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NUNC ET UNDIQUE

aq da yvelgan

NUNC ET UNDIQUE
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sarCevi:
siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva demonebis Sesaxeb................................................... 3 cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi ...20 meSvide .........................................................................32 aq da dRes .................................................................49 dialogi ......................................................................67

siyvarulis, mecnierebis da sxva demonebis Sesaxeb

beki:

rogorc aris TviTon mixvdi Tu avtorma gaTqmevina?

heklberi: daiwye exla sad iyavi manam, sanam avtori gadawyvetda Sens daweras

heklberi: amas winaT isev mecnierebaze iyo kamaTi beki: raRac daweres, xo?

beki:

ara,

sad

iyo

avtori

manam,

sanam

es

azri

gauCndeboda? anda, kidev ukeTesi, rogori iyo avtori manam, sanam es azri gauCndeboda am samyaroSi, me da Sen rom varT, es sulis gamosawrTobi kiTxvaa, iq, sadac avtori cxovrobs ara, sruliad legitimuri da azriani, samyaros rom asaxavs.

heklberi: ho, TiTqos viRacas unda rom Cvens StatSi mecniereba daRupos da gaanadguros beki: raRaca albaT unda ganadgurdes raRaca ara..

heklberi: a? beki: TiTqmis. me politikosebis mxridan ar

heklberi: mTlad ar aris is rac unda iyos, magram ara uSavs.. ratom aris ai es Tavi kargi mecnierebaze dialogis dasawyebad? beki: imdenad kargia, rom avtors is ori suleluri SeeZlo sulac ar Cvens StatSi

vgulisxmob heklberi: aba? beki: TavisiT.

heklberi: eg ra martivi pasuxia beki: rTuli ginda?

eTqmevinebina

fraza

mecnierebis ganadgurebis Sesaxeb. kargia imitom, rom imas, rasac dRes mecnierebas uwodeben, Zalian gansxvavdeba

heklberi: Zalianac ara, magram ai im TavisTvis, exla zemodan rom giyurebs, xom unda iyos gasagebi beki: mag Tavis motana kargi sababia mecnierebaze

imisagan, rac mecniereba hgoniaT heklberi: anu? beki: anu, ra hgoniaT mecniereba Tu ras uwodeben

saubris dasawyebad heklberi: saubris ki ara, dialogis

mecnierebas?
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heklberi: nu maimunob, orive, an jer pirveli beki: fiqroben, rom mecniereba, iZleva ufro aris is, rac

sxvebi; n) es esaa larnaki rom gatexes; o) TiTqos Sors rom dafrinaven. beki: sulac ar hgavs hgavs ramdenime saukunis Semdeg es

Seimecnebs

samyaros,

komfortuli

cxovrebis saSualebas, igonebs iaraRebs, maT Soris sasikvdilos, anadgurebs garemos, igonebs garemos SenarCunebis xerxebs, inarCunebs mas, axangZlivebs

heklberi:

gansazRvrebac msgavsi iqneba anu, Cven ganvmarteT, ra hqvia imas, rasac akeTebeb isini, vinc mecnierebis saxeliT moqmedeben da vinc mecnierebi arian.. beki: iseve, rogorc Cinur ganmartebaSi cxovelebi arian

adaminis sicocxles, amcirebs adaminis sicocxles, uzrunvelyofs sistemebis mdgradobas, da ase Semdeg. heklberi: es CamonaTvali Cinuri enciklopediis

isini, visac hqviaT cxovelebi heklberi: sasacilo es moxerxebuli anu, ganmartebaa SeiZleba da arc ise

ganmartebas hgavs beki: romels?

usasruloa,

usasrulod

heklberi: ai amas, avtors rom mohyavs Tavis wignSi - cxovelebi iyofian Semdegnairad: a) imperatoris sakuTreba; b) balzamirebulebi; g) moSinaurebulebi; d) ZuZuTa goWebi; e) sirenebi; v) zRaprulebi; z) upatrono ZaRlebi; T) am klasifikaciaSi Sesulebi; i) yvelas rom Tavs esxmian, TiTqos gagiJebuliyvnen; k) usasrulod bevrni; l) aqlemis bewvisagan

gagrZeldes da Sesabamisad, potenciurad SeuZlia marTlac yvela cxoveli moicvas.. beki: anu, egreTwodebuli aRweriTi ganmartebaa, ar xsnis,

aramed CamoTvlis.. heklberi: mainc ratom gansxvavdeba is rac hgoniaT

mecniereba imisagan, rac mecniereba aris? beki: principSi, rodesac raRacaze fiqrs iwyeb, is raRaca

damzadebuli Zalian wvrili funjiT daxatulebi; m)

ukve gansxvavdeba imisagan rac is manamde iyo, sanam fiqrs daiwyebdi


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heklberi: es yvela SemTxvevaSi asea? beki: me mgoni ki. rogorc ki raRac xdeba

idumalebiT ki ar arian warmodgenilebi, da Cven Cveni sizarmacis gamo ver vxedavT maT arss aramed isini arian rogorc TavisTavadgasagebni da mxolod Cveni survilis mixedviT xdebian isini Rrmebi da gansxvavebulni

TavisTavad cxadi magaliTad, mecniereba, samyaros mowyoba, saxli, Seni misi megobari buneba xdeba. anu, es am

TavisTavadgasageboba

sxvadasxva fenebis da siRrmeebis Semcvelebi beki: da Semdeg icvlebian kidec anu, Cven rom gvgonia,

SemTxvevaSi sagani, myofi, adamiani, aris yvelaze ufro TavisTavadgasagebi.. heklberi: auf, es ra filosofiur gaugebrobaSi magdeb.. beki: ara, ubralod gixsni, ratom xdeba yvelaferi

rom vicode rame, niSnavs vicode misi warmoSoba, amis sapirispiroa da niRbavs da faravs. heklberi: niRbavs da faravs, Semodis sami filosofosi.. beki: maimunob... heklberi: kargi, davseriozuldebi platonis da

sxva, rodesac masze fiqrs iwyeb heklberi: Sen ginda Tqva, rom TavisTavadgasageboba sagnis romelic icvleba? beki: ho, me geubnebi, rom Cven TavisTavadgasagebTa vcxovrobT, da nebismieri cvlilebis bunebaa Cveni da ara Cveni damokidebuleba, mixedviT

sokrates damkidebulebac sinaTlisken da gasagebobisaken swrafva amis SeniRbva/arcodnaa erTis mxriv, xolo meore mxriv amis damalva beki: risi damalva?

survilis/ganwyobis

heklberi: rom saganze azrovneba mis Secvlas iwvevs da is ukve aRar aris TavisTavadgasagebi bunebis, amitom im

samyaroSi

mizani aris TavisTavadgasagebobis Secvla heklberi: ise, rom dafiqrde, SeiZleba marTlac ase iyos _ sagnebi da sityvebi Cvens winaSe raRac

momentSi amovardnilia samyarodan beki: magram mere xom qceva isev da xdeba misi am axali sagnis

TavisTavadgasagebad

TavisTavadgasagebi
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samyaros nawilad gaxdoma _ Tuki es azrovneba moaxerxebs daamtkicos, rom aseTi axali sagani

komunikacia Semdgaria. arseboben miRebuli da dadgenili konsruqtebi da Cven enobrivi TamaSebis da Jestebis eniT vaxdenT am konstruqtebis gadarCeva/SeTavazebas.

ufro gamosadegia da praqtikuli, vidre Zveli? heklberi: ki, rogor ara. am SemTxvevaSi rTulia gza da

heklberi: es xom Zalian martivi sqemaa, erTi miTxari, ra konstruqts pirovnebasTan? sTavazob roca seqsi ginda konkretul

TavisTavadgasagebobisaken

sakmaod

gaaCnia ra sagnebs da sityvebs exeba saqme. beki: saganSi TavisTavad ar araviTari unda siRrme da

beki:

arsebobs

ufro

rTuli

modelebi, SeTavazeba

magaliTad yoveldRiur

dafaruli

azrebi

arsebobdnen

siyvarulis

dros,

rodesdac

potenciurad - Tuki es sityva varga am azris gadmosacemad msjelobebis azrs.. heklberi: igive exeba adamianebsac sagnebis mimarT SeiZleba amas SevurigdeT, magram sxva Cvennairis mimarT? iqac igive viTarebasTan gvavs saqme? beki: me mgoni ki Soris ubralod, hm, ubralod, rTuli raRac iq mTeli es samyaroa, Tumca am

urTierTobasTan SedarebiT rTuli bunebisaa da aseTive rTul, arayoveldRiur da aqtiur Tanxmobas Seni moiTxovs momavali

mere

mTeli

samyaroc

kargavs

meorisagan,

faqtiurad,

niSnavs

partinioris bunebis, hi, hi, arsis, Secvlas heklberi: partniori beki: SeiZleba egrec avxsnaT.. anu, Sen amiT meore aba ra, iyo sxvisi, gaxda Seni seqsualuri

adamianis, hi, hi, bunebaSi seriozuli koreqtivi Segaqvs heklberi: ho, rac ar xdeba bordelSi iq seqsi aranairi siaxle ar aris arc SenTvis da arc Seni partniorisaTvis beki: ho, iq seqsi sagnebis da sityvebis

adamianebis struqtura

TavisTavadgasagebobis komunikacia aris

muSaobs:

konkretuli konstruqciis SeTavazeba meoresaTvis mis Sesaxeb, da Tu es konstruqti misaRebia, maSin

TavisTavadgasagebobaSi moZraobs
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heklberi: iq Secvlis SeTavazeba iqneboda bordelis macxovrebels ise daewyo qceva, TiTqos bunebis

beki:

da

mere

ucbad

viRaceebi

aRmoaCenen,

rom

is

qarizamatuli tipi gaxda, farTo sazogadoeba . . . heklberi: sxvadasxva sifarTovis sxvadasxva SemTxvevaSi beki: macale, sazogadoeba Tanaxmaa zogi sixaruliT, zogi orWofobiT, dahyves mis nebas

Secvlas Tavazobde.. beki: albaT, magram ara mgonia aseTi TanamSromeli

bordels aetana heklberi: aseTive bunebis unda iyos

heklberi: Zalian moxerxebulad waramodgine qarizmatuloba rogorc seqsualuri aqtis winapiroba beki: SeiZleba, magram sinamdvileSi . . .

qarizmatulobac, albaT.. beki: me mgoni ki.. qarizmatuloba am SemTxvevaSi konstruqciaa, droSi gawelili:

SeTavazebuli

heklberi: sinamdvileSi? beki: ukacravad, Tundac, es erTi procesis sxvadasxva

mmarTvelobis, liderobis mosurne sakuTar mizans/ obieqts sTavazobs bunebis Secvlas, misi

gamovlenaa Sen azrovneb TavisTavadgasageb movlenaze, Sedixar sasiyvarulo uriTierTobaSi, xdebi qarizmatuli politikosi jgufTan Tu Sen ubralod amiT komunikacias amyareb axal

TavisTavadgasagebobis gadasinjvas heklberi: misi TavisTavadgasageboba ra aris? beki: gaaCnia ra unda qarizmatulobis SemTavazebels erTi jgufis, erTi Tvisebis da xasiaTis

arsebuli

TavisTavadgasagebobis

revizias iTxov da aRwev, Tu warmatebuli xar heklberi: magram xom unda arsebobdnen gauziarebeli

admianebis, Tu, qveynis xalxis lideroba.. heklberi: aaa, is eubneba rom unda gaxdes maTi lideri da raRac drois ganmavlobaSi sxvadasva meTodebiT aCvenebs rogori mamaci, mzrunveli,

SeTavazebebi.. .. beki: ki, da aseTia filosofia

heklberi: vai?

principuli da ase Semdeg aris...


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beki:

ho, filosofiuri teqstebi, Tavisi sirTulis

beki:

Sedegi macivari, televizori, raketa, Satli,

gamo, da Cven Cvens droSi me mgoni mivadeqiT im etaps, sadac filosofiuri teqstis erTaderTi

avtomati.. gavagrZelo? mecniereba axali TavisTavadgasagebi sagnebiT avsebs Cvens samyaros, umateben mas sagnebs..

maxasiaTebeli sirTule xdeba heklberi: albaT beki: nu mawyvetineb. es teqstebi Tavisi sirTulis..

Sesabamisad, mecnierebas macivriT aqvs nayidi indulgencia heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba ganwirulia

warmatebulobisaTvis sanam sagnebiT avsebs samyaros? beki: ho, Tanac, aq ormxrivi procesia erTis mxriv

heklberi: an usargeblobis beki: anu, nu mawyvetineb, sirTulis gamo ar ziardeba, maTSi aRwerili TavisTavadgasagebebis

adamiani sul ufro da ufro xdeba raRac teqnikuri Cvevebis matarebeli magaliTad, operaciuli sistemis gamoyenebis Cvevis, TavisTavadgasagebi xolo mecnierebis mier mowodebuli sagani swored imitom xdeba

gaazreba/revizia rogorc wesi rTuli gasagebia amitom, isini ganwirulebi arian

warumateblobisaTvis heklberi: mecniereba? beki: rogorc iqna davbrundiT saTaurTan karga or-sam-oTxgverdiani gadaxveva

TavisTavadgasagebi, rom am operaciul sistemaSi xdeba misi SefuTva heklberi: a? beki: aba warmoidgine, macivris gamoyenebisaTvis rTuli gakeTeba rom giwevdes, avtomatis yoveli

heklberi: gamogvivida.. beki: aiZulebs

gamoTvlis sxva iaraRi aqvs, riTac is

mecnierebas

srolisas tyviis traeqtoriis qaRaldze gamoTvla.. aravin ar iyidida maT da ar gamoiyenebda heklberi: yovel SemTxvevaSi Zalin cota TviTon

TavisTavadgasagebobis

sakuTari

gadaxedvis/reviziis gaziarebas heklberi: ra?

mecnierebi albaT, da am sagnebis gamoyeneba/warmoeba rTuli


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da Zviri iqneboda da sul idgeboda sakiTxi mecnierebis gamousadegrobis Sesaxeb.. beki: eg zustad aRwers filosofiis garemos

beki:

ho, meti ra aris azrovnebis istoria, Tu ara

sagnebis Semqmnelis da gardamqnelis Zebna? igive SeiZleba iTqvas literaturaze literaturac amravlebs samyaros sagnebiT/sityvebiT wignebiT, failebiT, teqstebiT isic TavisTavadgasagebobis amocanis amoxsnaa heklberi: ho da rac ver ixsneba da rac warumatebelia mecnierebaSi da literaturaSi aris filosofia da sxva ara mgonia, misi msgavsni beki: ase pirdapir?

filosofia aris macivris yoveli gamoyenebisaTvis yinulis Seqmnis procesis Tavidan bolomde Catareba da tyviis srolisaTvis yoveli tyviis traeqtoriis gamoTvla sxvadasxva formulebiT heklberi: maxvilgonieria, magram

filosofosebi amaze dageTanxmon beki: nu dameTanxmebian, nugeSad ramdenime gverdiT

heklberi: ho beki: mokled, azrovnebis istoria ase gamogvivida

ukan gadafurclon da aagon TaviTavadgasagebobis filosofia, vCuqni.. heklberi: ra cinizmia, Tanac Tavxeduri beki: ratom arc araferi ikargeba bunebaSi

heklberi: gamogvivida? me mxolod gismen beki: geSinia? filosofia da sxva yvela mas mimsgavsebuli aris reliqturi, memkvidreoba romelic daicala sityvebis da sagnebis Seqmnis unaridan, da mainc SenarCunda albaT, warmatebuli filosofiaa, sagnebis, an araswori warmodgenis gamo, rom raki literatura da mecniereba iqidan gamovidnen, rasac mere filosofia ewoda, iqneb kidev moxdes rames gamosvla iqidano.. heklberi: ise, xandaxan xdeba kidec.. beki: magaliTad?
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heklberi: da mecniereba? beki: romelmac mecniereba miagno

TavisTavadgasagebi

ubralod, sagnebis Seqmnis gzas heklberi: filosofiur qvas?

heklberi:

magaliTad

filosofiuri

teqstebi

beki:

merwmune, Cemo patara megobaro, samecniero da sazogadoebebma rac ar unda amtkicon,

xandaxan gavlenas rom moaxdens literaturaze da mecnierebaze.. beki: egec xdeba, marTali xar mag imediT

filosofosTa

macivari yovelTvis gadamwyvet sityvas ambobs heklberi: SinaarsiT maSin es gamodis, rom Tavisi struqturiT mecniereba da da

arsebobs eg reliqti rom iqneb rameze moaxdinos gavlena. magram es ise iSviaTad xdeba, rom

ori

mimarTuleba

anu,

literatura erT mxares xolo meore mxares filosofia principSi erTi da igivea.. beki: ho, Tu ar gaviTvaliswinebT raze azrovneben isini

filosofiis istoria asec SeiZleba warmovidginoT gavlenis moxdenidan gavlenis moxdenamde,

ramdenime saukuniani intervalebiT.. heklberi: magram gavlenebi xom arsebobs beki: ise, kacma ar icis, es gavlenebi marTla

da raze fiqroben, da ra sagnebi undaT rom gaakeTon mecnierebis da literaturis fiqria, is aris dasawyisi amosavali da

TavisTavadgasagebebze

gavlenebia, Tu saerTo struqturebi heklberi: ras gulisxmob? beki: imas, rom me rom ar vicode, rom seriozuli naSromis ukan televizori an

amocanac aris sxva TavisTavadgasagebebis

-sagnebis da

sityvebis gamravleba. filosofia ki TavisTavadgasagebis gardaqmnas cdilobs, heklberi: iman rom Tqva, seirnoba rom uyvarda sagnebis gamravlebiT samyaros ver Seimecnebo beki: da ai swored es iyo wyalgamyofi ramac filosofia

samecniero

kondicioneri iWyiteba, ra Tqma unda, im teqsts bodvad Sevracxavdi, romelic ar iqneboda ufro zusti, vidre nebismieri cnobili Tu ucnobi

sxva gziT waiyvana heklberi: auf, aRmoaCine, xom Tavi da Tavi, SeeSvi am martinis wrupvas
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filosofiuri teqsti heklberi: magram samecniero sazogadoeba..?

beki:

kargi, kargi, xumrobac ar SeiZleba?

beki:

kargi.. sagnebis da sityvebis keTebas rac Seexeba, xom mecniereba araswori filosofiaa, romelic

heklberi: ho da imaze vlaparakobdiT, macivari rom iWyiteba mecnierebis uknidan beki: da rom sxvafriv iseTive misi warmoeba da

giTxari,

cdilobs sagnebis gamravlebiT gaigos TavisTavadgasageboba, filosofia ki araswori mecniereba, romelic

kvlavwarmoeba

gaugebaria,

rogorc,

TavisTavadgasagebSi CaRrmavebas cdilobs, da amiT aseve amravlebs sagnebs, rogorc ramdenime gverdis win

magaliTad filosofia.. . . heklberi: cotasTvis aris gasagebi beki: xo, magram es cota ar aris maTi arsebobis

vlaparakobdiT.. heklberi: mainc ar momwons Seni axsna Seni axsniT ar mesmis, rogoraa rom teqnika da sityva gamodinareoben raRac msjelobidan? beki: anu, macivari da leqsi?

garantia heklberi: magram saintereso sxvaa beki: ra?

heklberi: magaliTad, Tu es ori rame principulad erTniarad iqceva, ratom akeTebs erTi sagnebs, da meore ara? beki: vera

heklberi: ho beki: eg saintereso kavSiria rogor mravldebian

sityvebi da sagnebi.. Tavidan msjelobebs zedapiruli da Sedegobrivi kavSiri unda hqonodaT sagnebTan Toxis da najaxis gamogonebas, amas paleontologiac gvidasturebs, ar unda hqonoda metafizikuri msjelobebi wanamZRvrebad es msjelobebi, rom najaxi viRac RmerTma gamosWeda da mere misca adamianebs, post-najaxum unda gaCeniliyo heklberi: magram macivris SemTxvevaSi ase xom ar aris
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heklberi: qalis saxeli gaTqmevine beki: iaffasiani CanarTia, amiT Tavs Tavs veravis

moawoneb heklberi: mere ra, marto Sen unda ixumro?

beki:

ar

damimTavrebia

post-naJaxum

unda

yoveldRiur aRqmaSi warmatebuli saqmianobaa, raki misi Sedegi teqnikaa beki: sxvanairad rom vTqvaT, is rac xels gviSlis bodvad da gonebrivi uwesrigobis formad

gaCeniliyo saRi azriT, magram pirveli najaxi iseTi mouxerxebeli da uazro iqneboda, mxolod

saritualod Tu gamoiyenebdnen da mere moixvewdaixveweboda gamosayenebeli heklberi: iseve rogorc pirvel macivars samxedrosamecniero daniSnuleba Tu eqneboda da Semdeg rogorc yovledRiurobaSi

mecniereba

vaRiaroT, aris misi warmatebuli Sedegebi. Tumca, mkacrad rom daviTvaloT, ramdeni adamiani awarmoebs da ramdeni resursebi ixarjeba mecnierebis warmoebaze da Semdeg

Sevadarod is teqnikis warmoaebas da kvlavwarmoebas albaT Zalian mcire margi qmedebis koeficients miviRebT heklberi: magram getyvian, rom amis daTvla ar SeiZleba, rom erTi SexedviT umniSvnelo da uSedego moqmedebebi saboloo jamSi iZlevian Sedegs beki: SeiZleba, magram sanam teqnikis warmoeba ar Sewydeba,

moxdeboda misi samzareuloebSi dadgma.. beki: albaT ho.. Cven rom gvgonia, rom najaxi da

Toxi TavisiT gamogonebulia, xelmarjve ostatebis mier. es albaT araswori warmodgenaa, najaxs da Toxs jer ritualuri daniSnuleba unda hqonoda, da mere unda gadasuliyo sayofacxovrebo nivTebis kategoriaSi heklberi: hoda mivediT im daskvnamde, rom

da rogorc Cans ar Sewydeba, amas ver gavigebT heklberi: nu gavigebT mere.. beki: marTalia. xom mivediT daskvnamde, rom adamianis

mecniereba, miuxedavad imisa, rom struqturulad da socialuri arsebobis da sxva wesiT msgavsi ar gansxvavdeba

strquturul moqmedebebs saboloo jamSi erTi da igive forma aqvT.. da rom es yvela moqmedeba SeiZleba aRvweroT, rogorc sagnebis warmoebis da gamravlebis procesi

filosofiisagan,

saqmianobebidan,

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heklberi: exla xom ar vilaparakoT imaze, rogor xdeba TviTon am moqmedebebs SigniT es yvelaferi? beki: jer kargad rom movifiqroT, ra aris sagnebis

bolos

da

bolos

am

samyaroSi

axali

bmis

Seqmna,

seqsualur bmas vgulisxmob . . heklberi: laparakob beki: samagierod zusti bmis ra cinikuria, TiTqos ZaRlebze

warmoebis es ori wesi erTis mixedviT sagnebis warmoeba saganSive CaRrmavebiT da faqtiurad, sagnis gayofiT xdeba, meoris mixedviT arsebulisaTvis kidev maTgani msgavsi sxva sagnebis realobas damatebiT: qmnis da anu, ase pirveli amravlebs

heklberi: bavSvebis, iseve, rogorc mecnierebidan teqnikis? beki: daaxloebiT da yvelaferi SegviZlia davyoT am martivi

heklberi: xerxiT? beki:

sagnebs, meore imave realobaSi sadac sxva sagnebi imyofebian heklberi: anu, filosofia da mecniereba, ara? beki: mgoni eg Zalian gamartivebaa aseTi dayofa me universaluria da yvelanairi dayofis

yvelaferi, adamianebi, sistemebi,

heklberi: politikuric? beki: politikuric

heklberi: magaliTad? beki: magaliTad, totalitaruli sistema iseTia, romelic

safuZvelia adaminebic xom ori tipis arian isini, vinc darwmunebulebi arian, rom sakuTar

Tavisi arsebobis wyaros Tavis TavSive eZebs, rogorc ekonomikur, aseve politikur doneze.. heklberi: hi, hi, da demokratiuli, romelic Tavisi

TavSi naxaven yvealfris Zalebs, da sxvebi, romelic amisaTvis sxvaTa daxmarebas saWiroeben heklberi: anu, rogorc mistikosi da Seyvarebuli? beki: me mgoni kargi magaliTia mistikosis Sedegi

kavSirebis da bmebis gafarToebiT? beki: cota sasacilod gamoiyureba, magram egrea.. sxva

sxva relobis Seqmnaa, Seyvarebis ki bavSvebi, anda,

magaliTic aviRoT
13

heklberi: magaliTad mecniereba. beki: ki batono da SigniT mimarTuli da

heklberi: xandaxan najaxebsac, beki: maSin es ambavi ase uda movyveT: jer miTebi

teqstologiebi

literaturaTmcodneobebi,

amravlebdnen sagnebs, Semdeg mecniereba. miTebs mecniereba Caenacvla heklberi: eseigi, mecniereba mxolod imitom Caenacvla

gereT mimarTuli - eqsperimentuli da a.S. heklberi: maTematika? beki: Teoriuli pirvelebSi, gamoyenebiTi

miTebs, rom ufro warmatebulad da swrafad amravlebs sagnebs? beki: ho, ufro sworad, amitom gaxda dominanturi, miTebi xom ar gamqralan.. heklberi: ar gamqralan, magram sagnebis gamravlebis

meoreebSi... heklberi: kargi, SeveSvaT axla bmebis Ziebas, ar jobia isev davubrundeT rogor xdeba najaxebis da macivrebis keTeba? beki: modi cotas vimsjeleb: Tuki principulad

funqcia aSkarad mecnierebam CamoarTva.. beki: filosofia ki darCa imad rac iyo heklberi: vkiTxavT an garTulda, ramdenime filosofoss Tu

erTi da igivea najaxi da macivari, maSin xom unda davuSvaT isic, rom maTi Seqmnis mizezic erTi da igive unda iyos heklberi: modi SegeSvelebi: raki egrea, da rogorc adre vTqviT, Tu najaxs hqonoda, Tavidan maSin ritualuri misi wyaro

beki:

ise, gamodis rom mecniereba mistikosis meTodiT

gamoyeneba

unda

amuSavebs sakiTxs, da sagnebis gamravlebas - sxva sivrcis SeqmniT swavlobs heklberi: da bolos ra Sedegs miviRebT? beki: Zalian cota Tu dagvijerebs
14

miTebi/religiebi unda yofiliyvnen. beki: xoda gavagrZeleb Tu miTebi da religiebi

najaxebs akeTeben, xolo mecniereba macivrebs

heklberi: piriqiT rom gveqna? beki: anu, sagnebis gamravlebiT mivdgomodiT?

beki:

lamazia, magram naklebad sarwmuno. Cven marTalia,

jer miTebs viTvisebT da mere xdeba Cveni garemoSi Sesvla, magram yoveli miTi jer raRac garemo garemoSi da iqmneba, miTi, ase rom Tumca

heklberi: ho beki: albaT igives, an rac ukve momxdara

istoriulad

mere

filosofias saqme aRar aqvso, rom ambobdnen..

fsiqologiurad sul piriqiT heklberi: da rogorc xdeba es arekvla?

heklberi: davbrundeT, ra beki: ki batono, magram sad?

beki:

sakmaod

martivad:

is

ierarqiuli

struqtura,

romlic miTebSia gadmocemuli, gansakuTrebiT kosmogoniur miTebSi, TiTqmis zustad asaxavs im socialur

heklberi: ai iq, najaxebis da macivrebis mizezebze rom vlaparakobdiT beki: sadac vTqviT, rom najaxebi da macivrebi

struqturas, romlSic am miTebis xalxi cxovrobda heklberi: SegiZlia momiyve rogor? beki: rogor ara ai naxe: yvela kosmogoniuri miTi ase

miTebma da mecnierebebma warmoSves? heklberi: ho beki: kargi, gavagrZeloT miTebi ki rogorc

gamoiyureba - jer aris demiurgi heklberi: an kvercxi, an ixvi, an sxva rame beki: ho, mere es kvercxi

amboben, im socialuri garemos anareklebi arian, romelSic Cndebian xolme heklberi: an piriqiT beki: ra socialuri garemoebi arian miTebis

heklberi: an demiurgi beki: iyofa, iyofa an qmnis, an demiurgi qmnis kvercxs, romelic an kvercxi demiurgs, iyofa da qmnis damxmare

anareklebi? heklberi: amboben

Zalebs, RmerTebs, demonebs, arsebebs.. heklberi: mere?


15

beki:

mere es damxmareebi qmnian miwas, xilul

heklberi: ho, magram mecnierebaze amis Tqma SeiZleba? is xom eqsperimentebzea dafuZnebuli, sando da ueWvel

samyaros, Cven rom vicnobT da ase Semdeg. mere demiurgi marTavs yvelafers amas damxmareebis

Sedegebze beki: aba ra giTxra.. amdeni xnis laparakis, TiTqmis

saSualebiT.. heklberi: socialuri struqtura? beki: rom daakvirde, 20, 30, 40 saukunis

Tormeti gverdis Semdeg isev eqsperimentis ueWvelobaze laparakob heklberi: aba raze unda vilaparako? beki: ici ra, modi jer isev miTebs da mecnierebebs

ganmavlobaSi kacobrioba am struqturiT cxovrobda da dedamiwis _ zogierT anu adgilebSi exlac saTaveSi hyavs ase dgas

cxovrobs batoni, romlibic

struqturis mefe, mas

davubrundeT, da mere gadavideT eqsperimentebze, es male moxdeba heklberi: kargi beki: es naklebad gavrcelebuli azria, magram mecnierebis samyaros Sesaxeb socialuri garemos iseTive

imperatori, misi

vasalebi,

saxeliT

marTaven

saxelmwifos,

sofels, sabatonos heklberi: ase martivia? beki: met-naklebad. es struqtura zogan dResac

Teoriebi

anareklia, rogorc miTebi. aba naxe didi afeTqebis Teoria gviyveba, rogor warmoSva didma afeTqebam samyaros oTxi ZiriTadi urTierTqmedeba heklberi: rogorc didma RmerTma saSualo RmerTebi? beki: ho, da mere am oTxi ZiriTadi Zalis

SenarCunebulia

alag-alag,

formalurad,

zogan realurad.. es yvelaze Zveli struqturaa, romlic yvelaze didxans arsebobda da dResac

arsebobs, alag-alag..

urTierTqmedebiT rogor Seiqmna samyaro heklberi: vaa


16

beki:

didi afeTqebis Teoria albaT demiurguli

rom arseboben sxva ganzomilebebi da samyaroebi sxva araferia, politikuri Tu ara sainformacio miRebuli teqnologiebiT da

struqturis bolo Teoriaa.. sxva ufro saintersoa - atomis planetaruli modeli xom ici? heklberi: ai, centris garSemo rom brunavs

ZvrebiT

mravalfeniani,

ucentro

socialuri samyaro, sadac kavSirebis da bmebis realurad usasrulo SesaZeblobebi arsebobs: politikuri, iseve

elenetebi da rame? beki: ho. eg Teoria maSin Seiqmna, sazogadoebaSi

rogorc biologiuri samyaro mxolod erTerTia, misgan faqtiuri damoukideblobiT, Tumca masTan bmaSi, an sulac bmis gareSe, arseboben sxvadasxva xelovnebis, religiuri samyaroebi, sxvadasxva jgufebi, adre rom erT calkeul saxelmwifoSi marginalurs eZaxodnen da dRes ver daarqmev amas, radgan aqtualurad arian mTels msoflioSi da

Sinagani centris da periferiis sttruqturebi ukve karga xania moqmedebdnen socialuri struqtura, sadac zeviT da qveeviT ki ar aris mTavari, aramed SingiT da gareT guli SigniTaa, Sesabamisad

mmarTvelobac, periferia gareT. magram yvelaferi erTiania da nawilebi ar arian mTelis gareSe. aseTi strquturisaa magaliTad mecxramete-meoce saukunis saxelwifo, struqturas viciT nacionaluri efuZneba saxelwmifos mTeli, da sadac ideac am

aTasobiT, zogjer ki milionobiT wevrsac iTvlian heklberi: eg jgufebi xom Zalian fardobiTi iyo,

magaliTad, budistebi CvenTan marginaluri iyo, indoeTSi centraluri beki: ho, magram Tanamedrove socialuri samyaro imiT

garkveviT

centri-mamoZravebeli

periferia

amoZravebuli. heklberi: kide? beki: kide.. axali Teoriebi samyaros

gamoirCeva, rom yvela es jgufi rogorc calke samyaro ise arsebobs, kulturiT Tavisi da wesebiT ase da kanonebiT, me SeiZleba ekonomikiT davrCe da Cems

Semdeg.

mravalganzomilebianobas rom aRweren da amboben

samyaroSi, SeiZleba erTdroulad ramdenimeSi vixcovro.. es


17

samyaro mravacentriania da uperiferio.. me rom periferia mgonia, SeiZleba sxva socialuri

heklberi: Zalian ki gagvitaca am kavSirebis danaxvam, magram igive unda giTxra, rac cota gverdis win giTxari eqsperimentebis da dakvirvebebs ra vuyoT? beki: axsna martivia mecnieri uyurebs eqsperimentis an Sedegs da masSi arsebul konsrtuqcias

samyaros centri aRmoCndes da ase usasrulod.. heklberi: da Teoriebi, romlebic amboben.. beki: ho, romlebic amboben, rom es samyaro ar

dakvirvebis

aris erTaderTi, rom es adamiani ar aris erTaderTi vinc azrovnebs cxovelebic azrovneben da iseve cxovroben, rogorc adamianebi uyvarT, brazoben, fiqroben, da ase Semdeg am globaluri

usadagebs am Sedegis gadmocemas, da meti araferi.. heklberi: sul araferi? beki: TiTqmis

heklberi: anu, ambob, rom eqsperimentis da dakvirvebis Sedegsac socialuri struqtura gansazRvravs? beki: ho, magram martivad ara, gaxsovs, cota gverdis win

socialuri struqturis anareklia. heklberi: albaT isic ar aris SemTxveviTi, aseTi Teoriebi iq rom viTardeba, sadac am globaluri struqturis kvali kargad Cans aSS-Si, inglisSi.. beki: sainterso azria

rom vTqviT sagnebis gamravlebis mimarTuleba Tuki es axsna ar adgeba sagnebis gamravlebas, maSin sxva, ufro gamosadegi axsnaa mosaZebni.. heklberi: Sen ambob, Tu Cveni sazogadoebis struqtura Seicvala, samyaroc Seicvleba? beki: sinamdvileSi ara, Tumca ra aris sinamdvile?

heklberi: ise me mgoni marTali xar.. kargad rom gavaanalizoT, Toma akvinelis Sromebis ganxilvis da daskvnebis struqtura SeiZleba velebis Sesaxeb Tanamedrove Teoriebsac ki daemTxves beki: angelozebi da velebi? ratomac ara, es xom

heklberi: uf, uf beki: rogorc aris, ufro zusti iqneba smayaros

ukve gaakeTa viRacam..

aRwera, fenomenologia Seicvleba


18

heklberi:

da

maSasadame

samyaroc..

magram

beki:

ho,

ase

ufro

advilia..

Tanac

isic

unda

sazogadoeba xom met-naklebad globalurad unda Seicvalos, misi gaziareba rom met-naklebad

gaviTvaliswinoT, rom konkretuli mecnieri konkretul aRmoCenas SeiZleba, da namdviladac, sulac ar akeTebs sagnebis gamravlebaze mimarTulobiT da piriqiT,

absoluturi gaxdes.. beki: marTalia, ase unda moxdes, da es rogorc

samyaroebis Seqmnas cdilobs, sagnebis bunebaSi CaRrmavebiT heklberi: esec unda iyos.. yvela mecnieri ar aris sagnebis gamravlebaze, anu, damxmareebis moxmobaze mimarTuli, iseve, rogorc yvela filosofosi sakuTar Tavze beki: marTali xar.. Cven yovelTvis adamianebad vrCebiT, da

xdeba... amaze SeiZleba yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi tomebi daiweros.. heklberi: kvlevis saintereso Temaa magaliTad rogor aRmoCena moxda atomis planetaruli cvlilebebi, modelis ramac es

socialuri

gareT mimarTuloba sagnebis gamravlebaze, Tu SigniT samyaroebis Seqmnaze an Cvens bunebaSi Zevs, an Cvens mier

ganapiroba.. magaria beki: ki, magram safrTxilo vulgarul

Seqmnili sakuTari Tavia.. heklberi: vamravleb? beki: albaT yoveli konkrtuli adamini orives akeTebs eseigi me an samyaroebs vqmni, an sagnebs

sociologizmSi SeiZleba gadavarde.. Tanac es kvleva sakmaod rTulia unda moaxerxo aerido martivi kavSirebis danaxvas... meore mxriv, SeiZleba es sulac ar rom iyos saWiro da SemovifargloT ise Sedis

ubralod masSi romelime sWarbobs xolme heklberi: CemSi? beki: rogorc avtori gadawyvets

daSvebiT,

socialuri

garemo

mecnierSi rom mas arc ekiTxeba heklberi: ase..?

19

cxovelebi da sxva RvTiuri arsebebi

TeTri orqidea: taniT? di: ho, ra iyo, ro ar maqvs imitom, Tumca, meore mxriv, arc piri maqvs da arc cnobiereba

di:

Cunis

provinciaSi

gubernatorma

mglebze

TeTri orqidea: piri da cnobiereba igulisxmeba, tanis qona ki ara di: me mgoni tanis qonac igulisxmeba, yovel SemTxvevaSi Cveni avtoris mier mainc TeTri orqidea: hoda, Tu gvaqvs tani, davubrundeT Cvens mglebs

nadiroba gamoacxada TeTri orqidea: ratom? di: bavSvebs dasxmian Tavs TeTri orqidea: bevri? di: ara, erTi TeTri orqidea: mere erTi mgelis gamo yvelaze

di: ras ambobdi, mglebis gamarTleba rom gindoda? TeTri orqidea: iseTs arafers, ubralod ramdenime ambavia jer erTi, mgeli Tu nadirobs adamianebis sacxovreblis axlos, iq ar cxovrobs, aramed maqsimalurad Sors, meorec yvela mgeli ar nadirobs Sinaur cxovelze, aramed

nadiroba? di: ara, sxva drosac awuxebdnen mosaxleobaso TeTri orqidea: aaaaa TeTri orqidea: raRac dafiqrdi di: isev avtorze aba ase dawyebulma dialogma sanamde unda migviyvanos TeTri orqidea: ra ici ra unda, ras gaigeb.. di: morCi axla avtoris yovlisSemZleobaze

mxolod dasustebulebi an xrovidan gamogdebulebi di: ufro advili rom aris Sinaur cxovelebze nadiroba imitom? TeTri orqidea: ho, da kidev aqedan gamomdinare, Tu Cunis provinciis gubernatori axlo-maxlo tyeebSi sadamsjelo operaciebs moawyobs, didi Sansia iseTi mglebi daxocos,
20

laparaks, Tan taniT vgrZnob, rom sul sxva rame unda Cvengan

romlebic saqonelze da adaminebze TavdasxmaSi ar arian damnaSaveeebi di: anu, swored iseTi mglebi, romlebic swored tyeSi nadirobiT irCenen Tavs da amitom tyis

di:

ra

balaxismWamelebi

gamravldebian,

da

Sinaur

saqonels saZovari aRar eqneba? TeTri orqidea: ase primitiulad ar aris saqme bolos da bolos im balaxismWamelebs, romc gamravldnen adamianebi dauregulireben raodenobas di: aba raSia problema ratom unda vinaRvlo viRac mglebze meyoleba erTi-ori zooparkSi an rame dacul teritoriaze da morCa TeTri orqidea: problema imaSia, rom balaxismWamelebi

mezobeli soflidan ar elodebian Tavdasxmas? TeTri orqidea: ho, da Sedegad miviRebT, rac ufro meti Sinaur saqonelze aramonadire mgels moklaven, miT ufro gaizrdeba iseTi mglebis ricxvi, romlebic adaminebze an Sinaur saqonelze inadireben di: da maTi mokvla sul ufro da ufro auclebeli gaxdeba TeTri orqidea: marTali xar, Sedegad an Cunis sxva, sTxovs

ubralod ki ar gamravldebian gadagvarebas daiwyeben di: es rogor? aaa, tyis sanitari, tyis eqimi da tyis mesaidumle TeTri orqidea: eg tyis sanitroba bevrs pirdapiri

provinciis mezobeli

gubernatori provinciebis

imperators, gubernatorebs

mnISvnelobiT esmis anu, mgeli susts da avadmyofs Wams. sinamdvileSi saqme ufro rTuladaa da sainteresod di: aba miTxari TeTri orqidea: ai geubnebi jer cota Soridan unda daviwyo tyeSi cxovelebi erTian sistemas warmoadgenen isini erTmaneTTan Rrma da saintereso kavSirSi arian, rac ar amoiwureba SeWma-gaqceviT..
21

daxmarebas da mgeli Cunis provinciis tyeSi saerTod aRar iqneba di: mesmis, rom barbarosul rames vityvi, magram rom ar iyos, ra moxda mere? TeTri orqidea: tyeSi balansi dairRveva

di: xom vTqvi sanitroba meTqi TeTri orqidea: macale magaliTad rodesac

di: ra impotentebi xdebian? TeTri orqidea: faqtiurad, rac xoda, miuxedavad faqtiuri

tyeSi mgeli aRar aris, xarirmebis asaki ganuzomlad izrdeba sanam mgeli tyeSia, is Semodgomis

impotenciisa,

xandaxan

ananizmSi

gamoixateba,

axalgazrda xarixmebs ar uSveben furirmebTan TviTonac ver Svebian verafers da arc sxvas ar aZleven amis uflebas. mere igive meordeba beberi xariremi kvdeba da mis adils axalgazrda, iseTive praqtikulad impotenti xariremi

Sejvarebebis Semdeg dasustebul xarirmebze nadirobs da amiT xels uwyobs meore wels axalgazrda

xarirmebis gamefebas di: anu, axalgazrda xarixmebs saSualeba eZleva

ikavebs. Sesabamisad, maTi ricxvi, Tuki jer izrdeba mglebis amowyvetasTan erTad, mere mcirdeba di: es marTla ubedurebaa TeTri orqidea: magram ara erTaderTi irmebis ricxvis gazrda sxva saxeobebis gaqrobas iwvevs magaliTad, zogan arCvi irmis naZovarze Zovs. rodesac irmebis ricxvi

Sejvardnen furebTan? TeTri orqidea: ho, nu mawyvetineb.. roca aseTi rame ar xdeba, ufro asakovani xariremi axalgazrda

xarirmebs gamravlebis saSualeba ar aZlevs, da rac ufro berdeba xariremi, met ufro arasrulyofil STamomavlobas iZleva di: ki magram, odesme xom mokvdeba? TeTri orqidea: rogor ar mokvdeba, magram am ukve

izrdeba, arCvis adgili ubralod qreba da isic qreba xolme di: egec ar aris mTlad didi ubedureba, zooparkSi

gveyoleba TeTri orqidea: sxa ramec xdeba ZaRlebi Sedian tyeebSi da mere naxe Sen adamianebze Tavdasxmebi Tan ZaRlebi yvela ZaRlis msgavss ejvarebian ase rom male tyeSi ZaRlebis meti arcerTi mtacebeli aRar cxovrobs.. jer es
22

periodSi

yofili

axalgazrda

xar-irmebi

gaZlierebulni arian da isini ki ikaveban mis adgils, magram maT ubralod ar ician rogor unda

Sejvardnen, arc undaT

xrovebi tyeSi anadgureben cxovelebs, mere Sinaur saqonelze gadadian di: ra mglebi ar anadgureben? TeTri orqidea: iq saintereso sistemaa Seqmnili tyeSi xom mglebis ramdenime ojaxi cxovrobs xoda maT Soris aris sasazRvro zonebi anu, teritoria, sadac ojaxis arcerTi wevri ar Sedis. ai, swored iq mSobiaroben irmebi di: sul aravin ar Sedis? TeTri orqidea: marto ojaxebidan gagdebuli mglebi an Zalian bebrebi, an Zalian axalgazrdebi.. di: eseigi, es Seni mglebi sulac ar arian

di: magas geubnebi, Sen rac ar unda mimtkico, rom mgeli saintreso cxovelia, mand mainc ar aris argumenti, ratom ar unda myavdes isini mxolod zooparkSi da ratom unda iyvnen tyeSi TeTri orqidea: marto mgeli ara, yvela cxoveli

sainteresoa ici, Teoria arsebobs, rom iremi imitom ki ar xdeba dominanti ase eZaxian xarixems romelsac

haramxana hyavs da situacias akontrolebs rom didi rqebi aqvs imitom aqvs didi rqebi, rom dominantia. di: anu, jer xdeba rqebi? dominanti sainteresoa, da mere ezrdeba

gansakuTrebuli

magram

cxovelebis

mxolod zooparkSi yolis sawinaamRdego argumenti mainc ar aris TeTri orqidea: me ar maqvs pasuxi di: samagierod me maqvs TeTri orqidea: vau di: marTla TeTri orqidea: aba miTxari di: saqme imaSia, rom arc raodenobis Semcireba, arc

angelozebi.. TeTri orqidea: iseve rogorc yvela sxva cxoveli da adamiani isani ubralod sainteresoebi arian di: gareul ZaRlebze vlaparakobdiT magaTac

daxocaven TeTri orqidea: eg aris pasuxi? yvelaferi unda davxocoT da probleba aRar gveqneba

egreTwodebuli auTenturoba, arc raRaca balansis rRveva


23

ar SeiZleba iyos cxovelebis daxocvis an mxolod zooparkSi umetes, xdebian TeTri orqidea: es rogor? imas gulisxmob, rom adamianebi TandaTan klonirebas da genetikur yolis isini sawinaamRdego TandaTan argumenti, miT

di:

mere

is,

rom

adamianTa barierebic

dasaxlebebi ki Seqmnes

ara

marto

gamravldnen,

aramed,

cxovelebis

rom

adamianis

Seqmnilni

samoZrao sivrceebs Soris. TeTri orqidea: Sesabamisad, adamianTa samyaros ganviTarebis Sedegad cxovelTa di: da ara marto cxovelTa TeTri orqidea: ho, da ara marto cxovelTa, mcenareTac, samyaro gaxda dayofili isini ver urTierToben ise, rogorc saukuneebis winaT. di: Tu adamianisaTvis maSin problema ar iyo, an nakleb problemuri iyo, tyeebSi gamaval bilikebze emogzaura, dRes sruliad warmoudgenelia jixvebis jogi, romlic

dublirebas iswavlian da yvela cxovels genetikuri inJineriiT Seqnian? rogorc eleqtronul cxvrebze ocnebis SemTxvevaSi? di: ara, egere sulac ara. Cveni garemo dRes da ukve didi xania cvlilebas ganicdis. Tu adre, ramdenime saukunis da saukuneebis rogorc win msoflio SeiZleba da

warmovidginoT

udabnoebis,

tyeebis

saavtoobilo trasaze moZraobs an afTrebis gundi, qalaqs rom kveTs.. TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan ra gamomdinareobs? di: is, rom Tuki bolo dromde cxovelTa samyaros

wylebis uwyveti sistema, sadac alag alag mosCans adaminebiT piriqiTaa dasaxlebuli msoflios qseli, adgilebi gars dRes saqme

ekvris alag-alag

adamianTa moCans

dasaxlebebis

sadac

SenarCuneba-ganaxleba

sxvadasxva

qve-ekosistemebis

cxovelebis samyofeli adgilebi TeTri orqidea: mere ra?

urTierTqmedebiT xdeboda. is Tanamedrove saxe, romlsac dRes cxovelTa da mcenereTa samyaro iRebs, am

urTierTqmedebis gareSea datovebuli


24

TeTri orqidea: ise, jobia am saqmeSi mcenareebs nu gavrevT, imitom rom maT damtkicebuli funqcia aqvT romelic Jangbadis warmoeba/kvlavwarmoebas exeba, ase rom maTi mofrTxileba sruliad gazomili,

di: ho, gansxvaveba ar aris. adamianma iseve Seqmna am bolo saukuneebis ganmavlobaSi buneba, rogorc qalaqi. TeTri orqidea: alabT marTali xar nacionaluri parkebi da nakrZalebi amis magaliTebia di: hoda nacionalur parkebamdec mivediT ara marto nacionalur parkSi arsebuli mcenareebi da mdinareebi

awonili da pragmatulia di: albaT marTali xar. hoda imas vambobdi, rom ekosistemebs aRar aris Soris urTierTqmedebebis da saSualeba

xdebian adaminis produqti is cxovelebic, romlebic SigniT arian TeTri orqidea: anu, adamianebi ise gaxdnen cxovelebis da saerTod bunebis Semoqmedebi, rom verc ki gaiges? di: ho, da es albaT erTaderTi ramea Tanamedrove samyaroSi, rac adaminebis RvTiur bunebaze miuTiTebs TeTri orqidea: es rogor? di: rogor da rogorc Zvel aRTqmaSia RmerTma Seqmna kaci da qali, da Semdeg ise gamovida, kaci da qali RmerTis nebis winaamRdeg wavidnen TeTri orqidea: mere ra SuaSia aq cxovelebi? di: mTlad pirdapiri da martivi analogia ar aris adamini qmnida da qmnis manqanebs, mecnierebas, teqnologiebs, wers wignebs, da uecrad, Tuki aq es sityva SeiZleba gamoiyeno
25

urbanistuli

araurbanistuli

sistemebi amas dRiTi dRe ufro SeuZlebels xdian iketeba gzebi da sivrceebi romlebic maT

erTmaneTTan akavSirebdnen TeTri orqidea: mere, sad aris Seni argumentebi? di: macale. amitom is garemo romelSic cxoveli cxovrobs xdeba adamianis mier Seqmnili da misi moqmedebiT gansazRvruli. amitom, adamiani iqceva

pasuxismgeblad im konkretul garemoze, romlSic man cxovelebi moaqcia TeTri orqidea: Sen ambob, rom Cveni garemomcveli bunebac iseTive adamianis Seqmnilia, rogorc qalaqebi da sxva industriuli kompleqsebi?

aRmoCndeba rom man buneba da cxovelTa samyaro Seqmna anu, isini uecrad mTlianad aRmoCndnen masze damokidebulni da misgan gamomdinareebi TeTri orqidea: iseve, rogorc amas Zveli aRTqma gviyveba RmerTi samyaros qmnida da Sedegad

damadasturebeli niSani da aseve cxovelebis RvTiurobis damadasturebeli niSanic miviReT TeTri orqidea: cota zedmeti tvinis Wyleta xom ar aris? di: macale. cxovelebi aRarasodes aRar iqnebian iseTebi, rogorebic isini manamde iyvnen damoukideblebi da

adamianebis samyaro miiRo di: aq Teologiuri SekiTxvebis legioni SeiZleba gaCndes magaliTad, icoda Tu ara RmerTma winaswar ra moxdeboda Tu ara, Tu icoda, sad aris

planetis mflobelebi, iseve, rogorc adamianebi verasodes veRar dabrundebian edemis baRSi TeTri orqidea: Tumca, es dabruneba xom idealia

utopisturi Tu rogoric ginda.. di: aseve cxovelebis SemTxvevaSi iseve, rogorc Cven cvdilobT maqsimalurad aRvadginoT bunebis istoriuli

Tavisufali neba... magram axla es ar gvainteresebs, mTavaria RvTiuri bunebis maxasiaTebeli

ganvsazRvroT: rodesac akeTeb rames da is, rac Seni keTebidan ar gamomdinarebs warmoiqmneba, iwyebs arsebobas da yuradRebis da zrunvis obieqti xdeba TeTri orqidea: mere eg ra argumentia? di: is argumentia, rom teqnologiebis da qalaqebis ganviTarebis procesSi, ise, rom Cven arc gvifiqria, cxovelTa samyaro Cveni zrunvis obieqti gaxda Seicvala buneba da Secvala Cveni bunebac Cven, adamianebma miviReT Cveni RvTiurobis

saxe rodesac mTeli planeta erTi sistema iyo, qalaqebis da saavtomobilo baRi gzebis barierebis mSvidi da gareSe, aseve aris

edemis

adamianebis

urTierTsargebliani

cxovrebis arqetipi TeTri orqidea: mere aqedan gamomdinareobs rom cxovelebi ar unda vxocoT da vanadguroT, rom isini mxolod

zooparkebSi ar unda gvyavdes? di: ki, am midgomaSia principuli gansxvaveba cxovelebis saxeobebis SenarCunebisaTvis principuli mniSvneloba ara
26

aqvs

sad

iqneba

es

saxeoba magram

zooparkSi

Tu

TeTri orqidea: Tavs nu isuleleb Zalian avtonomiuri xom ar ggonia Seni Tavi di: ar mgonia, magram axla misi namdvili avtorobis

nacionalur

parkSi,

Cveni

RvTiurobis

dasadastureblad aqvs Cveni pasuxismgeblobaa maTi dRevandeli arseboba, da Tu marTla gvaqvs RvTiuri buneba Cveni zrunvis sagnad cxovelebis tyeebSi yofna unda darCes TeTri orqidea: ra ucnauria TiTqos adamianis RvTiuri bunebis damadasturebel argumentebs

damadasturebeli xom is iqneba, ramdenad gagviSvebs is da ramdenad gamovalT misi kontrolidan TeTri orqidea: ase gamova, rom sxva da sxva avtorebis survili, cxovroben, daasabuTon, sonamdvileSi rom teqstebi damoukideblad ambiciur mizans:

emasaxureba

Teologia, gawie-gamowie da filosofia mainc unda eZebdes yovel SemTxvevaSi tradiciulad asea, exla ki ucbad amis damdasturebeli ekologia da sxva sabunebismetyvelo mecnierebebi aRmoCdnen di: yvela ara TeTri orqidea: ra mniSvneloba aqvs TavisTavad Zalian momxiblvelia Cveni RvTiuroba, da aseve, cxovelebis RvTiuroba mtkicdeba iq, sadac ar unda mtkicdebodes pragmatuli da TiTqosada civi

aCvenon, rom avtorebi RmerTebi arian di: da Sesabamisad, avtorebis gaqrobisken ki ar aris es mcdelobebi mimarTuli, aramed misi axali agebisaken da yvela avtoris RvTiur arsebebad qcevisaken.. TeTri orqidea: SeiZleba, magram es xom Zalian rTulia Cvens cxvrebs anu, cxovelebs xom ar davubrundeT, kidev erTxel rom vTqvaT, ratom ar unda daxocos Cunis

provinciis gubernatorma mglebi di: es ukve vTqviT amiT is Tavis mizans Sewyvitos mglebis soflebze Tavdasxmebi, ver miaRwevs, piriqiT,

mecnierebis sferoSi di: ase gamovida Zveli aRTqmis aseTi gageba

SeiZleba gazardos kidec TavdasxmaTa ricxvi TeTri orqidea: da sul rom amoxocos?
27

avtors rom ar moewonos?

di: sadRac albaT esec moxdeba, magram am SemTxvevaSi Cven sul ufro da ufro davSordebiT Cvens RvTiur bunebas anu, Cven risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria TeTri orqidea: ra Rrma Teologiaa avtori dadna albaT raze ar ufiqria RmerTs da ra ar undoda rogori inteleqtualuri gansxvavebaa di: es Seni sityvebi ar aris, avtors Sercxva

TeTri

orqidea:

anu,

Cven

mxolod

erTobliv

zrunvaSi

vxdebiT is rac varT, anu, mxolod erTobliv zrunvaSi SegviZlia Sedegis miRweva di: me mgoni sakmaod garkveviT vTqviT, ratom ar unda daxoco cxovelebi tyeebSi, magram igives Tqma SeiZleba Cveni, adaminebis moqmedebebis sxva Sedegebze magaliTad, mawanwala, an moSimSile bavSvebze TeTri orqidea: ara mgonia sakuTar Tavze zrunva ar unda iyos RvTiurobis niSani es raRacnairi dazRvevaa, rom Cveni saerTo mdgomareoba gamovasworoT, ar davuSvaT

zedmeti seriozuloba da meti araferi TeTri orqidea: albaT, aba me amas ra maTqmevinebda di: anu, Cveni risi Seqmnac ar gvifiqria, imaze

pasuxismgeblobas da zrunvas TeTri orqidea: da ufro zustad rom vTqvaT? di: erTic unda davamato, sanam am dazustebaze

Cvennairebis tanjva imitom, rom es mere Cven TviTon ar Semogvibrundes di: albaT marTali xar RvTiurobis namdvili dasturi iseT rameze zrunvaa, romlis gaqrobac Sen arafers ar dagaklebs, ar imoqmedebs Senze aranairad iseve, rogorc RmerTze ar imoqmedebs Cveni ararseboba rac ar unda Tqvan Tanamedrove filosofosebma TeTri orqidea: mxolod cxovelebze zrunviT varT Cven RviTiuri arsebebi, da mxolod cxovelebi arian is RvTiuri arsebebi, romelTa saSualebiTac Cven aseTebi vxdebiT
28

gadavidodi - Cven rogorc konkretul adamianebs SegviZlia vizrunoT cxovelebze, magram iseTive

Sedegs rom mivaRwioT, rogorsac RmerTma miaRwia Cvenze gakeTeba zrunviT, mxolod erTad SegviZlia amis

di: anu, es Cveni, rogorc kacobriobis arCevani unda gaxdes? TeTri orqidea: me ara mgonia, rom kacobrioba unda Seikribos, erTad davjdeT da arCevnebi movawyoT.. di: me ase vulgarulad ar miTqvams.. TeTri orqidea: movawyoT arCevnebi Tu raze

TeTri

orqidea: iyos

me

ara Sexedo

mgonia

rom

aseTi

analogia rogorc

marTebuli

moSomSile bavSvebs

gadaSenebis piras misul cxovelebs.. di: mesmis rom cinikuria da gamosavali ar aris ki aseTi xedva giCndeba, iq zrunva qreba TeTri orqidea: magram meore mxriv, Tu sxva gamosavali ar gaqvs, da moSimSile bavSvebis aRqma zrunvisaTvis, rogorc

vizrunoT sakuTar Svilebze Tu cxovelebze di: egre arc me mgonia TeTri orqidea: es ar aris is arCevani romelic Cvens winaSea me Svilebs da cxovelebs Soris ki ar virCev, aramed cxovelebze zrunvasa da ar

sazrunvelad, mxolod maSinaa SesaZlebeli, Tu maT Sexedav rogorc gaqrobis piras misul cxovels? di: ara mgonia aq albaT mainc gamoyenebiTi faqtori erTveba moSimSile bavSvebs rom vexmarebi, amiT amave dros vzrdi am bavSvebs, vaswavli maT adamianebs Soris

zrunvas Soris di: Tumca, xom SeiZleba afrikis xalxs, ise Sexedo, romelime SimSiliT rogorc

urTierTobas amas ki mxolod gamoyenebiTi safuZveli aqvs jer erTi Tu isini daxmarebis didi Sansia gareSe Cemi davtove, garemos

saxelmwifoSi mucelgasiebul

moSimSile bavSvebs

gadarCenili

bavSvebidan

cxovelebs da amitom moindomo maTze zrunva.. TeTri orqidea: ratom Tu ifiqreb, rom maTi gaqrobiT Sen arafri dagakldeba? di: ho, isini imdenad Sors arian, rom gind yofilan gind ara

dauZinebeli mteri miviRo, an iseT epidemias davudo saTave, rom Cemi myudro da mowyobili sazogadoeba Seiwiros, anda iseTi procesebi daiwyos, sulac rom msoflio

dapirispirebaSi gadaizardos

29

TeTri

orqidea:

egre

xom

cxovelebzec

SeiZleba

di:

met-naklebi

warmatebebiT

saboloo

jamSi

vTqva rom ar movuaro gamravldebian, SegvWamen, avadmyofobebs gadagvdeben di: saqme imaSia, rom me moraluri kanonebi uflebas maZlevs cxovelebi davxoco da mxolod zooparkSi myavdes, xolo igive ar SemiZlia gavakeTo moSimSile bavSvebis mimarT TeTri orqidea: ra sindisi Segawuxebs? di: ara, bevri amis adamiani gamo aRmoCndeba msoflioSi da

warumateblad, radgan SeiZleba damarwmuno, rom cxovelebi ar unda gavanadguro, ganadgureba magram me damarwmuno memuqreba imaSi, rom

cxovelebis SeuZlebelia

TviTon

rameTi

TeTri orqidea: amitom, rac ar unda ganvaviTaroT teqnika da teqnologia, fizika da biologia, dRes Cveni RvTiurobis damadasturebeli mxolod cxovelebze zrunvaa.. di: aseve, cxovelebis RvTiurobis damadasturebeli, magram sityva "dRes" ratom gamoiyene? TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom dRes es aris Cveni RvTiurobis damadasturebeli, guSin, anu, sxva dinastiis mmarTvelobis dros SeiZleba sxva iyo.. di: ra saqme gauCine exla Teologebs, vinc dagijerebs, unda dajdnen exla da qeqon teqstebi, ra iyo Cveni

romelic

gadawyvets

damartyas

gamanadguros an moraluri mosazrebebiT, anda imis gamo rom Cemi Zalauflebis miReba moundeba TeTri orqidea: mokled, msoflioSi arsebuli

akrZalvebis da daSvebebis sqeli ar gaZlevs amis saSualebas di: da Tu ar maZlevs amis saSualebas, ese igi SeuZlebelia TeTri orqidea: Tumca, garemos damcvelebi cdiloben aseTve qseli Seqmnan cxovelebis garSemoc

RvTiurobis damadasturebeli asi, aTasi wlis win TeTri orqidea: Tumca, SeiZleba arc araferi.. di: SeiZleba arc araferi, magram rom maSin maSin xom ucnaur

daskvnamde

mivdivarT,

RvTiurobis

damadasturebeli ubralod ar gvqonda


30

TeTri orqidea: an, Zalian banaluri xom ar viqnebi rom vTqva, rom SeiZleba arc gvWirdeboda di: ara mgonia TeTri orqidea: hoda vambob SeiZleba arc

TeTri orqidea: kargi, Cvens droSi.

gvWirdeboda di: da axla gvWirdeba? TeTri orqidea: ratomac ara di: ratom exla da ara maSin? TeTri orqidea: imitom, rom.. imitom rom bevri

pasuxi arsebobs di: magaliTad? TeTri orqidea: magaliTad, ise davSordiT RmerTs mxolod exla dagvWirda da imitom, an kidev mxolod exla gavxdiT Rirsebi, rom RvTiurobis

niSani SegveZina.. Cven da cxovelebsac di: anu, RvTiurobis niSani marto, avtonomiurad ar SeiZineba? TeTri orqidea: rogorc Cans, exla sxvanairad

SeuZlebelia di: exla?


31

meSvide

brigita: kanonebze arCevanis imdeni

SeiZleba

magasac.

demokratiuli qmnian da

niSnavs

iseT

mimarTuls, Tavisuflebis

romlebic

Tavisuflebis, ara TviTon

safuZvlebs

tomi:

guSin

qalaqSi

rom

Semovedi aRarc

Tavisuflebas. tomi: es gansxvaveba Tavisuflebis safuZvlebsa da

nangrevi iyo da aRarc damwvari xorcis suni. rame Seicvala omis Semdeg? brigita: cota Caiwie. albaT. quCebic ikirwyleba da es Cveni zeimic aRar aris mxolod msxverplis

Tavisuflebas Soris banalurad da araarsebiTad meCveneba. ara mgonia didi mniSvneloba hqondes, Tavisuflebas flob Tu Tavisuflebis safuZvelze migiwvdeba xeli. brigita: me kidev ara mgonia, rom am sakiTxSi garkvevis gareSe win waviwioT. sad unda waviwioT? win an arsebobs an ara. tomi: rogor ara, arCevani xom gvaqvs, an win waviwioT Cvens magram me ufro anu, am ganmsjelobaSi Tavisuflebis da Tavisuflebis safuZvlebis davarqmevdi.

Sewirvis msgavsi. xalxic ufro imedianad dadis da gamoiyureba. tomi: Tqven albaT amas demokratiis mmarTvelobas gindaT rom umadlodeT. brigita: ratomac ara.

mmarTvelobas

liberalurs

Sesaxeb, an ara. brigita: es arCevani iluzorulia. Tu win waviwevT,

Tavisuflebaze mimarTuls. tomi: xo magram ra gansxvavebaa, demokratiuls

waviwevT, Tu ara, maSin ara. tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? mxolod imas rasac niSnavs, Tu sxva

umadli Tu liberalurs? brigita: didi gansxvavebaa: liberaluri niSnavs

ramesac?

Tavisuflebaze da gan-Tavisuflabaze mimarTuls.. tomi: e.i. revoluciurs?


32

brigita:

ra

Tqma var an

unda am

imas wuTSi

sul

ara,

rom

me

tomi: ki magram ra mianiSnebs imaze rom mogonebebi gvaqvs? brigita: mxolod analogiebi ar SeiZleba vlaparakobdeT da sityvebis mniSvnelobebis gamocdileba ar gvqondes tomi: da Tu imitacias CavdivarT?

fatalisti

Semipyro

yovlis

msWvalavma fatalisturma gawyobam. tomi: aba ras? brigita: Tundac imas, rom am momentSi Tavisufal avtori nebaze

brigita: Tundac. Tuki imitacias CavdivarT, Tu imitacia srulyofilia, maSin is saimitirebelis igiveobrivia? tomi: ki magram ori erTnairi rom ar arsebobs? brigita: aaa, maSin is ori erTi da igive romaa? tomi: ho. brigita: maSin is aRar iarsebebs ris imitaciasac vakeTebT tomi: an Cven brigita: es ukve mistikaa

gansazRvravs

Cvens

viTomda

damyarebul dialogs. tomi: aseTi banaloba.. brigita: ra, jer ar miTqvams? tomi: rogor ityodi, rodesac bundovani grZnoba mawuxebs, gavCndiT brigita: da Cveni mogonebebi im momentSi xdeba rom cxrameti-oci kiTxva-pasuxis win

tomi: mistika aRar arsebobs brigita: ratom? tomi: adgili aRar aqvs, marto wignebi arseboben mistikaze brigita: aRarc Cvens gverdiT? ai am milze? tomi: ara mgonia brigita: ratom? Cveni tani ver itans? tomi: xo, Cven tans atana ara aqvs.. brigita: moica, moica, veRar gvTargmnian
33

warsulis wili rodesac maT mogonebas daviwyebT ramdenime kiTxva-pasuxis Semdeg.. tomi: an ar daviwyebT.. brigita: da maSin mogonebebic aRar gveqneba tomi: magram axla rom vlaparakobT ise, TiTqos mogonebebi gvqondes

tomi: aris amaSi raRac Soreulad nacnobi.. isev fsevdomogonebebma Semipyro brigita: ras makeTebinebs tani tomi: tani ki ara mzera brigita: ra gansxvavebaa.. tomi: iseve rogorc mogonebebi, Cveni tanic xom igulisxmeba brigita: da Cveni piric tomi: axla raRa vqnaT? xom ar gveTxova

tomi: xo magram me amas mxolod axla vgrZnob da ara maSin brigita: ki magram Tavisufleba? tomi: ra Tavisufleba? brigita: SesaZlebelia? tomi: Tu avtori gvyavs? brigita: rogori avtors tomi: da Tu teqsts gareTac varsebobT.. brigita: da RmerTi avtoria? arc maSin. tomi: aba imas RmerTi avtori egona? brigita: aba, ra magrad SeeSala.. brigita: aba tomi: da Tu RmerTi avtori ar aris? Tu teqstSi varT amaze ar laparakic unda zedmetia,

irlandiuri

qelexebic

gadavuxadoT

avtorisaTvis SegveSvas brigita: mere gamova rame? tomi: ratomac ara.

brigita: rame iyo? tomi: rogor ara brigita: ras ityuebi tomi: ras ambob, Sen veraferi ver igrZeni? brigita: Cavardna maqvs mexsierebaSi tomi: mere eg aris araferi?

brigita: maSin ufro rTuladaa saqme.. tomi: ratom? brigita: imitom rom kiTxvas arasworad vsvamT tomi: eg raRas niSnavs? imas rom pasuxi zedapirzea Tu rame ufro mniSvnelovans? brigita: me mgoni rames ufro
34

tomi: ras? brigita: imas rom kiTxva Cvengan unda daisvas da ara RmerTisgan tomi: ratom? brigita: imitom, rom amocanis amoxsnis

dasabuTebas cdilobda, sakuTar Tavs warmoaidgenda xolme RmerTad. tomi: rac, ar iyo Zneli, is xom avtori iyo.. brigita: marTalia. garda amisa, RmerTis arsebobis

dasabuTebis argumentebi RmerTis arsebobas asabuTeben da sxvas arafers. Cven ki, Tu sworad vimsjeleT, RmerTis arseboba erT-erTi Sedegi unda iyos, romelic Cveni

elementaruli pirobaa, rom nacnobidan unda daiwyo amoxsna da ara ucnobidan tomi: e.i. ontologiuri, gnoseologiuri da

msjelobidan gamova, magram ara erTaderTi. tomi: ki magram ratom? brigita: imitom, rom mxolod am SemTxvevaSi gaxdeba

epistemologiuri..? brigita: diaxac rom. es xom igivea, erTucnobian gantolebaSi, magaliTad 7+X=12 12-s ki ar gamoaklo 7 da X miiRo, da aramed daiwyo X-is Canacvleba mixvide

RmerTis arseboba misaRebi da ara sakamaTo, rwmena/codnis sasworze Camokidebuli. tomi: im SemTxvevaSic ki, dasabuTeba saeWvo pirobiTobas rom daemyaros? brigita: yvela dasabuTeba pirobazea damyarebuli. Tanac is dasabuTeba, romelic realurad raimes asabuTebs, yovelTvis saeWvo pirobiTobas emyareba da ara TavsTavad cxads tomi: anu, Tu asabuTebs ufro mets, vidre es pirobaSi igulisxmeba? brigita: ho
35

erTidan

mxolod

mexuTe

mcdelobaze

swor pasuxamde. tomi: ki magram RmerTi xom iqsi ar aris, da arc adamiani aris iseTive garkveuloba, rogorc Svidi an Tormeti brigita: me principze vambob da ara identobaze. me rac vTqvi, gulisxmobs imas, rom nebismieri avtori cinikurad JRers, ara - rodesac RmerTis arsebobis

tomi: anu, verafriT ver vipoviT iseT wanamZRvars, mTlianad rom utyuari iyos? brigita: mTlianad ras niSnavs ar vici. magram iseTi wanamZRvari da amosavali mainc unda vipovoT, romlis uaryofa Zneli iqneba.. tomi: an SeuZlebeli brigita: SeuZlebeli uaryofisTvis ar arsebobs,

tomi: eg ras niSnavs? brigita: eg imas niSnavs, rom uaryofa eTikurad unda iyos SeuZlebeli da ara logikurad tomi: egeTi rame ra aris? brigita: unda iyos.. .. iseTi rame, rasac uaryof da azri aRar eqneba laparakis gagrZelebas tomi: magaliTad? brigita: magaliTad Tavisufali neba tomi: eg swori magaliTia? brigita: ki. Tu ityvi, rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs da yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve tomi: kidev sityvebiT TamaSi, Targmani gaWirdeba brigita: ara uSavs.. rames moifiqreben. xoda Tu ityvi, rom yvelaferi imTaviTve an amTaviTve gansazRvrulia, maSin

bolos da bolos ara yvelafers mieyeneba Tundac rogorc metafora. tomi: maSin rogori Zneli? brigita: Zalian tomi: mainc rogori? brigita: iseTi, romlis uaryofac Zalian bevr rames gaxdis uazrod tomi: magaliTad? brigita: magaliTad dialogs, diskusias, tomi: arsebobas? brigita: arsebobasac tomi: arsebobas uaryofs? brigita: ara, romelic uazros gaxdis

dialogs an kamaTs azri ara aqvs Sedegic gansazRvrulia da Senc, ra azri aqvs kamaTob Tu ara.. tomi: anu, Tu ityvi rom Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs, es niSnavs, rom yvelaferi gansazRvrulia, da movlenaTa jaWvi, romlSic Sen cxovrob ucvlelia brigita: ho, mag SemTxvevSi araferi ar SeiZleba moxdes
36

tomi: yvelaferi ukve moxda da elodeba rom es momxdari gamovlindeba brigita: Cven arafris gakeTeba ar SegviZlia, imitom rom arCevani ara gvaqvs, Tu gvgonia rom gvaqvs, es iluziaa tomi: da xar rogorc marioneti brigita: ratom rogorc? tomi: marTali xar, aseTi arseboba, Tuki eg

brigita: swored aq SeiZleba mTeli simZafriT - saSineli sityvaa, Zmars gavs - daisvas kiTxva, risTvis arsebob.. tomi: eg xom uazro kiTxvaa brigita: mxolod maSin, Tu fiqrob, rom Tavisufali neba gaqvs, Tu ara gaqvs, maSin swored rom droulia da azriani tomi: eseigi, vinc arsebobis mizanze svams kiTxvas, misTvis Tavisufali neba ar unda arsebobdes brigita: ho, misTvis arCevani SeuZlebelia, yvelaferi

marTalia, samarcxvinoa brigita: da Sesabamisad, msjelobis gagrZelebas azri ara aqvs tomi: imitom, rom es msjelobac, SeiZleba, Seni dilamdeli kuWis moqmedebiT aris gansazRvruli brigita: ratom SeiZleba? sworedac rom

gansazRvrulia, da Sesabamisad, kiTxulob, Tu es asea, maSin ratom gaqvs amis cnobiereba? tomi: xoo, am SemTxveaSi cnobierebis, miT umetes amis cnobierebis arseboba sadizmia brigita: aba, boroti RmerTi da ase Semdeg tomi: aris amaSi raRac komikuri da TviTgvemuri jer ambob rom Tavisufali neba ar aris, da mere Tavs iklav amis gamo brigita: rac imTaviTve gansazRvrulia tomi: an maxvilgonier pasuxs scem, rTuli konstruqciebiT brigita: rac aranakleb komikuria tomi: mere kaTarzisic dgeba
37

gansazRvrulia. zustad rom dilandelma yabzobamac gansazRvra aucileblobiT es dialogi tomi: Cvenma Tu sxvisam? brigita: sxvismac, ra Tqma unda tomi: da yvelaferi aris urTierTgansazRvrulobis jaWvi da mimdevroba

brigita: da dakarguli meore wignic gamogvivida, me mgoni tomi: ese igi, Tavisufali nebis arseboba unda iyos is amosavali romelsac unda daveyrdnoT brigita: ho tomi: mandedan gamomdinare, unda amovideT im

tomi: uTargmnelSi nu gadadixar brigita: im tradiciaSi romelSic Cven axla vlaparakobT SesaZlebloba SeuZleblobas ufro niSnavs maxsovs,

SesaZlebloba sinamdviles upirispirdeba.. tomi: aqedan modis yvelaferi rac sinamdvilea is ver iqneba SesaZlebloba, aqtualuris da potenciuris

daSvebidan, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobs brigita: da Tu Tavisufali neba arsebobs, maSin arCevani unda arsebobdes, anu, Cemi arCevani unda iyos ara iluzoruli, rodesac me mgonia rom

dapirispireba, rac SesaZleblobaa an ganamdvildeba an ara.. da ase Semdeg brigita: albaT sityva SesaZlebloba ar unda gamoviyenoT.. tomi: da mxolod realobis cnebebiT Tu vilaparakebT. Tuki me marTlac maqvs arCevani, maSin me realobebs Soris unda virCevde da ara SesaZleblobebs Soris. mxolod maSin iqneba arCevani namdvili arCevani Tuki me marTlac virCev or gzas Soris, virCev marjvniv wavide Tu marcxniv, da ara Tavs vimSvideb Tavisufali arCevanis iluziiT an sakuTari misiis ZebniT. brigita: ise, misiis Zebnas rom davubrundeT pirovnuli

arCevans vakeTeb, sinamdvileSi ki ras gavakeTeb ukve gansazRvrulia ontologiuri winaswar nevrozis da me mxolod mWirdeba

Casaqrobad

Tavisufali nebis warmosaxva tomi: aramed Cemi arCevani namdvili arCevani unda iyos erT, or sam da SeiZleba usasrulo

SesaZleblobebs Soris brigita: radganac gvwers SesaZleblobebs im tradiciaSi, albad romelSic cudi sityvaa,

misiis ideac xom Tavisufali nebis ararsebobis aRiarebidan gamomdinareobs: Tuki me ar maqvs Tavisufali neba da maqvs cnobiereba, maSasadame me maqvs misia anu, raki Tvisufali
38

axla avtori

neba

ar

arsebobs,

Cemi

cnobierebis

gamarTleba

tomi: Cven mxolod maSin gvaqvs arCevanis SesaZleboba, Tuki yvela arCevani, romelic Cvens winaSe dgas, arsebobs da Cven

mxolod Cemi misiaa, da sxva araferi. tomi: mivediT daskvnamde, rom Tuki misiaze

mxolod erT-erT gzas vaniWebT upiratesobas. brigita: xom laparakoben Tanamedrove mecnierebi paralelur samyaroebze Cven varT Cvens ganzomilebebSi, arseboben

laparakob, maSin Tavisufali neba ar arsebobs? brigita: ase gamodis. tomi: magaram xom SeiZleba erTmaneTSi vurevdeT

kidev damatebiTi ganzomilebebi da paraleluri samyaroebi tomi: maT damajerebel da TviTdajerebul msjelobebSi vin ar daibneva, bolos iZulebuli xar sityvaze daujero brigita: magram eg xom meta-enis ambavia da ara sinamdvilis aRweris?

misias da arCevans? brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom misia Tavis TavSi moicavs sxva SesaZleblobis SeuZleblobas, rodesac ar arsebobs movlenaTa ganviTarebis sxva gza. tomi: Tavisufali neba uaryofs misias, magram

tomi: ra mniSvneloba aqvs? magram miuxedavad yvelafrisa, damatebiTi ganzomilebebi axal xedvas Tu gulisxmobs, da ara paralelur samyaros, xolo paraleluri samyaro Cvens fizikur samyaroSi iseTive realuri da myaria, rogorc Cveni da aranairad ar waagavs Tundac Zalian daSorebul SesaZleblobas

aRiarebs arCevans, arCevans or brigita: an usasrulod bevr tomi: kargi, an usasrulod bevr SesaZleblobebs Soris, rodesac orive, an usasrulod bevri

SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalis aris brigita: eg xom niSnavs, rom Tuki orive, an

brigita:

iqneb

swored

Zalian

daSorebulia

da

Cvengan

usasrulod bevri SesaZlebloba Tanabari Zalisaa, maT Tanabari Zala unda SeunarCundeT mas Semdegac, rac Cven erT-erTs avirCevT

Zalian Sors swored is SesaZlebeli samyaro arsebobs, romelic ar avirCieT? anu, rac ufro axloa, miT ufro

39

Soria amitom Cvens uaxloes mezoblobaSi yvelaze Soreuli SesaZleblobis samyaro mdebareobs.. tomi: eg lamazad gamoiyureba, magram Cvens daSvebaSi mTavari swored isaa, rom yoveli arCevani

brigita: es warmoudgeneli da sulis SemxuTveli/gamxsneli, es xom erTi da igivea, samyaroa. am samyaroebis ricxvis da urTierTganlagebis warmodgena imis warmodgenisas mkrTali da xvdebi, rom yvela risi

uxeiro

analogiaa,

usasrulod bevr samyaroebSi unda moZraobdes, - am samyaroSi avirCie marcxniv wasvla, sxva samyaroSi marjvniv wavedi, kidec sxvaSi gavrCedi, kidev sxvaSi miwaSi CavZveri, am kidev sxvagan haerSi avxti da

warmodgenac ginda.. tomi: aq warmodgena nebdeba. es aris samyaros is cneba, romlsac warmodgeniT ver igeb, da mxolod cnebebis

ganmartebis da urTierTqmedebiT unda dakmayofilde brigita: me mainc mgonia, rom swored warmodgenis unaria, romelic gaCvenebs samyaros am suraTis gansakuTrebulobas warmodgenis unari ukan ixevs rodesac Tundac sakuTari Tavisufali nebis samyaroebis danaxvas daapireb, da saerTod qreba, rodesac am samyaroebSi sxvisi Tavisufali nebis arsebobas da misi samyaroebis simravles uSveb..

davekide..

samyaroebma

SeiZleba

erTmaneTi

gadakveTon, an daemTxven kidec zogierT ramdenime SemTxvevaSi. aseTi ram ki mecnierebis wignebSi ar weria. brigita: modi kidev erTxel aRvweroT, ra samyaroa is, sadac Tavisufali nebaa SesaZlebeli tomi: es aris samyaro, sadac usasrulod bevri

tomi: imisaTvis, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobdes, unda arsebobdes usasrulod mravali realuri samyaro, sadac Cemi ar arCeuli gzebi xorcieldeba yoveli konkretuli arCevanis dros. eseigi, es samyaroebi unda arsebobdes iseve, rogorc arsebobs is samyaro, romleSic Cven vcxovrobT..

samyaroebi arsebobs da yvela am samyaroSi Cveni arCevanis sxvadasxva gzaa ganxorcielebuli. es

warmoudgeneli erTianobaa, romelSic Cveni yoveli arCevani da misi sapirispiro Tu masgan gansxvavebuli gza ganxorcielebulia da aqtualurad arsebobs.

40

brigita: da Tu isini arseboben,

anu, arian ara

Sua saukuneobrivi, am SemTxvevaSi aqvs Tu ara cxovels Tavisufali neba? brigita: erTi mxriv, Tu cxoveli arCevans akeTebs maSin ki. magram Cven saidan viciT rom cxovels SeuZlia arCevanis gakeTeba? xom ar aris es arCevanis unari Cvens mier

potenciurni aramed aqtualurni, sad SeiZleba iyos maTi arseboba? tomi: yovel SemTxvevaSi ara im samyaroSi, romlis dakvirvebac da romlis Sesaxebac daskvnebis gakeTeba SegviZlia brigita: erTaderTi adgili da unari, romelic am samyaroebs aqtualurad amyofebs, aqtualobis imave xarisxiT, rogoric Cvenia, Tavisi sami, oTxi Tu mravali ganzomilebiT, aris RmerTi tomi: ai ase miviReT RmerTis dasabuTebis axali gza, romelic dasabuTebisaTvis Tavisufali nebis

miwerili misTvis? tomi: meore mxriv, Tu ar viciT, arc SegviZlia darwmunebiT vTqvaT, rom maT ara aqvT Tavisufali neba. anu, is, rom Cven viciT, rom yovel konkretul SemTxvevaSi cxovels SeuZlia an es gaakeTos an is, migviTiTebs imas, rom cxovels

SeuZlia hqondes Tavisufali neba brigita: magram Tu es an es an is im garemoTi aris nakarnaxevi, romelSic is cxovrobs?

arsebobis daSvebas moiTxovs.. brigita: da moiTxovs or unars: rwmenis (ara

tomi: garemoTi? brigita: ho, garemoTi Tu cxoveli cxovrobs iseT

RmerTis) da msjelobis unarebs: rwmena imisa, rom Tavisufali neba arsebobs, da aqedan gamomdinare daskvna, rom RmerTis arseboba aucilebelia, Tuki Tavisufali neba arsebobs tomi: es TiTqos advili daskvnaa, magram aqve

garemoSi, romelic imdenad ertymis mis yovel hipoTetur saqciels, rom sxvanairi da ara amnairi moqmedeba marTlac mxolod potenciaa aqtualuri da arc aqvs Sansi ramenairad iyos

Semogveyreba sxva bevri kiTxva, Tundac, is, Zveli,


41

tomi:

magram

igive

SegviZlia

vTqvaT

adamianzec:

vigulisxmebT, maSin sacodav Teorias miviRebT, rom adamiani RmerTs TandaTan atovebinebs samyaros tomi: ho, maSin RmerTi gamodis raRac gadaSenebis piras misuli saxeobasaviT, romelic iseve idevneba Cveni

SeiZleba adamianis garemo ise iyos mowyobili, rom mxolod erTi qcevis ganxorcieleba iyos

SesaZlebeli, da sxva, paraleluri SesaZleblobebi verc arsebobdnen im konkretuli garemosaTvis. brigita: am SemTxvevaSi is xom fiqrobs mainc, rom sxvanairad moqceva SeuZlia? tomi: SeiZleba ifiqros, magram Tu aranairi realoba amas ar miuTiTebs, maSic es mxolod fiqri da

samyarodan, rogorc, magaliTad gepardi, an ixvniskarta.. brigita: eg igivea rac gamyarebis Teoriebi da raRac

evoluciuri ambebi tomi: ho magram es xom logikuri daskvnaa Tu adamini istoriulad TviTonve SemoizRudavs Tavs wesebiT, romlis mixedviTac mosalodneli qceva erTgvarovani xdeba, maSin saxezea Tavisufali nebis, da Sesabamisad samyaroSi RmerTis yofnis Semcirebaze mimarTuli moqmedeba brigita: egec marTalia, TiTqos: yvelaferi sportuli TamaSi, saxelmwifo, ojaxi, dasasvenebeli parki imas

iluzia iqneba. brigita: isev iq davbrundiT, sadac Tavisufali nebis SesaZleblobaze vlaparakobdiT.. tomi: me mainc mgonia, rom is sxva ambavi iyo. aq Cven vambobT, rom miuxedavad imisa, rom Teoriulad

Tavisufali nebis arseboba iwvevs RmerTis arsebobas, amave dros adaminma ise SeiZleba moawyos garemo, rom masSi sxva SesaZleblobas ar hqondes adgili brigita: anu, Tu da Cven am mowyobaSi Semofargvlas

miuTiTebs, rom Tavisufali neba lamis marto weraSi rCeba, da Tu sxva Teoriebsac gaviTvaliswinebT, iqac ar rCeba, imdenad didia gavlenebi da dublikaciebi tomi: es logikuria, magram xom ar aris am logikaSi rame, rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SeuZlebels xdis?

institucionalizacias

kanonebiT

42

brigita: me mgoni piriqiT logikaSi yvelaferia, rac aseT sasacilo daskvnas SesaZleblad da

es yvela SemTxvevis mimarT marTebulia. SeiZleba iyos erTiori SemTxveva, rac am msjelobas daangrevs tomi: ra SemTxveva, gansazRvrazea rodesac yoveli jgufi sakuTari iqneba es

realurad aqcevs. Tuki gvinda logikis komikurobas Tavi davaRwioT, realobas unda mivmarToT da iq vnaxoT, ra gamogvrCa realobis aRweraSi.. tomi: jer xom ar aRgviweria? brigita: rogor ara yvela Cveni debulebis ukan aRwera dgas, Tanac sakmaod martivi.. tomi: magaliTad? brigita: magaliTad, rodesdac vambobT, rom adamini mimarTulia samyarodan RmerTis gadaSenebaze, maSin vgulisxmobT, rom es adamini principulad

qcevebis

mimarTuli,

sulerTia

platonis akademia, francisk asizelis ordeni Tu qurdebis samyaro? brigita: miekuTvneba SemTxveva, arc rodesac im konkretuli jgufs, adamiani ar

erT

romlebic

RmerTis

gadaSenebiT aris dakavebuli tomi: im pirobis gaTvaliswinebiT, rom RmerTis gadaSeneba yoveli arsebuli Tu moazrebuli jgufis xvedria? brigita: im pirobiT tomi: magram aseTi adamiani xom Zalian iSviaTi iqneba mxolod da mxolod gamonaklisebi, romlebic ar Cajdebian arc es mimarTuloba erTi jgufis sazRvrebSi da mudmiv revolucias

erTgvarovania, da es mimarTulobac principulad erTgarovani.. tomi: es xom marTlac asea.. brigita: jer ar damimTavrebia:

mihyofen xels Tu mudmiv mojanyeebad gadaiqcevian brigita: ara mgonia.. saqme imaSia, rom es albaT yvelaze didi umsjelobaa, jgufs rom adamianebi maT erT, an ramdenime rom isini

principulad erTgvarovanic rom iyos, ar niSnavs, rom misi yoveli es ar konkretuli niSnavs, rom gamovlenac Tu RmerTis

erTgvarovania.

gansazRvrul

ekuTvnian.

goniaT

gadaSeneba mimdinareobs garkveul SemTxvevebSi, rom

mxolod erT jgufs ekuTvnian. sinamdvileSi sasacilo


43

sityvaa ara am laparakisas sinamdvileSi isini Segnebulad mxolod erT, an ramdenime jgufTan

tomi: aqedan rasizmamze mivalT:

Sen ginda germaneli iyo da

ar xar, imitom rom bebiaSeni frangi iyo brigita: es utrirebaa. Sen mier dasaxelebul SemTxvevaSi germaneloba realobaa, uaris Tqma ki Sefaseba. Sen

aigiveben sakuTar Tavs, anu, isini Segnebulad rTaven sakuTar Tavs mxolod gansazRvrul jgufSi.. tomi: anu, maTi damokidebuleba im jgufebTan

realobisadmi germanelobisadmi kuTvnilebas acxadeb. mere viRac ki modis da gafasebs, rom Sen cdebi da sinamdvileSi _ isev es sityva sxva, ufro dabali donis xar. im SemTxvevaSi me rom aRvwere, Sen afaseb rom germaneli xar da sxva modis da geubneba, rom Sen amave dros frangic xar tomi: ese igi, rasizmis SemTxvevaSi Sen realobas

mxolod RirebulebiTia, mxolod SefasebiTi? brigita: aba ra. mxolod Rirebuleba da Sefasebaa kriteriumi, romlis mixedviTac sakuTar

TviTidentifikacias axden literaturul kafesTan da literaturul klubTan da ara mawvnis rigSi

mdgomebTan, arada, met dros SeiZleba mawvnis rigSi atarebde da ara kafeSi. rom gamogikvlion, SeiZleba mawvnis rigSi ufro meti Cvevebi da

upirispireb Sefasebas, xolo Sens moyolil SemTxvevaSi Sefasebas realobas brigita: xo, iq gakleben, aq umateb.. reaqcia ki orive SemTxvevaSi germanelad geubnebian germaneli.. tomi: esec utrirebaa, me xom ar veubnebi rom is metia, me mas aRvwer, rogorc ufro mets
44

msoflmxedvelobrivi unarebi SegiZenia, vidre kafeSi, is Cvevebi, Sen rom kafeSi/klubSi SeZenili ggonia tomi: eg xom snobizmis gamo xdeba? brigita: ara, es xdeba martivi ramis gamo: Sen sadac ginda iq unda iyo, magram Seni survili arafer SuaSi ar aris imasTan rac xar

erTnairi yofnas rom Sen

SeiZleba gikrZalaven, ufro

iyos da xar,

maSinac

roca

maSinac vidre

rodesac mxolod

meti

brigita: rogorc

saqmec ufro

magaSia, mets,

rom

me amave

ki

aRvwer

mas,

Cven, adaminebi ganvicdiT, rodesac vqmniT iseT raimes rac RmerTis gadaSenebas iwvevs da amaSia swored Cveni

magram

dros

veubnebi

kidec, mivuTiTeb mis umsjelobaze tomi: veubnebi, rom sinamdvileSi Sen ufro meti xar, vidre Sens (an babuaSens) mier mogonili CarCo brigita: babuaSeni utrirebaa, lamis sagvareulos deapologizacias mivadeqiT.. magram sinamdvileSi ufro meti xar, vidre ggonia an warmogidgenia, anu, isev warmoudgenlamde mivediT, iqamde, rasac veRar

dawyevlilobac da madlic.. brigita: nu Radaob tomi: ratomac ara, me mgoni aqamde mivediT, Tumca ara.. jer bolo varianti ar mogviZebnia brigita: ho, ramdenime striqonis win isev warmoudgenel warmosaxulamde mivediT, roca vcdilobdiT RmerTi

gadaSenebisagan gadagverCina.. tomi: Sen ar Tqvi, movrCeT Radavs brigita: kargi bolos gavCerdiT iq, sadac vTqviT, rom miuxedavad institutebSi imisa, aRar rom aris, RmerTi is mainc struqturebSi SeiZleba iyos da am

warmovidgenT da mxolod aRwera SegviZlia tomi: anu, Cven ki ara, institutebi gadaaSeneben RmerTs, brigita: iseve, rogorc Cven ki ara, kaSxlebi Rupaven ekosistemas, anda, atomuri bombebi afeTqeben da

institutebs Soris tomi: anu, Tu Cven RmerTis mibaZvas movaxdenT da iseve vimoZravebT institutebs Soris rogorc RmerTi SesaZlebel samyaroebs Soris brigita: oRond im gansxvavebiT, rom RmerTi Wverets? . .. . . . .

aavadeben, da ara Cven, tomi: es bolo Sedareba me mgoni mTlad zusti ar unda iyos.. brigita: feministuria tomi: da ara marto.. es aris adaminis tragediis safuZveli es aris mudmivi tkivili, romelsac

45

tomi: da im daSvebiT rom Cvenc vWvretT, Tu magrebi varT, magram amave dros vmoZraobT am samyaroebSi brigita: iseve, rogorc RmerTi moZraobs yvela im samyaroSi samyaroSic tomi: da es aris swored RmerTis wvdoma romlebic masSia, maT Soris Cven

brigita: ho, Tu mogzauroba is wesia, romelSic cxovrob, marTalia. magram Tu mogzauroba aris saSualeba sxvadasxva socialur jgufSi icxovro, maSin ki. tomi: ho, magram yvelaze maRali pilotaJi iqneba adamiani, romelic adgilidan ar iZvris da ise icvlis samyaroebs brigita: anu? tomi: anu, adgilze yofniT SeiZleba es adgilze yofna

erTaderTi SesaZlebeli rac SegviZlia brigita: anu, es aris erTaderTi instituti,

metafora axerxebs sxvadasxva mozomebiT

iyos, bevr

da

ara

lotosis

pozaSi

jdoma

is

romelic ki ar aqrobs, aramed inarCunebs RmerTs da sakuTar TavSi Semohyavs. ki ar aqrobs SesaZlebeli ganviTarebebis Semcirebis gziT, aramed SesaZlebels xdis usasrulod bevr mikro samyaroSi imogzauro, rodesac erTaderTi SezRudva Senive sicocxlea. tomi: ara mgonia, mogzaurebi yvelaze axlos iyvnen RmerTTan. ara mgonia, yovel SemTxvevaSi, yvela ara: iseTi mogzauri, romelsac Tan daaqvs Tavisi samyaro, rogorc lokokinas niJara albaT ara. sivrceSi gadaadgileba ver Seqmnis samyaroebSi mogzaurobas. ufro piriqiT rac ufro migewebeba niJara, miT ufro gadaaSeneb RmerTs.

samyaroSi

moxvedras, da

sakuTar samyaros

Tavze aRqmebis

msoflmxedvelobebis

brigita: raRac sasacilo traqtati gamogvdis tomi: marTali xar, modi sxvebma daweron es traqtatic da sxvebic, mivxedoT brigita: ho, magram ori sityva mainc unda vTqvaT aqedan gamomdinare mistikaze tomi: me mgoni ukve vTqviT brigita: rodis? Cvens magivrad, Cven ufro saintereso saqmeebs

46

tomi: cota xnis kinaRam striqoni ar vTqvi cota xnis win, rodesac adgilze dgomaze vambobdi raRacas brigita: da es yvelaferi Cvens yoveldRiurobaSi rom gadavitanoT? tomi: anu, Cvens garemoSi da vTqvaT rogor aris SesaZlebeli mistikuri gamocdileba? brigita: ki magram, Cveni dialogis mizani sul sxva iyo, da kidev erTi Tema CavtenoT SigniT? tomi: iqneb mainc vcadoT brigita: mkiTxveli aireva tomi: ara mgonia, iqneb odnav mainc mogvexaza, ra elodeba adamians Cvens garemoSi mistikur

brigita: kargi, oRond marto zedapirulad, Rrmad ar unda Sexvide tomi: vici, isedac sul zRvarze ar davdivarT brigita: Tu vwevarT tomi: rogorc aris. Tumca, axla vifiqre brigita: ifiqre? tomi: ho. axla vifiqre Rirs ki saerTod Tanamedrove mistikur gamocdilebaze laparaki? mistika, iseve rogorc sxva raRaceebi, imdenad universitetizirebuli da

institucionalizebulia, rom mistikaze verc vilaparakebT brigita: xom SevTanxmdiT, rom RmerTi gadaSenebis pirasaa ukve miyvanili sasrulganzomilebian SesaZlebeli sivrceebSi, anu, im

sivrceebSi,

sadac

moqmedebebis

zRvruli

gamocdilebasTan Sexebisas brigita: kargi, modi SevexoT tomi: Sen daiwyeb? brigita: rogorc ginda tomi: modi me daviwyeb, mainc rolebi isea

raodenobaa daSvebuli tomi: maSin moraluri qmedeba da mistikuri qmedeba erTi da igive xom ar gamodis Seni garemos SesaZlebeli

moqmedebebis usasrulo arenad gadaqceva brigita: waagavs, magram moraluri qmedeba gasvlis da

ganawilebuli

gadasvlis qmedebaa, rodesac Sen ar Cerdebi erT SesaZlebel

47

samyaroSi/jgufSi qmedeba sakuTari

da moZraob. Tavis

rodesac unda

mistikuri iyos

brigita: maSin socialuri adgilidan dauZvrelad sakuTari Tavis gamravlebis SesaZlebloba maCvene tomi: es is viTarebaa, rodesac erT adgilas yofniT da Seni rolis SesrulebiT Sen cnobierad asruleb sxva rolebs, da cdilob rolebis maqsimalurad didi raodenoba moicva

gamravleba

gasvlis gareSe tomi: rogorc moraluri qmedebis yvelaze ufro radikaluri gamoxatva? brigita: adgilidan ho. sakuTari da pirovnebis mogzaurobis gamravleba gareSe

brigita: Tu es formulireba sworia, aucileblad unda iyos misi sarkiseburi anarekli, romelic sruliad sxvas sCadis tomi: da aris kidec: adamini, romelsac instituciur

daZvris

mogzauroba ra Tqma unda RmerTis wvdomis gzaa, magram es mogzauroba socialuri adgilis

gamoucvlelad ganicado - ufro rTulia tomi: anu, ki ar unda icvalo iseT adgilebi da

sxeulSi garkveuli adgili da funqcia gaaCnia da arafers ar akeTebs brigita: Tumca, es arafris keTebac SeiZleba garkveuli mdgomareoba iyos, romelsac mistikis enaze sakuTari Tavis waSla SeiZleba davarqvaT tomi: marTali xar, es ar gamodgeba sakuTari Tavis

socialuri

rolebi,

aramed

mdgomareobas

miaRwio, rom sakuTari Tavis usasulod gamravleba SegeZlos rogorc RmerTs. Tumca, RmerTis mimarT es ar unda iyos mTlad swori gansazRvreba, es ufro Cveni zRvruli mdgomareobis gansazRvrebaa, zRvari, romelSic SeiZleba RmerTad yofna SeigrZno,

gamravlebis anareklad brigita: anareklad gamodgeba adamiani, romelic mimdevrobiT akeTebs sxvadasxva moqmedebebs, ise, rom Tavisi adgilis Sesabamis moqmedebas ar axorcielebs

maqsimalurad daemsgavso RmerTs brigita: isev warmoudgenlamde mivediT tomi: ara, jer ar mivsulvarT

48

tomi: albaT. usaqmurebi arian mistikuri praqtikis ganmaxorcieleblis anareklebi brigita: anareklebi, erT-erTi SesaZlebli samyaro, romelic mistikis praqtikaSi erT-erT samyarod

mokvdavad aqcevs, amiT RmerTs baZavs eZebs im potenciur samyaros, sadac gmiris SesaZlebeli moqmedeba Ralatad

iqceva da mis ganxorcielebas iwyebs. brigita: igivea aRmoCenis da plagiatis, siyvarulis da Ralatis, daxmarebis da gulgrilobis SemTxvevebSi. tomi: ki magram eseni xom opoziciebi arian? brigita: albaT mxolod Cvens warmodgenebSi. opozicia aris warmodgenis is bolo instancia, romelsac Cveni goneba mimarTavs arsebulis warmosadgenad. tomi: iseve, rogorc Cveni saubris es bolo, da albaT mTlinad saubaric, sul da advilad daiyvaneba

iqceva. meore mxriv, Tuki Tanamedrove, erTaderT SesaZlebel mistikur gamocdilebas sakuTari Tavis gamravlebas mivubrundebiT, miviRebT, rom Tuki es gamocdileba adgilis dakavebasTanaa dakavSirebuli, erTaderTi SesaZlebelia, mistikuri gamocdileba, romelic Tuki

administraciuli

yofila,

gaviTvaliswinebT im srul da zRvramde miyvanil institucionalizacias, Cveni samyaro rom xasiaTdeba. tomi: kidev erTi mniSvnelovani daskvna: yvelafers aqvs misi momijnave SesaZlebeli ganxorcieleba.

mravalsazrisianobis

mravalinterpretaciis

SesaZleblobis mouxeSav gamoTqmaze brigita: anu, rom arc araferi gviTqvams tomi: arc vapirebdiT raimes Tqmas.

mxolod amiT SeiZleba aixsnas gmirebis moRalateebad da moRalateebis mkvlevarebad interpretacia.

SeiZleba warmoudgeneli azri SevimuSaoT, romlis mixedviTac kvlevis, interpretatori, an oratori, romelic istoriuli formebis volandi: rogor

aq da dRes
unda vimoqmedo, Cemi moqmedeba universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces?

winadadebebis

saSualebiT, gmirs moRalated, an sulac Cveulebriv


49

berliozi: universaluri bunebis kanonad rom iqces ki ara, ise unda imoqmedo, rom amave dros gindodes, rom Seni moqmedeba samyaros mowyobis universaluri wesi gaxdes volandi: Sen saidan ici? berliozi: mec maqvs raRac wignebi wakiTxuli

iqneba, maSin es ar ivargebs samyaros kanonad da amitom uars vityvi TviTmkvlelobaze berliozi: hoo, eg moxuci meore moxucs ar icnobda,

asiode wlis Semdeg rom dawera didi traqtati, sadac ambobs, rom SeiZleba iseTi samyaro arsebobdes, sadac

TviTmkvleloba cxovrebis wesia volandi: xo, magram yvelanairi TviTmkvleloba ara marto altruistuli Tavis gawirva da rame berliozi: moica, avtorma xom sul daabnia mkiTxveli

volandi: mere, cota sasacilo ar aris eg ambavi? berliozi: romeli?

volandi: ai, morali, wesi, romlis mixedviTac roca vmoqmedeb, sul unda maxsovdes, rom ra moxdeba, Tu es moqmedeba samyaros mowyobas daedeba safuZvlad berliozi: ratomaa sasacilo?

pirvel moxucSi xom kanti igulisxmeba volandi: meoreSi ki durkhaimi berliozi: unda vTqvaT, Torem vin gaagrZelebs kiTxvas volandi: me mgoni arc amis mere moiklaven Tavs berliozi: sul nu dakargav imeds, ase TviTmkvlelobamdec mixval volandi: aq? berliozi: ho

volandi: imitom, rom aqedan gamodis, rom me Tu vici samyaros mowyobis universaluri wesi, maSin vici rogor unda vimoqmedo da Sesabamisad, sul aRar mWirdeba raRaceebze vifiqro da vzomo da vwono berliozi: ra unda wono?

volandi: ai, moxucs rom aqvs Tavi ar unda movikla, imotom, rom Tu warmovidgen, rom yvelam unda moiklas Tavi, roca gamouval mdgomareobaSi

volandi: aba rogor berliozi: ai

volandi: ra?
50

volandi: volandi: ra iyo?

ho,

rac

SenTvis

da

CemTvis

SeuZlebelia

avtorze varT damokidebulebi, da Tu unda gagvaCumebs, Tu unda agvalaparakebs

volandi: sad gaqri?

berliozi:

Tavis mokvla mogindeba kacs.. kargi, davbrundeT

moxucebTan sasaciloao ambobdi volandi: sad xar? volandi: aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa.. berliozi: ra iyo, SegeSinda? ai Tu ar aris volandi: xo, imas vambobdi, rom me Tu darwmunebuli var rom vici, rogor da ra principebze agebulia samyaro? magaliTad arsebobisaTviso brZolaze, maSin? berliozi: ar mouxdenia, ise ra me rom Sen maSin ra?

SesaZlebeli aq Tavis mokvla volandi: viyvire, aranairi avtorma efeqti mayvira,

volandi: maSin yvela Cemi moqmedeba arsebobisaTvis brZoliT iqneba gansazRvruli da albaT, sul ar iqneba iseTi

Torem

ubralod gaCumdi berliozi: Sen ambob rom aq gaCumeba Tavis mokvlis

moraluri, kants rom warmoaedgina berliozi: iqneb sxva rames gulisxmobda?

tolfasi ar aris? volandi: ra Tqma unda ara. Tavi rom moikla, aq veRar unda dabrunde, an avtori gaxde, an sxva vinme, tani unda moipovo, rac SeuZlebelia. es ki ra aris gaCumdi da mere daiwye laparaki berliozi: sul unda gavqre?

volandi: Tu gulisxmobda, daewera berliozi: egre advili ki ar iyo im dros dawero rasac

gulisxmob mTli tomi unda dagewera imisaTvis, rasac fiqrobdi rom dagesabuTebina volandi: me mgoni mainc sxva rames gulisxmobda me romc vicode, rom samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa, iqneb ar mindodes, rom arsebobisaTvis brZolaSi momklan?
51

berliozi:

SeiZleba Zalian Zlieri xar da arc

berliozi:

ise, rom icode, kantis wesebi mainc dasavluri

fiqrob, rom mogklaven. piriqiT, darwmunebuli xar, rom yvelas moerevi. Tanac, iseTi ganaTleba gaqvs miRebuli, romlis mixedviTac utyuarad ici, rom samyaros kanoni arsebobisaTvis brZolaa volandi: maSin Segisrulebia moxucis moraluri

civilizaciisaTvisaa, rogorSic cxovrobda da rogorSic warmoedgina volandi: ara mgonia is iseT wesebs eZebda, yvela

SemTxvevisaTvis rom iqnebodnen gamosadegni berliozi: mere ar gamouvida

moTxovna. kantis dros skolebSi samyaros mowyobis principebs ar aswavlidnen berliozi: aswavlidnen, magram maSin samyaros

volandi: arc egre ar unda iyos saqme Tu ase SevxedavT gulisxmobda kanti im Tavis universalur wesSi, rom yvela unda asrulebdes am wess? berliozi: maSin, im Cveni magaliTis Sinaarsi ra unda iyos?

mowyobis ZiriTadi principi moraluri iyo volandi: amitom, sruliad mosalodneli iyo, rom kantis ZiriTad droindeli principze adamiani Tu samyaros mowyobis da

minda Tu ara, rom yvela iyos mzad Tavis gawirvisaTvis ama da am SemTxvevaSi? volandi: ho.. berliozi: maSin gamova rom minda rom yvela mzad iyos

ifiqrebda,

arsebuli

naswavli warmoudgeboda cxvirwin berliozi: kargi, imaze raRas ityvi adamianoba

Tavis gawirvisaTvis garkveul SemTxvevebSi, Tan kenisbergel moxucs sityvaze nu daviWerT. ra icoda, rom parizeli moxuci Tavganwirvas TviTmkvlelobaSi gaiyvanda volandi: marTalia, magram aq meore ambavia berliozi: ra ambavi?

mizani rom unda iyos? volandi: me Tu kanibali var? Tu Cemi miTologia meubneba, rom saukeTeso rac SemiZlia gavukeTo

mters misi guli SevWamo, rom misma arsebam CemSi gaagrZelos cxovreba?

52

volandi:

me

mTeli

rigi

codnebi

unda

mqondes

berliozi:

kargi, egre iyos, magram eg xom ar cvlis

imisaTvis, rom moralurad moviqce berliozi: ratom?

ZiriTad problemas mxolod Zalian cota adamians maT saerTo raodenobasTan SedarebiT uCndeba kiTxvebi

volandi: imitom, rom unda vicode ra aris samyaro, misi mowyoba, universaluri wesi da bolos da

moralurobis Sesaxeb volandi: kiTxvebic da pasuxebic berliozi: ho, xoda Tu cota adamins uCndeba xom ar

bolos elementaruli warmosaxva unda mqondes berliozi: imisaTvis, rom Seni moqmedeba

aris es samyaro ZirSive da potenciurad amoraluri? volandi: albaT ara, imitom, rom am samyaros mowyobis wesi swored im adamianebis xelSia, visac SeiZleba gauCndes

warmosaxviTi samyaros arsebobis universalur wesad warmoidgino? volandi: ho berliozi: ganaTlebis maSin ra gamodis mxolod garkveuli mqone adamianebs SeuZliaT iyvnen

kiTxva moraluroba-amoralurobis Sesaxeb berliozi: anu marto mmarTvelebi da politikosebi?

volandi: ara maTi ricxvi ufro metia faqtiurad yvela ganaTlebuli adamiani romlebic swavloben, aswavlian, marTaven da ase Semdeg berliozi: magram me ra garantia maqvs, rom es adamianebi

moralurebi da amoralurebi? volandi: ase gamodis principSi asecaa, Seni saqcielis moraluroba/amoralurobis Sesaxeb kiTxva xom maSin giCndeba, raRac ganaTleba rom gaqvs da amave dros - warmoadgena moralurze da amoralurze berliozi: an, igive kiTxva giCndeba Tu raimes

sworad aswavlian, an moralurobis swored aseT, an msgavs formulebs atareben? volandi: ra Tqma unda ara gvaqvs garantia, magram meore mxriv, aq TviTgadarCenis da TviTSenarCunebis faqtorebi erTvebian
53

miRweva ginda raimes gamorCenis mizniT volandi: eg xom erTi da igivea

berliozi:

rogor?

berliozi:

anu, aseTi moqmedebebis, im SemTxvevaSic ki, Tu

volandi: ai rogor Tuki Sen raRac mcire gagaCnia sul erTia es Seni qoneba materialuria Tu

Sen mxolod sakuTari qonebis dacvaze xar orientirebuli, saboloo mizani kacobriobaa? volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki Sen moindomeb rom marto Sen ki ar icavde Sens sakuTrebas, aramed, sxvac icavdes, maSinac, rodesac Sen amis Tavi an dro ar geqneba berliozi: maSin, gamodis rom rac ar unda ifiqros vinmem

simboluri, Sen yovelTvis Seecdebi iseTi wesebi SemoiRo, rom SenTvis am sakuTrebis warTmeva rTuli aRmoCndes. Sesabamisad, sabolood mixval iqamde, rom SenTvisac rTuli aRmoCndeba sxvisTvis raime

sakuTrebis warTmeva berliozi: axsnaa volandi: aranairad sinamdvileSi berliozi: ras CaveWideT am sityvas Zalian utilitaruli da merkantiluri

da sakuTari kapitalis SenarCunebaze izrunos, sabolood mainc mivalT iseT wesebamde, romelic samyaros mowyobis universalur wesad gamodgeba? volandi: ho, magram es droSi Zalian gawelili procesia berliozi: da realurad SeiZleba ar moxdes an Zalian

volandi: sinamdviles? berliozi: ho

cota SemTxvevaSi moxdes? volandi: ho. magram meore mxriv ganaTleba iseTi

volandi: ra Cveni bralia berliozi: ra vici, ra vici

bunebisaa, rom misma mimRebma ukve icis meore mxare anu, misTvis ukve cnobilia samyaros mowyoba ra xifaTebi da sargeblebi elodeba da vin arian im samyaroSi, romlSic is cxovrebas apirebs berliozi: albaT, ganaTlebis yvelaze ufro mniSvnelovani

volandi: hoda imas geubnebodi, sinamdvileSi, ase rom vxsniT maSin gamoiyureba cota zedmetad

merkantilurad, Tore ise es iseTive kacobriobaze zrunvaa, moxuci rom ambobda

Sedegi aris is, rom misma mimRebma icis, rom samyaros


54

mowyobas safuZvled Tanasworoba udevs. ase aris yvela saganmanaTleblo iqneba es sistemaSi sabrZolo da nebismieri xelovnebebis

kidev arseboben da is ar unda elodos, rom es misnairebi erT mSvenier dRes gaqrebian volandi: anu, is iRebs codnas im realobis Sesaxeb

ganaTleba

swavleba Tu literaturis, am ideas efuZneba volandi: raRac Zalian gawele berliozi: me ufro mokled mindoda, magram am dros

romelSic is cxovrobs da romelic principulad misnairi arsebebiT arian dasaxlebulebi berliozi: da Sesabamisad, rac ar unda diskriminaciuli ganaTleba miiRo, am ganaTlebiT iReb utyuar codnas sxva Sennairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb volandi: Tu ganaTleba kasturia? berliozi: kasturi ganaTleba gimtkicebs da gaswavlis

avtori CaerTo da raRaceebi daamata volandi: hoda ra gindoda mokled geTqva? berliozi: is, rom ganaTlebis universaluri Sedegi

aris imis Canergva rom Sens garda sxva Sennairebic arseboben da principulad Sens da maT Soris

Sens gansxvavebulobas da aRmatebuloba/damcirebulobas volandi: ki magram, isec xom SeiZleba SevxedoT, rom me Cemniarebis maqvs arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ganaTlebis gareSec

gansxvaveba ar aris volandi: eg raRac ucnauri Tqvi libertaniul ferebSi.. berliozi: sulac ara da swored es aris Cvens

berliozi: Cemnairebis arsebobis Sesaxeb codna ki maqvs ganaTlebis gareSe, magram Cveni erTnairobis Sesaxeb codna mxolod ganaTlebiT Semodis CemSi imdenad, ramdenadac ganaTleba me maswavlis gansxvavebas da sxvebze warmatebis mopovebas, is amiT me maswavlis, rom sxvebi principiulad Cemnairebi arian. da Tu es ar viswavle rasac maswavlian
55

samyaroSi moralis safuZveli nebismieri adamiani nebismier socialur garemoSi raRacnair ganaTlebas yovelTvis iRebs, Sesabamisad, is yovelTvis iRebs imis sarwmuno mtkicebas, rom mis garda misnairebi

magaliTad,

brZola rac

ver -

movipoveb dabadebiT

im an

volandi: an gaTanabreba, an raRac jgufis gamoyofa da masze dawola es aseTi azrovnebis aucilebeli Sedegia

gansxvavebulobas, jadosnurad

mekuTvnis

Tavidan gvegona rom kenisbergeli moxucis naTqvami marto evropel adamians exeboda da albaT, qedmarluriao,

volandi: anu, yvelanairi ganaTlebis safuZveli aris is, rom adamianebi erTnairebi arian da amitom

vfiqrobdiT, exla mivediT daskvnamde, rom yvelas exeba da amitom principSi susti moTxovnaa, bevrs arafers

yvelanairi ganaTlebis Sedegi sabolood erTi da igivea samyaros iseTi mowyobis SemuSaveba,

gavaldebulebs berliozi: marTalia me yoveldRiurobaSi is ki ar

romelic am adamianebis erTnairobas iTvaliswinebs berliozi: Tavisi ho, gamodis, rom adamianis arseboba moraluri mTavaria vin kiTxvebis da rogor dasmiskenaa scems am

mainteresebs, Teoriulad var Tu ara pasuxismgebli Cems moqmedebebze aramed is, Tu rogor unda moviqce volandi: hoo, mag kiTxvaze pasuxs raRac davSordiT berliozi: ho, davSordiT da exla isev unda davubrundeT

arsiT

mimarTuli

kiTxvaze pasuxs volandi: anu, yvela adamiani, Tundac yvelaze

albaT im ori ZiriTadi ganwyobidan unda amovideT, moralur qmedebas rom udevs safuZvlad volandi: romeli im oridan? berliozi: es sakmaod martivi oria pirveli ar unda

primitiuli tomis wevri iyos, Tavisi moqmedebiT scems pasuxs kiTxvas, Tu rogor unda iyos samyaro mowyobili berliozi: rac exla Tqvi, erTis mxriv yvelas

elodo jildos moralurad qcevisaTvis da meore ar unda moaxdino Seni saqcielis afiSireba-

moraluri pasuxismgeblobis aRiarebaa, magram meore mxriv yvelas da yovelis pasuxismgeblobis

reklamireba'gamoaSkaraveba

gaTanabreba
56

volandi: eg xom ar niSnavs, rom saerTod ar unda elodo jildos magaliTad simdidres? berliozi: ara, Tumca xSirad ase esmodaT me ki

berliozi: amoralur da

struqturalistebs moralur

gauxardebaT

yvelaze rom

saqciels

struqturulad

erTniarad rom vaxasiaTebT volandi: ho da albaT amitom gvgonia me da Sen rom es gansazRvra sworia iseve rogorc didi siyvarulis da didi siZulvilis, nebismieri mZafri da Zlieri

mgonia, rom Seni saqcielis moralurobis gamo ar unda elodo jildos, Torem saqcielis yvela sxva mxare jildovdeba, ganisjeba da ganikiTxeba volandi: da meore pirvelidan xom ar gamomdinareobs rom Seni moraluri saqcielis Sesaxeb aravin ar unda icodes, an aravis ar unda Seatyobino, an ise unda moiqce, rom principulad veravin gaigos moraluri saqcieli maSinaa moraluri, rodesac is ar xdeba gansjis sagani da amitom, principulad SeuZlebelia rom dajildovdes berliozi: mivediT? volandi: albaT ara jildos danaSaulTan principuli kavSirs idealuri danaSaulis aRweramde xom ar

dapirispirebulebis gansazRvrebisas berliozi: imis eg yvelaferi kargi, magram es mainc ar maZlevs Tu rogor unda moviqce me, konkretuli

codnas,

adamiani volandi: Zalianac nu daiCemeb konkretulobas berliozi: kargi, saxeli xom maqvs da konkretul adaminze

xom mivuTiTeb mainc volandi: kargi, nu gabrazdi, vixumre berliozi: ar gavbrazebulvar, gaaWira am avtorma saqme

volandi: kargi, davubrundeT Cveni qcevis sakiTxs berliozi: kargi. hoda, Tu qcevis sakiTxs vubrundebiT,

SeuZlebloba

idealur

gamoricxavs sxva mxriv ki marTali xar emTxveva

jer unda gavigoT, an odnav mainc unda SevexoT Tu rogor aris mowyobili Cveni samyaro volandi: ratom?
57

berliozi:

aba rogor unda davadginoT jildoebis

berliozi:

kargi. isev unda dagisva kiTxva zemoT ar

da saidumlod Senaxvis ambavi? volandi: marTali xar. uamisod davrCebiT zogadi frazebis amara da veravisac ver vetyviT,

davamTavreT amaze pasuxis gacema Cveni saqcielis dayofa SesaZlebelia moralurad da aramoralurad, Tu Cvens yovel saqciels aqvs moraluri mxare, nawili? volandi: albaT ufro meore Cvens yovel saqcielSi aris mxare, romelic moraluroba-amoralurobas gansazRvravs,

konkretulad rogori unda iyos qceva am samyaroSi berliozi: arada, yvela am didi da zogjer

bundovani azrebis ukan dgas survili icode Tu rogor unda moiqce am samyaroSi volandi: marTali xar ai Tundac erTi

amitom yvela saqcieli aris moraluri an amoraluri berliozi: yvela?

volandi: Cais daleva albaT ara berliozi: volandi: albaT arc quCaSi siaruli gadawyvetilebis miRebasTan xom ar aris

ingliseli rom Seecada Cveni Tavisufleba sityvebis da gamoTqmebis analizidan gamoeyvana berliozi: mere gamouvida?

dakavSirebuli? berliozi: xom iReb volandi: hoo berliozi: armiRebis maSin rogor unda vTqvaT? jildos miRebasurvilze rom davideT, maSin xom SeiZleba, principSi, gadawyvetilebas Cais dalevis drosac

volandi: TiTqos gamouvida, magram ara mgonia amis Semdeg mas Tavi ufro Tavisuflad egrZno berliozi: modi isev Tavidan daviwyoT

volandi: ara berliozi: ratom ara?

volandi: kiTxvas Tavs daanebeben berliozi: Tu ucbad vizamT, ara mgonia

viRaca borotebas imitom sCadis, rom ase unda da sul ar elodeba jildos miRebas?

volandi: kargi, vcadoT


58

volandi: egec SesaZlebelia, marTalia, ZiriTadaT literaturaSi berliozi: magram Cvenc xom aqa varT

volandi: im SemTxvevaSic, Tu SenTvis cnobili wesi Sorsaa Seni yofiTi warmodgenebidan: romelSic magaliTad, ici, rom im

samyaroSi,

cxovrob,

yovelTvis

boroteba

volandi: egecaa berliozi: maSin ra gamodis moralur saqciels

imarjvebs. am SemTxvevaSi, Tu Sen borotebas exmarebi, maSin, gamodis rom jildosaTvis moqmedeb, rac wina debulebas ewinaamRdegeba berliozi: nu mawyvetineb meTqi

srulad ver ganvsazRvravT verc jildos miRebaarmiRebis surviliT, verc gadawyvetilebis miRebis saerTo codniT, foniT, verc verc samyaros rom mowyobis Sens wesebis

volandi: kargi, gaagrZele berliozi: manifestacia volandi: Tu es moxda rac xdeba xolme, ar niSnavs, rom am SemTxvevaSic Seni saqcieli post faqtum xdeba da mesame ar unda moaxdino Seni saqcielis

surviliT,

saqcielSi

Cadebuli wesebis mixedviT moewyos samyaro.. volandi: ase rom vcadoT yvelaferi erTad rom iyos ganmsazRvreli, maSin ra gamova? berliozi: yelaferi erTad? aba vnaxoT: unda moiqce

amoraluri berliozi: maSasadame, ra miviReT moraluri moqmedebaa

ise, rom ar unda gindodes Seni saqcielis Sedegad jildo miiRo volandi: Tumca ase SeiZleba moxdes da es ar niSnavs rom Seni saqcieli post-faqtum xdeba amoraluri berliozi: ise, rom nu mawyvetineb amave dros unda moiqce Seni qceva SenTvis cnobil samyaros

rodesac iqcevi erTsa da imave dros - samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT, ar elodebi jildos Seni saqcielisaTvis da ar axdeb Seni saqcielis manifestacias. volandi: Tumca, am Seni saqcielisaTvis SeiZleba jildoc miiRo da manifestaciac moxdes, gaSuqdes televiziebSi da gazeTebSi da ase Semdeg
59

mowyobis wess emTxveodes

berliozi: miiRo premiebi da mogebebi aqciebidan.. volandi: Tundac berliozi: erTi daskvnac am SemTxvevaSi yoveli

moraluri gza davadginoT, da ara imitom, rom yvela drois da sivrcis universaluri wesi movigonoT berliozi: volandi: arc sxvebi igonebdnen, magram.. kargi, gaagrZele ise, meoTxe dagvaviwyda principuli

kokretuli saqcielis gazomva SeuZlebeli xdeba mxolod Senzea damokidebuli ramdenad CaTvli

gauzomveloba anu, Tuki Sen gaqvs sarwmuno saSualebebi imisaTvis, rom gazomo sxvisi moraluri an amoraluri qceva, maSin is ar aris swori berliozi: ki magram Cven rom vswavlobT xolme, aTi mcneba

sakuTar saqciels moralurobis sferoSi Sesulad da sabolood, moiqcevi volandi: mokled, am sami principis erTianoba ramdenad moralurad an amoralurad

da rame? volandi: eg xom swori da araswori qcevebis CamonaTvalia moiqcevi ase da RmerTi dagajildoebs, ara da ara.. berliozi: kargi, mere?

geubneba, rom Seni codna samyaros Sesaxeb ar unda gamoiyeno Seni piradi sargeblis mosapoveblad,

Tumca, ar gamoricxavs imas, rom Seni codna Sen sargebels mogapovebinebs da sabolood gagamdidrebs berliozi: es daskvna ki miviReT bevri gverdi

volandi: mere is, rom droa es oTxive niSani Cveni garemos enaze vTargmnoT da vnaxoT ra gamova berliozi: me megona aqamde vxumrobdiT ra samyaros

msjelobis Sedegad, amgram iseTi gansakuTrebuli ra aris amaSi? ase Tu ise yvela, vinc eTikurobaze da moralurobaze fiqrobs, ase iqceva volandi: egec marTalia, magram Cven es yvelaferi gvinda imisaTvis, rom Cvens samyaroSi qcevis

mowyobis wesis mixedviT unda moviqceT simebi da didi afeTqeba rogor unda gamoviyenoT? volandi: mag wesze ar unda vifiqroT eg drozea

damokidebuli Tan imdenad, rom me mgoni ukve Seicvala, an male Seicvleba


60

berliozi:

aba raze unda vifiqroT?

volandi: ase gamodis, ra gasakviric ar unda iyos.. berliozi: kargi, Tu egrea, maSin CemSi samyaro, anu, codna

volandi: raze da imaze, rac Cven dRevandel yofas udevs safuZlvad, rogoraa Cveni samyaro mowyobili, ufro sworad - rogor vigebT, rogoraa samyaro mowyobili berliozi: anu, Sen ambob, rom samyaro isea

samyaros Sesaxeb qselebiT Semodis volandi: Semosvla qselebiT ho, Tanac, Tuki asi, da orasi wlis winaT es

mxolod

patara

naglej-naglej

arsebuli

Semoifargleboda, dRes Cveni samyaros Sesaxeb

mowyobili, rogorc vigebT misi mowyobis Sesaxeb? volandi: ho berliozi: anu, me Tu orasi wlis win saeklesio

codnis qseluri gadacemis wesi aSkaraa berliozi: anu, Cven ara marto aRviqvamT Tavs sxvdasxva

qselebis da qseli wevrebad, aramed qseluroba da qseli Cveni samyaros TavisTavadnagulisxmevi safuZveli sxdeba volandi: eg marTlac asea yvelaferSi qsels kavSirebs da urTierTmoqmedebebs laparaki esmeva lamis xazi cud Tanac tonad ise, rom

skolaSi vigebdi samyaros mowyobis Sesaxeb.. volandi: da mere iwyebdi cxovreba im samyaroSi, sadac codnis gavrceleba ganmtkicebaSi eklesias

didi roli hqonda, Sesabamisad, samyaroc CemTvis ase iyo mowyobili berliozi: maSasadame..

qselebze

iTvleba

inteleqtualTa wreebSi berliozi: eg magaria ese igi swor gzaze vdgevarT

volandi: ra romantikuli sityvaa berliozi: qceva nu mawyvetineb, ra.. maSasadame, me Cemi mowyobas ki ar unda Sevusabamo,

volandi: yovelTvis ara, exla vnaxoT berliozi: volandi: hoda, imas ambobdi, qselebi rogorc gvqselaven xoda imas vambobdi Tuki Cveni samyaros

samyaros

aramed, imas, Tu rogor Semodis codna samyaros Sesaxeb CemSi?

TavisTavadnagulisxmevi mowyoba qseluria, es niSnavs, rom

61

Cveni samyaro, maT Soris adamianTa samyaroc Sedgeba qselebis qselisagan berliozi: ra magaria, TiTqmis Sua saukuneebi

berliozi:

kargi, kargi

volandi: da mere es patara qselebi erTmaneTTan qselis principebiT arian dakavSirebulni berliozi: volandi: es rogor? rogor da yoveli patara qselis wevrebi

volandi: nu cinikosob, amazec bevri uTqvamT wina saukunis moxuc semiotikosebs berliozi: semio.. vis?

izolirebulni ar arian da sxva qselebis wevrebTan aseve qselur kavSirebSi arian berliozi: zogi am kavSirTagan sustia, zogi Zlieri, zogi zogi piradi, zogi wuTieri, zogi

volandi: bodiSi, gamaxsebda rom Sen rom Segqmnes, eg mecniereba ar iyo.. ara aqvs mniSvneloba, mTavaria Cveni Temis boloSi gavideT, Torem dagveRala

korporaciuli, memkvidreobiTi

mkiTxveli, da ha da ha da migvatovebs berliozi: berliozi: samyaro kargi, kargi hoda imas vambobdi, rom Cveni, adamianTa Sedgeba patar-patara samyaroebisagan,

volandi: morCi mantras berliozi: volandi: boloSi berliozi: kargi, gavagrZeloT kargi, me ubralod mkiTxvels varTob mkiTxvels erTi ram unda droze gavideT

romlebic Tavad qselurebi arian berliozi: ra Tqma unda mini-samyaros simtkice

xom masSi nawilebis, da Cvens SemTxvevaSi, adamianebis kavSirebis simtkicezea damyarebuli volandi: nu ambob imas, rac TavisTavad cxadia berliozi: visTvis?

volandi: hoda, es kavSirebi qmnian Cvens qselur cxovrebas berliozi: sainteresoa, Tanac ise qmnian, rom samyaros am

aRweras Cveni civilizaciidan ycelaze ufro Sors mdgari jgufebic ki ver daaRweven Tavs raki viciT maTi arseboba, isini ukve qselSi arian gaxveulebi
62

volandi: mkiTxvelisTvis

volandi: kargi, da maSin rogori iqneba is moraluri qcevis sami aRwera aseTi samyaros SemTxvevaSi? berliozi: Tu oTxi? principuli gauzomvadoba

berliozi:

imas, rom.. albaT imas, rom Zalian ar unda

Caiketo erT qselSi, radgan adre Tu gvian, qselebis da kavSirebis erT mini-samyaroSi gabmis gamo, jildoebis wyeba ar agcdeba volandi: anu, gamova, Tu didxans SevrCi erT qselSi, erT mini-samyaroSi, gavakeTeb? rac ar unda gavakeTo, jildosTvis

dagaviwyda. romeli sami ar unda elodo jildos, ar unda moaxdino saqcielis manifestireba, da unda moiqce samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT? volandi: ho berliozi: samyaros mowyobis wesis mixedviT qceva

berliozi:

ase gamodis

niSnavs, rom xeli unda Sevuwyo qselurobas anu, vamyaro kavSirebi volandi: ki batono berliozi: manifestacia ar vakeTo niSnavs imas, da vamyaro qselebi da gavaba da gavaba

volandi: modi kidev erTxel davfiqrdeT amaze Tu me erT mini-samyaroSi SevrCi da gavagrZele socialuri kapitalis dagroveba berliozi: volandi: risi? socialuri kapitalis socialuri kapitali

rom ar unda viyviro amis Sesaxeb, rom me magari var qselebis da kavSirebis gabmaSi da rom es supermoraluri saqcielia volandi: da jildos ar elodo? berliozi: aq cota rTuladaa saqme jildos ar elodo unda niSnavdes, rom.. volandi: ras?

niSnavs im kavSirebs da qselebs romelsac adamiani agrovebs da agebs Tanamedrove samyaroSi da romelsac dRes ufro meti mogebis da fulis motana SeuZlia vidre fizikur kapitals berliozi: egre viTom?

63

volandi: befvri fiqrobs rom asea, imitom, rom yvela kapitalis dagrovebas win aseTi socialuri kapitalis dagroveba uswrebs.. berliozi: eseigi, me rom materialuri kapitali

berliozi: mxolod gadawyvet, moraluri

sityva kapitali nu dagabnevs, arc izomeba, es Sens rom gadawyvetilebazea Sens mier damokidebuli: dagroveba rodis cdeba

kapitalis da

saqcielis

farglebs

ZiriTadaT

mogebaze

davagrovo, amisaTvis jer socialuri kapitali unda Sevqmna? volandi: ho, an erTdroulad.. mokled, me Tu

orientirebuli xdeba volandi: marTali xar, mxolod wignis furclebze xdeba axali cnebebis aseTi swrafi aTviseba da mere gamoyeneba berliozi: kargi, kargi, nu daiboRme.. magram gamosavali ar

gavagrZele erT mini-samyaroSi socialuri kapitalis dagroveba, raRaca dones rom mivaRwev, me

gviTqvams - ki batono, qselebis Seqmna-ganmtkicebaze unda vizruno, unda Sevwyvito es saqme, roca Sevatyob, rom mxolod mogebis motanis saxe miiRo, magram ra unda vakeTo Tavi movikla? volandi: ai aq mivediT yvelaze saintereso adgilamde Tavi ki ar unda moikla, sxva mini-samyaroSi unda gadaxvide, sadac ar gaqvs iseTi socialuri kapitali, rac Sens

aucileblad miviReb amisagan sargebels, amitom amas unda averido, Tu moralurad minda rom moviqce berliozi: mier ratom? imitom rom raRac momentSi Sens kapitalis dagroveba gadaiqceva

socialuri

mxolod mogebis mizniT moqmedebad, da qselurobis xelis Seqyoba mxolod foni gaxdeba volandi: es yvelaferi kargi, magram xom ar mivediT gazomvadobamde? wina gverdebze xom vTqviT, rom Tu moraluri qcevis prinvipi sworia, gareSes, sxvis mier is ar unda izomebodes

sakuTar mini-samyaroebis erTobliobaSi gqonda da Tavidan daiwyo qselebis da kavSirebis gamravleba berliozi: da ase mTeli cxovreba?

volandi: ra Tqma unda, Tuki ginda, rom moralurad moiqce, Tumca, raki Sen aravin ar gyavs ganmsjeli da mosamarTle,
64

SegiZlia

raRac da

dros darCe

Sewyvito erT-erTSi

es

samyaroebSi arc aravin

berliozi:

Tanac, am SemTxvevaSi jildos ar-lodini da

mogzauroba

manifestaciaze uaris Tqma damatebiTi uzrunvelyofis funqcias asruleben.. volandi: marTalia, Tanac aq datovebulia TviTgamarTlebis wyaro adamins SeuZlia Tavisi Tavi daarwmunos Tanac yovelTvis, rom is jildosTvis ki ar muSaobs, mas ubralod mouwia jildos miReba, TviTon ki ar akeTebs sakuTari saqcielis manifestacias, sxvebi uwyoben da ase Semdeg berliozi: es yvelaferi mxolod moralurobis

getyvis arafers iqnebi SenTvis Tbilad da mSvidad, dagrovebuli kapitalebis garemocvaSi berliozi: anu, Cveni moralurobis wesi ar gacda

mxolod-sakuTari-Tavis-mier-SemowmebisSesaZleblobas? volandi: ara berliozi: saqcielamde magram, Cven mainc ver mivediT konkretul mainc zogadi wesebis warmoebaSi

gavrcelebas uwyobs xels da ara piriqiT volandi: albaT sxva SemTxvevaSi, Zalian mkacri rom iyos Zalian cota adamini Tu gaiziarebda berliozi: vinme volandi: arc unda moiklas moralurobaze miTiTeba da masze msjeloba imitom arsebobs, rom maZiebels gauadvilos gza, da ara imitom, rom yvelam gaiziaros berliozi: magram, konkretuli admianis saqcieli rogori arc am principebis gaziarebaze moiklavs Tavs

amovyaviT Tavi. konkretuli qceva rogori unda iyos? volandi: konkretul qcevad rom vTargmnoT Cveni wesebi, Semdeg suraTs miviRebT: Tuki samyaros

mowyobis wesis Sesabamisad viqcevi, me var mimarTuli qselebis da kavSirebis gamtkicebaze da axali

kavSirebis gaCenaze. ara mgonia romelime gawvrTnilma gonebam tyuili da mkvleloba, romelTaganac pirveli qselis daSlas emuqreba, meore ki qselis moWidebis adgilis - adamianis gaqrobas qselis ganmtkiceba-

unda iyos, mainc ar vTqviT

gafarToebad CaTvalos
65

volandi: rogori da Seecados ar daebas romelime konkretul qselSi, mudmivad imogzauros samyarodan samyaroSi, Seqmnas axali kavSirebi da mini-samyaroebi berliozi: eseigi, Tuki aqamde moralurobis da

moraluri qcevis xats brZola warmoadgebda, exla mogzauroba unda iyos misi simboluri gamomxatveli? volandi: ho, anu, amiT Cven mogzaurobas vabrunebT inteleqtualur samyaroSi, gamarTlebas vuZebniT,

vacilebT cnobierebis ubedurebaSi dadanaSaulebas da kidev bevr da bevr rames vakeTebT berliozi: brZola xom rCeba mainc?

volandi: ki, magram brZola am SemTxvevaSi ar aris moralurobis aucilebeli nawili mxolod rogorc iaraRi da saSualeba, isic garkveul SemTxvevebSi berliozi: moraluri? volandi: sxva dialogis dawyebiT Cveni dialogi ki rogor gaxdeba

66

dialogi
tomi: isev aqa varT brigita: ho heklberi: mere ra? beki: arc araferi, garkveuli azriT sasixaruloc kia di: ratom? TeTri orqidea: eg xom isedac gasagebia es aris Cveni yofnis erTaderTi forma volandi: amitom ra muxlebze daveceT da avtorze vilocoT, kidev erTxel rom Segvkriba da dagvwera? berliozi: ara mgonia rom es undodes amas Tanac Tu es

TeTri orqidea: es damoukidebloba, romc gvqondes, ar unda gavigoT ise, rom avtonomiurebi varT volandi: avtonomiuroba ra aris? berliozi: ai, Tundac, damoukidebeli kvebis wyaro rom gaqvs tomi: am azriT ar varT damoukideblebi avtoris

kompiuteris klaviaturaze varT mibmulebi brigita: da misi TiTebis moZraobaze heklberi: da mis survilze beki: da imaze, rac icis di: ai, swored mand ar aris TviTon Tavisufali da mand SeiZleba vipovoT Cven Cveni Tavisuflebis wyaro TeTri orqidea: raSi raRac tradiciebiT da codnebiT rom aris gansazRvruli misi muSaoba? volandi: ho, is xom erTis mxriv Tavisufalia Cvns mimarT, magram, meore mxriv iZulebulia sakuTari ganaTlebis,

gaviTavaliswinebT, namdvilad ar unda

gvalaparakebs,

tomi: sakmaod primitiuli xerxia brigita: meore mxriv rameTi xom unda daewyo heklberi: exla Sen xar amas rom ambob, Tu avtori? beki: ra gansxvavebaa? di: mainc maqvs imedi, rom mcire damoukidebloba mainc gvaqvs

tradiciis da umsjelobebis gadakveTaSi weros berliozi: anu, Tqven ambobT, rom is rom axla amas wers, es mTlianad mis nebaze ar aris damokidebuli? tomi: ho
67

brigita:

hoda,

Tu

is

wers

ise,

rom

ar

aris

di: ho, Sinaarss, mimarTulebas volandi: konkretul magram imas, Tu Cvens rogor yovel unda daweros, anu, Cven

mTlianad masze damokidebuli ras wers, swored es aris Cveni Tavisuflebis safuZveli heklberi: ki magram, es ormagi damokidebuleba xom ar aris? beki: ara am samyaroSi Cven da avtori varT, es samyaro marto Cveni da avtorisaa. Tu is iseT rames akeTebs, rac ar unda, Tu Cveni laparaki da saubari yovelTvis is ar aris, rac mas winaswar

formas,

gadalaparakebas,

TviTon vkarnaxobT? berliozi: daaxloebiT asea tomi: kargi, davuSvaT raRac gaurkvevel Tavisuflebas

mivageniT brigita: gamodis arc ise iq gaurkvevelia, sadac avtori saintereso izRudeba, paradoqsi personaJi

warmoaudgenia.. .. .. di: da Tu xandaxan.. .. xandaxan ki ara, TiTqmis yovelTvis, man ar icis ras dawers meore momentSi, Cven Tavisuflebi vyofilvarT, imitom, rom Tuki SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom avtoris Semdgom nabijs gansazRvravs tradicia da misi garemo, aseTive

Tavisufldeba heklberi: me mgoni aq ganTavisuflebis magivrad

damoukidebloba unda gamoviyenoT di: eseigi, rodesac is avtorisagan damoikideblad iwyebs moqmedebas berliozi: anu, rodesac avtors personaJis xasiaTi da warsuli karnaxobs ra unda gaakeTos da ara nawarmoebis zogadi CarCo volandi: me mgoni amas SeiZleba Tavisuflebac ki davarqvaT

warmatebiT SegviZlia vivaraudoT, rom Cven, Cveni garemo, Tundac Cveni wina cxovrebebi, gansazRvraven mis, da maSasadame, Cvens moqmedebebs TeTri orqidea: Sen ginda Tqva, rom avtori ki gansazRvravs strategiulad ra unda rom daweros

68

TeTri orqidea: im azriT, rom am Tavisuflebis Tu damoukideblobis momentebSi Sen Sens Semoqmedze ar xar damokidebuli da misgan Tavisufldebi tomi: SeiZleba egerec vTqvaT heklberi: maSin gamodis, rom absoluturi azriT me mainc raRacaze var damokidebuli, magram am samyaros konkrtulobaSi aris momentebi da mTeli pasaJebic ki, rodesac damoukidebeli da Tavisufali var? brigita: ho, egrea. beki: kargi. raki davadgineT Cveni Tavisuflad yofnis SesaZlebloba, gvesaubra? volandi: eg sainteresoa? TeTri orqidea: albaT di: ara mgonia. ra unda iyos saintereso imaSi, rom vlaparakobT berliozi: ki ar vlaparakobT, dialogs veweviT tomi: dialogSi varT heklberi: hoda, am dialogSi yofnas Tavisi azri unda qondes, Torem xom SeeZlo avtors Cveulebrivi, Cveni yofnis formazec xom ar

naratiuli, TxrobiTi stiliT daewera risi Tqmac undoda brigita: hoda, mkiTxvelebi rom moezida, es forma moifiqra di: alabT egrec iyo, magram mxolod es ar unda iyos dialogis da monologis gansxvaveba brigita: monologis? volandi: ho, dialogis garda yvela sxva weris forma monologia berliozi: maSin is Tvisebebi unda CamovTvaloT, rac

monologs aqvs da mere vnaxavT dialogi risi maqnisia da ratom varT masSi moqceulebi tomi: nuu, monologi yovelTvis raRcas amtkicebs TeTri orqidea: monologis moyola advilia, mosmenis Semdeg heklberi: monologebis citireba SeiZleba beki: me mgoni, mniSvnelovania, rom monologi

erTmniSnelovnad ambobs rasac ambobs, anu, iwyeba msjelobiT da mTavrdeba daskvniT di: Sen ginda Tqva, rom monologi calsaxa da

sworxazovania?

69

TeTri orqidea: yvela ara, magram Tavisi formiT naratiuli diskursi, anu, TxrobiTi stili, wesi, gamoxatvis forma, aseTia volandi: dialogi raRa jandabaa? berliozi: aqedan gamomdinare, dialogs sapirispiro niSnebi aqvs tomi: magaliTad ra? brigita: is, rom dialogs ver mohyvebi dialogad, is monologad unda mohyve, rac misi gadmocemis formas cvlis heklberi: da maSasadame Sinaarssac beki: ho, dialogi an unda dadga, ramdeni moqmedi piricaa, imdenis monawileobiT, an unda monologad aqcio di: Tan, dialogi albaT, yvelaze ufro hgavs im process, azris gaCena rom hqvia sxvadasxva azrebis Sejereba, winaamRdegobebis Zebna, raime daskvnebis

volandi: dialogi aris azri mTlianobaSi, da ara misi daskvna da sabolood miRebuli debuleba berliozi: mTeli dialogi aris is, rasac SeiZleba azri davarqvaT tomi: da is, rasac monologebiT vismenT msolod azris moWrili boloebia brigita: ki magram, dialogebidan gamomdinare azrebs xom iyeneben xolme? heklberi: mxolod mas mere, rac monologad gardaqmnian beki: eseigi, dialogi aris erTaderTi forma, romlidanac ar gemuqreba arc Seni azrebis gadasxvafereba, arc raimes

miwera Senze? di: ho, faqtiurad egrea. dialogi imitom ki ar aris dialogi, rom ramdenime adamians Soris midinareobs, aramed imitom, rom is aiZulebs avtoris warmosaxvas mTlianad azri gadmosces, da yoveli msjeloba mogvces ganixilos azri pro da

kontrebiT,

sabolood

mTlianad,

gakeTeba da ase usasrulod TeTri orqidea: anu, dialogi TviTon aris azri

Seukveceli da dauWreli TeTri orqidea: amitom dialogs ver moyvebi, mxolod

SegiZlia dawero
70

volandi: da ra azri aqvs imis daweras, rasac ver moyvebi? berliozi: is azri, rom dialogi aris erTaderTi forma, romelic SeiZleba gamoiyeno werisas da amave dros ar miiRo naweri tomi: anu, wero ise, rom ar wero? brigita: ho, wero ise, rom ar wero, imotom, rom weris mizania azris gadmocema, dawurva, erT-or gadacema

berliozi: monologebs

me

mgoni weren

Zalian da

kargi

formac

gvaqvs

rom

kiTxuloben

imisaTvis,

ilaparakon, mohyvenen. beki: ho, da dialogs ver acitireb, Tu acitireb erTerTi personaJis monologis citireba gamogiva da amitom es ar iqneba dialogis citireba tomi: marTalia dialogi aris azris gadmocema amitom is salaparakod ar gibiZgebs, is gibiZgebs fiqrisaken da sakuTar TavSi dialogis aRmoCenisaken brigita: daiwyo ezoterika

winadadebaSi

moqceva,

informaciis

sxvisaTvis, mokled da gasagebad heklberi: gamodis? beki: ho, da eg aris dauwereli filosofiis azri platons rom awerdnen da mere didxans eZbdnen di: platonis dauwereli filosofia misi maSin dawerili dialogi dauwereli

heklberi: teqstebs

aranairi Soris

ezoterika mxolod

struqturaa iseTi,

aseTi

ver

dialogia

rasac

gamoTqvam rom gamoTqva, sxva teqstad unda gardaqmna beki: da maSin is ukve dialogi aRar iqneba di: Tu gamoTqvam, dialogis bunebas kargav TeTri orqidea: an SeiZleba dadga volandi: maSin xom gamoTqma aRar iqneba iqneba dadgma da azris gaTamaSeba

dialogebia? TeTri orqidea: zustad volandi: ras ar gaigeb kaci

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berliozi: SegviZlia vTqvaT, rom yvela monologs, anda, nebismier teqsts safuZvlad dialogi da

berliozi:

gamodis,

rom

monologiur-teqsturoba

Cveni

yoveldRiurobis safuZvelSia tomi: da dialoguroba aris erTaderTi gza vifiqroT

dialoguroba udevs? tomi: ra Tqma unda nebismieri teqsti aris

fiqris, da ara gayidvis da gasaRebis formiT brigita: ase gamodis heklberi: davbrundeT iq, sadac beki: arsad ar unda davbrundeT dialogi arsad ar wasula, eg fraza davbrundeT aseve gasayidi formaa, germaneli vaWrebi mimarTaven xolme

dialogis

gardaqmna

gamosayeneblad,

gasayidaT,

bazarze gasatanad brigita: rac sul ar niSnavs, rom es cudia heklberi: sulac ara ubralod yofnis sxvadasxva formebze valparakobT beki: da ubralod, vcdilobT vifiqroT iq, im

di: yovelTvis CvenTan iyo da yovelTvis SegveZlo misTvis migvemarTa TeTri orqidea: mokled mag sentimentalobebs SeveSvaT, erTi xom cxadia Cven Cveni dialogebiT fiqrze varT mimarTulebi da vcdolobT azrovnebas volandi: ki magram, wignis maRaziaSi rom gaviyidebiT, es ar aris raRac Secdoma Cvens dialogSi? tomi: ra azriT monologad xom ar viqceviT? brigita: ara, ubralod, monologis formaSi gavexveviT,

adgilas, romelic yvelaze ufro Seefereba azrs dialogSi di: marTalia sxva mxriv, monologur-teqsturi fiqri hgavs produqtis gayidvas warmoebis procesis CvenebiT TeTri orqidea: eg xom xdeba xolme sareklamo rgolebSi axdenen volandi: aba ra magaliTad, risgan Sedgeba produqciis warmoebis simulacias rom

droebiT, da mere Cven viciT volandi: es raRac SeTqmulebis msgavsia


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snikersi, rogor iwarmoeba yava Cibo

berliozi: aba sxvanairad rogor unda wavakiTxoT Tavi? volandi: droze davamTavroT, Torem ukve ise

vlaparakobT, monologuri suni avuSviT tomi: ise, Tu exla gvkiTxuloben, es niSnavs, rom ukve waikiTxes yvela dialogi, rac am wignSia? brigita: daiwyes heklberi: waikiTxaven beki: vnaxoT mere ra, Tu aqamde movidnen, sxvebsac ar aris aucilebeli, SeiZleba CveniT

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