiliation. for appears to stem from noble pride. He and evidence of Agaadvice. His resistance is just to accuse Achilles of attaching nificance to property. to Agamemnon roots in excessive love of one's 356 ] . claiming that it is just that he keep what belongs to him. That is why Achilles treats lifeless bodies as though they were men and scourges them. is followed by a discussion of moderation. of being mercenary. disobedience to rulers. Superficially is not avaricious. It cannot particular death and violently resists anything which would rob it of its meaning. it charges Achilles this is unfair. who minister to and justify and perhaps fabricating. In other words. makes him an unreliable subject of rulers. In it there is no private property and the rulers decide what belongs to a man. This does have the effect of elevating his heroism to fantastic heights and of making him capable of the most extraordinary deeds. closely allied with his self-respect. and insolence to gods. as he did Agamemnon. The discussion of courage. His anger. whose existence threatened and whose prospects are so bleak and cosmic significance to the sacrifice of that face the senselessness or accidental quality of a existence.

But the warriors are not wise and cannot enjoy the consolation of philosophy. friends. is Socrates' intention in these passages of the Republic made by his behavior in the Apology. The activity of philosophy—the that primitive courage they possess that is the work of a poetry soul's contemplation of the principles of all things—brings with it a pleasure of a purity and intensity that causes all other pleasures to pale. by forgetting it." according to which justice receives no reward in eternity. that exist always. good things. Death is overcome by a lack of concern with one's individual fate. therefore they need consoling myths which make death less frightening. not that of making the guardians courageous but of converting by nature into civil courage. in defense of their own. He need not live according to myths which assure the permanence and significance of things which are not permanent or significant. Perhaps even Homer suggests that wisdom can exempt a man from the miseries of Hades. which lessen the need for that furious spiritedness that consumes the element of gentleness in clearer its flames. a man who was wise on earth and who alone among the shades in Hades still possesses prudence or wisdom. it is concerned with things that are not threatened. The jurors are like Achilles family. And which leads to moderation. in the contemplation of eternity. he to philosophy. But rates' suffering from. own is precisely what Socrates is he is being condemned because he threatens Athens. This is a life both noble and reasonable. The only way they could overcome things. and noble things are no more supported by nature than base ones. Philosophy leads to lack of concern with one's own. is their fear of death. The pure form of spiritedness—that exhibited by Achilles —implies a certain "tragic view of life and the world. is trying to impress his audience with his dedication and nothing impresses the vulgar so much man who mem- willing to die for a cause.Interpretive Essay therefore. For the philosopher. He indicates that the that bers of the jury are men who fear death and he himself does not. is When he identifies himself with as a Achilles there. After his condemnation defense of one's [ 357 ] . their fear of the loss of these perishable as Achilles did this spirited —in defense of those things. living as most men do is equivalent to living in Hades as conceived by most men. The central quote among the seven at the beginning of Book III refers to Teiresias." the philosophy of which Socrates was the master. The only cure for this illness is that philosophy which consists of "learning how to die. Socown fearlessness stems from other sources. and city are the inasmuch as they hold that property. Therefore Socrates assimilates himself to the most popular example of such a man.

This scene takes place at the end of a dark. Socrates' death and the mysterious power it reveals are the new model of the heroic and must replace the Achillean one. Although they did not understand him. music and love in the universe. Socrates* death will precipitate the worst rather than fend it off. calms us and makes us reminds us. Thus. they will suffer for what they have done. But the difference between the mad Achilles and the Socrates whose death is depicted in the Phaedo is the measure of the difference between the two sources of that mastery. To the former he speaks directly and in their oviTi terms. To understand them. love reigns. they were favorably disposed to him. The discussion of music explains the possibility of that love and beauty. He strengtheiis that gentleness within them by weakening the fears which would cause them to hate the cosmopolitanism of the accused man. each defending his own to the detriment of the other. Socrates attempts to purge them of the pity and fear which can lead to fanaticism and enables them to share something of his oviTi calm without knowing its source. in Belmont. it is the meaning and uses of music. Their anger will not protect them. of the dominance of harmony in our universe. is there harmony and beauty. to as Socrates taught most helpful to turn Shakespeare who reflected that teach- The Merchant of Venice. who are potential jurors. those who had voted for condemnation and those who had voted for acquittal. Id this Utopia. Earthly music is the ing in Lorenzo's great speech to Jessica in audible imitation of the inaudible music of the spheres. imitating the function of tragedy. We forget that cosmic music because we are "grossly closed in by a muddy vesture of decay. Act V. These heard harmonies have a mathematical structure which is akin to the mathematical principles at the base of the whole. earthly music ministers to that rage. Only here. and suffer what they most fear. The myths he tells the jurors who believed him to be innocent are akin to those he wants the poets to rates are tell the warriors. They are gentle men. They assume that death is the worst thine and so he threatens them. in particular in their mastery over death. music is the one which most directly represents to the senses the intelligible order of things. Socrates' musical education of the warriors gives their passions that music without which a man." Our mortality leads us to be full of rage. in all our separateness and opposition. It [ 358 ] . Achilles and Soc- both superior to the many. gentle. To those who voted for acquittal he tells consoling myths to the effect that death is not to be feared. There is a cosmic harmony. unhappy play the theme of which was the struggle between Shylock and Antonio.THE REPUBLIC he divides his jurors into two groups. according to Lorenzo. Of all the arts. cannot be trusted.

but he cannot alter the fact that he thrives on the existence and intensification of those passions. for the world into which The spectators have the sense of the reality they enter is of men and events which are more interesting and more beautiful than any they know in their own lives. he can even. He cannot force the spectators to listen to him or like and enter into the lives of men who are repulsive to them. the poet must subordinate his love of virtue to the requirements of his art. according to Socrates. within limits. Virtuous men tend to be alike and are less likely to give way to the actions which poetry best imitates. He forces the poetically inclined Adeimantus to give up the greatest charm of poetry—imitation. the poet is unable to imitate the best [ 359 ] . In other words. In the beautiful and exalted figure of Achilles who revolts against Agamemnon and grieves over the loss of his friends. but its form must also be changed. and contempt. change the objects which move those passions. he must satisfy that demand. virtue is not necessarily the best choice of subject for a man who wants to write a beautiful epic or drama. This is what makes poetry so peculiarly attractive. But it is precisely those passions which Socrates says the warriors must try to overcome. and most important. These are his reasons: the poet can make men believe that they see and hear his characters. tion Finally. it is not. Those passions are fear. This constitutes his real periences he wishes to present. There is a certain tendency in poetry to make vice and even crime interesting because of the attractiveness of the men "drawn to them. power—he enchants men so that they live the exThe poet hides himself behind his work. The poet's hold on men is such that he can connot the real one. Precisely because he must make his audience join in the world he wishes to present to them. Men believe that in Achilles they see the reality of human perfection whereas he is only a over those distillation of themselves. he must appeal to its dominant passions. He is capable of making men cry or laugh. ceive a very high opinion of himself and a great sense of superiority he moves. The spectators want to cry or to laugh. suffering men or ludicrous ones are its favorite subjects. sufficient to change its content. he can refine the expressions of the passions connected with tears and laughter. moment. If the poet is to please. pity. whom Moreover. that the and the audience forgets. unhappy.Interpretive Essay (392c^03c) If poetry is to be salutary for the warriors. they could find justification for their own temptations and fears. and certainly moderation is not a virtue favored by poets. He must appeal to and flatter the dominant passions of the spectators. poetry seems to require diversity of character and acand the intensity of passion. But he is much less powerful than he thinks he is.

speechlessly appealing to irrational fears and pleasures—which are themselves speechless. The Socratic critique of poetry is not only that the epic tragic. Adeimantus' disposition is such as to accept severe austerity when he sees its necessity for the preservation of the city he is in the process of founding or the furtherance of that comfortable justice he asked for in his speech and was contented with in the city of sows. when it does use imitation. He does so because he wishes to protect the warriors' hard-won moderation. a temptation apparently involved in the nature of music's appeal. guides the music completely. Socrates. and most other human types can also be shown as they are. Socrates leaves at banishing most poets and insisting on a simple poetry which uses little imitation and. At this level of the discus- sion. he controls what it represents. This mastery has been gained. Instead of letting words follow music. However. A ruler can be shown ruling on the stage. Socrates ruthlessly subjects harmony and rhythm to the tales he wants told. could be shovra. its how it represents. They possess a man and give him a deep sense of the significance of his sentiments. and the community is only of secondary interest insofar as it [ 360 ] . speech. logos. Just as Socrates deprived Adeimantus of the greater part of the charm derived from imitation. and comic poets have not chosen as heroes the most admirable human types. though. only at the cost of what lovers of poetry find attractive it. and not that activity itself. however. What is needed is a form of poetry which is not compelled to make what is not truly highest appear to be highest. But it is impossible to show a philosopher philosophizing. on the other hand. the philosopher. The philosopher would ruin a tragedyand. it is not only sacrifice that is demanded. it is that form.THE REPUBLIC kind of man. Ultimately the Platonic dialogue with its hero. Harmony and rhythm move the passions in the most primitive way. although he might appear in a comedy. harmony and rhythm. Only those rhythms and harmonies which evoke the feelings appropriate to the new heroes are acceptable. with Glaucon. to which he is particularly inclined and at the mention of which he rejoins the dialogue. for they are to be ruled by men very different from those heroes and must respect them. only certain effects of his activity. Thus Socrates has made himself the master of poetry. as opposed to his brother. so he deprives Glaucon of much of the charm of the powerful accompaniments of poetry. and the accompaniments which intensify in appeal. insists on what is good for himself. But Glaucon. imitates only gbod men in their good moments. but that their forms make it impossible for them to do so. He also does so because he does not want them to believe that the heroes of poetry are the best men.

Each longs to be worthy of the other and is eager to perform the deeds which will win approval. for their satisfaction requires discord and vice. But Prospero's favorites. has a place in the new order and thus accepts the efforts requisite to that is new order. therefore. to The products of the fine arts are to be used surround them with imitations of the beautiful things. will temper their pursuit of their selfinterest. not as a result of moral principle but as a matter of taste. He [ 361 ] . The covetous Alfonso and his cohorts are. However. par- ticularly of beautiful souls. One might have expected since these that this would be the most important part of the education men are being trained for combat. those imitations will give the warriors the habit of seeing beauty in the deeds. This is a gentler. uses who must rule unwise men in his little island city of the three kinds of motivations to insure their political slavish Caliban good conduct. sacrifices. and more human path to virtue. restrained by the equivalents of conscience and the fear of divine punishment. Imitation must not flatter the passions. will shun Thrasymachus' thieves and tyrants. The can be motivated only by pinches and blows. lead to ugliness. The wise Prospero. which would seem to be the training of the warriors' souls. like Cephalus. He. to whom he intends to hand over his rule. if dominant. riors' and to him Socrates education. (403c-A12h) After music. prepared by restraint of their desires and habituated to the vision of noble men. and speeches of virtuous men and hence teach them to love whose various aspects they see represented. Socrates treats the subject as though the men did not have bodies and as though the use of arms was not the cause of victory. Ferdinand and Miranda are each struck with wonder at the aspect of the other's beauty. it In attempting to grasp what Socrates trying to achieve here. needs of the body. they are artisans of victory in battle and they must learn their art at least as well as any of the other artisans. The warriors. Socrates turns to gymnastic which would seem to be the training of the warriors' bodies. The the virtue characters. a grace and delicacy of sentiment and action. Glaucon now sees that eros. Tempest. The must have sufficient reasons for his reveals the positive purpose of the warwarriors are to be lovers of the beautiful. surer. is again most helpful to turn to Shakespeare's poetry.Interpretive Essay serves that goal. The severe moderation of the bodily desires which Socrates has imposed is the condition of the liberation of the love of the fair and the virtuous. but transform and sublimate them. The warriors will be more politically reliable because the eros of the beautiful. no matter how it is adorned. are lovers of the beautiful who need no harsher constraints. properly educated.

according to Socrates. they take from — others and must appear before a judge. which is the pre-condition of living any kind of good life at all. But it is not entirely implausible within the context of this city. Therefore the control of the warriors' predatary inclinations and the encouragement of their dedication to the common good is more important than their fighting skill. are required in cities for the same reason as judges because there is a failure of moderation. and recognizing it makes one aware of the problem of the good city and the good life—that is. since gymnastic has little to do in keeping men's at the bodies healthy. that there is a tension between the activities necessary to preserve life and those necessary to live it well. and would have to admit that man is a body and soul. Inevitably. It will soon become evident that these warriors will do little if any fighting outside the city. and if a body does become diseased. as though its demands were in perfect harmony with those of the body. This neglect. the disrupts the body's harmony. This is an unwarranted assertion. is deliberate. The satisfaction of the body's demands. or at least as though its demands never contradict those of a good city or philosophy. that the city will have little foreign policy. can easily become an end in itself. The cause of a healthy body is a healthy soul. Socrates directs his attention exclusively to the perfection of the soul. however. technical skill The is discussion of gymnastic is in keeping with the neglect of the body which characterizes the entire Republic. still. and that their function is much more to control the vices of the desiring or wage-earning class. as opposed to complex. Socrates' whole treatment of the good city seems to neglect the problems involved in getting and keeping the things which make the good city possible. peculiarly difficult to neglect. body perfectly. are told to forget the evidence to the contrary provided by sick men and the existence of an art of medicine which ministers to men's bodies and not their souls. that good souls cannot be joined to same time. asserts that the possession of virtue assures victory. However he continues to insist that his warriors are simple. for the difficulty posed by the body is made clear and precise only by acting as though it did not exist.THE REPUBLIC and chance play no role. as any experience of life will show. Doctors. In other words. then. the discussion turns from a description of gymnastic into an attack on medicine which looks to the care of diseased bodies without regard to the health of the soul. beings. we are asked to believe that the soul controls the bad bodies and. same inflamed desire also and the men thus diseased must submit [ 362 ] . But. nature must be allowed to take its But in this case the body would seem that here Socrates dual being and discuss the relation of it course. When men desire too much.

Interpretive Essay

themselves to a doctor. Immoderation is the cause of all ills of body and city. Both judges and doctors should be kept out of the city as much as possible. The particular object of Socrates' apparent scorn is Herodicus, the founder of advanced and complex medicine, who was a sickly man and invented an art which kept his ruined body alive. The
is ridiculous and dangerous because he subordinates everything to keeping himself alive and has nothing to live for but that life; if his kind of caring for life were to become general in a city, the city's virtue would be undermined, everything in it would be harnessed to that purpose—the soul would exist for the body rather than the body

for the soul.

Socrates opposes complex medicine with a simple, good medicine which was founded by the divine Asclepius and is described by Homer. Asclepius used ready methods which did not require the quest for rare medicines or any change in the patient's way of life. If these methods did not suffice, the patient was allowed to die. This may seem like a

crude art of medicine, but Asclepius did not adopt it out of ignorance but because he was political or statesmanlike, meaning he adapted the art of medicine to the common good. This kind of medicine does not threaten the practice of the virtues and the simple devotion to them; it does not emancipate the body and permit it to have a life of its own. Thus Socrates finds in Homer a twin to the simple poetry he has just
elaborated in opposition to Homer. Complex poetry causes men to attach too much significance to what is perishable, to what is their own;
bodies. Perhaps the

complex medicine causes men to attach too much significance to their two errors are really the same. As the new poetry is
intended to make men strong in the loss of their lives, their properties, and their loved ones, the old medicine was intended to make them strong in the disease of their bodies. Although Socrates' concern with the citizens' performing their duties makes his banishment of Herodicus' medicine comprehensible and even justifiable, it does not do away with the fact that Herodicus knew much more about the body than did Asclepius; nor does it do away with the fact that his art reveals the untruth of the myth concerning the simplicity or unity of man. To understand man one must understand
his complexity,

and to do that one must study his illness as well as his health, his vices as well as his virtues. Such a study is impossible in this city because it is too simple. Glaucon recognizes this when he warns Socrates that it will be difficult to have good judges in their city because the men in it will not have sufficient experience with the diversity of
souls to

be able

to diagnose



to ignore the question,


it is


them properly. Socrates chooses that he has more to learn from the




experience of Herodicus and Homer from complex medicine and complex poetry which know not only the good but also the bad—than


here willing to admit. It seems that the arts—and hence intellectual perfection—flourish in an atmosphere which is inimical to the citizen virtue of the warriors. A soldier or an artisan who forgets his body and concentrates on his work is surely better at his trade, but the body cannot be forgotten by the man who wishes to have knowledge of the body and its relation to the soul. The demands of citizen virtue and

intellectual virtue are different.


appears to be a concentration on

the warriors' souls

power of their bodies. If the warriors were to see the truth about bodies, they could not be trusted to control them. Their education is incomplete and so are they. Socrates' denigration of the body goes so far that he ends by denying that gymnastic has anything to do with the body at all. Its real purpose is to traift the soul. Just as the spirited part of the soul needed softening, so the gentle or philosophic part needs hardening. Reason tends to be weak in that it puts itself into the service of the passions or gives way to the rage of spiritedness. It must be strengthened so that it can resist particular desires and angers in its quest for the universal truth.

actually a concern for the

Gymnastic serves that function. In the preparation of the warriors' souls for good citizenship, Socrates also looks to their openness to philosophy and the salvation of any potential philosophers arnong them. Spiritedness and gentleness are the warp and woof of the soul, each necessary to its healthy functioning but in a delicate balance with one another.. To alter the metaphor, the soul must be tuned like an instrument, by relaxing and tightening the strings; this is what education in music and gymnastic does. The proper tuning of the instrument is the precondition of citizenship and of philosophy. At the end of the warriors' education— an education intended to make them good guardians of a peaceful people—it becomes evident that the virtue which has been encouraged is moderation. This education is now complete and the warriors are about to assume their functions, but there has been no training in justice. It seems possible to have good guardians who are not just. This can be explained only if moderation is an equivalent of justice. And moderation is, at least from the city's standpoint, such an equivalent. The main source of civic strife is competition for scarce good things, and those who can control their desires for these things are least likely to find it to their advantage to be seditious and break the laws. In the city of sows, the harmony of public and private interest was insured by the simplicity of desire, natural plenty, and the skill of the arts. Once desire has been eman-




Interpretive Essay




of moderation—understood as




spiritedness as well as desire—is used to re-establish that


{412h-il6d) The next step in the establishment of the regime is the selection of rulers. These must be the older warriors who also possess prudence and military capacity and who care for the city. Al-

though the other qualifications seem equally important, the only one discussed is that of caring for the city. The severe education of the warriors has not rendered them free of the temptations which might ultimately make them wolves instead of watchdogs. They still think of the good things as those which are scarce and which men wish to keep privately for themselves. Nothing in their education has as yet attached

them to this city and its well-being. If they are to care for the city they must love it, and if they are to love it they must connect it with their own self-love: they will love the city most if they are of the opinion
that the city's advantage





constantly threatened, either because

advantage. Apparently, this it is not simply

evident to natural reason or because reason can so easily be mastered by sophistic arguments or by passions. Thus the most important
criterion in the selection of the rulers

that they hold this opinion



The most
does not

elaborate techniques are used to test them.

And even this

suffice to

guarantee that they will love the


They must be showered with honors and rewards which will give them even more palpable proof of how advantageous the city is for them. But all the education, testing, and honors are not enough to reestablish the harmony between private and public interest which disappeared with the city of sows. The only remedy that Socrates can
is a great lie—the noble lie. This famous lie consists of two very diverse parts. According to the first part, all the members of the city, and particularly the warriors, were bom from the earth and educated and equipped prior to emerging from it. If the citizens believe the tale, they will have a blood tie to the

country; their relationship to



have the same immediacy

as does

their relationship to the family. Loyalty to a particular city always

seems somehow questionable: why affection for these men rather than any or all others? The tale makes them brothers and relates them to this particular patch of land. It identifies city and regime with country, which is the object of the most primitive political loyalty; it gives the motherland life and the principles of^he city body. Short of a universal state, nothing but such a tale can make a natural connection of the individual to one of the many existing cities. Moreover, in this way, the




itself is lent

the color of naturalness.


fact that




institution, as other natural things

naturalness into

do not, calls their question. But here the very functions which the regime

has educated the citizens to

are attributed to nature; the citizens

grow into their political roles as acorns grow into oaks. Each might have wondered why he should be devoted to his particular specialty to the exclusion of all others; but now they see that the equipment of their arts belongs to them in the same way their bodies do. This regime is also vulnerable because it conquered or stole the land in which it is established; this imperfect beginning gives ground for later men to
for that eventuality

argue the right of the stronger in their own interest. This tale provides by concealing the unjust origin of this regime

by a just account of its origin. On the basis of the lie, the citizens can in all good faith and conscience take pride in the justice of their regime, and malcontents have no Justification for rebellion. Such are the advantages of autochthony.

we have


hierarchy of

The second part of the lie human talents and

gives divine sanction to the natural
virtues while enabling the regime to

advantages of this hierarchy with those of mobility. In the Socratic view, political justice requires that unequal men receive unequal honors and unequal shares in ruling. This is both advantageous and fitting. In order to be effective and be preserved, the
inequality of right and duty
in practice, if inequality

combine the

must receive

institutional expression. But,

an accepted principle it finds its expression in a fixed class to which one belongs as a result of birth and/or wealth, rather than virtue. Where there is no such class, equality is the principle that dominates; and, if in an egalitarian society there are hierarchies, they are based on standards like wealth or technical skill. The problem is to establish a regime in which the hierarchy established by law reflects the natural one, or in. which virtue is the only title to membership in the ruling class. All unjust conventional inequalities must be overcome without abandoning the respect for the inequality constituted by differences in virtue. The difficulty, of course, stems from private interest and property. The more powerful always want to have more, and the weaker are willing to settle for equality. In order to demote the ruler, his special privileges and property must be taken from him; such changes meet the strongest resistance. Fathers are not inclined to see their sons deprived of their birthright. And it is not easy to make men without virtues see and accept their inferiority and give up hopes of rising. Reason and sentiment demand a solution by means of which men get what they deserve. But in all actual regimes there are one of two practical solutions: there is a hierarchy, but one that mixes nature with




Interpretive Essay

convention by making ruling depend on some more easily recognized and accepted title than virtue; or there is no standard or hierarchy at all. Each solution reflects a part of the truth, but each is incomplete.



solidity while

provides a basis for a satisfactory solution, giving the hierarchy at the same time presenting men with a rationale

designed to overcome their primitive inclination to value themselves at least as highly as their neighbors. The lie accomplishes this by introducing a god who fashions the citizens, and who at their birth mixes various metals into them to indicate their various values—gold for rulers, silver for warriors, and bronze and iron for artisans. If the citizens believe this, and if the citizens also accept the notion that there are means of seeing the various metals, they will have at least some counterpoise to their self-love. The lie implies that the city must have some wise ruler who can distinguish the qualities of souls, but here that is not underlined, and the emphasis is on preparing the citizens to accept both a stability and a movement which go against their grain. The first part of the lie differs from the second in that the former attempts to make the conventional attachment to the city and its regime seem natural, while the latter must provide a conventional support for natural differences which men have reason to want to forget. This is why, in the second part of the lie, a god must be invoked. The lie, because it is a lie, points up the problems it is designed to

Perhaps no rational investigation of them could yield a basis for any event, the character of men's desires would make it impossible for a rational teaching to be the public teaching. Today it is generally admitted that every society is based on myths, myths which render acceptable the particular form of justice incorporated in the system. Socrates speaks more directly: the myths are lies. As such, they are unacceptable to a rational man. But he does not hold that because all civil societies need myths about justice, there is no rational basis to be found for justice. His teaching cannot serve as an excuse for accepting whatever a society asserts is justice. The noble lie is precisely an attempt to rationalize the justice of civil society; it is an essential part of an attempt to elaborate a regime which most embodies the principles of natural justice and hence transcends the false justice of other regimes. The thoughtful observer will find that the noble lie is a political expression of truths which it itself leads him to consider. In other words, there are good reasons for every part of this lie, and that is
political legitimacy. In


a rational

man would be

willing to




Socratic teaching that a

good society requires a fundamental


the direct opposite of that of the Enlightenment which
civil society

argued that

could dispense with

and count on





calculation to

make men

loyal to




between the two

views can be reduced to a difference concerning the importance of moderation, both for the preservation of civil society and for the full development of individual men's natures. The noble lie is designed to give men grounds for resisting, in the name of the common good, their
powerful desires.
to care for the


that such lies are necessary to induce

great thinkers of the Enlightenment did not deny men to sacrifice their desires and

good. They were no more hopeful than Socrates concerning most men's natural capacity to overcome their inclinations and devote themselves to the public welfare. What they in-


was that it was possible to build a civil society in which men did not have to care for the common good, in which desire would be channeled rather than controlled. A civil society which provided security and some prospect of each man's acquiring those possessions he most wishes would be both a more simple and more .sure solution than any Utopian attempt to make men abandon their selfish wishes. Such a civil society could count on men's rational adhesion, for it would be an instrument in procuring their own good as they see it. Therefore moderation of the appetites would be not only unnecessary but undesirable, for it would render a man more independent of the regime whose purpose
it is

to satisfy the appetites.


Socratic response to this argument

he would simply deny the possibility of a compelled to call for real sacrifices from its citizens. This is particularly true in time of war. A man cannot reasonably calculate that dying in
battle will serve the long-range satisfaction of his desires. Therefore

would be twofold. First, regime which would never be

myths which can make citizens of it will be both very difficult to provide such myths, and they will be a distasteful parody of the reason on which the society prides itself; what pretends to be philosophy will have to be propaganda. Second, such a civil society can be founded only by changing the meaning of rationality. For this society, rationality consists in the discovery of the best means of satisfying desires. The irrationality of those desires must be neglected; in particular, men must neglect the irrationality of their unwillingness to face the fact that they must die, of their constant search for the means of self-preservation as if they

society will require

private men. B