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INTERVIEW Zan Perrion
Adam Gilad Gilad Creative Media, Inc.

March 2010

ADAM
Hey, welcome! This is Adam Gilad - and today we are going to talk about, in our training for dating and attraction over thirty-five and over forty, we are going to talk about inhabiting, embodying, honing, and perfecting your Lover archetype. And there is no-one in the world more qualified to talk about this than my friend Zan Perrion of “The Way of Attraction.” Zan, welcome!

ZAN
Thanks Adam. How’re you doing?

ADAM
I’m doing great! I’ve known you for, I don’t know, about five years. You have an exceedingly unique way of living your life. I will just tell everyone out here that you are one of the best teachers in the world on the really gentle, sweet, “loverly” but compelling art of seduction. And the great thing is you’re Canadian - so you’re really nice about tit!

ZAN
That’s perfect! Exactly!

ADAM
That gives a whole different edge!

ZAN
That’s great!

ADAM
You have been well-known in Attraction circles for a long time. And one of the things I love about you is that you live… you “walk the talk”! You live an amazing life. You are roughly my age - you are in your forties - and… say

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something about (before we even get into it) about the huge life change you made a few years ago and how you live now - as a lover of life; as a lover… someone who actually loves being alive. And then we will take that into how we bring that to women.

ZAN
Okay. With me it is like I… I had a corporate job for a lot of years; but it was never really “me”. And so, as you know, a fair number of years ago I basically quit into nothing; and sold all my possessions, sold my apartment; gave everything I owned away. Actually I never sold any of my possessions; I sold my apartment and gave my possessions away. And then I just, without any thing fall into - no safety net - just started to travel, and speak, and think, and philosophize and do all that kind of stuff. So I have definitely had a different life, in the last six years or so, than most people have had.

ADAM
And tell us about what you have been doing exactly.

ZAN
Well I think, you know, as you said I go way back in as far as some of the early eras of Dating and Attraction type of coaching and seminars, and I have been doing seminars for years. And I have travelled; I have spoken at universities; I have done all kinds of different programs that I have had over the years, and products etc. And you know, I am still kind of a gypsy these days. I am still completely homeless and “possessionless” - and I still wander, chasing treasure and magic! And, you know, what is important, I think an important thing is that I emphasize to people, or students who take my program, is that I am not advocating a lifestyle and that everyone should abandon house and home and wander off into the wild and yonder like I have. However, I do strongly, strongly advocate that they take the spirit of adventure and put it into their lives - whether they are married or… inter their career or whatever - so that we don’t have the sense of settling.

ADAM
You waited until your child, I believe, or children… child?

ZAN
Yes I have a daughter and she is now in her early twenties. And I spent most of her growing-up years with her, or all of it. And now she is launched into the world and I am wandering around!

ADAM
Well I’m a year behind you! So for someone who is not - and I told my kids, my sons, I said, “You know, the day the second of you goes off to college, you know,

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dial me up in Italy!” is what I told them! or possibly Australia, Cambodia… It’s a big world! But what do you say to somebody about this “spirit of adventure” who can’t get up and leave? Maybe we are talking to a single dad here, or someone who really can’t leave his job at this point. How would you get that spirit of (I am going to add the words “romantic adventure” because I am going to tie it into something you have talked about, which is how can you be a fantasy for women - we will get to that - but how can you bring romantic adventure into your lifestyle, into your life, into your aura, if you really can’t pick up and leave?

ZAN
Well, you know, the first thing I will say to that is let us be certain of that term, “You can’t pick up and leave.” Because most of us are doing things we don’t love. And, you know, I speak and lecture at universities and stuff, and I tell students, “Never do for a minute what you do not love. And if you are doing something you don’t love, then you should immediately stop it.” Because, like you said, there is a great world out there - there are all kinds of opportunities and possibilities. So, I mean, that is thirst thing I would say, is like, be certain you know what you want. Be certain you have got up in the morning and said “This is who I am and this is what I want my life to look like” And if what you are doing right now is what you want, then you are okay. And now then, take the spirit of what we are talking about, the spirit of curiosity, in our relationships - the spirit of aliveness, of charm, of sexual masculinity - and inject it into your relationships and everything you do. So it is kind of a two-pronged thing.

ADAM
What are some practical examples of that; taking the spirit of curiosity and aliveness into your life, wherever you are, right now?

ZAN
Well, in a relationship, for instance, if a man is on a date, the first thing he is trying to do is kind of share his résumé with her. And there is no aspect of curiosity about who this woman is who is sitting across from him. And so a practical thing is to basically ask yourself, “What am I curious about this woman who is joining me, or in my relationship? What am I curious about her?” And explore the notion of curiosity - because curiosity begets curiosity, and I think it is a very powerful tool. And then she will go home saying to her friends, “Wow, I met a man and I went out on a date with him last night - and he really listens!” - which is what women are always wanting.

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ADAM
It’s true. Men don’t listen. I forget the exact study, but there was a statistic about men and women and who starts more sentences with the word “I”. And it was something like a seventy percent difference; men started a lot more sentences with the word “I”…

ZAN
Wow!

ADAM
And I will add something else here, which is a sort of a known principle amongst screenwriters here in Hollywood, which is that characters in movies often we are compelled by them because they are recognized to be something other than what everybody else recognizes them as. Somebody or some force recognizes them as being special. And there is a joy that we feel in experiencing that with them. It when someone falls in love with us; or a character is recognized - it could be OB1 recognizing, you know, Luke Skywalker!

ZAN
Yeah!

ADAM
Or it could be - oh, that movie, I just saw it, and it is really funny and dumb - I call it “He just wants to get into you” but it is “He’s Just Not That Into You” where the character just finally recognizes her for being just “loveworthy”.

ZAN
Oh yes. Yes.

ADAM
So people want to be recognized as special! And it is not just a light, sentimental dating thing. It is a huge, epic, mythic need that we all have, to feel significant. So what are some ways that, besides just curiosity - I know you are an expert at this - but making women feel special, like really special?

ZAN
Well, you know, like I have my own thoughts obviously, about things; and I go against probably most of the conventional wisdom. Like to make a woman feel special, when you say that, to me it means “What does it mean to celebrate a woman? What does it mean to have that concept of a love for women?” Like, whenever I am in a group of men, like in the seminar for instance, I will ask the question, “How many of you love women?” And they are all sitting there serious, and taking notes, and quiet. And the moment I ask this question, you know, “Raise your hands guys - who loves women here?” everybody sits up

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straight, their back arches, their hand goes up in the air; they start to smile, they come out of their shell - and they say, “Yes, we love women!” And then the next thing I say to them is, “Why, if you love women the way you say you do, and the way you came alive right now, why do you hide this from the world? Why is it that that stays in you - with your smile on your face and your hand in the air, saying, “Yes, I love women!” - why do you not proclaim it to the world? I think, to me, that is the epitome of making women feel “lovely” - not “lusted after”, not an object. But to make them feel lovely is to celebrate them, and say, “Yes, I love women - and you are a perfect example of that!”

ADAM
Okay. So I am always about practicality, because I have been teaching for years as well, and I know men - especially men - want practical examples. So when you say to “celebrate a woman”, what are some ways you can do that, besides complimenting them on their looks - which is the default measure?

ZAN
Well let me qualify that; because it has been said for years - people say, “Well, Zan is teaching us how to compliment women…” - and we know that complimenting women doesn’t work because they have heard it over, and over, and over again all their life. And so we say, “Wow, you look so beautiful! Your eyes are wonderful!” - you know, all these things. And we know that she has heard it. But what I am talking about is the spirit. It is a different thing. Because compliments, it comes… it is the intent behind the compliment. For instance, if I say to a women, “You look fantastic. Your eyes are great.” She has heard it before. But what I tend to do is (and it took me a long time to understand and realize how I actually do speak) when I compliment a woman, I actually compliment HER in the context of all women. And I will explain that: what I mean by that is when I am complimenting her, I am complimenting the essence of the feminine that I see in her, that she represents. And it is subtle - but it is a HUGE difference. It is almost… a practical way of saying it is, “You look lovely in that dress.” Or I would say it like this: “Look at you in that dress. I love women. Look at you!” In other words, I never, ever, EVER hold back the fact that I completely adore women and I love their company. I speak it far and wide. If I am on a date with a woman sitting across from me that I really adore, I will say that; I will say, “ You cam on a date with me? Look at you in that dress - you look so fantastic! I love women so much!”

ADAM
What is the impact?

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ZAN
Because what you are complementing is the essence of women, of which she is an embodiment.

ADAM
And what is the impact that you think that has on her?

ZAN
I think what it does is it makes… it subconsciously I think what happens to her is she is saying, “Okay, I am in the presence of a man who loves women, who is not afraid to proclaim it to the world - and because he does, I must be a REALLY good example of that. He must see something in me, if he is with me right now!” There is something along those lines I think that kicks in - and I am not quite sure.

ADAM
That’s interesting. I think, yes, I think you have got a good point - which is “If he loves women and he loves ME, then he is not mono-focused just on me - and I must be a great representative of my species, of women.” There is another element I think which makes you - and I love using this word - it makes you “vast” in her eyes!

ZAN
Vast. Yes, that’s good.

ADAM
Yes. Women love someone with the “vast” masculine; someone who has perspective. And especially as we come into the second half of our manhood, you know, the broader the perspective we have on the world, the more safe and more Kingly we seem to them. And when you say, “I love women”, it is a principle. And you are not just… you are clearly not just, “Oh you have beautiful eyes - I want to fuck you!”.

ZAN
Precisely.

ADAM
You know, which is what it probably sounds like. It is like, “No, I’m sitting back. I love women. Look at you in that dress - I am gazing at you and I am appreciating the Goddess.” It’s funny you mentioned it because I have another training in this Series with a woman who is going to talk about what it feels like to be a Goddess; to feel that feminine, the divine feminine, within her and to have that appreciated. So you

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have actually just touched on it. I think it is an essential principle. It keeps you out of, you know, snortling into micro-focus on her body.

ZAN
Exactly! It is like… compliments… like here is what we do: we compliment a woman and we think, “I hope she likes my compliment.” - I compliment her on her eyes, for instance, and I offer to buy her a drink - “I hope she will recognize my compliment and like me more than all the other men around”. In other words, we are hoping… we compliment a woman not because we are speaking any kind of a truth there - but because it is for our own reasons. In other words, we hope she likes us. So I will compliment her, and hope she will respond to that well; and she gives me her number or goes on a date with me, or whatever. So we compliment a woman… our compliments about or to women have nothing to do with her. They are all about US! And there is the problem. It is the intention behind it. As opposed to a man who says “You know what? I love life. I love women who are, you know, I will speak up to the world - look at you and look at your friend - you guys look fantastic!” - in other words, looking for nothing in return! The problem with compliments is that you are looking for validation and “Please like me.” And there are men on this earth who can walk up to a woman and say, “You know what? I was over there with my friend, and I had to come over here and say hi to you because look at you in this yellow dress - you look fantastic, you look absolutely stunning!” And he is saying it for his own reasons - not because he is looking for any kind of response from her at all.

ADAM
Does this tie into… one of the favorite statements that has ever come out of your mouth that I have heard is you have said you view all women as a gift from other men to you!

ZAN
Yes.

ADAM
And it is such a FANTASTIC mind shift! And I want you to explain that. Because it is not a piggish, kind of like, “I don’t care if you’re married. I don’t care if you have a girlfriend. I am going to try to take your woman!” It is not that at all! It is tied into what you are saying about the appreciation of women and your detachment from needing to have a particular woman in front of you.

ZAN
Well, you know, it is tied in with it because when I… I am always… I adore women - and I let the world know it. I let everybody know it. It is the first thing out of my mouth, when a woman says, “Why did you move to Las Vegas?” and I

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am like, “Oh you know why? Because love women! What’s your name?” Exactly! That is the first thing I am saying! And if guys want to have something practical, and they want to have a great week, then for the next week, every question that a woman asks you, the first thing out of your mouth should be “Because I love women!” If she says, you know, “Why do you like eating at this restaurant?” you say, “Why? Because I love women. What’s your name?” Just to have fun and experiment with that! And you will see women come alive, in the context of that. When a man can say that with a sparkle in his eye and say, “You know why?" Because I love women! And I am NOT ashamed of it, and I will NOT apologize for it. It is who I am.” Okay? And you will see women transform in front of you, into feminine. You will actually see it…

ADAM
It allows them.

ZAN
It allows them to relax into that role again. Because the women have taken on largely the role that the men are supposed to do - which is the leaders, and leading interaction etc, and so they have to pick masculine side of things because men are not doing it!

ADAM
Have you gotten some good snarky comebacks when you say that to women? Where they don’t buy it right out and they challenge you a little?

ZAN
No. You get all kinds of responses. But boy, I tell you, here is the thing - and sounds counterintuitive - but women understand when they are in the presence of a man who is congruent with saying, “You know, I love women - and who are you? And look at your friend - you guys look fantastic!” they understand the difference. If there is any incongruence in there; if there is any hesitation in that, or if there is any non-belief of that, they will pick up on it and they will excoriate you.

ADAM
Which is okay! I want to say that is okay! Go out there and practice it. You are going to stumble…

ZAN
Of course. That is what I am saying: guys should go out and practice. If guys really want to have a great fun week, every question women ask you this week, say, “Because I love women”, “Because I love women”, “Because I love women”. And you will be surprised at the way women respond to that.

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ADAM
That’s really wonderful. That is a great reframe. And it is also the right of a man, to say he loves women! He doesn’t have to be nervous about it, or coy about it. Without getting into detail, I was somewhere recently and there was a young guy flitting around in a furry coat, trying to pick up women. And his whole attitude was so needy you could feel it. And so it was the exact opposite; someone running around trying to gain attention - rather than just standing back, a little bit older - and just loving women! Smiling at them, adoring them!

ZAN
I was just going to say, you know, we have the right, as you said - in fact we have the obligation - to present ourselves fully to the world with, you know, if we see a woman over there in a yellow dress that we find attractive; there is something about that woman that draws our heart - and we do NOT present ourselves to her and say, “You know what? I have to say this. I was there with my friends - I am a little nervous but here I am - and I like your dress and you look fantastic!” When we don’t do that, we let women down. And we let down, you know, our generation of men. We let down our own masculinity when we don’t do that. We fail.

ADAM
Yes. There is a wonderful thing about adoring women - I think you mentioned that word. And I want to add one thing about compliments, by the way - see what you think. You know, I am a writer, by trade. So I am always… language for me is always this multidimensional thing happening beneath it. So what I do - and I do it honestly and straightforwardly, and I do it naturally - when I compliment someone on something about how they look, I connect it to an aspect of their personality: “I love you eyes. They are really warm; they show how warm you are.” you know? Or “I love your…” (I am crazy about arms - go figure! - I love arms and shoulders) so I say, “I love your arms and shoulders. You are so graceful in how you move!” So it is not just about the physicality; it is about how she moves. And now I am going to add “I love women” at the end. Thank you!

ZAN
I mean, it changes everything. I mean, we all know, we have all seen an older guy that gets introduced to a tableful of women at a restaurant, and he is kissing the hands and like, “Je t’adore” and all this kind of stuff, and “Enchanté” - and we all see this. And the women completely love it!

ADAM
They do, it’s true!

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ZAN
And if the man is saying, “Look at you! And look at you! And Wow - how about you! Hello! Hello! Hello!” And women understand that language. We think we… our problem is we are trying to be cool, and aloof, and indifferent…

ADAM
Right.

ZAN
There is no celebration in that.

ADAM
And we are cut off from our “happy hearts” when we do that.

ZAN
Exactly!

ADAM
You cut off from celebration. I mean, look, women live in an ocean of color and music and movement and… you know, I am looking out my window right now, up here in Topanga - and all my tress are in flower, so I am looking at this beautiful… there are oranges, and tangerines, and everything is pink, and purple, and orange, you know - just a beautiful world! And women live in that! You know? And men are always holding back, into their worlds of monochrome, right? “Don’t smile too much / don’t laugh too much / don’t move too much…”

ZAN
Exactly! Well we don’t want to appear needy. And that is the reason that we hold ourselves back, that we reserve ourselves. And that is why we don’t compliment because we don’t want to appear like we are needy. But the intention is everything behind it. I compliment women all the time. But I do it for MY reasons. I do it because I love women and I will NOT be afraid to say it - not because I want ANYTHING from her at all! I don’t care if she likes me; I don’t care if she responds to me. I will walk up to her and say, “You know what? You look fantastic! Look at you and your friend - you guys look absolutely amazing - and I love it! I like that because I’m a man.” And that is what I’m saying. I don’t’ NEED the response! I have already done my job!

ADAM
Yes! When I talk about archetypes, the King is the bestower of value, right? Is the bestower of bounty, the bestower of boon: “I value you. I celebrate you. You’re beautiful. I love women!” That is the Kingly position.

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Something I have always thought was crazy, in the Attraction community - such that it is - is this need to collect phone numbers; to prove that you can go out and collect phone number! Now, I imagine that might be important early on; but there is a mania of measuring what you can get - which utterly undoes the intention that you are talking about.

ZAN
Exactly. Like we are always looking, you know, we measure our success by her response. In other words, “I approached that woman. I got success because she smiled / I got success because she gave me her phone number or…” etc. In other words, we are measuring success with a quantitative thing; instead of saying our only measurement of success should be pulled back closer to us. In other words, “Did I go over there and say to that woman and her friend, ‘You look fantastic and I like it!’?” If you did; if you showed up and you were authentic (and you can be nervous; it doesn’t matter) but you showed up and you DID it - THEN you succeeded! It does not matter her response. We should never measure our success by how the woman responds to us. It should only be on by how do we show up in the world, as men.

ADAM
You know, it’s hilarious - it is the same advice you give your kids! You know, “Go out there and do your best!” you know? It’s no different, right, for a kid? “Just go out and do your best!”

ZAN
Yes. Woody Allen said that “Ninety percent of success is just showing up!”

ADAM
Exactly.

ZAN
And if the Seduction community has done anything for men, it has got them out of their basement suites, talking to women - in other words, just showing up! And they think, you know, they will learn some routines and they will learn some stories, etc; they will memorize a bunch of stuff, and some techniques and something like that. And then they will go and start talking to women in a lounge. And they will run into a woman who will say, “You know, I understand what this guy is doing. I understand that he is like, he memorized something. But he is kind of cute, and he smells nice - and I’m really horny right now! I’ll go home with him!” The next day, the guy is writing a field report - “Wow! This technique worked!” But what really happened was he just showed up in the land of women and he said hello! No matter what came out of his mouth; no matter what technique he said, he was actually interacting with women - which is just showing up in the world.

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ADAM
It’s really funny; I was talking to a woman the other night, a really good friend, and she was telling me about a time when she and her friend were just both feeling really horny; and they didn’t have a boyfriend, so they said, “Let’s go out and we’ll pick up the first guy, and we’ll bring him back and we’ll double-team him - and we’ll give him the night of his life!” Well, lucky guy, right? And so they went out, found this guy - and he was probably online the next day going, “I am the MAN! I just pulled so well!” - had nothing to do with him! He was there! And he was clean, too.

ZAN
There is a lot of times - and if guys don’t believe this they can ask their women friends - there is a lot of times that a woman will give a phone number to a man because she doesn’t want to be another one of those girls that rejects men. But they have no intention ever of following it up. But they have good hearts and so they say, “Well, I feel bad for this guy so I’ll give him my phone number.” It happens a LOT!

ADAM
Which only makes it worse. Let me do another mind shift. I am loving this! I mean, you and I are so aligned in our world view! There is another great statement you had - and God, I just want to dig into this one as deeply as we can! you have this great statement; you ask guys, “Have you ever been a woman’s fantasy? And if not, why not? And what can you do to actually become a woman’s fantasy?” Why don’t you say something about that - and then let’s dig into what that means.

ZAN
Well, you know, I think the problem is the quality of our life is determined by the quality of the questions we ask. And if we are asking ourselves and, you know, any kind of dating teacher, whatever, we are asking a question like, “How do I get a girl’s phone number?” or “How do I get her to respond to my texts?” or “What should I say to her?” or “Where can I take her on a date?” In my mind those are low-level questions. And by that I mean they are not touching the real questions that we COULD be asking, which are fundamentally, “Who am I? And what do I want?” Number two, “Why am I not a woman’s fantasy?” She is fantasizing about somebody - why is it not me?” That is a great question to ask! And so I think it is... to put those kinds of questions, those quality questions - instead of saying, “How do I get a girl’s phone number?” instead we say, “How do I become the most dynamic, interesting man that a woman has ever met?” That is a great question to ask! That is a great way to construct your life, because the quality of the questions determines the quality of your life. And so it is a bigger, more conceptual, question to say, “Why am I not a woman’s fantasy? She

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is going to go home tonight; the woman I just talked to in the bar is going to go home tonight and fantasize about a guy, in her bed or in her shower or in her bathtub or whatever. Why is it not me?” You see?

ADAM
Well, let’s do that! How does one become a woman’s fantasy?

ZAN
Well, there is all the… you know, this goes back to the whole concept of shifting around what we want in our life. Women do not fantasize about guys who are always available and giving them all the attention. We know this. They fantasize about the guy who as a mission and a purpose in life. In other words, a guy who is saying, “You know what? you and your friend look fantastic! I love it and I am going in this direction. And if you want, I would love it if you came! And if you don’t, I’m going anyway!” This is what women are craving. That is why romance novels are the number one genre of books; is because they are craving that essence of romance that we talked about.

ADAM
So having a purpose is clearly a really strong attractor for women; not putting them first. It is a mistake, by the way…

ZAN
Yes. Like I said earlier, we should stop doing what we don’t love. In other words (this has nothing to do with women but it has EVERYTHING to do with women!) we should stop doing what we don’t love and we should head toward what we want our life to look like. The moment we do that, the moment we do that; the moment we say, “You know what? I am going to design my life, as opposed to just having things happen to me!” we are automatically attractive to women. Now we step into the realm of women saying, “I met a guy last night. There is something about him.” In other words, we start to become a woman’s fantasy because we are living lives of measure; we are living purposeful lives. We are not reacting; we are saying, “This is who I am and I am going to go in this direction.” And there is no short-circuiting it. You know, I can teach a weekend seminar on body language, and I can say, “Okay guys, put your shoulders back here; stick your chest out; cock your head just like this and then walk…” And there are teachings like that. But NONE of it - that is all surface - none of it can come from anything but a center of gravity. If you say, “You know what? I’m going to go take a risk. I am going to go live my life. I am going to go pursue what I want my life to look like - no matter what the cost!” then your body language will follow. And this is what we don’t understand; we are looking for the quick-fix as men - as opposed to doing the work that we have to do, which is to stop what we don’t love and to head toward what we do love.

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ADAM
The word “purpose” has become very powerful in men’s circles for the last twenty years. And one of the best explicators of that is David Deida in his book, “The Way of the Superior Man.” And I recommend everybody read it and absorb what they want from it. One word he doesn’t use, though, is “inspiration.” I always talk about living an “inspired life” - not just having a purpose - but being deeply inspired by what you are doing is the HUGEST turn-on. You know, “Be the ride women want to get on.” you know? And the low level of that is “Have money, have a house, and have a great car” - women want to be on that ride because it’s fun! But being the emotional, spiritual, purposeful ride they want to be on is much more powerful. What do you have to say about inspiration? You have worked with a lot of men who DON’T feel inspired. What do you say about really getting in touch with your inspiration, so that you CAN be more of a fantasy?

ZAN
Well I think, as I said, I have my own ideas, obviously…

ADAM
Why we’re here!

ZAN
I think inspiration for men comes from women. And I think that if there is going to be a men’s movement on this earth - because the men are tired of the way it is, and the women and tired of the way it is; and we are not to blame; we both put us in this mess - I think if there is going to be any shift in men’s hearts, in what we would call a “men’s movement”, it is going to be started by women. Because women are the ones that rebirth us. And a man cannot go out there and be his “Warrior self” if he doesn’t have the rebirth, and the nurturing, and the creative force of true femininity that he has surrounding him. And so I - obviously this is a big conceptual subject - but I really believe that a man gets his inspiration from women who are incredibly feminine and powerful in their own right.

ADAM
Yes. Let me ask you a question. I have been serving men over thirty-five about what their fears are, what their concerns are, about getting a little bit older. And some are really afraid of being own. And some don’t really have women like that in their lives. What advice would you give, to get some of that inspiration? I love that “rebirthing energy” of women in their lives? Either they are too busy; they don’t have time to go out and meet women / they don’t feel comfortable around women. So let’s say they can’t get a girlfriend right away - maybe they are recovering from divorce, or… What would you say about… how would you

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immerse yourself in the world a little to get some of that rebirthing energy? And how would you call it?

ZAN
Well, you know, first of all we have to… the fundamental thing is to ask yourself “What do I want?” And then we have to start making choices toward what we want and to know that we have chosen. The problem is we are waiting for women to be nice, and cuddly, and kind - and date us. We are waiting for women to show up and be this wonderful, sweet thing to US. But we can’t! We have to go out there and create our own space, our own life - and without waiting for women to show up first. And of course we are going to run into women who are manipulative or who are bitchy. We are going to run into that. But we have to keep going on that path. So I think it goes back to - fundamentally again - if a man is not in the space where he is surrounded by the kind of energy he would love to have in his life, and he truly wants it - that kind of feminine energy that we talked about - he needs to shift his life. Yes, it is scary. And yes, it is fundamental. And yes, it is necessary. Because if we keep doing what we have always done, we will keep getting what we have always got! I am forty-six years’ old. And if I had kept going in the corporate world, sitting there for the paycheck in the boardroom - I have a house, and a car and a boat, and all of those things; but do I have passion? Do I have the notion that I have what it takes? Or am I just sitting there going through the motions? And so we have got to cut that from our life. And I don’t mean your job, necessarily; but I do mean that spirit of waiting for something to happen. There are guys who tell me all the time, you know, “Well I live in ‘Pump Handle’, Iowa and there are no women there!” Well go where the women are! Reconstruct your life, you know?

ADAM
Right! It reminds me of that old Sam Kinison routine - I don’t know if you remember - where he was watching about Ethiopia; and he was like, “Go where the fucking food is!”

ZAN
Exactly! Exactly!

ADAM
So, you know, “Go where the women are!” And where are the women? What are some of your ideas? I have some ideas - what are some of your ideas?

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ZAN
Well, yes, I know lots of places on earth where there are lots of women! But it is like…

ADAM
I will give a quick example, by the way: I was on - I don’t know what it was any more… Saint John’s Island - one of those islands… they blur after a while - I was on one of these islands and I ran into a friend of mine from Elementary school who was like a little science nerd guy. And he had been a dentist; had been miserable - you know, because he was scientific, and he married some horrible woman; they were married; he divorced her, sold everything, moved to this island - and he was renting out… yes, house on the beach and he rented out one of those parachutes behind the boat - what do you call that? - parasailing. Every night there was a party in his house! The most beautiful young women on the island! So, it’s possible” you know! You can reshape your life! But for those of you who aren’t going to do that - I didn’t mean to interrupt - but I am sure there are places locally, or nearby, where men can find women. What do you think?

ZAN
Well, you know, a lot of guys say the whole dating scene is constructed to picking up girls in nightclubs. Most guys - certainly my age - don’t want to go into nightclubs! Of course not; you can’t talk, and it’s loud, etc. It is not my scene. I like to go where there is a great energy. So like in a practical sense, if I go out anywhere, I go to a lounge; I go to somewhere a bit quieter, like that. In every town (I shouldn’t say this because maybe in small towns - and I grew up in a small town!) it is a matter of… the great thing, as a friend of mine said (he is a teacher and he was asked by a bunch of students, “Listen, you know, we don’t want to go to nightclubs.” And then they were saying, “But that is the only place that women are”) and he was saying, “Well then, go to nightclubs.” There are all kinds of ways. And there are all kinds of doctrine out there, and all kinds of instruction on where to go to find women. And so I didn’t need to repeat it here. But I am just saying that, in the aspect of what you are doing in your life, if it is not bringing you the satisfaction you want, and the fulfillment that you want, and the type of energy that you want in your life, you must change it. If a guy is in a basement programming Web servers all day long (which I did!) and there are no women around; and he wants more women in his life, he needs to shift it. He needs to look at his priorities and say, “Do I want to do this? Do I want to have this kind of a life? Or do I want to have a more open life?” And head towards where that energy is.

ADAM
Yes. Very good. I agree a hundred percent. Let’s get back to what it is to be a fantasy. So, when I hear “Be a fantasy for women”, I think the first element is that

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you actually adore women. You know, you could be the older Italian gentleman kissing hands around the table - that is kind of a fantasy! Just being adored is a fantasy!

ZAN
Correct.

ADAM
But I am guessing that when men hear that, they are thinking, “Well, yes, if I looked like Fabio I could be on the cover of the romance novel - but I don’t look like Fabio!” (Probably Fabio is a little heavy; I’ve seen him around town here!) “But I don’t look like Fabio - you know, I’m a little pot-bellied, and I’m balding; you know, I’m a little out of shape.” What do you tell THAT guy? Besides the really wonderful foundation of “Adore women!”

ZAN
Don’t dire yourself down.

ADAM
There you go!

ZAN
Like when I picture the guy who is like kissing the hands at the table and all the women are adoring him, I am picturing the older, balding guy who is like… but he has an essence of charm about him. And the reason he has charm is because he blurts and he speaks what is on his mind, and he presents himself fully. There is none of this, you know, fake masculinity that we have, that we call “aloofness” or “coolness” where we say, “Hey, how’re you doing? Nice to meet you” and we are being all stiff and not “in our body”. A man like that is saying, “You know what? Look at this table before me, with these beautiful women sitting around it - that’s all for me! Fantastic!” And women recognize that. they pick up on it - and they respond in kind!

ADAM
Beautifully said. Beautifully said. Let me ask you about another statement you have that I have read in some of your work. And that is that you talk about that women “miss seduction”; they “miss the romance.” I know a lot of - and we both know; everybody knows - a lot of this has gotten a bad name. But there is a dark side and a light side of everything. So let’s just stay away from the dark - I mean, really, any principle you want to throw out, there is a dark side and a light side. Let’s talk about the light side of seduction - it sounds like a mad magazine insert but it’s not! So let’s talk about the light side; the kind of seduction that women want to feel.

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ZAN
I have been trying to redeem that word for a long time - because it does have a connotation. I was on a radio interview with a woman who is a quite well-known woman; and she had told me before - she had asked me before we aired, she said, “You know, when I hear the word ‘seduction’ and when most of my listeners hear the word ‘seduction’, they are going to think, okay, this guy is going to lead me down the garden path; lead me astray and take advantage of me - seduction. He is going to seduce me into something that i don’t want to do.” But what we are missing; what she missed on her show -and what I said to her was this woman had studied dance for many, many years - like Tango! And I said to her, “Is the Tango not a seduction? Is it not seductive - in a good way? Is the Rumba not seductive?” This is what we are talking about. This is what we are missing. When I talk about seduction, I say this: I say, “Men no longer seduce their wives. They just exist.” And so when I am talking about it, I am talking about - you know, in the dictionary there are two definitions for the word “Seduction” - it is on the back of my business card. The first one is “Something that leads astray.” And the second one is “Something that attracts and charms.” And we are missing that element of passion, of romance, of seduction. We just don’t have the… we don’t own our masculinity any more; and we are apologetic and we are missing that idea of, like, seducing our wives! So I think it is a great word. I think it is a great term. I have been laboring for years to try and, you know, defend that word. And I use it proudly. I think it’s fantastic.

ADAM
So what are some of the positive seduction mindsets / moves / things men can do? In other words, I feel weird kissing a woman’s hand; it is not part of my culture, you know? I have seen women do it. I have seen them kissing women o both cheeks. I have started doing that a little bit - there is a nice European charm there. What other physical or verbal cues are there that you are screening the woman in front of you as a woman?

ZAN
Well, I think, you know, what we are certainly doing - certainly in North America and in Europe - is we are completely hiding our masculine energy. We draw it back to our body and we hide it. We have done it all our lives as men. And what we don’t understand… in other words, we don’t want women to be offended and so we never light ourselves up with the joy of us being masculine. Our sexual energy. We hide. We have been hiding all our life. And when women say to me, all over the world - which they do - “Where are the real men?” this is what they are saying. “Where are the men who are not asexual; who are not controlling and creeps and macho and all this kind of stuff - but that there is a center of gravity in them that says, ‘I’m a man, you’re a woman - and there is something across that divide that I absolutely love!”

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So I think the essence, the most practical thing that guys can do, is stop hiding this sexual identity. Our sexual masculine identity is a force of nature! And it is a VERY good force - and it is missing from the world! So I think that is a fundamental.

ADAM
Let me ask you a question - I agree! - let me ask you a question related to the word “celebration.” I am a very upbeat guy; I am a very fun guy; I work in comedy sometimes - I am used to people who express themselves creatively. I have been in creative communities all my adulthood. So I get what it means to be “outwardly celebratory”. But a lot of men are really not practiced in that. The image of masculinity is the much more reserved, cowboy, sober business guy, you know? How do you get celebratory (a great word, by the way!) without seeming fake?

ZAN
Well, you know, I am very visual - and so if you picture a man having a center of gravity in the center of his body, and then you imagine that all of the things that we are talking about here - our humor, our charm, our eye contact; being interesting, story-telling; all of these things - start from the center of gravity in the man, physically in his body, in the center and it is an upward-flowing energy. That is how I see it. In other words, our energy is up in the air and presented to the crowd that way. The problem is - I mean, that is a great way to be! - the problem is we are too topheavy. From the same center of gravity, the same center of a man’s center, is a lower-flowing energy that the essence of passion, romance, purpose; a visceral energy that flows out into the world as well. And we are hiding that lower energy. We are only presenting ourselves as a charming, nice, cool, funny guy - that everyone else wants to invite to their party but nobody ever wants to view as a fantasy! In other words, “This is the guy who is just a friend - but he’s a great guy; bring him along!” Our problem is, because ewe have been taught and conditioned that our sexual energy is a bad thing, we hide it and we concentrate all of our learning and stuff on improving the upward-moving energy, which is eye contact, learning to tell stories - all these things, to be impressive, to be interesting on a higher level. And w never put into the world that we are men, we like it - and we will not apologize for it. So I think that we are incomplete.

ADAM
Very nice. Going back to Tango as a great example of lower-body masculinity. It is funny you mentioned Tango: a very beautiful friend of mine was just staying with a friend of hers, and they were doing the whole Argentina tour. And they went to a Tango night. And her friend is kind of mouthy and kind of “office” you know, she owns a company and, you know, she has got some edge, right?

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And the guy, he just took her around the waist, put his leg against hers and said, “You are not to make a single move until I move you!” And she METLED! She said it was like the hottest moment of her life - because he had the authority of that, of his body. But let’s talk about the lower body. You know, for those of you who are from California - when I hear you talking, I hear the word “chakras” - because I hear that word all the time! But in essence, it really is the lower-body chakras; and the lower-body chakras ARE power and sexuality and generation. So how do you awaken… how do you advise men to awaken that lower-body energy?

ZAN
Well I think awareness sis everything. Surely we must know… surely we must check in with ourselves when we are interacting with a woman: how am I presenting myself? Am I being cautious? Am I being careful that I don’t offend? Am I asking as ‘just a friend’? Am I asking, you know, polite and kind and open your door for you - but there is no sense in there EVER that I am a man?” In other words, we come across as asexual. Awareness is everything. In fact I think awareness is curative. The real solution is just becoming aware of how we are coming across. And if we check in with ourselves hand say, you know, “Okay, how did I show up? Did I hide my sexual energy? Did I hide my masculine edge, my mystique? Did I hide that - and just come cross as a nice guy who is shaking hands and smiling and being charming?” If we did, then we need to become aware of that and slowly we come to the notion that that is a good thing. It is our BIRTHRIGHT. Our sexual energy is our birthright and it is needed in this world and we are missing it all over the place.

ADAM
Well let me, again, get practical - for a guy who might not know what you are talking about. What physically might it look like for a man to be more in his lower-body - in the power of chakras, in the power of energy - than up in his head? What might that look like?

ZAN
Well, that might look like the idea of like holding eye contact without, you know, the staring nonsense of those guys trying to be cool and macho! Or, you know, to speak things; to blurt; to say things… how many times have we, for instance, thought, in a room, “Well I was about to say something but I didn’t think they would find it interesting or funny” - and so we cut ourselves off? How many times? As men, never hold back! Always feel free to blurt and to speak yourself into the world and to - in a very practical way - stop holding yourself back, stop doubting yourself and stop apologizing!

ADAM
Stop apologizing!

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ZAN
Yes. You know, a man will be talking to a woman in the coffee shop, in a coffee line, waiting for their coffee, and he will say, “Well, it’s nice talking to you would you like to maybe get together sometime?” and she says, “You know, you are so sweet, thank you - but I have a boyfriend.” And the first thing that we, as modern men, say is “Oh I’m sorry - I didn’t mean anything by it; it didn’t realize you had a boyfriend.” In other words we apologize because we are men, and she is a woman and we asked her out! We apologize that SHE has a boyfriend that we knew nothing about! It is shocking! It is like we don’t own what we are doing. The common phrase is… women say to me all the time, “I thought it was a date but I am not sure.” Because as men, we will say, “Would you like to hang out sometime?” What a dead phrase!

ADAM
Ha ha! That’s one of my pet peeves too! It is a very twenty-something thing. Like, what does that mean? But I mean, that is a way of being afraid of conveying, “I would love to make love to you.”

ZAN
Well, there you go! And so that is the response that they get: women say, “Okay, you told me that. You don’t want to convey that - so I am not going to give that back to you in kind. I am not going to give that response back to you. So yes, you are a nice guy; and yes, you can come shopping with me; and yes, I will invite you to my party as one of my friends. Of course!” You know what I say all the time in my seminars? What kind of women put men in the “friend zone”? And you get various answers. But the truth is, no women ever do! We do it ourselves! We put ourselves in the “friend zone” - and only us.

ADAM
Yes. To express interest in sexuality and to express interest in romance opens the conversation in that direction: “I’m lucky. You’re lucky - I think” I can always say, when a woman says to me, “So what do you do?” and I say, “Well, I write about sex, love and intimacy.” Suddenly they are interested! You know, I have led the direction that way. But I want to ask you something about that…

ZAN
What can a guy practically do?

ADAM
Yes, well that is actually one of the things! I mean, I tell men to actively get interested in how women work; get interested in intimacy, get interested in male/female communication - women are endlessly fascinated by that subject. But it also makes you an expert in that subject. And it gives you some authority.

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ZAN
Yes. In a practical way, I don’t care if you are a plumber - if a woman says to you, “What do you do?” what she is really saying is “What defines you?” And the answer - if you are plumber, whatever - say, “Well, my job is a plumber - but what I really am is I am a student of attraction; I am a student of life. And I want to know more, and more, and more.” That is a great thing to say! And it’s true!

ADAM
Beautiful answer. And hopefully that is true! You know, whatever you do! You know, again, I consider myself very lucky; I also consider myself very directed, in that I have always been a “Student of life!” I have never used the expression before - but now that you said it, I have always been interested; what can we do with this life? What fun can we create? How much joy can we create? How much good can we create? How much love can we create? And you know, I have always chosen my work around those areas. So that is a great response for anybody. Thank you.

ZAN
Of course. “I’m a student of life - tell me about you.” Incredible!

ADAM
I love it! With a spirit of adventure! I want to get back to that as we close out: the idea of really choosing to be a woman’s fantasy. So part of being a woman’s fantasy, I believe, is a man who is very in touch with his senses, with his sensuality - that he tastes, and touches, and feels and smells, and hears the world in a really beautiful and subtle way; he is awake and alive to the world. Because if he does that it is an indication to a woman and it is great practice to a woman that he will bring all of those qualities to her, as an incarnation of the best beauty of the world. And he will be a more sensitive lover; he will be much more sensitive to what is happening between the two of them.

ZAN
Yes.

ADAM
So my question to you is, you have established a great foundation of adoration of women. How does that transfer to adoration of the world, as a cultivator of the Lover archetype? You know, what is your relationship with fabric, or food, or sound, or music…?

ZAN
Well, like I said, if you are… curiosity is everything, in my mind. I say a lot of absolutes - but there is another one! Curiosity is everything. It is like… my notion is this: intelligence is curiosity and only curiosity. In other words, if you are

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curious about something, you are good at it; you are intelligent in it. So if you are curious about computers and have a fundamental desire to understand it, you are automatically good at it. And it is the same with life. If you are curious about life, you are good at it. And if you re NOT curious about it, then start to develop that and say, “What AM I curious about? What am I curious about in this world?” And I think that develops in you’re the sense of a desire to be a student of life; a desire to be a student of this world; a desire to be a student of women - which is a great thing! And it creates in you this sense of adventure, because you are magnificently wanting to know about life and about things - because that is who you are. So it is something that we can develop. Curiosity is something that we need to concentrate on all the time, and develop in us.

ADAM
Beautiful. Okay. Are there any sensual directions that you can give to men that you have found have been particularly opening for women? Like a bad example or maybe just a good example! - I always recommend that men wear cashmere! Especially on a first date! Very simple thing to do. A nice cashmere sweater; you know, the thin kind of cashmere, or the thicker one - depending on where you live. I guarantee the woman’s hands will be one you! They will be on you!

ZAN
I like it!

ADAM
Yeah it’s easy! And it’s foolproof, I have to add! It’s foolproof. Women will touch cashmere. So I have become very sensitive. I dated for a while, for about a year-and-a-half, a very beautiful “Fashionista”, you know? She was a clothes buyer for a high-level clothing store - and she just knew clothes! And she introduced me to textures and colors and brands - things I had never seen before. And I am just a guy from New York, you know; I am not a high fashion guy. But I learned a lot about how women respond to texture, and to shoes! You know, like I bought some beautiful sort of very creamy Italian handmade shoes; I have one pair that I bought as a reward for myself when I sold a movie. And I always get comments on THAT pair of shoes! So I am awakened to clothing as a doorway to sensuality.

ZAN
Yes.

ADAM
I wonder if you have any comments on what sort of clothing? And then we’ll get to food!

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ZAN
Well I think, you know, if you want to concentrate on anything, and you don’t have a clue, as a man, concentrate on your extremities. In other words, what women notice the first about men is his extremities: the top of his head; you know, the way he has his hair, or his lack of hair, what he has done there; his shoes; and his fingernails - for sure.

ADAM
Yes!

ZAN
Because in general those are the things that women notice about a man. If his fingernails are clean it tells a lot about a man. Or, you know, well-groomed; or his shoes. So, in a practical sense, take care of your extremities. And, yes!

ADAM
Why the extremities? Why do you suppose?

ZAN
I don’t know! It’s what women have told me. I am just repeating it!

ADAM
Okay! “Yours is not to reason why!” So that is clothing extremities. That’s interesting. Women shoes, they love hats; love hairdos, facial hair; weirdness; fingernails - some men wear rings I know, and that seems to get attention. What about food? Do you have anything to say about - as a lover of life - what is your relationship with food or wine?

ZAN
Well, food for me - I am not much of a connoisseur when it comes to food - I am a sustenance guy because it seems like I am always excited about something and I am off to the next thing. So I am not a “foodie” - not at all. And I know a lot of people are, and they scratch their head and look at me funny. But this is the way I am!

ADAM
Interesting. That’s fair enough! Okay, excellent! Curious… what else do you want to add? We have covered so much. I think the really key principle I want people to walk away with from this training is that “Adoration of women” in the plural: “I love women! I don’t love women because they are going to blow me tonight. I don’t love women because of what I might get from them right now, or ever. I just love women!” is a beautiful, regal stance. And that to me is really the key thing.

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So is there anything else you want to get across before we cut off?

ZAN
Well I think that is a key thing. It is like saying to the world that “I believe in the gentleness and kindness and goodness of the female spirit - even if they don’t.” It’s nice. And it’s true. And we are missing that on the earth. And I celebrate it; and I coax it out of every woman I ever meet. I say, “You know what? I understand that you have been abused and you have been hurt, and you mistrust men, and you have been betrayed in your relationships. But not here with you and me.” And I will speak to a woman and tell her, “In the space of you and me, let’s dispense with all of that baggage and let’s do something different.” I actively, vociferously, call her forth to a higher standard. Because I am calling myself forth to a higher standard. I will say to a woman, “I will see you as maximally beautiful whenever I see you, because it is how I CHOOSE to see you - so show up that way!” And women will respond. They say, “Okay, for this guy I will. For the rest, you are going to have to get through my defenses and all that stuff but for this guy, I understand that. And he called me forth as a leader - and I will do it.”

ADAM
That is a beautiful note to end on. Zan, as always, you inspire me! And I live for inspiration! Everyone can find your stuff on our http://ACI.com/Store/Zan or they can go to the “Way of Attraction.”

ZAN
Yes, my brand is “Way of Attraction” and my Program is “Ars Amorata.” My website is just my name: http://ZanPerrion.com.

ADAM
That’s easier. Alright, we will put that up on our page and we will be sure to send people there. I know you lead Workshops; you probably have lots of audios - and I know you are always writing…

ZAN
Yes.

ADAM
So thank you for your good work! And I really feel that you are a leader of men.

ZAN
I appreciate that.

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ADAM
Yes. I really appreciate it. Thank you. It is http://ZanPerrion.com. Alright, Zan, thank you so much! And we will continue this conversation I’m sure! It was great to talk to you and I will see you soon.

ZAN
Always. Okay.

ADAM
Okay. Bye.

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