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PROTECT I

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In Draft Air Pollution Permit to Install

Cleveland Public Power 8 Waste Gasification Facility 9 Cleveland, Ohio
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Transcript Estabrook commencing

of proceedings Protection Center,

held before the at the

Ohio Environmental

Agency,

Recreation

4125 Fulton Road, January 9, 2012,

16 Cleveland,

Ohio 44144, on Monday, at 6:00 p.m.

20 APPEARANCES: 21
22 23 24 25

Kristopher Weiss, Ohio EPA Public Involvement Coordinator David Hearne, Cleveland Quality Division of Air

Andrew Hall, Ohio EPA Division of Air Pollution Control

FINCUN-MANONI - THE COURT REPORTER&> (216) 696-2212

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PROCEEDINGS ISS: aring is to ac record re to install purpose of his public comme s on official
lon pe
t

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rding a dra r Cleveland

air pol

Public Power's cility. Ohio

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proposed waste gasification

EPA published a public notice to announce the hearing and public comment period regarding the application in newspapers in the area.

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The notice was issued in Ohio EPA's Weekly Review, which is a pUblication county, all agency activities that lists, by and actions

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taking place in the State of Ohio. Written and oral comments received as part of the official record are reviewed by Ohio EPA prior to a final action of the Director. To be included in the official

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record, written comments must be received by the close of business on Monday, January 23, 2012. Comments received after this date may allow

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be considered as time and circumstances

but will not be part of the official record of this hearing. Written comments can be filed with us this evening or submitted to David Hearne

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FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COUQT QfPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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Cleveland Division of 75 Eri 44114.

r-

lity, 2nd floor, Ohio,

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ew Plaza, Suite 200, Cleveland, This address can also be found on And again, the public

tonight's agenda.

comment period ends on Monday, January 23, 2012. It's important for you to know that all comments received in writing, all written comments given time me this evening, and all verbal comments given tonight will receive the same consideration. Email too. Because we

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need to leave the building by 9:00 tonight, I ask that those who are seconding previous comments to consider saying you agree with previous testimony or to submit your comments In writing, so everybody might have a chance to testify this evening. I ask that all exhibits, including overheads

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written speeches, maps, photographs,

and any other physical evidence referred to in your testimony be submitted to today as part of the official record. If you choose not to

submit this information, Ohio EPA cannot ensure the accuracy of your testimony. A

court reporter is here this evening to make a

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT QEPOQTER& (216) 696-2272

PB8e4
record of
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se proceedings. and comments made a public known

Questions

hearing will be responded to a document as a responslveness summary.

The Director of the

Ohio EPA, after considering recommendations

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of the program staff and

comments presented by the public, may choose to issue or deny the air pollution permit-toinstall. Once the Director makes a final

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decision, that decision, along with the responsiveness summary, will be provided to

the applicant and all persons who have so many comments, presented testimony this evening, or on the

who have provided contact information sign-in sheet at the registration

table.

Final actions of the Director may be appealed to the Environmental Commission, or ERAC. Review Appeals

This board is separate

from Ohio EPA and reviews cases in accordance with Ohio's environmental rules and laws. Any

ERAC decision is appealable to the Franklin County Court of Appeals. Any order of the to the

Court of Appeals may be appealable Supreme Court Ohio.

Each individual may testify only once

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPOQTER8> (216) 696-2272

Pt18c5
and speak for three minutes, so I ask that you
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use your time wisely and be respect others providing

1 of

their comments and questions.

I'll give you a one minute signal as you're giving testimony tonight. examination There is no cross-

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of the speaker or Ohio EPA in public hearings of this

representatives type.

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Ohio EPA's public hearing affords to provide input.

citizens an opportunity

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Therefore, we will not be able to answer questions during the hearing. The hearing may ask

officer or an Ohio EPA representative clarifying

questions of speakers to ensure

that the record is as complete and accurate as possible. If you have a question that was not responded to during the Q&A session, please

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ask it on the record, and the agency will respond to your concerns in writing within the responsiveness testimony. summary. We will now receive

As I call on you, please come to up here, state your name, spell

the microphone

it for the record and proceed. The first person to testify will be Representative Dennis Kucinich, followed by

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Tony Brancatelli. PRESENTATIVE

lause) KUCINI Thank you.

My name is Dennis Kucinich, K-u-c-i-n-i-c-h. Oh, and also, one other, n-o. here as the Congressional the people of this area. ause.) I'm of

Representative

I'm also here as the

ranking Democrat in the United States Congress and the subcommittee over the EPA. that has jurisdiction

I want to state for the record

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that regarding some of the questions that have been asked here, (I'm)totally dissatisfied

with the way that this process has been conducted. The community has not been

involved but it will be involved, I can promise you. (Applause. )

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I want to announce here tonight, that I am going to work to bring representatives our Domestic Policy Subcommittee in the hearing of

Congress here for a full Congressional where preliminary

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to that we will gain access I can promise

to the EPA's documents on this.

you that, that we'll galn access to information that has not been brought forward

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in a full way with respect to the toxic emissions, with respect to public health

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER&> (216) 696-2272

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impacts, with respe thing

to the way that this

s been set up, that the public has a ir health protected. And and a

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right to have

that as the person who has responsibility jurisdi ion over the EPA, I've already s

letter to EPA Administrator

Jackson to let her health

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know that there are environmental

issues here, public policy issues, and also environmental justice issues.

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We look very closely at the Census tract that this particular recycling. facility would be

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And there are compelling reasons justice principles why (Applause. ) We

under environmental

this should not be built.

need to involve the larger community here. It's good that you're all here tonight. We

need to make sure that all of these questions that you have are on the record, are brought forward in the record and we'll put them in the Congressional record.

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And I can make one other prediction. There was a few years ago when people were rushing to try and get rid of what was then called Muni Light, now it's Cleveland Public

Power, and there was someone who stood in

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPOQTER~ (216) 696-2272

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front of the community and said, you what?

ow

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You may say that you're going to sell

that system, but it's never going to happen. The that. ople in this community made sure of The people in this community were the

ones that helped protect what is now Cleveland Public Power. I'm going to give the EPA a little bit of advice. If I know the people in this

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community, you're not going to shove this down their throats. Your bureaucratic process

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might be okay to satisfy some legal minutia, but it's not going to the satisfy a community that is intent on protecting the quality of (applause)

the air, the quality of the water,

their children, their schools, their neighborhoods, to Cleveland. the quality of health. (Applause. ) Thank you for your Welcome

MR. WEISS: comments.

Next will be Tony Brancatelli. apologize, followed by Brian Cummins. Thank you.

I

MR. BRANCATELLI: I am Councilman B-r-a-n-c-a-t-e-l-l-i.

Tony Brancatelli, I'm just going to put

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1 a

questions on t

record because

I know a

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number of people

a number of questions. We had

couple of the simple ones. dealt with similar type of activities previously. The GSX on

ssemer we had a huge Fortunately, We've

problem in the Sl

c Village.

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GSX was closed down a long time ago. learned to ask more questions, but just a couple things.

to dig deeper, How did

One is:

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you determine that this was the best technology? It is my understanding that the

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EPA reviewed the technologies the alternative there. technologies

and looked at that were out

What were some of the other that you looked at besides this this type

alternatives

technology when you were considering of gasification plant?

And, very specifically

with this technology, what can be burned? Very specifically, what's the items that can

be burned so that we know what will be incinerated. And then finally, can we extend the public comment period beyond the rest of the holidays and beyond January 23rd? If we can

make a formal comment request for that to be

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COUQT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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extended.

Thank

(Applause. ) Thank you very much. ns, followed by Ann

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MR. WEISS: will be Brian C Kuula. MR. CUMMI

Thank you very much.

Brian Cummins with Cleveland City Council, representing Ward 14. I'm first going to

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start my comments by saying that, in particular, the community that I represent, Cleveland as a

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although I am here representing

city and Northeast Ohio as a region, as well, but the population that I represent is, in

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fact, one of the most and certainly, one of the most diverse, inordinate communities the city and in the region. I know that In

community members that I've been working with in opposition to this project have requested

that this permit application be considered a social justice area of concern designation. And I too want to ask for an extension of time. I've submitted a letter previously, last week. It was denied but I want to make Although the permit

the comment again today.

went on record as of November 30th, flyers, in

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fact, didn't get

sted by

E

or the

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city's air control d

slon until December ople

22nd only three days before what some in this room may be participating

which is

istmas and others Hanukkah or other holidays. way. Some of the questions that I have or comments or concerns, are a bit more technical. One of them has to do with how it But nonet less, it was done that

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is that this plant is being utilized and reviewed, the total input of BTU as opposed to hours. of that. I'd also like an explanation fact, the calculations of how, in So I'd like a more clear explanation

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of the particles tons

per year in the fact that the biogenic amount is 113,000 and the non-biogenic only 8000 below the requirement source. is 92, being for a major

So, I think there's a very big

question about how these numbers were calculated. Obviously, Sangyo technology they've used the Kinsei from Japan, but the other

comment that I have is this type of plant does

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not

st in the United States and I'm very

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concerned with how, in fact, those numbers were arrived at, th only just t technical

data provided by the permit applicant. I think the other question or comment really does get to the issue of t social

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justice in what comments were made earlier In terms of allowing more emissions and more pollution. Although the permit applicant may that appears to

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have submitted an application

be lower than what is permitted within the regulations, I can speak to civic associations

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that have been -- and I see members here -who were organizing pollution Steel -65 years ago regarding the J&R

of what is now our submittal. the was a civic group that was

started 65 years ago, they fought and actually won a class action suit regarding pollution. So pollution has affected this area for over 150 years. to conform. We want to go forward. We want We

We don't want more emissions.

don't want more pollutants particularly,

in our air and, we,

are concerned with lead and

mercury and we'd like to have more information as to how this can be applied in an area which

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is

avily populated by low income minorities
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with a social justice component of t (Applause. ) MR. WEISS: Thank you.

Also, if

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you have a written statement and you'd like to submit that to me as well, I can take that, also, this evening. Next will be Ann Kuula, Allen Brown. MS. KUULA: Welcome to Congressional our Councilmen neighbors. Good evening. Dennis Kucinich and llowed by

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and all of our wonderful

Many, many parts of this city are

represented by the many, many different neighborhoods that are here. I happen to be a

member of Friends of Big Creek, Brooklyn Center Naturalists and Old Brooklyn

Development Corporation. These different organizations have

worked very hard for many, many years for clean air, for clean water. We also represent
lS

the Cleveland Metro Park Zoo that class institution. organizations Many of these

a world-

are working for trails and clean of all the wonderful

water and development

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neighborhood

r

and uni

cation of all the

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trails in the parks. clean water, wonder

And we want clean air, I neighborhoods where

bicycler and walkers and families are going out. So how can we do all of these wonderful if we are not breathing

outdoor activities clean air?

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I thank you very much.

And I'd like,

right now, for all the members of Friends of Big Creek, friends of Naturalists Corporation, Brooklyn Center

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and also Old Brooklyn Development also Councilman, Brian Cummins

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will you please stand because they represent these organizations. (Applause.) Please stand.

Thank you. Thank you, very much.

MR. WEISS:

Next will be Allen Brown, followed by Stuart Greenberg. MR. BROWN: Brown. That's A-I-I-e-n, My name is Allen B-r-o-w-n. I have

been living in this area for almost 30 years. And things were moving forward but this is really a throwback. We don't need stuff I don't care if It's an addition to

raining down from the sky. it's within your limits.

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the junk t

tIs alr

out

reo

's all

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I have to say. MR.

(Applause. ) Thank you, very much. followed by

ISS:

Next will be Stuart Greenberg, Glen Campbell. MR. GREENBERG:

My name is Stuart

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Greenberg and I'm Director of Environmental Health Watch, located at 3500 Lorain. Let's start off with some clarity. Gasification is touted as a clean technology If Cleveland

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and let's be clear; it is not.

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is going to be the first to adopt this untested technology, shouldn't there be the Of

most strict controls for monitoring? course, there can be retrofits and modifications allowable city? if monitored

emissions exceed

levels, but at what cost to the

This facility will be a significant pollution

alr

source, the sixth largest emitter of in the county at 79 tons.

particulates

Ranking may not matter for the permitting process, but that's a lot of soot and soot threatens people with lung and heart disease. At the allowable level of emissions in the

FINCUN-ML\NCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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dra la

pe

t, this

cility would be the y, 260 lbs.

st mercury source in t

a year. Again, ranking low doesn't indicate a public health concern, it certa questions. This facility ly raises to

11 be permitted

emit two and a half times the combined total of the next 24 largest mercury emitters in the county. The allowable lead air emissions of

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500 lbs. per year, will make it the fourth lead emitter in the county. The city, a large

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part of the city, is already in nonattainment for airborne lead. While health concern for both mercury and lead is particularly the accumulation year

after year, and surface water for mercury and in soil, lead. Both mercury and lead are Mercury deposition fish in all our streams the soil

potent brain poisons. already contaminates

and Lake Erie and lead contaminates around a large proportion county.

of homes in the

It may be legal, but is it right? The city should also be sensitive to

the environmental

justice concerns, that were

raised by a facility that could impose

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT QEPOQTEQ& (216) 696-2272

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disproportionate

environmental

health concerns

on the low income and minority residents of the neighborhood in which it's located.

We're also concerned by the City's permit application
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which is straining to make for

a facility fall just below the threshold more stringent federal regulations. example, 302 is projected threshold is 100. NOx
lS

For

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at 99.4 tons; the projected at 249

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tons; the threshold is 250. Given all these questions and concerns, we urge the City to withdraw the permit application. Gasification has been sold to

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the City as a clean technology which it's not and it will add to the pollutants Cleveland's already dirty air. In

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We urge the City to review a full range of waste management options and to develop a of public health gas emissions,

system that is protective

that reduces the greenhouse

that supports recycling and that realizes employment and economic development to recapture the value of and that is more admirable

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opportunities

discarded materials

consistent with Cleveland's

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sustainability goals.

Again, there are cleaner ways to
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generate electricity manage waste.

and cleaner ways to s not withdrawn to deny it, based

If the city

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the permit, we urge Ohio E

on the lack of sufficient detail provided in the application, the unproven technology

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proposed and the numerous technical concerns that would be raised. MR. WEISS: (Applause. ) Thank you very much. followed by Gloria

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Next we have Glen Campbell, Aroll. Mr. Campbell? Okay.

Next we have Gloria Aroll -- I apologize -- followed by Michelle Amoroso. MS. ARON: Aron, A-r-o-n. My name is Gloria I'm a Cleveland resident. I

would like to have, on the record, two areas of concerns, one health as stated before. know how much mercury is in our fish, yet families, especially in the poverty area, will More We

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continue to catch and to eat those fish. permitted output of mercury is going to

increase that danger and also endanger our hope in the fishing industry. I would also ask the EPA to go back and

FINCUN-MANCINI - TtIE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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look at the records of what happe

In 1980s

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5

in Cleveland with the PVC's that were leaki out of transformers and how we were

encouraged to go around checking the schools and ma ng sure all of those transformers were

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taken down and recommended

that no one would

be growing gardens where that was leaking into the ground. Now, agaln, this will endanger all the community gardens in our community where people are dependent on that for their If the PCPs cause

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livelihood and to eat.

damage, what more is going to happened to those gardens? We are asking, at least I am

and the community to say, do not agree to this permit. We need to remember Cleveland power Public

Power is our public, tax-paid-for system. this.

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We need to demand they can not do They need to withdrawn and so should

the city of Cleveland. And then we come to the cost. this system be paid for? How can

Are we going to have

an increase on our electric bill In a city that is high in poverty and is also already having to go into debt to pay for

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electricity? our ga

Are going to have an increase in for something that is

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ge collection

only going to harm our city more?

We need to

stand firm and the EPA needs to go back look at the records what already is contaminated in our ground now and not allow by an incinerator Cleveland

an increase contamination

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that will not bring anything good.

needs to fulfill, for once, to stand by a process. They started to do recycling. I'm

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still waiting for the damn garbage cans, and (applause) (inaudible) that s been a process
I

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proven in every city and recycling

tools and

garbage bins and find out if that won't work first before we endanger our lives. Thank you. MR. WEISS: (Applause. ) Thank you Ms. Aron.

Again I apologize for the confusion. Michelle Amoroso is next, followed by Andrew Dzurick. MS. AMOROSO: Amoroso, A-m-o-r-o-s-o. My name is Michelle I'm going to say that

when you think of the EPA, you think of they're there to protect you, because it's the Environmental Protection Agency. But, I'm

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER&> (216) 696-7:272

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disappointed,

ve

disappoi

ed.
E

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6

At the very least, I would like to postpone rna ng any decision until t take into account all are coming into the carcinogens all y

t

city of Cleveland,

these air pollutants.

Do evidence based

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research, things that have been tested on real people and look at it and say, okay, this lS safe for our kids, our elderly, the fragile. I'm a registered nurse. of lung cancer. I have to say. I've seen people die That's all

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It's not pretty. (Applause. )

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

MR. WEISS: much.

Thank you, very

Next will be Andrew Dzurick, followed I'm sorry.

by Jennifer Mlandineo. M-l-a-n-d-i-n-e-r-o. MR. DZURICK: Dzurick, D-z-u-r-i-c-k.

My name is Andrew I live on West 100th

Street in Cleveland about a mile from the Ridge Road trans r station. Several houses

down from me is a licensed day care center. There's young children that to go in and out every day. clean alr. They play outside. They deserve

They don't have that now, but they The Ohio EPA should

don't deserve dirty air.

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER<§)
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do everything air pollution

y can to preve

any increase

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3 4 5
6

because in Cleveland, we're for particular to allow more.

already In non attainme

matter, so it's unconscionable Thank you. (Applause. )

MR. WEISS:

Thank you very much. I apologize,

7 8 9

Next will be Jennifer Mlandineo. M-l-a-n-d-i-n-e-r-o.

Is Jennifer here? Leatrice

Next I have Leatrice Tolls. Tolls?

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The next card we have is Anthony Strickland and Mr. Strickland will be followed Joe Magrey. MR. STRICKLAND: up here. I can't believe I'm

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

I'm glad to have this opportunity

and I'm also encouraged that there have been other residents already. from the area that have spoken

I'm a layman on the issue, probably

from the ignorance of the details and the technicalities of this concern today, but I

have some matters of conscience that I want to speak on and get them out of the way. First off, it's good to see Congressman Kucinich, an icon to me. He always will be in

a positive way because you've been good to my

FINCUN-ML\NCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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ly.

I've been

aring about you since I

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5

was a kid. To the rest of t it's an honor to chance to speak. councilmen re,

here and speak, to get a It's also encouraging to see

6 7 8 9

a lot of people here

r an important issue.

And as a volunteer at the Center for Sports for kids, 8 to 12 years old, it would be nice to see a few more of you here during the rest of the year. I'm sorry. I don't want to make

10
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light of the situation, but I do feel a lot of pressure up here. As a coach, up here with the kids 8 to 12 years old, I want to tell you that the first thing that I try to instill in kids lS teamwork and to think us before me. That's

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

something I'm seeing is part of this is permit application because as I understand it there's

going to be some teamwork in the City of Cleveland between the waste and the Cleveland Public Power departments concerned, and as far as I'm

from my limited point of view,

that's always a good thing, excuse my narrow perspective for me. but that's a matter of conSClence

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER8> (216) 696-2272

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I would like to know where I could get more ln rmation to become in rmed as a t I could

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voting citizen in this area, so t be more intelligent

about the details and

facts that are involved. The other thing I want to mention, me, throughout my life leadership has been very important. a 51-year-old I'm able to look back now as for

8 9

and know that I have more It

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success in my life when I have leadership. gave me clear direction

-- one minute to go, I

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cut it off to fall short of that -- and my hope is that this application some leadership for permit is Questions

that is credible.

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16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

have come forth here tonight are the kinds that I like because if we can't depend on what we're hearing, then where can we go? How

could we trust, how could we support? So please, through the libraries or through the rec centers give us a way to get the information we need to be intelligent about this. And I hope that all of the

concerns and the calls for details and things are responded to so that we can win whatever the decision is. (Applause. )

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTER& (216) 696-2272

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ISS: Strickland.

Thank you,

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5 6

Next we have Joe Magrey, ndy Cunningham. MR. MAGREY: evening.

11

by

Thank you.

Good

My name is Joe Magrey, M-a-g-r-e y.

7 8 9

I live at 4714 Elizabeth Lane and would like to start out by asking everyone here that resident of Brooklyn to please raise your hand. (Show of hands.) Very good. It's a
lS

a

10

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12 13

very small crowd.

I'm very, very disappointed

we didn't have a better turnout for the residents of the City of Brooklyn and there could be a reason why. Tonight there's a In two weeks

14
15 16

Brooklyn City Council meeting.

there will be another Brooklyn City Council meeting. We do not have enough time to talk I'm a former Brooklyn city I chose not to

17
18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

to our residents. councilman.

My time expired.

be reelected on the last election and I didn't think I'd be on a crusade this soon after my retirement, but once Mr. Pat Tamburro came to the City of Brooklyn two weeks ago and announced this to everyone on council, I was intrigued to come here tonight.

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I do want to say that while this does the appearance of a public disappointed time. in t Ohio EPA. rum, I'm We need more

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6 7

I would be reporting back to Mayor

Balbier and everyone at Brooklyn City Council, personally. I'm very disappointed because I

will not have enough time to appear at the next Brooklyn City Council meeting, two weeks

8 9

from tonight when your deadline is fixed. Please extend this so that the residents of Parma, Brooklyn, Lakewood and Cleveland can fill this whole gym up five times as much. You need to listen to us. residents. You work for the

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15 16 17 18 19
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Please protect us because as I

look at it, the City of Brooklyn deposits over 3000 tons of garbage in that landfill a year, 3000 tons. My question is how many other cities will be bringing their trash down to this facility to compensate for the increase costs? that will be coming

21 22 23 24 25

These are the communities

from surrounding areas and coming through Brooklyn down Ridge Road, tearing up our roads, increasing traffic and causing more hazards.

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Ano

r

stion that I have is what

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3 4 5 6 7 8
9

happens when this ash, this highly concentrated disposed. hazardous material has to be

It's going to be moved and it has

to be moved properly per the EPA guidelines. This trash, this high concentration of trash,

is going to come through our neighborhoods. How are these cities going to be prepared to move this hazardous material? That hasn't tonight.

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11

been answered to my satisfaction

There was a comment made about mercury. You know what? It's not going to

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

exceed the limits. that.

Do not be comforted by Any

Do not be comforted at all.

additional mercury that we have to breath or any additional hazardous lead for that matter, (Applause. )
lS

to us.

I implore the Ohio EPA do your job to serve the public, protect the public, the deadline, extend

so that when I go back to the

City of Brooklyn in two weeks we'll have enough time to digest this and then can hold our public meetings and come to additional ones. So please, listen to these people. You

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should definitely lIed, Ii deserve it.

want to see this entire area times as much. We

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5 6

I said, (Applause. )

MR. WEISS:

Thank you, very much. who will be

Next we have Randy Cunningham, followed by Daryl Davis. MR. CUNNINGHAM:

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Randy Cunningham, I live at 3623

that's C-u-n-n-i-n-g-h-a-m. West Boulevard, proposed

very close to where this

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incinerator is going to be located.

You know we debate various issues in this type of questions We trade information, data,

study A, study B.

What we need to go and

start asking on this issue and throughout our political dialogues and bureaucracy Is it right? is a very

simple question:

Is it moral?

In the case of this proposed incinerator, let's be clear about something. pollute is a permit to poison. A permit to It is like

issuing a permit to somebody to come into your breakfast table and put a little dash of

arsenic or dash of lead onto your cereal is what it is. All these various pollutants,

dioxin, mercury, lead, there is no such thing as a safe dose of this. (Applause. )

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As members of the Nort

ast Ohio Sierra

Club and have been dealing with this issue a long time. And we recognize that this city,

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4 5 6 7 8
9

our community is something where to take a deep breath is high-risk behavior, risk behavior. is high

And now they want to just add

a little bit of poison, a little bit of toxins into our bodies. pollution. Some people call that assault.

I call that premeditated

10

That is a crime.

I do not have the right to

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15 16

go up to one you and slug you in the face, but with a permit for ventures such as this, I have the right to pollute you, to poison you. (Applause.) And this is outrageous. outrageous. you. This is Thank

That's all I have to say.

(Applause. ) MR. WEISS: Thank you, Next will be Daryl Davis

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Mr. Cunningham.

followed by Claude Cornett. MR. DAVIS: Davis, D-a-r-y-l. My name
lS

Daryl

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22 23 24 25

I live at 3830 West 44th I am the secretary I

Street in Brooklyn Center.

of Brooklyn Center Community Association.

am on the board of Friends of Wetlands and I am the current Chair of the Green party of

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTER&) (216) 696-2272

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8
9

Cu

hoga County.
I

lot of things to say about of directions. rst of all, I We

is

from a I

really resent this being called green.

need to take a look at how we use the word, sustainable. That doesn't mean that it's

going to be okay for another year, or another six months or for now. and this green.
lS

Sustainable

is forever

not sustainable.

It is not

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12 13 14 15

It does not support the return of to the soil, to a soil that

organic materials

has already been depleted beyond our ability to repair it within our own lifetimes. It does not provide an incentive for a truly, sustainable handling, system of material in our

16 17 18
19

known as waste management

consumer system.

And it has, of course, as for

it's been mentioned many times, potential greatly increased truck traffic in an area

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that is known to be a diesel hot spot, a big troublesome problem that has not been addressed. about it. traffic. We can't call this anything like an We're just measuring and talking We just can't permit more truck

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improvement. lnves go.

It going to encourage furt t

r

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nt in a direction

t we should not

When we stand in my backyard you can already breathe something that burns your throat from the Ridge Road area. who permitted still there. I don't know

that and I don't know why it's We should definitely think about

that when we consider that making this lS going to be burning something too. We have a big problem with failing schools and we blame the parents and we blame the teachers and we permit more mercury and more lead to go into children who already have a problem thinking. (Applause. ) Everything is

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11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

This is over all. connected.

This is Green policy, everything is connected. Everything affects

incidentally,

Nothing stands by itself.

everything else you do in your life. (Applause. ) MR. WEISS: much. Thank you, very

Next we have Claude Cornett, followed

by Bob Greenbaum. MR. CORNETT: I'm Claude Cornett.

FINCUN-Mi\NCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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And that's spelled, C-o-r-n-e-t-t. operated incinerators, other equipment

I've and

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3 4
5

kilns, calciners

in the early

'70s and then I sampling and

headed ambient air pollution continuous Cleveland air monitoring

for the City of Control.

6 7 8
9

Division of Air Pollution

When we had a big project with NASA to determine how much of the adverse health categories and

effects were caused by various sources in Cleveland.

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11

Since then I wrote of Energy and EPA and risk assessment

United States Department guidelines in monitoring

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20

for gasification

technologies. documents for the EPA on

I wrote the background human health risk assessment regulations for hazardous

waste incineration and

and burning hazardous industrial furnaces.

waste In boilers

And I am shocked that agency would

any environmental

regulatory

actually lssue a draft permit based on vague, generic, block diagrams installation, and proposed performance regulatory

21 22 23 24 25

unsupported

specifications, requirements incinerators.

and minimal

for small conventional The gasi cation and

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTER& (216) 696-2272

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ineration of municipal waste is much more complicat conventional and prone to incineration. red by the ilure than

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3 4 5 6 7 8
9

documents consi Cleveland Division of received in electronic clearly demonstrates

r Quality, which I form last Thursday,

that it did not even have

the details about the proposed Kinsei Sangyo Gasifier technology that are necessary to

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11

maintain the safety and likeliness of the proposed technology to comply with environmental regulations and not harm human

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

health and the environment. Informed decisions are needed before issuing a permit to install or even a draft permit. For an agency to issue a draft permit review and approval of

without the submission,

approval of pertinent detail specifications for key hardware to be installed clearly violates due diligence. purchase, installation The resulting low bid and operation of the
lS

permit is issued looking anything like what proposed would pose a major threat to public health and environment Cleveland's finances.

as well at the City of

FlNCUN-MANCINI- THE COUQT QEPORTER& (216) 696-2272

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The requirements

In a dra

permit

2
3 4 5 6
7

cus on heat input and on stack emissions. They il to address many other sources of conditions associated with the especially those

atmospheric proposed

installation,

associated with ash unloading from the pyrolysis modules, process upsets, increased truck traffic and pollution, byproduct management. Furthermore, I don't have time to go on to control

8
9

10
11

with all with my comments, so to give other people an opportunity, I'm submitting my

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14

comments in writing along with questions that didn't have a chance to present. MR. WEISS: Bob Greenbaum. Okay. (Applause. ) Next we have

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Next we have Susan Miller (Applause.) My name is Susan Miller

followed by Dane Reich. MS. MILLER: Miller.

I live in Cleveland Heights.

is spelled, M-i-l-l-e-r.

I'll cede my time to

Mr. Cornett, because he obviously has a lot of information. MR. WEISS: You can testify so on the

long as we have this information record. Please continue.

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COUQT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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MS. MILLER: could. Page 2 -- go to

I can read 3.

is or he

2
3 4 5
6 7

Given that

the actual proposal

is extremely vague,

containing no details about key aspects of the proposed technology, unloaded such as how ash lS

you already read this. Dra permit. While the draft

Page 4.

8 9

permit addresses pollution

control and

emissions through the smokestack, no other pollution controls or limits on other sources of emissions were specified in the permit application or the permit, except some water and opacity limits The

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11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20

sprays for pre-processing

that can be exceeded for short durations. emptying of solids for the gasification and process upsets are of great concern. Potential emissions

module

in a few seconds can have

adverse safety and environmental consequences. Appropriate opacity limitations allowing unlimited from the facility. short duration maXlmum are needed -- rather than capacities in puffs, etc. On Page 21 Item J and Page limit

21 22 23 24 25

37 Item 1b and 1c, the visible emissions for stacks of a six-minute average of 10%

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT QEPORTER& (216) 696-2272

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city, would allow up to 36 seconds of high emissions with 100% opacity to exit within six minute inte
s.

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3 4 5 6
7

stack

Limiting visible emissions from ash handling to 5 percent of hourly observations would also allow three minutes of very high opacities every hour, such as might occur if ash and associated gasses are not properly

8
9

controlled during the removal of ash from the proposed system. Under the circumstances, the

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11

maximum average opacity over any two-second duration should be limited to no more than 20%. Do you mind if I leave this up here for

12 13
14

other people to read? I just wanted to say that when I read about this, the thing that came into my mind was those -- those soot-faced children of Dickens' time, and these children are already among us, here in Cleveland. in the City of Cleveland. I haven't lived

15 16
17 18

19 20 21 22 23
24 25

I live in Cleveland

Heights, which is -- let me tell you something. today. We don't need it and this gentleman has just indicated that the permit isn't even It looks a lot more like Cleveland

FINCUN-MANCINI - TIre COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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based on real homework. rd, ntleman. MR. WEISS:
l

Back to t

ng

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3 4 5 6 7 8 9

(Applause. ) Next we have ne

followed by Jan Lascko. MR. REICH: Hi, my name's I'm the presi nt

Reich.

That's R-e-i-c-h.

of the Southwest Citizens Area Counsel for the last 11 years for this organization what I'm talking about. to fight air pollution. against this. Everything so I know

It was formed in 1946 We are dead-set that I've read In Last week, the Mayor

10
11

12 13

the paper the last week.

made a comment from the paper, that it's his responsibility responsibility, and City Council's to care for the health of the And that was in the

14
15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

citizens of the City.

issue of fighting trans fats in restaurants. And this week we're at a hearing, talking about putting toxic dumps in our backyard (applause) (inaudible) honestly, makes no sense. I just don't understand what they're thinking. I don't know what you people are to me, it

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thinking but we have to go back to fighting air pollution again, the people will fight you

rINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER8>
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too say.

and nail on this. (Applause. ) MR. WEISS:

That's all I

to

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5 6

Thank you, very much
11 be

Mr.

ich.

The next person to testify

Jan Lascko, followed by Chris Trepal. MS. LASCKO: everybody_ Good evening to My

7 8 9

I welcome this opportunity

address the issue that is at hand here. name is Janice Lascko, L-a-s-c-k-o. to an understanding

I've come

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11

that coming this Spring,

we're going to be starting the Bigelow garden site, which is located at West 82. Our 17th

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14

year as a community garden at the Bigelow garden site. In the past 16 years, we have improvements in the soil and

15

seen significant air-quality

16 17
18

in our neighborhood.

My second issue is, I'm a military veteran of the United States Navy and the United States Marine Corps. If you look up

19 20 21 22
23

Marine Corps station El Toro, where I was stationed at one point, and you type in the word, toxic, along with it. It is bad enough

my Federal government has poisoned me, and I have lumps to prove it. You people will not

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25

poison what air I have left to breath.

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(Applause. ) And lastly, as a voting citizen, I can understand why this is not going to vote. (Applause. ) MR. WEISS: The next to testify Thank you very much. 11 be Chris Trepal,

2
3 4
5

6 7 8
9

followed by Pat Tamburro. MS. TREPAL: Good evening. My

name is Chris Trepal for Earth Day Coalition. I'm speaking here tonight opposing both the facility and the draft permit, environmental reasons. Officials, for significant justice

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

health and environmental

Despite statements by the City even as recently as two weeks ago,

that this is a zero emissions operation, this will be a new, large, significant pollution source in our community, air affecting

both the neighborhood Lake Erie. be impacted.

here, our region and

Everyone who takes a breath will

The full-scale municipal

waste-to-

energy facility, like the one that is being proposed, the world. has not been completed anywhere in Earlier today, I saw a sign that Well, are we?

says, are we the guinea pigs.

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTEQ~ (216) 696-7:272

P88e40
1

This process kind. As such, it

lS

the only one of its iny, both

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3 4 5
6

serves sc

from the community, and the agencies involved. Gasification pollutants a municipal produces the same or. This is

as a standard incine

waste combustor, even though it's

7 8 9

not burning trash directly. A couple of issues, of course the biggest concerns are emissions. Because the

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11

detailed design of the facility is not complete, these emissions are only estimates from one side, the plant engineers. emissions have not been independently validated and there are no actual measurements Have detailed These

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20

that have been submitted. information

on air stack testing from a facility anywhere in the

similar operating

world with similar feedstock and through put been submitted? calculations Were the emissions

that have been submitted based on

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local waste, industrial waste, or solid waste? Why are the mercury emissions higher at 72 percent usage, which is what the draft permit says in the applicants proposal to run the plant at 92 percent? Where is this

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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mercury coming from and how are emissions calculated?

se

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3 4 5 6
7

you know, a drop of

mercury, about 1/70th of a teaspoon, and adding it to water, can lake. contaminate a 25 acre

This project is going to

t 260

pounds of mercury. During a phone call last week, the term "sham permit" came up. EPA defines a sham

8 9

permit as one in which emissions limits in a permit do not reflect the facility's true alr emissions potential. This means that the

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11

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23

source has a physical capacity to exceed the permit limit emissions. What does this mean

when a draft permit is issued and is expected to run at 72 percent? Will the facility of the time

operate the other three-quarters

and how is that going to happen efficiently? Finally, just a couple of quick issues on environmental justice. We are the people

who are impacted the most and we need to know what's being done, how it's being done and why it's being done. effectively This has not been to the community. has a been based

communicated

24 25

Air-quality

monitoring

on data from the 1980s.

We need a better

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTERS (216) 696-22'[2

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assessment tool and we need to In tion.

t this

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3 4 5
6

Spanish bulletins were released Okay, I'll

to the community on December 22.

finalize and send the rest in writing. MR. WEISS: Tamburro, Next we'll have Pat

followed by Gloria Ferris. Hi. My name is Pat I have some

7 8 9

MR. TAMBURRO:

Tamburro, T-a-m-b-u-r-r-o.

questions that the EPA needs to ask the City of Cleveland. Some of the City Officials are standing against the wall there. full-page advertisement Why do you have a for the C-Rec center

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11

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13 14 15 16 17 18 19

in the January 2012 issue of the Old Brooklyn News, but you did not put the date and the location of this EPA meeting for the public to comment about their incinerator in the news

and event section of that same community paper. Are you trying to hide something? Are

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22 23 24 25

you trying to sneak something by the citizens of this community? Why are you trying to movement by trying to as "green" in

co-op the environmental

pass a very toxic incinerator your advertisement Brooklyn News?

that was in the Old lie

Why do your advertisements

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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about the people who oppose to the incinerator facility? Viable alternatives have en offered

2
3 4
5 6

to the City of Cleveland but were they accept
?

One of the alternatives

is not of the

composting and recycling everything, burning it. alternatives Does public discussion scare you?

7 8 9

Why don't very many

people in this area -- In this area of Cleveland and Brooklyn why don't they know

10
11

about that the proposed incinerator project? Why don't they know about that the incinerator will add dioxin to the air? I have been going

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

door to door and nobody knows about these things. Why don't they know that the EPA permit allows 260 pounds of mercury to go into the air each year? There is no safe threshold for Are

human health when it comes to mercury. you covering something up?

20
21 22 23 24 25

If a terrorist or

the threat of 260 pounds of mercury on the residents of Cleveland, the police and the FBI would track them down and arrest them. you think you can get away with it? (Applause. ) Why do

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My point is that this is really stupid. Barry thers, the Director of Public

2
3 4 5
6

Utilities, standing against the wall there, he makes around $154,000 a year -- I'm sorry, $115,000 -- and Ivan Henderson, Commissioner a year. the

of Light and Power makes $154,000

7 8
9

This is really stupid and Mayor I'm not

Jackson was talking about merit pay.

sure; do you really merit that pay for this stupidity as you're talking about this incinerator? (Applause.)

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11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20

I fear that something more than stupidity is at play here. Someone's going to

get rich at the expense of this community's health and well-being, incinerator especially if this

is privatized.

It's going to be a Investigation, of this whole

private gain for public pain. I hope the EPA investigation scenario. (Applause. )

MR. WEISS: much.

Thank you, very

21 22 23 24 25

Next we have Gloria Ferris followed by

Gary Tohms. MS. FERRIS: F-e-r-r-i-s, Hi. Gloria Ferris, First of all, I

like the wheel.

have been resident of Cleveland now for 40

FlNCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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years, and I

been a res

nt of Brooklyn Right now, I am

2
3 4 5 6 7 8
9

Center for 30 of those years. also at a statistics, about here.

art attacks survivor to those and that's what I want to talk

Being that surVlvor, I understand how important your lungs are to your quality-oflife, and how the air is important. I know

that this is a very limited thing, but I do want to put on the record that I'm also very concerned about the diesel hot spot that the

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11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

trucks taking the trash to the incinerator would hold, even though we're not discussing that here today. are discussing Today, I understand that we We

small particulate

matter.

are at the threshold of being out of compliance already with that.

On any given day, I can go to Cleveland Weather underground and I can look up, and if like I am this

I'm having trouble breathing, evening,

I will bet you that it will tell me,

that the quality for the PMS lS 2 or 2.5 is -it's PSM, not PMS is monitored. but anyway, whatever, it

So that means that it's already

not good, and basically, what I understand

FINCUN-MANCINI- TIIE COURT QEPORTER&
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about that is, that that's the stu into our lungs very

that goes

ep and it sits there and So we really ct that we're

waits, creating chronic illness.
4

need to be concerned with the already out of compliance,

and this

6 7 8
9

incinerator will add more. So I guess what I'll say, because I did

not write much more, but I would say that as a citizen of Cleveland, this incinerator. Cleveland I strongly object to

10 11 12
13 14

And for the children of we have

and our future generations,

to deny this permit. poison our children. MR. WEISS: much.

We cannot continue to (Applause. ) Thank you, very

15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22
23 24 25

The next person to testify will be Gary

Tohms, and he will be followed by Dolores Watson. MR. TOHMS: My name is Gary Ohio.

Tohms, 5601 Denison Avenue, Cleveland, That's T-o-h-m-s.

I think that the City of

Cleveland, Ohio should be denied an EPA permit for just about any of their grand schemes, when serious injury can and will occur if things are not done properly. I can see the Ridge Road transfer

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

1

station from my apartme past f ars, me and t

windows.

Over t

animals at the zoo of rounds of gunfire which
lS

3 4 5 6 7 8 9

have listened to millions coming from the training c

a few

hundred feet east of the Ridge Road transfer station. Cleveland, Ohio, America's fastest

dying city, America's and why is that?

fastest growing slum,

We see that the City of have nothing but contempt

10
11

Cleveland officials

for the State of Ohio Supreme Court decisions, the United States Supreme Court decisions and

12 13
14 15

also contempt for United States Constitution and our Bill of Rights, not to mention dragging of the local municipal court decisions with regard to Civil Service hiring, tests and promotions. Having said what I just foot

16 17 18 19
20

said, what makes the EPA think that they can enforce any of their rules and regulations? lawsuit filed in 1995, and that lawsuit was just resolved a few days ago about Civil Service rules. With a track record of Cleveland city officials about court decisions and other rules and regulations, that they don't like, A

21 22 23 24 25

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER<.% (216) 696-2272

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they should not be given the oppo

unity to

2
3 4 5 6 7 8
9

flaunt rules where serious injury can and will occur. Is the EPA ready to fight all the all the

Clean Air Act rules and regulations

way to the United States Supreme Court; and when the EPA wins, 9 - 0, is the EPA ready to bring in the National Guard, the regular army, or deral Marshals, to enforce the EPA rules

and regulations? If you would like a little more information about me, just Google my name. My

10
11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

name is listed in the intellectual property rooms around the world. background Thank you. There is a 53 year

on me that can be found at Google. (Applause. ) Thank you. Next will

MR. WEISS:

be Dolores Watson, followed by David Ellison. MS. WATSON: Hello. My name is I am

Dolores Watson, that's W-a-t-s-o-n. proud owner of Cleveland's

first affordable

LEED plaque certified house in the Eco-Village. The Eco-Village is approximately

one-half mile radius around the West 65th and Madison Rapid Transit station, which is less than 2 miles from the proposed facility.

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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Mayor

ckson came to t was ve

ribbon cutting at my proud we had such

2
3 4
5 6

house, and

,very

a lovely energy efficie City of Cleveland,

house being built in setting the way rward

for us to lower our energy footprint. Unfortunately, no more houses have been built

7 8 9

to date, but will be, I certainly hope, soon. Now, I am a customer of Cleveland Public Power, and I know that the majority of my power, and all our power, is coming from the excess power on the grid. That means that

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11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

most of our power is being made somewhere else. Unfortunately, most of it is, in this

region, is being made either by dirty coalburning power plants, or by their dangerous nuclear power plants. is in our reglon. Building this facility is not going to take very much of that need away from us buying the excess power on the open market; and neither is it going to shut down any of those dirty coal plants or nuclear plants. We're just going to be adding to our burdens. This is not a good arrangement. We can do a We can But that's the way it

much better job with our solid waste.

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER&> (216) 696-2272

1 2 3 4
5 6

re

Ie more than we do.

We have a very Ot r wor

dismal average, below 20 percent.

cities around the nation and around t

are just -- well, they're making us look bad. The other thing is, we don't really have a serious composting program here, and if we did a better job of recycling and a better job of composting -- we can do composting in our neighborhoods, that doesn't even need to We could just

7 8
9

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11

come to a central location.

about eliminate our solid waste problems, without trucking it anywhere and without carrying it and certainly without burning it. Burning our biomass is actually wasting a very valuable resource. There are many

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

cities that have given people chickens to do composting and to eat biomass, thereby creating eggs and meat, and valuable fertilizer for gardens, without creating any emissions other than, perhaps, a bit of methane from the chickens. Anyway, I live in

20
21

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a community and I'm blessed to belong to a chicken co-op. There is absolutely no reason

that there cannot be chicken co-ops throughout northeast Ohio to take care of our biomass,

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and to help us live In a much better community. We don't need an incinerator. you. (Applause. ) MR. WEISS: Thank you, very much. Thank

2
3 4 5
6

Next we'll have David Ellison, followed by Claudette Wlasuk. MR. ELLISON: Hi. My name is David I live

7 8
9

Ellison, that's spelled E-l-l-i-s-o-n.

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11

at 3118 Carol Avenue, directly downwind from this proposed facility.

12

I have not come to every permitting meeting that you've had, or hearing that you've had. But when I do come, I find myself So

13
14 15 16 17

saying the same thing over and over again.

I have three questions that I'd like directly addressed within your written comments or your written response to our comments, and I'd like a copy of that when you're finished with it. The first one is, I'd like you all to verify that the 'P' in EPA stands for protection, and not permitting, because we're

18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25

here today talking about the draft permit that you've already written it. And obviously, we

need, as citizens, a more effective way

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER& (216) 696-2272

1 2 3 4
5

participating our lives. dra

in t

cis ions which af

ct

By the t

you've written that

permit, it

els too late, even if

maybe, in some remote way, this process might result in your denial of the permit. So the

6 7 8 9

first one is, what that 'P' actually stands for. I also have another. by the Congressman's I am encouraged to deal with It's

commitment

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11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

this process, because it's the same.

been the same for as long as I've ever come to a meeting. If an applicant fills out their and dots all their I's and

permit application,

crosses all their T's, and says that their equipment specifications meets the so

requirements

that have been established,

that equipment can meet those requirements, would you all issue the permit? second question. The third question is, if you haven't issued permits in any other case, I'd like a list of the permits that you all have actually denied based on public comments at a hearing like this. Because I've always felt that we to get our tickets That's the

are here, primarily,

fINCUN-ML\NCINI - THE COURT REPORTEQ& (216) 696-2272

1 2 3 4 5
6 7

punched, and that the process doesn't allow us an effective way to participate decisions. By the way, I'm an elected member of the central committee of the Green party of Cuyahoga County, and I think I can speak for them, that we're against this permit application application. and the approval that permit (Applause. ) Thank you, very much. in these

8
9

10 11 12 13

MR. WEISS:

If you want a copy of the Responsiveness Study, just make sure you signed up for that. MR. ELLISON: MR. WEISS: Okay. Next we'll have

14 15
16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

Claudette Wlasuk, and she will be followed by Jeff Ramsey. MS. WLASUK: My name is Claudette I'm not a member I

Wlasuk, that's W-l-a-s-u-k. of any group.

I live in the neighborhood. near Clinton and

live on West Boulevard, Jasper.

All the trucks come down Jasper.

All

the trucks come down Clinton. of Clinton and Jasper, there
lS

On the corner a playground,

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25

and that's where the City of Cleveland holds the baseball games all summer long, right down

fINCUN-MANCINI - TIlE COURT REPORTER8> (216) 696-2272

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t

street from t

s plant t

t they want to

2
3 4 5 6 7 8
9

put up. I know you can argue until you're blue in the ce over whether or not this is going but we cannot argue

to be a clean incinerator, about trucks.

If you go on the Internet, about diesel fuel, and

there is everything

that, In itself, lS very dangerous. I am also a member of the VFW's Ladies Auxiliary. are. I happen to know what dioxins

10
11

I happened to know agent orange. this is very upsetting to me, to

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

Therefore,

those fellow service people, who also know what this is all about. don't glve approval. MR. WEISS: I just asked that you (Applause. )

Thank you.

Thank you very much.

The next person to testify will be Jeff Ramsey followed by Laura McShane. MR. RAMSEY: Ramsey, R-a-m-s-e-y. Hi. My name is Jeff

I'm the Executive

Director of the Detroit Shoreway Community Development neighborhood neighborhoods Organization. organization, We're a nonprofit serving four

that have a combined population

of about 45,000 people, in the immediate

FlNCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTERc% (216) 696-2272

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3 4
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cinity of this plant. I want to reiterate the comments made by Congressman Kucinich and others. I am about

appalled by the lack of communication this project.

There were two meetings in and one

February of 2011; one for residents for businesses

7 8 9

that live from about a mile,

but there was certainly no greater effort on public engagement of the larger community. was mentioned previously, there were ads, Plain Dealer, As

10
11

full-page ads, in the Cleveland the Cleveland

12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19

Press, the Old Brooklyn News, One

and then no mention of this meeting.

meeting with a few more weeks of public comment, does not constitute community engagement. I encourage you to -- and I will request that you postpone this decision, until at least 90 days additional public comment and community meetings, engagement, and true community this in mailings to

20 21
22 23 24 25

and publicize

people in their homes and set up meetings that people can attend. The community engagement Thank you.

here has been dreadful. (Applause. )

flNCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER<£> (216) 696-2272

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MR. Next we'll Just

ISS:

Thank you very much. ra McShane, followed by

2
3 4 5
6

Smith. MS. Mc Hi. Good evening.

My name is Laura McShane.

I'm speaking for

myself and Chris Pekoc, that's M-c-S-h-a-n-e and P-e-k-o-c. I have written comments, which I will submit. For the record, please enter our facility

7 8 9

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11

formal opposition to the proposed

permit, and note that we are vehemently opposed to any permit issued that would allow the City of Cleveland to proceed with construction of this facility. The following

12 13 14
15 16

data taken from the Ohio EPA's Permit Strategy Form suffices to explain our opposition. I have to interpret it. The Cleveland Public Power Ridge Road gasifier project has a potential to emit matter, And

17
18 19

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22

108.96 tons per year of particulate

108.46 tons per year of sulfur dioxide, 271.74 tons per year of nitric oxide and nitrogen dioxide, monoxide, 121.6 tons per year of carbon 36.80 tons per year of volatile 10.16 tons per year of

23 24
25

organic chemicals,

fINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTER~
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1

sulfuric acid, 0.35 tons per 10.28 tons pollutants,

ar of lead, and

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3 4
5

r year of total hazardous air that risk includes about 100 some of

chemicals which you might recognize,

them include dioxins, radio nuclides styrene, etcetera, etcetera. It should be noted that Cuyahoga County
lS

6 7 8 9

currently

in non-attainment

for particulate for

matter over 2.5 and partial non-attainment lead. We are both long-standing,

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11

tax-paying

12
13

residents who live and work in the area to be directly impacted by this proposed facility.

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15 16 17

I have been to several of these events and it's really important that you just send something directly to David Hearne at the Cleveland Division of Air Pollution Quality at Ohio 44114,

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75 Erieview Plaza, Cleveland,

whether you're opposed, or encourage this facility, just send something in written form,

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yes or no, so that there is a written documentation with your name and your address, That's what you need oppose.

so people have a record.

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25

to do with these things; vehemently So that's it. (Applause. )

FINCUN-MANCINI - TfIE COURT REPOQTER~ (216) 696-7:272

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MR. WEISS:

Thank you.

Next we

have Justine Smith, followed
3 4 5 6
7

s Stuart.

MS. SMI Smi th. I1

My name is Justine on the west side of Cleveland. I used to live

I am against the incinerator. In Detroit, Michigan.

I suggest that you look at what happened with the incinerator Michigan. alternative in Detroit,

8
9

It was rushed through as an to the landfill, and once it was There was a

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11

there, it was hard to get rid of. contract.

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14 15

Every time the citizens and many of

the council members, want to get rid of it, they come up against this contract. It's more

costly to get rid of it than to keep it. Plus, they're burning garbage from other cities. In order to meet the contract they have to burn a certain amount (Applause) So like anything

16 17
18

guidelines, of garbage.

19 20 21 22 23

else, it's a lot harder to get out of once you get it. So I would request a six-month wait

on this, to really study it, and have time for public comment We've already talked about all of the health hazards, and I agree with all of

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25

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER8> (216) 696-2272

PB8e
those. We don't need more alr pollution. incinerator, I and

live about 3 miles from t
3 4 5 6
7

if you can imagine if you had a bonfire in your backyard of plastic a rubber and all

the putrid smells, it's not just one bad scent, it's a mix of horrible smells. you get closer to the incinerator it's nauseating. You can hardly stand it. You And as

8
9

feel like you're in the seventh level of hell. This is what it's like with an incinerator. But I suggest you look it up. cities have done. We can do more recycling here, if people are educated and it's done neighborhood by neighborhood successful I think we could have a (Applause). See what other

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23

recycling program.

MR. WEISS:

Thank you very much.
r

Next we will have James Stua Arlin J. Wallace. MR. STUART: the sustainability

followed by

I'm a consultant

in

and green field and I look and I have and I

at combined technologies, considerable background

in incinerators

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25

can tell you, absolutely,

that this would

probably be the worst possible way to do

FINCUN-MANCINI - THECOURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

Pt\ije 60
1

someth

with the garbage; and there are many

2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

examples around the country with much better applications, recycled like Disney rId where 100 is

(applause) by anaerobic digestion There's

which is composting, more or less.

other examples where there's very large percentages disposed of without incineration.

And the other problem I have is, Cleveland Public Power, over the last five and the

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

years -- one of the things that I do, EPA gave them all kinds of grief. clean burn technology,

There's

called microturbine. They and

There are two or three manufacturers. way, way, way exceed, even California Japanese specifications.

And yet, the EPA

gave them almost a dozen years of trouble, trying to prevent them from getting licensing, when they have no plumes, and yet here we're going in saying, okay, they're one point under on all these specs, so we'll give them a permit. Now they passed all the certification, they had running models. They didn't ever

have an experiment where they didn't have a running functional model. This has never been

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER<§) (216) 696-2272

PeJ8e 61
1

proved.

It's never been built and it's never

2 3
4 5
6

been done. The other problem I have is, that there

is a situation here were you wait from December of last year until November, repeated

that numerous times tonight, for them to submit figures on this equipment, never even been tested. that the strategies that has

7 8 9

There's also the fact

that are being used that

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11

are forcing this down our throats, are not really acceptable to any of the citizens who

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know about it, and you tried to keep it a secret from everybody. I have a problem with

it a little bit, and I think that everybody here should go out and talk to their neighborhoods, and have everybody write or

send a letter to Obama and to all the Congressmen, not just send this to Dennis and on the hill

the others, but every congressman

and the senators and make sure that they name the EPA people who have done this to us. Thank you. (Applause. ) Thank you, very much. Arlin J. Wallace? Next

MR. WEISS: Mr. Arlin J. Wallace.

we have Rev. Dr. Elaine McCoy.

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. DR. McCOY:

I've already spo

n,

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3 4
5

but otherwise, one thing for the record MR. WEISS: say your name. REV. DR. McCOY: thank you. I've already spoken, I would Please come up and

6 7 8
9

Elaine McCoy, M-c-C-o-y.

just like for an empirical result, because I think the only one we're going to get tonight. Can everybody here who would like

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11

the period extended 60 days, raise their hand? (Show of hands) 90 days? For the record -- for the record, could you just estimate -- do it again, keep your hands up. For the record, could you estimate,

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14 15

would you say it's fair to say about 95 percent of the people here would like these hearings extended? I would submit that 95

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17 18

percent of the people here would like these hearings extended, so please have that in your records. Thank you. (Applause. ) Thank you. Next we

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MR. WEISS:

have John Jenkins, followed by Eric O'Callaghan. MR. JENKINS: J-e-n-k-i-n-s. John Jenkins,

I'm a member of Old Brooklyn

FINCUN-MANCINI - TIlE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

1

Development

Corporation

rd of

rectors

2
3 4
5 6

Chairman of the Green Space Committee. Recently, I waste gasification came aware of a report on impacts on the environme r

and public health, and it's a technical published

by the Blue Ridge Environmental It's about 19 pages long and

7 8
9

Defense League.

I know I don't have the time, so I'm going to take a portion of it that I think really catches the whole essence of the report. What

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11

I'm asking is that the Ohio EPA look at this report and either agree with it, or rebut it, or what. I think there
lS

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

a lot of

information of trouble.

in here that could save us a lot

One of the conclusions with is, gasification same environmental

they come up share the

facilities

problems associated with There is no

mass burning incinerators. difference

between what we had and what we're

going to get; and that includes, air pollution; water pollution; disposal of ash

and other by-products;

large amounts of water

for cooling purposes; health, safety and odor impacts; disincentives for waste reduction;

fINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTERS (216) 696-71272

Paoe 64
1

diversion recycling.

of waste from composting and

2
3 4 5 6
7

The gas produced

om heating

solid waste contains hazardous organic compounds, but the technology to remove them does not exist, at least commercially, now. The ash remains, remaining after is 8 to 15 percent of the right

8
9

gasification

original volume; and it's toxic and it presents special problems, because of the

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

acidic, or low pH, conditions in landfills. Leaching of toxic metals, cadmium, lead, and mercury, occur more rapidly at low pH, groundwater.

resulting in contaminated

The false promise offered by gasification is that one single solution can But muni

solve all waste disposal problems.

solid waste, household hazardous waste, commercial and industrial wastes, and so-called special wastes cannot be dumped In a hopper and gassed out of existence. Programs

based on zero waste are the best means to ensure that the environment are protected. In closing, I'd like to say, what is and public health

fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTERC§) (216) 696-2272

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the benefits to

City of Cleveland, rba

and lS es

2
3 4 5 6
7

Public Power going to reduced our or electric rates? gasification

And as soon as the

plant opens, our home values will alr pollution, and Who I

decline due to additional its associated

(applause) health hazards.

will reimburse us for all of these costs? just can't understand

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19

the rationale that has Thank you.

gone into this whole process. MR. WEISS:

Sir, would you like

to submit that report as part of your testimony tonight? Thank you. O'Callaghan, Next we have Eric and I'm I

followed by Virginia,

having a hard time making this out, Aveni. apologize. MR. O'CALLAGHAN: O'Callaghan, My name's Eric

that's O-'--a-I-I-a-g-h-a-n.

I'm

20 years old and not as experienced the people here.

as some of

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21

First of all, I would like to thank Mr. Ivan Henderson for being here today. you show of compassion. Thank you, Slr.

22 23
24

I really do appreciate It's very nice of you.

25

I had chance to watch their faces and

FINCUN-MANCINI -

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t

lr reactions to the testimony from the As is normal bus ess in Narnia,

2
3 4 5
6

people here.

they were very stone-faced most of the t They did roll their eyes at the mention of Charles Dickens, which is interesting the due to

ct that a lot of what the people had to

7 8 9

say is in character with people like this, that are profiting off of, you know, this --

the problems of people in these communities. In fact, they're logical. interesting, It's lS very

10
11

and as many people know -- I'm than I

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

sure you know, you're more experienced

-- characters do have a kernel of truth that's expounded upon or extrapolated upon. So I

thought that was interesting, myself from my perspective. I did want to say that.

I also do have a quick little thing here on a piece of paper. When we were

talking about permit opacity, the part of the pe t that is related directly to the It

opacity, which I thought was interesting. is obviously -- it can be assumed, I think, that businessmen

would not apply for a permit I'm

for something that they did not need.

just going to go forth from there, assuming

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

1

that. The
t

2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9

her day, Mr. Henderson

stat

on

news, News ChannelS,

it was part of some

information on the Ohio Citizens Action, you may be familiar with what they do. ey do a

lot of work with these kinds of situations. d you see on the news that the emissions would not be visible from this incinerator, which is interesting because they applied for the opacity permit. So, I would like to know,

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

that if that's not true, then what is true about this incinerator? I have. This is the question

Maybe some of you may have that

question as well. I also do want to know one more thing, that is included in my time, as well. technology doesn't exist, if this is completely new technology, figures acquired. how were these If the

I don't have a Power Point, for this,

I apologize for not being prepared

but I'd really like to know how you came up with those figures and, directly, apply to this situation. how it would

I'd really

appreciate that be reflected in any kind of report you release. Also, if you could

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

PB8e
1

translate that into Spanish, because this is area is very high percent Spanish (Applause. ) MR. ISS: Thank you, very much. aking.

2
3 4 5
6

The last card I have right now is Aveni. MS. AVENI: I appreciate Thank you, very much.

7 8 9

your being here.

I think I'll say a few words to the audience, in your defense, which I've done for a long time and that is that the Agency, by law, and the Congressman knows it, must hold a

10
11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

hearing on permits that have been submitted to it, so they're doing their public job right now. However, I think that if you want to

seem some real changes so that there is better input on the extended time, hearing time, for which people can submit comments, perhaps there needs to be a change in both state and federal law. Secondly, I think we need to remember the reason for this meeting, the application from Cleveland Public Power deals, probably,

with their concern about keeping fuel costs low. The city needs to look at its

FINCUN-MANONI - THE COURT REPORTER&) (216) 696-2272

1

responsibility greater respons waste.

rdware around and it has the ility first, in dealing with

2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9

As a member of the Solid Waste District advisory committee, I'm especially concerned

that they complete the City's work on recycling and that they can turn if they want, if they are concerned about energy, they can request Cleveland Public Power to do more efficient and sustainable, ways of delivering energy. The Mayor has completed the sustainability meetings and projects with various sustainable

10
11

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

people around the whole community over the last two years but this doesn't reflect that in anyway. So, I believe that the pressure

needs to go back, not just to the EPA to look seriously -- and this is for the district, as

well -- whether waste treatment that we have are comparable, the efficiency of the permit

and whether they can be relied upon to do the due diligence necessary. But where this is

all starting is with the city and its lack of coordination between an energy program and first of

really serious energy conservation,

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

1

all, new technology,

sustainable

technology Other

2
3 4 5
6

and doing their job and recycli

cities within the Solid Waste District are doing a much better job. My city, for

example, Lyndhurst -- I'm not a resident of Cleveland but I am concerned about the whole area because we do want regionally almost 50 percent recyclables -- we get

7 8 9

and Cleveland It's

is, I think, around 10 or 11 percent. very low. They can extend that.

10
11

They can And that's Thank you.

then do the job in both areas.

12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

what we really need at this point. (Applause. ) MR. WEISS:

Thank you everybody. Is there

I don't have any more blue cards.

anybody else out there who would like to testify this evening? Please state your name and spell it for the record. MS. VENTURA: that's R-o-w-e-n-a, Hi, Rowena Ventura, Ventura, V-e-n-t-u-r-a.

I'd like to direct this question to Christopher Weiss. I've been sitting watching

the panel and I've watched the expression of everybody in this audience, and I think that

FINCUN-MANCINI- THE COURT REPORTER& (216) 696-7:272

PB8e 71
1

you owe us all an apology.

You're falling I don't

2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9

asleep at this table -- this hearing. appreciate

that, and I'm sure in the children

of Cleveland would not appreciate that when we are diagnosed with all the illnesses that are about to come down on us. MR. WEISS: (Applause.) Thank you very much.

Is there anybody else that would like to provide testimony this evening?

10
11 12

Please state your name and spell it for the record. MS. AYOWARD: Ayoward, A-y-o-w-a-r-d. things. movement My name is Kate Just a couple of

13
14 15

First of, I would like to support the to further the comment period to

16 17 18
19

extend that so to give people a chance to speak out on this, as well as for everything that everyone else has said about the amount of air pollution in Cleveland, to add more. However, one thing that has not been brought up by you, and I would like to address this to the representatives Cleveland, of the City of $180 that's already being released

20
21

and the fact that we do not need

22
23 24 25

is the estimated cost.

FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT QEPORTER<.%
(216) 696-?JXl2

1 2 3 4 5 6
7

million right now; it could go to $300 million. ludicrous. For what; for 15 megawatts? I cannot That's

(applause) (inaudible)

rst Energy is releasing a fifth of the estimated mercury produced by this incinerator. megawatts. Their mass capacity, 256 How does that happen? How does

8
9

that work out? Seriously, you guys. Come on, possibly We can do so

10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

$300 million for 15 megawatts? much better than that. MR. WEISS:

(Applause. ) All right. Is there

anybody else that would like to provide testimony tonight? Sir, you testified. Would

anybody else like to provide testimony this evening? Okay. very much. With that, I want to thank you I know that everybody has some I think we had a

strong feelings about this. good meeting.

I want to thank you very much

for your cooperation. If there are no further requests to present testimony, we will end the hearing. Please remember that written comments will be accepted through the close of business on

fINCUN-MANCINI - TliE COURT REPORTER8> (216) 696-2272

1

Monday,

January 23, 2012.

And again, these Cleveland oor, 75 Ohio,

2
3 4 5
6

can be sent to David Hearne, Division of Erieview 44114. r Quality,

Second

Plaza, Suite 200, Cleveland, And again, the public

comment period

ends on January 23. Thanks again for coming out.
lS

7 8 9

The time

8:27 and this meeting

is concluded.

Thanks. (Meeting concluded at 8:27 p.m.)

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FINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPOQTEQ~ (216) 696-2272

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State of Ohio, County of Cuyahoga.

SS:

C E R T I F I CAT

E had

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This certifies that the foregoing lS a true and correct transcript of the proceedings before the State of Ohio, Environmental Protection Agency, at the Estabrook Recreation Center, 4125 Fulton Road, Cleveland, Ohio 44144, on Monday, January 9, 2012, commenclng at 6:00 p.m. In Re: Draft Permit to Install Cleveland Public Power Waste Gasification Facility Cleveland, Ohio

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FINCUN-MANCINI COURT REPORTERS 1801 East Ninth Street Suite 1720 Cleveland, Ohio 44114 (216) 696-2272 (216) 696-2275 FAX

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fINCUN-MANCINI - THE COURT REPORTER~ (216) 696-2272

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