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Transcript interview: 29th June 2010

...you have been examined by the medical staff here al right the time now is ten past twelve on the
afternoon of Tuesday 29thth June 2010 this is...

Elavi: i've got a pain in my chest

DC Benn: yes but you have been examined by better people than me, more educated people than me
you went to the hospital yesterday and they said you are fit to be detained. You have been assessed
under the mental health act and they say you are fit to be detained. I'm just going to ask you some
questions about what happened at the hospital yesterday (Elavi: Yeh) do you understand that?

Elavi: yeh

DC Benn: Alright then, I'm DC Ben I'm joined by my colleague DC McNichalous. You have been
arrested for an offence of a public order offence under section four of the public order act and that
happened yesterday afternoon at the royal Preston hospital in the accident and emergency unit there.

Elavi: is that where I was?

DC Benn: yeah that's where you were. You was with police officers and quite a few medical staff
there at the hospital because then you said you had this pain, you got taken up to the hospital and
you have been examined and said fit to be detained by us at the police station.

Elavi: So it was you here that decided I was fit to be detained?

DC Benn: No the medical staff I wouldn't certainly say I was

Elavi: Not when Dr. Durum...is it durum? Dr durum? Durum?

DC Benn: yes

Elavi: The Dr. that discharged me, can I make sure that I am pronouncing his name correctly.

DC Benn: It is Durum I am sure you are quite correct. Anyway that's why you've been arrested.
Before we go any further I must caution you.

Elavi: Can I say?

Stephen: You do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence

Elavi: Durham right?

DC Benn: Durham would say he's right yes that you are fit to be detained?

Elavi: No is it, is it, Dr. Durum who discharged me?

DC Benn: I don't know which Dr. it was. Its the public order offence we're interviewing you
regarding. Alright, so you do not have to say anything but it may harm your defence if you do not
mention when questioned something you later rely on in court anything you say may be given in
evidence. Now that is a mouthful do you understand what the nature of the caution means?
Do you understand what the caution means?
Elavi: Can I clarify it?

DC Benn: You clarify it then. What do you understand by the caution?

Elavi: It means that anything that I say maybe erm,

DC Benn: what it means is you don't have to answer our questions, nothing can happen to you if
you don't answer the questions. Do you understand that part of the caution?

Elavi: Can I act as my own legal representation?

DC Benn: Course you can.

Elavi: in all legal matters from now on?

DC Benn: You can by all means, alright.

DC Benn: but you understand that you don't have to answer the questions don't you?

Elavi: I’d like to make a statement.

DC Benn: well you can make your statement but when you've explained the nature of the caution to
you. Then you can have full our full attention and all that of the tape alright? So you don't have to
answer the questions do you understand that?

Elavi: all i'm saying is this, the pain in my chest and the pins and needles in my hand and the pain in
my neck and my head. I don't know if erm...

DC Benn: if your going to speak up you'd better speak up so the microphone can hear you.

Elavi: (laughs/sighs)

DC Benn: OK, so. Seeing as you won't let us finish the

Elavi: you could have had it down.

DC Benn: pardon:

Elavi: You could have had the microphone down here.

DC Benn: Could have had the microphone but its not its fixed to the wall there. Right seeing as
you're short of breath you save your energy and I’ll carry on explaining the caution to you. The
caution goes on to explain that if you don't answer the questions now and this matter goes to court
and then at court you give an explanation or answer all the courts questions do you understand that
part? They may think well what Mr. Dowie says to us now makes and awful lot of sense but then
they may just take an adverse interest and think hang on a sec if its right what he's saying to us now
why didn't he tell those two nice officers on this the first opportunity? Has he needed time to get his
story together? Do you understand that?

Elavi: you're saying a lot of stuff

DC Benn: I am saying a lot of stuff

Elavi: if if if can I clarify?

DC Benn: no no no just let me exp' carry on explaining and then i'll stop talking and you can take
over alright?

Elavi: Can I just clarify what you said?

DC Benn: N...well...go on then?

Elavi: You said that what I say here now when I go to court to legally represent myself in the court
of the land.

DC Benn: You're wasting your chance you better if you wanting to give an explanation speak up
and then the tape can listen to you alright?

Elavi: Yeh (slightly inaudible)

DC Benn: So go on, if you when you defending yourself at court...you were half way through...no?

Elavi: Erm...

DC Benn: You wanted to clarify the part of the caution I’ve said up to now. Are you do you
understand what I’m s yeah? Do you want to add anything? Or do you want me to carry on
explaining the caution?

Elavi: Yeah explain it.

DC Benn: Right it goes on to say if you answer the questions now but this matter still goes to court
and then at court you give a completely different answer to the questions or different version of
events the court won't know which one to believe because two different stories both can't be the
truth can they?

Elavi: no

DC Benn: and finally this is the part the microphone comes into anything you say may be given in
evidence and that's because that microphone tries to pick up everything that we say and that's why
you have to speak up and it is purely audible so its only the answers you give via your mouth that
are picked up. It doesn’t pick up shaking your head or nodding your head.

Elavi: yeh

DC Benn: OK and the microphone goes to these three machines..er..tape. Goes to this machine that
has three tapes in it. The red one is the master, i'm keep ga.. I keep getting tongue tied now.

Elavi: was that a Freudian slip or just a

DC Benn: a Freudian slip...I don't know what you mean by that..I keep saying there’s three tapes
here but I actually mean

elavi: Just made that odd statement is that a Freudian slip

DC Benn: I don't know what you mean by that.

Elavi: or just a mistake

DC Benn: it was a mistake

Elavi: oh

DC Benn: I'm only human, I do make mistakes, anyway there's three different colours tapes here

Elavi: You make mistakes,

DC Benn: yes

Elavi: Stephen Benn you make mistakes?

DC Benn: Mmm

Elavi: even now

DC Benn: even now after all this time I still make mistakes

Elavi: how old are you?

DC Benn: oh I’m old enough

Elavi: and have you had much sleep?

DC Benn: I've had plenty of sleep, I sleep well. Right, the red tape is a master copy and at the end
of this interview I’m going to ask you to sign this seal that gets wrapped around that tape. Alright?
The yellow one is a police working copy and we can listen to that tape as many times as we would
like and the white one goes with any file of evidence so should this matter go to court if you
manage to get to court and represent yourself you can have that white tape by all means do you
understand that?

Elavi: what do you mean if I manage to get to court?

DC Benn: well your in agony aren't you? You keep telling me you are in severe pain. Right and also
at the end of this interview you are going to sign this form which is a TR2 which explains how you
can get a copy of the tape. But that is normally prior to any court case and normally at your own
expense. Alright so when I ask you questions do you have to answer? You get the top copy its
alright you get to keep this. So do you have to answer our questions?.....Mr. Dowie do you have to
answer our questions?

Elavi: hello what?

DC Benn: do you have to answer our questions during this interview? Do you understand what
we've tried to explain the caution.

Elavi: As I believe, I do not have to answer anything.

DC Benn: That is brilliant that that means you have understood that part of the question. And how
many and how many pieces of paper am I going to get you to sign at the end of this interview?
Elavi: I'm trying to be co-operative officer you know that’s why I’m trying to answer everything.

DC Benn: good lad, good lad, I don't question that. I'm just asking you how many pieces of paper
you have to sign? That one is for the seal that goes around the red tape and that one is to explain
how you can get a copy of the tape. So that’s two signatures I require at the end of this interview do
you understand that?

Elavi: (inaudible)

DC Benn: right in you, oh and you are entitled to free and independent legal advice I believe you
have spoken to a solicitor yesterday that doesn’t want to act on your behalf is that correct?

Elavi: a lot of people have spoken to me

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DC Benn: right are you happy now to be interviewed without that solicitor.

Elavi: if it will get me out of here

DC Benn: well I can't guarantee that but it will assist us

Elavi: can I not get out of the cell, first to just have a break?

DC Benn: a break?

Elavi: You know, just have a break out of the cell you know and get something to eat and a drink.

DC Benn: As soon as you have finished in this interview we will make sure, well we have given
you three drinks of water and I’m sure you'll get some food if required. And i'm sure earlier today
you've been offered food.

Elavi: As soon as I went to say you know he just went he just asked me and went I turned round just
to say yes and he just turned away.

DC Benn: Right well we'll make sure you get some food

Elavi: Its been days

DC Benn: After this interview

Elavi: its been days days days days.

DC Benn: days without food? will it must have been a lot of visits to you. Anyway.

Elavi: (sighs)

DC Benn: anyway, can you tell us what happened yesterday at the accident and emergency ward

Elavi: well the last thing I remember was being walked out of my cell 7.15 to go to court.

DC Benn: and what time was that

Elavi: I have no idea what time it was I’d been in a cell for over 24 hours so.

DC Benn: So are we saying that yesterday you were walked out of your cell to go to court.

Elavi: I was going to the...i..i was.. they told me I was going to go to court to face charges on er...i
was going to court...

DC Benn: you were going to court yeah?

Elavi: and as I walked out of my room and walked up the desk (inaudible) erm... up to i was
walking up to the yellow square where you have to stand and er I just got a rush of blood to my
head and I err felt the room spinning and fell over. I tried to ask for the assistance of the officer that
was next to me but as I went out to grab his hand I missed and slipped onto the floor.

DC Benn: Right so you fell over yesterday morning going on your way to court. You fall over in the
custody office.

Elavi: Is that the custody office out there?

DC Benn: Yeah, it contains cell 15 that you, where you been staying.

Elavi: yeah I been in there for 50 sixty hours now

DC Benn: 60 hours that’s a lot of days that. Anyway, so you fall over

Elavi: Please can I have a break

DC Benn: No we've only been going 12 minutes

Elavi: I don't mind it here its cool speaking to you guys but I mean in the room in that room I you
know...

DC Benn: but you're in a different room now

Elavi: (sighs)

DC Benn: you're in a different room its a whole different environment in here. There’s no glass in
here ok.

Elavi: Yawns

DC Benn: so do you remember anything yesterday morning after you entered the custody office and
then you fall over. Then what happens?

Elavi: (crying) I look up and I see the face of the officer

DC Benn: you look up and see the face of the officer

Elavi: I trying to ask for help.

DC Benn: and what does that officer do?

Elavi: he's just one of the officers here

DC Benn: who?

Elavi: he's just one of the officers here

DC Benn: he's just one of the officers here? Yeah and then what does he do if you've if you've fallen
over does he pick you up or what?

Elavi: He said, (inaudible) he's not going to court now, stick him back in his cell, drag him back to
his cell. So they dragged me back to my cell so I say and put me in there and I say I’ll go I’ll go I’ll
go I just need some water and I’ll go. But if I get out of this cell I could get some medical help
before I go to court and. (inaudible)

DC Benn: Yeah so they take you back to your cell and you're thinking I’ll be alright and I’ll get
some medical help. Right so they take you back to your cell and they what happens?

Elavi: (crying)

DC Benn: Then what happens? Do they take you to the hospital?

Elavi: I remember drifting in and out of consciousness in the cell, I’d wake up and hear voices and
then I’d go again. I'd wake up I’d hear voices. I think there was a woman there said he's an actor
he's good this one I’m very impressed, very impressed by his acting.

DC Benn: Acting?

Elavi: She said

DC Benn: Is that about you?

Elavi: Yes and she pinched my ear and I felt a shoot in my ear and she said oh he didn't flinch at that
I don't know if I think I drifted again.

DC Benn: Is this a police officer or medical staff testing you're reflexes?

Elavi: I think, I didn’t see her face, I know that it was a woman’s voice and I hadn’t spoken to many
females so I think it was a nurse (inaudible)

DC Benn: a nurse

Elavi: yeah, was it a nurse

DC Benn: well I don't know I wasn't here I wasn’t dealing with you. I wasn't in the custody office
yesterday so you think you were tested your reflexes by a nurse but it was definitely a female and
was that in the police station or was that up at hospital?

Elavi: that was in the cell when I’d been dragged back

DC Benn: right
Elavi: The guy said drag him back to his cell he's not going to court now he'll go to court in the
afternoon. So then the medical practitioner came in and I was erm and they said I don't who it was
straight away she said this or a little time after I felt my ear that sharp just speak to her tell her
what’s happening. But at the time its like my body was asleep.

DC Benn: right so then what happened

Elavi:it just went on feel like I’d wake up and then I heard her say...someone say...throw some hot
water in his face he'll wake up then

DC Benn: throw some hot water in his face? Are you sure it was hot water not cold?

Elavi:that was the funny thing it was a guys voice and he said Elavi we're going to throw some
boiling water in your face now

DC Benn: Boiling water its got better than hot?

Elavi: when he did it he didn’t actually throw it he just trickled it down and it was cold and I was
thinking why can't this stop.

DC Benn: and you was thinking why can't I respond?

Elavi: its like my body was just

DC Benn: right so then what happened?

Elavi: (inaudible) what else did I hear then say? (inaudible) there was more than one female she
said his blood pressure is very high

DC Benn: Well that must be medical staff mustn't it

Elavi: his blood pressure is very high and all I can say is that nobody verified themselves whilst I
was conscious. Nobody said I’m from such and such (inaudible)crowded voices (inaudible) trying
to remember everybody's...you've got a cut on your arm there

DC Benn: yes I fell off a bike

Elavi: are you okay?

DC Benn: I’m fine thanks for your concern

Elavi: did you get medical attention?

DC Benn: nah I didn't need it when you are my age you're just happy to be alive every morning. But
thanks for your concern.
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Elavi: you're welcome sir

DC Benn: Good lad. Right so somebody says you've got high blood pressure, another female

Elavi: I don't know. Somebody said hight blood pressure and his extremities are cold meaning that
my hand, my fingers were cold.

DC Benn: yeah
Elavi: the extremities were cold. What else i'm trying to remember.

DC Benn: and did you have one of them strappings on your arm at that time when they checked
your blood pressure?

Elavi: strappings, strappings strappings

DC Benn: cos they don't just go to you and say your blood pressure high they put the devise round
your arm and pump it up don't they to check your blood pressure did you have one of those on?

Elavi: I could have been asleep. (crying) Could I have some tissues please?

DC Benn: well we've none free at this moment in time you'll be alright you've got your erm
whatever its called your blue suit we'll get you a clean one of those when we get back so go on.

Elavi: its very undignified to be wiping my nose on my clothes

DC Benn: well its...well alright then err tom err leave the tapes on we'll just nip next door and get
some tissues for him

Elavi: its inhumane

DC Benn: pardon?

Elavi: its inhumane to have to

DC Benn: its inhumane

Elavi: no to have to wipe it on your clothes and have to urinate on the floor in a cell.

DC Benn: well we haven't made you do that have we

Elavi: I asked I have been made to do that

DC Benn: Just for the purposes of the tape I'm going to continue speaking to Mr. Dowie whilst my
colleague goes to get him a tissue for his nose which isn't running at this time. So you think you had
your blood pressure taken and it was a female member of staff.

Elavi: well as I say I was in and out of consciousness and possibly when they put the blood pressure
machine on my hand...on my arm at that time I was just not aware of it. I remember somebody
saying.

DC Benn: his blood pressure 's high

Elavi: yeah

DC Benn: Just for the purposes of the tape my colleague has returned and has got some tissues hear
you are Mr. Dowie. Right so you think this is at the hospital do you remember how you went up to
the hospital.

Elavi: I remember...I remember being, just moving and I thought I'm on a stretcher you know
DC Benn: pardon?

Elavi: I remember moving and I thought I’m on a stretcher now.

DC Benn: oh you remember moving and thinking you was on a flat plate like a stretcher yeah?
Elavi: you know when I was in the cell and the voices were going on my fear was that they were
believing that I was just acting there was, there was nothing wrong with me just acting and I
thought to myself (inaudible)

DC Benn: so go on we've got you at the hospital and you've got this blood pressure

Elavi: I didn't know where I was

DC Benn: you didn't know where you were

Elavi: That blood pressure thing you're talking about

DC Benn: yeah

Elavi: when I erm was where did you say you say it was I was

DC Benn: the accident and emergency ward up at hospital

Elavi: when I came round there was a pain well it was like my arm was just expanding expanding
expanding like it was going to blow up and I heard a machine going like (makes machine noise)
you know up whirring up and when it stopped and went down the pain the pressure and that’s when
I came around I opened my eyes and looked down the bed and there was an officer stood there I
could hear the sound of like hospital machinery beeps and so forth I concluded that I was in a
hospital at that point.

DC Benn: Right,

Elavi: up until then I’d drifted out in and out of consciousness again I wanted to speak to people and
move my hands erm

DC Benn:so do remember shouting out and screaming out Katherine Katherine?

Elavi: oh somebody mentioned she was there didn’t they.

DC Benn: who is Katherine?

Elavi: there was a nurse who said his partners here can she speak to him? That was like a dream that
I though when I heard that I thought is she where is she?

DC Benn: so is your partner Katherine?

Elavi: katherine is yeah.

DC Benn: so what's her surname?

Elavi: Katherine Jubb

DC Benn: Katherine?
Elavi: Jubb

DC Benn: Jobb?

Elavi: Jubb

DC Benn: Jubb, oh right so was she at hospital or was you just dreaming she was there?

Elavi: no no no if the nurse is to be believed was she a nurse who said that his partners here?

DC Benn: I don't know? You're telling me I wasn't there but there's medical staff saying you're
screaming out Katherine Katherine they're going to kill me Katherine get me out of here please. I
was wondering who Katherine was.

Elavi: my partner.

DC Benn: oh right and then I’ve asked you was she there at hospital?

Elavi: Somebody said she's here they said to the police officer erm that his partner's here I heard
somebody actually say has he got a partner? And then you know they started checking into whether
I had a partner. I think she was there I didn't see her and if she was there when I shouted her name
I’m sure she would have come to my aid.

DC Benn: yep d'ya remem so Katherine is your partner

Elavi: was she there?

DC Benn: I keep saying I don't know

Elavi: but you was at the hospital I take it

DC Benn: I wasn't at the hospital

Elavi: well you know the people who have made statements against me

DC Benn: yeah they were at the hospital and they don't mention your partner being there I think the
had more things on their mind trying to restrain you when you're going berserk in the accident and
emergency ward.

Elavi: six yeah

DC Benn: I think it took the best part of six persons to restrain you why were you why were you
needing to be restrained by so many people then?

Elavi: can I give an account of what I remember?

DC Benn: this is why you're here this is your interview you give that account

Elavi: thank you where am I up to

DC Benn: giving you're account of why it took six people to restrain you
Elavi: okay as I say I came around and I felt a pumping sensation in my arm like one would if they
were having their blood pressure taken I’ve had my blood pressure taken in the past and it usually
goes to a certain level of the pressure but this one was to the far extreme it felt like if the machine
carried on increasing it would blow or my arm would blow. I could hear the worry in the medical
practitioners voice a nurse a male nurse and he said kept saying to me stop acting no one in my
experience is unconscious and there eyes blink and because he was a medical person I believed him
and I thought well they (inaudible) think I'm acting so I tried to speak to him at that point but again
I was just exhausted totally exhausted. You want to know about when I actually tried to raise the
alarm in the hospital erm I’d like to make a distinction between going berserk and raising the alarm
when somebody is in fear you know I panicked I’ll admit to that

DC Benn: so

Elavi: i'll admit to that (inaudible) please

DC Benn: go on carry on why did you panic?

Elavi: I just did

DC Benn: (inaudible) go on

Elavi: surrounded by six police officer you say is that correct

DC Benn: no I didn’t say there was six police officer I said six persons had to restrain you because
you was going berserk in the A&E

Elavi: ok well

DC Benn: so your not

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Elavi: You wasn't in A&E you've already said that so you can't define how a man is behaving so to
use the word berserk which I believe comes from berserka people that had gone crazy and had no
moralistic values but I think by law I am not immoral and I am not berserk and I have a moral that
says I treat humans with the greatest of respect.

DC Benn: right well you just said you panicked yesterday so what made you panic? What made you
panic to such an extent

Elavi: I even have compassion for yous two

DC Benn: right well this is your interview and I want you to explain why you panicked at the a&e
and went I said berserk you said that's an incorrect word you tell me what happened that you needed
restraining by six persons.

Elavi: well the thing that happened that made me so fearful for my life was when erm..Dr. Durham
was it?

DC Benn: I don't know you keep telling me its Dr Durham but I don't know
Elavi: He discharged me he was stood to the left of me he was the first person I hear saying their
name I don't remember anybody else saying their name I remember their words cos their engraved
in my mind

DC Benn: right

Elavi: and he was fearful, and because of his fear I was afraid because I had entrusted myself to that
Dr. and Dr. Durham I keep saying Durham but please officers check out his name he will be on the
discharge notes

DC Benn: right well

Elavi: he was the one who discharged me he said this and I really want everybody to hear this
because i'm going to try stand up for the thingy because you know

DC Benn: Well you tell us and we'll repeat it so it's on the tape go on

Elavi: I’m going to stand up (inaudible) I at this moment believe that the Dr. who discharged me is
Dr. Durhum and he said these words we can only say fit for release from the hospital we cannot say
that he is fit for detention because people die in police custody and he mentioned an event where
somebody died in police custody recently and this had caused the hospital staff in most probably the
entire country medical profession to look at the guidelines with regards to patients in police custody
and because he didn't want to say that I was fit for detention I became fearful because I thought well
they are going to send me back to the cell the police are going to detain me again I didn't think I
was fit for no questioning I didn't think I was fit for detention now Stephen Benn you said that oh
sorry I forgot something we cannot say he is fit for detention the Dr. said somebody else will have
to say that he is fit for detention a police officer or sergeant will have to say that he's fit for
detention that’s what happened I (inaudible) stand by that statement.

DC Benn: so what you're saying is you are at the hospital they've put a device on you that almost
makes your arm explode and then you hear the Dr say to the police officers

Elavi: was it Dr. Durham?

DC Benn: I don't know you keep asking me you're a bit obsessed with names aren't you you must
have mentioned my name three times any way we'll go on so this Dr. that you don't know says that
you are going to be released from the hospital but only a police sergeant or officer can say you are
fit to be detained by us so that made you panic is that correct?

Elavi: yeah I was in fear because I thought

DC Benn: I’m going to die in police custody

Elavi: When the Dr, said that somebody died in police custody recently I thought if he's not going
to keep me here

DC Benn: you've got to come back to police custody and that’s where you thought you was going to
die.

Elavi: looking at you two guys now sat here there’s no way I can see two men like you comi9ng
into a room and killing anyone I can't see it its just not humane you know but through neglect a man
could die in there let me tell you something honestly sir when I call you by you name that because I
hope that somebody is going to look at me as a human just like yourself

DC Benn: Well we've treat you well have we not?

Elavi: I tell you this Stephen the way I’ve been in this room over these days I can't take it any more

DC Benn:is that why you've gone a little wild then and didn’t want detaining by us and is that why
you've tried to not come back?

Elavi: I understand why you've said that Stephen said I went wild

DC Benn: Well you don't like the word berserk but if it needs six people to restrain you

Elavi: they didn't restrain me officer and I didn't go wild wild is

DC Benn: is from another word meaning

Elavi: no, no, no go on. I've never tried to put words into your mouth Stephen so please don’t try to
put words into my mouth

DC Benn: well you tell me why it took six people to

Elavi: I am a civilized human being I’ve never been wild this is what you say about animals of the
kingdom

DC Benn: please answer the question why did it take six people to restrain you?

Elavi: I’m a human being

DC Benn: I don't dispute that that’s why I’m talking to you

Elavi: I’ll explain why it took six people, to they feared. the officers feared that what I was saying
would hilight police corruption that's why they started beating me in my chest and hitting me in the
head.

DC Benn: about police corruption? The policeman hit me in my head so many times it was like
fireworks going off in my brain just flashes of white light bang bang and I thought well when when
when I sat up and when I heard the Doctor say I heard the doctor say you know police custody and I
knew I was going back I looked at the policeman and I thought (crying) I cant go back there

DC Benn: pardon?

Elavi: I thought I can't go back there to the cell (inaudible) hospital I thought they would look after
me

DC Benn: yeah but when the doctor said you'd been released, discharged from the hospital,

Elavi: I thought to myself

DC Benn: you panicked that you was coming back to us.

Elavi: I looked I looked to the right of the police officer and I saw a yellow switch on the wall and I
thought press ...press the little switch and the nurses will come back so I said just press it now and
my action was to press it and I made a move or I tried to my hand wouldn't move I was in the
handcuffs.

DC Benn: so you tried to press the yellow button to get more staff to come to you.

Elavi: I just didn’t want to go back to the cell officer.

DC Benn: so you didn't want (inaudible) so and that's because you didn't want to come back to the
police station because you feared that rouge policemen might kill you in custody.

Elavi: I didn't think that officer its what the discharging doctor said to be heard by everybody there

DC Benn: what that the police were corrupt and were

Elavi:once again I’m not going to put words into that doctors mouth you will have a statement from
this doctor

DC Benn: yeah but I’m just trying to clarify that point you said that the police officers are corrupt
this is what the pl the doctor is saying in you full

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Elavi:N,n,n,n,n

DC Benn: Ah right

Elavi: N,n n n n n once again you're going way off base way off base. I said that the doctor said I
said it for the I stood up and said it for the purpose for the microphone I said that he said that he's fit
to bit to be discharged

DC Benn: Yes

Elavi: as we see him although I’m sure the tests didn't come back tests the have to run you know I
presented with with what could have manifested as a whole host of medical conditions.

DC Benn: you did what?

Elavi: I presented with a whole host of what could be.

DC Benn: How do you know cos you're unconscious

Elavi: I’m unconscious exactly

DC Benn: so how do you know what you're presenting to the medical staff what your ailments are?

Elavi: Exactly

DC Benn: Unless you were acting and just (inaudible)

Elavi: wait wait wait let's hold it

DC Benn: no hang on a sec

Elavi: are you saying I was acting as well?

DC Benn: no if you

Elavi: you telling that I was acting

DC Benn: You're telling me that you're presenting

Elavi: wait a minute wait a minute

DC Benn: ailments to the medical staff if you don't know what and you was unconscious all the
way through.

Elavi: I didn't say I was unconscious all the way through

DC Benn: so you keep coming past and saying you blood pressure's high you remember that

Elavi: no no no this was when blood pressure’s high was when we was back in the cell you're
obviously back tracking in order to throw me off but you can't throw me off because what is right
what is just and what is true cannot be changed so therefore if what happened to me is true and it is
inevitably and irrevocably true then no amount of lies that you bring against this man will prevail
because what is right and what is true will always stand do you understand.

DC Benn: right so let me

Elavi: If there is a miscarriage of justice then it may take ten, twenty years to be revealed and
maybe I’ll become known as the Preston one because there’s nobody involved in this system since
I’ve come here is interested in my welfare in the least not the health care practitioners yet I have
remained here and there I’ve been angry not seen my family in days my little children. Do you have
any children?

DC Benn: I have yes

Elavi: do you love those children?

DC Benn: I do yes

Elavi: would you know the pain of not knowing

DC Benn: well I’m not under investigation for a criminal offence

Elavi: (crying)

DC Benn: So what we're saying now is you have you're blood pressure taken whilst you're in the
cell is that correct?

Elavi:We've gone back to the cell now?

DC Benn: Yeah because you don't remember any of going up to the hospital I’ve asked you
questions how you got to the hospital

Elavi: Boy! I can't we've gone over that bit

DC Benn: no because you didn't answer the questions did you?

(BEEP)

Elavi: that sounds like the machine when I was in the hospital you know when I was when it was
pumping up pumping up pumping up

DC Benn: probably because it came from a machine

Elavi: and when that peep happened it went tszsss down I remember that so clearly just before the
Dr. said he's fit for discharge but

DC Benn: what that buzzer means

Elavi: he's not fit

DC Benn: hang on a sec hang on a sec what that buzzer means is its almost the end of this tape. Do
remember how you got to the hospital? Because well I’ll put another tape in by all means and you
can tell us?

Elavi: Well listen you put the other tape in because if that machine has buzzed and that means we
are in fear of not recording anything and you want to record it because when we go to court you
want to make sure I don't give two versions of events because if I do give two versions of events
you are going to say I was acting and Stephen will stand up and say yeah the brother was acting just
like you've accused me of today.

DC Benn: right well we'll stop the tape its been 43 mins and its still recording what time is it now
please

DC MacNichalous: 1:55

DC Benn: right and we'll stop?

Elavi: What day is this?

New Tape:

Elavi: can I see my children?

DC Benn: no just let me time it and date it its now er..well its

Elavi: can I see Katherine?

DC Benn: 12:55 on the er.. Tuesday 29th June 2010. This is a continuation of an interview with Mr.
Dowie i'm DC Benn from Preston CID and I’m joined by my colleague

DC McNichalous: DC McNichalous

DC Benn: The urgency of putting this tape in was because there was a suggestion that erm.. we may
question or we may be questioned on exactly what Mr. Dowie says whilst during this interview so I
hurriedly put a second set of tapes in.

Elavi: No officer officer I didn't say

DC Benn: will you accept that we've

Elavi: you said I was acting

DC Benn: no I didn't I just said you said about

Elavi: Oh boy!

DC Benn: erm

Elavi: officer

DC Benn: was it was it you said you gave them all these ailments at the hospital.

Elavi: I didn’t say anything

DC McNichalous: Presenting was the word

DC Benn: presenting that’s the word anyway I must remind you that you are still under caution as
so you do not have to say anything unless you wish to do so but it may harm your defence if you do
not mention when questioned something you later rely on in court anything I’ve explained it once
I’m sure sure are you happy to continue with this interview?

Elavi: Oh officer I so I so I so just want to see my children for a minute

DC Benn: well there’s nothing we can regarding seeing your children for a minute

Elavi: will I ever get back to home?

DC Benn: I don't know what’s going to happen to you? So what I’m saying to you is

Elavi: its like psychological torture

DC Benn: Its not psychological torture its not we're not going to torture you but we can't discuss
something that is totally out of our hands what I said to you is do you now remember how because
in the first interview which lasted 43 minutes you don't ya didn't remember going to the hospital.
Are you now saying you do remember going to the hospital?

Elavi: I remember being on a moving device

DC Benn: Stretcher

Elavi: That I presumed it was a stretcher and because I’d heard voices of staff I hadn't heard before
female staff I knew that would mean and I relaxed and I thought I assumed I’m here unconscious
I’ve floated in and out of consciousness for the least I don't know 20 minutes hour I don't know
they're going to take me to hospital they are therefore I was unconscious.

DC Benn: so when you

Elavi: I walked up

DC Benn: collapsed

Elavi: I walked up

DC Benn: when you collapsed at the custody desk yeah

Elavi: I walked up to the custody desk

DC Benn: yeah and then you collapsed you fell over

Elavi: a blood rush and as I looked up I remember seeing my eyes flicker and I remember seeing a
female with blonde hair from group 4 staff I was looking at her she was the one that was going to
take me to court I was looking at her and I saw her face look shocked.

DC Benn: Mr. Dowie were you wanting to go to court

Elavi: You keep stopping me from giving my statement

DC Benn: Mr. Dowie were you looking forward to going to court?

Elavi: I can't keep up with you guys honestly not now can we have a break please I can have

DC Benn: no we've just put this tape back in

Elavi: can I have a bit more water?

DC Benn: You can have water at the end of this interview you've had three cups of water you'll be
wanting a toilet break if you have any more water what I’m saying to you is we want to get to the
bottom of this were you looking forward to going to court yesterday morning?...........do you wish to
answer that Mr. Dowie?

Elavi: When you are in a cell and you've been in there for 50 hours 60 hours and you've not eaten
drank and you've not seen you're children then any change that you can have becomes wonderful I
was in that cell and I began to think these people look at you as an animal because I mean there’s
only so many times that you can stay in a cell and people come past you and you try to get eye
contact with them or smile at them or say can you help me please can I go to the toilet and what
happens is they just its almost if they've been told to just ignore you and because you can see them
its its like well they can see me I’ve seen people look at me they know I’m here.

DC Benn: Right Mr. Dowie the question was were you looking forward to going to court yesterday
morning?

Elavi: As I said any change is a beautiful thing because it makes you believe that you know there is
a possibility to getting home to see your children

DC Benn: So you were looking forward to going to court and you had this sudden rush

Elavi: have you informed my next of kin Julie Dowie have you informed her I’ve asked so many
times have you informed my next of kin? Her name is Julie Dowie

DC Benn: I am unaware of that

Elavi: have you been informed of my next of kin?

DC Benn: why would I need to inform your next of kin?

Elavi: like I say when I was in hospital they have a record of my next of kin and she

DC Benn: Are you prepared to answer the questions that I am going to ask you regarding the
offence for which you have been arrested?

Elavi: I am answering all your questions in compliance with the rules you set down at the beginning
of this interview and I will do so forever because I want to help you go I want to help (inaudible)

DC Benn: Yesterday morning when you went to the custody desk were you looking forward to
going to court?

Elavi: I’m here to help you guys

DC Benn: and then you suddenly had a turn and you fall to the floor is that correct and then when
you go up to the hospital because you now remember being on a stretcher and you remember
somebody speaking to you

Elavi: this is the first time I’ve been asked these questions and the way you are talking to me yeah
you know

DC Benn: this is the first time I’ve asked you these questions

Elavi: Can I say can I say you're saying and I now remember this and I now remember that since
we've come once we’ve started this interview and you've dated from the beginning of this interview
is the first time that I have been interviewed on record within the rules that you lay down in the
codes and practices it is the first time that’s why you've told me all these things how to get the tape I
mean for days now people have been saying that last night I was told that two officers would speak
to me but they didn't they brought me in here I spoke to a guy who didn't want to represent me I
begged him I thought he would be here with me today when I had this interview

DC Benn: right

Elavi: Can I have a little bit more water there's no hurry.

DC Benn:i'm going to ask you one final time and then we are going to cease this interview.

Elavi: cease this interview?

DC Benn: Yeah we're going to stop the interviewing I’ve asked you all the questions and you have
given your account unless you want to carry on.

Elavi: officer can I see my children?

DC Benn: that is not one of the questions or answers I can give at this moment in time can you
remember any well no I have no further questions tom is there anything that you wish to ask?

DC McNichalous: I think its been covered your time at the hospital

DC Benn: OK so what you just to summarise that er you at hospital well you were going to court
yesterday morning you collapse because you had a sudden rush of blood you then have treatment in
your cell you then go on a stretcher to RPH you then overhear a doctor.

Elavi: I didn't have any treatment in my cell they didn't administer anything I don't think so because
what they did.

DC Benn: well that’s what I though you said originally but then you said but then you say

Elavi: i'm not changing my story

DC Benn: then you said they put a device on

Elavi: no you told me about the device sir

DC Benn: No I said that’s how they take air err blood pressure

Elavi: If you don't remember you remember the sound of the machine when I was in the hospital
ans

DC Benn: yes

Elavi: and I believed that it was a pressure taking blood pressure taking machine I said and you can
rewind the tape if you like that when a nurse or a medical practitioner used the words his blood
pressure is high.

DC Benn: was it a female?

Elavi: it was a female who said that? And someone else said his extremities are cold that well
obviously they have done

DC Benn: Go on answer tell carry on there where was that said at the hospital or in the cell where
you were treated because I though it would have all happened in the hospital but then you have
corrected

Elavi: you thought

DC Benn: me on the end of the last interview

Elavi: you thought

DC Benn: and said

you thought

DC Benn: and said and said it happened in the cell.

Elavi: You thought

DC Benn: no I’ll listen to that tape and I’m accurate mate I do make mistakes when I start talking at
the beginning

Elavi: you said so at the beginning didn't you?

DC Benn: yeah yeah but I haven’t made a mistake there you said it happened in the cell alright the
time now by my colleagues watch I’m very sorry I forgot to there's another mistake I forgot to put
my watch on this morning but it's now 4 minutes past 1 and I’m going to stop the tape its been
running nine minutes. Go on

Elavi: can I just ask can I not have just a little time with my family

DC Benn: that is totally out of our hands but I’ll go back we'll get you a drink and get you some
food.