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Modesty - Thoughts From the Guys

Modesty - Thoughts From the Guys

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Published by Andrew Ledwith

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Categories:Types, Research
Published by: Andrew Ledwith on May 30, 2011
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Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

Modesty: Thoughts from the Guys
1) Lust and love are two completely separate (i.e. not connected at all) desires for men, and the skin of a woman only ignites one of them (lust). 2) Appropriate levels of body and soul should be given with appropriate levels of commitment from the man, or you’ll just be dealing with a selfish boy, forever. 3) It is the role of the man to love his wife self-sacrificially and the role of wife to respect her husband. It is therefore worth waiting for a man who is worthy of that respect, one who “is respected at the city gates,” and one who will be able to love you self-sacrificially under Christ. And a hint is that if he’s not doing it now to others, he’s not going to do it for you after the “in love” stage. In the “in love” stage a guy will do just about anything, but that stage does not last forever. After that stage, his character will be what produces appropriate actions. If he didn’t have any before, he’s not going to have any now, and you’ll be stuck with all the work and not much of his heart. All of you Nav girls dress very appropriately/modestly and it is a standard I believe you alumni girls have set. It's rare that we see anybody dressed inappropriately. For the most part, the girls in Navs, especially the alumni, dress in a way that is honoring to all parties involved (e.g. themselves, their families, brothers in Christ, God). My next thought is just to share the reality that, generally speaking, in its most sinful form, the desire for sex in men is not affiliated with the desire for love. They are two separate entities and they are the two main desires. They do both exist in men, i.e. we do have souls , but they are two separate entities. When a man sees a girl dressed in a way that shows off some skin and his sexual desire is aroused, he’s not thinking about connecting with her on a heart level. His body is thinking about her body and nothing else. The other is just that men are held as much accountable to the gentle and quiet spirit as women, even though that specific verse applies to women, the Hebrew word used in that case is first used to describe Jesus in Matthew 21:5 of being “gentle and riding on a donkey,” also in Matthew 5:5, that “the meek will inherit the earth.” It’s really the idea of a “modest spirit” which overflows into modest dressing. All we’re doing when we dress immodestly is drawing attention to ourselves. 1) a. What things do girls wear/say/do to make it hard for us guys to live in purity. Wear (“not healthy”) i. ii. iii. iv. Tennis skirts (i.e. the fad last year) Pants and tops that shape the butt or breasts. Clothes that show off the midriff (stomach). String bikinis

v. Short skirts (Short is somewhat relative for each guy, but you’re pretty safe if you just make sure to cover up as much of the thighs as you can. At the very least, more than half.) – To be blunt, and hopefully help you grasp the reality of the sexual mind, skirts are especially bad if they’re short, more so than shorts, because skirts make sex more visually “accessible.” vi. b. Cleavage, either from the breasts or butt. Neither is really attractive, but they do draw attention.

Do (“not healthy”)


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

i. For this section I just think about the gentle and quiet spirit and about modesty of the heart, not just the body. A woman can draw just as much attention, if not more, to herself through actions, as she can by dressing in a way to draw that attention. ii. Flirting, we all know when we’re doing it, and we all do it in different ways, but it’s mostly giving that undivided attention to the one guy with playful actions. And to offer some grace here, I really have no idea where the line is between growing in friendship and becoming more loose/playful and flirting, but that is probably relative. Flirting, I would say, is that action of attempting to engage the heart of another, with no other intent than to seduce him/her into finding you more attractive. And I use “seduce” somewhat loosely and possibly inappropriately. I don’t necessarily think that when we all flirt we have some grand scheme in mind to have so-and-so be our husband/wife/do mighty acts for us, but I do believe there is a charming/manipulative factor involved when men/women flirt with each other. I don’t know, I haven’t thought through that one completely, so please take or leave my thoughts. I will at least stand by my first thought that we all know, individually when we’re flirting with somebody. iii. Singling somebody out a lot. Obviously some singling out will happen (one on one conversations), and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with it, but when it’s the same person and it’s more than what you’re doing with other guys, the heart needs to be checked. iv. Really, I think for guys and girls, it’s all about just watching your own heart. If you feel like you’re showing somebody a lot of extra attention, without really any commitment level to have earned that attention, it’s not good. ****A big point I would make is that actions should follow commitment, not the other way around. The body and the soul of a woman is a pearl, to which I would apply Matthew 7:6 – “Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces.” It was in a book I read, Sex and the Soul of a Woman, that men should be encouraged to grow up. And I completely agree. When girls let guys have a piece of their bodies or souls, without any prior commitment, the girls are just allowing those guys to be little boys, getting what they want without having to work for it. When men pursue women they are forced to face themselves and their fear of rejection, which forces them to “man up.” And you women want to be with a man, not a boy that seeks to only have his own desires fulfilled. By giving him even a little, without having to earn it by committing to you, it is setting a pattern for the future that will cause him to be selfish and not man up in other areas (being a husband and father, helping out with the chores, sharing his heart). I will tell you that every guy thinks it’s easier to connect with girls than it is to connect with guys, at least initially, and they will continue to do so because women are more attractive than men, both physically and at the heart and because it’s easier. Guys know most girls are not going to speak bluntly and challenge them like their guy friends will. And please don’t take it as an insult. One principle too is that, although opposites attract, like kinds attract as well. Mankind is attracted to mankind, dogs to dogs and birds to birds. If you want to be with a man of God who will love you unconditionally and self-sacrificially, you must be a woman of God who will respect your future husbands and not put up with anything less. You want someone who will be able to fulfill His role under Christ to love you self-sacrificially, giving himself up for you, not some selfish child. Also, as it is the role of the wife to respect her husband, you want to be with somebody who is worthy of your respect. The Proverbs 31 woman is one whose husband is respected at the city gates. Obviously she did not make him into a respectful man, as that is God’s job; she just made a good choice in getting a respectful man, probably by being a wise and respectful woman. And it’s worth the wait. Oak trees take time to grow (Isaiah 61:3), but they can hold a lot on their shoulders. v. Exalting “hot guys” that are completely not on the pursuit to honor God is not at all respectful and is discouraging. It communicates valuing of the flesh and not the godly soul. 2) What things do girls wear/not wear/say/do that are encouraging for us in that area.


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty


I can speak personally that I am very comfortable in the presence of women who are dressed modestly. And I know I at least do not say “thank you” enough, probably because it’s become the norm, but thank you to you all. It is encouraging to me to be friends with women that value themselves and us enough to dress modestly. For this I more just wanted to address “cuteness,” as my perception is that girls like to dress uniquely and “cutely” (for lack of a better word), and that the whole modesty talk could discourage that idea. And I just wanted to say I think that cuteness is awesome. Lust for the physical body is a struggle for men and should be taken into account by women pursuing the Lord, as well as watching your own heart to make sure you’re not dressing a certain way so as to draw attention, but there’s a certain amount of expressive and creative life that women have and men don’t. And I think outfits can be a way that is put to use. I honestly can’t speak too much to this because I don’t really understand clothing from a woman’s perspective, but it’s something at least for you to consider is just the idea of not having to wear a tarp to be modest. And I’m sure y’all have already thought of that to some degree, I just wanted to address it. In the gentle and quiet spirit verse he says, “Your adornment should not be merely external….” He doesn’t completely cut off “braiding of the hair, wearing dresses” and so on, he just says there is a deeper and greater adornment, which is the gentle and quiet spirit.


Let the ladies of Yajua know that we love them and sincerely appreciate their hearts and their wanting to walk with God; it is the heart that defines beauty. You women are amazing. 1) Specific things that girls wear/do/say that make it difficult for men to live in purity: Skin, and tight clothes Another thing is talking about hot guys... movie stars, singers, etc. It can make us want to give up and settle for trying to be "hot" like them. 2) Specific things that girls can do/wear/not wear/say to bless you and encourage you in that area: I think the biggest temptation for Christian guys isn't the slutty "sorority" girls, but rather that we settle for a Christian girl with some worldly and some Godly beauty. This gives us the option of living for our sinful desires but masking it with Godly desires. Thus it is a great encouragement to see women of God who focus only on being beautiful in heart. 3) Any other thoughts you want to share on this topic are welcome: 1 Samuel 16:7 is a key verse for me on beauty. Godly beauty is in the heart. To counter the worldly ideas of beauty, I think that too often we settle for a little of both. I sincerely appreciate and thank God for women who focus on beautifying their hearts. 1 Corinthians 13:4 is probably my key verse in trying to judge how I love. Especially in how I treat or react to my sisters. The problem is that the world says love is totally the opposite. You can find the antonym of each phrase in the verse and that is how the world treats and teaches us to treat love.

My first thought is that women are incredible. You all are like flowers. You smell pretty, you are gentle, compassionate, beautiful on the inside and outside. Women don't need to do too much to get a man’s attention. We just have to look at you. All guys are fighting their desires and being captivated with someone. What we need help in is to cherish women for who God created you to be. The more a


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

guy sees you with value, honor, class, and respect he will uphold you. I think the movie King Kong is a good visual expression of this. King Kong is a movie about beauty and the women in the movie upheld that. The word of God has pictures all over the place. I would encourage the girls to be obedient to God's word. I do think the alumni women emulate for the younger women how to dress. I think this is respectful of men. If you could also ask each of the girls to forgive us guys for looking at you in the wrong way. I would say outside of breaking God's heart, looking at a woman in the wrong way is not good. I don't even have the words to describe how I been wrong. It hurts to choose sin. I would like to stand on behalf of men and ask the women to forgive us for our wickedness. Articles of clothing I detest and despise: 1) Shirts that show cleavage. I hurt for women when they wear this. Women have led men to sin because of how they have dressed. Men have chosen to sin over loving God. 2) I hate those shorts that are cut off and practically go up to the butt. Tacky, really tacky! (I think they are jean shorts.) 3) A woman does not need too much make-up. Make-up should enhance not drown a woman’s looks. 4) No tattoos on the lower back. Tacky. P.S. I think the Nav women overall are pretty good with what they wear.

1) Specific things that girls wear/do/say that make it difficult for you to live in purity: Things that Girls Wear: It frustrates me when girls wear clothes that expose a lot of skin when they don't have to. I understand about going to the beach and stuff like that, but wearing short shorts and tank tops to class can be dangerous. Wearing clothes that expose your skin is often an open invitation (whether purposely done or inadvertently done by the woman) for a guy to check the woman out and partially objectify her. Things that Girls Do: Bend over in front of a guy when the woman has loose articles of clothing on (short shirt, loose shirt, etc.). 2) Specific things that girls can do/wear/not wear/say to bless you and encourage you in that area: Things that Girls Can Wear: Don’t wear clothes that may provoke or encourage a guy to take a "second look." Just be aware guys are extremely visual. I would almost say, think how visually stimulated you (a woman) is and multiply that 3x or 4x. (At least!) Most men don't have verbal or emotional hooks, regarding kids, marriage, or stuff like that. If I could communicate one point about helping your brothers in Christ it would be this: please don't wear alluring or skin revealing clothes that encourage us to have wandering eyes. I know this is unavoidable at the beach or at a nice dinner formal or something, but other times I often wonder... is that necessary? Things that Girls Can Do: Please be aware if you have loose articles of clothing on and you are sitting next to a man. If you bend over and your shirt comes away from your body and is in view of a guy, this creates the potential for temptation. Some girls are extremely good at having this awareness: they are about to move and some part of my body may be exposed they don't desire to have. When they lean down they put their hand over their shirt, or if they bend over they make sure the back of their shirt is pulled down.


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

My point is it would be helpful if girls would just be aware that most guys know when situations like the above are happening. When a girl bends over or moves when they are sitting next to him, especially if he likes her just a bit, it may be intrinsic – whether most guys want to admit it or not. Girls can help me and other believers by helping to eliminate this temptation before it has time to manifest itself by making sure they keep themselves covered when they sit or stand, or bend over, etc. On another note, as I grow older I realize appearance and body types are not an item I value as much as I did when I was younger (18-19). It is important that I am attracted to the woman, but a woman who loves the Lord by applying scripture to her life and sharing what God has revealed to her in her quiet times is super attractive to me. Girls that smile a lot are attractive too because they reflect God’s joy and happiness that comes from knowing Him. Who doesn't want to be around people that are joyful all the time. :) If there is a woman in the group who feels it necessary to wear tight clothes and the like while being single, to me it is a sign of immaturity in the Lord (which is not attractive for me in the least). My sinfulness may have an opportunity to engage temporarily, but this is not a woman I would ever really consider for marriage. Lastly, and maybe most importantly, please express to the girls that I hope they don't feel like the weight of responsibility is on you as a woman to make sure guys remain pure (if you happen to feel at all like this, which you may not). Living in a sinful world, MEN (that means me!) are responsible for their own sinful actions. If women were to walk around naked all Day, on campus or work, etc., it would still be my and other men's responsibility to control ourselves and treat these women as sisters in Christ. Other men and I accept responsibility before God and you girls for our own actions, whether you inadvertently or advertently induce them. So, the responsibility is always on US, but you CAN make a difference to help us! And I do need all the help I can get. :)

1) Specific things that girls wear/do/say that make it difficult for you to live in purity: Talking about sex or "cute guys," cleavage, form-fitting clothes, tube tops. 2) Specific things that girls can do/wear/not wear/say to bless you and encourage you in that area: You alumni women know the answer to this. It's exactly what you all do. I would like to add that y'all are real smart dressers. 3) Any other thoughts you want to share on this topic are welcome: (We all are, but…) You are the bride of Christ; dress like it!

1) Specific things that girls wear/do/say that make it difficult for you to live in purity: Men are visual creatures, which explains why we enjoy the outdoors and explosions so much: they look very appealing. Especially explosions. Somewhere around the sixth grade we started noticing that you, too, are appealing. Very appealing. Like the exploding outdoors. You don't need to wear something that accentuates anything for us to know you're pretty. You're attractive; we get it. We enjoy it when you're easy on the eyes, which is to say we can look you in yours. 2) Specific things that girls can do/wear/not wear/say to bless you and encourage you in that area:


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

I will just say this: I have never seen a group of women carry themselves with the poise and confidence of our Nav women. The way you dress and relate not only encourages us to live in purity, it glorifies our Father in heaven. What could you do to bless me more? I would personally feel more blessed if you could start packing my lunch. I forgot mine today.

3) Any other thoughts you want to share on this topic are welcome: Concerning a gentle and quiet spirit: All I can say is it's an astounding quality that might sometimes get muddled with submission. Don't be afraid to initiate in conversation. We don't bite. Men should certainly be leaders in non-platonic relationships, but it's kind of different (for me, at least) in the context of friendship. You're not "being too forward" by asking how I'm doing or to please move because I'm standing on your foot. It's a relief to know that I don't have to feel like I'm at the helm of every relationship, and most of the time I'll oblige and get off your foot.

David's Mighty Men of God (2 Samuel 23, 1 Chronicles 11): 1) A man who Fears the Lord Psalm 112 -- Like the Proverbs 31 for men Proverbs 8:13 Luke 7:13-14 -- This path is narrow. Am I willing to do that? 2) A man who is willing to make an investment Proverbs 6:20-26 Proverb 7:24-27 Be Better at initiating Wise Conversations Be More Mindful of Conversation with Who and When 3) There are Emotional Boundaries in Conversations Level 1) Biographical Data (News, weather, sports, general) Level 2) Testimony Level 3) Hopes and Dreams Level 4) Fears Level 5) Deepest Hurts / Struggles Once one stage is met, the previous stages are less satisfying. With each level of intimacy comes a new level of commitment. Frequency is also something to be mindful of. 4) Be Intentional Am I trying to be selfish in this situation? 1 Corinthians 10:31 The problems in this area usually stem from Ignorance Selfishness Disobedience


Yajua Spring 2006 Guided Questions: Spirit/Beauty/Modesty

1) Specific things that girls wear/do/say that make it difficult for you to live in purity: • Shirts that aren’t high enough (showing cleavage). Tank tops are fine if they are layered. • Shirts that show the tummy, unless at the beach. • Bikinis. If at the beach, make sure the top fits or to be extra safe wear a one piece. Never, unless only with girls, wear bathing suit bottoms without shorts over top! • Wearing those little shorts with the “FSU” on the butt is hard. • All thin, wavy fabric in the form of pajama bottom-type material reveal too much (keep the soccer shorts on the field). 2) Specific things that girls can do/wear/not wear/say to bless you and encourage you in that area: • Jeans are fine if not too tight. T-shirts are always fine. • Skirts and dresses are fine as long as they are appropriate (if you are covered and, again, with the bad fabric). If guys are tempted just because you look pretty (and you’re being modest), then don’t stop dressing up or looking nice when you can. Just pray for the guys in their struggle. As long as you are being modest, that’s all you can do. Thank you so much for caring about us!

Have your female friends “check” you to see if anything is revealed when bending or leaning over before you leave the house. Christian women often don’t realize how much Christian guys struggle with this. They think that because they are believers they don’t think about these things. One good experiment to do to see how visual guys really are is to go to a park or sit somewhere on campus where there are a lot of people, and watch how guys react when girls walk by. Watch their eyes and see what they look at.


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