1

IN THE DISTRICT COURT OF RILEY COUNTY, KANSAS

IN THE INTEREST OF:
Case No. 15JC29

Case No. 15JC30

Case No.

15JC31

Case No. 15JC32

Case No. 15JC33

TRANSCRIPT OF REVIEW HEARING

PROCEEDINGS had before the Honorable John F. Bosch,
Judge of Division I of the District Court of Riley County,
Kansas, at Manhattan, Kansas, on the 29th day of October, 2015.

100 Courthouse Plaza
Manhattan, Kansas 66502

_ .

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APPEARANCES
The State of Kansas appeared by Ms. Bethany C.
Fields, Deputy Riley County Attorney, 105 Courthouse Plaza,
Manhattan, Kansas 66502-6017.
The mother, Ms. Amelia Schwab, appeared in person and
by Ms. Miranda Johnson, of the law office of Patrick Caffey,
P.A., 1014 Poyntz Avenue, Suite B, Manhattan, Kansas 66502.
The father, Raymond Schwab, appeared in person and by
Mr. Randy R. Debenham, of the Debenham Law Office, 3615 S.W.
29th Street, Topeka, Kansas 66614-2077.
The father,

appeared by Ms. Brenda M.

Jordan, Attorney at Law, 404 Humboldt Street, Suite G,
Manhattan, Kansas 66502-6072.
The children appeared by their Guardian ad Litem, Ms.

Also appearing:

'he Se re ar y

lS

p r e sent

r.hroug6DanVel Deitrich,

Deja Jackson and Rhonda Eisenbarger.
CASA is present through Jennifer Anguiano, Cathie
Bear and Jamie Stevens.

3

THE COURT:

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2

Miss Fields,

you can state the case and

note the appearances, please.

3

MS.

FIELDS:

Your Honor, we are here in the interest

4

of the Schwablllllllllchildren, 15JC29 through 33.

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appears through Deputy County Attorney, Bethany Fields.

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State

, the other children are not,

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8

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10
11

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15
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The mother appears in person and through counsel, Miranda
Johnson.
The father,

appears not in person

but through counsel, Brenda Jordan.
Raymond Schwab, the father of the other children appears
in person and with counsel, Randy Debenham.
The Secretary is present through KVC Danyel Deitrich, Deja
Jackson and Rhonda Eisenbarger.
CASA is present through Jennifer Anguiano, Cathie Bear and
Jamie Stevens.
Interested parties present are
maternal

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She has filed a motion for interested

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aunt is also present.

22

party status but I know also Miss Jordan has comments for the

23

Court regarding her client.

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25

THE COURT:

Very well.

All right,

just to review a

few things, the Court had the disposition, or held the

4

1

disposition in this case on August the 5th at which time this

2

case was set for a review hearing today.

3

Motions were filed, the father's former attorney filed a

4

motion to withdraw, and so we had a motions hearing then on

5

September 9th.

The Court found that the maternal uncle,

6

should have interested party

7

8
9

The Court denied the father's motion
for his attorney to withdraw.

10

Subsequent to that time, the Court of Appeals granted Mr.

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Vinduska's motion to withdraw and this Court then also granted

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his motion,

I think he filed a second motion.

13

The Court has appointed new counsel for the father.

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Court found two Shawnee County attorneys, or county attorneys

15

that were willing to take the cases and Mr. Debenham is here in

16

the CINC case, and I'm looking for the list of names,

17

recall the attorney I appointed for Mr. Schwab on the appeal,

18

but he now is represented by counsel.

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MR. DEBENHAM:

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THE COURT:

Your Honor,

The

I can't

Here it is.
it's Rachel Hockenbarger.

That's correct, Mr.

Debenham, thank you,

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and she's been appointed, so Mr. Schwab is now represented in

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all aspects.

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So we are on for review today_

I have the CASA report.

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have the report from St. Francis, and at this time we should

25

probably take up the motion for interested status filed by the

I

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1

2
3

maternal aun
Now,

I might just state,

I

prepared that order appointing counsel for the maternal uncle,

4

When I

5

filled out the form,

and

I

put in there

I think it was purely a

6

mistake,

it should have

7

aunt married to the biological maternal uncle, AnthonYI

8

although it looks on the record that I've already appointed

10

because

interested party status,

9

~~

in my review of the file,

is the
so

I haven't.

So does anybody wish to be heard on this?

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MS.

FIELDS:

12

THE COURT:

13

MR.

The State doesn't object, Your Honor.
Mr.

DEBENHAM:

Debenham.
Your Honor, Mr. Schwab objects.

14

Grandparents can be involved automatically,

15

make sense for them to be interested parties, but there's no

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real reason for

17

interested party.

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placement, it would

to be allowed to be an

We already have a lot of parties who are involved in this

19

proceeding already.

I'm not sure that we need anymore cooks

20

adding to the broth,

so to speak.

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THE COURT:

22
23

24
25

Very well.

Anybody else wish to be

heard?
MS.

FIELDS;

Your Honor,

I would just remind the

6

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children,

so she's been to all -- to most of the court

2

hearings,

I won't say all, because I didn't go back and look at

3

the file,

she's been actively here at the hearings and does

4

have a vested interest in her nieces and nephews.
THE COURT:

5

I might note in looking at

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the statute, KSA 38-2241, the statute clearly provides under

7

subsection E, other interested parties, any person with whom

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the child has resided at any time who is within the fourth

9

degree of relationship -- which would take in a maternal

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aunt -- fourth degree of relationship to the child, or to whom

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the child has close emotional ties may,

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interested party if the Court determines that it is in the best

13

interest of the child.

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upon motion, be made an

We do have a lot of cooks in the kitchen,

so to speak, Mr.

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Debenham, but my review of the file indicates that indeed the

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children had lived with the maternal aunt at some point, and

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I'm assuming there's a close emotional relationship,

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anyone wanting to present evidence in that regard?

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if not,

, should be determined to be an interested
If she desires counsel, she'll have to -- and she can't

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party.

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afford it, she'll have to apply to the Court and fill out an

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application and that's up to her to decide if she wants --

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wishes to be represented.

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is

If not, the Court will find that the maternal aunt,

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-,

Very well.

So with that said, are we ready to proceed to the review

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1

hearing today, counsel?

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MS. JORDAN:

Your Honor I would ask the Court to

consider relieving me, at least for now.
Mr.

IIIIIIII

if the Court -- having reviewed the Court's

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report, will have seen

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only wants -- that have been expressed as a result of

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living with him, but since then, he's had continuation of that.

8

What he was experiencing when he was living with him was

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violent behavior and compulsive lying and now, since being

had some difficulties, not

10

removed from his home, he's personally told

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would have someone break into his house to kick his ass, and

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that's a quote from

13
14
15

So for those reasons,

that he

does not wish to be

considered as a reintegration option any longer.
Should there become a point in time when the State is

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pursuing permanent guardianship or termination,

i.e., the case

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plan changes from that reintegration which it is at this point

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in time,

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continued in for scheduling purposes, but at this point in time

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he's expressed not only to the case workers but also to me that

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because of those behaviors and the lack of ability to maintain

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that and the problems that he was experiencing with the

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extended family and trying to put a handle on that, he does not

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wish to be considered for reintegration,

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I'd ask to be excused from this hearing and future settings

then what my proposal would be that I be contacted and

so for those reasons,

L- _____________________________________________________________________________

~

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unless and until either he recontacts myself or the agencies

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and/or we move to the next phase beyond reintegration.

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THE COURT:

So were you aware your client wasn't

going to be here today, Miss Jordan?
MS.

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JORDfu~:

He had contacted me on Monday and asked

6

me if he needed to be, and that's when I asked him about the

7

information I had read in the reports about his statements to

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them,

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back from him as to why he had told them that, that he'd been

10

and the quote that I

just read the Court is what I got

threatened.

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THE COURT:

All right.

Well,

I

12

that the father has stated he was, quote,

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take a look.

14

represented,

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16

MS.

done,

and so, let me

If I biological parent doesn't want to be
doesn't want to appear -INGELS:

Your Honor,

just so the Court's aware,

has indicated when I met with him that he's actually

17

tried to make contact with his father,

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returned his calls.

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see in the report

and his father's not

I don't know that that's here or there really for this

20

Court to make an evidentiary determination as to what's

21

occurred.

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from the other cases from appearing,

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as counsel, but excused from attending until such time as -- if

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the cases move towards termination or permanent custodianship

25

or something of that nature,

I think at this pOint Miss Jordan could be excused
not necessarily released

then we could notify her that she

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needs to come back,

or in the meantime, what we've done in

2

other cases,

3

says I've changed my mind, then obviously she could let us know

4

and be back involved in things.

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MS. JORDAN:

if

makes contact with Miss Jordan and

Or even if he does that with the agency,

6

Your Honor,

I think they've left it open ended, that if he

7

changes his mind, they obviously didn't shut the door nor am I.

8

He knows he can contact me and I did tell him,

9

asked if he had to be here, part of my response to him was

in fact, when he

10

asking about the report, the information they've provided, and

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then also asking him what do you want me to continue doing if

12

that's your position, and that's when he responded with this

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information explaining why he had said he's done,

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reconfirming to me that yes,
THE COURT:

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he's done.

Is he still -- what's his date of birth, I don't

was filed.

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have that right in front of me?
Is he

yet?

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MS. JOHNSON:

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THE COURT:

21
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December
December

right.

Does the state have any objection to releasing
Miss Jordan?

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MS.

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THE COURT:

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when this case

All right.

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and then

FIELDS:

No,

Your Honor.

Very well, Miss Jordan,

you are released,

and you might as well just leave the courtroom,

just take a

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1

moment.

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MS. JORDAN:

3

THE COURT:

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5

Thank you.
Thank you.

All right, now we'll proceed with the review hearing, and
Miss Fields.
MS. FIELDS:

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Your Honor,

I would ask the Court to

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admit the CASA report dated October 13th, 2015, and the Kaw

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Valley report dated October 26th of 2015.
MS. INGELS:

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No objection.

MR. DEBENHAM:

Your Honor,

I've got the KVC report, I

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may have been sent the other two reports, but I have not seen

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them,

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their admission.
THE COURT:

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15

All right,

so the two -- other two

reports, only other report we have is a CASA report.
MR.

16
17

so I don't feel competent to object or not object on

Okay,

DEBENHffi~:

I thought I heard there was

some other one.
THE COURT:

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I don't know what happened, Mr. Debenham,

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sorry you haven't had a chance to look at these and you do need

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it.

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MR. DEBENHAM:

It was probably sent, because I got

like 550 pages of stuff.
THE COURT:

Does anyone have an extra copy of the

CAS A report we could give Mr.
MS. FIELDS:

Debenham?

We do, Your Honor, we have one.

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1

THE COURT:

2

but the Court will admit the CASA report, and the Court will

3

admit the KVC report dated October the 26th, 2015.

4

And you can proceed, Miss Fields.

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Your Honor, the court report from KVC

indicates that the ICPC was denied, and so I asked the agency

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to send us more documentation regarding that, and they sent a

8

letter which I believe all counsel received a copy of:

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letter from the Department of Human Services in Larimer County,

The

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Colorado, the letter's dated October 22nd, 2015, and it's from

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Julie Rudley, Social Case Worker 2.

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I would ask that that letter be admitted and I would mark
it as State's Exhibit No.1.

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MS.

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MR. DEBENHAM:

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MS. JOHNSON:

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THE COURT:

INGELS:

No objection.
No objection.
No objection.
Very well then the letter from Larimer

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county Department of Human Services dated October 22, 2015 is

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admitted.

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-----

MS. FIELDS:

6

12

,

Your objection is noted, Mr. Debenham,

MS. FIELDS:

Your Honor,

I would just request that

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the parents comply with the court -- with the case plan task.

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It's my understanding the case plan has just been approved by

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DCF and sent to the agency.

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copy of each case plan for the mother and father and plan to

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give it to them either during court if it gets done in time or

I have my staff printing off a

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1

at the conclusion of the hearing so that each parent has --

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each parent being Mr. and Mrs. Schwab -- each have a copy of

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each child's case plan task so that there's no confusion as to

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what they need to do to work the case plan goal of

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reintegration.

6

In addition, Your Honor,

I'd ask the Court -- so I'd the

7

Court to adopt the case plan and order to parents comply with

8

it, and two,

9

comply with the conditions as outlined in this letter, State's

10
11

I would ask the Court to order that the parents

Exhibit No.1.
There's several things that Colorado wants to see happen

12

before they are even willing to relook at an ICPC placement of

13

the children, and so I would ask the Court to order the parents

14

to comply with that.

15

I'm not agreeing necessarily with their time frame or

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their time schedules that they've laid out in the letter from

17

Colorado, but as far as the tasks themselves such as random
such as marriage counseling, mental health assessment,
types of things.

URINALYSIS - TEST

An integrated assessment for both

20

mental health and substance abuse,

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be ordered to comply with all those tasks.

I

would ask that the parents

FOR CANNABIS

22

I'd ask that the visits remain as the Court has previously

23

ordered, and it's my understanding, and I know Miss Ingels will

24

address this in more detail, that

25

/

13

-----

1

would leave that up to the Court.

2

way or the other.

3

THE COURT:

4

MS.

FIELDS:

I do not feel strongly one

Very well.
Your Honor, the other thing is,

I am

5

requesting the Court appoint an educational advocate for the

6

children, especially

7

has been nine weeks.

8

placement,

9

keeping KVC apprised of how he's doing educationally, but he's

He is struggling in school and it
I know that the maternal aunt and
, has been very diligent with

10

struggling, and so I would ask for an educational advocate be

11

appointed for him and to

12

She's currently not having speech at school but rather

13

having to go to an independent provider.

14

an educational advocate appointed, they could better navigate

15

the school piece such that -- so that

16

their education needs met in a more timely matter.

can have

We're nine weeks into this school semester and other than

17
18

just what the classroom teacher and

19

out together regarding

20

work,

21

I think if there was

have worked

homework and makeup classroom

there's not a lot substantive being done, and
grader and this is a critical

a

all school's critical,

22

but in my own experience, this appears to be a very critical

23

year and he's not grasping the material because he doesn't have

24

the foundation from the past school years and he's very much

25

struggling and I think it's affecting him.

I think

14

1

would agree that it's affecting him emotionally

2

and making it hard on everybody because he's struggling and he

3

knows he is.

4

So I would ask for an educational advocate for all

5

children to make sure their education needs are met because

6

their parents are far away,

7

those two.

8

THE COURT:

9

MS.

10

but if nothing else at least for

Those two referring to

FIELDS:

THE COURT:

?

Yes.
What about

11

12
13

MS.

FIELDS:

It was my impression or understanding

14

that he is receiving support and services.

15

education advocate,

16

He could use an

too.

I was thinking that the school was going to be doing some

17

stuff because of his psychological evaluation that they had,

18

but maybe they still couldn't do it.

19

asking for an education advocate for all of the children.

20

you're going to appoint one for one,

21

sense to appoint one for all of them.

22

they don't need to do anything for

23

have to do anything for him.

24

25

THE COURT:

Let me ask,

That's why in reality I'm
If

it seems to me it make
If it turns out that
,

okay, then they don't

has there been individual

education plans made for each of the children?

15

MS.

1

2

FIELDS:

That can't happen unless the parents

request it or the education advocate requests it.

3

THE COURT:

4

MS.

5

MS. JOHNSON:

FIELDS:

Or the Court orders it; correct?
That -- I don't know that that's true.
In my experience with other schools,

6

Your Honor,

7

The parent

8

it says in my orders that I can participate with schools and

9

all of that, and I tried myself to write letters to the school

the Court can't order it,

it has to be the parents.

because I've tried as a guardian ad litem because

10

to get the special testing and I can't do it so the court can't

11

do it.

12

off on it.

The special education laws require the parents to sign

13

THE COURT:

14

MS.

FIELDS:

I find that hard to believe but -It's because it's federal law and not

15

state, otherwise,

I think the Court could,

16

law, but because it's federal

17

THE COURT:

18

MS.

19

THE COURT:

20
21

FIELDS:

Miss Ingels,
MS.

We'll move on then, anything else?
No.
Very well.

you are the GAL,

INGELS:

if it was a state

Your Honor,

I believe, which is unusual.
I would agree with the

I do think at this point reintegration is

22

State's request.

23

still viable with a parent, and I would ask the Court

24

guess at this point my concern is the parents either, and I

25

speak specifically of the mother and Raymond because Mr.

I

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-----_.__ .._----------,
1
2
3
4

5

6

going to be asking the Court to make

7

a finding that reintegration is not viable because these

8

children don't need to languish in the system while the parents

9

decide whether or not they're going to work within the system.

10
11

12

13

So at this point I think we need to give them more time

14

and allow them to work the reintegration process.

15

just want them to know that if we come back and we still have

16

them fighting of ac"(ual1y doing these things, my position \-,;ill

17

not be the same at that point in time.

18

However, I

Specifically as to the educational advocate, I agree with

19

the State, I think one needs to be appointed for all the

20

children.

21

agree with the Court in the sense that the children are in

22

S~ate's

23

State in my opinion, not the biological parents, so I think the

24

Court can order the rEP.

25

that.

I know there's an issue with the IEP.

However,

I

custody, i.e., the legal guardian and parent is the

However, the school may not honor

I don't know what it hurts at this point to have the

17

Court order that.

2

don't,

3

ahead and put that in there.

4

ahead and put that in there.

5

if they

then we'll deal with that, but I think we do need to go

_s

But I think we do need to go

I also think we need the educational advocate,

6

specifically again,

7

struggling, but we got his grades just before court and he

8

seems to be doing pretty well and is participating and is very

9

well liked in school.

10

Finally as to

struggling.

I

think

is

, I would address the Court that I have

11

met with

12

today, and if the Court would like to inquire as to him, either

13

in the courtroom or in chambers,

14

but he does not want to have any contact with his mother or

15

Raymond.

16

he does not want to be involved in the visits.

17

a visit set up for today after Court and he does not want to be

18

involved in that.

19

a couple of weeks ago and he is out in the hall

I would leave that up to you,

He does not want to be involved in the phone calls,

That being said, as the guardian ad litem,

I know there's

I don't

20

necessarily agree that he should have that decision making

21

authority at his age.

22

changed, as long as it's reintegration,

23

at least participate with his mother at this point

24
. ......---- ....

If the school honors it, great,

1

25

I think until the case plan goal is
I think he should still

18

1
2

3
4
5

6
7

8

THE COURT:

9

10

MS. JOHNSON:

11

provided the case plan

12

Your Honor, since the mother will be

Miss Fields, do you have those copies?

13

MS.

14

MS. JOHNSON:

15

Miss Johnson.

FIELDS;

Yes,

I do.

May I,

before I agree or disagree with

them?

16

MS. FIELDS:

Just for the record,

the mother and

17

father are receiving a copy of each of the children's case plan

18

tasks.

19

It's very duplicitous but --

20

THE COURT:

21

MS.

22

FIELDS:

I don't know that I'm using the right

word, there's lots of duplications.

23

THE COURT;

24

MS.

25

I'm sorry, they're very what?

FIELDS:

All right.
And so each parent has,

of each child's case plan.

though, a copy

19

THE COURT:

1

2

tasks that were included in the report from KVC?

3

MS.

FIELDS:

4

actually approve it.

5

THE COURT:

6
7

Now, would this be the same case plan

then.
The case plan tasks are what constitute the permanency
plan; is that correct?

9

MS.

10

FIELDS:

THE COURT:

Correct.
So this has not yet been distributed.

This is the first that the parents have received it.

12

MS.

13

approved copy from DCF.

14

what the tasks are,

15

document.

16
17

it just took a long time for DCF to

So I want to make sure I understand this

8

11

Yes,

FIELDS:

It's the first that they've received the
However,

they've been made aware of

they just didn't have the actual case plan

THE COURT:

Very well.

All right, Miss Johnson.

18

MS. JOHNSON:

Your Honor,

it's my understanding that

19

there was a case plan conference when these tasks were

20

addressed but I'm looking at it, there's 25 tasks for the

21

mother,

22

know how much of that she ... I know she disagreed with some of

23

it, and that's what I'm trying to read through right now, and

24

that's why they're waiting on the final approved copy from DCF.

25

that's just on the one that I'm looking at.

I don't

So I guess we would like to point out that it's not that

20

1

they haven't been in compliance with the case plan, but up to

2

this point,

3

what all the tasks were, and now they do,

4

other biggest concern for the mother with these case plan tasks

5

is the cost associated with it.

they didn't have a copy of it, they didn't know
and up -- I think the

6
7

8

9
10
11
12
13

follow the recommendations at a minimum, or continue -- or

14

order the tasks as outlined for Colorado.

15

It also states in here that she shall participate in

16

family therapy with

I know in my conversation with her

17

that is a concern as to how she can do that from the state of

18

Colorado so I would ask that KVC be ordered to help find a

19

family therapist that will do family therapy over the phone

20

between the mother and

21

some of the phone call issues and the visitation issues,

22

there's a family therapist involved with that, but at this

23

point, the mother does not have the funds to drive to Kansas

24

bi-weekly to participate in family therapy with

25

know if that's a task of all the children,

I

and that may also help facilitate

I

if

I don't

just happen to

21

,~.

1

have

case plan that I'm looking at.
I would ask thatlllllllle ordered to participate ln phone

2

3

calls and visits with his mother at this point in time as the

4

goal is reintegration in this case.

5

be that family therapy set up so hopefully that can be

6

facilitated by phone so that she can participate in that with

7

him, and I would ask the Court to consider the financial burden

8

that some of this is on the family.

9

Again,

As for the educational advocates,

I'd ask that there

the mother is not in

10

agreement with having an educational advocate appointed.

11

still has rights as a parent to look out for her child's

12

educational needs and would like to be the decisionmaker on

13

that, and I think in past cases we've had issues attempting to

14

appoint educational advocates when the parents were still in

15

the picture and to be consulted.

16

told that they would not appoint educational advocate at that

17

point, and it wasn't by the Court,

18

MS. FIELDS:

19

MS. JOHNSON:

I

think,

in fact,

She

we were

it was by ... the name?

DCF.
Was it DCF?

And so at this point I think that the parents need to be

20
21

kept apprized of placement and KVC as to what those concerns

22

are.

23

that information to them.

they need to provide

I was confused in reading the CASA report because it said

24
25

If the school has some concerns,

I

that

didn't need special education services, didn't need

22

1

an IEP, but yet he was in special ed,

2

in order to be in special ed,

you had to have an IEP,

3

wondering if maybe he was in,

like, Title 1 reading classes

4

which doesn't require an IEP.

5

was in regards to.

6

MS.

8

10

so I was

I don't know exactly what that

So those are Our ...

7

9

and my understanding that

INGELS:

Your Honor,

I'd like to respond to that.

My issue that I have with the parents objecting, we
haven't heard from the father,

but as to the educational

advocate, we have the argument that the financial issue of

12

~

13

argument as to how to do the tasks that they're asked to

14

complete, how are they going to get back here to do things with

15

the school?

11

g back to Kansas to do these things,

to

_~ra do

16

yet t he y Chose~
FALSE

after

t h i~

caS e started ,

and if we have the

So you don't get to make that argument in my opinion and

17

say don't hold it against us that we voluntarily chose to move

18

to Colorado when we can't do all these things that far away but

19

yet we don't want you to appoint an educational advocate to

20

look out for the children's best interest in education because

21

we want to be ones involved, even though we can't be there all

22

the time because we're in Colorado and can't afford to come

23

back.

24

MS. JOHNSON:

25

THE COURT:

Your Honor
One second.

23

I want to hear from the father first and then let you

1

2

respond, Miss Johnson.

3

MR. DEBENHAM:

Thank you,

Your Honor.

4

We've got several issues, did you want me just to address

5

right now the educational advocate, or can I go through all of

6

the issues that have been brought up?

7

8

THE COURT:

You can go through all the issues, Mr.

Debenham.

MR. DEBENHAM:

9

The educational advocate,

father has

10

already contacted at least one of the schools, offered to sign

11

whatever he needs to to get an IEP done.

12

in volved

~n

13

he doesn

t

14

becaus

15

whatever he needs to sign and has told at least one of the

16

schools that he wants to do that, so again, we don't see the

17

educational advocate as really necessary for that reason.

18

fact,

19

the teachers at one of the schools, so the process is already

20

starting.

21

22
23

24

25

the e duc t ' on of his klds ,

r eaLly see

he

eed

he wan ts -- he wants

yeah,

o r an

0 ge t

He wants

so fr om h i s
e ducat~o n al

~nvolved

0

be

g erspec t iv~ ,

~d voca te

and to sign

In

there was even a conference call last week with all

24

1

efforts, to reintegrate the children with the parents, and

2

definitely between

3

to be some sort of family counseling.

No w,

4

b~

a bit diffi cul t because dad was moved to

ra t her tha

~n

not a .

Denv e r

6

hJ.s

7

distance between the two but there may be something that can be

8

worked out, and from my experience, anytime that there's a

9

therapist trying to work when you've got a kid who doesn't want

10

to talk with one or both of the parents, they always start with

11

phone calls anyway, and then go to Skype and then try to do

12

some interactions between them.

0 wo k a t

c h o' ~ e ,

t h e VA the e ,

b uL t: he choice a f the oompc ny,

Topeka ,

so we've got a big

The personal interactions probably won't be happening for

14

a little bit into the future so at this point I think we

15

should -- the Court should order that there be some sort of

16

family counseling to try to get the healing process done with

17

this family.

18

....

m y

5

13

.. -

h~

and the parents, there's going to have

The costs, my client has no problem with any of the case
He has no problem with anything that the

19

plan tasks.

20

department of human resources from Larimer County is

21

recommending.

22

you order them or not, simply because he wants the ICPC to be

23

successful and he wants to get the kids out there, or at least

24

hopefully at least four, but he would like to have all five of

25

them out there .

He is going to do those regardless of whether

He is looking forward to getting the ICPC

25

1

process done as quickly as possible and getting his part of

2

this done so he can get the kids back as quickly as possible.
But we've got the costs, and since the State is tasked

3

4

with trying to reintegrate the parents,

5

onerous costs involved,

I think where there are

I think the State needs to be at least

6
7

assisting but hopefully paying for those courses.

The courses

8

can be taken in Colorado but that doesn't mean that Kansas

9

can't be sending money to those companies in Colorado, or at

10

least I've never heard that the State of Kansas can't pay for

11

services in another state.

12

State has already paid for drug and alcohol evaluation out in

13

Colorado which my client has already done

In fact, my client tells me the

14
15
16

I

THE COURT:

17
18
19
20
21
22
23

~.---

think that addresses most everything.
When was the drug and alcohol evaluation

done?
My review of the notes indicate it hasn't been done.
MR.

DEBENHAM:

I

think it's been scheduled and it

hasn't happened.
Can I have my client stand up and tell the Court exactly
what the situation is?

24

THE COURT:

25

MR. SCHWAB:

He sure can.

Go ahead,

Thank you, Your Honor.

sir.

26

1
2

Colorado, have worked out how this is going to work and they've

3

already

4

payment or something like that which KVC has provided, and so

5

we have scheduled it, but no,

6

but we have it place.

7

we were waiting on a referral and a promise of

it has not yet been completed,

Colorado is helping us with their resources.

They can't

8

help financially but they're plugging us into places where they

9

would have us do it if the case was there, and so KVC so far

10

has said that they're willing to financially assist in some of

11

that process.

12
~

KVC, as well as the Department of Human Services in

13

I don't know about the whole case plan, but we are moving
forward with that right now;
THE COURT:

14

15
16

Mr.

Very well, thank you.

Debenham.
MR. DEBENHAM:

And before I sit down, I want to say

17

that I would like to call

18

some testimony from her on the case plan tasks and where we are

19

and also on the ICPC about their interactions back and forth

20

with Colorado and what may be happening down the road here, but

21

we can do that after we've talked about the other issues.

22
23
24
25

THE COURT:

, so -- I'd like to get

Very well then.

Miss Johnson, you had something else you were wanting to
respond to?
MS. JOHNSON:

I think all I was going to say, Your

27

1

Honor,

is that the mother,

2

paperwork for the IEP's, they would review that and return it.

3

At this point in time,

4

t o t h em ,

5

r ignts t o mq ke e d Ucatlona i decisio ns [or Lhelr chlldre n, and

6

we'd like the Court to take that into consideration and give

7

them an opportunity.

8

may be testimony one way or the other, but that doesn't mean

9

it's been provided to them and that they haven't complied to

- no th-e

S tj

r

11

with Mr. Schwab,

d Oll ' L th i n k

a nyt h

if they're sent the

n g 's

be e n p r o vided

r e pare nts , t h e y s t il l h ave

a r nLa

I've not seen anything and maybe -- there

10

this point, because I know Mr. Schwab did participate in

11

conferences with the schools, and if an educational advocate is

12

appointed, they can be cut out of the loop and not -- and they

13

won't maintain communication.

14
15
16
17
18
19
20

21

22
23

24
25

THE COURT:

In Colorado or in Kansas?

28

1

MR.

2

THE COURT:

3

DEBENHAM:

Both in Colorado.

Very well, thank you.

All right, at this time,

4

else we need to address,

5

to call someone,

unless someone else has anything

if we need some testimony, if you wish

you may.

6

MR.

DEBENHAM:

7

THE COURT:

Very well.

8
9

called as a witness on behalf of the father,

Raymond Schwab,

10

being of legal age and after having been first duly sworn,

11

testified as follows:

12

DIRECT EXAMINATION

13

BY

14

Q.

15

A.

16

Q.

And do you work for KVC --

17

A.

Yes.

18

Q.

MR.

DEBENHAM:

Can you identify yourself for the record?

Behavioral healthcare,

Inc.?

And you are the case manager on this case?

19

20

A.

Yes.

21

Q.

You've been working with both of the parents on the case
plan and basically through this whole case?

22

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

And you have -- we just -- you've been working with them

25

on the case plan and you've just recently,

just very

29

1

shortly, have given them the newest version of the case

2

plans?

3

A.

Correct, the approved copies.

4

Q.

And you've talked with them previously about some of these

5

tasks for them to complete?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And the letter from the Department of Human Services from

8

Larimer County, Colorado, you were the one that sent that

9

to me; correct?

10

A.

Correct.

11

Q.

You have a copy of that?

12

A.

Not a physical -- hard copy.

13

Q.

Okay, but you're the one that ...

14

A.

Yes,

15

Q.

To me?

16

A.

Yes.

17

Q.

And you're familiar with the people from that office?

18

A.

Just

19

Q.

Okay.

I forwarded that.

that's who I've spoken with.
And between you and she, you've been able to start

20

some of the issues that are on -- some of the tasks that

21

are on this letter?

22

A.

Yes , s"h e ' !$ been ah l e t.O p :""ovide sE:rvices

Ollt

t here i n t hat

23

elL-en. t hai th e p d. r e n S C<Hl lltili""e in .:.eqa.cds to ,r andom

24

UA ' s and she said as long as we can send her a copy,

25

approved copy of the case plan, she'd be able to help us

FOR CANNABIS TESTING

"~~

30

1

with helping the parents find those services and getting

2

those set up so we could coordinate with her.

3

Q.

cooperated to this point?

4

5

And are you aware of whether the father has or has not

A.

Up until last week, there was a lot of hesitancy, but when

6

r spoke last Wednesday, he was very cooperative and

7

basically just said he's ready to get the ball rolling and

8

do what he needs to do.

9

Q.

Okay.

Now,

all of these tasks,

can they be done in

10

Colorado through the Department of Human Services --

11

excuse me,

12

Have you talked with them about how to meet these

rcpc

13

14

let me ask a better question.

A.

requirements?

Yes.

Basically,

just coordinating with them as far as

15

them giving us the names of the services that the parents

16

can use, and then having the parents sign the necessary

17

releases that they need to so KVC can be in communication

18

with those agencies to potentially help out financially as

19

well as get the progression of how they're dOing in those

20

services.

21

Q.

THE ICPC, KVC REQUIRING RAYMOND TO TEST NEGATIVE FOR CANNA
DESPITE COLORADO BEING A MEDICAL CANNABIS STATE.

So would it be fair to say that they re requiring that

rcpc,

22

these things be done before they approve an

23

effectively, they are working on these in Colorado?

24

A.

Correct,

25

Q.

Go on.

they just want --

but

31

1

A.

They just want to make sure that the parents,

you know,

2

are complying with agency requests and are getting the

3

necessary services, and are being consistent in

4

maintaining those before we can resubmit for approval.

5

Q.

let you know when these have been done?

6

7

And are they going to -- do you know if they're going to

A.

I think that will all be in coordination as far as,

8

know,

9

of those services that they're doing,

you

when the parents do get those and we get completion
then we would just

10

be working with the ICPC people in Colorado just to let

11

them know that these tasks have been completed.

12

Q.

And then you'll resubmit an ICPC?

13

A.

Correct.

14

Q.

And then assuming that they've done all the things that

15

Colorado has asked them to do,

16

reintegrating the kids with their parents in Colorado, but

17

still keeping the case open?

18

A.

f r om my u nde r s a n d' ng i s tha

then we can start

~ f

th a t we r e

0

happen , t ha .

th o cas e wOu ld s t i 1 be ope n he r e , an d th at ' s jus t , I

19
20

wO ll

21

22

Q.

Okay.

But,

completed,

23

A.

in the meantime, once the ICPC is

the children can then move to,
Colorado,

24
25

in fact,

not Golden ...

to be with the parents?

I

Correct.

L---_~~

_ _

~

32

1

Q.

2

And then after this is done,

then we still have the case

plan tasks ahead of us; correct?

3

A.

Correct.

4

Q.

And aren't some of the case plan tasks duplicative of what

5

Colorado wants to have done?

6

A.

Yes.

7

Q.

And do you see that there's going to be -- once these are

8

done, do you see that there's going to be very much at all

9

in the case plan tasks left to do?

10

A.

No.

I want to say it's just being able to maintain

11

housing, being able to document verifiable income ... I'm

12

trying to remember off the top of my head what all is on

13

there besides what's in front of me.

14

Q.

Basically once the ICPC is done and approved,

they've made

15

the biggest parts of what they need to do to get the case

16

plan done?

17

A.

Correct, and after that, then Colorado would just oversee

18

to make sure they're still utilizing those services and

19

make sure it's going to be a success,

20

there.

21

MR. DEBENHAM:

22

THE COURT:

23
24

25

so the kids can go

No further questions,

Your Honor.

Thank you.

Anyone else have any questions for Miss Jackson;
Miss Fields?
CROSS EXAMINATION

33

---------- ---------------,

1

BY MS.

FIELDS:

2

Q.

Was there a meeting with the school regarding

3

A.

Yes,

4

Q.

Okay.

5

A.

It was myself; my teammate,

?

last Wednesday.
Who participated?
was

6

participating there for a little bit at the beginning of

7

the call;

8

phone.
abo~t

, and Raymond Schwab was there by

9

Q.

How

10

A.

No, Amelia did not participate.

11

Q.

Do you have a reason why?

12

A.

The reason that I was given was there was some issues

Amelia?

13

going on as far as she was just upset in regards to not

14

being able to get a phone call with

15

birthday,

16

ahead and participated.

17

on her

so she was just upset with that,

so Raymond went

We'd rather had Amelia participate so she can hear

18

what the school was saying as well,

19

also one phone,

20

in that.

but because there's

Raymond went ahead and just participated

21

Q.

What was the outcome of the meeting?

22

A.

They stated that they would be moving forward with special
because he's already

23

education services for

24

receiving additional services as far as para work in the

25

class,

but also being able to utilize additional special

34

1

education services, whatever the school has set up, and

2

Raymond was very cooperative in whatever he needed to do

3

and sign and he provided his e-mail and phone number to

4

the school so they can contact him.

5

Q.

6

paperwork is signed so that

7

services?

can receive those

8

A.

Yes.

9

Q.

And does one parent have to sign, or both?

10

A.

To my understanding, there only needs to be one parent

11
12
--~

Will you be able to track and monitor that the appropriate

that needs to sign.

Q.

13
14

What has been done to set up meetings with the school
regarding

A.

I've sent out multiple e-mails to both parents actually

15

trying to set up a conference line with his school after I

16

got into contact with the principal there, and she gave me

17

their plan period times but I

18

far as when we can set up a conference call from the

19

parents.

20

Q.

And would it be important give

haven't heard back yet as

age and the fact

21

that we're nine weeks into the school that that get done

22

sooner rather than later?

23

A.

Yes.

24

Q.

Would it be helpful to have an education advocate here

25

locally who can facilitate making sure that the children

35

1

are receiving services in the school,

2

services in the school that they need?

3

A.

all the necessary

I do, but also with that I think it would be very

4

important to continue to have the parents actively

5

involved.

6

in Kansas just to get the necessary services but I do

7

think that the parents still need to be included in all of

8

those decisions.

9

Q.

10

It just may be easier with somebody being here

I do believe for reintegration in this case, it would be
important for the parents to stay involved.

11

Has there been any discussion with the school

12

regarding

13

through an independent provider?

14

A.

15

No, not yet.

I was actually going to be contacting

to see if they have any additional services because I know
too old for

16
17
18

receiving speech through the school, not

as she just turned

trying to get those additional services for
Q.

But what about just through the school,

with the speech

pathologist in the school?

19

20

A.

No.

21

Q.

No what?
No,

22

she can't access it or no,

you don't know if

23

there's been any progress in getting the school to offer

24

that?

25

A.

I'm not for sure if there's been any progress as far as

36
-------------~----,

the school being able to offer that.

1
2

Q.

Okay, but thatTs something you can follow-up with?

3

A.

Yes.

4

Q.

Because then she could just get it right there at school

5

opposed to having to go to a separate provider outside of

6

the school day?

7

A.

Yes.
MS.

8
9

Q.

10
11

n

hi s

by

A.

It

y~

t

I

S

FIELDS:
ur

I don't believe I ...

L!fld~r S t. a n ~ ~nq

: h <::l t

h e fa t he-r rnc v -=d t o

C'Jlo r a d o

0 '.,1:1 C !10 J. Ce- ?

my

Ull

e r s t and ing t ha t his j::.b

t

r -ans e r r ed to

Col or ado .

12
13

14

15

16
17
18
19

20
21

22

Q.

And Raymond is not the father of

23

A.

Correct.
MS. FIELDS:

24
25

Honor.

correct?

I don't have any other questions, Your

----~

37

1

THE COURT:

2

MS.

3

THE COURT:

4

MS. JOHNSON:

5

THE COURT:

Ms.
No,

INGELS:

Your Honor.

Miss Johnson?
No,

Your Honor.

Any redirect, Mr.

6

Debenham?

CROSS EXAMINATION

7

BY MR.

8

Q.

9

r---,

Ingels?

DEBENHAM:

Assuming that the parents sign what they need to do,
fact,

in

I think we've already established father is willing

10

to sign whatever he needs to,

11

and continues his involvement and then KVC provides the

12

oversight, do you see that there's really any need for an

13

educational advocate?

14

A.

I think it would benefit as far as just an additional

15

service for the kids.

16

benefit for them.

17

Q.

ftlou ld - he

I

think it would be an added

dlJ 'aLi o nal ad voca e -- waul r ' L t.he educaLiona l

a d ocale ki nd of b

18

if he signs what he needs to

s

e pp~n g

o n Lhe Loes of t he pa en 5?

If you ' ve goL a pa enl l hal ' s i n vo lv ed , wo uldn ' l - n

19
20

educa i ona l a dvocaLe a nd the ps en

21

o cis wi '- h eacl.. ot..her?

22

A.

I guess it. could po1*e nLia ly b

5

concei va b ly

_ha . . . ra y ,

bL1

,

e

aL

I me.a n ,

23

r eal ly hones 1 y don '

24

the educational advocate is to make those final decisions,

25

so I don't know that they would be able to coordinate with

kn o ...: .

I mean, obviously the job of

38

1

the parents, but r think that if that was something that

2

would be able to be done,

3

the kids to have that additional service.

4

Q.

5
6

it would be a great benefit to

Even if the parents are willing to go ahead and get
involved and get the rEP done?

A.

r think just because of the parents'

location, as far as,

7

you know,

8

participate by phone when phone conference comes up, or

9

it just would be easier to have somebody here in Kansas to

10

11

kind of oversee those things.
Q.

12
13

they're not always going to be able to

Has the father ever talked to you about being willing to
drive back and forth to do those sorts of activities?

A.

We actually haven't had that conversation as far as him

14

being willing to drive back and forth for school related

15

things,

16

Q.

And he has said that he'd be willing to drive back and
forth for other activities?

17
18

so that is something we can look at.

A.

As far as visits.

19

MR.

DEBENHAM:

20

THE COORT:

Nothing further,
,

I

Your Honor.

have a question, and that

21

is since we were in court at the disposition,

22

August,

23

A.

~o ,

which was back in

h a v e t he p a ren s seen t h e ch i dren in pe rson at al l .
not sinc e t e n .

DENIED ALL ACCESS TO THE CHILDREN FOR MONTHS

Very well, thank you.

24

THE COURT:

25

You may have a seat.

39

All right,

1

2

unless anybody else has any other evidence they

wish to present to the Court today,

3

I'll proceed.

I've heard your recommendations on the issues here.

4

MR.

Your: Ho nor ,

DEBENHAM:

i f I might , I ha,t.e t.o

5

i nt e jec t

a not h~ L

6

C h r istm~s

co ml.ng u , and it would be nice to be able to do

7

visitations.

but we 've got Tha nk s gi v 1ng and

I know the visitations have started,

8
9

SSU€: ,

I think they're even

going to be starting after the court hearing today, but we're

10

looking at and hoping for possibly supervised or preferably

11

unsupervised visits here in Kansas during the Thanksgiving

12

vacation and during the Christmas vacation.

13

We'll probably be coming back here after that point but it

14

would be very helpful to the parents to know that they're going

15

to be able to see their kids on the holidays at least.

MS. INGELS:

16

Your Ho n o , I would o b jet:'"t to any

17

u ns u p~r vi sed

18

i n qu1 ed , a nd the Cou t

19

bu t re st s a nce

20

11eek

21

he l p w' Lh Lhi gs , bu t we ' r e Dol t o a foint t o h ave un supervis

22

vi si tation I do n't

23

th~

vi si t a t i o n at t.h i s po in t in tl.1;ne o S t he Co .r t jllsl

n

th i~

s very much awa r e , w ' ue had not h1ng
~a se ,

and i L ' s greaL now lh L the l as

fath e r ha s a p are n t ly de l. ded h e ' s goi ng LO wor k. and

We' 'Ie

n 0 1:

be l i~ve

had th e E g

in th is Gase .

tesy

we have -- the whole issue

24

of the refusal to do the drug test after the first temporary

25

custody hearing and so it's not been a situation where these

40

1

parents have com p l ie d a nd wI l li ng ly done what has been asked of

2

them.

3

And over the holidays, as the Court's aware, it's hard to

4

get supervision so that would mean the placement would have to

5

supervise and I don't think that's appropriate in this case.

6

think they should be allowed supervised visitation through the

7

agency as close to the holiday and around the holiday as

8

allowed and every other case, but to have any type of

9

unsupervised visitation at this point in -time,

I

I

would object

10

to that and I don't believe i-t's appropriate, and I don't think

11

we can require the agency to work on holidays.
MR. DEBENHAM:

12

Your Honor,

if I could add, we've got

13

things going down the right path now,

14

think it would be helpful to the family under reintegration

15

efforts if we can keep things going down the right path there.
THE COURT:

16

Thank you.

17

been

18

bot

19

t he o n ly tJl\ I' m a w re o f .

20

t he'e '....-as a

l:ha t was s ubm t.led t o on October 14 th by

Miss Fields; is that correct?
MS.

22

THE COURT:

23

MS.

25

I did read that there has

pa r en s a nd i t was negat l v 9 f o r a ll s ubstances and tha t's

21

24

lJ]\

I would love to -- I

been s ub mi t t ed

FIELDS:

INGELS:
l.S

I apologize, Your Honor.
Is that correct?
J bet! e ~e th a t ' s

the r a n dom u

THE COURT:

t he on l y o ne th?t ' s

subro ' t_t: f? d th..rough I CP -.

And visitation today was going to be at

41

,r--"

1
2

Sunflower?
Is that correct, Ms. Jackson?

3

4

MS. JACKSON:

Visitation today is actually going to

be supervised

5

THE COURT:

6
7

~h e n

he~g'O Lng

is

~

vi S l t a tlon ?
MS .

8

to be done fo r

th

t

DRUG TEST FOR CANNABISITHC

T

THE COURT:

We l l, th at ' s what

h~s

~ o urt ' s

be no visi "a Lons un i l UA ' s are done a nd

JUDGE BOSCH IS
CONCERNED SOLELY- 2
WITH- DRUG TEST
FOR CANNABIS

Now,

I have one more q ue s l on, an

that is, there was

13

reference to -- in the report about the children doing

14

activities that was somehow connected to church attendance.
MS. INGELS:

15

That's my understanding that the parents

16

were not allowing the children to participate in Halloween

17

activities unless the placements were taking them to a church.

18

However,

19

parents have consented to the children participating in trick

20

or treating and Halloween parties.

it's my understanding that's been resolved, the

Very well.

21

THE COURT:

22

MR. DEBENHAM:

Ho n o r , T mig h t me n io n t hat UA

You~

23

'",as aone on th e 14th,

24

vi s i t, so

25

t o d ay becau se o ne was a)read y d o ne b efore

r

a nd t ha t

don't th in k t h a

a

wa s Qone i n p r epa r at l on

01: t

U~

fo~

wo uld need t o be done
his v sl t.

is

42

There may need to be UA's done before subsequent visits

1

2

but I don't think there needs to be one for this visit.
You r HonOr ,

MS. INGELS:

3

I would

~5k

th

we ju s

4

h, ve them go downs t a i r s pnd do one wi t h cour t services .

5

Obviously, if there's nothing to hide,

6

having another UA today.

7

into.
MS.

8

9

This is the issue that we've run

Your Honor,

you order did say the UA's

should be weekly, and October 14th is not a week away.

10
11

FIELDS:

there's no issue with

THE COURT:
All right.

I know that Miss Fields, thank you.

NOw, one other thing is, and that is I'm not

12

sure what the current address is for Mr. Schwab because some of

13

the mail that the county has sent, the clerk's office, has been

14

returned,

15

current address,

just for the record.

MR. DEBENHAM:

16
17

so what is, Mr. Debenham, what is your client's

It's the address that is on the KVC

report,

18
19

THE COURT:

Thank you.

The prior orders that this

20

Court has made will remain in full force and affect so far as

21

they're not modified or inconsistent with the orders that I

22

make afterwards here.

23

The Court finds that the appropriate public and private

24

agencies have made reasonable efforts to facilitate the

25

permanency plan that I will officially adopt today.

One that's

43

1

been presented in the report and the one that's been given to

2

the parents.

3

4
5

6
7

8
9

10
11
12
13
14

15

Because the goal of the code,

as pointed out by Mr.

16

Debenham, is reintegration and I will make the finding today

17

that reintegration is still a viable alternative.

18

Department of Human Services says that it'd be appropriate for

19

a two month period to wait before they go ahead and attempt to

20

complete the ICPC so before I make my final orders,

21

thinking that if this Court reviews this case in two months and

22

finds that adequate progress has been made towards the tasks

23

and goals as have been addressed, that the Court can request

24

that the Department of Human Services perform another ICPC.

25

The

I'm

Anybody object to having a review hearing in approximately ,

44

1

two months from now?

2

MS. INGELS:

No.

3

MS.

No.

4

MR. DEBENHAM:

5

MS. JOHNSON:

6

THE COURT:

7

10

No.
So I will -- let's set a time and date

This letter was dated a week ago today so two months from
now gets us to the end of December and I don't imagine anyone
wants to work between Christmas and New Years although
MS. INGELS:

11

12

tr~ a l s

13

time.

14

None.

for that right now.

8

9

fIELDS:

We 'r e set fot

~w ~

sepa r ate te r minatio n

i n ot he r d !V 1S i o n s , so we'll be here, but we won't have

THE COURT:

You won't have time.

The only thing is,

15

we'll address the request for parenting time in a moment.

16

dates to throw out, Mr. Debenham, I have no idea what your

17

docket work is like in Shawnee County, but I'm looking at the

18

week of January the 4th, sir.

19

Would you have -- would there be a time period -- I've got

20

some jury trials that week, but I have time on Monday or

21

Tuesday to schedule this?

22

Some

MR. DEBENHAM:

Your Honor, we have our child in need

23

of care dockets on Monday morning, I think maybe like you do,

24

and I'm a duty attorney all that week for temporary custody

25

order hearings so I'm pretty much shot unless we can do it

45

1

on -

2

dur

well,

the mornings,

I could do

THE COURT:

Would you

3
4

in t

I think on like Tuesday,

mor

MR.

6

THE COURT:

7

MR. DEBENHAM:

DE8ENHAM:

I cou

As

, Your Honor.

as I'm

I'm availa
MS. FIELDS;

10

MS. JOHNSON:

11

THE COURT:

That's fine with the State.
I'm avail
What'd be

MR. DEBENHAM:

14

k by 1:00.

e.

e, Your Honor.
r

eference, Mr.

9 o'clock, 10 o'clock, I'm happy to s

13

Your Honor,

Ie it.
I

t up early,

9 o'clock

d work fine with me.

15

THE COURT:

16
17

Yes,

Counsel?

8

12

Ie to do it on January 5th

ng?

5

9

y, Thursday,

well, we'll schedule a review

ring for this case on

9 o'clock, and I'll

y morn
Ie rna

the

h of January at

an

18

That should take care of this, counsel, would you not

19

?

20

MS.

21

THE COURT;

22
23

24
25

a

FIELDS;

Yes, Your Honor.
s Court has adopted the case

I'm glad to hear t

parents are agreeable to IEP's for

ren, and so the Court will
ly and that the
r

to

t

1

an

0

r that this be

e

ne

rents sign whatever documents necessary
1

ion plans

each of the

46

"

.~,

-'-

five children.

2

I am concerned in reviewing the reports that for the

3

middle children,

4

seen anything on asher, for

5

there are some educational needs that need to be met and so I

6

think

7

that but I will sign an order to that affect and when that

8

order -- I think maybe it'd be appropriate to have a separate

9

order, Miss Fields, if you would prepare one, that would just

10

, I've not
and

that

I'm glad to hear that the parents are willing to do

address that issue.

11

MS.

12

THE COURT:

FIELDS:

That's fine,

Your Honor.

And the question is whether there should

13

be an educational advocate.

14

this case, and I'm not sure, but it's still different than

15

being an educational advocate, and I'm going to order that

16

there be an educational advocate appointed, and my reasoning

17

for this is it's tough to parent when you have a long

18

distance

19

parents were in Kansas and present,

20

perform more of a role.

21

The CASA's have done a fine job in

long distance parenting.

It's tough, and if the
I could see that they could

It's obvious, based On the testimony of

, that

22

it's important to have the parents participate in as much as

23

they can.

24

they continue participating in their education in the meetings,

25

but I think

They are going to try to facilitate that, and I hope

alluded to that the parents' location

47

1

is a problem, and because of that, we want to error on the side

2

of abundance of caution to provide for the education of these

3

children.

4.

they're young, early in school, and it's important for them to

5

get a good foundation,

6

Now, moving on to

They are at a critical stage in their education,

so I'm going to order that.
I won't make a finding today

liliiii

7

regarding viability of reintegration with the father of

8

because then that kicks in other factors that we need to deal

9

with.

10
I believe that he

11

.-,

12

should see his mother.

13

he might be mad at her, upset with her, that we want to try to

14

facilitate a relationship between mother and son and so

15

might be difficult, it might not have to be very long, but I

16

believe that it's important for him to see his mother today and

17

whenever else she comes back.

18

I believe that is important even though

it

Irm going to order that there be some counseling, family
He's been through a lot with the

19

counseling, for

20

statements made by the father's counsel today, although

21

wasn't in court to hear that.

22

indicate there was much friction between the father when

23

tried to reintegrate with him, so I think family counseling for

24
25

would be defin

There's obviously reports

ely appropriate and I will so order that,

and hopefully that can be done by Skype or telephone or however

48

1
2

it is to start with.
Costs for the task

the tasks, whatever funds are

3

available to the agency to help the parents should be provided.

4

I'm not going to order that certain things be done as far as

5

payments made.

6

suggesting a RADAC evaluation.

7

done in Kansas since the father and mother are now in Colorado,

8

it's going to be done by a different agency, and if there's

9

funds available for that, so be it, and I'll order the KVC to

10
11

The tasks are clear.

The initial task was

Of course, that would have been

try to assist them in paying for any of those tasks.
Now, regarding visitation over the holidays,

just like the

12

parents are allowed to come and visit their children now, a ll

13

t he y have to do is pass t hat wee kl y OA, and I'm ordering that

14

they have parenting time and visitation.

15

be supervised by either the agency or through

16

whatever, until there's been successful visitation but i

17

s h ould be slJp erv i sed , and if they can come some time during

18

Christmas or Thanksgiving, I'll order visitations, and I have

19

no objection to that, and it can be weekly if the parents can

20

make it back to Kansas to do that.

I believe it needs to

21
22
23

,.--.. -....

24

MS. FIELDS:

25

THE COURT:

That was my understanding, Your Honor.
And the assessment needs to be done

49

"

1

before treatment needs to be required.

2

no treatment,

3

assessment done and I would hope that this can be done within

4

the next two months.

5

here in January that we've had the evaluations done,

6

through with all the counseling, negative UA's as required, and

7

I . . n_ l l p 0 1. nt

8

I 'v e

9

~

0

there's no need for it, but there should be an

OU

I hope two months from now when we come

as

,

o i n te d o u

i f tha t's not

~n

11

t he pa re l"_ t s t.o comply

12

~ ha t

13

downs t ai..cs a t cou rt servi ces so t ha l-

14

v i s i tat io n t o d ay so we can get t ha t

15

be li e ve t h a t

CANNABIS

f O@

19

cons i der

21
22
23

',0,'1

th the tasks of
e r t ha

0

s h Il l d ta ke ca r

hi s

t h e pa r en ts

of a U

.Qu r.-t ,
t~ k e

SO

wi th

a VA

h ey can ha ve t h e i r
gO~ :1g ,

an

wi t h t ha t,

r

.1 ,ss u e s t oday .

Miss Johnson?

18

20

mi g l t

le s f o rt s h a. ve been made o n the pa r t: of

L ea9011~

n t f i nd tha

17

nd I expec t

t hen t his Cour

~ one ,

10

sa I d , I'll ju st

followed

y the c -o u r'l ty o t t o ney , th a r.

da red we e kl y UA ' s and t ha t n _ds t-a he d n,=

t o be don e,

16

If the assessment says

MS.

JOHNSON:

l. nCe it'

B

'to ur Hono r-,

1 ~9a l

MS. FIELDS:

i

i f

t he mo t.he r" ' s pos i

t- \ e state o f Colo r 'a do , w

tl v e

d you

'T'be Co rt 81 eady ordered that_

These children were taken becallse of- marijuana use .
MS.
th in k it- was

It

JOHNSON:

waul

be con s i d e r ed a p os i ti v e

ut

r

l so --

24

THE COURT:

Mr . De ben h am?

25

MR. DEBENHAM:

I just wanted to add, and I can't cite

, - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - _............................_-----

50

the case, but I knew therers case law out of Sedgwick County
that says 1 £ w ir e

4

eJ.se ,

5

( 'o lor <io and T He sta is oround

6

:::tystm , _fO U can almos · b~t.

7

_ y::;tem

8

should not invalidate a visitation today, or at any time in the

9

future.

sine

em

·~ o ..

I ,Lm I t

11

t·;!"

D e- te n h ~Hr ,

that's not

COU'l3 ' 1 mentloned,

~5

TTl(-l rijuand,

an

'j,

talkin l ab o It

ust

THE COURT:

10

or
i

t i l .:i.t

t hink

l'::

· i.e a
IS

rnDn l~

901;19

s.h, ul.:j

is leg - l

~~r:

Sf:\

u be in
b~

jn

in yo ur

-h . i r

involi " I:e -- it

Thank you.

! 'I I s o rr y t o in fo rm y OI

t l.i:1 t

l ' 'le addres s ed

12

t h i : alr e d y in thi s c a s e, a n d : wa s specif i cally aS ked by your

13

c lient if

h~

wou l d be

Wa S

~6,

L hd

Lo use ma rl lud na, i f rhe pa - nts

' ll ow ~d

mar tju- n a s ince

14

~t

it wa

0 ,

,,;,(1.

m

I

not

I"m '"!T't:7I::-;;;(-W..j-!O,;"t;,."e-..o.1~:..b..J.:i--E~~--t:earw,
~-l ,

a nd rna y be you'll h a verno re

17

work to do to convince me that I'm wrong, but that is my order.

18

I wi11 o r d er t ha t

the

19

lere t o Ja y a nd 1£

~n rl ee d

20

OS l t

'!e,

t h En

be

~

IA' ~

c he p

r h& vi. s i.: at io li

done s o we can have a ba sel n e
r ~ nt s

' 11

:'10 _

( i. c o r

<' , a "y',

but I ' l l

21

order that that be done, and with that, I wish you all a good

22

day.

23
24
~~

ma rl j l~ n ~ ,

2

25

Miss Ingels?
MS. INGELS:
ordered that,

I

just wanted to clarify, one, you

is to participate in visits with his mother,

51

1

is

2

I

5

THE COIJRT:

suff

7

9

t

I

11

MS. INGELS:

12

THE COURT:

15
16
17
18
19
20

21
22

23
24
25

wee

And t

re should be
I

once a week

, on that family
f

Just

S

and

Just wanted to c
With that, we are

you.
END OF THE

mother at

i

or that Raymond would
THE COURT:

14

t t

, are you ordering that

10

13

~,

s t

r

he can

ient in the

MS. INGELS:
counsel

h

re's no way

his mother and I would s

contact wi

8

Yes, because

ing with his

ve coun

6

s wi

ca

just want it to be clear.

3
4

in

also to partie

k you.