1 UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT

2 SOUTHERN DISTRICT OF FLORIDA
3 - - - X
4 E. H O ~   R D HUNT,
5 Plaintiff,
6 v.
7 JOSEPH OKPAKU PUBLICATION, THIRD
PRESS, INC., and A.J. WEBBERMAN,
8 individually,
9 Defendants.
10 - - - - - - - - - - - - - - X
761252-Civ-PF
11
January 25, 1978,
1:45 P.M.
12
Deposition of Marita Lorenz taken by
13
defendants pursuant to subpoena dated January 11, 1978,
14
at the offices of DavidS. Michaels, Esq., 242 Madison
15
Avenue, New York, N.Y., before Mark Richman, a Shorthand
16
Reporter and Notary Public of the State of New York.
17
Appearances:
18
ELLIS RUBIN, P.A.
19 Attorney for Plaintiff
265 Northeast 26th Terrace
20 Miami, Florida 33137
By: Corey E. Hoffman, Esq., of Counsel.
21
MARK FRIEDMAN, ESQ.,
~ Attorney for Defendants
350 Lincoln Road
~ Miami, Florida
24
25
By: DavidS. Michaels, Esq., of Counsel.
\' JUTHERN DISTRICT COUII.l REPOII.TERS. U.S COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y - 791-1020
•·

1 mrhh 2
2 IT IS HEREBY STIPULATED AND AGREED, by
3 and between counsel for the respective parties hereto,
4 that sealing, filing and certification a r ~ waived;
5 that all objections, except as to form, are reserved
n to the time of trial; and that this deposition may
7 be signed and sworn to before any notary public
8 with the same force and effect as if before a judge
9 of this court.
10
11 MARITA L 0 R E N z, called as a witness, having
12 been duly sworn, testified as follows:
J:l BY MR. MICHAELS:
14
Q Would you state your full name, please?
15 A Ilona Mar ita Lorenz.
16
Q E-1-o-n-a?
17 A I-1-o-n-a M-a-r-i-t-a L-o-r-e-n-z.
18
Q What is your date of birth?
19
A August 18, 1939.
20 Q
Your place of birth?
21 A Bremen, West Germany. I was registered at
22 birth as an American citizen.
Q Your parents' nationalities and their names?
24 A My mother was born in Wilmington, Delaware.
25 She is an American citizen. My father was born on the
~   J\JTHERN D!Yl R!CT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020
1 mrhh Lorenz 3
2 Rhine in West Germany; he's German.
3
Q Hhat was your father's occupation?
4
A He was a commodore of ocean liners.

5 Q
Do you have children?
6 A Yes, I do.
7 Q What are their names and their dates of birth?
H
A My daughter Monica Mercedes Perez
9 Jiminez, she was born March 9, 1962, in New York City.
10 My son, Mark Edward Yurasits is eight years old. He
11 was born December 13, 1969, in New York.
12 Q Can you tell us the dates and places of your
13 marriages and divorce, if any?
14 A I was married legally in 1970, February 28th,
15 to Louis John Yurasits.
16 Q could you spell that, please?
17
A Louis John, Y-u-r-a-s-i-t-s.
18 Q
You are still married to him?
19 A I was divorced in 1976.
20 Q If you are not sure, it is quite okay to say
21
that you are not sure. I have many questions that
22
may be difficult for you to recall. If you don't know

23
the answer to a question or if you are unsure, just say
24
so.
25 A
January 22nd I was divorced. I don't remember
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mrhh Lorenz 4
2 exactly the
3
Q What was Mr. Yurasits' occupation?
4 A He was a building manager at 250 East
s'?'tb
5
Street.
6
Q What languages do you speak, if any, aside
7 from English?
8
9
10
ll
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
21
24
25
A I speak German, Spanish. I understand
Italian pretty well, and American, English.
MR. MICHAELS: Those parties other than
myself and Mr. Hoffman are present with the consent
of both parties, and Mr. Hoffman's consent as well
as my own. In addition to the stenotype transcription
being made, we are also making      
recording of this conversation with the consent of all
parties.
Q
with Mr.
fessional
either to
lived in
A
Q
w;.th?
MR. HOFFMAN: That'-s correct.
During the time that you were married and living
Yu-rasits, did you have any particular pro-
assignment or occupation or work in relation
his work on the building or persons who
that building?
Yes. I was working for the FBI.
Who was the supervising agent that you worked
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1 mrhh Lorenz 5
2 A My case agent was Al Chestone and John
3 cotter.
4
Q
Can you spell the first name?
5
A Al, C-h-e-s-t-o-n-e.
li
Q What years were involved there, what time?
7
A 1970, January, 1970, to 19
--
when Frank's
8
articles came out, 1976.
9
Q
What particularly was vour assignment for
10 the FBI? Permit me to make it clear. Permit me to
11 amend that question. I am not making inquiry as to all
12 of the details, but a general description of your
13 assignment would be helpful.
14
A Espionage activities, breaking and entering,
15 garbology.
16
Q
When you use the word garbology, do,you
17 mean thereby that it was part of your work to --
18
A Yes, it was.
19
Q -- to look through the garbage and other
20 items disposed of by people in the building?
21
A Yes, it was.
22
Q Was that because people who lived in the .
2.1 building were
24
A Soviet bloc countries, the Albanian
Mission. We had 16 Russian families in the building.
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1 mrhh Lorenz 6
2 We had the Red Chinese; we had many UN dignitaries.
3 I did compact=work, 11hich is collecting garbage.
4 Q If I might return to the more distant back-
5 ground. During World lvar II, if you know, can you
6 tell us whether your father hod any Intelligence
7 assignments?
H
A Yes.
9
Q Let me just remind you that because neither
10
the tape recorder nor the court reporter can transcribe
11
a nod, that you should answer 1vith words even if you
12
are unsure.
l'l
A Okay.
11
Q What were those, if you know?
15
A He worked for Admiral Canaris and Admiral
lli
Kernitz; and he was to participate with the liner,
17 the First Bremen, to invade Enqland, which was called
IR off at the last moment by Hitler. He also worked
19 for the Justice Department.
20
Q
You mean the United States Justice Department?
21
A Yes.
22
Q Are you saying then that he lvas a double
~ agent, that he seemed to be a loyal German but was
~ actually working for the American Intelligence during
Zfi the war?
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1 mrhh Lorenz 7
2 A He was married to my mother who was an
3 American. He at one time was subpoenaed by the
4 Justice Department, I think in 1939, to testify for
••
5 this country, and he did. He stayed at the Gotham
6 Hotel, and I have record.q of the--. t.
7
Q But are you saying that while in the apparent
8
employ of the German Admiralty or the German Navy,
9
he was actually serving an Intelligence function for
10
the United States Government?
11
A As far as I have found through papers,
12 even though my father is a hero in Germany, was a fleet
l:l commander during the war, he was in the Baltic area.
1-1 He worked under Admiral Canaris. And I have found
15 papers where he was also working for this country.
16
0
During your early years, from, say, 1939
17
to 1945, where did you live 'lnd with whom?
1R
A In Germany, Bremerhoffen, West Germany, in
19
Bremen, where I was born, and in lladmunster AM Stein.
20
That's where my father was born.
21
Q I think Mr. Richman will need a spelling.
22
A B-a-d-m-u-n-s-t-e-i-n. It's 20 minutes

23
away from Frankfurt, where we have a home, a hotel.
24
Q You lived then with your parents in those
25
years?
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mrhh Lorenz 8
2
A Yes.
3 Q
During the post-war p2riod from 1945, say, to
4 1955, where did you live and with whom during that
5 period?
A In Bremerhoffen, Germany. My father was
7 working for the United States Army. My mother was
H working for the Chicago Tribune and for military
0 Intelligence. She opened up the first overseas
10 American in Germany.
11
Q By 1955 you would then be about 15 or 16
12 years old?
A No. I came first to this country in May,
14 1950 on the USS Henry Gibbons, united States Army
15 transport, with my mother. Hy father stayed behind
1G in Germany. I resided in Bradenton, Florida, with
17 my mother's relatives.
1H Q
19 when?
20 A
21 with the
22 Q
23 A
24 Q
?" _,,
A
And that would cover the period 1950 until
Then my mother got a job in Washington, D.C.,
CIA and we moved to Washington.
When was that?
I don't
Was she
And the
know the exact year.
an employee of the CIA?
Justice Department, yes.
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r
I mrhh
Lorenz 9
•)
Q Do you knO\v what her job was?
A Military and Army Corps of Engineers, the
4 Defense Department. I have papers to prove that .

5 The United States Defense Department, Department of
6 Defense. She worked in the Pentagon; she worked for
7 the Army Corps of Engineers. She worked -- I forgot the
H
island Governors Island.
9
Q How long did you reside in Bradenton, Florida,
10 with your mother's relative, until what year?
11
A I think only three years, and then we
12
moved to Washington, D.C.
(l How long did you live in Washington?
14
A I think until 1958. Then she got a job
15
with, I think Governors Island here, and we moved
16
to York to be closer to my father because he was
17
starting to bring in the large passenger liners
IS
from Germany.
19
Q How long did you live in New York?
20
A I went to school, Merchants and Bankers
21
Secretarial School. I resided with my mother and my
22
brother . Since 19 58 0

23
Q Until when?
24
A On and off.
25
Q When did you first meet Mr. Fidel Castro?
\.
1
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l mrhh Lorenz 10
2
A I went on cruises with my father, and I met
3 Fidel on one of those cruises. lie used to take me
4 with him. February 28, 1959 .
5 Q How is it that you remember the dates so many
6 years later?
7
A Because I fell in love with him at the time.
8
Q llml old were you at the time?
!)
A 18.
10 Q !lad you at that time, when you were 18,
11 when you first met Mr. Castro, had you before then had
12 any contact yourself with Intelligence agencies?
l'l !lad you had yourself any Intelligence work or assignments?
15
lli
17
18
19
20
21
22
2.3
24
25
A No.
Q Under what circumstances did you meet him?
Can you describe that day to us a little?
A Fidel?
Q Yes. February 28th, I think you said.
A We were on a West Indies cruise on the
liner Berlin. I was on board in my father's stateroom,
and
in
was
Havana was the last stop of the cruise. We were
the
too
0
A
harbor, docked in the harbor because the liner
large. And Fidel and about 40 barbudos--
B-a-r-b-u-1-o?
B-a-r-b-u-d-o-s, bearded ones, barbudos.
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mrhh
Lorenz
11
2 He told me when he qot on board that he stood on the
3 balcony of the Havana Hilton, and he saw this large
4 liner in the bay, and he had never been aboard a
5 passenger liner, so he took a launch and he came aboard
6 to visit.
7
Did he speak English or did you speak Spanish?
8 A I picked up a little Spanish from my
9 father at that time, but he spoke English.
10
Q When did you next meet with Mr. Castro?
11
A Fidel had dinner with us, and he asked
12 for a phone number in New York where he could reach me,
13 and I really didn't think he would call me, but I
14 gave it to him. And three days later I was in school
15 and I came home
Hi
Q Three days after you met him or three days
n after you returned?
LR A Three days coming up the east coast, returning
19 from the cruise to New York. My father returned to
20 Germany. Three days after that, I got a call from him
21 the Havana overseas operator, and it was the Prime
22 Minister.
23 Q
24 A
25 Q
What did he say?
He wanted me to come to Cuba.
And did you?
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1
mrhh
Lorenz
12
2
A Yes.
3 Q v:hen was that?
4 A That was early March.
5 Q Of 1959?
6
A Yes. I went on the Cubana airliner. He
7
sent a plane.
8
Q He sent a plane?
9
A He sent his
plane.
10 Q When you arrived in Havana at that time,
11 in March, did your relationship with the Prime Minister
develop into an intimate one?
13
A Yes, it did.
14
Q Where, and, when would you stay?
15
A I lived in the Havana Hilton Hotel,
16 suite 2408, with Fidel.
17
Q With Fidel?
1H
A Yes.
19
Q
So the two of you lived together for a time?
20
A Yes.
21
Q How long was that time?
22
A Eight months.
23
Q
How did he treat you during that initial eight-
24 month period?
25
A Fine. It was very interesting. He made me a
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1 mrhh Lorenz 13
2 member of the 26th of July Movement, and I became
:l
pregnant.
4 Q Did you have a child?
5
A No. I was aborted forcibly.
fl
Q Was it during that eiqht-month period that
7 you first met a man named Frank Fiorini or Frank Sturgis?
A Yes.
\)
Q When particularly did you first meet him?
]()
A Fidel and I and his aides went to the
11 Havana Riviera Hotel to speak to Colonel Charlie Bardil,
1
:') b . .
- and to close the gam cas1no.
1:! Frank Fiorini was in a uniform of the 26th
11
of July Movement, as well as I was. Fidel had ordered
lfi
the waiters to turn over the tables and throw down
Hi
the one arm bandits, the slot machines, because
17
he was opposed to gambling, which brought vice and
1H
everything else. It was in the lobby, a mirrored
19 lobby that Frank edged over to me, and he said, "I know
:>o b
- a out you. I got to talk to you."
21
I was afraid that Fidel would see me talking
22
to him, even though he had a 26th of July uniform on .
He was in charge of the casinos. "Tell Fidel he's
2.1 making a mistake. "
25
I was afraid that Fidel would see me talkinry
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1 mrhh Lorenz 14
2
to another man and get jealous. And Frank -- I
3 walked away from Frank, and t h   ~ he was talking to Colonel
4
Bardil, and Fidel's men were turning over the crap
5 tables and slot machines and reassuring the waiters
6 and the help there that they would get other jobs,
7 that they would join the ArMy, and if they opposed
R they would get the consequences.
9 Frank came over to me again and said, "I
10 work for the government." I said, "Which government?"
11 And he said, ''The United States Embassy.'' I said,
12 "I don't want to talk to you now because I am with
J:l Fidel." He said, "I will get back with you." He
14 said, "You have got to help me."
15
Q He said that?
l(j A Yes.
17 Q Did you know him then as Fiorini or Sturgis?
IM A Fiorini.
19
Q Did he ever mention working for the CIA or
20 the company?
21
A He said he worked for the United States
22 Embassy and the United States Government at that first
23 meeting.
24 Q Did he ever later say that he worked for the
25 CIA or the company?
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mrhh Lorenz 15
2
A The second time I saw him I was with two
3 of Fidel's guards. I "''asn' t allowed to go anywhere
4 because Fidel was jealous. I was allowed to go to
5 the coffee shop in the Hilton; even was allowed to go
6 to the cleaners; I was allowed to go to the newsstand
7 and to the pool .
8 One time when I went down with two of Fidel's
9 guards, because Fidel wa s busy, a nd I couldn't be confined
10 completely in the room, I went to the coffee shop
11 and I sat down. One guard sat with me, the other one
went to the newsstand,and then Frank slid in the seat
13 next to me and he said, "You are going to work for me.
14 I work for the CIA."
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q What did you say?
A
I was always afraid the guards would see
me, even though he wore the uniform, and that Fidel
would be jealous. So he wrote on a paper, a place mat,
a paper place mat that he wanted me to take Fidel's
papers, "Take papers from Fidel's file."
Q Did he say which papers in which file?
A No, no, he just wrote that. Then I took h is
pen out of the hand and I scratched it out because
I didn't want the guards to read it.
So, I moved a seat away and then other guards

 
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mrhh Lorenz 16
2 started to talk to him and he Si'l id comnanero, et cetera.
3 He was talking to my guards. Ancl then the guards
4 said, "If Fidel saw you he would be very jealous."
5 But Frank got to me anyway and said that you
n are going to work for me, "You have qot to ...
7 Q Did there come a time when you did agree to
H work for Mr. Fiorini and the CIA?
9
A Every time I turned around or went to the
10 pool Frank would be there or one of Frank's men, until
1l I actually told one of the guards, "Keep h:im away
12 from me." Because I was pregnant. I didn't want
'
13 anything to upset my relationship with Fidel. In
W fact, I even ran to Errol Flynn at the pool one day
15 to get away from Frank, because Errol Flynn was there
W making a movie at the time; and I said, "What do
17 you know about this guy Fiorini?" And he said, "He's
lli a bigshot; he's one of Fidel's top men."
19 Q Did there come a time, though, when you did
20 agree to work for Mr. Fiorini, the American government
21 and the CIA?
22
A Yes, I did.
23
Q How did that come about?
24
A That came about because I was drugged,
25
forcibly aborted and left to die in the Havana Hilton
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1 mrhh Lor e nz 17
2 Hotel. I don't reme mber much o f t hat , except the pa in,
3 which you forget, but waking up and seeing Camillo
4 trying to for c e food down me a nd medication. Camillo
5 CienFuegos, he was the s econd in command. And he said
6 to me, "Frank sent me. Take this. I will get you o ut
7 of here."
8 And I was bleeding to death. There was a
9 blackout, or there wa s no lights on in the room. And
10 he said he would get me to a hosp i t al and get me out
11 of the country. But he s a id, "Frank sent me." So I
12 took that, him getting me out.
13 Q And it was under the pre ssure of these
14 circumstances that you just related that you did a g ree
15 to work for Frank Fiorini and t he CIA and the Americ an
16   which he represented?
17
A Well , that carne later when I took the oath
18 in New York and in Miami. But this, to this I guess
19 I do owe Frank my life, even though Camillo maybe
20 died for it.
21 Q
Is Camillo dead?
22
A Yes.
23 MR . MICHAELS: Let's t a ke a ten-minute break,
?A if we may, if this is a s ui table time . Does Mr .
Hoffman have any objec tion on behalf of Mr . Hunt?
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mrhh
Lorenz 18
2
MR.   No objection.
3
(Recess)
4
Q What was the first thing that Frank Fiorini
5
asked you to do in working with him?
6
]\ I was to take papers otlt of Pidel's suite,
7
letters, whatever mail he got. Mv answer was, "Fidel's
letters are from female fans," jealously. I didn't
9
understand what he meant. I didn't have any interest
10
in anything else. There was money all over the suite;
11 there was cigars; there were men, there was Che. He
12
said anything. Any business type looking negotiation
13
letters to Fidel. He kept saying after a few
11
meetings he used to catch me -- that he worked for
15
the Embassy, United States Embassy and the State Depart-
16
ment, United States Government. And I said, "You
17
better then take your uniform off, because it was the
IK
black and red, the 26th of July Movement uniform.
19
He was close to the top people. He had meetings with
20 Fidel. I said, "You go to the suite, you can go in."
21
22
23
24
I had one room, they were adjoining rooms. Camillo
had one, Che had one, Fidel had one, Sanchez had one.
"You go to the meetings, why don't you take
the papers? Why me?"
"You know, because,'' he said, I am much
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1 mrhh Lorenz
19
closer to Fidel and the suite when everybody
3 leaves, with the safe and the files.
4
Fidel's very sloppy, he left papers all
5
over. I really didn't understand.
Q Did you do that for Mr. Fiorini? Did
7 you from time to time take papers?
A Yes, I did. I said, ''Yes, he doesn't care
about this one; this is somebody who wants to open
10
a business; a Cuban relief committee for bombed out
11
children, from n   Richter, a New York lawyer."
12
He said, "Keep it up,'' stuff like that.
I said, "Fidel is not even interested in that." People
are trying to open up businesses with Fidel, and Fidel
15
has other problems. Fidel would read them, throw them
1G
aside, throw them down on the floor and didn't care.
17
These are the papers I used to qive Frank.
18
Q During this first eiqht-month period, was
19 this the only kind of assignment you had, taking papers?
20
A Yes, and,where is Fidel going? When is he
21 going? Like he would go to Mantanzas or we would
22
go -- I would go with Fidel to the Cienega De Zapata,
those were swamp lands that Fidel wanted to convert into
24 rice fields.
25
I told him where we were going, not thinking
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1 mrhh Lorenz 20
2 anything, because it would soon be on the press anyway,
3
wherever Fidel went.
4
Q
During that period did Mr. Fiorini teach you
5
anything about his Intelligence work or tell you anything
6
about his other Intelligence activities?
7
A He said he was in charge of a military camp,
8 I think it was Camp Columbia and his good friend
D was Pedro diaz Lanz and that he Has going to try to
10 help people defect, get out.
11 Q Did he teach you anything about how to work
1
? .
~ as an Intell1gence agent?
A lie wanted to give me a camera to photograph
14
certain things that I said I wouldn't take out.
15
Q Did he tell you anything about other Intelli-
lli gence operations he had been or was then involved in?
17
A He wanted to keep the casinos open.
"Try to
18 talk to Fidel to keep tourism,'' he called it ''tourism.''
19 I said tourism you have to break down because Fidel
20 doesn't like vice, he doesn't like little boys selling
21 their 12, 13-year old sisters, which comes with gambling
22 and crime. He wants gambling out of Cuba. And he
~ tried to tell me to convince Fidel to keep gambling
~ going because it would kill tourism otherwise for the
25 United States.
'r UlHl:IU>J DblRlCT C U l l ~   r\El'UI\TERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
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mrhh Lorenz 21
Q Did you notice at that time who owned
3
most of the gambling casinos in Havana?
4
l\ I didn't know anything about it.
5
Q !lave you since learned who owned most
of those casinos?
7
A Whatever I have read in the paper, yes,
organized crime members.
Q Did you -- again talking about the first
Ill
eight-month period -- did you develop during that
11
time a close relationship with Frank Fiorini?
12
A No, not too close.
I:l
Q How often did you him? see
J.l
A Like every o.ther day. And sometimes
15
Fidel would have a discussion in the suite of military
1G
visitors, his brother Raul. And one time they spoke,
17
like a heated argument, about the defectors and
18
about the CIA, and Frank was agreeing with Fidel.
19
And I almost said something, and he gave me a sign
20
not to say anything.
21
Q Who?
22
A Frank Fiorini, because it was up in Fidel's
23
suite. They were saying the CIA -- there were attempts
  on his life. And even when I ate with Fidel --we
25
had room service -- Fidel would call in two guards to
'>' ·I.JTHERN DIS'l RICT COtJ!n P.l:PORTFRS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
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1 mrhh Lorenz 22
2 taste the food before we both ate. Fidel even sent
3 me away because he heard of an attempt on his life,
4 of a shooting, an ambush. lie sent me to the isle of
5 Pines for protective custody, to be put in protective
custody.
7
Q Did Mr. Fiorini ever mention using disguises
8
in his Intelligence work, or did you ever see him using
9
disguises of any kind?
10
A Not in Cuba at the time, at that time,
11 no. Later, yes.
12
Q I am going to ask you about that again in
1:l a few minutes.
14
Did Mr. Fiorini ever later tell you about
15 other Intelligence activities he had been involved
1li
with in Cuba?
17
A
Well, yes, later, yes. He was helping
18 to bring out certain Cuban -- well, three Cuban families.
19 He was -- this was after he had left Cuba. I am talking
20 about in Miami in 1960, that he was helping
21 people getting out, to get out of Cuba. But he
22
still had close contacts with the higher-ups in Cuba
~ at the same time.
24
25
Q Did you ever witness Mr. Fiorini committing
what would'be in this country criminal activities?
\1   ~ . . ; · f HE!\:--,; Dl) !IUCT COUI\; K!:POR TERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY :.QUARE. Nl\V YORK, N.Y. - 791-11121J

le
1 mrhh
Lorenz 23
A Yes.
3 Q Can you tell us what you witnessed?
4 A But itwas always in the best interests
5 of the country.
6
Q Let's say that --
7
A Now, let's just say it straight. I have no
8
lawyer, and I don't know of the statute of limitations
and all this. I am also implicated. I am talking
10
about the armories, the stealing of the weapons.
11 Q In Cuba?
12
A No.
l:l
Q In this country?
14
A Yes. You asked me in this country, right?
15
Q Yes. Do you know of or did you ever
16
witness him committing any criminal acts or what
17
would be criminal acts in Cuba?
IR
A This is what I was told recently would be
19 a criminal act. But at the time we were doing it for
W this country.
21
Q
Had it not been under those circumstances,
22
though, and leaving out that question of whether it
might perhaps not have been a crime because of
government sponsorship, is there any other act that you
25 witnessed, either in this country or in Cuba, which
I;! hEi\ DIS: k.ICl C0\ :
1
t l J:J F'URTERS. U.S. COUR
FOLEY NI::W YtlR!<... N.Y. -  


mrhh Lorenz 24
2 would otherwise be a crime by Mr. Fiorini?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Can you tell us, please, did you ever
5
see him injure or kill anybody?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Who?
H
A Two Cuban boys.
9
Q
Where and when? What happened?
10
A On a boat that I helped steal. We were
11 running guns.
12
0 To Cuba?
A No, to the Bahamas, No Name Key. And the boys
14
got sea sick because we were in the squall. I was
15
navigating the boat. He pushed them overboard. I
thought as a joke, even though bad as it is, with
17
no lights, no navigation material, we were not -- we
1H were told to avoid border patrol, shore patrol, no
19 signals, no radio, pitch black darkness, and he
20 wouldn't let me turn around.
21
Q Did you ever witness him committing any
22
other murders?
23
A The wars, during training, murder by letting
21 somebody die because of lack of narcotics, and shooting
~ somebody. But I don't think I would rather talk about
,.. UTHERN DISTRICT CO\JR r REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY ;,QUARE. r ~ t \ \   YORK. N.Y. - 791.1020


mrhh
Lorenz 25
2 that now.
3 Q Do you know who Frank Fiorini's attorney
4 was in the early 1960s?
5
No.
6 Q
Did you ever meet Mr. Ellis Rubin?
7 A No.
8 Q Do you knm1 the name of the group or the
9 organization? Aside from the American government,
Ill do you know the name of Mr. Fiorini's own organization
11 at that time, the early 1960s.
12
A I belonged to the Anti Communist International;
13 I belonged to Operation 40; Alpha 66; I was an
14 associate of the Cuban Revolutionary Council.
15 Q What is the Anti Communist International?
16 what was it?
17 A The Anti Communist International was originally
18 started by Alex Rorke in New York early 1960, and I
19 was a card carrying member. It was to fight Castro.
20 Q
21 group?
22
A
23
as I was
24
the FBI
25 Q
And Mr. Fiorini was involved in leading that
Mr. Fiorini was involved with the CIA,
told, in Miami; and Alex Rorke was more with
here.
Is that the same organization as one that
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mrhh 26
2 might be called the Internatior.al Anti Communist
3 Brigade?
4
A Yes, it is.
5
Q What is Operation, or what was Operation 40?
6 A Operation 40 was a group of trained Cubans
7 and Americans and myself, the only girl, to assassinate
R and kill whoever we were assigned to kill.
9 Q Who made the assignment, if you know?
10 A Frank. He was my troop commander and I
ll
took orders from him. He trained me in the Everglades.
I was the only girl member. I that because I was
]
"
,)
the only woman that could get back into Cuba to kill
Fidel.
15 Q Do: you know who sponsored or paid for the
IG operations of this group called Operation 40?
17
A Eduardo was the man we depended on for
18 money to keep going, for supplies. When the money
19 ran out we would break into places, Army-Navy stores;
20 we would get donations from wealthy Cubans. Eduardo
21 we went to once a month, and he handed Frank an
22
2..1
24
9-
-V
envelope, and that
was to keep us going.
Q When was the first time you met Eduardo?
A The first time, in 1960, early in the
--
on Brickell AvenuA, I think it's the Brickell Garden
) _,LJTHER01   CO!'R-:- U.S. COURTHOU'\F
FOLEY SQUARF, ':'Qr',l'--· __ N.Y -


1 mrhh
Lorenz
2 Apartments.
:J Q
B-r-i-c-k-e-1-l?
4
Yes, right over the hridge on Brickell
5 Avenue.
6 Q Is that in Miami?
7 A Yes.
8
Q Whom was he with at the time you first
9 met him?
10 A Eduardo was alone. He wore a white suit.
11 He seemed like a straight person. He was a "company
12 man," I was told. ''He
1
s a company man.•• I was in
13 the car. And Frank c:rot out of the car to collect
14 the envelope. They were good friends.
15 Q Who told you he was a "company man"?
16
A Frank.
17
Q By "company man," what meaning--
18 A CIA.
Q Did Frank use the word "company" to mean
20 the CIA?
21
A Yes.
22
Q Were the funds provided by Eduardo used
to support both the International Anti Communist
Brigade and Operation 40?
25
A Yes.
)\!UTI-!ERN   CO!_;!\T \J.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YUitK. N.Y. -
27


mrhh
Lorenz
28
2
Q And also Alpha 66?
3 A Yes.
4
Q What was Alpha 66?
5
A It was another faction group. There
6 were many groups, but I was also a member of Alpha 66.
7 It was an anti -Communist group to fight Fidel Castro's
8 red army. And we had no other way to stay alive if
9 it wasn't for those envelopes.
]() Q Envelopes from Eduardo?
II A The money. We got so desperate one time
I ~ that Frank wanted to shoot a horse on somebody' s
13 farm because he couldn't feed us. We were 158 men.
14
Q Was Operation 4 0 the only one:· of these
~ organizations that had an assassination group?
Iii A Yes, to my knowledge, yes.
17 Q Do you know of anybody they assassinated?
IR A I heard some G-2 men, Fidel's G-2 men,
19 I heard. I was also told by Frank later, two years
20 ago, a year and a half ago, that Orlando Mas Ferrer··
,
2\ and he had something to do with Trujillo, the
~ dictator of Dominican Republic .
23 Q .Wheri you first meet Eduardo, this was
~ the time that you were with Frank and he met him
25 to collect an envelope on Brickell Avenue, is that
:,, U T   ~ R N Dl'>fRICl C0UI\ I R!:PU!I.Ti:RS, U.S COURTHOUSE
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1
mrhh
Lorenz
29
2 correct?
3
A Brickell Avenue, yes. I was in the car
4 and we backed up. It was a gravel -- it was a motel,
5 water on one side, and he came to the door.
Q Who?
7 A 'Eduardo. And I stayed in the car about ten
8 feet away, and it was just a pickup. They did a little
9 talking and he came back.
10 Q Did they seem friendly?
11 A Yes.
12
Q Did Mr. Fiorini speak about Eduardo in
13 a friendly way or say anything that they were closer
or knew each other?
15 A Yes.
16 Q How long did he say he knew him?
17
A Years.
18 Q
What else did he say about him, if anything?
19 A Not too much. He was iust "money man.
"
20 MR. HOFFMAN: What is a G-2 man?
21
THE WITNESS: Fidel's military intelligence
22
today .
23
Q
I show you a picture, that being on page 217
the book Coup d'etat in America by Canfield and
Webberman, the leftmost of pictures, and I ask you if
anything that showed they were close or
.\' {!"J HERN   CUU!U   U.S COURTHOUSf
FOLEY r-;t:\1/ YUKK. N.Y. -


mrhh Lorenz 30
2 this is in fact Eduardo?
3
A Yes.
4 Q
Are you sure? Take a look at the picture.
5
A Looks very, very much like him.
6 0
Have you since then learned Eduardo's name?
7
A Yes.
H
Q
What is his name?
9
A E. Howard Hunt. I saw it in the New York
10 Times Hagazine, New York Times newspaper article
11 again in 1976 when I was working for the bureau.
1" My case agent threw down a Ne\v York Times and there
1'1 was a picture of Frank and Eduardo, and they all had
14 different names, going to court, and I started to laugh.
  ~ I told my case agent right then and there, Al Chestone,
Hi that's not E. Howard Hunt, that's Eduardo. And Sturgis,
17 I never heard that name: that's Frank Fiorini. And
18 I took out some other papers in the box that I had
19 and I showed him Sturgis was Fiorini. I was shocked
20 that he was in the Watergate thing, because I had
21 lost contact over the years.
22
He had said he had heen trying to find me
~ desperately, but I am glad he didn't .
24 Q
Ms. Lorenz, I am showing you a picture
25 now, that being the picture on paqe 221 of the same
~ 'lJl HUI.N !)151 RICT r:oL'It r I{ !:I' OR HRS. U.S. COUK THOUSE
FOLEY SQUARF. h'FW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020
-
1 mrhh
Lorenz 31
2 book. I ask you whether you recog nize this person?
3 A Yes, that is Frank Fiorini.
4 Q Are you sure?
5 A I am positive .
6
Q You mentioned a training with Operation 40
7 in the Everglades. Did you ever visit any other
8 training camps e ither of Alpha 66 or Operation 40
9 or the Anti Communist Brigade?
10
A New Orleans, once.
11 Q When was that?
12
A I don't know exactly , but I know my third
13 big supposed big assignment was General   a ~ ~ o Perez
14 Jiminez. I was sent to him by Frank to get information.
15
So I got involved with him, against Frank's
16 wishes, too damn involved, and I had a child. So my
TI child was born 1962. It was o n one of the many trips
18 up and down the coast, running guns, that we hit a
19 camp near a lake, that's all I remember, in New Orleans.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q Does the phrase "Lake Pontecharian" mean
anything to you? Could that have been the lake that
are referring to?
A
Q
A
I don't really remember.
Who else was at the c amp?
Rebels.
S1•UTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y - 791- 1020
you


1
mrhh Lorenz
32
2 Q
In
Ne"
Orleans?
3
A Rebels, soldiers, Cubans.
4 Q
Did you know any of them?
5 A Some I recognized from being us in Miami.
6 They went up there, but I don•t remember their names ..
7 Q Were there any Americans that you knew
8 at that camp?
9
A Yes.
10 Q Who were they?
11 A
Alexander Rorke was one. He's now dis-
12 appeared. Jerry Patrick, Alexander Rorke was one.
n He's now disappeared. Jerry Patrick was an instructor.
14 Americans -- I don't remember the names -- a few.
15 Q Would this have been 1961 or 1962?
Hi
A Well, I had my daughter in 1962, and the
17
general was very jealous, so it was 1961, end of 1961.
18
But even though I was with a general, I slipped away
19
from him once in a while and I went back to my Cuban
20
group. lie never found out.
21
Q Aside from what you have told us, what did Mr.
?:?
- Fiorini tell you about the then past or present
  activities and goals of Operation 40, Alpha 66 and
24 the Anti Communist Brigade? Did he tE:ll you anythinq
25 else about things these groups had done or were planning
S< •liTHEH.N !)J)II\ICT COL'R! RIYOI\TLRS. U.S. COlJRrHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARJ.:. NLW YOiU\ .. NY - 7'Jl-102U


mrhh Lorenz 33
2 to do?
3 A Their main goal was to overthrow Fidel
4 Castro .
5
I failed, and he said because I failed I
6
couldn't get out. In order words, I had to s-tay
7
with him, otherwise it would be dangerous for me
8
to break away because of the training to kill Fidel,

where he gave me the poison and I didn't succeed.
10
Q Where did you receive the training to kill
ll Fidel?
12
A In Miami.
Q Was that with the Operation 40 group?
14
A Yes.
15
Q Who else was members of Operation 40?
1G
A Pedro.
17
Q Diaz Lanz?
18
A Pedro Diaz Lanz.
19
Q Juan Bach?
20
A Oh, yes, Juan Bach.
21
Q
Orlando Boch?
22
Orlando Bach. In fact, he patched up my wound
23
when I was shot.
A
Q
25
A
Was Mr. Rorke a member?
Yes.
  'UTHERN !JISlRICT COl: In REPORTERS. U.S COURTHOUSE
FOLEY Nl:W YOI\K, NY. - 7CJI-1020


1
mrhh Lorenz 34
2
Q Was there a Mr. Hemming who was a member?
3
A Yes.
4
Q
Do you remember his --
5
A
fi
Q Do you remember his first name?
7
A Jerry.
R
Q Was Eduardo a member?
9
A Eduardo wasn't always with us, but Eduardo
10 was there. He was -- he would visit. We had a safe
II house in the southwest section of Miami. That's where
12
I was trained.
13
Q What is a safe house?
11
A Safe house -- it is where only certain
15 members, very close, very tight, go to get instructions.
1G
Q Were there other safe houses that you knew
17
about?
18
A Yes. This particular one I remember well,
19 because that's where Frank kept me lor.ked up for three
20 weeks.
21
Q
22
A
23
24
scope of
25
Q
Did Eduardo know the activities of Operation
I would guess so . He was in the safe house.
MR.
M ~ r  
Did
HOFFMAN: Objection, it is outside
Lorenz's knowledge.
Eduardo in your presence--
..,, ,lJTHERN DlS"l!UCT COU!U REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NE\'/ YURK. N.Y. - /91-1020
the
40?


1
mrhh
Lorenz
35
2
A Nobody was allowed in there unless they
3
had knowledge of killing somebody.
4
Do you understand?
5
MR. MICHAELS: He understands.
6
MR. HOFFMAN: May I?
7
MR. MICHAELS: Go ahead.
8 MR. HOFFMAN: You don't know what Eduardo
9 knew unless he told you?
10
THE WITNESS: No, I don't know. lie walked in
11 the safe house, that's it. But he didn't discuss
u anything. I was trained to kill Fidel; others were
13 trained to kill others.
14 Q Who else was on the list of people to
Fi be killed by Operation 40?
Hi A Fidel, G-2 people, rifle members, like
17 El Tigre, marksmen.
18 Q And that is Mr. Mas Ferrer?
19
A Yes. Raphael.,Torillo.
20 Q What did your training with Operation 40
21 consist of?
22 A It depended on -- well, it depended. Well,
23 mine was to poison; the others \vcre trained in wire-
~ tapping and shooting, knifing, k a r a t ~   guerrilla
25 warfare, ambush.
.,, '!lTHER:'-1 IJ!S I KIC I' C.'!H:T 1\tPORTEI\5, U.S. COURTHOUSF
FOll:Y SQUARE. h'L \'/ YUR.K. N.Y. - /)'1.1020
1
mrhh
Lorenz 36
2
Q Was Eduardo pa ying the bills for Operation 40
3 at that time?
4
A Frank told me he paid for everything. If
5
it wasn ' t for him we couldn't go on .
6 0
Who was the boss of Operation 40?
7
A To me, Frank. I answered to Frank.
8 Q Do you know who was Frank's superior?
9 A I would assume it was Eduardo.
10
Q Did Frank ever show you a copy of a book
11 called Bimini Run?
l2 A I don't recall; , maybe.
13
Q Do you recall whether he ever gave you a
14 copy of that book or explained that there was reference
  to him in that book?
16
A Oh , that's' the pocket book?
17
Q Yes.
18
A Yes, I think so.
19 Q Do you remember what he said about the
20 book or about a reference to him in that book?
21 A He was talking. This wa s about a year and
  a half ago. He was talking about himself writing a book.
  He was going through some of my mother ' s books, and my
  mother had a lot of books written by E. Howard Hunt,
  and one of them was Bimini Run. I know which one it is
5l UTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. NY. - 791-1020


nrhh Lorenz 37
•)
now, it's got a hont on the cover, a picture
3 of a speedboat or something. In the back he pointed
4 out -- in fact Frank pointed out the back of the book .
5
It says Hank Sturgis or something, Hank Sturgis,
6
and he laughed.
l!e saw the book in my apartment,
7
but the book belonged to my mother, and he laughed.
And he referred to it as, ''Your buddy Eduardo, our
9
buddy Eduardo."
HI
Q Did he indicate that the Hank Sturgis
11 somehow involved him?
 
A I asked where he got the name Sturgis.
I said, ''You are Frank Fiorini. Where did you get
14
the name Sturgis?" He said something about his mother
15
being remarried, or being adopted or something. I don't
16
know, I just brushed it off. But Hunt was a good
17
writer. In other words, what he lived he wrote.
18
Q Did he ever say that any sentences in that
19
book were accurate, and in fact that the Hank Sturgis
20
in the book Bimini Run was molded after or --
21
A After him. lie said after him. He was the
22
Sturgis . He said he's Sturgis. This is after Watergate,
after I found out that he used the name Sturgis.
24
I remember that now. He used to ask me
?-
_v when am I going to write my book.
l_;'l J RIC! COL' Ill J(::I•Cll TERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NE\'/ YOf.K. NY - 791-1020


mrhh
LorECnz
38
2 Q
Do you know anvthinq about the Anti
3 Communist Brigade or Alpha 66 or Operation 40 receiving
4 any money from anyone other than Eduardo and the
5 sources you mentioned?
A Cubans, wealthy Cubans, yes, because
7
Eduardo wouldn't give us that much, but it was steady.
8
We got it from wealthy Cubans in Miami.
9
Q Any Americans?
Ill
A Americans? What's his name? Rockefeller,
II
Happy, he was married to Happy.
12
MR. WEBBERMAN: Nelson was married to
13
Happy.
14
A Not Happy. What the heck is his name? I
15
don't know. He lived in --he was a relative or a
son of Rockefeller.
17
Q
Did he give a substantial amount or don't
18 you know?
19
A I don't exactly. I am not positive about
20
that.
21
Q Any --
22
A I know one Irwin Charles Carden.
Z:l
Q c-a-r-d-i-n?
24
A C-a-r-d-e-n, and he was CIA connected
25 definitely, because he introduced me to two CIA agents
)\_,UTHH:>J O!)rF!CT COLJI\f !{U'URTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARL NlW YORK. N.Y. - 79!-1020
1 mrhh
Lorenz
39
2 and I saw their credentials, and he's now dead.
3
Q Do you know anything about any money coming
4 from a General Walker?
5
A I am not positive, but I know General Marco
6 Perez Jiminez gave Frank money. He was supporting
7 the Cuban refugees and the anti-Castro guerrillas.
8
Q When did Mr. Alex Rorke disappear?
9
A Right after -- Walker, the name Walker.
10
Q When did Mr. Alex Rorke disappear?
11 A Alex was like a brother to me. He disappeared
12
right after the extradition of the general. And he
13
warned me to go home and stay away from Frank.
1-1
Q And about what year would that be?
15
A 1963. I had already had my daughter, Monica
16 Mercedes. And the general was extradited. Alex was
17 a good guy, very American.
18
Q
Did he disappear before or after November 22,
19 1963?
20
A Before.
21
Q
How soon before, if you know?
22
A I think two months before. And I wanted
23 to talk to Frank about that.
24
Q
25
A
Did you ever talk to Frank about that?
Yes, I d id.
  DISTRICT COUIU llEJIORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
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1
mrhh
Lorenz 40
2 Q What did Frank say?
:l A Frank said, "Come on, you know who killed
4 him; the CIA killed him. He didn't want to go along with
5 plans we had."
6
Q Did he ,;ay which plans?
7
A No.
8
Q Did Frank say anything else about the death
9
of Rorke or disappearance of Rorke?
]()
A No. I asked him, "Frank, did you kill him?"
11 because I know Alex. I know him well. He was a
0
- pr1est. lie went to Loyola School. He wouldn't go along
11 with certain things. Frank -- I mean -- Frank answered
11
me, when I asked him, "Did you kill him?" because
15 Alex was really the pilot. Alex did most of the heavy
1(1
work against Fidel, ramming freighters, he had the
17
violin•III.He did the ramming of the freighters
18 that were going to Cuba, and Frank would take the credit.
l9 Alex was the pilot who dropped leaflets over Havana.
W But Alex wouldn't kill.
21
Q What did Frank say when you asked him whether
22 he had been the one who killed Rorke?
A When I asked him he kept telling me the
24 CIA killed him. "What are you, stupid? Whatare you,
dumb? lvhatare you, blind?"
'>• ·UTHHI-l   I '<t!'URTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. YORK. N.Y. -


mrhh Lorenz 41
2
0
That's what he said to you?
A He said, "When you get measles, you get the
4 measles."
5
() What was that supposed to mean?
6
A That was supposed to be a phrase that you get
7 the measles, you are marked for death.
Q Do you know who was the last person to see
D Alex Rorke. alive?
A Frank.
11 Q Do you know who orc1anized a search party
12
for the body of Mr. Rorke?
]J
A I know only that the FBI came to me,
ll
both of them, the same ones that recruited me, in the
~ end of 1959, 1960. The two FBI agents' names
16 I will name them. Their names are Frank O'Brien
17
and Frank Lundquist, and they both came to me
lH and they had tears in their eyes. They were almost
rn crying, and they said, "Please, find out anything
20 you can about who killed Alex or what happened to
21
Alex." And I turned over some letters. Alex used to write
22
me letters a lot, take pictures a lot, give me copies,
23
tell me to hide them, I will need them one day because
24 "We are both in this."
The FBI asked me outright if Frank killed
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mrhh Lorenz
42
2 Alex, because Alex was very close to them, to the two
3 agents.
4 Q When was this interview with the FBI?
5
A I think it was in-- I think it was about the
6 fourth attempt on my life, I tl1ink around 1965 in
7 Fort Lee, New Jersey, where I was hiding out.
8
Q You mentioned that some time after your
first meeting with Frank Fiorini you came to know that
10
he sometimes used disguises.
ll When was that and what happened?
12
A
In Florida he had disguises, because if
l:l we ran short of supplies -- we had Army rations or
14 whatever -- and we needed supplies badly, he would
15 disguise himself with masks and change his hair.
16
Q How would he change his hair?
17
A Comb it differently.
lH
Q Did he ever color his hair?
19
A He had the material, which I saw, to color
20 the hair. But he would use -- depending on what kind
2lof work it was, at night he would use a black mask,
22
or he had paint, professional paint types so he
wouldn't be recognized if we robbed a place.
24
2:i
MR. MICHAELS: Mark this.
(Document marked Defendants' Exhibit 1 for
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1 mrhh
Lorenz
43
2 identification.)
3
Q I show you a photograph on page 211 of the
4 book Coup d'etat in America, Defendants' Exhibit 1
5 for identification, and I ask you whether you recognize
6 any of the people.
7 A It certain looks like Frank and Eduardo.
Q Which are Frank and Eduardo, or which are
9 the people who look like them?
]()
A There is Frank.
11 MR. HIC!IAELS: Designating the person in
12 the middle.
13
A Yes.
14
Q And which one looks like Eduardo?
15
A This one;
1ti Q The gentleman in white pants with a hat on?
17
A Yes.
18 Q I show you a picture on page 213 of the
same
19 book, and I point out to you the gentleman who is fourth
20 from the left of the five people in the foreground,
21 and I ask you who that person is, if you know.
22
A That looks like Frank.
23
Q
I show you the bottommost picture on page 216
  of the same book, and I ask you if you know that person.
25
A That looks like Frank.
') UTHU:.N [)lSI RICJ COUI{ I Hf!'ORTERS, U.S. COURTHO!J)f
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1 mrhh
Lorenz
44
Q And I show you the middle picture on the
3 same page.
4 A Eduardo.
5 Q And now I show you the two rightmost pictures
6 on page 217 of the same book, and I ask you whether
7 you recognize that person or those people.
A Eduardo.
Q Both pictures?
10 A One is blurry, but the right -- the left
ll it's a lot of years, but it sure looks like him.
12 Q I show you the picture on page 220 of the same
1.3 book, and I ask you VThether you recognize this man.
14
A Frank Fiorini.
15 Q And I show you the picture on page 219 of the
16 same book, and I ask you whether you recognize the
17 man in the foreground next to the policeman.
18
A I would say that is Frank Fiorini.
Hl
Q And I show you the picture on page 220 of
20 the same book, and I ask you whether you recognize
21 this person.
22
A Frank.
MR. MICHAELS:
I would like to have this
  photograph marked for identification.
XX 25
(Photograph marked Defendants' Exhibit 2
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mrhh Lorenz
45
2 for identification.)
3
Q And can you point out to us please, and
4 mark with this pen in the mar0in above
1
any person
5 in that picture you recognize. And will you tell us,
6
7
9
10
11
12
1'\
14
15
\G
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
please, who you recognize it to be, if anyone?
Which of the people in that photograph
have you marked? The one on the right?
A
You see, if you knew Frank the way I knew
Frank --
Q Which picture have you marked; is it
the one on the right?
A The one on the right.
Q And who do you recognize that to be?
A Frank. It's his mouth, it's his hair.
Q How well do you know Frank? How many times
have you seen Frank Fiorino or Frank Sturgis?
A Many times. He was mv troop commander; lived
in the Everglades.
Q
A
Q
something
A
he came to
Have you seen him more than a dozen times?
Of course.
Have you seen him more than a hundred times,
in that vicinity?
1959, 1960, and in these last two years
New York often. I can't keep track of
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XX

mrhh Lorenz 46
2
exactly how many times, but plenty of times. I know
3 Frank.
4
MR. MICHAELS: And now I will ask to have
5 this photograph marked for identification.
6
(Defendants' Exhibit 3 marked for identificatio··
7 Q I show you this photograph, and I ask you
8 whether you recoqnize this person.
9
A That's Frank.
10 Q Just to assure ourselves that we have
11 the same picture in mind, I wonder if you would just
  ~ mark your initials on the back of those two photographs.
A (Witness complies)
14 MR. HOFFMAN: Can Ihave a voir dire
15 as to where these pictures came from and how they
Hi come to exist here?
17 MR. MICHAELS: I think that is something
18 you might wish to explore another time in other
19 circumstances. We have asked her only to identify
20 these; the circumstances as to how they came to be
21 taken, we will find out another time. I don't think
22 it is a suitable thing for this interview since she
~ was not present at the taking of the photographs.
24 Q
You have identified a number of pictures as beiP•
25 Frank Fiorini-Sturgis.
Is this only because you know
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1 mrhh Lorenz
47
2 him well over the years, or are there particular
3 features in these pictures which make you particularly
4 certain the pictures you have identified are in fact
5 Frank Sturgis?
6 A His -- I know he combs his hair differently.
7
It's his face, his round face; it's his mouth; it's
8
his eyes; it's his nose.
9
Q Did there come a time when you left Cuba
10
and went back to this country?
ll A I went in -- after I got out, when I was
12 ill, I went in again twice, once to steal papers
13 for the bureau and the company, and once -- sent
14 again by Alex and Frank Fiorini to kill Fidel, which
15 I didn't do because it's not in me. And that was in
Hi 1960. That was when Cubana Airlines was still running
17 and I could still use my uniform.
18 Q Did you then work with other people in those
19 operations?
20
A After that I went into training in the
21 Everglades, and I was shot.
22
Q
23
A
24
Q
25
A
Who shot you?
During training I was shot in the neck.
By accident?
It was i1n accident. I was really thinking
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Lorenz
48
2 about Fidel. I put my head up, and it was during
3 training. \Ve did everything, plastic explosives, JUmping,
4 running guns, real guerrilla warfare. When I got shot
5 I realized I didn't want to die, but then -- and then
6 I joined Pan American t ~ o r l   Airways. And then, while
7
I was in school with Pan Am, Frank·came to me again
8
and said, "You can't get out this way. If you do
1
you get
9 the Latin American division and you work for us."
10
So I said, "No, if I am -- I am going to
11 make it." I was accepted witl1 Pan Am. "I want to
12 go to Europe; I want to see my family."
13 He said, "I want you to approach General
14 MarCo Perez Jiminez."
1R I did not know who the general was. He was
18 a military general from Venezuela who was having a
17 party. I was to gather information from him; that
IR he was sure he would like me and that was -- he would go
19 too.
20
Instead, I got too involved. I got information,
21 and I got too involved with the general, and the general--
~ I lived with the general, and I got pregnant. And I
23 was told not to have the baby.
24
Q
A
By whom?
Frank, because Im·es:sed up an assignment. And
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mrhh 49
2 I said, ''I have been under the impression for over a
:J year that I could never have children." That is why I
4 was almost suicide bound . "I am going to have this
5 baby." And I had my daughter, but not in Miami. I
6
told the general because there was twice I was set
7
up;I was told it some men from Chicago came to mv
8
door and wanted me to set the qeneral up, and I said--
9
Q
By that they meant?
10
A Set him up. I don't to do what, kidnap,
11 rob or hurt, I don't know. Any\vay, I said "No." And
12
I got hit by -- the man's face I will never forget.
And I told the general, and he sent me to New York
14
to be with my mother, to have the baby, before
15
something happened to me there.
1G
Q You mentioned a few moments ago that you
17
went back to Cuba twice for the bureau and the
18
company. Did you mean by that the Federal Bureau
19
of Investigation and the CIA?
20
A Yes, yes, I did.
21
Q
And who asked you to go to Cuba for the bureau?
22
A Alexander Rorke, Frank O'Brien, in New York,
Frank Lundquist, and another agent in Miami. I can't
remember his name.
25
Q
What your mission at that time?
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2 A The first time was to take out papers, take
3 whatever I could steal.
4 Q Do you know what those papers concerned?
5 A Yes. After I got out they were standing
6
by with radios and everything. I hid. out in a Chinese
7
cemetery. I finally took a 6 A.M. flight out and I
8
met them at the airport in Miami and I turned the papers
9
over. I got in a black car. I was exhausted. I was
10 given benzedrine to stay awake, but I didn't take it,
11 and I wanted a hamburger. And the papers were --
12 I was told -- and they were very excited in the car--
13 that they were the site
1
aerial, topographical,
14 topography views, photographs, of potential missiles.
15
The sites, the clearing sites where Fidel would be
16
putting his missiles.
17
Q What year was that?
18
A 1960, early. And they discussed that in
19 the car with four agents.
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
Who was there?
A I would say two CIA men, Alex and one--
Q Did you know their names?
A I don't recall their names because I was
overtired, and I just wanted to go to sleep; and I
hadn't eaten because I had to change within Cuba to
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1 mrhh
Lorenz 51
2 out again.
3
Q
Did there come a time when you went back to
.a.t•.tne:. request of the company, or the CIA?
5
A Yes.
6
Q What was your mission that time?
7
A To kill Fidel.
R
Q Who sent you?
9
A Frank.
10
Q And what were you told to do at that time?
11
A Poison him.
12
Q How?
1:!
A I was given two capsules, and I was talked
to for a couple of weeks in a safe house. I was --
15
the capsules I was told was botulin toxin.
Q Could that be botulism?
17
A Botulism toxin, something like that. I
18 agreed because of loyalty, I guess, and I was the only
ID one that could do it. In other words, they butter
20 you up pretty good, that you are the only one.
21
But when I was on the plane going in and
I saw the outline of the shores, I knew I couldn't do
23 ;t
• and I got frightened, and I put them in the coldcream.
24
Q
25
A
And what happened?
Fidel hnd G-2 men at the airport. And my
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mrhh Lorenz 52
2 suitcase sat outside while everybody was being
3 screened to go in. And I stuck them before in the
4 bathroom in a jar of Pond's coldcream, and the
5
suitcase being out in the sun I guess melted them,
6 dissolved them. I mean I couldn't pick them out any
7 more. I opened the sui tease again when I got to the
8 Hilton and Fidel was there, and I flushed them down
9 the bidet.
10
Q Did you do anything else on that mission?
11
A I worried.
12
Q How did you leave Cuba that time?
13
A The same way, as a tourist with Cubana Airlines.
14 And that was the last time I was in Cuba. And I got
15 a scolding, and I "blew it," and this and that.
]()
Q A scolding from whom?
17
A Frank.
1R
Q What did he say?
19 A I "blew
it .. If
How could I, all the effort,
20 all the money, all the time involved, all the training.
21 I said -- I started to cry. I said, "You still don't
"?
"- understand."
I loved him. He had nothing to do with the
24 death of the baby, it was the people around him. I
25 couldn't kill him, it was just not in me to kill him
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mrhh
Lorenz
53
2 even though I could have, many times, living there,
3 sleeping with him; I could have shot him, I could
4 have stabbed him, I could have done it many times,
5 but I didn't. I just wouldn't.
6
Q Were you ever subiect to any reprisals
7 from pro-Castro Cubans?
A I was shot at again in 19 -- end of 1960.
9 I ran away once. I came to New York. There is a police
10 file on that, Lieutenant Enright with the 24th
11 Precinct, that
I
''"'as
shot at bv two of Fidel's G-2.
12
They were apprehended and sent back with diplomatic
13
immunity. One was shot; one was jailed.
14
Q Did Frank ever sav anything to you about
lo the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba? Did he ever
1o express any reaction of the failure to the invasion
17 of Cuba?
JH
A He was training them, and he was sending
19 them to Nicaragua to camp, Manuel's Camp. And the
20 failure -- everybody was vehement; everybody was
21 sad; everybody spoke with hatred towards Kennedy.
22
Q Do you remember Frank speaking with hatred
23 towards Kennedy at that time?
24
A
25
Q
Yes.
Do you remember what particularly he said
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1 mrhh Lorenz 54
2 at at that time?
3 A "I could kill that son of a bitch."
4
Q Did he ever say anything else about
5 killing Kennedy?
6
A "He deserves to die." And I would argue
7 with him. I would say, "It wasn't his fault. Somebody
8 goofed." "Well, where was air cover? And I had the
9 job of giving back the dogtags to the families
Ill of the Cubans.
II
Q How many times did you see Eduardo with
12 Mr. Sturgis before 1972? In the 1960s and through
13 1972, how many times would you estimate you saw the
14 two of them together?
15
A About 20, 25 times.
16
Q Did they seem to be on friendly terms at
17 all on all those times?
18
A Yes.
19 Q Did Mr. Sturgis ever warn you not to share
20 full information with Eduardo? Did he ever caution
21 you against speaking in front of him?
22
A I was introduced, I shook hands. No. Warn me?
23 Q Did he ever tell you that Eduardo was not
fully aware of your plans or that you should keep
your mouth closed when he was around?
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1 mrhh Lorenz 55
2
A Yes. We never did any talking especially
3 being in Operation 40. "You never talk to anybody."
4
Q Did you ever see Eduardo with Mr. Hemming also
5 known as Jerry Patrick?
6 A Jerry Patrick Hemming?
7 Q Yes.
8
A Tall parachutist.
9
Q Did you ever see him with Mr. Eduardo?
10 A He's an instructor. Yes.
1l
Q Where and when?
12 A In the safe house.
13 Q once?
14
A Once that I remember.
15 Q Did you ever see Eduardo with Pedro
W Diaz Lanz?
17
A Yes.
18 Q Where and when?
19 A First of all, Pedro was in a car with us
20 when we made the pickups for the money and they knew
21 each other. I also saw him with Manuel Ortiz.
22
Q
Who is Manuel Ortiz?
23
A Manuel Ortiz was a company man who instructed
  Cuban refugees in Nicaragua, Managua, and he was
25 close to Hunt, Eduardo, and he is now dead.
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mrhh Lorenz 56
·> Q Do you know how he died?
3
A I read it in the paper. I was very surprised,
4
because I knew him well. l!e died supposedly of cancer,
5 in Miami about two months ago.
6
Q Did you ever see Eduardo with Orlando Boch?
7 A Yes.
8 Q Where and when?
9
A In Orlando's house.
10
Q How many times did you visit Orlando's house?
ll
A Many times.
12
Q How many times did you --
J:l
A Because Hunt or Eduardo would be there
W when we made the pickup. Frank would get out of the
15 car. Orlando would be there. Orlando had a wife,
16 a couple of kids. And it was a small white house. I
17 don't know the address exactly, hut I could draw
18 it for you. In fact, Orlando patched up my wound
19 when I got shot.
20 Q Ms. Lorenz, I show you a page from an address
21 book, and I ask you whether you recognize the page of
22 this address book or the handwriting.
23 A That's my old address book .
24 Q Who gave you the address for E. Howard Hunt
25 as 544 Camp Street?
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mrhh Lorenz 57
2
A It was -- anybody who gave me addresses

was Frank.
4
Q When was that entrv made?
5 A This is an old address book.
6 (J Do you know when it. was made?
7 A I don't know, but it•s an old address
H
book because on the same page is Sanchez, Marco's man.
9
Q Would you know for instance whether that entry
10 would have been made before 22, 1963, or after?
ll
A Before.
12 Q How do you know?
13 A Because of this man Sanchez, who was with me
14 when my daughter was born in 1962. He was in the
15 delivery room, sent by the general. And he runs now
16
17
Iii
19
20
21
22
23
24

-"
the Hillcrest Cabana and Country Club. This is
an old address book, a very old one.
Q If this was in
fact made before November,
A Well, mv daughter was born in 1962.
Q
-- why is it that the name is listed as
E. Howard Hunt instead of Eduardo, if you know?
A I don't know. Frank gave me addresses many
times that I put down. We were in New Orleans . There
was one
because
place in. New Orleans that I remember. It was
I remembe1·cd my father -- the Seamen's Home,
,u·1 HERN   COL/ZT !lEPORTERS. U 5. COURTHOU:.E
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a--
--
1 mrhh
Lorenz
58
2
maybe a Seamen's Home. That's all I remember. Maybe
3
in some place he sent me into for guns or whatever.
4
Q I see that this entry for E. Howard Hunt

5 at 544 Camp Street shows no city.
t> l'lould you know what city that address
7 was located in?
H A New Orleans, because I know -- I am putting
9 two and two together makes four right now to me. It was
1tJ an address that I put down in New Orleans.
II
MR. HICHJ\ELS: I submit this for Mr.
12 Hoffman's inspection and ask that it be marked for
IJ identification.
w (Document marked Defendants' Exhibit 4
XX
Vi
for identification.)
A All I remember is when I was in New Orleans
17 there ~   a s a Seamen' s Home somewhere near there.
lR
Q Ms. Lorenz, I want to ask you about
19 a number of people and ask you whether you had ever
w seen them with Frank Fiorini. First, David Ferrie.
21
A David Ferrie. I think, I am not positive,
22 I think he is a pilot.

23 Q Mr. Bannister .
24 A Company man, former FBI agent.
25
Q Do you know Mr. Guy Dnnnister?
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1 mrhh Lorenz
59
2 A No. The name Guy I remember, but I associated
3 him with as a company man. It would be either company
4 or FBI .
5 Q
Laran Eugene Hall.
6 A Yes.
7 Q Where and when did you meet him with Frank
8 Sturgis?
9
A In Miami.
10
0
When?
11 A Let me see. In the early days.
In the
12 early days.
13 Q Early 1960s?
14
A Yes.
15 Q Do you know what group or organization
Hi he was a member or representative of?
17
A
18 Q
19 A
20 Q
21 official
22
which I
2.3
A
2·1 I never
25 Q
I think he was with Patrick's group.
That is Patrick Hemminq?
Yes.
Did you ever meet Frank Sturgis with any
mentioned in the Garrison Investigation,
understand you are familiar with?
I am not too familiar with the Garrison thing.
read the book. lie wrote a book.
Did you ever meet Frank Sturgis with William
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I mrhh
Lorenz
60
2
Seymour?
3
l\. I don't know who that is. I am better at
4
pictures than names.
5
Q Do you recognize the photograph shown to you
6 now?
7
l\. This guy? We all looked sloppy in those days.
8 Q Do you recognize that man? If you are not
9 sure, that's all right.
10
l\. I would say 85 percent.
11
Q And you are 85 percent sure that you
12 recognize him as what?
13
A
1 c\ Q
L\
Frank?
]() l\.
17 all in
18
Q
19
A
20
Q
21 l\.
22 Q
23 A
24 Q
25 A
I have seen him before.
Do you know where you have seen him with
I would have had to because we were
the same group.
Did you ever meet Harvey Oswald?
Yes.
When did you first meet him?
In the safe house.
Where?
In Miami.
What year?
I know it was after the extradition of
  CUiji\J J',lPORT[RS, U.S. COURTHOU)E
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the
1 mrhh Lorenz 61
2 general, and that was Aug ust, '63.
3 Q
Some time between August and November of 1963?
4
A Yes. And I am 99 percent sure that I have
5 seen him in training with us before that.
6 Q
Was he introduced to you at that time?
7 A As "one of us."
8
Q What was his name that he gave, or the name
9 he was introduced to you by?
10 A Lee or Ossie.
ll Q Did you come to know him by some nickname?
l2
A Ossie.
13 Q How many times did you meet him before
M November of '63?
15 A About three or four times, because
16 at that time I was trying to get my life organized
17 after the extradition. I lost the general, I lost
18 my money. David lv. Walters , my attorney, stopped
19 my money and threatened my life, so I ran back to
20 Frank Fiorini's group for help.
21
Q I show you a picture on page 205 of the book
22
Coup d'etat in .1\merica and I ask you whether this is
23
the person you knew as Ossie.
24
A Yes.
25
MR. HOFf'r·1AN: Excuse me, did you enter into
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the


1 mrhh Lorenz 62
2 record that picture from the n<>wspaper of Seymour?
3
MR. MICHAELS: \'/ill you mark it for
4 identification .
5
(Photograph marked Defendants' Exhibit 5
XX G for identification.)
7 Q Did you ever have any conversations
H with Ossie before November of 1963?
9
A Since we were mostly Cuban -- I was the only
10 girl. I had a good reason for being a member because
11 of the death of the baby. Frank had a reason; Pedro
1
,_,
Diaz Lanz had a reason. I questioned Frank about
1'' Ossie's connection. Why was he with us and he said
that, "Don't worry about it. lie's okay. We are going
15 to use him." I said, ''He can't -- what can he do?
Hl He can't even 1 ift a rifle."
17 He looked so undernourished. I didn't
IH like his attitude. He seemed hostile. He seemed like
19 he had a chip on his shoulder. He seemed with us, but
20 he didn't seem to be with us, and I didn't want to
21 talk in front of him but Frank insisted on his presence.
22 And I said, "Oh, him again?"
23
Q
24
A
25
Q
Did Frank say anything else about him?
"He's a sharp quy."
Did he say he worked for the company or who he
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1
mrhh Lorenz 63
2
worked for?
3
A
11
He's one of us. " That is what he meant
when he said "He's one of us.
"
4
5
() Was Oswald part of the Operation 40?
h A Yes.
7
Q Was he part of the assassination group?
8 A Yes.
9 Q Did you know what his particular assignment
Ill was?
11
A No.
Q Did you ever--
A He was there and I   told that he was going
U to be used, in other words, at the right time, but
15 nobody went into detail. I just couldn't figure it
W out because of what his motive was about to kill
17 Castro, why. I really thought he was there we
lli were anti-Castroites, anti-Communist. He called him
19 an anti-Communist.
20
Q
21 A
22
Q
23 A
21 Q
25 A
Did you ever see Oswald with Mr. Boch?
Yes.
At same safe house?
No.
When?
In Iloch's house.
·L:THERN !JI':.111.1Cl CuUK;- REPORTERS, U.S.
FOLEY SQUARE. Nl W YVRK, N.Y -- 791-1020
1 mrhh Lorenz 64
2 Q \vhere?
3 A Some time between Augus t, 1963, and November.
4 Q Was there any conversation then?
5
A I was running from David Walters, who was
6 trying to eliminate me, who was my lawyer and the
7 general's lawyer, and I was going back to Frank.
8 Frank picked me up, and I started to talk about
9 Alex at midnight. I started to ask, "Where is
10 Alex? What happened to Alex?" I really wanted to be
11 with Frank to ask him where is Alex . He said Alex
12 was on a mission. "Alex is on a flight."
13 Alex and I had our own languaqe, we called
14 each other feather merchants, in other words, if he
15 was flying in guns or flying them out, or whatever.
16
Anyway, we were going that night to Boch's
17 house to discuss something, and I wasn't supposed
18 to tell anybody I was there that night, that's why
19 it was late at night. And he said "Wear black."
20 We always wore dark colors if we robbed a place or
21 ran guns. "
22
My mind wasn't there. My mind was on Alex,
~ my mind was on David w. Walters, who cut me off from
~ my daughter's trust fund, and it was on staying alive and
25
trying to organize my life .
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mrhh Lorenz 65
Q Did you ever see Oswald with Pedro Diaz
3 Lanz?
4 A They were all together in the house, in
5 Boch's house, Lanz, on this one night, and they were
6 discussing what I thouqht was an armory hit.
7
Q And what was it really, if you know?
~
A Maps, street maps of Dallas.
9
Q Did you see street maps of Dallas there?
10
A Yes.
11 Q Who was looking over the street maps of Dallas?
12
A Orlando Boch, Frank, Pedro, and there were
13
two brothers outside, outside in the car and Ossie
J.1 on the left. I don't know. It is a one room
15
Q
Do you know the name of the two brothers?
Iii
A No.
17
Q
Could it have been Novo or Norro?
18
A Something like that, it sounds familiar.
19 But they were mean.
20
Q Did you hear them say anything about the maps?
21
A They were circling places. They were street
?2
- maps, which wasn't anything usual to me because
23 I was used as a decoy when we hit armories. They were
24 circling places.
25
Q Do you know what places they circled?
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mrhh
Lorenz 66
A No, because they were sitting on the sofa.
3 They closed the jalousies, and I was sitting in a
4 rocking chair and Mrs. Bach would serve coffee, and
5 the kids were shut out of the room.
6 Q Did you hear them make any reference to
7 any particular places in Dallas?
H
A No, just ''Don't get a ticket, don't get
!J stopped," the usual. Just, "Don't get stopped
10 by traffic cops, " and "how many," the word "how many."
11 And they circled in red. They were street maps. I
  ~ thought it was an armory.
Q
Did you hear them mention the purpose
14 of the street maps in Dallas?
15
17
111
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
A Locations, they were talking about locations.
Q Did you hear them mention either
A I wasn't really listening.
Q
Did youhear them mention either Dealey
Plaza or the Texas School Book Depository or the
railroad yards?
A
Q
even was
A
Q
No, not that I remember.
Did they say anythincr about when this
supposed to occur?
November, it was close to November.
Dallas, in November?
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2
A Because -- yes. Because I was running
3 out of money I knew I had to get home somewhere
4 with my daughter, because my lawyer cut me off. And
5 I just kind of hung on, and I looked for Alex, and
6 I hung around Frank. I wanted Frank to go to Davi<1
7 Walters for me, the lawyer, to get my money back.
8
Q During this time, when you knew Oswald
somewhat, did you come to know what languages he spoke?
10
A I told him I spoke somebody told him I spoke
11 German fluently, and he said he did too, and I tested
  ~ him, and he did speak a little German, and, well,
1' and I was surprised. I remember that.
14
Q Any other languages?
1:i
A Spani<;h , a few words. I never had a long
16 conversation with him. I didn't like him. As little
17 as I knew of him I didn't like him. He was quiet
1H and he seemed to be under the wings of Frank.
19
Q How many different street maps of Dallas
20 did they have?
21
A About three or four. \Ve always had maps.
22
Q How do you know they were street maps
21 of Dallas?
24
A I heard them say it, and they put them out,
25 they spread them out on a glass table.
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1
mrhh Lorenz 68
2
0 Did they say that thr.y had an operation
3 planned in Dallas or some event planned in Dallas?
4
A Yes.
5 Q What did they say about it?
6
A It was a hit. To me it meant a hit on
7 an Army, a hit·on an Army-Navy store.
8
Q Did they ever use the word "hit" to mean
9
killing somebody?
10
A Yes.
11 Q So it could have meil.nt either?
12
A Either one, I guess. To me, when he agreed
13 that I should go, I was positive it was to hit
14 an Army.
15 Q Did you ever meet Jack Ruby before
W November, 1963?
17
A It is possible that I saw him with -- oh, God,
18 I am going to get killed.
19
Q
20
you say?
21
A
22
Q
23
24
question,
25
A
I'm sorry? We are on the record. What did
Charlie -- Charlie the Blade in Cuba.
Who is Charlie the Blade?
If you would prefer not to answer that
we can
Charlie
go off--
Tourini, Delmonica l'lhi te, who is
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mrhh Lorenz 69
2
a friend of mine.
0 But you are not sure then that you had
4
met Jack Ruby before November of 1963?
5
A In Cuba, in the casinos.
6
Q Are you sure?
7
A I am not positive, no. But I am sure
8 about somethinq else.
9 Q Would you care to tell us what that
10
something is? If you would prefer not to, we can
11
go on.
12
A He didn't like me eatinq my bologna
n sandwiches in Dallas. And I recognized him right
11 away; when I saw that thing on television I almost died.
lfi
Q You mean you recognized Jack Ruby as somebody
16 you had known before when you satv him on television?
17
A When we were in Dallas in the motel room
18 he came to the door of the motel. We were sitting
19 on the floor. I was sitting on the floor, they were
20 all over, there were two adjoining rooms, and he came
21 to the door to talk to Frank, and I didn't like his white
~ socks and his black suit. And he said, ''Who· the hell
:Z:l is she?"
24
Frank went out for food. Nobody was allowed
25 to go out, and that seemed stranqe to me and then
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2 especially when they brought guns in.
3 Q
Who did he say that to?
4
A He said that to Frank.
5 Q What did Frank say?
6 A ''Don't worry about it, she is with us. She
7 is good," and all that. And I -- I recognized him
8 right away when his picture was on TV afterwards.
9
Q We will get to that point in a couple of
10 minutes.
11 I want to ask you about a series of names,
and I want to ask you whether you ever knew of these
11 people in relation to either Frank Sturgis, E. Howard
1-1 Hunt, Lee Oswald, or the International Anti Communist
Brigade and Operation 40.
j(j
First, Anstaso Somoza.
17
A Tache Luis Sito? Luis Somoza?
lH Q Anstaso Somoza is the same as Luis Somoza?
19
A They were brothers.
20 Q Who is Luis Somoza?
21
A He has a son, Luis Sito.
22
Q How did you come to know them?
23
A Through people in I don't exactly
remember the first time; and then the second time in
1965 in New York I met -- he's the of Nicargua.
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1
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71
2 Q
Geraldine Shamma.
3 A No.
4
Q Rolando Cubela.
5 A
6
Q I don't know his nickname. Is that it?
7 A AM!l\-BH,, the CIA operative who is dead.
8
Q Did you know him in association with Frank
9
Sturgis?
10 A Very well, Frank, Fidel, Che, Camillo, very
11 well.
Q Who was he?
11 A He was a good guy. He's dead now. He worked
H for the -- he was with Fidel. lie was, I think,
15 in charge of the universities in Cuba, the Minister
16 of Education or the Minister of all the universities,
17 and he defected over to the company side and got killed.
1R I think his code name was  
19 Q Did you ever meet Rolando Cubela with
20 Howard Hunt, or know of any association between them?
21 A That I don't know for sure.
22
Q How about Jerry or James Buchanon?
23
A Yes, Jim Buchanon .
24 Q Let's take them separately, Jerry Buchanon,
26 do you know that name?
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mrhh Lorenz 72
2 A I am getting confused. Is one a reporter
3 for the Pompano Beach Sun?
4
Q Was that person associated with Frank Sturgis,
5 E. Howard Hunt or Lee Oswald?
A Yes, with Frank.
7
Q How?
A I don't know. They were just close. I
called him before I went to Fort Lee, New Jersey,
10
and I told him I just came back from Dallas. I said,
II "I am bombed out of Miami; I am qoing to get killed
12 here." I said, ''Defore I do get killed, I am picking
up my baby," who I left with a baby sitter while
14
I went to Dallas, "and I am going home to Fort Lee,
15 I am going to my mother's.'' I said, ''I will start
]{)
over, somehow, with nothinq."
17
And I did call him.lle is a reporter. In fact,
lS •
he's got p1ctures and everything about --of me, my
19 daughter, during the extradition proceedings. He was
20 a friend; he gave me some friendly warnings to get
21 out of town before I got killed.
22
Q
Juan
2.3
A Juan
24
Q Juan
25
A Yes,
Francisco Blanco-l!ernandez.
Francisco Blanco? I have to see pictures.
Orta.
I know that name.
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mrhh
Lorenz· 73
2
Q l'lho is that?
3
A He is an anti-- Juan Orta? He was a Castro--
4 anti-Castro -- he is pretty biq. I don't connect him,
5 though, but I do know the name.
6
0 Do you know whether he i.s connected with
7 Frank Sturgis?
A Yes, Juan Orta, yes.
Q How?
10
A Just by association with Frank and Alex
11 Rorke, too.
12
Q
You saw them together?
l:l A Yes.
14
Q Homer Echevarria.
15 A Echevarria. I used to know a Carmen Echevarria.
lG Q Bernard Barker, otherwise known as Macho.
17
A I know the name from reading Watergate.
lli Is that the same one?
19 Q
I am asking you whether you ever knew that
~ person in relation to Frank Sturgis, E. Howard Hunt
21 or Lee Harvey Oswald.
22
A I am positive I know i.t from reading after
23 Watergate, but before that I am not sure. I would have
~ to see his picture again.
25 Q
Victor Panque.
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1 mrhh
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74
2 A I have to see his picture.
3
Q Blaney Mack Johnson.
4
A He was an American soldier of fortune,
5 yes, Johnson, Johnson, I know Johnson. Whatever
6
happened to John Martino?
7
Q He's next on my list.
H
A John 1·1artino, no kidding.

Q
John Martino, who is he?
A Good friend. Very close to Hunt, very
11 close to Frank.
12
Q Did you see .them together?
A Yes.
1-l
Q Many times?
15
A Many times.
Q What was his job?
17
A Running guns, the whole thing.
18
Q Thomas Mosley.
19
A That name sounds familiar, but --
20
Q All right, let's go on. Max Gonzalez.
21
A Yes, I know the name.
22
Q
Did you ever see him with Frank Sturgis,
23
E. Howard Hunt or Lee Harvey
24
A That's the only way I would meet them was througl.
ry•
-° Frank Sturgis, Frank Fiorini, all these people.
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1 mrhh Lorenz 75
2 Q William  
3 A Pawley, a company man.
.j Q I just want to see whether you know these
5 individuals and how you know them. I realize we don't
6 have pictures for you at this time.
7
A It's a long time and there were a lot of men
8
that are dead, too.
H
Q Mitch Werbell.
10
A No.
11 Q Dick l'lha tley.
12
A Richard \'/hatley, FBI.
1:l
MR. WEBBERMAN: DEA now. He's working
Jcj
for the DEA now.
15
THE WITNESS: That's nothing. I know an FBI
Hi
man who is selling my pictures.
17
Q During the summer and fall of
1963'
18
was this the time that you were living around Miami
19 and working with the safe houses and the anti-Castro
20 groups?
21
A I was, after the general left. The general
22
bought me an apartment in Bay Park Towers, Bay Park,
23
Bay Park Towers. David Walters took that away from me.
From then I was in one place after the other with my baby:
25 safe house, Fran.k's house, Orlando's house, motel, hotel,
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mrhh Lor!'r1.7.
76
2 whatever, as I was running out of money.
3 Q
\'/here Has Frank livinq then?
4 A I don't know. I never kept close.
5 Q !!OW often would yon see Frank during that
6 time?
7
A Those three months, 11retty often.
Q Couple of times a week?
A About two, three times a week, yes, because
10 he was keeping tabs on me. llf' knew.
11
Q
l-Ias Operation 40 still at work at that
12 time, in the fall and summer of 1963?
l 'l
A Oh, yes.
Q
Here you and Frank both involved in working
15 along with Operation 40 at that time?
lG
A Yes. Even though I had left to live with
17 the general and have a baby, I was still a member and
lR still the only qirl.
19
Q Did you or Frank or anyone else in that
  organization witness the visit of President Kennedy
21 to Miami in the late summer, early fall of 1963?
22
A Not me.
23
Q Do you know of anyone else mentioning
  that visit of the President?
A Yes, Frank mentioned it, yes, because it was
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•-
mrhh Lorenz 77
·• Robert Kennedv, tl1e l>roker, who was in charge of the
3 extradition. So the Kennedvs were on my mind. And
4 Frank said that -- well, there was bad words about
5 the Kennedys.
6 Q What did he sav? We understand that you
7 are quoting what Frank said, hut what did he say?
8 A "Son of a bitch, rat bastard,'' about
U John F. I said -- he said, "You qot enough reason
]()
II II
to hate the blank blank Kennedvs too, because Bobbv
11 is extraditing your man."
Q Did he say anything at that time about
l:l Kennedy being killed?
14 A That he should be. lie   said that.
lii Q
!!ow many times did you hear him say that?
lG A I thought he was -just bragging·
17
0
How many times did you hear him say it?
18 A Four, five times.
19 Q vlhat were the activities of the International
20 Anti Communist Brigade at that time, summer and
21 fall of '63?
22
A At that time, smugqling guns into Cuba via
23 the Bahamas, No Name Kev, Sod in Key. Frank had
a source within Cuba where he would get information
on bringing out, for a price, Cubans.
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1 mrhh Lorenz
78
2 Still at that time, Alex, before he disappeared
3 I think the last thing he did was ram a freighter,
4 Soviet freighter, and got in trouble because it was
5 in British waters or something. And we did gun running.
6 I stole boats.
7 Q Was the assassination group in Operation 40
still operating at that time?
A Yes.
10
Q Was there anybody special who visited Miami
11 and visited your group who wasn't a usual member and
12 fall of 1963?
13
A I don't remember.
14
Q Did Mr. Sturgis ever tell you about any
);)
visits he made to Dallas in November of 1963, aside
Hi
from November 22, 1963? Did he tell you about
17
any other visits to Dallas?
18
A Yes, that they have a gun connection in Dallas,
19
gun connection. I mean that's we IIP!'!nt half the
20
time in cars coming and going.
21
Q Did you visit Dallas during November of 1963?
22
A Yes.
23
Q Did Frank ever tell you anything about
24
his purpose in visiting Dallas, aside from the trip
25 which you believed to be a hit upon an Army, and did he
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1 mrhh
Lorenz
79
2 tell you the purpose of his other trips?
3 A No. lie had to see some people.
4 Q Did he ever tell you that he was in Chicago
5 in November of 1963?
6 A No.
7
Q When was it first mentioned to you that you
H and Frank and your group would be traveling from Miami
9 to Dallas in late November, 1963?
A Oh, that was about a day before we would
11 actually leave. l!e wouldn't let anybody know, you know.
12 I said, "Give me some notice so I can get the baby
13 sitter lined up," because I had a child. I couldn't
14 afford her. It was a weekend that she took it, my
15 baby, home. It's the only time I could leave her
16 with this baby sitter, that I can't find now anywhere,
17 because I couldn't pay her, and she had another job.
18 Q
19
be going
20 A
21 Q
22
A
23 Q
24 A
Q
Who was it who first told you that you would
to Dallas?
Frank.
What did he tell you about going to Dallas?
We will take a trip to Texas.
Did he tell you why?
"We got a big job to do.
"
Did he tell you what the big job was?
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mrhh
Lorenz
80
A Not in detail, no.
3
Q In general?
4
A I took it for granted that it would be an
5
Army hit because I would go along because I was always
6
the decoy. I would, if we got stopped by the police
7
in cars loaded down with guns, I would have to play
the part of being the newly wed, that we were drunk,
9
driving too fast or something so that they didn't
10
search the trunk.
11
I saved them many times.
12
Q On this trip to Dallas were you pulled over
by any policemen?
 
A No, they were super cautious not to get
15
stopped, not even a traffic ticket, nothing.
Hi
Q Between the time that Frank first told you
17
that you would be going to Texas and the day you actually
l8 left, what else, if anything, was said about the trip
19 or the purpose?
20
A That it was the biggest job he was going to
21 d
o. "It was a big job, one of the biggest." And I just
22
didn't question it.
23
Q else knew that you were going aside from
you and members of Frank's group and the baby sitter?
25
A My two baby sitters, Willie May Taylor and
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1 mrhh Lorenz 81
2
Lillie Ann Green. They took care of us with food
3 and took care of my daughter because I was cut off.
4
My two baby sitters knew, I think. Hell, our immediate
5 group -- a girl, Robin Cardin, whose father was shot
6 or supposedly committed suicide.
Robin Cardin, or
7 I could have told -- I think I did tell "Ma •" at the
8 time her name was Margarita Flaquer.
Q F-1-a-q-u-e-r?
10 A Yes. And her maiden name is Margarita Allison.
11 And she is just -- I tried to find her. She lives
12 at Long Boat Key in Florida now, and is married
J:J to a Mr. MiCkey-- Mr. Case, and she has five
14 little boys. And I can't find her either. All three
1:1 disappeared.
Q Did all of the members of your group with
17 Frank know about the trip to Texas?
lR A The ones -- all of us in the car, yes.
19
Q But did all of the other members in the
20 group know about the trip to Texas?
21 A
I think I was the last one, because I was
22
the one that was picked up the last because I had the
23
24
25
baby problem
-- to the trip
--
planning it than
I was just going along because I wanted to talk to
Frank and get out of Miami.
S', •UTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
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I was.
mrhh
Lorenz
82
2
Q
At the time that Frank told you that you
3 would be going to Texas, was Ossie in Miami? Was he
4 there with you?

5
A Yes, with Frank.
6
Q Who went?
7
A The two brothers.
8
Q The same two brothers you mentioned before?
D
A Yes. And Jerry Patrick Hemming, Frank, Pedro
Ill Diaz Lanz, Ossie, myself, Boch.
11
Q How many cars did you take?
12
A Two.
13
Q
Whose cars?
14
A "Company" cars they were called. Beat up,
15 black or green Chevy, I think they were.
16
Q
Is that the car you rode in?
17
A Yes.
1R
Q Who else rode in your car?
19
A I don't know, it was a lousy ride; it was
20
hot. It was
--
Frank -- I was with Frank. I didn't
21
want to sit with Ossie. I didn't want to go in his car.
22
Q Only you and Frank?

23
A No, me and Frank and the two brothers
  and I think Boch in the front seat. I was sitting in back
25 on the window side.
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l mrhh
Lorenz 83
2
Q
You mean the side away from the driver?
3
A In the back, yes.
4
Q For the whole trip?
5
A Mostly, that was my place, yes. "No phone
6
calls, no newspapers,'' that's what we were told.
7
Q Do you remember what year or model that car
8
might have been?
9
A It was a beat up car, and they had guns
10
in the back, and they had airline bags in the back
11
andrain gear., guerrilla gear, a jack for flat tires,
12
and spare tires, and it was loaded down with stuff.
I'J
Q Do you know what year car it might have been?
14
A No.
15
Q Would it have had big tail fins or could
it have been the small compact model?
17
A Big tail fins, what does that mean?
18
Q That's a 1959. I am sdmply trying to identify
19 as closely as we can what it might have been.
20
21
22
23
24
25
A That is -- there were two cars: one black
and one like green.
Q
A
Q
A
Did you say light green or green?
Like green, a greenish color.
Which were you in?
A green.
:, 'UlHERN l)lJ'JRICT COI;i\1 RJ;!'I)RlERS, U.J. COURTHOU5E
FOLEY JQUARI.:. f,'l:.\',' YURK. N.Y. - 791-1020


1
mrhh Lorenz 84
•)
Q Both Chevrolets?
3 A I am not sure.
4 Q Were they old cars?
5
A More or less, yes.
6
Q Four doors in your car or two?
7
A Four.
8
Q I know because it would have been a pain
to go in and out. We stopped sometimes.
10
Q I realize you probably wouldn't remember.
11 Let me ask perhaps whether you might remember
12 whether the car you were driving in would have a name
1:1 on it like a Beliire or an Impala or a Del Ray?
1-1
A I never was any good at cars.
1 ;j
Q Okay, well, let's forget about that then.
16
A Just blankets in the back.
17
Q Did both cars have Florida plates?
18
A I know one did; I am not sure about the other.
19
Q
Which one?
20
A We had our own gasoline, too.
21
Q
You brought your own gasoline?
22
A Yes.
23
Q Did Frank say why?
24
We were -- he had these Army cans, and they
25 were in the trunk. I don't know why.
A
DlSTIUCl REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOL
1
SE
FOLEY   NEW YORK. N.Y - 79!.\020

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l mrhh Lorenz 85
Q Did Frank explain anything or did anybody
3 explain anything about the travel plan, that is,
4 were the two cars supposed to stay together?
5
A Yes.
6 Q All the time?
7 A All the time.
8 Q Did they make a plan for where they would
9 rendezvous in the event they got separated on the
10 road, were they would meet?
11
A No.
12 Q Did you stop for food?
l:l A Yes.
14
Q
In a restaurant?
15 A At these places where they stick the trays
16 on the side of the cars.
17 Q You mean a car hop?
18 A Yes.
19 Q
What day and what date was it, if you remember,
20 when you left Miami?
21 A I don't know exactly, but I know one thing.
22 It had to be -- it was on a weekend, because the
23 baby sitters had other jobs.
24 Q November 22nd, if I am correct, was a Friday.
25 Would you have left Hiami the weekend before Friday,
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FOLEY SQUARE. N[W YORK. N.Y. - 79!-!020


mrhh Lorenz 86
2 November 22nd, or could it have been two or three
3 weeks before?
4
A I don't know exactly what weekend, but
5 it was a weekend, because otherwise she wouldn't have
6 watched my daughter.
7
Q How many days did you travel before getting
8 to Dallas?
A They drove straight through two, two and a
Ill half. We left at night and we arrived at night. I
11 remember seeing a sign, "Welcome to Dallas, "a blue-
12 green sign in a restaurant. I slept a lot. I didn't
J:l walk around or stop or go into any restaurants because
H the food was brought to us.
lS Q They only stopped at the kind of place
]() where somebody would bring food to your car?
\7
\H
\9 for
20
21
22
23
24 they
25
A A diner, a cheap truck stop diner like.
Q Do you remember how many times you stopped
food?
A About every five, six hours.
Q
So that would be five or six times?
A Yes.
Q Did they fill the gas tanks out of the gas
brought with them or did they stop at gas stations?
A Both.
  DISI'IUCT COUKf REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-!020
·-

1 mrhh Lorenz 87
2
Q When they stopped at gas stations they paid
3 cash?
4
A Yes.
5
Q Did they make any repairs to the cars on
n the trip?
7 A Flat tire, Frank did.
Q Frank changed it to the spare?
A Yes.
10 Q Did he have the one that had gone flat
11 repaired?
12 A I don't know. It was thrown in the trunk.
13 Q Who sat where, if you know, in the other
14 car?
15 A I don't know. I just knew that the lights
Hi were always behind us and that they were following.
U I don't know exactly.
18 Q I show you a road map of Florida. Now,
19 you tell us you started from Miami here on the map.
20 would you recall traveling up the east coast of
21 Florida, through Jacksonville, or did you go through
22 the center of Florida on Route 27 and Route 25?
23 A Yes, I think this way, because we went through
  the interior. I would have known this, Sunshine State
25 Parkway, isn't it?
) ,UfHEH.r>J D!S'fR!CT COUI\J !iLI'ORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQL'ARE, UE\'/ YORK, N.Y. - 7J!-!020
1
:2
:3
4

5
6
7
9
10
11
12
13
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22

23
24
25
mrhh
Lorenz 88
Q Right.
A Which is along this coast. We went this way,
in the middle.
Q
Do you remember anybody mentioning getting
off Route 25 towards Tallahasse and heading west?
A No. But I know when we went up further we would
drop off rebels in a camp, intensive training in the
Carolinas.
Q Getting back to this November, '63, trip,
do you remember any reference to passing through
Tallahasse or Pensacola?
A Yes. Capital, isn't that the capital
of Florida, capital?
Q Do you remember passing through Pensacola
or Mobile, Alabama? If you don't, that's okay, just
say no, but we have to put it on the record.
A I slept. I was dead.
Q Do you remember anybody mentioning
--
A I wasn't dead. I was dead tired. It's not
easy traveling in a car.
Q Do you remember traveling through New Orleans,
Baton Rouge or Jackson, Mississippi?
A
No, I don't know, I don't know. We just kept
going until we got there. I was glad when we got there.
~ ·   1UTHEltN D l ~ IIUCT COlJ!t f REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQU/\RE. i'd:W YOI\.K, N.Y - 791-1020


1 mrhh
Lorenz
Q Do you remember anybody mentioning passing
3 through Shreveport or the Mississippi?
4 A Yes, the Mississippi.
5 And it's snowing outside.
6
Q
Who said something about it?
7 A The Mississippi.
s
Q Do you remember it?
9
A Yes, I wanted to jump in. It was hot.
10 Q What did Frank say?
11 A "Go ahead."
12
Q Do you remember then passing through
1:l Shreveport?
14
A No.
15
Q Or could you have passed through Houston?
1G
A Houston?
17
Q Yes.
lH
A Houston. Houston, I know that, because my
19 father was supposed to bring in ships there.
20 Q
Did you pass through Houston?
21
A Yes.
22
Q
And then up to Dallas from Houston?
Z:J
A
Yes. Houston, I know, because we almost
  lived there once, my family.
25
Q
Do you remember any particular conversations
\· •UTHERN D!JTIUCT (OlliU !tEPOIUERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY )QUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 79\.\020
89

••
mrhh Lorenz 90
2 in the car?
A Food.
4
Q Did they talk about what they were going
5 to do in Dallas?
{)
A No.
7
Q
Did they talk about what their jobs were
8
in this operation?
9
A No. Just "When we get there nobody goes
10
out, no papers, no broads."
11
Q Do you remember the weather on the trip?
12
A Not too nice. I don't think it was too nice.
It wasn't pouring, it wasn't snowing.
14
Q Did you say that Mr. Boch and Mr. Lanz
1.5 were in your car?
A Boch, Orlando was.
17
Q
Do you remember any conversation between
1
H Mr. Boch and Mr. Sturgis in their car ride?
A They didn't talk too much. In fact, nobody
20
talked too much, that is what got me so suspicious.
21
22
23
24
25
I mean I guess everybody was hot and tired and it was
a crummy car, no air conditioning.
Q
A
Q
Who was the leader of the group?
Frank.
Do you know who paid Frank,
who paid for
St,lJTHERt" DlSTR!CT COUit-• Rti'UIUERS, U.S COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N."{ - 791-1020
the


1
mrhh Lorenz 91
2 trip?
3 A Well, the -- he always got the envelopes.
4
Q Do you mean from Eduardo?
5 A Yes.
()
Q Do you know that Eduardo paid for the trip,
7 or do you only assume that because he was bringing
H the envelopes?
9
A I assume that. I didn't see him pay Frank the
HI day we left, no, because I was with the baby, but
11 I was under the impression. And Frank told me -- I
12 asked Frank, "Who is going to pay for this, it's a long
" one.
Because you know if we hit a place we wouldn't
11 go too far out of Miami, you know, to steal weapons
or boats, but this is a long one. And he said, "The
W same people, same company. "
17
Q Do you remember what clothing you brought
1R along?
19
A Dungarees, sweatshirt, boots. Because --
20 dark, a dark shirt, which I died of the heat in the
21 daytime, a sweatshirt.
22
Q
Do you remember whether either of the cars
had bumper stickers on them, political stickers? Could
24 you have seen any?
25
A
Ithink there was, but I don't remember for
l!THFHN COUP, I' !\EPVRlERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY NE\V 'J'VRK. i" Y. -  
1 mrhh
Lorenz
92
2 whom or for what. Dut there was a \Cali" nini Mi!cim±w-
3
Q Of the two cars you went to Dallas with.
4
A One of the cars, a green car, had a sticker
5
on it.
6
Q
Could it have been a Goldwater for presidency
7
sticker?
8
A Could be.
9
Q But you don't remember?
10
A I know because Frank was talking to my girl-
11
friend Robin Cardin. She was sitting in the back of the
12
car.
13
Q You mentioned that there were guns in the
14
cars. How many guns?
15
A Four rifles.
16
Q
Do you know what kind of rifles?
17
A Good ones, the best.
18
Q What's the best?
19
A The automatics.
20
Q
Would you recognize the kind of weapon if
2
1
you saw a similar weapon?
22
A I guess so. I didn't look closely. In fact,
23
I was confused because why would they bring guns if
  we were going to take guns.
25
Q
Did you see ammunition?
SuUTHERN DIHRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S COURTHOUSE
FOLEY )QlJARE. I':EW YORK. NY - 791-1010
XX
1 mrhh Lorenz 93
2 A Yes.
3
Q
I show you an exhibit, which I will ask
4 to have marked for identification, which is labeled
5 Commission Exhibit No. 1303, and I ask you whether this
6 looks like the kind of gun that they had in the cars.
7 A Yes.
8 Q Take a good look.
9
A Yes, with a scope.
10 Q Did you see scopes in the car?
11 A a scope, yes.
12 Q How many scopes?
13 A I think two.
14
Q So there were four guns but only two scopes
15 that you saw?
16 A I saw. I don't know what they had in the
17
bag, in the plastic, in the airline bag. They looked
18 like this. This looks like the type weapon I stole.
19
Q Are you familiar with the different kinds
20 of automatic rifles?
21
A Not really, not that well, only in boxes
wrapped in green oilskin paper when I stole them,
arms, military gear, you know.
24
25
(Document marked Defendants' Exhibit 6 for
identification.)
•   DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. !'.EW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020


1
mrhh Lorenz 94
2
Q
Did they have any walkie talkies or radio
3 communication?
4 A Always.
5
Q
How many did you see in the car?
6
A Four.
7
Q
In your car?
8
A Frank-- I know of four. I know Frank had
9 one, Pedro had one and the two brothers had the
Ill other two, I think, I am not positive about that.
11 Always walkie talkies.

Q Any other radio devices?
A Yes, long range radios -- what do they
II
call them? Transceivers.
15
Q How many?
Hi
A One transceiver .. They had transatlantic
17
transceivers and, like,station radios, wireless
IH station, the same we used in the Everglades when we
19 were training in the camp, when he would radio into Cuba.
20
21
any

2:.1
24
them
25
Q Did you see or did you hear them mention
credent ials or identification?
A
Q
on
A
Frank always had different credentials.
Did you see on that trip or did you hear
that trip mention anything about credentials?
A detective's -- he was -- a detective's
  DJ:,rRtCI CC1:;k! t:::PC:.KTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
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mrhh Lorenz 95
2 ID shield, a shield, detective shield.
3
Q Who had?
4 A Frank, in a black case.
5
Q Did you see any old clothes in the car?
fi
A Yes, always.
7
Q
Where?
8
A In the trunk.
9
Q On this particular trip?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Just thrown loosely in the trunk?
12
A Yes, dirty clothes. Many times when we
1:1
arrived from a boat we were -- we were -- you know,
II
from a run we would be soaking wet. There would always
l:i be extra clothing to change.
Q Can you describe the old clothes that you saw
17 in the back of the car?
18
A Just civilian wear, not rebel, not military
19 garb.
20
Q
I show you page 211 of the book Coup d'etat
21 in America, featuring three gentlemen dressed in old
22
23
24
25
clothes, and I ask you whether you can recognize
any of the clothes.
A The
Q
Yes.
clothes?
'\. lJTI!UtN l'Jl'l\ r RLI'ORTERS, US. COL'RTHOU'>F
FOLEY   Nl.:W YURt\.. N.Y - 791-1020

•-
mrhh Lorenz 96
A The jackets -- Frank "ore like that. He had
3 an extra jacket like that.
4
5
7
9
]()
11

13
14
15
Hi
17
1tl
Hl
211
21
22
23
24
·r
-"
Q
In the car?
A Yes. I don't know if that's the jacket,
but he had a jacket and they had extra pants large
enough -- because they were kidding, if it didn't fit
one it would fit another.
Q So these were large baggy pants?
A Yes.
Q Were there more than one pair of pants?
A Yes.
Q Was there a light colored one and a dark
colored one, or don't you remember?
A I don't remember.
Q Any rubber gloves in the car?
A Yes.
Q How many pairs?
A Asbestos and rubber gloves, because we handled
explosives and electricity.
Q
would use
A
Q
A
Did anybody say anything about how they
those gloves or for what?
No.
Did they have any old shoes in the car?
Yes.
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mrhh Lorenz
97
2
Q \ ~ h e r e  
~ A Boots.
4 Q
Where?
5 A Military regulation boots and shoes, regular
6 shoes, because if we were doing a job we would have
7 to dress one way; if we were to blend in we would
8 have to dress another way.
Q Was there anything in the car that you were
to not allowed to see?
11 A Yes.
12
Q Do you know
A In the blue bag, in a blue airline bag.
1·1 I went to open it lvhen we were in a motel.
Q Which motel, in Dallas?
16
A In Dallas. And I went to open it -- no,
17 Ossie opened it to get something; one of them went
18 to the bathroom. I wanted to get to the bathroom
19 first. And when I went to the bathroom they had
20 the regular stuff there, shaving stuff for men and things.
21 But Frank said, "Shut that damn bag." And my feelings
22 were hurt because I didn't do anything.
23
Q
So you still don't know what was in that bag?
24
A He didn't want anybody to know what was in
25 the bag except Ossie.
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1 mrhh Lorenz 98
2 Q But Ossie knew what was in the bag?
3
A He could go into the bag.
4 Q Did ossie know what was in the bag?
5
A Yes, he went all through it.
Q But you weren't allowed to see it?
7
A No.
8
Q Were the other people allowed to see it?
A I don't know. I would assume so if they asked
10 Frank.
11
Q Now, when you got to Dallas you mentioned

that the first thing you saw was a big sign, I think
1 ·;
you said blue or green.
A Yes.
lG
Q That said Welcome to Dallas?
A Yes.
17
Q Do you remember at that time any discussion
1
8 about where you would be staying?
19
A Motel.
20
Q
Did they say which motel?
21
A No.
22
Q
Do you remember which motel?
2.3
A Yes; I can draw it, but I don't know were
it was. On the outside of Dallas.
25
Q
Do you knm1 the name of it?
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mrhh Lorenz 99
2 A I don't recall. It was at night.
3 Q Can you describe it? When you say you can
4 draw it, can you describe it for us?
5
A I can draw the room because there were two
6 adjoining rooms. Frank took the rooms.
7 Q Who stayed in each room?
8
A We backed up. There is where they started to
9
pick on me because I was a girl. I wasn't out in the
10
Glades any more; I wasn't in a camp where it was
11
a sleeping bag. I was in a room now, a motel room
12
with men and this is what they objected to.
13
Q
Who objected?
14
A Ossie and Bach. They just didn't like
15 my presence there. I could feel it.
Q Who was in which room?
17
A Well, Frank was in the other adjoining
18 room, and I was in one room with Bach; they had doors
19 going through, two big double beds, and it was a
20 problem who was going to sleep where, me being the
21
22
23
24
25
girl I was supposed to have the whole bed, which
cut somebody else out. And they -- I don't know, they
were walking back and forth and Frank went out for
food. He took
other words, he
the -- he made the reservation.
made
--
he paid them.
·,   DlSJRICT COURT KEPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY NEW YOKK. N.Y. - 791-llllU
In
1 mrhh
Lorenz
100
2 He got out of the car first and then we
3 backed in, and there was gravel in the back, in the
4 back of the motel there was gravel. And we just backed
5 the car in and walked in the room.
6
0
How many days did you stay at that motel
7 after you arrived?
8
A Just one.
9
Q What happened then?
10
A I couldn't get to Frank, he was too pre-
11 occupied with plans. I wanted to talk to him about
12 Alex, and I wanted him to help me get my money back
13 from David. My mind really wasn't there. And the
14 secrecy of it, and why the guns, and I started
~ to ask too many questions and I got dirty looks. I
16 was in the way, and Frank said, "You know, you better
TI go home. You better" -- "You are getting in the way.
W You are in the way. I don't mind but the other guys" --
19 he says the whole thing, the sleep arrangements, "You
20 are the girl, you are the girl." I said, .. I don't
21 care." I said, "I will go home."
22
Q
Do you know why they br ought you along in
23 the first pJ.ace?
24
A
No. Frank just said come along because
25 I think he wanted to make sure nothing happened to me
~   >UTHERN DIS1 RICl COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y - 791-1020
1 mrhh Lorenz
101
2 in Miami because I was hit by a car.
3 He sent me back.
4
Q
Did Frank always go out for food; was he
5 always the one that went to get the food?
6
A He went to get the food, bologna sandwiches,
7
mayonnaise, mustard, all that stuff . Nobody was
8
supposed to make any phone calls.
9
Q When was it that the man you later recognized
10 as Jack Ruby came to the motel?
11 A A couple of hours afterwards.
l2
Q
After you got there?
13
A Yes. And I remember saying, "What are
14
we going to hit, Fort Knox?"
15
Q \.1\'lhY did you say that?
16
A Because the secrecy of it. And they didn't
n answer. It just was -- I just felt uneasy. I said,
18 "You know, what a pain in the neck this long trip is."
19 I said, "If you can't help me, then I am going to my
20 mother."
21
Q
22
A
23
Q
24
A
25
Q
And is that where you went?
Yes.
Who drove you to the airport?
Frank.
In which car?
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mrhh
Lorenz
102
2 A The green car, alone.
3 Q Which airline did you fly, if you remember?
4 A (No response)
5
Q Where did you fly to?
G
A The State Department asked me that too.
7
Q Where did you fly to?
8
A To Miami, right to Miami. And they even
9
asked me the name I used. I don't remember. At that
10
time I used the name Jimenez, Lorenz, Perez, you know.
11
Q When was it that the State Department
12
asked you about that?
]'' ,,
A Before Frank came up.
14
Q Before Frank came up where?
IG
A To New York.
10
Q So about when would that be?
17
A About two months before halloween.
18
Q Of this year?
19
A Yes.
20
Q In the course of your conversation here today
21
I have shown you a number of pictures from the book
22
Coup d'etat in America. I am wondering when is the
23
first time you ever saw any of those pictures?
24
A
The first time I saw them was a couple of
?"
  months ago when I was given the book.
Dl::.TIUCT COURT REPORTI:RS. U.!:!. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARl:.. YORK. NY. - 7'11-111?0


mrhh Lorenz 103
2
Q By whom?
3
A By A.J. Webberman after I was in the papers.
4 He had the book sent to me •
5
Q And that was after you were in the New York
6
papers, in the New York Daily News?
7
A Yes.
8
Q And that story concerned what you had to say
9
about --
10
A The Dallas trip.
11
Q Your Dallas trip, is that right?
12
A Yes.
13
Q When was the first time you met Mr. Webberman?
14
A A couple of weeks, or maybe a month and
15 a half or so after that I met him for the first time.
16 And I said --
17
Q
Could that have been around ~   some time
18 around September or October of 1977?
19
A Yes. Later maybe, yes.
20
Q
Let me ask the question again if you are
._,,
unclear.
22
A I don't remember the exact date.
23
Q
To the best of your knowledge, about
24
when was the first time you met Mr. Webberman? Was
25
it after the halloween incident?
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1 rnrhh Lorenz 104
2 A Yes, it was.
3 Q
Where were you on November 22, 1963?
4
A Oh, God, I was in an airplane, Eastern Airlines
5
corning from Miami going to Idlewild Airport. And
ti
we couldn't land because the co-pilot carne out -- I
7
was sitting with my daughter, and he carne out and he
H
said "Ladies and gentlemen, our President has been
9
shot. "
10
Q Where were you on the way to?
11
A I was on the way to New York from Miami
12
with my daughter, going horne. I wanted to land at
13
Idlewild, but instead I landed in Newark because
14
of the outgoing traffic to Texas, of the people going
15
to Texas.
Q How long was it that you were in Miami
17 from the time you got from Dallas to Miami, and then
18
some
19
was
20
21
22
23
2-1
2S
days later you went to New York? About how
it that you were there?
A I don't know exactly. Days, maybe not.
Q Could
A Maybe,
Q Could
A I know
Q Could
it have been as long as a week?
yes.
it have been as long as a month?
I picked up my daughter.
it have been as long as a month?
'illHr:H.N U l ~     U L f CUUR! /U:l'ORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
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1
120
long
mrhh
Lorenz lOS
2 A I don't know exactly, but it wasn't too
3 long after that. I didn't have any money. And I know
4 on the 22nd where I was. I was in a plane.
5
Q How long after that airplane ride when the
6
announcement of the President's shooting was made,
7
how long after it was it when you first spoke to Frank
8
Sturgis /Fiorini?
9
A I lost complete contact with him until the day
10 my case agent, Al Chestone, walked into my house
11
when I was married to Louis Yurasits in 1976 with
12
the Watergate picture of him. And I said, "That ' s
13
not Frank Sturgis, that's Frank Fiorini; and that's
14
not Mr. Hunt, that's Mr. -- it could be Mr. Hunt,
l5 but it's Eduardo to me."
16
Q
17
contact
18
A
19
Q
20
Sturgis
21
A
22
Q
23
A
24
Q
25
A
And so from 1963 until 1976 you had no
with Frank Sturgis?
No.
How many times have you spoken to Mr.
then, since 1976, since and including 1976?
What was that now?
How many times
Since 1976'?
Yes.
Weeekly.
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mrhh Lorenz 106
2 Q You mentioned 1976, hut could it have been
3 earlier? Watergate occurred in 1972, and the
4 pictures would have been published soon after that?
A Well, there is one particular newspaper
I have at home. It is a group photograph with his
7
lawyer up here. That's -- I didn't follow politics.
H
I didn't care about Watergate, I wasn't interested.
Yes, it could have been much later. But
\()
there was this one group photograph in the New York
ll
Times with his lawyer --what's Frank's lawyer up here?
12
I don't know, Rothblatt? It's a picture, it's a group
l
.,
,,
photograph. That's what the agent put down on my dining
1
4 room table. And that's when I said -- I never really
lf> paid attention to the Watergate. I am not interested
1G in politics, really. And it just dawned on me that's
17 Frank Fiorini. I can give you the exact date, because
18 that' s the date
HI
Q What's the date?
20
A I don't know. I am not sure. It was during
21 the time I worked for the FBI when I was married to
22
24
25
Yurasits.
It was before the articles came out about
me killing
attempting to kill Fidel. That was
'77. It could have been '76.
Q During the 13 years
~   L:l HERN D I ~ T K I C I COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOU)E
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mrhh Lorenz
107
2
A Or '5, I am not sure.
3
Q
During the 13 years from 1963 through 1976,
4 did you have other espionage assignments for the

5 United States Government?
6 A Yes.
7
Q
What did they include? And by that, I want
8 you to understand that I am not asking for every
9 assignment, but only a general outline of your work.
10 A Get close to a Soviet KGB agent, a general,
11 I can't mention his name because he's still around.
12
Q That's all right.
A And entrap him with photographs for future
14 use, for a possible U-2 type exchange.
Li Q
When was the first time you again spoke
16 to Frank Sturgis?
17 A He was in Danbury State Penitentiary, and
1H I wanted to ask him about Alex. I still wanted to
19 ask him about Alex. So my husband at the time, Louis,
20 drove to the Danbury State Fair with the kids, my
21 children.
22
Q Ms. Lorenz, I show you a document which I

will ask to have marked for identification, and I
2"1 ask you what that is.
25 A There is an old expression, "Don't embarass
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1
mrhh Lorenz 108
2 the bureau."
3 Q Not in my family there isn't.
4 A When my life is on the line, I don't have
5 much choice. This is marked personal and confidential
6 and signed by John F. Malone, and I was never to show
7 it to anybody.
8
Q
Without showing it to me, can you describe
9 what it is?
10
A It's a commendation, citation, from the United
11 States Department of Justice, Federal Bureau of
Investigation that I got for working in the best
13 interest of the government .
14
Q
What is the date on that document?
15
A The date is October 29, 1971 .
16
Q Without again asking you to show me this
17
document, may I ask what it was you did to earn this
18 document, if you can tell us?
19
A I collected garbage, and among this garbage
20 in the compactor room was an Albanian code, and
21 this code was very valuable, was sent -- I stuck
it together with Scotch tape for three months, and
it was sent to the Justice Department and delivered,
and it turned out that the Albanian Mission were trans-
mitting to t hree miles out of the United States
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1 mrhh Lorenz 109
.,
shore line.
3 I also worked for the Soviets.
·l
Q Did you say for the Soviets?
5
A Oh, no. For the FBI, giving them information
6
on the movements of 36 Russian families.
7
Q The first time then that you had seen Frank
8
Sturgis since 1963 was when you visited him at Danbury,
9
is that correct?
]()
A No, I didn't get to see him there because
11 I almost got arrested.
12
Q For?
13
A Just wanting to say hello, because it took
14
me quite a while to convince my husband to get me
15
to drive up to the state penitentiary. When I got up
there a guard said he locked the door behind me,
17
too. He said that he had just been transported to
18 washington, D.C., to testify.
19
Q
So when was the fifst time you spoke with him
20 since 1963?
21
A I don't remember exactly the date. But I gave
22
the guard h umb d d I 'd my p one n er an my name an s   ~ , "It's
23
very, very, very important," and I flirted with him.
24 And I told him, "Get this message to Mr. Sturgis

-
0
in Washington." And he said he would pass it on. And he
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mrhh Lorenz 110
2 evidently did. And it reached Frank while he was
3 testifying. Frank called me from an outside pay phone
4 when he was under guard, from somewhere in Washington,
5 and I taped him.
6
Q What did he say?
7
A I said, "You always were a lousy burglar."
8
I said, "How did you happen to get caught in this one?"
9
Q What did he say?
10
A "What can I tell you." I s a i d ~   went
11 to Danbury to try to find you." He said, "I have been
12
looking for you for years."
13
Q When was the next time you spoke to him?
14
A Every day from then on.
15
Q Until now?
16
A No, until October 31st, until my daughter --
17
not every day, no. Every day in those first few weeks.
18
And I asked him about Alex, how is everything. And
19
I said I am working, and he said, I call you from a
20
pay phone, he said, company, otherwise? I said no,
21 domestic, marriage, cooking, all that. He said, "I
22
23
24
25
have got to talk to you." I said, "Well, I just called
to say hello and thanks again for saving my life."
Q l'las this the time that he discussed with you
the death of Alex Rorke?
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mrhh Lorenz 111
2 A No, no --
oh, yes, the first time. I was on
3
the phone for about an hour and a half after he got
4 out of wherever he was testifying, and he called freely,
5
and I said, "Tell me the truth, Frank.
"
I said, "Did
6
you kill Alex?" And he said, "Come on, Mar ita, you know,
7
you know who killed Alex.
"
8
Q We have discussed that.
9
Did you ever during that time or any other
10
time ask him whether he had been involved in the
11
assassination of President Kennedy?
12
A
No, except that he said he was involved
13
in something so big that the whole country would turn
14
upside down. And he said he will come to New York
15 and talk to me about it. He said right now he
Hi said he was working this was at the time he was
17
working on a series of articles that he was giving the
18 Daily News, to a Paul Meskill and I did not tell Frank
19 that I was working for the bureau heavy because he
20 always seemed to prefer the CIA than the FBI. And I
21 told him don't write anything about me. And he said,
22
"Oh, Jesus, I have already given them everything."
23 I said, "What?"
24
Now, I was working espionage. I was holding
  hands with the Russians, and he was writing an article
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1 mrhh Lorenz 112
2 and I didn't know what to do. I called my case agent
3 in the middle of the night. I told them there is an old
4 friend of mine.I made a mistake and got in touch with,
5
and he just told me that he has already pre-written
6
a series of four articles, and he's sending a reporter
7
called Meskill to my house tomorrow and that he's going
8
to write it anyway, and, you know, he talks to me,
9
gets my version or he gets Frank's version. And I justdidn'
10
know what to do.
11 I told him to stop, not to write anything
  about me at all. "I am a different person now."
13
Q Did you ever ask Frank what he was doing with
14 Ossie and Jack Ruby in Dallas in November of '63?
15
A Yes, later.
16
Q What did he say?
17
A I said, "You know, Frank, you got to stop
18 writing this shit about me" -- excuse my French -- "this
19 stuff about me all the time. You blew my cover. I
20 can't work any more. You have turned my soul around
21 by exposing me, because I have worked for this government,
  and I have been dedicated to it all my life. And now
  I am exposed, and now it's the FBI man who I work with
  day and night, for years, that don't say hello to me on
  86th Street, or my kid, and my kids call him uncle this
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1 mrhh Lorenz 113
2 or uncle that.
11
And I said, "Plea se stop.
11
3 Anyway, he said he wa s going to get even
4 with the government for serving 14 months in Danbury
5 state Penitentiary and that he's going to sell it
6 little by little by little; fee d them a little of this,
7 a little of that.
8
Q
Did he ever tell you he was going to blame
9
the John Kennedy a ssa ssination on Fidel Castro?
10 A Yes.
11 Q When did he say tha t?
12
A In my house.
13 Q When was that?
14
A Last year.
15 Q Tell us about the conversation. What did
16 he say?
17
A He told me, I am going to drop five bombs,
18 one after the other. And he did j ust that. I think
19 three of them were in the Midnight Globe. They
20 were teasers, but each time he got paid for it. I didn't.
21 I didn't get a nickel. But he used my story in all
  these articles, in high times, i n Stag, a girlie
  magazine, which made my k i ds cry because I was in such
24 a magazine, in --
25
Q Did he e ver tell you t ha t he had been ques tioned
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1 mrhh Lorenz 114
2 by either the FBI or any other government agency
3 about the Kennedy assassination?
4 A He boasted and he bragged about it, but he
5 said, "They haven't got shit." He said, "They can't
6 prove it."
7
Q Did he ever say that he was questioned
8
by the FBI or any other government law enforcement
9
organization several times?
10
A Yes, he said they --yes.
11 Q I don't mean that he said it several times,
12 I mean that he was questioned several times.
13
A Several times questioned. But he said, "My
14 alibi will stick.
11
15
Q Did he say what his alibi was?
16
A He said, "Watched the whole damn thing
17 on television."
18
Q Was Frank used to watching a lot of television
19 during the time you knew him?
20
A No.
21
Q Did he say where he was when he watched
22
it on television?
23
A
24
Q
25
A
In his house.
In Miami?
Yes. He s aid, "But they can 't prove anything ."
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1 mrhh Lorenz
115
2
Q Did he ever tell you that he had been
3 questioned about the assassination within 24 hours
4 of the assassination, right away?
5 A He said "Right after that, they carne to me
6 first, ha, ha, ha.''
7
Q Did he say anything about what questions
they asked or anything --
9
A They asked him did you have anything to
10 do with the killing of the President of the United
11 States. And he said he gave them an alibi that they
12 cannot unlock.
Q Did you ever have a picture of Frank Sturgis
1·1
with Lee Harvey Oswald in your possession?
15 A Yes.
In
Q What happened to that picture?
17
A I turned it over to my case agent.
18
Q And when was that?
19 A That was the day after that article appeared
20 in the New York Times that my case agent brought.
21 I went down to the basement and I had a box of old
22 Castro uniforms and things •
23
0
Would that have been about 1973,  
24
A Probably, maybe. I don't know, I don't know.
25 I have got the picture at home, it has the date on it
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mrhh Lorenz
116
2 and everything.
3
Q You still have the picture?
4
A No, the picture of when -- Rothblatt and
5 Frank and them. But the other picture that I gave--
6
I turned that over to the case agent, and he said he
7
would give it back to me.
8
Q Have you ever seen it since?
9
A No. That picture was taken by Alex Rorke,
lO
and there were two of them.
11
Q Where was it taken?
12
A In the Miami area, Everglades.
13
Q When?
14
A I think it was 1963.
15
Q Do you happen to recall who was head of the
IG FBI at the time you turned it over to your case agent?
17
A Malone, the same one who gave me
18
Q I mean the top chief.
19
A
Hoover, J. Edgar Hoover.
20
Q Did you ever have any contact with any of these
21 government agents, FBI, Special Agent Warren
22
c,;• 'DeBr.uey!B ·
23
A Sounds very familiar.
24
Q Did you ever have contact with FBI, Special
25 Agent James J. O'Connor?
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mrhh Lorenz 117
2 A Yes.
3 Q Tell me about it. What do you know about him?
4 A O'Connor? I worked so many sections, so many--
5 I mean one could be organized crime, one could
6 racetrack, one could be this, you know, there was an
7 agent for every field.
8
9
10
11
12
13
1;)
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
Q
How about United States Secret Service
Arnest I. Aragon?
A Again, it sounds familiar.
Q Did Frank Sturgis ever offer to fly you to
England?
A Yes.
Q When was that?
A Last year.
Q What was the purpose?
A From England to Belgium, from Belgium to
France, from France to Angolia.
Q And what was the purpose of going to Angola?·
A To infiltrate Fidel's military advisers,
who were friends of mine from the Cuban days.
Q Did Frank say who he was working for
at that time?
A Yes, he did. A Colonel -- somebody
--
and
I
have his name at horne.
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118
2 Q If you know, when did Frank stop working
3 for the company?
4 A As far as I know he is still working for
5 the company.
6 Q When was it that you first discussed your
7 trip to Dallas with newsrreporters?·
8
A Well, you see, a Secret Service man and
9
Immigration and Customs agents came to see me last
10
June, last June, and knocked on my door and said,
11 "We know you went on a trip to Dallas." This was
12 special agent in charge of Intelligence, Customs,
13 Immigration, Steve Czukas.
14
Q
c-u-k-i-s?
15
Q c-z-u-k-a-s. I was cooking, and I said,
Hl really, "Yes, I did take a trip to Dallas, but I
17 didn't stay; I went back." And they knew about that
IR trip before I -- I -- you know, it left my mind. But
19 they had pictures.
20
Q
Pictures of what?
21
A Surveillance shots of us in the gun running days.
22
Q
Not in Dallas, though?
2.1
A No, just pictures. And I said, "Yes, I did."
24 I am not going to lie to them. They questioned me
  and they stayed the whole day, and we talked only about
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•-
mrhh Lorenz
119
2 this one trip. We talked only about three months,
3 from August, 1973, to November 22nd. They knew -- Secret
4 Service knew about this trip, and I said, "Yes, I did
5 go, and I came back to Miami," and I told them exactly
what I told the committee, what I told the press
7 after a leak, what I am telling here, what I confessed
in writing to them while I was in protective custody
9
by them.
10
Q Who put you under protective custody?
11 A Secret Service, Customs and Immigration.
12
Q When was that?
13
A Last July and August.
11
Q
Where were you held in protective custody?
15
A At Miami Springs Villa.
Hi Q How long did it last?
17
A Two months.
18
Q Which agents were in charge?
19
A Steve Czukas and Harold Weintraub.
20 Q
What kind of accommodations did they provide
21 for you during that period?
22
A
The room -- I had a cottage, first. It was
  due to a threat against my life.
24
Q
25
A
By whom?
By two New York men, threatened my life with
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mrhh
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2 physical violence and the death of my children.
:J so I called them and I told them, and they had me
4 escorted to the airport and put into protective custody .
5 I also got a new identity.
6
Q What was your name in that new identity?
7
A Cathie Webster.
8
Q
Did they end the period of protective
9
custody, or why were you told it was ended?
10
A I wasn't supposed to leave protective custody,
11 but my mother became seriously ill. While I was in
12 custody I was allowed to call. I was under 24-hour
13 guard. I was allowed to call her doctor, and the doctor
14 told me that she was terminal and that she was dying.
15 I stayed first, you asked me before, in a cottage
lG in Miami Springs Villa. Then there was an incident,
17 a knifing incident where a man -- where I told my
18 guards to take off for the night, because there was
19 round the clock protection with shotguns, and I guess
20 they were getting tired of sitting around, baby sitting,
21 so I said you can go for tonight, we are going to be
22 all right. But that was the one night I guess would
  you call it, a homicidal maniac broke in and tried to
  kill us, tried to stab me. And I fought him back with
  my knife. I had a switchblade, which he didn't
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mrhh Lorenz 121
2 count on. He was nude. He undressed in a car behind
3 the cottage, which was a golf course, and he broke in.
4 He had a stiletto at my throat when I woke up and he
5 was sexually crazy.
6
He asked me to do things. I agreed. I went in
7
the other room because I didn't know if he had already
8
gotten to my daughter, who was sleeping in the third
9
bedroom, and,.· instead, I reached down in my dungaree
10
pockets for my switchblade and I attacked him and I cut
11 him. I forced him out. If he had fallen and tripped
12 I would have killed him.
13 The training came in handy that Frank gave
14
me, self defense. But I was fighting for my life
15
and my kids. My children witnessed this. It was hushed
16
up by the Miami Springs Villa Police Department because
17
I was under a different assumed name. I was in custody,
18
and I let my guards go for the night. It was my fault.
19
The man -- I heard harm to somebody else. It was hushed
20 up by the Secret Service. There's a record of it,
21
that I went to a doctor because I was too nervous.
22
I was moved then to a $200 marriage suite in the Miami
23 Springs Compound .
24
Q
Do you know the name of the doctor who
25 treated you?
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1 mrhh Lorenz 122
2 A No, but I have a receipt at home. Because
3 I couldn't sleep after that, I was again under guard.
4 But the shock, absolute terror that I went through
5 facing this knife when you wake up at 4 in the morning
6 to a nude man, it takes a while to get out of your mind.
7
Q Of course.
8
A So I got some tranquilizers from a doctor,
9 and I went there under the name of Webster. He
10 was a block away.
11 Q Why is it that you didn't tell people
12 about what had happened in Dallas in November of 1963
13 for all those years?
14
A I did tell my mother exactly everything,
15 my mother. only.
16
Q Why didn't you tell other people? Were
17 you afraid?
18
A No. I left Dallas; I left them there. The
19 circum11tances, Frank's admission, everything.
20 Q
21
A
22
of the
2.1
Q
24
A
25
Q
What admission are you referring to?
That he had something to do with the killing
President.
When did he say that?
To me.
When?
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2
A Last year.
3
Q
Where?
4
A On York Avenue.
5
Q What were his exact words?
6
A What the
7
Q As close as you remember.
8
A He said he was going to sell stories and he
9
had a lot of money.
He had hundreds of dollars he
10 couldn't change; he went for change for cab fare.
11 And I said, "Tell me about Dallas. I always wondered;
l2 what did you really go there for that time you sent
13
me back?" And he said "1-lhat the fuck do you think?"
14
I said "You have got to be kidding."
15
Q
And he said?
A
I said, "You mean you had something to
17
do with that?"
1H
Q
Did you say the Kennedy assassination?
19
A
Yes. I said, "You had something to do with
20 Kennedy's death?" And he said, "I am going to sell
21 it by by bit, and who the f' can profit."
22
I said, "I am sick." I said, "You make me sick."
23
He was going to see his friend Frank Nelson.
  He couldn't change a hundred dollar bill. And that's
25
when he was starting to go to Angola.
And I said
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2 "Oh, no, oh, no, baby." Angola to me would be a one-
way trip.
4
Q l'lhy is it that after discussing this so many
5
years with only your mother, that you have now come
forward to discuss it with papers?
7
A I didn't come forward. The Secret Service
8
came forward; then there was the leak. The Secret
9
Service, they first did; I didn't go to the press.
10
I wanted to hear Frank say it himself. They came
11 forward first. Then there was a leak to the Daily News
12
about those two articles, about that trip to Dallas.
13
The same leak leaked to Channel 7 in Miami, Vic
1·1
Walters, about me being in custody a month ago.
15
There is some informant somewhere within
16
customs or Secret Service tipping off moves. I didn't
17
do it.
18
Q
But in other words, the reason that you feel
19 somewhat more comfortable about telling what happened
20 now
21
A I am gaining nothing; I am not getting paid.
22
Q was that the story already out? was
23
A It was out. I was in custody. Everyone knows
  that; they even know my name. I am not making money.
  I am on Welfare, and my garbology days are over. I can't
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2 even work. There is no book deal, there is no publicity
  stunt.
4 Q
I just want to ask you a few questions now
5 that concern things that have been said and things
6
that have happened since you have come forward to
7
tell the truth about what happened. First of all,
8
I have to eliminate some things. I don't want to offend
9
you. It is standard questions.
10
Have you ever been convicted of a crime?
11
A No, I have not.
12
Q Have you ever been arrested anywhere?
13
A No, I have not.
14
Q Have you ever been in a mental hospital
15
or under psychiatric care?
16
A No, I have not.
17
Q I'm sorry to ask you these things ..
18
A In fact I have been tested because I work
19 highly intelligent operations.
20
Q
Now, you did mention that you have been
2
1
on Welfare.
22
A Yes. Now that's no crime, that's circumstances.
23
Q
I certainly didn't suggest it was.
24
Have you ever been a member of any law
  enforcement group, aside from the things you have told
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2 us about?
3
A I have worked for the Justice Department,
4 narcotics. I have worked for police !ntelligence,
5 for IRS, for -- I was   ~   n an a uxiliary police o ff icer.
6 Q In New York City?
7 A Yes. I walked the streets like a police
8 officer because I wanted to feel what it was like
9 to wear a uniform, and I wanted to get the training
W and the background.
11
Q As far as you know, have you recently
~ since you have discussed what happened in Dallas
U with reporters, has anyone that you know of accused
M you of being mentally unstable or crazy? Have you
ffi heard any such thing?
16 A No, no.
17 Q
Do you know of any effort to discredit
18 your word?
19 A No.
20 ahold of some
21
Q
YOU
22
A No.
23 my documents,
24 was, I guess ,
25 Q Who
Except that people would like to get
of my documents and stuff.
mean reporters?
One David Aldridge. I mean my passports,
even my food stamps were stolen. That
to discredit me.
is David Al dridge?
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2 A David Aldridge sent me a letter of
3 agreement saying he would give me $100,000 in cash
4 in six weeks for my life story. But Mr. David Aldridge
5 is, I think, related to the  
6
Q
Did he tell you that he is?
7
A Yes, He also said --
8
Q Did he mention that he's related to Nelson
9
Aldridge Rockefeller?
10
A Yes.
11 Q Did he tell you who he was working for?
12
A No; he's a retired millionaire.
13
Q Did you have a series of conversations
14
with him at your home?
IG
A Yes.
Q
How long, how many times did he come to your
17
home?
18
A About five, six times. He tried to sell a
HJ book for me or whatever. I knew something was wrong,
20 but it was already too late; he waalked out with some
21 of my documents.
22
Q Did he ever tell you that his father had
2.
1
founded the· Psychological Warfare Division of the CIA?
24
A
Q
Yes.
Is it y0ur belief that he is an employee of
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2 the Central Intelligence Agency?
3
A Yes.
4 Q Still?
5 A Yes •.
6 Q You mentioned that he was interested in
7 your documents?
8
A Yes.
9
Q What particular documents was he interested in?
10
A It was very strange that-- I don't know
11 Mr. Webberman too well, but what I know of him I like
12 very much, and we got along pretty well. And he was in
13 the house once when Mr. Aldridge was there.
Q
Is that the time that I was there also,
15 or was that after?
A I think after. On this day my passports
17 and my Welfare ID and my food stamps and my daughter's
18 passport and some notes my mother had written and a ~   h o l e
19 bag of things were missing.
20
And I asked him for them back. He said he
21 would hold them for safekeeping. I said, "Put them
22 down."
23
Then he called me later and he said that
~ Mr. Webberman stole them.
25 Q
Was that true?
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2
A That was not true.
Q Who stole them?
4
A He himself stole them.
5
Q Did he advise you then not to speak to Mr.
6
Webberman or discuss what had really happened in
7
Dallas?
8
A
Yes. And he told me that Mr. Webberman
9
was an "opportunist," and I said, "I don't think so.
10
I think he's telling the truth."In fact I haven't
11
even read the book, but I have skimmed through it,
12
and what I see is Frank telling things that I think he
13
regrets today.
Q Did you obtain the return of these materials
15
that were taken from you?
Hi
A Yes.
17
Q
How?
lR
A I called my brother, in desperation, because
19
I was left without identity.
20
I had blood smeared all over my door.
21
Q When was that?
22
A About ten days ago. So I begged a lawyer
~ to represent me in writing two letters, one to Mr .
~ Fred Friedman, a lawyer who does not have my best
25
intest at heart, and one to David Aldridge, to immediately
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mrhh Lorenz 130
Z return all papers taken and documents. And he did
3 send his 15-year old son Richard Aldridge to my house
4 with a shopping bag full of my documents, probably
5 all photostated, including my daughter's passport
6
and my passports, my food stamps, my Welfare ID, my
7
rent receipts, anything which established who r am,
8
what I am, what I was.
9
Q As far as you know, has anybody ever accused
10
11
12
13
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
you of making statements about what happened in Dallas
in '63 in order to sell books or for any other
personal purpose?
A No.
Q By the way, do you have any books on the
market?
A Me, have a book?
Q Yes.
A A book I wrote?
Q Yes. Is there such a book?
A No.
Q Are you under contract with any publishers?
A Oh, no.
Q Have you earned any money between November,
1963, and today from books or speeches or personal
appearances concerning Frank Sturgis?
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2 A I will tell you what I earned. I earned
3 $235 from the Good Morning America show, that's it.
4 There was a book started, which fizzled out because
5 of a co-author who wrote his version and was rejected ,
6 and that was it. I lost interest in any book or writing
7 it. I have no intentions of writing a book any more .
8
Q
Have you ever been a member of the Youth
9
International Party?
10
A What's that?
11 Q It is sometimes called the Y i p p ~ e s   It is
12 a Left Wing political group.
13
A No.
14
Q Have you ever attended any of their
~ demonstrations opposing the war or any other
16 demonstrations that that organization has run?
17
A No.
18
Q Did you ever participate in protests agains t
19 the renomination of Richard Nixon in Miami in 1972?
20 A No.
21
Q In fact, isn't it true that you voted for
22 Nixon?
23
A I felt sorry for him when he got bounced.
24 I sent him a telegram.
25
Q
We can't record a favorable expression or
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mrhh Lorenz 132
2 a nod. Isn't it true that in fact you voted for him?
3 MR. HOFFMAN: She does want to go on the
4 record .
5
A I don't know. When he got thrown out there
6 were one or two very sad days. I sent him a telegram
7 saying I am sorry you got bounced.
8
Q When did you first hear of the book Coup
9
d'etat in America?
10
A A few months ago.
11
Q How did you receive it?
12
A In a package, it was sent to me.
13
Q Was that before or after you had spoken
14
to the newspapers about your trip to Dallas in 1963?
15
A That was-- the book I got afterwards, after
lG all that.
17
Q Had you ever heard of Hr. A.J. Webberman
18 before I myself contacted you to ask for a statement?
19
A No. That's right, you did.
20
Q Had you heard of Mr. Webberman before that
21 date?
22
A No, I never heard of Mr. Webberman or the
23
book before that date .
2-1
MR. HOFFMAN: What was that date?
25
THE WITNESS: You mean the day my daughter did
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mrhh Lorenz
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2 what she did?
3
Q
No. He was asking when it was that you first
4 heard of Mr. Webberman .
5 A After October 31st.
6
Q And that statement I asked of you, did that
7 concern Mr. E. Howard Hunt and Frank Sturgis before
8 1972 and whether they knew each other, if you remember?
9
A That statement, what?
10 Q We have got it down that the first time
11 you ever heard of Mr. Webberman was when I asked you to
12 sign a statement. Do you recall what that statement
13 was about?
14
A Yes, if I knew Eduardo/Hunt in --whatever.
15 It was 1960 when I knew him, yes.
16 Q
And about the relationship between Hunt
17 and Sturgis before 1972.
18
A Right, before 1972, yes.
19 Q
Now this you may think is a silly question,
20 but we do have to ask it.
21
Did you ever conspire with anybody to murder
22 Frank Sturgis?
23
A No, no, definitely not.
24 Q As far as you know, did either Mr. Webberman
25 or your daughter ever doany such thing?
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2 A No, not Mr. Webberman. I don't think
3 he's a killer.
4 My daughter did what she did out of fear
5
and love for me because she overheard Frank Sturgis,
6
Fiorini talking in my house and she overheard threats,
7
and she knew the night before he came that I got two
8
threats, one from Frank Nelson and one from a Cuban
9
woman saying I was dead.
10
Q Did they say why you were dead?
11
A If I talk.
12
Q Talk about what?
13
A Dallas. And I taped it, and I went to sleep.
14
I cried myself to sleep. It was a Sunday night. And
15 my daughter, having also worked for the FBI since she
lG
was nine, knows how to tape, wiretap, all this and
17
all that. She played back my tape and she heard
18
the threats.
19
So I woke up in the morning, made the kids
20 breakfast. I knew Frank was coming. He indirectly
21
threatened me with the Task Force, the company Task Force.
22
Q
What is the company Task Force?
23
A The Task Force -- which I have on tape
  takes the place of Operation 40. It's called the Task
25 Force today.
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2
Q You mean it's an assassination group?
3
A I was led to believe that the Task Force
4
is an assassination group today for the CIA. He
5
said to me
--
and I have that taped "When you get it,
6 you will never know who got you because you have been
7 around too much and you have got too many enemies."
8
My daughter, she -- I saw both the kids
9 off. I made them breakfast.
10 Monday morning, the day Frank was to come up,
11 she changed clothes in the staircase. She took with
12 her 20 dimes, her passport, and she went out and
13 bought a .22 from the street. And to this day I don't
14 know who she bought it from. She won't tell me. She
15 won't talk. She called me at 10 o'clock that morning
16 and said, "Mommy, I know he's coming up. I am not
17 going to leave you alone with him. I know I always
18 obeyed you, but I am not going to let you get hurt."
19 May I go off the record.
20
(Discussion off the record.)
21 A She called me from the street every 15 to 20
22 minutes and she said to me: "If you don't answer
23 the phone, I will get him when he comes down.
"
And
24 I begged her, I pleaded with her, I said,
11
Come horne.
25 Don't do
this. You know how I have worked all
my life.
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1 mrhh Lorenz 136
2 I can handle him. He won't hurt me. He is going to try
3 only to convince me not to say anything to the committee.
4 Q Which committee was that, the assassination
5 committee of the United States Congress?
6
A Yes.
7
Q Yes.
8
A She said, "I know you are not writing
9 a book. I listened to it." She said, "That's all bullshit.
10 He's not coming up to write a book with you or to
11 sell an article. He's coming up because he wants
12 to stop you." And I said, "Monica, I will give you
13 anything
1
please." She said, "Mommy, we are on Welfare."
14 She said, "If I lose you, I go to a shelter."
15 I said, "Monica, don't do this to me, my
16 record is clean. Please, nobody in our family has
17 ever been in trouble, Don't, you cannot hurt him. Leave
18 him alone."
19 Q Is this around halloween time that Frank
20 came to your apartment?
21
A
22
Q
23
A
24
Q
25
A
Yes.
Who paid for his ticket to come to New York?
I did.
Where
I got
did you get the money?
it from a loan shark.
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2
Q Why did you pay for his ticket to come to
3 New York?
4
A Because I knew when that article hit the
5 Daily News, the two weeks of silence from Frank
6 what I know -- how I know Frank, they terrified me,
7 but I didn't show it to my children. I kept it
8
inside. And I knew I had to come face to face with
9
him. He said to come down. I said, "No, Frank,
10 I can't come down because my mother is very ill."
11 In fact I let him go out of custody so I could
12
take care of her.
13
I said, "She is dying, I can't go down.
You come up. We will talk it over up here." Then he
15
said, "Okay, you send me the fare and I will come up."
16 So I went out and I got ahold of a shylock, and I
17
gave him a bracelet for security, and I got $300. And
18 then a few days before I went to a travel agency
19 and sent him the ticket.
20
Q
By the way, at that time, this is a time
2
1
before you ever met or heard of Mr. Webberman, is
22
that correct?
23
A Yes, right.
24
So she did what she did. She said, "Mommy,
  I love you. I don't want you to get hurt. I know what
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1 mrhh Lorenz 138
2 he's capable of. I heard him in the kitchen."
3
She heard him talk about Dallas. She heard
\
4 him talk about other things.
5
Q What did he say about Dallas then?
6
A That he was going to sell it bit by bit
7
and that he's going to place himself into a strategical
8
position where they could not touch him but that he
9
earns from it.
10
So, anyway, she -- I begged her. And this
11
went on. I didn't know what to do. At one point
12 I ran out on the street. I knew he would be in that
13
Monday. I ran out looking for her. She said, "Don't
14
try to find me." She just kept saying, "I am not
15
going to a shelter."
16
And then I came back in the house because
17
I was frightened by her, that her words saying that
18
"If you don't answer the phone every 20 minutes I will
19 kill him," because I knew he was in town.·'
20
He called then at 11 o'clock, 12, and said,
21 "I am coming up." I said, "No." I said "My son has
22
a problem in school. Wait a couple of hours." I needed
23
time to get her off the street. I didn't know what to do.
M She would not come in. I promised her anything, everything.
25 She has a strong mind. She is the daughter of the --
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1 mrhh Lorenz 139
2
Q mother.
3 A The father too, the general. She said --
4 anyway, I stalled Frank. He said he was going to a
5
Chinese restaurant to cat and then he was going to
6
come up. I was in the house, and that's the first time
7
I threw something out of frustration and broke
8
something because I didn't know what to do with her on
9
the street, I kept asking her, begging her, pleading
10 with her.
11
I called -- I was working Intelligence on,
12 of all things, child pornography, child prostitution
13 here in the city with runaways f rom out west. And I
14
called my chief. And I said, "My God, I have got
15 a problem." I said, "This time I don't know what
16 to do." I said, "My daughter is 15, and she is out on
17
the street with a .22 she claims she has in her possession
18 with ten extra shells, it's loaded. She bought it
19 for $20. And she wants to kill somebody and stop somebody
  from hurting me." I said, "I don't know what to do."
21 And this is Lieutenant Doyle of Police Intelligence.
22
23
24
25
I said, "I don't know what to do.
II
I said, "Pick her
up, pick her up, pick her up. I have about one hour,
maybe 45 minutes to get her off the street. I don't
know what she might do to this man. I am not
--
I don't
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1 mrhh Lorenz 140
2 think he is coming up here to harm me. He's too smart.
3
He's up here maybe to coerce me, because I even sent
4
for him. But I don't know what's in my daughter's mind
5
for fear and love for me.
"
6
so he said, "Oh, my God, "and I said, "I
7
will call you right back. I am going to call the
8
23rd Precinct. And I said, "I hope to God one detective
9
is working that she is friendly with and whose family she
10
knows, I have got to get her out, away from the street."
11
So I called up and by chance this detective,
12
Terence McSwiggin was working. I started to cry,
13
and I said, "You have to do something very quickly
14
and very quietly. You have to get my daughter, 15,
JR
off the street."
Q That's a separate incident, and I know it is
17
upsetting to you, and I don't want you to hurt your own
18
feelings by going over painful things again. So we
19 can leave that for now if the case is completed. We
20   that your daughter's purpose was to protect
21 you. Why don't we leave that for a moment. I have
22
practically no questions left .
A And they had her arrested, because
to this day she says, she would hurt him to this day.
25
She told the precinct commander that. She told my
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mrhh Lorenz
141
2 Intelligence chiefs that, that to this day she
3 will kill him if he doesn't leave me alone.
4
Q Are you still working for the police?
5
A No, no. I had to have my own daughter
6 arrested.
7
Q Who pays the rent on apartment 18E at 1725
8 York Avenue?
9
A Mesa Properties.
10
Q
Mesa?
11 A M-e-s-a, Mesa Properties. That's Levy Adler
12 Cohen Limited. It is a company apartment. I don't
13 mean that kind of a "company," I mean a corporation.
14 It's a private, not CIA. And he let me stay there
15 because there was no heat in my other place and
16 my mother was dying.
17
Q The last questions I just want to ask you are
18 about what you have told us already today. Has anybody
19 promised you anything or threatened you in any way
20 to get you to tell us about everything you have said
21 today?
22
A No.
23
Q Have either I or Mr. Webberman or anybody
else told you what to say?
25
A No.
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1 mrhh Lorenz 142
2
Q
Have you seen --
3 A I said everything on my own. I have nothing
4 to lose and nothing to gain. I am just telling the truth .
5 Q Have you heard what the questions would be
6 before I asked them?
7
A No. I don't know what you are going to ask me.
8
Q
You understand that everything·that· youhave
9
said today is under oath?
lO
A Yes.
11
Q
And it would be the crime of perjury if
12 anything were to be inaccurate?
13
A Yes, I understand that.
14
Q You understand that?
15
A I understand that and I know that.
16
Q Is everything that you have told us here
17 today true?
18
A Yes, it is.
19
Q
Is there anything that you would like to add
20 about any of the things we have asked about, your
21 own history, the Castro period, the Miami period, the
22 trip to Dallas?
23
A The one thing I regret having to do is to have
  my daughter arrested for this, that's the one thing.
25 And she is suffering under it, too, because she lost
SUl
1
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1 mrhh Lorenz 143
2 her friends, and I can't work locally, and I can't
3 that's the only kind of work I know how to do.
4 MR. MICHAELS: This concludes my examination,
5 I am sure you will be glad to hear.
6 And Mr. Hof.fman, I know has only eight
7 or nine hours of questions, and so I will turn the
8 examination over to him. Let me just note for the
9
record that Mr. Hoffman, at great sacrifice, has
10
been here throughout all of our conversation today.
11
THE WITNESS: I'm sorry I broke down, but
12
it makes me very unhappy to think that I had to arrest
13
her.
14
BY MR. HOFFMAN:
15
Q Because Mr. Michaels did such a good job,
16 I only have a couple of questions, and we will only
17 be a few more minutes at everyone's expense.
18
I would like to ask you a couple of questions
19 about the phone calls you have had with Mr. Sturgis
20 since '76 and '77.
21
A
22
Q
23
by him?
24
A
25
Q
Yes.
Were
Yes.
Were
any of those phone calls originated
some originated by you?
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mrhh Lorenz 144
2
A Yes.
Q Do you recall, just generally, s.ome of the
4
different topics? Were they recollections of the
5
past, or did they discuss Dallas in particular?
6
A Dallas, yes. One or two, not too many.
7
And mostly about him pushing books and articles and,
8
you know, making deals for selling stories and all that.
9
Q Would you know why he would be talking
10
to you about that?
11
A No. I really don't know. Whatever it was,
12
it was that he was the one that was doing the selling,
13
making the contacts and getting the money for it.
14
And he was using me in the stories, and he wanted to use
15
me for Angola. He wanted me to infiltrate some
16
Russian czar in New Jersey, to set him up. And he
17
wanted me to well, there is three things. Whatever
\8 l.' t
was, all three of them I said no to.
\9
Q Your first conversation with him after '63,
20 when you had that long interim period without speaking
21
to him, was when, approximately, do you recall?
22
A That was the year I was working with the
23
bureau, I 751 '6,'7, I don't know. I can give you the
  exact date. I got it at home, if my horne is still there.
25
Q Could you approximate how many conversations
>:.OUTHERN DIHR!CT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020

• ~
1 mrhh Lorenz 145
2 you have had?
3
A With Frank?
4
Q l'lith Frank from that time on until now.
5
A Oh, from that time on was when he sent
6
Paul Heskill to me, that's '70 -- you know that
7
series of articles in '76, from '76 on and off, monthly,
8
weekly, whatever.
9
Q
Would you say there were 30?
10
A Yes.
11
Q Okay.
12
A And he came to New York many times on his
13
own to see Frank Nelson and to make speeches and deals,
14
and he just called me when he was here. I didn't send
15
for him every time.
16
Q Did he come to see you every--
17
A I am in hock today because of him •.
18
Q Did he come to see you before you sent him
19
the ticket when he was in New York?
20
A Of course, plenty of times. He had
21
dealings in New York. He wanted me to look up all
22
23
24
25
subversive organizations here in the city.
Q
A
Q
When did you --
He even threw me a phone book.
When did you start recording the phone calls
<;r • l i T H   R ~ DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020


1 mrhh Lorenz 146
2 you have had with him?
3 A
I started recording in 1960 I learned
4 how to record. But with him '76 .
5 MR. MICHAELS: Off the record.
6 (Discussion off the record.)
7
Q Have you recorded all the conversations
8
you have had with him?
9
A Most of them. I got a stock of tapes at
10 home that would knock you over.
11 Q Does anyone else have copies of those tapes?
12
A
Yes, just in case.
13
Q May I ask who?
14
A Because my life isn't worth much these days.
15
Q Who has copies of those?
16
MR. MICHAELS: You need not answer those
17 questions if you don't choose to.
18
A No, that I cannot answer because that is
19 my children's security.
20 MR. HOFFMAN: On the record I would object
21 to Mr. Michaels' instructing this witness whether
22 to answer or not because she is not your client.
23
A I will answer, but I don't want to answer
  because anything happens to me, my children I don't
25 want going to a shelter. They are be{ng supplied with
SC'IJTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YURK. N.Y. - 791-1010


mrhh Lorenz 147
2 copies of tapes, with proof.
3 Q
Does Mr. Webberman have any of those tapes?
4
A No .
5
Q
Under what circumstances did you meet Mr.
6 Webberman?
7
A The book. His lawyer sent me the book.
8
Q That was Mr. Michaels?
9
A Mr. Michaels, right. And then I was curious
10 to meet him. I think he's a very nice person.
ll
Q Okay. I do too. Do you recall the first
12
time you actually met him, when that was?
13
A No, not exactly. It wasn't too long ago.
14
Q
After halloween of '77?
l.S
A Yes.
Q Did you ever talk to ~ l r   Webberman on the
17
phone before you met him personally?
18
A
19
20 garbolc:i9y.
21
Q
22
Webberman?
23
A
24
Q
25
A
No. I met him in the house.
We had coffee and c-rumpets and discussed
Did you record the conversations with Mr.
No, no, I didn't see why.
Has Mr. Webberman ever called you?
Just the last time to tell me he was going
SOIJTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 79l.I020
,.

1 mrhh Lorenz 148
2 to Miami, and I told him to bring me oranges.
3 Q When was that?
4 A A couple of weeks ago. That's it.
5
I called him to tell him I got my passports
6
back from David Aldridge.
7 Q Do you have an unlisted phone number?
8
A Do I have an unlisted?
9
Q
Yes.
10
A I have no phone. The phone is unlisted
11
under somebody else's name.
12
Q
Did you ever have an unlisted phone number?
11
A Yes, but they are very easy to get if you
14
know how.
15
Q Did you ever have occasion to give Mr.
lG Webberman when you had an unlisted phone number·· that
17
phone number?
A This last phone, this phone number now?
18
Q The one that you had that's unlisted.
19
A That I had? I haveno phone, it's not under
20 my name. The one that you called me -- that anybody
21
can call
22
name, at
23
my local
24
Q
25
number?
me from this office now is under a man's
the address where I reside now, which isn't
address.
Did you
It is an unlisted phone, yes.
ever give Mr. Web berman that phone
  DI)TRICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020


mrhh Lorenz 149
2 A Yes.
3 Q Have you ever been asked by either Mr.
4 Webberman or Mr. Webberman's attorney to sign any papers
5 or affidavits in relation to this case prior to this
6 date?
7
A No.
8
MR. MICHAELS: Haven't we already covered that?
9
MR. HOFFMAN: I just want my opportunity
10
to ask some questions. If you want to object/ you
11 certainly may.
12
MR. MICHAELS: I don't want to object; however,
13 I will put on the record that I did at one time when we
14 first met ask her to sign a statement with regard
15 to whether or not she knew Mr. Hunt and Mr. Sturgis
16 together prior to 1972.
17 THE WITNESS: Yes, but not a statement like
18 this or a whole big thing.
19
Q Have you ever testified under oath prior
20 to this date before any official body, police, court,
21 government, congressional committee concerning the
22 charges about Mr. Hunt and Mr. Sturgis and November 22nd
and the assassination of JFK?
24
A
Well, I don't know what you call it, but
25 I swore to tell the truth, and I raised my right hand
'iOlJTHERN   COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020


1 mrhh Lorenz 150
2 in front of Secret Service, Customs, Immigration,
3 and I wrote everything out, 32 pages long about this
4 Dallas trip, which was then shipped or taken up to the
5 State Department.
6
Q That was one incident?
7
A Yes. And I was promised immunity, and there
8
was witnesses, and I was promised a new ID and shipped
9
out west and put in protective custody for the rest
10
of my life.
11
Q
Did Mr. or his attorney ever
12
come to you or speak to you about having Sturgis
13
come to New York on halloween?
14
A No.
15
Q
When did you first get a copy of the book
16
Coup d'etat in America, Mr. Webberman's book?
17
A When it was delivered to me in an envelope,
18 sent to me. In fact my little boy brought it upstairs.
19 It was at this other address, 17 25 York, and it was
20 a couple of months ago. I haven't had time to read it.
21 I skimmed through it.
22
Q
Just a couple of questions about what
we went over, what Mr. Michaels went over, excuse me--
one thing I didn't understand is why was your attorney
25 David Walters trying to eliminate you.
\'     DlS'IRICT COlJRl REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 79!-!020
1 mrhh
Lorenz 151
2
A David baby, David represented Perez
3 Jiminez in 1962, 1, 2, 3. David also represented
4 me and is my daughter's godfather. David has $300,000
5
in trust for my daughter given to him as trustee,
6
me as administratrix for my daughter. That money, as
7
far as I know, was never returned to the general.
8
There was a mysterious fire in his office. And David
9
with state's attorney Richard Gurstein, hired a man
10 by the name of Frank Russo in a red Chevy to run me
11
down, which he did. And he hurt me and my daughter.
This is why I went back to Frank in August, 1963.
13
David Walters failed to uphold the extradition,
14
and the general was extradited on Bobby Kennedy's
15
orders and Dean Rusk, and is now -- David Walters
16
is now President Carter ' s personal envoy to the vatican.
17
0
So is it your opinion that he was trying
18
to eliminate you so that he could keep the money or
19
something to that effect?
20
A Yes. And he represented a good lot of Cubans,
21
Carlos pimps, prostitutes, gave a lot of Cubans
22
Immigration cards that they didn't deserve with hooks,
and he was very close to Gurstein. There was a police
record on that too . __ the hit on me in the red Chevy.
In fact the detective's name was Detective George Solar,
  DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. US. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N Y - 791-1020


mrhh Lorenz 152
2 Miami Beach police.
3
Q This is going to be jumping around. You
4
said that when you were sitting in that safe house
5
before the trip to Dallas and they were looking
6 at the maps, that you were positive that this was
7 going to be a hit on an armory.
8
A I wasn't sitting in a safe house. I was
9 sitting in Orlando Bach's house.
10 Q What made you positive that this was going
11 to be an armory hit?
12 A I wasn't positive. First of all, armories
13 aren't in the Miami area. There are munitions dumps.
14 Armories you have to travel to. Second of all I
15 was there, and I was used as a decoy, sitting in
16 a car while the others broke through the fence.
17 And I just took it for granted, because it wasn't
18 the actual -- it wasn't like before when we would
19 steal boats. I mean we stole half of the people's private
20 Chris-Crafts or yachts, Star Island, and all those islands
21 But always in the best interests of the government.
22
23
24
25
But this was always secretive, and it was an armory
because
Q
on York
there were so many weapons involved.
When
Avenue
Mr. Sturgis made that admission to you
~   h e n you asked him if he was involved
~ ~ ·, r rHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791.1020


mrhh Lorenz
153
2 in that, was anybody else there, any other witnesses
:! to that?
4
A My son.
5
Q And he heard it?
6 A Yes.
7 What was he, seven at the time. He's
8 interested in star wars. He's not interested in Frank.
9 Q
When you were at the Miami Springs Villas,
10 did they ever apprehend the attacker to your knowledge?
11
A
He got away. I knifed him. He got away.
12 But as far as I know, I was supposed to come back
13 to secretly testify against him, but it was too delicate
14 a situation involving national security, et cetera,
15 so they let it go. But I think he hurt somebody else.
16HEi,,was,,a local psychopath, homicidal maniac in the
17 area known to the police, and they hushed it up.
1H
MR. HOFFMAN: That is all the questions I have.
19
MR. MICHAELS: I guess that means we are
20 through.
21
22
23
24
25
(Time noted: 6:55P.M.)
Subscribed and
before me this
day of
sworn to)
)
)
)
1978)
SOUTHERN DISTRICT COURT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE. NEW YORK. N.Y. - 791-1020
1 mrhh
2 STATE OF NEW YORK )
) ss
3 COUNTY OF NEl•7 YORK)
4 I, Mark Richman , a Notary Public within
5 and for t he State of Now Yor k , do hereby certify:
154
6 That Marita   the witness whose deposition
7
is hereinbefore set forth, was duly sworn by me and
8
that such de position is a true record o f the testimony
9
given by such witness.
10
I further certify tha t I am not related
11 to any of the parties to this acti on bv blood or
12 marriage; and that I am in no way i nterested in the
outcome of this
14
15
16
17
18
19
20
21
22
23
24
25
my hand
IN WI'l't-l'BSS WHEREOF , I hnvc he reunto set
this
d..o
day of (..e.J--u-<-ay l 97<l
' UTHERN DIH RICT COURT REPORTERS, U.S. COURTHOUSE
FOLEY SQUARE, NEW YORK, N.Y. - 791-1020
-



mrhh Lore:1z 153
2
in that, was anybody else there, any ot.her witnesses
to that?
A My son .
Q And he heard it?
6
A Yes.
7 What was he, seven at the time. He's
8 interested in star wars. He's not interested in Frank.
9 Q When you were at the Miami Springs Villas,
10
did they ever apprehend the attacker to your knowledge?
11
A
He got away. I knifed him. He got a•.,.ay.
12 But as far as I know, I was supposed to come back
13 to secretly testify against him, but it was too delicate
!', a situation involving national security, et cetera,
Fi so they let it go. But I think he hurt somebody else.
16He. was' ,a local psychoi)ath, homicidal maniac in the
17 area known to the police, and they hushed it up.
U3 MR. HOFFMAN: That is all the questions I have.
19 MR. MICHAELS: I guess that means we are
20 through.
(Time noted: 6:55 P.M.)
2\
---.
22
Subscribed and sworn tol
)
   
,,. b f i/a
e ore me this
z.s day of !"lfiY
> I ... ... SIDNEY BELSON
1978) NOTARY PUBLIC. Sl,TE Of NEW 'IORK
No. 01 8'-1604704
Qualtlied ' -. Qutens County
Comm1ss\on hp<res March 30,
'iOI_'THFR:-.: D!STRICT CO!..iRT REPORTERS. U.S. COURTHOL'SE
FOLEY SQL'ARE. SEW YORK. :-.;_y_ - 79!.1020
l
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l
r.id yon hi111 emil meet hin
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\. Lo •.:.:ts arrested and c:harneu
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