.

,
.
I'
maybe one or two other individuals.
e1r. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
Ah-hum -- I have a few more, but go ahead.
All done in the same category.
Mr. Buckley: Are they? What category is Mr. Reisman in?
Mr. Alinsky: Oh, that's an interesting category -- sort of a new research procedure, where
you do not contact the. person you are doing research bn. You do not go into the projects.
You do not talk to anyone associated with them. And you then come up with some statements
which are so far removed from the fact, that even my bitter critics are too embarrassed
to use those statements.
Mr. Buckley: Except me. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: Well, .you haven't used them. You've just made a comment on it. I made a
statement -- I refuse to debate with him, which only came up recently on the program --
as a matter of fact, in New York City. And I made the remark that any time I see any of
battle
his stuff, it sort of makes me feel like a grizzled bell-scarred dog going down the street
'way back -- say, six blocks back or so -- this little whining Pekingese comes out
sniffing, yipping and licking and growling at my leavings. And I'm not going to waste any
time turning around.
Mr. Buckley: You're not very nice to your critics, are you? (Laughter) But I gather you
resent it when they're not very nice to you. You called Sargent Shriver a political porno-
grapher.(Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: No, I didn't call him that.
Mr. Buckley: Yes, you did. Unless you were misC].uoted.
Mr. Alinsky: No, no, I wasn't -- you're misC].uoting me at this moment.
Mr. Buckley: Well, I don't -- not intentionally --
Mr. Alinsky: Oh, I know that.
Mr. Buckley: I'm C].uoting words assigned to you by \I Harper' Sll magazi19.e.
Mr. Alinsky:
eMr. Buckley:
Nr. Alinsky:
No, I said that the Poverty Program was a prize piece of political pornography.
Okay.
Now, do you want --
Mr. Buckley:
(Laughing) You take it from there. (IJaughter)
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
", -00;
.
"
Mr. Alinsky: Well, you take it (blurred) -- from there. 3.
e:lr. Buckley: Well, somebody has to wri te For every" Fanny Hill," there's
a guy who wrote it.
Mr. Alinsky: Well, what I meant by that on the Poverty Program was it was a Federal welfare
program -- which, in fact, it is. Instead of being billed as a War on Poverty, and if it
didn't come out with all these sanctimonious, hypocritical, moralistic trappings and --
it wasn't "Harper's' but the reaction when I call it political pornography is -- let's put
it this way: I don't object to a minister or any religious representative getting up on the
altar and giving a sermon against adultery, because I think that's part of his racket, and
I think everybody sitting thel'e asswnes that. But when all the time you know that he has
been playing (1) with the organist (Mr. Bucluey cut in on this last line).
Mr. Buckley: Why do you say racket -- is this part of your racket to fight poverty? Are
you using racket in an invidious way?
Mr. Alinsky: No, no, I'm not.
.vlr. Bucluey: I see -- part of his profession.
Mr. Alinsl{,Y: Part of his profession.
Mr. Buckley: Part of his belief. Part of his ideals.
Mr. Alinsl{,Y: That's right.
Mr. Buckley: Go ahead, sorry. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: You know exactly what I'm talking about. (Laughing)
Mr. Buckley: No, I want to be qUite sure because a lot of people say that you are pretty
anti-Christian, anti-dogma, and so on and so
Mr. Alinsky: Anti-Christian?
Mr. Buckley: That's what --
Mr. Alinsky: No, they don't call me anti-Christian. They say I'm sub-Christian. (Laughter).
Mr. Buckley: Wehll -- this is the editor of the "Living magazine: I heard Mr.
eAlinsky speak at the Convention -- I had been told that he scoffs and at Christianity.
I came, I saw, I heard, and I concur. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: Well, er -_
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
Mr. Buckley: He didn't call you a sub-Christian. It would be very unChristian to call 4.
a sub-Christian in any case, vlouldn't it'? (Laughter)
Mr. lUinsl\Y: Yes, but that's part of the practice of many of those so-called practit,ioners.
No, I'm not -- certainly not anti-Christian on those -- there ...re :mo..ny others that, you know,
quote the other But, I raise these shall I say, critical cormnent.s -- with those vlho
profess to be practising. I -- I get an emot.ional hang-up on hypocrisy. I don't mind sharp
disagreements on policies and differences of opinions and programs, but it's when you get
hypocrisy seasoned with sanctimoniousness, then I start saying, yeah -- you kno\V.
Mr. Buckley: Well, don't you think that's true of everybody? \'lho likes hypocrites? Do you
kno\V anybody who likes hypocrites?
J
1
I
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. JUinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
41'. Alinsl\Y:
(Pause and sigh) Yeah, I see them around. At least they don't call them --
don It go out of their way to criticize them.
Yeah, they don't say you're being a hypocrite.
Yeah.
I would like to make two corrections on your --
Mr. Buckley: Yes sir.
Mr. Alinsky: -- on your introduction. One is, we donlt charge any fee, let alone a modest
fee for any services.
Nr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsl\y:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
I read the figure $100,000 from Hochester.
'I'hat I S right, I.mt thOse fund:.:> are spent right in the corrununity.
I assume so, yeah.
As far as my salary, or as far as the foundation oper--
Marshall Field pays that.
Oh, no, Field hasn't paid anything since -- he died about fifteen
that one. But er --
years ago.
Mr. Buckley: Oh, the old Marshall Field.
Mr ••\linsky: The old Marshall Field.
\..;'
Mr. Buckley: Marshall Ji'ields never die. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: Well, that in fact will be YOtu' hang-up. (Laughter) II m not going to get into
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Buckley: You have to make a living, obviously. And you should.
V. Well, we make our own -- we're like Sherman's AJ.'my -- we live off the Jand
-- that's the price of our independence. We don't get foundation grants on it. We have
teaching institutes in terms of money -- major religious denominations. And there's an
intensive university lecturing schedule across the country and consultations with various
groups in different cities that we are not operating but who want to know how to organize.
But it's on that basis that our funds are raised. The funds that are charged, say in
Rochester, or Kansas City or Chicago, are spent in that conununity for organization.
Mr. Buckley: Hell, I think that you've touched on a point that's extremely interesting I
would like to develop because you do have fascinating general notions. For instance, you said
1
1
11 steal before I'll take charity.
Mr. Yeah.
Mr. Buckley: Now, suppose I'm the person you're going to steal it from --- would you con-
suIt my feelings if' I were to say to you, before stealing from me -- please, won't you just
Vke it? Or is it the act of stealing that gives you the satisfaction that you require'?
Mr. Oh, of cour::>e not. You know better than that. It isn't the act of stealing.
(Next of his remark blurred in overlap).
Mr. Buckley: Well, then it is charity -- "hy don't you take charity then'(
Mr. Well, you know what I meant by charity -- just going to, getting vlelfure hand-
outs and --
Mr. Buckley: Welfare handouts are the products (?) in overlap) of philanthropy.
Your difficulty, it seems to me, is that you may be premature --
Mr. Well, you may not have contradictions. Of' course, I have -- life itself
is just a constellation of --
Mr. Bucluey: Now, I think you're very cynical. I don't think you think you are. But you are.
You really assume the way --
Announcer; We'll interrupt briefly and then return to the points at issue.
Buckley: (Continuing, but barely audible during announcement) pretty much the
way a blind man does about sex (inaudible) p.leasure for it, it's associated with the
act of rape. You feel SQV'fofd you certain, certain
-- little verbalistic No, I think you're going off into a
u6ufructs of life, and .that, the.re1'ore, you .must either take it from somebody you
Isn't that the meaning of your: (blurred) will not permit that society to give it to you•
.\....1
Mr. (Breaking in)
vortex on this business on this point. vJhen I talk about power, I'm using it l:>trict1y as
I
I
J
1
j
I
'I
1
j
j
'1

i
defined in Webster's Unabridged as the ability to act. I'm saying that a people do not
get power except vThen they take it. When they'l'e strong enough so that the other side
gives it Lip. Or at least gives up i{hat would be a compromise arrangement. Compromise, to
me is not a dirty word; if I had to define the whole democratic process in one word, I
would use that word. As far as the little example you gave -- it's just so academic.
In the first place, if v1e're going to steal anything from somebody,he isn't going to be
around to say to you, wbydon't --
Mr. Buckley: Sometimes they It happens every day in New York. (Laughter)
Mr. A1insky: I read your co1unm on that one.
Mr. Buckley: Okay. You say', y-our money -- you know, your money or your life. Jack Benny
I
I
I
\

i
1
j
I
I
vays, Well, I'll have to think it over. (Laughter) But, they're often uround -- in effect
you have that -- call it choice (last very unclear). But you do have a feeling -' you
just said a moment ago now that you said that you only get power if you. wrest it from somebod
Mr. Alinsky: Yeah, well
--
let's
--
You only get power as a reaction to a threat. I think --
Mr. Buckley: fl'hat's not
--,
r-1r. Alinsky: Oh, of course it is.
Mr. Buckley: Suppose everybody in this room decided to nominate you as our leader. You
would then have power over us. Does that mean that you wrested it from us?
Mr. i'J..insky: If everybody in this room decided to nominate me as their leader, I wouldn't
have any power to do anything.
Mr. Buckley: (unintelligible) Why wouldn't you - why wouldn't you if we pledge
our allegiance to you,
some
Mr. I'd have a bunch of kids and you. While your columns might be of/help for a
Vhile --
Mr. Buckley: No b t
, 1.1 suppose __
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. fUinslcy:
1
I U-1r. Buckley:
i
'(.
No, I'm 1001<::Lng ut it very pragmatically.
Now, suppose you were j.n a position to deplpy us in any "lay that you chose,
we having to decide to give you that power, why haven't we actually vouchsafed you some-
thing.
Mr. lUinsky: In the first place, I have never tal\:en that kind of pOl·ler.
your philosophY here. I find it difficult to do.
Mr. Alinsky: Well, do you want to understand nw philosophY?
I
1
1
I
Mr. Buckley: That's a different that's not a relevant ansVler. I'm trying to unders tcmd
Mr. Buckley: Desperately. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: You do? Well, can you sort of be desvel'ately silent fOl' about one minute or
two minutes. lUl right, I'll go with you on it.
Mr. Buckley: Three.
Mr. Alinsky: 'l'hree. lUl right. As far as I'm concerned, living in the \wrld as it is,
you don't have the choice of Vlhat's best.
'-Sf alternatives. 'On that basis I will
l!.very judgment that is made is made on the basis
I find myself totally cOlmnitted to a free and
in terms of my OI'1n acceptance and understanding of our political situation -- I find myself
very much in agreement vIi til the thinking of the early Revolutionary leaders. I'.n thinking
of men like Madison, Jay, Halnilton, et cetera, who I think were extraordinarily politically
sophisticated and very well read and very thoughtful in terms of the implications of their
actions and very much aware of the fact th -- of the world they were living in,.wa8 not --
and they weren't getting it mixed up with the world as they would like it to be. But that
'"
this was a jump-off point that they vlex'e heading towards -- the f'ui!ure v ~ e r e mankind could
'1 always be improving or living a happier life full of potentials for -- you find yourself
'rifting into cliches here -- for achieving his. own dignity, fr'eedom, e<a.uali ty, et cetera.
V
Nov" the one thing that they were concerned ttl)out in this kind of a life is that vlhile things
would always be changing, that, busically, wlli.vtever future there \-lUS to -- the future of an
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
8.
open society, it rested in the fact of having as people involved as citizens being
to act as citizens, able to have po,.,el'. Er
Mr. Bucluey: Freedom is participation in pm'TeX', I agree.
Vir. Alinsky: JUI right. And that if we ever ran into a situation in this country vThere
a large sector of our population was disenfranchised politically and economically, et cetera
-- I'm not talking about equality in terms of e<1ual income or anything else of that sort --
but if \'10 ever ran into that kind of situation that it would very vTel1 become malignant and
bring down the hopes for the future. As a matter of fact, deTocquille makes the same point
in his speculations of this new way of life. Now, what is involved here, and I have to an-
swer you on tvlO levels here: One is a 'commi ttment to the kind of -- the combination of
circwnstances, 8Ba in those sectors of our society that are disenfranchised vThereby through
organization, which is really a synonym for authority to act in this world. The only reason
people every organize, in fact, in order to be able to put things into practice ideas that
they have in order to belong, in order to have the power to be part of the --
V
Mr. Bucluey: To maximize their leverage, yeah.
.. Mr. Alinslq: Yeah. Or to get leverage to even begin one where they don't hcwe any.
j
j Mr. Buckley: You've got lever'age if you can vote. (Next blurred in overlap).
Mr. JUinslq: Yeah, but there are large sectors of our population that weren't even able to
vote'.
Mr. Buckley: A;'e you talking about Hochester?
Mr. lUinsl\:y: No, I'm tulking about Mississippi. 1' m talking about the South. I'm talldng
a'bout the vThole basis in many sector's of this country in terms of the civil righ"':s revolution.
Er -- you have to have that. You even huve to have it -- if I might digr'ess for a moment --
on a (unclear word) situation -- let's say, people are organizadi. You do not have that
j that complex that -- call it political' complex -- complex, I'm usil).g political strictly in
the Greek sense here, ',.,hereby through getting together, through having a convention, through
lc.wing un election of offic(jrs, ac;reement on policies, and so forth, that they can turn to
V
other sectors of society, and say: here arc u,tr these are the men for you
to deal with in the dowocl'atic give and take L,ndhaulinc; decislou-maklng, et cetera. Hithout
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
this, which I think is a primary element in the democratic mix, the ",hole democratic 9.
society begins to founder. Let's take Detroit, right after the riots that occur:ced. Let's
V
assume that the pov,ers that be,deciding as they did decide when they got together af'ter-
wards, we've got to deal "lith the representatives of the Black ghettoes. They turn to
the Black ghettoes and say send us a representative. vlho's gonna come forth'? Unless a
people are organized, you don't have that combirrt;ion "'hich .E:oduces legitimate, bona f;ide
REPRE8 representation.
Mr. Buckley: Why, sure. And in Chicago, they also dealt ",ith Capones, as you know, having
been very close to that situation. I -- your relationship, I hasten to say, was platonic,
but, you know
Mr. Alinsky: It was non-participating.
Mr. Buckley: That's right. And -- (Fades out at break by Announcer)
lmnouncel': He'll rejoin our debate after this brief pause.
Hr. Buckley: (Still inaudible during announcement)
vI'. f.J.insky: (Also blurred out) -- platonic -- let's not --
that's -- that's a social truism.
you have to deal through spokesmen if you wo.nt to deal with nwnbers -- numbers of people,
Mr. BuclCLey: Yeah. The er -- nevcrtheles:j you observed u.nd -- and it is quite true that
Mr. Alinsl\Y: It's been the case since 1840. 'rhe other point that comes in
I would be interested in your reactions
in which
.,.j 1>1.1'. Buckley: Whu.t happened in 10407
had
Mr. Alinsky: We Rl'iVe too many people around to keep going on the town hall basis -- except
out on the western frontiers.
Mr. BuclCLey: ll..h-huh.
Hr. A1insky: The other thing that I would like to bring up here is when you push me on
reasons why, you are really asking me -- and this is the kind of' thing a guy like Beisman
and a number of these political illiterates are always coming up with as far as -- I'm
\.....being very kind -- (Laughter) and it's quite a strain (Mr. Buckley laughs) -- ",ith refer-
ence to where you going, ",hat's your ideologj.
Mr. Buckley: Uh-hmm.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
10.
Mr. Alinsky: Well, the ideology and the organizer in a free society, for a free so-
l presents some real hang-ups on it. I'd be interested in your reactions on it
..
because an ideology -- to begin with, to have an ideology, you've got to have possession
of' a prime truth. Now, a Marxist starts off, he's got possession of a prime truth: (1).
Prime Truth -- All problems that we have in our society are due to the exploitation of
the proletariat by the capitalist. 80 then the ideology begins. You come to stage
(2) _. obviously, you get rid of the capitalist. Since they will not voluntarily alidicate
cooperate and abdicate, you have what as known as a revolution. Stage (3) Dictatorship
of the proletariat -- reorganizing society. stage (l4-) Paradise on earth - COiJununism.
get up there and
Any good Catholic Jesuit can/give you the Catholic ideology. You start of'f with the
Prime Truth (1) The acceptance of the rrrinity of Christ --
Mr. Buckley: Uh-hm.
Mr. Alinsky: And you leave from there on. My problem and the problem of any organizer in
J
I
J
a free society for an open society is (1) r1e doesn't have a prime truth -- truth is relative
V
and changing, and not having that prime truth to begin vlith -- not having the reason for
all the illnesses, such as a Harxist has, doesnI t have the formula or the prescript.x:m to the
answers. All we can do in this situation is to simply assume one article of faith, and
that is, if the people have power as that they will meet each particular crisis
and each particular iss\.:1.e as it comes along. And you cannot predict what they're going
to be. So that you don't have a neat,packaged political prescription.
Mr. Buckley: Well, I'm not asking you for a neat, paclmged poli tical I rejoice that
you don't have one. I tend, like you, to distrust those vlho do. I'm talking about,
of course, temporal rather than spirituCll matters, though I think vTe should at least
acknowledge that you begln,for instance,by believing that the democratic way tends to
any of
make more sense of/the visible alternatives --
Mr. Alinsky: '1'hat's right.
v
Mr. Bucluey: -- a proposition with which I happen to agree, though I hope you won't how
call me an ideologist in the sense th;at you have been cond0rnning Ideologists fo:c that
to
reason. But, I think ,.,hat's most interest.i:lg about yourself -- at leastjmost people --
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
is this distinctiveeppeal that you have to certain types of people who recognize

is a problem of the poor. You appeal to some of them because you have this disdain
for wel-fare-ism (tilT. Buckley draws this out) as suggested by tl:d ultimatum of yours that
you'd rather steal than receive welfare. Now, this appeals to a lot of people soft of'
11.
Conservative-minded, who are against welfare because they do believe that there is going on
in this country a sort of' institutionalization of welfare that "lye ought to g;t out 01' it
and that to be essentially hmnan, you've got to make your own way. So you appeal to them.
On the other hand, you appeal -- they would be Conservative in a way -- you appeal also to
Liberals and radicals because yours is a highly non-rhetorical approach. You actually want
to organize the poor, and you want to cause them to demand things. And you seem to be
u·tterly either unconscious or, if not unconscious, at least insensible to the normal
niceties of approach. 1n1en you want something -- you simply want it.
Mr. Alinsl\y: It it.
Mr. Buckley: Hell, vlhen you see that they want it, yeah. Now, for instance, you were per';'
\.Ifectly prepared, as I understand it, to close dO"l{ll City Hall a while ago in Chicago --
just sent after of people there just to close it down. Malee it impossible for
the Mayor to go in, the Mayor to go out. Or the Sheriff to go in or the Sheriff to go out.
And -- (blurred in overlap)
Mr. Alinsky: I've been involved in so many of these things, I'm trying to remember --
Mr. Bucluey: That was Hoodlavffi -- .Woodlawn, yeah. And you arc perfectly prepared to
cause a tremendous cUUOW1t of cOlmnotion out in the suburban areas where landlords live so
as to force the neighbors, as you put it -- to put pressure on the delinquent
landlords to make those refonns and show (Blurred in overlap).
Mr. Alinsky: (Unclear in overlap) was pure (?) -- those people only do the right
things for the wrong reasons. lffid I wanted to get the vn1ite neighbors to put the pressure
on their white slwn landlord in order to get rid of the Negro pickets that were in the
cOlmUunity. They vleren' t doing it for equality.
Buckley: Yeah. Once again, it seems to me that you obtrude into the discussion
your own central cynicism.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Alinsky: That's not cynicism, that's realism.
12.
Mr. Buckley: 0 come on ... - a lot of people do things they don't want to do at all,
and they do them simply because they think it's the right thing to de. I'll in-
traduce you to some if you like later on.
Mr. Alinsky: Are they all Conservatives?
Mr. Buckley: They're of every stripe, lot of them are Liberals, some of them are
radicals. Some of them are Communists. But you -- you say, for instance, and I think
this 1.>e -- at least it's the most interesting thing I've ever seen you say. My
ovm reaction to it was most interesting. You say, I've been asked why I never talked
to a Catholic priest or a Protestant minister or a rabbi in terms of the Judeo-
Christian ethic or the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount. I never talk
in those instead I approach them on the basis of their o,vn self-interest,
the vTelfare of their church, even its physical property. And you go on to say,
the most importantlesson is thatpeople don't get opportunity or freedom or equality
or dignity as a gift or an of they only get those things in the act
of taking them through their ovm efforts. Now it seems to me that my experience, --
Mr. Alinsky: You left out a very important line there.
Mr. Buckley:
, .
Mr. •Uinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
Excuse me?
You left out a very important line there.
Excuse me, I didn't mean to. What was it?
I said I did not approach ministers, priests or rabbis on the basis
of Judeo-Christian moral principles because to do so would be to go outside of their
experience. They vTOuldn't Imow ,.,rhtt I was talking about.
Mr. Buckley: Hell -- the.t, there again you're compounding your cynicism. I assume
that there exists some,.,rhere in the world a rabbi --
Mr. Alinsky: Oh, sure, there are plenty of them.
Mr. Buckley: who doesn't consider himself anti-Jewish
v
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. l\linsky:
but don't you see that ...:-
or a Christian that (iuesn't
don't you see in the field of action you're compelled to polarize.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
I
Jv
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
I'm not compelled to I don't see why you should.
Well, you're sitting on a television show. I'm down there organizing.
Mr. Buckley: I know. Yeah.
Mr. ..'D.insl\y: Look, let me --
Mr. Bucluey: You're saying, for instance, that the on the Mount cannot have any
direct experience en people. I'm disputing it. I think that Billy Graham probably has
done more good than you have for poor people. And the reason he has is because, it seems
to me, that the spiritual side of man is that which makes man most important of all.
Mr. Alinsky: No.
Mr. Buckley: And for somebody to stimulate the spiritual faculty is somebody who is
Now,
going to do that man most good in the long run. /Obviously, he's got to start by getting
bread and roofs.
... Mr. Buckley: Only that which I can personally get belongs to me and nobody's going to
help me toget it. I think that America, viewed as a nation, is the most humane nation
in the experience of the world. I think there is more genuine concern for the poor, for
the underprivileged, for the weak in America than we've ever seen in the history of the
world. And I see you trying to fire and establish -- and disestablish the order that
,
")
made that possible.
Mr. Alinsky: You
V racial animosity.
you have -- you had a line in your introduction that I raised
Mr. Buckley: I certainly do.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Alinsky: Do you think when I go into a Black ghetto uEon their invitation, in-
I never go in uninvited, because we're not a colonial operation, you know,
going in like so many other sectors of society: we're going to do this for you
you like it or not. Do you think that I go in and say, Look, I want all of you to know
something. Do you know thtyou're being segregated? Do you know that you're being dis-
criminated against? Do you know all these things that white society is doing to you? How
can you give me that kind of hogwash"
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinslq:
Mr. Buckley:
Because you say that they know it anyway. That's your line, isn't it?
They know it
Yeah, yeah.
And you're looking at me saying And saying that's my line, isn't it?
I am saying that a lot of people tend to believe about their own condition
that which they are told. There are people in Russia who believe they are free --
Alinsky: You know what you ought to --
V
l1r. Buckley: -- and if you tell the Negro people of this country that they don't have any
opportunity, they don't hdve freedom, that they don't have dignity, you're telling
them something that (A) Isn't so; (B) You are inviting them to hate as your deputy minister
Florence (sp.?) hates the white race -- he wears the Black Power badge --
Mr. ,\linsky: You don't think they hate -- you don't think they hate before I come in there?
Mr. Buckley: I lillow 8. lot a tremendous number of people are poor who don't hate. I even
know rich people who don't hate. I even know people who don't llate you, which is the greater
act of (Laughter) NOvl, the
Mr. Alinslq: You know, Buckley, if you'd been around (drovmed out by Announcer)
Announcer: \'le'll expand on these and other points under discussion in just a moment.
l1r. JUinsky: (Remarks lost during announcement) -- and all the rest of them. (Blurred)
-- we're starting to get certain concessions --
r. BuclCLey: Are you in favor of war when pOGsibly negotiation might possibly do the trick?
\J
Mr. AlinGlq: No, but I'm Gaying that (stops on hearing audience Laughter) nm'l, you know
·you're turning that --
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Buckley: No, (Laughing) I'm not.
Mr. l\linsky: Sure you are. (Laughter)
1 '-I'vlr. Buckley: We might have -- we might have on (unintelligible), might we not?
.Ii
Mr o Alinslq: But do you think that the Blacks of this country are going to sit around
waiting for this -- this mythical love-charity business that you're talking about?
I
1
i
I
I
J
I
I
1
1
Mr. Bucluey: I think that the Blacks in this country huve friends, and they have people
who think of themselves as friends --
Mr. Alinsky: Of what?
Mr. Bucluey: I think people like Stokeley Carmichael and Rap Brown do a great deal of harm,
and I ~ h i n k that you have done less harm, but you have done ~ harm.
Mr. Alinsky: (Breaking in) 'Hell, I take that as a compliment.
Mr. Buckley: Curiously -- curiously, this is a harm that you don't do to peqie simply be-
cause they're Negro. You do them to anybody who buys your philosophy. Your philosophy is
really sort of solipsistic. The people -- you Just exist, alld only that v1hich you see exists,
~ n l Y that which you take is yours, only that power which you exercise is exercisable.
think this is a pretty distressing philosophy.
And I
I
~ Mr. Alinsky: Hell, that's -- that's an aborted over-simplification. It's a very warped
1
1 attitude.
Mr. Bucluey: Aborted'?
11r. Alinsky: That's right. Because it's much more than that. You're not going to get a man
you're not going to get men, including many religious leaders, including certain persons
like Jacques Maritain wouldn't be buying an approach and be approving of it on the -- on a
basis which you have just propounded.
Mr. Buckley: I know. He views it differently. lie (unintelligible word) differently, and I
don't think you want someone (unintelligilie) in authority --
Mr. Alinsky: When you say it's bad --
Mr o Buckley: Yeah.
v. Alinsky: Hriat ,,,as bad about Hoodlawn?
Mr. Buckley: Hell, it seems to lUe --
Mx'. Alinslq: Do you know what happened down tlJcre'?
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Buckley: Uh-hll1l1lll1.
, "
Mr. Buckley: (Continuing) Yeah, yeah -- assuming it wasn't incorrectly reported, and
\.II read words in about what happened there. Can I proceed to discuss
that?
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley: 'I'hat wasn't a misquotation?
Hr. Alinsky: No, that "lasn't.
Mr. Buckley: And it was done by some'body very enthusiastic about you, as you know.
Mr. Alinsky: Yeah -- and from a left-wing magazine.
Mr. Buckley: Correct -- correct. Nuw, it seems to me that what's wrong with is
the same thing, generally, that's wrong "lith, for instance, great marches on Washington.
v/hat's wrong is that it that is a way of achieving power which breaks down the structure
of process. Now, you can say, the hell with process, I can't eat process -- this is what
they usually say at this turn in the discussion --
Mr. Alinsky: Hell, no, no. But what do you mean by it brol,;:e dO'wn process?
'-'Mr. Buckley: Hell, what I mean is that when you say, Look, this is a program of things we
j want, and if you don't give it to us, we're going to make it inwossible for Chicago to con-
..
16,
tinue (unclear word) or civic life at all. 'rhe sit-ins at City Hall, the traffic
tie-ups and the rest of it. rfhis -- this is Vintage Alinsky, isn't it?
Mr. J'J.insky: No, no. That's that's old vintae;e. No,!1 proxY' is a nlore (unintelligible)
Well, there's -- I reject them for a very nimple reason because they're no
i
j
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:
Oh, you mean this is a you, you reject the methods used in Woodlawn?
longer effective. A tactic ,which is ineffective is no longer even a tactic.
Mi'. Buckley: I see.
Mr. Alinsky: Now we're involved -- we're involved in a whole modern, corporate economy,
and you've got to deal on a whole different level.
Mr. Buckley: You're saying this happened since 1960?
Mr. Alinsky: Yeah -- this happened the last couple of years. The Edstman Kodwt fracas
\....I
was an example of it on the proxy side.
Mr. Buckley: Shall 'VIe talk about that'?
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
Mr. Alinsky: I don't care what we talk about. But let me suggest this before you get 17.
away from it. 'l'hat before 'Vloodla,m, on the so-called mystical process which you are talking
V
about -- you had a large lilaSS of about 100,000 Negroes viho were just a rootless, floating,
disenfranchised group 'of people who had been under urban renewal -- many of them were two
and three times over fugitives from bulldozers. They were utterly demoralized. They were
on the verge of 'being bulldozed again out into another slum. As a consetluence of' their E!:E.
organization, and what they've done through the power of thcir own activity, thcy today are
in full command of their own urban renewal program. Not only that, they -- the city and
the government both agreed that they would be their own devclopers which means that they
can turn to the building and trades unions, Wl1ich are notoriously segregated, and say,
unless you integratc, you 'Till not be cmployed on these projects.
Mr. Buckley: 'llremendous. That's superb, yeah.
Mr. Alinsky: And I could give you all kinds of what happened in terms of education of
people with them, so that today, even the University of Chicago, which at that time
v my alma mater -- which vTaG a bitter adversary, is one of the staunchest allies of the whole
Woodlavffi organization. Do you know that?
Mr. Buckley: No, and I'm delighted to hear it, because I know that you were very critical
and assumed that they ivould never come around to their senses.
Mx'. l\linsl\y: No, but this is during the stage of And I suppose you would call
that cynical. Hhcn you have to polarize.
Mr. Bucldey: Well, there again -- there again, you say that conflict precedes !:!:!SL progress
j
I at all. A:3 a mutter of fact, I think you suid that the diffurence between the radical and'

,
the Liberal is the difference between the man who believes thut revolution -- a series of
revolutions are necessary to walce progress.
Mr. Alinslq: No, I said the difference betiveen a Liberal and a radical is that the Liberal
is the guy ,{ho vTalks out of the room vThen the argument turns into' a fight. And on the
other thing that you vvcre tulking about on rev:iutions, I said that revolution is primarily
Van -- I'll put it the other way. I said that evolution is a chronological term usell by
non-p:ltrticipating historians to denote a tilJlC sequence of a whole series of' l'evolutions
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
synthesize into a major change -- then they call it evolution.
Bucluey: Yes -- yeah. Can I quote you exactly? Quotes: is no evolution
without revolution, and there are no revolutions' without conflict, and this is the line
which separates Liberals from radicals.
Mr. Alinsky: Hhere did you get that from?
Mr. Buckley: II Harper'
18.
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsl;;y:
Mr. Buckley:
(Pause) All right.
I'll show you it to you after
No, I'll buy it.
Now, do you -- isn't this once again one more expression of your belief
that what progress is made is made by some sort of a Hegelian sense of' controversy, con-
flict, (blurred word sounding like antithesis) and so on. You just finished discussing
the fact tnat there exists in Chicago now something that is substantially better than was
there five or six years ago. Then you say, don't you understand the reason it came into
was because of' the Woodlawn operation and, the Woodlawn operation involved
coni'lict -- .it necessarily to. And rm asking whether or not progress can't be made
, without --
j
"1
Mr. J\linsky: No, I don't believe so. I think that the most insidious, the most subversive
force that has ever entered the American scene is what I would call Madison Avenue public
the word,
relations -- middle class -- moral hygiene. ;lhich has made, !conflict a nasty word. And
controversy a very nasty word. So people are fired off mass media for controversy.
Mr. Bucluey: Hell, don't youthinm the reason -- I, obviously, have a stake in the tolera-
tion of controversy, but I want to ask you this, can't one aehieve progress by reason
or must it be by a conflict of force?
Mr. Alinsky: bvenon the basis of reason, the moment you up with a new idea promptly
...
challenges the prevailing sacred power of the older idea and you've got a conflict going on.
I thinl{ that controversy is the matrix of everything creative that comes out of life.
V
Mr. Buckley: Hell, but then then the question is what do you consider controversy.
For instance, is a debate in Congress contr,)'lersy in the sense that you are talking about?
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Because there are those.
19.
IV
J
Mr. Alinsky; Controversy ranges. It ranges all through variops levels of life. I
I
l
,
!
I
I
would consider, for exanwle, the thing on revolutiono I think Social Security was
revolutionary.
Mr. Buckley; Yeah.
Mr. Alinsl\y; I think Medicare revolutionary. You see the problem is every --
Mr. Buckley: It does seem that we have a semantic difficulty.
I Mr. Alinsl\y: J\.ll words in the whole arena of action are all loaded. (Announcer breaks in)
,I
l Announcer: Our debate on these varied issues will continue after this brief pause.
I
I Mr. Alinsky: (Continuing but some of his remarks lost during simultaneous announcement)
1
j -- gets an idea of blood and barricades, and that sort. j\nd then you say, p01-ler, -- it's
.J
a sinister word, you know.
Mr. Buckley; But for instance, we got -- we got Medicare in this country, and ,.,e got it
as a result of a lot of discussion. Now mightn't IUinsky students have felt that you
v
would need to shoot a few doctors or let a few people die for lack of medical attention
before you'd have the kind of conflict that's necessary to midI-rife for Medicare? And I'm
j
1 asking why can't you have --
Mr. (OVerlapping) Buckley, I've been fascinated by your eyes in previous shows
will
I've watched you on, and you look at me and tell me whether you believe what you're
Mr. Bucluey: Well, of course, No -- what I'lll trying to do is extract from you disbelief
in what people understand you to bc Perhaps you -- I'm terribly refreshed that
you aee constantly shocked that people -- at quotations I throw at you of things you've
Ivlr. Alinsl\y; vlhy am I shocked?
Mr. Buckley; I'm shows great progress. (Laughter)
Mr. Alinsky: No, I'm just correcting some of the misquotations (Laughing) (Laughter)
Mr. Buckley; Oh, all right. If you're saying, therefore, that conflict is what we're
V
doing right now, then I agree with you that conflict is probably necessary for the change
of any point of view. But most people und,,:rstand you to be saying something much more --
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Yeah -- and what er --
20.
Bucluey:
Mro And what the understanding is closer to it than just our discussion. I don't --
Mr. Bucl<;:ley: Yea4-
Mr. Alinsl<;:y: -- want to - I don't want to get -- I don't want to take a pass on it.
saying very -- very unreservedly, that our progreso as a response to a threat, and
the reaction to the threat is wherein you get progresso 'I'm saying that all actions of
history have come that way.
Mr. Buckley: That's not
Mr • There doesn't necessarily have to be violence --
, I
f
....
Mr. Buckley: I'm quite -- but that's not What was the tmreat -- what is the relevant
threat, let's say, when John decides to marry Jane. (Pause) Loneliness, if he doesn't,
you mean, in that sense? Then you're reducing threat to a state that's sort of meaningless.
see
Mr. Alinsky: Well, some people might say d suicidal design to it.
V
Mr. Bucluey: Hell, then, Idee, I see - okay
Mr. Let's not get into (blurred by overlap)
Mr. Buckley: No, this is simply your lingo here -- your
Mr. No, no, no. Let's - let me put it to you this way. On your basis of reason,
can you imagine a labor organizer comdng into an employer and saying, and I'm now quoting
some of the crHicism against me from a representative of the Joint Center up in Cambridge,
saying that I represent a negative approach, as up against a positive approach -- I repre-
sent negative conflict vis-a-vis positive, mutual search for cooperative common good. So
I come into you -- you're an employer. .l',.nd I am a literate labor organizer and believing
devoutlyin tIle act of reason, et cetera. And I say to you, particularly if you are General
Motors or any one of the emrIDyers, Nay, look, I don't want to go in and start organizing
your people, and, of course, I'll have to polarize this and make you a villain. There's
going to be all kinds of conflict and strike threats and so on until you recognize a union
\...,t
here. And you sit down and negotiate a contract with us. Why don't 'VIe, as rational men
committed to reason, why don't 'Yie sit down and in a mutual search for the common good, you
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr, University.
21.
give me a contract recognizing a labor union here. You Itnow what you're going to do
on the basis of rational reason?
Mr. Buckley: No.
,
I
1
!
1
j
Mr. Alinslty: You're going to call Bellevue and have them pick me up and go over there for
spinal tests. You blOW that.
Mr. Buckley: No.
Mr. Alinsky: Come on.
Mr. Buckley: I'm going to say this is simply a technique of clever old iUinslty.
Mr. Alinsky: And you're not going to do You're not gonna do it, so I'm going to
have to go down there and organize.
Mr. Buckley: I'm going to say that you're going to have to convince me that it is for
the good of everyone involved that they should be unionized.
Mr. Alinsky: You knmv any other '!tray I'm going to be able to convince you?
Mr. Buclt1ey: i{ell, I'm convinced by things all the time. I read books. I hear people
of how things happen.
Mr. Buckley:
Mr. iUinsky: You know exactly what I'm talking about.
You have a very -- you have a very sort of a Darwinistic view No, no, no.
J
!. Vtalk. You see
'I
j

i
i
·1
1
Mr. iUinsky: Darwinistic?
Mr. Buckley: Yeah, you know. 'rhere's a certain amount of progress made because you eat
!
J
the weak ones and the weak ones eat the wel:l.ker ones, and so and sO forth
--
Mr. Alinsky: No, no, no;
Mr. Buckley: I don't think i\mericU:'lworks that way. It seems to me just -- (overlap)
Mr. Alinslty: No, no - you're getting off the lever. You know exactly what I'Ill talking
about. Do you Imow of any other way I can convince them?
Buckley: Look, looko I believe in the essentials of capitalism, and you can Sqy there
is a certain i:unount of conflict involved there. Your dilemma that you posed to me a moment
is another \-ray of saying, what does the D:J,rketplace decide in a situation like that.
The marketplace decides tho,t force m8.jeur is .I:orce majeur and you have to yield to it.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
I
J
The answer is if I don't have to yield on a point that I disavprove of, then I won't.
22.
If I'm made to yield, then I will, even if I disapprove of it. But I doult sec that
U this is to add anything ne"T to the discussion, provided you don't go so far and say,
this whatever -- whatls Ulore is a of life. The answer is, I think" many more
people are convinced not by factions of but by the precepts of people they listen
internal
to and by some sort of/search and do the right thing.
Mr. All right, let's tuH, ubout it for a moment. Ever since the Civil 'VIaI' and
before thut, I'm not even going to tul\:e the period of slavery in, this is a Christian,
'-Testern civilized nation. They've constantly been talking about the fact that the Mystical
Body of' Christ knO\-TS no coloX' line. They go to ChUl'ch and they hear all this in nice,
segregated churches, and on a rational basis all the anthropologists have come up '-T1t11
their various findings, cutting across through this color barrier, et cetera. Do you think
that there would have been any change as fur as civil rights legislation, as far as many of
the breakthroughs that have occurred --
Mr, Buckley: Of course.
l.!
-'
Mr. Oh, come on. I don't know what fairyland you're living in, if you --
J lvlr. Buckley: lIme:dca, that's my fai¢and, the country you don't kno\-T. Let me tell you
there was a tremendous of change during the preceding ten, fifteen, twenty, thirty
years in the United States.
14r.1Ilinsl\:y: I donlt know -- you know the kind of America you're liVing in, it really is
a fairyland when you tell me that Billy Grahwn has had affect on thepoor of America.
",
Mr. Buckley: He has. There -- there are poor people who will tell you their lives have
been changed by Billy Graham. 'rheir lives have been changed to the point they cease having
such a materialistic fixation as you tend to have \'Then you view the country around you.
The whole purpose --
11r. Alinsky: A poor person ceases to have such a materialistic fixation.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,
Mr. Alinsky: I went -- yeah, I'll accept that one.
UMr. Buckley: You're a very bright man and America made it possible in pa.rt.
Mr. Alinsl\y: Yeah, but let me tell you something tllat I found very little businesses on
]
I
!
1
J
j
j
and rats and everything else living back in the store and so on with anything
that Billy Graham would have been preaching on. If you call that u materialistic .fixation
-- trying to get avlay from cockroaches -.. trying to get away from --
Mr. Buckley: I'm sure that Billy Graham would try to get away from cockroaches, too.
•. I'm sure he would.
Mr. Bucluey: only point is tllat having got away from the cockroaches, what then do you do?
Mr. Alinsky: I don't think he's done a thing as far as the liberation that is now coming
among the Black
Mr. Buckley: Well, I think we not going to talk exclusively about Black America, we're
. have
talking about people, even if they're not Black, they!deservffiyour consideration occasionally
and get it. And it seems to me that these people understand that there is a component in
which you tend to ignore.
Mr.l\linsky: I donlt ignore --
Mr. Buckley: A spiritual component.
Mr. Alinsky: I don't ignore that spiritual component.
it's a
Mr. Buckley: Oh, you make fun of it. You thinyjkind of a laugh, don't you?
Mr. Alinsky: I don'
Mr. Buckley: Because you especially love having the priests and rabbis (unclear -- fawn over
you?)
Mr. Alinsky: No, no, you know why I don't ignore it, It's very important.
Mr. Alinsky: It's very important that I don't because -- because if' you're -- if you're
fighting for a free open society, you're fighting for a free open society for people, and
;.1' you're fighting for people and "lith people, you're fighting for certain values.
o
1/tr. Buckley: Umm.
Mr. Alinsl\y: Certain values that al'C at the very top of the hierarchy•. I wouldn't go into a
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
,"
COll1l1ll.l.ni ty and organi ze it if -- if they were to say to me, vIe ilTant you, vIe' re in-
Viting you in -- we're funding this organization program, and as a consetluence of the
organization, they say democratically we have voted 99-1, let's say it's a southern
white community for segregation -- and that's the democratic way --
Mr. Buckley: uh-hm.
24.
Mr. Alinslq: I ''1Ould say to them that tha.:b is not the democratic v/ay, and 1'm coming in
to fight you on it.
Mr. Buckl.ey: Uh-hmm.
Mr. Alinslq: Because the democratic way includes certain of these high values, and the
purpose of it, and those values ~ the Judeo-Christian moral principle that are involved
here. I er -- you're confusing one with the other in terms of those vlho profess to prac-
tice it. ~ h o s e are the ones I've been after. Not the values. Not the spiritual life that
you're talking about.
Mr. Buckley: Yeah, but your whole approach seems to be directed (7 remarks are drowned
~ out when announcer breaks in) on the assumption
Announcer: 'He interrupt briefly and rejoin our participants in this interesting discussion.
Mr. Buckley: -- that the spiritual values don't accomplish ClJlurred word in overlap). It
may be that you simply vie"l --
Mr. Alinsky: Aren't the churches saying that themselves'? Aren't they saying
Mr. Buckley: S o n ~ are. But--
Mr. Alinslq: Isn't the big (lUestion today no longer is there life after deu.th but really
is there life after birth',
Mr. Buckley: Oh -- that sounds like something that Ired Sorenson would have vlritten. (Laughtel
Mr. !'.:linslq: No, it comes off a button.
Mr. Bucltley: Is there? I didn't know that.
Mr • .fUinsky: One of those buttons, you know. I mean the last part of' it.
Mr. Buckley:
Maybe he bolwmianizes after hours.
Hr. Alinsky: Ah, '..lait u minute. It's not the Idnd of' button that mal\.Cs anybody laugh in
the Black ghettoes because that is actuallJ a basic question of life.
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Buckley: Hell, er
25.
UMr. Alinsky: Look, in all the ghettoes I've been in, I don't leno.'! -- I can't see anything
I can't even see one cockroach that turned over dead on the basis of any of Billy
Graham' s on this particulal' level.
Mr. Bucl>.ley: If I rrk'W say so, that's a pretty vulgar observation because Billy Graham is
not the apostle of the faith that says, pray for the elimination of cockroaches and that
shall be done unto you. (Laughter) It is more or less generally assumed that however fervent
a believer you are, you've got to kill your Oi.,rn cockroaches and do something for yourself.
But you do have a view of society which is at leatt distinctive. For instance, in 1965
",hat you were most worrying about "ras the John Birch Society. No\'! let's not underestimate
this operation, you said in 1965, it's gro\'!ing, and in this \lay (rest unclear) --
Mr. ill1at are you quoting from now?
Mr. Buckley: IIHarper's.1I (La ughter) Mr. Minsky also laughs.
Mr. Alinsky: You really read that, didn't you.
V11r. Buckley: Oh, yeah, everything. Can't you tell?
J
Mr. Minsky: No, I tell you "rhy I say I can't tell. I was •.,rondering vn1ether you ever got
No, sir.
Oh, I' ,n glad to heal.' that. Do you have definite information on it?
II Viall Street Journal." (Lo:ughLd')
Mr. Alinsky:
Mr. Buckley:
V
Mr


Mr. Bucluey:
around to reading er --
Mr. Buckley: Not the book that was pro:nised in 19G6but has not yet been published?
Mr. Alinsky: No, no. I'TIl going to hea.!' about that tonight from Handon House. Did you get
around to reading that (unintelligible) of' Unioll rl'heological of' Means and
1:-'11'. Buckley: No, I would like very much to huve it -- especially I'm very much interested in
you (?) in Means and Ends.
Mr. JQinsky: I thought that was some --
Mr. Buckley: But you don't think that the John Birch Society is a great threat now, do you
-- especially since it isn't growing since -- since when you said that?
Isn't it grOWing?
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.
Mr. Alinsky: (After laughing) Oh, you have your ovm pipe lines in that direction,
o haven't you? You've got better lines that I have.
Mr. Buckley: Much better, yeah. Perhaps before you say anything about the John Birch
Society in the future, you will consult me. (Laughter)
1 Mr. Alinsky: I'll be glad to. (Laughing)
! Mr. Buckley: Let's have some questions. (To audience) Yes, sir.
Question: I'd like to address mY question to Mr. Alinsky. Sir, in your speech you referred
'I
I
1
j
many times to the Revolutionary Period in American history.
Mr. Alinsky: vlliat speech are you talking about?
Questioner: Well, in the discussion that has been carried on this far. Now, with that in
mind, Sir, do you consider the present time another revolutionary period, and if you do,
do you consider violence just may be a means to your ends?
Mr. Yes, I do consider this a very definite revolutionary period 'because it is a
periodpi' enormous .change. I have alvlays said that I am opposed to violence unless it is
\.Ithe only possible recourse that a person has for life itself, literally. By life itself,
I mean equality, dignity and
Announcer: Our time has just about run out. Our thanks now to Mr. Hr. Buckley
and the students at St. John's University.
'x- * -x- *
v
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University,

., .
I'

maybe one or two other individuals. e1r. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky:

Ah-hum -- I have a few more, but go ahead. All done in the same category. Are they? What category is Mr. Reisman in?

Mr. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky:

Oh, that's an interesting category -- sort of a new research procedure, where You do not go into the projects.

you do not contact the. person you are doing research bn. You do not talk to anyone associated with them.

And you then come up with some statements
mos~

which are so far removed from the fact, that even my to use those statements.
Mr. Buckley:

bitter critics are too embarrassed

Except me. (Laughter) Well, .you haven't used them. You've just made a comment on it. I made a

Mr. Alinsky:

statement -- I refuse to debate with him, which only came up recently on the program -And I made the remark that any time I see any of battle his stuff, it sort of makes me feel like a grizzled bell-scarred dog going down the street as a matter of fact, in New York City.

~Thile 'way back -- say, six blocks back or so -- this little whining Pekingese comes out
sniffing, yipping and licking and growling at my leavings. time turning around. And I'm not going to waste any

Mr. Buckley:

You're not very nice to your critics, are you? (Laughter)

But I gather you

resent it when they're not very nice to you. grapher.(Laughter)

You called Sargent Shriver a political porno-

Mr. Alinsky: Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky: Mr. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky:

No, I didn't call him that. Yes, you did. Unless you were misC].uoted.

No, no, I wasn't -- you're misC].uoting me at this moment. Well, I don't -- not intentionally -Oh, I know that. I'm C].uoting words assigned to you by
\I

Mr. Buckley:
Mr. Alinsky: eMr. Buckley: Nr. Alinsky: Mr. Buckley:

Harper' Sll magazi19.e.

No, I said that the Poverty Program was a prize piece of political pornography. Okay. Now, do you want -(Laughing) You take i t from there. (IJaughter)
© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. University.

and I concur. Churc~' Wehll -.this is the editor of the "Living magazine: snee~s I heard Mr. and if it program -. at Christianity. because I think that's part of his racket. . I want to be qUite sure because a lot of people say that you are pretty for~h.which. somebody has to write 3. er -_ © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. moralistic trappings and -it wasn't "Harper's' but the reaction when I call it political pornography is -. no. That's right. Mr.". (Laughter). University. Alinsky: e:lr.part of his profession. Well. didn't come out with all these sanctimonious. Mr. Alinsky: No. They say I'm sub-Christian. Buckley: Mr. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky: Well. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky: Well. For every" Fanny Hill. Mr. I'm not. Mr. Buckley: Anti-Christian? That's what -- No. (Laughter) Part of his ideals. Buckley: anti-Christian.I had been told that he scoffs and I came. eAlinsky speak at the Convention -. Alinsky: Mr. it is.Y: Mr. and I think everybody sitting thel'e asswnes that. But when all the time you know that he has been playing (1) with the organist (Mr. sorry. I heard. I see -. in fact." there's a guy who wrote it. Alinsky: Mr. Bucluey: Mr. . Go ahead. what I meant by that on the Poverty Program was it was a Federal welfare Instead of being billed as a War on Poverty. " -00. Part of his belief. Alinsl{.from there. Alinsky: You know exactly what I'm talking about. plOrnog:b~phy. hypocritical. Bucluey cut in on this last line). (Laughing) No. Buckley: Well. Mr. you take it (blurred) -. Part of his profession.Y: Mr. (Laughter) .is this part of your racket to fight poverty? Are you using racket in an invidious way? Mr. they don't call me anti-Christian. Alinsl{.vlr.let's put it this way: I don't object to a minister or any religious representative getting up on the altar and giving a sermon against adultery. and so on and so Mr. anti-dogma. I saw. Buckley: Why do you say racket -.

disagreements on policies and differences of opinions and programs. Alinsky: fee for any services.ional hang-up on hypocrisy.s -. Well.you kno\V. then I start saying. Marshall Ji'ields never die. JUinsky: Mr.000 from Hochester. Buckley: Mr ••\linsky: \. (Laughter) II m not going to get into But er -- © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Buckley: Mr. At least they don't call them -- J Mr. Buckley: Mr. Nr.. I'm not -. Mr. Buckley: don It go out of their way to criticize them. S right... Buckley: Mr.' I read the figure $100.Mr. they don't say you're being a hypocrite. Alinsky: (Pause and sigh) 1~ey Yeah. I raise these shall I say. you know. Buckley: Well. critical cormnent. Buckley: Mr. Buckley: ~nybody He didn't call you a sub-Christian. don't you think that's true of everybody? \'lho likes hypocrites? Do you kno\V anybody who likes hypocrites? Mr.. that in fact will be (Laughter) YOtu' Mr. I assume so. Alinsl\y: Mr.there . ~~rshall Field hasn't paid anything since -. Alinsky: years ago.I get an emot.:> are spent right in the corrununity. but that's part of the practice of many of those so-called practit. -. . the old Marshall Field.ioners. Mr.. I would like to make two corrections on your -Yes sir. I -. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky: that one. I see them around.mt thOse fund:.on your introduction. It would be very unChristian to call 4.with those vlho I don't mind sharp profess to be practising. yeah. One is. As far as my salary. yeah -. vlouldn't it'? (Laughter) Yes. but it's when you get hypocrisy seasoned with sanctimoniousness. a sub-Christian in any case. Alinsky: Mr.ny others that. I. The old Marshall Field. 'I'hat I ~. hang-up. Yeah. Mr. Oh. we donlt charge any fee. quote the other "~aye But.certainly not anti-Christian on those -. lUinsl\Y: No.re :mo. Buckley: Mr. let alone a modest I ~ 1 41'.he died about fifteen Oh. University. or as far as the foundation oper-Marshall Field pays that. Alinsl\Y: Mr. no. Yeah.

please. I have -. teaching institutes in terms of money -. Your difficulty. But you are. Now. you said 1 1 11 steal before I'll take charity. You know better than that. I think you're very cynical. won't you just Vke it? Mr.that's the price of our independence."hy don't you take charity then'( Well.just going to.major religious denominations. I think that you've touched on a point that's extremely interesting I would like to develop because you do have fascinating general notions. And there's an intensive university lecturing schedule across the country and consultations with various groups in different cities that we are not operating but who want to know how to organize. You feel (inaudible) p. it seems to me. It isn't the act of stealing. Mr. ~ A1insl~: we live off the Jand We have -.eli~dSQV'fofd ~On~§(Sit~O .we're like Sherman's AJ. certain tha~ ~ of. or Kansas City or Chicago. Now. we make our own -.life itself is just a constellation of Mr. obviously. A1ins~: Yeah. you may not have contradictions.'my -- V. A1ins~: Well. Buckley: suIt my feelings if' I were to say to you. contrad~ions Of' course. you know what I meant by charity -. (Continuing. Mr. We'll interrupt briefly and then return to the points at issue. But it's on that basis that our funds are raised. Or is it the act of stealing that gives you the satisfaction that you require'? Oh. Buckley: Mr. of cour::>e not.leasure for it. Buckley: Welfare handouts are the products (?) (bl~ed in overlap) of philanthropy.Mr. Bucluey: -I don't think you think you are. Well. it's associated with the you certain. A1ins~: Well. JUins~: (Next of his remark blurred in overlap). then it is charity -. You really assume the way -Announcer.would you con- Mr.ms@9@eA~et. Buckley: You have to make a living. The funds that are charged. getting vlelfure hand- outs and -Mr. but barely audible during announcement) pretty much the ~" Buckley: way a blind man does about sex act of rape. before stealing from me -. are spent in that conununity for organization. say in Rochester. is that you may be premature -- Mr. Mr. Buckley: Hell. suppose I'm the person you're going to steal it from --. And you should. We don't get foundation grants on it. For instance.

I'm saying that a people do not I I J get power except vThen they take it. Buckley: Mr.it's just so academic.in effect But you do have a feeling -' you I \ ~ you have that -. . to Or at least gives up i{hat would be a compromise arrangement. 1 j me is not a dirty word. you .that. true~ Oh.. Okay. they're often uround -. Does that mean that you wrested it from us? You would then have power over us. Suppose everybody in this room decided to nominate you as our leader. if I had to define the whole democratic process in one word. b 1. I 1 'I j j '1 In the first place.you know..\. You say'. I wouldn't power to do anything. wrest it from somebod Mr. ~'\1insky: Vhile -Mr. Buckley: (unintelligible) our allegiance to you. University.1 t suppose __ I'd have a bunch of kids and you.he isn't going to be around to say to you. Alinsky: Mr.. I'm using it l:>trict1y as defined in Webster's Unabridged as the ability to act. Buckley: No . the. and . i'J.. (Breaking in) No. gives it Lip. Alinsky: Mr.re1'ore. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. y-our money -. (Laughter) Jack Benny Mr. I would use that word.insky: have any ~a~t If everybody in this room decided to nominate me as their leader. Why wouldn't you . Well.1 will not permit that society to give it to you • Alinsl~: Isn't that the meaning of your: (blurred) -. vJhen I talk about power. wbydon't -Mr. i 1 j I I just said a moment ago now that you said that you only get power if you. As far as the little example you gave -. I'll have to think it over. Mr. your money or your life. (Laughter) i I I I read your co1unm on that one.. But.why wouldn't you if we pledge some While your columns might be of/help for a Mr. I think -- fl'hat's not . Mr. A1insky: ~ • Sometimes they are~ It happens every day in New York. Buckley: Yeah. well -- let's -- You only get power as a reaction to a threat.. Buckley: vays.u6ufructs of life. if v1e're going to steal anything from somebody.call it choice (last very unclear). I think you're going off into a vortex on this business on this point. When they'l'e strong enough so that the other side Compromise.little verbalistic Mr.must either take it from somebody b~cause you . Buckley: r-1r. of course i t is.

Alinsky: Three. do you want to understand Desperately.'(. l!.n a position to deplpy us in any "lay that you chose. I'll go with you on it. own dignity.very judgment that is made is made on the basis I find myself totally cOlmnitted to a free and you don't have the choice of Vlhat's best. '-Sf alternatives. busically.vtever future there © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr.wa8 not -and they weren't getting it mixed up with the world as they would like i t to be. et cetera. living in the \wrld as it is. 1 i I U-1r. suppose you were j. Mr. that. Alinsky: I find i t difficult to do. Mr.I find myself very much in agreement vIi til the thinking of the early Revolutionary leaders. lUinsky: In the first place. Buckley: 1 1 I your philosophY here. this was a jump-off point that they vlex'e heading towards -. Mr. fr'eedom. Nov" the one thing that they were concerned ttl)out in this kind of a life is that vlhile things \-lUS would always be changing.uality. You do? (Laughter) nw philosophY? Well. lUl right.the future of an .for achieving his. Jay.the f'ui!ure v~ere But that '" mankind could '1 V always be improving or living a happier life full of potentials for -- you find yourself 'rifting into cliches here -. to -.of the world they were living in. I have never tal\:en that kind of pOl·ler. University. who I think were extraordinarily politically sophisticated and very well read and very thoughtful in terms of the implications of their actions and very much aware of the fact th -. I'. I'm 1001<::Lng ut it very pragmatically. why haven't we actually vouchsafed you something. fUinslcy: No. wlli. can you sort of be desvel'ately silent fOl' about one minute or two minutes. Now. e<a. Buckley: we having to decide to give you that power.. Alinsky: Mr. et cetera. That's a different that's not a relevant ansVler. Buckley: Mr. lUl right. Mr. Well. 'l'hree. Halnilton. Buckley: Mr.n thinking of men like Madison. I'm trying to unders tcmd I Mr. As far as I'm concerned. 'On that basis I will in terms of my OI'1n acceptance and understanding of our political situation -.

and so forth. University. that they can turn to other sectors of society. . Mr. Vir. 8Ba One is a 'committment to the kind of -. in fact.the combination of in those sectors of our society that are disenfranchised vThereby through The only reason organization. JUI right. Mr. in his speculations of this new way of life..reement on policies.you have to have that. Buckley: Mr. Bucluey: Er Freedom is participation in pm'TeX'. Er -. and say: here arc u.ndhaulinc. et cetera -. and I have to an- bring down the hopes for the future. through having a convention. open society. Yeah. in order to be able to put things into practice ideas that they have in order to belong. but there are large sectors of our population that weren't even able to A.. You even huve to have it -. which is really a synonym for authority to act in this world.. j that complex that -. Mr.hereby through getting together.complex.tr n~presentatives. Or to get leverage to even begin one where they don't hcwe any.8.g political strictly in the Greek sense here. I'm usil). what is involved here. these are the men for you Hithout to deal with in the dowocl'atic give and take L. JUinslq: vote'. people are organizadi.'e you talking about Hochester? No.. through V lc. able to have po. swer you on tvlO levels here: circwnstances. et cetera.if I might digr'ess for a moment -You do not have that on a (unclear word) situation -..let's say. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. ac. it rested in the fact of having as ~~ny people involved as citizens being ~ble to act as citizens. lUinsl\:y: j You've got lever'age if you can vote. Yeah. yeah.wing un election of offic(jrs. j Mr. Alinsky: And that if we ever ran into a situation in this country vThere a large sector of our population was disenfranchised politically and economically. in order to have the power to be part of the -- V . decislou-maklng. Bucluey: To maximize their leverage.el'. people every organize. 1 ' m talking about the South. I agree. deTocquille makes the same point Now. I'm tulking about Mississippi. Buckley: Mr. '. Alinslq: Mr. (Next blurred in overlap).call it political' complex -.I'm not talking about equality in terms of e<1ual income or anything else of that sort -but i f \'10 ever ran into that kind of situation that it would very vTel1 become malignant and As a matter of fact. I'm talldng a'bout the vThole basis in many sector's of this country in terms of the civil righ"':s revolution.

ith Capones. you know Mr. Buckley: Mr.J.(Fades out at break by Announcer) He'll rejoin our debate after this brief pause. And -. Alinsky: Mr. Let's V assume that the pov. Alinsky: Whu. been very close to that situation.". I hasten to say.numbers of people. f.insky: Mr..hat's your ideologj.this. sure. BuclCLey: er -. BuclCLey: Hr. the ". Buckley laughs) -. Buckley: It was non-participating.let's not -- vI'.that's a social truism. Buckley: lmnouncel': Hr. but. (Still inaudible during announcement) (Also blurred out) Yeah. That's right.I'm \. which I think is a primary element in the democratic mix. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Mr.. Mr. that's -.. you don't have that combirrt. Mr.and it is quite true that you have to deal through spokesmen if you wo.h-huh.E:oduces legitimate.ith reference to where you going. . was platonic. Buckley: Uh-hmm.ion "'hich .. They turn to Unless a vlho's gonna come forth'? people are organized.nt to deal with nwnbers -. 'rhe other point that comes in in which I would be interested in your reactions .being very kind -. Alinsl\Y: It's been the case since 1840. as you know.. having I -.t happened in 10407 had We Rl'iVe too many people around to keep going on the town hall basis -. they also dealt ".ide REPRE8 representation.j 1>1.1'. The -.and this is the kind of' thing a guy like Beisman and a number of these political illiterates are always coming up with as far as -. 9. we've got to deal "lith the representatives of the Black ghettoes. the Black ghettoes and say send us a representative. Buckley: Why.except out on the western frontiers..(Laughter) and it's quite a strain (Mr.ers that be. you are really asking me -. Let's take Detroit.deciding as they did decide when they got together af'terwards. Mr..nevcrtheles:j you observed u.platonic -. right after the riots that occur:ced. University. A1insky: ll. ".nd -. The other thing that I would like to bring up here is when you push me on reasons why. And in Chicago.your relationship.hole democratic society begins to founder. bona f.

You start of'f with the Prime Truth (1) The acceptance of the rrrinity of Christ -Mr. temporal rather than spirituCll matters. he's got possession of a prime truth: (1).truth I J and changing.i:lg about yourself -. if the people have power as that they will meet each particular crisis and each particular iss\. And you cannot predict what they're going So that you don't have a neat.at leastjmost people -© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Alinsky: Uh-hm. such as a Harxist has. doesn I t have the formula or the prescript.at you have been cond0rnning Ideologists fo:c that to reason. get up there and Any good Catholic Jesuit can/give you the Catholic ideology.not having the reason for all the illnesses. and citiz~ns. 80 then the ideology begins. Well. Now.hat's most interest. I think . and not having that prime truth to begin vlith -.:1. -.. you have what as known as a revolution.COiJununism.e as it comes along. for a free soI'd be interested in your reactions on it . I'm not asking you for a neat. you've got to have possession of' a prime truth. University. stage (l4-) Paradise on earth . Stage (3) Dictatorship of the proletariat -. that is.packaged political prescription.x:m to the answers. Since they will not voluntarily alidicate cooperate and abdicate. Alinsky: '1'hat's right. obviously. paclmged poli tical I tend. I'm talking about. to have an ideology.l ~iety presents some real hang-ups on it.. All we can do in this situation is to simply assume one article of faith.reorganizing society. But.a proposition with which I happen to agree. Prime Truth -.to begin with. F'~e You come to stage (2) _.10. though I hope you won't how v Mr. though I think should at least acknowledge that you begln. Buckley: Mr. My problem and the problem of any organizer in is relative V J a free society for an open society is (1) r1e doesn't have a prime truth -. the ideology and the organizer in a free society.for instance. . a Marxist starts off. I rejoice that Mr. Bucluey: call me an ideologist in the sense th.by believing that the democratic way tends to any of make more sense of/the visible alternatives -Mr. to distrust those vlho do. because an ideology -. you get rid of the capitalist.All problems that we have in our society are due to the exploitation of the proletariat by the capitalist. Alinsky: Well. like you. Buckley: you don't have one. to be. Mr. vTe of course. And you leave from there on.

Buckley: your own central cynicism. to close dO"l{ll City Hall a while ago in Chicago -just sent ~ after ~ of people there just to close it down.you simply want it. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. is a problem of the poor. you appeal -. the Mayor to go out. for instance. And -. On the other hand. Alinsl\y: It isn't~wanting it.' \. Now. Buckley draws this out) you'd rather steal than receive welfare. you were per'. you've got to make your own way. University. Mr. Alinsky: (Unclear in overlap) ~lflat was pure (?) -. And you arc perfectly prepared to cause a tremendous cUUOW1t of cOlmnotion out in the suburban areas where landlords live so as to force the neighbors.Woodlawn.. who are against welfare because they do believe that there is going on in this country a sort of' institutionalization of welfare that "lye ought to g. You appeal to some of them because you have this disdain as suggested by tl:d ultimatum of yours that for wel-fare-ism (tilT. vlhen you see that they want it. . Mr.you appeal also to Liberals and radicals because yours is a highly non-rhetorical approach. as I understand it. You actually want And you seem to be u·tterly either unconscious or. this appeals to a lot of people soft of' Conservative-minded. to organize the poor. Once again. at least insensible to the normal niceties of approach. So you appeal to them. it seems to me that you obtrude into the discussion ~Mr. Mr. Buckley: Hell. yeah. Alinsky: Mr. if not unconscious. and you want to cause them to demand things.those people only do the right lffid I wanted to get the vn1ite neighbors to put the pressure things for the wrong reasons. Malee it impossible for the Mayor to go in. Bucluey: I've been involved in so many of these things. Now. They vleren' t doing it for equality.(blurred in overlap) Or the Sheriff to go in or the Sheriff to go out. on their white slwn landlord in order to get rid of the Negro pickets that were in the cOlmUunity.is this distinctiveeppeal that you have to certain types of people who recognize ~there ~. I'm trying to remember -That was Hoodlavffi -." 11. Mr. yeah. 1n1en you want something -.they would be Conservative in a way -.t out 01' it and that to be essentially hmnan. Yeah. as you put it -themselve~ to put pressure on the delinquent landlords to make those refonns and show (Blurred in overlap).Ifectly prepared.

•Uinsky: Mr. some of them are But you -. the vTelfare of their church. l\linsky: .. Buckley: 0 come on . v Mr. Alinsky: Mr. Mr. -- of taking them through their ovm efforts. Alinsky: ~ That's not cynicism. who doesn't consider himself anti-Jewish but don't you see that . I've been asked why I never talked to a Catholic priest or a Protestant minister or a rabbi in terms of the JudeoChristian ethic or the Ten Commandments or the Sermon on the Mount. I Mr. Alinsky: I said I did not approach ministers.you say.Mr. .rhere in the world a rabbi -Mr. What was it? Mr.the. Buckley: assume that there exists some. 1. Buckley: . Alinsky: Are they all Conservatives? Mr.:or a Christian that (iuesn't don't you see in the field of action you're compelled to polarize. Hell -. You left out a very important line there. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr.. Excuse me.. priests or rabbis on the basis of Judeo-Christian moral principles because to do so would be to go outside of their experience.>e -. I didn't mean to.. Mr. Buckley: Oh. this m~y They're of every stripe. sure.. I never talk instead I approach them on the basis of their o. 12. Alinsky: Mr. Buckley: Mr.at least it's the most interesting thing I've ever seen you say. You say. traduce you to some if you like later on. that's realism. And you go on to say. lot of them are Liberals.. the most importantlesson is thatpeople don't get opportunity or freedom or equality or dignity as a gift or an ~ct of ch~rity they only get those things in the act Now it seems to me that my experience. Buckley: Mr.t. University.a lot of people do things they don't want to do at all. for instance. Mr. I'll in- and they do them simply because they think it's the right thing to de. in those tel~s. ovm reaction to it was most interesting. Alinsky: Mr.vn self-interest. there again you're compounding your cynicism. even its physical property. there are plenty of them. They vTOuldn't Imow . and I think My Some of them are Communists.. Buckley: radicals. Excuse me? You left out a very important line there..rhtt I was talking about..

for the weak in America than we've ever seen in the history of the world. I know. Alinsky: V You you have -. that the I'm disputing it.insl\y: Mr. Alinsky: ~fuen I'm not compelled to pol~rize. Mr.. Well. /Obviously. Yeah. it seems done more good than you have for poor people. Look. Buckley: Yes~ I certainly do. the underprivileged. to me. Mr. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. for help me toget it.. I'm down there organizing. .'D. Buckley: Mr. in the experience of the world. Mr. Mr. you're sitting on a television show. that the spiritual side of man is that which makes man most important of all. Buckley: Only that which I can personally get belongs to me and nobody's going to I think that America. Mr. going to do that man most good in the long run. Mr. . I don't see why you should. . is the most humane nation I think there is more genuine concern for the poor.you had a line in your introduction that I raised racial animosity. he's got to start by getting bread and roofs. ") And I see you trying to fire and establish -. Buckley: And for somebody to stimulate the spiritual faculty is somebody who is Now. I think that Billy Graham probably has And the reason he has is because. viewed as a nation.Jv I Mr. Bucluey: Sel~on on the Mount cannot have any direct experience en people. Buckley: Mr..and disestablish the order that made that possible. University. let me -You're saying. Alinsky: No. . for instance.

And you're looking at me saying that~ anyway~ That's your line.?) hates Mr. Alinsky: Do you think when I go into a Black ghetto uEon their invitation. University. but I'm Gaying that (stops on hearing audience Laughter) nm'l.and all the rest of them. I never go in uninvited. V ~r. isn't it? And saying that's my line.we're starting to get certain concessions -\J r. Buckley: ~ the white race -. yeah. (Blurred) Announcer: l1r. (B) You are inviting them to hate as your deputy minister Florence (sp. Alinsky: Mr. . you're telling them something that (A) Isn't so.and if you tell the Negro people of this country that they don't have any ~ l1r.Mr.\linsky: Mr. act of (Laughter) NOvl. isn't it? I am saying that a lot of people tend to believe about their own condition There are people in Russia who believe they are free -- that which they are told. BuclCLey: Are you in favor of war when pOGsibly negotiation might possibly do the trick? No. Buckley: Mr. which is the greater You know. in- ~identallY. something. JUinsky: -. you know Mr. They know it Yeah. . Alinsky: You know what you ought to --. going in like so many other sectors of society: you like it or not. we're going to do this for you \~lether Do you think that I go in and say. Buckley: Mr.you don't think they hate before I come in there? I lillow 8. Look. the Mr. because we're not a colonial operation. I even know rich people who don't hate. Buckley. you know. Alinslq: I even know people who don't llate you. Alinslq: Mr. Buckley: Because you say that they know it anyway. they don't hdve freedom. Buckley: opportunity. lot a tremendous number of people are poor who don't hate. that they don't have ~ dignity.he wears the Black Power badge -- You don't think they hate -. (Remarks lost during announcement) -. AlinGlq: ·you're turning that -© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. I want all of you to know Do you know that you're being disHow Do you know thtyou're being segregated? criminated against? Do you know all these things that white society is doing to you? can you give me that kind of hogwash" Mr. if you'd been around (drovmed out by Announcer) \'le'll expand on these and other points under discussion in just a moment.

Bucluey: and I ~hink Of what? I think people like Stokeley Carmichael and Rap Brown do a great deal of harm. Hriat . Mr. Alinsky: When you say it's bad -Yeah. And I that which you take is yours. Mr o Buckley: v. Your philosophy is cause they're Negro.Ii 1 '-I'vlr. Because it's much more than that. but you have done harm. Alinslq: Mr. Curiously -. . might we not? But do you think that the Blacks of this country are going to sit around waiting for this -. Alinsky: attitude. Alinsky: Aborted'? That's right. I ~ 1 Mr. alld only that v1hich you see exists. it seems to lUe -Do you know what happened down tlJcre'? © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Sure you are. (Laughing) I'm not.this mythical love-charity business that you're talking about? Mr.we might have on (unintelligible). I I 1 1 Mr. think this is a pretty distressing philosophy.that's an aborted over-simplification. lie (unintelligible word) differently.Mr.. Buckley: No. Bucluey: 11r. Alinsky: Mr. really sort of solipsistic. University. You're not going to get a man you're not going to get men. Buckley: Mx'. I take that as a compliment. ~ that you have done less harm. Bucluey: I think that the Blacks in this country huve friends. and I don't think you want someone (unintelligilie) in authority -Mr. Buckley: (Breaking in) 'Hell. ~nlY The people -.. including certain persons like Jacques Maritain wouldn't be buying an approach and be approving of it on the -. l\linsky: . and they have people who think of themselves as friends -- I iI J I 1 Mr.you Just exist. Alinsky: Mr. Hell. this is a harm that you don't do to peqie simply beYou do them to anybody who buys your philosophy. Buckley: Mr o Alinslq: We might have -.curiously.on a basis which you have just propounded. that's -. It's a very warped 1 Mr. (Laughter) Mr. Alinsky: Mr. He views it differently. Buckley: I know. Buckley: Uh-hll1l1lll1.as bad about Hoodlawn? Hell. only that power which you exercise is exercisable. including many religious leaders.

generally. no. no. and words in "Con~entarj' 16. Buckley: Shall 'VIe talk about that'? © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. we're going to make it inwossible for Chicago to continue (unclear word) co~ercial or civic life at all. isn't it? No. Mr.~00 about what happened there.this is what they usually say at this turn in the discussion -Mr.I was an example of it on the proxy side. as you know. this is a program of things we .I reject them for a very nimple reason because they're no longer effective. Alinsky: Hell. Buckley: Mr. Nuw..this is Vintage Alinsky. Alinsky: Mr.II read that? 15. . Buckley: is the same thing.. Mr. corporate economy. tie-ups and the rest of it. Now we're involved -.insky: Mr. yeah -. Look. Now. Alinsky: \. Mr.. there's -. Buckley: Hell. Alinsky: No. you reject the methods used in Woodlawn? j Well.we're involved in a whole modern. That's that's old vintae. the hell with process. that "lasn't.which is ineffective is no longer even a tactic. Oh. But what do you mean by it brol. Buckley: You're saying this happened since 1960? Yeah -. Buckley: I see. i j want. Buckley: Mr. and if you don't give it to us. Alinsky: and you've got to deal on a whole different level. no.correct. Alinsky: Sure~ Mr. Mi'.this happened the last couple of years.e. Buckley: (Continuing) Yeah. what I mean is that when you say. Can I proceed to discuss Mr.:e dO'wn process? '-'Mr. \. you mean this is a you. And it was done by some'body very enthusiastic about you. it seems to me that what's wrong with Woodl~wn Mr. great marches on Washington. Yeah -.and from a left-wing magazine. the traffic rfhis -.assuming it wasn't incorrectly reported. Mr. A tactic . Alinsky: 'rhe sit-ins at City Hall. The Edstman Kodwt fracas Mr. University. Correct -.. J'J.. " Mr. you can say. v/hat's wrong is that it that is a way of achieving power which breaks down the structure of process. that's wrong "lith. Buckley: 'I'hat wasn't a misquotation? Hr. for instance. I can't eat process -.!1 proxY' is a nlore (unintelligible) No.

m. I said that revolution is primarily Van -. That's superb. thcy today are in full command of their own urban renewal program. but this is during the stage of Hhcn you have to polarize. l\linsl\y: that cynical. you 'Till not be cmployed on these projects. Buckley: No.many of them were two and three times over fugitives from bulldozers. they -. But let me suggest this before you get 17. unless you integratc. University. Bucldey: j . . on the so-called mystical process which you are talking lilaSS V about -. is one of the staunchest allies of the whole Do you know that? Woodlavffi organization. Mr. As a consetluence of' their E!:E.you had a large of about 100. 'l'hat before 'Vloodla. and say. Alinsky: And I could give you all kinds of what happened in terms of education of people with them. conflict~ And I suppose you would call Well.a series of revolutions are necessary to walce progress.Mr. so that today.000 Negroes viho were just a rootless.there again. even the University of Chicago.I'll put it the other way. floating. I at all. Alinslq: No. Wl1ich are notoriously segregated. and I'm delighted to hear it. They were utterly demoralized. Not only that. They were on the verge of 'being bulldozed again out into another slum. Buckley: 'llremendous. because I know that you were very critical and assumed that they ivould never come around to their senses.which vTaG a bitter adversary. yeah. Mr. Mr. Mx'. Alinsky: away from it. Mr. disenfranchised group 'of people who had been under urban renewal -. I said the difference betiveen a Liberal and a radical is that the Liberal And on the is the guy . which at that time v my alma mater -. Mr.~ No.{ho vTalks out of the room vThen the argument turns into' a fight.the city and the government both agreed that they would be their own devclopers which means that they can turn to the building and trades unions. and what they've done through the power of thcir own activity. I think you suid that the diffurence between the radical and' the Liberal is the difference between the man who believes thut revolution -. other thing that you vvcre tulking about on rev:iutions. organization. there again -. I said that evolution is a chronological term usell by non-p:ltrticipating historians to denote a tilJlC sequence of a whole series of' l'evolutions © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. I don't care what we talk about. you say that conflict precedes !:!:!SL progress . A:3 a mutter of fact.

~. Buckley: Hell. Now. I think that the most insidious. is a debate in Congress contr. Mr.yeah. ~ sure~ the Woodlawn operation involved coni'lict -. I'll buy it. University. conflict.isn't this once again one more expression of your belief Mr. Hell. . Mr. Bucluey: So people are fired off mass media for controversy. . !conflict a nasty word. J\linsky: No. can't one aehieve progress by reason or must it be by a conflict of force? . relations -. the most subversive force that has ever entered the American scene is what I would call Madison Avenue public the word.moral hygiene. have a stake in the tolera- tion of controversy.)'lersy in the sense that you are talking about? © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Alinsky: Mr. For instance. Can I quote you exactly? Quotes: is no evolution without revolution. don't you understand the reason it came into ~being was .then they call it evolution. Buckley: All right. I thinl{ that controversy is the matrix of everything creative that comes out of life. don't youthinm the reason -. 18. Alinsky: Mr. do you -. And controversy a very nasty word. I'll show you it to you after No. obviously. without -- because of' the Woodlawn operation and. but then then the question is what do you consider controversy.I. the moment you con~ up with a new idea promptly challenges the prevailing sacred power of the older idea and you've got a conflict going on.y: Mr. And rm asking whether or not progress can't be made Mr. Then you say.. Alinsl.it necessarily j "1 to. Buckley: II Hhere did you get that from? Harper' (Pause) s'~ Mr..synthesize into a major change -. You just finished discussing the fact tnat there exists in Chicago now something that is substantially better than was there five or six years ago.. Buckley: that what progress is made is made by some sort of a Hegelian sense of' controversy. l~ere Bucluey: Yes -.middle class -. Mr. V Mr. I don't believe so. but I want to ask you this. Alinsky: bvenon the basis of reason.. and this is the line which separates Liberals from radicals. and there are no revolutions' without conflict. (blurred word sounding like antithesis) and so on.lhich has made.

p01-ler.. Alinsl\y. But most people und.at quotations I throw at you of things you've Ivlr. and w~eH you look at me and tell me whether you believe what you're P~insl\y. a sinister word. san~ J IV Mr.it's I 1 Mr. I'm just correcting some of the misquotations (Laughing) (Laughter) Oh. Buckley. Mr. (Laughter) No. then I agree with you that conflict is probably necessary for the change of any point of view..e got it Now mightn't IUinsky students have felt that you v ~ j 1 as a result of a lot of discussion. for exanwle.we got Medicare in this country. in what people understand you to bc Perhaps you -. It ranges all through variops levels of life.J gets an idea of blood and barricades.Because there are those. .what I'lll trying to do is extract from you disbelief ~elieving. we got -. Alinsky. University. Buckley. Mr.. would need to shoot a few doctors or let a few people die for lack of medical attention before you'd have the kind of conflict that's necessary to midI-rife for Medicare? asking why can't you have -And I'm Mr. I would consider. Alinsl\y. the thing on revolutiono I think Social Security was I l . vlhy am I shocked? delighted~ 1~lis Mr. revolutionary. Buckley. Mr.I ! Mr. You see the problem is every -- I I l I j It does seem that we have a semantic difficulty. Mr. If you're saying. 19. Buckley. Alinsky: -- . I . Alinsky: I'm shows great progress. J\. No -. Bucluey: Well.~as revolutionary. therefore. and that sort. that conflict is what we're V Mr. Controversy ranges. (OVerlapping) Buckley. doing right now.I'm terribly refreshed that you aee constantly shocked that people -. I've been fascinated by your eyes in previous shows will I've watched you on. (Continuing but some of his remarks lost during simultaneous announcement) j\nd then you say. Alinsl\y: Announcer: Yeah. Mr. of course. (Announcer breaks in) Our debate on these varied issues will continue after this brief pause. and .ll words in the whole arena of action are all loaded. you know. all right. Buckley: Mr. I think Medicare . But for instance. -.:rstand you to be saying something much more -© Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr.

when John decides to marry Jane. Nay.but that's not true~ Mr. ~.I don't want to take a pass on it. A1ins~: Mr. then. And you sit down and negotiate a contract with us. I come into you -. particularly if you are General .:y: -.. if he doesn't.you're an employer.. that our progreso com~s as a response to a threat. I don't -Yea4I'~ Mr. threat. you mean.I represent negative conflict vis-a-vis positive. . let's say. and the reaction to the threat is wherein you get progresso 'I'm saying that all actions of history have come that way. Bucluey: Hell. Buckley: That's not true~ .. why don't sit down and in a mutual search for the common good. I'll have to polarize this and make you a villain. So . I see . you © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. in that sense? Mr. no. some people might say d suicidal design to it. of course. On your basis of reason. look.. There's going to be all kinds of conflict and strike threats and so on until you recognize a union \. no.. I Mr • . devoutlyin tIle act of reason. Alins~: can you imagine a labor organizer comdng into an employer and saying. as up against a positive approach -. saying very -.nd I am a literate labor organizer and believing And I say to you. Bucl<. and. Buckley: What was the tmreat -.I don't want to get -. Idee.:ley: Mr.Alins~: There doesn't necessarily have to be violence -I'm quite -.and what er -sticl~. Mr.let me put it to you this way. I don't want to go in and start organizing your people.want to .what is the relevant (Pause) Loneliness. Let's . and I'm now quoting some of the crHicism against me from a representative of the Joint Center up in Cambridge. 20. Alinsl~: Yeah -. this is simply your lingo here -.. et cetera.okay Let's not get into (blurred by overlap) No. as rational men committed to reason. see Well. University.f Motors or any one of the emrIDyers.l'. Alinsl<. Bucluey: Mro A1ins~: And what the understanding is closer to it than just our discussion. saying that I represent a negative approach. 'Yie Why don't 'VIe.your No.. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky: Then you're reducing threat to a state that's sort of meaningless.very unreservedly. mutual search for cooperative common good. Mr.t here. V Mr.Mr.

. I hear people Mr. . on the basis of rational reason? Mr. Buckley: ! 1 I'm going to say this is simply a technique of clever old iUinslty.ker ones. Alinsky: Come on.(overlap) No.jeur is . Alinsky: You're not gonna do it. Alinslty: I don't think i\mericU:'lworks that way. so I'm going to j J !. no. Mr. no .I:orce majeur and you have to yield to it. Buclt1ey: Vtalk. iUinsky: Darwinistic? Yeah. No. and you can Sqy there Your dilemma that you posed to me a moment Buckley: is a certain i:unount of conflict involved there. Mr. Buckley: I'm going to say that you're going to have to convince me that it is for the good of everyone involved that they should be unionized. Buckley: Mr. have to go down there and organize. Buckley: You know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm convinced by things all the time. I read books.21. You know exactly what I'Ill talking about. Do you Imow of any other way I can convince them? Look. You're going to call Bellevue and have them pick me up and go over there for You blOW that. Alinslty: spinal tests. No.you have a very sort of a Darwinistic view ·1 '~ 1 of how things happen. Buckley: You Itnow what you're going to do No. you know. University. no. Mr. 'rhere's a certain amount of progress made because you eat J ! Mr. ~IT. You have a very -. no. Buckley: I 1 Mr. You see 'I j ~i i Mr. looko I believe in the essentials of capitalism. And you're not going to do it~ Mr.you're getting off the lever. It seems to me just -. and so and sO forth -- Mr. Mr.t force m8. Alinsky: You knmv any other '!tray I'm going to be able to convince you? i{ell. Mr. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. iUinsky: Mr. what does the D:J. Alinsky: No. Mr.rketplace decide in a situation like that. give me a contract recognizing a labor union here. ~gO is another \-ray of saying. no. The marketplace decides tho. Buckley: the weak ones and the weak ones eat the wel:l. Mr.

Buckley: He has. J I If I'm made to yield. let's tuH. fifteen.there are poor people who will tell you their lives have 'rheir lives have been changed to the point they cease having ". Ever since the Civil 'VIaI' and before thut. cutting across through this color barrier. I don't know what fairyland you're living in. it really is al~ a fairyland when you tell me that Billy Grahwn has had Mr. Do you think that there would have been any change as fur as civil rights legislation. ubout it for a moment. There -. et cetera.J. I'm not even going to tul\:e the period of slavery in. U this is to add anything ne"T to the discussion.1Ilinsl\:y: I donlt know -. that's my fai¢and. this whatever -. Alinsky: A poor person ceases to have such a materialistic fixation.! Mr. thirty years in the United States. this is a Christian.insl~: Of course. if you -Let me tell you -' J lvlr. twenty. even if I disapprove of it.whatls Ulore is a philosopl~ of life. P. The answer is. then I won't. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. iUinsl~: All right. then I will. The whole purpose -~ 11r. segregated churches. provided you don't go so far and say. Buckley: lIme:dca. an~unt there was a tremendous of change during the preceding ten. such a materialistic fixation as you tend to have \'Then you view the country around you. affect on thepoor of America. I think" many more people are convinced not by factions of pow~r but by the precepts of people they listen internal to and by some sort of/search and do the right thing. Mr. the country you don't kno\-T. 14r. Buckley: Mr. and on a rational basis all the anthropologists have come up '-T1t11 their various findings. '-Testern civilized nation. But I doult sec that 22. been changed by Billy Graham.The answer is if I don't have to yield on a point that I disavprove of. come on. .. Oh. University.you know the kind of America you're liVing in. They've constantly been talking about the fact that the Mystical They go to ChUl'ch and they hear all this in nice. as far as many of the breakthroughs that have occurred -- l. Body of' Christ knO\-TS no coloX' line.

fawn over No. Mr. Certain values that al'C at the very top of the hierarchy •. I donlt ignore -A spiritual component.yeah. Alinsky: Mr.if you're fighting for a free open society.have talking about people. Buckley: ~tr •.. You're a very bright man and America made it possible in pa. too. Alinsky: Mr. I think we not going to talk exclusively about Black America. Alinsky: Because you especially love having the priests and rabbis (unclear -. Alinsl\y: cockroach~s ] that Billy Graham would have been preaching on. Buckley: Mr. Yeah. they!deservffiyour consideration occasionally And it seems to me that these people understand that there is a component in you tend to ignore. I'm sure he would. Alinsky: It's very important that I don't because -. Buckley: Mr.. . I 1 J -. you're fighting for a free open society for people. Buckley: Umm. University. but let me tell you something tllat I found very little businesses on and rats and everything else living back in the store and so on with anything If you call that u materialistic . you make fun of it.because if' you're -. trying to get away from -Mr. I don't ignore that spiritual component.~insky: ! I'm sure that Billy Graham would try to get away from cockroaches. j ~liVing which Mr.rt. we're . don't you? I don' t'~ and get it. Alinsl\y: . It's very important. Alinsky: I went -. you know why I don't ignore it. I'll accept that one. no. ~V Mr. you're fighting for certain values.fixation UMr.trying to get avlay from cockroaches -. Buckley: Mr. Alinsky: only point is tllat having got away from the cockroaches. it's a Oh. Buckley: you?) Mr. You thinyjkind of a laugh.l\linsky: Mr.Mr. Buckley: Well. I wouldn't go into a © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. Mr. even if they're not Black. Bucluey: Mr. what then do you do? ~~ I don't think he's done a thing as far as the liberation that is now coming j among the Black Mr.1' you're fighting for people and "lith people. and o1/tr.

vIe' re inViting you in -.we're funding this organization program.that sounds like something that Ired Sorenson would have vlritten. Buckley: uh-hm.ey: Mr. and those values here. Alinslq: Aren't the churches saying that themselves'? Son~ Aren't they saying are. . Alinsky: Oh -.lait u minute. Not the spiritual life that you're talking about. Mr. Mr. University.Cs anybody laugh in the Black ghettoes because that is actuallJ a basic question of life. -.nity and organi ze it if -. I tice it." COll1l1ll. and as a consetluence of the organization. it comes off a button. Maybe he bolwmianizes after hours. One of those buttons.:linslq: Mr.. Alinslq: 24. Ah. Is there? I didn't know that.you're confusing one with the other in terms of those vlho profess to prac~hose are the ones I've been after. Mr. (Laughtel No.. It Announcer: Mr. But-- Isn't the big (lUestion today no longer is there life after deu.th but really is there life after birth'. Mr. Alinslq: Uh-hmm. © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. '. Buckl. Not the values. Alinsky: Mr. Bucltley: Mr • . and the ~ purpose of it.l. vIe ilTant you. Buckley: Mr.if they were to say to me. Buckley: Hr.that the spiritual values don't accomplish ClJlurred word in overlap). let's say it's a southern white community for segregation -.fUinsky: Mr. the Judeo-Christian moral principle that are involved er -. I mean the last part of' it. Because the democratic way includes certain of these high values. Buckley: Yeah. I ''1Ould say to them that tha.and that's the democratic way -Mr. !'. and 1'm coming in to fight you on it.:b is not the democratic v/ay. It's not the Idnd of' button that mal\. Buckley: Mr. you know. Buckley: may be that you simply vie"l -Mr. they say democratically we have voted 99-1. but your whole approach seems to be directed (7 remarks are drowned ~ out when announcer breaks in) on the assumption 'He interrupt briefly and rejoin our participants in this interesting discussion.

especially since it isn't growing since -. in 1965 is at leatt distinctive. Buckley: Mr. Minsky: No. you've got to kill your But you do have a view of society which Oi. ".rondering vn1ether you ever got J Mr. 1:-'11'. I tell you "rhy I say I can't tell.Mr. JQinsky: Mr. I'TIl going to hea.since when you said that? Mr. do you -. University. No\'! let's not underestimate this operation. pray for the elimination of cockroaches and that shall be done unto you.. Mr.I can't see anything 6f-~RY I can't even see one cockroach that turned over dead on the basis of any Graham' s ~xhortations of Billy on this particulal' level. Bucluey: Viall Street Journal. UMr.'! -. (Laughter) It is more or less generally assumed that however fervent a believer you are.rn cockroaches and do something for yourself. everything. Alinsl~: ill1at are you quoting from now? IIHarper's. Buckley: Hell. in all the ghettoes I've been in. Mr. Can't you tell? I was •. it's gro\'!ing. II V Mr • Alir:sl~: Do you have definite information on it? Mr." (Lo:ughLd') © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. I don't leno. Buckley: I thought that was some -But you don't think that the John Birch Society is a great threat now. I would like very much to huve it -. Did you get around to reading that (unintelligible) of' Unioll rl'heological of' Means and ~nds.1I Mr. Oh. Bucl>. Mr. sir. Alinsky: Look. Alinsky: V11r. didn't you.!' about that tonight from Handon House. .. I' . Buckley: Isn't it grOWing? No. no.hat you were most worrying about "ras the John Birch Society. Alinsky: Mr. Oh. For instance. and in this \lay (rest unclear) -Mr. Buckley: You really read that. Buckley: No. yeah. Alinsky: Not the book that was pro:nised in 19G6but has not yet been published? No.n glad to heal. Buckley: (La ughter) Mr. er 25.ley: If I rrk'W say so.especially I'm very much interested in you (?) in Means and Ends.' that. you said in 1965. Minsky also laughs. around to reading er -Mr. that's a pretty vulgar observation because Billy Graham is not the apostle of the faith that says.

Mr. You've got better lines that I have. I do consider this a very definite revolutionary period 'because it is a I have alvlays said that I am opposed to violence unless it is By life itself. in your speech you referred I'd like to address mY question to Mr. you will consult me. Alinsky: haven't you? (After laughing) Oh. Alinsl~. Now. with that in j 1 mind. literally. Sir. Alinsky.change. University. . and if you do. dignity and Announcer: ~- Our time has just about run out. \. John's University. Buckley: Society in the future. do you consider the present time another revolutionary period. periodpi' enormous . Alinsky: Questioner: vlliat speech are you talking about? Well. Alinsky: Mr. Our thanks now to Mr. Alinsl~: Yes. Buckley and the students at St. (To audience) Yes.o 1 Mr. Sir. in the discussion that has been carried on this far. Perhaps before you say anything about the John Birch (Laughter) Mr. 'x- * -x- * v © Board of Trustees of the Leland Stanford Jr. do you consider violence just may be a means to your ends? Mr. Buckley: Question: I'll be glad to. many times to the Revolutionary Period in American history. (Laughing) ! 'I Let's have some questions. I mean equality. I Mr.Ithe only possible recourse that a person has for life itself. yeah. sir. you have your ovm pipe lines in that direction. Much better. Hr.

Sign up to vote on this title
UsefulNot useful