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and Reactions from Ernest Jones
RICHARD I. EVANS Professor of Psychology University of Houston AN INSIGHT BOOK D. VAN NOSTRAND COMPANY, INC. PRINCETON, NEW JERSEY
The dialogue represented in this volume, the author feels, provided a vehicle for Dr. Jung which allowed perhaps the most exciting and lucid presentation of many of his fundamental concepts yet recorded.It is hoped that this presentation will not only serve as an introduction to Jung's ideas for students in the behavioral sciences, but also will provide a stimulating look at some of Jung's fundamental contributions to others who have always been discouraged from reading Jung's works because of their alleged obscurity, vagueness, unreasonable complexity, and mysticism. For the Jungian scholar, the author hopes that a more intimate glance at Jung's thought processes has been provided, as he reacts spontaneously to an orderly sequence of questions.Jung insisted on not being briefed on any of the questions prepared for the interviews. The reactions from Ernest Jones not only provide further interesting elaborations of Freudian theory, some of Jones' personal interests, and his concepts of Sigmund Freud, the man, but they also provide a sharp and final study by which to contrast Jung, the powerful figure whose break with Freud troubled him most, with Jones, Freud's enduringly loyal and devoted follower. The author, through the recent award of a grant from the National Science Foundation, will be enabled to complete such teaching interviews with many additional distinguished contributors to personality theory.However, he knows that he will never again have a privilege so profound as recording virtually the last thoughts of two individuals who came so directly in contact with the beginning stages of psychoanalysis— perhaps the most significant revolution in thinking concerning the nature of man. RICHARD I. EVANS Houston, Texas
In the long process involved in filming the dialogues with Carl Jung and Ernest Jones in Europe and transcribing them for the present volume, the author is indebted to a great many individuals.Though space prohibits mentioning everyone who so kindly assisted, he wishes to express his appreciation to at least some of those people who contributed. Dr. John W. Meaney, now of the University of Texas, who functioned superbly in the demanding roles of producer-director-cinematographer for the original films, and without whose support the entire project would have been impossible, must be cited most prominently. The special consideration and assistance of Frau Aniela Jaffé, Dr. Jung's secretary-assistant and now an author in her own right, proved invaluable in helping us arrange and successfully complete the interviews with Dr. Jung. The encouragement and support of Dr. Joe Wheelright, the eminent Jungian psychiatrist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco, provided the critical personal endorsement we needed to elicit the cooperation of Dr. Jung. The kindness of Mrs. Ernest Jones in assisting us with the Jones interview will not be soon forgotten. The willingness of the Schlumberger Corporation in Paris and the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology in Zurich to provide physical facilities for the interviews is also greatly appreciated. Miss Joy Byrne's skill and imagination as an editorial assistant helped me throughout in the preparation of the manuscript, and for her efforts I am most grateful.Also, thanks are due to psychology graduate students Albert Ramirez and Gary Blank for their assistance. Finally, we are grateful for the grant from the Fund for the Advancement of Education.The Fund's tolerance in allowing us to deviate from an original plan, which would have led simply to the recording of lectures, provided the financial assistance and latitude without which this project could not have originated.
PREFACE iii ACKNOWLEDGMENTS V PART I. PROLOGUE TO A CHALLENGING VENTURE 1 PART II. JUNG AND FREUD 25 1. Jung Relating to Freud, Adler, and Rank 2. Jung's Appraisal of Freudian Psychosexual Development 3. Jung's Appraisal of Freud's Structural Concepts: Id, Ego, and Super‐ ego PART III. THE UNCONSCIOUS 45 4. The Unconscious: Archetypes 5. The Unconscious: General Conceptualizations PART IV. INTROVERT-EXTROVERT THEORY AND MOTIVATION 65 6. Introvert-Extrovert Type Theories 7. Motivational Concepts PART V. SOME REACTIONS CONCERNING PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING, PSYCHOTHERAPY, MENTAL TELEPATHY, AND OTHER PERSONAL INSIGHTS 85 8. Jung on Diagnostic and Therapeutic Practices 9. Jung on Contemporary Psychological Problems 10. Personal Insights, Reminiscences, and Experiences with Great Figures PART VI. REACTIONS FROM ERNEST JONES 117
27 30 38 47 55 67 80
87 102 114
PART VII. IN CONCLUSION—SOME GENERAL AND THEORETICAL OBSERVATIONS ON THE DIALOGUE CONTENT 143 APPENDIX A—Report on the Jung-Jones Film Project: Submitted by the University of Houston to The Fund for the Advancement of Education APPENDIX B—An Exploratory Investigation of the Psychological and Educational Impact of a Filmed Dialogue with Carl Jung BIBLIOGRAPHY INDEX
159 167 169
Part I PROLOGUE TO A CHALLENGING VENTURE
In the section that follows the writer has attempted to trace in some detail the challenging series of events which preceded the interviews with Dr. Jung and Dr. Jones.
In this section the writer also articulates his impressions and perceptions of the actual process of completing the interviews, including certain personality insights gained by the author based on limited but unusual contact with these notable figures.
The idea of filming a series of interviews with Dr. Carl Jung, when it first occurred, seemed to be only a remote possibility.We knew that Dr. Jung had been approached unsuccessfully by several commercial television and film producers in the past.Yet, it seemed that this was worth a try. Some months before this, the University of Houston had received an $18,700 grant from the Fund for the Advancement of Education to explore some new dimensions in university instruction. Dr. John Meaney, who at this time was director of the University of Houston Radio and Television Film Center, was involved with this project when he approached the writer concerning the possibility of utilizing these funds in some project involving psychology.We began to discuss possible approaches which could be pursued if a pilot project in psychology was initiated with these funds. For years, like many other university professors in Colleges of Arts and Sciences, I had become increasingly aware of the tendency among great numbers of students to become less interested in reading the original writings of great contributors.They were becoming content to merely read "predigested" secondary sources which often did injustice to the intentions of these significant thinkers.For example, it always amazed me to find that a surprisingly large number of even advanced psychology students had never actually read Freud's original writings, but had read instead about Freud through the words of other writers.It seemed that there was a need to motivate the students to look directly at the original writings of such innovators as Freud, if they were to become truly informed and appreciative of their ideas.It then followed that a challenge lay in developing with our grant funds a stimulating technique which would encourage the students to pursue such primary contact with the ideas of important contributors. Simply making films of lectures by these individuals, wherein they orally presented the same material about which they had already written, did not appear to be the most effective means for our purposes. The potential pitfall in this method is readily discernible in many college television courses. Specifically, the intellectual, in lecturing as in writing, tends to become somewhat pedantic, thereby losing the interest of his audience. It occurred to me that perhaps one technique which might be utilized to avoid this undesirable, imminent possibility was the filmed interview. Through use of the interview, the contributor could present his ideas in an atmosphere of spontaneity which would tend to "humanize" him, providing for the student a more pleasant and stimulating experience than is often allowed by the neutrality of the formal lecture. The interview, of course, has long been used as a technique in such fields as journalism, law, psychotherapy, counseling and casework, and obviously is a fundamental device in our culture for gaining insight into other people and their ideas. Why could not carefully planned and filmed interviews be set up with eminent psychologists for instructional purposes? The student, through the interviewer, could be systematically introduced to a great contributor's point of view. We liked the idea. A course which I had offered for many years, Approaches to Personality, appeared to be a likely vehicle for such an effort, so all that remained was to find a manner in which to launch this technique in as dramatic a fashion as possible.Thus, the idea of interviewing Dr. Carl Jung, the only surviving member of the "big three" ( Jung, Freud, and Adler), originated. Most individuals became very skeptical of our chances for success when we announced that we were going to contact Jung and pursue the possibility of going to Zurich to film a series of interviews to launch our teach ing-interview project.Success or failure, however, the idea of interviewing Dr. Jung was too appealing, so we proceeded to prepare to write to him. The framing of this letter became an unusual task. One asks oneself if he has never met Jung, and knows him only as a near anachronism in the modern world, how his interest in such a project might best be solicited. Also, when one has spent many years of his life studying personality theory and has come to fully appreciate the historical importance of Jung in the psychoanalytic movement, the task of writing to him takes on an air of excitement. In order to gain perspective for this task, I decided to contact Dr. Joe Wheelwright, a prominent Jungian psychiatrist at the Langley Porter Clinic in San Francisco.He had had considerable contact with Dr. Jung, and could be of much assistance to us as a liaison in our efforts to secure the cooperation of Dr. Jung. Thus, it was with gratification that my colleague and I received not only Dr. Wheelwright's professed interest in the proposed project, but permission from him to mention his support of it in the letter subsequently dispatched to Professor Jung, requesting his participation in the initial interview of our series.That letter read as follows: April 2, 1957 Professor Doctor C. G. Jung Seestrasse 228 Küsnacht-Zürich, Switzerland Dear Professor Doctor Jung:
A prominent United States foundation, The Fund for the Advancement of Education, has awarded us a small grant which will make it possible to begin filming for the use of undergraduate students a psychology course series of lectures and discussions. In planning a course in psychology on film, it occurred to us that the presence on film of some of the truly great men in psychology would be an inspiration to our American psychology students.Naturally, the first name that came to our minds was yours. We have long been interested in your work, and your presence on film would, in our opinion, add appreciably to the learning of our students. If you would be willing to participate, we could fly to Switzerland to do the filming at your convenience. We would not request a great deal of preparation such as formal lectures would require, but rather, we would ask you to participate in a series of four informal interviews. We would, of course, submit the topics to you in advance, and in fact, would welcome your advice in choosing them. This would allow you to reflect fully the many interesting facets of your work. To avoid imposing on your time, these interviews could be spaced so that they could be filmed over a week's time or longer. We would plan to spend a week or more in Switzerland, and, if it will fit into your schedule, could arrive on or around August fifth. Dr. Joe Wheelwright, with whom we spoke concerning this matter, wishes to express his encouragement to you to work with us on these films.He shares our belief that it would be of great educational value to our psychology students, not only in this university but throughout the United States. Copies of the films could be made available to colleges everywhere in the United States. Dr. John Meaney, Director of the Radio-TV Film Center at this university, as recipient of the grant, would produce the four films.He has produced many stimulating educational series for professional groups and for educational television. From my own experience working with him, I find him a most sympathetic and understanding student of psychology; so his work, I'm certain, would achieve the best possible results. If you will permit us to do so and will suggest an appropriate amount, we shall be pleased to arrange for payment of an honorarium to you for your participation in these four films. We are looking forward hopefully to a reply from you concerning this matter. Cordially yours Within ten days we received the following reply from Dr. Jung: Prof. Dr. C. G. Jung KÜSNACHT-ZÜRICH Seestrasse 228 Prof. Richard I. Evans, Ph.D. University of Houston Cullen Boulevard Houston 4, Texas April 1957 Dear Prof. Evans, I am inclined to meet your request, if you can limit yourself to four interviews on consecutive days, beginning on August 5th about 4 P.M. As to the nature of your questions, I prefer your initiative. I would not know in what aspect of psychology you are particularly interested, I also cannot assume that our interests are the same. An interview should not last longer than one hour at the most, as I easily get tired on account of my old age. Since I am not informed about the size of your grant, I should like you to tell me frankly what you intend in the way of an honorarium. I hope you are sufficiently aware of the unreliability imposed upon me by my age. Whatever I promise is necessarily subjected to the ulterior decision of fate that can interfere unexpectedly. Sincerely yours I'm sure that you can imagine the delight with which we greeted this reply and the haste with which we proceeded in the direction of further planning. The following correspondence between Dr. Jung, myself, and Dr. Jung's secretary, Mrs. Aniela Jaffé, is self-explanatory and traces the lines of events that led us to set up a firm appointment for four days in August of 1957.
April 18, 1957 Professor Dr. C. G. Jung Seestrasse 228, Küsnacht-Zürich, Switzerland Dear Professor Doctor Jung, We were all delighted to receive your letter of April 12. On the day that your letter arrived, it happened that we were discussing some of your contributions to personality theory in my Psychology of Personality class, and when I read your letter to the class, it was, indeed, a dramatic note. The dates that you indicate that you can see us for the purpose of filming interviews, August 5, 6, 7, and 8, are just fine. Dr. Meaney and I would probably arrive in Zurich a few days prior to this, of course. In looking over our budget, an honorarium in the amount of five hundred dollars would appear to be feasible. Does this seem to be sufficient? If not, please let us know and we shall make every effort to make some adjustment. With respect to the content of the interviews and the kinds of questions that I would ask you, it would be our desire to direct the discussion to the level of the undergraduate college student in psychology. Examples of the areas of discussion that would be of interest at this level would be the unconscious, introversion-extroversion and the ways in which these tendencies interact with the factors in your tetrasomy (feeling, thinking, intuition, sensation), the Word-Association Method, views of human personality development and maturity, and so on.Naturally, we shall endeavor in every way to direct our interviews to meet with your complete approval. On behalf of Dr. Meaney, our psychology department staff, and the University of Houston administration, I wish to thank you for your graciousness in accepting our proposal, thereby allowing our project to begin on such a distinguished note. Cordially yours April 1957 Richard I. Evans, Ph.D. University of Houston Cullen Boulevard Houston 4, Texas USA Dear Prof. Evans, Thank you for your kind letter. The proposed honorarium of five hundred dollars will suit me completely. Thank you also for giving me an outline of the questions you are going to ask. I sincerely hope that I shall not be too complicated. Looking forward to our meeting, I remain, Dear Prof. Evans, Yours sincerely May 16, 1957 Professor Doctor C. G. Jung Seestrasse 228 Küsnacht-Zürich, Switzerland Dear Professor Jung: We were delighted that the honorarium of five hundred dollars will be satisfactory. We are also pleased that the general discussion areas which we listed will be agreeable. May I raise an additional point? Dr. Meaney, who will, of course, be filming our interviews, would like your opinion of the lighting situation which for film work is very important, as you know.For example, at four in the afternoon during the early days of August when we have our appointments with you, is the lighting outside sufficient so that we may actually film the interviews outside in the front of your house, perhaps? From a technical point of view, this would then make it unnecessary to set up special lighting which might be necessary if the interviews were filmed, perhaps, some place in your home.Sound could also be more effectively recorded outside. Your comments concerning these points will be greatly appreciated.
University of Houston Cullen Blvd. an eminent psychoanalyst and scholar. the Schlumberger Corporation.But. Evans. abundantly in evidence. since both of these distinguished scientists had had primary contact with Freud and had emerged from the contact with divergent points of view.Incidentally. to interview another outstanding psychologist while we were in Europe.The interview with Dr. I assume that you know the chaotic conditions of European weather. we have a lot of noise near the house on account of a public bathing place. The extra copy is for your files. however. that surrounded many of Jung's fundamental notions. Needless to say. I have to leave these technical decisions to yourself. Jung's work too mystical and philosophical to satisfy their criteria for sound. as the reader will note.Concedente Deo. controversial Dr. 1957 Prof. it is interesting to note that Jung's ideas are more characteristically heralded by members of philosophy and English departments in universities than by the inhabitants of psychology departments.It was equally true. Ernest Jones. Evans. as a matter of routine. D. Ph. had been kind enough to make their Paris offices available for the interview. Jones' poor health had in no way dulled the pungent sting of his words when he so chose to respond. American psychologists have found Dr. a victim of terminal cancer and a recent coronary attack as well. Jones. and it was in this setting that we met with Dr.She.On the whole. wished to defer to Dr. my colleague and I bid Dr.Officials of a local Houston firm.How eagerly we anticipated the impending meeting with the prominent. Jung as an important pioneer and historical figure in the history of psychology. Here enclosed you also find the signed declaration. scientific research. Feeling extremely satisfied with the success of the first segment of our mission. Jones. Au revoir in summer! Sincerely yours We decided that it would be expedient as well as valuable. Jones. a meeting of the International Congress of Psychoanalysis was in session.Though he himself was quite preoccupied at the time with a host of friends and well‐ wishers who had gathered around him. Dr. you would need about 100 yards of wire. Knowing that Dr. Jung. that I shared some of the skepticism. we have the most beautiful bright sunlight. Houston 4. In his last years.However. for just a moment. Dr. we saw. The interim involved in the journey to Zurich provided an opportunity for meditation and reflection over the past few months which inevitably led to further consideration of Dr.Our students are already asking us when our filmed reports of the interviews will be available for them to see. he quickly referred us to Mrs. we should retire to a remote corner of the garden. we would not have been surprised if he had decided not to follow through with the interview. In this case. Jones approached the interview situation is readily discernible in his illuminating and candid responses to my varied inquiries. France.Upon entering the large auditorium where a general meeting was being held. Carl Jung. the setting for the finale of our venture. Jones would be a noteworthy complement to the succeeding interviews with Dr.In fact.We would appreciate it if you would sign it above your name. In that case. one gentleman who immediately captured our attention. initial contact with Dr. Thank you again for making this venture possible for us. The perspicacity and insight with which Dr. When we arrived in Paris to complete our interview with Dr. Richard I. Jones. Jung and his work. our University requires your signature on the enclosed form. in the interest of our project. as if Freud himself was sitting there. they would provide a provocative contrast for the student for whom these films were intended.Like many American psychologists. Jones had grown a beard. we requested an interview with Anna Freud. however. where there is no electricity.If the weather is good and hot. Moreover. who had devoted much of his life to supporting the views of Sigmund Freud. changing his appearance and making it look.The lethal illness which daily pillaged his body of what little strength remained had gained no satisfaction at all over his keen. 6 . furthermore. Texas USA Dear Dr. We were fortunate in securing an appointment with Dr. Acting on this decision. Jones was in extremely poor physical condition. Please return the copy bearing your signature with your reply to this letter. Meaney and I are very excited about our trip and the prospects of meeting and spending a few hours with you. seated on the stage among an array of significant figures in the psychoanalytic movement. Jones farewell and immediately set out for Zurich. Dr. if the Nephelegeretés Zeus prefers to envelop our beloved country in shrouds of mist and rain. who assured us that her husband would be present at the appointed time and meeting place already arranged for the interview. it may even happen that we have to put on the lights in the room. perceptive intellect. Cordially yours May 30. I had long respected and been interested in Dr. so our first stop in Europe was Paris. Jones dispelled all such solicitudes.—Well.
had served many of our introductory textbooks in psychology well as a kind of "whipping boy" in an attempt to warn the beginning student not to type people or put them into categories. Dr. (The reader will note that we have often used Jung's reactions to Freudian theory as a means of not only allowing the student to compare the two men. however. Drs.As he busied himself with these problems the next day. By now. Dr. Dr. Jung's ideas had become conspicuous contributions in psychology. perhaps more familiar with his work.) This manner of presentation within a framework intelligible to contemporary psychology students would provide an opportunity for greater clarity in communication. had written a chapter on Jung which appeared to me to be one of the most laudatory and positive descriptions of Jung's ideas to be presented in the literature of contemporary American psychology.For example.His first words to me were. Jung's work played any crucial role. with its emphasis on scientific analysis and procedure. in as direct and systematic a fashion as possible. who carried himself with dignity. and we sat down to begin discussing a number of different things. most provocative Dr. "household" words. the teaching situation implies a context where critical evaluation is very important. continues to speak highly of him. as a "race unconscious" or "transcendental conceptions of the self. The problems of our one-man camera operator. respected. Jung's home. it was no secret to him that his introversion-extroversion typology. Jung in his garden. I expressed a hope that they would be a vehicle for introducing students to his work. Jung was particularly interested. I might add further. he gave all the appearances of being in excellent health. that is. Meaney had the tremendous task of setting up the film equipment in the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. I walked over from our hotel in Küsnacht to Dr.This was in Küsnacht. Dr. if any. tea was served. director and co-producer. who did not accept many of his ideas. and.One notable example was the distinguished. as the reader may have noted from the content of his first letter to us. the impact of surprise would probably have never followed. Murray. which in turn made it necessary that they be couched in a level of language comprehensible to even the very beginning student. I had been teaching Jungian theory for many years. "Why do you American psychologists hate me so much?" I feel sure that I need not express the disconcerting surprise on my part which followed this inquiry. and the date was August 2. so much in evidence whenever he wanted to tease or banter about something for a moment.Contemporary psychology. Jung would be very glad to receive me in his garden the next day to talk very briefly about the interviews which were going to be taking place in the following days. it would be unfair not to mention that there were a few American psychologists who took Jung's conceptions concerning the nature of human personality more seriously. In these forthcoming interviews. over six-feet-tall figure of a man.I was received by Dr. however." only one of many such terms introduced by Dr. could hardly be expected to embrace such metaphysical concepts.The questions which I framed would allow him to contrast his views with those of Freud. I was compelled to decide what the purpose of the impending interviews should be. the site of the forthcoming interviews. As I approached the idea of interviewing Jung." much less his suggestion that ancient writings in alchemy can supply knowledge of the growth and development process of the individual.On this point. Jung revealed that he was indeed aware of the critical scrutiny to which certain of his concepts had been subjected. Jung's personality was to prove more delightful in the days that followed than that already referred to "twinkle" in his eyes. He signified a clear understanding of this. and gaining rapport with him was easily accomplished.Furthermore. particularly in the past. particularly those views pertaining to personality theory. I also pointed out to him. I was delighted to hear from her that Dr. Jung. it seemed best not to create an atmosphere where critical assessment of Dr. Few. in a widely used textbook.Such concepts as these had led to Jung's persona non grata status among a large number of American psychologists. Calvin Hall and Gardner Lindzey. Henry Murray of Harvard University. Also. though "hate" was a rather strong term to use with reference to their sentiments.Thus. however. Jung's initial question with the only legitimate response available to me. who had considerable contact with Jung. Jung was not entirely without his distinguished following even in this land of skeptics. Jung. Dr. Physically. which was but a few blocks away. Jung even slightly. Ensuing discussion with Dr. however. I did not react to this disarming statement as seriously as might be expected because of the teasing twinkle I detected in Dr.Like so many professors in personality courses. in essence. Jung's secretary. I answered Dr. Although Dr. that certain of Dr. he had supplied a tool which most psychologists had found extremely useful. however. he was a wellproportioned. After arriving in Switzerland. 7 .His introvert-extrovert typology had become part of the active vocabulary of countless numbers who had no formal training in psychology. we immediately contacted Frau Jaffé. however. to get a technical crew together became quite a chore. but also as a means of generating a development of Jung's ideas. postulated by Dr. but it is equally true that had I known Dr. Jung to set forth his views. were cognizant that he had never intended these typologies to be anything more than a useful guide in helping to understand the individual. Theories of Personality ( 12 ). probably the majority in fact. Meaney. and such classical terms as "complex. I had to admit that there was certainly a large number of American psychologists. as the creator of the "word association" test.He wanted to know for whom these filmed interviews would be intended. I explained to him that many psychologists. in this case to label them as simply introverts or extroverts. Jung's eyes as he peered at me through his glasses.Even on such short acquaintance. that another group of psychologists existed in America who were quite familiar with his work and much more positive in their evaluation of it. and in my opinion. and expound upon his own unique contributions. Dr.Also. in the educational goals of our project.In the meantime. denied. In order to present Jung's views objectively. had been so well-assimilated into our modern language as to make them. His manner was warm and charming. of course. Jung was at this time 82 years of age. I felt it would be best to present an opportunity for Dr. that no element of Dr.
analytical psychologist Jung. much of what he said was highly technical and difficult to translate into everyday English. . September 16. which afforded us some intriguing insight into him as a person. we had informed the late William McHale. One which stands out though as having added an interesting note to the proceedings was the assignment of Tom Dozier. seemed to enjoy the whole thing immensely." would be anxious to handle this situation in a way of which he would approve.Since he was lecturing for students and since he is often obscure anyway. consisting of two University professors seeking out Dr. He was appearing for the first time ever before a TV camera. . about the nature of our project as well as our arrival date in Paris. extroversion. . . however.And despite his hearty good health. Texas.' Therefore. keeping in mind that since these reflect only a limited contact. " In the course of completing the four one-hour interviews. a new frontier in the United States. Paris Bureau. they could hardly supply the bases for truly profound insight. since we wanted Dr. .His voice was strong and booming. Jung to actually sit in and witness the four one-hour filmed interviews.I had carefully mapped out the way so that I would encounter no difficulty in locating the Institute. the interpretation of dreams and the unconscious symbols called archetypes.Seemingly unconscious of the microphone around his neck and the camera lens staring across the room at him. . at that time the Chief of the Time Magazine. Jung 8 . 1957: "The old man with the wispy white hair and the wisely twinkling eyes leaned back in an armchair. and his bristly white mustache wiggled when he smiled. to cover the story. couched in a charming German accent. Freud and Adler. Carl Gustav Jung spoke through the smoke wreathing his head. and I began to see a dynamic quality in his mannerisms. at a virile 82. Jung's reactions to all the prepared questions. At the studio. . Each day. he replied that he somehow intuitively felt that these professors from Houston. Ernest Jones. Jung's performance was as rare as it was fascinating. explained the wise old man.As our conversation progressed. .At the suggestion of our University News Service.His interesting description of our effort appeared in the August 19.As we talked. but all this proved to have been unnecessary. . Jung that if true spontaneity could be achieved in these interviews. . and his colorful phrasing. was quite excellent. Dozier's story. . Jung signified that he understood. and in this case. it would be much more exciting and interesting to the student. although I had prepared the questions to be asked during the four one-hour interviews. explained in detail his theories on introversion. then the world is in fire and flames. Dr. had led him to assign a member of his Paris staff to report on the interviews.As a matter of fact. and that thread is the psyche of man . The stress on spontaneity as a highly desirable goal. At one point. prior to editing by Time. Jung. the educational nature of our effort continued to evoke genuine interest from him.' . but an individual who would give an extremely excellent account of himself in a spontaneous interview situation. 'hangs on a thin thread. . was making his first bow before an American audience since he lectured on psychology and religion at Yale in 1938. onlookers were impressed by the possibility that they might be witnessing the last certain speech of a great and masterful actor . in a rented Plymouth. There were so many exciting aspects of our venture that it would be impossible to chronicle all of them.The project. his English only slightly tinged with a German accent. a number of interesting things happened through interaction with Dr. It is not the reality of the hydrogen bomb we must fear. the persona. intuition. 'Well. a retiring genius who shuns public appearances because 'I have such a hell of a trouble to make people see what I mean. . the old man joked.Guided gently by Interviewer Richard Evans of the University of Houston's Department of Psychology. . I asked him why he had agreed to participate in these interviews. to which he immediately acknowledged his agreement. he did not even want to see them. At times he flailed out mildly at his fellow Titans. a member of the Paris staff of Time Magazine. we would have virtually no leeway for editing. Jung's English. Carl Jung for this kind of interview effort. the University of Houston. we would proceed to the site of the four interviews. Spontaneity can result in too much irrelevant and digressive conversation. . explained the abstruse fine points of the Jungian approach to the study of man's mind. I learned later that Dr. Dr. Mr. deliberately puffed his pipe. Jung was fond of driving all over Europe himself. his only public declamation in a decade. the last survivor among the Big Three founding fathers of modern psychology. 'The world. it became very evident that in Carl Jung we had not only a subject who had much to offer intellectually. the world hangs on the psyche of man. which appeared in the Houston Post. his expressiveness. created an important consideration to be taken into account. The following represents extracts from Mr. Jung quipped and sparkled. and he knew every nook and comer of this city. I suggested to Dr. however.The reader might be interested in some of these experiences. Jung ranged over the whole voluminous complexity of his theories and conclusions about the psyche. 1957 edition of Time. sat before a television camera in a glass-walled room in Zurich's Federal Institute of Technology. In these forthcoming interviews with him.I pointed this out to him.As Meaney fastened the microphone around Jung's neck and attached the lead-in wire. his eyes sparkled behind steel-rimmed spectacles. but what man does with it. and except for lectures in Zurich.In fact. ' . many hours are often edited down to a few hours in the completed film. preferring instead to hear the questions for the first time during the actual interviews. repeatedly corrected what he considered misinterpretations of his ideas. Again. every hour had to count. and then followed us to Zurich where he asked and was granted permission both by us and Dr. For an hour a day on four different days. Interestingly enough. . the study and understanding of man's psyche is more important than ever. in "Houston.As never before. Dozier began preparation for his piece for Time Magazine by first covering the interview held with Dr.I discovered that Dr. explaining that in commercial efforts of this type with more interview time available. . the Swiss Federal Institute of Technology. this is the first time anybody ever had me on a leash.Suppose certain fellows in Moscow lose their nerve. coupled with the one-hour time span allotted for each interview.' said Jung.
but we want to very carefully evaluate it. he drove back from the Institute with us. Dozier interrupted our chat to ask Jung really a very excellent question about some highly technical point which had been discussed in that day's interview. when confronted with this technique of presenting his ideas.Very firmly. casual manner about Dr. always showing me a new route. but he insisted that he wanted to complete it. We have filled requests for prints of them from literally all over the world. seems to suggest that this interview technique has definite promise as an educational tool. Jung and I conversed in an informal. Jung rejected this very fine representative of a widely‐ read news weekly by simply declaring.Every day Dr. but also seemed to have definite effect on attitudes and feelings about Jung. or whether he has to return it.On one occasion. for future consideration. each day as we would arrive at the Institute. In fact. Mrs. This study compared matched groups of students who read the transcripts of the interviews and saw the filmed interviews in terms of how much they learned beyond the normal reading of Jung's ideas from other sources. Richard I. A recent request. Jung began to tire somewhat. I could not help but feel that this illustrated that his acceptance of our invitation to be interviewed was a sincere gesture. proclaiming. I think that the process of educating a great number of students in this manner represented a genuine challenge to him. we are at the moment talking about something a little bit more important. This is being done under the terms of a grant. so his behavior in this case was undoubtedly not a specific reflection of hostility toward Time. Dr.He himself was not present at this performance.We were almost ready not to press for the completion of this last interview. recently awarded us by the National Science Foundation. Without burdening the reader at this time 1 with an elaborate discussion concerning the evaluations we made of these films. We heard that you have four such films. Mr. Much to our delight.Even some of the psychology students who had formerly been extremely ____________________ See Appendix B. citation of one study we did will suffice as an indication. and we want to repeat the performance in spring. Texas November 28. We found that by the fourth day Dr. of the success of the project. We received the following letter from his secretary. As is so often the case with those of us in the field of psychology. We are sure he will like it. to some extent. Secy. we quickly developed the films and began thinking of a means by which they could be made available to students and other interested groups. Houston 4. "Everyone knows that Jung never goes the same way twice. Jung asked me to thank you very much indeed for having sent the copy. was from a Jungian group in Perth in Western Australia. Jung would point the way. Jung would boldly lead the way up the stairs. This to us. Prof. inhospitable to Jung and his views seemed to develop a more favorable attitude toward Jung. This incident just very clearly demonstrated Jung's characteristic lack of concern about the usual channels of what might be called societal pressures about which most of us are accustomed to feel concern. Evans later?" Time Magazine had previously published some very excellent stories. Is that true? Thanking you again— Sincerely yours. We heard subsequently that he really was quite delighted with the way he appeared in these interviews. Evans University of Houston Cullen Blvd. Jaffé: Prof. paying close attention and making a note of the questions which he would be asking us at the close of the interview in process.Mr. the man. He should be grateful for a short reply. In fact. was most interesting and certainly. as I recall. Later we sent him a copy of one of the filmed interviews as a gift. Dozier of Time Magazine sat through all the interviews.Why don't you ask Dr. but we hope that he will come the next time. tiring me with his brisk pace. interest in these films has been very great. Jung's grandchildren and greatgrandchildren. for example. I want to tell you how very much we all liked to see your film. 9 . The results of our findings suggested that the interviews not only facilitated more effective communication of Jung's ideas.was the proud possessor of a very "snappy" Mercedes Benz. favorable to Jung. Dr. we are presently in the process of testing this possibility with much more thoroughness through an entire series of interviews being completed with a number of the most distinguished of contemporary psychologists. 1958 Dear Professor Evans. as I carefully attempted to lead him to an elevator for the trip to the second floor. "Sir. It was a great success. he cheerfully indicated to us that he was really enjoying this a great deal. Upon returning to the United States. of course. we are not only interested in getting a product.He had been sitting quietly in the back seat while Dr. He asks you whether the film is meant as a gift to him." Furthermore. (Mrs) Aniela Jaffé.
the word instinct in American psychology today can be simply defined as an unlearned response tendency. in reference to a learned response in the sense of being a habit. we have taken the liberty of synthesizing and reorganizing. we have attempted to organize the materials in the interviews in such a way as to facilitate maximum communication between reader and printed page. 'Whoever comes to me. the writer made an effort to probe with Dr.Her keen insight. Henry Murray about the late Dr. The order in which the questions and answers occurred has at times been changed for purposes of clarity. these expansions upon points already made in order to render the text more communicative and readable. and sensitive understanding of Jung's ideas and Jung as an individual are deserving of a special note of praise and admiration. 'takes his life in his hand. brooding on the portent of what was being said to him. To some degree. this is a function of Jung's German as it influences his English. to some extent at least. however. but as a psychology professor who was there for interviewing purposes. however. We have taken as few liberties as possible with the text. and in the book. pipe in hand. never hesitated to admit the provisional nature of the comments he had to make or to emphasize the difficulties and limitations of possible achievement in the future. were equally discernible in this very different context.Many of his responses must be understood in the context of the total answer to a given question. in this last interview. the kind that accompanies the broadest expansion of the intellect and the senses. Jung not as a patient seeking his help. and certain of Jung's ideas which developed as a reaction to Freudian thought.In the text of the interview material to follow. Moreover." I approached Dr. however. some records of Dr. indeed. and Super-Ego. possess humility.' he would say. In fact. the Atlantic Monthly. sponsored jointly by the New York Association of Analytical Psychology and the Analytical Psychology Club of New York. . and perhaps to open the door for some further discussion. Jung uses the term instinct. his earlier answers to questions posed in the first three interviews. a Jung Memorial meeting was held. take his expressions too literally. we actually asked Jung very few questions. at one point Jung is talking about the unconscious and indicates that we can't really know much about the unconscious because—". and.We may quote Dr. Jung's secretary. and the Freudian concepts of the Id. with every faculty in tune. Ego. Reflections ( 17 ).To cite one example. Freud. the effect of his manner of delivering his a'vows of uncertainty and suspense is not to diminish but to augment the patient's faith in his positions. invincible integrity. Jung.At this meeting we were particularly taken with the interesting and eloquent comments expressed by Dr. Murray when he says: " Jung was humble before the ineffable mystery of each variant self that faced him for the first time. Also. he mostly elaborates and expands. And he never hesitated to acknowedge his perplexity in the presence of a strange and inscrutable phenomenon. 1961. I sincerely hope that the reader will be able to interact with Jung as well as learn from Jung. allowing Jung to react to each part of it. it's really unconscious!" At such times we recall the twinkle in Jung's eyes as he attempts to poke a little humor in the direction of the interviewer. In New York City on December 1. . Memories. as well as to make plain that the patient must take the burden of responsibility for any decisions he might make. As a whole. the material embodied in the succeeding chapters faithfully reflects Jung's responses to our questions. because of Jung's sense of humor and his unique communication devices.' The effect of such a statement. Dreams. Jung into the events surrounding his initial involvement with Dr. For example. as he sat at his desk. thus. It was with much interest that I recently read in a national magazine.The same qualities ascribed to Jung in the quoted passage above. some of the questions have been subject to minor revision to make them more succinct. Jung's ideas presented by Frau Aniela Jaffé.In other words.In the last interview. As Jung responds to questions concerning psycho‐ sexual development. Also.In the pages that follow. perceptiveness. a surprising degree of insight is conveyed to the reader of the manner in which Jung disagreed with Freud. allowing him to speak quite freely and in an unguided manner. 10 . he may notice certain differences in the way an American psychologist would use specific terms and in the way these same terms are used by Dr. I don't believe in any instance have we materially modified Jung's answers to the questions in the first three interviews. this approach led to a certain amount of rambling and did not seem to elicit the succinct kind of responses which would have been most ideal. the reader will notice that now and then there is a tendency for a phrase to be used which at face value does not appear particularly meaningful. the areas in which they were in concordance. an attempt was made to trace the line of the skeletal structure of psychonalytic theory. Part II JUNG AND FREUD In this portion of the interviews. however. in the same interest. in perusing this material. Jung did. Carl Jung. the reader should not on many occasions. As the reader begins to delve into this material.Somewhat naturally.
Alfred Adler. Evans: In other words. Dr. who were—who had a sort of little society. what in your estimation led him to become interested in Dr. unlike yourself. and Dr. did not feel that this was exclusively an area of interest for the physician? This was something that might appeal to many? Dr. because it is not interesting to see that there is a reaction—a certain reaction—to a stimulus word. Freud was not a physician. a little too much stress on sexuality in his theories. Freud and how you happened to become involved with some of his work and ideas. who joined this group was Otto Rank. Adler. I thought "this is certainly a masterpiece—full of future. I was just beginning. But the interesting thing is why people could not react to certain stimulus words. in examining all these cases as carefully as possible. and I studied the results and had the idea that one should go once more over it. to give a review of the book. theologians. Evans: Another individual. Jung: He belonged.As you remember Dr. Jung: Oh no! I have met many people who represented different faculties who were interested in psychology. Evans: There were other individuals who also became interested in Dr. in December. which were not clear to me at all. Jung: Oh my. 2 Jung's Appraisal of Freudian Psychosexual Development Dr. and I know it would be of great interest to many of us to hear how you happened to hear of Dr. That is more or less uninteresting. and I soon found out that it was a matter of intimate personal affairs people were thinking of. Then. And then I began with experimental psychology or psychopathology. Sigmund Freud.I studied the book very attentively.All people who had to do with human beings were naturally interested. Dr.I also saw what he meant by symbolization. we all know that you began to feel that Dr.There were about twenty young doctors who followed Freud there. Dr. Jung. and he learned— he studied Freud's psychology in that circle. Freud might have laid. Evans: Then your group. including Freud. Dr. and Rank Dr.Was this regarded by your group at the time as something unusual. Adler. to have someone become interested in these ideas who was not by training a physician? Dr. or only react in an entirely inadequate way. yes! Mind you. of course. I applied the experimental association methods of Wundt. and I did not understand many things in it. psychic sexual energy. that I was asked by my chief. did not have the Doctor of Medicine degree. Evans: Dr. inevitably. Dr.So I made use of the association tests. Dr. Of course. as it was called then— now it is schizophrenia—and I sent the book to Freud. It was just when I began my career as assistant in the psychiatric clinic." I had no ideas then of my own. Then I began to study these places in the experiment where the attention. it was the year 1900.When did you first begin feeling this? 11 . soon after Freud's book about dream interpretation had come out. or which were in them. I saw that it was a matter of what Freud called repressions. but from other parts I got the impression that this man really knew what he was talking about. Adler. and he. Jung: Well. perhaps.I Jung Relating to Freud. and I found out that the important thing in them has been missed. many of us who have read a great deal of your work are aware of the fact that in your early work you were in association with Dr. and one of them was Dr. Jung: Yes! And then I wrote a book about psychology of dementia praecox. he was one of the young doctors that belonged to his surroundings there. writing to him about my association experiments and how they confirmed his theory thus far. some of the things in The Interpretation of Dreams ( 10 ) began to fall into place. from your word association studies. Adler was one who happened to be there. the same that had been applied in the psychiatric clinic in Munich.Nearly everyone thinks he is meant to be an analyst. every patient you have gets interested in psychology. that the inhibition came from the unconscious and hindered the expression in speech. they all had to do with the human mind and these people were naturally interested. pedagogues. even if they momentarily did not think of them when they were unconscious with other words. lawyers. Professor Bleuler. Dr.That is how my friendship with Freud began. or the capability of this person apparently began to waver or to disappear. as a matter of fact. Freud's work. Evans: One of the very fundamental ideas of the original psychoanalytic theory was Freud's conception of the libido as a sort of broad. Freud's work? Dr.
He had been a professor at Basel University. 12 . a sort of liberation of the mind of such taboos. or had perhaps not wanted to be influenced by Nietzsche? Dr. For instance. against the sort of tight. Dr. Jung: Yes. Freud. there are many big business men who are impotent because their full energy is going into money‐ making or dictating the roles to everybody else. you know. For instance. or something like that. he is a power-fable. you know. moreover. Dr. perhaps.He wanted to be the successful man. I could not deny the impulses of the sexual instinct. Jung: Yes. so-called. Dr. The woman is not his problem. They have enough food. it is certainly so that at the end of the Victorian age there was a reaction going over the whole world against the sex taboos. I couldn't help seeing it. I saw that it was really one-sided because.And from this I saw an entirely different psychology. Evans: There was a reaction. Dr. For instance. you see. food does much more.I could do that from the weight of my biological training. and Adler was interested in the power drive. That is much more interesting to them than the affairs of women. and other people are looking for another side. Freud's own personality? Dr. and after a while. Later on. the younger and weaker. was taking it from another direction— Dr. But food is difficult to obtain. that certain people are chiefly looking for this side. Dr. man is not only governed by the sex instinct. like a Don Juan. Dr. really belonged to the category of a Nietzschean mind. Dr. I overcame them. Food is the all-important interest and desire. as you began to look over Dr. however. sex being the main instinct and the dominating instinct in a more or less safe society.It is a sort of finesse. So in the second place after sex comes the power drive. So. in other words. you see. almost. or you make it an object of your desire to grab or to possess. Freud's emphasis on sexual drive. because I had studied Nietzsche.One didn't properly understand any more why or why not. but only concerning the power drive and our illusions as to motivations of our morality. then. his problem is how to dominate. Dr. Dr. Freud was either ignoring Nietzsche. Freud. in that way—on that side. Jung: Well. when you find out that somebody has a power-drive and their sex only serves the purpose of power. you know. I had naturally certain prejudices against this conception.They have their positions. Evans: Some observers have speculated that the patients whom Dr. Evans: So the sex drive is potentially the drive in that particular society most likely to be inhibited? Dr.It happened to be his main point.Dr.I knew the work of Nietzsche very well. Freud was a successful man. Jung: Well.It was a time critical of morality. reinforcing his ideas of a sexual libido. inhibited culture he was living in. Freud's patients. sexuality is apt to predominate because people are taken care of. and so it is the main interest. Adler. the inferior Dr. Evans: Yes. you know. and Freud belongs in that time. Nietzsche had liberated Europe from a great deal of such prejudices. when the social conditions are more or less safe. Dr. he was on top. or. Dr. and it seemed to you that this emphasis was not of sufficient universality to be assessed primary importance. Evans: So in a sense. Then in other societies—I mean civilized societies— the power drive plays a much greater role than sex. but built upon the power drive. Sex—that is something they can have everywhere —they are not tried. and even that is not the end. in a sense. in biology you see that the nutritional instinct is just as important as the sex instinct. Jung: In the beginning. Jung: Of course it was a personal prejudice. it is one of two ways how to deal with reality. it is quite natural. you see. believed to have been a rather "repressed" society. since these patients were a part of a Viennese society. Jung: Yes. Evans: Do you think it possible that Dr. so naturally I had studied his works. Jung: You mean his personal motivation? Dr.Although in primitive societies sexuality plays a role. a charming man whom all women think is the real hero of all hearts. if you are powerful enough already. Evans: So Dr. then it is quite probable that patients you meet have more or less all some sexual complex. Jung: Yes. When there is no question of hunting or seeking food. demonstrated an undue tendency to react to sexual frustration. there are other instincts as well. Freud saw in the Vienna of this period were so often sexually repressed that they may have been representative of a cultural type. and the air was full of talk about Nietzsche. Evans: You feel that it was a sort of function of Dr. naturally had a power complex. you began to think in terms of other cultures.And then.Either you make reality an object of pleasure. which was also psychology—a perfectly competent psychology. and so he was interested only in pleasure and the pleasure principle.
it is only in the masculine form. Already. he will be it to the daughter too. even in very small children. a mother recognizes the individuality of her child.So it is something else? He saw this only as a term for an archetypal way of behavior. He also means to his daughter because whatever he was to his mother. as you well know. In any case of a child's neurosis. These peculiarities express themselves in every way. but it doesn't come from the fact that they once had done such and such a thing in childhood. Jung. to his mother. They are imbued by the maternal or paternal atmosphere. It can be this way or that way. In Ego development and later character formation. They are particularly exposed to environmental difficulties such as the misfortune of the mother. say. and they develop. Now in order to compensate for this. Evans: With reference to the role of the parents in development. that is." because that was one of the outstanding examples of an incest complex. a child is not born tabula rasa as one assumes. Dr. in the orthodox psychoanalytic view.That is the first archetype Freud discovered. was not an Oedipus. literally taken. masturbation. Jung: Science consists to a great extent of meal talk. for instance. Such a child will miss. There is a definite complexity.It is at this level that the problem of premature sexuality relating to the opposite sex parent emerges. you must go to the parents.Or look at dreams and you find any amount of them. as a sort of hunger drive or drive for nutrition. you might say. in the movement chiefly. he doesn't need such a peculiar kind of terminology like "oral zone. must also be resolved. You look at Greek mythology and you find them. to Freud. or it will result in the formation of an Oedipus complex. in other words. Evans: In summary then. incest was so impressive that he chose the term "Oedipus Complex. Evans: Then you look at Freud's oral level of development in a less complicated sense without a sexual connotation? Dr. Dr. In the case of a man—a man's relation. the peculiarities express themselves in all childish activities—in the way he plays. a father. any amount of them. though. They are so much in the mental atmosphere of the parents. and that give the child his character. The child is born as a high complexity. Freud saw poor resolution of such problems as being rather serious. For instance." These interests express themselves in a typically childish way in children. but that it is only one of many archetypes? 13 . in that the individual encounters a series of problems in sequence which he must resolve in order to progressively mature. They will do the same to the anus. because children have no psychology of their own. you see. when I was in school. That is very often so of illegitimate children. you know. frustration centering around the problem of toilet-training. so much a participation mystique with the parents. Dr. and the foremost interest is to feed. Evans: To proceed further. early frustration arises. Dr. In early childhood a character is already there.He thought that this WAS the archetype. what the ears do. You see. if you observe carefully. Another rather fundamental point in the development of the ego in the orthodox psychoanalytic view is that the oral level is followed by another critical level. etcetera." Of course. the first and the only one. So they are interested in what the eyes do. they will do whatever they please with their genitals. Jung: I think. and in all things they see that affect the body. and they express these influences in their childish way. "So-and-so punished with two hours because he was toying with his genitals during the religious hour.Dr. take an illegitimate child. how far you can bore into the nose with your finger. mind you. For instance. for instance.At this level another crucial.It appears that one of the earliest problems the individual seems to have centers around. in the things he is interested in. like the earlier ones mentioned.It is quite astonishing what you can hear in this respect. There are children who are tremendously interested in all moving things.This problem. with reference to the oral level of development. and so. they become terribly autoerotic. it is just as if they were choosing or nominating a part of their body for a father. one of the central parts of psychosexual development in orthodox psychoanalytic theory is the Oedipal level of development. Jung: Well. Dr. one can use such terminology because it is a fact that children are exceedingly interested in all orifices of the body and in doing all sorts of disgusting things. It is the character that is doing it. an anal level of development. with existing determinants that never waver through the whole life. and sometimes such a peculiarity keeps on into later life. there is much attention paid to what Freud called psychosexual development. and there our professor of religion had noted. I go back to the parents and see what is going on there. in earliest childhood. that when Freud says that one of the first interests. Jung: That is just what I call an archetype. represent some of the first frustrations for the infant. a substitution for the father. even criminal. because women have an incest complex too which. Evans: Then you believe. or oral zone experiences. Later on they express themselves in other peculiarities which are still the same. and all the complications. and if you want to know something about possible reasons. you prefer to look at it rather literally. including weaning. Now it is equally true that people who have such prevalences also develop a peculiar character. they put it into the mouth— Dr. however. To Freud. etcetera. there are many such archetypes. we once stole the class book where all the punishments were noted. primitive oral satisfactions.Of course. First. that the Oedipus complex is not as important an influence in itself as Freud did. you see a tremendous difference. Dr. Dr.
namely. namely. in a sense. The nests are built just to suffice for a certain number of young. Dr. In Paris there was Pierre Janet who worked out another side of the understanding of unconscious reactions. and it is true. and finds its solution in such and such a way. There is a mother. the most elemental form. but that happens. For instance. etc. the preservation of the royal blood is always a sort of attempt at the highly appreciated incestuous restriction of the numbers of ancestors. the father. The end is already anticipated. the middle. and a 6-system. An archetype always is a sort of abbreviated drama. No one is hampered by one's self. that's pretty painful. and Super-Ego Dr. Oedipus gives you an excellent example of the behavior of an archetype.And those are developments beyond the incest complex and against the incest complex. that the Pharaoh had a daughter from his sister. In China. That is what we can see. there is a son. particularly incestual sexuality. and among the Egyptian Pharaohs. you would not feel hampered in any way if there were not a law against it. you go to someone and you say. That is only a hint to what the archetype can do. That's all wrong. the daughter. talked a great deal about the unconscious. That is an archetype. and the end. you know. because this is loss of ancestors. a rather commonly held belief. There is no end of stories. quarter marriages. For instance. That is the reason why. Ego.This is something that goes parallel with Freud's whole idea of the psychopathology of everyday life. Now. You see that the memory fades when there is a complex reaction or block. because the unconscious is something which is really unconscious! So you have no object—nothing. how can it develop? These things have developed in a time long before there was any idea of a child—say of my sister. he may react to his wife as he did to his mother. Now Freud came to the concept of the unconscious chiefly on the basis of the same experience I have had in the association experiment.This is something you can observe in the association experiment. In all of the early levels of civilization you find the marriage laws. Dr. and then married his granddaughter.It is only one of the many. The first form. that must be explained too.For instance." For example. if the Oedipus pattern were really predominant. the resistance against it. many ways of behavior. it is hard. It begins in such and such a way. from the grandmother. are to some extent repeatedly relived. may be searching for a father. Evans: Going still further into the development of Dr. is that the man can marry his cousin on the maternal side. And that's what he never could admit to me. you know. This will be repeated over and over again..You see. Freud is always inclined to explain these things by external influences. you know. middle.You only can make inferences because you can't see it. extends to such and such a complication. There are four systems. in the archetype. that people reacted—they said things—they did things—without knowing that they had done it or had said it. and end are just the same. Dr. is that. as she looks for a husband. so there is a whole story of how such a situation develops and to what end it leads finally. There is not only the one thing that shows its compensation. dynamic psychological theory. Freud's theory. there is the beginning. he is only giving the contrary—namely. Freud speaks of the incest complex just in the way you describe. they are all given in one. and so you have to create a model of this possible structure of the unconscious. But there is a compensation. Jung: As soon as research comes to a question of the unconscious. namely.Now. when the young man gets married. In the way they build the nests.Now if sexuality is predominant.Dr. at least. you go through the whole list of words. which you acknowledge as a significant factor in the development of many of your own early ideas.It is always a whole situation. though he had no systematic. "I congratulate you". yet the unconscious meant them to say just that thing. The next form is that the man can only marry his cousin in the second degree. but that is a complicated question. Freud. there is a father. exogamic laws. but he omits completely the fact that with this Oedipus complex. we would have been suffocated in incest half a million years ago.He was a first class observer.That is the simple fact upon which Freud based his idea of the unconscious. This appears to be the heart of what the early Freudians were theorizing. There is no time. Jung: Yes. You see. take the instinct in birds of building their nests. You know this plays a very great role in the history of human civilization. but I studied with him while in Paris and he very much helped form my ideas. sometimes people cannot remember afterward what they did or what they said in a moment when a stimulus word hits the complex. you see. 3 Jung's Appraisal of Freud's Structural Concepts: Id.For instance. it was a royal prerogative as late as the Caanite kings in Persia. things becomes necessarily blurred. On the contrary. they just make ridiculous mistakes.Likewise. the child's early family behavior patterns with the mother. Now. again within the confines of orthodox psychoanalytic theory. he married that daughter and had a child with her. Freud refers very little to Pierre Janet. Evans: To discuss more specifically Freud's concept of the Oedipus complex. time and again. his is a sort of physiological theory of the unconscious phenomena. 14 . when people make a mistake in speech or they say something which they didn't mean to say.In the word association reproduction experiment. there are still traces of both a 12-system and of a 6-system. of course. Because that was royal prerogative. or he may be searching for someone like his mother. Jung: No. does this type of recapitulation of the very early Oedipus situation fit in with your conceptions? Dr. about how people can betray themselves by saying something they didn't mean to say at all. and can be regarded as a "repetition compulsion. systems of 8 and 12. it is a timeless condition where beginning. That is the usual form. when you want to express your sympathy at a funeral.
ME. anybody in an emotion will say and do things which he cannot vouch for. they make me do something which I don't want to do at all." simply "brought it. that is again such a case as before. Jung: If man has an ego at all. Dr. On the contrary. or if you succeed in touching upon one of my complexes. Dr. of course. one of the most extreme views concerning such early influences was advanced by Otto Rank.He spoke of the birth trauma and suggested that the trauma of being born would not only leave a very powerful impact on the developing ego. You see. A child definitely begins in a state where there is no ego. Dr. When you ask—who has brought this thing here—the Negro will say "Ibrought it. He must excuse himself of a mistake. apparently." the Id. Dr. and about the fourth year or before. They certainly disappear! Dr. was the idea of the conscious. and I don't know how this happened. you can observe it to a certain extent with a child. and suddenly we can't think of any other thing. in the first place. do you take literally Dr. That is Freud's view too. I wasn't there! Feeding was invented very much longer ago than even sex. sure enough. For instance. but certainly if I am pushed beyond. they have a certain autonomy. Dr. instead of instinct. a fellow who knows his stuff quite well—the professor asks him and he cannot say a word. Jung: I should say that it is very important for an ego that it is born. instinctual "structure. and not because they were repressed. another part of Dr. Jung: Nobody knows where instincts come from. Evans: Dr. it is the spatial separateness that induces. Jung: Well. Dr. of course. I. the ego is continuously building up.I think there have been cases in my observations where there was no repression from above. myself. it is not ever a finished product—it builds up. Dr. Yes.For example. Evans: Dr. Their sexuality was invented. in this case. Evans: Could you give us some rather specific examples of what you mean by cases where instinct does not function? Dr. they interfere and speak themselves instead of helping me to say what I want to say. no year passes when you do not discover a new little aspect in which you are more ego than you have thought. the child develops a sense of ego—"I. All mental contents having a certain feeling tone that is emotional have the value of an emotional affect— have the tendency to become autonomous. you see. Freud's theory. However. Jung. So the question is only—where do those cases come from where instinct does not function. Dr. then his habit hasn't functioned." There is. They have discovered the concept of autonomy in that these contents that disappear have the power to move independently from my will. Then. out of this unconscious. you see. Evans: And this then is independent of any of the.So we don't know where the instinct comes from. because we can study the cases where instinct does not function. but he says it sinks down because it is helped. Words fail me. It is a story that was played millions of years ago. you know. but would have residual influence throughout the life of the individual. I'm supposed to be able to react to you. Evans: We haven't seen you very perplexed yet. which is unconscious and undeveloped. or they withdraw in the moment that I want to use them. Freud suggested that this ego resulted from the organism's contact with reality. Evans: To continue. MYSELF. Jung: Yes. you might say. but besides them. this thing here.Consider a thing that is absolutely controlling which fails to function. you see. it sinks below the level of consciousness and thus becomes unconscious. there has been much discussion about how certain experiences in the early years influ ence the formation of the ego. and how and why it was invented.There is a certain depotentiation of the tension of consciousness. which is a habitual form of activity. to which we have already alluded. then it's worse. this is highly traumatic. a certain identity with the body. that became very important. they emphasize always the body. when you fall out of heaven.Ah.It is not very easily understood where all these primitive drives—all these instincts—come from. you know.That was my first point of difference with Freud. he was non compos mentis." no accent on the "I. They are there and you find them. Dr. Jung. this given object. That is something within our reach. it is repressed from above. you know.There can be such cases. you know. I don't know. those contents that became unconscious had withdrawn all by themselves. Jung: I am a good example of psychology. to speculate about such an impossibility. pressures on the consciousness as Freud suggested? Dr. You see. Either they appear when I want to say something definite. Otto Rank's position that the birth trauma has a profound psychological effect on the individual? 15 . when you ask primitives." Then if you say—why have YOU brought it—he will say. Later on there are mental differences and other personal differences of all sorts. a man who writes fluently suddenly makes a ridiculous mistake.Do you accept this conception of the ego? Dr. Evans: However.So the identity with the body is one of the first things which makes an ego. a collection of animal drives. that is your question. Dr. Freud suggested that the individual is bom under the influence of what he called the Id. I wasn't there when it was invented. an Ego emerges. the concept of an ego. there are also the cases that show that the unconscious contents acquire a certain independence. that is. when you ask me something. Also. It is quite ridiculous. take any other form of habitual activity. there are lots of other things. you will see that I become absolutely perplexed. So. ME. For instance. perhaps a product of frustration as reality is imposed on the individual.
between insects and plants.You see. you see. Jung: Of course it influences you. so the word has lost its meaning.Of particular importance in the race unconscious is Jung's contention that Archetypes. the way in which a man should behave is expressed by an archetype. But because we have no means of comparison. He will apply certain symbiotic phenomena. at the same time. A great deal of education goes through story‐ telling. "Thou shalt not." Well. gave me a motive to study the archetypes. and two older men act out before the eyes of the younger all the things they should not do. Then they say. his heart. Jung: Yes. that is the super-ego. the super-ego was to account for the "moral restrictive" function of the ego. and the Self. there is a Greek saying that "it is beautiful to die in youth. You see. the primitives tell such stories. There are no other similar beings like man. like the Decalogue. dynamic." Philosophy. "Now that's exactly the thing you shall not do. Evans: But you don't take this as a literal psychic event? Dr. You may have a great difficulty seeing it because you cannot compare it. In these interviews. inherited in what might best be described as a quasi-Lamarckian sense. Evans: In his later writing. The archetypes are. which to Freud is the unifying core of human personality. you say. Jung: Well. each of which had a unique quality. you know what a behavior pattern is. which. If that were the case. of course. an inherited scheme of functioning. For instance.If you believe in Schopenhauer's philosophy. otherwise. all his organs. and you cannot say "it is a trauma".Dr. but that is the eternal truth in man himself. And who in Hell would have invented the Decalogue? That is not invented by Moses. but the most beautiful of all things is not to be born. a certain pattern of behavior which is expressed in the form of archetypal images. this is an event that happens to everybody that exists—that each man once has been born. Jung postulated both a personal unconscious and a race or group unconscious. his liver." and that is always supported by mythological tales. a certain way of functioning. Jung: Don't you see. the Ego. That's the origin of mythology. Dr.In contrast to Freud's development of a single unconscious. 4 The Unconscious: Archetypes Dr. because he checks himself. however. following its pattern. and his brain will always function in a certain way. there could be no balance in the individual. Therefore. Jung explicitly explains archetypes and related concepts such as Persona. particularly in his earlier work. Dr. you cannot even speak of such a thing. Evans: Built-in prohibitions which Freud thought might be partly acquired and partly "built-in. And so man has.The reader will note that Freud's concept.However. the way in which a weaver bird builds its nest. Mythology is a pronouncing of a series of images that formulate the life of archetypes. It is a general fact. are the crucial determiners of human development. Jung: Yes.Broadly speaking.At this time would you please elaborate on the concept. we are necessarily unconscious about the whole conditions. For instance. "it is a hellish trauma to be born. was the source of all pleasure-seeking. They are instinctual images that are not intellectually invented. or archetypal forms. it is just a fact. in addition to the ego. he must have it almost entirely within himself. we could—I don't know what. is essentially what Jung means by the Self. 16 . that are articulate. that could give an account of their functioning.That term was the Super-Ego. namely that codex of what you can do and what you cannot do. Freud introduced a term to describe a particular function of the ego. it is just a lack of epistemology. Part III THE UNCONSCIOUS Perhaps the area of greatest concentration and analysis in Jung's theory is the area of the unconscious." Another way is they tell them all of the things they should not do. they call together the young men. perhaps his most controversial contribution. innate behavior potentials. They are inherited patterns of behavior. Dr." Dr.Everybody who is born has undergone that trauma. That. Dr. you see. Freud doesn't see the difference between the "built-in" and the acquired. that man is born with a certain functioning. because you cannot observe a psychology that hasn't been born —only then you could say what the birth trauma is. Until then. instinctual urges within the individual and the domain of repressed material as well. They are always there and they produce certain processes in the unconscious that one could best compare with myths. of course. Evans: You mentioned earlier that Freud's Oedipal situation was an example of an archetype. because I began to see that the structure of what I then called the collective unconscious was really a sort of agglomeration of such typical images. archetype? Dr.That is an inherited form in him. the Ego. It is quite certain.
to the conscious development of Christianity. though. because it showed me the development of our unconscious relation to the collective unconscious and the variations our consciousness has undergone. Now this is a whole situation and it makes an archetype. that should be taken into account. Latin and Greek. The Gnostics lived in the first. And the next question I asked myself was. And now. I found to my amazement that it was alchemy. Nobody takes care of the water supply. the last editions dated in the middle or the end of the sixteenth century. such phenomena as in Hitler. Everybody makes a peculiar philosophy of it when he comes across it naively. And we can construct or even predict the unconscious of our days when we know what it has been yesterday. nobody thinks of examining the meat or anything like that. For instance. you don't know what the situation is. that which is understood to be a history of chemistry. in the teachings of the Catholic church. and you behave in a certain way you have not foreseen at all—you do something quite strange to yourself. one could almost say.And that is done through the archetype that is concerned. and we've got to understand these things. and that was the first thing actually that I saw. "This is a phenomenon. The moment the king rode into the ford. And that archetype has now a suggestive effect upon you. It was. I cannot tell you in detail about alchemy. for instance. not a few very important ones. of course. like Narcissism. like the archetype of the ford—the ford to a river. There is danger and something is going to happen. you are in the water. our ancestors have done so and so. in our days we have such and such a view of the world. It is not simple. and you say. quite a long stretch. we should give it an entirely different name. It is the basic of our modern way of conceiving things. but the result was most satisfactory. To me. In Greece. Of course. still couldn't come together about whether they wanted to kill the king or not. of course.They were concerned with the problem of archetypes. the Gnostics. It was a peculiar spiritual movement or a philosophical movement. but in the unconscious we have a different one. I did something which I wouldn't have expected and I couldn't have intended.Actually. they thought. and they teach us how to behave. It is also called Hermetic Philosophy. That we can see through the example of the alchemistic philosophy that behaves to the medieval consciousness exactly like the unconscious behaves to ourselves. it has a different name. For instance. when you have lived in primitive circumstances. I went into such situations where I was amazed afterwards.They are archetypes of behavior. you get into a situation. difficult to know where to begin. For instance. and there is an ambush or a water animal. you know. And then I read the whole accessible literature. Jung: Quite spontaneous. and that naturally led me on to a profound study of them. It is just as though."—Yes. say a crocodile or something like that. looks when you look upon them with broader perspective. by Jove.One day I was in the Sudan and it was really a very dangerous situation. That is a psychical phenomenon. Of course. nothing less than that. when we suddenly are confronted by the problems of the collective unconscious which were the same two thousand years ago. The problem is how you escape.They show us how to do— They have their legends— And that is Christian mythology. which I didn't recognize at the moment at all.But you only come to an understanding of these things when you understand the background from which it springs. 17 . It is the mental work of 1. and after deliberating.I studied it because it was enormously interesting. the movement of archetypes. and of Americans. Maybe from today you look back into the past and you see how the present moment has evolved out of the past. this was the right moment. as Narcissism was. and therefore. it has been an enormous problem because it is a factor that has determined the fate of millions of European people. For instance. models of fine men.So you see. and doesn't know that those are structural elements of the unconscious psyche. we have a famous case in our Swiss history of the King Albrecht. Most of the texts are no more published since the middle ages. and so shall you do.That has given me no end of work. a particular philosophy. which is a necessity because man is not complete if he is not conscious of that aspect of things. our foolish psychology.I was always looking for something in between. They called themselves philosophers. This is a wonderful picture of how the development of archetypes. Or. very important for our further development and for our well-being. there was Theseus and there was Heracles. and made a peculiar philosophy of it. in which there is stored up all they could make out about the nature of the archetypes. are statements about the inner mythological process.Nobody can deny that he has been influenced by the war. something that would link that remote past with the present moment. you suddenly are seized by an emotion or by a spell. that conveys just as little as the term alchemy. in the primeval forest among primitive populations. of our Christian philosophy. of course. Or such and such a hero has done so and so. there are several thousand saints. then you know that phenomenon. Several times when I was in Africa. though we are not prepared to admit that problem. "Why do we let him abuse us?" Then they killed him. You have to cross a ford. It is just as if the alchemistic philosophy— That sounds very curious. but everyone simply states. because it is such an enormously extended field. of many poets. where in the world has anybody been busy with that problem?" I found that nobody had except a peculiar spiritual movement that went together with the beginning of Christianity.. as if a terrific epidemic of typhoid fever were breaking out. You are seized with a certain spell and you do a thing that is unexpected. "Now. some texts are in Greek. Now that is a whole situation. but one doesn't understand it.700 years. you know. "That is typhoid fever— isn't that a marvelous disease!" It can take on enormous dimensions and nobody knows anything about it.His murderers were hiding behind him for the whole stretch from Zurich to the Royce. it is as if it were right under the threshold of consciousness. who was murdered in the ford of the Royce not very far from Zurich. I became more and more respectful of archetypes. Dr.—It was the parallel development. It was. in a peculiar way that's foolish.So the statements of every religion. there is an enormous factor. But I was seized with a spell. etc. to take a more concise archetype. and I wanted to know what was in between that time and today. of the whole psychology of the middle ages. because this was the moment they were seized. of gentlemen. That was all Hitler's doing—and that's all psychology. second and third centuries. why the being's unconscious is concerned with these mythological images. you know. and that is your model. you know. So you see. "Murder!" They shouted. namely. all in Latin. Evans: Could this also be described as spontaneous? Dr.
help me to get rid of that woman.It is my understanding that. It is like a seizure. Evans: Dr. which you are now identifying in terms of sex. Jung. And you can lay hands on their bases. male or female. This is true because when you see that the man is caught by a certain type of woman in a certain very specific way. It is a masculine image in a woman's mind which is sometimes quite conscious. in all societies. Evans: Now would you say the number of such archetypes are limited or predetermined. Jung: Well. We know and we see that there is a behavior. that she is a hell of a business. You see that girl.Is this again part of the inherited nature of the individual? Dr. expressing the fact that a man has a minority of feminine or female genes. Dr. for instance. as it were. then you can divine and even prognosticate possible developments. The way the anima is described is exceedingly typical. this is a special term— It is the manifestation of the situation of the unconscious. Dr. and she is badly disappointed when she marries that particular "letter. he could discover it. that is constantly present. to be even a bit more specific. you know. and it can suddenly seize you. It can be expressed in this way or that way. Jung: They don't become. a certain kind of violence. 5 The Unconscious: General Conceptualizations Dr. we are born into a pattern. Jung: Well. We are a structure that is preestablished through the genes. he has been captured! He sees that she is no good at all. and works as a female in a man. you are caught. that is such a case. I tell you. They are to begin with. That is something that doesn't appear or disappear in him. without knowing it. It has an autonomy. doctor. we have no means of comparison. for instance. those two. but it is called into life the moment that woman meets a man who says the right things. He says. Jung: Oh no! It just is a symbol of the—the symbol. anima and animus. sings a high C. and he tells me so. and that each man carried female within himself. no matter what he is. It has all happened because of the archetype of the anima. you know. Dr. And after‐ ward you may discover that it was a hell of a mistake. you know. you see. it is not a modem invention. You have a certain image in yourself. I don't know what I do know about it. or is intelligent enough to see that the woman of his choice was no choice." Well. It is nothing concise. and no man is born without it. for instance." He can't though. You see. this is a bit complicated. you have suggested that in our society. Then because he says it. or can the number be increased? Dr.The behavior of any bird or insect follows a pattern. etc. and he is like clay in her fingers. and that is the same with us. Evans: To recapitulate then. such as your earlier example of a bird building a nest. our biological-physiological function follows a pattern. you know that he is caught by the anima. Those are particularly well-founded archetypes. when you know a person is possessed by an archetype. something which is my personal subjective view. Then the whole thing will have such and such complications and such and such developments because it is typical. When a man discovers it in our days. for instance. to pursue our discussion of the unconscious further. So. we are a pattern. or there is a behavior of panic. say like incest. of power. When a man sings very high.Is that how you intended to describe it? Dr. falling in love at first sight.Then you also suggest that somehow these symbols become "inborn" and. of the woman—of any woman. there are symbols that in a sense direct or determine what a man does. in which there are many variations. Dr. that's the archetype of the animus." Dr.You see. he thinks he is crazy—really crazy. It is like the girl—any girl. what you would find in the dream would not necessarily be an image or symbol of what has happened in the past to the individual. looked at from the unconscious. The anima is an archetypal form. "inbred. or at least a good imitation of your type. though he thinks it is all his soul. it is all true and he is the fellow. in part. And they overlap. We are only deeply unconscious of these facts because we live by all our senses and outside of ourselves. because the archetype in itself is completely unconscious and you only can see the effects of it. Evans: To be more specific. Jung: It is a biological order of our mental functioning. the archetype is just a higher order of an instinctual pattern. As early as the 16th century. for instance. Those are areas. Dr. The same is the case with the animus. You can see. in your view of the unconscious.I wonder if you could elaborate perhaps even more specifically on these terms? Take the term "anima" first. Evans: Now Dr.You see. or L'Atlantide by Benoît—c'est la femme fatale. the Humanists had discovered that man had an anima.That is the archetype.You see.You see. it is so blurred. you have used the concepts. Jung. Then if I ask 18 . as. a man is quite capable. sometimes not quite conscious. she thinks he must have a very wonderful spiritual character. let us take the particular situation of a dream and its interpretation. Dr. Jung. Man has a certain pattern that makes him specifically human. If a man could look into himself. they are.They said it. and often you cannot say where the one form begins or ends. or there is a behavior of violence. I don't know if you know Rider Haggard's She. "For God's sake. the archetype is a force. and instantly you get the seizure.
Jung: Yes. There I tried to formulate the experiences that are more or less observable in cases where consciousness is exposed to unconscious data. that can be a serious determinant of your behavior. how do we know about it?" But just as an illustration let us consider a particular individual. But the moment you transcend your personal sphere and come to your unpersonal determinant—say you respond to a political question. then you have collective dreams. BUT you omit entirely such and such a point. because the question had to be pursued to such an end. collective. Dr.Would this individual in India. he is also supposed to behave in a certain way so that it is plausible that he is a professor.But these things are always a bit difficult or disagreeable. Jung would say. "If it's unconscious. and in most cases people would be probably less neurotic if they could admit the things. Evans: Now if the unconscious acts on the present situation. and a very important factor. And so when one is a professor. where the unconscious is considered as an autonomous factor that has to be taken seriously. and there are examples to prove it. etc. that they have a certain way of presenting themselves. You belong to a certain political party. . be in many respects similar to the unconscious of a particular individual who. looking at this in broad motivational terms.I saw. Jung: It may be. But that is not the main thing.There are certain doubts. or to any other social question which really matters to you—then you are confronted with a collective problem. if we could examine his unconscious. "Is it that personal unconsciousness which is characteristic for a certain person. 19 . or something of the sort.I noticed with my patients. "persona. Evans: Now the distinction between the personal unconscious and the collective unconscious. or to a certain confession. It is a factor in its own dignity. for instance. you have to do with that personal unconsciousness for quite a while.For instance. In 1918. he has good beside manners.I wonder if you would mind elaborating a bit more about how you construe this term. where one doesn't say any more or under-value the unconscious by assuming that it is nothing but discarded remnants of consciousness.Then . Dr. It was because nobody had had a similar experience. these doubts come to the forefront. When you have a dream about it. then you are dissociated. it was published in French and nobody understood it. collective convictions. "Which unconscious?" We say. He may even identify himself with it. I wrote a disquisition about the relation between the ego and the unconscious. There is no question and it doesn't appear. Jung: It is a practical concept we need in elucidating people's relations.In treatment. If you are unconscious about certain things that ought to be conscious. the treatment of neuroses. take a doctor. Evans: Looking at the unconscious in this way. To pursue that end. and then only when dreams come that show the collective unconscious can it be touched upon. Would there be quite a lot of equivalence between the unconscious of a particular individual who was raised in one culture. so there is always a certain amount of repression. and the collective would be universal—the unconscious realm composed of elements which are the same in all men? Dr. For instance. As long as there is material of a personal nature. So the persona is partially the result of the demands society has. that what the unconscious has to say is so disagreeable that one prefers not to listen. Jung: Yes. as you say." This seems to be highly relevant to the daily living of the individual. We are very much influenced by them. and another individual who was raised in an entirely different culture? Dr. That is the way the unconscious looks at the thing. has lived in Switzerland all his life? You spoke earlier about these universals. Dr. Evans: Another very interesting concept or idea in your work is the "persona. to interferences or intrusions. you get collective dreams. Jung: Well. the psyche has collective problems. one has to take the unconscious seriously and consider it as a real factor that can determine human behavior to a very considerable degree. that question is also complicated because when we speak of the unconscious. you know. however. Now such a man is hampered all over the place. inconvenient. but these are doubts in the unconscious. the reason why nobody understood it. He has a certain way. . Then you are a man whose left hand never knows what the right is doing. Dr. Evans: You have talked in your writings about a personal unconsciousness as being one kind of unconscious. I must admit I have certain doubts. but when you get to a question." Dr. for example. When I wrote that phamphlet in 1918. "Now are you really quite convinced of it. particularly with people that are in public life. not in the moment when I tell you.myself. and counteracts or interferes with the right hand. "It is all very well what you are stating. to a problem which is no more merely personal but also collective. He must appear in a certain form. one who has been brought up in a culture such as the culture of India. is that the personal could be more involved with the immediate life of the individual. and he behaves as one expects a doctor to behave. let us say. you have to deal with the personal unconscious. Dr. The main thing is that they are really unconscious. and believe that he is what he appears to be. this effect of the unconscious is not something which is a result of repression in the way the orthodox psycho‐ analyst looks at it at all. because it can create most horrible disturbances. or else people won't believe that he is a doctor. then. It is as if the unconscious says. Dr. Now if there arises a matter of personal conflict. the collective unconscious isn't touched upon." well. for a certain individual?" Dr.
For instance. They happen unconsciously. I am continuing writing that paper in my mind without knowing it. I'm not conscious of them. He also has his particular manner and. While I am trying. of course. Then you see in the gestures or in the expression in the face that there is what one calls "une arriere pensée. namely. they are just dishonest. But even those people wouldn't be capable of knowing what is going on in their unconscious. Such a performance of the persona is quite all right. In spite of the fact that people will assure you that this is all quite real and quite honest. I'm never wholly conscious of myself. they contradict themselves all the time. because the way you are creates certain situations with people in your relations. They think they're all one. others know him only for the other side. say in political movements or in spiritual movements. the ego is on the one side and the self is on the other side. all the time a myth is played in the unconscious. but B knows of A. C. or even at the moment I am not conscious of them. You can see them. the more people are neurotic. it's just an ordinary dissociation of personality.In cases of dissociation of personality. or a part of myself thinks of God knows what. or is he the man that appears in public? It is a question of Jekyll and Hyde. Quite a lot of things happen. 20 . people can't help noticing that at home you are quite different from what you appear to be in public. So the persona is a certain complicated system of behavior which is partially dictated by society and partially dictated by the expectations or the wishes one nurses oneself. but when it is a matter of "self. the more the people are neurotic. is more or less portrayed or represented. would you say that the individual may even have more than two personae? Dr. but there are cases where people have up to five different personalities. Jung: In ordinary cases. and that is covered by the term "ego". what you know to be yourself. perhaps a dream which I had last night. or as one likes to appear. I am conscious of what I say. say in dreams. There may be a third personality. but they are rare. myself. at the same time there are unconscious processes that continue. as long as you know that you are not identical to the way in which you appear. archetypal ideas—this dream of archetypal ideas that goes on through one individual through the centuries. people dreamt of the great change. of the things that go on in themselves. B is relatively in the position of the self. a parson. Dr." Yet he is unconscious of it. I may say or use words and can't remember at all having used those words. Then you don't know—now which is the real man? Is he the man as he is at home or in intimate relations. but he behaves also in another way which combines with his persona that is forced upon him by society in such a way that his fiction of himself. Some know him only for one side. or if you are clever. or of such and such people I have seen. it is a compromise with what one likes to be. his idea about himself. of a trip I'm going to take. a myth that extends over centuries. let's take our example again of B who knows A. great individual differences. Jung: Well. namely. For instance." because that is only your empirical self. they are it. Now this is not the real personality. but A who doesn't know B. that that man has something up his sleeve. People who don't know it stumble over it in the end. They deny that they are like that. in the immediate observation of the individual." something behind consciousness. the unconscious is in the possession of consciousness. in fact." then it is a matter of personality and is more complete than the ego. you see. because the ego has a more complete knowledge. I am conscious of myself.On the other side. but they are like that. in the time before the Reformation. and these two situations don't chime. runs into the general societal expectations. but A doesn't know of B. Evans: Actually. Dr.When I say "self.That is a different case. Jung: Yes. Evans: You also use the term "self. that doesn't know of the two others. That is the reason why such great transformations could be predicted. the ego is supposed to be the representative of the real person. the unconscious personality which is in possession of everybody—not in possession— Very often it is just the other way around. they are not conscious of the fact that while they live a conscious life. In that case one would say the ego is more on the side of B. Jung: We can't afford very well to play more than two roles.One calls that a systematic dissociation. because the ego only consists of what you are conscious of. Now you see. of course." then you mustn't think of "I. When I make gestures. And then there are situations that clash. or he may be.For instance. one that comes into daylight in the great movements. they don't know it. yet only to a certain extent. Take. And the more that is the case. in contradistinction to the chaotic or unsystematic dissociation you find in schizophrenia. So any amount of unconscious things occur in my conscious condition. to elaborate an argument. for instance. Really it is like a continuous stream. and A is a split-off personality. and the more that it is pronounced. Evans: Very rare? Dr. They get neurotic because they have two different ways. "What are you really thinking of? You are thinking all the time something else.You have finally the feeling. for instance.Or say when I am writing a paper. in the case where B knows of A." Now the word "self"—does it have a different meaning than "ego" or "persona"? Dr. Namely. well. There are. and inasmuch as they are unconscious of themselves.Occasionally there is such a difference that we would almost be able to speak of a double personality. You can discover these things. and you can ask him. for instance. Dr.There are such cases in the literature. but if you are unconscious of this fact.For instance. Dr. but everybody sees that they are two. while I am talking. yet it is not. There are individuals who have an amazing knowledge of themselves. the one person—call him A— doesn't know of the existence of the person B. then you get into sometimes very disagreeable conflicts. Evans: What is the difference between the term "ego" as you see it and the term "persona"? Dr.
in the culture of the East. in their unconscious minds. and it is always used in that sense. For instance. a world scheme. which doesn't mean that I believe that God is the self or that the self is God. very catastrophic. but there it has been lost now and is thought of as a mere sort of allegorical. You know. French and Anglo-Saxon. I am not whole in my ego as my ego is but a fragment of my personality. the sister. Hitler was just a hero myth. . something very big. the mother-in-law. the center of a mandala is not the ego. Evans: This is of course a very interesting and remarkable set of statements here. or something of the sort. the square in the circle.It is too complicated. but it illustrates my point—in Germany there really are no women. decorative motif. the daughter. Dr. and it tries to embrace the whole. Evans: What seems to be a very fundamental part of your writing and one of your main ideas is reflected in the term "mandala. . he really does not know it.I made the statement that there is a psychological relation. bringing order. . There is something very particular in the different nations.But in Germany. In the Middle Ages it played an equally great role for the West. otherwise she hasn't existed. It is a peculiar fact that the archetype of the anima plays a very great role in Western literature.There we are going to make discoveries. It is a very important archetype.It is what is called ultimo exquadra circulae. past and present. And I was absolutely certain—in the years before Hitler. .How would you look at Hitler in this light? Would you see him as a personification. There is Frau Doctor. Jung: No. and there is plenty of evidence for that. A mandala spontaneously appears as a compensatory archetype during times of disorder.I couldn't possibly explain that very complicated fact that Hitler represents. . His consciousness can be described. because the unconscious—and I repeat myself—is always unconscious. so you see. It is very interesting. he will be able to predict. there are exceedingly few examples in German literature where the anima plays a role. I could have predicted the Nazi rising in Germany through the observation of my German patients. before Hitler came in the beginning. . a religious hero. It means a center which is not coincident with the ego. or to arrange the complicated aspects of our psyche into a scheme. the symbol can appear. It is the archetype of inner order. a symbol that appears in dreams. no woman—la femme n'existe pas. it is just one typical archetypal form. and that now he could lie in peace. And so we don't know our unconscious personality. etc. mind you. I could say the year. It is really unconscious. we should say. or the circle in the square. you see. and in folklore. showing the possibility of order and centralness. That is why they put his photo upon the altar even. . She must have a title. Well. and with considerable detail. you know. Jung: The self is merely a term that designates the whole personality." How does this fit into the context of our discussion of the self? Dr. however. Jung was quite distressed over the misinterpretation of his ideas by Americans. Jung's most widely known contribution is his type theory in which he sets up the dichotomy of the introvert and the extrovert.And so it is just as if—now mind you. and these two terms are psychologically very much related. Jung reflects his lack of patience with this distortion of his intended meaning and usage of these terms. 21 . this is a bit drastic. for instance. but with the wholeness—it is wholeness—the wholeness which I call the "self".That is the idea. and was furthermore quite aware that his introvert-extrovert typology had been the recipient of much of this misinterpretation. as a symbol of "father"? Dr. Dr. So you see. Frau the grandmother. in a moment during a patient's treatment when there is a great disorder and chaos in a man's mind.As was pointed out in the first chapter. It is. Nobody can say where man ends. many aspects of the universe. the center of the whole personality. he was a hero figure. "I am important. or when he makes imaginary and fantastical drawings. It is an age-old symbol that goes right back to the pre-history of man. It is all over the earth and it either expresses the Deity or the self. The unconscious of man can reach—God knows where.He was a savior. That is the beauty of it. Part IV INTROVERT-EXTROVERT THEORY AND MOTIVATION Perhaps Dr. It expresses the fact that there is a center and a periphery." Dr. as in the form of a mandala in a dream.. He was a hero in the German myth.As a matter of fact. It is the whole personality. . he was meant to be a savior.The whole personality of man is indescribable.They had dreams in which the whole thing was anticipated.I only knew it through the observation of the unconscious. Frau Professor. It appears. It is the symbol of wholeness. but they prefer to think. And that's why somebody declared on his tombstone that he was happy that his eyes had beheld Hitler. Jung: Mandala. either to make arrangements of the many. it is highly important and highly autonomous. something very particular.In these interviews. We have hints and certain ideas. and the very great role that it plays can be seen. his unconsciousness cannot be described.Psychologists really should look out for these things. in the year 1919—I was sure that something was threatening in Germany.If somebody is clever enough to see what is going on in people's minds. but we don't know it really. not at all. Dr. Now that is an enormously important fact which shows that in the German mind there is going on a particular myth. . the main archetype. and a hero figure is far more important than any fathers that have ever existed. this is the term for wholeness. Evans: To get back more specifically to the idea of the self.
fantasy is not nothing. and particularly if he is well housed and well fed. you know. feeling. which are there from the very first moment of our life. I couldn't help seeing. Particularly difficult to fully understand is his introvert-intuitive type. and fantasy has a proper reality. It is. towards certain phenomena. you see tangible objects. And so he is quite right even if he says. "Oh. if you understand it as a phenomenon that takes place in so-called living bodies. or something like that. That is not to be forgotten. a world of images generally known as fantasies.It is no more. "Yes. all this. then he has no ideas at all. how important it is to know something about it. and the introvert is always afraid of the external world.They have become probably the psychological concepts most often used by the layman today. he explains his unique concept of energy as manifested in the individual. was fantasy to begin with. are realities. And so it is simply the world from within. those are my fantasies. the psyche is by no means tabula rasa here.. It doesn't matter whether we understand it or not. Fantasy is. that which is the originator of ways of envisaging. It is just as though you were seeing into another aspect of matter. and that is a reality." And he has always resentment against the world in general. No. What if something goes wrong with the psyche? And so it is demonstrated to us in our days what the power of psyche is. that is the introvert. Now if you look at it from the inside. primarily his view of the libido. because the psyche. that when a man has a certain fantasy.The introvert has no place. the spirit that is inserted in atoms. and he is not born as tabula rasa but as a reality. but it is a fact nevertheless. as our bodies consist of matter. original with you and very well known to the world. the subjective factor. And when you observe the stream of images within. it is a fact that the man has such and such a fantasy. But we know nothing about it. The psyche has two conditions. this is real. because there are certain people who definitely are more influenced by their surroundings than by their own intentions. seen from within. Nobody would give credit to the idea that the psychical processes of the ordinary man have any importance whatever. But when you observe yourself within. another set of ideas. which is very characteristic. you see moving images." And of course. was understood by Freud as a sort of pathological auto-egotism. because he bases himself upon the world from within. Particularly America is extroverted. That is a reality. but this is the conclusion we come to if we draw conclusions without prejudices. the difference between Freud and Adler.Now you see. then the whole world is in violent flames. that man is just as well based.He takes pains to explain in great detail the interrelationship which exists between what he refers to as the four functions—thinking. is a quality of matter. you observe an aspect of the world. he has just what he has in his head. Nowadays particularly. his friends. In discussing his motivational conceptions. and I knew that there were plenty of other ways in which things could be envisaged." I know that you are aware that these terms have now become so widely known that the man on the street is using them constantly in describing members of his family. When you observe the world. I could see the justification of Freud's view. for instance. That is a subjective factor. And so psychical events are facts. and that gives him certainty. namely. that is all man's doing. because he doesn't know that he beholds the world from within. That gives him dignity. or a bridge is built. not a tangible object. These houses were all fantasies. And there I was. so he gives some intriguing case material to illustrate this orientation in an individual. That is an idea that is not my invention. but not to the exclusion of emphasis on understanding the current events influencing the person. because man is just that which he is born. That means psychic is a quality that appears in matter. Yet these fantasies are facts. 6 Introvert-Extrovert Type Theories Dr. the world hangs on a thin thread. namely. I know. how our consciousness functions. like for instance. he is all from his surroundings. while other people are more influenced by the subjective factor. that there are 22 . Jung. from the association experiments—this is simply practical. of course. because this is valid. He will be apologetic about it. he is taught such and such a thing. another man may lose his life. because the subjective factor is nothing. because it is the psyche of man. you see. you can't show it. So I began an examination of the human attitudes. So when you know. you see the sky. Evans: Dr. you see houses. you see people. believes such and such a thing. even to the little child. We are the great danger. everything. The one is environmental influence and the other is the given fact of the psyche as it is born. it is nothing but my fantasies. for instance. in between the two. Jung: Like the word "complex"—I invented it too. viz.The one assumed that things evolve along the line of the sex instinct. It is the factor that produces attitudes. The psyche is the great danger. the man who is going by the external world. despite the fact that we can't measure it. a typical difference. namely. for instance. but a definite mixture and combination of genes. sensation. Now this is a mistake. and they give a definite character. Everything you do here. He also seems to support the importance of historical factors in understanding the individual. There is no such thing as an H-bomb. and it is such a tangible fact. We discover that this matter has another aspect. then it is just so as if you would observe the world. you know. looked at from the outside. a form of energy. the Peace Treaty of Versailles. of the world within." And that's the great mistake. by the influence of the external world—say society or sense perceptions—thinks that he is more valid. two important conditions. It is a manifestation of something. One thinks.Nowadays we are not threatened by elemental catastrophes. Assume that certain fellows in Moscow lose their nerve or their common sense for a bit. and also could see the same for Adler. and intuition —and what he designates as the introversion and extroversion orientations. center around the terms "introversion" and "extroversion. and the man who goes by the subjective factor is not valid. Dr. and so on. "Oh.And so I considered it my scientific duty to examine first the condition of the human consciousness.This he will tell you when you ask him.The other assumed that things evolve along the line of power drive. conscious attitudes. he will say. but it has been a fact. The old credos already talked of the spiritus atomis. You see. And so you see. the importance of a field approach. a psychic aspect. As I told you yesterday.
with my enemies I can deal myself alone. you can't tell exactly how he got that hunch. You can prove almost anything with statistics. they are only a sort of point to refer to. tells you what it is. When you study marriages. She was beating him on all points because by intuition she knew it before. certain things are unconscious. There is no such thing as a schematic classification. and intellectual people. Evans: Of course. And so with all the definite classifications. I tried to find out what the principal differences were.people who see the difference between red and green. Such a man would be in the lunatic asylum. for instance. and the woman was an intuitive type. I'm sure you have been aware of this. and to your amazement you discover after a while that he is quite unconscious of it." And he's right! And the other says. Of course. an inner reality. "Now. sensation tells you that there is something. we know of your four functions of thinking. as he may be wrong. you can take it for a fact that everybody sees that difference? Not at all. either because he is very well‐ balanced or he is very neurotic. they felt attraction. of course. Jung: Bismarck once said. Jung: My whole scheme of typology is merely a sort of orientation. or just as little. there is a quite simple explanation of these terms. Evans: Then this whole matter of extremes—introvert and extrovert—you say is a schematic approach. and it shows at the same time how I arrived at such a typology. Jung: Well. You know. of course. only you can't tell where they will come up. you can see it easily. the people themselves don't know when they react consciously or when they react unconsciously. I hold—. Not at all. When a man has a hunch. Now you would think that the one who observes reality very carefully. Thinking. That is the book about the types. the husband to a wife. roughly speaking. would win out. everybody can see them. You see. Dr. these here are the facts. or vice versa.And there at the lake were those birds that dive after fish. He knows what he says. there is such a factor as extroversion." His wife interprets this as his megalomania. But it is just as if an extrovert said to an introvert. They themselves don't know it at all. There is no such thing as a pure extrovert or a pure introvert. And. Dr. points for orientation. you know. Sometimes you succeed in finding out.There is such a factor as introversion. These compensations go on all the time. and he marries accordingly a wife of that type. then certain functional aspects. or what I call "practical psychology. and she marries him because he has a lot of money. but he has no education. in order to have that too. even if he found himself upon God knows what solid facts. or more influenced by the subjective fact—that's all. My two patients began to bet about who would be the first to see the bird. or where that hunch came from.Namely. painters or singers or God knows what. Certain things are conscious. feeling. How is that possible? You know. The last one is hard because when vou are neurotic. a frame of reference. Those are only terms to designate a certain penchant. sensation. I will tell you a little story. The man was a sensation type.For instance. at least in my opinion. "God may protect me against my friends. and then which of the four functions is predominant. and then everything is schematized along that word. 23 . but you can't always tell. It is only the instrumentality." and that sounds like nonsense to the extrovert because he doesn't know that the other one. and intuition. the interpretation of statistics. What is more a fact than a statistic? Dr. doesn't know it. Feeling tells you whether it is agreeable or not. certain people have many reasons. so they took a little boat and went down to the lake of Zurich. the main values of the extrovert are anathema to the introvert. There are cases of color blindness. particularly those that go wrong. a grand piano at home and being around artists. So you can talk to somebody. this is reality. It is a perception by intermediate links. I think. "But I think. but more often you don't." You know how people are. There are people who are fairly well-balanced who are just as much influenced from within as from without. introverts and extroverts. accepted or rejected. I saw first the introverted and extroverted attitudes. It is very often the case. about your work among some of the writers in America is that they have characterized your discussion of introversion and extroversion as suggesting that the world is made up of only two kinds of people." used to explain. but I don't want to make too many rules in order not to be schematic— that an introvert marries an extrovert for compensation. tied in with your typology of introversion-extroversion. Dr. I had two patients. we analysts have to deal a lot with marriages.Take. And then too. and he says. the tendency to be more influenced by environmental influences. do you perceive of the world as one made up only of people who are extreme introverts and people who are extreme extroverts? Dr. "Now are you conscious of what you say?" Or. the sensation type. because the types are too different sometimes and they don't understand each other at all. because the unconscious plays in him all the time. For example. without knowing it. And intuition—there is a difficulty because you don't know ordinarily how intuition works. the one sees this: the other sees that. to be accepted or not. Often you have great trouble even to make out to what type a man belongs.She has it. Dr. and you only get the result of the whole chain of associations. a man who has made a certain amount of money is a good business man. that come up again after a certain time. a certain tendency. for instance—I might say it is almost a rule. His dream is. The woman won the bet completely.Would you like to comment on it? In other words. Evans: Of course. It is a long and painstaking procedure to find out of what a man is conscious and of what he is not conscious. The classification of individuals means nothing at all. you know. or another type marries a countertype to complement himself. one of the very common misconceptions. "To hell with the world. It is something funny about intuition. is beholding an inner world. For instance.It would be very interesting to hear some expansion of the meaning of these particular terms as related to the introvert‐ extrovert orientations. "Did you notice?" And you discover suddenly that there are quite a number of things that he didn't know at all. you can really find out how it works by finding the intermediate links. and you think he is conscious. and that other one may be right. You have to ask people. Thus.They have a catch‐ word. then you have always a certain dissociation of personality. look here fellow. for instance.
I haven't found more and I tried. This is a very important function. sense perceptions. your intellect. "How do you know it was a gentleman?" And she said. all those types cannot be alike. but unexpectedly you come upon this river. You can only see a few steps ahead. an intuition can show you the hole through which you can escape. like a suicide. particularly when you are driving an automobile.My definition then is that intuition is a perception. that's too barbarous apparently. he smells a rat a mile away. Now they always try to get something interesting. the intuitive is a type that doesn't see the stumbling block before his feet. They look at things in an entirely different way. There you need your intuition because you cannot possibly tell by your sense perceptions what is going to happen.On the contrary. So what? Such an obstacle hasn't been foreseen.So you see. "Now you look out here. Is it not? There are other people who decide the same problems that I am faced with and have to decide about. For miles there is no human habitation. When she arrived. 24 . Jung: Yes. A multiplicity of cases. then you have hunches. For instance. the ashtray was under her nose. apparently. you must have somebody at eight o'clock. beyond ways or means of the unconscious. to be run over. you know. which is very little understood. the division by four. You had not known that there was a river there. absolutely. You can also have intuitions—this constantly happens —in our jungle called a city. as I thought my type to be.But that is perception by way of the unconscious. after a while I discovered that there are intuitive types.You find that type very frequently among doctors because it helps them in their prognoses. He can give you perception and orientation in a situation where your senses. You cannot swim across. through the study of all sorts of human types. You see. a lot of unpredictable things are likely to happen. and perhaps you go by the compass. you get your orientation. because anything can happen. yet a little voice says. And so." All the time. to discuss it once again. "But you begin earlier than nine o'clock. and you don't foresee any complications. they perceive by intuition. "Oh. You can't tell for your life what it is. "How do you know?" You see. Sometimes a case can look quite normal. And only later I saw that those are naturally the four aspects of conscious orientation. it is all full of crocodiles. that is human. but you better follow these hunches. yet we have seen it and used it. these four functions were not a scheme I had simply invented and applied to psychology. the intuitive type. Take the thinking type for example. For instance. I came to the conclusion that there must be many different ways of viewing the world through these type orientations—at least 16. the simple and natural division of the circle. I just had a hunch that there must have been a gentleman with you this morning. He sees around corners. So you will find that the intuitive types. Evans: Do you make a distinction between an intuitive extrovert and an intuitive introvert? Dr. and the most unexpected. Evans: How did you develop your conceptualizations of these four functions? Dr. but she doesn't notice it. once it happened that I had a woman patient in on a morning at nine o'clock. at the end of a long day you approach a river. for at the next corner a second nurse runs in front of the automobile. but he smells the hunt for ten miles. these four aspects of total human orientation. Wall Street men. Only when I studied the archetypes did I become aware that this is a very important archetypal pattern that plays an enormous role. but I found that the most simple way is the way I told you. follow hunches." here. "Oh well. it took me quite a long time to discover them. for instance. With us in our man-made. you get your bearings. and you can observe that with intuitive types." And I said. fear. They are. It may be though that you have a hunch that you should remain in the least likely spot and wait for the following day. but they make their decisions in an entirely different way. that such chance happenings come in groups. Now under primitive circumstances you would pay attention to these things. and there was an unsmoked cigar in it. For instance.This is a very important function under primitive conditions or wherever you are confronted with vital issues that you cannot master by rules or logic. but we have a lot of subliminal perceptions. there had been a man there at eight o'clock already. But those are the four that covered the thing. You don't know what there is ahead. was the sensation type." You cannot tell whv or how. uncertainty. intuitive types very often do not perceive by their eyes or by their ears. So. we don't need that function so very much. you are walking in primeval forests. as it were. because when you live under primitive conditions. Jung: Now mind you. and from these we probably draw a great many of our intuitions. At one corner a nurse runs in front of the automobile. that consist partly in a slight feeling of uneasiness. Dr." I said. or just a hunch that you should wait and look out for possibilities. they would mean something. And then you get a peculiar feeling really. For instance. Now I often smoke my pipe and have a sort of smell of tobacco or a cigar. They gave me much trouble. you know. When you are in an absolute fix. and your feelings are no good at all. You can have a hunch that something is going wrong. I'm very grateful.And she said. because there is something not quite all right. in the chaotic abundance of impressions through the four functions. There are places that are favorable and there are places that are not favorable. they have entirely different values. some bankers. and when you live under such primitive conditions. we have constantly warnings or hints. So you see. And the last. diagnoses of all descriptions. That is near as I can get it. It took me over a year to become somewhat clear about the existence of the intuitive types. Dr. I didn't now the symbolism of this particular classification. If you can tell me any other aspect by which you get your orientation. has a very important function because he is the one going by hunches. I just had the impression that the atmosphere was just like a gentleman here. and you can just as well say 360. safe conditions. that is the rule. you instantly are aware of hunches. she said. it is uncharted country. quite unforeseen things. You see. it is that day when nurses appear in the street. you know. If you use vour intuition. For example. feeling types. Of course. or that you should build a raft or something of the sort. You can increase the number of guiding or underlying principles.
extroverted feeling. he would be misunderstood. In a way.Now at about the fifth or sixth hour she said. If he did.. These things are complicated. Dr. you fell into a very tough place. it is a most painstaking affair because. that is very difficult to understand because what he sees are most uncommon things. literally. Dr. as you have indicated. "there are plenty of young gentlemen coming in. I said. they have a beautiful time." I then replied." She didn't see reality. that same girl came to me because she couldn't hear the step of her feet any more. and suddenly they may have inner images. is compensated by extroverted feeling. and the intuitive-introvert and extrovert types. ." Those were her last words. a model that can be helpful in understanding the individual. And so it is a means to an end. and if they did not keep things to themselves. should know of such things. however." she said.The things that they hint at are interesting to them. although it is a most interesting one. came out of my mouth. and are utterly strange to the ordinary individual.Dr. Thus they learn to keep things to themselves. For instance. once I had a patient. I must tell you that the snake has risen. "I come ten times and then it will be all right.One could say that it is like a country mapped out by triangulation points. which is quite understandable. they are all very nice young girls. She had found that place. vraiment. he sees the intuitive type. She had said. not from here. Evans: So we can take your introvert-extrovert orientations and describe a number of types. Dr. of course." What! "Yes. for instance." In a later conversation with her. practically no one would understand him. That is typical of cases that often happen. because people won't understand it. "How do you know?""Oh. and." I had never heard of it. doctor. Dr. but it is a sort of pension. you'll hasten to get out of it. like for instance the introverted philosopher who is always carefully avoiding women may be married by his cook in the end. He sees the sensation type. She couldn't hear it.Now these inner images may give them a great deal of information about the psychology of that person they have just met. it is the very first question—is he introverted or extroverted? The psychologist must look at entirely different things. I don't know how. Jung: Well.The intuitive extrovert you find in all kinds of bankers. which doesn't mean that the country consists of triangulation points. she reminded me of something she had foretold me. "Do they amuse themselves all alone?""No. because she walked on air. When it comes to reality now. You hardly ever hear them talking of these things. as a psychologist ought to do. this morning it came up. an extrovert‐ sensation type is furtherest away from the inner experience 25 ." And I said. and do you feel cured?" Just beaming. the sensation-introvert and extrovert types. . that is a great disadvantage." It turned out that this was a private brothel. and they have a merry time. I've got a hunch. they would tell the story. they may come into the presence of somebody they don't know.In each case these combinations do not represent a concrete category but simply. "You know. of course. "For heaven's sake. The introvert is more difficult because he has intuitions as to the subjective factor. and she was completely unaware that they were all prostitutes. They are still more complicated because the introverted thinking. Jung: It is just a sort of skeleton to which you have to add the flesh. because they are afraid people will think . "You know that I don't mean it literally. it is not just called a pension. a black snake coiled up in the bottom of my abdomen. knew everything and did understand such kind of language. are vital to them. if you have to explain an introverted-intuitive husband to an extrovert wife. because one of the most difficult types is the intuitive introvert. Pension so and so. if the introverted intuitive would speak what he really perceives. and that frightened her. it was a snake. treatment that only lasted for ten consultations. Then on the tenth day I said.It is quite difficult to get into their confidence. however. archaic. Jung: They are sick. When people make a psychology. There are only young girls there. she said. that is only in order to have an idea of the distances.She replied. which took place about in the middle of her treatment." I said. you see. I often wish they would invite me to their merry evenings. So you see. "Doctor. thinking-introvert and extrovert types. "For heaven's sake. both their inward experiences and those which occur in human relations.She was a perfectly decent girl from a very good family. is that case a schizophrenic?" You don't normally hear that kind of speech.Well. "You know." to which I responded with the question. the feeling-introvert and extrovert types. Evans: Yes. I myself was quite shocked. inferior." I must have made an awful face at her. but they never invite me. "I have never heard of that place. It only makes sense as a scheme when you deal with practical cases. namely the inner world. she replied. Immediately after I had seated her. Such a person cannot possibly speak of her experiences because everybody would think she was absolutely crazy. but in another way it is an enormous advantage that these people do not speak of their experiences. gamblers." A hunch. I came to you because I've a snake in my abdomen. "Oh. what would be an example of the difference between an intuitive extrovert and an intuitive introvert? Dr. but she had hunches like everything. For instance. etc. a young woman about 27 or 28. They suddenly know an important piece of the biography of that person. so she said. she said. A psychologist. "If you say it was a snake. For instance. you have chosen a somewhat difficult case. things which he doesn't like to talk about if he is not a fool. When I asked for her address. and I thought. So an introverted thinker may be crude in his feeling. Then the fat would be in the fire! So the intuitive introvert has in a way a very difficult life." she replied. it is now about here. "Now this is our last hour. very lovely young girls. "It is a very nice place. he would spoil his own game by telling what he sees. Evans: More specifically. he sees thinking and feeling types. and the head was golden. but she assumed that the old man. not from Adam.
he may develop needs for social approval.That is something else. these primary drives are modified in terms of the society in which he functions.Instead he suggested that all the conditions which affect the individual at a given moment help us to best understand the individual and predict his behavior. however. Then we have another view. Then as the individual is influenced by reality and the culture in which he lives. Jung: Well. that simile is limping too. earlier when we discussed the libido. innate. There are many forms. Evans: Many approaches to motivation in our academic psychology today emphasize what is sometimes referred to as a biocentric theory. and sustains the individual. because as soon as he is in a definite situation. another manifestation. self‐ preserving types of drives. namely. Then by sleeping through the night. Lewin has any virtue? 26 . you know. Of course. there appear to be two views found in much of our psychology in America today. That is the main feature. Freud uses the term "libido" in the sense of sexual energy. etc. not the existence of one single power.and the rational functions. suffocated. that they have a certain quality. why the person does what he does. every given situation is just the worst that can happen to him. Now in order not to presume or to prejudice things. he's done. and then we must sleep to restore our powers. and energy is a quantity of energy that can manifest itself via sexuality or via any other instinct. He is pinched and feels he is caught. Jung: Yes. Kurt Lewin. and he is always caught by those facts. However. viz. He will plant that field. the extrovert-sensation and the introvert-intuitive. Sex is just one of them. Others will reap what he has sown. which is a field theory. Dr.To some degree you have already talked about this when you discussed archetypes.If it is sexual. and so on. Would this general approach to the understanding of the development of motivations be consistent with your ideas? Would you say that basic. the way they are building their nests. so it always remains a sort of analogy. there is trouble. They all are driven by a sort of energy manifestation. To him. Do you think that the "present field" idea of Dr.. he's over and no more interested. Now energy is a concept by which you try to express the analogies of all power manifestations. chained. and there is a flow in one direction. I speak simply of energy. then it is finished. You have certain principles concerning psychic energy which are very provocative. that which Freud considered a psychic.The main point is to take the standpoint of energetics as applied to psychical phenomena. where we try to look at the history and development of the individual for answers as to why he is doing a certain thing at the moment. he tries to find a hole where he can get out. He himself is those facts. so it is only in an analogous way that we use the term "energy. We get tired from intellectual work or from consciously living. and the meaning of the word "sexuality" would be entirely gone if all these different urges and drives were included in its definition. Evans: One question which is quite important as we attempt to understand the individual centers around the problem of motivation. and later on he corrected himself by assuming that there are also ego drives. thirst. say the drive to conquer or the drive to be aggressive. to the ultimate suspension of the opposites. you take animals. postulated and discussed by Dr. Dr. Low-high-height —a lake on a mountain flows down until all the water is down. then it is a power. Dr. But if the introvert is intuitive. and we can work again the next day. And you see something similar in the case in psychology. I alluded to it. Now with psychical phenomena you have no possibility to measure exactly. their satisfaction is necessary to the maintenance of the organism. I believe you refer to as the principle of entropy." I used it because I wanted to express the fact that the power manifestation of sexuality is not the only power manifestation. to him that is hell. instinctual patterns are modified by the environment or culture to which they are subjected? Dr.One might be called an historical view. For example. to go further into this problem. Freud himself says that this is not applicable everywhere. Later. and one of these principles. certainly.It suggests that the individual is bom with certain inborn physiological. if this is important in the culture in which he lives. such as the drive for hunger. For instance. influencing further his food preferences. or the urge of the traveling birds that migrate. When those two marry. or any number of others. because he is the man who will discover a new field. a certain intensity. sexual energy. like electricity or any other form or manifestation of energy. He adapts and behaves according to the facts as they are. the general hunger drive is supplemented by a specific urge for certain kinds of food. it is as if the water were pumped from a lower level to a higher level. or the condition which arouses. You have a number of drives. He did not believe that the history—the past —was the most important element in motivation. He must break those fetters. and that is not quite correct. I can assure you. In the case of all these drives. and as soon as the new plants are coming up. 7 Motivational Concepts Dr. you may recall your suggestion that it was more than just sexual energy.You suggested that it could be something much broader. as illustrated by the biocentric theory just discussed. concerning motivation. as a result of specific cultural influences. Evans: Also. directs.
despite all causes. As he addresses himself to his work with patients. in a way.Another concept related to motivational development is the process of individuation. a neurosis can be finished suddenly on a certain day. Why should we assume that it is a different principle? It is really the same kind of evolutionary behavior as the body shows. and his feelings concerning the relative importance of statistics and a knowledge of the humanities for the budding student of psychology. Evans: You have brought up many interesting and provocative ideas here. That is man. Even the schizophrenic can be vastly improved by a shock because that's a new condition. that is the law that is in him. Evans: So you think the psychic development is in many ways like the biological development. It is equally true. you see. Jung: You mean the practical use of it? Dr. Jung: Well. it is a very shocking thing. a process to which you frequently refer in your writing. What led you to develop the Word Association Test? Dr. namely. Would you like to comment about this process of individuation.He reacts positively to the general value of projective tests. MENTAL TELEPATHY.Dr. You see. utilizing "projective tests.Take an acorn. although he indicates some reservations concerning the originality of Hermann Rorschach.It is the psychical aspect of the living being. the whole system that has been built up for years. Evans: We American psychologists do a great deal of testing. The reader will be interested in the strong feelings concerning mental telepathy which Jung possessed and his rather favorable reaction to the work of J. they have a mental behavior which is in accordance with those organs. they serve as a purpose. But that is one-sided too. Because of this. because they got into an entirely new condition. the whole thing collapses. They are. those of the teeth or something like that. and develops into the whole man. B. that wrong attitude is a sort of fact that needs to be explained historically. because all psychological facts are oriented. for example. Jung: The psyche is nothing different from the living being. Once they are no more in it. Dr. however. It is even the psychical aspect of matter. specifically his word association test. or maybe an opinion. Part V SOME REACTIONS CONCERNING PSYCHOLOGICAL TESTING. he discusses at some length the value of dream and fantasy material to the therapeutic process.He cites his work with tubercular patients fifty years ago as evidence of his early understanding of psychosomatic medicine.Also of unusual interest to the reader in this section may be Jung's comments on his contact with Einstein and Toynbee. Jung's reaction to theories of psychosomatic medicine and tranquilizers alike reflect his reservations concerning how much progress American medicine and American psychology has really made. the neurosis is made every day by the wrong attitude the individual has. 8 Jung on Diagnostic and Therapeutic Practices Dr. how all these factors move toward a whole— a totality? Dr. obviously I always insist that even a chronic neurosis has its true cause in the moment now.It is a fact that people develop in their psychical development on the same principle as they develop in the body. that's something quite simple. put it into the ground. so it shocks them out of their habitual attitude. so the wrong attitude can have originated in a certain way long ago. there is no need to bring in other types of ideas. Man develops from an egg. Dr. One has observed in the beginning of the war cases of compulsion neuroses which had lasted for many years and suddenly were cured. and watch it grow and become an oak. It is a quality. 27 . It is like a shock. pointing out how slow the American psychologist was in accepting such a view. Jung: The psychic development is out of the world. that it wouldn't exist today any more if there were not immediate causes and immediate purposes to keep it alive today.He attempts to discuss his own complex contribution to understanding in this field by presenting his concept of synchronicity. those animals that have specially differentiated anatomical characteristics. other types of theories to explain development. Evans: So as you see it.Consider for instance.The basic biological law is still— Dr. Evans: Yes. Dr. you know. Jung: Well. physiological. AND OTHER PERSONAL INSIGHTS In these interviews Jung traces his pioneering efforts in the area of projective personality testing." As we discussed earlier. Well. you certainly played a major role in developing projective testing with your word association method. not only to course. by things that have happened in the past. but also to a certain goal. PSYCHOTHERAPY. Dr. Rhine in this respect. it is something else. however. On the other hand.
and that. Dr. It just wasn't necessary. I think very highly of them in this capacity. Jung: No. I think. I didn't know where to begin or what to say. for instance. Dr.He has circumvented me as much as possible. Dr. Dr. from such association responses you discovered complexes or areas of emotional blocks in the patient? Of course. Evans: So you really didn't have any personal contacts with Rorschach? Dr. With these tests one can actually demonstrate repression or the amnesic phenomenon. and psychoanalysts use these projective tests. Evans: In other words. and the association experiment has given me access to their unconscious. Evans: Did you hope that from these complexes or emotional blocks which you were uncovering as you administered this word association test to get at materials in the personal unconscious or the racial unconscious? Dr. and that. there might appear an archetypal element. in the beginning when I was a young man. Evans: But did you get to know him personally? Dr. Dr. I learned about the things they did not tell me. Jung: Yes. they are useful to any psychologist. Jung: Well you see. If I have a case who doesn't want to talk. a superficial orientation.That is not the point. Jung: Yes. that is. Jung: Among hundreds of complex associations. Dr. the way in which people cover their emotions." which originated with you. Then. is used very widely now. I believe." of course.I never saw him. you know. Evans: In his terms. I have. of course. such as your Word Association Test or Rorschach's test? Dr. for educating young psychologists. I discovered many things. but the tests provide certain principles and criteria which serve as guides and measuring devices for what one sees and hears. It takes place like an ordinary conversation. but it wouldn't stand out particularly. I think I don't over-rate the didactic value of projective tests. etc. You observe all the things which you observe in a conversation with another person. Jung: Yes. Jung: No personal relations at all. complex—that is one of the terms which I originated. I can make an experiment and find out a lot of things through the experiment. Jung: In the beginning there was no question of collective unconscious or anything like that. because I was the one to first outline the concepts. Dr. "introtensive" and "extrotensive. clinical psychologists.I never should have done it. mistakes in speech. in my own estimation that is. Dr. but I was the anathema. I learned what I had to learn from the exact examinations of psychic reactions. little hesitations. discovered a murder. what is more. you can observe certain things.It was chiefly the ordinary personal complexes. Dr. he is reflecting your conceptions of introversion and extroversion. all those things come to the fore. I think it is an excellent means to learn how the unconscious works.You weren't expecting to get into such depth. perhaps. Dr. Evans: I see. For instance. is unforgivable.They are exceedingly didactic. etc. It is all so interesting. 28 . because later on I didn't even apply the Word Association Test anymore. And sometimes. in conversation when you ask a person something or begin to discuss certain things. the word "complex. Jung: Yes. and I got a deep insight into things of which they were not aware. Jung: Well. did you not? Dr. Jung: No. Dr. but I never applied it. Evans: But would you recommend that other psychiatrists. in the experimental setting they are measurable. Dr. Evans: So you feel that the projective tests have a function in training psychologists? Dr. You know. is a very excellent means. Evans: Are you familiar with Rorschach's test which uses ink-blots? Dr. I was completely disoriented with patients. Dr.For the education of psychologists who intend to do actual work with people. Evans: You knew Hermann Rorschach.Dr. it is like the Rorschach..
I got quite a lot of empirical material about the peculiar way in which conscious and unconscious contents interact. In the end it is strictly a moral question. we have done a lot of work on the pneumograph which will show the decrease of volume of breathing under the influence of a complex. etc.Dr. It helped me to understand my patients. and he will have other dreams. as Freud did. as you say. making him think like that in spite of the fact that he doesn't want to. There are cases who know just as much about their own neurosis as I know about it in a way. "We will see what you dream for a starting point.If you study an extrovert. the personal quality of the unconscious in a given case. let us take the case of a professor of philosophy. this is not a simple case. of helping you to analyze and understand the individual. Evans: So." You see? That's enough. Mind you. of course. where the conscious revealed the qualities of one type and the unconscious revealed the qualities of the other type in a given individual. you find that his unconscious has then an introverted quality. Half of tuberculosis cases are psychic. Dr. When I saw their conscious type. irrespective of causes and such things. "Of course. you gradually developed through your typologies a sort of theory. he can be cured. but a very difficult and serious case.Such a case can stop from one moment to the next.This would be a very important way. if we succeed in analyzing the dream. the whole medical analysis. Now when we have the full picture. because a dream is a manifestation of the unconscious side. and I must explain to him that the dream is a manifestation of it. therefore. of course. and it is just as though another personality of the opposite type were influencing him or disturbing him. Jung: Yes. Evans: In working with a patient. the unconscious has introverted qualities. This has helped me to understand more the patients in terms of the Freudian em phasis (based on the past) as well as in Adlerian terms. help you in this analytical process? Dr. I say. or you confront the patient who is holding a definite conscious attitude with the related unconscious attitude that is counteracting the conscious one. but nevertheless. we come to that question. each of which will have something to add until we have the whole picture. "What is it in your unconscious that makes you wrong in your thinking. I got ideas as to their unconscious attitudes. one of the reasons for tuberculosis is the manifestation of a complex. In the course of years. would you say that it is essential for him to recapitulate his past life in order to help him deal with his present neurosis. In certain cases it is almost impossible to distinguish between conscious material and unconscious material.It is as though a demon were in him.You know. because you just cannot tell at first sight which is which. is perpetuating his neurosis. I've consulted many surgeons and they all assure me there is none. we may get an idea about that power. don't ventilate the apices of their lungs anymore.I find in the study of the "type. In therapy you treat the patient as he is in the present moment. The reverse composition. it is perfectly plain to you that it is nonsense what you believe. You see. then. In such a case. if he has the necessary moral stamina. Then I say. just as soon as the person who has the sickness stops thinking such foolish things. it is diagnostically quite important. Dr. concerned with the present situation of the patient. Jung: There is no one-and-only system in therapy. In such a case one can begin right away with the analysis of dreams.Now why are you forced to believe such nonsense? What is the power that makes you think such a thing against your free will? You know it is all nonsense. and I know there is none but I might have one. but that is exactly what he cannot do. is equally true. and get tuberculosis. a psychology of opposites. This is because all the extroverted qualities are played in consciousness. and that's like an association test I have worked out with the psychogalvanic phenomenon. the whole problem takes on new perspective.Now that we have discussed the first dream. I have no answer. For instance. I'm afraid I could have one. He shows me several dozen x-ray plates that prove there is no cancer. I could do this by watching individuals who were actually going through analytical treatment.People have very shallow breathing. or do you feel that you can deal situationally with his problem without going back and probing into things that happened to him during his early life? Dr. Jung: Yes. based on introversion-extroversion constructs. That is all more or less theoretical." that it supplies a certain lead as to the personal nature of the unconscious. Dr. Professor Jung.Also. That knowledge gave me a lead of diagnostic value. This process. and the same is true for all cases that are a bit serious. there is a point when you try to integrate unconscious contents into consciousness." In this case our philosopher has never heard of the unconscious side. whether a man applies what he has learned or not. "Well. I have no cancer. an intelligent man.The point I wanted to elucidate is that in analyzing a patient you create the expression of typical experiences during the therapeutic process. from a practical point of view. Now the neurotic is just as much controlled and influenced by the unconscious as he is by the conscious. Jung: You see. "Now you have no answer. In all cases after the preliminaries such as taking down the history of the family. you have that lie detector in the United States. Sometimes I can start right away with posing the problem. Dr. Thus. and the day by day process of analyzing the data produced by the unconscious. There is a sort of typical way in which the integration of 29 . He says. so he may appear to be a type which actually is not a true diagnosis at all. that hinders you from thinking normally?" Then we can begin with the observation of the unconscious.. and the introverted qualities are all played in the unconscious. Evans: Is that right? Would you like to tell us how this was done? Dr. who imagines that he has cancer. so I must explain to him about the existence of the unconscious. which are more. Evans: Does your type approach." It's like a possession. in spite of the simplicity of the phenomenology of the symptomatology. which is distorting his thinking. What are we going to do?" I add.
what have I done! You could get a million dollars for what I have told you now!" I said. I'll forget it in a fortnight. you are seeing it in me. it waves. because the idea of a deity is not an intellectual idea." so I said.He calls it transference. but she was utterly unable to get out of this delusion. You now function as if you were the mother or father—the central authority. with the wind blowing over the field. or love you for it. I remember. the personality of the analyst is simply disregarded. you know. He was the spirit of the wheat. Now everybody would assume that such a thing would be possible. One would easily think that she would be able to see that I was not her parental authority. I had a case once which involved an intelligent young woman. In her dreams she is a little infant. or of an Old Testament Yahweh. what sort of difficulties the individual has encountered in adapting to environmental conditions. subjective material about the individual. she suddenly became aware of an entirely heathenish image. This makes sense. you see.It is just as if these people had handed out their whole existence. interests. Now as you know. "Well. therefore. Then it is just as if the doctor had taken the place of the father. unlimited power over them. for instance. apparently.Now that is the living experience of an archetype. you can transfer the disease to an animal. putting her to sleep. So." I thought. they are handing out themselves. that they could see that I am just a doctor and not that emotional figure of their fantasies. To begin with. by all the manifold emotional reactions they have had against their parents. the content of it is associated with all the important persons in the life of that patient. I have become a very tender father to the little girl. but they are not indifferent. if I had any blackmailing tendencies.Suddenly he jumped up and said. and the scapegoat takes it out into the desert and makes it disappear. Even when it comes forth in the form of "Manna. he also sees in you. When a patient discusses such material. or even of the mother. I am a kind of giant. and she is a very little. Thus. and with these waves I swayed. that catches hold of your unconsciousness. "You see. Now Freud doesn't exactly call it projection." a central problem in analytic psychology. that I am an ordinary human being. an archetypal idea.When it comes to something emotionally important. when the wind is blowing over a wheat field. I'm not interested. They are investing in the analyst big emotional value. The first troubles are with the parents as a rule. Now that is the structure you have to work through first in analyzing the situation. it all vanished later on and something disappeared from her world. because she had a rather intense religious education. standing in a field of wheat." it has an all-powerful. you get slowly and willynilly into a situation of a kind of authority. extraordinary effect or quality. He is actually dependent upon the doctor like a patient with an open abdomen on the operating table.You can sleep in peace. More and more her dreams become emphatic in this respect. quite a little girl in the hands of an enormous being. and I am holding her in my arms. it can be regularly observed that when you talk to an individual and this individual gives you insight into his inner preoccupations." Then I say. but of a heathenish God—a God of Nature. superstitious idea that if you have a disease. things which would give me. one always has recourse to the dreams. "My God. an image that comes fresh from the archetype. emotions.But you see. they are entirely in your hands. You can see that this kind of a situation creates an emotional relationship to the analyst.In the case of this girl. He is in the hands of the surgeon.Of course. etc. not the mother. frail human thing. You find this type of archetypal image practically everywhere under this or that name. which is an illusion to an old. that enabled her to understand.. In this case. and I be gin to see that the unconscious is producing dreams in which I assume a very curious role.It is like you are my father. you want to know all personal. "Now we will see what the unconscious says. that I analyzed a very well-known American politician. Now. "Now the harvest is ripe. making me indispensable to her. In that dream.He was the wheat itself. You are in possession of all the important items in a person's development. This means that we have to work through that condition in the hope that we will arrive at a different condition where the patient is able to see that I am not the father. Now in such a case. "Of course. but I just feel like that. a God of Vegetation. it doesn't matter whether it is personal at all or not. the analyst. is that unconsciously you are feeling the influence of a deity which does not 'possess' your consciousness. that is projection.consciousness takes place. When that girl came to understand what was happening in her. Now the most important persons are usually father and mother in going back into a person's childhood. that is very often not the case. because I shall not betray you. namely. She had not the idea of a Christian God. That religious conception of the world was to her no longer existent. I know you are not my father. The average way is that through the analysis of dreams." because they had handed over to me the image of their respective mothers. curiously enough. Then she came to see that I was not 30 . it made a tremendous impression upon her. I depend upon you. and this is what Freud called "transference. that the patient could arrive at such an insight when he or she is not a complete idiot. and once she could understand that consciously. It is an archetype. utterly and permanently ruin them. for better or for worse. so the thing must be finished. just as if they were handing you a large sum of money or trusting you with the administration of their estate. sitting on my knee. what you want and what you are projecting into me. However. because the patient in such a condition is not free. hands over his personal complexes. Naturally. That is what one calls transference. an enormous field of wheat that was ripe for harvesting." From that point. he is a slave." That clicked. Often I hear things that could ruin these people. for instance. etc. I am also persecuted by the corresponding resistances. I was out in the midst of nature. a student of philosophy who had a very good mind. She felt as if she was in the arms of a god. that missing value which she was projecting into me." So you see. a sort of emotional relation between the patient and the doctor is fostered. She saw what she really was missing. the image of that mother or father. we work very hard in analyzing her dreams. be cause you are dealing with things which are very important to the person. and she was in the arms of that Pneuma. the archetype could no longer control her. or you can transfer the sin onto a scapegoat. the patients hand over themselves in the hope that I can swallow that stuff and digest it for them. or in other words. who told me any number of the secrets of his trade. I was a giant and I held her in my arms like a baby. when a patient hands over to you his infantile memories about the father or mother. of the "Godhead. you become acquainted with the contents of the unconscious. Either they hate you for it. and you become a point of reference. and I must tell her. Then the final dream occurs in the series. that shows that the things people hand out are not merely indifferent things. that's quite irrespective of the personality of the analyst. and that can have very peculiar effects upon the individual. Thus. I have had quite a number of male patients that called me "Mother Jung. The world became merely personal to her and a matter of immediate consciousness. She says through the conscious. because you are not conscious of it. the spirit of the wind. I am in loco parentis and I have a high authority.
Writing that book cost me my friendship with Freud. nobody thinks such things. In this case the collective dreams were expressing the mythological patterns or motifs which were in his unconscious. He had a lot of personal problems. Well now. He began having and reporting collective dreams to me.To Freud. possessing a creative nature and capable of autonomous acts. giving it as an example of creative imagination. to study. Then you will see how the collective dream applies in cases such as the one cited above. one case which involved a young man. Dr.He published that material without commenting on it. the unconscious representing the other factor. But. Jung: I wrote a book about such dreams. wherein he described her half poetic and half romantic fantasies. enabling one to make out a second personality. "This is very uncomfortable. mythological motifs. in contradistinction to the schizophrenics. I have revised it after forty years. I took the existence of the unconscious for a real fact. There are many examples of this in the collective dreams I have published. I shall tell a long story. and mind you. are unsystematic and chaotic. it is a collective fantasy. Now. You see this same process in a case of schizophrenia. I tried for the first time to produce a picture of the functioning of the unconscious.At that time my empirical material had been formed chiefly by observation of lunatics.He is crazy to think such things. A man or woman becomes that which he or she is from the beginning. because they have no value in themselves. for instance. Now this is not the case in schizophrenia. so that you cannot make out a second personality. and the unconscious simply contained the remnants of consciousness. for she had no more connection with India by all external considerations that I did." not distinguishing between the two aspects involved. I'm referring to over 40 or 50 years ago. and it made me think furiously.Using the fantasies of the American girl. you see. That is not an individual fantasy. Then I saw that. Therefore. because he could not understand it at all. It has not become recognized that in our psyche there are two factors. but he was engaged in the poorest of relations with the other people of the society.So as an analyst I thought it to be really the task for psychiatry to elucidate that thing that broke into consciousness. dramatic. the unconscious was a matrix. She had been liberated and was now complete. an introduction to the psychology of the unconscious. her own way—her individuation. I have seen quite a number of such cases as I have just cited to you. He gets quite confused by these ideas. invasions of fantasies into conscious life. I simply called it "the unconscious. chiefly in the beginning of a disease. the voices and the delusions. To me that was a psychological problem of the very first order. one says. He was a member of society. Nature will take her course. or a more comprehensible type. she is in the arms of that archetypal idea. quite a rational young man. Evans: How do the dreams and fantasies of the patient enter into the process? Dr. the unconscious was a product of consciousness. but in reality I must admit that there is another master. I saw this as exactly the kind of material I needed. I felt that these things had a system and that they were not merely chaotic. when I read those fantasies. that is an example of a collective symbol. because the whole of philosophy. I mean that he saw the unconscious as a sort of store-room where all the discarded things of consciousness were heaped up and left. I could not be accused of having influenced the patient. and he gets into a sort of panic since he never before has thought such things. Now when that girl could hold that experience. They are quite strange to him and equally strange to his physician. I even thought she might be crazy. a sort of basis of consciousness. she was and will be able to continue her part. At that time. The value became part of her. their ambitions. however. and not a donkey.In other words. That is the reason I analyzed those particular fantasies. somebody in my house that can play tricks on me. an autonomous factor that was capable of independent action. It was just as if the whole world were suddenly transformed. In The Psychology of the Unconscious (16). An old professor of psychology and philosophy at the University of Geneva published a case concerning an American girl. In those days. cases of schizophrenia. Inasmuch as she could realize such a Pneumanous experience. they depend upon their desires.The acorn can become an oak. and that is the thing that people are looking for. and others where the content that flowed from the unconscious was in readable condition and capable of being understood. they depend upon other conditions. Until they have the experience and understand it. because there was too much sense in those fantasies. And the unconscious can interfere with consciousness any time it pleases. an archetypal experience which is in itself an incorruptible value. decayed material. Yet. Now right at first. It was really quite shocking. but finally these enlarged and expanded until he was involved in very disagreeable relations with the whole of his surroundings. a functioning which pointed to certain conclusions as to the nature of the unconscious. You see. on the contrary. "That man is crazy. and he thought he was crazy. Now I say to myself. as the dream says. she no longer had to depend. with consciousness representing one factor and. and it is now called Symbolisms of Transformation (16).I think I am the only master in my house. the analyst is equally dumbfounded by the peculiar character of those fantasies. because he couldn't accept it. but this was not a case of schizophrenia. They are only rational. we are all similar in at least one respect—we are all 31 . somnambulism. which throws the patient into even more of a panic. but I had a very great scientific curiosity which made me want to know what these things really were. of course." and the patient agrees with him. has not recognized the fact that we have a counter-factor in our unconscious. he dreamed of things he had never thought of in his life before. I remember. the mental contents were elaborate. I have already mentioned the case of that intuitive girl who suddenly came out with the statement that she had a black snake in her belly. Suddenly. There the fantasies.To me. That case became the object of a whole book called The Psychology of the Unconscious. you know. because. I was always a bit afraid to tell of my personal experiences with patients because I felt that people might say that too much suggestion was involved. suggestive and insinuating.indispensable. and I had observed that there are." I have to deal with the unfortunate victims of that interference every day in my patients. even up to the present day. fantasies of an entirely unexpected sort which are most bewildering to the patient. They depend upon other people. That is a Pneumanous experience. equally important. To make it clear. two independent factors. This led me to begin studying cases of psychogenic diseases such as hysteria. That fantasy is well known in India. I had no hope to be able to treat these cases or to be able to help them. I tried to show that there is a sort of unconscious that clearly produces things which are historical and not personal. I needed a simpler type. but since I had no hand in this case. The cases are of too complicated a nature. autonomous intrusions into the consciousness. and are not in possession of a treasure that would make them independent.
thinking and feeling. This is because. and.She didn't know how she came to it. There are cases. and this system has as its symbol Kucarini.human." Dr. or thinking always within a context of totality or wholeness. and you don't know why they don't appear. you can repress them. and sensation and intuition being irrational. That is differentiated thinking. The ideal of thinking is a rational result. Dr. projection. thinking and feeling being rational. sounds much like the research into intuitive function. J. Kucarini the serpent. but of their own. a phase of your work which we discussed earlier. one can give the explanation that they have not appeared before because they were in disagreement or were incompatible with the patient's conscious views and attitudes. That never had been repressed. but what is it when you dream of a penis? You know what a man has said. It appeared spontaneously. Without you having anything to do with it. is it possible that things that trouble him and cause tension lead to repression? Dr. it is autonomous. Jung: That's quite probable. but I should say that the majority of cases are unconscious. On the contrary. Evans: As the individual goes through life day to day. say an extrovert sensation type who is very much influenced by the unconscious. a mode of thinking which is known in and characteristic of India. the example of that serpent. "This is a phallic symbol. Dr. She said. not of the subject. also. of course. They simply don't appear. one of the old guard? His explanation of that question was that in this case the censor had not functioned.Take. They can disappear at wish. Of course. one of the orthodox men.One can say that a church spire is a phallic symbol.. "One makes projections. they are already in the unconscious. people say. or the so-called repressions. with the work of Dr. etc. It is the basis of a whole philosophical system. They simply won't appear.One doesn't make them. it works by itself. and the ideal of feeling is also a rational result. these disappearances. Dr.These things disappear. Jung: He doesn't repress consciously always.But you can prove that these things never have been conscious before.The rational group consists of the two functions. that is a collective dream or collective fantasy. "Well. would you say that a person who has clairvoyance would be an intuitive type in your frame of reference? Dr. Jung: Yes.This is something known only to some few specialists. or else it would have been conscious to her. it generally is not known that we have a serpent in the abdomen.Rather. and Freud explains that by active repression. They can appear or not appear. They hold rational values. sure. when they do come up later. you were not able to predict it. Jung: But you can say anything. that of Tantarism. Jung: As you say. the unconscious is real. the rational group and the irrational group. They are already there. And so. 32 . For example. Jung. Well. one finds them. you speak of rational and irrational functions. Evans: Now some of the orthodox psychoanalysts might have said. there are two groups. looking at the so-called defense mechanisms.Some of his work in extrasensory perception and clairvoyance. Rhine at Duke University." Dr. That was my first point of difference with Freud. you see.Would you care to elaborate on this notion? Dr. For instance. Dr. I just saw it. it is an entity. you know. where consciousness enters in. you would say that they are already there as manifestations of patterns that are already present in the unconscious. you would differ from the orthodox psychoanalytic view in that you would not sav that they are developed as a means of defending the Ego. Evans: You are familiar. it was unconscious to her and only appeared in her fantasies. for instance." That's nonsense. they are already part of the unconscious. It is just so the same as with projections. This girl was just highly intuitive and oriented toward a "wholistic" manner of thinking. He has introverted intuition in his unconscious.Or it can be a sensation type.I saw in the association experiment that certain complexes are quite certainly not repressed. So you see. or mental telepathy. rationalization. B. these things that have an emotional tone are partially autonomous. Evans: Dr.You call that a scientific explanation? 9 Jung on Contemporary Psychological Problems Dr. are just like projections. But that is afterwards that you can say this. Evans: So in a sense.
because it is a revelation which in these sacred rooms is anathema. and which has some relevance at this point in our discussion." But the argument has not been understood at all. All this really means nothing. but independent of each other. the terms they use. Jung: Those people who yield the best results are always those people who are introverted. Now many would say that this is an example of mere chance. quite independently.That's the fact. Now it would be superstitious and false to say.The irrational group is comprised of sensation and intuition. it shall not prejudice facts. Jung: Well you see." Dr. But I have come across quite a number of cases where it was most astounding to find that two causal chains happened at the same time. so I have to content myself with the observation of facts!! 33 . nothing at all. it was hidden behind the building until just this moment when it suddenly appeared. that portrays just that thought. it is not interesting. chance occurrences and chance factors. "Now we have at least a more or less dependable basis to argue on. Dr. which you have discussed. They are words. However.He reports these occurrences more often than would be expected by chance. This is utter nonsense. Dr." now that is difficult. telepathy. and they can't deal with this one concretely. Evans: We might go a little further into some of your recent works in this area which many consider quite profound. I never made statistical experiments except one in the way of Rhine. On the other side. I thought. Evans: Now. There is a probability. but are not too well known to many of our students.In his own work. Jung: Of course not. For example.That is the important point which hasn't been contradicted. but the Rhine experiment proves that these cases are not mere chance. That is anathema to the intuition. Now I haven't seen the red car. intuition does not look at things as they are. Dr. but for scientists to say. Rhine himself uses them—recognition. To the sensation type. some scientists would insist are due to chance. There was some experimental proof offered in England. that's nothing but guesswork. you will come across plenty of cases which show a very peculiar kind of parallel events. it is just chance—but these chances happen more often than chance allows. "I'll swallow that. synchronicity. it is beyond chance. of course. Jung: It means nothing. Jung: That is awfully complicated. but a definite guess. Sensation functions in such a way that it may not prejudice facts. Dr.I made one for another purpose. a revelation of time and space through the psyche. I probably would have done them. it is something more than chance that such a case occurs. Evans: To be more specific. it is a miracle that a red car has appeared. because it is really very difficult.They mean nothing at all. people hate such problems they can't deal with concretely. and has the means.But that is a side aspect of it. The other question is far more interesting. When you observe the unconscious. he proves that it is more than chance.We have no means here to make such experiments. where introverted intuition comes in. You see. But as you know. It's really quite clear. Here it is just physically impossible. it is statistically plausible. that there is something else to it which is not nonsense is made evident by the results of Rhine's experiments. Would you care to comment on synchronicity? Dr. that is guessing. the ideal perception is that you have an accurate perception of things as they are without additions or corrections. which resulted in the accusation: "Oh. something else happens. you know. I speak of a red car and at that moment a red car comes here. In fact. this kind of thinking started long ago. that is what Rhine has made evident. I have a certain thought of a certain definite subject which is occupying my attention and my interest. a lot of the things that you are describing. Evans: The word itself is not a description of the process. Of course. and makes off into an unconscious process at the end in which he will see something nobody else will see." And that is exactly true. It looks ever so shortly at things as they are.However. and when Rhine brought out his results. Evans: So in terms of the person who is clairvoyant— Dr. but he thinks he has said something when he says "telepathy. namely.One wouldn't know where to begin.Nobody in the general public actually reads these things. because it wasn't possible. a hunch is guessing. For instance. "This car has appeared because here were some remarks made about a red car. what you call guessing. even Rhine does not understand how often extrasensory phenomena really occur. Rhine has a whole institute. otherwise. many co-workers. and at the same time. Dr." It is not a miracle. I'm referring to the concept. Rhine used statistical probability analysis methods. looked at from a causal point of view. you know. so that you could say they had nothing to do with each other.That shows that there is something behind it. Dr. Rhine. Dr. That's the major point. the point is that it is more than merely probable. etc. Of course. my books are at least sold.
you know. Or sometimes there may be actual symptoms or fears concerning pathology when no true pathology exists. So you ask. Evans: Speaking of such psychosomatic disturbances. Evans: So all this interest in psychosomatic medicine is pretty old stuff to you. Dr. that is well known—since more than fifty years. and I'm sure is of interest to you as well. 34 . They get him. Evans: An interesting area which is being discussed a lot in the United States today. You see. Jung: As an example of this. Dr. with us it has been always a question of how to treat these things. Evans: And even cancer? Dr. we are right now becoming more and more interested in the United States in how emotional. but they instead have disorders of psychosomatic origin. chronic arthritis. your experiences and studies into tuberculosis. such as in cases of hysteria or hypochondriasis.Maybe also because I understood so little of it.You could ask just as well when you are eaten by a crocodile. a physical ailment or predicament. Dr.The question is how to cure them. that where there already is pathology. Dr. These ideas have been extended into many other areas. an area dealing with the way in which emotional components of personality can affect bodily functions. it came too conveniently. these emotional factors can intensify it. for example.We know these since long ago. When the disease has been established and there is a high fever and an abscess. not even unconsciously. is that of psychosomatic medicine. Evans: Of course.The understanding of what their complexes were—that has helped them.It just all depends upon —perhaps life depends upon it—whether you treat such a patient psychologically in the proper way or not. Evans: And you are not at all surprised at the new developments . ulcer of the stomach. Fifty years ago we already had these cases.Of course. Jung: Yes. because you are particularly accessible to an infection—maybe sometimes because of a psychological attitude. I'm sure. Dr. Jung: Well you see. Dr. people learn to breathe again. they happen to him. Dr. Angina is such a typical psychological disease. do you have any ideas as to why the patient selects this type of symptom? Dr. Dr. Evans: To expand on my earlier question. but I have seen cases where I thought or wondered whether or not there was a psychogenic reason for that particular ailment. many physicians in America say that 60 to 70 percent of their patients do not have anything really physically wrong with them. the classic example in the literature is the peptic ulcer. for instance. Jung: I was an analyst to begin with. you cannot cure it by psychology. It is believed that this is a case where emotional factors have actually created pathology. I see a lot of astounding cures of tuberculosis—chronic tuberculosis—effected by analysts. Yet it is quite possible that you can avoid it by a proper psychological attitude. It's just an infection. Dr. That can help tremendously. I was always interested naturally. or more importantly. Many things can be found out about cancer. because any disease possible has a psychological accompaniment. Jung: Not at all. yet it is not psychological in its physical consequences. Dr. skin diseases.That is an extraordinary exaggeration of the importance of the subject. Dr. he has selected you. It is felt. that is. tuberculosis. to say he was choosing such things. Jung: No. Dr. "selected" in this sense refers to an unconscious process. "Then why does psychology have anything to do with it?" Because it was the psychological moment maybe that allowed the infection to grow. Evans: Perhaps one of the most radical suggestions in the area of psychosomatic medicine has been the suggestion that some forms of cancer may have psychosomatic components as causal factors. even if you cannot prove in the least that the disease in itself is psychogenic. All are psychogenic under certain conditions. I noticed that I understood so little. . You can have an infectious disease in a certain moment. "How did you happen to select that crocodile?" Nonsense. as. For example. . Jung: He doesn't select. Jung: It's all known here long ago. Evans: When did you first become interested in the psychic factors of tuberculosis? Many years ago? Dr. unconscious personality factors can actually have an effect on the body.Would this surprise you? Dr.Dr. I couldn't swear.
to relieve pain. the sexual rebellion. a master of such tools as statistics and experimental design. or are there things that are practically forever unconscious? In 35 . Of course. but it is not a very happy result. Dr. you see. Then followed such drugs as reserpine-serpentina. Dr. there are many drugs that don't produce habits. a psychical habit. another development that falls right in line with this whole discussion of psychosomatic medicine has been the use of drugs to deal with psychological problems. Jung: Yes. any drug or shock in the mind will lower stamina. a particular development has been the so-called non-addictive tranquilizing drugs. but they at least make the patient more amenable to therapy. Dr. Jung: No. Evans: But the argument is that these are not habit-forming. not only are the stronger tranquilizers being administered to mentally ill patients such as schizophrenics. Jung: Well of course. You don't know what you do.Dr. that a study of the humanities is also important for the student who wants to study the individual. different traditions. You are far ahead in America with technological things. Dr. you simply are not yet aware of what there is. certain schizophrenics are so withdrawn that they are virtually impossible to interact with in psychotherapy. I don't want to figure in a general corrective statement. I published it fifty years ago—just fifty years ago—and now everyone discovers it. Evans: To change the topic for a moment. However. historically drugs have been used a great deal by people to try to forget their troubles. Dr. after my association experiments at which time I realized that there was obviously an unconscious. of course. psychotic patients. It is like the abuse of narcotics. yet it becomes a different kind of habit.These rebellions occur because the real.For instance.For instance. "Now what is this unconscious? Does it consist merely of remnants of conscious activities.Happily enough. natural man is just in open rebellion against the utterly inhuman form of American life.Americans are absolutely divorced from nature in a way. for instance. but to a great extent today these drugs are being dispensed almost as freely as aspirins to reduce everyday tensions. there is one view that says maybe he should be trained primarily as a rigorous scientist. Dr. To understand human psychology.Now to pursue this further. Jung: It's just like the compulsion that is caused by morphine or heroin. so in many hospitals in the United States. yes. he thought it was an apparition. should have. and a great variety of milder tranquilizers. chlorpromazine. they are not physiologically addictive. Jung: Yes. I told you that case of the theologian who didn't even know what the unconscious was. when you use such drugs. and all that. can be made into something.For example. you are fifty years back. American life is in a subtle way so one-sided and so uprooted that you must have something with which to compensate the real nature of man. of course. Dr. You see. there is the toxic aspect of schizophrenia. and that is just as bad as anything else. so at the slightest provocation you have a big moral rebellion in America. the kind of habits that morphine does. you can't help noticing that man's psychology doesn't only consist of the ramifications of instinct in his behavior. He just doesn't understand the first word of psychology. it is absolutely necessary that you study man also in his social and general environments. making these people accessible to suggestion. however. Dr. when you study human psychology. Each is naturally a considerable task. Evans: There is certainly nothing mystical about the statements you have just been making. different kinds of nations.They are now being administered very freely to patients by general practitioners and internists.You simply don't understand it.It becomes a habit. and in the interest of that purpose. drugs such as chlorpromazine have been used in order to render many such patients more amenable to psychotherapy. the only question is whether that amenability is a real thing or drug-induced. Dr.Look at the rebellion of modern youth in America. Jung: I can't say. with us there are very few. and that accounts for that drug abuse. You see. the question became. Others feel.I am sure that any kind of suggestive treatment will have effect. etc. Jung: This practice is very dangerous. Jung: Oh. a person who wants to study the individual. and the study of man from his biological aspect only is by far insufficient. Evans: But you feel that psychologically there is still addiction? Dr. Everyone who says that I am a mystic is just an idiot.You see. Evans: Have you actually seen any patients or had any contact with individuals who have been taking these particular drugs. I don't think most of our practitioners believe the drugs cure the patients in themselves. we are not yet so far. they can be led. became prominent in France with the drug. You have to consider. In other words. Dr. There are plenty more things than people have any idea of. these tranquilizers? Dr. because these people simply become suggestible. many others. Dr. Thus.There are other determinants. it is absolutely necessary that one treat the problem of the human psyche from many standpoints. Dr. known by such trade names as Miltown and Equinal.You have to pacify your unconscious all along the line because it is in absolute uproar. that's what one says. Then. In America there are all the little powders and the tablets.For instance. Evans: Why do you think this is dangerous? These drugs are supposed to be nonaddictive. I know our students would be interested in your opinion concerning the kind of training and background a psychologist. Professor Jung. that's a fact. These. the fact that there are different kinds of societies. but in psychological matters and such things. Evans: But what about the treatment of individuals who are seriously mentally ill? We have the problem of hospitalized.
She was really badly plagued by that phobia. When everything is statistical. which as a combination show that real understanding of the psyche must consist in the elucidation of the history of the human race—history of the mind. man living in his surroundings. that is. For instance. is quite unbecoming. Her father too had resisted this ascetic influence. Jung: Well. Evans: As one reads your work. the effect was that within a week she was cured from so many years of bad anxiety states. as it were.You see.Her father was a banker. "You will stamp out your fears if you gain insight into what you have lost or are resisting. He must live in a world where the "whole" of man.It is the expression of what man really is. There it is wonderful. convictions. the more you destroy our society. He loses his connection with his family.With this insight. they have a tremendous importance also for the arrangement of the psyche. Natural science may say. Modern physics is truly entering the sphere of the invisible and intangible. because if you wipe out the mythology of a man. but once it appears. you know. Dr. In fact. The scientist is always looking for an average. When I wrote my first book concerning the psychology of the unconscious. but instead is a definite mixture or combination of genes. 10 Personal Insights. he becomes nothing. because this insight went through her like a lightning bolt. I already had formed a certain idea of the nature of the unconscious. is the unconscious a factor in itself?" And I soon came to the conclusion that the unconscious must be a factor in itself. So you see. his entire history. There are any number of objective factors. I examined her history further and found out that her grandfather had been an ascetic in Galicia." You know.Now I saw from a practical experience that this kind of proceeding has a most extraordinary therapeutic effect. The other side of the picture is that the individual lives in connection with others in certain definite surroundings that will influence the given combination of quali ties. we seem to be aware that you know archeology. because the environmental influences are not merely personal. The general social conditions. is the concern. To think that man is born without a history within himself— that is a disease. It seems quite strange to me that one doesn't see what an education without the humanities is doing to man. so factors determining human behavior are bom within the child.You cannot get real knowledge or understanding of nuclear physics without a good mastery of mathematics. There are historical reasons why things are as they are. because man is not bom every day. man is not complete when he lives in a world of statistical truth. all individual qualities are wiped out. Now the explanation for this must needs depend upon the elements born in the child. his entire historical sequence. a number. The physicist enters it 36 . higher mathematics. This. but man has always lived in the myth. our whole life goes to blazes. She thought she was in the middle of things. It is a very complicated picture. It is in reality a field of probabilities. "You need no connection with the past. reduces everything to an average. functioning well. There I only have a certain relation with it on the epistomological questions. for instance. there you can be a number. you cannot study it.If you want to be an "average number. and what he feels himself to be. and that is not merely statistics. Before you can see into the psyche. Evans: What can we learn from this remarkable case. the trouble is that nobody understands these things apparently. There are historical reasons for the qualities of the psyche and there is such a thing as the history of man's evolution in past eons. To me it was then a living remnant of the original history of man. They are historical. you can wipe it out. But one pays very dearly. like in the case of the girl. She had been educated more through worldly experience and formal education. when delving into people's dreams or schizophrenic patients' delusions and fantasies. yet the truth is that the carriers of life are individuals. He is deprived of his specific value. in excited states and so on. you see that it has certain qualities and a certain character.The "ideal state" and the "slave state" come into being. We think that we are born today tabula rasa without a history. I have plenty of cases of a similar kind. that is. I observed that this girl had blocked significant influences of her past. that therein is contained motives which they couldn't possibly have acquired in our surroundings. his connection with his whole past—the whole stem. This is simply on account of the fact that we are both entering a sphere which is unknown. and although the genes seem to contain chiefly dynamic factors and predispositions to certain types of behavior. these things are not of an arbitrary character. you know. I often have discussed this with Professor Scherrer. it illustrates that it makes no sense and that our existence is incomplete when we are just "average numbers. So I simply told her. Jung: Well this is true inasmuch as a great deal of my work is concerned with these disciplines.I was able to interpret the source of the problem so quickly because I knew that she was absolutely lost. for instance. laws. it is unhygienic. I observe time and again. Jung? Dr. but actually she was in a sense lost or gone. If you are growing up with no connection from the past. and was decidedly lacking in any understanding of tradition. It is absolutely abnormal. and let me explain why. Our natural science makes everything an average.other words.Your fear is the fear of the influences from the past. You see. and therefore. which handicaps me some. the tribe —that past in which man has always lived. of course. which is exactly the same as the unconscious. I can tell you such a case. Now that is one side of the picture. the fact that her grandfather was an ascetic. Reminiscences. inasmuch as it appears. a terrible phobia." but that is a mutilation of the human being. of course. as in the biological data. There was a Jewish girl. and to my amazement I found that they have terms which are used in psychology too. that he lived in the myth. anthropology— Dr. he becomes a statistical average. and that. but I have no mathematical gifts. and determine further development. of dealing with things. and had been under psychoanalytic treatment already with no effect." go to Russia. depends upon the belief that the child is not born tabula rasa. and Experiences with Great Figures Dr. And that now is also a very complicated factor. This particular girl suffered from phobia. was one influence she had blocked. Dr. not average numbers. ways of looking at things. he is only complete when he has a relation to these things.Now he is a nuclear physicist. I knew the whole story. of experiencing his own unique value. He is bom into a specific historical setting with specific historical qualities. it is like being born without eyes and ears and trying to perceive the external world with accuracy." The more you make people into average numbers.
Einstein. that our students are stimulated by what you've said to go back to your great array of writings. Jones' responses will indicate. Part VI REACTIONS FROM ERNEST JONES The interview with Dr. throughout the interview he was sharp. however. and his last major contribution. they can't come together. you know how it is when a man is so concentrated upon his own ideas as was Dr. They are enemies. a three‐ volume biography of Freud. we psychologists used the term "transcendental function. Dr. As Dr.So the two are mother and father. and bound and determined to defend Freud against his critics to the end. right in the beginning.I was simply the host. I'm sorry. Dr. For instance. In the Middle Ages for at least 2000 years the red and white were the couple. it's a patriarchy. he more or less tried out some of his ideas on you. this is the real purpose for making these interviews available to students.People have to read the books. the function of rational and imaginary numbers. Dr. and when he is a mathematician on top of everything. For instance. had that symbol of the red star. Jung: I wouldn't call myself a friend. Evans: In your dealings with Professor Toynbee. however. Dr. and Russia is the land of the little father. That's the reason for the parleys between psychology and higher mathematics." The two lovers have quarreled with each other.Now that is higher mathematics. they were ultimately destined to marry each other. satirical. Jung. that even when Dr. To use the terminology of the Middle Ages. or just before? Dr. Evans: What year was it that you were friends with Einstein? Dr. The reader will note. and can span centuries or thousands of years. represents a massive tribute to Freud the man as well as Freud the scholar. the Soviet Republic. Russia. proper British sense of proportion. Dr. they are the white woman. by golly. sometimes symbols that you would never think of at all.from without and the psychologist from within. to motivate them to read the original writings of the world's great contributors to our understanding of man's personality.Now it is a five-rayed red star. Dr. with which I have nothing to do. Jung: That was when he was working on it. both in connection with their own ideas and in connection with their respective opinions concerning many of Freud's theoretical formulations.Perhaps we should not impose upon your extreme kindness any longer at this time. then you are not welcome. inasmuch as most of the money is in the hands of women. Evans: Was this after he had already formulated his relativity theories. the "femina alba. Dr. he never lost his pedantic. yes. Evans: When you spoke with Dr. It expresses itself in symbols. Einstein in your early discussion. in spite of the fact that they are thick." Now transcendental function is a mathematical concept. I do hope. Jones which follows provides an opportunity for unique contrast between Jung and Jones. Reactions from Ernest Jones 37 .Now America is a sort of matriarchy. Jung: Yes. the "servius rubeus. Evans: Well. and the way that they are ruled by archetypal forms. I tried to listen and to understand. Toynbee has seen what I mean by historical functions of archetypal developments.It was very interesting. have you gotten rather interested in his ideas of history? Dr.That is a mighty important determinant of human behavior. But we come to the same terminology. particularly his ideas about the life cycles of civilizations. Dr. Jones responded in a satirical or very forceful manner. you've patiently and interestingly responded in a spontaneous fashion to questions ranging from your feelings about Freud's ideas to reactions to Toynbee. Jung: Well you see." and the red slave. as you know. After all. America has the five‐ rayed white star. Jones devoted much of his life to supporting the views of Sigmund Freud. so there was little chance to insert some of my own ideas. Jung: Ah.Did you ever bring to him the possibility that relativity might apply to psychic functions? Did you ever discuss that? Dr.
there were Breuer and Binet. to the other. Evans: This was then not too long after Freud's Interpretation of Dreams (10) had been . even before he got into his . Then I heard of his doing this other work. Evans: Dr. as we look at psychology. I had never heard of anybody doing that. have as much or more effect in the molding of the individual than do these biological factors. at Salzburg.I was studying abroad in Munich and Paris before that. he was. I mean personally. and Dr.I thought it so astonishing that there was a man who seemed to listen to his patients—listen to what they said.He and Stekel were the two first. and secondly. as is his work on aphasia and other things. Dr. and that was really the feature about his work that struck me most. one of the questions that I believe has been of very great interest to many of our students of psychology in America centers around your own relationship to the psychoanalytic movement. There was Janet. . Dr. of sociology.So I became a neurologist and I did quite a bit of work in neurology. did you find that your hope that this would unfold new avenues and new sources of understanding was realized rather rapidly? In other words. He was well known in England at that time as a leading neurologist. but historically speaking. because I was the first person outside of Vienna and Zurich to do so. So my interest swerved from that. I was obviously woefully mistaken. We met there. the brain.I wonder if you would like to comment on this in terms of whether. Dr. there was something much more complicated behind it that was not visible. there have been a number of people who feel that perhaps Dr. Evans: Then at first you heard of this man as a colleague in neurology and became interested in this other phase of his work. however." It was at the beginning of 1905. but hearing from you something about how you happened to become involved with the psychoanalytic movement will be very interesting. some of which is still extant. or split-off sections of it. in April. nevertheless continue to direct the individual to great extent. were you rather well convinced that this would be something perhaps of life-long interest to you? Dr. Jones: Oh. original work.I mean he was one of the leading neurologists in Europe.Dr. especially in the use of hypnosis. Jones. Freud. I understand. it comes to this: In my teens I was very interested in general spiritual problems of religion. we are struck by the fact that Dr. first of all. It became evident to me that when you've got a simple hysterical symptom. from your early discussions with Dr.Well.Why was I? Well. . Freud. I reckon. and he comes across these other cases. Jung introduced me to Freud. I used hypnosis myself. Dr. Evans: At this time was Dr. Very recently. on its own.It wasn't the first thing I heard of Freud. Dr. and there were different French writers for about a hundred years. Freud and the psychoanalysis of this period emphasized biological factors a bit too much. a British journal called Brain. He thinks he is studying something organic. already had gotten quite a lot of attention. very much so. Jones: . who followed Freud at all.How would Freud have reacted to them? 38 .I knew about his organic neurological work through my neurological studies. Freud's contribution seems to postulate a strong biological pattern which he suggests has a tremendous effect on the early development of the individual. and it occurred to me that the most fundamental way to get at the basis for all these problems would be to study the nervous system. you have discussed this in other places. and naturally came across patients with what we nowadays call neurotic symptoms.That meeting took place at the First Analytical Congress. Freud. both neurology and psy chiatry. I met Dr. and I was very impressed by that. He'd published even in English periodicals—in Brain. I wanted to get at that. of socialism. .Of course. Evans: On first meeting Dr. I suppose you could go back to infantile impressions and stimulations.These biological patterns. in which case. as you know. That's what happens to every neurologist. 1908. Jones: Oh yes. and we were both enthusiastic about it together. though they are modifiable by the environment or the culture within which the individual lives. Evans: To go further into your own feelings about Dr. we are unfair in suggesting that Freud was over‐ emphasizing biological factors. So I thought I would start listening to my patients more in detail than I had before. Dr. I think even before I met him—yes.I worked under him for months. that stem from the so-called "neo-Freudian" movement. Adler already part of this group? Dr. Dr. about those views emphasizing cultural factors. that maybe the culture in which we live. psychoanalysis. they come to him. Dr. and I began reading and learning everything I could. of course. Jones: Oh.It was he who introduced me to Freud.Apparently you had noticed these psychological factors in your own patients. but here was a man who probed more deeply into them. . on multiple personality. I find that an interesting question too. Jung before then and at a time when he was very enthusiastic about Freud's work. Freud's work and your relationship with Dr. as far as that goes. Jones: Well. from the organic side. After that you went to Vienna.They date back to 1902. under Kraepelin in Munich. Dr. I read the whole French literature on that. trying to explore and find out more about what was going on behind the scenes. which would take us a long way away. . our society and environmental surroundings. had been published. Evans: So his neurological work. Dr.Even to this day his work on paralyses in childhood are the classic books on the subject. and psychiatry today. of philosophy. . and he described a case which he called the "daughter analysis. Jones: Three years later.
are those individuals who have suggested that he tried to explain everything in terms of repressed sexuality unfair to Freud? Dr. which could account. you see.Dr. that man is an animal. lays down the law. etc. He might actually have been willing to see other underlying causes if they had been visible. none of it is accidental. Jones: Yes. seeing into the operation of the unconscious. Freud's concept of libido in which he seems to talk about a broad. hatred. because by his theory there is a great deal of repression of sexuality. or anything you like. environmental influence. plays with him and is his comrade in games and fun but has no authority over him. you look at a society. though certainly of a more elaborate kind. That is in the nature of things. There doesn't seem to be any direct evidence for it. opposition. Dr. Evans: To go further. or do we have to assume . I don't think for a minute it would be fair to say that he was over-emphasizing the importance of biological factors. When you come to cultural influences. which we know quite well is true and gets people into trouble in consequence. Jones: It is quite simple. if you point that out. you can. Dr. what about other societies where that is less so? What about America. and love as well. the boy will react to his uncle with jealousy. you would expect that. It doesn't alter the biological pattern.Very well. or opposition. we become so enmeshed in cultural social pressures that we are somewhat like 39 . and I take the view too. but that causes naturally a shift in the form taken by your biological reactions. his uncle. has been one of the bases for much criticism of Dr. where the mother is more important than the father. etc. rivalry.What about them? Well now. . Dr. All right. No. who have tried to suggest that maybe the real fulfillment of man is the development of a sort of creative spirit.That's what you mean. Take for example the Oedipus complex.We are asking ourselves such questions as: Are we losing individual identity? Is the individual more or less becoming.. Dr.I don't see how anybody could over‐ estimate them. aren't you? This would illustrate what we call resistance. Evans: Moving along to quite a different area. Jones: What do you mean "by accident"? If something falls from the ceiling on your foot. . Freud. for instance. don't you? He thought that the libidinal drives were a part of the biological inheritance of man. one of the problems that interests us a great deal today in the United States is the one of man's over‐ conformity. or is this broad sexual drive he is talking about merely the total involvement of all biological drives? In other words. will correspond with our uncles or grand‐ parents who spoil the child. like curiosity or perhaps aggression. it's like a pressure. it only alters the form it takes. and that there is the spiritual part which came from the sky and was put into him on top of it all. Dr. because if it were as simple as that. "other‐ directed?" Are we worried so much about what the other person thinks that we don't develop truly individual personalities? This has been commented on rather extensively by Otto Rank and Erich Fromm. who only comes in occasionally. Jones: Yes. they too are the produce of the biological motives. it causes that shift. it would be an accident. I don't see how you can over-estimate the nature of man.In other words. a fundamental tendency. there is a question as to how we should interpret the term "sex" here. Freud's interesting paper on psychopathology in everyday life revealed how Dr. otherwise. it would be very unscientific to think it could be. I think he would have been willing to see anything that was there. Dr. at least in part. Freud took the view. Dr. Jones: No. Well now. Jones. broadly speaking. Dr. of course.Therefore. Evans: To refer to the biological pattern in Dr. the basis of man's being. Dr. Freud says all our spontaneous activity is motivated. as he normally would toward the father. but we don't happen to take that view. You can take another view and say that that is only part of his being. Freud have said that things which would appear to have been accidental really were not? Does one assume that there is always some unconscious involvement? Dr. you are going to call that a cultural. where the "Mom" is really the person? Or what about still more matrilineal societies where the woman ranks very highly indeed? What about native societies where the father doesn't live with the mother and only visits her occasionally. And his real father. psychic sexual energy. for the great emphasis on sexuality as a causative factor to be seen in his reporting. what would happen to his whole theory of conflict? There are two sides. Dr. in these particular patients he saw sexual conflicts as fundamental to their neuroses. Evans: Would Dr. man is in line biologically with the rest of living creatures and is actuated by instincts and reactions of a similar kind. Freud rather ingeniously and brilliantly could analyze any number of specific situations in just day-to-day living. so it's really at the next remove. just as other instincts are. Evans: Would this be a fair statement of the situation? With his patients in the repressed culture of Vienna. as one American writer has said. say particularly a German society where the father is very important.But I don't quite see—it would be ridiculous to say that some people explained everything in terms of sex.Are we talking about narrow sexuality. which we think is very fundamental and possibly even inborn—we don't know exactly about that— but anyhow very fundamental. You would expect to get an Oedipus complex there. and naturally. or criticism. In the case of that last society. Dr. where she lives with her brother and the boy is brought up by this brother. In other words.However. Jones: Trying to explain everything in terms of repressed sexuality? I think that's going very wildly astray. you are bound to run into the repression.Would Freud have said that everything we do is determined in this way? Can we ever relax and assume that some things are done merely by accident. Freud very often saw conflicts centered around sexuality. and he found by experience that this often enters into conflict with other aspects of the personality. Evans: This.
and then he used it. Think now about when man first used tools. is probably a matter of social penalty. However. Sir Herbert Spencer was a man who wrote a great deal about that. Dr.I take it there has always been that conflict between the two sides.His book on group psychology points that out. Freud's work essentially points to that state of conflict between the two. a lot of very awful things do happen to him.Also. In another hundred years. thus not true individuals. A whole lot of things can happen to him. Jones: Yes. of course. there are constant shifts. man is actually becoming freer and freer. a follower of Spencer. however. creative individual? Dr.These particular pressures to which man is subject are only momentarily relevant. Jones: Well. Evans: We need some order. if a man doesn't conform in America. more complete personality. but the repressed part. the hidden part. and the necessity he recognizes to take other people into consideration. because originally he must have been very conforming. for instance. but it leads to practical troubles from a social point of view.Do you feel that this view of perhaps a large segment of men in Western society is an accurate one? Is man becoming . It is generally thought that in France there is more individual development and less conforming. some organization. that they are going through a bad patch. Of course. Evans: Doesn't this unified control of which you speak necessarily imply control which is social in origin? Dr. and that is how civilization clearly evolves. Evans: Would you say that the process of undergoing psychoanalysis in a very broad sense bears on this? In other words. Evans: In a sense. I should think less. provided you left politics out of it and didn't want to remove the Czar. that is to say.I should think the obvious factor in determining on which side the accent is placed. and that raises the very interesting problem as to why. the part in conflict. That has its advantages. who is disturbed and unhappy. no doubt. Dr. and his own conscience is a thing that develops only partly from social sources. Dr. to make him the whole of "himself. my suspicion is that a good many people tried grinding as a sharpening technique during that half a million years. Dr. Jones: No. much more so than any other country in Europe. if a man in France doesn't conform. Dr. So it took thousands and thousands of years before ultimately a society became so free that the members were allowed to file a bit of stone. They can't get a stable government. In America. Now. "Is man becoming more conforming?" No.Obviously a community would be impossible if everybody did exactly whatever he liked. In other words. in that it allows freer development of the individual. people are not allowed to develop freely. fuller.He loses his job and is not allowed to get another. they don't even pay their taxes very often there." but it seems to me that the state of affairs you point to is universal and eternal. He struck one against the other and made it flake so that the thing would be sharp on one side. isn't it? The aim of analysis is to make the person more himself. to mention one example (7). . the extent to which free development of individuality can take place must vary in different cultures and in different periods. and were killed for not conforming to the older pattern. we'll round-about again. but the other side has its problems too. say 120 years ago. does anything very awful happen to him? Not really. there must be a good deal of conforming. Dr. say in the French way of life versus the American.That's the aim of analysis. Jones: Yes. Dr. social control. We are certainly allowed to do many things that we couldn't in the middle ages. you feel that immediate social pressures are forcing the individual to conform. Dr. that is to say. if we go back to primeval man. but in the long-range.Now. historical perspective. Then you say. Evans: The first impact of the small family structure on the neophyte. places like Sinclair Lewis describes in Main Street and Babbitt. Well now.And Professor Fluegel. I don't really know. 40 . I think we are getting freer and freer in that way. and his conscience goes back at least to the first year of life.machines functioning in culture. and that increases the necessity to conform.They should all come into play and be under a unified control so that he would be a bigger. about every fifty years or so in different countries. would you say that an individual who has sort of lost his identity by over-conforming and being too afraid of social pressures.I suppose in the small town places. Dr. Everyone wants to act on their own." not only the visible part.As you know. and so all over Europe in the same way. say stone tools. that is to say. the individual versus the State. provided you didn't talk about politics. through analysis might come to realize individual trends in himself more and perhaps become a more productive. Look at the complaint in the United States in the present. etc. That may be true as far as I know. You can trace the beginning of it. wrote some very interesting essays on the same thing. sexually or otherwise. or he is thrown out of the university.You could have ideas or behavior in any direction you liked. he begins very much earlier in life. there always must have been conflict between the individual's desire to act freely without taking into regard anybody else. more of an individual.I suppose the freest place was Russia in Czarist times.Now that is all changed. etc. I'm talking about his own conscience. I don't know what he is "becoming. then. Jones: Bound to. . Jones: Yes. There was a great deal of freedom. and possibly even inborn tendencies. It took him nearly half a million years before he thought of grinding the part to make it sharp.
willy-nilly. In other words.One thinks that the climate of opinion then must have been favorable to that creativity. for biological reasons of survival.He learned about the Breuer case in 1882. or to do something about those internal dangers.For example." and the thing thrusts through.Would you agree in the case of Freud that he produced in a period. I should think that Vienna was a nonfavorable.I should think myself it is very likely. At the present the time is favorable.No. not at all. because I don't think that all of the super-ego comes from the outside pressure. Dr. Evans: So even individual. The creation must come from within.There has been a very interesting tendency in literary circles to apply psychoanalytic theory to an understanding or evaluation of great literature. you're suggesting that the generalization that a great genius can't emerge from a conformist environment is an extreme over-simplification. Evans: So in a sense then. Jones: I think there is a sharp distinction between the writer and the critic. If he started merely copying. and if the conformity is not very strong. it will burst through in conformity. Jones: Well. or destructive to somebody he loves. Dr. very much a conformist environment." he would not really be bringing out anything 41 . very destructive to himself.I would say "no" for one and "yes" for the other. I don't think so in that case at all. Evans: So he didn't continually seem to feel the impact of Breuer at all . Jones: Freud was certainly brought up in a climate of conformity. in the case of Dr. to scientific inventions and discoveries. . The child is born with much wilder impulses than we have when we are grown up. there are dangers coming from within as well as from without. The more spontaneous the writer. the research of Breuer.Right! However. and perhaps even genius among a given people? Would people like Beethoven.I think the writer would be harmed if he tried to benefit by psychoanalytic knowledge. it would take away from his own spontaneous impulses. Freud. Jones: We would very much like to know that. it gets through more easily. characterized by a scientific setting that lent itself readily to such creative expression? Dr. Dr. I think some comes from inside. . Later on it was picked up and woven into the work he was doing. He not only has to learn to control them and guide them in certain directions for social reasons. Dr. so there is a necessity to control or repress. you also see on the other hand that it becomes more frequent in certain periods. Does it follow that the young writer should study psychoanalytic theory? Would this be of help to him? Should the critic become thoroughly acquainted with these ideas also? Dr. It seems very likely to me that that control is inborn. in what you call a "conformist environment. Evans: So what are the ingredients that allow an individual who is brought up in a very conforming climate to show amazingly unique individuality in creative efforts? This is the sort of thing that gets into the whole problem of what actually are the ingredients of genius.There was that one little episode ten years before when Freud became acquainted with Herr Breuer and his work. Jones: None. much more so than in many other times. Dr. that we just can't speak meaningfully in these terms. Evans: Now in terms of a climate of conformity as opposed to a climate of greater freedom. looking up things in a textbook and saying. Evans: What exactly is the nature of these inborn tendencies bearing on social morality to which Freud referred as the "Super-ego"? Are we to believe that man is already born with built-in prohibitions on his social existence? Dr. Take the Renaissance period of Italy when you had great painters and artists. but Freud was a neurologist way up to the nineties before he even started the psychological side. wasn't he? Dr. and the work of some French psychiatrists. very unfavorable environment. we have read with great interest your analyses of literary figures such as Hamlet in Shakespeare. such as in Italy during the Renaissance. have emerged in a climate of conformity? Is it possible that a Van Gogh could have been produced in a climate of conformity? Or even a Freud? Dr. the period was one in which there was favorable reaction to work in neurology. There was nothing in Vienna to favor that in the very least. Jones: No. You can put it in terms of pressure.Dr. the greater the writer. because he would be harmed if he tried to benefit by any knowledge from outside himself and how he personally feels about things. Jones: It is hard to prove or demonstrate things of that sort. "Now that's the proper thing to say. Evans: In this general area. You do see creative work being produced in apparently unfavorable circumstances. creativity. If the move toward creative genius is strong enough. would you comment upon what effect these different climates might have upon productivity. creative genius must come forth in a social structure conducive to its emergence. yes. because some of them are very harmful to himself. Dr. sculptors and architects right and left all over the place simply flourishing. Dr. I think it was one of those rare cases where you wouldn't expect anything. but also for personal reasons.I suppose it's a relative matter. Dr. no doubt.It is merely a relative matter. you see. There are two sides to that. for instance. say political knowledge or what not. but I think Freud had mostly forgotten about it and had not made much of it.
Now take the case of "Hamlet". the basic foundation upon which production rests. Anybody can do that.It may not allow him to free his individuality adequately. Dr. enabling the person to more accurately estimate how consistent the production is. Now another consideration inherent in your question concerns the actual formulation of his various scientific theories. Dr. and when I say consistent. because I think all the way around psychoanalytic knowledge can be helpful to the critic.It probably had a current political reference. perhaps forgotten now. and where the intellectual analysis of the content is concerned. they can also go wrong when they merely translate. Dr. that was a play that was relevant on many different levels. Freud had an extraordinary sense of humor. Freud himself with his analysis of DaVinci suggests that we can in a very deterministic type of analysis understand how an individual may produce. Jones: Quite different.However. and also the intellectual content. Evans: Dr. and he tried to group them as every scientist does. Thus. and was very fond of jokes. With the critic. Evans: It is too superficial. Evans: With respect to the use of psychoanalytic theory and understanding.I think that is a very different thing from understanding the dynamics. you have gained merely superficial knowledge.Most of this. Dr. one brought to mind by your biography of Dr.For example. I am really not aware of that. to look at characters in literature in this manner. peculiar to the specific period of the play. Jones: I think that made it harder for him to recognize the Oedipus situation. so it may have been easy for him to do without it. it is consistent all the way through. which people then could understand. upon the critic's sensibility. surely. What other things can we say? Dr. a critic ought to be able to evaluate. On the other hand. liberal-minded type of man. Jones: Yes. etc. for example. humorous. his own general outlook on life. Which shall we take first now? I should think that there must be ultimately some form of curiosity. to what extent his personal penchant. And then there is also a third thing. to discover that there was within him a secret hatred of his father must have been very difficult. He was never brought up with a strong religious influence. that. there again we've got to distinguish. different layers. The aesthetic evaluation depends.Of course. there were particular jokes maybe. Dr. being of similar types of mind. Dr. certain things led him to take an interest in this. you suggested that with a critic this may be a different matter.He was very fond of his father. this internal aspect of the problem is not really important. and the other. But as regards any personal influences acting on his theories. Evans: This has become rather a "favorite pastime" of some.Do you think it possible that this age differential might be discernible in some of his formulations? Dr. That must have been due to something in his early life. and they got along very well. I mean it's true all the way through. just like Freud. a very interesting question. and the whole thing became unified. and I don't think that gets you very far. I should say that his theories were objective and originated as a result of his experience. 42 . he was an atheist. of course. let us take the fact that his father was so much older than his mother. served as an influence on him. Those are three quite different things. Freud. Jones.that's worthwhile. I'm quite definite about that. In fact. you have commented that with the author it may actually be a stifling thing. The critic's job is to assess both the aesthetic side of the work that he is reviewing or criticizing. fuller writer. it's different again. Dr. His father was a free-thinking. when it comes to the critic. Of course. Dr. Dr.On the other hand. They translate into this complex or that complex. it is obvious that his personal experiences must have influenced him a great deal in his general outlook on life.But let me be quite clear in what I mean about the writer before we discuss the critic. I think. That. For instance.Now in the case of Freud's own personal life. I didn't mean to say that being analyzed would be harmful to the writer. he would be a freer. Evans: Well. Jones: Yes. I meant that if a writer should be analyzed. he tried to provide a unifying hypothesis for them. He came across certain facts. Jones: Well. in what way do you feel his life may have influenced the direction of his psychoanalytic theories and the formulations therein? Dr. Why curiosity should take that particular direction would depend probably on more delicate infantile influences than are easy to put your finger on now. he got from his father. but rather that reading about it would be harmful. until you got deeper and deeper. which implies the need for freedom of his feelings. Jones: When you simply learn. however. I think a knowledge of psychoanalysis is very helpful. he would be clearer and more spontaneous. that is. That's one thing. concerns the impact of a genius's own personal life on what he produces. I think the main direction in which he was influenced was from the point of view of interest. witty. Now if any production is a really great work of art. I think your contribution more or less became a pioneer focus for this type of thinking. There were all sorts of social allusions at that time. there has been much research in recent years in which there has been some attempt to study the basic personality of individuals in the hope that what leads them into various professions or into various productive efforts can be ascertained. Evans: A certain intrinsic unity in the over-all analysis.
he's got this. his relationship with Jnng is an obvious example. respectable person. he was inclined to think that each new fellow he met was a fine fellow. and also a tendency to doubt. 43 .That's a different thing than an emotional attitude from which might stem such statements as. the year after the end of the First War. could their contents be classified under the realm of his genuinely empirical research? Dr. There was both a sort of credulous attitude and a skeptical attitude. Jones: One can form an estimate and say. So with respect to his books on group psychology. Evans: Some writers have said that one reason Dr. In Freud's case. of course. About loving. You nearly always are influenced for or against by some prejudice or emotional element stemming from your background. Jones: Yes. not only in all animals. Evans: In some of his later works on mental telepathy. but I don't think that it influenced his actual work or theories at all." or "I love all men. the death instinct was supposed to be not only a human thing. as well as his personal outlook. Dr. which means he tried to take an objective stand in viewing this. we. there was a tendency to believe. disillusionment." or a man who says. because he was a very.He thought very highly of Jung. I think that period in Freud's career marks the beginning of the ideological tone to which you referred. when he was writing the book. he may have been even more unwilling to see these things than many. and the other defect about him. "I love every man. there was something special where Freud was concerned. clairvoyance.—as anybody else. Of course. Beyond the Pleasure Principle (8). Jones: No. very much. very chaste and puritanical by nature at that time in his life. Dr. Dr. Jones: I think that there is a very sharp point at which we can make this distinction. when his expectations weren't met.You see. It's not all personal. strictly speaking. but they are always all mixed up. as opposed to an earlier time when it can be described as more scientific and objective? Dr. "I hate all men. in the final analysis.I think he tended to like people he met. and tended to expect and hope for more than he got. Evans: I know that in some of his later work he became. and following from that. There was an inherent tendency toward self-destruction. He went flat. but in vegetables as well. Jones: Like Hitler? I believe he did. that there was sufficient evidence to hold such and such a belief. be entirely objective. It's an idea like any other philosophical idea. though I don't think it influenced his theories much. the year 1919. Dr." One thinks that both of these extremes are abnormal. however. I think you've got to take into account the rational aspect. he considered. Dr. but a concept that applied to all living matter.It is very interesting that in his different statements one could see certain alternations.You can trace several things after that probably. A man who says. more speculative than scientific with his discussions of such things as religion and war. that it is not a scientific one. and so on. Dr. he was a rationalist. wonderful in all respects.He rather prepared for disillusionment. Evans: In short. make an intellectual judgment. and then he was disillusioned. Whether or not one considers the evidence sufficient in a given case to draw conclusions cannot. Undoubtedly. No doubt. shall I say. and I don't think that Freud was that lacking in objectivity. Jones: Yes. Oedipus complexes. thought the world of him. "Well." and so to speak. Jones: Yes. etc.In other words. even those which fell in that period. not a bit. Dr. he would be disappointed and drop the fellow. Evans: Do you feel that he was able to more or less separate in actuality the personal from what he produced? Dr. he had both. I mean. In this book he was getting into philosophy over his conception of the death instinct. Now one has to say that that is not a biological conception. Freud was able to probe so deeply into human personality and see the worst in man is that underneath he really had a deep hatred of man. Evans: When can we say that Freud's work became more a reflection of personal ideology. Very well.In fact. in the opinion of some. and he would feel badly about it. and so on. Dr. and the other. are aware that there was considerable anti‐ Semitism in the area in which Freud lived. rather than depending on intuition or emotion.Dr. very definitely." must have something wrong with him in either case. which is really the scientific part. his ideas got freer later as he found out more about human nature. that. Evans: Referring again to the influence of one's personal philosophy or ideology on one's creativity.That's purely personal. there are many people who tend to associate sexual theories with Judaism. Then. that. there is nothing objective about this kind of an emotional evaluation. a sort of disillusionment.Do you think that Freud's work could be better understood if we could separate this type of speculation from his more fundamental observations? Dr. or it was his opinion.That was a peculiarity of Freud. He had the same unwillingness to see some of the things he was uncovering through his work—recognition of infantile sexuality. I think man's a pretty poor creature. of course. aren't they? I mean. and one also has to say. "I hate every man. Dr.
of course. In some of the earlier experiences of his life which I know about. Dr. a very sensitive man. there were many people who became horrified over Freud's theories.I wonder if you might comment upon how Freud actually viewed this problem? Dr. Nobody can do absolutely everything he likes. of course. and that monogamy was inconsistent with psychoanalytic doctrine. there are inevitable frustrations in social life. a question that is very much the center of controversy. if it was actually true. Evans: To go a little further into this general problem. Jones: No. particularly in the United States and to some extent in England. we control the child almost completely and give him verv little freedom. and you are overlooking that when you talk about freedom.The mother isn't always in the same room. Dr. the developing child must be exposed to some frustrations. Unfortunately. Jones: Well. it's the Jewish environment that they really mean.In fact. Also. the distortion of a man's point of view and of his theories which occurs when they are subjected to various interpretations. that the Viennese mode of life was freer than at other places such as Berlin or London. Dr. His mother was very easygoing. What I should have said is that he was more moral and puritanical than his background. are what led him to write his last book. and so on. I think he was a sensitive man. then it would be the last place where you would discover repression. Evans: So it was Freud's psychoanalytic view. "Why is all this?" I'm sure he wondered. Utilizing this approach. rather puritanical. he had been aware of anti-Semitism all his life. Looking at this matter. one that probably thought a lot and asked. we have seen in many of our households children behaving in a destructive and antisocial manner with parents who tolerate this poor behavior because they fear they may frustrate their children. and limitations such as that begin as early in life as infancy. but I wouldn't have called her a puritanical person. Jones: He would recognize that frustrations are an inevitable part of living in a community.You see.You appeared to suggest that Freud came from a fairly puritanical type of background. We have one extreme which follows the disciplinarian approach that historically has been part of most of our cultures. As a result of this approach. Evans: Was Freud aware of anti-Semitism in so deep a sense that it troubled him? Dr. many laymen have referred to the "psychological approach" as a product of Freud's work. And yes. he was turned down every time. and certainly it is your view. No doubt she was moral in her behavior. that we shouldn't repress sexual drives lest we become neurotic. David Levy. (I should say no.) He encountered it in pretty strong form at different times. "What is there that is so peculiar about us? People don't sit on other people like that. which he thought was peculiarly silly. for instance. not necessarily indicating any innate tendency in the mother? Or would you say that there is an innate tendency to over-protect in all mothers in all cultures? 44 . "I always thought that that particular accusation must cover another one. because they believed that his theories more or less preached free love. Jones: For both of them? Dr. Then. you must learn to tolerate them. in a moral sense. For example. Dr. The infant has external frustrations. would you say that it is primarily a cultural pattern. sometimes when the child cries for her. free and easy. has postulated that there is an unfortunate tendency for an increasing number of mothers to over-protect their children. Freud said to me once. attempting to force upon him absolutely no restrictions or frustrating demands whatsoever.Also. Moses and Monotheism (9). a very interesting writer in the United States. Dr." Dr.I shouldn't have said his background. I know that he was set upon in fun.Dr. you touched upon a point which I think is very interesting. you are exposed to them anyway. many individuals have blamed psychoanalysis— Dr.You encounter it so often.I expect you are right. he was aware of how much of the content of his work was being ascribed to the local atmosphere in Vienna. Frustrations like these are inevitable.I wonder if Freud was aware of these misconceptions? Dr. It's all about the nature of Judaism. Jones: Yes. Evans: To leave this general problem of one's personal philosophy upon his work. Jones: Of course he was. is one of the amount of freedom our children should be allowed as they grow up. He can't go and defecate in the street. Dr. particularly in the United States.This over-protection which takes many forms essentially prolongs the infantilism of the child.Would this be correct? Dr. the other extreme has been a very permissive approach where we allow the child to develop his individuality.He wasn't given a title at the University for years and years and years.We have some extremes on this issue. the extent to which he experiences difficulty with these social frustrations we think depends upon the varying ease or difficulty he has in tolerating them. Evans: It's rather strange." These feelings. she is in another room. I should say probably yes. another inevitable frustration. Evans: For suggesting the unrestrained view. as far as I know certainly. that in order to develop frustra tion tolerance. such as only being allowed his mother's breast on certain occasions. Evans: Along the same line. and that he himself was probably. from American culture. Now. The point is that abolishing frustrations isn't the answer. which an individual must encounter.There must be frustrations. one that might have emerged. and this I don't know.
She. before you can change it. Dr. all the worst features of an undisciplined nursery. Since then. tie them up. deals with the conflict between the extreme advances in man's technological development and his very limited socio-psychological development. Dr. Evans: One view has been that certain types of seriously ill psychotic patients such as the schizophrenic with whom the psychotherapist is simply unable to communicate become more amenable to therapy through use of drugs. has not come far enough to insure us against such an event. By temporarily abolishing it. but again.In addition to the pioneer technique of psychoanalysis. we must judge there are no limits foreseeable to his power to attain happiness and secunty.It is now no longer massacre that is threatened.It can. you are no further along. I've written something on that very matter. Evans: So this is something that possibly would not be typical to any particular culture? Dr. chlorpromazine.Dr. variations of the original psychoanalytic approach. or what not. and above all of politics where statesmen of towering importance can display in their savagery. changing them is your aim. Whatever caused the tension is still there. he doesn't need that kind of protection.Under these conditions do you think the use of drugs is in order? Dr. in fact. Jones: Surely it is not peculiar to any culture. just like strait jackets in the old days—a practical matter. all of this reflects new developments in treating much more seriously disturbed patients. In fact. nor can we be sure that someone less mad may not bring it about. Jones: That's correct. because when you dampen the emotions in that way. it can be furthered or checked. and so on. "Amid the turmoil of conflicting ideas in which we live.Is there value in the patient becoming more amenable. Evans: Now another important problem. it comes back again. You can lower the degree of tension in the individual.As a matter of fact. greed and lack of foresight have not only failed to nourish those resources. you can give a drug that will make a person unconscious. although it may appear to be a way of making the patient more accessible. but are ruining them at a truly alarming pace. Still graver is the consideration that man's destructive powers have been so fortified by the recently acquired knowledge of new weapons that it is now within his reach to achieve devastation beside which the efforts of an Attila. Jones: I should say that there is a tendency for all mothers to over-protect. but you aren't changing anything. you're making them less accessible to change.They deal with those two fundamental instincts that Freud worked on so much— the sexual and the aggressive: "When we consider the breath-taking achievements of man in art and in science. Dr. forcing her to give up some of the manifestations of this tendency. many milder tranquilizers have been developed which are being dispensed by physicians on quite a large scale. it makes him less accessible. Evans: Now. while our socio-psychological development. Evans: Now. there seems to be one proposition commanding nearly universal assent. The control man has secured over nature has far outrun his control over himself. If you want to. such as the psychotic. The same principle is involved in lowering the degree of tension with barbituates. than in Germany. Jones: It's like sitting on a steam safety valve. to psychoanalytic therapy? No. the first one. but the possible extinction of all life on this planet. gets into a certain amount of conflict over this tendency. Man's chief enemy and danger is his own unruly nature and the dark forces pent up within him. let us say.Of course you can dampen it down. Dr. Man's unhappiness and the threats of doom overhanging him proceed from this unassailable truth. in the spheres of art. various other types of techniques for treatment of these disorders have been developed. be furthered by certain social attitudes. because as the child emerges into adult life. fear and unreasonableness.For example. the third volume of my Freud biography finishes on that note. If you take away the drug. give enough opium and you can dampen anything down. but it can't be created by any cultural thing. One of the most recent developments has been the use of tranquilizing drugs. How do you view this practice? Dr. of science. the thing on which it is based is biological. for example. of course. ultimately the soil and the minerals of the earth's crust. Jones: Yes. of course. Dr. so please allow me to read the final paragraphs. Evans: In other words. I think there has been more of this tendency in America. let us address ourselves to the problem of the treatment of mental disorders. have diminished the natural selection of quality. Jones: No. Moreover. You have to get hold of a thing before you can handle it. a Timurlane or a Genghis Khan are but the puny gestures of an infant. They have also brought about such an enormous increase in quantity of population that the time cannot be far distant when the resources of the earth to sustain it will be seriously strained. Dr. Dr. The advances in medical science. was first used here in France. which are now bound to continue rapidly. There needs only a madman in the seat of authority of the kind we have just witnessed to set this holocaust ablaze. articulated not so long ago by Julian Huxley. and. means have been created technologically that could destroy all mankind. I don't think so. but it probably does vary in strengths in different cultures. I don't think there is any evidence to show that any drug can change either the personality or the content of particular conflicts or ideas which may be disturbing the individual. it really is making him less so? Dr. I don't think it is very helpful. Jones: It then becomes a practical matter. It is not always easy for her. Among these are shock therapy. of course. In it arc three main strands. combined with the increase in general prosperity.But this vision is offset by one as somber as that is glowing.It is there. psycho‐ surgery. Dr. our ability in human relations. 45 .
to social. Interestingly enough.He also draws contrasts between the points of view of the two men. and Malinowski (24) began having an increasing impact on personality theory.In spite of the claims of the extreme champions of each of these positions. Jungian or Freudian scholars would in all probability challenge the declaration that any illuminations presented herein are new. The work of Rank and Sullivan has likewise been re-evaluated in terms of emphasis on the self. the name of Sigmund Freud will be remembered as that of the man who first ascertained the origin and nature of those forces. the individual "self. For example. even Freud (7) began to recognize that the social environment of the individual had to be accorded a more important role as a determinant of his behavior. In the latter phase of his career. In fact. As an apparent reaction-formation against these earlier deterministic positions. he indicated that he could see the virtue of ahistorical or field theoretical analyses as well. With this in mind. however." Part VII IN CONCLUSION—SOME GENERAL AND THEORETICAL OBSERVATIONS ON THE DIALOGUE CONTENT In this section. another shift in personality theory in a still different direction became evident. the pragmatic social determinism which began to be emphasized in personality theory was rapidly assimilated into the values of American society. Kierkegaard.However. which can be seen in the development of points of view of such individuals as Adler (1) and Rank (30). In Conclusion With the vast amount written by and about the inter‐ viewees represented in the present volume. and pointed the way to achieving some measure of control over them (15). led to the development of a theory which accounted for most of the individual's behavior in terms of biological-historical determinants. Sartre. and by the 1920's the so-called neo-Freudian positions were much in evidence. when we were attempting to determine whether Jung necessarily would emphasize the importance of historical analysis in understanding the individual. have been given the reader. to self-determinism as a means by which to account for the "human predicament. it would prove difficult to determine whether or not any significant insights. the author attempts to relate the contributions of Jung and Jones to the current mainstream of theoretical emphasis in personality theory. were "re-discovered. not presented elsewhere." evident in the renewed interest in such people as Lecky (22) and Angyal (2). personal responsibility of the individual has again been prominently placed in the forefront with perhaps good reason." To assist in gaining perspective.In fact. and Heidegger have become increasingly a focus of interest to social scientists." it must be underlined here. LeBon (21). They.At another point. Lazarus and Steinthal (20). and cultural-environmental influences. a focus of scientific thought was subjected to serious over-interpretation. This shift from biological. whether it be biological. Tillich. however. one must recognize that probably no simple conception of determinism. Jung reflects all of these trends at various points in the interviews.More specifically. Sullivan (33) and others began to assign a somewhat prominent position within their approaches to personality to situational. Horney (14). May (26). a clear shift from Freud's emphasis on biological‐ historical determinism to an emphasis on social-situational determinism was increasingly apparent in personality theory. of course. Jung's responses suggested a surprisingly well-balanced acceptance of the importance of both types of analyses. later to be interpreted in terms of an unconscious and repressed sexuality. social." or "ego-autonomy. Lewin's (23) field theory became an extreme of an ahistorical social-environmental-centered approach. however. As was the case with Freud's biological determinism. this type of theory postulated that there were patterns of developing biological impulses which could be detected during the first five years of life. McCurdy (27). along with others. by his own admission.The early social conceptualizations of people such as Durkheim (3). Fromm (11). is really a matter of emphasis. the author decided to share with the reader what he personally regards as some of the high spots of the responses made to his questions by Jung and Jones.This. showing some tolerance toward a composite of these influences. which the reader will note is clearly reflected in the Jones interview. however.As is not uncommon. there has been a gradual but steady growth of concern about the individual and his place within this morass of "shaping forces. is quite compatible with the biological determinism of Freud. Apparent shifts away from earlier philosophical positions may be detected that fluctuate in the degree to which responsibility is invested in the individual for his own behavior. can adequately and completely account for the complex behavior of the individual or the group.This is particularly interesting in view of the priority which Freud had bestowed upon primarily historical determinants of personality. as well as the obvious historical deterministic implications of Jung's collective or race unconscious. it might be of value to the reader to explore the trends in personality theory since the turn of the century as seen by the writer. whose ideas had been virtually ignored originally. supplemented by others such as Rogers (32). The Darwinian-biological influence on Freud.At several points in the dialogue. probably rightfully so." What might be called an emphasis on self-determinism. dissented from Freud's extreme biological-historical determinism. or radical free-will-self-responsibility. visible in many of Jung's observations is that portion of his focus which."If our race is lucky enough to survive for another thousand years. and Maslow (25). Thus.Earlier writers. Jung's reference to and 46 . and notes what to him are particularly unique and interesting insights provided by the interview content. Since then. Kardiner (18). social. The phenomenological and existential philosophers such as Husserl. without regard to whether or not they are entirely "new. was also suggested in the interview with Jones. Frankl (6)." has become increasingly evident.
Certainly he accepted this task of explanation and the necessity to clarify honestly and without pretension. such as the one with the girl who believed she had a snake in her abdomen. Rhine. I'm certain that the reader was as charmed as the author at Jung's attempt to make certain we understood that not only did he "invent" the commonly known terms "introvert" and "extrovert. One interesting point of disagreement between Jung and Freud centered around the importance of the power motive.For example. which encompassed para-psychological events. vehemently denying these accusations. in fact. though many of his conclusions are hardly congruent with the ideas of present-day cultural anthropologists. may be one of the most interesting insights he provided in these interviews. not visible to the reader.He seemed to be poking fun at Freud for discovering this one archetype and assuming that the whole of mankind pivoted around it. might be someday supported by new abstract forms of mathematics. however. discounted Freud's writings in this area as being a product of Freud's philosophy of life reflected in his later writings and not to be confused with Freud's earlier truly scientific pronouncements. although consciously ignored by Freud.He insisted on viewing Freud's conception of the libido as being centered on sexual energy. Jung lost much of his normal geniality. accompanied his discussion of our questions concerning Freud's oral and anal levels of development. rather than clearly disagreeing with him. B. that this phenomenon has a scientific-statistical base. the reader will recall. but he did suggest that they were so self‐ evident as to be unimportant. however. and did not feel that a genuine reorganization of the personality of the patient could be expected from a psychotherapy based on the use of such drugs. the author was delighted with Jung's disarming way of admitting one of his ideas was complex or not easily understood.These responses were for the most part in keeping with traditional psychoanalytic reservations concerning any artificial supplement to the natural process of psychotherapy. due to variations in cultural patterning.In response to questioning on this point.On the other hand.Likewise.He even implied that his theory of synchronicity. there was a twinkle in his eyes which was. he seemed to feel that many of the details of psychosexual development as described by Freud were rather assinine. the author has found many of Jung's conceptualizations in describing his intuitive function rather vague. both Freudians and Jungians have characteristically been even more hostile to the use of shock therapy or psychosurgery than the expressed reservations of Jung and Jones in these interviews toward the use of tranquilizers as supplementary therapeutic measures. the Oedipus complex to Jung was but one out of an infinite number of archetypes. suggesting that youth in this country are over-rebellious and that our existence is characterized by such a rapid pace." but that the term "complex" was originated by him as well. as well as encompassing other needs of the individual besides sex. here. of course. but on this occasion Jung responded to this question in the following manner: 47 .Elsewhere in the literature there are elaborate discussions on the pros and cons of this issue.In fact. at least in part.For example. though certainly not the unequivocal acceptance shown by Dr. Finally. Jung's reactions to our questions concerning specifics in Freudian theory often reflected a form of tolerance. that he probably set the stage for such literal interpretations on the part of Jung because of the need to make the questions both clear and provocative. This may explain the renewed interest in Jung and his work in many quarters.The reader will recall at one point in response to a question concerning the intuitive-introverted type how readily Jung admitted how difficult it was to explain. would place Freud's conception of the libido as being in most respects as broad as Jung's. coupled with the molding of the behavior precipitated by them showing differentiation.He then proceeded to give a lengthy description involving some remarkably interesting case histories.Their responses were similar in that both felt such drugs merely "dampened" the emotions of the patients.understanding of cultural determinants was apparent through his descriptions of the various cultures he had studied. he seemed to see the libido as having an important power component. Many individuals have been surprised to discover that Freud believed very strongly in the presence of extrasensory perception. in this same area Jung not only agreed that forms of extrasensory perception are clearly compatible with his intuitive function but appeared to contend by indicating his agreement with the statistical findings of J.Furthermore. disregarding completely the other archetypes. Jones. his concern with the nature of an intrinsic self and the individuation process is certainly consistent with the current interest in a selfdeterministic perspective in personality theory.The writer must confess.As a reader will recall.It is unlikely that Freud ever intended to be interpreted as literally as Jung often did during the course of the interviews. It was amusing to note also how both Jung and Jones reflected an old European view of the United States. Jung was more likely to suggest that Freud hadn't gone far enough or was dealing with something obvious. we can only be toned down by tranquilizers. For example. the author was vitally interested in the frequently heard accusation that Jung had been in sympathy with the Nazis and may. One engaging and interesting area to the author involved the responses of both Jung and Jones to the question posed as to their attitudes concerning the use of tranquilizers to make "out of contact" patients amenable to therapy. Jones. in this instance as in many others the twinkle in Jung's eyes made it clear to the author that he was not engaging in blatant braggadocio. how clearly Dr. Jung contended that Nietzsche's power conceptions. though Jung virtually never challenged the author's often necessarily incomplete as well as literal descriptions of Freud's conceptions. on many occasions Jung was probably creating "straw men" with respect to Freud's ideas. When Jung criticized American physicians in their too slow awakening to an understanding of psychoso matic medicine.He did not dismiss these ideas.It is interesting to note. In his efforts to "lay bare" some of the essences of Jung's theory of personality.However. The apparent compatibility to Jung of a theory of universal archetypes joined in each individual's collective unconscious. the somewhat facetious attitude which he assumed did not obscure the fact that he clearly believed his early work with tubercular patients had demonstrated some fifty years ago the importance of understanding psychological determinants of physical illness. in response to one of our questions. Although this was not presented in the filmed portion of our interviews. were nonetheless masked in terms of sex in Freud's theories.Definite sarcasm.Again. however. have been anti-Semitic. Jones' reaction to our question concerning Freud's alleged preoccupation with the sexual motive.
more complex forms of scientific inquiry will some day validate even his least concrete conceptualizations. but had only complete contempt for what he represented and did in every respect. The results showed that both film and script groups improved significantly in their learning scores but that the difference in the degree of learning between the two groups was not significant. and frankly spiritual problems. Jones' reactions have not only presented him in an interesting new light as he is compared to Jung. not only to greater numbers of students. The interviewer was Dr.He concluded by asking how anyone could truly understand the breadth of his theories concerned with understanding the individual and accuse him of being prejudiced toward believers in a religion which has reflected the wisdom of the ages. intended as filmed alternatives to the lecture portion of a course already in the curriculum of the psychology department and entitled " The Psychology of Personality. Director of the Radio-TV-Film Center at the University of Houston. but more importantly. along with careful pre-achievement and post-achievement examinations on the material. when Freud and the others fled the Third Reich. he is suggesting that higher. and the production work was organized and directed by Dr. The proposed interviews were filmed in Paris and Zurich during the latter part of July and the early part of August. Evans.These proposed interviews were designed eventually to take their place in a larger group of thirty films. Exploratory work by Dr. designed to particularly emphasize the film version of the Jung interviews ( 5 ). Because the Department of Psychology. Meaney and the author. to introduce concurrent qualitative improvement in the instruction itself. since Germany had been so central to it.He remained puzzled as to why this was construed as being evidence of sympathy for the Nazis. some of whom have been among the more significant developers of many of his ideas. and one interview with Dr. France.He seemed to feel that a creative breakthrough might alter the course of what we believe the true domain of science to be. academically one of the strongest areas at the University of Houston. mystic. We also hope that Dr. Ernest Jones in Paris. Be that as it may.He cited experience after experience to illustrate the nature of his relationship with Jewish individuals throughout his life and indicated how Jews who have known him most intimately. John W.To him. G.His assumption of the editorship of the Berlin psychoanalytic journal was simply his means of maintaining at least this scholarly center of the movement. and had had previous and extensive work in film and television. John W. another area which seemed to trouble him. have taken it upon themselves to contradict the myth of his anti‐ Semitism. Richard I. and would not be intended to replace but rather to supplement the same material in printed form. and also to insure that the questions answered by the subjects would be those most appropriate for inclusion within the context of a particular course. was interested in the basic hypothesis of the project. was the accusation that he was a mystic. psychologist. and scientist had long been engaged in battle with Jung the philosopher and speculator. 1957. aside from his formulations concerning personality which are reflected in the present volume. there was a great danger that the power of the psychoanalytic movement would diminish. this department was invited by the project's supervisory Committee on Accelerated and Improved Instruction to select an area of instruction and to propose a specific series of filmed recordings appropriate for testing the basic hypothesis.The author's interpretation here is that when Jung objects to being designated a mystic. A complete printed transcript of the film's content was submitted to one group of students.It was as if Jung the physician. Jung for his enthusiastic willingness to play the role of educator in the highest sense as he patiently responded to our questions hour after hour. This hypothesis would further imply that such recordings would be of outstanding archival as well as of immediate instructional value. Jung in Zurich.A companion group was shown the film itself and given similar examinations. Appendix A Report on the Jung-Jones Film Project: Submitted by the University of Houston to the Fund for the Advancement of Education 1 The basic hypothesis of the project was that comparatively inexpensive filmed recordings of statements by great thinkers could be used as primary sources of education for college-level instruction. Jung appeared to be troubled by the label." The idea of using the interview technique was to insure spontaneity in the statements by the great thinkers by having the statements made directly to a person rather than to a camera. producing a series of hour-long filmed interviews with Dr.We are hopeful that the ideas herein presented provide a broader range of communication of some of Jung's fundamental conceptualizations. Evans. Also reflected in his responses. tends to deal with metaphysical.The project was approved because it seemed to offer a particularly striking way of applying the advantages of film and television techniques to an established curriculum so as to make instruction available. Notwithstanding the fact that much of his writing. C.He admitted that Hitler was a phenomenon to be studied. Switzerland. In 48 . Meaney. An intensive program of experimentation to test one of the films in the group was later set up by Dr. Evans of the Department of Psychology soon revealed the possibility of ____________________ 1 Modified by the author for the present volume from the original report prepared by Dr. transcendental. but reveal him further as an intellectual and scholar of the first order. we were indebted to Dr.
other words. who did not originally see the film.". This article brought inquiries as to the availability of the films from as far away as Australia." When projected into this larger scope. G. excitement. and they were shown a portion of one of the films. "When can we see the other film?". as effectively as the ordinary methods of the lecture and assigned readings. Jones and Dr. Students in the test groups." Corresponding reactions were not so frequent from people reading the script of the interview without viewing the film. and persons to be involved. sometimes as entertaining as it was informative. Jones' personality and thought. They are able to communicate information. toward C. that was interesting. The widespread interest aroused by the project at other universities. In terms of university space. and they show significant promise in functioning to provoke student interest. financial resources and administration there are further striking implica tions. individuals on and/or around campuses in a great many cities. "I learned more about Jung's theory than I have from reading any of his books. changes in attitudes toward the filmed interview device. Dr. Jung. Additional experiments designed to measure changes in student attitudes as a result of viewing the film. the interviews constitute the only feasible means of complementing his ideas with the impact of his personality. Eventual telecasts of the films over the University's educational station produced many enthusiastic telephone calls and letters. the content material communicated by the two media of film and print was approximately equal. the findings of these experiments suggest the possibility of a definite. Furthermore.M. and in the case of Dr. Appendix B An Exploratory Investigation of the Psychological and Educational Impact 49 . Houston Post television critic. 1958: "Monday night on Channel 8 one of the legendary figures of our time spoke for an hour on a subject of broad general interest and on which he is considered by many the world's greatest living authority. both on and off campus. as a critical factor in the educational process.". and toward a group of Jung's theoretical concepts tended to indicate that filmed interviews with important thinkers are comparatively more effective than conventional teaching methods in activating student interest and in modifying students' attitudes. invested by Dr. by means of educational television). needing to be renewed in person each semester. it facilitated a permanent and.Informal verbal comments from the students after viewing the film included such remarks as: "Gee. Once available on film. The appropriate administrative procedure for extending the use of films as primary source material in education would doubtless include a system of nationally representative advisory committees to select the areas. certainly a desirable combination in presenting any important contributor's ideas. "The next hour-long film in the series will be telecast at around 9:30 P. and the peripheral reinforcements of learning occasioned by the sensation of personal contact with a great thinker. time. It must be borne in mind that these experiments involved only one film out of a series of five interview films and that even the entire group of five films is designed to be only a small part of a projected group of thirty films. later asked for screening opportunities. most of what Dr. surprisingly. Even students in other courses wanted to see the films and to hear personal anecdotes of the production operations. Jung had to say was quite comprehensible to the layman and. Jung. and "I never knew that Jung was such a dynamic individual. immediately following KUHT's fifth anniversary program. This evidence would seem to indicate that such films show definite promise as a teaching device.. Friday. and discussions with many authorities concerning the basic hypothesis and methods employed indicate that there is a wide applicability for this teaching device in other fields in addition to psychology. indeed. for May 21.The members of this group were much impressed and their comments were highly complimentary. offering students higher motivation. also since deceased. qualitative improvement in teaching. methods. Jung as a person. was not a temporary endowment.The tone of local public reaction can be indicated by a few comments extracted from the column of Mr. Reactions to the filmed interviews were almost universally favorable. in each case a definitive accomplishment. intended ultimately to constitute the equivalent of the traditional lectures in a course entitled " The Psychology of Personality. in some instances at least. less carefully controlled experimentation attempting to compare the effectiveness of the usual class room lecture with the effectiveness of the filmed interview in the same subject-matter field seemed to give a definite edge to the interview film.g. Faculty members throughout the university seemed favorably impressed both by the accomplishment of the films themselves and by the accompanying publicity for the university. Ernest Jones died a few months following the interview.David Westheimer. Such a system would most easily establish the project at an inter-university and national level within each discipline. The time involved in making the interviews. The Education Committee of the American Institute of Biological Sciences happened to be meeting on the campus of the University of Houston during the month of August." There was also favorable national reaction from many sources following the article which appeared in Time Magazine for August 19. 1957. The teaching involved can easily be scheduled for patterns of maximum efficiency or in any combination of patterns suitable for individual groups of students.I urge everyone within reach of a TV set to take advantage of an opportunity to see and hear one of the towering figures of our time. 1958. "While there was a certain amount of material in Monday's interview primarily of interest to the student or teacher of psychology. such teaching interviews are accessible upon demand to widely scattered groups of students and interested persons (e. affording this particular production additional stature as one of the final records of Dr.
The first part of the study was designed to determine the effects of the filmed form of the interview on student learning as contrasted with the printed form. About the middle of the semester. 1.4 17.5 20. who as a graduate student assisted in this investigation. 1961. we were not only interested in academic achievement but also the types of attitude changes which took place as a function of the personality characteristics of the student sample utilized. now at the University of Florida. 31) which suggest that differences in media of communication per se appear to be unrelated to conventional indices of learning (see Table 1). Attitude Changes and Personality Attributes of the Subjects.Thanks are accorded Dr. concluded that lack of appropriate materials was one of the important factors inhibiting the educational use of films. and a complete printed transcript of its content was prepared as a control. The present study was designed to answer the following questions: ____________________ 1 Presented as part of the "New Instructional Medium" Symposium on September 4. Results The results showed that both film and printed transcript groups improved significantly from their pre‐ achievement scores but that the difference in learning increments between the two groups was not statistically significant. at the American Psychological Association meetings. one group viewed the actual film while the other group was permitted only to read the printed transcription of the film.6 Script ** 2. This is consistent with a number of previous reports printed elsewhere (4.1 ** 9.Miller (28) also points out that good films achieving stated objectives are in short supply. after interviewing 4000 elementary and secondary school teachers in the state of Washington. The subjects chosen were a group of undergraduate students taking a senior course in the psychology of personality.1 10. positive or negative) in student attitudes toward the content being communicated. The rationale of the present study is suggested by certain previous reports. Osgood (29) developed a generalized attitude scale composed of a series of bipolar adjectives in which an individual places a check along a continuum of these adjective pairs which corresponds to his feelings about a particular concept. Hite (13).of a Filmed Dialogue with Carl Jung 1 Introduction The present investigation was an exploratory attempt aimed at determining the effectiveness of the filmed interview technique with respect to student interest and learning. TABLE 1 Pre and Post Achievement Mean Scores for Film and Script Group Film Pre Post Difference 9. What effect does the filmed interview with an outstanding contributor in a discipline have on learning in that discipline as contrasted with more conventional modes of teaching? 2. For the second part of the experiment to determine the nature of attitude changes in the students as a function of seeing the filmed interview and determine personality characteristics which would predispose the subjects to react favorably or unfavorably toward the film. 19.e. At the end of the experimental session. 1.5 8. He also indicates the need for new techniques in film demonstrations. Larry Simkins. In so doing. Approximately six weeks later. Experimental Design One of the Jung interview films approximately one hour in length was selected for this pilot study. the experimenter administered a pre-achievement standardized test based on the content of the interview with Carl Jung and the vocabulary scale of the Wechsler Intelligence Scale. Achievement Change.The students were then divided into two equal groups matched on the basis of the pre‐ achievement and intelligence scores. What effect does the filmed interview technique have in determining (a) amounts of shift and (b) direction of shift (i. we used the Osgood Semantic Differential Scale as the instrument to measure attitude change. the achievement test was again administered to both groups.It was felt that the experiment might also reveal some of the personality characteristics which are correlated with shifts of attitude as a function of the particular content within the film.Factor analytic studies revealed 50 .
8 ** Attitude toward Jung's Concepts Pre-Mean Score 133. toward Carl Jung as a person.68 *** —.0 Difference 3.At the same time. D. Taylor Anxiety Scale.05 level of confidence. and also toward his theoretical concepts. Aesthetic 2. and activity.46 ** 51 . Extrapunitiveness 2. ** Significant beyond the . TABLE 2 Mean Achievement Scores for Film and Script Groups Script Group Film Group Difference Amount Gain in Achievement 10. C.55 —. Impunitiveness Wesley Rigidity Scale Allport-Vernon Study of Values 1. We were interested in three main attitudinal dimensions: attitudes toward interviewing as a teaching device. Results The results indicated a highly significant change in attitude in all three dimensions (see Table 3).01 level of confidence. The experimenter elected to use the evaluative dimension in the present study.three main dimensions: evaluative. In the beginning of the semester. Picture Frustration Test. —.Approximately two months later. potency. the Jung interview was shown to this group and the Osgood attitude scale was re-administered. since it appeared to lend itself most appropriately to the measurement of attitudes toward the group of concepts presented in the interview.2 Post-Mean Score 148. and the Allport‐ Vernon Study of Values.1 2.4 * ____________________ * Significant beyond the .2 Difference 2. they were administered a battery of personality tests including the Rosenzweig ____________________ ** Significant beyond .51 ** ** B.9 ** Attitude toward Jung Pre-Mean Score 29. Wesley Rigidity Scale.64 *** . Edwards Personal Preference Schedule. as a result of the interview. Thus. Rosenzweig Picture Frustration Test 1.45 * —. TABLE 4 Significant Correlations between Personality Variables and Shift in Attitude toward Jung and/or His Concepts A.5 (not significant) P = . Social Taylor Anxiety Scale . and toward a group of his theoretical concepts. F-Scale. responded more favorably toward the use of interviews as a teaching technique.6 8. the students.6 Difference 15.20 TABLE 3 Mean Shift in Attitude as a Function of the Film Attitude toward Interviewing as a Teaching Technique Pre-Mean Score 31.2 Post-Mean Score 33. a group of undergraduate sophomore students (N = 22) taking a course in experimental psychology were administered the Osgood Scale.3 Post-Mean Score 34. Thematic Apperception Test. toward Jung as a person.01 level of confidence.
The practice and theory of individual psychology. A. Another result suggests that some personality characteristics of the subjects. seems to be the prototype of (in his own term. It would be interesting. shy and more prone to be introspective in his dealings with environmental relations.Personality determinants of attitudinal change have been largely neglected heretofore in studies of this nature. are nevertheless provocative and should encourage further research of this nature. 1933. although shifting very favorably toward Jung as a person.A rather broad interpretation of the test results might be that the individual who manifests "extroversive" reactions identifies with Jung and is thus more predisposed to respond favorably toward him. there was a significant inverse correlation between rigidity as measured by the Wesley Rigidity Scale and the amount of shift in attitude. for instance. 3. It was found that students exposed to the interview. characterize these two groups of individuals. Foundations for a science of personality. using one of the series of hour-long interviews with Carl Jung as a model. New York: Commonwealth Fund. the extrovert.02 level of confidence. 1941.The personality tests. New York: Harcourt. and toward Jung himself.The question arises as to what kinds of distinct personality characterics. toward interviewing as a teaching technique. on film or in the printed form. repression being the most predominant mode of defense used to handle the anxiety arising from such incidents.Thus.There were significant changes in attitude in a more favorable direction as measured by the Osgood Semantic Differential Scale. to the extent that the impunitive person is unable to identify with his opposite as represented by Jung. although rather limited in their predictive usefulness. is quick to deny it. E. whereas the more aesthetically inclined individual tends to shift less. Adler. meticulous. he exhibits "extroverted" tendencies in contrast with the individual who is rather submissive. A. increased significantly in knowledge of Jung's concepts as measured by an achievement test. remained fairly neutral or reacted negatively toward his theoretical concepts. *** Significant at the . although rather limited in scope. revealed further interesting findings. ** Significant at the . an individual who places an emphasis on social activities responds more favorably toward Jung. Summary This was an exploratory attempt to determine the impact of a teaching interview with great contributors to a discipline on student achievement and attitudes.These correlations were interpreted and suggestions for further research were discussed. In a limited sense. 52 .The extrapunitive individual is one who reacts to frustration in an ego-defensive manner by projecting blame or hostility against some person or obstacle in his environment.01 level of confidence. or reluctant to deviate from certain set patterns of behavior are also less prone to change their attitudes when introduced to this novel instructional device. Jung. It seemed that the value system of the individual as measured by the Allport-Vernon Study of Values also involved important variables influencing the amount of shift. if any. Still other students reacted favorably toward Jung's concepts but remained neutral with respect to Jung as an individual. and several of his theoretical variables that were correlated with attitudinal change. Discussion From these results it would appear that teaching via the dialogue was quite effective in terms of achievement examination results. as measured by a group of personality tests. the impunitive individual. quite contrary to popular belief (which is based on the content of his writings).On the other hand. the presence of a great contributor on film seemed to be a factor of considerable importance in activating student interest and in changing students' attitudes (toward him) in a more favorable direction. In addition. How much of the shift of attitudes is attributable to these personality variables per se? The methodology utilized in the present investigation offers to be a promising approach upon which to evaluate entire courses utilizing the interviews with outstanding contributors as a teaching device. indeed) ____________________ * Significant at the . often the shy introvert. The Rosenzweig Picture Frustration Test tended to indicate that extrapunitiveness was positively associated and impunitiveness negatively associated with the amount of shift in attitude. 2. Therefore.This is not inconsistent with the "extroversive-introversive identification" hypothesis mentioned above. by George Simpson. he is also predisposed to resist a change in his initial attitudes. Bibliography 1.There was an attempt also to determine some of the personality determinants associated with attitude changes. The present findings. The division of labor in society. New York: MacMillan. Transl. who encounters frustration. 1927. were related to the tendency to change attitudes toward Jung. Some of the students. to trace further the differential shift in attitudes evident in the present investigation. Angyal.This tends to indicate that the individuals who can be designated as compulsive. For instance. He is quite aware of and responds readily to environmental cues.Other students reacted negatively toward his theoretical concepts. At least tentative support of the fundamental hypotheses implicit in the utilization of filmed interviews with "great masters" as a teaching device was presented. Durkheim.05 level of confidence.
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