COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS ACTION NETWORK, INC., ET AL. v. GAUBATZ, ET AL.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD

January 9, 2013

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NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 1 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pages: 1 - 162 Lee Bursten, RMR, CRR Deposition of NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD Washington, DC Wednesday, January 9, 2013 10:04 a.m. v. PAUL DAVID GAUBATZ, et al., Defendants. UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -x COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS ACTION NETWORK, INC., et al., Plaintiffs, : : : : : : : Judge Colleen Kollar-Kotelly Civil Action No. 09-cv-2030 (CKK-JMF)

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Reported By:

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 2 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Pursuant to notice, before Lee Bursten, Registered Merit Reporter, Certified Realtime Reporter, and Notary Public in and for the District of Columbia, who officiated in administering the oath to the witness. CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY 1901 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 201 Washington, DC 20006 (202) 379-4960 Deposition of NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD, held at the offices of:

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 3 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ON BEHALF OF THE CSP DEFENDANTS: DAVID YERUSHALMI, ESQUIRE CENTER FOR SECURITY POLICY 1901 Pennsylvania Avenue, NW Suite 201 Washington, DC 20006 (202) 379-4960 ON BEHALF OF DAVID YERUSHALMI, SOCIETY OF AMERICANS FOR NATIONAL EXISTENCE, AND THE CSP DEFENDANTS: ROBERT J. MUISE, ESQUIRE AMERICAN FREEDOM LAW CENTER P.O. Box 131098 Ann Arbor, Michigan 48113 (734) 635-3756 (Present via telephone) A P P E A R A N C E S ON BEHALF OF PLAINTIFFS AND THE WITNESS: GADEIR ABBAS, ESQUIRE NADHIRA AL-KHALILI, ESQUIRE COUNCIL ON AMERICAN-ISLAMIC RELATIONS 453 New Jersey Avenue, SE Washington, DC 20003 (202) 742-6033

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 4 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ALSO PRESENT: CHRIS ALLEN GAUBATZ MARTIN GARBUS, ESQUIRE LAW OFFICE OF MARTIN GARBUS 3 Park Avenue 16th Floor New York, New York 10016 (212) 561-3625 A P P E A R A N C E S C O N T I N U E D

ON BEHALF OF THE GAUBATZ DEFENDANTS: DANIEL HOROWITZ, ESQUIRE LAW OFFICE OF DANIEL HOROWITZ P.O. Box 1547 Lafayette, California 94549 (925) 283-1863

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 5 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Exhibit 11 E X H I B I T S (Retained by counsel.) CSP DEPOSITION EXHIBITS Exhibit 10 Excerpt from Boim versus Quranic Literacy Institute deposition transcript Screenshot of CAIR website 128 PAGE 126 C O N T E N T S EXAMINATION OF NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD By Mr. Yerushalmi By Mr. Horowitz PAGE 39 116

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 6 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 P R O C E E D I N G S MR. YERUSHALMI: gentlemen and lady. We're on the record,

We had called for a meet and

confer at 9:45, 15 minutes prior to the deposition. Plaintiffs' counsel and the deponents were held up a bit and didn't arrive until 10, so we're now going to have the global meet and confer we agreed to have on whatever outstanding issues relating to discovery. So Mr. Abbas, we'll let you go first. Let's run the agenda so we know what we're going to be talking about, your and my side. do you have, Mr. Abbas? MR. ABBAS: would like to discuss. There are three issues that I The first is regarding the The So what issues

subpoenas to Mr. Paul Sperry and WorldNetDaily.

second issue is the addition of additional defendants and/or additional allegations of co-conspirators. And the third is regarding CSP's last production of document answers and the failure to identify which documents those answers refer to. MR. YERUSHALMI: Okay. And the CSP

defendants have the issue relating to the subject matter on the notice of depositions which the 30(b)(6) deponent was not authorized to answer, which are the subject matters 14 and 15. And I believe

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 7 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 anybody. MR. YERUSHALMI: Since those are the issues? MR. HOROWITZ: I have no issues with those are the only two issues that we have. Muise is on the phone. Robert

Robert, do you have any other

issues on the discovery side? MR. MUISE: No, I believe that was it. Dan, do you have any

MR. YERUSHALMI:

issues, why don't you begin with your number 1, Mr. Abbas. MR. ABBAS: The number 1 issue that I would

like to discuss is the deposition of Paul Sperry and WorldNetDaily. My understanding is that at this Mr. Garbus,

point right now, there is no dispute.

you have accepted service on behalf of WorldNetDaily and Paul Sperry. MR. GARBUS: MR. ABBAS: When did that happen? Last week. That's silly. There is a

MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS:

Let me clarify.

dispute as to whether or not service was accomplished, the e-mail chain that was disputed and we went back and forth on. Hold on. Last week, and

Mr. Garbus, you indicated you would accept service on

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 8 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here. behalf of WorldNetDaily and Paul Sperry via e-mail. MR. GARBUS: MR. ABBAS: Show me the e-mail. I don't have Internet access I believe

If I'm mistaken, I apologize.

that's the e-mail that got sent. MR. YERUSHALMI: it was obviously by mistake.

Do we have --

If he sent such an e-mail, The fact is we made it

clear, all of the defendants, including Mr. Garbus and Mr. Horowitz, made it absolutely clear, Mr. Horowitz drafted a letter, a formal written letter in which he stated very clearly that while Mr. Garbus and Mr. Horowitz represented WorldNetDaily and Mr. Sperry, that they were not authorized to accept service. And it is now essentially a week later. And we're in the same situation we were. This meet

and confer, to the extent that it's a meet and confer, can be a meet and confer on your request that you made to the Court by telephone and the Court said she would require -- the Judge said she would require a better record, a motion to compel, and/or a motion to extend discovery to take those depositions. But as I understand it, in conferring with Mr. Horowitz and Mr. Garbus, neither Paul Sperry nor WND have been served.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 9 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 week? Nadhira. access. MR. GARBUS: contact your office. MR. ABBAS: You sent it to myself and Take your time. Why don't you MR. GARBUS: I would be interested in

seeing this letter you say I sent last week. MR. ABBAS: I would love to have e-mail

I think both of us recall receiving that

e-mail last week. MR. GARBUS: such e-mail from me. I have my computer. I find no

But if you think you have it at

your office, I suggest you try and find it. MR. ABBAS: it up on my phone. MR. YERUSHALMI: Even so, would it not have Yes. Let's see if I can pull

been a mistake if you sent it? MR. GARBUS: It would have been a mistake, Nadhira and I

but I don't think I made a mistake.

have had previous conversations, we've always had clear understandings. If Nadhira says she's seen an

e-mail, I would be interested in knowing that. MS. AL-KHALILI: I believe I saw an e-mail,

saying you agreed to accept service for them. MR. GARBUS: And you say I sent it last

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 10 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. HOROWITZ: MS. AL-KHALILI: trying to find it. Yes, sir. We have to see that. I understand. We're

Mr. Garbus, you and I never had a

conversation in which you said you did not agree to accept service. MR. ABBAS: I found the e-mail. It's from

January 3rd, 2013, 10:19 a.m. of the e-mail. mgarbus@evw.com.

This is the full text

It's from Martin Garbus, "Joseph Farah will not be in the I think we will have to set

country on January 16th. another date. WND."

I will accept service for him and

I then e-mailed the subpoenas that were previously provided to you in regards to that e-mail. MR. GARBUS: MR. ABBAS: That doesn't relate to Sperry. It relates to both. Hold on. So even

I'm still not -- I still haven't completed.

if you accepted service -- let's just put that to the side now. Let's assume that you did for a second.

That doesn't resolve the issue -MR. GARBUS: Let me understand something.

I'm not accepting service, you have a discovery deadline, that's an issue you have to deal with the Judge on. I've been authorized by Farah that if

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 11 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 and confer. e-mail. closer. there is a deposition set by the Judge beyond the discovery date, that I would accept service for him. I have no authority to accept service for Sperry at all at any time. MR. ABBAS: Then I think we're a little bit

The issue that still remains is, if you

accepted service last week, that doesn't resolve our desire to take Paul Sperry and WorldNetDaily's deposition prior to the close of discovery or what defendants' counsels' position is regarding the extension of discovery to take those depositions. So that's all that -- you did send us that We sent you the subpoenas. But that doesn't

resolve the extension. MR. GARBUS:

We're on the same page then. Yes. I don't remember getting

the subpoenas, but if you say you sent them -- is there an e-mail sending me the subpoenas? MR. ABBAS: Regardless of -- I can check

the e-mails on the phone that I received. MR. YERUSHALMI: Let's just get to the meet

We only have until 6:00. MR. ABBAS: Hold on. You're pontificating.

MR. YERUSHALMI:

Just get to the issue on the meet and confer. MR. ABBAS: Mr. Yerushalmi, I ask that when

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 12 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Stop. I'm speaking, you allow me to finish prior to you speaking. MR. YERUSHALMI: Unless you're going to

pontificate during the seven hours -MS. AL-KHALILI: He wasn't pontificating.

He said two sentences and he's trying to continue. MR. YERUSHALMI: two depositions. ask questions. MS. AL-KHALILI: speaking for 30 seconds. MR. YERUSHALMI: Ms. Al-Khalili. That's cute, And you've just been I have seven hours to take

Mr. Horowitz is going to want to

That's cute. Unlike you, right? Hold on. Hold on.

MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. ABBAS: So the -MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. HOROWITZ: except me in this room. MR. ABBAS:

Hold on.

You're not cute. Everybody is nice looking

Thank you, Mr. Horowitz.

Our

position is that an extension of time to conduct the deposition of Paul Sperry and WorldNetDaily is absolutely reasonable under the circumstances. So I

think from your perspective, you set the dates for these depositions. We accepted the dates that you

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 13 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 set. And we had an understanding that those

depositions would be taken on those dates. And we provided e-mails of the subpoenas. Whether or not there was a misunderstanding, the e-mails, we'll pass that on, I know there's a dispute between Mr. Garbus and Nadhira about whether or not a conversation took place. Sperry and WorldNetDaily. But we want to depose Paul At this point, if

WorldNetDaily is out of the country, that would have to take place after the 18th. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: Are you done?

I am done. Okay. So defendants

MR. YERUSHALMI:

collectively take the same position that was set forth in Mr. Horowitz's letter and in my e-mail. The

fact is that the January 3rd date, if memory serves me correctly, would have been the date of the conference call with the Court. So Mr. Garbus, to the extent that he accepted, agreed to accept service if the Court established a date for WND's 30(b)(6) deposition, doesn't address the fact that as of January 3rd, you had not served either Mr. Sperry or WND. There was

no acceptance of service by anyone prior to January 3rd. And by the time that you had an agreement with

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 14 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Garbus on acceptance of service, to the extent that one exists, on January 3rd, the date that had been discussed a month previously was no longer available. If you wish to have -- and there's nothing more to discuss, because our position is, if you want to take a deposition beyond the 18th, you're going to have to make your case in writing to the Court and we will state our opposition. MR. ABBAS: Okay. So we've met and

conferred with respect to the issue of discovery -I'm sorry, extending discovery with respect to a desire of plaintiffs to depose WorldNetDaily and Paul Sperry. The second issue is the addition of parties and/or facts related to co-conspirators. As you all

know, beginning the first time that plaintiffs sought to take the deposition of defendants occurred in April of 2012. Plaintiffs again attempted to

schedule depositions in July and August and September. Mr. Garbus indicated that he was out of

commission the entirety of October. And then in November, subsequent to our production, there was an inability by defendants to take -- to accommodate plaintiffs' requests for

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 15 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 depositions to take place in the beginning of December, the end of November. So the reason that

the first time we've been able to depose Mr. Gaffney, and we still haven't deposed the Gaubatzes, is due to defendants' failure to schedule depositions. With that, because of that, we would request that defendants consent to the addition of other parties, including at this point Paul DonVito and Frank Gaffney. What we would say is that in the

alternative, we would want from the defendants both their position on the addition of defendants to the lawsuit, as well as their position on the addition of allegations pertaining to their role as co-conspirators in light of their deposition testimony. So those are the two parts of the leave we would like to have to amend the complaint. What we

would say is that, Mr. Yerushalmi, you were at those depositions, and they indicate that there is liability for those individuals. And so I think for

expediency it makes sense that they are a part of this lawsuit and not in some separate lawsuit. MR. YERUSHALMI: Well, first of all, your

rendering of the factual basis for the delay in discovery is false, patently so. I'm not going to go

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 16 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question -back over the facts that you have misstated. would be a waste of everyone's time. It

The depositions

are taking place in January as a result of your lack of diligence. And furthermore, to the extent that you're suggesting that Frank Gaffney or Paul DonVito are proper defendants in this or any other action, again, that would be based upon an absolutely inaccurate rendering of the facts that we have before us. But beyond that, even assuming that there was something available to you now that would suggest to you to name Frank Gaffney or Paul DonVito, that information was available to you back when we provided our full and complete production on behalf of the CSP defendants, which was back in May of last year. Indeed, you had sufficient information had you

wanted to name Frank Gaffney even prior to that. So the CSP defendants and I assume also the Gaubatz defendants' position is simply that we oppose opening up -- we oppose any motion for leave to amend the third amended complaint, especially since the Court has closed that by virtue of the scheduling order. Robert, do you have anything else to say? MR. HOROWITZ: Actually, I have a

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 17 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Muise. MR. MUISE: The only thing I would add, as

I mentioned to you, Mr. Abbas, I think even to attempt to add Mr. DonVito based on what was testified to at the deposition or based on what you claimed the basis for the allegations of the case to be about would be frivolous and we would seek sanctions against you under Rule 11. that you ought to take that very -MR. ABBAS: I appreciate the disclosure, And I think

And I would say I don't know, you know,

Mr. Muise, Paul DonVito is your client, he doesn't, as far as I can tell -- he makes entertainment shows. This is really -- I think he may feel he might have gotten mixed up with the bad kids on this one. it's your client, but just understand that he provided assistance to unlawful activities that he understood to be unlawful, and that's liability-inducing. So it's your call what -- and it's between you and your client as to whether or not it's actually in your client's best interests to be engaged in a separate legal action that could last years and attribute liability to him singularly. I guess that's a decision between you and your client. But So

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 18 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 are... MR. HOROWITZ: We would be raising claims MR. MUISE: It's your decision as to

whether your actions are going to comport with the Rule 11 requirements. on, Mr. Abbas. MR. HOROWITZ: Also if you lost on this I'm willing to take that one

case, you would lose on his clients anyway, collateral estoppel. It's been a long time since But I

I've been in law school, but that's an issue. actually had a question.

What is CAIR's thoughts

on -- if we wanted to move to file a counterclaim against CAIR, would you be opposed to that? MR. ABBAS: What is the thing that you

raising all the issues of CAIR's being in violation of Farah, CAIR's misusing its 501(c)(3) or (4) status, and/or (4) status, operating contrary to its role as a tax exempt organization, accepting foreign money, supporting terrorism. There's all the actions

the United States could bring as a civil case. We would go through that process, unless the government undertook it, you know, took up the case, then we would pursue it. If you would agree to

that in this case, so we could get that out of the way too, that would be something we would consider in

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 19 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 terms of our consent to you broadening the issues. MR. ABBAS: Just to clarify, I understand

that you're making a whole host of allegations against CAIR. I didn't hear what the claim is that

you're looking -MR. HOROWITZ: against the United States. MR. ABBAS: So you're going to sue the IRS? No. We would sue on behalf Damages against the IRS,

MR. HOROWITZ: of the United States. MR. ABBAS: suing under? MR. HOROWITZ:

What's the statute you would be

There's a statute.

I don't

know the citation, but David does, he knows everything, that allows citizens to sue on behalf of the United States for things like fraud and IRS issues. MR. ABBAS: Do you have -- without an

understanding as to what it is that would be the vehicle for your claim, I would say a meet and confer would be premature on your topic, because I don't know what you're referring to and you can't provide me a citation. MR. HOROWITZ: Basically it's just the I mean,

entire False Claims Act, all the statutes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 20 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 more time? MR. HOROWITZ: 3279 and related statutes. MR. ABBAS: If I could ask, what is the It should be under 31 USC it would be presenting a false claim, making or using a false record, statement material to a false claim, possessing property or money of the US and delivering less than all of it, like tax money, delivering a certified receipt with an intent to defraud the US. MR. YERUSHALMI: False Claims Act? MR. HOROWITZ: MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. HOROWITZ: Yes. Okay. You're referring to the US

Using a false record or

statement material to an obligation to pay or transmit money or a concealing or improperly avoiding or decreasing an obligation to pay money to the US, conspiracy to commit any such offense so we go after people who conspired with CAIR. Now, the government can initiate the suit or individuals can bring it. So that's a -- I mean,

it's going to be under 31 USC 3279 and all the related -MR. ABBAS: I'm sorry, can you say that one

factual basis for those claims?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 21 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. HOROWITZ: We would take the book

"Muslim Mafia" and present its contents at trial in support of those claims, plus the materials we've obtained during this last deposition, Mr. Saylor's deposition uncovered massive fraud, in terms of failure to file tax returns, the false excuses as to why they didn't file. The whole business that an

accountant lost the tax returns three years in a row and he never looked to find them, and the changing of the names for no reason. We clearly have foreign governments funding your organization. And obviously, you're the

attorneys for the organization, you're not responsible for the funding issues, but you've sat through the depositions, I think you understand this is not normal. MR. ABBAS: So if I understand it

correctly, it's defendants' -- I'm sorry, who would you be bringing counterclaims on behalf of? MR. HOROWITZ: just going back. Let me explain something,

You understand, this is a big part

of our defense anyway, so it would be coming in anyway. We would be stating it more affirmatively We would definitely bring in all the The Greater

and broadly.

CAIR entities as organizations.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 22 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Washington LLC investments, money in all the holding companies that exist. We might look nationally, in

terms of money, CAIR California has a lot of property. We would want to look and see if there's

any money shifting back and forth. And then we would look at the most culpable individuals, those who prepared the tax returns or were responsible for it. know, overly broadly. And obviously not go, you

I mean, we're not going to be We'll look for

looking for people like Mr. Saylor.

people who funneled money or material aid to Hamas, and keeping away entirely from the people who tried to serve this country by supporting civil rights. would avoid them entirely. MR. ABBAS: So who would you be bringing We

the counterclaims on behalf of? MR. HOROWITZ: I think at this point, it

would be all the different CAIR entities. MR. ABBAS: No. I got the "against." Who

would be making the counterclaims? MR. HOROWITZ: the United States. MR. ABBAS: Okay. And the factual basis The Gaubatzes, on behalf of

would be evidence in "Muslim Mafia"? MR. HOROWITZ: It would be the same thing

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 23 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that -MR. HOROWITZ: I could go on, but I don't we're putting on in our defense anyway. But the way

I would look at it is, basically we would take the book the "Muslim Mafia," prove up what's in it, take the Holy Land Foundation trial, to the degree that it's relevant to CAIR and to Mr. Awad and Mr. Achmad's connection to Hamas, their connection to Hamas and how CAIR was formed for the purpose of supporting Hamas, as I call it, in America and deceiving American Muslims of good faith and good intentions. And we would put that on and show how the tax returns and the financial fraud is connected to that. MR. ABBAS: Is there anything else or is

want to make you sit through my opinions when you don't really have the ability to respond. the point. MR. ABBAS: So based on your That's not

representations at this point, I'll say, one, that bringing it up, this topic up for the first time at a meet and confer that was previously scheduled, I think it's unfair to ask for our position on counterclaims that you're considering or what have

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 24 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 exchange. you, and the first that we're learning of it is today. So if you would like to -- our position would be that if you would like to schedule another time for a meet and confer regarding your issues, that's fine. To the extent that you are -- like you

had a proposition that we'll consent to your additions if you consent to our additions, I understand that as responsive to our request for leave. And we are not prepared to engage in that But regarding -- if you're making an

independent -- if you're seeking an independent meet and confer regarding your desire to add claims, I think it's proper to let us know what it is that you would want to meet and confer, and then do that another day, not to be difficult, but we're going to be in deposition. MR. HOROWITZ: You're not being difficult

at all, I think your point is reasonable. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: Yes. I don't think procedurally Are you done?

MR. YERUSHALMI: that's correct.

What we agreed to do yesterday was I heard for the

to have a global meet and confer.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 25 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 first time, as did the Gaubatz attorneys, heard for the first time today, based upon an agreement to have a global meet and confer, that you wished to add additional allegations and add additional defendants. I understand that you raised that with Mr. Muise as a sidebar after the DonVito deposition. But during the deposition yesterday, we agreed we would have a meet and confer on all discovery issues. And indeed that's exactly how we To the extent that

began this meet and confer.

Mr. Horowitz raises this issue, it's not by surprise. And it's not any more than you telling me now that you wanted to add defendants Paul DonVito and Frank Gaffney and additional allegations. Now that we're done with that, we'll move on to number 3, which is the -- by the way, the position remains, does it not, that at least as we sit here today, we've met and conferred on your request for additional defendants and additional allegations, and the defendants have collectively said that we would not stipulate or agree for a motion for leave to amend. MR. HOROWITZ: Can I add something? You're

also starting to get into the First Amendment arena when you talk about widening the people involved.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 26 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 say? MR. HOROWITZ: I think you're starting to MR. ABBAS: I didn't catch -- what did you

get into First Amendment issues when you start to widen the net of people you want to involve. It

involves an awful lot of Martin Garbus looking at the depositions, looking at the issues. There's going to

be a ton of motion work if you try to amend. I think that legitimate First Amendment discussions could tie up this case, if those amendments were made, for a very long time, because -- and that's part of the reason I think it's not wise to do it. MR. ABBAS: I appreciate the view. And

just to clarify on your position, Mr. Yerushalmi, so while I understand that the -- I don't know what the False Claims Act is, I've never read the False Claims Act. So I think it's reasonable that before I adopt

a position for plaintiffs, that I look at it. MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: That's fine.

Is that okay? They should teach that one

MR. HOROWITZ:

in law school, that's a public service statute. MR. ABBAS: I know. If it's all right with

you, Mr. Horowitz, I would like to look at it, and

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 27 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 can we then discuss your request to add False Claims Act claims? MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: Yes.

Great. The third issue is also

MR. YERUSHALMI: yours, Mr. Abbas. MR. ABBAS:

Mr. Yerushalmi, we spoke about,

in CSP's latest request for document production, we asked CSP to identify which documents or audio-video recordings were collected pursuant to which contractual agreements. produce anything. We're not asking you to

We understanding based on -- I

understand based on my conversation with you and your answers that it's the documents -- it's some subset of the documents and audio-video recordings that you've already produced to us. All we need, we just need a Bates stamp number or the dates of the disks from you, for us to have what we would deem to be responsive requests. MR. GARBUS: misunderstanding. MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. YERUSHALMI: That's okay. If I'm not mistaken, and Nadhira, I'm sorry if we had a

I'll just ask you to confirm yes or no, are you referring to plaintiffs' second request for

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 28 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 production of documents and defendant Center for Security Policy's responses to those? MR. ABBAS: Yes. Just to clarify, that

contains about 41 requests, can you confirm that? MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: It contains 41 requests. Yes.

Great.

MR. YERUSHALMI:

And part of our general

objections are that the total document request exceeds the number provided by the scheduling order. But notwithstanding that extant objection and the other objections that we raised, the request asks us to produce documents. example. Let's just take one for

Why don't you pick one, for example, that

you think we haven't answered or responded to correctly. MR. ABBAS: If you have it in front of you

right now, just go to -- it starts I think around 18, where the requests begin to identify by Bates stamp documents that we want to understand what was collected pursuant to that contract. that, Mr. Yerushalmi? MR. YERUSHALMI: I see 18 says, "All Do you see

documents that identify or refer to any funds received or disbursed in accordance with CSP 902 through 908." So in response to the e-mail, we have

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 29 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 response? MR. ABBAS: So we also ask for which gone back through documents. And I have not yet had

a chance to look at the documents that my client has provided. God willing, tonight I'll have an And then we can supplement.

opportunity.

And we'll provide whatever additional documents exist that represent specific payments to specific parties, break that out for you. But what

will not be able to be done, other than naming the parties through these documents, is being able to identify -- I guess for those payments, we can identify which agreements. That's not problematic.

But there was a whole other set -- is that the only issue that you had, or did you have other issues? Payments I think, to the extent we can And

identify which agreement, that's possible.

indeed we can just say generically that payments from CSP to Dave Gaubatz, for example, were pursuant to payments between CSP and Dave Gaubatz, presumably. But we'll go through that, that's fine. Are there any other issues on that

audio-video recordings if any were collected pursuant to this agreement or that agreement. MR. YERUSHALMI: Right. And that would be

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 30 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 problematic. MR. ABBAS: Why? Only because to We

MR. YERUSHALMI:

identify -- we might be able to do that as well.

won't be able to identify which audio-video clips of the group, because there was no record kept. But we

can certainly say that they're in response to this agreement or these agreements, and not these. certainly possible. MR. ABBAS: So just to make sure -So for example, to the That's

MR. YERUSHALMI:

extent that there is an agreement not related to the CAIR film project, then the audio clips would not be responsive to that particular agreement. MR. ABBAS: a quick second. I'm sorry. I lost you for just

Can you repeat that? Sure. To the extent that

MR. YERUSHALMI:

there is an agreement among the agreements you've listed by the CSP Bates numbers that has nothing to do with the CAIR film project, then presumably the audio-video clips do not relate to that agreement. To the extent we can identify. We can't identify

among the clips, if there are several agreements relating to the film project, which one was produced -- which one is relative to the other,

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 31 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 because I wouldn't know how to answer it. MR. ABBAS: But for the agreements that do

pertain to the CAIR film project, would the answer to those agreements be the audio-video recordings at large? MR. YERUSHALMI: We have no documents or no

way of determining with any greater specificity. That's the answer. MR. ABBAS: position is. But I'm asking what CSP's

It's your agreement. This is a request for

MR. YERUSHALMI:

production of documents, Mr. Abbas. MR. ABBAS: Right. It's not an interrogatory.

MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS:

I understand that. So we're going to provide

MR. YERUSHALMI:

you documents and identify the documents to the best of our ability to which one of the requests for production they're responsive to. broad. Your requests are And so I'm

They talk about any and all.

going to respond to them to the best of our ability. I can't do better than that. MR. ABBAS: Okay. So you're going to

provide extra specificity to your responses in line with there are contracts you're going to be able to

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 32 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 know. exclude that were not pertaining to the CAIR film project? MR. YERUSHALMI: To the extent. I don't

I'll have to go back and read your definitions And then I'll have to go And

and read your instructions.

back and look at the agreements you've cited to.

then based upon my best judgment, I will determine if some of those agreements are unrelated to the film project and some are related to the film project. And then I can make that determination. And I will certainly do so, as I told you I would. MR. ABBAS: So we'll get an updated version

of the request for productions based on an added layer of review pursuant to this discussion? MR. YERUSHALMI: better than I already have. MR. ABBAS: appreciate it. MR. YERUSHALMI: We've long since learned I'm not trying to -- I I don't know how to answer

each other's modus operandi, and you like to repeat what is said in your own words and get another answer. done. MR. ABBAS: If we're meeting and conferring I can't do any better than I've already

right now about the second request for productions

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 33 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 for. respond. and you intend to alter the answers to the second request for productions, I would need to see the answers before deciding whether your new answers I feel comply with your obligations. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: What's the question?

So I'm asking, when will you be

able to -- when will you be able to say these are the answers that we're sticking with for the second request for production of documents? MR. YERUSHALMI: not going to alter anything. Again, Mr. Abbas, we're To the extent that

you've asked for greater specificity, I will go back and make an assessment of whether or not, one, greater specificity can be had, and two, whether greater specificity would be required by the actual definitions of your request for production, by your instructions in requests for production, and by the rules. Once I've made that assessment, I will I can tell you that I should be able to do

so by Friday. MR. ABBAS: Great. MR. YERUSHALMI: And then you can decide That was what I was looking

whether whatever my response is is good, if you want

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 34 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 to have another meet and confer following that to see or get clarification, we're more than willing. MR. ABBAS: Great. That sounds good.

MR. YERUSHALMI:

So the last issue then --

are we done with your number 3? MR. ABBAS: Yes. So we're done with all of

MR. YERUSHALMI: your issues? MR. ABBAS: Yes.

MR. YERUSHALMI: number 14 and 15.

So the last issue is

And that doesn't require long

harangues since we've certainly gone through that ad nauseam yesterday. We want 14 and 15 answered by the You

30(b)(6) deponents and by other employees.

certainly refused as to the 30(b)(6) at some point, to be honest with you, I wasn't clear when and how. Sometimes Corey Saylor answered personally to some questions. The record to me at least sitting here

was not clear. I assume your position remains what it was yesterday, that the 30(b)(6)'s -- you will not produce a 30(b)(6) deponent to answer questions relative to subject matter 14 and 15, a simple yes or no, and then we'll move on. MR. ABBAS: Real quick, what is it that

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 35 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. you're looking for beyond what -- in addition to topics 14 and 15, what would be the thing that -- are you looking for three hours regarding topics 14 and 15? Is that what you're looking at? Are you looking

for seven hours?

Are you looking for two hours?

What is it that defendants' position is regarding like the relief that it's looking for? MR. YERUSHALMI: I don't know how to answer

My guess is, depending upon the answers, I

don't know what the Gaubatz attorneys would require, probably, for our purposes, an hour, an hour and a half on each of the subject matters. MR. ABBAS: Okay. Do the other defendants

have a position on what they would want? MR. YERUSHALMI: But it would only be if we

could have it before the 18th. MR. HOROWITZ: I could probably cover

everything in about an hour and a half. MR. YERUSHALMI: collectively three hours. MR. ABBAS: Okay. Let me give you an Is So let's just say

answer at the end of the day one way or another. that all right? MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. HOROWITZ: Mm-hmm. The good thing is to the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 36 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 first. MR. HOROWITZ: looked at the e-mails. e-mails sent on the 4th. We don't represent him. There were actually two Martin Garbus made it very I degree that Mr. Yerushalmi covers things, you know, you've already seen that I don't repeat what he does. So it might be less time. MR. ABBAS: Okay. One final issue I would

MR. YERUSHALMI:

like to -- it's not a meet and confer, it's just a scheduling matter. Insofar as we do not have any

depositions scheduled on the 16th, which were going to be for WND and Sperry, and insofar as you haven't served Mr. Sperry at all, and insofar as Mr. Farah is not going to be in the country -MR. ABBAS: available on the 16th? Just on that, is Mr. Sperry Because I think the Judge's

instructions were pretty clear -MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: should be deposed. MR. YERUSHALMI: He would have to be served No.

-- that if he's available, he

clear that he's not representing Sperry to accept service. And the issue of service for Farah was on

another date, if there was another date.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 37 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Never mind. was what? MR. ABBAS: So Mr. Garbus, you're MR. ABBAS: Mr. Horowitz. MR. HOROWITZ: I'm sorry. Your question That wasn't my question,

representing WorldNetDaily and Paul Sperry? MR. GARBUS: MR. ABBAS: Yes. Have you had a conversation

with Mr. Sperry regarding his availability on the 16th? MR. GARBUS: MR. ABBAS: He's not available. Okay. That's all I wanted. Insofar as no one is

MR. YERUSHALMI:

available from the WorldNetDaily/Sperry group, and I am available, can we move my deposition to Wednesday and Thursday as opposed to Thursday and Friday? tell you why as a practical matter. Friday is a I'll

short day in the wintertime and I would have to leave by -- so we would have to start earlier, I would have to -MR. MUISE: can't do that. MR. YERUSHALMI: Oh, we talked about that. David, sorry to interrupt. We

I'll drop that subject. MR. ABBAS: I would be amenable to

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 38 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 six hours. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: Well, I'll go to 4. something like that. MR. YERUSHALMI: Just to be clear, fairly

clear, we're going to have to conclude the Friday deposition by 3:00. If you want to start early, I'm

willing to go through lunch, but I have to be out of here by 3:00. MR. ABBAS: I don't know what your

testimony is going to be on Thursday, but we said that seven hours per day, so the expectation is that there would be seven hours of availability for the three people that are being deposed, both Thursday as well as Friday. MR. YERUSHALMI: starting on Friday? MR. ABBAS: 9:30. Let's start it at 9. And When is the deposition

MR. YERUSHALMI:

I will be available for seven hours, but no breaks, literally no breaks. MR. ABBAS: That's six hours. 9 to 3 is

If you can go to 4 and we can

start at 8, I think -- so I think it's unrealistic to say that there's going to be zero breaks. would be eight hours of total time. So 8 to 4

That would give

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 39 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here? MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. HOROWITZ: He's a party. To watch what's going on. us an hour of breaks. So that works for you? Mm-hmm.

MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS:

Great. Now can we start the depo? Why is Chris Gaubatz

MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD having been duly sworn, testified as follows: EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR CSP DEFENDANTS BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Thank you for coming to your deposition And would you just pronounce your

today, Mr. Awad.

name so I'll get it correct? A Q Nihad Awad Hammad. And if I may ask you just to speak up

loudly because the court reporter has to take down everything you say, and I have to hear it so I know what you've answered. hearing. A Q A Q And I'm a little hard of

So again, the pronunciation of your name? Nihad Awad Hammad. Hammad? Yes. And Nihad is spelled N-I-H-A-D?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 40 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q Or N-E-H-A-D. And Awad is A-W-A-D? Or A-W-W-A-D. Or A-W-W-A-D. So there's alternative

spellings for both the first name and the middle name. A Q A Q And Hammad is spelled how? H-A-M-M-A-D. H-A-M-M-A-D? Yes. I note in many locations on legal documents

and publicly you identify yourself as Nihad Awad, correct? A Q Yes. And again, let's back up a second. Have

you ever had your deposition taken before? A Q A Q A Q Yes. How many times? Once. Once before? (Witness nods head.) It is very important, I see that you're

soft-spoken, to speak up, because again, I'm hard of hearing, and the court reporter needs to be able to take everything down. And so if I can just ask you

again to raise your voice, and I will do so

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 41 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 throughout, okay? A Q Okay. Also because the court reporter is taking

down everything that I am saying and everything that you are saying, I would ask that you wait until I'm done asking my question, not to anticipate my question, and then I will wait until you've answered completely before I ask my next question. A Q A Q Yes. And again, raise your voice. Okay. Thank you. And because the court reporter Agreeable?

is taking everything down, I'm going to ask you to articulate your answers, that is to say, yes, no, not uh-huh, uh-uh, or nods of the head. agreeable? A Q Yes. Good. You understand you've been sworn in Is that

and you are testifying under oath? A Q Yes. On occasion, your counsel, Mr. Abbas, may Unless he instructs

object to one of my questions.

you not to answer, then when he's done you should go ahead and answer the question to the best of your ability. Agreeable?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 42 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. If you don't understand a question, feel

free to ask me or tell me you don't understand and I will repeat it. A Q Okay?

No problem. And hopefully I'll repeat it in a way that Okay?

will be understandable to you. A Q Yes.

Is there any reason I should not be taking For example, are you under

your deposition today?

medication, under the influence of any drug or alcohol or suffering from any mental disease or defect? A Q No. And that's just a formal question, it What is

appears to me you're lucid and coherent. your formal legal name? A Q Nihad Awad Hammad.

And as I was beginning to ask you, I note

that on many legal documents and also publicly, you represent yourself as Nihad Awad, correct? A Q Yes. Why do you use that shorter name as opposed

to your legal name, for example on legal documents? A It's a cultural thing.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 43 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Let me ask you to stop. It might be hard You have a

because, again, you're very soft-spoken.

little bit of an accent, but your English is clear. But I will just ask you again, and maybe your counsel can assist too in nudging you a little bit, to speak up loudly. We have a room full of attorneys that

have to hear everything. A That's a problem I have with my voice. I

cannot scream. Q No one's asking you to scream. Just

project a little bit. A Okay. Sure. I should say I'm 60 years

MR. HOROWITZ:

old, almost, so I don't hear as well as some of the younger people who work for you. repeat yourself -THE WITNESS: MR. HOROWITZ: Can you come closer? No, because we have to So if I ask you to

spread out, we have papers. MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. HOROWITZ: to your witness. MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. HOROWITZ: MR. YERUSHALMI: No, we don't want that. You can elbow me. Let's go ahead and We can move. If you want me to sit next

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 44 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question. plaintiff? MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. YERUSHALMI: Mr. Abbas. I also want, because we introduce counsel on the record so you know who's here. My name is David Yerushalmi, and I represent

the CSP defendants in this matter. MR. GARBUS: Martin Garbus with Dan

Horowitz, we represent the Gaubatzes. MS. AL-KHALILI: Nadhira Al-Khalili. We

represent the CAIR plaintiffs. MR. ABBAS: Gadeir Abbas. I represent the

CAIR plaintiffs and Nihad Awad. MR. YERUSHALMI: Robert Muise, who is on

the telephone, represents -- go ahead, Robert. MR. MUISE: I'm representing the CSP

defendants, as well as the Society of Americans for National Existence, as well as David Yerushalmi. MR. YERUSHALMI: In the room, we also have

one of the defendants, Chris Gaubatz. MR. HOROWITZ: I have an interesting

Who is going to be making objections for

had various documents continuing from the prior deposition, I'm going to be handing you deposition exhibit binders. I'm just going to kind of clear the We have what's been marked as

record a little bit.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 45 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Exhibit 1-A. And that is a three-ring binder that

has the CSP Depo Exhibit Bates numbers 1 through 476. And Exhibit 1-B which begins with the CSP Deposition Exhibit Bates number 477 through 890. This is also Exhibit 1-B, in a three-ring binder. This exhibit was initially marked at the Raabia Wazir deposition. We have CSP Deposition Exhibit Number 2, which is also a three-ring binder, which runs from CSP Depo Exhibit Bates number 891 through 1151. was marked as Mr. Saylor's deposition yesterday. We also have CSP Deposition Exhibit Number 3, which is CSP Depo Exhibit Bates numbers 1152 through 1216. And this was marked yesterday. It This

includes the third amended complaint with a summons attached at the beginning. And importantly, at Bates

1208 of Exhibit CSP Depo Exhibit 3, it begins a plaintiffs' third supplement to its initial disclosures which was served on all defendants by e-mail on January 8th, 2013, yesterday. We also have, of the CSP deposition exhibits, CSP Deposition Exhibit 5 which are documents that were produced yesterday at Mr. Saylor's deposition at the beginning. described those documents on the record. And we They are

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 46 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Number 6. now CSP Deposition Exhibit 5. through 1264. And they're Bates 1217

And they begin with a Council on

American-Islamic Relations Inc. Form 1120 dated 2010. And the other batch of documents that are a part of that CSP Depo Exhibit Number 5 is a Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. Form 8879-C dated 2011. Finally, we have CSP Deposition Exhibit And CSP Deposition Exhibit Number 6 is And it runs from CSP Depo Now, this exhibit

also a three-ring binder.

Exhibit Bates 1265 through 1567.

consists of two groups of documents, as I would describe them. The first group of documents running

from Bates 1265 through 1298 are all of the confidentiality and nondisclosure agreements provided by plaintiffs yesterday during Mr. Saylor's deposition that were to be the employee signed agreements, who were employees during Chris Gaubatz's internship tenure. The remainder of CSP Deposition Exhibit 6 which begins at Bates 1299 through the end, Bates 1567, are additional documents that I had included and that I anticipate we will be addressing today during the depositions. In addition to those deposition exhibits,

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 47 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Horowitz during his examination also asked to be marked as CSP depo Exhibit Number 4, a single document entitled "Articles of Amendment to Articles of Incorporation of Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc." Mr. Horowitz also asked for CSP Deposition It is a government exhibit And it runs several

Exhibit 7 to be marked.

003-0078 in the US v. HLF trial. pages that are stapled.

Mr. Horowitz also asked to mark as CSP Deposition Exhibit Number 8 an unclassified document labeled at the top "E-46," and it's two pages. Mr. Horowitz also asked to be marked as CSP Deposition Exhibit 9 another document printout which says "Unclassified" and on the top right margin has an "E-42." It's also two pages. Let me ask the

court reporter, are those all the exhibits we have to date? The court reporter indicates yes. MR. ABBAS: Mr. Yerushalmi, yesterday

plaintiffs' counsel did not receive copies of the exhibits Mr. Horowitz introduced. Mr. Horowitz, do

you have copies of those exhibits for me today? MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: No.

Are we going to be able to get

copies of those exhibits at some point today?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 48 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that? MR. HOROWITZ: We discussed it yesterday, MR. YERUSHALMI: If you would like, we can And I can give

certainly accommodate Mr. Horowitz.

them to someone out in reception and ask them to make copies now, if you like. MR. ABBAS: Is that all right? Can we do

Mr. Yerushalmi offered that. MR. ABBAS: Thank you. We'll go off the record

MR. YERUSHALMI: for just a moment. MR. ABBAS: Okay.

(Discussion off the record.) BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Mr. Awad? A Q right? A Q That's fine. Good. MR. YERUSHALMI: Mr. Abbas, I provided you Either way. I know you as Nihad Awad. Is that all Would you prefer I call you Mr. Hammad or

already with Exhibit 6, which includes everything from yesterday. MS. AL-KHALILI: Are these all ours?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 49 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ABBAS: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Mr. Awad, I have placed before you what has You'll Yes.

been marked as CSP Depo Exhibit Number 6.

notice that at the top of every page, if you open that three-ring binder, you will see a Bates number, as we call them. You can ignore the prefixes and go Do you see those? So

to the last Arabic numerals.

at the very top of the page, I'm now pointing to your first page. A Q You see this Bates 1265? Yes. And so when I refer to a page number or if

I might say Bates number, that's the number I'm referring to, not to any other page number that might appear on the document. A Q number. A Q Okay. And every page of Exhibit 6 has a Bates They run consecutively. Okay. I'm going to ask you to turn to Bates 1393 Okay? Is that agreeable?

of Exhibit 6. A Q This one? Yes. This is a certificate from the

government of the District of Columbia identifying the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 50 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Network Inc. A Q Do you see that?

Yes. And do you see that it states that the date

of incorporation was the 15th day of September, 1994? A Q Yes. Now, in fact, when -- let's do something You're currently the executive

else for a minute.

director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations? A Q A Q Yes. Otherwise known as CAIR, correct? Yes. Now, when you -- strike that. You were one

of the founding members of CAIR, correct? A Q Yes. In fact, you were one of the founding

incorporators of CAIR, correct? A Q A Q Yes. And you founded CAIR in 1994? Correct. And in 1994, it wasn't referred to as the

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc.; it was just referred to as the Council on American-Islamic Relations, Inc., correct? A I can't remember.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 51 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 CAIR? A Q Yes. When I use the word "CAIR," I'm referring Q You have been the executive director of

CAIR that was founded in 1994 from its inception to today? A Q Yes. You also serve on the board of directors at

to this entity that was created in 1994 for which you've served as the executive director from its inception until today. A Q Yes. If I use a different name, for example, the Okay?

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc., I'm referring to that specific entity, okay? A Q Okay. And if I refer to CAIR Foundation Inc., I'm Okay?

referring to a separate entity. A Q Okay.

What do you understand to be the difference

between the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. -- CAIR -- and the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc.? A Q I don't know. I'm sorry?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 52 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 two? A Q Yes. And do you know the difference between the A Q I don't know. You don't know the difference between the

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc. and CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q Almost. Before we go to the "almost," let me ask

you, what do you understand the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc. to be? A Well, over the years, the organization was Then the board met So

just at the beginning, one name.

and changed names and did different registration. I don't recall the similarities or differences between the organizations.

All I know now is we have

I believe CAIR Foundation and CAIR Action Network. Q So let's shorten the names, as you just If we say CAIR

have, I think that's a good use.

Action Network, we're going to be referring to the Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network Inc., agreeable? A Q Okay. And that is the organization you just

described as CAIR Action Network, correct?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 53 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. And if we refer to CAIR Foundation, we're

referring to CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q A Q Okay. Is that agreeable? That's fine. Now, you indicated that when you

incorporated CAIR Inc., and again, that's our shorthand for the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., correct? A Q Okay. And that was the organization that you

began in 1994, correct? A Q correct? A Q Yes. At some point in time, that organization's Yes. And you recall that being its name,

board changed its name; is that what you understand to have taken place? A Q Vaguely. My memory is vague.

So you're not sure whether they changed the

name of CAIR Inc. or whether they just started a new organization called CAIR Action Network? A Well, the board met several times with

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 54 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 different lawyers. And I'm not privy to the exact It's been maybe

language that was used at the time. quite some time. Q

And just to be clear, I understand you're Are you?

not an attorney. A Q opinion. No.

And so I'm not asking for any legal I'm simply asking for your understanding And that's all I will ask for

and your knowledge. the entire day. A Q moment. Okay.

Okay?

I'll take CSP Exhibit 6 back for just a I'm going to hand you what's been marked as If you would open that

CSP Deposition Exhibit 5.

three-ring binder to the first page, which is Bates 1217. A Q Do you see the Bates stamp at the very top? Yes. Now, in addition, there is a second group Let me just for the record, and I

of documents.

already indicated when we were talking about all the exhibits, these documents were provided to us by your counsel, Mr. Abbas, yesterday, as an additional production in this case. And I'm looking at a Form Do you see that?

1120 dated 2010 on Bates 1217. A Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 55 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 you? A No. Q And do you see the name of the filer on

this particular IRS document, Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A Q Yes. And you see at the bottom of this page that

the date of the preparation is 9/16, 2012? A Q Yes. If I ask you to turn your attention to the

box on the form labeled B as in boy, it's right underneath the 2010 top right. A Q Which one? The box labeled B. And it has a number for Do you see that?

the employer identification number 04-3617757. A Q A Q This one. Okay.

Do you see that? Yes. Are you familiar with CAIR Inc.'s employer

identification number? A Q No. Are you familiar with CAIR Action Network's

employer identification number? A Q No. So that number doesn't mean anything to

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 56 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q Q Now, if you turn your attention to the

bottom of the page, do you see where it has a signature line and it has a printed box, "Sign here"? A Q Yes. And then if you follow that signature line

across, you see that there's a place for signature, a date, and it identifies the signor as a director. you see that? A Q A Q Yes. Are you still a director of CAIR Inc.? Yes. And would you be the one that would sign Do

this IRS filing? A Q After the CPA prepares it. Have you seen this document before? And in

fact, it consists of several pages, and you can flip through it if it would help, through Bates 1239. That would be the end of that Form 1120. Okay. So...

Are you familiar with that document? I can't remember. Do you recall signing this document? I have to see if I did. But you don't recall sitting here today

whether you signed it or not?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 57 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 down. A Well, I sign documents when we send them to

the IRS, but I need to see the actual one to see if I did or not. Q I understand. I'm simply asking, do you

recall today having signed the document? A Q I have to see if I did or not. Right. Meaning that you don't recall

sitting here, without the document in front of you, signed -A Q A Q A Q Yes. -- whether you signed it or not? Yes. I can't tell you.

Again -Unless I see the actual document. Okay. Again, I'll ask both of us to slow

Let me finish my question and then when you

respond, okay? A Q Sure. At the bottom of Bates 1217, the first page

of this document, at the bottom of the page, it says, "Paid preparer use only," and there's a name, G. F. Joey Musmar CPA of Miller Musmar PC. that? A Q Yes. Do you know who that individual and that Do you see

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 58 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 firm are? A Q A Q Yes. Who are they? A CPA who work with us on office filings. And sitting here today, do you understand

what this filing is for? A 2010." Q And it's for the Council on It says "US Corporation Income Tax Return,

American-Islamic Relations Inc., correct? A Q Yes. And that is the organization that you

founded and for which you serve as the executive director? A Q Yes. Are you paid for your services as an

executive director of CAIR Inc.? A Q Yes. And have you been paid for your services

throughout CAIR Inc.'s existence? A Q Yes. Now, we talked a little bit earlier about

CAIR Action Network and CAIR Foundation, correct? A Q Yes. And you had some idea about the distinction

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 59 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 between those two entities. Would you tell me what

you understand to be the difference between those two entities? A Q No, I cannot tell you exactly. Do you serve in any official capacity for

CAIR Action Network? A Q I think I'm a board member. A board member. Are you executive director

or an officer of that company? A Q I'm executive director of CAIR Foundation. So you serve as the executive director of

CAIR Inc. and of CAIR Foundation? A Q CAIR Foundation. Did you not testify earlier that you serve

as the executive director of CAIR Inc.? A Q A Q A No, I said CAIR Foundation. Okay. So again, looking --

I told you that -- are you done? Please. The names have changed over the years. And

I'm not privy to the exact distinction between the various organizations. I serve in my capacity as And I have a

executive director of CAIR Foundation.

good understanding of what this organization is. Q I didn't hear the last part.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 60 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I have a good idea of that organization,

what that represents, and my capacity in that organization. Q I direct your attention again to the first And we were talking

page of CSP Depo Exhibit 5.

about the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. Form 1120 2010 filing. A Q A Q This one? Yes. Yes. And I asked you if you were the executive And your answer was Do you see that?

director of this organization. yes.

Is your answer now that you are not the

executive director of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A Q A Q A Q Okay. I think you're confusing me.

And I don't mean to. Okay. So let's start over. Okay. What is your relationship to the Council on

American-Islamic Relations Inc., the organization that filed this Form 1120 in the year 2010, which is CSP Depo Exhibit 5, Bates number 1217? MR. ABBAS: Objection, mischaracterizes the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 61 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 document. BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Go ahead. You asked -- you gave me a document. It

doesn't have my signature. document where I can verify? Q question.

Do you have the original

Well, that would be an interesting This is the document that your attorneys

provided to us yesterday. A Q Okay. As the most recent filings of the Council And I'm simply

on American-Islamic Relations Inc.

asking you what your relationship is to this organization, the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. know. A Q A Now, if you don't know, you don't

It's not a trick question. It does not have my name here. Right. So if I have my name, I will have better

memory to answer your question more correctly. Q Okay. Now, you do recognize that CPA firm

we just looked at at the bottom, Miller Musmar PC. A Q Yes. And they are the accounting firm for which

organization?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 62 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I think they do filing, in my

understanding, for the entities that -- under the auspices of the organization. Q And to the best of your understanding, what

are those organizations that are under the auspices of CAIR? A I do not have exact description of those But I know that this CPA that you

organizations.

mentioned does accounting for the organizations that we are involved in. Q Now, I don't want exact descriptions. I

just want the name of those organizations that fall under the auspices of CAIR. A You mentioned several names for me. So I speak to the Court now. And So if

it's confusing.

I do not know exactly, I should not tell you something I'm not 100 percent sure. Q A Q That's absolutely correct. Yes. And so the answers to various questions can

be a substantive answer if you know, if it requires a specific answer. question. know. A It can be a yes if it's a yes-no And it can be I don't

It can be a no.

Correct? Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 63 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q So do you know the names of any

organizations "under the auspices of CAIR"? A Q I know that I work for CAIR Foundation. Is there a name of any other organization

under the auspices of CAIR? A I think our attorneys have a better grasp And since I'm speaking to the

of those entities.

Court, I will not be accurate if I give you a different answer than what I gave you. Q of CAIR? A We have been using the CAIR name in Is CAIR Foundation Inc. under the auspices

different capacities now from the beginning of this deposition, so do you mean "CAIR" equals CAIR Foundation, in your question to me? Q No. Let's define -- and to be clear, it So

was your term, "under the auspices of CAIR." let's just put that aside for now. A Q Maybe that wasn't accurate.

And sometimes my questions aren't accurate

as well, and the record will make that clear at the end of the day. So let's step back for a moment.

And you see the address on this Form 1120, 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, Washington, DC, 20003? A 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 64 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Are those the offices of the organization

CAIR, C-A-I-R? A Q Yes. Are those the offices of the organization

you sometimes refer to as CAIR National? A Q Yes. When you use the word "CAIR" alone and

"CAIR National," are you referring to the same organization? A Yes. The organization I work with, which And sometimes people refer to it

is CAIR Foundation.

CAIR, and sometimes they refer to it CAIR National. Q So you refer to CAIR or CAIR National -When you refer to CAIR or CAIR

strike that.

National, you're referring to CAIR Foundation Inc.? A Q The organization I work for. Are there any other organizations related

to CAIR Foundation Inc. that exist at that address, 453 New Jersey Avenue, Southeast, Washington, DC, 20003? A That's a technical question. And I think

our lawyers would have a better description and ability to answer that. Q Do you know of any organizations associated

or related to CAIR in any way, shape, or form that

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 65 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 operate out of those offices? A Q No. You have testified that you are the current

executive director of CAIR Foundation, correct? A Q Yes. And how long have you been the executive

director of CAIR Foundation? A Q A Q A Since it was registered. And when was it registered? I don't recall exactly. Would it be approximately 1994? Well, from the beginning of the deposition,

we said that I was one of the incorporators of the name you mentioned to me. Then CAIR Foundation I do not

probably took this name at a later date. have that date. Q

Is it your understanding that CAIR

Foundation is a successor entity to whatever that organization was in 1994? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague as to what

"successor entity" means. A I do not understand your question.

BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Fair enough. I'm going to take CSP And I'm going to put

Deposition Exhibit 5 back.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 66 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q before you again CSP Deposition Exhibit 6. going to ask you to turn to Bates 1394. And I'm

Mr. Awad,

are you at Bates 1394 of CSP Deposition Exhibit 6? This number at the top. A Q Yes. This is a certificate from the government And it reads as Do you see that?

of the District of Columbia. follows:

"This is to certify that all applicable

provisions of the District of Columbia Nonprofit Corporation Act have been complied with and accordingly this certificate of incorporation is hereby issued to Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. as of September 15th, 1994." Do you see that? Yes. Did you have anything to do with the

founding of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. on September 15th, 1994? A Q Yes. And what was your involvement in 1994

post-September 15th with the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I believe I was one of the incorporators,

if I'm not mistaken. Q Other than being an incorporator, did you

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 67 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 have any other role? A Q I can't remember. And subsequently, to today, have you had

any relationship or association with the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I just needed to know if -- what you mean

by any role besides my being an incorporator. Q Fair enough. Did you serve on the board of

directors at any time from September 15, 1994 until today, on the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A It's been 19 years, so I don't have exact

memory of how these evolved over time. Q present. But my question was from 1994 to the So it includes very recent memory. So I'll

ask it again. A Q again. I -One second, Mr. Awad. So I will ask it

Have you served on the board at any time from

September 15th, 1994, until today, on the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc.? A I served as a member of the board on

Council on American-Islamic Relations, abbreviated with CAIR, since the beginning, 1994. Q When you say "abbreviated with CAIR," what

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 68 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Awad? A Q It's been a long time. I understand that. My question is, are you does that mean? A C-A-I-R. Because the organization's acronym is CAIR, Now, the variations of the names as we have

been saying since the beginning of the deposition varies. It's confusing. And I'm not an attorney.

So just my affiliation with the organization is being an executive director of CAIR. Those names have changed over the time. There have been some registration and reregistration. I'm not privy to the details of the variations of the names, if any. Q Thank you. A Q Okay. I would have you turn to the next page, And you will see And that's a perfectly legitimate answer.

Bates 1395, of CSP Depo Exhibit 6.

that this document represents the articles of incorporation that were filed on September 15, 1994 of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. in the District of Columbia. through Bates 1399. Are you familiar with this document, And this document runs

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 69 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 time. Q It has been. And for those of us long of familiar with this document? A Q A Yes. Let me -Qualifying also my answer, it's been a long

tooth, it's an even longer period of time. A Q Exhibit 6. A Q Right. Let me ask you to turn to Bates 1398 of Are you there, Mr. Awad? Yes, sir. You see under article IX, a listing of the

directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. which is also referred to as CAIR? A Q Yes. Could you read those names that are listed

there, please. A Q A Q From the top? From the top. Rafeeq, R-A-F-E-E-Q, J-A-B-E-R. Let me just repeat for the record so Rafeeq Jaber, R-A-F-E-E-Q,

everybody can hear. J-A-B-E-R. A Q Correct? Yes.

And do you know a Rafeeq Jaber?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 70 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Yes. And do you recall him serving on the

directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations in 1994? A Q A Q Yes. And would you read the next name, please. Omar Ahmad. And again for the record, that's spelled

O-M-A-R, last name A-H-M-A-D; is that correct? A Q Yes. And do you recall Mr. Ahmad serving on the

board of directors of the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. in 1994? A Q A Q A Q correct? A Q A Q Correct. And would that be you? Yes. And do you recall serving on the board of Yes. And do you know a Mr. Omar Ahmad? Yes. And the last name, please. Nehad Hammad. And that's spelled N-E-H-A-D, H-A-M-M-A-D,

directors of the Council on American-Islamic

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 71 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Relations Inc. in 1994? A Q Yes. I would like you, on the same page, to That's Bates 1398

focus your attention to article X. of Exhibit 6.

Can you read the names of the initial

incorporators, please. A Q Rafeeq Jaber. And was that the same Rafeeq Jaber that we

saw above as a board member? A Q A Q It looks like it. In fact, it's the same address, correct? It looks like it. And the next name on the list of initial

incorporators, please? A Q Omar Ahmad. And do you know if that's the same Omar

Ahmad that's listed as a board member? A Q I believe so. Do you recall that Mr. Jaber and Mr. Ahmad

were your co-incorporators in 1994? A Q Yes. And of course, the last name under article

X is your name, correct? A Q Yes. So the three of you gentlemen served as the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 72 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 initial incorporators and also the initial board members, correct? A Q can recall? A Q No, I can't recall. If you turn to the next page, just for the Correct. Were there any other board members that you

record, Bates 1399 of CSP Depo Exhibit Number 6, you see the signatures of all three of you gentlemen, and they're all notarized. A Q Yes. Does that appear to be your signature under Do you see that?

the "Nehad Hammad" signature line or above it? A Q Yes. Now, I'm interested in Mr. Ahmad, Omar

Ahmad, who served with you as a co-incorporator and co-board member for CAIR Inc. or Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc. And if I say "CAIR"

or "CAIR Inc.," we're referring to this organization that we have been looking at now, the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., incorporated in 1994. A Q Is that agreeable? Okay. And if I'm going to refer to CAIR

Foundation, I'm going to say "CAIR Foundation."

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 73 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ahead. A I don't understand your question. question. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: I'll restate my objection. Go conclusion. MR. YERUSHALMI: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q I'm asking for your understanding. I'm not No. Correct? A Q Okay. Do you understand that CAIR Foundation is a What do you

separate entity, or -- strike that.

understand is the relationship between CAIR Foundation and CAIR? MR. ABBAS: Objection, calls for a legal

asking for a legal conclusion, as I said from the very beginning. understanding is. MR. YERUSHALMI: Could you read back my I simply want to know what your

BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Do you understand them to be the same

organization? A Q I do not know exactly. And again, as I indicated, "I don't know"

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 74 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is a perfectly legitimate answer. A Q Okay. Other than serving as a board member and as

the initial incorporator of CAIR Inc., did you have any other role over the years with CAIR Inc.? A As I said, I have been the founding

executive director of CAIR from day one until now. Q A Q Until now? Yes. Now, Mr. Omar Ahmad served as an initial

board member with you in CAIR Inc., the Council on American-Islamic Relations Inc., and as a co-incorporator. with CAIR Inc.? MR. ABBAS: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Q A Go ahead and answer. For a number of years. Do you recall when his relationship ended? I can't exactly remember the date; but yes, Objection, relevance. How long was Mr. Ahmad involved

it ended years ago. Q Did Mr. Ahmad serve in any capacity other

than as a board member, such as an officer of CAIR Inc.? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 75 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Inc.? A Q in between? A Q I believe so. Other than serving as the initial Yes. In a continuous fashion, no interruptions BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Q Go ahead and answer. He served as the chairman of the board. And what years did he serve as chairman of

the board of CAIR Inc.? A Q A Q From the beginning. From the beginning? Yes. Until he ended his relationship with CAIR

incorporator and as a board member and as the executive director of CAIR Inc., have you had any other positions or roles at CAIR Inc.? A Q I can't remember. Are you paid for your position as executive

director of CAIR Inc. today? A Q Yes. Do you have any other employment

relationship with any other organization? A No.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 76 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q Are you also the executive director of CAIR

Foundation Inc.? A Q A I'm the executive director of CAIR. Of CAIR. (Witness nods head.) We said, CAIR, CAIR

Foundation, the other names.

So I don't understand

exactly what you have in mind in terms of distinction. To me, I'm the executive director of an

organization that I serve as also board member, which is alternatively using the name CAIR and CAIR Foundation. Q Good. Now, do you serve on the board of

any other organization that uses the name CAIR in any way? A Q No. And do you serve as the executive director

of any organization that uses the name CAIR in any way? A Q I don't understand your question. Do you serve as an executive director of

any other organization -A Q A Q That's called CAIR? That's called CAIR. No. Where do you work during your employment

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 77 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hours at CAIR? A Q Can you be specific? Yes. It was a bit awkward. Where is your

office located? A Q building? A Q Yes. And is your office on the first floor or At 453 New Jersey Avenue. And you have several floors in that

the second floor? A Q A Second floor. How many floors are in that building? Three, including the basement, in addition

to the basement. Q So there's a basement and then there's a

first floor where I assume the reception is? A Q A Q No. No? Yes. Describe to me the building, just so I get Good thing I asked. Bad assumption.

a visual of it. A floor. Q And when you come into that building, where The first floor, the second Basement, first floor, second floor, third

do you come into?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 78 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Mr. Abbas. BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q So, because you interrupted my sentence, I floor -A Q A Q A Q You come to the first floor. Again, try not to -First floor. Try not to anticipate my -I thought you were done. -- question. You're still doing it. It's

common practice, we all do it to save time, but I'll just ask you for the benefit of the court reporter, who excels at taking down these kind of conversations, just to slow it down a bit, okay? MR. ABBAS: regarding this. I appreciate your courtesy

Thank you. You're very welcome,

MR. YERUSHALMI:

didn't hear, where do you enter the building at 453 New Jersey? A Q On the first floor or the second floor? First floor. First floor. And when you enter the

building, what is there? A There are two entrances to the building.

It depends on which entrance you're talking about. Q Let's take one entrance at a time.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 79 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Okay. So are they next to each other on the first

floor, like a left entrance and a right entrance? A On one entrance, it's 50th Street. You go

on the steps, and the main door, and you will be faced with the elevator. the left-hand side. right-hand side. Q And this is we'll call it the 50th Street There will be an office on

There's a corridor on the

entrance; is that agreeable? A Q Yes. And this entrance is actually on 50th

Street and not on New Jersey, correct? A Q Avenue? A Q A Yes. And describe that as I come into it. A few steps, and that entrance takes you to Yes. And is there an entrance on New Jersey

one of CAIR's rooms. Q So when I enter on New Jersey Avenue, and

we'll call that the New Jersey Avenue entrance; is that agreeable? A Q Yes. When I come into the New Jersey Avenue, I

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 80 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 okay? A Q Sure. When I come in and I see an elevator, and literally walk into one of CAIR's rooms? A Q Correct. Let's go back to the 50th Street entrance,

off to the left there's an office, and there's also a corridor leading off to the right, correct? A Q Yes. Does that elevator go up and down from the

basement to the third floor? A Q A Correct. Which floors does CAIR occupy? Part of the first floor, and the entire

second floor. Q A And who if anyone occupies the basement? The basement has the garage, has storage

facilities for CAIR, and utilities. Q A Q And... Utilities. Now, I assume the garage is for CAIR and

any other tenants in the building? A Q Yes. And I ask that because yesterday Mr. Saylor

indicated that there were other tenants in the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 81 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 building. A Q A Q Correct. And that testimony was correct? Yes. Okay. And there's storage in the basement.

Is that storage dedicated to CAIR storage or is there also room made available for other tenants in the building? A Q It's mainly reserved for CAIR. "Mainly reserved for CAIR," does that

suggest that other tenants have access to the storage facility? A Sometimes the tenants leave stuff next to So it's

their cars, but they're not supposed to. mainly for CAIR. Q

Now, is the storage facility a closed

facility, or is it exposed to the garage? A It depends on -- there are different

locations that are closed. Q So when you say the basement exists of a

garage and a storage and utilities, at least as far as the garage and the storage, as is often the case, sometimes people use a garage facility for storage, correct? A Part of it, yes. It's used for storage.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 82 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And in addition to the storage of materials

in the open garage, there's also a closed section which is dedicated to storage? A In addition to the closed areas, which

means rooms, there is open space that some people put some stuff there. Q A Q Is that open space the garage area? Yes. Okay. Now, I want to refer to just the

closed rooms, the rooms for storage in the basement, okay? A Q A Q Okay. How many rooms are there for storage? I can't remember exactly. And how do you access those rooms? From

the elevator, or from the garage, or both? A Q From both. Now, when you come down the elevator into

the storage area, what do you see, or the basement, what do you see? A Q Come to the garage from... That was not a very clear question. Let's

try that again.

If I enter the 50th Street entrance,

and I go into the elevator, and I push the basement button, and I go down into the basement, when that

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 83 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 door opens, what do I see? A Q A Q You see a wall. A wall? And do I see --

It's a small space. I see a wall and a small space. Is that

one of the storage rooms, or do I go through a corridor to get to one of the storage rooms? A There's a storeroom I believe on the right,

when you open the elevator. Q So I see a wall opposite the elevator with

some room available, and if I go right, I can go into a storage room? A Yes. If you turn right, there is another

storage room. Q And is there a door to that storage room as

I go from the elevator to it? A If you turn right, there's a door to that

room that I just mentioned. Q A Q And does that door have a lock on it? I think so. Other than that storage room, are there any

other storage rooms in the basement? A Q I believe so. And how would I access them as I've come

down the elevator?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 84 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q elevator? basement. In the same way. Which direction would I go from the Now the elevator door opens in the I know if I go a little bit to the right, What other

I come to a door and a storage room.

storage rooms are there in the basement? A Once you go to the left, there are storage

rooms in the garage. Q So I go to the left coming out of the

elevator, and what do I see? A Q There's a door. There's also a door. And is there a lock

on that door? A Q looking at? A Q You're looking at the garage. And now that I'm looking at the garage, how I don't believe so. And I go through that door, and what am I

do I find one of those storage rooms that you've just identified? A Q A The utility rooms and storage rooms. How do I get to those rooms? It depends on the room. I believe you have

to have keys. all of them.

But I'm not sure if -- I did not try

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 85 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q How many rooms are we talking about could I

access, having turned left and gone into the garage? A Q Turning left? In other words, you've already described to

me that if I come out of the elevator in the basement and I go right, I will find a door that has a lock and a storage room, correct? A Q Yes. And you told me that if I go left from the

elevator, I come to a door that leads me into the garage. And in the garage, there are storage rooms Correct?

and utility rooms. A Q Yes.

And what I want to know is, now that I'm in

the garage area, how many storage rooms are available to me? A Q Between two to three, probably. And of those two or three storage rooms and

the storage room on the right, those are all dedicated to CAIR? A Q Yes. The rooms that have locks, are they all

kept locked during the day? A Q I do not know. We've covered in the basement the garage,

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 86 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the storage rooms, and the utility rooms. Is there

anything else in the basement that you know of? A Q A Q A Q There are other rooms under the stairwell. And what are those rooms used for? Also storage rooms. So they're also storage rooms. Yes. Can you access the basement through a

stairwell also? A Q Yes. Is the stairwell next to the basement or in

some other area? A Q elevator. A Q Yes. Other than the rooms that we have now Yes. Next to the basement. I meant to say next to the

I'm sorry.

discussed in the basement, are there any other rooms? A I don't have a good visualization to be

accurate, so I don't know if I counted every room. Q A Q Do you drive to the CAIR offices? Yes. And do you park in the garage that we have

just described? A Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 87 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q A Do you have a dedicated spot there? Correct. It says "Executive director"? It doesn't say that. Does it have your name on it? It doesn't. You deserve that. I don't think it does. MR. YERUSHALMI: that for him, Gadeir. BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Let's go back up to the first floor. We've You should take care of

come out of the elevator, and we have this corridor leading off to the right. corridor? A No. I said when you come from the door, Not coming What's at the end of that

there will be a corridor to your right. from the elevator. direction. Q That's correct. You're right.

It will be the opposite

So I come

through the door, and opposite me is an elevator, correct? A Q Yes. And then there's a corridor that leads off

to the right, correct?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 88 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q A Q Yes. What's at the end of that corridor? That is the entrance to rooms used by CAIR. And how were those rooms used by CAIR? I don't understand your question. Who occupies those rooms? Do you have an

office there? A Q A Q A Q CAIR uses them. Who at CAIR uses them? CAIR staff. And what are they used for? For meetings. It was my understanding that the CAIR

interns sit at the desk at the end of that corridor. Is that correct? A Q A Q my right. A It used to be. Not today? It depends on how big the crowd is. Chris Gaubatz is sitting here behind me to Do you recognize this gentleman? Yes. MR. HOROWITZ: May the record reflect he

looked over to his attorney, Ms. Al-Khalili, and they communicated nonverbally. MS. AL-KHALILI: That is incorrect.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 89 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 move on. MR. HOROWITZ: I'm going to stop this MR. HOROWITZ: been doing it. Oh, it happened. You've But you did

I've kept my mouth shut.

it with him looking at you this time. anymore.

Don't do it

Don't lie and don't do it anymore. MS. AL-KHALILI: There was absolutely no

nonverbal communication. MR. YERUSHALMI: It's on the record. Let's

deposition if you keep doing it and go to the Judge, because you did it. been doing it. I kept my mouth shut. You've If you're

I raise it respectfully.

going to lie about it, we're going to have a problem. MS. AL-KHALILI: MR. YERUSHALMI: I'm not lying about it. Ms. Al-Khalili, it is the

case, and it might be unconscious, but throughout all depositions that I've attended in this case -MS. AL-KHALILI: all depositions. MR. YERUSHALMI: -- that you've attended, And it might We're not talking about

you have a habit of making faces.

appear to be a nonverbal communication or it might just be facial gestures. But for the record, to the

extent that Mr. Horowitz has seen that, I haven't been paying attention to you so I don't know what

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 90 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 took place. MS. AL-KHALILI: I object to that because

if there was something specific that Mr. Yerushalmi had a problem with at another deposition, he should have raised it on the record and not three days later or a week later. And the last time I was even Thank you. Here's the problem. You do

present at a deposition. MR. HOROWITZ:

it constantly -- you do it frequently, nodding in agreement and so on. But in this case, the reason I

raised my voice on it is that the witness looked at you, and you looked at him, and you both nodded your head toward each other. So there's a big difference

between you responding emotionally, intellectually, and the witness looking out of the corner of his eye -- I'll let you speak, just let me finish -- with the witness. Now, I raised it not in an attacking way. You said you didn't do it. that it was done. You did. You both know

So if you're going to lie about

it, that makes me make a bigger fuss about it, so I'll raise it every time. "I'm sorry, I won't do it." MS. AL-KHALILI: did, I'm sorry. I did not lie. But if I You could have just said,

I did not nod my head, either

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 91 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 intentionally or to my knowledge unintentionally at Mr. Awad in any manner to have any direct communication with him off the record. MR. ABBAS: turn to speak. I'm sorry, Mr. Horowitz, my

Hold on. I was going to say, let's

MR. HOROWITZ: step back and start clean. MR. ABBAS:

Thank you, Mr. Horowitz.

I'll

note for the record I made eye contact with the deponent as the deponent turned to the left. was no nonverbal communication. you're referring to. MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: Not you. There

I'm not sure what

I think what we can do is --

and Mr. Yerushalmi is taking the deposition, so I think -MR. HOROWITZ: But not you. I have not

said anything about that with you. Not you. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. HOROWITZ: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q

So you're -- no.

Are we done? Done.

I think I had asked you, Mr. Awad, before

we were interrupted, if you know this gentleman behind me to my right.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 92 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Gaubatz? A Later on, I found out that this was his I've seen him before. And do you know his name to be Chris

real name or appears to be his real name. Q A And did you know him by a different name? I believe he was introduced to my knowledge

to CAIR on a different name. Q When you say "I believe," again, I just

want to know what you know or what understanding you have. And we can get into how you know things and So let me just

how you have those understandings. ask my question.

Prior to today, at any time, did

you know Chris Gaubatz by any other name? A My memory is the name that was used in our

office referring to him as probably David. Q A Q Does Dave Marshall sound familiar? Yes. And how do you know him as an intern by the

name of Dave Marshall? A That was the name that was referred to him,

whether in maybe short interaction I had with him, or when I signed the certificate of completion of his internship. Q Let's go to the interactions. What

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 93 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 interactions do you recall having with Chris Gaubatz or, as you knew him, Dave Marshall? A I do not have a memory of a specific

interaction with him. Q Do you have a memory of general

interaction? A I don't deal with interns firsthand when

they come to the office, so it might be casual interaction. Q Now, as the executive director of CAIR, you

supervise or are the boss of everybody, correct? A Q Yes. You might not directly supervise everyone

in the office, but ultimately everyone through a chain of command reports to you, correct? A Q Correct. There's no one above you other than the

board of directors, correct? A Q directors? A Q Yes. Who is the current chairman of the board of Correct. And you're a member of the board of

directors of CAIR? A Omar Zaki.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 94 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q Can you spell that, please? O-M-A-R, Z-A-K-I. Now, in your role as executive director, as

you've just testified, you don't deal with the interns directly, do you? A Q A Q Correct. You don't supervise interns, do you? I don't. You don't have many conversations with the

interns, do you? A It depends on what they need from me, if

there's a circumstance or event or a task they're assigned to to communicate with me, then that might be the occasion where they interact with me. Q But other than that, where they've needed

something from you, you don't task interns with various matters to do for CAIR? A Sometimes. But most of the time, they have So I may, I may interact with

people they report to.

someone, but in a very limited capacity or occasions. Q A Q A Q Do you have your own office at CAIR? Yes. Is there a name on that door? Yes. And what is the name on that door?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 95 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I don't look at it every day, because --

but I believe it says "Nihad Awad." Q Does it have your title, executive

director, on the door? A Q I think so. Where is your office located in the

building of CAIR? A Q On the second floor. What else is on the second floor of the

CAIR office? A Offices and workplace for most of the

employees who work there. Q Are there interns today that occupy the

second floor? A Q Yes. During the year 2008, did interns occupy

the second floor? A Q Yes. Which interns occupied the second floor?

And I ask you that because I understood from Ms. Wazir and Mr. Saylor that there were different departments, and the interns of some departments would occupy some offices and the interns of other departments would occupy other offices, correct? A Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 96 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. the record. A I cannot remember that. Q And in 2008, which is the relevant time

period for this litigation, the community outreach interns and some other groups occupied the first floor, that room toward the right down the corridor, correct? MR. ABBAS: Objection, assumes facts not in

BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Fair enough. Were there interns on the

first floor in 2008; do you recall? A Q A Maybe. Maybe not? I think for a number of years, we had

interns on the first floor and on the second floor. Q Do you recall if Dave Marshall, also known

as Chris Gaubatz, was on the second floor during the year 2008, or the first floor? A Q I can't remember. On that second floor, are there -- strike Your office has a door, and so can I assume

that you have a private office that is exclusively yours? A Q Yes. Is it a corner office, as they say?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 97 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q sides? A Q Yes. Does anyone else have an exclusive office Yes. That is to say, you have windows on two

on that second floor? A Q A Q A office. Q A Q And who is the communications director now? Ibrahim Hooper. Who else has an office exclusively occupied Yes. Who else? Are you talking about now or in the past? Now. Just the communications director has that

by themselves on the second floor? A Q A Q A Q A You mean by one person? Yes. Corey Saylor. And what is Mr. Saylor's title? Legislative director. I'm sorry? Legislative director, I think. I'm not 100

percent sure about the accuracy of the title. Q And they work for the same organization

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 98 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A that you do when you -A Q Yes. Who else has an exclusive office on the

second floor? A Q Nadhira Al-Khalili. And her title? THE WITNESS: Sorry not to have it. That's okay.

MS. AL-KHALILI:

She's the legal counsel.

BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q Anybody else have an exclusive office on

the second floor? A Q A Q A Q The accountant. And who is the accountant? Asra Rasheed. Can you spell that, please? A-S-R-A, R-A-S-H-E-E-D. A-S-R-A, first name; last name,

R-A-S-A-H-E-E-B? A Q A Q A Q No. I'll repeat the last name.

And raise your voice. R-A-S-H-E-E-D as in David. D as in David? Correct. Gotcha. Anyone else have an exclusive

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 99 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 name? office on the second floor? A I'm trying to visualize. That's to the

best of my visualization. Q Are there any offices on the second floor

that are occupied by more than one individual? A Q A department. Q A Q A Q Say that again, please. Community and communications. Community and communications. Yes. That's like a department called the Yes. And what are those offices? Part of the community and communications

community -A No. You asked me if there are offices that

are occupied by more than one person, so I started to name the first. So that office has people from the

communications and community relations. Q A Q individual? A A recently hired person. Do you need the All in the same office? Yes, two individuals. Two individuals. And who is the community

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 100 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q A If I could have it. Lauren. Could you spell that? L-A-U-R-E-N. And that's a first name or a last name? First name. Do you recall the last name? I do not know the exact last name. She

just joined us. Q I'm not good with names either. Who is the

communications individual? A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A current? Q A Yes, please. Munia Jabbar. Amina Rubin. Anyone else on the second floor? Yes. Who else? Civil rights department. And is that one office? Yes. And who occupies that office? Lawyers. Which lawyers? Gadeir Abbas. You are asking about

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 101 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B's. MR. YERUSHALMI: help us, Gadeir? MR. ABBAS: Two B's, A-R. J-A-B-B-A-R. For the record, can you Q A M-U-N-I-A, J-A-B-E-R? J-A -- I'm not sure if it's one B or two

MR. YERUSHALMI: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Anyone else?

Reshad, R-E-S-H-A-D, Statieh. THE WITNESS: MR. ABBAS: How do you spell his name? S-T-A-I-T-I-E-H. That's right.

MS. AL-KHALILI: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q yesterday. A Q A Q A Q

And indeed we had that on the record Any other attorneys? I mentioned Nadhira. She has her own office, however, correct? Yes. Anyone else in the civil rights office? Civil rights office? No.

Are there any non-lawyers in the civil

rights office? A Q No. Any other offices on the second floor?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 102 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Robert? A Robert McCaw, government affairs A Q A Yes. Which offices are remaining? Chapter development. And if I may ask the

name of the other person, can I? Q A He can volunteer it. Government affairs. MR. ABBAS: Government affairs coordinator,

coordinator. BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q A Q offices. A Q A Q Robert, M-C capital C-A-W, correct? I believe so. Now, we were in the chapter development Does this individual -No, this is a joint office. Oh. Two people at two different desks. Akin to the community and communications

office that had two different desks, right? A Q Correct. So we have the chapter development. And

who else did we have in that office? A Two. The ones I just mentioned. One is

Todd Gallinger.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 103 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 work? A Q Yes. And Mr. Gallinger does the chapter Q A Q A Q Todd, T-O-D-D? Yes. And the spelling of the last name? Gallinger, G-A-L-L-I-N-G-E-R, I believe. And Mr. Abbas nods his head in the

affirmative. MR. ABBAS: Affirmative. Good.

MR. YERUSHALMI: BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q

Mr. McCaw and Mr. Gallinger both work at

chapter development or is there another role in that office? A One does chapter development and the other

does government affairs work. Q Robert McCaw does the government affairs

development? A Q A Q Correct. Any other offices on the second floor? Yes. An office that has three people.

And what does that office serve, what

purpose does it serve? A One is community relations support. The

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 104 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 other one is enhancing the public's understanding of Islam projects. Q A I'm sorry. Enhancing...

Enhancing the public's understanding of

Islam projects. Q A Anything else? Then multimedia coordinator. Again, the

title is descriptive. Q And can I assume that the three people that

occupy this office, one deals with community relations, one deals with the enhancing the understanding of Islam project, and one deals with multimedia issues? A Q Correct. I don't need the names of those three Any other offices on the second floor? Office or open space?

individuals. A Q

Reception.

We've been talking about closed rooms until

now, correct? A Again, trying to visualize. And to the

best of my visualization, I gave you what I can imagine. Q So in addition to these closed offices,

there's also a reception area? A Yes.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 105 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q And that's like many reception areas, a

desk and phones as people come into the second floor? A Q A Q Yes. What's on the third floor? Right now it's occupied by a tenant. So the third floor is occupied by a single

tenant in its entirety? A Q Yes. Now, I want to jump back to -- strike that.

On the second floor, you nicely described the offices that you recall, and a reception area. Are there any

other desks or tables where people other than the ones we've described sit during the day? A Q A Q look like? A Q office? A Q It's an open space. So on the second floor, you have reception, Can you be precise? Is it an open space, or is it also an Yes. And what are those? That is the internship training area. And what does that internship training area

various offices with closed doors, some with single individuals, some with multiple, and then you have

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 106 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 this open area where the interns are trained? A Q Right. Beyond their training, do they occupy that

area to do their internship work? A Q Yes. Going back to the year 2008, and again, to

the best of your recollection, on the second floor, were there closed offices for Mr. Ibrahim Hooper? A Q A Q in 2008? A Q I believe so. And he was serving the same role in 2008 as When you say "closed office"... He has his own office, correct? Yes. I just want to know, was that also the case

he does today for CAIR? A Q Saylor. A Q Yes. And same question with regard to Corey Did he have his own office in 2008? I can't remember. Was Mr. Saylor's role the same in 2008 as

it is today? A Q I'm not 100 percent sure. And legal counsel in 2008, was it also

Ms. Al-Khalili?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 107 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q A Q I can't remember. Was the accountant Asra Rasheed in 2008? I'm not sure. Do you recall individuals other than

Ibrahim Hooper, Corey Saylor, Ms. Al-Khalili, and Mr. Rasheed and yourself occupying a single office in 2008? A Q I can't be sure. Where was Khadija Athman's office, if she And Khadija Athman is spelled, for

had one in 2008?

the record, K-H-A-D-I-J-A, last name A-T-H-M-A-N. A If I'm not mistaken, she was in the civil

rights room. Q It's now occupied by Gadeir Abbas, Munia

Jabbar and Reshad Statieh? A Q A Q I believe so. Was Khadija Athman an attorney? I'm not sure. I know she studied law.

But you don't know if she got a degree or

passed the bar? A Q I'm not certain. The office that's occupied by community and

communications, was it also occupied by community and communications in 2008? A I can't remember.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 108 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2008? A Q I believe so. And the office is now occupied by chapter Did that also Q The civil rights office that you've

described today, was it also in existence in 2008? Not the occupants, just the office. A I remember Khadija was in that room. But

to the best of my recollection, I can't remember. Q A Q Khadija Athman? Yes. And she was in charge of the civil rights

department in 2008? A Q I can't remember. Was she involved in civil rights work in

development and government affairs. exist in 2008? A Q What do you mean?

Did the physical office also exist and was

it used for chapter development and government affairs? A Q A Q A I can't remember. Do you use a computer at CAIR? Yes. And who owns that computer? The organization.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 109 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q A Q A Q CAIR? Yes. And is that a desktop computer? Yes. Do you have a laptop computer? Yes. And is the laptop owned by the CAIR

organization? A Q Yes. When you use the desktop computer, how do

you access your CAIR e-mail? A Q A Q Can you be more specific? Do you have a CAIR e-mail address? Yes. And when you want to go to your saved

e-mail or your received e-mail, how do you access it? Do you go to your hard drive or do you go into a network? A To the extent that you know. I don't know. I don't know the

technicalities. Q user name? A Q A Yes. Do you have a separate password? Yes. For your desktop computer, do you have a

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 110 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q To access your desktop? I'm sorry, there was a noise. Let's start that over. To simply get into

your desktop computer when it's on, not into other servers, do you have a special user name or password? A Q Yes. And do you have one, a single password, or

do you have both a user name and a password? A I have different user names and passwords

for different functions. Q So when you turn on your computer, in order

to get beyond a blank screen, essentially, you have to input a user name and a password? A Q Yes. Do you know if your user name and password

are unique to you? A Q A Q A Q Yes. You do know? Yes. And are they in fact unique to you? Yes. So once you input your user name and

password to access your desktop computer, how do you access your e-mails that you've received? A I'm trying to understand your question.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 111 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Q Do you have to input your user name and

password again to access your e-mails, or are they right there on your desktop computer? A I have a user name and a password to access And I have a user name and a password Both are different.

the computer.

to access my CAIR e-mail. Q A Q A

To access your CAIR... E-mails. They're different.

Two different user name and passwords? Yes, one for the security of the computer

and one for the security of the e-mail. Q Now, we understand from Mr. Saylor that

there is a shared drive, and architecturally, as it were, below the shared drive or above the shared drive there are segmented folders that mirror in some respect the various departments like community outreach, government relations. MR. ABBAS: Is that correct?

Objection, vague.

I'm not a technician, and I cannot answer

this question on a technical matter. BY MR. YERUSHALMI: Q drive? A Q Yes, we have shared drive. Do you know whether your e-mails are on the Are you familiar with the CAIR shared

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 112 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? A IT person. Q And if you don't have difficulty, how do I usually -- if I have difficulty, call the hard drive of your desktop or on the CAIR network? A Q I don't know. And this shared drive, how do you access

you access it? A There should be an icon on the desktop. I

myself had difficulties. Q A Q You do have difficulties? Yes. And so when you click on this icon, you

have to input a user name and a password to access the shared drive? A Q A Q A I don't know. You don't know? I don't know. Do you access -Because I have to go on the computer and

remember the steps, what would require what. Q Do you use the shared drive often in your

work for CAIR? A Q No. When you do successfully access the shared

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 113 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 drive, do you have access to all of the folders on the shared drive or just to a subset of folders? A I do not know. I usually ask the

technician and I give them access to my computer remotely and he does it. Q Those of us at our age don't have the

facility with computers and networks that some of the younger folks do. A We must be the same. MR. YERUSHALMI: It's now 12:34. Mr. Horowitz, I'm done.

I know your colleague had a luncheon

appointment at 1 p.m. MR. HOROWITZ: MR. YERUSHALMI: Yes. And we're scheduled to

begin Ms. Al-Khalili's deposition at the conclusion of Mr. Awad's. everyone. proceed. And so I'll leave it open to

I'm flexible as to how you want to If you would like to ask questions for a

half an hour, then break at 1, we'll take an hour break. Let me just take the time to thank you for And then we can reconvene

your deposition testimony.

after lunch for Ms. Al-Khalili's deposition. MR. ABBAS: on questioning now? MR. HOROWITZ: I want to hear what people Sounds good. Are you planning

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 114 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 finished. MR. ABBAS: a half hour -MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: want to start now? MR. YERUSHALMI: Let's do a half hour and About an hour and a half. You I think so. If you have about have to say. I've got about an hour and a half. Do

people want to break? MS. AL-KHALILI: Let's go ahead and get

Let's go ahead and do it.

break for lunch, because I will have to eat at some point, otherwise I'll get hypoglycemic. had a lunch appointment at 1:00. Also Marty

Let's go a half

hour, break for lunch, then pick up with Ms. Al-Khalili. MR. ABBAS: I just want to remind you of

the conversation we had yesterday regarding Mr. Saylor's deposition. For the record, at one

point in the deposition, you stood up, leaned over, raised your voice. And I want to remind you,

Mr. Horowitz, that whatever it is that you're going to be asking Mr. Awad, that it's your obligation to do so in a respectful manner, to not raise your voice, and definitely do not make physical gestures towards Mr. Awad.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 115 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I don't anticipate there being a problem, Mr. Horowitz, but I just wanted to remind you of that issue from yesterday. MR. YERUSHALMI: Just for the record, since

I was here and Mr. Abbas has characterized an event yesterday to which I was not a participant, just an observer, there was a point in time when Mr. Horowitz did stand up. It appeared to me that he was standing

up for one of two reasons; one, to emphasize his point, or two, to stretch his legs. clear to me. It did not appear to me that he was acting in an aggressive or disrespectful manner. simply voicing a response to an answer. take issue or not with that response. He was And you can But I don't It really wasn't

think it would be fair to characterize Mr. Horowitz, who seems to me to be a gentleman of the highest character, as having acted in an aggressive or uncivil way. MR. ABBAS: Whatever the case may be, Mr.

Horowitz, the expectation is that you will be polite and respectful to the deponent. MR. HOROWITZ: I disagree with your Your witness

characterization of my conduct.

gratuitously and I think in incredibly poor taste

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 116 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conclusion. A Can you restate the question, please? likened his organization to Reverend Martin Luther King, who as you know took a nonviolent approach to life and gave his life to nonviolence. And people in

this room such as Mr. Garbus was in the South, risking his life when Goodman, Schwerner, and Chaney were murdered on behalf of nonviolence. So to equate

your organization with Martin Luther King is offensive. The quote that I cited to your witness to help educate him was this. When approached by a

student who attacked Zionism in 1969, Dr. King responded, "When people criticize Zionists, they mean Jews. You're talking anti-Semitism."

EXAMINATION BY COUNSEL FOR THE GAUBATZ DEFENDANTS BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Sir, do you contend that your organization

was damaged because all documents defendants took from your office have confidential value? MR. ABBAS: Objection, calls for a legal

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you contend that all documents that

Chris Gaubatz took from your CAIR office have confidential value?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 117 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conclusion. A A MR. ABBAS: Same objection.

The documents that were stolen from CAIR

are confidential, and they compromised the organization and caused damage. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q I'm not going to argue with your Our view is

characterization of the word "stolen." different.

We think that a crime was committed and

he collected evidence of a crime and refused to destroy it. But I'm not going to stop you from

expressing your views as you characterize your answer, although I could. Number two, do you believe that the documents obtained by Chris Gaubatz damaged CAIR by providing insight into methods and processes utilized by CAIR to achieve competitive excellence in CAIR's industry? MR. ABBAS: Objection, calls for a legal

Assumes facts not in the record. I believe the documents that were stolen by

Mr. Gaubatz damaged the organization, compromised its ability to compete and counter defamation, stereotypes, hate crimes, and discrimination against American Muslims, and damaged its ability to counter attempts to undermine American Muslims.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 118 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did you actually see -- that's a general

belief, but did you actually see damaging effects from what Chris Gaubatz allegedly did? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

I believe exposing CAIR's secrets,

confidential documents that CAIR was in possession to the general public and competitors of our organization, damaged the organization from effectively doing its civil rights and public advocacy work. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q And more specifically, give an example of

how you were damaged. A For example, a hate group was trying to

undermine our minority, the Muslim community, or our civil rights organization. It gives them an idea on

how we counter these hate campaigns to undermine the American Muslim community. And that exposes my

organization to our opponents and our competitors. It damages our ability to be competitive and more effective in those circumstances. Q Specifically tell me what time when you

were less effective because of what Chris Gaubatz did.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 119 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please. Compound. A A MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

For example, Pamela Geller, a known hate

activist in America to our community, has been conducting anti-Muslim hate campaigns. And we tried

to counter it with a more civil discourse in public. And I believe the documents that were stolen from CAIR and shared with the public has given people like hate groups such as ACT! For America and what have you the ability to know how we do our work and how we counter these campaigns. So in a way, it damaged our ability to be more effective and put forth a more peaceful message about Islam and American Muslims. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Now, in terms of damage to your

organization, isn't it really true that nothing Chris Gaubatz did caused damage to your organization and the real damage was caused by the revelations that came out of the Holy Land Foundation trial, 2007, 2008? MR. ABBAS: Vague. Objection, argumentative.

Calls for a legal conclusion.

I don't understand the question. MR. HOROWITZ: Can you read it back,

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 120 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please? (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: Restating my objection and A (Requested portion of record read.) I disagree with you.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Isn't it true that on August 7th, 2007, an

FBI agent testified at the Holy Land Foundation trial that CAIR was "Listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine committee," and that it had received money from the foundation, and that that also was in conflict with testimony you had given to Congress? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Assumes

facts not in the record. the deponent. A

The document is not before

So what's your question? MR. HOROWITZ: Can you read it back,

adding that it was compound. A The theft of CAIR's documents illegally, in

my view, the spread of documents and publishing a book that lists innuendos and stereotypes and fabrications to sell a book was widely distributed and received publicity by anti-Muslim outlets, by extremist media outlets. And that, we believe, put

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 121 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A the organization in a false light, misrepresented its reality. And there was a big machine, apparently, behind it to undermine the organization. disagree with your statement. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You do agree in August of 2007, an FBI So I

agent did testify that CAIR was listed as a member of the Muslim Brotherhood's Palestine Committee, right? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

I don't know. MR. ABBAS: The document is not in front of

the deponent. A I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Have you ever heard about Laura Burns'

testimony at the Holy Land Foundation trial? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

I don't have exact understanding the way

you are presenting what appears to be to you facts. MR. HOROWITZ: question, please. responsive. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: Restating my objection. Asked Can you read back the

Because your answer was not

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 122 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A model. and answered. A Yes, in a vague manner.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did you hear in a vague manner that she

looked at a document from 1994 and tied CAIR and the IAP and the HLF together under the Palestine Committee of the Muslim Brotherhood? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. The

document is not before the deponent. A We are a civil rights organization. We are And

the most known Muslim civil rights organization.

traditionally, civil rights organizations do not have the best relations all the time with the FBI. And I

restate what we always say, that Martin Luther King was not viewed favorably by the FBI during his time. And we are as a major civil rights organization, we are in those footsteps of Martin Luther King and other key and historic civil rights leaders in this nation. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So you support Dr. King's belief that

nonviolence is the only answer to political struggle? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

Martin Luther King is my hero and my role And that's why I'm so proud to be one of the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 123 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 leaders of the civil rights movement as a historic figure. He serves as a role model to me and that's

why I'm in his footsteps. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q I'm really anxious to hear, you don't have So

to read it back, your response to my question.

you endorse without reservation the Reverend Martin Luther King's belief that all political struggle should be accomplished with complete nonviolence? MR. ABBAS: and answered. A I respect Martin Luther King. And I Objection, relevance. Asked

believe in his values. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So you endorse his approach that political

struggle should never be met with violence? MR. ABBAS: and answered. A freedoms. We are proud Americans. We enjoy the Objection, relevance. Asked

And we collectively as a society defend And we believe in the values of

minority rights.

Martin Luther King and others who have struggled. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So you do not accept nonviolence as the

only approach to political struggle?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 124 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A MR. ABBAS: prior testimony. A Objection, mischaracterizes Asked and answered. Our

Relevance.

I don't know what you are driving at.

organization is well-respected, nationally and internationally. This is a critical time in our Minorities have suffered.

history as a nation.

Civil rights of minorities are not usually popular. I live in this time. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A Q Did you ever speak with Coretta King? Excuse me? Did you ever speak with Coretta King? MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Dr. King's widow. I guess not. Sir, Objection.

Mr. Awad, in October of 1993, did you attend a meeting in Philadelphia together with representatives of HLF, IAP, the Al Aqsa Fund, and other organizations? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I don't recall that.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You don't recall attending that? MR. ABBAS: and answered. Objection, relevance. Asked

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 125 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 answered. Relevance. A That's correct. A I don't recall that.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q When you say you don't recall that, are you

saying sitting here right now, you have no memory of attending that meeting? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Now, you were asked that same exact

question on October 22nd, 2003, when you were questioned in the case of Stanley Boim versus the Quranic Literacy Institute; do you recall that? A Q Vaguely. And at that time, your answer to the

question was not an unequivocal negative as today, but instead an "I don't think so." It was then

clarified to, "You said you don't think so," and you answered, "I don't remember." What has changed between now and 2003 that you now distinctly remember your lack of presence at that meeting when you didn't remember one way or the other on October 22nd, 2003? MR. ABBAS: Relevance. Objection, compound. Asked and

Assumes facts not in the

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 126 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it. MR. ABBAS: Read the whole thing. record. A The deponent doesn't have -I have to see that deposition again. MR. HOROWITZ: give counsel a copy. Can we mark one page. I'll

I'll take a five-minute break

to use the restroom so you can read this page carefully. MR. ABBAS: to be on the record. MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: No, he's not. If he's reading it, it's going

Then he's not reading it until

we're back on the record. MR. YERUSHALMI: MR. ABBAS: Stay on the record.

We're staying on the record? Go right ahead.

MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS:

You can read it.

(CSP Exhibit 10 was marked for identification and retained by counsel.) MR. ABBAS: Lee, could you read back if he

was asking for a particular portion of the transcript? MR. YERUSHALMI: No, he just said to review

(Requested portion of record read.) MR. YERUSHALMI: How many pages are there

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 127 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Relevance. Relevance. A question. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Compound. to that exhibit? MR. ABBAS: Just one. Can you read back my last

MR. HOROWITZ:

Asked and answered. You want me to read the whole thing or just

the marked ones? BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q asked you. Why don't you answer the question that I Do you need it read back again? We'll

read it back as many times as you need to. Eventually you will need to answer it. THE WITNESS: Read the question, please.

(Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: I'm going to restate the prior

objections I've made to this question. A I don't see any difference between what I

said then and what I say now. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you remember whether or not you were at

the meeting, yes or no? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

This is the fifth or sixth time you've

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 128 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 shoulder. him. asked this question. A I don't remember the meeting.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You don't remember if you were there? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered. He mumbled. I couldn't hear

MR. HOROWITZ:

To ask him to clarify what he said -MR. ABBAS: Do you want to read back

Mr. Awad's answer. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. HOROWITZ: marked next in order. MR. ABBAS: Is this the exhibit? That's the exhibit. I have a document I'll have

MR. HOROWITZ:

(CSP Exhibit 11 was marked for identification and retained by counsel.) BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Sir, have you ever seen this screenshot of

the CAIR website before? MR. ABBAS: of the document. MR. HOROWITZ: You'll have to look over his Hold on. I don't have a copy

I don't have a copy. MR. ABBAS: Will we get a copy of this

exhibit before the end of this deposition?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 129 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Okay. A able to? MR. YERUSHALMI: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Have you ever seen this screenshot before? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Also the Sure. MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: We'll do the best we can.

Mr. Yerushalmi, will you be

witness hasn't reviewed it yet, as I haven't. There's a page 2 as well. I don't remember.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You see a little section on the lower right Lower right side. We're on the

side that says "Help for victims"?

You're looking in the middle and upper. second page. MR. ABBAS:

You're on the second page?

While he's reviewing, that was a document you

introduced as an exhibit in Raabia Wazir's deposition as well; is that correct, Mr. Horowitz? MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: Right.

I believe the one you

introduced in Ms. Wazir's deposition was a single page; is that right? MR. HOROWITZ: BY MR. HOROWITZ: I don't know.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 130 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Foundation. Counseling. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you recognize this document as being a A Q You've had a lot of time to look at this Now that we've talked

while I was in the restroom.

about silly things, do you now see the section of that document that talks about help for victims? A Q Yes. Do you see that two of the organizations

listed are Islamic charities? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

What do you mean by "Islamic charities"?

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q I don't know what I mean. What's the name

of the two organizations listed? Foundation, is that one of them? MR. ABBAS:

Holy Land

Objection, relevance. Global Relief Crisis

American Red Cross.

Holy Land Foundation.

page from the CAIR website? MR. ABBAS: and answered. A It has CAIR's logo and CAIR's name. Objection, relevance. Asked

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Has anyone ever shown you this page before?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 131 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A Q This document before? I don't remember. Is it your understanding that in September Objection, relevance.

of 2001, CAIR had posted on its web page three links to help the victims of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Assumes

facts not in the record. A

Calls for speculation.

What's your question? MR. HOROWITZ: First of all, if counsel

keeps making relevance objections and other ones like asked and answered when it's the first time I've asked it, I have no hesitation in stopping this deposition, going to a Federal Judge, telling her what you've done. You know better. We've talked

about this in the past.

I know this is your boss and I appreciate

you want to do a good job for him. that.

But he then constantly asks for the questions to be read back, and it's more disruptive than I can just accept. MR. ABBAS: For the record, I'm making as If you're asking me to

brief objections as possible.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 132 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 speed up the time in which I'm making the objections, I'm happy to do that. But I'm entitled to make my

brief objections as you are entitled to ask your irrelevant questions. MR. HOROWITZ: But we talked about this

at -- was it the Wazir deposition? MR. ABBAS: I believe so. If you're going to be

MR. HOROWITZ:

objecting to a line of questioning as irrelevant, that's fine. You can do it. Generally, the

objections made at Federal depositions in some other states, actually, many of the states, are to form of the question or things we can fix now, because you can always object at trial to their introduction. Clearly, you can assert work product or privilege when appropriate. If you think things are abusive or getting out of hand, you have a right to stop the deposition and go in front of the Judge and raise it. your options. MR. ABBAS: I think that the line of But I appreciate I do Those are

questioning is clearly irrelevant.

the demeanor which with you're asking it. appreciate that.

But the scheduling order is clear. I understand

It allows for objections to be made.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 133 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 was taken.) your sense of what would make sense for objections. But the scheduling order does not say you can make this category of objections and not that category of objections. MR. HOROWITZ: It's just applying the

Federal rules and the case law in this district. MR. ABBAS: So I'm going to make relevance

objections when the question is not relevant. MR. HOROWITZ: read back, please. MR. YERUSHALMI: we break for an hour? MR. HOROWITZ: MR. YERUSHALMI: Sure. We'll return at 2:06. It's 1:04. Can I suggest Can we have the question

(Whereupon, at 1:07 p.m., a lunch recess

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 134 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the record. A MR. HOROWITZ: question, please. (The record was read as follows: "QUESTION: Is it your understanding that AFTERNOON SESSION (2:18 p.m.) Can we read back the last

in September of 2001, CAIR had posted on its web page three links to help the victims of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks?") MR. ABBAS: and answered. A I restate my objections. Asked

Relevance.

I don't remember that.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Has anyone ever brought to your attention

the fact that CAIR's website had links to the Holy Land Foundation where people click on the website to help the victims of the World Trade Center and Pentagon attacks? MR. ABBAS: Relevance. I'm not certain. Objection, assumes facts not in

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you find it personally offensive if CAIR

on or about September 17th, 2001 -- or September 24th, 2001, sorry, had links on its website to donate

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 135 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 document. A testimony. A to help the victims of 9/11 with the money going to the Global Relief Foundation? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Vague.

No, actually I'm proud that American

Muslims, as you say there, that they tried to help the victims. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q And you think supporting Hamas helps the

victims of 9/11? MR. ABBAS: Objection. Misstates prior

Argumentative.

Relevance.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You don't dispute that the HLF has been

convicted in a US court of being a funder of Hamas? Do you dispute that fact? MR. ABBAS: Are you talking to me now? No.

MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS: Relevance.

Objection, misstates the

You're jumping from one issue to another.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q number 2. A Q I don't understand your question. Oh. That's fine. Answer my jumpy question

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 136 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 relevance. A No, I don't. But my answer was very clear MR. HOROWITZ: Read it back, please. I

think it was real easy to understand. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: the document at issue. A I'm saying that American Muslims as being Objection, compound. Misstates

part of this great nation was attacked on 9/11, and American Muslims responded to help the victims. MR. HOROWITZ: question, please. Can you read back the Can

You might not have heard it.

you read it loudly so he hears it. A answered. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q No, you didn't, sir. I'm going to have it Sir, I understood the question, and I

read back so when I go to the Judge and say that you're being deliberately evasive, I've given you every opportunity to show that I'm wrong and that I'm not a nice person. So please read it back and let's

see if he wants to amend his answer to be responsive. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: Same objections. Vague,

that American Muslims helped the victims on 9/11.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 137 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A And if you dispute that, you have a dispute with the American Muslim community. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So you think the American Muslim community

thinks that by donating to the Holy Land Foundation they were helping the victims of 9/11? MR. ABBAS: for speculation. A The organization then was legal, was Objection, relevance. Calls

operating, and was trusted by American Muslims, and it was one of apparently, as you indicate, among different relief organizations who helped. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So in 2001, September 24th, 2001, you had

no idea that Hamas supported suicide bombings in Israel? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

Only going back to the same document that And it showed that American Muslim

you showed me.

leaders including myself met with President Bush. That was an important fact, to remind the public that American Muslims are part of the nation. They were

among the victims, and they were among the first responders. And attacks on the Muslim community is

an attack on America.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 138 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 objection. question. A BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Let me explain to you, sir, that Hamas is a

group that is supported by a portion of the American Muslim community. You included, right? Objection.

MR. ABBAS: No. MR. ABBAS: Argumentative.

Objection, relevance.

Assumes facts not in the record. I just want to ask a When you object on

MR. YERUSHALMI:

Just for edification.

the grounds of facts not in the record, what does that objection mean, to be clear? Because this is a

discovery deposition, and none of the facts are on the record until they're put into the record, either at the deposition or subsequently. So I just want to understand that You've made it several times. MR. ABBAS: We can read back his question.

But his question starts with a characterization of a fact. And that characterization of the fact is not

in a document that we have reviewed or anything like that. So that's what the objection is, that there is

a basis for the question that is not in front of the deponent or has been previously referred to. MR. YERUSHALMI: Well, if he's asking a

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 139 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 question that refers to a document and it's not before him, the deponent can obviously respond if he doesn't have the document. question. Or it can be a vague

If he's characterizing the fact that it's

in some document but he doesn't reference the document, again, the question can be vague. be irrelevant in your mind. But I just don't understand -- I just want to understand the objection, because you've made it throughout Mr. Horowitz's questioning, what it means to say that a fact is not in the record at a deposition during discovery. MR. ABBAS: So like I said, if he's asking It could

a question that the introduction to that question is a fact that has not been asserted or demonstrated or been alluded to in anything that has been presented to the deponent, the question is assuming facts that are not in the record. objection. MR. YERUSHALMI: that's fine. Go ahead. I don't understand. But And that's the basis of that

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Is it true that in 2006, you made the

statement that you no longer support Hamas? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 140 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A I see -BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q question. A Then you'll get a straight answer from me. You don't get it. You get to answer my A A I don't know what you mean.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Well, making a statement means verbally And 2006 is a year. So my

saying something.

question is, did you verbally say something in 2006? And then I quoted the words, "I no longer support Hamas." MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Compound.

I need to see the statement that you're

referring to. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q I'm glad you need to see a statement, but You either remember One

you don't get that option.

making that statement or you do not remember. way or the other.

Did you make that statement, yes,

no, or you don't recall. MR. ABBAS: Objection, argumentative.

I asked you to produce the evidence so that

I don't remember. Q Did you ever say that you reject suicide

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 141 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A bombings? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

You just -- you're throwing a statement

like this that doesn't have any context. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q statement? A Q I did not give you that answer. Okay. Then you have made such a statement? Objection. So the answer is you've never made such a

MR. ABBAS:

I did not give you that answer either.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q question. A hearing -MR. ABBAS: Hold on. Just for the record, I Okay. Well, why don't you answer my

And my question is -I can't make a conclusion without

MR. YERUSHALMI:

believe Mr. Abbas has adopted a habit that I've developed over 30 years of practice, that when I want to make an objection, I'll sometimes put my hand up so the deponent will not jump on my objection. Unfortunately, the deponent is actually looking around your hand. And I understand his desire to

answer a question of that sort.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 142 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A analyst. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Let's talk about some of the statements A A But just, again, for the record, you might want to just advise your client to sit tight until you've made your objection. MR. ABBAS: Please.

Mr. Horowitz, if you ask me do I reject If you ask me do I make

suicide bombing, I say I do.

that statement, I don't recall, because you put it out of context. You don't give me a date, you don't But yes, I reject suicide

give me a reference. bombing.

And that satisfies the answer.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you reject firing rockets into Israel? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I'm not the political or military analyst

to answer your question. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q So you have no opinion on that because

you're not a military analyst? MR. ABBAS: Objection, asked and answered.

I'm not a military analyst or a political

made in the Holy Land trial that may or may not have affected CAIR in the way you accused the Gaubatz

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 143 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Relevance. A I don't understand your question. defendants of hurting CAIR. But before that, let me

read you something and ask you if you agree or disagree with this. Is it true that when CAIR was named a co-conspirator, unindicted, in the Holy Land trial, that many anti-Muslims and right wing Internet groups who had been foreseeably hateful published that information in an effort to hurt CAIR? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Compound.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q I'll read you an entire sentence. You tell

me if this is true or not true.

This is with respect

to CAIR being named an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial. "While the reaction

from many anti-Muslim and right wing Internet groups has been foreseeably hateful, many of the main traditional media outlets have reported on CAIR's inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator." Do you agree or disagree with that? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Relevance.

I don't understand the statement.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q That statement makes no sense to you?

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 144 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A Q States? MR. ABBAS: Many years. Objection. Relevance. Not much. How long have you lived in the United

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A Q A Q A Q A Q right? A Q Yes. You met with President Bush without a I'm sorry? Many years. What does that mean? Over 25 years, maybe. How long have you been speaking English? I don't know. More than a decade? Yes. And you speak at public events in English,

translator; is that right? A Q again. Yes. So I'm going to read you the sentence And I need to understand what it is you don't

understand what this sentence means. A Q Can you give it to me in writing? No. "While the reaction from the many

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 145 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Relevance. A I don't understand what are you driving at. anti-Muslim and right wing Internet groups has been foreseeably hateful, many of the main traditional media outlets have reported on CAIR's inclusion as an unindicted co-conspirator." Is that true or not true? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Compound.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q It doesn't matter whether you understand What I am driving at is that But that's something

what I am driving at.

your case is not a viable case. I'll present to the Judge.

Your job is to answer my

questions truthfully, if you can. A Q I think we have a great case, by the way. Then answer my question. Since you're so

confident, go ahead and answer my question, showing that you're not afraid to tell the truth under oath. MR. ABBAS: I'm going to remind the

deponent to await my objections prior to the answering. Please let the deponent finish his answer

prior to asking a question. MR. HOROWITZ: Would you instruct him to be

responsive to my questions? MR. ABBAS: Why don't you ask a question,

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 146 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 true: Relevance. A Not true. and he'll answer after I make objections, if I do. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Sir, is it true or not true, the mere

publication of CAIR being named as an unindicted co-conspirator impresses upon the typical member of the American public that CAIR is involved in criminal activity? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague, compound.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Not true? Tell me if this is true or not

"The negative reaction by the American public

to the naming of CAIR as an unindicted co-conspirator in the Holy Land Foundation trial can be seen in the decline of membership rates and donations." True or not true? MR. ABBAS: speculation. A Objection. Vague. Calls for Compound.

Relevance.

Well, I disagree with the statement.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A It's not true? Why do you disagree?

It's just making conclusions without --

without evidence. Q Sir, this is a paper, a legal paper that

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 147 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A CAIR's attorneys filed in the US District Court in front of Judge Fish which was ultimately referred to a Magistrate. I'm not sure if Judge Fish was the But in any case, this

Judge or a Magistrate Judge.

is what your counsel wrote to him, trying to get their name taken off the list. So let me ask you some questions now about what the Judge said in his decision. It's Judge

Fish, and it's Magistrate Solis or actually District Judge Solis who made the following findings: "The

government has produced ample evidence to establish the associations of CAIR, ISNA, and NAIT with the Holy Land Foundation, HLF; the Islamic Association for Palestine, IAP; and with Hamas." And in so

finding, he left the name of CAIR on that list. Were you aware of that finding? MR. ABBAS: Vaguely. Objection, relevance.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q And do you think the publication of that

finding damaged CAIR? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Isn't it true that the evidence at the Holy

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 148 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Land Foundation trial and the conviction led the FBI in 2009 to end their relationship here in the District of Columbia with CAIR? MR. ABBAS: speculation. A Objection, calls for

Relevance.

I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you know whether -- do you know why the

FBI ended its relationship with CAIR in 2009? MR. ABBAS: speculation. A Objection, calls for

Relevance.

They sent us a letter.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A Q A Q That's it? Yes. Do you remember what the letter said? I can't remember exactly. Did you ever ask anybody at the FBI why You just got a letter?

they cut you off? A Q A Q Yes. Who did you ask? I don't remember the name. What did they say? MR. ABBAS: Objection --

I don't remember.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 149 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the record. MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A CAIR member was supposed to get an award -- relevance.

from Senator Barbara Boxer and publicity led her to withdraw the issuance of that award, correct? MR. ABBAS: for speculation. A Objection, relevance. Calls

Vague.

I don't remember the details of that case.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Isn't it true that the board and Corey

Saylor met and came up with an attack plan to go after Barbara Boxer and the debate was whether you would try to reconcile with her or "take her out"? MR. ABBAS: speculation. A Objection, vague. Calls for

Relevance.

Is the word "attack" your word, or that's a

CAIR document? BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Isn't that what CAIR used? Aren't those

Mr. Saylor's words, "take her out"? MR. ABBAS: Objection, assumes facts not in

There's no document before deponent.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You have to answer my question, regardless

of his coaching with his objections.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 150 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A A please. (Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: speculation. as well. A I don't remember that. Objection, calls for A Excuse me? MR. HOROWITZ: Read back the question,

I'll add that the question was compound

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did Council on American-Islamic Relations

Inc. file a tax return in 2007? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did Council on American-Islamic Relations

Action Network file a tax return in 2007? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did Council on American-Islamic Relations

Action Network file a tax return in 2008? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I'm not sure.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did Council on American-Islamic Relations

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 151 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 2008? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. conclusion. A I'm not sure of the details. A nonfiling. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q And was it because you didn't file tax A Foundation file a tax return in 2008? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I'm not sure.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did Council on American-Islamic Relations

Action Network ever lose its corporate standing? MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q A Q Did it ever have its charter revoked? I did not understand you. Did you ever get your corporate status Objection, relevance. Vague.

revoked because you didn't file tax returns? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague.

Yes, we got our license revoked for

returns for 2007 and 2008? MR. ABBAS: Objection, calls for a legal

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Why were tax returns not filed in 2007 and

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 152 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A well. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Who at your organization, CAIR Foundation, this. A A My answer was I was not sure, so why are

you asking me the same question? BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Because we know that you know the answer to You're being evasive. You mean I'm lying? MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q close. MR. ABBAS: argumentative. I object. You're being I would say evasive and lying are very Hold on. Everybody knows that.

Ask questions. Actually, I'm being honest.

MR. HOROWITZ: MR. ABBAS:

Mr. Awad, I'll ask the same as

is responsible right now for filing tax returns? MR. ABBAS: Objection.

Repeat the question. MR. HOROWITZ: Read it back, please.

(Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

The accountant and CPA.

BY MR. HOROWITZ:

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 153 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 conclusion. A A Days? MR. ABBAS: Yes. Objection, relevance. Q By the way, do you know the name Morris

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did CAIR to your knowledge ever have an

attorney-client relationship with Morris Days? MR. ABBAS: for a legal conclusion. A I don't know. Objection, relevance. Calls

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did any attorney working for CAIR ever

represent Morris Days, to your knowledge? MR. ABBAS: Relevance. I don't know. MR. ABBAS: BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q You don't know one way or the other? MR. ABBAS: What was your question? MR. HOROWITZ: Can you read it back? Let me finish my objections. Vague. Objection, calls for a legal

(Requested portion of record read.) MR. ABBAS: I'm objecting, vague, calls for

a legal conclusion, relevance.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 154 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A A I don't remember.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q To your knowledge, did any attorney for

CAIR ever work with Morris Days on any of the legal cases that he handled? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Relevance.

I don't remember.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Because we got a privilege log from the

attorneys for your side that listed a lot of documents relating to Morris Days as attorney-client privileged. And so my question is, was there any

time that you're aware of where any of the attorneys in the employ of your nonprofit represented Morris Days? MR. ABBAS: for a legal conclusion. A Objection, relevance. Vague. Calls

I can't remember.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q If they didn't come through the attorneys

at CAIR, how would CAIR in Washington, either CAIR Foundation or CAIR Action Network, have gotten files relating to Morris Days? different state. MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Compound. Because he worked out of a

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 155 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A Relevance. A Calls for speculation. I'm not sure.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Days files? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Did you ever look through any of the Morris

I don't remember.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did any of your attorneys ever look through

the Morris Days files? MR. ABBAS: Objection. To the extent that

my client's answer would involve attorney-client communications, I'm instructing my witness not to answer. MR. HOROWITZ: tell you why. Actually, you can't. I'll

First of all, it would be improper for

either of you, and I'm sure you didn't, or any of the attorneys at CAIR, to have looked at the Morris Days files. They're attorney-client files belonging to The fact that he's

Morris Days and those clients.

not a real attorney doesn't change the fact that they thought he was, which creates a privilege. MR. ABBAS: misunderstanding. MR. HOROWITZ: Go ahead. I think we have a

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 156 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A MR. ABBAS: "Morris Days files." It's unclear what you mean by So why don't we back up. Why

don't you explain what you mean by the "Morris Days files." MR. HOROWITZ: I'm only asking about the

files that came from another CAIR office that related to Morris Days's work there. Nothing in terms of you

and Mr. Yerushalmi, you know, dealing with the legal case. I don't care about that. I care about the

files that came from other CAIR offices to your office. BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did any of your attorneys ever look at

those files? MR. ABBAS: for speculation. A I'm not sure. Objection, relevance. Calls

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Did you ever give any of those files to

your attorneys? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance.

I don't remember that.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Days files? Who right now is in charge of the Morris Again, I'm defining them as the files of

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 157 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that. BY MR. HOROWITZ: A A A those clients or attempted clients. MR. ABBAS: Objection --

I don't know. MR. ABBAS: -- vague. Calls for

speculation. A I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q How about a year ago? Do you know who was

in charge of those files? MR. ABBAS: Objection, vague. Relevance.

I don't know.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q How about ever? Do you know who ever was

in charge of those files? MR. ABBAS: Objection, relevance. Vague.

I'm not sure.

BY MR. HOROWITZ: Q Do you know if anybody working at CAIR in

Washington, DC ever looked at the attorney-client files, the Morris Days attorney-client files? MR. ABBAS: speculation. A Objection, calls for Vague. Relevance.

Asked and answered.

I don't know who specifically was doing

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 158 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q A Q But you never did? I don't -- I don't remember that. You don't remember it, but you never did,

you never looked at any of the files prepared by Morris Days for these clients? MR. ABBAS: and answered. A I don't remember. MR. HOROWITZ: further questions. MR. YERUSHALMI: I have none. Thank you. I've got no Objection, relevance. Asked

(Signature having not been waived, the deposition of NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD was concluded at 2:45 p.m.)

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 159 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 _________________ (DATE) ______________________________ (SIGNATURE) ACKNOWLEDGEMENT OF DEPONENT I, NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD, do hereby acknowledge that I have read and examined the foregoing testimony, and the same is a true, correct and complete transcription of the testimony given by me, and any corrections appear on the attached Errata sheet signed by me.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 160 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 ______________________________ LEE BURSTEN NOTARY PUBLIC IN AND FOR THE DISTRICT OF COLUMBIA CERTIFICATE OF SHORTHAND REPORTER-NOTARY PUBLIC I, Lee Bursten, the officer before whom the foregoing deposition was taken, do hereby certify that the foregoing transcript is a true and correct record of the testimony given; that said testimony was taken by me stenographically and thereafter reduced to typewriting under my direction; and that I am neither counsel for, related to, nor employed by any of the parties to this case and have no interest, financial or otherwise, in its outcome. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I have hereunto set my hand and affixed my notarial seal this 21st day of January, 2013. My commission expires June 30, 2014.

NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 161 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RETURN BY: PAGE ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ LINE ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ IN RE: E R R A T A S H E E T

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network, Inc., et al. -v- Paul David Gaubatz, et al.

_______________________________________ CORRECTION AND REASON __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ __________________________________ (SIGNATURE)

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NIHAD AWAD HAMMAD January 9, 2013 Page 162 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 RETURN BY: PAGE ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ LINE ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ ____ E R R A T A IN RE: S H E E T C O N T I N U E D

Council on American-Islamic Relations Action Network, Inc., et al. -v- Paul David Gaubatz, et al.

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