Steve Jobs in 1994: The Rolling Stone Interview

Even at one of the low points in his career, Jobs still had confidence in the limitless potential of personal computing
by: Jeff Goodell

Anne KnudsenILiaison The story of Apple CEO Steve Jobs is one of the most familiar in American business -- shaggy BobDylan-loving kid starts a computer company in a Silicon Valley garage and changes the world. But like any compelling story, it has its dark moments. Before the iPad or the iPhone, Jobs, then the head of the short-lived NeXT Computer, sat down with Rolling Stone's Jeff Goodell. It was 1994, Jobs had long ago been bootedfrom Apple, the internet was still the province of geeks and academics, and the personal computer revolution looked like it might be over. But even at one of the low points in his career, Jobs still had confidence in the limitless potential of personal computing. Read on to get Jobs' prescient take on PDAs and object-oriented software, as well as his relationship with Bill Gates and why he wanted the internet in his den, but not living room. Steve Jobs died of pancreatic cancer at the age of 56 on October 5th, 2011.

Mr. For now. Still. there is no question evolutionary forces will soon reshape the software industry. To put it simply. fur example. Noone disputes the fact that NeXT has a leg up on this new teclmology. He was going to build the next generation of the personal computer. so powerful. Since the Macintosh changed the world 10 years ago with its brilliant point-and-click interface. Software.and Jobs. so insanely great. is trying to lead the way. which needs powerful custom software to help manage huge databases on its networks. ''He has cried revolution one too many times. layering in one line of code after another. like building a skyscraper out of toothpicks. a PC industry newsweekly. I have never seen a revolution as profound as this. in the long flID." This article appeared in the June 16.4 billion company injust eight years. which went from a garage start-up to a $1. a machine so beautiful. and that software is much more reliable. the beneficiary of all this is corporate America. ''In my 20 years in this industry. complex programs to be assembled like Tinkertoys. Revolution himself. NeXT closed down its hardware division last year and laid offmore than 200 employees. there is always a new revolution to hype. But it turns out that Jobs isn't as fur gone as some techno-pundits thought. it will be years before it becomes practical fur small businesses and individual users (decent perfurmance out of NeXTs software on a 486IPentium processor. thus saving an enormous amount of time and money." says Robert Cringely. "Steve is a little like the boy who cried wolt. all the big leaps in computer evolution have been on the hardware side. the Entrepreneur of the Decade (as one magazine anointed him in 1989) tried to do it all again with a new company called NeXT. more complicated and much more expensive to produce. Because these objects will work with a wide range of interfaces and applications. It seemed only a matter of time until the whole thing collapsed and Jobs disappeared into hyperspace. Because of the massive hardware requirements for object-oriented software. Writing a new spreadsheet or word-processing program these days is a tedious process. it will allow gigantic. And to hear it coming from Jobs . it would put Apple to shame. whose . It didn't happen After eight long years of struggle and after running through some $250 million. with characteristic understaterrent. by contrast. Instead of starting from the ground up every time. Machines have gotten smaller. of all people. eventually making it accessible even to fulks without degrees from MIT. This time the Holy Grail is objectoriented programming. The issue is available in the online archive. some have compared the effect it will have on the production of software to the effect the industrial revolution had on manufactured bound to raise some eyebrows. Whatever role Jobs ends up playing. Steve Jobs was supposed to be long gone by now. Object-oriented programming will change that. 1994 issue of Rolling Stone. much easier to maintain and much more powerful. People still listen to him.Like other Phenomena of the '80s. they will also eliminate many of the compatibility problems that plague traditional software. this being Silicon Valley. faster and cheaper." says Jobs. There are big changes coming in software development . After the spectacular rise of Apple. Jobs may very well end up a minor figure rather than the flag-waving leader of the pack he clearly sees himself as. object-oriented software will vastly simplifYthe task of writing programs. but now they're more skeptical" And even if object-oriented software does take off. Unlike most of its competitors. requires 24 megs of RAM and 200 megs on a hard drive). a columnist at Info World. Of course. "You can build software literally five to 10 times faster. has gotten bigger. progrannners will be able to use preassembled chunks to build 80 percent ofa program.

your grandmother's going to have one. he took particu1ar joy in bashing his old rival Bill Gates but avoided discussing other heavyweights by name. A perfect example is the PDA [Personal Digital Assistant] stuff like Apple's Newton I'm not real optimistic about it. Left Bank-poet beard. refined. Friends say the Sturm und Drang of the past few years has humbled Jobs ever so slightly. and on weekends. Trademark Jobsian phrases like "insanely great" or ''the next big thing" were nowhere to be found. Swiss Bank and Chrysler Financial But as the overwhehning success of Microsoft has shown. by all accounts. And that's a hard one sometimes. just about the mid-'90s. Today. Calif." says Esther Dyson. few dare count NeXT out. what's most surprising to you? People say sometimes. I think he's :finally realized that he's mortal. Most of the people who developed these PDAs developed them because they thought individuals were going to buy them and give them to their families. it's a horse race between those three companies. it seems to take a very unique combination of technology. talent. I think I work in one of the slowest. it will have to go up against two powerhouses: Taligent.has breathed new life into NeXT. My friends started General Magic [a new company that hopes to challenge the Newton]. ''Remember. And here we are. But it's about a 10-to-20-year lag. because a lot of the people who are the most creative in this business aren't doing it because they want to help corporate America. and it's kind ofconnnonplace now. and I'll tell you why. just like the rest of us. round John Lennon-style glasses now.the workstation company that was once N eXTs arch rival. and his boyish face is hidden behind a shaggy.object-oriented software is still in the prototype stage. the company with the best product doesn't always win. It's simply because they have a lot of money. ''You work in the fastest-moving industry in the world. A recent $10 million deal with Sun Microsystems . this is a guy who never believed any of the rules applied to him. business and marketing and luck to make significant change in our industry. ''Now. at $1. ''Right now. business tends to be the fueling agent for these changes. in general. That's a long time. During our interview at the NeXT offices in Redwood City. It's been road. NEXTSTEP (NeXT's operating system software) has been out in the real world fur several years. The reason fur that is. They're willing to pay money for things that will save them money or give them new capabilities. It seems to take forever to get anything done. . It hasn't happened that often The other interesting thing is that. 39.tested. For N eXT to succeed. just 20 miles north ofhis old Apple fiefdom. " It's been 10 years since the Macintosh was introduced When you look around at the technological landscape today. he is a devoted family man now. All of the graphical-user interface stuff that we did with the Macintosh was pioneered at Xerox PARC [the company's legendary Palo Alto Research Center] and with Doug Engelbart at SRI [a future-oriented think tank at Stanford] in the mid-'70s. Still. a solid piece of work." one colleague says. Jobs. he can often be seen Rollerblading with his wife and two kids through the streets of Palo Alto. the new partnership of Apple and IBM. Well. and you're going to all send messages. The people who are going to buy them in the first five years are mobile professionals. revised. and Bill Gates and his $4 billion-a-year Microsoft steamroller. They think your kids are going to have these. Converts include McCaw Cellular. He wears small. but it is on1y one step in a very longjourney. seems eager to distance himself from his reputation as the Wunderkind of the '80s.500 a pop with a cellular modem in them." I don't reel that way. I don't think too many people are going to buy three or four for their family. a Silicon Valley marketing guru. and it is.

unfortunately. Well. it was mainly software. And now they are completely lost. Microsoft accomplished both of those goals. Is that the period you're emerging from now? I hope so. most of what I've done in my career has been software. It's amazing that it took Microsoft 10 years to copy something that was a sitting duck. revolutionary changes. It changed maybe 10 percent. The Mac didn't change much for the last 10 years. The problem is. We tried to sell it in a really cool box. The Apple II wasn't much software. and that was all software. but we learned a very important lesson When you ask people to go outside of the mainstream. About 30 percent of American homes have computers. but the Mac was just software in a cool box. but nonetheless. As a matter offact. So there has to be some important reward for taking that risk or else they won't take it What we learned was that the reward can't be one and a halftimes better or twice as good. the psychology of the people who develop these things is just not going to enable them to put on suits and hop on planes and go to Federal Express and pitch their product. Microsoft has had two goals in the last 10 years. the applications business. I think that the leap that we've made is at least five years ahead of anybody. Is the PC revolution over? No. What happened with the Mac was . I was involved in PostScript and the formation of Adobe. And what we've done with NEXTSTEP is really all software. Businesses are wired Video-game machines are rapidly becoming as powerful as PCs and in the near future will be able to do everything that traditional desktop computers can do. They're much more stressful emotionally. But you can do it in software. Let's talk about the evolution ofthe PC. and I've recently been there again.basically. To make step. but I think that the PC revolution is fur from over. You're lucky if you can do one that's one and a third times better or one and a halftimes better. doesn't deserve too much sympathy. they take a risk. And then it's only six months before everybody else catches up.well. They invested hundreds and hundreds of millions of dollars into R&D. I don't know exactly what you mean by your question. The reward has to be like three or four or five times better to take the risk to jmnp out of the mainstream. One was to copy the Mac. Too many people know how to do it. it takes that combination of technical acumen and business and marketing . and I've done that sort of thing in my life. And over the course of the last 10 years. and the other was to copy Lotus' success in the spreadsheet . And you usually go through a period where everybody tells you that you've completely failed. I don't know why.fimction changes. but I've always been attracted to the more revolutionary changes. They were able to copy the Mac because the Mac was frozen in time. Because they're harder. first I should tell you my theory about Microsoft. We had to build the box because the software wouldn't run on any other box. in hardware you can't build a computer that's twice as good as anyone else's anymore. I have a great respect for incremental improvement. but very little came out They produced almost no new innovation since the original Mac itself .and a cuhure that can somehow match up the reason you developed your product and the reason people will want to buy it. As you know. That's not enough.And the problem is. Apple. I've been there before. It was a sitting duck.

And so. Windows is the worst development environment ever made. You can't go buy an application to run your hospital. there are tens of millions of computers that work like that. Business has focused on shrink-wrapped software on the PCs. five people. MCl's Friends and Family is the most successful business promotion done in the last decade measured in dollars and cents. If you look at the goal of the '90s . What I mean by that accounting. when a company has a new product. And Microsoft doesn't have any interest in making it better.the largest cel1u1arprovider in the world. And they can afford to have 200 people working on a project.well. a sales channel and a custom app to implement the product.So now. Why didn't they? They're obviously smart guys. In addition to that. with no human intervention. the original genes of the Macintosh have populated the earth. You can't have small teams of programmers writing word processors and spreadsheets . your phone works on the entire McCaw network. what's next? And what's going to keep driving this PC revohrtion? If you look at the goal of the '80s. Now it takes five minutes. all the really creative people who like to work in small teams of three. it doesn't have the new product or contracting dramatically. but nevertheless. and it's going to be driven by custom software for business. The phone dealer just runs these custom apps. and that's why PCs haven't really touched the heart of the business. And now they want to bring them into the heart of the business. four. But as business is getting nruch more sophisticated and consumers are expecting more and more.if you look at even the shrink-wrap business . it consists of only three things: an idea. runs the whole front end of their business on NEXTSTEP now. they've all been squeezed out of that business. They don't exist. if you look at the personal computer. As you may know. you have to customize them so nruch that they're really custom apps by the time you get through with them These custom applications really used to just be in the back office . these custom apps have invaded the front office. Now. And that could be answered with shrinkwrapped applications [off-the-shelf software]. They're giving PCs with custom apps to the phone dealers so that when you buy a cel1u1arphone. it used to take you a day and a half to get you up on the network. I'll give you an example. Without the custom app. it's going from being a tool of computation to a tool of comrmmication. For example. and in a minute and a half. because the fact that its really hard to develop apps in Windows plays to Microsoft's advantage. They didn't because they couldn't create a custom app to run a new billing system So how does this connect with the next generation of the PC? I believe the next generation of the PC is going to be driven by nruch more advanced software. The question is. AT&T did not respond to that for 18 months. Ninety percent in the form of Windows. McCaw Cel1u1ar. Or if they do. They buy them to run applications that automate the heart of their company. It cost them billions of dollars. it was really individual productivity. manufacturing. It's going from individual productivity to organizational productivity and also operational productivity. And that's great. no problem . and everyone is going to have to run custom apps alongside their shrink-wrapped apps because that's how the enterprise is going to get their competitive advantage in things. the applications business right now . It now takes 100 to 200 people one to two years just to do a major revision to a word processor or spreadsheet. to do derivatives commodities trading or to run your phone network. The company doesn't implement the product by hand anymore or service it by hand. And they don't buy these applications shrink-wrapped. the market for mainframe and minicomputers is still as large as the PC market And people don't buy those things to run shrink-wrapped spreadsheets and word processors might upset their competitive advantage. they're networked back to a server in Seattle.

whereas corporations are. but I don't think rational people could argue that every computer would work this way someday. with objects. The consumer is not going to see the benefits until after business sees them and we begin to get this stuff into volume. it was so obvious that every computer would work this way someday. No question about it. and there's a lot of money in there to fuel the development of this object industry. life is always a little more complicated than it appears to be. And everyone will benefit from that I visited Xerox PARC in 1979. We don't have to spend money educating them about the problem . But when people think of Steve Jobs. All software will be written using this object technology someday. or cost them so much money if they miss it. "Can you get my clothes laundered. some of it wasn't even right. Now. Corporate America has a need that is so huge and can save them so much money. They don't know any better. Because unfortunately. people are not rebelling against Microsoft. you interact with them at a very high level of abstraction. Literally can blow it away." I happen to know where the best laundry place in San . That visit's been written about . with every bone in my body. I remember being shown their rudimentary graphical-user interface. Here's an example: IfI'm your laundry object. They have a giant need. please.they know they have a problem There's a giant vacuum sucking us in there. The PC market has done less and less to serve their growing needs. literally three people in a garage can blow away what 200 people at Microsoft can do. you could argue about who the winners and losers in terms of companies in the industry might be. So it takes both. What's going to fuel the object revohrtion is not the was a very important visit. you can argue who the winners and losers are going to be in terms of the companies in this industry.not to corporate America. when I was at Apple. Would you explain. and they know it. or make them so much money. but the germ of the idea was there. I feel the same way about objects. breathing things that have knowledge inside them about how to do things and have memory inside them so they can remember things. And within 10 minutes. that they are going to fuel the object revohrtion That may be so. Well. What drove the success of the Apple IIfur many years and let consumers have the benefit of that product was Visi-Calc selling into corporate America. They're living. And rather than interacting with them at a very low level. You can argue about how many years it's going to take. like we're doing right here. You knew it with every bone in your body. Corporate America was buying Apple lIs and running Visi-Calc on them like crazy so that we could get our volumes up and our prices down and sell that as a consumer product on Mondays and Wednesdays and Fridays while selling it to business on Tuesdays and Thursdays. They're not sitting around thinking that they have a giant problem that needs to be solved . you could argue about the number of years it would take. you can give me your dirty clothes and send me a message that says.With our technology. We were giving away Macintoshes to higher ed while we were selling them fur a nice profit to corporate America. It was incomplete. exactly what object-oriented software is? Objects are like people. in simple tenns. but I don't think a rational person can argue that all software will not be built this way. they think of the man whose mission was to bring technology to the masses .

And it needs an alternative to Microsoft in the applications area . that's just what they did. I go get your clothes laundered.. ''Here are your clean clothes. I don't think that's the real issue. And the only hope we have fur that. you don't have dollars in your pocket.Francisco is. I'm sure they're working on it Microsoft's greatest asset is Windows. So I go out and hail a taxicab and tell the driver to take me to this place in San Francisco. the issue is not whether they accomplished what they did within the rule book or by breaking some of the rules. But they got quite a bit more sophisticated and started to irmovate -look at automobiles. because I see Microsoft competing very fiercely and putting a lot of companies out of business ." You have no idea how I did that. well. It's not my goal anyway. Windows is so nonobject-oriented that it's going to be impossible for them to go back and become object-oriented without throwing Windows away. is working on their own object-oriented operating system- They were working on the Mac for 10 years. And a lot of people who don't want to think about it too much are just going to buy their product.. And you didn't have to know any of it.and indeed. Yet I knew how to do all of that. America is leading the world in software technology right now.some deservedly so and others not deservedly so. an agent fur coming up with the next revolution. If you say. How do you feel about the fact that Bill Gates has essentially achieved dominance in the software industry with what amounts to your vision of how personal computers should work? I don't really know what that all means. for example. I don't like to get into discussions about whether they accomplished that fairly or not That's for others to decide. and it's not going to work. What I believe very strongly is that the industry absoh. how do you feel about Bill Gates getting rich off some of the ideas that we had . and you can't even hail a taxi You can't pay fur one. Maybe you speak French. But I don't think it matters. Microsoft. and I have dollars in my pockets. What exactly do you mean by that? They're the mainstream. is NeXT. And I become very concerned. too. used to be accused of just copying . You've called Microsoft the IBM of the '90s. the goal is not to be the richest man in the cemetery. I get back here. in my opinion. in the beginning. well. They encapsulate complexity. I just observe it and say it's not heahhy fur the country. and they can't do that fur years. And I see a lot of irmovation leaving this industry.which I hope will be Lotus. So they're going to try to patch things on top.l1:ely needs an alternative to Microsoft. I give you your clean clothes and say. You have no knowledge of the laundry place. I can't say the same thing about Microsoft. The real issue is. What do you think of the federal antitrust investigation? I don't have enough data to know. and we were able to interact at a very high level of abstraction That's what objects are. you know. And we also need an alternative to Microsoft in the systems-software area. The thing I don't think is good is that I don't believe Microsoft has transformed itself into an agent fur improving things. And again. and that is . I jump back in the cab. and the interfaces to that complexity are high level You brought up Microsoft earlier. they certainly irmovated quite a bit there. All that complexity was hidden inside of me. Their greatest liability is Windows. of course. The Japanese. They have a market dominance now that is so great that it's actually hurting the industry. And I speak English. I'm not qualified to say.

a $9 billion company. Do you see parallels here. Apple's.such a valuable asset for this country that anything that potentially threatens that leadership needs to be examined.a systems-software company. The two golden boys of the computer revolution I think Bill and I have very different value systems. Would I be happy if we had a 10 percent market share of the system-software business? I'd be happy now. the Mac was a niche product And yet look at what it did. the great evil is Microsoft. Will it ever be? No. What about the PowerPC? It works fine. That's not important. And instead of Apple that will save us. What's your personal relationship with Bill Gates like? I think Bill Gates is a good guy. I think the Microsoft monopoly of both sectors of the software industry . Which was where the Motorola 68000 architecture was unfortunately being relegated. too? Yeah. Hearing you talk like this makes me flash back to the old Apple days. That's good. The PowerPC and the Pentium are equivalent. I'd be very happy. plus or minus 10 or 20 percent. When you look at the company you founded now.. I like Bill very much. But it beats being behind. A lot of people believe that given the stranglehold Microsoft has on the software business. We're not best friends. instead ofIBM. when Apple cast itself in the role of the rebel against the establishment. You can't open the paper these days without reading about the Internet and the information superhighway. I do. I see tremendous parallels between the solidity and dominance that IBM had and the shackles that that was imposing on our industry and what Microsoft is doing today . Except going to pose the greatest threat to Americas dominance in the software industry of anything I have ever seen and could ever think of I personally believe that it would be in the best interest of the country to break Microsoft up into three companies . the best N eXT can hope for is that it will be a niche product. What's important is. what do you think? I don't want to talk about Apple. Forget about me. but the companies we built were very different from each other. You mentioned the Apple earlier. It's a Pentium.. it's NeXT. It was $2 billion when I left They're doing 0 K. in the long run. A lot has been made of the rivalry between you two. Then I'd go work like crazy to get 20. It keeps them at least equal. what. So Apple has a Pentium. I think we came closer than we think to losing some of our computer industry in the late '70s and early '80s. which is the consumer set-top-box sector . and I think the gradual dissolution ofIBM has been the healthiest thing that's happened in this industry in the last 10 years. Where is this all going? . Is it three or four or five times better? No. an applications-software company and a consumer-software company.both the system and the applications software and the potential third sector that they want to monopolize. and I certainly admire his accomplishments. depending on which day you measure them They're the same thing. Apple's a niche product. but it's not a compelling advantage.. but we talk maybe once a month.

And that's about as close as you can get. sure. Teclmology is nothing. how it can change their lives. they have no idea how di:fficuhthis is going to be and how long it is going to take.not just the marketplace ofconnnerce but the marketplace of ideas. And I love it. Phone companies. Yeah. they'll do wonderful things with them It's not the tools that you have faith in . We've given individuals and small groups equally powerful tools to what the largest.. but you can feel the direction that we're going. I'm not very excited about that.. They work. I'm not excited about home shopping. in general. What's important is that you have a faith in people. It's been 10 years since the PC revolution started Rational people can debate about whether technology has made the world a better place The world's clearly a better place. Let's talk more about the Internet. That's how I think of myself I want to build really good tools that I know in my gut and my heart will be valuable. say. And then whatever happens is. I'm interested in bearing your ideas. It's not a faith in teclmology. you can't really predict exactly what will happen. I'm still optimistic I mean. Individuals can now do things that only large groups of people with lots of money could do before. Who do you think will be the winners and losers. It has been happening for 10 years. All that's going to do is put the video rental stores out of business and save me a trip to rent my are just tools.The Internet is nothing new. Finally. they're going to have to come up with some very sophisticated software. I'm very excited about having the Internet in my den. It's faith in people. they have no idea what they're doing here. that they're basically good and smart. You name it. or they don't work. You can open up any book and hear all about this kind of garbage. They don't understand that that's a little computer that they're going to have in the set-top box. and believe me. cable companies and Hollywood are jumping all over each other trying to get a piece of the action. Nevertheless. How is this new communications web going to affect the way we live in the future? I don't think it's too good to talk about these kinds of things. Then you just stand back and get out of the way. None of these guys understands computer science. And the people who are talking the loudest know the least Who are you referring to -John Malone? I don't want to name names. I'm a tool builder. Every month. The marketplace of publications. the marketplace of public policy. and these things take on a life of their own. sure. you've often talked about how technology can empower people. it's growing by leaps and bounds. most heavily fimded organizations in the world have. the wave is cresting on the general computer user. I get pessimistic sometimes but not for long. we have much more opportunity for people to get to the marketplace . I think the den is far more interesting than the living room Putting the Internet into people's houses is going to be really what the information superhighway is all about. and if you give them tools. Do you still have as much faith in technology today as you did when you started out 20 years ago? Oh. Let me just say that. It's people you have faith in or not. What that means is. I don't think of the world that way. not digital convergence in the set-top box. now. and in order to f1ID that computer. five years down the road? I've talked to some of these guys in the phone and cable business. And that trend is going to . Explain that.

you go crazy. and you might remember that romance. But then that teaches you not to take the really great ones too personally either. who at 25 did his best work. you said that the goal is not to be the richest guy in the cemetery. but then the whole day is in front of you to do something wonderful with. You can buy for under $10. we have flattened out again the difference between the lone voice and the very large organized voice. On that the other side is a world so rich from this well of software that will spring up that the true promise of many of the things we started.] I don't know. It's not me. and it's all downhill from there. But now. I don't want to talk about this kind of stuff Why? I think. and you feel good about it. Because the Macintosh was the agent of change to bring computers to the rest of us with its graphical-user interface. By creating this electronic web. In the broadest context. too. You read some negative article some idiot writes about you .. and they write about symbols. the goal is to seek enlightenment . especially when one is somewhat in the public eye. And when you open the window. What is the goal? I don't know how to answer you. actually. I don't know. Objects are going to 1. as one anyone in the world can get their hands on The second thing that we've done is the communications side of it. You'll still smell that romance every morning when you get up. even with the Apple II. I'm very flattered by that. [Laughs. But these are private things.D11ock one. I talked to some of the original Mac designers the other day. But now the industry is up against a really big closed door.continue. just can't take it too personally.known twin brother. that Related .000 today a computer that is just as powerful. And I don't think it's anywhere near over. That was very important. People like symbols. We have a110wed people who are not part of an organization to communicate and pool their interests and thoughts and energies together and start to act as if they were a virtual organization So I think this technology has been extremely rewarding. will finally start to be realized. Because otherwise. The Macintosh was sort of like this wonderful romance in your life that you once had . who knows? Maybe there's another locked door behind this door. After that . When you were talking about Bill Gates. your life has moved on You get up every morning. the pressure to repeat the phenomenal success of the Mac? Some people have compared you to Orson Welles.D11ock door. In a way it will never be over in your life. You didn't want to participate in that. Are you uncomfortable with your status as a celebrity in Silicon Valley? I think of it as my well. And nothing will ever make you feel bad about it.however you define it. Has it been a burden. But I also think that what we're now may turn out in the end to be more profound. and you'll smell that romance in the air.and that produced about 10 million children. and they mentioned the lO-yearannniversary celebration ofthe Mac a few months ago. the cool air will hit your face.. I wonder what game show I'm going to be on Guess I'm going to have to start eating a lot of pie. it's very important to keep a private life. But someone else is going to have to figure out how to 1. And you'll see your children around.

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