P. 1
1-25-11Transcript Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy -Day26 Testimony & Cross Examination of Witness # 2

1-25-11Transcript Canadian Reference Case on Polygamy -Day26 Testimony & Cross Examination of Witness # 2

|Views: 65|Likes:
Published by borninbrooklyn
Testimony and cross examination of anonymous FLDS Witness # 2, who denies any knowledge of underage marriages in Bountiful.
Testimony and cross examination of anonymous FLDS Witness # 2, who denies any knowledge of underage marriages in Bountiful.

More info:

Published by: borninbrooklyn on Feb 19, 2011
Copyright:Attribution Non-commercial

Availability:

Read on Scribd mobile: iPhone, iPad and Android.
download as DOC, PDF, TXT or read online from Scribd
See more
See less

02/19/2011

pdf

text

original

1 Preliminary matters 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 January 25, 2011 Vancouver, B.C. (DAY 26) (PROCEEDINGS COMMENCED AT 10:00 A.M.

) THE CLERK: Order in court. In the Supreme Court of British Columbia at Vancouver, this 25th day of January 2011. Calling the matter concerning the constitutionality of section 293 of the Criminal Code, My Lord. MR. WICKETT: My Lord, I believe my learned friend Mr. Jones wants to address a couple of matters before we commence with evidence. THE COURT: Yes. Thank you. Is everything working in 55, Mr. Jones? MR. JONES: I beg your pardon, My Lord. THE COURT: Is everything working in courtroom 55? MR. JONES: It does seem to be, My Lord. The only difficulty is when we speak over one another and I think we can avoid that. THE COURT: Okay. MR. JONES: I just wanted to address quickly two housekeeping matters. One, there's been a lot of back and forth among counsel regarding schedule for this week and Your Lordship hasn't been privy to that so I thought I would, subject to your direction, tell you what we've decided. We have four days this week. It's anticipated that the two -- sorry, the three anonymous witnesses will go into tomorrow and possibly consume those two days. On Thursday we have plans to make submissions and argument regarding several affidavits that have not yet been admitted. There are several outstanding. My friends have indicated that they don't object to some and they do object to others. So we would propose to argue that at that time. One of the affidavits, or two of the affidavits in dispute are the education affidavits of Mr. Munro and Mr. Vanderboom. And we have made both of those witnesses available for cross-examination by my friend, if they need to, on the Friday following the argument, assuming that their affidavits are admitted. There's one other matter that arises from that and that is my friends have asked us to provide

2 Preliminary matters 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 the raw data from the education authorities that underlies those affidavits, and we're certainly willing to do so and it's technically possible to do it in plenty of time, but because of FOIPA we seek the Court's direction that we do so. So we seek a direction that the Attorney General of British Columbia provide the raw data underlying the affidavits of Mr. Munro and Mr. Vanderboom to counsel for the FLDS to counsel -- or the amicus and to any other counsel that has signed on to cross-examine these two gentlemen. COURT: So is the information aggregated? JONES: It's -- it's in the form of a database, My Lord, and in the form that it's been requested, they have requested it redacted of names which is good because that's the way we have it, but with what's called a personal education numbers, the PENs, which is the method by which a student's progress, if I can put it that way, is tracked through. So this would be confidential information or private information within the terms of FOIPA. Obviously we are allowed to submit it for the purposes of litigation, but we're just more comfortable doing so with the direction from the Court because we're releasing in the sense of advance of it being used in advance of the litigation being used in this case. COURT: Okay. Mr. Wickett, did you have something? WICKETT: No, Mr. Jones has fairly put the case forward. We have sought this information with respect to cross-examination if the affidavits are admitted, and so long as the names of the students frankly are omitted I believe that that is sufficient for privacy purposes and for protecting these students. COURT: Okay. Any other submissions on that? Then I'll make the requested direction. JONES: Thank you, My Lord. COURT: Anything else? JONES: Just one other thing, My Lord, with respect to counsel introductions. We have signed and given to the sheriff the usual sign-in sheet and we propose just to have any counsel who speaks identify themselves before they do so. COURT: Thank you. Okay. Then are we prepared to proceed with the witness?

THE MR.

THE MR.

THE MR. THE MR.

THE

3 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MR. WICKETT: Yes, My Lord, we are. WITNESS NO. 2, a witness, called by the FLDS, sworn. EXAMINATION IN CHIEF BY MR. WICKETT: Q I will try to avoid calling you Witness No. 2, which sounds rather formal, but you have sworn an affidavit in this proceeding? A I have. Q And it's before you? A Yes. Q And on the fourth page is a signature that says Witness No. 2? A Yes. Q Is that your signature? A It is. MR. WICKETT: And, My Lord, this is Exhibit number 79. THE COURT: Yes, thank you. MR. WICKETT: Q You are currently in your early 40s? A Yes, I am. Q And where were you born? A In Creston, BC. Q And you're a member of the FLDS church? A I am. Q And you were born into it? A Yes. Q Were you raised in a family that practised plural marriage? A Yes. Q When you grew up how many wives did your father have? A He had five. Q And when you grew up were all of them in the house? A There were three in the home I lived in. Q And when you grew up how many children were residing in the family home? A At the time I was there approximately 30. Q And roughly how many -- or how many children did your mother have -- how many children are biologically the children of your mother? A 15. Q Now, have some of your siblings left the FLDS community? A Yes. Three have.

4 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A With respect to those that have stayed within the community, do you continue to maintain a relationship with those people? Yes, I do. Has there been any difficulty in maintaining relationships with the three that have left the community? I -- yes, in some ways. I don't seek them out. I have in conversations with them tried to show them that I respect their choice and I hope they respect mine, but as far as -- the values that they have embraced aren't the same as mine. In your -- in your family growing up was education treated as something that was important? Yes, it was. Very -- very much so. My mother encouraged me to finish high school. She encouraged me. She was probably one of my main support in going to college and she was -- she encouraged all of her children to do that. Well, let's just deal with that for a moment. Where did you attend school? In Bountiful. What level did you achieve there? I achieved Grade 12. Can we stop for just a moment, please. COURT: Is there a problem? JONES: Sorry, in what respect? It seems to be working perfectly on this end, My Lord. COURT: Okay. We thought someone was trying to get our attention. WICKETT: Yes. We can hear people speaking so we weren't sure if somebody couldn't hear us or was objecting. JONES: I'm not sure there was speaking on this end, but we apologize if any sotto voce stuff got too loud. COURT: Thank you. WICKETT: Thank you. I'm sorry, we had just asked you what school you attended. Yes. And you said the Bountiful school? Yes. And you achieved what level there? Grade 12. And after high school did you attend college? I attended six years of post secondary education.

Q A

Q A Q A Q THE MR. THE MR. MR. THE MR. Q A Q A Q A Q A

5 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q

A

And after those six years did you achieve a diploma? Yes. All right. Now, have you worked outside the home since you received your education? Yes, I've worked for 19 years. And is your job a job that is within or without the Bountiful community? I worked both. I worked within and without. Okay. Now, are you married? Yes, I am. And how old were you when you were married? I was 16. Do you currently live now in a plural relationship? I do. How many people are in that relationship? My husband has two wives. That includes me. Okay. Speaking obviously only for yourself, can you describe the role or the importance of plural marriage your religious belief? I believe in the teachings of the prophet Joseph Smith, who was the founder of the Mormon church back in the 1800s, and his description of living plural marriage was that it was required to attain the highest degree in the celestial kingdom. Is it your belief that plural marriage is for everyone within the FLDS? No. Why is that? Because it takes a considerable amount of faith and determination to live it the right way. Perhaps you could explain to His Lordship -perhaps you could explain to His Lordship how the marriage process worked in your situation. What happened? Okay. When I was 16 years of age I was very much interested in attending college and so when I was talking about this to my parents they suggested that in order to help me and support me through the college that marriage would be a good idea. And so I thought about that for awhile and I decided that I did want to get married, and so they went and spoke with our prophet at the time. My father came back and we had a discussion about it. He mentioned a name of one of the elders in our church at the time. Although I did not know

6 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 him well I knew he was in good standing with the church. And he told me, he said, this man has no idea that his name has been placed here and you do not have to marry him if you do not want to. He will never know whether you have said yes or no. And I felt good about him and I married him. How long after this discussion did -- were you married? I was married three months later after a period of -- three months later. Okay. And during that three months, were you introduced or did you spend any time with your future husband? Yes, I did. We met every weekend. And I can see that you're -- you might need a little glass of water. Go ahead and take a little sip if you like. I understand that you are the second of your husband's two wives? Yes. Can you describe your relationship with your sister wife. My sister wife and I have lived -- have lived at times in the same home. We've lived in different homes. We are now living again in the same home. I feel that we are both very committed in having a good relationship with each other, and conflict arises, yes, but I feel like that we can deal with it in a reasonable manner. Well, since you've raised that subject. Yes. How are conflicts dealt with in your family? Well, with discussion and negotiation and conciliation. Looking back now, on your life with the benefit of some hindsight, do you feel you made the right decision for yourself and your own life? Yes, I do. I feel like that my husband really supported me through my years of education, and he really has been a lifelong friend to me as well as watched my children while I went to school. As far as having children right away when I was that young I wouldn't -- looking back I would have waited longer to have children. Why is that? It's very difficult to be away from your children as much as I had to be. Just they were young at

Q A Q A Q

A Q A

Q A Q A Q A

Q A

7 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A the time. And the reason you were away was because? Going to school. I see. In nearby towns. Now, are you aware of whether there is a current policy within the FLDS church with respect to the age of marriage? I am aware. What is the policy to your understanding? The policy is that there will be no marriages performed or condoned within the community with anyone under the age of 18. Or that's lawful in the area, which is 18. From your standpoint do you agree with that policy? I do. Do you have children? I do. How many children do you have? I have nine. What can you tell His Lordship about what you taught your children about the choices that they will have with respect to marriage in the FLDS? I have told them that they have the right to choose. If someone has suggested to them they can definitely say no and I encourage them to. I encourage them if they do not want to be in a plural situation not to. Of your children I understand that -- well, let me ask. How many your children are over the age of 18? I have four. And of those how many are married? One. And that was a daughter? Yes. How old was she when she was married? She was 15. Can you explain the circumstances to His Lordship, please, within which that marriage occurred. At 15 years of age she was becoming very friendly and liked a certain boy. He was also a teen. And she was -- really wanted to get into a relationship. She spoke to me and her father and I strongly encouraged her that this was not a good idea. But she again petitioned us to follow

Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

8 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 through and made a request to the prophet which was accepted and she was married. How old was the fellow that she was married to? He was 19. Can you tell His Lordship what has happened to them subsequently? The first two years she stayed within the community and I was able to be a strong support to her. She left after that. She's no longer a member of FLDS and she lives in a nearby -- about an hour from us, and she is in a -- she has a good relationship with her husband. They're still married? They are. And is that a monogamous or a plural relationship? Monogamous. Do they have children? Yes, I do. How many children do they have? They have two. And how old is she now? She's 26. Do you maintain a relationship with your daughter? I do. How often do you see her? I probably see her about once a month. I text her on my phone and call her on the phone. I'm really -- I've been really -- encouraged her to continue her education and she is doing that now. And do you get a chance to go see her? Yes, I do. How often would you see her? I would see her probably once a month. Now, we've heard stories in this case and evidence in this case, which I've told you about, about girls being married -- young girls being married to much older men without consent. Without their consent, that is. If one of your daughters was faced with that demand by the prophet what would be your advice to her as a mother? My advice would be that she should not do it. I would not allow her to. And would there be consequences to that? No. That evidence raises the subject of the prophet's authority or decisions. Do you believe that the decisions made by the prophet must always be

Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

9 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A followed? No. Why not? Because I believe that, like Joseph Smith was corrected and condemned in his time at different times, that it could happen to anyone. Other than your daughter, have any of your other children or stepchildren left the FLDS community? Yes, I have a stepson. And do you have any kind of relationship with him? I do. Can you explain the circumstances within which he left the community. He was working about an hour and a half from our town and he was living in a place where he was influenced by his peers to drink alcohol and use drugs. And he was given many opportunities to -and assistance to try and stop those addictions but he wasn't able to, and in the end he decided to leave. How are -- the issue of taking drugs and alcohol, how was that treated within the FLDS in your community? Basically we -- our values are that we don't use drugs and alcohol. And are people permitted to do that within the community? No. With respect to the same stepson, has there -have you or your husband had contact with him since he's left? Yes, I have. And have you helped him in any way financially or otherwise? Yes, my husband has helped him when he has needed -- with finances, but he makes a lot of money. He works in -- he supports himself pretty well financially. Has he ever expressed an interest in returning? He has. He -- it was probably about a year ago. He said he wanted nothing more in his life than to be able to return to the faith and the community, and he moved closer to home. This is because he was working and living about six hours ago -- away before then. He moved close and he was visited often and counselled, but he couldn't give up drugs. And so he decided then to move about oh,

Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A

10 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) In chief by Mr. Wickett 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 three or four months ago and stay with my daughter. He's currently staying with your daughter? Yes. The daughter that has left? Yes. We've heard some evidence in this case about the doctrine of free agency and Mormonism. Have you heard that before? Oh, yes. What does it mean to you? What it means is that I will practice my faith and I respect -- I respect others to believe that that's not for them and I can appreciate that. And I can also -- it also means to me that I have the choice to do what I decide to do. You're aware that polygamy is illegal in Canada? Yes, I am. And if this criminal law is removed from the books, that is, if polygamy is decriminalized, do you think that that would have any impact upon your life and upon your community? Yes, I do. I believe that there's so many people in mainstream society that believe -- make so many assumptions about us that we are treated with bias and prejudice, and that affects my every-day life. If I wanted to go somewhere and get any sort of counselling with mainstream society then I feel like I would not be accepted that way. Also, ever since Joseph Smith's time we have had to pay so much money to try and stay out of jail, but it's hard to come up with the money that we need. And that financial relief would have some impact on your community? Oh, yes. For me personally. WICKETT: Thank you. Please answer any questions my learned friends may have for you. COURT: Thank you. Could I have a list of those cross-examining. GREATHEAD: My Lord, it's Leah Greathead. I will be cross-examining for the Attorney General of BC. COURT: Thank you. REIMER: Yes, My Lord, it's Keith Reimer for the Attorney General of Canada. I may also be cross-examining depending on what comes out of the AG BC's examination. COURT: Thank you, Mr. Reimer.

Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q

A

Q A MR. THE MS. THE MR.

THE

11 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MS. GAFFAR: My Lord, it's Deanne Gaffar for the West Coast Legal. I may also be cross-examining. THE COURT: And I missed who it was again, sorry. MS. GAFFAR: My Lord, can you see me now? Sorry. Only the Crown -THE COURT: Oh, yes. MS. GAFFAR: Can you see me now, My Lord? THE COURT: Ms. Gaffar. Yes, thank you. Okay. Ms. Greathead is first then. MS. GREATHEAD: Yes, My Lord. THE COURT: Thank you. Go ahead. MS. GREATHEAD: Just as a housekeeping matter, My Lord. There should be a sealed envelope in relation to Witness No. 2. I am not sure if it was given to Madam Clerk or what has happened with it. MR. WICKETT: It was given to the clerk. She has it. Do you wish that opened and be given to her? MS. GREATHEAD: There are a number of documents in there, My Lord, that I will be putting to the Witness No. 2. THE COURT: Okay. So we are to open the envelope? MS. GREATHEAD: Yeah. I mean, it can be opened now and I can -- I can have the clerk take the documents out as they're needed. We don't need them all right now. THE COURT: Okay, Ms. Greathead. Thank you. MS. GREATHEAD: Thank you, My Lord. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GREATHEAD: Q Now, Witness 2, as I mentioned my name is Leah Greathead and I'm going to be asking you a few questions on behalf of the Attorney General of British Columbia. Can you hear me? A Yes. Q Now, you've told us that you're a member of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints? A Yes. Q And the short name for that is the FLDS? A Yes. Q Now, you mentioned in your affidavit and I believe that you testified you were born in the rural district of Lister? A Yes. Q Is that correct? A Yes. Q Sorry. And that you now live with your husband in

12 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A MS. the community of Bountiful; is that correct? Yes, it is. And Lister is a small community about 16 kilometres or ten miles outside of Creston? It is. GREATHEAD: And if I could have -- there is a map in the package of documents that were opened up, and if this map could be given to the witness I would appreciate that. COURT: And sorry, give a copy to Mr. Wickett as well. Are there three copies of everything, Ms. Greathead? GREATHEAD: I believe there are four copies of everything there, My Lord. COURT: Thank you. We all have it, thank you. GREATHEAD: Now, Witness No. 2, you have a copy of the map? Yes, I do. And do you see the red circle on the map? Yes, I do. And you see that it is basically circling the intersection of 12th Street and Lyons Road and those roads around that area? Yes. And is that the area of Bountiful? Is that where Bountiful, British Columbia is? Yes, it is. I'm not really sure that I could -yes. Sorry, your answer is yes? I don't know if it's actually been registered as Bountiful. We call it Bountiful. But that's what I'm saying. I don't know if it's been registered as Bountiful. Okay. But that's the area that you call Bountiful? Yes. We've got the right -Yes. The right area -- sorry. I'll just make sure. We were kind of speaking over each other there. But we have the right area circled; is that correct? Yes. For Bountiful? M'mm-hmm. Now, Bountiful is a community where members of the FLDS reside? Yes.

THE MS. THE MS. Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

13 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A And there is no one living in Bountiful that is not a member of the FLDS or a member of Winston Blackmore's group; is that correct? I wouldn't know that for sure. I couldn't say for sure one way or the other. But as far as I know most of the people would be probably FLDS or a member of Winston's group. Do you know anyone who is not? I don't know, but that doesn't mean they couldn't be there. No, but you don't personally know any? No, I don't personally, no. Now, is it your understanding that this area was named Bountiful in the 1980s after Winston Blackmore became the bishop? Yes. And that's Bountiful, after Bountiful in the book of Mormon? I couldn't say that for any certainty. As far as I know it was similar to the Bountiful in Salt Lake City, the Bountiful area that Brigham Young named Bountiful. And would you describe Bountiful as a small community? Oh, yes. And do you know most of the people that live in Bountiful? Yes. Most of them, yes. Would you say that you know all of the people? No. And the -- everybody -- other people -- everybody generally knows everybody else in the community? I would say, yes, they generally -- they generally do. In the last while, as far as Winston's group is concerned, there's lots of people I don't know. Prior to the split between Mr. Blackmore's group and the group that you belong to would you have known everybody in the Bountiful community? I think so. So it's only after the split that you're unsure whether you know everyone? That's right. Because there may be people that have joined Mr. Blackmore's group that you don't know? That's right. And you don't know those people because there's no -- you don't have dealings with the people in

Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

14 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Mr. Blackmore's group; is that right? To a large extent, yes. But I do communicate with the ones that are my friends. And is that -- is that communication done with the blessing of your prophet? I don't know that. Have you been told to restrict your communications with the people in Mr. Blackmore's group? We have been told, yes, that we should stick with people that have the same values. And the people in Mr. Blackmore's group no longer share your values; is that correct? I couldn't say. I couldn't answer that for certain in all areas. But yes, there are some areas that we don't share the same values. And which areas are they? Well, I guess number one would be who the prophet is. And who is your prophet? At this time it's Warren Jeffs. And Mr. Blackmore's group does not see Mr. Jeffs as the prophet? Is that your understanding? That is my understanding, although I -- I don't know how each individual person feels. Now, we've heard and you've mentioned both the names Bountiful and Lister. Are they the same place? No, they're not. Lister encompasses quite an area. It's actually now been officially changed to Creston. Lister no longer actually exists. And so when -- do people use the term Lister and Bountiful interchangeably? Not necessarily. Like I said, it's quite an area, and the area that we live in is quite small compared to all of Lister. So Lister would include Bountiful? Yes. And are there members of the FLDS that also live in Canyon, BC? Yes, there are. And where is Canyon? Well, on your map there you can see Canyon Lister Road, and so you follow that Canyon Lister Road and it's probably about eight or nine kilometres from Bountiful. So you see that the map goes up to -- at the very top of it there's an intersection between 24th

Q

15 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A MS. THE THE THE Street and Canyon Lister Road? M'mm-hmm. And so would Canyon be -- if the map extended it would be further up the page at about 46th Street; is that correct? Yes. GREATHEAD: My Lord, I didn't have this map marked as an exhibit earlier but I'm wondering if I might have it marked as an exhibit now. COURT: Yes. Exhibit. CLERK: Exhibit 134, My Lord. COURT: 134, thank you. EXHIBIT 134: Map of the Bountiful, British Columbia area MS. GREATHEAD: Q And there's a house in Canyon known as the "big house"; is that correct? A Yes. Q And we heard evidence from Truman Oler, a former member of the FLDS, that he lived in the big house. Is that where -- do you know Truman? A Yes. Q And that's where he grew up? A Yes, for the most part, yes. Q Now, in addition to Bountiful and Canyon there are other neighbouring communities where members of the FLDS may reside. Neighbouring communities in British Columbia; is that correct? A Yes. Q And would that include Arrow Creek? A Yes. Q And where is Arrow Creek? A Arrow Creek is probably another 8 kilometres from Canyon, 46th Street Canyon. Q And are there any members in Cranbrook, members of the FLDS in Cranbrook? A I know at times there have been and I think there actually is right now, but as far as where people are moving I'm not positive about that. Q But at times there have been? A Yes, there has. Q And women of the FLDS faith may have given birth to their children in Cranbrook; is that accurate? A Yes. Q And what about Creston? Are there times when

16 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 members of the FLDS community lived in Creston as well? Not really, to my recollection. But there -- I'm sure there could have been. I might not have known that. All right. But Creston would be a place where women of the FLDS faith gave birth to their children? Yes. And what about Kitchener, British Columbia? Yes. Is that a place where members of the FLDS have resided? Yes. And where is Kitchener? It's 15 minutes out of Creston. In which direction? South. No, sorry, north. And you've mentioned Lister, so Lister also would be a name that members of the FLDS community might use to describe where they're from? Yes. What about Yahk, British Columbia, is that also a place where the members of the FLDS have resided? Yes. So we've talked about Arrow Creek, Cranbrook, Creston, Kitchener, Lister and Yahk. Is there any other nearby or not so nearby communities in British Columbia where people from the FLDS live? I can't think of any other. And on that list again, Arrow Creek, Cranbrook, Creston, Kitchener, Lister and Yahk, are there any other communities where women from the FLDS may have had their children? We've had children -- we've had -- to my knowledge people go to Calgary or we might have had some go to Vancouver to deliver a baby. Is that when there's been special circumstances? Yes. Now, I understand that there are also members of the FLDS either living in or have lived in Idaho. Do you understand that to be true as well? I -- in the past, yes. And that would have included Bonners Ferry, Idaho? I couldn't say exactly where they lived. Do you know -- you don't know whether they lived in Bonners Ferry?

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q

17 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A I don't know that, no. You know they lived in Idaho, you just don't know the names of the places? No, I don't know. Sorry, to be clear you do know that they lived in Idaho at one point -Yes. -- is that right? Yes. Now -- and we've heard mention in these court proceedings already about Short Creek. Do you know the place called Short Creek? I do. And Short Creek is made up of Hildale Utah, and Colorado City, Arizona; is that right? Yes. And Hildale, Utah and Colorado City, Arizona is an FLDS community; is that accurate? I -- I could not comment on that city in terms of what their beliefs are. I think -- I know there are some, but I wouldn't be able to comment further than that. Have you been to Short Creek? I have. And you went to -- did you go for the April conference? Is that why you went to Short Creek? I didn't. I didn't go to April conference. You've never been to the April conference in Short Creek? Yes, I have. But I guess I meant in the last time I was there. Oh, okay. But you have been to the April conference in Short Creek? Yes, I have. And the April conference is something that you partake in as a member of the FLDS church? Yes. And you were doing that with other FLDS members down in Short Creek? Yes. And when you were there you understood that members of the FLDS lived in Short Creek? Yes, I was aware that some of them did. Now, how many times have you been to Short Creek? I would not be able to give you an exact number, but I could guess maybe eight or nine times in my lifetime.

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

18 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q THE MR. And you -- you mentioned the last time you went was not for the April conference. Why did you go on your last visit to Short Creek? I was sharing some education. Sharing some education. What do you mean by that? Well, I have friends down there with common interests and we were doing some workshops together. And your friends with common interests are members of the FLDS church? Yes. And the common interests you had to -- you were sharing had to do with your religion? With my -- with my career. With your career? Yes. As a midwife? COURT: Well-WICKETT: My Lord, I very purposefully stayed away from asking this and I'm going to stay away from asking it with respect to the other anonymous witnesses because job titles and that sort of thing are matters that potentially trench into the anonymity order. I don't know where my friend is going with the particular form of questions but I would submit, My Lord, that the cross-examination ought to stay away from attempting to identify particular careers. COURT: Ms. Greathead? GREATHEAD: Well, My Lord, the witness does at paragraph 5 of her affidavit indicate that she has completed the elderly care program, the RN program and the registered midwifery program, and in my submission she has by what she has put forward in her affidavit opened the door to questions about midwifery. WICKETT: She certainly opened the door to questions about her training, no question about that. But if my friend is going to move beyond that into what function -- what job she serves within the community, to that I object. COURT: And I'll sustain that objection. The concern being that while there was some reference to the educational background of the witness further inquiries as to her occupation today may tend to identify her contrary to the spirit of the order I've made.

THE MS.

MR.

THE

19 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MS. GREATHEAD: Q Now, Witness No. 2, have you ever been to Mesquite, Nevada? A No. Q Now, back to some questions about Bountiful. I understand that Bountiful was established in the 1940s by a handful of families from Alberta. Is that your understanding as well? A Yes, it is my understanding. The exact dates I was never really aware of. 40s. Q And who do you understand the founding families to include? A I don't know if I want to mention names. Q Well, maybe I'll put the names to you. Would Harold Blackmore's family be one of the founding families? A Yes. Q And Ray Blackmore? A Yes. Q And Dalmon Oler? A Yes. Q And were there any others that you know of? A No. Q Now, the population of Bountiful today -- and when I talk about Bountiful I'm talking both about those who see their prophet as Mr. Warren Jeffs and the Winston Blackmore group. Do you agree that the population of Bountiful is about 1,000 people? A Yes. Q And that the community has been split essentially in half, so about 500 of those people follow -Warren Jeffs and 500 of those people follow Winston Blackmore? A That's probably pretty accurate. Q And within your group how many children would you say there are? A I would not be able to make any speculation on that. I'm sorry. Q Well, over half of the 500 people? A A child being of what age? Q 18 and under? A Probably, roughly. Q So somewhere over half? A Yes. Q Would it be two-thirds? A Maybe not quite that many, but that's a reasonable

20 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q guess. Now, I'm going to put some what I understand to be popular surnames from the Bountiful community to you, and I just want you to tell me whether you agree that the name I'm giving you is a popular surname in the community. Blackmore? Am I required to give names? No, I'm just asking you to tell me whether the name that I've come to learn to be a popular surname -Yes. -- in the Bountiful community whether or not it is indeed one that you recognize as a Bountiful name. Yes, I do recognize that. With all due respect I do not want to reveal anyone's identity. No, I'm not asking to you reveal anybody's identity. I'm just asking you to confirm whether this is a popular surname within the Bountiful community. So Blackmore? Yes. Cooke, and that's C-o-o-k-e? No. Fischer, F-i-s-c-h-e-r? No. Do you know anyone by the name of Fischer in the community? I don't. But there may have been someone as a maiden name Fischer, but I don't know. What about Cooke? Do you know anybody in the community with the name Cooke? I know of one. And so I guess here what -- I'm going to revise my question and just ask if you know of anyone in the community with the name that I present to you. Oh, okay. So Johnson? Yes. Keate, and that's K-e-a-t-e? No. Oler? Yes. Palmer? Yes. Quinton? Yes. Steed, which is S-t-e-e-d? Yes.

A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

21 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q Chatwin, C-h-a-t-w-i-n? A Yes. Q Jessop? A Yes. Q Lane? A Yes. Q Emack. A Actually -THE COURT: Sorry, give me that name again. MS. GREATHEAD: Q Emack? A Emack, yes. But I'm just trying to think of Lane again because I don't think so. I don't think on Lane. Q Was there ever a person named Lane in the community? A There may have been. As far as FLDS go I don't know. Q So in these proceedings a woman named Ruth Lane provided a video deposition. Did you watch Ms. Lane's deposition, or video affidavit? A A very small piece of it. Q And do you know Ms. Lane? A I know of her, yes. Q And she was a member of the FLDS community, wasn't she? A Yes. Q And then I was on the name Emack. That's E-m-a-c-k. And I believe you said that you do know people in the community with that last name? A Yes. Q Roundy. R-o-u-n-d-y? A Are you asking have they ever been a member? Yes. Q Yes. A Yes. Q And Barlow? A Yes. Q B-a-r-l-o -- sorry, I'll spell it for the record. B-a-r-l-o-w? A Yes. Q And now, there are -- I'm going to put to you some other names and ask you whether you recognize these names as connected with the FLDS. They may not be names of people in the Bountiful community, but what I'm wondering is whether you know these names as part of the larger FLDS community including the people of Short Creek and FLDS

22 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 members in the United States. That was rather longwinded. Do you understand what I'm going to be asking you? So you're asking me if I have ever known of them to be at one time FLDS members? Oh, I'm -- well, maybe I'll ask it more directly. Do you know the name Jeffs as associated with the FLDS? Yes. And Holm, H-o-l-m? Yes. And Allred, A-l-l-r-e-d? Yes. Now, you have lived all your life in the general Creston/Lister area; is that right? Yes. And you've worked in the Creston area? Yes. And you -- do you know of anyone -- any of these surnames that we have gone through, both the long list and the shorter list, whether there's anyone who lives in the Creston area with these surnames who was not -- who is not or was not at one time a member of the Bountiful community? In the greater area of Creston? I -Yes? WICKETT: My Lord, I understand what the purpose of the question is, but I don't know how the witness could possibly answer that question. COURT: Well, can you answer the question? WITNESS: I don't see how I could either. GREATHEAD: Well, do you know of anyone who lives in the greater Creston area that has one of those surnames that is or was -- that is not presently or was not at one time a member of the FLDS? As I said, because -- no, I don't, but there are many surnames within the area so I have no idea. I'm going to ask you a few questions about what I understand to be distinctive given names for boys in the FLDS community, and I would like you to tell me whether you agree that the name I put -whether or not you agree the name I put forward is a distinctive name given to boys, either as a first name or a middle name, within the FLDS community. And I'm going to -- I may not pronounce a name correctly, and please correct me

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q MR. THE THE MS. Q

A Q

23 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 if I don't. And I will spell it in case my pronunciation is off. A Excuse me -THE COURT: Just a second, Ms. Greathead. THE WITNESS: As far as the question is concerned, distinctive according to who? MS. GREATHEAD: Q Well, according to you whether you have heard this name used within your community. A As a boy's first name? Q Or a second name. A Okay. Q The first name is Moroni. M-o-r-o-n-i. A Sure. Yes, it sounds distinctive. Q Nephi, N-e-p-h-i? A Yes. Q Ephrain, E-p-h-r-a-i-n? A No. Q Hyrum, H-y-r-u-m? A Yes. Q Lorin, L-o-r-i-n? A No. Q Mordecii, M-o-r-d-e-c-i-i? A No. Q Leroy, L-e-r-o-y? A No. Q Rulon, R-u-l-o-n? A No. Q So do you know -- you've not heard of boys named Leroy in your community? A I have heard of boys named, but I didn't -- that wasn't the question. Q Okay. So let me go back then and re-ask the question. I'm sorry. I haven't been clear. Can you tell me whether these are names that -- that you hear in your community selected for a boy, either a first name or a last name -sorry, a first name or a middle name. And I'm going to go back to Ephrain. Is that a name that you've heard used for a boy in your community? A Yes. Q And Hyrum? A I have heard of one, yes. Q And Lorin, L-o-r-i-n? A One as well. Q Mordecii, M-o-r-d-e-c-i-i? A Yes, one.

24 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Leroy? One. Rulon? Yes, one. Heber, H-e-b-e-r? Yes. And LeRon, L-e-R-o-n? I have heard of the name but it's not particularly to our community. So, no. Now, I am going to turn now and ask you a few questions about your religion. You've indicated that you have a prophet and that the current prophet is Warren Jeffs? Yes. And you as -- you believe that your prophet speaks directly to God; is that correct? We believe that he can receive inspiration from God. I believe. And he gets this inspiration directly from God? That's what I said. He receives inspiration from God. And when you were growing up was your prophet Leroy Johnson? Yes. And you called him Uncle Roy? Yes. And after Uncle Roy died the prophet became Rulon Jeffs? Yes. And do you remember when that was? I think it was around '83, 1983, but I'm not positive. And he, like Uncle Roy, was referred to as Uncle Rulon? No. What did you call him? Uncle Roy? No, your prophet Rulon Jeffs. Uncle Rulon, yes. And then after Uncle Rulon the prophet became Warren Jeffs? Yes. Your current prophet? Yes. Now, you're taught in your religion, aren't you, to prepare for the end of the world? All -- yes, FLDS members are. All LDS members

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

25 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q are. And you're taught that the earth will be destroyed and only the good and righteous people will be saved; is that correct? The earth will be -- at some point destruction will happen and -- yes, I could say that. And to be considered good and righteous you have to prove yourself good and righteous; is that accurate? I would say not necessarily. You have to improve intent too, I suppose. Improve intent to what, sorry? Well, I -- I believe that -- that there's -- no one is perfect. But you strive to be good and righteous? Yes. And that means that at times you have to sacrifice? Yes, we do have to make some personal sacrifices. I think everyone does. And what do you say is involved in striving to be good and righteous? Trying to live in the present. Trying to forgive the past and, like I said, live in the present. And is there anything else involved in being good and righteous? Well, I certainly -- I would expect that I would want to treat others like I want to be treated. And what about the teachings that you received as a child growing up in an FLDS community. What were you taught about striving to be good and righteous? That very same thing. Treat everyone with respect and the way that you want to be treated. What were you taught about your prophet? Basically what I have said, that we believe that he is our leader and that he can receive inspiration, and -- that's it. And you were taught because he does receive inspiration from God that you were to take direction from him; isn't that right? We -- he does direct areas in our life, yes. And you're supposed to follow those directions? If we deem them right for us. And you were taught that following his directions was important? I wouldn't say that, not necessarily.

A Q A Q A Q A Q A

26 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q Have you ever not followed one of the directions of your prophet? A Yes. Q And did your prophet find out? A I don't think so, but I don't know. Q What was the direction that you didn't follow? A Well, we -- like I said, all of my life I've been taught to treat people with kindness and respect and I get mad sometimes and don't do that. Q So the prophet tells you to treat people with kindness and respect and you've had momentary lapses with respect to that, and you consider that not following the direction of your prophet? A Well, you asked -- that was what you asked, and yes, I mean, because you said, you know, has he ever given a directive in terms of, you know, what I'm supposed to do that I wasn't able to follow through with. Q And you said that you followed the directions of your prophet if you deem them right for yourselves; is that correct? A Yes. Q So what part of that example you just gave us, what part of the profit's direction did you deem not right for yourself? A Well, I don't really believe it wasn't right for myself but I believe that we are all on a path of -- we're all on a journey of living principles that will make us happy. And I believe that learning how to control my anger is probably going to be to my benefit in the long run and so I -even though, I mean, I'm not really saying that it wasn't right for me to not -- to not get angry. I say I'm on a path of learning. MS. GREATHEAD: My Lord, I notice the time. Would this be a good time for the morning break? THE COURT: Yes, thank you. Take a 15-minute break. THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned for the morning recess. (WITNESS STOOD DOWN) (MORNING RECESS) THE CLERK: Order in court. WITNESS No. 2, a witness for the FLDS, recalled.

27 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 THE COURT: Thank you, Ms. Greathead. MS. GREATHEAD: Thank you, My Lord. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GREATHEAD: (Continued) Q Witness 2, before the break we were talking about your prophet, and is it not true that from time to time your prophet would give certain directives aimed at people specifically, for example, who they should be placed in marriage with or maybe that they should attend more prayer meetings or repent, something to that effect? A Can I get you to -- I'll maybe just see if I'm understanding the question. Does he give a directive in a certain part of someone's life? Q Yeah, would he give directives aimed at you in particular or individuals in particular? A Yes, he could. Q And have you ever failed to follow a directive of your prophet aimed at you specifically? A No, I have -- no, I haven't. Q And do you know anyone who is still a member of the FLDS who has ever failed to follow a directive of the prophet aimed specifically at that person? A Yes. Sorry, again the question. Do I know anyone that? Q Is still a member of the FLDS church that has failed to follow a directive aimed specifically -a directive from the prophet aimed specifically at that person. A Yes, I do. Q And what directive was it that they failed to follow? A It was a suggestion of who he thought that they should be placed with in marriage. Q Any others other than that one person? A I know of at least two. Q And what directives were those two people faced with? A The same. Q And that is not marrying who the prophet said they should marry? A That's right. Q And when did that occur? A It was probably -- it would have been -- one that would have been about four years ago and the other one probably a dozen years ago.

28 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q And so the one four years ago, the prophet was Warren Jeffs? M'mm-hmm. And a dozen years ago, was that -- who was the prophet then? I think it probably would have been Rulon Jeffs. And did the prophet with these women come up with someone else that they should be placed in marriage with? Yes. And they followed that directive? Yes. As far as I know. I couldn't speak for them. They did get married? Oh, yes. Now, you have told us that to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom you must live plural marriage; is that right? Yes. And is it accurate to say that for a man, for a man to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom of heaven he must have at least three wives? That has never been a teaching that I'm aware of. He just have to have more than one? Yes. And the only way for a woman to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom is through her husband; is that correct? No. Well, I misunderstood the question. That would be correct. That is correct? Yes. And I take it that members of the FLDS church aspire to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom of heaven? I can't -- I can't speak for anyone else other than my immediate surroundings, but I think that most people would. And it is a teaching of the church, isn't it, that you should as a good and righteous member of the FLDS aspire to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom of heaven? I -- I can't really answer -- I can't really think I can answer that precisely as far as -- like I said before, I would -- I would imagine that most people do want to.

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A

29 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q And most people, you're talking most people within your faith, within the FLDS? Yes. Well, it is true, isn't it, that the -- that heaven and the highest level of the celestial kingdom of heaven in particular is portrayed as a good place, a positive place to be? Oh, yes. And your leaders do talk about what you have to do in order to earn a spot or to get to this heaven? Yes. And now, you've talked about the prophet. Do you also have a bishop? Each -- yes, we do. And you were going to begin -- you started off "each" and then you didn't finish your thought. Each? Each area it has been the -- as far as I know, as far as the setting up in Joseph Smith's time, each area would have someone that they would look to for a leader. And so prior to the split the bishop in the Bountiful area was Winston Blackmore? Yes. And now for you it's James Oler? I'm -- I don't really want to disclose anyone's identity. I'm not asking you to disclose. I'm just asking you if Mr. Oler is your bishop? I guess for fear of prosecution that might be a worry for him or anyone else I don't want to pin him to anything. GREATHEAD: My Lord, I submit that the witness should be directed to answer this question. COURT: Mr. Wickett? WICKETT: I don't disagree. The question is not objectionable, My Lord. COURT: Right. So you're not identifying him as committing any particular crime or anything. You're simply identifying his position to your knowledge in the church today. Go ahead. WITNESS: Yes, then. GREATHEAD: Sorry, so Mr. James or Jim Oler is the current bishop of your group? Yes. And we've heard this term "priesthood head." Can

A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A MS. THE MR. THE

THE MS. Q A Q

30 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q you explain what a priesthood head is. For example, my husband is considered my priesthood head because he is the head of the household. So it's the man at the head of the household? Yes. And as a child then your priesthood head would be your father? Yes. And I take it that the other women in your community are the same as you in the sense that -the other married women in any event, are the same as you in that their priesthood head would be their husbands; is that right? Yes. And what's the significance -- what are you taught as part of your religion about the priesthood head? I've been taught that priesthood to mean it -- to mean someone of a godly nature, so taught that as far as my father or my husband, you know, growing up my father now my husband is concerned, that as long as he is acting in a Christ-like way then I would want to -- I'm trying to think of the correct word here. I would also want to support him in his efforts. So when you say that you would also want to support him in his efforts, I take it that's his efforts to act in a Christ-like way? Yes. And that would include then following the direction of your husband? As far as my relationship with my husband, like I said, if -- we are working together as parents in a family to raise our children and we have the same values and goals to raise them also in a Christ-like manner. And some of those values and goals includes complying with the wishes of God? As we believe them. Yes. And complying with the wishes of those who speak for God, like your prophet? As we see them -- as we would believe them right for us. And you have been taught to believe that your prophet will act in your best interests? Oh, yes, we have been taught to believe that he

A Q A

Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A

31 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A will act in our best interests. And that you should follow his directions; isn't that right? As I said, as far as we feel them right for me. As I feel it right for me. Now, from a young child isn't it true that you were taught about the value of the obedience? Obedience is part of a parenting goal that we were -- we were taught natural consequences, and that's what I try to teach my own children. If the light is red then you stop. So I'm not sure that I had an answer to my question. As you were growing up isn't it true that you were taught the importance of obedience? Of obedience as far as it was reasonable, yes. And it was seen as reasonable in your religion for children to be obedient to their father? Yes. And wives to their husband? Wives obedient to their husband? I wouldn't necessarily say wives obedient to their husbands. In my own -That wasn't a teaching? I'm sorry. I didn't mean to interrupt. That wasn't a teaching? That wasn't part of the religious training that you received as a child that -Not me personally. For wives to be obedient to their husband? No, no. Now, I might not pronounce this correctly so I'll spell it as well, but I will try my best at the pronunciation, and what I'm wondering what is the Melchizedek priesthood, which is M-e-l-c-h-i-z-e-d-e-k. The Melchizedek priesthood? Yes. As far as I understand it, as a man becomes of age and expresses an interest in the faith and maintaining the values of our faith then he will be given, the same as the LDS Mormon church, the right to hold the Melchizedek priesthood. And that gives him the power to give blessings and annointings, to assist with -- to assist with the suffering in illness and that sort of thing. Is it only open to boys? Yes. Now, what does "to exult" mean?

Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

A Q A

Q A Q

32 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q I am not really sure if I could give a good explanation for that. You've heard the term? I'm just trying -- I haven't really heard it taken out of context. Can you provide some context for us, please. Well, I suppose the way I've heard it is if you -I guess if you are exulted that would mean that you were -- received a promotion. And when it's used in the context of a man being able to exult his wife, what does that mean? So that they would be able to live together as man and wife for all eternity. So in the afterlife as well? Yes. So a woman counting on getting into the highest level of the celestial kingdom must be exulted by her husband; is that a fair statement? Yeah. Yes. And it's -- you would agree with me, wouldn't you, that it is difficult to be righteous all of the time? Oh, yes. And that both men and women would have difficulty with it? Yes. And that there are instances when a man has -proves himself no longer righteous and he's no longer able to exult his wife? That happens, doesn't it? Yes. And in these instances you're aware, aren't you, that the prophet must reassign the wives to another man so that they have an opportunity to go to heaven; is that correct? If they so choose. And if they don't choose they can't go to heaven; isn't that right? No. So if they do not have a man that they have been -- if there's no longer a man that can exult them, there's no longer a man that they're sealed to in life and all eternity, isn't it correct that there's no possibility for them to go to heaven? No, that's not correct. How do they get to heaven? There are many degrees in the heavens.

A Q

A Q A Q

A Q A

33 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q Oh. That's what we believe anyways. Sorry. So that to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom though they must -- they must choose to be reassigned to another man; isn't that true? Yes. But like I said, as was set up by Joseph Smith, there are different degrees in the heavens. The highest level is the best though; right? Well, it depends on who you are. Now, as you were growing up you were taught as a girl not to interact with the boys; isn't that right? No, we had -- I played sports with them. Like, as interact in terms of having a boyfriend and sexual interaction, yes. So no sexual interaction. But isn't it true that you were taught as a young girl to treat the boys as if they were snakes? The statement has come up to mean that if you were to see a snake along the road you're not going to go and bother it, you're going to walk around it. You're taught to walk around the boys? Not to engage in any close contact. So you were never to be alone in a room with a boy? I was not taught that, what you said, never to be alone in a room with a boy. It was okay to be alone in a room with a boy? It can happen. It would definitely depend on the circumstances. If I was walking in the hall at school as a girl and there was -- or I mean everything is in context. And so the context of you alone in a room with a boy, was that something you were taught not to do? No. I was -You were taught -Sorry. I was never told you should never be alone in a room with a boy. Were you taught that that was fine, it was okay that you could be alone in a room with a boy? I wasn't really taught anything about that particular situation. What about talking with boys on your own? Were you -- were you allowed to talk to a boy? Yes, I was. On your own, just the two of you?

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

34 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q I did as a young girl. I don't know -- I can't speak for anyone else. Sorry, so you may have talked to the boys but they might not have talked back to you. Is that what you're saying there? Well, in everyday life you're going to be respectful to someone. If you see them you're going to say hi. And that's the kind of communication when you said you could talk with boys, the everyday life, kind of hi comment? That was my experience. Now, the people in your group believe that -- I'm moving to new area now, about dress. The people in your community believe that it's important to cover your body; is that correct? Yes. And you wear clothes that are different from the people outside of your community? Yes. You are required to wear long underwear? It has been a suggestion to us. Not everyone does. And the men wear shirts and pants that cover their body? Yes. And the women don't wear pants; is that right? For the most part, no. They wear long dresses with long sleeves? Yes. And have you ever been swimming in the creek? Yes. Yes, I have. And some of your brothers and sisters swam in the creek as well? Yes. And when you same in the creek were you required to swim with all of your clothes on? We do swim with our clothes on, yes. Now, I want to talk a little -- ask you a few questions about marriage in particular. I take it that marriage has a very sacred and special place in your religion? Yes. Is that right? Yes. And as -- part of your teachings you were taught to want to marry; is that fair?

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

35 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q I don't -- I don't think that -- I wasn't really taught anything particularly. I think it was the assumption that most people would marry. And, in fact, it was something that you wanted, wasn't it? Yes. And part of your teachings were that it was important to have as many righteous children as possible? No. Children, though, do have an important place in your religion? Very much so. And you tend to have large families? Yes. But it wasn't part of your religious teachings that it was important to have many children? No. As far as how many children the teachings that we've been given is have children -- the amount of children that you can take care of. And now, you've talked a little bit about placement marriage in that the -- essentially the prophet has a revelation from God about who you should be placed in marriage with; isn't that correct? I think that he can definitely be inspired and he will make that suggestion to you. And does that typically run by the prophet telling your father who you should be placed in marriage with and then your father passing that information on to you? No, that would -- it would be in a meeting with you and your parents. So when you were placed in marriage you heard directly from the prophet? No, because we lived quite a ways away. So in your case the prophet told your father and your father -Yes. -- told you? Yes. And as a child did you daydream about who the prophet might place you with? Yes. Did you discuss possible placements with your girlfriends? Some -- I know that some of the my girlfriends

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

36 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 definitely did that. I particularly -- I don't remember doing that, no. You looked forward to getting married? Yes. And you've told us that you were married at 16; is that right? Yes. And I take it that you never viewed your marriage at 16 as a form of child abuse? No. Now, this court has heard about cases where sister wives are also biological sisters. Are you and your sister wife biological sisters? Yes. Now, if God tells the prophet that a particular girl is to marry a particular boy and the prophet tells the girl and boy that that is what God wants, what should they do? I've never heard of a case where he said, God wants you to do this, so I don't know. Isn't he getting his inspiration from God? Yes, he can. But inspiration isn't a commandment or he has -- he to my knowledge has not said this is the person that you must marry, or try to force anyone to. So -- but if the prophet does get an inspiration from God? Yes. -- as to where -- and I have a complete question. So if the prophet does get an inspiration from God as to where to place a woman in marriage and that woman says no to the placement isn't she saying no to God? No, she isn't, because it has not come as this is the person that you must marry. It's brought to her as a suggestion. Yeah. That would be a suggestion from God? No. So I'm a bit confused. The prophet is not taking inspiration from God? Because a girl or woman that wanted to be married, because she presents herself to the prophet she is speaking with a man, not God. But you do believe that your prophet communicates with God; right? I said I believe that he can be inspired. Is that not a form of communication?

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A

Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q

37 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q It could -- I suppose it could be considered by some. I'm not sure the exact definition. So one of the affiants in these proceedings -- you filed an anonymous affidavit and you realize that there are other people that have also filed anonymous affidavits in these proceedings; is that right? Yes. Now, I'm just going to read to you part of what Witness No. 4 has said, and it's in paragraph 5 and I will read it. It's just a short part. I don't think that you need to have the affidavit in front of you. But it says: When we come to earth our channel with the heavens and heavenly father is our prophet. He is the one who talks with the heavenly father and receives revelation concerning who we belong to according to the covenants. A Q So do you agree with that statement? I don't discredit her experience, but as far as my experience I -- so you said -- the question was again, do I disagree with that? She says that the prophet, he is the one who talks with the heavenly father and seeks revelation. Do you agree with that statement that your prophet talks with the heavenly father? No. And this is a witness, anonymous Witness No. 3. She states at paragraph 9, "I believe that God speaks to our prophet." Do you agree with that statement? I believe that our prophet can be inspired and he would speak -- every human on earth -- I believe can through prayer speak to their higher power. He goes on to say "I believe" -- this is Witness No. 3. So the -- I'll read the whole clause: I believe that God speaks to our prophet. Therefore I believe that it is my loving heavenly father who determines who will be the right person for me to marry. A Q Do you agree with that statement? Yes. Now, Witness No. 2, you told us your daughter

A Q

A Q

A Q

38 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q married at 15; is that correct? That is correct. And I believe, and correct me if I'm wrong here, but you didn't approve of the marriage at that age, at the age of 15; is that right? I strongly encouraged her not to marry at 15. Did you provide written consent for the marriage? No. So you strongly encouraged her not to marry at 15. Did you take any steps to talk to your prophet about that? About her 15-year-old marriage? No, I didn't. I spoke to her father. Did you speak to your bishop about your concerns with her marrying at 15? No, but my husband did. Did you speak to any outside authorities, like the Ministry of Children and Family Development or the police or any outside authorities about your concerns with your daughter marrying at 15? No, I'm not really sure why that would -- why I would need to. And you mentioned your husband. You didn't speak with your bishop about your daughter marrying at 15 but your husband did, and did he talk to you about that? Your husband? Yes. And what was it that your husband spoke to the bishop about? He -- he told me that he voiced to Winston that he didn't feel good about Melanie -- about my daughter getting married and -- and there was a discussion there and it was ultimately left to her to decide. My daughter. So notwithstanding the concerns of your husband that he expressed to the bishop your daughter ultimately got married at 15? Yes. Now, we've heard in the context of marriage in your religion the term being sealed for life and all eternity. Can you explain for the court what it means to be sealed. It basically means to be married, as far as I understand it. And the part about life and all eternity, what does that mean? It means while you live and then after you live. So while you live on this earth and then in the

A Q

A Q A

Q A Q

A Q A Q

39 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q afterlife? Yes. And who is it that does the sealing? It would usually be the prophet. And you say "usually." Can the prophet request that someone else do the sealing? As far as I recollect in the history I think that has happened before, yes. And in the marriage ceremony I've heard that there is a special kind of handgrip that is -- that is used. Are you familiar with that handgrip that's used in a celestial marriage ceremony? Yes. How does it work? As far as I remember, because it's been a few years, you hold hands. So does the prophet hold the hand of the man and the woman who are being sealed? That was not -- to my knowledge, no. Who holds hands then? The two that are getting married. And what does the prophet do? Read the ceremony. Have you heard the term the "patriarchal grip"? I think I have. And is it part -- it's part of the wedding ceremony, isn't it? I think that is what they call the holding of hands. If you're the second wife, as you were, is the first wife involved in the marriage ceremony as well? In my situation she wasn't, but I think in some that they are. Is she part of the handgrip part of the ceremony if she is involved in the ceremony, the first wife? I don't -- I couldn't be certain of that, no. Now, you mentioned that usually it's the prophet who presides over the wedding ceremony and sometimes the prophet may direct that someone else conduct the ceremony. So would that someone else be the bishop? Because I can't remember specifics on it. I -- I suppose it could be. But I -- I've never personally -- witnessed that first-hand. Have you been to weddings within your community

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q

40 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 besides your own? Yes. And these were celestial marriage ceremonies conducted within your faith? A Yes. Q And on your wedding ceremony did your mother attend? A Yes. Q And your father? A Yes. Q Did he attend? A Yes. Q And without giving me names were there others -any of your siblings that attended your marriage ceremony? A Yes. Q Now, for your -- we've talked a bit about your 15-year-old, your daughter who at 15 got married. Did you attend her wedding ceremony? A Yes, I did. Q And so did you -- you ultimately consent to your daughter's marriage? A Yes, I did. Q And your husband consented as well? A Yes. Q And why did you consent? A Because her partner was 19 years of age. She was not -- it was a monogamous relationship and I felt that I could be close by to her to help her in the event that she had children, which I was able to do. And that's why. Q So would you have not granted your consent if she was entering into a plural marriage situation at 15? A I would have not allowed it. Q I take it though that all those that aspire to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom, so the people that are living monogamously in your community, if they aspire to get to the highest level of the celestial kingdom then they are seeking additional -- seeking to enter into plural marriage. Would that be a fair statement? A I think that some of them are. And I don't know, I couldn't -- I couldn't speak for all of them. Q Who performed your marriage ceremony? MR. WICKETT: That is a question to which I must object, My Lord, for the obvious reason. A Q

41 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MS. GREATHEAD: Fine, My Lord. I will move on. THE COURT: Thank you. MS. GREATHEAD: Q Now, Witness No. 2, I would like to ask you a few questions about communicating with your prophet. You told us your prophet is Warren Jeffs, and Mr. Jeffs never lived in Bountiful, did he? A No. Q He had a residence in the United States, in particular in Short Creek; is that your understanding? A Yes. Q And it was the same for Uncle Rulon, wasn't it, that he lived in the United States, didn't he? A Yes. Q And Uncle Roy as well. He lived in the United States? A Yes. Q And I understand that there was a number of ways that your community in Bountiful would communicate with this prophet that lived in the United States. And would one of these ways be sermons from the prophet would be broadcast in church in Bountiful; is that true? A Yes, there was a way to connect up to the meeting in the States. Q And you would hear the sermon as you attended church in Bountiful? A Yes. Q And that at -- that your prophet at times had made tape recordings of his teachings. Did you ever listen to the any of the tapes prepared by your prophet? A Yes. Q And more recently the prophet has used iPod broadcasts. Are you aware of that? A No. Q And you would also write letters to your prophet; isn't that right? A I think some people did. Q Did you ever write a letter to your prophet? A No. Q What about -- did you know of your -- of your children writing to the prophet? A I -- let me -- yes, my children have. Q Your children have written the prophet. And wasn't there a time when you were required to

42 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q write the prophet once a month? Not to my knowledge. Now, the prophet also sometimes came to Bountiful; isn't that right? Yes. And when he came to Bountiful, and this would be whether it was Uncle Roy, Uncle Rulon or Uncle Warren, they would often be involved in Canadian wedding ceremonies? Yes. And there was also -- you mentioned already that you have been to Short Creek. So there was travel between the people in the Bountiful community and the FLDS community in the United States? That's correct, isn't it? Yes. And the leaders, the religious leaders, your bishop would sometimes have meetings with the prophet both in Canada and the United States? Sorry, can you say that question again. My leaders would have what again? The bishop in your community would have meeting with the prophet? Yes. Either in Canada or the United States? Yes. And you could ask to speak to your prophet by telephone? I guess I never -- the occasion never arose so I don't know. You've heard of others speaking to the prophet from British Columbia over the telephone? Maybe -- maybe once or twice. I can't remember for sure. Now, is it also true that -- that your prophet has written -- various prophets have written their teachings down, written them down in writing? Yes. And you've had access to those written works? Yes, we do. And one of those works is the book In Light and Truth? Yes, it is. And that your prophet -- that record -- keeping records of who married who and what was happening with respect to your group is important to the FLDS people?

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

43 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A MS. THE MS. THE MR. Yes. And that the prophet would often write down his thoughts? In a book or write down his thoughts on paper? Yeah. Just on paper. I -- not really aware of that. GREATHEAD: Now, I'm moving on to another subject area. COURT: How much longer are you going to be? GREATHEAD: I do -- I think that I am going to be probably another half-hour, My Lord. COURT: Okay. We'll take the luncheon adjournment. JONES: My Lord, perhaps -- sorry, if I might just interject. There was -- during the answers we've been careful to avoid names but there was a slipup on the part of the witness and the name was mentioned and I just wanted to invite Mr. Wickett, if he has a concern over that, that now might be the time to ask for a publication ban. COURT: Well -WICKETT: No, I'm not asking for a publication ban. COURT: Thank you. WICKETT: What is said is said. COURT: Thank you. We'll take the adjournment. Thank you. CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until -COURT: Witness, you're under cross-examination so please don't discuss your evidence with anyone. Thank you. WITNESS: Okay. CLERK: Order in court. (WITNESS STOOD DOWN) (NOON RECESS) THE CLERK: Order in court. WITNESS NO. 2, a witness for the FLDS, recalled. THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Greathead.

THE MR. THE MR. THE THE THE THE THE

CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GREATHEAD: (Continued) Q Witness No. 2, you've told that you consented to your 15-year-old daughter marrying monogamously but that you would not have consented to a plural

44 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 marriage. So I'm wondering, is it fair to say then that in your mind a marriage to a man that was about the same age as your daughter and a man that she fancied was preferable to your daughter being placed in a plural marriage, married to a man much older and perhaps sent away to somewhere like Short Creek? Yes. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about education. Did you attend the Bountiful Elementary and Secondary School? Yes, I did. And you believe that you received an excellent education at that school? Yes, I felt very well prepared to carry on. And can you tell me, has anyone in your community gone on to become a police officer? Not within the Bountiful community but there has in the States. And yeah, I'm talking about the Bountiful community. No. Sorry. So has anyone in your community gone on -your community being the Bountiful community, gone on to become a firefighter? When I married my husband he was a firefighter at that time. A certified general accountant? Yes. And was that one person? I think -- I'm not exactly sure. I know there's been people with accounting information -- I mean accounting schooling. Accounting school. So could that be bookkeeping as opposed -Yes. -- to a university? Yes. So has there been anybody that's got a university degree as a certified general accountant? Not that I'm aware of. What about an officer in the Canadian Armed Forces? No. An enlisted member of the Canadian Armed Forces? No. An engineer?

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

45 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Not to my knowledge. An architect? No. A university professor? No. A college professor? Not to my knowledge. A university-trained scientist of any type? Not to my knowledge, no. A doctor? No. A dentist? No. A psychologist? No. A physiotherapist? No. A veterinarian? No. A pharmacist? No. A banker? Not to my knowledge. Someone who has obtained a Masters degree in business? Not to my knowledge. A computer technician? Yes, we have computer technicians. I don't know how far their education went in that area. Would they be university trained? Not to my knowledge. But I don't know that. They wouldn't have university degrees? No. A government official of any type? I don't think so. Has anyone in your -- in the Bountiful community gone on to become a lawyer? No. A notary? No. A legal assistant or legal secretary? No. A commercial pilot? Pilot. Not commercial. A journalist? I don't think so. A TV reporter or other media professional?

46 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q No. An economist? I don't think so. Do you know of anyone in the Bountiful community who has attended the Bountiful Elementary School and Secondary School and then gone on to attend the British Columbia Institute of Technology? BCIT? Yes. I have taken courses through BCIT. Anyone else? I can't really speak for them. No, I wouldn't know that. So do you know anyone from the Bountiful community who has attended the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary school and then gone to attend Capilano University? Not to my knowledge, no. How about the University of British Columbia? I don't think so. But I -- again, I can't really speak for everyone. You don't know of anyone that has though? Not that I know of, no. Do you know of anyone who -- from the Bountiful community who again attended the Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School and then gone on to attend the Kwantlen Polytechnic University? Again, not to my knowledge. Do you know anyone that went on to the Okanagan University College? No. To Emily Carr University? Yeah, I would not know that but -- not to my knowledge, no. To Royal Roads University? No. To Thompson Rivers University? There may have been someone that has taken courses through Thompson River. I don't know. Do you know how many people? I don't know them. I don't know of them. I've heard of people talking about that particular institution but I don't know if they went on. I don't know. What About Trinity Western University? No. Do you know of anyone -- do you know if anyone has

A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q

47 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 attended the same school you did and then went on to attend the University of Northern British Columbia? That's not the northern lights; right? No, then. No. What about the University of the Fraser valley? No. University of Victoria? Not to my knowledge. And Vancouver Island University? No. Now, so apart from nursing, midwifery or teaching can you think of anyone in the community who has taken on a job for which a university degree is required? I don't think so, no. Now, at paragraph 6 of your affidavit -- do you have a copy of your affidavit in front of you? I do. At paragraph 6 of your affidavit you suggest that the reason -- you suggest that the reason that there aren't more secondary opportunities for Bountiful children is that they do not have the money to pursue higher education because it's all going to defending American church leaders. Is that a fair statement? I know in regards to myself I believe that for myself. Okay. And you agree that recently -- most recently you have had to send money to the United States to defend a number of church leaders; is that right? I have chosen to send money. I don't have to. And this includes sending money with respect to Warren Jeffs' defence? I wouldn't know in particular where it was going. I know that I have friends in the south that are facing prosecution and I would like to help them. So this money you're sending is going to help the church leaders, the current church leaders and men in the church that are facing criminal charges? As far as I know. I mean, yes, it is. And so that includes the men that are facing criminal charges in Texas for child sexual abuse? It includes the men in -- you said facing charges; right? Yes.

A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q

48 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Yes. The men facing charges. Yes. And it also includes the men that have been convicted in Texas of child sexual assault? Yes. Now, so how does it work? How is it that part of your money gets sent to the United States to aid in defending the church leaders? There is a request made by our bishop usually that would say anyone that has funds that they can put forward to help these -- help pay for lawyer fees we would appreciate it. So do part of the church tithings in Canada go to pay for legal defences in the United States? I wouldn't know that. I couldn't comment on that. How much of your family income have you been sending to assist with criminal defences of church people in the United States? I -- I cannot say. I could make an approximate amount. But it would be anywhere between $500 to $1,000. Sometimes we will pay that a few months in a row and then we don't. If we can't come up with it we can't. So we pay what we can. And so you're taking this 500 to $1,000 that you pay from time to time and paying it towards the defence of people -- men from your church that have been charged with a number of criminal offences in the States rather than putting that money into education; that's a fair statement? Yes, we are choosing to help them out with that money at this time. Now, you -- I believe you mention in your affidavit that both you and your sister wife work outside the home? Yes. Is that right? Yes. Do you work full-time? It's pretty much full-time. And what about your sister wife? She does as well. And your husband? Yes. And you yourself have nine children, I believe, aged 7 to 26? Yes. And does your sister wife also have nine children? She had ten.

Q A Q A

Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

49 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q So there's 19 children in your family? Yes. So you mention that you live at the poverty level? I believe we do. Is that correct? I believe I do. I don't know exactly what it is. You know, in terms of numbers but ... And is it possible -- I'm going to put a proposition to you that you live at the poverty level because you've been trying to raise 19 children on the family income that you have? I wouldn't say that is the only reason. It's one of the reasons though? It could be, yes. Now, I take it you're aware, aren't you, that there are all kinds of scholarships, bursaries and other financial support for students trying to attend Canadian universities? Yes. You're aware of student loans for universities? I am. Now, do you know of anyone in your community who has applied to a university, been accepted and yet could not go because their application for a student loan or bursary or scholarship was unsuccessful? You're asking if I know of anyone within the community? Yes. They made application to university, no. Now, Witness No. 2, it is mentioned your affidavit that you have a seven-year-old child? Yes. And I take it that you also feel, like with your education, that your seven-year-old is getting a good education at Bountiful Elementary School? Yes, I do. And all of the students that attend Bountiful Elementary-Secondary School are members of your church, aren't they? Yes. And I take it then none of the students ever show up to school dressed in shorts? No. And your seven-year-old, he or she doesn't play on a soccer team in Creston. Does the seven-year-old?

A Q A Q

A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

50 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q No. Or on a hockey team or skate with a figure skating club? No. So your seven-year-old is not involved in any kind of organized activities, whether they be sport or art or any other type of activity outside of Bountiful; right? No. Sorry, so the answer is, no, they're not involved in any activities -No, this particular child isn't. I have children that are. And so on the seven-year-old, the only contact then your seven-year-old child has with the world outside of Bountiful, is it fair to say it would be a visit to a doctor or a dentist? Other than using the facilities in town, for example, at the parks or the library, yes. And do you -- well, has your seven-year-old attended doctor visits or visits with the dentist -Yes. -- outside of Bountiful? And do you attend with your child when he or she goes to these visits? Yes. And you also attend when your child goes to the park or the library? It would be me or another adult. And I take it that when you've attended in the doctor's or dentist visits, the doctors or dentists have never told your seven-year-old anything bad about polygamy, have they? No. And these doctors or dentists never taught your seven-year-old to mistrust authority, did they? I don't think so, no. And so when you say in your affidavit that your seven-year-old says, I cried and cried because they were coming to get us, your seven-year-old learned this fear either from you or others in your community, didn't he or she? He has gotten information about the raid that was done in Texas and our school gets a lot of scrutiny from the government and, yes, he is aware of inspections coming to the school. We tell all the children that the school will be inspected.

A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q

A

51 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 And they were very much aware of the raid in the United States being that it involved a lot of our -- well, some of my relatives and our friends. And so it was -- it was you or other members of your community telling your child -- your seven-year-old child about the raid in Texas? Yes. And did you also tell your seven-year-old that as a result of the raid there have been a number of men charged with and now convicted of child sexual abuse? No, I haven't. Now, moving on to a new area. You talk in your affidavit about divorce. I was going to ask you a few questions about that. Now, I take it that you would agree with me that there is only one wife in a plural marriage situation that is legally married to the husband? Yes. And considering that only one wife is able to legally divorce? Yes. And is this generally the first wife? Generally, but not always. And as a legally married wife that wife who wanted to get a divorce and stay within the religion would have to seek permission of the prophet. Is that a fair statement? I don't think that she would need permission to stay. I can't see why she would need permission to stay. If she wanted to be separated she would separate and stay. If she wanted to. Okay. So do you know of any woman who has got a legal divorce from her husband but has not been reassigned to another man and lives in your community? No. Now, you are aware of instances where sometimes a man is found not to be righteous and is kicked out of your community? No, I am not aware of that. Not aware of that ever happening? I -- I think that there are people that have been asked to -- they're not kicked out of the community. If they have done something that's not agreeable to their wife usually would be the case, then the wife would go and make a request that

Q A Q

A Q

A Q A Q A Q

A

Q

A Q A Q A

52 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A they live separately for awhile. Maybe it was a poor choice of words on my part. Are you aware of any men that have been asked to leave the community because of -- for any reason? Well, asked to live separately, I don't know that it would be -- they haven't been asked to leave the community. They have been asked to live, like I said, in a separate area. It might be still within the community, but it's not with the wife that has the request. And there has been a circumstance in your community, hasn't there, where the man was either asked to leave or left the community and his wives were reassigned to another man; isn't that right? I am not aware of that. GREATHEAD: My Lord, I'm just hesitating because I'm not trying to run afoul of Your Lordship's order about anonymity. I suppose maybe I can ask the question and my friend can object if he so wishes. COURT: Okay. So don't -- you don't have to answer until we've had a discussion. Thank you. WITNESS: Okay. COURT: Go ahead. GREATHEAD: Sorry, so I should ask the question? COURT: Ask the question. Tell us what the question is and then we'll discuss it. GREATHEAD: I was going to ask the witness whether she was aware of Marlene Palmer's situation to her former husband Mr. Quinton, and wasn't it true that Mr. Quinton -- I believe it was Quinton, I may be wrong on the name, left the community and his wives were reassigned to another man. WICKETT: Well, I'm trying to conceive of how that question could be dealt with by the witness without violating the second aspect of your order. COURT: The second part of the order being what? WICKETT: Being she can't be asked to identify anybody in a criminally polygamous relationship. COURT: Sorry, that doesn't necessarily -- the question doesn't necessarily include the fact that Ms. Palmer lives in a polygamous relationship. WICKETT: I suppose. I don't know the facts of the particular case myself and my learned friend said "wives" so I -COURT: Okay. WICKETT: I believe she used the plural. I don't

Q

A MS.

THE THE THE MS. THE MS.

MR. THE MR. THE MR. THE MR.

53 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 know the people at all or the names. THE COURT: Okay. Is the question premised on the suggestion that Ms. Palmer lives in a plural marriage? MS. GREATHEAD: I'm sorry, My Lord. I couldn't hear you. THE COURT: Is the question premised on the allegation that Ms. Palmer lives in a plural marriage? MS. GREATHEAD: No, My Lord. And if it assists the court I may first ask the witness whether Marlene Palmer has left the FLDS. Whether she knows whether or not she has left. MR. WICKETT: The issue -- I don't object to that question at all, but the issue is, with respect to criminally polygamous relationships, relates both to her and to her perhaps former husband. I don't know. That's the concern that I've got. The first -- that last question, whether she's left the FLDS and whether she knows her or not, is not objectionable. THE COURT: Okay. So ask those two questions at least. MS. GREATHEAD: Q Witness No. 2, do you know Marlene Palmer? A I do. Q And has she left the FLDS? A She -- as far as -- yes. THE COURT: Did you hear that? MS. GREATHEAD: Yes, My Lord. And now may I ask the next question? THE COURT: What's the next question again? MS. GREATHEAD: The next question was, wasn't Marlene Palmer in a relationship where her husband was asked to leave the church and she was reassigned to another man. THE COURT: I don't hear an allegation of criminal conduct in that question. MR. WICKETT: No, I agree. As I said I don't know the people. I don't know if there's one or two spouses. So long as the question is limited in exactly that way I don't object to it. THE COURT: Okay. Thank you. Witness, if you wouldn't mind. THE WITNESS: To the best of my knowledge with Marlene Palmer, her first partner was not asked to leave the community and she was not assigned per se to anyone. She did ask to be remarried. And she is now no longer married to anyone now.

54 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 MS. GREATHEAD: Q So her first husband left the community? A Yes. Q Is that correct? A Yes. And she was given -- sorry. Q And she was placed with another man after that? A She requested to be placed, yes. Q Now, what does "apostacy "mean? A As far as I understand when you leave a particular faith and no longer belong to that faith you apostasize from it. Q And you call the people who have left your faith apostates? A That is -- I don't particularly call them anything but I have heard that term used. Q And what is a gentile in your faith? A Basically anyone that belongs -- doesn't belong to my faith, or I suppose any other faith. Q Now, you've told us that you -- that you know Truman Oler. Did you review the affidavit he filed in these proceedings? A I did have -- I did look at it, yes. I don't -well, no, I didn't look at the affidavit. I looked at what was written in the paper. Q So you're aware that he testified? A Yes. Q In these proceedings? A Yes. Q And I take it that -- well, tell me, would it surprise you that he felt that he wasn't welcome back in your community, in the FLDS community? A I think, as I said before, that when someone leaves and they don't share the same values then it's not -- anyone that comes to us is treated with respect, I believe. But, no, it wouldn't surprise me that someone was not welcomed back. Q Would it surprise you that he said his mom said he would have been better off dead than outside the FLDS? MR. WICKETT: Well, My Lord, again lots of latitude in cross-examination but that's crossed the line into an entirely -- in my respectful submission, an improper question. It contains, in the form of the question and the answer that is solicited, double speculation. THE COURT: Yes, I agree with that, Ms. Greathead. MS. GREATHEAD:

55 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q You mentioned that your brother had left the community, Witness No. 2. When was the last time you spoke with him? It was probably about a year ago. And before that when did you talk to him? It was probably six months or so. I can't remember exactly. And what did you talk about? We actually talked about he was going to mechanics school and we talked about that and I was excited for him and that was about it. Now, I've read in the press and talked to a number of people myself, former members of the FLDS that have left, and I want to you ask you some questions about people that I understand have left the FLDS. Do you know Wendell Oler? Yes. And is it your understanding that he's left the FLDS? Yes. And he left when he was about 15 years old? Probably, yes. And you know Frank Oler? Yes, I do. And it's your understanding that he left when he was about 14 years old? Probably. I'm not aware of those date -- that detail. You're aware that he left though? Yes. And Adam Oler? Yes. You're aware that he's left? Yes. And Wynn Oler, you're aware that he's left? Yes. And Kenneth Oler? Yes -- no. Rachel's son Kenneth Oler? I know of a Kenneth. That has left? Yes. And Clayton Palmer? Yes. And Leroy Oler? Yes.

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

56 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q And Terrence Oler? Yes. And Wilton Oler? Yes. And Eric Oler? Yes. And of course we've already heard Truman Oler, he's left and you know him. So of these, you agree that these are all young men that have left the FLDS community? Yes. And do you agree that by far the majority of these young men left without a high school degree? I would not know their education but because of their age then it probably is likely. I want to go back to the one before a little bit. As far as left FLDS there's probably some of those that are with Winston's group, so I don't know exactly, you know, who or what. Well, and there are a number of boys that have left from Winston's side as well, aren't there? I don't know that. I can't speak for that. Now, you've talked about you working, your sister wife working and your husband working. You agree your husband is a hard working man? Yes. And that -- so he -- I take it he works full-time, five days a week; is that right? Yes. And he attends church meetings on the weekends? Yes. And he also gives some of his time to assisting the bishop; is that correct? I -- he does occasionally but not often. Does he spend time alone with you? Yes. And with your sister wife? Yes. And so I take it that after working full-time, attending the church meetings he does attend, spending time alone with you and giving assistance sometimes to the bishop that he doesn't have a lot of time left over for his 19 children; is that right? It's true there isn't enough hours in the day, but at the present time we don't have 19 children in the home.

A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A

57 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q Well, is it fair to say that when a man has 19 children he's unable to devote as much time to them as when he has two, four or six? Yes. And how many children do you have in the home now? Counting up here. Eight or nine. My older boys work in Alberta so they come back on weekends. Now, you've told us that it was difficult for you to be away from your children while you were away studying? Yes. And were these long periods of time that you were away studying? I would have to leave sometimes for two or three days at a time, to leave town to go to a college. And when you would leave for two or three days at a stretch, during these times was it your older children and your sister wife who were looking after your kids? Yes. And what happened when both -- you mentioned your sister wife works as well, so when both your sister wife and you were away working who looks after the children? They're all of school age. And when they weren't of school age who looked after the children? My sister wife wasn't working then. And after school now when you're away do you hire a nanny? No. Do the older siblings help with looking after the younger children? They do, but my husband comes home with them after school. And was that something you did as a girl growing up too was help raise your siblings? It was something that I took great pleasure in. Now, His Lordship has heard that within plural marriages there's a special love between a mother and her own biological children. Do you agree? Yes. Can you elaborate on that? I believe there's a special love between, at least I hope there is, between every mother and a child. And you indicate in your affidavit that there have been times when the relationship with your sister

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

58 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 wife was not so good. Can you explain what you mean by that. I mean that any two or three individuals -- well, I guess any two individuals trying to -- trying to live in the same home there's -- conflicts are going to arise. I don't particularly care who it is. And it happens in -- I believe in everyone's life and you just have to deal with it. Now, I take it that you aware of girls other than your daughter who have been placed in marriage as 15-year-olds; is that right? Yes. And you're aware of others that have been placed in marriage who are between 15 and 18 years old? Yes. And that you've come across and met many young girls that have been sent from the United States as teenagers to live in Bountiful? I would not say many. I would say in the course of time that I've been aware of, as far as a teens coming across into Canada, I don't know, roughly nine or ten. I would have to count. And that these young girls that come over as teenagers from the United States have been married to Canadian men; is that right? Yes. Now, at paragraph 8 of your affidavit you indicate that your church has now committed that it will not perform underage marriages? Yes. And when did this start from? I believe it was about a year and a half ago. So sometime in 2009? I am not -- I am not aware of the exact date on that, no. I don't know. Could it have been June 2008? I don't know that. I'm sorry. Now, so since this policy has come into place have there been any marriages within your community? No. Not in Bountiful. Not in Bountiful. And so there have been -obviously there's been no marriages, there's been no plural marriages during that timeframe? No. Now, I am going to -- you mentioned that you have read In Light and Truth. Madam Clerk has some copies of In Light and Truth that I would like to

A

Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

59 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 put to the witness. MS. GREATHEAD: Your Lordship, I have not reproduced the entire version of In Light and Truth but it is attached as an exhibit to the affidavit of Ms. Horsman at Exhibit 12 in these proceedings. Q Now, Witness No. 2, have you been provided with a copy of -- entitled In Light and Truth: Raising Children in the Family Order of Heaven? A In front of me? The piece in front of me? Q Yes. A Okay, yes, I have a copied paper in front of me that says In Light and Truth. Q And are you looking at the first page there? A Yes, I am. Q And you'll see that this particular version is called In Light and Truth: Raising Children in the Family Order of Heaven. The Word of the Lord Through his Servants, the Prophets. It's the second edition and it's published by the president Rulon T. Jeffs; do you see that? A Yes. Q And if you go over the page you will see that the table of contents has been reproduced? A Yes. Q And that topics such as section 1, priesthood marriage, and over the page there, the purpose of celestial marriage, the marriage covenant, proper marriages, those are some of the topics that are covered -A Yes. Q -- in this book? And this is a book that you've read and are familiar with? A I have not read it. I have read little clips from it but I have not read the entire book. Q Do you own a copy of this book? A I do -- my husband owns one. Q You have one in the home and you've read parts of it? A I have. Q Now, I'm going to put some of this to you and just ask you some questions about some of the passages in this book. And the first one, if you could just turn over the page to page 10. And do you see there halfway through the page at page 10, "families taken from the unfaithful." A Yes, I can see that heading. Q And in -- this provision here, I'll just read it

60 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 into the record and then ask you a question about it. It says: Now, where a man in this church says I do not want but one wife, I will live my religion with one, he will perhaps be saved in the celestial kingdom but when he gets there he will not find himself in possession of any wife at all. He has had a talent that he has hid up. He will come forward and say here is that which though gavest me. I have not wasted it and here is the one talent. And he will not enjoy it but it will be taken and given to those who have improved the talents they received and he will find himself without any wife and will remain single forever and ever. But if the woman is determined not to enter into a plural marriage, that woman when she becomes forth will have the privilege of living in a single blessedness through all eternity. Well, that is very good, a very nice place to minister to the wants of others. A Q Now, this was one of the teachings of your church? I can see it, it says right there. It says, Brigham Young, August 31st, 1973? And it is saying to the women if you don't enter plural marriage as a woman you will spend eternity ministering to the wants of others; is that correct? I think you can interpret that however way you choose. And is that how you interpret it? No. How do you interpret it? I think -- I mean, my beliefs are that living plural marriage isn't for everyone. But it is for everyone who wants to get to the highest level of celestial kingdom, isn't it? And maybe everyone doesn't want to. Now, can you turn over to page 36, and there you see the section sub 2 states: There is a covenant of obedience in connection with that and separated from it as it pertains to the man and the woman. She

A Q A Q A Q A Q

61 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 covenants to obey her husband and he obeys God. Do you see that? Yes. And this obedience by the wife to the husband is a principle that was taught in your religion, isn't it? A Like I said before, obedience and how I interpret that statement you just read is as he is Christ-like. Q Right. And you're told again and again that you -- as a girl growing up in your community that you should be obedient to your father and obedient to your husband; isn't that true? A No. Q You do agree that your church leaders use the word "obedience" and gave their direction about obedience to the churchgoers? A I am aware that they use the word "obedience." Q Okay. In the interests of time I'm going to leave that and just move to one other document that I wanted to put to you. MS. GREATHEAD: And this -- Madam Clerk has two big black columns and the word "8 a.m. R 1 time decision record of president Warren Jeffs." I'm sorry, in the interests of time and getting the second witness on I'm actually not going to take the witness to this second document. I have one final question and then I will -- or one final set of questions and then I will sit down, My Lord THE COURT: Thank you. MS. GREATHEAD: Q So, Witness No. 2, I take it you would agree with me that in a society where new people aren't entering, and I take it that people aren't being converted to your religion; is that right? A There haven't been any new members in Bountiful recently. Q And that polygamy means some men are going to get more than one wife. That's right, isn't it? A Yes, it is. Q And if you have roughly equal numbers of boys and girls that are born at Bountiful, would that be right? A Yes. A Q

62 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Greathead Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q And so if some of those boys will have more than one wife then other boys are not going to have any wives at all; right? A It has not been my experience that there are boys that go without a wife. Q Well, how is that if there are men that have more than one wife? A Because, at least in Bountiful, we've had a lot more risk-taking youth and we have had young men that have died through different accidents, vehicle accidents, and we have more men -- or more the young boys that get into drugs and alcohol and decide to leave. MS. GREATHEAD: Those are my questions, My Lord. THE COURT: Thank you. Mr. Reimer? MR. REIMER: Sorry, if I might have a moment, My Lord. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MR. REIMER: Q For the record, witness, my name is Keith Reimer, last name spelled R-e-i-m-e-r. I am counsel with the Attorney General of Canada in this matter. I just have a few questions. More a followup from questions you've been answering already today. Just so I'm clear, you yourself were married at 16; is that correct? A Yes. Q And your daughter was married at 15? A Yes. Q And both of those marriages were performed by church leaders? A Yes. Q And how old was your husband when you married him? A 29. Q And if I understood your testimony correctly your sister wife is actually your biological sister; is that correct? A Yes. Q And you're the second wife; right? A Yes. Q And how old was your sister then when she married your husband? A I believe she was 16. Q And how old was your husband when he married your sister? A He would have been around -- about 23. Q So there's a 6-year gap between your husband marrying your sister and your husband marrying

63 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q you; is that right? It's approximately six years, yes. Okay. Now, I think you mentioned, and I might have misheard you just because of the audio, I believe you said that your sister was not present at your wedding to your husband; is that right? No, she wasn't. And why was she not present? Because I went down to the States and she stayed up in Canada. So you were married in the States to your husband? Yes, I was. Now, I understand that you have -- you have nine children; is that correct? Yes, it is. And I think in your affidavit you indicated that four of those are over the age of 18? Yes. And how many of those children that are over the age of 18 are girls? Two. And one of those girls is married? Yes. And how old is the other girl who is not married? 23. And have the boys who are over 18 -- your two boys who are over 18, have they been assigned wives? No. How old were you when you had your first child? 17. And how soon after getting married did you have your first child? It was about a year and a month. And how old were you when you had your second child? It was about two years later. So roughly 19? Yes. And your third child? You're asking me to do a lot of math here. I don't keep track of those numbers. But it was about a year -- two years again later. So I would have been 20, 21. And your fourth child, would it be fair for me to guess that would be another two years later, approximately? It was about a year and nine months.

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A

64 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q THE MR. And the fifth child? It was approximately two years. Okay. So can I extrapolate from what you've told us that you were having children roughly somewhere between a year and a half to two years apart? Yes. Okay. And that was true for all nine of your children? No, my last three, they were four years and three years apart. Now, your daughter who was married at 15? Yes. She has children? Yes, she does. And how old was she when she had her first child? 17. And did you talk to your daughter about using birth control when she got married at 15? Not then. I did later, but not right then. Why not? Because by and large how -- birth control is not encouraged in our community. Is it discouraged? I have never heard a discussion about it really so I can't really say. I guess -- growing up, I mean. Did you yourself use birth control at all during your marriage? COURT: Well, is that -WICKETT: Much of this cross-examination has strayed very far from the issues that concern us in this case, but that question, with respect, My Lord, has crossed into an area of personal questioning which seems to me to be entirely improper given the nature of this evidence and the purpose of this case. COURT: Mr. Reimer? Do you have anything to say? REIMER: My Lord, the issue of birth control and its use within the Bountiful community and the views within Bountiful community has been discussed. COURT: The topic generally, but asking a highly personal question of an individual hasn't been done before. REIMER: I'm prepared to move on, My Lord. COURT: Thank you. REIMER:

THE MR.

THE MR. THE MR.

65 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q Witness, at paragraph 4 of your affidavit you talk about divorce and you say that everyone can divorce if they so chose? Yes. Now, if you chose to get divorced from your husband, and bearing in mind that you're not legally married to your husband, what would have you to do to divorce him? Tell him I no longer wanted to live with him. And would you need to seek the approval of the church leaders to leave your husband? No. You would simply be able to leave him? Yes. And would you be placed into another marriage if you divorced your husband? If I so choosed. And what would happen to your children if you divorced your husband? I -- I have never really considered it, but they would come with me. Or perhaps some would stay with him. Now, in your affidavit at paragraph 8 you talk about your awareness that the church has committed that it will not perform marriages for persons younger than the age permitted in the jurisdiction where the person lives, and I think you indicated during earlier testimony that was a recent policy in the last year and a half; is that correct? Yes. Do you know at what age a person is permitted by law to get married in British Columbia? I believe it's 18. And this policy that you speak of, is this a local Bountiful community policy or a church -- an FLDS church-wide policy? It would be a church-wide policy. And how was that policy communicated to the members of the Bountiful community? It was communicated through word of mouth and it's posted on the FLDS website. When you got married at the age of 16 did you know other girls who were getting married at the age of 16 in the community? Yes. Did you know girls in the community who were getting married younger than that?

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

66 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Q A Q A No. Do you know of any boys getting married when they're 16 or younger? No. Do you know who Angela Campbell is? Yes, I do. Have you met Angela Campbell? I have. And who is she? She's a professor working -- I believe it's out of -- somewhere in Ontario, and she came and interviewed different members of our community. Basically she is a law professor who is interested in polygamy. And do you know that she visited the Bountiful community in 2008? I know that she was out there, yes. And did you know that she visited again in 2009? I don't remember exact times but I know I saw her there once. Did you speak to Professor Campbell? Yes, I did. And were you interviewed by Professor Campbell? Yes, I was. Do you know if anyone else from the Oler side of the FLDS side of the Bountiful community was interviewed by Professor Campbell? I don't know of anyone but I wouldn't necessarily know that. When you were preparing your affidavit that was filed in this matter -Yes. Did you speak to your husband about the contents of your affidavit? He was aware I was writing it. He didn't -- but as far as -- I did discuss it with him. And did you speak to any of the church leaders about your affidavit? I think it was actually the bishop that -- it was the bishop was the one that got a hold of me and wanted me to write it. I can't remember exactly but I think that's how it happened. And I think you testified earlier that you knew of women in the Bountiful community who had moved to Canada to marry men up here; is that correct? Yes. And I believe you said you were aware of roughly

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A

Q A Q

67 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A MR. THE MR. Q nine to ten? That I've been in -- in close contact with so that I would know them. REIMER: Sorry, My Lord. We have the unique situation of the phone ringing without a court clerk here. COURT: Oh. REIMER: And just to come back to -- I believe your earlier testimony was that you knew nine to ten teenage girls who came to Canada from the US to marry; is that correct? Yes. And these teenage girls had come to Canada from the United States? Yes. And they were married to men up here after they arrived in Canada? Not always. They might have been married before they came. But they were marrying men from the Bountiful community? Yes. Or are you saying that they -- so the marriages might have been in the States? Yes. But then both -Yes. -- or the couple would have moved back up to Canada? Yes. And in paragraph 13 of your affidavit you talk about -- you say -- I'll let you get that in front of you. It's a short quote here. In paragraph 13 you say "we have an extremely hard time helping women immigrate when they marry as a plural spouse, as it is very hard to get medical insurance." Can I ask you who are referring to when you say "we" there in paragraph 13? WICKETT: I rise only, My Lord, is my learned friend asking -- I'm sorry to ask a question, My Lord, is my learned friend asking for names, or is he referring to people within the community? If he's asking for names I'm objecting to it. REIMER: No, I understand that. I wasn't actually asking for specific names, but perhaps a little more detail than rather than just "we" -- is it

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

MR.

MR.

68 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 church leaders, the community. THE COURT: Okay. THE WITNESS: In response to your question I have just taken a personal interest in immigration and when I say "we" I'm referring to myself and the particular woman I guess, and no -- not church leaders. Q Okay. Do you know how these girls are coming into Canada? In other words, are they flying in or are they driving in? Do you know? A As far as I know driving. Q And do you know what these girls' immigration status is? Do you know what status they are coming into Canada as? A They are coming on initially a visitors permit and then they make a spousal application. You're talking about plural wives. Q I believe in your affidavit you were talking about them coming in as plural wives? A That's right. Correct. Okay. So they -- every incidence is different but they may come in on a visitor record or a student record and once they have established a way to be in Canada legally then they go forward -- they've gone forward with that. Q And I'm just interested in exploring that a bit. You say they come in as visitors, or you suggested students. They're getting married to men up here in Canada; is that correct? A That is the -- yes. Q And these are second or third or fourth wives? These are the plural wives of these men? A Yes. Q And then you say after they've been up here and figure out a way to stay they proceed with that. I'm just curious, are they renewing their visitor status? A When it runs out they do. Or a student status. Q And are these women who are marrying men in Canada as far as you know intending to leave the country? A If they do not get legal status they do. Q And do they, in fact, leave the country? A In fact, what, sorry? Q And sorry, do they, in fact, leave Canada when their visitor status expires? A Yes, they do. Q And where do they go?

69 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q A Into Idaho. And do they stay in Idaho? Until an application is approved. Sorry, what sort of application? A -- for example, if it was a plural wife situation she may legally marry the man if he wasn't legally married to his first wife or get status through completing a course of education. Sorry, they come into Canada as students then to complete that course of education? Yes. Or make an application. Sorry. Sorry. Go ahead. It has been my experience you can make an application as a common law partner as well. And are they disclosing in their application that their husband is married to somebody else? He hasn't been in the case I've been involved in. Not legally married but had he been celestially married? It is my understanding with immigration that you can have previous partners, and so we've told them the truth. So -- you say since you've been involved in these you've been telling immigration that -That yes -Or informing immigration that, yes, their husband is actually in another relationship? Yes. I'm just speaking for one case, the case I'm involved in. And in that case has the individual, the woman, the girl involved gotten immigration status here in Canada? She's working on it. How long has that application been outstanding? It's been about eight months. She's living in the States. Sorry. Both of them are or she is? She is. And her husband is up in Bountiful? Yes. Do you think that it would be easier for these women to immigrate legally to Canada if polygamy were decriminalized? I don't know. I would hope. Now, you've been talking about girls coming up to Canada from the United States -- teenage girls coming Canada from the United States to marry men

Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

70 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Mr. Reimer 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 up here. Are you aware of any girls from Bountiful going down to the United States to marry men down there? A Yes. Q Approximately how many? A I would not be able to give you a -- I don't know. Let me think. I could count up of approximately the same amount. Maybe eight. Q And again these are teenage girls going down to the United States? A Well, teenage being under 20. I mean anywhere -yes. Q And are you aware of any girls going down to the United States from Bountiful after June of 2008? A No. Q You're clearly aware that polygamy is currently illegal in Canada; is that right? A Yes. Q And how long have you known that polygamy is illegal in Canada? A Probably as long as I can remember. Q And do you know when the last prosecution -- the last criminal prosecution for polygamy in Canada was? A In terms of someone was prosecuted? I don't -Q Yes. A Where they went to jail? Q Well, where charges were laid against them and yes, they were brought to trial. A No, I don't. Q Do you know if there's ever been a prosecution in Canada for polygamy? A I have heard there hasn't been. But I don't know that. Q And if polygamy were being prosecuted regularly in Canada would you still practice polygamy? A I would find it very difficult. MR. REIMER: My Lord, I note the time and I note the witness has been on the stand. Perhaps if we could take a very short break I can confirm that may be it. I suspect it probably is, but if I can have a short break and then we return I appreciate it. THE COURT: Let's take a 10-minute break. THE CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned for an afternoon recess.

71 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Gaffar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 (WITNESS STOOD DOWN) (AFTERNOON RECESS) THE CLERK: Order in court. WITNESS NO. 2, a witness for the FLDS, recalled. THE COURT: Mr. Reimer. MR. REIMER: Yes, thank you, My Lord. After the break I have no further questions. Thank you. THE COURT: Thank you. Ms. Gaffar. MS. GAFFAR: Thank you, Chief Justice. For the record my name is Deanne Gaffar, G-a-f-f-a-r, on behalf of West Coast LEAF. CROSS-EXAMINATION BY MS. GAFFAR: Q Madam, I know that you have been on the stand all day and I can assure you that I will not be very long in my questions. May I ask you, please, to turn to the first page of your affidavit which is Exhibit 79 in these proceedings, paragraph 4. Can you just tell me when you have reached that point. A I'm looking at paragraph 4. Q In the second sentence of paragraph 4 you refer to the church leaders and I just wanted to ask you very quickly about that. You have testified about your prophet bishops and I believe you testified about the priesthood. When you refer to church leaders are you referring to the prophet, bishops and the priesthood? A It would be the bishop and prophet probably more accurately. Q Okay. There are also other figures in your church called elders? A Yes. Q And are they too considered to be church leaders? A I wouldn't say, no. Q The one thing it is fair to say is that a woman could never be a prophet, bishop or part of the priesthood; correct? A Yes. Q In your particular community in Bountiful Mr. James Oler is the bishop; correct? A Yes. Q And are you aware that the duties of a bishop are

72 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Gaffar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 set out the doctrines and covenants as well as holy scripture; correct? I have never seen the duties of a bishop. I have never studied that. It's fair to say that when the prophet is not present or exercising his authority over your community the primary authority is the bishop; correct? I wouldn't be able to say exactly how that would work. I think there are high council members as well. High council members, are they the same as the priesthood? Not necessarily. Is there anyone higher in rank in the community that lives in the community than the bishop? No. From the earliest age when you were growing up you were taught about the doctrine and covenants and holy scriptures at home; correct? At home and when I attended meetings, church on Sunday. Yes, that was my -- yes. That was my next question. You were taught about doctrine, covenants and holy scripture in church? Yes. Each week; correct? Yes. And you testified that recordings or broadcasts by the prophet were played at church; correct? They have been in the last while but when I was growing up, no. The bishop delivers sermons in church; correct? Yes. And you were taught about your faith when you attended school; correct? We studied church history in school. FLDS church history? The -- yes. The Mormon -- Latter-day Saints -fundamentalist -- yes. I know, it's been a long day. While you were attending school there were also daily assemblies at which time the prophet's teachings were either read out or recordings played; correct? Not while I attended school, no. But you learned that that has since been done in

A Q

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A Q

73 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Gaffar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 A Q A Q the schools? I could not comment on that. And there were certainly pictures of the prophets in the entrance foyer area of the school; correct? Yes. So it's fair to say with this extensive teaching and instruction of your faith, both at -- well, at home, church and school, you were expected to know the doctrines and covenants of your faith; correct? Yes, I -- I know of them. Well, you were being taught -Yes. -- those doctrines and covenants? That's right, yes. Expected to know them? Not off by heart, but know -- we -- they were referred to, yes. And you were supposed -- you were expected to live your life according to the doctrines and covenants? Yes. I have read from information provided by your current bishop about something called the law of consecration and stewardship which is also known as the United Order of Heaven. And that is a principle that requires essentially church members to turn over their property to the bishop of the church. You're aware of that doctrine; correct? I am aware of the doctrine that was preached in Joseph Smith's time about United Effort Plan or united effort. Living United Order. Is that what you said? No, I'm talking about the law of consecration and stewardship otherwise known as the United Order of Heaven that was established in 1831 and comprises section 42 of the doctrine and covenants. That's right. I am aware. And that is the doctrine that requires members to turn over their property to the bishop of the church; correct? It does require them to consecrate, yes. In your life have you ever owned any property or house or land in Bountiful? I own land that -- no, not in Bountiful, no. Has your husband? No.

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q

A

Q

A Q A Q A Q A

74 Witness No. 2 (for FLDS) Cross-exam by Ms. Gaffar 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 Q A Q In Bountiful? No. You worked -- or you work full-time, your sister wife works full-time, your husband works full-time. From the income that you make how much do you turn over to the bishop? As I said before we turn over -- well, I guess I didn't mention the tithing. We turn over a tenth. One-tenth of your income goes to the church -Yes. -- as a tithing? Yes. And this is in addition to the requested monies for assisting the legal defence of individuals charged in the United States? Yes. That's correct. You testified that you were interviewed by Angela Campbell; correct? Yes. Yes. How did you come to speak to Angela Campbell? I think my name was given by a friend to her and then she called me on the phone. Prior to speaking to Angela Campbell did you discuss the prospect of speaking with Angela Campbell with church leaders? No. So when you were interviewed by Angela Campbell are you saying that none of the church leaders in your community knew? That is correct. Did your husband know? I think I told him after. GAFFAR: Thank you, Chief Justice. Those are my questions. COURT: Thank you. Any other cross? No. Any redirect, Mr. Wickett? WICKETT: You'll be glad to hear that I have no redirect. COURT: Thank you. Thank you very much, witness, for coming to court. WITNESS: You're welcome. (WITNESS EXCUSED) MR. WICKETT: My Lord, I note the time. I don't think there's any point in starting with the next witness. I wonder whether my friends -- we had

A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A Q A MS. THE MR. THE THE

75 Certification 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29 30 31 32 33 34 35 36 37 38 39 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 thought we were going to get two witnesses done today, particularly since my examination in direct was rather brief. We've managed to go all day. I wonder if my friend Mr. Jones has a sense of how long the cross-examinations for the remaining witnesses might be. JONES: I think I can happily advise that they will be much shorter than today. I explained to my friend Mr. Wickett prior to this hearing that we'd make our efforts to divide the questions so that they tend to be focussed on areas that were discussed by the affiants and to avoid repetition where it's not necessary. So with that in mind I think we front loaded a fair number of the questions today, but we'll have different questions tomorrow. I think we're in good shape to finish both witnesses tomorrow. COURT: Good. Okay. Anything else before we break? WICKETT: Nothing, My Lord. COURT: Thank you very much. Tomorrow morning. CLERK: Order in court. Court is adjourned until January 26th, 2011 at 10 a.m. (PROCEEDINGS RECESSED AT 3:55 P.M.) I, SPENCER J. CHAREST, OFFICIAL REPORTER IN THE PROVINCE OF BRITISH COLUMBIA, CANADA, DO HEREBY CERTIFY: THAT THE PROCEEDINGS WERE TAKEN DOWN BY ME IN SHORTHAND AT THE TIME AND PLACE HEREIN SET FORTH AND THEREAFTER TRANSCRIBED, AND THE SAME IS A TRUE AND CORRECT AND COMPLETE TRANSCRIPT OF SAID PROCEEDINGS TO THE BEST OF MY SKILL AND ABILITY. IN WITNESS WHEREOF, I HAVE HEREUNTO SUBSCRIBED MY NAME THIS 17TH DAY OF FEBRUARY 2011.

MR.

THE MR. THE THE

______________________ SPENCER J. CHAREST OFFICIAL REPORTER

You're Reading a Free Preview

Download
scribd
/*********** DO NOT ALTER ANYTHING BELOW THIS LINE ! ************/ var s_code=s.t();if(s_code)document.write(s_code)//-->