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IN THE UNITED STATES DISTRICT COURT FOR THE WESTERN DISTRICT OF OKLAHOMA

UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, Plaintiff,

6 7

vs. LARRY DOUGLAS FRIESEN,

8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 Defendant.

) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) ) )

Case No. CR-08-41-L

TRANSCRIPT OF JURY TRIAL VOLUME V HAD ON SEPTEMBER 23, 2008 BEFORE THE HONORABLE TIM LEONARD, U.S. DISTRICT JUDGE, PRESIDING

A P P E A R A N C E S 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Mr. Edward Kumiega, U.S. Attorney's Office, 210 West Park Avenue, Suite 400, Oklahoma City, OK 73102, appearing for the United States of America Mr. Mack Martin and Ms. Kendall Sykes, Martin Law Office, 125 Park Avenue, Fifth Floor, Oklahoma City, OK 73102, appearing on behalf of the defendant

752 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 SARAH WALBBRIDGE Direct Examination ........................872 Cross-Examination .........................893 Redirect Examination ......................912 DONALD LADD Direct Examination ........................914 Cross-Examination .........................923 Redirect Examination ......................933 Recross-Examination .......................945 DELBERT KNOPP Direct Examination ........................948 Cross-Examination .........................952 Redirect Examination ......................958 Recross-Examination ......................959 Redirect Examination ......................960 ANNETTE JOHNSON Direct Examination ........................821 Cross-Examination .........................826 Redirect Examination ......................828 JAMES BUGG Direct Examination ........................829 Cross-Examination .........................857 Redirect Examination ......................867 SARAH WALBRIDGE (Daubert) Direct Examination ........................757 Cross-Examination .........................778 Continued Cross-Examination ...............849 JOSEPH NEWELL Direct Examination ........................793 Cross-Examination .........................799 Redirect Examination ......................801 Recross-Examination .......................801 CATHERINE LONG Direct Examination ........................802 Cross-Examination .........................811 Redirect Examination ......................818 WITNESS I N D E X PAGE

753 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 TERRI DENNIS Direct Examination ........................970 Cross-Examination .........................983 Redirect Examination ......................987 Recross-Examination .......................990 Redirect Examination ......................991 Recross-Examination .......................992

754 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 (The following was had in open court on September 23rd, 2008, without the presence of the jury. For prior

transcription, see Volumes I through IV of this transcript.) THE COURT: This is Case No. CR-2008-41-L, United Parties ready

States of America versus Larry Douglas Friesen.

to proceed on the Daubert hearing as it relates to the Government's expert Sarah Walbridge? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. Good morning, your Honor. The

United States is ready. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Defendant is ready, your Honor. You may proceed. Since there is a motion filed in this

MR. KUMIEGA:

case, is there any particular -- I'm not exactly sure what parameters the Court would like to hear, but I'm going to try my best. THE COURT: Walbridge? MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, the Daubert case says before Mr. Martin, what is the objection to Ms.

the Court hears any type of scientific evidence he has to make basically certain findings, that, number one, there's scientific knowledge to establish that there is some type of reliability to the opinion that she is to give; further, that the individual that is going to testify about that, i.e., in this case, Ms. walbridge, has the specific knowledge herself, and her testimony will assist the trier of the fact. The

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

755 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 government has burden at a Daubert hearing to establish that the methodology can be tested to show, you know, the error rates, the falsity versus the -- false positives and things like that. Further, that there is some type of peer review,

that the testimony that she gives has been subject to peer review of other people that are in the field that are knowledgeable, the rateS of error as to whether or not there are certain rates of error. And then I think finally, your

Honor, that based upon that, you have to make a determination as to whether or not as a gate-keeping function under Kumo Tire v. Carmichael that this would be ultimately beneficial to the jury in reaching the issues of the case. THE COURT: I'm aware of what the Court needs to find,

but let me ask, we've had other experts in which there has been no request for a Daubert hearing. What specifically are you

challenging the criteria as it relates to this particular witness? MR. MARTIN: She's going to testify, your Honor, from

what I understand from the report that I was provided about testing relating to the paint coating of this firearm, whether or not it has more than one coating, whether or not the -basically, whether or not there is presence of more than one paint coat on there, and also a little bit of testimony about the presence of paint coats within the actual serial numbers, that E683, your Honor. And I don't know if there's scientific

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

756 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 knowledge or skills available out there to make the kind of conclusion that she's drawn in this case. It's my

understanding she's going to testify there's a single coat of paint on this gun, and I think she used -- I think her testimony will also relate to certain tests that she made relating to that to make that determination, and whether or not, whether or not an abrasive, and by that it can be either a solvent, certain solvents were used to remove paint off this gun to make those serial numbers more visible, your Honor. THE COURT: So are you questioning both her

qualifications and the experiments that she did? MR. MARTIN: I have her resume, your Honor, but I

don't know that her resume, and we'll find that out, specifically relate to the type of testimony she's going to give. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Okay. The only other concern I have, your

Honor, her tests in this case, and this is more in limine than it is relating to the hearing outside the presence of the jury, her tests are based upon supposed statements that my client have made that have not been offered into evidence and I don't think will be offered into evidence that he removed paint from this gun. And I'm concerned about her attributing any

statements to my client. THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega, you may present your

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. witnesses so the Court can make the proper determinations. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, your Honor. The United States

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would call Sarah Walbridge. (Witness sworn) SARAH WALBRIDGE, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

Ma'am, would you introduce yourself to the judge, please? Yes. My name is Sarah, S-A-R-A-H, Walbridge,

w-A-L-B-R-I-D-G-E. Q. A. And, ma'am, how are you currently employed? I'm a forensic chemist for the Bureau of Alcohol,

Tobacco, Firearms & Explosives, forensic science laboratory in Walnut Creek, California. Q. A. And what's the nature of your work, please? My specialty is trace evidence. Examples of trace

evidence include hairs, fibers, paint, and any other material that doesn't really fit into another section of our laboratory. Q. And what other the sections of the laboratory are in your

office, please? A. We have an arson section, an explosives section, a latent

print section, and a firearms and toolmark section. Q. And prior to that what, was your work experience, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

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I worked for a company called Microtrace as a research

microscopist dealing with trace evidence as well. Q. A. And what is your formal educational background, please? I have a bachelor in chemistry from Elby College in Elby,

Michigan, and a master in forensic science from Michigan State University. Q. Have you received any specialized training and/or

experience in your scientific field? A. I've received in-service training with ATF from qualified I've also taken many courses put on by forensic

examiners.

organizations or colleges such as forensic examination of paint, I've taken microscopy courses from the McCrone Research Institute, to name a few. Q. A. And are you a member of any professional organizations? I'm a member of the American Academy of Forensic

Sciences, I'm also a member of the Midwestern Association of Forensic Scientists, as well as the California Association of Criminalists. Q. A. And do you have any individual certifications, please? Yes. I'm a fellow, trace analyst hairs and fibers fellow

with the American Board of Criminalists. Q. A. And what does that mean? That means I'm certified to continue -- I passed an exam,

and then I work for a laboratory doing full-time case work in my specialty, and to keep my certification I need to pass B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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proficiency tests, and my laboratory did do proficiency tests yearly. Q. Now, you have prepared a report regarding certain

analysis that you have for forensic testimony today; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And if you can give the Court the conclusions before we

launch into the Daubert criteria of what you found during your testing procedures, please. A. Okay. I was asked to look at the impressed markings on

the receiver of the firearm, which is here, which was submitted as Exhibit 1 to our laboratory. During my examination of the

markings, the E683, those were the markings in question, I found that this was a single layer of black paint surrounding those markings, and that that black paint was lodged into the impressed markings indicating that paint was present on the receiver prior to this stamping process. I sampled some of the

paint within the impression as well as some of the paint adjacent to the impression and found that they shared the same elemental composition and chemical composition, which further indicated that that paint was placed on the receiver prior to the stamping process. Q. Can you tell the Court about your analysis regarding some

abrasive solutions, and I think you marked three types of solutions that you examined during the course of your forensic B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 technique? A.

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A second question submitted from the agent was whether

some sort of solution or solvent was used around those impressed markings. I didn't find any indication that a I did some testing on another It wasn't

solution or solvent was used.

area of the firearm using some common solutions.

known what solution possibly was used, so I used ethyl alcohol and acetone, because they are readily available to the public, and also Fry's Reagent, which is a solution used by firearms examiners to restore serial numbers. And I did find that the

paint was soluble in acetone, which is typical for paint because acetone is a component of paint. And it kind of gave

the impression of it removed all the paint down to the metal, kind of gave an impression of coloring outside of the lines. There was nothing to indicate that that occurred over by the E683 markings. Q. Now, you've generated reports regarding the analysis that

you just articulated to the Court; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And all these reports have been basically peer reviewed;

is that right? A. Our laboratory requires that 100 percent of our case work So this

is technically reviewed by another qualified examiner.

case has been technically reviewed, as well as administratively reviewed. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Let me ask you this, ma'am:

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The techniques that you used

to make these findings, are they commonly accepted in your field of trace evidence? A. Q. Yes. All right. First of all, one of the Daubert criteria for

forensic comparative analysis is -- well first of all, before I launch any further, you did a comparative analysis in this investigation; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. I was comparing material. Is that what comparative analysis is,

All right.

comparing materials? A. Comparing -- looking for similarities and differences, we

do it not only in forensics but in many fields, comparative anatomy. We do it as individuals when our headlight breaks in

our car, we take it to Home Depot, we compare it to the other light bulbs to figure out which one we need to purchase. scientific methodology. It's

It's been around for thousands of

years in comparing things. Q. A. And has this been tested or can it be tested? Yeah. I think it's been talked about at meetings, it's

been published in journals and books in many fields, not only forensics, but any science, it's been done in laboratories across the U.S. Q. A. This is comparative analysis? Comparative analysis, comparing two things. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

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Has this technique, comparative analysis, comparing two

things, has this been peer-reviewed, please? A. For forensics, I know it has. The Journal of Forensics

Science is a peer-reviewed publication that's devoted to publishing scientific observations, scholarly inquiries in all the fields of forensic. So, you know, my specialty is trace

evidence, but comparisons go on in firearms and toolmarks, if we're just specifically talking about forensics. Q. Specifically in the case that you're trying to present to

the Court today, was your conclusions and your methodology on how you reached those conclusions, were they peer-reviewed, please? A. Q. Yes, they are peer-reviewed. By who and was it independent? Tell the Court about that

procedure, please. A. The peer reviewer for this case was another qualified Do you

examiner whose specialty is trace evidence as well. need her name? Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Lee Brun-Conti. Would you spell that? L-E-E, Brun is B-R-U-N hyphen C-O-N-T-I.

Are there standards that control the method or theory and

are there error rates, please? A. Our laboratory has standards and methods for examining B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 forensic evidence. We also have methods and procedures for

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analyzing evidence and they are based on techniques that historically have been proven to be reliable and accurate in our field for that evidence. rate for those procedures. Q. Can you explain -- can you give us in detail why there's If you can illucidate that for the And there really isn't any error

no error rate, please? Court, please. A.

Well, all of our techniques, forensic techniques, whether

it be instrumentation, how to handle evidence, how to log evidence, that's all been done in labs for years and proven to be accurate and reliable. We're also an accredited laboratory.

We're accredited by the American Society of Crime Lab Directors, the acronym is ASCLD Lab, A-S-C-L-D Lab. Q. And what does that mean in the field of comparative

analysis or for forensic work, please? A. Well, for a forensic laboratory to be accredited, ASCLD

sets out criteria that each laboratory, requirements that each lab have to do. tested. One of the requirements is we're proficiency

Other requirement is all of our casework is Our laboratory takes it a step

administratively reviewed.

further and has 100 percent of our casework peer-reviewed as well. We also have to have methods and procedures for

chemicals that you use, and you have to have quality assurance and quality program. And our laboratory is reviewed every five

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. years from ASCLD Lab to keep our certification. Q. Now, the techniques that you use, are they generally

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accepted in the community, forensic community? A. Comparative analysis has been around for years. You

know, the first known scientist doing comparative analysis was Edmond Picard in World War I. He was looking at things. I

mean, fiction-wise, Sherlock Holmes was the first, and Edmond Picard was actually a criminalist doing comparative analysis to answer questions related to criminal activity. MR. KUMIEGA: with her resume? THE COURT: Yes. Ma'am, what I have here is Government's Is this your Your Honor, may I approach the witness

(By Mr. Kumiega)

Exhibit 1 for purposes of this Daubert hearing. resume? A. Yes, it is. MR. KUMIEGA:

Your Honor, the United States would move

Government's Exhibit 1 for the limited purpose of this hearing. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: No objection. Will be admitted. Your Honor, you've heard now the Would you like to hear the

background, comparative analysis.

specifics on how she reached conclusions that are -THE COURT: Yes. Ma'am, the first conclusion that you

(By Mr. Kumiega)

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 reach was there is one layer of paint on the firearm.

765 Can you

tell the Court how you made that conclusion and finding, please, and what techniques you used? A. I examined the firearm under a microscope, so I got a

detailed view of this suspected markings at a high magnification. So I was able to see that there was only a

single layer of paint present. Q. All right. And anything interesting about the microscope

you used or any technique regarding your peer review of that finding? A. Q. A. Of the microscope? Yes. Is it a microscope you use every day?

It's a microscope that's used every day. It's called a It's just a series of lenses that helps

stereo microscope.

magnify the object so you can see the fine detail. Q. All right. So is this a subjective conclusion or

objective conclusion that the paint layer, one paint layer was consistent? A. Q. A. Q. That's subjective. Okay. And was that peer-reviewed?

That was. All right. You also made the conclusion that there was

paint before the serial number was stamped on the firearm; is that correct? A. That's correct. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

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Can you tell the Court how you made that determination,

please? A. Under the microscope I could see that the paint was So that indicated to me that the

lodged within the impression.

paint must have been there before the stamping process occurred. What I also did was analyze some of the paint that

was wedged within the impression and compared it to the paint adjacent to that, immediately adjacent to the impression, and they share the same chemical properties and elemental properties. So that further indicated to me that that paint

was there prior to the stamping process. Q. And what techniques did you use to determine that,

please? A. The chemical properties were determined by using an

instrument that's called a Fourier Transform Infrared Spectrometer, which I'll spell. Fourier is F-O-U-R-I-E-R,

Transform, T-R-A-N-S-F-O-R-M, Infrared, I-N-F-R-A-R-E-D, Spectrometry is S-P-E-C-T-R-O-M-E-T-R-Y. Q. And is this a device or instrument that's commonly used

throughout forensic labs throughout the world? A. This instrument is commonly used in not only forensics

labs but all forensic labs to look at the chemical composition of both organic and inorganic material. Q. And reliable, if you can give the groundwork on how this

thing works and the theory behind it, please. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Sure. Essentially, we're talking infrared light, and

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transmitting that under our sample.

We're measuring how much And that absorbence

of that light is absorbed by our sample.

is characteristic of the chemical makeup of the sample. Q. A. This has been around for how long? The infrared spectrometry has been around for quite a Fourier Transform means that the computer applies a

while.

mathematical model to get the full -- let's see -- the mathematical model just helps with fully getting, collecting all of the data. And I know that Fourier Transfer Infrared

Spectrometry has been around at least 20 years. Q. All right. You also performed certain experiments to

determine whether or not the firearm was stamped after it was painted; is that correct? A. Q. A. I did. Can you tell the Court about that, please? Yes. During my examination under the microscope I could

see that the paint seemed to have been physically altered by the force of the stamping process. So I wanted to see what

that would look like, you know, wanted to prove what I was seeing was really true. So what I did was I took a piece of

metal plate from our lab, and the firearms examiner gave me some die stamps because he had concluded that die stamps were used on the firearm. So I took a round piece of metal and just On one side of it I

put a piece of tape down the middle of it.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 stamped some numbers and letters and took some black spray paint and sprayed over it.

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On the other side of the metal I

spray-painted the metal first, let the paint dry, and then stamped some numbers and letters into it, just to see, you know, I had felt that the paint was there first, and that the force of the stamp had caused that paint to be wedged into the impression. So essentially what I was trying to do was see

what that would look like on the little experiment that I did, and I looked at that metal plate under the microscope and could see that spray-painting second, stamping first this, then spray-painting had a very smooth, stamps were completely covered by the black paint, didn't look anything like the exhibit. The other side, where I had painted the metal plate

first and then stamped it, that looked very similar to the exhibit. The paint was wedged into the impression from the

force of the stamping process. Q. All right. You also did an experiment with three

chemicals, you said a Fry's Reagent and some type of solvent; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. Can you tell the Court about that and was that also

peer-reviewed like your -- let me back up. Was your metal stamping technique, the paint then the stamp, and then the stamp and paint, was that also peer-reviewed and further refined by your supervisors? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Everything that I did was peer-reviewed.

769 It also all was

documented in my case notes, and my entire case notes, all the data that was generated from each of the instruments that I used, all the photographs that I took, as well as my laboratory report was peer-reviewed by another qualified examiner. Q. Okay. Tell the Court with your abrasives, how you used

that, please. A. They were actually solvents. An abrasive seems to me

like a scouring pad or something, so I was really looking at whether solutions or solvents were used. Ethyl alcohol and I didn't

acetone, I mean, acetone is nail polish remover.

really have an indication from the agent what solvent was used by the defendant, but the defendant had claimed that the solvent was used. So I figured ethyl alcohol and acetone,

readily available to the public, I would use those, and then Fry's Reagent being a solution used to restore serial numbers, that would be another good choice on another aspect of the firearm. test. Away from the impressed markings, I did a solubility

Solubility tests are basically looking to see if a

solvent or -- if material is soluble, is it going to completely dissolve in something. Q. All right. All these techniques you said that they have

been not only peer-reviewed, but they have historical background, there is -- is there anything unusual that you did that reaches or pushes the envelope on any of the science that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 tab. THE COURT: Do I have it here in the book? Yes, sir. you're explaining to the Court? A.

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Before technology way back when, I mean, science started So

with a microscope and solubility tests, chemical testing. no, this has been done for thousands of years. Q. Is this basically, what you today, what you did in

preparation of your testimony, your analysis, is this really basic science or almost Chemistry 101? A. Q. This is basic comparative analysis. All right. Yes.

Now, Ms. Walbridge, you also did a series of

photographs for your courtroom presentation today; is that correct? A. Correct. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, it's going to be

Government's Exhibit, I think, it's 10 regarding the series of photographs, and I would like to show that to Court if the Court would like to see that. THE COURT: What are the series of photographs? It's 10, your Honor, series 10 in the

MR. KUMIEGA:

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Let me ask you, Mr. Kumiega, I would like Do you have witnesses lined up

to have the jury here at ten.

for this morning where we can take her, finish this hearing over the lunch hour and take her testimony first thing this B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Kumiega. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Yes, your Honor. Q. afternoon? MR. KUMIEGA: Well, yes.

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I'll take it out of order.

I was planning to put Ms. Walbridge on first and launch into it, your Honor. THE COURT: You have other witnesses here, don't you? I think we do. Yes.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Go ahead. Okay. Ma'am, in front of you, if you

(By Mr. Kumiega)

can -THE COURT: I have the exhibit in front of me, Mr.

Ma'am, in front of you is going to be Soon as the computer gets warmed

Government's Exhibit No. 10. up we'll try to flash it. A. Q. Yes, it is. All right.

Is that a picture of the firearm?

And that's Exhibit No. 1 and it's dated

February 22nd, 2008; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. Were you part of taking those pictures on

page 1 and 2? A. Q. A. Q. I am. My initials SW are on the photograph.

And HA, whose initials is that? Howard Kong. The next page is some letters, or 398. Would a metal

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

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plate sprayed with black plate prior to die stamping and the bottom is metal paint die stamped and sprayed with black paint. Can you explain to the jury if that was part of your experiment that you explained a couple minutes ago? A. It was. These are photographs taken under the It's a close-up of

microscope, so it's not the entire plate. those numbers that I stamped. Q. A. All right.

And you stamped 398; is that correct? I stamped a couple other

That's what I photographed.

numbers and letters, but, yeah. Q. The next page is Howard Kong's work; is that correct?

You also looked at that? A. Q. A. Q. A. What page are you looking at? Next page after the -These are out of order. All right. If you could give me the batch. All of the photographs

in this exhibit are from my case notes. Q. A. Okay. So they are all photographs that I took. THE COURT: I have them here, Mr. Kumiega, if you want

to go ahead and ask your question. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Excuse me, your Honor?

I have the exhibit here if you want to go

ahead and ask questions. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. that? A. Q. Yes. This is part of your file. What does the first MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Okay. All right.

773

You said this photograph, do you see

photograph suggest, please? A. The first photograph is not taken under the microscope, So

so it's what we would call a macro photo of the evidence. we're just documenting the evidence, and the second is, as well, a macro photo. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes, I do. Okay. Let's do the next page, please.

That's -- do you see that on the monitor now?

What are -- what

do these two photographs represent to the Court for you, please? A. These are photographs I took underneath the microscope. And

The first is a close-up of the suspected markings, E683.

then the bottom half is a close-up of just the 6 showing the flaking of the paint on either side of the 6 and that the paint was wedged within the impression. And I used Adobe Photo Shop.

The arrow is something I put in just to kind of have the person examining the photograph see that that paint is lodged within the impression. Q. A. All right. Next photo, please. What is that, please?

This is a photograph not taken under the microscope, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 again, a macro photograph.

774

This is the area of exhibit that I

chose away from the suspected markings to do the solubility testing on. Q. A. All right. So it was three different layers, right? So the arrows

There were three different solvents used.

point to the three areas I've just did the solubility tests on top of, not on top of one another, but horizontal to. Q. And was there a certain technique that you used to apply

the solvents? A. I used a sterile cotton swab moistened with the solvent

that I chose, and then just rubbed that across the painted material. Q. And the solvents you chose, were they accurate or

purported to be what the bottle said? A. All of the solvents we purchase for the laboratory have

to be under Materials that Matter, so they are certified by the company, and then we log in when we received those and when we opened them. Q. So yes. Next page, please. The first, these series

All right.

of photographs, the top has ethyl alcohol, acetone, and the Fry's Reagent; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Did you apply that to that part of the firearm? I did. Okay. And next page, please. What is this? Is this a

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 separate test? A. This is a separate test. This is not on the exhibit.

775

This was the metal plate experiment, and these are photographs taken under the microscope of some of the impressions that were made. Q. A. Next page. This is additionally magnified, still taken under the

microscope view to show that the paint was wedged into the impressions that I made when I painted that metal plate first and then die-stamped it. Q. A. Q. A. And the second photograph, is that the same? Yes. Next photograph, please. What's that, please?

This is still that metal plate, this is not the exhibit.

And this is for me testing what would the acetone look like, you know, was it possible for me just to dissolve the paint within the impression using acetone, since I knew that paint was soluble in acetone from my previous test, and it was impossible for me to do that with a Q-Tip even as I tried. takes off the paint and gives that impression of coloring outside the lines. evidence. And that was nothing I could see on the It

So that, for me, helped conclude that there was no

sign of any solution or solvent used on the marking E683. Q. Next photograph, please. What do these photographs

depict? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

776

This is a photograph also taken under the microscope of

where I sampled for the elemental and chemical test that I did, so the arrow within the 3, that's the paint within the impression. The arrow is on top of that 3, that's the paint

adjacent to the impression. Q. All right. Next photograph, please. What's that,

please? A. This is a photograph representing the same as the last.

I needed to use a little more sample to get good results for my tests. So I just sampled some more, and again, this is just

documenting where I was sampling, because I was altering the evidence so I documented that with a photograph. Q. Can you tell the Court how you altered the evidence in

this case and how you memorialized the markings you left behind during your analysis, please? A. The top markings, those are taken with a clean razor

blade. Q. A. Q. A. Is that this here (indicating)? That is correct, and above. Okay. Indicated by the arrows. There a couple of white arrows

and two black arrows that point to the impressed markings. That paint was scraped out with a needle, a clean needle. Q. Then you compared the paint taken from here and taken

from there using that infrared spectrometer? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. gun. THE WITNESS: (By Mr. Kumiega) Right here, that's where I sampled. or not. A. IRN, yes, SEM for the elemental analysis. Then I

777

memorialized it by taking a photograph of it, so that is how it was when it was packaged back up. MR. KUMIEGA: Agent, can you show Ms. Walbridge the

actual firearm, and she can point to the Court where she actually took the sample from, please. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I don't know that's necessary Seems like we're getting

for this hearing we're doing here.

into the other issue we addressed yesterday. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: What other issue? Whether or not the gun has been altered I don't think this

We agreed it's been altered.

testimony is necessary for the Daubert hearing. MR. KUMIEGA: Only for the record, your Honor, that

part of the evidence was consumed in testing, and I just wanted to make a record. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: I'll stipulate to that. I think it's part of the technique to

show it was peer-reviewed, it was done properly, and we documented it. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Okay. Sir, if you can show her the machine

That's where you took the sample from?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct/Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. Is it Walbridge? Walbridge. Yes. A.

778

That's where I took the samples, and then knowing from my

photograph, I can't point exactly since this is under a microscope where I sampled within the three, but I only used the 3. So there and in that 3 which is indicated by the arrow

in my photograph. Q. To do an actual sample from the evidence itself, did you

have to get peer review or permission from another supervisor to do in fact what you did? A. Q. No. Was that approved later on in your analysis regarding the

peer review? A. The photographs as well as results were peer-reviewed.

It's all part of my case jacket. Q. left. MR. KUMIEGA: States' presentation. THE COURT: THE CLERK: THE COURT: Ms. Youngberg, do we have a jury yet? We have one missing. We have one juror missing, so Mr. Martin, Your Honor, that concludes the United Are there any -- I don't believe there's any photographs

you may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay.

779

Ms. Walbridge, if I might, I understand basically

that your results, your conclusions relate to three separate areas, from what I can understand. paint; is that right? A. Q. Correct. One was that the impressions, the serial numbers it's One was a single layer of

your opinion the paint was present prior to those being put in; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. And that you found no use of any solvents for the removal

of any of this substance you've identified as paint? A. Q. That's correct. Okay. Now, in that regard, ma'am, I believe you talked

about that this was peer-reviewed by, basically, this -- your results were peer-reviewed by an individual named Lee Brun-Conti. A. Q. A. Q. A. I may have said that wrong.

Brun-Conti. Okay. Ms. Ms. Brun-Conti peer review each of your results, ma'am? She did. She gets it all, all after I'm done with it And did Ms. -- Ms. or Mr. --

prior to the report going out, she gets copies of all of my case notes, all of the photographs, all of the test data and that all gets peer-reviewed at once. Q. Who is Stephanie Klinjun (phonetic)? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Stephanie Klinjun is my supervisor. I'm part of the

780

arson and explosives section in our laboratory, and she's the chief, or she's the -- yeah, chief of the arson and explosives section. Q. All right. Now, I'm just -- from your report I notice it Does that mean she reviewed your --

says, quote, reviewed by.

or does that mean she reviewed the results? A. She reviews the report, so that is the admin review part We have the 100 technical review that was

of our laboratory.

done by Ms. Lee Brun-Conti, and then we always have 100 percent administrative review, that was done by Stephanie Klinjun in this case. Q. Okay. And the kind of testing that we're talking about

then, first of all, you characterized it as comparative analysis? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And in this case, as far as the first item that I

talked to you about, the single layer of black coating, the test you performed on that is a microscopic examination; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. Which means you looked through a microscope and you saw

what appeared to be paint and you saw nothing that indicated to you there was another coat? A. Correct. Multiple layers. Yeah. No indication of

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 multiple layers. Q.

781

And you can do that microscopically, is that what your

testimony is, just by looking at paint if it's paint over another coat of paint you can tell that microscopically? A. Q. Correct. All right, ma'am. And did you do that for the entire

surface of the firearm, or did you limit that search to a particular area? A. That search was limited to the surrounding areas of the

impressed marking E683. Q. And I believe your testimony was that the conclusions you

reached were based upon a subjective evaluation on your part; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And when Ms. Lee Brun-Conti came along, did she conduct

the same tests, did she just look at your results, that's what I'm trying to find out, for this peer review process? A. The peer review process is just looking at the results.

She did not look at the evidence, so it wasn't a repeated exam. That would be really cumbersome. So under our policies and

procedures we take detailed notes, photographs, collect all the data, all of that was reviewed by her. Q. All right. And I've been given approximately 15 pages of Is

handwritten notes, some graphs and some photographs also. that what she looked at? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. I would have to check if it was 15 pages.

782 I can't

remember that. Q. A. Q. A. at. Q. A. Q. So she checked your homework? She did check my homework. And she has no way of knowing other than what you wrote I won't hold you to the number. That's correct. Okay. So essentially what you looked at, that's what she looked Yes.

down as to the accuracy of any of the information? A. No. She also gets -- I also copy the ROI, and, which is

report of investigation, as well as when an ATF evidence transmittal form comes in as part of our case jacket. a copy of that. She got

So that is where the agent puts the request,

what they are looking for, what the exhibit number was so she can also check that. Was I looking at Exhibit 1, she can look

at the evidence transmittal form, yes, it coincided with the evidence transmittal form. Q. Well, when you say I microscopically examined this

firearm and saw one single coat of paint, she has to rely on your subjective analysis, she has nothing to look at to make that determination, does she? A. She had the photographs to look at that I took under the

microscope. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. here? A. Q. Correct. Of the single layer coating of paint? Right. Okay. The E683.

783

And is that one of the photographs that we have

That clearly indicates that is one single layer of paint

in that area? A. Q. Correct. All right, ma'am. And likewise, for example, you talked

about, I think you said there is no error rate, or you characterized it as no error rate in your analysis; is that correct? A. That's correct. There is no error rate in a comparative

analysis. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You talked about three solvents, right, right? Yes. Okay. That was a guess, right? A guess at what?

I don't understand your question.

Well, you don't know what three solvents were allegedly

used on this firearm? A. I don't know what solvent was used on the firearm, that So I took an educated guess to consider that the

is correct.

person was not a chemist, not someone that works in a laboratory, just an everyday person, what type of chemicals are available to everyday people, so I chose the ethyl alcohol and B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 acetone based on that.

784

Then the Fry's Reagent was because this

person was a firearms dealer and we know that you can restore serial numbers using the Fry's Reagent. that solution. Q. A. Q. My question was: That was a guess, right? Yes. That's why I chose

It was an educated guess. Okay. All right.

I don't care how you call, how you

want to define it, by it was a guess, and if you're wrong, then there's an error rate. Would you agree with that, ma'am?

Could be 100 percent wrong on that, couldn't you? A. I wouldn't say that was 100 percent wrong. I think

regardless of what was used, if that paint was soluble in whatever solvent was used there would be some indication of that around that impressed markings E683. of that coating gone because of that. Q. And you're making the assumption that the solvent, You would see part

whatever it was, made the paint be soluble; is that right? A. Yes. That would be the only way you could uncover

something is that paint would have to dissolve. Q. All right, ma'am. And let me ask you this: You also

testified about a metal stamp process where I think you took two examples, one where you stamped it and painted it, one where you painted it and then stamped it. A. Q. That is correct. All right. Did you do anything that would take into Do you recall that?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 account painting, stamping, and the aging process of approximately 22 years, ma'am? A. Painting, stamping, and aging process. No.

785

I didn't do any

aging analysis. Q. Okay.

Would it not be important to know what could occur

to the, any potential paint within a serial number if it had been handled, used, misused, or whatever, for approximately a 22-year period of time? A. I think from my knowledge of paint and weathering of

paint, also aging, whatever you want to call it, that it would be cracked, maybe absent. But that really didn't affect what

my conclusions were, that the paint was there prior to the stamping, because that stamping physically altered the paint and pushed it into the impressions. Q. Well, if it's stamped and then painted, are you saying

the paint is not going to go into the impressions, ma'am? A. Q. I'm sorry. Repeat that, please.

If it's stamped and then painted, will the paint not go

in the impressions? A. The paint will go in the impression, but you won't see it It will be very smooth, similar to

being physically altered.

the photographs that I took for my experiment. Q. Twenty-two years later, will it still be, that's my

question, 22 years later, if it occurred in 1986, let's say, this is 2008, after aging, use, wear, whatever, probably not B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 going to look the same, is it, ma'am? A. Q. A. Q. I don't know. You didn't take that into consideration? I didn't do a 22-year age process thing. All right. No.

786

And I believe you said that you tested the

paint on the firearm, and the paint as you described it in the, inside the serial numbers, and you determined that they had similar chemical and similar qualities, right? A. Q. A. Q. Correct. Paint is paint, isn't it, ma'am? What do you mean by that? I mean, all paint for the most part has the same

properties, does it not? A. Q. No. If I -- in other words, I can go to the hardware store

and buy two cans of black paint and they can both have the same basic chemical properties, won't they, ma'am? A. Q. Possibly; possibly not. All right. Depends on the manufacturer.

And you actually, I don't remember exactly

what the name of the tests were, but I got a chart here where you actually tested these paints here, and I may have the wrong ones. Let me approach real quickly here. Is that the example on the chart? In your photograph this is just the I've got three

charts. A.

This is an overlay.

single spec.

This is what we call spectra, this is the results

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 of the FTIR. Q. A. Q. Is that those two -- is that these two put together? Yes. It's just another presentation of those two.

787

And this is, if I may, this is the chemical from the

testing that you did, this is how you found that the chemical properties were consistent, right? A. Q. Yes. Uh-huh. And by similar, the only place they actually Would you agree

Similar.

match exactly is where I circled there in red. with that, ma'am. A. Go ahead.

When you're looking at IR data you're looking at the The -- you're considering that the numbers

overall spectra.

are the same, the peaks. Q. A. Right. Unless you're analyzing the exact same, the peaks are

going to differ slightly based on the absorbence and the data. As long as they are not varying by plus or minus five, they are similar. So the properties, overall chemical properties for

both of these are similar. Q. My question was only, ma'am, the only place they were

exact is where I circled them in red. A. Q. Those are the same chemicals. Your testimony is that they are similar at peak levels, Right?

but not the same numbers. A. Correct.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. Now, when you used the solution, I think you

788

testified that you used a -- three different solutions to test the firearm in an attempt to remove a portion of the paint; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That's right. Okay. And I think you said you used a Q-Tip? Similar to Q-Tips. Yes.

Sterile cotton swab.

I'm not trying to be funny. Yeah. Q-Tips.

That's my terminology.

And depending upon the amount of pressure you would apply

and the amount of solution in the cotton swab, would determine how much paint would or would not be removed. with that, ma'am? A. No. It's based on whether that paint is going to be Would you agree

soluble in that liquid being used. Q. The amount of pressure and the amount of solution present

has no impact on the amount of paint that is removed; is that your testimony? A. It's all based on the solubility. No matter how much you

stir oil and water, they are not soluble in one another. Q. I understand that. So just to make sure I made my --

understand, if you don't use enough solution, you're not going to remove the same amount of paint, are you, ma'am? A. Are you asking if that solution is -- if that paint is

soluble in that solution, it's based on solubility? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

789

Let me make it something that I understand because I'm

married and my wife uses fingernail polish remover, and that's one of the solutions you used. A. Q. Correct. If you don't have enough fingernail polish on your cotton

ball, you're not going to get all the paint off your fingernail, correct? A. Q. You're going to get some of the paint. And that's my question. Depending upon the amount of

solvent you use determines how much of the paint you'll remove off of the object; would you agree with that? A. I think that if the paint is soluble in the solution, If you just use a little bit, a If you use a lot, a whole bunch will

some of it will come up. little bit will come up. come up. Q. you.

That's what my question, that's what I intended to ask I may not have done it very scientifically artful, but So based upon the

that's what my question was intended to be.

amount of solvent you used, and did you measure how much you used with each experiment we saw you -- by your photographs up there? A. I saturated the sterile swabs with each of the solvents

or solutions used. Q. A. So you, like, dipped them in the bottles or something? No. That would be contamination.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Okay.

790

You poured it into another something then dipped I'm

it in.

In other words, the swab was completely saturated.

not trying to say you contaminated it. A. Q. The swab was completely saturated. Yes.

On each of the three, on each of the three experiments

you did? A. Q. Yes. And you have no clue based upon the information that was

provided to you as to whether or not cotton swabs were used, do you, ma'am? A. Q. I do not. Nor whether or not whatever item, if any, were used it

was completely saturated? A. I do not have that information. THE COURT: No.

Excuse me, Mr. Martin.

Ms. Youngberg, do you want to bring the jury up? You can continue for another couple minutes until the jury gets here. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: the lunch hour. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Martin) If a solvent was used on this firearm May I have just a moment, your Honor? Yes. Okay, your Honor. We'll continue the hearing at lunch, over

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 prior to your examination of it, and one of the layers of

791

coating were removed, would you be able to see that through a microscope? A. Q. A. If there was a coating on top of the impressed markings? Correct. I didn't see any indication that there was another But if some of it was left, for instance, if not all

coating.

of it was taken up, depending on the saturation of whatever is used, I would be able to see under the microscope another layer on top of it, and I didn't see another layer. Q. A. Q. And if it had all been removed? I wouldn't be able to see it. Okay. Now, other than the microscope, is there some

other scientific instrument that's available to tell you whether or not there is more than one coating of paint on the firearm, ma'am? A. A scanning electron microscope, which this couldn't fit But that's a

into, but if it was a smaller instrument.

microscope scope too, you're just magnifying your image, being able to see the fine detail of it. THE COURT: Mr. Martin, why don't we take our recess

as far as this hearing is concerned because the jury is on their way up. You may retake your seat. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I have two concerns, I don't

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 we? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Yes, sir. She's not going to testify until after

792

know if you want to take them up now about this testimony that don't necessarily relate to the Daubert should you make that finding, but I would like to put them in the record. THE COURT: We can do that over the lunch hour, can't

lunch if the Court rules that she can testify. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: I'm just afraid I'm going to forget. Don't count on me to remember it, though. I made a note. You may be excused.

(The jury was brought into court.) THE COURT: Case CR-2008-41-L, United States of Are the parties ready to

America versus Larry Douglas Friesen. proceed with trial? MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:

Yes, your Honor. Yes, sir.

Government may call their next witness. Yes, your Honor. The United States

MR. KUMIEGA:

would like to call Joseph Newell. (Witness sworn)

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Mr. Newell, would you introduce yourself to the jury, JOSEPH NEWELL, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

793

please? A. My name is Joseph Newell. I'm associated with Doug

Friesen from a few years back. Q. A. Excuse me. I couldn't hear you.

I'm an associate from Doug Friesen from a few years back.

He's my attorney on some legal issues that I had taken care of. Q. All right. Can you pull that microphone closer to you.

I'm having a hard time hearing you. A. Q. How is that? Good. Now, first of all, what do you do for a living,

please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Right now I'm a police officer for the State of Oklahoma. And for what agency, please? The Oklahoma Military Department. And what is that? Basically, that's the National Guard. And how long have you been doing that, please? About five and a half years. And what do you do for the military? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

794

Like I said, I'm a police officer, I'm assigned to the

Air National Guard Base at Will Rogers. Q. A. All right. And what did you do before that, please?

Before that I worked at H&H Gun Range as one of their

managers. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. And are you originally from Oklahoma?

I was raised here; I was actually born overseas. Okay. Did you go to high school here in Oklahoma City? Yes.

Del City. Okay.

Now, you said that you retained, you retained Mr.

Friesen for a proceeding; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. My divorce. And when did that occur, please?

All right.

That was finalized almost six years ago. All right. When did you first hire Mr. Friesen regarding

that proceeding? A. Q. That probably went on for 18 months to two years. All right. What -- can you give the jury a date and time

that you basically hired Mr. Friesen? A. Q. A. Q. I would say late in 2001. All right. That sounds about right. And during the course of your retention, or retaining Mr.

Friesen, did you discussed fees and how you were going to pay Mr. Friesen? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. We discuss the that up front.

795 Originally, I gave And then it was

him an initial fee, I believe it was $2,000. $100 a month after that. Q. Let me ask you this:

During any course of time did you

give Mr. Friesen any firearms that you owned or possessed? A. Yes. Mr. Friesen decided that I was too slow in paying

at $100 a month, and because of the divorce proceeding he had an inventory of my firearms. And he decided that if he could

look through my list of firearms he would take some of those and we would call it good. Q. A. Q. All right. And how big was your list of firearms?

At that time I believe it was 12 or 14. All right. And did Mr. Friesen and you agree on how many

firearms to give him in lieu of, I guess, paying cash for the divorce proceedings? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. After he looked through the inventory, yes, we did. And how many firearms did you give him, sir? I believe it was five or six. And do you remember the type of firearms you gave him? For the most part, yes, I do. Can you tell the jury what firearms you gave Mr. Friesen,

and when, about what time period did you give Mr. Friesen those firearms? A. 2003. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 That was probably February or March of, I want to say

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Q. A. All right.

796

There was a Para Ordnance pistol, I want to say there was

a Ruger pistol, a Ruger .22 rifle, a Remington shotgun, a Ruger revolver. Off the top of my head that's all I remember. Your Honor, may I approach the witnesses

MR. KUMIEGA: regarding his list? THE COURT:

Yes. Mr. Newell, what I'm handing you is a Can you read that silently and

(By Mr. Kumiega)

report that you gave to ATF.

let me ask you if that refreshes your recollection after you read it, please. A. Q. Yes, it does. Okay. And let me ask you: What guns -- are -- does that

report accurately portray the firearms you gave to Mr. Friesen? A. Q. A. I believe so. Can you read that for the record? "A Para Ordnance Model 745 .45 caliber pistol, a Ruger Model Blackhawk .357 caliber pistol revolver, a Ruger Model P95 nine millimeter pistol, a Ruger Model 1022 .22 caliber semi-automatic rifle, and a Remington Model 870 .12 gauge shotgun." All right. Now, did agents of ATF contact you about

certain firearms that were found in possession of Mr. Friesen in June of 2004? A. Yes, they did. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right.

797

Now, when -- when did you finish your divorce

proceedings, and your attorney/client relationship with Mr. Friesen concluded about when, please? A. That was January, January or February, I want to say,

about 2003. Q. A. All right. Right. That's when everything concluded?

And I gave him these firearms and that was the

end of it. Q. Let's back up. You said, again, I think you might have

misspoke.

When did you retain Mr. Friesen, if you remember,

and gave him the firearms? A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Okay. And I retained him 18 months, two years prior to that. All right. When you say "towards the end," about what -I gave him the firearms towards the end.

what time period did you give him the guns? A. It was after the divorce was finalized and it was, I want

to say one or two months after that. Q. A. Q. And that would be when, please? I want to say that was February or March, 2003. Okay. So February/March 2003; is that when you gave him

the firearms? A. Q. I believe so. Okay. Yes.

And then, as I said before, ATF agents showed you

some guns that purport to be yours, or purport that you give B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 him for your divorce custody, or your divorce case; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. Can you look at Government's Exhibit 2.10, please.

798

Does

that appear to be one of your firearms? A. Q. Yes, it does. All right. And let's look at Government's Exhibit 2.14,

please. A. Q.

Does that appear to be one of your firearms?

Yes, it does. All right. Now, the February/March date, could you be

mistaken. A. Q.

Can that be March or April, if you remember?

Yes, it could be. Okay. I just want to make sure the testimony is correct.

Mr. Newell, did you also retain the services of Mr. Friesen after your divorce proceedings concluded? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. After they concluded? Yes. No, I didn't. Did you retain him regarding a bankruptcy case? Yes, I did. Was that about -- can you tell the jury the time frame of

that, please? A. That was after the divorce had started, but that wrapped So it was sometime inside that

up before the divorce did. period.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. BY MR. MARTIN: Q. During the course of the time that Doug Friesen MR. KUMIEGA: the case agent. THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor. Yes.

799

Your Honor, if I may have a moment with

You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION

represented you, Mr. Newell, did you or him ever discuss an entity known as Lobo Arms? A. Q. No. All right, sir. And it's my understanding, Mr. Kumiega

showed you a piece of paper, and it's my understanding -MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) If I may approach, your Honor. -- you identified, looks like five

firearms on this document here as firearms you gave to him; is that right? A. Q. Yes. That's correct.

And that was for services for, basically to finalize your

attorney fees on that divorce case; is that right, sir? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And did you see this form? Have you read this

before you testified today, sir? A. Yes, I have. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay.

800

I'm going to ask you, sir, right under that list

of firearms, item number 7, can you see that? A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I can. All right. Do you want me read it? I'm going to ask you to read it to yourself, then I'll

ask you a question about it. A. Q. Okay. Okay. Did you tell the agents when you were interviewed

back in, I can't remember the date of the interview, but sometime ago that you provided the firearms to Mr. Friesen in March or April of 2003, sir? A. Q. Yes, sir. Okay. And that's on the same report that shows the

firearms that you received; is that correct, sir? A. Q. Yes, it is. All right. And these were your personal firearms, were

they not, sir? A. Q. Yes, they are. All right. And you -Let me have just one moment, your Honor.

MR. MARTIN: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:

Nothing further. Anything further, Mr. Kumiega? Yes, just one question or two follow-up

MR. KUMIEGA:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Newell - Cross/Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. And that cleaned your bill with him, right? Yes. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Mr. Newell, you may be excused. BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. questions, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION

801

Mr. Newell, can you tell the jury how you delivered the

guns to Mr. Friesen? A. I took them to his office, we went -- well, we went

upstairs so his actual office, and I laid them out on his conference table in his office. He checked them, decided which

ones he wanted, and then I took the rest of them back home. Q. All right. So you took your whole collection; is that

correct? A. I think I may have left one or two, but for the most

part, yes. Q. All right. And he then -- how did he determine which

ones he wanted? A. He looked them over, and I don't know what criteria he

was using, but he decided which ones he wanted, and let me keep the rest of them. MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further, your Honor. RECROSS-EXAMINATION

The Court

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. would advise you not to discuss your testimony you've given here today with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. You may be excused.

802

Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, your Honor. The United States

would like to call Catherine Long. CATHERINE LONG, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

Ma'am, would you introduce yourself to the jury, please? My name is Catherine Ann Long. And Ms. Long, can you pull the microphone closer to you? I'll just scoot up. Okay. And how are you employed currently, please?

I'm an administrative assistant for AirMark Aviation

Services. Q. A. Q. A. Where is that located? Will Rogers World Airport. What do you do for that company, please? I do some of the hiring and firing, I'm also a trainer

for the -- we handle the ramp operations for Delta. Q. A. All right. And how big is your company? It's about a $13 billion corporation.

It's fairly large.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And do you know how many employees you have here in

803

Oklahoma City? A. Q. Locally, I have 30. Now, can you tell us something about your educational

background, please? A. I'm sorry. I'm a bit nervous here. I've got an

associate's degree as a legal assistant, I was an air traffic controller in the Air Force, I was trained through Dow Global Services, which is a subsidiary of Delta, also through Airmark as a ramp services trainer. Q. All right. Now, you said you have an associate's degree, Is that what you said? Yes.

is it paralegal studies? A. Q. A. Q.

Legal assistance through Rose State College.

What year did you receive your associate's, please? I believe it was 1999. All right. Now, at one time, ma'am, were you employed by

Mr. Friesen? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. From what time periods, please? From approximately May 2000 through August of 2003. And in what capacity and how did you work, what did you

do for Mr. Friesen, please? A. I was initially hired as his personal assistant, and

approximately two to three weeks after I accepted a position with him, the receptionist didn't show up for work, so I B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

804

assumed her responsibilities, which included opening, closing case files, answering phones, managing the docket. From there

I was, I guess, reclassified as an administrative assistant, which involved also ordering office supplies, still continued to handle some of his personal aspects. And towards the last

three months of my employment I actually worked as a legal assistant on the domestic side of the house. Q. How big was -- how many employees were in that law firm If you can give a

at the time you worked there, please? rough -A. Q. Anywhere from three to six. All right.

Now, during this period of time, did you

notice if Mr. Friesen maintained a federal firearm license to sell firearms? A. Q. A. Yes. How did you know that? I had to submit some sort of documentation to the

Oklahoma Tax Commission stating whether or not he had bought or sold any guns. Q. A. All right. Yes. And were you part of that paperwork?

I had to figure out how to do it, so I had someone

from the Tax Commission walk me through it. Q. All right. And let me ask you this: During the course

of your working for Mr. Friesen during I guess from May 2000 to August 2003, did you see people bring firearms to Mr. Friesen's B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 office? A. Q. A. Yes. Under what circumstances, please? There was one instance where a woman had brought a

805

handgun in.

I believe the circumstances were she was fearful

of her -- not of her husband but something that he might do with the gun, so she brought it in. Q. A. All right. What else, please?

Another instance where a gentleman, I believe he had lost

his job and in order to pay his attorney fees surrendered a gun. Q. Were there any other instances besides the two that you

mentioned? A. I had a little bit of time to think. I believe that

there was a couple that had brought in several larger guns, and it was basically used as collateral until they could come up with the money to pay him, and they were given back to them. So -Q. During the period of time you were working for Mr.

Friesen, did you know about an interesting compartment on the first floor of the business? A. Q. A. Yes. All right. Can you tell the jury about that, please?

It was a, I guess, a secret room behind the bookshelves

in the library of the office. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes. How would a person gain access to the secret room, And were you privy to that?

806

please? A. It was a remote control access where you actually pushed

a button to open, I guess unlock it and have to push on a certain set of books, or actually the shelves and it would open up. Q. A. Q. And did you ever utilize that device? Yes. All right. And how often would you be in that secret

room, so to speak? A. Oh, probably half a dozen times a year. Wasn't really

that often. Q. 2.01. MR. KUMIEGA: Can we dim the lights a little bit, your All right. And let me show you Government's Exhibit

Honor, if that's possible? THE COURT: Okay. Is that the office?

(By Mr. Kumiega) Yes.

It's the front entrance.

What is that, please? The bookshelves in the library and the opening to, I To the left is a safe, and behind the

guess, the secret room.

actual door to the right are personal paintings and pictures. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 There's the safe. Q. A. Q. You said -That's Mr. Friesen's office. Okay. Let me ask you this: Those are the pictures.

807

Do you know if there was a

safe in Mr. Friesen's office on the second floor? A. Q. A. I don't recall. Okay. Now, who was privy to the secret room?

Mr. Friesen -- when you mean "privy," do you mean who

knew about it, or -Q. A. Who knew about it and who went there? Both.

Mostly Mr. Friesen or anybody that he asked to go in

there. Q. All right. And can you tell the jury the names of some

of the people that he invited back into the secret room, please? A. Q. A. It was Jim Foster -Who is Jim Foster? He's a private investigator that did some work for Mr.

Friesen. Q. A. Who else? John Nelson, who I believe constructed it, sometimes we

would have problems with the lock, he would have to come fix it. There were a couple other legal assistants through the

time. Q. Let me ask you this: Does some of the attorneys that

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 worked for him, were they also privy or knew about it? A.

808

The only other attorney that I was aware of that worked

for him was Sherry Gray at the time, and to be honest with you, I don't recall her ever going down there. Q. Okay. Now, what I have here, I'm going to show you That's the Armor vault. Is that

Government's Exhibit 2.1. what we're talking about? A. Q. Yes.

Let's look at 2.2, 2.3, and 2.4.

Ma'am, let's go back to

2.2, please. A. Q. Yes.

Have you ever seen the safe opened up?

All right.

And what did you see when, during the course

of your employment, what was contained in the safe, please? A. Q. A. Q. Guns. Guns? Yeah. Kind of like rifles and shotguns, handguns.

And can you give the jury the sense during the course of

your employment how many guns or how full that gun safe was, please? A. Anywhere from -- best guess, honestly, probably about

eight to ten guns. Q. All right. And during the course of your employment, was

it always like that? A. Q. Any time I had to open it. All right. Yeah.

The same type amount of firearms?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yeah.

809

I would -- to be honest with you, I'm not really

familiar with guns, but they didn't look any different from any other time I had opened it up. Q. All right. Let me ask you this: Besides firearms in the

secret room, were there other valuables stored there, please? A. Personal valuables. Trinkets, gifts that were given to

him over the years.

He's got a logo with wolves, and a lot of

people thought he was a collector of them, which I guess, in fact, he was, and paintings. Q. All right. So, again, you saw the gun safe with firearms

between the time of your employment from May 2000 to August 2003? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. And what was her -- the nature of her relationship with Do you know a Lana Cohlmia?

Mr. Friesen? A. Her and Doug Friesen hosted a radio talk show on KTOK,

Saturday Night Law. Q. A. All right. And I was -- one of my responsibilities was co-producer,

soliciting persons to get on the show, or sometimes they would, Mr. Friesen or Ms. Cohlmia would ask me to try and get somebody on the show, and I did my best to do that. Q. And did Ms. Cohlmia office in that building? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. No. Where did she office at, please?

810

She had officed up on North Classen, and then later on They were both joined in a

moved to the office next door.

large class action, excuse me, can't talk, class action lawsuit on FenPhen. They were collaborating on that. Your Honor, if I may have a moment with

MR. KUMIEGA: the case agent. THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Kumiega)

Yes.

Ma'am, you said during the course of

your employment you saw people bring firearms to the -- to where, please? A. Q. To the office. All right. They would bring them to Mr. Friesen.

And do you know what would happen to the

firearms? A. In the instance with the woman that had brought one in

that was fearful of here husband using the gun in some manner, she had given it to him, and after she left he asked me to lock it up in the safe. full. Q. A. Full -So I just put it on the floor so he could put it up later And when I went down to the safe it was

and adjust his storage of whatever was in there. Q. Okay. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Ms. Long, through your period of employment at Doug Honor. THE COURT: You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. KUMIEGA:

811

No other questions of this witness, your

Friesen's law firm, you were familiar with his background in firearms, were you not, ma'am? A. Q. Yes. And you were familiar with the fact that he was teaching

self-defense classes and concealed classes at H&H Gun Range, were you not, ma'am? A. Q. Yes, I was. And that he had gone to numerous different types of

firearm classes himself personally? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. And that he taught many firearm training classes? Yes. And that he taught self-defense classes? As far as self-defense, I don't know that was going on

while I was there. Q. A. Q. Okay. I don't really recall that. And you were also familiar with the fact that he had a, I

think you said a radio talk show they called Saturday Night B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Law? A. Q. Yes.

812

And he did that program, I believe you said, with Lana

Cohlmia? A. Q. Yes. And they would have judges and lawyers and police

officers and people come on and talk on Saturday night, right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And part of your duty, I think you said, was to

help co-produce that show, right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And I believe you testified, at least by my notes,

of three instances that you recall where firearms were brought to the office? A. Q. Yes. Okay. One I think you said was where a woman brought a

firearm to the office because she is afraid of her husband, or afraid what her husband might do with the firearm; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. The other one, I believe you testified, was that And so it was just, hang onto this for me, right?

an individual had lost his job and surrendered his firearms to pay attorney fees; is that right? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. That was my understanding. Okay. And then one, I think the last one you told us

813

about was where I think a couple came in and wanted to hire him and apparently didn't have the funds to immediately hire him, and they put the firearms up as collateral until they got those funds, correct? A. Q. back. A. Q. Yes, they did. Okay. Now, you've talked about what Mr. Kumiega has Did you Yes. And I'm assuming that they eventually got those firearms

characterized as a secret room where the safe was. have access to that safe? A. Q. Yes. Okay.

So you knew how to get in the safe and how to get

into the room? A. I had access to the room. In order to get into the safe

I had to have a key, because there were actually two locks on it, and Mr. Friesen had that. Q. A. Q. A. So --

So for example, when you -I would always ask him for the key. He would give you the key? He would tell me to go in it. I just didn't arbitrarily

go in there for any reason. Q.

So it was at his direction.

So he would hand you the key? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Yeah.

814

And you would go down there and unlock it and get it in? Uh-huh. And if you had an item to place in there, you would place

it in there, lock it, and bring him the key back? A. Q. Yeah. Okay. Not like he was trying to keep you from knowing

what the contents of that safe was, was it, ma'am? A. Q. No. All right. I believe you testified that you saw anywhere

from eight to ten firearms in that safe at any time you may have opened it; do you recall that? A. Q. Yeah. And during the period of time that you worked for Mr.

Friesen, how many times do you think you were in that safe, your best guess? A. Q. A. Q. Probably a dozen. A dozen times? Yeah. Okay. A dozen, 15 times maybe. And I think you testified you were aware that he

had a -- he was a federal firearms dealer, correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. And I think you said you had to learn how to

fill out some forms or tax forms for the Oklahoma Tax Commission relating to that; is that right? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. Okay. Just the tax forms.

815

You weren't involved in any way in any filling out

of any other forms relating to the purchase or sale of the firearms, were you? A. Q. No. And you don't even know, do you, ma'am, if even -- if

that company even sold or bought any firearms during that period of time that you worked there, do you? A. I know what I was told, that whenever I had to file the

paperwork with the Tax Commission that none were bought, none were sold. Q. Okay. So from 2000, May of 2000 through August of 2003,

at least with the Tax Commission, you put down that none were bought and none were sold? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And, ma'am, you were asked about Lana Cohlmia, and

I think that was the co-host of that Saturday Night Live, Saturday Night Talk? A. Q. they? A. Q. Occasionally. And it would not be uncommon, would it, for her to be at Yes. She and Mr. Friesen worked on cases together, didn't

the office? A. No, not uncommon. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

816

Because you said they were working on some, quote, class

action, was it FenPhen? A. Q. Yeah. Okay. FenPhen. And that was -- you were kind of familiar with

that, were you not, ma'am? A. Q. Yes. And the object behind that was to get as many clients as

you possibly could because your percentage of whatever recovery there would be would be based upon the number of clients you could obtain. A. Q. Would you agree with that? Yes.

It's my understanding.

And so Mr. Friesen or Ms. Cohlmia would interview and try

to sign up, so to say, as many as FenPhen clients as possible? A. Q. Yes. And Ms. Cohlmia then would be at the office or he would

be at her office for the purpose of trying to encourage people who may have been involved in FenPhen to sign up for that litigation, would you agree with that? A. Q. Yes. Now, you were present or saw Mr. Friesen on February

19th, 2003, the day of the compliance inspection, did you not, ma'am? A. Q. I believe so. Okay. Yeah.

And the government has provided us a chart here. Do you see that date?

I don't even -- February 19, 2003.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. Okay.

817

And when you were interviewed by the government,

you told them that on that day Doug was upset because he was unable to find his firearms records? A. Q. Correct. As a matter of fact, he had everybody searching the

office to help him find those records so he could show the agents, provide those to the inspectors, didn't he? A. He had several of us, not everybody, because he still had

a business to run. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Right. But there were at least three or four of us looking. You were one of them? Yes. Jim Foster was one of them? Yes. And there were other people also looking? I believe John Nelson was because he was doing some work

at Mr. Friesen's house. Q. And we didn't find them that day, or they weren't found

that day, right? A. Q. A. No. And he was pretty upset about that? Yes. He remembered seeing them, but because of the

construction at his home couldn't remember exactly where he had B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. placed them. Q. A. We thought we had put them in the office.

818

And he eventually found them, did he not? Yes, he did. It was located behind the safe at his

personal residence. Q. A. Q. Okay. Or close to it. All right. And you know shortly after that that he

provided those -- well, almost immediately after that, he provided those to the inspectors that were out there on the 19th? A. Q. From my understanding. Okay. MR. MARTIN: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further. Redirect. Thank you, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION One moment, your Honor. Yes.

Ms. Long, regarding the records, how do you know that he

found them behind the safe? A. Q. A. Q. Because that's what he told me. Okay. And I saw the book. All right. Other than what he told you where he found

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it, you have no personal knowledge of where he found it; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay.

819

And you also said that you had -- you would tell

the Oklahoma Tax Commission about his purchasing firearms and selling firearms, or make a report regarding that; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Did you, in fact, help him create his firearms documents,

his A&D books? A. I didn't actually write in them. He just ran out of

pages at one point and asked me to recreate using an Excel spreadsheet. Q. A. Q. Did you do that? Yes. Okay. Did you ever help him enter anything into

documents in the A&D books? A. Q. A. Q. No. Do you know if anybody did? No. Okay. Do you know where the firearms records were

supposed to be stored? A. Q. No, not really. Okay. So other than the inspection that occurred on

February 19th, that's the only time, that's the only time that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Long - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

820

there was a concern regarding the firearms documents; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And then you said you worked, again, from May 2000

to August 2003? A. Q. Yes. And you've been in the secret room you said 12 to 15

times? A. Q. Yeah. And you said every time when the safe was opened it was

always full of guns? A. Q. A. Q. Pretty much, yeah. Okay. I was actually in the room more than I was in the safe. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: I have nothing further, your Honor. No questions. Ms. Long, you may be excused, and I would Any time that I was in there.

advise you you're not to discuss the testimony given here today with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. may be excused. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Thank you. You

Call your next witness. Yes, your Honor. The United States

MR. KUMIEGA:

would call Annette Johnson. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. ANNETTE JOHNSON, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

821

Ma'am, if you can pull that microphone forward or move Would you introduce yourself to the jury, please?

your chair. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

Annette Johnson. And, ma'am, what do you for a living? I'm an office manager at Northwestern Mutual. All right. And where is that located?

At the Waterford, 6301 Waterford Boulevard. And how long have you been working for, you said

Northwestern Mutual? A. Q. A. Q. Since January 1st. All right. Yes, sir. And can you tell the Court and the jury what you did Of this year?

before, please? A. Q. A. Q. My husband had a business. What type of business? It was a printing business. And how long did you work with your husband before you

went to Northwestern? A. He had it for 16 years before he sold it. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes, sir. What does he do? He works for Pennsylvania Life as an associate rep. All right. And is your husband now employed also?

822

Northwestern Mutual, how big is your office,

please? A. Q.

How many employees are there?

We have about 30 people. Okay. Was there a time in your life, ma'am, that you

tried to retain the services of Mr. Douglas Friesen? A. Q. A. Yes. Can you tell the jury why, please? I retained him for a divorce, because my husband and I

were having some problems. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes. Okay. Now, was there -- when did you first meet Mr. When did you retain his services, please? And have you subsequently reconciled?

Friesen, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q.

It was in 2002. All right. About when?

November, December. All right. Late November or early December. And he was going to represent you in what capacity,

please? A. In a divorce. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right. Okay.

823

During this point in time did you have

an opportunity to discuss a fee arrangement; is that correct? A. Yes. I retained him and I gave him -- gave his office a

check. Q. All right. And let me ask you this: Were you also

concerned about a certain safety issue regarding, in case the divorce became volatile? A. Q. A. Yes. Tell us about that, please. My husband had some guns, and I had -- we have children And so I told his office

and I didn't want them in the house.

about them, and he said that -- not he, but his office said there was a safe that they can keep them in. Q. All right. And was there a chance or a time when you

brought that -- these firearms to Mr. Friesen's office? A. Q. Yes. All right. And about what time period did you bring the

guns to Mr. Friesen's office, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I believe it was sometime in early December. Of what year, please? Of 2002. Early December of 2002? Yes, sir. Okay. Now, was there a time, ma'am -- first of all, how

many guns did you bring to the office, if you remember? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Two. All right.

824

Was there a time, ma'am, that ATF interviewed

you about some guns that were found in Mr. Friesen's office? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Now, when you said you brought them to Mr.

Friesen's office, who did you bring them to, if you remember? A. I don't recall the gentleman's name, but he had a

ponytail. Q. Okay. Now, ATF interviewed you, I guess a couple years

ago regarding some firearms that were recovered from Mr. Friesen's office; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) If you can show 2.8, please. Ma'am, what we're showing you for

identification purposes is a piece of evidence that has already been admitted, Government's Exhibit 2.9. that? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I remember it being a box. Okay. Yes. Or his office? His office. All right. And if you can open that box up. Is this the Is that the type of box you gave to Mr. Friesen? Are you familiar with

type of box that you gave Mr. Friesen and did it contain B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 something? A.

825

I gave his office a box, but I don't know, I don't know I knew there was a gun in it.

that this is what was in it. Q. A. Q. All right. Two.

And how many guns did you give him?

Let's look at Government's Exhibit 2.8.

Let me ask you

before we go any further, is there a note inside that box? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that your name? Yes. It says "Annette Johnson."

Excuse me? It says "Annette Johnson." Okay. No. Is that your signature on that?

That's not my writing. Now, in front of you is Government's Exhibit 2.8. If you'll look at the screen.

Okay.

Are you familiar with that? A. Q. A. Q. No, I'm not. Okay. And 2.7.

Are you familiar with that?

No, I'm not. Okay. Would your husband -- whose guns were these,

please? A. Q. A. Q. My husband's. Would your husband be able to identify those firearms? I believe so. Okay. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That's not your handwriting? No, sir. And there's a date on there, 12/19/02. Yes. Do you know whose handwriting that is? I don't. Okay. Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: You may cross-examine. May I approach, your Honor? Yes. CROSS-EXAMINATION MR. KUMIEGA:

826

Nothing further from this witness, your

Do you see that?

Ms. Johnson, there's an individual that has worked

with Mr. Friesen in the past named Jim Foster who has a ponytail. A. Q. Does that ring a bell to you? I don't recall his last name.

The name Jim possibly. Okay.

Do you recall, ma'am, when this was going on,

calling and talking to the office about your concern over the safety that there might be -- these firearms might be used during some type of a domestic assault or something, ma'am? A. I don't know -- I do. I don't know if it was over the

phone or if it was when I was in his office. Q. Okay. Let me ask you this, ma'am: Do you recall Mr.

Foster coming to your residence with some officers to pick up B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Johnson - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 these firearms from you? A. Q. No. I recall taking them to the office.

827

You don't remember anyone coming to your house from that

office to pick up these firearms? A. Q. No, I don't. All right. Do you have -- let me ask you this: This was

in approximately December of 2002, right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And the first time that you even thought about

that again, I'm assuming, was when you were interviewed by the ATF some years later; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And you've not testified before a grand jury or

anything, have you, ma'am? A. Q. No. Okay. And let me ask you this: You never gave these

firearms to Mr. Friesen? A. Q. No. And you don't know what happened to those firearms, where

they were located, or where they were after you gave them to someone in the office? A. spot. Q. A. Is that the man with the ponytail? Yes, sir. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 They told me they would be put into a safe, in a safe

Johnson - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Ma'am, did you ever get the guns back? No, sir, I didn't. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further. Q. Okay. All right.

828

And those firearms that the government

has already introduced, you don't have any independent recollection of them or know if these are even those firearms; is that right? A. Q. No, I don't. Okay. I'm assuming that at that point in 2002, you

weren't really concerned about the firearms or what they looked like, you were just concerned about the safety of you and your children. A. Q. Yes. And whatever it took to protect you and your children you Would that be safe, ma'am?

were going to do; is that right? A. Q. A. I wanted -- I didn't want the firearms in my home. All right. I wanted them in a safe place. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: Nothing further. REDIRECT EXAMINATION May I have just a moment, your Honor? Yes.

Ms. Johnson, you may be excused, and I

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. would advise you you're not to discuss the testimony you've given here today with other persons who may be a witness. may be excused. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Thank you.

829

You

Call your next witness. Yes, your Honor. The United States

MR. KUMIEGA:

would like to call Dr. Bugg. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Who? Dr. Bugg, your Honor. JAMES BUGG, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION B-U-G-G.

Sir, for the record, could you state your name, please? James H. Bugg. Sir, what do you do for a living? I'm a chiropractic physician. Where do you office out of, please? At 2821 Northwest 57th in Oklahoma City. And how long have you been at that office? I've been at that office for approximately six years. And how long have you been a chiropractor? Approximately 20 years. And do you know Mr. Friesen? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Yes, I do. And can you tell the jury how you know him, please?

830

I first met him through a patient that had hired him, an

automobile accident patient, who had hired him and came to me for treatment. Q. A. Q. All right. And how long ago was that?

Around '94, '96. All right. And then was there a period of time that you

and Mr. Friesen conversed about firearms? A. Yes, sir. Just off and on visited about firearms. Is

that what you're asking me? Q. A. Q. Excuse me? I'm sorry. What were you asking?

Was there a time you and Mr. Friesen became acquainted

about -- regarding firearms? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. guns? A. Either he or I mentioned firearms. I commented on his I said that's a .357, And I think Yes, sir. As a mutual interest.

You are both enthusiasts regarding firearms? I'm sorry, what? You are both enthusiasts regarding firearms? Yes, sir. And how did this relationship begin, please, about the

address being a 357, in his old office.

common ammo used by police, and he said yes.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 that's how it started. Q. And we just visited about firearms.

831

Dr. Bugg, was there ever a time that you tried to

purchase a machine gun from Mr. Friesen? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Have you had multiple purchases of guns from him? Not multiple. Two or three times.

What type of guns did you purchase? Okay. I purchased first a National Firearms Act Ingram

-- excuse me -- Cobray Mac 11 automatic weapon from him. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. And how long ago was that?

Around 1996. Okay. And what other type of firearms did you buy?

I tried -- I tried to purchase some firearms from him a It didn't work out.

few years ago that just went to crap. Q. Okay.

The first -- you said the first gun, you said you

bought one machine gun from him prior to 2000; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. All right. And then subsequently, you engaged in

conversation with Mr. Friesen about purchasing another machine gun; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, I did. What type of machine gun did you want to buy from him,

please? A. I called him to ask what he might still have for sale,

because I had sold mine, I had had major surgery and had to B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. sell it.

832

I sold it to a gentleman who is in law enforcement.

And he said he had what's called a mini Uzi, micro Uzi pistol, and he said he had a suppressor for it, a silencer. And he

said that he had a gun that's called a Sten machine gun. Q. All right. And -Your Honor, may I approach the witness? Yes. This has been marked, Mr. Bugg, as Have you seen this before?

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

(By Mr. Kumiega)

Government's Exhibit 3.16. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I have.

When did you first see that firearm, please? In his office. All right. It's one of the weapons he told me about.

And is that the type of firearm you wanted to

purchase? A. I believed it was at the time. He told me that it was a

World War II relic-type machine gun made very cheaply to be dropped behind the French lines in World War II. for less than $4. Q. All right. Did he describe the type of firearm it was? It was made

Did he say what brand it was? A. Q. A. Yes. He said it was Bren machine gun.

Excuse me? A Bren machine gun, a Sten that was manufactured by the

British dropped behind the lines at World War II, it's an antique firearm. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Did he say to you -- let me ask you this: Did he say

833

this was an authentic Sten machine gun from World War II? A. Yes, sir, he did. MR. MARTIN: not to lead. Your Honor, could we just ask Mr. Kumiega

I object. Will be sustained. Describe the gun again for the jury,

THE COURT:

(By Mr. Kumiega)

how he tried to portray the gun for you, Mr. Bugg. A. He said that it's very cheaply made, so, therefore, very

cheap-looking, and it's a collector item, and I remember seeing in magazines or read an article years ago about these weapons. And -- and -- pardon me -- he said that this is one of the weapons, it's an official one of the guns that was dropped behind the lines. Q. All right. Now, you were going to buy that Sten, and you

were going to buy another machine gun; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Micro Uzi. Was there another firearm you were going to

purchase? A. Q. No, sir. I'm sorry. Was there another NFA weapon you were

Let me ask you:

going to purchase? A. Q. A. No. There was a suppressor. What's a suppressor?

Okay.

A silencer. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Okay. That's a weapon; is that correct? I'm sorry. It is.

834

Yes, sir. Okay.

And you were going to buy that also; is that

correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes, sir. So how many guns were you going to buy from Mr. Friesen? That would have been three. Three guns. And what was going to be the total price? I don't remember exactly. Probably

It was around 3800.

right now I'm having some problems with sinuses, I've taken some medicine, so I'm having trouble speaking. Q. A. Q. You were going to buy three firearms. Around 3800. And was there a way the firearm was broken down how much How much again?

each one was worth individually? A. Q. No. Okay. Now, about what time, sir, did you consummate

this, or did you reach a meeting of minds when you were going to purchase the gun, please? A. It was November or December of -- I believe it's in the I don't have it in front of me.

paperwork. Q. A. Q. A.

December -- November, December, what year? Three years ago, four years ago. Okay. Is this around here, February of 2004? Yes.

Yes, sir.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And did you apply or did Mr. -- was there

835

something about transfer paperwork that you were going to work on, please? A. Yes, sir. First, I filled out the paperwork for the ATF,

and I paid and I bought three $200 cashier's checks. Q. A. Okay. That's for each of the firearms? For each tax stamp out in the open. And I

Yes, sir.

gave him a check for the weapons, and the three -- and the three $200 separate cashier's checks to be mailed to the ATF along with the fingerprint card and all the paperwork that I'm supposed to fill out for a Class 3 firearm. Q. And how soon after -- how soon after February 2004 did

you give the -- pay for the transfer fees? A. Q. A. Q. I don't remember, sir. All right. I'm sorry.

Did you ever get the guns?

No, sir, I did not. All right. Tell the jury the story behind not getting

the firearms, please. A. I called -- I called Mr. Friesen a little while later, a

month or two later, month and a half, two months later, and he said that -- he said something to the effect that I'm going to have to come back down, that when -- on his computer when he pulled up these firearm papers that it was not correct, in other words, it was not filled out on both sides as they are supposed to be. So I had to go through and fill out, and do

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

836

new paperwork, go back down to the sheriff's office like I had done before, get my background investigation, get it okayed by the sheriff's department, and signed by Mr. Whetsel, and then bring it back to him and we would try it again. Q. A. Q. All right. Do you, in fact, do that?

Yes, sir, I did. And how long did that take before you floated the new

application? A. Q. A. Two or three months, something like that. All right. Okay. And what happens next? What's the next --

Again, contacted him, he said something to the

effect, well, it's taking a while because of this, you know, September 11th thing, they are real slow about doing these transactions, mountains of paperwork, terrorist activities. That was the excuse or reason he gave me for it taking a while again. Q. All right. When is the next time you heard from Mr.

Friesen about the machine gun you tried to purchase? A. Q. A. I don't remember exactly when. All right. What did he say about it then? That's when I

He said it was going to take a while.

decided to put a trace on these firearms through the national ATF phone number that I -- and I called myself. Q. All right. And based on the information you received,

what did you do next, Dr. Bugg, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

837

I just -- I waited for something to happen, and then I

was contacted by the ATF to come down and have a meeting with them. Q. All right. Did you ever receive a letter from Mr.

Friesen regarding why you're not getting the Sten machine gun? A. Yes, I did. I'm sorry. My wife, who is an attorney,

made a demand on him, or it's called a demand, just asking him that we would like our money back if we're not going to get the weapons. And he wrote a letter back, and I believe I kept it

and gave it to the ATF, stating something to the effect that, he made it try to look like I was trying to force his hand about getting the weapon when the paperwork has not come back, and that's not what I was asking him. I was asking either give He said the ATF had

me the weapons or give me back my money.

seized one of the guns, the Sten, and that he said it was due to a foul-up on the serial number, or something like that, he said. Q. All right. Did he give you another, any deeper

explanation regarding the foul-up on the serial number? A. Q. No, sir, he did not. All right. As you're sitting here today, Dr. Bugg, did

you ever receive the gun, the machine gun? A. Q. A. No, sir. Did you ever receive your money back? No, sir. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Okay.

838

During your conversations about the Sten machine

gun that you were going to purchase, did you tell him why you wanted a Sten machine gun? A. Q. A. Yes. What did you say to him, please? Well, my father-in-law is 96 and he's a World War II vet, But as a

he was actually kind of old to be in World War II.

bonding thing with him, he lives three blocks away, I'm very close to him, I wanted -- I was excited to get to show him something that I thought was a relic from World War II and share it with him. And I don't have a gun collection anymore, And

I sold it after two surgeries, I sold my guns that I had. I was just wanting a collection, just something of an investment. Q. A. Q. All right. Yes, I did. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: the agent. THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Kumiega) Yes. Did you tell Mr. Friesen that?

Your Honor, if I may have a moment with

You said, Dr. Bugg, that you signed

paperwork to get the gun transferred to you; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Who did you give that paperwork to? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. To Doug Friesen.

839

Do you know, did he ever say to you why the paperwork was

not completed? A. Q. No. Okay. Can you look at Government's Exhibit 1.9. And, Agent, if you can show --

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

One-point what? 1.9, your Honor. Dr. Bugg, are you familiar with that

MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega)

document? A. Q. No, sir. Okay. Can you slip open the page, please? Do you

remember the serial number of the firearm that you were going to purchase, the Sten machine gun? A. Q. A. 6 -- E683. E683? I believe so. I wrote it -- I've written it down on some

other paperwork. off here. Q.

This is not my writing, but I'm reading it

Let's look at Government's Exhibit No. 5, some documents

that you provided to us, please. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Agent, if you can show him that, please. Doctor, are you familiar with

Government's Exhibit 5.0? A. Yes, sir, I am. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. What are those, please?

840

They are applications for tax transfer for registration

of the National Firearms Act. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. And for what firearm, please?

This particular one is for the Sten Mark II machine gun. All right. Is E683. All right. Did you make a mistake writing it down, And the serial number, please?

please? A. Q. A. I sure did. Tell the jury about that. Okay. His office was dark, and as a matter of pride, I

finally started wearing magnifying glasses, and I wrote one number different on my check. Q. It was just an accident.

And did you subsequently write the check for the right

number? A. Q. A. Q. jury. A. Yes. Or did you correct that at a later date? I corrected it at a later date. Yes, sir. Summarize that for the

What is Government's Exhibit 5.0? What is that, please?

This is an application that you make in order to buy a It's one of the most, I suppose,

National Firearms Act weapon.

one of the most open things you can do in this world under the full auspices and eyes of any government agency to purchase a B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 National Firearms Act weapon. As long as you have a clean

841

background record, which I do, and this is a legal matter, this allows you to buy, to purchase that weapon. It was an

application that the ATF then can either turn you down or approve of you buying this weapon, is my understanding. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. 5.1. A. Q. A. Okay. What is that, please? That's the letter that I was talk -- telling you about All right. Yes, I did. And who did you give that document to, please? To Larry Douglas Friesen. Okay. Did the ATF ever approve or reject your document? Did you sign that document?

I neither received an approval or a rejection. All right. If you would look at Government's Exhibit

earlier -Q. A. All right. -- in our conversation. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United

States would move for the introduction of Government's Exhibit 5.0 and 5.1. MR. MARTIN: objection. THE COURT: To 5.1? Your Honor, may we approach? I have an

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Here. Mr. Martin. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: To 5.1. The stickies on the bottom? Yes, sir.

842

The Court will sustain the objection as to

that and admit 5.0 and 5.1 with the stickies that Mr. Bugg put on, that Dr. Bugg put on the bottom, if you'll delete those before you show them on the -MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: Yes, sir. Your Honor, if I might say, there is also

a copy of that in 5.0, the very same letter with, like, the next to the last page of 5.0. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: It's not in my copy of 5.0. It's in mine, your Honor. I just want to

make sure it's not in there. MR. KUMIEGA: If Mr. Martin could show me which

exhibit he has a problem with I'll obviously redact it. THE COURT: Do you have 5.1? Yes. Will you hand it to me?

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Hand it to the clerk here.

Mr. Kumiega, there's copy of that letter in 5.0 also. MR. KUMIEGA: I'm getting ready to check it out, your

I've seen that, your Honor. We'll stand at ease just a minute, ladies

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please? Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Can you read that into the record, Q. A. Q. and gentlemen of the jury.

843

You can stand and stretch just a

minute while we get our exhibits straightened out here. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) MR. KUMIEGA: It was just in my copy, Judge, I guess. Ready? Yes, your Honor. Dr. Bugg -Again, your Honor, the United States

would move for introduction of Government's Exhibit 5.1 into evidence. THE COURT: They are admitted with the objection

sustained in relation to the stickies that were on the letter. MR. KUMIEGA: I can proffer to the Court, your Honor,

those stickies have been removed. THE COURT: They've been removed? Yes, sir.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

5.0 and 5.1 is now admitted. Can you show Exhibit 5.1, please? Is that the letter that you received?

MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Yes. MR. KUMIEGA:

Will you highlight the first paragraph,

please, the first paragraph? A. "Ms. Fortune: Of the three items your husband

purchased, two of them, the Uzi and the silencer, are B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. at my home waiting for the transfer papers.

844 The third

item, a Sten machine gun, is in the possession of the ATF as a result of some confusion with another Sten gun, which I have never had." Now, did you take any further action after you, after you

received that letter, sir? A. Q. No, sir. All right. So at this point, you don't have a machine

gun or any machine gun? A. Q. A. Q. No, sir. And how much money are you out? 3800. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: No other questions, your Honor.

Mr. Martin, I think we're going to take

our break for lunch, if this is the appropriate time. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: I'll not argue, Judge. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we're

going to recess for lunch, and we'll reconvene at one o'clock. I do have another matter to take up with the attorneys over the lunch hour, so hopefully, we'll be finished with that before one. But again, I would admonish you, give you the same

admonishment I gave you before to not discuss the testimony or the evidence among yourselves or reach any conclusion until I've instructed you on the law at the conclusion of the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

845 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 evidence. With that, we'll be in recess until one p.m. while the jury exits. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: Dr. Bugg, you'll be excused until 1 p.m, I'll advise you during the recess All rise

we'll resume your testimony.

you're not to discuss your testimony with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes, sir.

You may be excused.

Ready to resume our Daubert hearing, Mr. Kumiega? MR. KUMIEGA: cross-examination. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Do we have our witnesses? Your Honor, after this hearing I'm going I think I think Mr. Martin was doing

to need to go downstairs to talk to a witness or two. this case is flying; I'm getting ready to rest. I was

wondering if you can indulge the government, it will make the presentation a little quicker if I can talk with Mr. Ladd and his attorney before he takes the stand to admonish him not to talk about some of concerns that Mr. Martin raised in one of his motions regarding statements that should not be admitted. And I would like to have a couple of minutes, if possible, to visit with that. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

846 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Also, your Honor, we have another collateral hearing regarding Ms. LeMaster or Ms. Dennis. The United States filed So

a motion late last night regarding a use immunity hearing. I think there is going to be a couple of things we have to address before the United States continues. THE COURT: LeMaster and -MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: Okay. Other witnesses besides Ms.

LeMaster, Ladd, Walbridge, your Honor. There's a possibility, your Honor, the And I'll

government might call Mr. Bobby Hunter, your Honor. visit with that.

And I would like to address the Court about

putting Mr. Knopp on the stand to, for housekeeping measures regarding part of the testimony. And I think we're going to It's going

rest in the next three or four hours, if possible. to be quick, I think.

But I would need time to make sure that That's why I

Mr. Ladd does not pop off and we have a mistrial.

would like to have a couple of minutes to visit with him, your Honor. THE COURT: Well, if we get this cross-examination

concluded on Mrs. Walbridge, why, we can, you'll have about an hour to do all these things. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Okay. Thank you, your Honor.

Is Ms. Walbridge here? She's on the way, your Honor. While we're waiting on her, could I

MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

847 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 concern. address those two concerns, your Honor, I had of her testimony? THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Yes. When she does -- assuming, your Honor,

that you rule at the Daubert she's allowed to testify, I have two concerns about her testimony that I wanted to address before she testifies. One is, your Honor, I think it's improper for her to make any statements concerning her tests were based upon statements made by my client, since there is no evidence, information or testimony that he's ever talked to any government agent about anything -THE COURT: So far I never heard anything about her,

during the direct examination I never heard any of that mentioned. MR. MARTIN: Well, it's in her report and that's my The

That's in the report, and that's one concern.

second thing, your Honor, is her tests about stamping and painting and using the same exhibits that the expert Howard Kong, that the paint was on prior to the stamping is cumulative, duplicitous, it's the identical testimony. don't think it -- it hasn't even been challenged yet. And I And for

the government to go over that specific item that the paint was supposedly on the firearm prior to the stamping two times before we even get to put on a case I think is inappropriate and improper and cumulative. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

848 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Thank you, Mr. Martin. Is any of her

testimony going to be based upon alleged statements that the defendant made to somebody? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: background. No.

So that won't be an issue? We'll, just to give the Court the full

The reason the solvent tests were performed is

because we had information through a witness, from Mr. Bobby Hunter, how Mr. Friesen altered or tried to raise, supposedly, the serial number. And that's why in the report of the

interview or report from ATF chemist to do what she did was to show that that, in fact, was impossible to do. The United

States is not going to address that, but I think that's part of the government's presentation that there is a layer of paint, there was nothing ever removed and nothing added. THE COURT: You can do that without any inference or

reference to Mr. Hunter's hearsay testimony? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Of course.

Okay. That's my concern. So that issue is moot.

Is our witness here? Ms. Walbridge, you're under the same oath that you gave when you began your testimony this morning. Mr. Martin, you may cross-examine. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 You may be seated.

Walbridge - Cross - Continued 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. MR. MARTIN: Thank you, your Honor.

849

CONTINUED CROSS-EXAMINATION

Ms. Walbridge, you were testifying about the tests that

you performed, in particular about the stamping of the firearm with some type of die, painted and unpainted. that, ma'am? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And I believe you testified that you actually, you Do you recall

didn't age the paint, right? A. Q. No. Okay. Did you use the -- I mean, you now say you

determined the composition of the coating somehow, you had those charts, right, that determined what kind of composition the paint was? A. Q. Right. The IR spectroscopy.

How do you -- the coating that you put on in these tests,

was that the same chemical composition that was on the firearm? A. No. I wasn't trying to replicate, replicate the firearm I was

in terms of the type of metal or the paint that I used.

simply trying to visually see does the stamping process impact the paint, does it impact it into the impression. Q. A. Q. Okay. So you didn't use the same kind of paint?

I did not. Okay. Did you use any type of metal plates that were,

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Continued Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 say, oh, 20 years old? A. Q. A. I don't know the age of the metal plate that I used. Okay. Yeah. And these were just flat plates, right?

850

It was actually a cover to a circuit breaker box

we had in our laboratory. Q. A. Q. You didn't use any rounded objects, like a barrel? I did not. Okay. So then the test relating to the stamps would have

been used on a different type of -- a different -- I'll try to use the right terminology here -- a flat object versus a round object, and a paint of unknown composition, right? A. Q. Right. Okay. I wasn't replicating anything. So that wasn't comparative analysis of what was --

what we actually had, then? A. The comparative analysis part comes into play of the

question I had was, does the stamping process -- I'm seeing under the microscope with the exhibit that the stamping process physically alters that paint, drives it into the impression. So I just did that, stamped something that was painted -Q. A. Well --- and found that the paint was wedged into the

impression when the paint was applied to the metal and then stamped. And it visually, so visually it looked the same and It's the visual

that's where the comparison comes into play. portion of it.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Continued Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

851

But the -- there are a lot of variables based on that,

based on the lack of uniformity in your experiment; would you agree with that, ma'am? A. I wouldn't agree, because I was just looking at it I used paint, stamping process, that forced the

visually. paint.

It doesn't matter what the material is, per se, I just

found that that paint wedged into the impression, had the similar visual -- visually looked the same as the evidence. Q. A. Q. wood? A. I wouldn't have done it on wood because I was dealing Did you bring those plates with you today? No. Okay. Could you have done the same experiment then on

with metal here. Q. A. Q. Okay. I was trying to have likes, but not replication. Well, likes would be a round tube and the same type of

paint and same type of stamps, would you agree? A. Q. No. That would be complete replication. Would you agree with that, with that

Well, similar.

terminology, "similar"? A. Q. Sure. And there are different hardnesses and thicknesses of

metal, are there not? A. I believe there are, but I'm not a metal expert. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Continued Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

852

Well, that might alter how paint looks after it has been

hit with a die; would you not agree? A. Q. In what way? I don't think I understand your question.

That might alter the way it would look if it had been hit

with a die, how the paint would look in the metal, the hardness, thickness of the metal? A. I think either way the paint is going to be driven into

an impression, whether that impression be made in wood, metal, whatever. I kind of think of it as icing the cake, really nice

and perfectly clean and then having someone come along and stick their finger in it. icing into the cake. They crack the icing, they push the

The material at hand really doesn't

affect my visual exam, what I saw. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor. Anything further, Mr. Kumiega? No, your Honor. I was going to ask if we can admonish May I have just a moment, your Honor? Yes.

MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN:

the witness not to make reference as we did in the limine matter, should you rule she can testify. THE COURT: First of all, based upon Rule 702, the

Court does find that the Ms. Walbridge is an expert and is qualified to render this opinion based upon her knowledge, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

853 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 skill, experience, training, or education. Really, I heard no

challenge to her expertise based upon her testimony and her resume. The Court does find that she does qualify as an expert

under Rule 702. Secondly, under Daubert, the Court does find that Ms. Walbridge's opinion is reliable, that her theories have been tested, they've been subject to peer review. The Court heard

no error, potential for error in her testing, and the Court finds that her methodology is generally accepted in the scientific community. The Court also finds that the, her scientific, technical and specialized knowledge will assist the trier of fact. As

stated, she's qualified in this area, the evidence that she's going to testify to is relevant to the issues connected to this trial, and that the underlying facts upon which her opinion is based is reliable. Ms. Walbridge, based upon the Court's findings, you will be allowed to testify as an expert in this area. You made some

tests, you gave a brief statement as to the reason you made some of your tests were made based upon what an agent told you, that the defendant in this case Mr. Friesen may have told somebody else. The Court is going to sustain the objection to You can give

any mention of why you made certain tests.

results of the tests, but none of the results of the tests are based upon what somebody else may have said or something else. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

854 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 But the Court is going to admonish you not to discuss what some agent told you that somebody else told him that Mr. Friesen may have said or may have done something. So I understand that,

from your testimony, that was the reason why you performed some test was some information you had about what may have been done, so I'm going to admonish you not to give the reason for the test based upon this, but simply the results of your test and how you did it. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Okay.

In other words, any inference or reference

to Mr. Friesen should not be a part of your testimony. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Okay. With that, you may be excused, and

Okay.

we're going to reconvene at one o'clock, so be ready to testify then. Mr. Kumiega, you have another -- the Court is also going to overrule the objection based on it being cumulative, Mr. Martin. You have another motion in front of the Court relating to Terri LeMaster, Terri Dennis, Terri LeMaster. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, your Honor.

Is that a man or woman? Woman.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Your proposed order relates to a him. I apologize, your Honor.

MR. KUMIEGA:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

855 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: That's why I questioned that. Do you want

to take up that motion at this time? it Ms. Dennis? Which is it?

Is it Ms. LeMaster or is

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

It's Ms. Dennis, your Honor. Have you discussed her

Are they here?

testimony with her attorney? MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, they -- I've had some slight I've not

proffer sessions, if you want to call it that. discussed her testimony.

I've not even discussed the And I

procedures basically, she's represented by Jeff Byers. was downstairs prior -THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: I don't know if -THE COURT: Are they here?

They were here this morning, your Honor.

I'll let you -- we'll take a break until

about 12:45, and I'll let you visit, have an opportunity to visit with her and him and, if they are available. If they are

unavailable would you -- we'll just deal with it when they are after lunch, I guess. MR. KUMIEGA: And I still need to talk to Mr. Ladd to

make sure there is no violation, the concern that I also have and you have and Mr. Martin has. THE COURT: Well, we'll just -- when would you

anticipate calling Ms. LeMaster? MR. KUMIEGA: I think towards the end of the day,

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

856 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Judge. THE COURT: Okay. Well, we can wait and take up that We'll just

issue then at an afternoon break or something.

reconvene, be in recess until one p.m., and you make sure Mr. Ladd, you've had an opportunity to visit with him. said you may call Mr. Hunter? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, your Honor. And I also just talked And you

to Mr. Knopp, Ms. Johnson's husband, Annette Johnson who just testified, she could not identify the guns. We got ahold of

her husband and we would like to put him on testifying under oath that those guns are his. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, they are in evidence. I

haven't raised -- that's not going to be an issue in the trial. I'll tell you that. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: guns, your Honor. THE COURT: Okay. That takes care of it. Can you just stipulate those guns are his? We will stipulate that those are his

We'll be in recess until one p.m., and get that stipulation entered and when we come back, you can enter that stipulation into the record. We'll be in recess until one p.m.

(A recess was had, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: We're missing a witness, Mr. Kumiega.

Dr. Bugg, if you would retake the witness stand, please, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Is it Dr. Bugg or Mr. Bugg? Either, sir. Okay.

857

and the Court will remind you you're under the same oath as you were when you gave your testimony this morning. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Yes, sir.

You may cross-examine. Thank you, your Honor. CROSS-EXAMINATION

You're a chiropractor, a licensed chiropractor?

Yes, sir. Okay. It's my understanding that you had met Doug years

ago because you had had a patient that apparently was a client of his and that's how you first met him? A. Q. Yes, sir. And that in that process through a conversation using the

words 357 you found out that the two of you both were firearms enthusiasts, right? A. Q. I believe so. Yes.

And I think you testified that you had years earlier,

probably in '96 or so, if you know, correct me if that date is wrong, but sometime in the '90s had purchased a machine gun from him; is that right? A. What I do with my patients is before I talk to them I

have a file, and I was thinking at noon if when you ask me a B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

858

question if I could look at a piece of paper that actually had that time, then I could then tell you an exact date. that would work better, sir, if I could. Q. Well, I'm not asking for an exact date, but I'll show you I think

something that's been provided to me by the government and ask you if that appears to be the firearm that you purchased from Mr. Friesen, and I think that's -A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. '96. In May of 1996? That is. And do you recall what kind of gun that was? A Mac 11. A Mac 11? Uh-huh. Is that an automatic firearm, sir? Yes, sir. Okay. And after that, I'm assuming for a period of time

you had contact with Mr. Friesen off and on; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And then I understand that you didn't really have any

contact with him for a period of time, but contacted him sometime around 2003 about whether or not he had certain firearms that might be available to you? A. Q. I believe that was the date. Okay. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Yes. Yes.

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Like in November or something of 2003. Of 2003.

859

And I'm not trying to trick you up on the date,

and I don't have a piece of paper to show you on that one. A. Q. A. Q. Okay, sir. That's to the best of my knowledge.

So did you talk to him on the phone, did you go see him? I called him on the phone. Okay. And then you all made arrangements to visit at his

office? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Okay. And you went into his law offices; is that right?

Yes, sir. And you're familiar with that office, are you not? Fairly well. That's the one on 13th and Classen? Yes. And he has a personal office, does he not, sir? Yes. And that's upstairs? Second floor, I believe. Yes.

And that's where you were, is it not, sir? Yes. There by his desk or somewhere in his personal office? Yes. In front of his desk.

In front of his desk? Uh-huh. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay.

860

Now, that was sometime after November of 2003; is

that right? A. Q. Yes. As a matter of fact, is the day that you saw the firearm

the day you purchased the firearm, or did you go back on another occasion? A. I went -- I believe, I believe I went back on another

occasion. Q. Okay. So you show up and you see the firearm, and you go

think about it or something, and then you come back on another occasion? A. How much time lapsed between? I may have purchased it then. I

Sir, I don't remember.

may have given him the check then, we had agreed upon a price, I may have paid it then. Q. I'm sorry, I don't remember exactly. I'm not trying to -- so you just

I'm just asking you.

don't remember; would that be fair, sir? A. Q. That would be fair, sir. You know you went there, you know you saw it, you know

you eventually bought it or may have even bought it that day? A. Q. Exactly. Okay. And in front of you, sitting right in front of you Is this the

is a firearm, it's Government's Exhibit 3.16.

firearm that you saw the day you were in Doug Friesen's office? A. Q. May I examine it? Yes, sir. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes. Okay. This is one of them.

861

You actually on that day, whatever day, whenever

you were there, purchased also another machine gun and a suppressor or silencer, right? A. Q. Yes, sir. And that day that you were there, you wrote him a check,

didn't you? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And then I think you testified that you didn't get

the firearm and you were first instructed that there was some problems with the way the paperwork had been prepared and you had to redo the paperwork, correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. And then after another inquiry you were told that there

was problems because of 9/11 and the transfer process with the ATF was slowed down or something, right? A. Q. Possibly. Okay. Yes.

Then I believe you testified that a letter was

sent to Doug, I guess on your -- by your wife for you? A. Q. Yes. And I think that's Government's Exhibit 5.1, that letter,

right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. MR. MARTIN: Do we have that letter?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. Q. A. Q. (By Mr. Martin)

862

Mr. Kumiega, you recall, had you read

the top portion of that letter, right? A. Yes, sir. MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) Yes. Excuse me. Can we highlight the bottom portion? Can you read that for us, please? This part of the letter is the one that

kind of angered me because it tried to make me sound like I'm demanding a gun on him. Q. I asked you a question, sir. Can you read the bottom

portion -A. Q. A. I believe I can. -- and then I'll ask you more questions, okay? Okay. "You can make all the demands which you want. I

don't control the ATF's time schedule and I'm not going to break any laws by giving your husband these guns prior to the ATF authorizing the transfer. As soon as the transfer papers come through or rejection of same, I will transfer to Dr. Bugg either the guns or money depending on what the ATF approves. Sincerely, Doug Friesen." Okay. And -That's all with that. You understand, do you not, sir, that it

MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin)

is unlawful for him to give you those firearms prior to the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 approval by the ATF? A. Q. Of course. Okay. Yes, sir.

863

And you, in this particular case, you had written

that check, as a matter of fact, I think, wasn't it on January 30th, 2004? A. Q. Do you recall that, sir?

If I can see the check I can verify the exact date. That's what I'm going to do. I'm going to go to Exhibit Can you see the date

5, I think it's Exhibit 5, second page. at the top? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes.

Is that January 30th, 2004, or '04? Yes, sir. Okay. Yes. And you don't have any reason to believe that's not the And that would be 2004, right?

accurate date, do you, sir? A. Q. No. The reason I ask you that is because the government has

made a chart over here and on this chart they've put down that you bought this gun in February of 2004. We don't have any

reason to think that date is wrong, do we? A. Well, no. You know, that's when I tried to purchase the

gun, a day or two later is February of 2004, so it's what I assume happened. Q. I'm not sure. You have no reason to think

I guess what my question is:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

864

that you would have written an incorrect date on your check, do you? A. Q. No, sir. Okay. Now, there are three items on this, there's a

serial number for what looks like an Uzi? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Do you see the U-Z-I, then a serial number? Yes. Then there's a serial number, I think that stands for

suppressor written above it? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And then there's a Sten -Yes. -- a serial number written for the Sten. Do you see

that, sir? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that Sten serial number is E687, correct? Yes. And the Sten you were trying to buy was E683, right? Yes. Okay. And as a matter of fact, you testified before the

grand jury in this matter? A. Q. Yes, that I made a mistake. Well, you testified before the grand jury in this matter;

is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. I believe so. Yeah.

865

As a matter of fact, prior to you testifying, Mr.

Kumiega gave you immunity for your testimony, didn't he, sir? A. Q. I believe so. I don't know. I'm not sure.

Do you remember Mr. Kumiega telling you that if you admit

any crimes under oath or -- you're going to get immunity? A. Q. I believe I heard those words. Okay. Yes.

And in your testimony before the grand jury, you

were questioned about that serial number written on your check, were you not, sir? A. Q. Yes. And you told the grand jury under oath that Doug's

personal office that you were in on the second floor, that it was dark in his office, and I didn't have these with me? A. Q. Right. And you hold up, I'm assuming, a pair of glasses like

what I have in my hand? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you couldn't see the number clearly? Correct. Is that correct? And that may have been why I put the wrong number. Okay. Now, so there's two reasons then. Number one, it

was dark in his office; is that right? A. I believe so. Yes. I know it was dark in his office.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Not very good lighting? Correct. And number two, you, like me, sometimes need a little

866

help for seeing up close or seeing far away? A. Q. Up close and far away too. Okay. Both kinds.

Now, you understand, sir, that -- well, let me ask you if you understand, sir, that the parts on a Sten firearm are all authentic parts except for the receiver. that, sir? A. Q. I do not know that. Okay. Do you know whether or not you could bring, import Do you understand

a receiver into the United States on a Sten machine gun, sir? A. Q. I do not know that. Okay. And I assume because you went back to Mr. Friesen

for these other three NFA firearms we've talked about, the Uzi, suppressor and the Sten, that you had no problems whatsoever with Mr. Friesen in May of 1996 when you bought that other firearm. A. Q. A. Q. No, sir. No, sir, you had no problems? I had no problems. So on January 30th of 2004, you didn't have any Except for the light

difficulty -- well, let me rephrase that.

and the lack of glasses, you didn't have any difficulty B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 identifying that there was a serial number on that firearm? A. Q. A. Q. No. Okay. I made a mistake somehow. I don't know if --

867

I'm not asking you about that, but you saw a serial

number? A. Q. A. Yes. You might not have seen it correctly? Or I might not have written it correctly. I'm not sure

which one I did, but I did make a mistake and I did rescind that. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You did what? I'm sorry?

I did rescind that and I did correct that. What do you mean "rescind" it? State that I made a mistake on the number. Oh, oh. Yes. You didn't sign some document or anything? No. I understand that. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor. Redirect? Thank you, your Honor. You mean through the testimony?

MR. KUMIEGA:

Bugg - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. REDIRECT EXAMINATION

868

Dr. Bugg, Mr. Martin said that it would be illegal for

you to take the gun before ATF approved the transfer; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, sir. In fact, Mr. Friesen couldn't even loan you the gun to

try it out; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. That was my understanding. And did he tell you that? Yes. Okay. Now, when you were in the grand jury, did you Yes.

admit to any crimes? A. Q. No. Okay. You don't know if it's a formality or not by the

government; is that correct? A. Q. I'm sorry? What, sir?

You don't know if that statement is a formality or not by

the United States? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Correct. I don't.

But you did not admit any crimes; is that correct? Correct. Now, you said it was dark in the office; is that correct? Yes. And you wrote down the wrong -- one of the numbers wrong; B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. The last number. Yes.

869

So you wrote down the E right? Yes. You wrote down the 6 right? Yes. You wrote down the 8 right? Yes. And you missed the last one; is that right? Yes. Now, did Mr. Friesen ever point to you, point out the

part number? A. Q. No. Okay. Take a look at the gun that you wanted to buy. That's the gun; is that right? Do

you see that? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes.

And you see a magazine well? Yes. Do you know what that is? Yes. What is that from your own understanding, please? That's where you put the magazine that holds the stacked

nine millimeter shells. Q. A. Can you see a little number in there? There appears to be some kind of a number, several B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 there. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) All right. numbers here. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. Yes. All right. Why don't you read them for the record. Can you read them?

870

Looks like an L, and an R. All right. And then a D95843. All right. And then down below that is A, L and then a 254. All right. Let me ask you this: How did you know, sir,

that that was the serial number that belonged to that gun? A. Q. A. Q. I'm sorry? What?

How did you know that serial number went to that gun? I assumed that was a part number. All right. How did you know that serial number went to

the gun? A. Q. I assumed since it was on here. All right. Could you see it clearly enough? Excuse me. Are you talking about the

THE COURT: number he just read?

MR. KUMIEGA: THE WITNESS:

The serial number, your Honor. It's not very clear but, I mean, it's

Did anyone point out that

serial number to you? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Bugg - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 minute? (Mr. Kumiega leaves the courtroom) THE COURT: not here. (Mr. Kumiega returns) THE COURT: You had a question, sir? Yes. A. Q. A. Doug did. What did he say? Said that's the serial number of the gun. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. No questions.

871

Dr. Bugg, you may be excused, and I would

advise you you're not to discuss your testimony you've given here today with any other persons who may be a witness in this matter. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes, sir.

You may be excused.

Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the United States would like

to call Sarah Walbridge. Judge, I think there's a slight confusion. way up here now. THE COURT: another witness. MR. KUMIEGA: No, your Honor. May I be excused for a We'll stand at ease unless you have She's on her

Can't say anything, the attorney is

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. funny. (An off-the-record discussion was had at the bench:) SARAH WALBRIDGE, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION JUROR:

872

May I request a two- or three-minute break? Yes. We'll just take about a -- we'll

THE COURT:

just stand at ease for about five minutes while the jury is excused to go to the jury assembly room. at ease for about five minutes. All rise while the jury exits. jury assembly room. (The jury exits the courtroom.) THE COURT: We'll be in recess for about five minutes. You need to go down to the So we'll just stand

(A recess was had, after which the following was had in open court:) MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may I approach? Be seated. Your Honor, something off the record. Mr. I

want to tell you why there is a little delay, that's all. Martin can hear it. THE COURT: Something funny, that's all.

Well, I guess I need to hear something

Ma'am, can you introduce yourself to the jury, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. My name is Sarah, S-A-R-A-H, Walbridge,

873

W-A-L-B-R-I-D-G-E. Q. A. And how are you currently employed, please? Since June of 2004, I'm a forensic chemist with the

Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, & Explosives, forensic science laboratory in Walnut Creek, California. Q. A. What's the nature of your work? My specialty is trace evidence. Examples of trace

evidence include hairs, fibers, paints, and then other items that don't fit into the other disciplines in our laboratory. Q. Can you tell the jury the other disciplines that comprise

your laboratory, please? A. Yes. Fingerprint laboratory, a firearms and toolmarks

section, arson section, and explosives section, and then the trace section. Q. Prior to working for ATF, what was your work experience,

if you can give the jury a sense of that? A. For two years I worked for a company called Microtrace in My title was inspector microscopist and I was

Illinois.

looking at trace evidence as well. Q. A. What is trace evidence? Trace evidence is, again, examples of trace evidence are

hairs, fiber, paint, anything that really needs a microscope to look at. Q. It's a pretty small thing.

What is your formal educational background, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I have a bachelor's in chemistry from Elby College in

874

Elby, Michigan, and a master's in forensic science from Michigan State University. Q. And what field of forensic science, is there a particular

branch of forensic science you got your education, your master's degree in, please? A. Q. The master's degree is general. All right. Have you received any specialized training

and/or experience in your scientific field, please? A. I have received training, in-service training with ATF,

from other qualified examiners, as well as taking a plethora of courses given at scientific meetings or given by colleges. Q. Are you a member of any professional organizations

related to your field? A. I'm a member of the American Academy of Forensic

Scientists, the Midwestern Association of Forensic Scientists, the California Association of Criminalists. Q. And do you have any particular or individual

certifications in your field also? A. I do. I'm certified, I'm a fellow, a trace analysis

hairs and fibers fellow with the American Board of Criminalists. Q. A. And what does that mean? Certification for forensics, it's similar to board My certification means that I passed an

certified if a doctor.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 extensive exam on hairs and fibers and that I work for a

875

laboratory full-time performing case work in that discipline, and that to keep my certification I have to take yearly proficiencies. Q. Ma'am, let me ask you this: Is your laboratory in

California, is it specially certified by some type of certification, I guess, group here in the United States? A. Yes. The board certification for forensic labs in the

United States is done by the America Society of Crime Lab Directors. The acronym that we use is ASCLD Lab. And our

laboratory is accredited by ASCLD Laboratories. Q. You were tasked to analyze a certain exhibit for your

testimony today; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. In front of you is Government's Exhibit 3.16. Can you

identify that, please? A. I can identify this. My name is right here on the

evidence identification tag. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. And does that firearm look familiar to you? Yes.

It does look familiar.

Is that the gun that you worked on? This is the gun I worked on. Can you tell the jury roughly, in summary fashion, and

we'll get into more detail, what type of tests, what type of analysis you were looking for when you were getting ready to B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 actually do the scientific work on the firearm? A.

876

I was asked to examine some markings that consisted of

the letter E followed by the three numbers 683 that were on the firearm. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I was asked to look at the coating. And did you, in fact, do that?

All right. I did.

And how long did it take you to do this analysis, please? I would have to reference my notes on that. All right. Let me ask you this then: Coupled with that,

did you generate a body of notes or reports associated with your analysis? A. I did. I generated a body of notes, photographs, and a

final report associated with my exam. Q. If you can give the jury a rough estimate of how much

time it took you to compile your reports and examine the firearm, please? A. Q. A. If I could reference my notes -Sure. -- to kind of look at the dates. I do multiple casework

so lots of things come up. consecutively. Q. All right.

I don't necessarily do it

Roughly about five working, full working days. Does that include all the examinations you

were tasked to do; is that correct? A. Q. That does, yes. All right. Can you tell the jury what examinations you

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

877

were tasked to do or you, in fact, did, that you, in fact, did in this case, please? A. Okay. I examined the firearm under a microscope. A

microscope is simply just a series of lenses that helps us magnify an object so we can see the fine detail of that object. So during my examination of the markings E683, I could see that there was a single layer of black paint present surrounding those markings, and I could also see that the stamping process had physically altered the paint and wedged it into the impressed markings. Q. All right. So that's one analysis you did. Was there

another companion analysis you did also? A. In addition to that, I did look at -- I sampled some

paint that was within the impression and compared it to some paint that was adjacent to the impression. I found that they

shared the same elemental composition and chemical composition. So that just indicated to me that the paint was on the firearm prior to this stamping process. Q. All right. And did you do some type of comparative

analysis between -- well, did you also do an experiment regarding the stamp vis-a-vis the paint? A. I did. When I was looking at it under the microscope, as

I said, it appeared as if the stamping process had physically altered that paint and pushed it into the impression. Very

similar to if you nicely iced a cake and someone comes along B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

878

and pushes their finger into it, they poke that icing into the cake, they crack the icing. So I wanted to, you know,

visually, under the microscope, it appeared as if that paint must have come first, but I wanted to do an experiment to see, you know, would this happen again, does the stamping process really physically alter that. So what I did is I just took a metal plate that we had at our lab, and just took a piece of masking tape, put it down the middle. it. On one side I stamped it first and then painted over

On the other side I painted the metal first, let the paint What I found was that process of

dry, and then stamped it.

painting it first and then stamping it visually appeared very similar to the exhibit. The other, where I stamped it first There was no It just

and painted, looked completely different.

alteration to the paint, it was smooth surface. visually didn't even look the same. Q. A.

Did you also do some type of work with solvents? I did. I did some solubility tests. I used some common

solvents to see if there possibly was ever a coating removed from this area. And I found that, to me, there was no

indication of any type of solution or solvent being used to remove the coating surrounding the impressed markings. Q. Now, Ms. Walbridge, did you prepare a series of

photographs for your forensic, I guess, testimony today? A. I did for my case notes. During my examination I did

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 take photographs. Q. Yes.

879

What I've presented to you for identification purposes at Can you take each,

this time is Government's Exhibit No. 10.

take your time and look at each of those photographs and related comments, and is that your handiwork, please? A. Q. This is my work, yes. These are photographs that I took.

And this is for your preparation for your testimony

today; is that correct? A. Actually, I took these photographs as part of my That's something that I like to do. All of our

examination.

case notes and our analysis and reports is peer-reviewed by another qualified examiner, so this helped that examiner see what I was seeing. And I also documented the evidence as well

as documenting anything I may have done to the evidence. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United

States would move into evidence Government's Exhibit No. 10, the photographs taken by Ms. Walbridge. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, in light of my earlier

objection, I've got to object. THE COURT: be admitted. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Ma'am, if we look at the first series Okay. Objection will be overruled. Will

of photographs, if you can look at No. 10, the first photograph, what is that, please? A. This is a photograph not taken under the microscope, so B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we call these macro photographs, showing the evidence as it came into the evidence laboratory. is what the evidence looked like. Q. A. All right.

880

When I unpackaged it this

Let's look at the next photograph, please.

This is a similar photograph, again, a macro photograph

of the impressed markings. Q. Is it important, ma'am, or can you tell the jury why you

had a ruler above the numbers, please, above the purported serial number? A. We have protocol, standard operation procedures for

handling evidence in our laboratory, and one of them is at any time that it's physically possible to put a ruler in the photograph we need to put the ruler in the photograph. Q. Next page, please. Again, that's your photograph; is

that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. That's correct. And is that your initials that appear here? Yes. SW.

And who is HK, please? Howard Kong. He's a firearms examiner for our

laboratory. Q. And you took this at ten times magnification; is that

correct? A. That's correct. What that means is the -- it's not a So this is

true magnification, because the camera is on top.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q.

881

actually a photograph taken under the microscope, it's not a macro photograph. So if I was viewing it under the eyepieces

it's a little different than with the camera not being an eyepiece. Q. So it's not true mag but it's roughly mag. Yes.

Let's look at the next photograph, please.

Now, Mr. Kong

testified regarding this before, and we don't want go over it again, but you used this photograph to explain what you did in this -- in a different analysis; is that correct? A. This is a photograph taken under the microscope, so

essentially it's a photograph documenting what I saw under the microscope where I saw that the black painting -- paint, excuse me, was wedged into the impression, and I believe in Adobe Photo Shop used an arrow to kind of point to that. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) That's, yes. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Let's go to the next one. Now, we'll talk about your solubility Next photograph, please. All right. Is this your work here?

studies.

Can you explain to the jury what the purpose of this

test was and what you did, please? A. The purpose of the solubility test was to determine

whether the black paint was soluble in anything, and also to visually examine what the results of that solubility test would look like. So I used some common solvents. Ethyl alcohol, we

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 please? Q. Q. A. have that in our cabinets at home; acetone is nail polish remover. Now, Fry's Reagent we don't have.

882

That's actually a

solution used by firearms examiners to restore serial numbers, so that was sort of applicable to this case. And this is a photograph -- it's not -- well, actually, it's pretty good on that screen, showing the results of that solubility. So solubility is essentially, does something And from the results,

completely dissolve in something else.

the ethyl alcohol, the black paint was just partially soluble. In acetone, it completely came up and you could see all the way down to the metal of the firearm, and the Fry's Reagent, no paint was soluble on the Fry's Reagent. So I was just

documenting my test with these photographs Q. A. Q. And "solubility" means dissolving; is that correct? Yes, it means dissolving. And you came -MR. KUMIEGA: (By Mr. Kumiega) Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: Can you go to the next photograph, Let's go to the next photograph. This is your handiwork here?

Let's go back to the last one. How long did it take you to do these

(By Mr. Kumiega)

test, can you tell us how you performed them, please? A. The tests didn't take more than an hour or two. It

wasn't a whole day process or anything.

And what I did was I

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

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used clean sterile swabs and saturated each of the swabs with the solvent of choice, and then just rubbed it across the area on the firearm. And then observed, you know, was black paint

coming up, just like we're taking nail polish off of our nails, is it coming off onto the cotton ball we're using, or whatever. So it did partially a little bit with the ethyl alcohol, completely with the acetone, and none at all with the Fry's Reagent. Q. And what conclusion did you reach then regarding the

paint and the use of the solvents to apparently attempt to take off paint? A. Well, this test helped me determine that, back to looking

at the impressed markings E683, there really wasn't any appearance that some sort of solvent or solution was used, because if you can see from that photograph, you know, it looks like something has been colored outside the lines, you can see completely down to the metal. There was no indication of that So that indicated to me that

appearance surrounding the E683.

there was no use of a solution or solvent to uncover that particular marking. Q. Let me ask you this: Did you determine through your

analysis how many layers of paint was on the machine gun, the purported E683? A. Surrounding the E683, I could see under the microscope

that there was a single layer of black paint. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right. When you say single layer of black paint,

884

that means it was just one uniform paint across where, please? A. Q. Across the markings, one single layer of black paint. And what test or what devices did you use or utilize to

aid you in that analysis, please, and conclusion? A. Well, when you're looking at a layer sequence you can

just use a microscope, like I said, that's helping me see the fine detail. So under magnification I could see that there was

one layer present. Q. All right. Did you also do some type of comparison test

for, I guess a comparative analysis between paint in the serial number, as you testified before, and paint outside the serial number? A. Yes, I did. I did a lot of comparative analysis in this

exam, and that was one of them. Q. Before you get into that, can you tell the jury, what is

comparative analysis, and what basis in forensic work it's referenced to, please? A. Comparative analysis is essentially looking at You know, it's problem-solving. We compare things

similarities and differences.

We problem-solve all the day, every day. daily.

It's no different for forensics than comparative

anatomy where someone is comparing cells on a slide to cells, you know, of something known, or if a botanist collects a flower and takes it back to his or her laboratory and is B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

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looking at known specimens to determine is that a new flower or is this, you know, a new species. So with forensics we are just comparing, you know, like similarities and differences between two materials. Q. Now, the comparative analysis you did was that you took

paint from, as you said, from outside of the number and the paint inside the number; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. All right. Let's look at -- what number did you take the

paint from, please? A. Q. I took paint from the number 3. Okay. Is this the one that's displayed for the jury? Is

that where you took the paint? A. Yes. That's the photograph, and the arrow indicates

where I took some paint above, and then there's two arrows below, that's the paint I took adjacent to the impression. Q. All right. Can you show to the jury, if you can point on

the actual machine gun where you took -- you scraped some paint off near the serial number; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. Can you point it out to the jury, please. So I took a scraping there above the 3, and then you and

I both cannot see where I sampled within the 3, but that's reflective of the photograph and that's why, you know, one of the reasons I took the photograph. So within that impression,

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

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that was the paint that was lodged within the impression, and then I collected paint adjacent to the impression. Q. All right. And how many milliliters -- millimeters, I

guess, between the E number the -- the 3 where you plucked out a little piece of paint and where you sampled from the firearm, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. I would have to measure it with a ruler. If you can just guesstimate. I'm really bad at that. Do you have a ruler with you? I do not have a ruler with me. Okay. Okay. Is it kind of close? It's close. Yes. I mean, I sampled it rather close to Then I withdraw the question.

the impression because that would, you know, looking at that E683 and could see that that was all the single layer. So I

wanted to sample pretty close that impression to see, you know, was that paint within the impression similar to the paint adjacent to the impression. Q. All right. And so you get something from that number

here, and then you get something from this paint adjacent; is that correct? A. Q. Correct. And can you tell the jury what procedures you do to make B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

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that comparison and if it's commonly accepted in the forensic field, please, these tests analysis? A. So I used two instruments on the samples. So the first

instrument is called a -- this is big -- Fourier Transform Infrared Spectrometer. Q. A. And it's IR, for short, and --

Is that for infrared? Infrared. Yes. Thank you. What we do is we take

infrared light and we focus it on the sample, and then we measure how much of that light is absorbed by the sample. The

absorbence that we can detect, what's absorbed and what's not, is characteristic to the chemical makeup of the sample. did that for both samples of paint. So I

And went we get a graph

readout that we call a spectra, then I can compare the two spectra. Q. And how long did it take you to run the spectra or that

test, please? A. That probably took a day or two. It all depends, you I have

really need -- there is certain sampling preparation.

to prepare the sample on something, I need to make sure that it's flat so I can, and both samples are flat so the light can transmit through the sample. Q. All right. And did you reach your conclusion from the

two separate areas you sampled? A. Yes. I found that they both shared the same chemical

makeup. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. And that means what, in laymen's terms? In laymen's terms that means that -- I can't without

888

using -Q. A. Is the paint the same? They share -- it shares the same chemical makeup based on

that test. Q. All right. You also did another test to determine if the

serial number was placed on the firearm when the firearm was coated versus whether the serial number was on the firearm and then coated; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct. All right. And you did some type, I guess, of

comparative analysis? A. Q. A. Yes. That was the metal plate experiment.

Can you tell the jury about that, please? Sure. So I took a metal plate and stamped one side of it And on the other side I

first, and then painted over it.

painted it first, let the paint dry, and then took some die stamps and stamped some numbers into it and visually compared that, what I saw under the microscope, because I definitely looked at it under a microscope to see whether the paint was lodged into the impression, whether the stamping process physically altered the paint like I had seen with the exhibit. And I could see that was true, that when you painted the metal surface first and then stamped it, it did physically alter the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 paint. When you stamped the metal surface first and then

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spray-painted over it, it was very smooth, it didn't have defect to it, wasn't altered at all. Q. Let's go back. Is that one -- is this how you started

the test? A.

Ms. Walbridge, is this how you started the test?

That's a magnified image, I actually have another

photograph. Q. A. Let's go back to -So this isn't a photograph of the whole plate, but this

was taken under the microscope so it's a magnified image of some of those markings. And you can see on the bottom, that's

the result of stamping it first and then painting it with black spray paint. paint. You can see it's smooth, there's no cracks in the

The paint is lodged within the impression, but it's not

cracked on the surface, doesn't have that effect of, you know, sticking your finger in the cake, if I can go back to that. Q. All right. So in this -- let me see. Does that mean

that the paint in these numbers are uniform? A. Q. Yes. All right. And in the other way, where you paint and

then stamp, it would be quite different; is that correct? A. That's correct. And that's what the above photograph

shows.

And it's not a magnified image of each of the numbers,

so from what you're seeing here, you know, you can say, well, it doesn't look like there's any paint in the impressions, but B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 I actually have a photograph of a magnified, even more magnified image of one of those numbers. Q. A. These are the magnified images?

890

That's the magnified image and those arrows point to --

you can see that paint was driven into the impression by the stamping process. Q. A. Q. Is the same for this? Yes. All right. Can you tell -- can you tell the jury how you

did that, what type of device you used to do the stamping, please? A. I used die stamps, and I used die stamps because our

firearms examiner had concluded that die stamps were used to make the E683. Q. All right. Does this analysis also corroborate what Mr.

Kong collaborated with you when you put the series of photographs together? A. Q. A. In what sense? About it being stamped? Oh, yes. That's why he gave me die stamps because he had

determined that die stamps were used to make the impressions. That wasn't something that I have expertise in determining. Q. All right. Let me ask you this, ma'am: This work that

you did, the body of analysis and conclusions, it falls under the rubric of comparative analysis; is that correct? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. That's correct. And you talked about peer review.

891

What is peer review,

please? A. Peer review means that we have another qualified

examiner, for me, qualified in trace evidence, then reviews all of my case notes, all of my photos, all of the data that was produced by an instrument, as well as my report. Q. A. Q. A. Okay. All at once, all in a complete package. And who reviewed that particularly for today's testimony? A trace chemist, forensic chemist for the ATF, her name

is Lee Brun-Conti. Q. A. All right. I have. And have you worked with her before? I said I had in-service

She was my trainer.

training with ATF, she was one of my trainers for ATF, and I have worked with her at ATF and have known her in the field before. Q. Can you tell the jury about any standards that control

the method and theory of your comparative analysis, and are there error rates associated with any of the tests you that performed, please? A. Our laboratory has methods and procedures for handling We also have methods and procedures for the And these

forensic evidence.

techniques that we use when analyzing evidence.

techniques have been based historically on techniques that have B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

892

been proven to be reliable and accurate in the forensic field. Q. Have you done anything unusual, ma'am, in any of your

testing or use anything that's pushing the envelope of science regarding, I guess, the facilities or instruments you used in the course of your analysis? A. I have not. I used instruments that have been used for

many, many years, and comparative analysis has been done for thousands of years in forensics. Q. All right. And are you saying then these techniques, are

they generally accepted in the scientific community? A. Yeah. My techniques are generally accepted in the

scientific community. Q. A. Could you have done these tests without a microscope? No. And I wouldn't have. I wouldn't have been able to

see the detail and come up with conclusions. MR. KUMIEGA: with the -THE COURT: (Brief pause) (By Mr. Kumiega) So, ma'am, in short then, your final Yes. Your Honor, if I may have just a moment

conclusions are that, regarding the Sten, and the layer, you concluded what, please? A. My conclusion was that the paint surrounding the

impressed marking E683 was a single layer of black paint, and that that black paint was on the firearm prior to the stamping B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Q. witness. process. Q. All right. And you made a conclusion regarding the

893

solvents? A. I did. I did not see any indication that a solvent or

solution was used to remove the paint or coating. Q. All right. And so, obviously, it was painted, then

stamped, and there was no -MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I think he's leading the

If he wants to ask her conclusions -THE COURT: Will be sustained. The conclusion regarding painting and

(By Mr. Kumiega)

the stamping, please? A. That the paint was on the firearm prior to it being

stamped in that area E683. Q. is? A. Q. Solubility test. Yes. And when you talk about solubility tests, is that what it

And when you talk about fingernail polish, that takes

away something, is that the point, for the -A. Yes. Solubility test is a test to see if something will

dissolve in something else. Q. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: I have nothing further, your Honor.

You may cross-examine.

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. CROSS-EXAMINATION

894

Ms. Walbridge, as I understand, it's your testimony that

around the serial number based upon your examination you determined that there was a single layer of paint; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. Okay. Did you examine he entirety of the firearm for a

single layer of paint, or just around the serial number? A. Q. I really just concentrated around the markings E683. All right. And I also understand then, well, it would be

fair to say then you don't know if there's other layers of paint at other portions of that firearm? A. Q. I do not know. All right. No. Your -- when

Now, let me ask you, ma'am:

talking about the coating, I believe your examination, you said, was based upon, or your conclusion was that there was a single coating was based upon a microscopic examination, right? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. And that's a subjective determination; is that not right? That's correct. I mean, you look at it and based upon what you observe

you form the opinion that this is a single layer? A. It's based on that and training that I've had and

experience of looking at multiple-layered paints, if we're B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

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going to just talk about the material, multiple-layer things, single-layer things. Q. You independently made a subjective determine, was my

question, right? A. Q. I independently looked at it. Okay. Yes.

Now, about -- when we're talking about the coating

of the firearm, or around the serial number, let's use that because that's where you looked, I think you testified that the paint around the firearm that you saw outside the serial number, and the paint that you saw inside the serial number were of the same or similar type of composition; is that accurate? A. Yes. They had the same elemental composition and

chemical composition. Q. Okay. So based upon your training and background, if I

have a can of paint, we'll just say I have a can of paint here, spray paint, okay? And I spray just a tube with that spray

paint, can you tell from a microscope how many times I've painted that tube with that same can of paint? A. I might be able to, yeah. I probably would need to do,

look at it, to do some form of, you know, take it up like I did here with the razor blade to see if there was a layer sequence. Q. Well, you didn't do that in this case, you said you just

looked at it with a microscope, as I understood. A. I did look at it with a microscope. I also sampled it

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 above the 3. Q.

896

And the purpose of that sampling I thought was for the

infrared so you could get a determination that it was the same type of paint; is that right? A. Q. That's what I used the sample for. Okay. And so I guess my question is: If I take a tube

and I spray it with this can of paint here today, and let's say I'm not a very good painter and I spray it kind of thick, might you mistake that for a double coat of paint? A. Q. A. Q. Depends on if it's the same color. It's all out of this can, same can. Okay. And let's just say I spray it a little thick, can you

tell whether or not that's a double coat or a single coat? A. Q. If you sprayed it thick it would be a single coat. Let's assume that I take that spray can and I spray it

today and it dries, and tomorrow I think, out of an abundance of caution, I want to spray it again, and I just spray it lightly, just to make sure I haven't -- to cover up any possible imperfections, like there might just be a spot like a white spot or something, and I'm using and painting this item right here. Are you going to be able to tell that there's a --

that I painted it the next day? A. With your example of spray paint it could be difficult to

determine whether there are multiple layers. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

897

So -- and it's fair to say you have no knowledge of the

manner in which Government's Exhibit 3.16, the firearm, was painted; would that be accurate? A. Q. I don't have any knowledge of how it was painted. Okay. No.

And you don't know if someone may have painted it

and the next day just given it a light coat over or something like that; would that be fair? A. Q. Are you asking if I think there is multiple layers? No. My question was, ma'am: You don't know if somebody

painted it, and the next day lightly coated over it, just like I explained on this example right here? A. From the E683, really, all I was making a conclusion on

is that the stamping process forced the paint within the impression, the paint came first. Q. Okay. So the answer to my question is, I don't know, Mr.

Martin; is that right? A. Q. I guess I can't tell that. Okay. No.

So I'm going to get to the serial numbers here in There was

a minute, because you also did a solubility test. three tests basically.

Coats of paint, solubility, and your Those were the three

examination of serial numbers, right? tests you did? A. Q. A. Can you repeat those. The coats of paint? Uh-huh.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Solubility, examination of the serial numbers? I only examined E683, so you're saying "numbers." I meant E683. I'm not trying to trick you up there.

898

apologize. A. That's okay. My whole analysis encompassed looking at

E683 and applying tests to do a comparative analysis of what I thought the sequence of events were. Q. Okay. Which included, among other things, trying to make

a determination as to the number of coats, right? A. Q. that? A. Q. I did do a solubility test. Yes. That's correct. Number two, you did a solubility test. Do you recall

And you used, I believe, three separate reagents for your

solubility, right? A. Q. I did use three. Yes.

And Mr. Kumiega and you were going a while ago talking

about rates of error and how your testing is very precise, and that you use -- you have all this accredited laboratory. you recall that testimony, ma'am? A. Q. Yes, I do. Okay. When you picked three reagents, for example, one Do

of them I think you said was acetone, right? A. Q. Acetone. Yes.

One was fryer-something? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Fry's Reagent. And what was the third one? Ethyl alcohol. Those were just guesses, right? In terms of what?

899

You have no idea what, if any, reagent may have been used

on that firearm? A. I do not know what reagent was used, if there was one,

but I didn't see any indication that a reagent, solution, or solvent was used. Q. My question was: Those three, those were just guesses on

what to use? A. They weren't necessarily guesses. There was a scientific

thought process behind it, which there always is when I'm doing an exam. The Fry's Reagent was used because that is a solution This was

used by firearms examiners to restore serial numbers.

a firearm, this was a questioned, quote unquote, serial number. The material itself was paint. Paint can be soluble, and in

this case was in acetone because typically paint is soluble in something that it's made up of. And ethyl alcohol is another So it

solution, solvent that is used in solubility tests.

really wasn't a guess, I was using scientific reasoning in choosing those three things. Q. If one of those resolvents, or reagents, I'm sorry, was

not used, your testing would be in error as to whether or not B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 some other substance might have been used; isn't that true, ma'am? A. No. Probably if none of those, if the paint wasn't

900

soluble in any of those, I would have kept going and looking for something that did dissolve this paint, because what I was trying to do was do a comparison, what does that look like and do I see that similarities in the E683 markings. Q. A. And did you find a similarity in the E683 markings? I didn't. I found that acetone readily dissolved that

paint, it gave that appearance of completely coming down to the metal, you know, coloring outside the lines is the best way for me to explain that. And I didn't see any indication around the

E683 markings that any solvent or solution had been used. Q. So the answer was, I did not find any solvent that any

reagent, that was similar to what was on the E683; is that right, ma'am? A. No. My conclusion is I didn't see any indication that a

solution or solvent was is used to remove the coating around E683. Q. is: My question, ma'am, and I'm not trying to be difficult Of the three you used, you found none of those to create

any characteristic similar to what you had seen on E683; is that right, or wrong? A. Again, I didn't see any indication that a solution or

solvent dissolved any of the paint surrounding E683. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

901

Well, of the three you used, I'm not talking about the

three, I'm talking about any other solutions. A. Well, the point was just to look at solubility, and I It could have been

found that acetone did dissolve the paint. -- we could call it solvent X.

So the point was to look at the Does it

solubility, what does the result of that look like.

take up the paint down to the metal, you can see the metal. You can't really dissolve just itty bitty pieces of the paint. So, again, comparing that to the E683, no indication that a solvent or solution was used to dissolve any of that coating surrounding those numbers and that one letter. Q. Did you do any experiment, I mean, I saw -- we had an Do you Do you

exhibit up here where you had three different stripes. recall that, one involving these each of the reagents. recall that exhibit? A. Q. I do. Okay. Yes.

And would you agree with me, ma'am, the amount of

paint that you removed would be based upon the amount of reagent that you used and the amount of pressure used? A. I would not base it on pressure, solubility has nothing Because if two things aren't

to do with pressure, actually.

soluble, like oil and water, it doesn't matter how much you stir it, it's not going to dissolve. The -- each cotton swab

that was used was completely saturated with the choice of solvent. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Well, my question was:

902

Pressure does play a role, does For

it not, ma'am, if the reagent removes some of the paint? example, fingernail polish.

My wife wears and she occasionally If

uses a cotton ball or a some type of swab to remove that. she doesn't have enough solution, enough fingernail polish remover -- that's acetone, right? A. Q. That's acetone. Yes.

If she doesn't have enough acetone or she doesn't rub it

hard enough, she's not going to remove all of the fingernail polish; will you agree with that? A. If she doesn't have enough acetone on the cotton ball she The pressure has nothing to

might not remove it all at once. do with solubility. Q.

So you're saying if she just lays the cotton ball on

there and there's enough on there it will remove it? A. Q. A. Q. It will remove some of it. You said to the bare? I didn't say to the bare. Maybe I misunderstood you. That's what I'm asking you. Yes.

Depending upon how much pressure you use, if it's something like acetone, you may remove a portion of it, or you may remove all of it. A. Is that a fair statement, ma'am?

It depends on how much of the acetone you have on the

cotton ball. Q. Okay. And you didn't run any kind of variations based

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 upon amount, you just saturated it; is that correct? A. Q. That's correct.

903

So if I have less acetone and rub harder on an object to

remove paint, it won't remove as much paint if I have more acetone and don't rub as much? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. It all depends if the paint is soluble in acetone. I'm making an assumption. Let's assume it is.

Repeat the question then, please. Okay. Okay. If I have less reagent, less fingernail polish remover, We'll assume that the paint is soluble in acetone.

just a half cotton ball, and I rub harder, and then I have a full cotton ball, a cotton ball that's fully saturated, and I rub less, which is going to remove more? A. I don't know. I would have to do that experiment I

guess. Q.

I've never really done it.

That's the question I've been trying to ask you, and But it

maybe I've done it very poorly, and I apologize.

depends on -- it can depend upon the amount of pressure involved, would you agree, ma'am, in the rubbing? A. Q. A. With how much is taken off? Yes. Again, I would have to do it. I was just looking at Is that what you're asking?

solubility. pressure.

I wasn't really thinking or even considering

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay.

904

Now, you talked about a -- pardon me -- a stamping

experiment, and we had some pictures up where you stamped some letters on one side of a piece of metal and then some letters on the other side of a piece of metal, one of them was painted first, then stamped, the other one wasn't painted first but painted after it was stamped. A. Q. That's correct. Okay. Yes. Do you recall that, ma'am?

Did you use the -- you had the chemical compound

of the paint from your experiment, not the chemical compound, I think you called the elements of the paint from that firearm. Did you use that type of paint, same type of paint in your experiment on that firearm, ma'am? A. Actually, it's chemical makeup, and I didn't identify the

paint, I just compared the chemical makeup of the two. Q. A. Okay. My question was: Did you use the same paint?

No, because I didn't identify the same paint, I didn't I used the same color, used black spray

use the same paint. paint. Q. Okay.

And that firearm, you would agree with me, would

you not, has a round barrel on it? A. Q. Yes, I would agree with that. Did your stamps, was it on a round object or a different

type of shaped object? A. Q. It was a flat piece of metal. Okay. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Circular piece of metal.

905

And did you determine the density or type of metal that

is to make sure you used the same kind of metal in your stamping experiment? A. No. I wasn't trying to replicate what was occurring

here, I was simply trying to use something as a comparative value to what I was seeing that the stamping process forces the paint into the impression. Q. Well, then, for comparison purposes then, if we use

different variables, that still makes your results just as valid; is that your testimony? A. I would have to do that different experiment, then I

would compare the two and make a conclusion based on that comparison. Q. So you didn't do a comparison based on this firearm,

stamping upon with dies on that firearm, something identical to that firearm with that same type of paint; is that right? A. The purpose of my comparison was just to look, see what

does the stamping process do to paint, if the paint comes first or the paint comes second. Q. Okay. Let me ask my question again, because I don't You did not do an experiment with

think you understood me.

that type of metal from that firearm and that type of paint? A. Q. I did not. Okay. No.

Now, likewise, in your stamping process, the flat

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A.

906

stamp that you had -- excuse me -- the flat piece of metal that you stamped and painted and then flat piece of metal that you painted and then stamped, did you age the paint? For example,

if that paint is several years old, did you take into consideration what impact, if any, the age of the paint might have on the results of your test? A. Q. I did not age the paint. Okay. No. I

I'm having put up here Government's Exhibit 10. This one right here. Do you see that

think it should be 18. one, ma'am? A. Q. Okay.

There's a screen there in front of you.

As I understand from your testimony, this is the metal

plate that was stamped and then sprayed with black paint after the use of -- or acetone to dissolve the paint; is that right? A. Q. That's correct. Okay. Yes.

And it's -- I think you talked about this was

magnified, this is a photograph through the microscope, right? A. Q. Yes. Taken in the microscope. I think you said based upon where

And it's close to 5X.

it is it might be closer or farther or something? A. Q. It's not true magnification, is what that means. Okay. And what I want to -May I borrow your pointer? This area right here (indicating)?

MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) Uh-huh.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. I want to make sure I understand.

907 Is that areas where

the paint because of solubility was removed from the inside of the stamp? A. Q. That's correct. And again, that was, you said you painted it, you stamped How much time passed from the time you

it, then painted it.

painted it until the acetone or whatever reagent was used on that one? A. Q. A. Could I check my notes to see? Sure. Okay. I did it the same day, according to my notes, my

notes for -- my notes on the process of spray paint and die-stamping the metal dated 4/14/08. Also on 4/14/08, I'm

discussing how I was demonstrating what it might look like if solvent was used to dissolve the coating, and I explained that I used the stamp backwards nine, it's just a six. Q. A. Q. So it was the same day? It was the same day. And if someone, for example, had taken one of the

solvents that you testified about and removed the paint around the serial number, and then got the same can of spray paint that it had been painted with earlier and painted it again, and let's assume they removed the entire area that you examined at and put a whole fresh coat of paint on it, would that look like one coat of paint, or another coat, or two coats of paint? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I'm processing your question, which was, if you don't

908

mind repeating it, that the original layer was completely removed? Q. A. Q. A. By some type of solvent. By some type of solvent, and then resprayed? Correct. First of all, it wouldn't look the same. It would look

like the experiment that I did where it was stamped first and then painted. in the paint. It would be smooth, you wouldn't see any cracks But then if I was -- the same paint the results,

you know, would have the same chemical and elemental composition, but they visually wouldn't look the same. Q. It visually wouldn't look the same because it was just

painted? A. Correct. It was painted over the impressed markings So we can refer back

versus painted first and then impressed.

to the photographs from my experiment on the metal plate. Q. So the paint that you examined, let me make sure I The examination you made would have

understand your answer.

been covered up by the new coat of paint; is that correct? A. Q. I don't understand what you're asking. Numbers are stamped in on painted, on a painted gun, at

some point, that layer is removed, and it's repainted with the same can of paint in that area by the serial number, your examination of the stamps that, the serial numbers that you B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 looked at, is going to have paint in it, correct? A. Q. A. The impressions are going to have paint in them? Yes, ma'am. I thought you said with your scenario that the --

909

whatever was used originally took that up. Q. Well, from my understanding from your experiment that

won't all be taken out. A. No. Actually, it totally could be done, it just wouldn't It -- you would see all metal. It

look like this exhibit.

would be gone like the photograph that you showed.

If you

worked on it you could get all the paint out of the impression, but you're also going to dissolve all the paint surrounding that impression as well. Q. A. I understand that. And then it's repainted, ma'am.

If it was repainted it wouldn't look like what I observed You wouldn't have that look of paint

under the microscope.

within the impression and the cracking on the outside of the impression. Q. It just wouldn't look the same.

And if you looked at it under the microscope, say, 22

years later? A. I still don't think you would see the physical altering

of the paint that you can tell was impacted by the stamping process. Q. Is there a way, and I'm asking this out of ignorance,

which have been most of the questions I've asked today, but if B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

910

there's a way, ma'am, is there a process where the paint can be aged to simulate 22-year-old paint? A. There are aging processes that I know of, whether -- I

don't know whether -- how you would go about aging 22 years, but I do know that you can age paint. Q. And none of that, we're in agreement, none of that

occurred in this examination that you did, or testing? A. Q. I did not do any experimentation with aging. Now, let me ask you, ma'am: From your -- from the tests

you performed, I think you testified that you removed some of the paint from the inside of the serial number with a needle. Do you recall that? A. Q. A. I did do that. Okay. Yes.

And I'm assuming anyone could do that.

If you're not equipped with a microscope and you don't

have the skill that I've learned in my six years of doing this, I think it would be difficult. Q. So I can't just take a pin and magnifying glass and stick

it in there and drag it along the serial number in an attempt to make it more legible? A. No. A magnifying glass wouldn't magnify it enough, one,

and tip of a pin is much larger in diameter than the really fine needle that I used. Q. So there's no way, you're saying, that any prior owners

of this firearm could have removed any of the paint out of the B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 impression; is that your testimony? A. Q. With what?

911

With some type of a needle or something, some type of a

sharp object. A. If someone had a tungsten needle, which typically no one

but people who do trace evidence have, it would be really difficult with the lack of a microscope and the lack of skill to just go in each of the impressions and remove that. Q. Well, I'm not saying remove all the paint, I'm just

saying remove some paint. A. Q. I don't think so. No.

Over time does paint -- from your training, over time

does paint decompose, break down? A. Paint can weather, but really doesn't break down. If

that was the case we would probably be repainting the walls inside our houses every couple of years. from 1956 that had original paint. But I have a house It might

It's weathered.

yellow, but doesn't fall completely off the wall. Q. Well, I had an old 1988 Delta car, and the entire hood Is that because of weather, is that

almost disappeared.

because it just deteriorates? A. With automotive paint, that's typically caused by

ultraviolet light from the sun. Q. So I'm talking about paint on metal like paint on a car.

So that weathers and wears off; would you agree with me, ma'am? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

912

That automotive paint and it can weather and be affected It's all

by sunlight based on the layers of the paint.

different based on automotive -- there's so many factors involved, automotive manufacturer, you had an old Delta, they may not have put a clear coat, nowadays there's clear coats on our vehicles that kind of reduce the weathering and aging-effect of the sunlight. factors involved. Q. You'll agree with me that firearm was not painted with There's just a plethora of

interior house paint? A. Q. I did not identify the paint. You don't think it was painted with interior house paint,

do you? A. Q. A. I didn't identify it. Well, was it painted with automotive paint? I can certainly -- my guess would be from knowing

automotive paint that it wasn't, but again, I didn't identify it. Typically automotive paint -- and the reason I can say We would

this is automotive paint isn't soluble in acetone. have big problems with our cars if it was. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. You may redirect.

May I have a moment, your Honor? Yes.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Walbridge - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Ma'am, does this cross-examination change your REDIRECT EXAMINATION

913

conclusions in any manner? A. No. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further.

Ms. Walbridge, you may be excused.

Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: call Donald Ladd. THE COURT: I think before we do that -- I'm sorry, I Let's take about a Your Honor, United States would like to

didn't realize how close to three it was.

20-minute break, and we'll be in recess for approximately 20 minutes. And again, I would remind you of the same admonitions

I've given you each time. All rise while the jury exits. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: You can use this opportunity, Mr. Kumiega,

to talk to the one other witness on the immunity issue. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: to deal with. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, sir. Yes, your Honor.

See if that's an issue we're going to have

We'll be in recess.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. You might pull that microphone down towards you, Mr.

914

(A recess was had, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: Is it Mr. Ladd? Yes, sir.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Mr. Ladd, if you would stand and raise

your right hand and be sworn by the clerk, please. DONALD LADD, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

Ladd, so you can speak into it. MR. MARTIN: bench conference? THE COURT: All right. Your Honor, may we have a very brief

(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I had previously filed a

motion in limine on his testimony pursuant to Mr. Kumiega's 405(b) motion, and I'm not sure we've had a ruling on my motion in limine, trying to keep out his testimony relating to my client allegedly trying to sell him an automatic weapon in 2004 or '5, I think. MR. KUMIEGA: September '05.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: The Court is going to overrule the

915

defendant's motion as it relates to that specific testimony of Mr. Ladd. You said you were concerned about something else Have you had a chance to visit with him? Yes. I visited with him, along with Mr.

about the testimony. MR. KUMIEGA:

Lacy and the agents, your Honor, and it's going to be a narrow focus and not talk about any other extraneous matters. THE COURT: Okay.

(The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Sir, can you introduce yourself to the

jury, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. I'm Donald Ladd.

And can you spell your last name? L-A-D-D. Mr. Ladd, how old are you? Sixty-two. Now, from the garb you're wearing, you're incarcerated;

is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. What crime have you been convicted of, please? Bank robbery. And when did you plead guilty to bank robbery, please? 2005, the end of 2005. And what sentence did you receive, please? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. 218 months.

916

And have -- do you have other bank robbery convictions in

your record, please? A. Q. A. Yes. Can you tell the jury about that, please? I robbed some banks back in the early '90s, and was

convicted and did ten years, five months, and got out for 3 1/2 years, did it again, and here I am. Q. All right. Mr. Ladd, what court convicted you on your,

on some of these last offenses, please? A. This court. I don't know. I can't tell you what judge.

I can't remember, but it was this court. Q. A. Q. In this very courthouse; is that correct? Yes. Now, you said you received a 218-month sentence; is that

correct? A. Q. I believe that's what it was. And prior to that, you had a bank robbery conviction, was

it in Ft. Smith, Arkansas? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And here in Oklahoma City? Yes. What year did you receive a sentence here in Oklahoma

City, or a bank robbery conviction? A. '95. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Do you remember what sentence you got, please?

917

Forty-six months, I believe it was, added on to what I

had already received. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. And from where? In Arkansas. All right. Yes. And what sentence did you receive in Arkansas, please? Eight years, whatever, 90-something months. All right. You also had other, another property offense And Ft. Smith?

here in Western District, or in Oklahoma County, is that correct, or state of Oklahoma, some other felony convictions? A. Q. No. I had arrests, but no convictions. Let me ask you this: You testified in a case that

Okay.

I prosecuted back in 1995; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And do you remember the nature of your testimony in that

case, please? A. Yes. A friend of mine decided he wanted to rob some

banks and told me about it, and you found out about it, so I testified. Q. And did you get a break in your sentence, if you

remember? A. Q. Yeah. Before I testified, not after. Now, you're here hoping for some type of

All right.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 leniency; is that correct? A. Q. for? A. I don't know, a time cut. It would be nice. Yes.

918

Tell the jury about that, please.

What are you hoping

I don't have any idea what it

would be. Q. All right. And did your attorney inform you the

procedures that our office would have to go through? A. Q. Yes. Can you tell the jury about that, please, if you

remember? A. Well, the way I understand it, there's a group of federal

attorneys that look over what the, I guess the testimony and how it impacted the case, and decide whether someone deserves a time cut or not. really know. Q. And who makes the ultimate decision if you get a time cut I've never been through it before, I don't

or not? A. Q. A. Q. The judge. The sentencing judge? Yes. All right. I want to bring your attention to September

of 2005. A. Q.

Do you remember that time?

Yes. And do you remember meeting Friesen on or about that day? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Sometime in early September. And how do you -- how do you come up with the date of

919

September of 2005 in relationship to meeting Mr. Friesen? triggers that for you, please? A. I just -- I knew it was sometime around there. I

What

couldn't tell you exactly when, I mean, I didn't write it down or anything, but I just knew it was around either the end of August or first part of September. Q. Was that a significant event that happened in your life

that you would be able to date that time? A. Well, I'll put it this way: When I saw some machine guns

in the back of the car that I was riding in it scared me, it scared me, because if we had been pulled over I would have gotten ten years in a heartbeat. Q. Let me ask you this: Do you remember being arrested on

your current bank robbery charge? A. Q. Yes. All right. And can you date that arrest from seeing Mr.

Friesen? A. Well, it was October 13th, so it was about a month and a

half afterwards. Q. A. Q. Okay. Or a month and a half before, right? Yes.

Well, yeah, after I met him.

Tell us the circumstances, Mr. Ladd, how you meet Mr.

Friesen. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I went to the Red Dog Saloon, and I pulled up in the

920

parking lot about ten o'clock at night, and I ran into Doug Friesen and a friend of his, some tall, looked like a biker, had a black leather jacket and long hair. And we talked a

little bit and he said, you know, let's go drink a beer. Q. A. Who said that? Mr. Friesen. I didn't know the other guy. He never

introduced the other fellow, so -Q. A. What happened next after he made that statement? I said yeah. So, yes, I jumped in the car with him and And we

we took off and headed west on Northwest Tenth Street.

got to the turnoff to Lake Overholser, and I say where are we headed, and he said I've got something I want to show you. by this time it's dark, really dark. So

So we pulled out around

the lake and there was no one there, and they pulled over and he opened the trunk and pulled out what I thought was a Mac 10, I can't tell the difference between a Mac 10 and a Mac 11, but anyway, a machine gun, with -- they've got barrel extenders that screw on the front. And it had one of those with a, like

a hose clamp like you clamp a hose on a radiator on the front of it to hold it together, apparently, and it was a silencer. And, man, I didn't know what to think. around. So there was no one

He cocked it and fired off most of a clip, I don't

know if it was a whole clip, but most of a clip, and asked me what I thought. And I said pretty impressive.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Did he try to sell you the firearm? Yes. Tell the jury about that, please.

921

He asked me -- he said he knew I had just gotten out of

prison a while back for bank robbery and wanted to know if I wanted to buy it. And I said, no, not really. He said he And I said,

would sell it to me for $3,000 with the silencer. no thanks, I don't need it.

So then he put it back in the

trunk, slammed the trunk, and we went by his house, sat around and drank some beer and talked. Q. A. Q. Let me ask you, Mr. Ladd: Yes. Was there any -- did you observe a firearm at the parking You met him at the Red Dog?

lot at that time, or at a different location? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. At the -- out at the lake. Did you shoot the gun?

All right. No.

I never touched the gun.

Who shot the gun at that point? Doug Friesen. All right. And what direction was the gun being -- was

it a machine gun? A. Q. A. Q. Was it what? Was it a machine gun? Oh, yeah. How do you know? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. I think they had 30-round clips, and he went through

922

either all the clip or most of the clip just like that, and he shot it toward the water. Q. A. Q. A. Was the other gentleman with him? Oh, yeah. What was he doing? He was standing around. He didn't look too happy about

the whole thing. Q. All right. Did -- other than Mr. Friesen, did anybody

else shoot the machine gun? A. Q. A. Q. A. No. Was there an attached silencer to that machine gun? Yes. What type of report or noise did it make? Very little. It didn't sound like a, like any gun you It was fairly quiet.

would fire without a silencer. Q.

Did Mr. Friesen describe the type of weapon he was

showing you, please? A. Q. A. Yeah. He said it was a Mac 10.

And did he describe the silencer? Just said it was made out of a barrel extender. I know

that barrel extenders were designed to hold the gun, not really as silencers. that before. silencer. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 I mean, they came from the factory. I've seen

But he had taken one and converted it to a

Ladd - Direct/Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. No. -- you ran into Mr. Friesen? No. Now, how did you become aware, sir, of Mr. Friesen's Were you employed at that time when --

923

legal difficulties? A. Q. A. Q. A. I saw an article in the paper, The Oklahoman. And when you read that, what did you do, please? I gave a note to the SIS lieutenant at the prison. What is SIS? What does that stand for? Apparently he

Special Investigative Service, I think.

got ahold of you. Q. And do you remember being interviewed by myself and the

agent? A. Q. Yes. All right. Now, you had prior dealings with Mr. Friesen;

is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. Is that why you knew him back in September of '05? Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor.

You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION

So you saw an article in the newspaper that Doug had been B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. indicted, and you handed a note to somebody at the prison facility where you're staying so Mr. Kumiega would find out that you were willing to testify for him again, right? A. Q. Again. You and Mr. Kumiega have been to the rodeos before

924

together, so to say? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Objection. Improper comment.

Will be sustained. You've testified for Mr. Kumiega before

(By Mr. Martin)

in a trial, correct, sir? A. Q. Yes. And what facility were you at when you read this article

in the paper? A. Q. Forest City, Arkansas. Okay. And after you handed that note, sometime later,

you had a meeting with Mr. Kumiega, was Mr. Knopp there? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Were there any other law enforcement agents there? A gentleman from the ATF. Another ATF agent? Yes. And you told them that in September of 2005, or August of I don't know his name.

2005, September or August of 2005, you run into Doug in the parking lot of the Red Dog Saloon? A. Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay. And the Red Dog Saloon is a drinking

925

establishment; is that right, sir? A. Q. It's a strip joint. A strip joint. Okay. And had you been inside there or

had Mr. Friesen been inside there, sir? A. I don't know if he had. I had been in there many times,

but I hadn't that night. Q. That's what I'm saying, that night. I'm focusing my

questions on what happened that night, sir, okay? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No, I hadn't been in. Okay. Yes. Okay. And that was sometime before ten in the evening? But you saw him in that parking lot?

Right around ten. Right around ten in the evening. There was another

individual with him, correct? A. Q. Yes. And I believe you testified that there was a trunk full Is

of machine guns that scared you to death; is that right? that what you said? A. Q. A. Q. A. Well, it scared me. Yeah.

Because you didn't want to go back to prison? Right. But that's where you are now, right? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Okay.

926

Now, you said you left there, and so I'm assuming

you got in the automobile with Mr. Friesen? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Right. Is that right? No. What kind of car was it? It was a Chevy Impala. A Chevy Impala? Yes. Was it Mr. Friesen's car? He wasn't driving, so I don't know. He was not? No. Okay. Yes. And you drive to Lake Overholser, right? Yes. And Mr. Friesen -- who opens the trunk? He did, he took the keys. He took the keys from the guy that was driving and opened And I'm assuming the other individual was driving? You didn't drive your own car?

the trunk? A. Q. Yes. And he pulled out -- how many machine guns were in this

trunk? A. I saw two. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Okay. And you described them as Mac 10s?

927

Either a Mac 10 or Mac 11. All right.

I can't tell the difference.

And you also described them as having

homemade silencers on them, right? A. Q. The one he fired did. Okay. Yes.

And you knew it was homemade because it was

somehow crudely fashioned or something, sir? A. No. He took a barrel extender, if you know anything

about the guns, there's a tube that screws on from the factory that you can hold onto the gun with, and apparently he sawed the end off, made a silencer and put the end back on with a hose clamp, looked like. Q. So a little hose C-clamp that you tighten up, and that

was on part of the firearm, right? A. Q. A. Q. Right. On the silencer? On the silencer. All right. Yes.

And you said that the firearm was -- almost

emptied the clip or did empty the clip, you're not sure which; is that right? A. Q. A. Right. After that occurred, you all drive back to his house? I guess it was his house. He opened the door. He had

the keys to the door. Q. Where was that? What's the address?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. South of Tenth Street and west of Council, I believe.

928

Anyway, just south of the lake. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Just south of Lake Overholser? Yes. Okay. Yes. All right. And -Excuse me. I don't mean to interrupt your And you said he had the keys to the door?

THE COURT: cross-examination. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:

That's fine. You're saying "he", and I don't know --

there's Mr. Friesen and another gentleman, and so I don't know which. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: (By Mr. Martin) I apologize, your Honor. I don't mean to interrupt you. I appreciate your interrupting me, Judge. Mr. Friesen had the keys to the

residence? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And I believe you testified that Mr. Friesen

offered to sell you this machine gun and silencer for two or $3,000; is that right? A. Q. 3,000. 3,000. Yes. And it's your hope today that based on that

testimony, Mr. Kumiega is going to talk to the powers that be B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 who will ask a judge -- who was your sentencing judge? A. Q. I couldn't tell you. I can't remember.

929

Well, ask your sentencing judge to cut something off the

218 months you have to do on this last bank robbery, right? A. Q. I certainly hope so. Okay. Now, you got convicted, as I understand, of a bank

robbery in Arkansas back in 1992, an armed bank robbery, correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. It wasn't charged that way, but it was.

You went in there with a firearm? Yes. And robbed a bank in Arkansas in 1992, and you were given

97 months, right? A. Q. Yes. And then in 1995, you got convicted of or pled guilty to

another bank robbery here in the Western District of Oklahoma, right? A. Q. A. Q. Well, I pled guilty to conspiracy. Yes.

And that's when you met Mr. Kumiega for the first time? Yes. And you testified for him in another case or in that case

to help him with another, prosecute another individual, right? A. Q. Yes. And because of that, you may have got a shorter sentence

than you might normally have gotten; would you agree, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Yes. I didn't get it after the testimony, so I don't

930

know -- I don't know what I would have gotten. Q. But you know you got a break for helping Mr. Kumiega out,

right? A. Q. Probably. Okay. Yes.

And then less than, or approximately a month after

you testified you had seen Doug and these events occurred, you rob another bank; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. In Lawton, Oklahoma? Yes. With a dangerous weapon? No. You didn't -- you didn't enter a plea of guilty to bank

robbery with a dangerous weapon? A. I used a pellet gun that was inoperative. It was a gun. To me, it

wasn't dangerous. Q. A. Q. I'm sorry?

I say, it was a firearm, but -You had something that appeared to be a firearm, would

you agree? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes. And so you went into a bank, this would be the

third time, with a pellet gun, and it's in Lawton, as I recall. A. Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you ultimately entered a plea in 2005 and were

931

sentenced to 218 months on that? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you're now 62? Yes. So you've served, January of 2005, you've served, say, 30

or 40 months of your sentence? A. Q. Yes. And you made an agreement with Mr. Kumiega in this case,

he actually wrote a letter to your lawyer -- you've seen the letter, have you not, sir? A. Q. Yes. Where he said if you'll come testify for me in Doug's

case, I'll talk to the downward departure committee about a possible Rule 35. A. Q. A. Yes. You know what a Rule 35 is, don't you, sir? It's means substantial help, testimony, whatever, that I Do you know what that means, sir?

can receive a downward departure. Q. Which means the judge has the authority to, the judge has

the authority to let you out of prison immediately if he wanted to? A. Q. A. He has the authority. Or he could do nothing? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. And you're hoping that he would do something; is that

932

correct, sir? A. Q. Of course. Now, those aren't the only instances that you've had of

trouble with the law, are they, sir? A. Q. No. As a matter of fact, this gentleman right here was your

lawyer in 1989, wasn't he, sir? A. Q. Yes. He represented you on a criminal charge pending against

you, not for bank robbery, but for something over in, I'm pointing over here to Oklahoma County District Court, didn't he, sir? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And you hired him to represent you, didn't you, sir? Yes. As a result of that representation, you got a probated

sentence? A. Q. No. I got suspended sentence. Okay. You got -- you

Suspended sentence, probated.

didn't have to go to prison? A. Q. No. Okay. And after he got through representing you, you

filed a lawsuit against him; isn't that true, sir? A. Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Q. And you sued him because he was holding as collateral

933

towards his attorney fees a motorcycle that you had put up, and you sued him to get the motorcycle back, and ultimately you did get the motorcycle back when you paid his attorney fees; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. Yes. And not only did you sue him, but you filed a complaint

with the Oklahoma Bar Association against him because he was holding your motorcycle too, didn't you, sir? A. Q. Yes. And that was the only time Mr. Friesen represented you,

isn't it, sir? A. Q. Yes. So your testimony is that the attorney that represented

me in 1989 tried to sell me a Mac 10 with a silencer in 2005, and I've sued him and filed a bar complaint on him; is that correct? A. Yes. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Any redirect? Yes, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION

MR. KUMIEGA:

Mr. Ladd, did anyone, did either I, Mr. Knopp, or the FBI

-- or first of all, you were convicted by the FBI agents' work B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 in 1995; is that correct? A. Q. Yes.

934

Since 1995, prior to our meeting at the prison where you

were incarcerated, did I ever have any contact with you? A. Q. No. You testified you saw something in the newspaper; is that

correct? A. Q. A. Yes. What did you see in the newspaper, Mr. Ladd? A small article about that big (indicating) that said

Doug had been arrested for, I think lying to the ATF about serial numbers on a machine gun. Q. All right. Now, you testified you saw Mr. Friesen with

silencers; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. Or I know one was.

Was there any mention in that article about silencers? No. Not that I remember. Your Honor, may I approach the bench

MR. KUMIEGA:

regarding a follow-up question? THE COURT: Yes.

(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, I want -- out of an

abundance of caution, Mr. Martin asked if Mr. Ladd sued him, started a line of questioning. I want to ask Mr. Ladd now why

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 he sued Mr. Friesen. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: I asked him. Excuse me? I asked him.

935

He said because he couldn't

get his motorcycle back. MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: I think there was more to it than that. I have the lawsuit. We can ask what the basis was, why he Mr. Friesen, obviously, Mr.

sued him if he thought that.

Friesen was doing him wrong to issue a lawsuit. MR. MARTIN: I think we're going way -- number one,

this is 404(b), and we're going way collateral now. THE COURT: You brought it all up about being sued I'll allow you some very

which went to his credibility.

limited questions on that, but let's keep it very limited. MR. MARTIN: I would prefer him ask him a leading I'm afraid to turn

question, if you have something in mind. this guy loose. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: I am too.

If you won't object to a leading question,

you can ask a leading question. MR. KUMIEGA: If it's all right with the Court, why

did you sue him, and I would end it right there. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: I've got the petition. Well, sure.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: That's pretty open-ended.

936

MR. KUMIEGA:

What did you sue him about in taking the

motorcycle or keeping the motorcycle. THE COURT: Because he testified that he sued him to

get his motorcycle back. MR. KUMIEGA: Obviously, Mr. Ladd is savvy enough to

know that he owes the lawyer something for his representation. THE COURT: I'll allow some limited questions, but I thought this was a legitimate

let's don't get too far out.

question to test his credibility to show his prior animosity between the parties. So I'll allow some limited questions, but

don't go too far with it. MR. KUMIEGA: Yes, sir.

(The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Mr. Ladd, why did you sue Mr. Friesen

to get your motorcycle back? A. When I first talked to him he told me he would represent And he said for a little more

me for $2,000, and I paid that.

that he would guarantee that I would get probation or the charge would be dropped. All right. So I attended a couple of

meetings with him and his secretary, who -Q. Stop. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Your Honor, may I approach the bench? All right.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

937

(The following was had at the bench, out of the hearing of the jury:) MR. KUMIEGA: I want to put the Court on notice,

that's why I asked it, that he's going to talk about Mr. Friesen. The reason I'm asking is I'm doing this out an

abundance of caution that Mr. Ladd is going to launch into an explanation that Mr. Friesen attempted to suborn perjury, and that's part of the underlying reason for the lawsuit. MR. MARTIN: the petition. MR. KUMIEGA: part of his story. notice of this. But that's one of the reasons, that's That's not in the lawsuit at all. I have

That's why I wanted to give the Court

I can withdraw the question at this point if That's the way Mr. Ladd

you want me to, but that's the truth. sees what happened. MR. MARTIN:

That's what he says happened.

I mean,

Judge, we're getting way far afield. THE COURT:

He's got the -You opened this

I understand, Mr. Martin.

whole subject with the lawsuit, and I think he has a right to cross-examine and explain the lawsuit. I mean, I think

certainly it was proper cross-examination to show his prejudice and bias against Mr. Friesen, but I'm a little concerned about how far we go in this. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, is it possible we can take a

five-minute recess to make sure the parameters are right so Mr. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 room. THE COURT: But they don't know where it is. Martin knows what is going to be stated. a mistrial.

938 I don't want to have

I'm the last person that wants it. I have the petition, which I would be

MR. MARTIN:

happy to introduce as a Court's exhibit, that doesn't mention anything about what he's getting ready to say, Judge. THE COURT: Well, of course -- can you get to where

there was just a dispute over the fee? MR. KUMIEGA: to Mr. Ladd. If you can give me a recess I can talk

I'm just afraid he would blurt out -- Mr. Lacy, I just don't want a

his attorney, will be there, your Honor. mistrial.

That's why I'm asking the Court's indulgence. Can we hold the jury down in the jury room

THE COURT:

for about ten minutes? THE CLERK: THE COURT: Yes. Do you want me to swear you in as a

bailiff or anything for that? THE CLERK: MR. MARTIN: I swear. Why don't we just excuse them to the jury

(The following was had in open court, within the hearing of the jury:) THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we have

a little evidentiary matter that is going to take a little time, but it's not going to take very long. Instead of taking

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 hands. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I was going to draw your cases. THE COURT:

939

you clear down to the jury assembly room I'm going to introduce you to a new room, and it's the jury room here on the fifth floor, and Ms. Youngberg is going to take you there. be in recess for about five to ten minutes. And Ms. Youngberg, if you'll just start with Mr. Anderson and just go right out this, follow Ms. Youngberg out this door. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: We're going to take a ten-minute recess. So we'll

Mr. Kumiega, I hate to go clear back down. MR. KUMIEGA: If the marshal can accommodate us, your

Honor, if there's a side room, I can do it standing up, with a chair. THE COURT: MR. LACY: Mr. Lacy, you're here to be -I represent Mr. Ladd in his two prior

Mr. Martin, you have a law book in your

attention to Rules of Evidence Rule 608 which I think are pretty pertinent to the testimony that I anticipate they are going to try to get into. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: All right. If Ed can narrow the issue, then -I think that's what he -- that's the

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 purpose of our recess, Mr. Martin. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Okay.

940

We'll be in recess for about ten minutes.

If you can just visit over here or is there a holding room over there? Is there room for Mr. Lacy, you and Mr. Kumiega could I don't know how big it is. If there's

go in holding room?

room, you can just go in there. MR. KUMIEGA: Thank you, your Honor.

(A recess was had, after which the following was had in chambers:) THE COURT: Are we ready to resume? Yes, your Honor.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

My concern is that I think doing something

general over some kind of fee dispute, but if you start getting into what you mentioned, then I think we're going to get into being much more prejudicial than probative. MR. KUMIEGA: passing that over. That's why I went to the Court. I'm

I think another thing that Mr. Ladd said is

that complaint and the lawsuit might have mention about the perjury in it. So -Might have what? Mentioned about subornation. The lawsuit doesn't. The complaint does, is the way --

THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN:

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Oh, the Bar complaint?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 letter. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: something? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: No. I have a copy. Oh, okay. Just standard, your Honor. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Yes.

941

The Bar complaint. And I don't have it either because the I don't have anything to

records would be destroyed. corroborate it.

It's old records, it's not in there. So are you comfortable with what question

THE COURT:

you're going to ask him? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. I'm going to ask him to explain

the lawsuit, and not mention perjury, what he's saying, the subornation of perjury. My understanding is he's going to say

the motorcycle was worth a lot more than 3,000 bucks and he thought he was getting the shaft. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: I can live with that. And then I'm going to have him read the

So it's a letter from Mr. Friesen or

Okay.

Well, that's basically then a fee So if we can limit

dispute over the value of the motorcycle. it to that, I have no problem. MR. KUMIEGA:

Judge, I think at this point I'm getting

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 close to resting. THE COURT: We have Terri LeMaster outside.

942

Have you talked to her attorney and are we

going to need to deal with the use immunity? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: to take, your Honor. THE COURT: It shouldn't take very long. Yes. I've got LeMaster and maybe Delbert. Then the stipulation regarding the -That those guns were whatchimacallit. Then we have housekeeping regarding some I think so.

Okay. And I don't know how long that's going

MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA:

of the exhibits and things in the beginning that I asked to be introduced, and I think I've got some law on that. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: did a search. THE COURT: We'll do that later. Yes, sir. What? Remember, like 1.8 there was a -- they

MR. KUMIEGA:

(The following was had in open court, with the jury present:) THE COURT: redirect. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Mr. Ladd, I think one of the last Mr. Kumiega, You may resume your

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

943

questions or series of questions was about a lawsuit that you lodged against your attorney, Mr. Friesen. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. Is that correct? Yes. And can you explain to the jury why you filed that

lawsuit, please? A. As I said, I paid him $2,000. He more or less

guaranteed, which I know that he can't guarantee the outcome of a proceeding, but more or less said it would either be dismissed or I would get probation. So come up to sentencing

day said, well, they are not going to drop it and the best you're looking at is a suspended sentence. I said, man, that's

not what I paid you for, so I get sentenced. Q. A. Q. A. it. What was the sentence, please? Five years. Suspended? Yes. Then he duns me $3,000 more. I said I'm not paying

And he had my bike, the bike was worth a whole lot more So it was either pay the money or lose the bike. Did you -- did you have representation on

than $3,000. Q.

All right.

your lawsuit? A. Q. A. No. You did it by yourself? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. And did you make an allegation to the Oklahoma Bar

944

Association? A. Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: regarding the letter? THE COURT: Yes. Mr. Ladd, are you familiar with this Your Honor, may I approach the witness

(By Mr. Kumiega)

document? A. Q. A. Yes. What is that document, please? It's a letter from you to Mr. Lacy, my attorney, telling

me how the situation goes on the Rule 35 downward departure. Q. A. Q. Mr. Lacy, is he present in the courtroom? Yes. Can you point him out and describe what he's wearing,

please? A. The gentleman over there with the gray jacket and glasses

and the orange tie. Q. All right. And can you read that letter into the record

for the jury, please? A. "Dear Mr. Lacy, In consideration for your client's truthful, candid, and honest testimony at trial or any judicial proceeding or interview, I will forward to the Rule 35, or downward departure committee, of my office a summary of his testimony or interview. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 The

Ladd - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. On November 27, 1989, you signed a written statement Q. purpose is to give your client a possibility for a reduction in sentence. As you know, only the Rule

945

35, or downward departure committee, can approve a reduction in sentence. If the committee recommends

reduction, then only the sentencing judge will make a decision whether to reduce Mr. Ladd's sentence, and to what extent. If you have any questions please do not

hesitate to call me." All right. Was that the only extent of your contact with

Mr. Friesen back in -- what year did you get the sentence? A. Q. This sentence? No. The sentence that you discussed. The lawsuit

sentence. A. Q. A. Yeah. That was the only time.

What year was that, if you remember, Mr. Ladd? '89 or '90. I think I went to court in '89, I believe.

'90 is when I got my bike back. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: All right. Nothing further, your Honor.

Any recross, Mr. Martin? Very briefly, your Honor. RECROSS-EXAMINATION

under oath, did you not, saying that you maintained a house which was used for the distribution of drugs, marijuana, and B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

946

while you maintained that house you had a .22 caliber firearm in your possession; is that right, sir? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And that's what Mr. Friesen represented you on, right? Yes. And you thought he should have got those charges,

possession of marijuana with intent to distribute, or maintaining a house where drugs are distributed and possession of a firearm during the commission of a felony, dismissed; is that your testimony? A. Q. A. Q. Well, it's much more complex than that, but yes. Okay. Right. Now, without going through all of it, you probably are Now, you ultimately got the bike back?

very, very familiar with how the system works; wouldn't you agree with that, sir? A. Q. A. Q. What system are you referring to? The judicial system. As it pertains to me. Okay. And you knew back in 1995 that if you cooperated

with the government you would get a break, right? A. Q. A. I hoped to. Okay. Yes.

And you assumed you did?

Like I said, I got the sentence before I ever testified.

I never got a reduction afterward. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Ladd - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. way. Q. But they knew before you --

947

I got less than I could have gotten, let's put it that

They knew before you testified what you were going to say

and what benefit you were going to provide to their case; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And then in 2005, after the events you've

described occurred, you get arrested again, correct? A. Q. Yes. And you're thinking, boy, I need to do anything I can to

try to help myself out on this third bank robbery, right? A. No. Actually I didn't know anything else to tell

anybody. Q. Well, according to what you just told this jury, you knew

about some lawyer who was in possession of machine guns trying to sell them to a guy, didn't you, sir? A. Yes. But I figured if I told them that they would laugh

and forget about it without any other evidence. Q. A. So you didn't tell them that? No, I sure didn't, until I saw that in the paper. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Anything else? No, your Honor.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Mr. Ladd, you may be excused, and I would

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q.

948

advise you not to discuss your testimony with any other person who may be a witness in this matter. Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, if we may approach the bench You may be excused.

about the evidentiary matter. THE COURT: All right. Yes. Is that about your motion?

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Any other witnesses? Mr. Knopp, your Honor.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:

Can we take care of him first? Yes, Your Honor. United States would

like to call Mr. Knopp. THE COURT: You've been sworn in this case previously,

Mr. Knopp, and you're under the same oath that you gave before you began your earlier testimony. THE WITNESS: Yes, sir. DELBERT KNOPP, recalled as a witness, having been previously sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

Mr. Knopp, back when this investigation was ongoing you

were the case agent; is that correct? A. Q. Yes, I was. And you testified previously in the first day of this B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 trial; is that right? A. Q. Yes, I did. Now, I want to ask you some questions about certain

949

materiality portions of this, of the investigation. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. You understand that? I understand that. If someone tells the, tells the ATF, the inspectors that,

and falsely identifies a serial number, is that material to your investigation? A. Q. A. Yes, it would be. Why is that, please? Well, because it would lead us to believe that there is

possibly a criminal violation that has occurred or is occurring, and we would continue our investigation to determine whether the weapon is a lawful weapon and lawfully possessed. Q. All right. You read the indictment about February 19,

2003; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. That's correct. And the D number is not a serial number; is that correct? That's correct. And is it material to your investigation to explore

whether or not the D number is a serial number? A. Yes. When we learned about this, we pursued an

investigation, and found that in fact the D number was not a B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 lawfully registered serial number on any firearm, and we

950

suspected at that time we had an unregistered machine gun, and pursued a full investigation that entailed numerous interviews and a substantial amount of investigation. Q. A. Q. A. Q. You put a lot of manhours in this case; is that correct? That is true. Resources? Yes. Let me ask you this: Was it also material that an

application to transfer a firearm from Mr. Friesen to Dr. Bugg was rejected? A. Q. A. Yes. Why is that, please? Well, again, this is a firearm with a -- that had been

presented as a firearm that we believed at that time was an unlawful firearm, and now it's being presented for transfer to Dr. Bugg, which we believe is also an unlawful firearm. And

it's being falsely represented and, therefore, we have to -it's a continuing part of our investigation. Q. Okay. On the date of the search warrant, June 10th,

2004, Mr. Friesen made a statement to you regarding someone missing some serial numbers; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Was that statement, both statements that you testified

to, that this is the machine gun lawfully registered to him, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25

951

and the statement that the girls, inspectors missed the serial number because they were in a hurry, was that material to the investigation? A. Q. A. Yes, it was. Why is that, please? Well, there again, up until that time the information we

had is he presented a firearm as one that was lawfully registered to him that did not contain a serial number. presents it as one that the inspectors missed the serial number, and, of course, there is some inconsistencies, and we had to follow-up our investigation and determine what the true facts were. Q. All right. And the last count, Count No. 2, the Do you remember that statement? Now he

statement to Haley McGrew. A. Q. Yes.

Where the, where Mr. Friesen stored firearms other than

the second floor; do you remember that? A. Q. A. Yes. Was that material also, please? Yes. Again, that's a storage facility we learned of that We knew firearms coming in the

was in his license premises.

license premises had to be recorded, storage had to be disclosed, and we had to conduct an investigation and ultimately led to a search warrant at his residence, or premises. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Direct/Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. A. Q. You've read the indictment, Agent Knopp? I have. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further, your Honor. Mr. Martin. CROSS-EXAMINATION

952

You understand Count 1 deals with the part number, do you

not, sir? A. It's been some time since I've read it, so I would like

to see it again. Q. A. Q. Count 1. Yes. That's that D number, is it not, that agent, excuse me,

Inspector Rowden found on that gun; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And, as a matter of fact, if we go through every

exhibit, the agent, excuse me, the inspectors were checking out all of the firearms, were they not, sir? A. Q. A. You're talking about -The compliance inspection. Yes. They actually examined the firearm, compared the Do you recall that?

numbers that they saw against the documents they had in their possession at that time. Q. They subsequently requested a search.

And they wrote the numbers down, I'm talking about on the

19th, they wrote the numbers down, right? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes, they did. Okay.

953

And they wrote the numbers down for approximately

60 or 70 firearms, right? A. Q. Yes. And in truth and fact, they are the ones that decided

what numbers to write down as far as serial numbers were concerned, weren't they, sir? A. Yes. They observed the firearms and recorded the serial

numbers. Q. A. Q. And on Count 1, they recorded this D95843, right? Yes. And Count 3, if you need to look at the indictment, deals

with the attempted sale of the firearm to Mr. Bugg, Dr. Bugg? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And on the transfer papers to Dr. Bugg, the serial

number that's written down on those papers for that Sten is E683; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. Yes. And you will agree with me, E683 is the number that's on

the firearm that was registered to Mr. Friesen? A. Yes. It was a firearm with E683 that was registered to

Mr. Friesen. Q. Okay, sir. And Count 4 relates to statements that were

made to you during the search; is that right, sir? A. Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. There's two separate ones? Yes. Okay.

954

One of them has to do with a statement Mr. Friesen

made to you about the girls, I think that's what it says here, the inspectors? A. Q. Yes. And another has to do with the fact that he says the

firearm that you all seized, Government's Exhibit 3.16, was in fact the firearm that was registered to him; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. That's true. And you would agree with me, sir, that neither Inspector

Rowden or Inspector McGrew indicated in any way, shape, or form in their testimony that they told Mr. Friesen they believed he was in possession of an unregistered machine gun? A. No. If I recall the testimony correctly, they told him

they didn't find the serial number that they were looking for on the firearm. Q. Now, from February 19th up until June 10th, February 19,

2003 up until June 10, 2004, no one notified Mr. Friesen that they suspected that he was in possession of an unregistered machine gun, did they, sir? A. Q. No. So he had no reason to be concerned with that firearm;

isn't that true, sir? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

955

Well, he knew that they did not find the serial number on

the firearm they were looking for. Q. Okay. Now, let me -- let me shift gears just a second.

You remember Mr. Erb testifying yesterday? A. Q. Yes. And do you remember in his testimony in particular on

cross-examination with me he went into great detail about documents that you had shown him relating to the register of E683 and approximately 25 other guns. sir? A. Q. Yes, I do. As a matter of fact, he talked about the fact that this Do you remember that,

was a firearm, there was one registry that you showed him, but he went into great detail to talk to you about this May 14th Form 2. A. Q. Do you recall that?

Yes, I do. And there were two forms that I showed him, one dated Do you recall

April 20th, 1986, and one dated May 14th, 1986. that, sir? A. Q. Yes, I do.

And you actually talked to him, did you not, sir, prior

to his testimony, you prepared a reported of interview with him? A. Q. Yes. And you showed him Defendant's Exhibit 100, did you not, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 sir? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Yes, I did.

956

And you showed him this exhibit for the purpose of

finding out if he actually created E683, correct? A. Well, first, I didn't show him Defendant's Exhibit 100.

I showed him that form that's depicted on there. Q. Okay. I understand that. I've highlighted this. I

don't mean to imply -- you showed him the information that's contained on this form, right? A. Q. The form that's on that. Okay. Yes.

And you didn't show him, nor did you discuss with

him, nor did you have any reason to believe there was another form dated May 14th, 1986; isn't that true, sir? A. That's the form I carried out there and showed him on Yes.

that first occasion that we interviewed him. Q.

You never discussed with him a second form dated May

14th, 1986, that day; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. In that period, I didn't even know about it. Okay. As a matter of fact, probably the first time you

found out about this was when we were in court the other day, isn't it, sir? A. Well, I had observed the exhibit, sir, the certified

copies that contained the later exhibit; however, I didn't make the connection. Q. So the first time you even realized this form was B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 20 21 22 23 24 25

957

different than the blue ribbon was when we were in court the other day and I pointed it out on cross-examination; isn't that true? A. Well, prior to that I had reviewed documents where they

had disallowed a form, and then made -- had him make corrections to his receivers, and then they approved it after re-examined it. Q. A. After the trial started? Yes. Or right before it started. Whenever the documents

from Atlanta came in. Q. And those came after -- those came after we had already

picked this jury? A. Q. Yes. I believe so.

So the statements under oath to this jury about talking

to you about that form dated May 14th, 1986 are incorrect; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. I didn't understand that. The statements that Charles Erb made to this jury under

oath about discussing a form, ATF Form 2 dated May 14th, 1986, with you, are untrue; isn't that true, sir? A. I don't recall that. I know we went through the form and

the guns and whatnot.

As far as whether we discussed a May I don't recall

form, the latter form, I don't believe so. that.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Mr. Knopp, in your interview with Mr. Erb back in Q.

958

You and I had a conversation where I stood right there

and talked to you about this form and the May 14th form, didn't we, sir? A. Q. Yes, I believe we did. And you advised me in that conversation that you never

talked to him about the May 14th, 1986 form; isn't that true, sir? A. Yes, I believe that's correct. MR. MARTIN: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further, your Honor. Any redirect? Just briefly, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION One moment, your Honor.

Pennsylvania, you showed him how many forms? A. Q. A. Q. One form. That's Form 2, the birthing document; is that correct? That's correct. In fact, you thought that was the correct document; is

that correct? A. Yes. That was the firearms that were manufactured

containing the suspect firearm that we were looking at. Q. From your investigation and from all the testimony that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q.

959

occurred in the last couple of days, does that mean there are two sets of E Erb guns running around with the same numbers? A. Q. A. No. Why not? Because, as I just stated and we heard from Erb, that is

the original form the inspectors went in and disallowed it, they made him make some corrections to his firearms, and then he resubmitted another form. MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further. RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Defendant's Exhibit 100 you obtained from the National

Firearm Branch of Washington, D.C.; isn't that true, sir? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. That's true. This exhibit here -That form. This exhibit dated April 20th, 1986; isn't that true? Yes. And you contacted Washington, D.C. and said, I need the

birthing document for E683, and they send you this form which is not in the blue ribbon documents that's been introduced as a state's exhibit; isn't that true, sir? A. I got that form from the National Firearm Registration

and Transfer Record at that time, and yes, it is not the same form that is in the blue ribbon document. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Knopp ~ Recross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. Did you get the official certified form, blue ribbon Honor? THE COURT: One. REDIRECT EXAMINATION Q.

960

And the National Firearms Registration Branch is the same

people that made the blue ribbon documents; is that correct, sir? A. Q. Yes, it is. Yes.

So they gave you a form different from the one that they

brought to court? A. Yes. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: Nothing further. May I have one follow-up question, your

fancy stuff when you called up Washington, D.C.? A. No. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further.

Agent Knopp, you may be excused.

You need another short recess? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes.

Is that your last witness? Yes.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Ladies and gentlemen, we have another

evidentiary matter before this next witness testifies, so we're going to, Ms. Youngberg will take you back to the jury room up B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

961 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here, and we'll be in recess about ten minutes. All rise while the jury exits. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega. Yes. For the record, your Honor, the same

MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN:

motion in limine I filed on 404(b) would also apply to Ms. LeMaster, and it's my understanding Mr. Kumiega intends to introduce multiple forms, I don't know if it's 3s or 4s, signed by her as alleged evidence of other offenses dating back to, like, 1996. I think the most current one is '96 or '97. Is that right? It's all part of my 404(b), your Honor,

THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: that I filed. THE COURT:

Based upon the motion and the response to

the motion, the Court is going to rule that it's -- overrule the defendant's objection to the 404(b) evidence based upon what's been represented in the motions. I think what we'll do is just have a short meeting in chambers, in the library in chambers, we'll need to put that on the record too. So we'll adjourn to chambers where, Mr.

Kumiega, I'll meet and discuss your motion. (The following was had in chambers, with the Court, Mr. Kumiega, Mr. Jeffrey Byers, and Ms. Terri Dennis:) B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

962 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Dennis. THE COURT: THE WITNESS: this it was LeMaster. THE COURT: Ms. Dennis, the government has filed a Is it Ms. LeMaster Dennis? Actually Dennis, but when they filed THE COURT: This is in Case Number CR-2008-41-L,

United States of America, plaintiff, versus Larry Douglas Friesen. This hearing is being held in judge's chambers based

upon a motion filed by Assistant United States Attorney Mr. Ed Kumiega. LeMaster? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes. Present in chambers are Ms. -- you are Terri

Ms. LeMaster, Mr. Kumiega, and Mr. -- Ms. Would you identify

LeMaster has been appointed counsel. yourself for the record. MR. BYERS:

Jeff Byers for the witness Terri LeMaster

motion asking the Court to grant you what's called use immunity based upon the information that you may take the Fifth Amendment and refuse to testify or answer his questions based upon your right against self-incrimination. And is it my

understanding from counsel that Ms. LeMaster intends to take the Fifth Amendment to certain questions. MR. BYERS: immunity. That would be the case if not granted

Yes, Judge. And you understand if I grant use

THE COURT:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

963 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 immunity, Ms. LeMaster, you will be granted immunity from any kind of prosecution relating to your testimony other than the possible prosecution for perjury if you perjure yourself under oath. But -- so in other words, you cannot incriminate So if the Court grants

yourself if you can't be prosecuted.

use immunity, anything you testify could not then be used against you in any future prosecution against you. Do you understand basically, have you consulted with your attorney and do you understand if the Court grants you use immunity then you will be, you will have to testify and you will have to answer questions asked you by the United States and by Mr. Friesen's attorney? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes.

And the only thing could happen as a

result of your answers would be if you did perjure yourself. You understand that? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes.

And you understand if you would still

refuse after being granted immunity, if you would still refuse you could be held in contempt of court and incarcerated. you understand that? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Yes. Do

Mr. Kumiega, anything further that's --

other than what's in your motion? MR. KUMIEGA: No, your Honor.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

964 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: Well, based upon the motion and the

Court's review of all of the factors in it, it will be the order of the Court and I will sign the order electronically, but it will be the order of the Court that Terri LeMaster Dennis, has been called to testify and provide other information, it will be -- and the Court has -- based upon the judgement of the United States Attorney that she's refused to testify based upon statement of counsel, and provide other information based on her privilege against self-incrimination, the Court has reviewed also the letter with approval from the assistant attorney general in charge of the criminal division of the United States Department of Justice, and the Court has also determined that the testimony and other information from Ms. Dennis LeMaster, LeMaster Dennis may be necessary to public interest. And, therefore, the Court, pursuant to United States

Code 6002, 6003, that Terri Dennis, Terri LeMaster be required, orders that she be required to testify and provide other information recorded in the above matter, that is the matter against Larry Douglas Friesen, and testify and provide other information in such proceedings resulting in this trial or similar matters thereto. It will be ordered that Ms. Dennis is

hereby granted immunity from the use against her any other criminal case of any testimony or other information compelled under such order or any information directly or indirectly derived from this testimony or other information except that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

965 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 the above does not immunize Ms. LeMaster Dennis against charges of perjury giving a false statement or otherwise failing to comply with the order of the Court. Are there any questions you have or Ms. LeMaster has? THE WITNESS: THE COURT: I don't have any. Anything further?

Okay. No.

MR. KUMIEGA: MR. BYERS:

Nothing, Judge.

(The following was had in open court, without the jury's presence:) THE COURT: first of all. Ms. Youngberg, I've signed the order relating to Ms. Dennis. Mr. Kumiega, you indicated Mr. Martin had another issue. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: I have an issue, your Honor. Okay. The reason I'm bringing this to the Mr. Kumiega, I'm going to sign that order

Court's attention, during the course of this investigation and during the course of trial we had word that Ms. Dennis, Ms. LeMaster Dennis was going to invoke her right to the Fifth Amendment under the United States Constitution. I had a

conversation with her now court-appointed attorney, Jeff Byers, and Mr. Byers informed me that according to his client, Mr. Friesen went over to Ms. LeMaster's office at the Oklahoma B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

966 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 County courthouse where she's a bailiff for Judge Deason, and my understanding of the information Mr. Byers gave me is that Mr. Friesen walked into the bailiff's office, saw Ms. Dennis, dropped down two reports of interview, the first report of interview of '04 with Ms. Dennis, second report of interview in '08, and the government's partial, a portion of the United States' motion for 404(b), said something to her like, this is what the government said about me, turned around and walked out. Days later, Mr. Byers informed me, is that Mr. Friesen on his own letterhead went to Ms. Dennis, and there are five different sentences here, five different areas of inquiry, had Ms. Dennis look at it, and Ms. Dennis signed it, again my understanding, I'm not sure if Mr. Friesen was accompanied by somebody or he did it by himself, but the proffer again from Mr. Byers is that Ms. Dennis signed this documents after only partially reading it, and gave it to Mr. -- and had her sign it and took it back to wherever. As soon as I heard this information Friday, I contacted Mack Martin. I did not know about the affidavit, but I got it The United States believes that this is

at a later date.

borderline witness intimidation, and I would like to ask the Court if I can go into this inquiry with Ms. Dennis regarding Mr. Friesen's contacts after the indictment with the United States' witness, your Honor. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

967 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Mr. Martin. Well, your Honor, I think it more

appropriate that Mr. Kumiega maybe get his information from Ms. LeMaster or Ms. Dennis, or maybe if we need to have an in camera hearing as to what occurred. But be that as it may, I

don't think providing a witness, if what Mr. Kumiega says is accurate, providing a witness with their reports that are written by a law enforcement is witness intimidation, coupled with the statement, here is what they said you say about me, or something like that. With nothing more I don't know see how It gives her an

that borders on any type of intimidation.

opportunity to see what somebody had written that she said. THE COURT: Any objection, Mr. Martin, to Mr. Kumiega

asking Ms. Dennis on her examination what occurred in her -MR. MARTIN: I don't see how I can hardly object to I mean --

that, but, you know, what she says, she says. THE COURT:

You're just asking the Court if it's

permissible to go into in your examination of Ms. Lemaster as to what contact she had with Mr. Friesen after this indictment has come down? MR. KUMIEGA: Right. And just prior to trial, your

And again, I wanted to bring this to the Court's

attention so we'll have no heated side bar regarding that information. I did this out of an abundance of caution again. Thank you, Mr. Kumiega. Unless there is

THE COURT:

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

968 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 it? MR. KUMIEGA: exhibit, your Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Okay. It is. Eleven. Eleven? You've marked it and it's an exhibit. I'll just look at it here. I think it was a standby kind? MR. KUMIEGA: No, it isn't. I would like to show the some objection, I don't see any problem with Mr. Kumiega asking about -- I don't know what all her testimony is going to be, I don't know what all they are going to get into, but I don't see any difference in that than what you asked him what contact she's had with agents and other people, Mr. Martin. MR. MARTIN: Let me ask one question, Ed. Do you

intend to go into the affidavit? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. I think that's part and parcel of

what was, what she signed. MR. MARTIN: understood. THE COURT: Is that already, is that an exhibit of any Okay. I just want to make sure I

Court the exhibit, if possible. THE COURT: It's not in any of my exhibit books, is

Anything further? Your Honor, I will object if we get to

MR. MARTIN:

it, to the affidavit, if it's offered, but I'll just make that B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

969 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Honor. MR. KUMIEGA: it's not hearsay. THE COURT: Why isn't it hearsay? It's her, she signed it. She's It's a sworn document from the witness, part of the record. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: But -- if we get to that point. What grounds will you object? Well, number one, it's hearsay, your

MR. KUMIEGA:

ascribing to the statements under oath. MR. MARTIN: Well, then I'll just introduce a bunch of

affidavits tomorrow and rest. MR. KUMIEGA: She's going to -- this document was

handed to her and she signed it. THE COURT: We'll cross that bridge when the document

is introduced, if we come to it. Let's have the jury come in, Ms. Youngberg. (The jury was brought into court.) THE COURT: You may call your next witness. Thank you, your Honor. The United

MR. KUMIEGA:

States would like to call Terri Lemaster Dennis, please. THE COURT: Ms. Dennis, if you'll come forward,

please, and be sworn.

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. TERRI DENNIS, called as a witness, having been duly sworn, testifies as follows: DIRECT EXAMINATION

970

Ma'am, can you introduce yourself to the Court and spell

the last name, please? A. Terri LeMaster now Dennis. The Terri is with an I, And my married name is

T-E-R-R-I, L-E, capital M-A-S-T-E-R. Dennis, D-E-N-N-I-S. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

You're currently married; is that correct? Yes. And are you currently employed, please? Yes, I am. Can you tell the jury about that, please? I work at the Oklahoma County courthouse for a judge, I'm

a bailiff. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. 1983. Q. All right. Here in Oklahoma County? And what judge do you work for, please? Donald Deason. And how long have you worked for Mr. Deason, please? Nine years. And prior to that, who else did you work for, please? Various judges. I've been in the court system since

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Yes.

971

Ma'am, you're testifying under a grant of use community

from the United States government; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Can you tell the jury in your own words what type of

immunity you think you received from the United States, please? A. For anything that might be alleged that I might have been

involved in a crime in this investigation. Q. A. Q. Is that your understanding? Yes. Do you understand that that use immunity goes to any Do you

question I ask you regarding any previous activities? understand that? A. Q. Yes.

Do you also understand, ma'am, that the use immunity

granted by the United States does not go to perjury, if you perjure yourself under oath today. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. In other words, what is perjury, please? Not telling the truth. Under oath? Yes. And you understand you're under oath today? Yes, I do. All right. Ma'am, at one time you had a relationship Do you understand that?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 with Mr. Friesen; is that correct? A. Q. Yes.

972

And can you tell the jury the nature of that relationship

and what it was, please? A. We had a personal relationship, and I did work for him in

his law firm. Q. A. Q. A. Q. All right. And what time frame, please?

In the early '90s. All right. And how long did you date him, please? Maybe six years.

I'm not sure.

Beginning when and ending when, if you can tell the jury,

and if there are certain events in your life that would then key you when that relationship was terminated or ended? A. I don't recall the exact time we started dating. I think

I quit dating him and working for him sometime around 1994 the first time. Q. All right. Let me ask you this: You were involved in

certain firearms activity also with Mr. Friesen; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. All right. In general, can you tell the jury how you

assisted him in his firearms business, please? A. Setting up the firearms at the state fairgrounds when

they would have gun shows. Q. All right. Anything else?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. As far as the gun sales? Yes. The business end of it, please.

973

I may have helped fill out some of the forms when the I don't recall if I

people were there to purchase firearms. did or not. Q. A. Q. Okay. You don't remember that?

I don't.

I don't know if I did or not.

Now, recently, ma'am, you were subpoenaed for trial in

this very matter; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And in the last month or so, if you remember when, I

believe this is end of August 2008, did Mr. Friesen pay a call to your office, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes. August 2008? I believe it was that time period. And were you, again, working where? For Judge Deason. And can you tell the jury the events that happened when

you were working at that office and when Mr. Friesen came to your office, please? A. It was just to let me know there were inconsistencies in

the two or three meetings that I had had with agents and you. Q. A. All right. And I might want to know that they were there. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. All right.

974

Tell us how that -- tell us what he did, how

that happened. A. Just told me that there were inconsistencies, gave me the

papers, and that was it. Q. A. All right. And what papers did he give you?

The interview, the first interview that I did, I believe

the second and third interview, and one sheet out of some motion. Q. A. Q. I'm not sure what it is.

You gave two interviews, if you remember? No. I believe I've given three. And you got copies of all those

You gave three.

interviews? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I do now. All right. Yes. Was somebody accompanying Mr. Friesen? On that day I don't know. All right. We were busy. Yes. Did he give it to you in your office?

And he said something to you when he gave you

the documents? A. Just that I might want to know that there were

discrepancies in the different reports. Q. All right. Did he also give you a United States pleading

in the case, a motion? A. There was one paper that was attached to the reports of I don't know what it was.

my -- when I would talk to you guys.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. A. Q. Okay. There was only one page in there. Who did you give that document to ultimately? Jeff Byers. All right.

975

Was there a follow-up with Mr. Friesen, and Do you remember that?

again he visited you at your office? A. Q. A. Q. Yes.

And that's dated August 22nd, 2008; is that correct? Yes. And -MR. KUMIEGA: Agent, if you can show her Government's

Exhibit No. 11, please. Q. (By Mr. Kumiega) Ms. Dennis, if you can look at

Government's Exhibit No. 11 and see if that document in fact is accurate? A. Q. A. Q. A. Yes. Is that the document that he handed to you? Yes, it is. Is that a document you signed? Yes, it is. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United

States would move for introduction of Government's Exhibit 11 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: hearing, your Honor. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Same objection we made in the in-camera

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: matter asserted? MR. KUMIEGA: No. It's offered to prove that the

976

Is this being offered for the truth of the

actual acts occurred and it is not offered to prove the truth of the matter asserted. THE COURT: admitted. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. yes. Q. All right. And who was Mr. Friesen with when he gave you (By Mr. Kumiega) I did. And did you read it fully before you signed it? I glanced at it. Yes. Ma'am, did you sign that document? Objection will be overruled. It will be

What do you mean "glanced at it"? I glanced over it, and maybe overbroad in some areas, but

that document? A. Q. A. Q. One of the members of his staff. Do you know who that was? I don't know her name. And there is also a notary republic, or notary public Was that person there when that

towards the bottom left. document was signed? A. Q. A.

I believe that was the person that was with him. And for the record, what's that person's name, please? Brandy Day. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

977

And can you tell the jury, how long this activity took

before you, when you signed it and, with the government exhibit, please? A. Q. then? A. Q. Less than five minutes. Well, if you glanced at it, it's not going to take you I'm sorry? Do what?

How long do it take you to read this and do what with it,

five minutes. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. No. And you signed it and you did what with it, please? I signed it and Mr. Friesen took it. Was it notarized in your presence? No. All right. And in truth and fact, it's on whose

letterhead, please? A. Q. Mr. Friesen's. All right. Now, let me ask you this: You said that you

have reports of interview with the United States government; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And one report, one interview was quite lengthy; is that

right? A. Q. Yes. And do you remember where the interview took place? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I believe at the, the IRS, in that building. The IRS building? Right. Right next to the Colcord? Right. But that was -- it wasn't in the IRS office? No, it was not in their office. Whose office was it, if you remember? I don't remember. If I told you it was ATF, you wouldn't -That would be correct. Okay.

978

And there were at least two agents there and the If you remember.

secretary and myself; is that right? A.

I don't remember a secretary but, yes, there were two

agents and yourself. Q. All right. Let me ask you this: You talked about your

relationship with Mr. Friesen; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And then you talked about your activities at gun shows

with Mr. Friesen; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. You, in fact, went to Mr. Friesen's home and assisted him

with doing some type of repairs on firearms; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. And do you remember I was questioning you about bluing B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 guns; is that correct? A. Q. Yes.

979

And can you give the jury the sense of the type of work

you would do with firearms with Mr. Friesen, please? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I'm not sure what you mean by the type of work. How do you aid him in his gun stuff? In setting them up? No. In repairing them.

Bluing. You blued guns with him? Yes. Can you tell the jury for those that don't know what does

it mean to blue a gun? A. I don't know that I can even tell you anymore what it It was cleaning them up.

means. Q. A. Q.

Did you help him with that? Yes. And did you ever talk -- did he ever talk to you about

the serial numbers? A. Q. Yes. And what did he say about bluing guns and the serial

numbers, please? A. Q. A. He was adamant not to mess up any number on the firearm. Especially what area? The serial numbers, any numbers that were on there. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. Q. A. Q. All right. Right. Don't mess with it?

980

Did you know about Mr. Friesen's enthusiasm for certain

type, I guess, exotic weapons, automatic weapons and silencers? A. Q. A. Q. A. I knew he had an interest in them. Right. Did you ever see some of them?

Yes, I did. What type of weapons did you see, please? A Gatling gun, Uzis, rifles, and pistols with built-in Things of that sort. And about what time frame, again, did you see

silencers. Q.

All right.

Mr. Friesen with these firearms? A. It would have been when I lived in a duplex that was I'm not sure

connected to his, or he was still in that duplex. what that time period was. first part of '96. Q. All right. MR. KUMIEGA:

Probably prior to -- up through the

Your Honor, may the agent display the

machine gun to the witness? THE COURT: Yes. Ma'am, what I have here is Government's

(By Mr. Kumiega)

Exhibit 3.16. A.

Do you remember seeing that firearm? I cannot tell you that it

I remember seeing a Sten gun.

was this one but, yes, I know what it is. Q. Do you remember us showing you this Sten gun in the ATF B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 office in January of 2008? A. Q. A. Yes. You showed me two of them.

981

All right.

And did that Sten gun look familiar to you? It could be -- I know that he

It looks like Sten gun. Yes.

had a Sten gun. Q. A. Q. A.

How do you know he had a Sten gun? I had seen it. Under what circumstances, ma'am, did you see a Sten gun? I had seen most of the firearms that he had during the

course of setting up gun shows, being over at his duplex, things of that sort. Q. All right. The type of gun you saw, you called it a Sten

gun; is that correct? A. Q. A. Yes. How did you know it's a Sten gun? I did not remember what a Sten gun looked like until I

was presented with a picture by your office. Q. All right. Does that refresh your recollection about

what a Sten gun now looks like? A. Q. Yes. All right. Is that the type of gun Mr. Friesen showed

you when you were -- were dating him? A. Q. I believe so. All right. Now, did he also tell you that that gun was a

machine gun? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Direct 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A.

982

I don't -- I don't recall whether it was said it was a I may have assumed that, he may have said that, I

machine gun. don't recall. Q.

You're saying you're not a hundred percent sure; is that

correct? A. Q. I'm not a hundred percent sure. Do you remember when Mr. Friesen displayed that gun to

you, what you believe is a Sten gun, the last time you saw it? A. Q. I do not remember the last time I saw it. No.

Do you remember making a statement to ATF back in January

of 2008, January 22nd, 2008, about when you saw that machine gun? A. They asked me to try to pinpoint a time, and I said I

believed it might have been before the bombing. Q. A. Q. A. was. Q. Okay. And that was the type of gun that was displayed to What bombing is that? 1995. The Oklahoma City bombing? Yes. But I couldn't be certain, that's what my belief

you by Mr. Friesen that you assume was a machine gun? A. Q. As far as I can recall. All right. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Your Honor, may I have a moment? Yes.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. (Brief pause) MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: No other questions, your Honor.

983

You may cross-examine. CROSS-EXAMINATION

Would it be fair to say, Ms. Dennis, that -- do you go by

Ms. Dennis or Ms. LeMaster? A. Q. Dennis. Okay. Would it be fair to say, Ms. Dennis, that although

you were interviewed three times by the government, they didn't give you any of the reports that they prepared of those interviews? A. Q. No, they did not. Okay. And the first time you knew what had been

purportedly written about what you said was when those were provided to you by my client, right? A. Q. Correct. Okay. And you were left those along with one page from a

motion. A. Q.

Did you read those, ma'am? That's why I contacted an attorney.

Yes, I did. Okay.

And were you concerned because you found

inaccuracies in what was written in the report and what you recalled saying, ma'am? A. Q. Yes, I was. Okay. And as a matter of fact, that's what prompted --

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. this is Government's Exhibit, I think it's, it's been introduced as 11. A. Q. Correct. This is the affidavit, right?

984

And as a matter of fact, it's, there's no deception to

it, it's right here on it for the world to see, it's on my client's letterhead, isn't it? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Yes, it is. There's no deception about that, is there? No. Okay. Yes. And you say it might be a little broad in certain areas? Yes. Okay. Let me ask you, ma'am: The first sentence says: And you said you've read this?

"I've read over the report of investigation made herein by Delbert Knopp dated February 13, 2008." Is that true, ma'am? Yes. Okay. The second part says:

"I did not make any, quote, straw purchases, end quote, for Doug Friesen." Is that true, ma'am? Yes, it is. The third one is that: "Only 4473s I filled out were for guns I purchased and B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. A.

985

all these guns have since been resold or stolen from me." Is that correct, ma'am? They were for the ones I assumed I had purchased, and I I think they were all

don't believe I resold any of them. taken from me. Q. A. Q. A. Q. Taken from you? Stolen. Stolen. No. Okay. All right.

Mr. Friesen had nothing to do with that?

So you assume the Form 4473s related

to the guns you purchased? A. Q. Correct. Okay. "That I advised Mr. Knopp I had purchased a Baby Eagle from Doug Friesen, but not a baby Uzi." Is that correct? Correct. Okay. Number 5:

"That I never saw Doug Friesen with a machine gun prior to him being licensed to have machine guns." Is that correct? To the best of my knowledge. Okay. Yes.

And there is only five sentences, it doesn't take

very long to read this, does it, ma'am? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Cross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. Correct.

986

And because you work in the courthouse you understand,

obviously, the significance of signing a document under oath, a notarized document; is that right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. Now, you had, I guess, met with the government in If you recall. Yes.

2004; is that right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. I believe so.

And then twice in 2008, right? Yes. Okay. No. Okay. And until you were provided these written reports And you didn't go before the grand jury, did you?

did you have a clue what the government had written down about what you said, ma'am? A. Q. No, I did not. And I believe your testimony was that today you're not

certain if this is the gun you saw Mr. Friesen with or not; is that correct? A. Q. I cannot say it's the exact gun he had. Okay. All right. No.

But when pressed for a time period by

agents as to when you saw it, I think you told them you're not certain, but you were pressed for a time and you gave them a date; is that right, ma'am? A. I tried to go back and do a time line based on things B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Cross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. happening in my life.

987

And I remember when I married Mr. Cook

and I was trying to base it on that time line, so I thought it was prior to that. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. When did you marry Mr. Cook? April 1st of '96. April 1st of 1996? Yes. Okay. Yes. Okay. And you can't give us an exact date, obviously? So it was sometime prior to April 1st of 1996?

I cannot give you an exact date. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: (Brief pause) MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Nothing further. Any redirect? Yes, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION May I have just a moment, your Honor? Yes.

MR. KUMIEGA:

Ma'am, you did make the statement that's memorialized in

the government's report dated January 22, '08 about seeing what you thought was a Sten machine gun? MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, I don't think it's If he's got a specific

appropriate to lead the witness. question -- I object.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q. A. Q. Q. MR. KUMIEGA: regarding the report. THE COURT:

988

I'm impeaching the witness, your Honor,

Why don't you show it to her and see if it

refreshes her recollection. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: May I approach? Yes. Ms. LeMaster, if you can look at No.

(By Mr. Kumiega)

21, please. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A.

Does that refresh your recollection?

As to what? As to the statement. That I believe it was before the bombing? That's what the report says? That's what I had said at that time. Yes.

Can you read that statement to the jury, please? "She stated she observed this gun before their breakup and was certain that occurred prior to the Oklahoma City bombing incident in 1995." And do you know what date the bomb went off? April 19th. During that period of time, ma'am, you also -- excuse me.

Strike that. During the interview with the ATF, do you remember the ATF showing you some 4473 documents? A. I did not recall seeing them. I recall a document in

front of him that he had, but I do not recall seeing them. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Q.

989

Would you say -- how would you categorize the meeting at

the ATF back in January of 2008? A. I'm not sure I understand how you mean how would I

categorize. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Was it contentious? At the ATF office? Yes. Yes. It was contentious? I believe so. And what was -- what was contentious about it? There were times that it felt like you were playing good

cop/bad cop. Q. A. Q. A. Really? Seriously. So you're saying that these statements are incorrect? I'm saying that I don't believe that they are down

exactly as they were stated. Q. All right. But you did say what you read to the jury; is

that right? A. Q. Yes. Okay. No fault of anyone other than what you told the

agents; is that right? A. Q. As to the bombing, believing it was before then? Yes. B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. You testified today, as I recall, that you told the A. Q. Correct, because at that time that's what I believed. Okay.

990

And you thought about it after you saw the reports

of interview given to you by Mr. Friesen? A. Yes. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Nothing further, your Honor.

Anything further, Mr. Martin? Very briefly. RECROSS-EXAMINATION

agents that you could not be certain about the time; is that right? A. Q. Do you recall just testifying to that prior? I told them that today. Did you tell

Yes.

But in the report it says you were certain.

them you weren't certain, or did you tell them you were certain? A. No. I do believe at the time I said I'm not certain, but

I believe it was around the bombing. Q. All right. And did you feel like in that interview with

the -- that you were being pressured by the government into trying to make you say something that you didn't know or didn't believe? A. I felt like I was being pressured for a period of time

that I wasn't certain of. Q. To give answers that you weren't certain of? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Recross/Redirect 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. KUMIEGA: Q. A. Q. A. Q. Ma'am, can you look at Government's Exhibit 11.1? Okay. Do you know what that is? It's a time line I tried to work up for Mr. Knopp. Okay. And you -- how did you give it to Mr. Knopp, A. To be more accurate. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: Yes.

991

Nothing further. Briefly, your Honor. REDIRECT EXAMINATION

please? A. Q. A. I left it at the Oklahoma County DA's office. Because why? Because I'm not certain of times and I was trying to

refresh my own memory and think about the times that these things happened. Q. You know Mr. Knopp works at the district attorney's

office now; is that correct? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And this is your handiwork; is that correct? Yes. Okay. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, may I approach to make sure

there is no other innocuous notations on that document? THE COURT: May you approach the witness?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Redirect/Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 BY MR. MARTIN: Q. Ms. Dennis, do you have Exhibit 11.1 in front of you? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Q. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes.

992

Okay. Ma'am, does that document also contain

(By Mr. Kumiega)

your handwriting? A. Q. Yes, it does. Okay. Ma'am, the question I have is, if the meeting was

so contentious, why did you attempt to do a follow-up? A. Because I was trying to be certain of dates, and I am not

certain of dates. Q. All right. The question is: If it was so contentious,

why did you try to aid the ATF in the investigation? A. Because I don't want anything that I have said to be I wanted to make sure that I was as accurate as I could

wrong.

be, and I told Mr. Knopp I would try to do a time line. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, at this time the United

States would move introduction of Government's Exhibit 11.1 into evidence. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: MR. MARTIN: Hearsay, your Honor. Will be admitted. Nothing further, your Honor. May I have a moment, your Honor? We've

introduced a brand-new document in this last bit of direct. RECROSS-EXAMINATION

Dennis - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Yes, I do. Okay. You prepared that document?

993

Yes, I did. Okay. It appears there's an address at the top in 1990. I've got to push the button

It should be on the monitor. there. A. Q.

Is this your residence in 1990, ma'am?

Yes. Okay. It's on that monitor, if it helps you. And did

you move in 1992, you think? A. Q. As the best of my recollection. Yes.

Are you saying this document, there might be some

inaccuracies in this document, ma'am? A. line. Q. Okay. And you worked for Mr. Friesen through part of There might be, but I'm pretty sure that's a good time

'93, and then worked for another attorney there, Mr. Thetford? A. Q. A. Q. 1993? A. Q. A. Q. Yes. And then you started dating him again in '94? Yes. "Him" meaning my client, Doug? B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 Yes. That is another attorney, right? Yes, it is. Okay. And you quit working and dating him you think in

Dennis - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 A. Q. A. Q. Yes. All right.

994

You think in '95 or '96 you would have done

one gun show and you lived on Northwest 17th Street, right? A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Q. A. Correct. And you don't know which year it was? No. Doug lived on 804 Northwest 8th? Yes. Do you know the period of time that is, ma'am? I don't know when he moved out of that duplex. Okay. He lived in it when I lived in the one that was connected

to it. Q. Okay. And then this bottom says:

"Council to Tenth, Tenth to Davis, Davis to"-Is that directions on how to get there? Correct. Okay. And that was provided to Mr. Knopp after this, for

lack of a better word, contentious interview in an attempt to provide them with some type of a time line; is that correct? A. Q. Yes. Okay. And Mr. Knopp working for the DA's office is in

the adjoining building next to yours, right, where you work? A. Q. Yes. Okay. All right.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

Dennis - Recross 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Kumiega? MR. KUMIEGA: witnesses, your Honor. THE COURT: No. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Nothing further. No further questions, your Honor.

995

Ms. Dennis, you may be excused, and I

would advise you you're not to discuss the testimony you've given here with other persons who may be a witness in this matter. THE WITNESS: THE COURT: Thank you.

You may be excused.

Call your next witness. MR. KUMIEGA: Judge, with certain housekeeping

matters, the government is on the cusp of resting; however, I think there might be some motions at the bench regarding other exhibits that I would like to discuss with the Court. THE COURT: admitted? Okay. What exhibits are not introduced or

What are your housekeeping matters? First of all, there's the certificates,

MR. KUMIEGA: 1.7, 1.8 and 1.9. THE COURT:

Do you have any other witnesses, Mr.

We don't intend to call any more

So we can take up these matters outside

the presence of the jury? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, sir. Ladies and gentlemen of the jury,

Okay.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

996 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 we're going to recess for the evening, it appears to be a good time to take a break. We will reconvene at a new time tomorrow

to try to get as much as we can done, we will reconvene at 9:15 in the morning. Does that create a problem for anybody? And

probably work until about this time tomorrow evening.

Once

again, I remind you that we will not -- we'll take a break in the trial on Thursday and Friday, but we will reconvene on Monday morning. tomorrow. So we'll figure out what time, see how we do

And hopefully we can come close to completing the

case Monday. With that, again, I advise you to not read anything or listen to any news reports or do any research on your own on the internet or anything else regarding the subject matter of this case or this case or the parties involved therein, also do not reach any conclusions until you've heard all the evidence and I've instructed you on the law. With that, have a good

evening, what's left of it, and we'll see you in the morning at 9:15. (The jury exits the courtroom, after which the following was had in open court:) THE COURT: Mr. Kumiega. Yes, your Honor.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:

What else do we have to take care of? Your Honor, the United States attempted That's the negative

to introduce Government's Exhibit 1.7.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

997 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 certificate from the ATF about the D98543 serial number, 1.8, and that's the tube. THE COURT: I have 1.7 as admitted. I do not, your Honor. Okay.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN:

You don't?

Your Honor, I don't have it admitted. Ms. Youngberg doesn't, and she's the -That was the one I objected to, I said it

was prepared specifically for the purpose of -- it was not an official record, it was prepared specifically for the purpose of litigation in this case. THE COURT: Let me relook at it here. And, your Honor, I would point to the

MR. KUMIEGA:

Court Rule 803 10 that might aid the Court in its analysis. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: What rule? Your Honor, Federal Rules of Evidence

803 hearsay exceptions, and 8 is public records and reports and number 10 is absence of public records or entry. THE COURT: Mr. Martin, any additional comment

regarding the applicability of 803 paragraph 10 as an exception to the hearsay? MR. MARTIN: not public records. Your Honor, I would first state these are I can't just walk up to the ATF and say

let me know -- these are taxpayer records, and I don't think I can obtain them that way, and that's what these relate to, B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

998 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 records? MR. MARTIN: Well, and also that this document was absence of public records, and I don't think this makes that an exception to the hearsay rule. THE COURT: Based solely on these are not public

prepared -- the earlier objection that I made, your Honor, was that these documents were prepared specifically for the purpose of the prosecution of this matter, which is another reason to exclude it as hearsay. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, the response of the United It's

States is that this is -- says public office or agency. got nothing to do with public record. of a non-event.

It shows the occurrence

Mr. Friesen did not have a firearm registered

on the D number, and that's the, I guess, the matter in contention. Under that rule, as long as a certified document

-- they searched and did a diligent search from my memory, remembering the testimony of Denise Brown, I think the law is pretty legion that that's allowed to be introduced, your Honor. MR. MARTIN: But the only response, your Honor, is it

then becomes cumulative, because Denise Brown has already testified to the content of document. MR. KUMIEGA: objection, your Honor. THE COURT: The Court finds that the exhibit should be The Court find it is a Because of Mr. Mack Martin's original

admitted; I'll overrule the objection.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

999 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 1.8. public record, or public records were examined under the certificate and it does fit the excepted hearsay rule under 803, paragraph 10, and the Court will admit the Exhibit No. 1.7 and overrule the objection. MR. KUMIEGA: admit 1.8 and 1.9. Your Honor. The government proffers to

1.8 is the NFA search records of the tube That's

that was presented, that's actually been presented. Government's Exhibit No. 8. THE COURT: I'm sorry. 1.8?

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT:

Yes, your Honor.

You said Exhibit 8. The actual tube is Exhibit 8. Oh, okay. 1.8, your Honor, is a companion document And 1.9 is

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:

to show that it's a registered machine gun.

transfer application where the application was denied by ATF regarding the transfer of the firearm in contention, E683, with the purported transfer to Dr. Bugg, who testified about it today, and I think that's Government's Exhibit 5, another document that Mr. -- Dr. Bugg brought to the Court today, your Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: Any objection, Mr. Martin? Your Honor, I had earlier objected to

1.9 I object too, because I'll advise the Court that as

of today, my client will testify about it in this case, he has B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1000 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Honor. MR. MARTIN: MR. KUMIEGA: If they have it, I don't have it, Judge. It's my understanding that's what the never been officially notified, never received any notice from the ATF that the transfer to James Howard Bugg was not approved. And there is no supporting documentation other than

some letter here that -- or this September 5th, 2008, and I don't see any supporting documentation for that, your Honor, and I object because there is just nothing in there to support this finding, even. MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, I believe they rejected the

application because E683 on that machine gun is not the right serial number, and it was rejected. government's evidence. THE COURT: Do you have the rejection? Do you have That's part of the

the letter rejecting it? MR. KUMIEGA: certificate. Yes, your Honor. It's in the

Yes, sir. Where is it? It's in 1.8. Excuse me. It's 1.9, your

THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:

certificate purports to be. THE COURT: All 1.9 says is that it's Ms. Brown's Do you have the supporting document

search of the records.

that shows that that transfer was not approved? MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, my mistake. 1.9 I have

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1001 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 here, your Honor. It says:

"After a diligent search of said record, I certify the firearm described below is registered to Larry Douglas Friesen doing business as Lobo Arms, and I further certify that the National Firearms Act Branch has an application that was not approved to transfer the firearm as noted Larry Douglas Friesen to James Howard Bugg." THE COURT: Is there anything showing that it was not Where would she get that from

approved, any record?

unless there is some record that shows that it was not approved? MR. KUMIEGA: application. non-event. Government's Exhibit No. 5 is the actual

Again, this is like the D number, it's a

It never occurred and it would have the same

import, your Honor, as the first exhibit. THE COURT: So what you're saying is when they don't

approve it they just never act on it? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. And I think the ATF lawyer -- Mr.

Vann, is that, in fact, correct? MR. MARTIN: They sent a rejection, Judge. They've

done it in other cases. MR. KUMIEGA: I think notice has nothing do with it.

Either it happened or didn't happen, it's a non-event. MR. MARTIN: So we just hold the gun forever then?

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1002 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: They don't notify people that it's not

approved, they don't send any kind of a rejection or a letter to the people transferring, the transferor or transferee saying this is not approved? MR. KUMIEGA: Your Honor, I don't know. I think the

lawyer from ATF can address that.

But I think notice, I don't Just like saying --

think notice has to do with any non-event. THE COURT: records -MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, sir. My question is:

If she examined the

-- and there's never an approval that

would tend to indicate that it's still pending, or is there a time period that after there's not an approval it's just rejected, or is there something in the records that say this transfer is not approved? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: I don't know the answer to that.

Well, the Court will admit Exhibit 1.8 as

properly certified under 902, a proper exception to the hearsay rules. But there appears to be from Ms. Brown's search some,

something in the records that disapproved this transfer, which there should be a supporting document to show that. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Anything else? MR. KUMIEGA: Yes. Government's Exhibit 6.0.1 is a Okay.

So at this time I will not admit 1.9.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1003 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 Martin? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: No, sir. Will be admitted. Same with 6.0.2, it's the close-up of photo of 682. I imagine the Court -Just a minute. Let me get to it. 6 what?

THE COURT:

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: firearm, E682. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA:

6.0.1, your Honor. Okay. That's the photograph of the actual

Which firearm is that? It's one of the machine guns, your

Honor, one of the bookend guns. THE COURT: Okay. Is there any objection to that, Mr.

MR. KUMIEGA:

the Sten Mark II serial number, your Honor. THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Any objection, Mr. Martin? No, your Honor. Will be admitted. Same with Government's Exhibit 7.0.1,

it's a photograph of the E685. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: No objection, your Honor. Will be admitted. And last, your Honor, is the photograph It's a

I believe of the tube in Government's 8 with E705. photograph of that, your Honor.

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1004 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 THE COURT: I'm sorry? 8.0.1.

MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:

Any objection, Mr. Martin? No, sir. Will be admitted. Your Honor, I think the last

MR. KUMIEGA:

housekeeping issue would be the stipulation that I'll have to draft and read it to the jury tomorrow regarding Annette Johnson's husband that I believe Mr. Martin agreed to. THE COURT: Draft that and show it to Mr. Martin prior

to beginning of trial. MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: Yes, sir.

And it should be a very simple, shouldn't And we'll read that and then you'll

be any objection to it. rest? MR. KUMIEGA: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: the morning? MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: MR. MARTIN: THE COURT:

Yes, sir. Anything further, Mr. Martin?

Okay.

No, your Honor. So you're ready to start first thing in

Yes, sir. 9:15 we'll bring the jury up. Yes, sir. Okay. We'll be in recess.

Mr. Martin, the reason I asked that is are there going to B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1005 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 be motions from the defense? arguing that in the morning. MR. MARTIN: I do intend to make a Rule 29 motion, I don't want to spend 20 minutes

your Honor, for acquittal. THE COURT: Let's do that now. The Court will

consider it and -- in other words, I don't want to bring a jury up and have a stipulation and then spend 20 minutes discussing a motion. MR. MARTIN: Your Honor, comes now the defendant

Douglas Friesen and moves the Court for a directed verdict of acquittal pursuant to, or pursuant to Rule 29 of the Federal Rules of Criminal Procedure, and would urge the Court that as to all counts, Count 1 through 5, that the evidence taken in the light most favorable to the state would not prove false statements to a federal agency as alleged in Counts 1 through 4, nor the possession of an unregistered firearm as alleged in Count 5 of the information. And as a matter of fact, it's -- I

think the Court can take into consideration several credibility issues and several inconsistencies in all the testimony, and would be appropriate in entering verdicts of not guilty as to all counts and would, therefore, ask that be done. THE COURT: MR. KUMIEGA: Response, Mr. Kumiega. Your Honor, the United States, your

Honor, stands on the record of the trial. THE COURT: Well, I'll wait to make my ruling until

B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603

1006 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 B. JEANNE RING, RDR UNITED STATES COURT REPORTER 200 NW 4th Street, Suite 3011E Oklahoma City, OK 73102 jeanne_ring@okwd.uscourts.gov - ph (405) 609-5603 I hereby certify that the aforegoing is a correct transcript from the record of the proceedings in the above-entitled matter. __________________________ B. Jeanne Ring, RDR the government officially closes, so we'll begin in the morning at 9:15. MR. MARTIN: THE COURT: Okay. We'll be in recess. For

(Court stood in recess until September 24, 2008. further transcription, see Volumes VI and VII of this transcript.) * * * * * REPORTER'S CERTIFICATE

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