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Mansoor Ijaz Cross Examination

Mansoor Ijaz Cross Examination

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Reca II ~... ,an,.i · f'fi .. d d rea,llm'e<". . i,·C.

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Question by 'the Cemmisslen:

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"' " nat . :ave ~ d un!:;er ." (1'1 - d . ]. '~ . ·t·" ·r.at1sc,rlp · d ocument,t, tl .t we 'h' _. recervec ui d' '" seaieo enveiop- IS not a "n..---" ".. t",
_
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Is that correct?

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I understand about lO!'%of the Urdu language, 40 to 50% of Punjabi and

1()()% o'f English,
..c... s ". of P·,rotessor : O.
'P·'h; ....· ';' ,"'. ,:"

'My father was a, Nuclear Physicist. 'My father was a
at ' ,.., --, e ; T"' ... h "nlve,rsl_Y ,~. .',' -,'- '""1·,:". . .._..'.ber ... . a, 'V··lrgtnta·. 'ecn U'.,."~..-. ,- ."it "R' e 'was a so a memoer 10f~
,".<Ii', .:
i _-"'

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an, organization called "Atoms for Peace", W,e resided as family in Pakistan
.t:':._,-

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aboi ... ... -.., .--- he -.. la, ,,.,, rorkinc lor th ,. ·~'d"-· ~",. .- .,...." atiot ;;:' a, QU'it- a 'year w!,.... -'. Iny fath. eI was " worln.g ,./:';,-, ,e sal":" olganJza_to,n ,t.e.. e.n
0

"Atoms for Peace" and in such capacity 11e may have worked for the

Government of Pakistan but I don't know for sure. My father permanently
.. ,a ' sta .' .., '..: ,'U, . e ....., rti ' '1,' ..... ' " lor one) 1''e.ft p-'..... k'"1Sf ': 11 In. ':19""6' 0'" b t" h"-," c'on.Jllu'e","ed to \visit p':",a,"(lSt"_-·an an,d'.. e; "."",. ear we: O' IS]"
r'"' 11'"

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resided in Pakistan, In 1.960 my father would have 'been 23 years old, Q~

Please see article "Not All of Pakistan's Nuclear Scientists were. Rogues",
'." ic D~d you wnte
tJj'IS
,·L'~ ;'" article?

.. 1 '. d :~,y. ';e Secretary as·:x,,"J_' E h·b Y es...[1',e,e sal.id arncte IS mar k"'e": b th S _h

to .

"W"':'4 ,"::'<1 ... 2'-'3'] It'<,"
!liiJ
-,' _•• ~ _'.

Have
.. '_

y)O'":u- _ alw a,'y,·:'S";~ remained . against _ : , 1.__ ,:' ,_
_._I.~~.:.

Pakistan acq u .1"'r'·'n, ..·g nuclear potential ;? .. c ': an ...
I
"_"_'Io' _'

til."

A.
'

It is incorrect,
YO'::U'"_ r '>Ii . .. -

Q

'I'

answer,. eontradi.. ts. the article . which you wrote? _ _ _ ". .. ' ' .. c ,_ __. ' ". .. "" . _ _ ,_.,. "
110t~\

I'

A~

It does

Please see paragraph '4 of the article, does .it not contradict your answer?

A~

I have never been against the; acquisition of nuclear power for peaceful
purposes or for the defence of Pakistan as a nation. The 'article I wrote on

February

11; 200.4, was written shortly after Dr, Abdul Qadeer Khan.

adr itted that h ~ h"id S,O'" nuclear '. te .} ilozv ano secrets 0, ,.. axistan t ..,: adrmtted t. at ne nac .,. ld' iuclet ecnnoiogy and ,"', rets of p,·.....t,.: nar ,0
other countries, The illegal sale of Pakistani nuclear technology for personal

benefit ·or for-the benefit of rogue elements of the State of Pakistan was
acceptable. to me andjhat is what I wrote in 'the article, If

110[t

my ·a.rticle
,.~~.'

is read,
j40"
c.. '

as 1".S

" L ely ._ i.I· a. \\vh rOle 'a'n"'~': no ,··t'~ S'~":lectiv ,e,:, th.is :....d n: :.e ~:'

"'V'O""LL " \

']d'; be 'C'O".~ e .. cl' e':. C]"'n~': the P'','rtion re_a·d ..ar,'. . .'.~ '. m:"" ~,·O~l:_~.
+..

out to me I have used the word 'allegedly ~ Q., Had you. any evidence except tile confession for leveling the acquisitions
~ ~

ill

..

vour above referred 'article? ... AI

In addition

to

myself there are a large number of articles where it is stated,

that Dr. Abdul Qadeer Khan did what. I wrote .and these articles can be'
located on the Net,

Qi

Please see article titled "Pakistan's Nuclear Metastasis how widespread is the Cancer, ",.Did 'y'o'u write this article?

A.

Yes I wrote an article under such ti t.Ie· but 'the document
·1 t h e comp 1 cte article, I:. call 1 · 'I pro:diuce t.1C entire article,
I'

ShOWl1. "' tf"'"

to me is not

'1 atll peJll1Itte'~.to ·d

ac.... ·S·:S· it from mv c~:o':ln'"1''p'Ui ter ce i' ....
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[M~I'.Bokhari say's that he
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'no objection
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to,
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the' witness
• .

accessing the article Ac .cordingly w e p·:·e.'· ..rmit _.",1 '. ~.. .
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h im to do

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[The "witness has printed out th'e article which the Secretary
h a$ mat, e·"d as k
-u; J.~X~"l,,'i.t

hibi W" '4'" 2'-4] _ ...
::1 ... :., '•.

Q"
A~

Did you write all article "Clinton Intel record"? I have written over 150 articles "I do not remember all of them, If it is shown
to nle Ican answer,
,.

Please see-the said. arti cle ..
. '.• _". . ._. _ • __ B..
I •••• ...

...

A,

Yes. I wrote the article, [The Secretary has marked ·the article as Exhibit
W4 ... 2,5J

Q"

III this

article (Exhibit W4-25),~ did
{
,

)10U

refer to a confidential memorandum

that vou wrote to Sandv Bergrer? ~
A.

Yes.

At the time I wrote the article Sandy Berger 'Was the Deputy' Security Advisor to President Clinton,

Q.

Is it co-rrect that through the said memorandum Muslim Government of 'Sudan?

YOlI

intended to dislodge the

A.

T have reproduced the memorandum put to me
IS
'1'

in tile said article and the suggestion

idi I d 1 ueny rt, ' nc rculous an,.. r d

Mah 1 a 1.... !'.: do' f
... ' > _-. _'.
t, ;

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A.

Yes, 1. have met him ~ Is it correct 'that thereafter you met Susan Rice, an official of tile National
Security
C()lU1Cil,

Q;.

to inform "th,em about your meeting with Sudan's

Intelligence Chief?
A.

I do not

want

to answer because it involves American security interest.
are admitting

Q.

Is "it correct that by not answering my question you
question?

the

"

A~ Q.. ,

Argumentative.

What was the purpose mentioned by' you
Record' under consideration?

ill

the article "Clinton Intel

A.,

The -purpose
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writing an v-v
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0' .·lJ'1·1'11'"o,,'n.· ._- .... icle '1"3< ..... ~~'_. ,. ar t _"
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allow thos ,e' wh 0.' read
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Q

4

Is it correct that 'you, claim that 'you, have relationship with, two dozen
intelligence agencies of the world?
...

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Correctt•. Howe v ·e···r I -., ',' -', ~' .... . ~
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w·-:
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an t teo clarify - th at this re..ation ship does no··'t me. iean that I
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at any given period of time I 'have relationship
·c -'" . "" ._.·.C_· • : ""''. '",' -.'

'with such number of
-' ,~ ."
e '. _. '. ;_; ;.

azencies however during" the course OflDY·· career spreading over 25 years ··'.eo · ..
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th e 8l1SWe1. ... -Iid b-" correc t ~ - ~,-. -, ...wou'·e ,,--'" - ... -. t·,

Q.
.A.

Can, youname allthe agencies "with which you have had relationship. Irefuse to answer the question.

· ",. ,.y th c-.. , Questions b the Commisston:
Q,.
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Pl ease-answer the q'U' estion ..
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I don't want to answer the question because my' relationship with other

intelligence.agencies

has got nothing to do with this inquiry. ..

Q~

Can you please name the intelligence agencies ofthe world?

A.

During the course of tenyears that I have known Ambassador Haqqani especially 'during the four years as 'he was serving as Ambassador he, at
least Gin three or four ·occasions during telephonic conversations, that he knew everything "in my CIA file" ..

811d

told. me

[Mr. Muhammad
[

Akram Sheikh .. Advocate states that the
....

question that has been asked from the witness
..· .·· S . V re~ le v· ·n:.c-le.- ("a·n.d ]"-' in..·l·-~'I' '~O-p.- ·e·r a' nd
. _. (,:1 . ~1.. .._ . .' ".... .'" .. _ ,
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p, .

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.n. ·re,'-as,o·. nabl e,p an' «l r' e'....ied Il-'.. ·o.····n ~1-, _ . . ,J
, ,~,
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.Articles 143(2)~ 144~ 14,6 and 148 of the

Qru1tL11,-e ... hahadat S

Order, 1984,. Mr., Bokhari replies 'by stating that the question is relevant and has read out Article 15] Order

...,

,

• .~

-",' "11' h o ..... ..'. b een recor,d.e d. t,h e counsetZ'11·1:. loe a.bl e to argtle tne matter_ In
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due course.

Q.,
A..

Have you, had any relationship, with KGB'?

is 1,,~.. ·~ '_ . '; . ".1 __ K'G:'B:-' I'l'OW:,'" referred . to' f'··~S··,·'B·'··,· but I' d":O'11;t' wan .t to answer the question
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· :'~:'O . '.', D : ('-"'I.-IA' rv . T a 1.so d 110t. want to: comment. ab out. ~ AW:'" ,:~,;:, 'M"16'.i . " ~
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'0" S'SA'" D""'- ,,' .c :':,: 0"': M' ·S'S'i. '·,.:':,k. ,:...L
1

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f Chi .nma,

B&D ofGermanv , D(iSE , of France and. ASJS ,of A-ustraliaJ . . .,' . ,. '.' _ _. _ '. '. "-. .~, ,
'.

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Q~

J have

110t

asked (or- any comments, Do you admit working with these

agencies ornot?
A.
r JA

d:.:0,"'1' '1't' .

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y"r"'an,: .,_' .... :- .' :_.

t t o an'"'So Ire' ';"'1'"' tl q'" ru e>-'tl~ 0' n : ·le:· s
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[Mr. Bokhari says that the "tittles's, should be compelled to
..

answer the question in view of" Article 15 of the Qanun ... eShahadat Order ,1c.;la,.a'_1,·~er, 1:::9-:8':4 ',".. . M·':~ Muhammad ·~._ . :r.aln Sheikl ,1, ,.,]~ ..... ,amn1a Akra .. el
L,.

.~ ... Advocate responcd s b stating t h tt' re question by rat it has
beell

IS

.' improper as

asked without reasonable grounds

811d, intended

to

scandalize these proceedings and Article IS of the. Qanun-eShahadat Order, 1984 does not extend to inquiries but only
extends to trials civil and criminal. Mr Bokhari exercising
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'his right of reply states that Qanun-e ... Shahdat applicable in its entirety.] -ORDER

Order is

The witness has admitted his relationship .intellig,encea,gencies'
learned counsel wants
,,,I... ." '.' ~".

with different

0.'"
it)

the world

already. In case the

challenge this statement
' , .. ~ '. ,... " '" i'...• ,' .. '.". ,_.

of
'''.

the
",'

witness a direct question in this' regard should be put by
_.
/

zd .., ,....:,I' 0-'" . ner nan. ;{" lea earnec counse,.,n·,e - the oithe h'-' , .d .vearne":.'", d" counse 'l'~
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accepts the statement of the witness the question does not
"Pl '" ':-:1"'?
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,(" , ',"'''' f"r;;o' "
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follow. Whereas, the learned' counsel has complete latitude
with regard to questions emanating from the probe in hand,
but {( he is challenging

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mat: ~.(,~: ," J1.. Cou rt: fl£rf

l..~T:<O ;:,) ft
FJJa
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ls~.amat·.ad

something

which is not directly

, -"'. " t ed '" "t'h~- tne . e ./ conneaea a wun t l'"" prlJ-··b·: , tn h an. .. th' .,e '.' "t:" ."', SOU.:· ild b'" e so" : ',.',' 'd-" ;, " l1LneSS th ,-, .'.
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contronted !jI.I'I.·· and then lovewill examine the relevancy' or ...........!.,-, :. _. Iirst
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,or

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otherwise ofthe question.
,

Q.,

Did

,Y·O'U.

work for the' agencies that I have mentioned?

b.. learned counsel earlier. y

Q.,

Y ou also wrote an article titled "Security Chief
~ .. ",.Il
o

111l1St

end Pakistan 's

duipilic.ity "? ,,",.
,I.
1

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A.

It is correct that I wrote an. article titled "Security Chiefs must end

'2011~ and alreadyexhibited ,as 'Exhibit W4 ... 9~ 1
Q~

Is it correct that.you have ..termed lSI as a.babysitter for Usama bin. 'Laden the third paragraph of the. said article?

111

A*

The suggestion is inaccurate
"f _. ,-; 1

as in the
-: ' ',1... .;,

third paragraph of the article I state
1 . ~ :", . ",' ";'.'

"In all of this Pakistan has almost certainly.... cted as knowine '. ". a '.1 6 babvsitter
"f ~'J .__ ", .
!r", -.~ ........ .:.. I.," .. " ..• _.

'~Vn'"

f····_

,.

watching over the terror "laster so' he' would do no further harm-as /on,g as
·f-h· oaoysuutl tng jees 11)eresuptcten - .. fl" .~.. - ~,..- .' Iq:;;· tne b b':";,II

J

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""d'~ ana

.... .. ' .:n n ~ recurru gall.

"d'" aner .: wrote , . ft:--' -.... I . ." t

thi rus
! .•

article I received a Blacl(B~rry" message from Mr. Haqqani saying that he

agreed. with. what I h.ad written,

It is incorrect to suggest that I did

110t

receive such a,Blackberry message from Mr.

Haqqani, .I have already produced it as W 4~·XA1\.A.A.Y ~
r- acknowledge

that 1wrote paragraph 3 of Exhibit W 4·... 9·. 1

Q~

f-I.ave 'you read this article? [An article titled 4~I.have never met ally R}\.W
Chief is shown to the witness.]

A.

I have not r~eadthis article,
,

~ ,

Q~

.

Do vou knowKashmiri leader Yasin Malik?
~
.

.

rt' d : . .. ']ik I...know ..::as.ln'llrlJ Ieader Y'asm M"al'-t k K"}" ·
:.·.! ..

A.

..

. At th at time when this meetinz.' =-, was arranged the person was not the RAW
. l: l,: "_", " .._. _ ','.' .'
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'Q~

Did Yasin Malik know that he was meeting with the Deputy Director of
D
'~"[II

AW.~:'?

,A~

Q~

.. Y our assertion t 1 you arrangedd a meet . aat a meeting t" tor
,.

"Y"

dh S '. asin 'M'a.lik ano that Y'asin rv 1:
.,
'I'

Malik met with said gentleman was refuted by y asin Malik, What do 'you,
.;;:).

.[,_.. ... ay?
all

Af

If Mr. Yasin Malik has .refuted it, he lied. lwould also like to refer to
'. -,t~ , . 1. ~._ - "'.b usne: i ~· aruc '·1"e wmci h was pu..I·" t···· sd
I

In
!!'..

a newspaper
. • '. '~.,. ..

' · '"1 Wh'·:lCll T'.
.

''. m .. ' if I' . ". : wantt t pro d'.., ce, 1 , ..' am ,0

permitted to access the internet from my' computer,

[TIle witness prints out an article .w.iittell by Neena Gopal,
I

Foreign Editor published in the "Gulf News" wherein." the meeting I- said took place 'was referred to. The cuticle. is

exhibited 'by the Secretary as Exhibit W4·... 2,6.]

QI
A.

Is it correct that this article does.not contradictthe stance of Yasin Malik?
It is incorrect to suggest ·that the said article does not refer to the said
meeting,

Q.

Is it correct that you never informed Yasin Malik that he was meeting 'with,
a ·RAW person?

A.

It is not correct as 1 informed Mr. Yasin Malik at least on two different occasions prior to the meeting and he attended the meeting which lasted. for
r ( _-'.".". ",,:: f' . ·O·I1.ean d'l nal_hour,
"_".".' t.·· .

Q,
.

Did RA W pay you any filing for arranging the meeting?
N'o' ..
'

..

'

Q•

national TI1,]"S'·', inrvo Ive~' U'~S:··
.• . .. ' .• 10. . .;.
i

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s:.C·'C·l.lT·: 'ity w.··· hich I·'do..n't . .. ·
..... '. . •

WF.l;1'1:,t:··. to d.,:1~V1Jl(Je. c" ". . -.'.0' '
4

,

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Q.,

A.

I

0011't

want to answer the question.

as I am an American ..citizen and it

involves American national interest.

'Q~
A*

Do you have an, official .status .in America?
T have
1.10

"official status m America ..

It is. correct tbat.I have never held public office in America.

Q~
.

Are you a, registered lobbyist?
I "
tlin ", ,', ~l {.,.'.', 110t c ' ,',,',', , '''.'"._~':;'lobbvist : ' ':' ,.',':
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registered

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in America
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d ld WOU,','.)~OU 11 de nne

~ your activities 'in,respect
.

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f tne questions put to you 'h '"
"

A.,

A~ thar of a concerned private citizen villa believes that America's policy

towards the Muslim world were not sufficiently engaging or constructive at
~

those times, so I tried to' meet people in those .governments to try to
persuade them to do things in a better way,

It is incorrect to suggest that what I have been doing is to [destabilize zovernments
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I tried to create peace in Kashmir and in .Sudan, In, the case of Sudan I tried to
,

re' concile th e:.l' nterests of S,: d a n with tho se .. .u
, " "_ ' . _" ,{, , ,', ',' . .. ."

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..

Q~
.

1)0 you incur expenditures on these activities?

A ..
"Q','"
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Can vou tell us your average exp enditure all such activities?
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rerne n'~,1'b ·e'-' r ' '
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It is incorrect to suggest that my financial posi ti on is. not strong ..
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Wl}el1 you left America?
I was last.. , in A,··nerica a few months before ..m,' 1_,
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It is incorrect to, sug'rvest that I anl willfullvJ absent from America for the last one 0' _
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and half vear, "'
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Q~
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Can

y'OU

show

lIS

your passport?

Yes, but I have not brought it with me today.
'Call 'YOU nroduce your.passport? ;.,t
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Q.
.

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Yes. if I k n··.O\V· the releva nee.
., ,.... _" 'If . . .

Q~
A~

Does vour passport show entrv exit stamps when vou enter or exit lJSA9
'h."..,; ., (. "'" _ .' .,. ' .. .;...; . .." ~ " .. ~.
,;I . • --. , " .

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"S"" . . .tilIlles. th . I:·.nunlgra.lo-n '·":' t.... ". a 'f':;fi:' ,... ,'. the samp..". all~: SOlnelmes.. t~.." ',' fi·:..~ . -.. · " hi . OIDe .... _e ", " ". '.' r; ti .',', 0....1,.lc,er .. .Jxes. .-le ...·t···-' . . ;,'d'.. . '. --:-,'. t' .. -"', ' " ,!!e

Immigration Officer does not, It is entirely up to' him.
Order The witness is directed to brirlg his-passport tomorrow.
I

Q,.

Why did you asked the Commission.to

record your statement in lJ~K~and

,l~+

It is because mv 'wife and children live
~

ill Europ.. WId e
.

if someone had asked
or if I had been
ill

me to, record m.y~statement in Unite-d' States of America

directed

b)1 the

Commission I would have recorded my statement

USA ..

The reason I did

110t

come to- Pakistan was on account of a massive attempt by the
m:e and rny

Government
family.

and certain members of' the Government to intimidate

of Pakistan 11Ud threatened to report me to Interpol, He also threatened to arrest me
when I arrived in Pakistan and 'he wanted to put me on the Exit Co:ntroI List.
, ,

.Q"',:" ..

A.,

Every thing I just said is a 'matter of public record, ..

·Q.t

r put it to you that you started
It is not
true,

having facing finm.1.c·ia.l roblems p

since 200'51'

A.

Q"

Is it correct
T"Ii,11'~)' aJ

that B?U1ca Sammarinese,

a, European bank
I

(~·~·tbe ank"), B

d" " a ".. ~,. ·ave COmn11. d ,.,·au' if '. .. ':"un, 0 ,.' ,' l' 5'· mIl ~ , ..(] ' ,e,ge" that you, hs ",.:', '.. mittee·,: frai d p., an' ,am0:.':t /"'f,""US" .,'".' ~'"·~.' ~'I!I'lo'n~

s

A~

TIle allegation 'vas false, The Bank made loans-against collaterals that I had
,giVt111

them. These were all secured loans. The loans were made to four and three other

different entities of which one was myself personally corporations.
111i Ilion...The

TIle. total amount of the loans was approx imately U'S$ '2 loans were made in the year 2007 and, 2008. The allegation that

you stated. was contained in aIaw suit filed 'by' the Bank in New York,

However, the Bank had violatedits own lending rulesbecause th,e President
of the Bank lent more than 20,% of' the Bank's capital to the said four
entities, which the Central Bank of San Marino, considered as one, TI1.e
I

reasons tor filing the. suit by the Bank was because they had lost their
f '. lati f ncensmg regulations. 'T' BId startec to ] "'. h 1.. ncense b oecause 0: violation or 1"'" ';'~e sank

sell my coll aterals to recover the loan and they did this at a time when the
Le'hn1811 Brothers collapsed in the third quarter of 2008 and as. such could

not receive sufficient value from the col-laterals sold by them, The matter was settled out of court whereby I gave tlle Bank additional collaterals which they stili 1101d~ TIl-ere' was never all)' fraud on my part and if at all
there was any fraud it was committed by the Bank against its own Central

Bank 'and as a,result of that the President of the Bank lost his job.
.. :ft.

Q.
A,.

Have you so far paidoffthe loan?
No, because the Bank still holds my original collaterals as well as the

collaterals subsequently provided.

Q,.

Is it

COITect

that the allegation was that your collaterals were insufficient

...

"

No" the collaterals that I provided at the, time were four or five times ofthe

value of Joan and were in the shape of shares of public limited comp "anies ..
I'

,

;

.

_.

however,

'U:P911 the collapse

of Lehman Brothers the market collapsed and

the value of said collateral shares declined, 1 then provided additional

Is it C··:·O" rrect that
~ •• ..: _: _' , . .:- •..

'.J.'

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't"

111

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de f... aulted A'·· crica n Express Credit C·-·-rds t'o- thre".tune o.. m 'ar f
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A.~

It is possible that this- occurred in 199:5 or 199-, however, subsequently I 6,;.
paid the entire amount and the default was removed. It was not my personal

default as other persons 'were additional card holders but I had to pay the
.money
011

their behalf
011
,

Q.

Is it correct that you also defaulted US' cio11ars?

a mortgage to the tune of tw-o million

A,.

N()~ this is not correct. The matter that you mention pertains to.a personal
c rami"1:)T matter,
r-'" .... I

'Q-: "'~ . ,',

..

.' '. ·t' ..·...' - . ~~ 'F . "d"M',·· __ D·- O. YOU" own A-'· q.,uarluS . .:' un,·:.·- anagem,ell.
c~ ."-" --.
....'.0 -

L'

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L' C-"?• ,

A ..

Other thai , }. '.. ]' ,er t118J11nys-eJelfth ere·. were, f-"'- -- 0, __.",s],are hOL elS o.~.th'e-,onlprulY '-...'"t· . .--'. -',. o'ur .th.eI .... '.-. .. .lld·..·..·· of :... C·~-'.. -_..
T'

r .. "' '?vas create d as a. spec.la,:,i p\upose
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hicl an.d a.f'...· tr e PUlp:ose h a d b .. ·'}c..e tel h '_"' -e,en
. -. .... " -. '- ~ . . ':'1, . .•• ,,'-. '-'" ..... -

served the' comp'an'y expired.
Q~

Is it correct that the said company had defaulted an. amount of Euro
9';:7'·.2 ."' 66'.':-1 ,., ~ 16)"?
.

.

". -

-

A"

TIle number is wrong,
ElU~O'Sand.
_ _ ',_' __ _ _ . • _ ..,' _'

I don't remember but it was not more than 100,'000
• L •

it relates to the same transaction with Banca Sammarinese
10.0., , " "'..... • .. _ ._ • ' , . . -.. '_'.' ...: _._ •• .' , • . •

.

!I

and other companies for an
..

81TIOU,nt

()fUS $ ·474,000?
(u -. W,··· .. .~. -' " . ... ._..

A.

The quest .. n s th ,e' same <~, io.. asked . earlie ,r- -hich relates
.• ,. ."..

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10..

.._

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to': th·'e··· 'suit filed bv J
...
<. •..• --' •

i.,

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'.-- S"'..··" - ..~.and nere .B· anca. Sammanuese- w_h': -le-1 , h'-' d expiamec m ..eetail a reaid y,. an .. tl'" ',,--rc I . iau .. *t·~ ed ":--d an -·1--.

18
'~'i

no
.'-'

.,
...

Tile j udgrnent and de·cree· shown to

111e are

the judgment

and decree passed

ill

the

settlement which I have stated,

Q..
A,

Helve you paid back, the: amount agreed to?
No I have not, 'because the original collaterals provided 'by me have not been returned to me by the Balik.

It. }s incorrect to suggest that 1 am not going to America to avoid the decree being executed . azainst .. 'me The collaterals .' which the Bank-holds are US based collaterals .... . . . .0 . . ." .'. .. .'''' . -_.... . . "_. '.. ,.
I.. ... . . •. '. '.' .'. , .. .

and they can execute the decree by selling the collaterals any time they want, TIley . .

don't need

Illy

presence in USA or permission to do so.

Q. -_ Is it correct that .suit NO ..I0023,6 'was filed on January 8, 2008 against you
£0' .1" I-eCO\lQiI"Y""
• . "'-'. u ~ •

of··U;.·S,· $"~ 2··. ]·: c9':~6'.·548·.··.1.3·· ..? . :
• -' .... ...,. • ".. •• .," .,... ..

.A.

It is correct that this sui t is going

011

for the last four years and relates to the

mortgage dispute amongst tile family members which I have stated above ..
'J ucgmen aas »een announce .. .' . .. .ral tmes an d amountt is pau but th en .-.n c.: ":. .'-. - i ".id out .. ...id --..... t 'h"'",.,b .,...~ ,. . -.' .d severa tirr
.,:1.

'r-'

c'.

default occurs again and another judgment is passed.

Q'.

Was a suit filed against you in New 'York City bearing No~20866 o·n..April

A.

T 'don't recall it. I cannot recollect whether any decree has been passed on
id · . ugust 2'7, '._'; t ): In tne sat:; SUIt. :..',~ 20'0-7" h :._ A

It is correct that a suit No.O:8112 was filed by Bank ofNew York
'O~' _.: '1:'." ch .' .,.'. . t' .'. f' .... ecree d r n Ji:i'" ..... o ,anualYw'" c: ~,.··;'J.or - all.--amO'lln~. ,0_: o, ?O"O"" fc 2-.'_ O""2'" W.l1C:: was dec
.1C....

.

.

011

August 23~
$' 5:'8': ·6·····8·· ..."~, 9 :",:_

us
11,.·.·,.

however, 1. have paid back the entire amount and if you, want I
...

Call

produce the

-.

proof of

Sl1C'11

payment, I .may add that I can also produce the proof that the amount

It is 'c-orrect that the Bank

()f

New York, debt was repaid after issuance of decree,

Q~

Is it correct that a suit was filed against you by Palisades Co. on August 5,

20{)S in the 'New' York .. Supreme ," ", ',' ",.'., ", '" ',' , ". ",.
settled this suit? A. I don 'tremernber
" ••. _".!!"!'.! .... "_••. _•• __ .,_ •••• r,

Court It",~ bearing . ... "" ,"

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suit No" O,'~4,2,84~< vou and
'.: '.' '.... ' ,,,' :" "',

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this case a,nd the r·e'a· O"','n"I, don 't remem S I
" .• .' •. _.~ ... ":,,,.:'.'" _, .•••. '• ."_' .-·.· .•

k~ .. _;.. _..

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.ber is because su c h',
1I1
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,".

matters are handled by my tt.llstee.

'Q'.

Is it correct that suit bearing No.2'O 120,00041364'5 was filed against you on,

January 12~ 2012 for recovery of"a mortgage debt. in, respect of Flat laO in
lJN P'1~a Condominium f ": C 'OlIT!,:t ot N ew"or,~' k '?'" ..
Y-

~

fo:r "al)

aITIOlUlt

of lJ8 $ 14,1)29,O~30 in the County

A"

I do not know about any such suit,

The propertythat

is mentioned is where my ex-wife and daughter reside. It is

correct that 'the property is in my name.

Q.

I put it to youthat it is to avoid service of this suit that you ate' not visiting

United States. of America?
A~

No, it is not correct. I am, not avoiding going to USA. and I want to add that
I travel to USA regularly,

March l' ilrc,

",J",

'2'

'0":1:2'·
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Q'AZI F,AEZ ISA Chairmnan
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.:_\':, Memb er
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Recalled-and

reaffirmed, ..

Q-~
.

Have you brought your passport with
Yes
•~ II;;; .'

)'OlJ?

r\,

Q,

Does your passport contain America?
....,......,

,

811Y

entry

O:!

exit .stamp of United States. of

,1f\_,

Yes" There is .an entry stamp of the department of Homeland

Security
I I .

affixed dated February 23, 2011 and another similar stamp -dated April 12,
I ,

I

20'11. These are the last two stamps affixed on my passport, At times the
authorities do "110t affix the stamps
011

the P·'lSSp011.,

I may add that exit

stamps are' not affixed, by' the American authorities. If it is required I. can
I

,I

also take print outs from
t

ID,Y

computer, showing my travel to
'to ."

311(1

from

I

,
I

. 111e.'~ k,a.:es 0 '[AI'· 11erlca.a. ,er,le sal... U'-· ite d S'it t .... 1,,,,' --... " ,'" ifte the s: id d',a"es,.

[The witness has shown us the stamps affixed on his passport :

bv holding .. IIp;,' the' same next to tlte camera which s110;Y\~s the
~
_'.
i

I

·S,·t~Tl1P···.· of . ~,

the department
.,', ,

0·-"·1'"

Homeland Security... and reads ···
,[, - ,. k '.

_ ,_ , ' _._, _

"Admitted Was" IT11e Secretary of the Co mmission has also
seen, 811.d confirmed the same]

It is correct that I wrote the article 4('P aki stan 's Spy Agency and Terrorism'

which

'was published
~

OIl

June 2,,2011 (already exhibited as 'W4-..14). J also admit writing
t
I

.. ..
,',

tile' article , c, ,
,.

titled "After . , ,_,. ".

0:'sa.na
!;o _ •.

_

bir L:aden, "c.,,,
• •

'P21(1·':r.;.':'ta~'1]~S . Ai..";,,.} .....

N·'·:" ,· Window arrow.. /v ',"
1"

for ~ Ii,
.
"J,

Redemption" :,' __", .'. ,'"

which was.: 'P:''''UbT:'I~S''h'''e''':('~" May 6) 2":011 .' '.'" ,_;". ,,1 .1 on . ..
"I,

C",

,

',"','

.

1."r[11',e· • " 1·,'

Secretarv.l ,,_,C,·. ex' ..h ibited has . ~~c:: .' " l·"

tile same as W4,~2,8]~ I also wrote tile article which is shown to In~ titled "Time to
,I

take

OIl

Pakistan's Jihadist Spies" published

ill

the Financial Times
rj
r

,011

October 10,
I

2011 (already exhibited as W4-15)~

~\
I

Who was the lSI official who contacted
I:

Y'Ol1.

to arrange. the meeting with
, I'~

~1

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I

L:

III

I

assistant to General Pasha and would be using the code name "~'BllrI1a11~~~
I l _.

Q ..
.

'Did he inform you, what rank he held? He may have done so' 'but Idon' t remem her ..
.
.

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.

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.

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.

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Q•
I.

Did you eyer meet the ..said gentleman?

A.

Yes, he 'was. in the room when he introduced

111e· to

Geller-a] Pasha,
I

Q.,
A.. ,

Did you inform General Jones that General Pasha wanted to meet with you?

I. did 110t ill-form 'General Jones
. '- .. '::Ji .
'f"

111 .advance

but I did inform him about the ,
C

ti d .'..... ace, :-1.owever,. 'r d '.d In.()rlTI ~n meetmgrrr a'fte ~rt'}.:. tal'.{ell1J·1'" .... I':1'·_··.. ..ert la .. ._1. ~ . f:-'" . - '"
i... l
,

"'taC'll\'e U: ':.·· Offici ·1' .. S . .. lClaj l
I ", . ""T '.

I

I

I I

before I met with General Pasha through
'

Illy

lawyer

i11Washington, ,

l

Q '.
, I

l\_~

'No". I

111ft)r

havre 11otecl111S telephone and e-mail address .. There was no need notes because it was I who was informing General Pasha about

to take

IDlY

Q~~A_.

Did General Pasha take notes?

I:..Ietook extensive

notes.

Q.
A.

W'11at was he writing 111 such notes?

1 don't

kJl0'W·,.

all I could see was that he was writing

·dOW11 things,

Q.

Why did you inform the American official through your lawyer about the
.1~ropo'se,dmeeting with General Pasha?
I ,
I'

I
I

A~

[ ani a private tJS,A citizen and I was meeting with a. foreign government
I ,

I

II1

Ii ~

I'

I

II

I

official therefore, it was m.y duty as'
~

all.

American citizen to inform IUY
,(111(1 ill

government

about the proposed

111
,

eeting
I

case my government had
111,111..

r

objected to In)' meeting with General Pasha I '\V():U1.Cll10t have met with

Call you disclose the identity of the official to W.h.01TIyou informed?
I
'I :

:'1

.

I

!i

A.
'Q4'

I Cl011 't want to ..

,j

,I

I

Did. you get an:{ written permission to meet with General Pasha from tile
1~ ~

II

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American government? ,
,

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Call

'Y'O'U disclose

the name

of your

lawyer

who communicated

this
I.

information to the American official?
A. No, I don't want to. Before
. ., -

Q,

drafting
.... t:;. -"

the Memorandum
.... ..

(lid.

)'01.1.

get permission

from the

American aovemment to do
A.

SO~/' , .. ,
,

The contents of the Memorandum were dictated by Ambassador .. Haqqani
verbally to me and ldIior to me converting the verbalmessage
iI1tO

a written

"1 one, at tne request . 0"f_.'.C'-" ' reneraiI '0T ones, '
.

W 'I10

,. v was at t}"iat. time a ~prl ate U· ( ._.S

citizen, J made every' attempt to confirm with. Ambassador

Haqqani that the
.,'
II I

message must be put
I

ill

writing on the request of General Jones, I am a
.......
I

.. "" d -1 pnvate crtizen ano was requestedd'b 'I a fri d 0.: mme to convey- tile 111ess.age :°)1 rnenc f . .
t Q: ~." .th. .' ,._,; r r te ,-. ano ner pnvate

t:.J S cmzen ·th'···' .'" ,c',·.,' ther W~lS 110 : ." t~ :) ererore tnere '." , -- issue
l
+
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f 0"

-~ 0 set!:{1~1b
l' ,"
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permission or informing anyone in the American government at that time. I
111ay

add that General Jones had' just retired from the post of
~

US National
I

Security

Advisor,

if General

Jones

felt that

there was. need to. seek

he who was conveying the message to

all

American official,

It is incorrect to sU,gg~st that
Memorandum

111Y

statement that Mr. Haqqani verbally dictated- the

to me was false and untrue

show that Mr. Haqqani had as ked you to write the Memorandum?
I
I

hand. written notes that I took down when Mr. Haqqani telephoned me.

~n

I

~~

I

I

I

1

Q~

.Is it correct that 5l0"U cannot produce .any BB,M, e"'111aiI or written document .I I I. I; to that effect?
I ~ ;~~ ~
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I-J:aLIQal1.isent a ,B~BJ:vf me (tile document marked 'as Vl4-XA;.\AAZ) which to
I
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reads asunder:
•I . ,'_

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"Are yOU i1l I ondon? I am here just for 3,··,6 110111' Can
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meet after
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I responded (B,'B,M Screen ShotN'o.002) which s,aid that:'

~"I am_ in Monaco bmt it's " '.' ':. !V
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problem
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'F~O',. 1" l.. ill.

me to fly
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Takes 9',O~':
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minutes. What time did you have in mind?
,_,e ' et? me _ ~

Where do 'you want to
I'

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Which was responded to .. . Mr Haqqani '. (SBM Screen' Shot 003), where l1e by . ..,. ,- 1.. . . .._ . .. . "'. .
,t.... - .." , . ~
c , . ••• .'

SdJ"d ,-'.'
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"pls cal] me. I'm at the Park 'Lane 111terCOl1:. +442,071060'900 room
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,4,30'" Waiting for ur call now,"
..
1

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1:aI8'0 refer to BB'M Screen S110t Nos.IO, 15 and 2 0. After I had sent an eI '~;

II
:1
I

mail to Mr. Haqqani I sent an e-mail to Mr. Haqqani (document.marked as
1

1

\V4-,X,/\) which contained tile first draft of thee Memorandum

and I received

I

a B[~M message (881\11, Screen S'hot No.20) .in which Mr. Haqqani said' as
under:

"Msg recvd, Tweaking, Middle .of road option sounds good. Will
ball
111OI11irl g
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.

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[Mr. Bokhari

0 b;j ects

to, the witness' s answer and states that
, I
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he has not 8J1SWeTed the question
11

and,

11e should be asked to
l .... I:

answer tile question put to him ~And he further states that he
I

is simply re:peatin ,g. what
examination in, chief]

11e has already

narrated

in. his

.'

'1

I,
"

,

I

,

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,

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to

establish what he 1/VClf1ts to'.
".

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I

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Q,.
_"

},

The BBM that

Y,011

have referred. 'to does not contain

EH1Y

instruction from

Mr. Haqqani to prepare a Memorandum?

/-\.

My answer remains the same; I may also refer to BBM Screen S11.ot bs" 15 N
, ,J

I.

("2""(') an d,_",'..

(2~

I put it to you that all tile B,BM, messages referred t9 by' )IOlL are BB.M,
1

messages sent by

)"011

and not sent by Mr ~Haq qani.

,(-~', ," .... '-:;.'.'~ rro',,', 'M" H" aqqarn ana rW " 'AI ere" sell t~-,y IIIe t .. M ·, II" aq q ,,\111. I11t., ,, ", .. 0 ,'~' '" b '-,-, :,0 _'.r.
I

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Q,.

Does
memo?

fU1Y of the

said, Screen Shots 'refer to the word Memorandum
I

or

II
I

,

,.

A,

It was agreed amongst us that the Memorandum ,. "message" and the reason for that was because

l' II I would be. referred to as I, 1I "
I I
I

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"

Mr.. Haqqani
~I
I

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wanted a ,
I ' 1

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verbal message to be conveyed. But at the insistence of GenJral Jones J
, I '.. "" "I ' drafted th'~ written message w:hi - we then ea uiec1t'}" Memoranc 'II, I want I,:'..e 'tell. ae um,
I..

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ill

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, 1

to refer. to document marked as W4~Xr.\ where the "lord Meli1o,~',and,'ull1had
i, . '"

1

,

not been used. TIle word Memorandum was used

0111y~ subsequently.

l\"

The word memo means a written piece of paper

011

which one is submitting
I,

011e's proposal or understanding,

Q~

I P u t: 'it to you that a Il1'.elTI, orandum is ado cument whi ch .is wri tten 0 ut 011the

r

letter ,pa:l1e.r of an organization

or department

and it is .. also signed, sealed
I I

n

I Ir:

1

--

I,

A,.

I don't agree, It is C'OlTI'nl0npractice. fOT memorandums

to be. written without iii .

signature and without a letter head paper. Mr. Haqqani 'perfectly knows very
I I: " ~I .

I!,;

well what a "non-paper' is and this document was a

n011... paper.

"

I,'.

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,

• by h Question b the C-, ommlSSlon:
it

'r-: "

t.

'..

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i~'

Q.
1.

What is a non-paper?
II

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A~,

A 11011"'lJaperis a type of communication. also between

used between governments
I

and

co mrnercial

organizations

where

the

contents

of '~11e
OIl

communication

is written on, a piece of paper without signature and not

official stationary or organizational

imprint, If it is required I can produce
,.

examples-of such-non-papers.

I
,I

I

Q"
A,.

Was the Memorandum signed by. Mr.',.,Haq q. ani? . -.,...,......,'.'..
(..
.,. .

...

,(:

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It is correct that there 'was

110,

signature on, the docume 11. because-It was a , 1\' '1 i~ I .I
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, ,~

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,

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Please

see your hand written
l

note, exhibit
.'

W4~1, and I dods the 'said
L~
I

document llav :~ any inscription that ·'yOl~.were informing
1

Mr':1 I~Ia,q·qal1i that
I

I,

11
I '

'I

.

.',

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I

are taking notes?

1,1',

A.

th ~ · the d 0 Ii course t·1 e same 1S I10t wntten on t ne (lOCUI11e!lt~
1 .....

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, h'
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II

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· f~ I .• I'· correct th t::1.S d s it t nat hi document ' d doesnot contam any date 0-: Its preparation? ') c
i

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I

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Q
.

~

Is it correct that the document even doesn't contain
Of course it doesn' t but it is in
l11Y h,811d

y01U~' signature?

I

I

A~

written.
011

Q.

D id yo u record the tel ephon Ie conversati

that took place' between

yOH,

and

Mr ~Haq q, aJ1 i at the tim e that yo II wrote thi s do C11111ent?
I'r

'~

Q.
A.

Is it correct that this document was prepared at 8:30

(.1111?

No; the time '~'8:30 am' written on the document referred to, something else
which

r can. explain.
I )

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l
1

,I; 1

1

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Q'.

Whether in your final draft or Memorandum

that you drafted subsequently
_._ _ _' '-

is ther ~,e"e ference to r
:&.. '. ~ '_ . .•. •-_ -' .'.

8.'" ~ 3.· O' I. ~

;:-t,.U'I:],.. O. C~ ,".

1~ , ..I.

h..

a s it is::exp la l~n e.d ? '
. ,.. ,1. .' .'
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A.

N"D. [Volunteers]
"':'!.

if I recall I had written 8:30

a.111 , 01]

\V4-1; because that

'.. .',.', WdS., th'e' tit .1111.c 'M'," 1-1':·'·' . ~ tc 'ld'! me ne r- a,', ·'.r,:>.,:aqqanl ',0",': .' h-: " h' 'd'
, ... .

-... d arnvec.d ir l'.onoon. In ,
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Itt......
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T ',.,
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mentioned onthe top ofexhibit W4... ? 1
.

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The John is my friend and business partner and lives in Se:viUe! Spain and
h t'l.e num 1·· oer
IS' hi ,.IS

hon te 1epr one numib.. r. e
. . , I I

,I

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Q

,

~

Did "John in Seville;' and the said telephone number have Ia11Y',' connection

with the conversation with Mr. Haqqani?

I

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,.1
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blue ink and the rest ofnotes about my conversation reel ink.
, ,
,

witli Mr. l-I?lqq.ani is

I

ill

;l,

iii, '-'l,.

Yes.;

It
,

().

Is it correct 'that this document is written on. a letter 1)ad. of Park.Hyatt Hotel Zuricll?
.
'

A.

Yes~
Is it correct that the said document

II

Q.

does not contain JVIr~ .Haqqanis
I
II

telephone number? ,~\;
(~~

It did not need to.
.,

111

what manner did, )1.0\1 start recording the conversation which allegedly
I

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took place
111<lC
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telephon.e· between you and Mr, Haqqani, which ultimately
.

1\ ' ,'Q' e th .b 'clSIS 0 if .ne prepara tk ,','(11 th. rviernorana"lurn. ne ron .1:" ne 1\ i[' " ,.. ,
.i ""i '. ~

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Initially in hand

011

\~l,4-1and then when he stared speaking rapidly I started

writ in'g. it on m
~vy
JL ........ _::. _ •

F_

y"',:

C,:O,',"

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mputer m a blank e·-:n,: '1]' ,
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Q.
A.

Does your Memorandum contain those type points also?

There were several points that were not noted
Is it co-rrect that those notes are ·T"11~.suggestion is incorrect,
.:

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.....

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part of the record?
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Q.

FOJ

how

10'11g

did. )'011 speak to Mr. Haqqani when you took down notes l r i :. I,
I

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the exhibit W 4-1

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As

1.

recollect, it was about 15 or 16 minutes but the exact duration is 111 the
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record which can be confirmed,
.
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Q.

Was the c2ill placed through tLe operator· of the Park tl:me 1,\erContinental

A.

I cannot sav whether it was tbrough the operator btLt whoever picked up the .1" 'I '
I

Q~

Did the 'person who answered, the 'phone take some time to contact Mr,

Haqqani?
A. I 'd'011 "t recall any' delay; it couldhave been 10 or 15 seconds, Before this conversation took place when had

Q.
~

you

spoken
I,

with N1r.

'.... 0( ()]] " t· ree-a.",. r ,,·t· · ',1'1
?
-:,,:0;, ",

Whe.n had you last met Mr. Haqqani before the telephonic call that you
,

,
,

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referred to? A.
I think the las~ time that I 111et
, I ~

,

1

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,

'I : with Mr ~Haqqani before speaking to him' was

.

,

in June, 2009 at my fund raiser, I may add that we. I1t1.d contacts through

B"BM a week before,

II I
, I

I

Q•

I '1/' th h 11 1 :itst tune YOll ano M .. H_,aqq3).11~JSCUS~s.ei the d Mr I ,. d" dI was the te l'epnone can the first ti
. I

II

message referred: to 'by you?

A,.

Yes. This was the first time. Regarding the telephone call that you said took Place ., , ,
was staying in. the, Parle Lane Inter Continental
i'

II

Q.

Whe.I1

Mr. Haqqani "1
I

Hotel was the discussion ~111 ( 1"11 1 [ d
I

POi!Tt by point or

W8B

it a general discussion?
,

A,.

Please clarify what you mean 'by general discussion so I can properly
,I
f
.1.

,

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answer the question,

(2.

What Lmean by it is did you exchanged pleasantries before the matter of the '~1,I I . I'
, ;I
II ,•

111eSS8:g,e was discussed?
A.

No,

'we

di~d1101..
• •• 1

1

Q.

Is it not a fact that W11el1. two friends
'I'i.,

talk to each other 'after
I

['tVO
.
I ,

years they
I~

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II,

) f '\

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first exchange pleasantries?

) rl'}' ., '1,:~ I' 1 ..

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r,

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A.

It 'WaS·l10tas if we had contacted each other

tor the first time' after two years
I

because

We

had in the interim period being ill contact

by exchanging

I

B,B.M

point, I rna y cJari fy that he carne strai ght to the J) 0 int.
~.
.

Q.

Is.it

110t

correct that it was a call fr0In, you and

110t (1--0111

Mr. Haqqani that I

s:

I had called him on.his request. [Volunteers] I did

I~
1l0t .kIIOW

where to call
111e.

Mr. Haqqani it was

ill

response to the BBM message informing

-where
I'

, ..

he was staying and he gave me the telephone and his room

number.

Q:•

Please see .your statement submitted before the Hon'ble Supreme Court of
'" i
011 page

Pakistan (W 4 ... 6) wherein 1 "we had
t

]2

ill

top second line 'you had stated that
r
I

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II

I

110t

sJ)Ol(e11 by telephone for some time, so w~ briefly exchanged
I ut it to you that your above answer .contradicts with the '-. I ~I'I
p; ~
I

nleasantries.'
'.'

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statement given by you 'before theHon'ble Supreme COtl11. of'Pa·kistan,;·
. . ~ I

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A
_

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There is no, contradiction,
I

1
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I

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II


,

~

I Jlut it to you that 'earlier
whereas
ill the

YYOU

had denied the exchanging pleasantries

1

I

II I
II

statementbefore
_.,~.

the I-I011,'~l)le upreme Court ofPakistan you S
....
!-..

stated
.. ~,.

'':_-

tJ"h!' you exch anged at
:.",,·.l
,"

...

c;...·u:,··.·.!'

'.:.

pleasantries
'.1.·

r...;!i

F,'

I'O';,,!;l} :.Jl .. Vlt

can

·,._:.,l

V':·O··l~.11.·,.··._, C·)· .. c"'1' I·' ~')Ot]1' these rec n ·_:,.· e- l...._. ....
¥
1 ...
,",-="'"

,~- . _..._t"·· era.t ements.()
I,'

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If you read my answer in full then there is

110

contradiction,
I
:1'

Qi.
A,.

How much time did tile pleasantries consume?
. 1 .~ I

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I·, '
,1

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Very little. [Volunteers] Tile kind of relationship
I '

I 'enjoyed with Mr.
I

III

Haqqani was he or I would s<ty "'Y0'\1 ate good" and the response would be
~~I m good" or something like a
811d_

we would get straight to the point,
,I
I

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1

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II I

I

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Q.

Youmentioned very little time. Please be, precise,
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·

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The note, ~x_hibit '1\14... ~,'i s wri tten all. a 1 '. Y·OI.l when you wrote tl1c 110te?

110 te i p~per 0

f Zuri ch, wher e were -~H III r I' ~
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'Q.

What is. the distance between Monaco and Zurich?

Q.

Zurich anti
A~

110t

in Monaco,

No.jt is incorrect,

Q.,
.

I

t'
, ,.,,:I.:
Ir

A.,

No that' s not correct I can prove that _I was
.
.
I .

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ill

Monaco on that date .. ,
".
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,
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-. rt correct that tl e ti . he time written on tl d hibi d Is · tne .'.ocument,. .cxru jt.··.4~1.~,._.oes npt
W" .. "

,II I

conform to the time that you stated-that

yO:U

spoke to Mr. I~a,qqal1i?
II·

A~

I have already explained the reference to '~'8.:30am" and my telephone record does disclose the time that I spoke to M.r. Haqqani..

Q..

Does your telephone record, contain the actual conversation that took place
~ ~', I

I'

~ I

"T~

.~

11,1'

,I

1-

i:

between

yO~L

and Mr. ,Haqqani?

Q

I

I put it to you that in this telephone call that
110t ask
.,

Y'OlJ

i,h:, refer to Mr. Haqqani did '
I:
I'

you to prepare' any message or memorandum,
, 'i

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,

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It is incorrect.
i . I

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II II,~ / I~,I (

fl "11'p

'Q~

I put it to 'you that the conversation that took place between Mr. Haqqani
1\,
I

II I

I .... ~ d and" yourselfduring
~
-

h id 1 h M the saio telephone ca 11was<+
' ,I'

.

I

T" , d" J Haqqani • persuading y?U
I .

not to 'write against Pakistan and the Inter Services Intelligence (lSI) and
.~
. ~~

I

kis ab ,0' ~u P 'Ll'\.· 'tan".. .;' S·'.~ 'N··· ear I" s sue a,.I' so ., ucl
_
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.Tl1tal"s .ineorrect.
. 'I

I put it to you that yout story about the Memorandum

is p~lre C017coc
I II I
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1

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It. is incorrect,
1 put it to
'yOLl

,

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III'

I

Q.,

that you have remained critical about Pakistan, the lSI and

Pakistan' S nuclear programme ill your articles.

At

My' articles speak for themselves and can 'be read for themselves. '
I

Q.

Please answer Whether your writings are critical of Pakistan, the lSI a~d
I

Pakistan's nuclear programme'?

"
I

!J .
III

.

~.

;,

I

A.

I consider-my a,rticles constructive criticism.
I
,.

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1

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Q-•

Pill!

it to,

Y'"
'-'

QU,

that your criticism was
.'

]101'

constrictive rather

:it vV'ClS hostile to
I

the interest of
L~,.

PaId stan.

I ,·

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II

II
,

,II'
1

I

I

I di sagree. [V olunteers] During tile last ten years that I have 1~110wn Mr.
'I' ,1 -',' , ' " I 'v' . . itt ber .",:~,atlqa11l h'nave wnuen" a iarge number '
f.

I

r

].:

~ '- ~

,"

,

Q_

f...-,,"".'.es . >_. d mractwe wrote~ one ·artie 1 ' anc ;.·t· ..set .:~ ...;.'. ,,..
I.,' . I'

"

I

~

I

..

;1:,

'
i

together which can he construedas

critical of Pakistan,

lSI or Pakisten's I· . ,
1 11

I

nuclear programme. Ifit is considered. to, be hostile then this 'is 'also the' 'view
I . ',_

~I

~ oj...v: 'H....aqqa!lL "·M' rl'
.. - .. ;' ,"_ : _.' ... " ~ ;', .. : ':1

i

A~

No it is

110t~

Q,.

I put it to you that you 'and Mr. Haqqani never co-authored

an article and I
I' 111~ ~~
I;, , ~It ;I} ,I
J

illrther put it to you that no such artie] e was ever published,
.

I!

i II ~'-~,' i,

l

A~

A~ regards that the. co ... authored with Mr. Haqqani

'VVtlS 110t

published it is

correct, however it is incorrect to suggest that w~ did not co... author an.
article together .
'I
I

.Ill factMr,
1

Haqqani wasa lead author and he S~llt the: same
'., , .. 1 r ~: 1- '-,
1

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, 1 ": Jill,

I

article for publication .. .I may be permitted to refer to the documents W 40.;,
1

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II

'I

• I,

1·1

XA,Q to W4~Xi\T

and W,4,mXAAAAW
,.,' e_". -_.. _••• _

which
r"

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the exchange of'
.;~~ i

correspondence
. -:_ _ __ , _. _, ~_. .. _, ;~I: . ,'.

-.'

which I want produced .
_
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should now be exhibited as they

Ca!11C all

record in response
(
,

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,

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to a question and th,a;;t the leafned counsel consciously purthe
.

I

.

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.

question

at his own risk, Mr. Bokhari

objects to -the
• I

hould I d '''' documents- snoui ',~nave b been producecd i the examinationin 111 1chief and that the documents are alreadv .;0:: • .,. .~ -.... _:

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record and under
_' • • "",.. ,. •• • '-.',

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objection
• .

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.marked respectively
•• •• of

as W4 XAO to \V4~~ T
e

X A'·" and W'-"'·4' ,d v '-.,-<AA.A,::W-,'c '...]

I

OR-'n-"ER'"
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Whether the documents can be exhibited will 'be decided
r"o ••

l

later:

.

I

Ii

I
I

Q.

Lput it to

Y(111

that the teleJ111011e call that took-place with Mr. Haqqani on

1

I

I

May 9, 20;11 at his room .in the Inter Continental Hotel Park Lane, hotel was -

regarding ·Mrt Haqqani persuading

Y'011

not to write the 1<i:11d
i

0.'1:'"

articles as
I

was published in.Financial Times on, May 3" 2011
,A.

I

I t 1.S incorrect _ · ~.

ld lik an d 1--'. wourc ..uce to me

f to reter

B-BM to_'-:';,-:,:-_: .message on M' ay 3 :~20· $1-: _"':1'
I

I'

,I

I

.sent by' Mr. Haqqani publication
. _ '.

ill

which 'he, actually agreed with the said as \V·4... XAAAA Y+
.".. h. ., ,. _ '_ _

written by me ir: his BBM message.unatked
. .'_ __, __ •• , •.. _ '_• • . __ .. ' __ , _.."

The views expressed ill n1Y·' article of May 3 20 11 'were the similar to .the .
lik

one's jointly expressed by' both Mr. Haqqani and myself in the article which
.

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we had co-authored, which is
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as \V4 ..,XAS and V\'4-X,AT,
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[Mr. Akram Sheikh, Advocate states that the documents
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should now 'be exhibited as they have been referred to in
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response
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to' a question
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and that the learned
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put the cuestion at hia own risk, Mr. Bokhari
'.

objects to the documents bei:ng exhibited
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the ground that the
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,dOCl'1111.eIlts

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record. and 'tinder objection.]
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Whether the documents can be exhibited will be decided
later"

Q ..
.

In which year was the alleged article co-authored with

Mr..Haqqani?

A ..

There is nothing alleg·ed .about it we co-authored the ..article in March, 2004.
DO. you know when Mr. Haqqani was appointed as Ambassador? I, di d
','_',
.

Q
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·:t' k n o 'l:II th. e exta C:···t~d a-+,e· b..:',Ui" t I k n _-,_.. 'W' :., '!Ii·I .. a t M..r .~.L _ '."_.____ '.':"_~'. ,P··C-)·l· n ·te··'·a"S-:~· - _- -_~'.' o th :-_-.',. Haq "q'. an' '1~ wa 8~" _-",_ _' d ". aI'.P' ~ "~/·_L_. ," _.
_. _,.-. ·V1 _. '~ .. ' -.'"
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Ambassador of Pakistan in June, 2008.
Did . .A.
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ou zive any..i,.... ;r· iew to Fox T-V'·: OIl Ma y:':' 3.· ~.. 2···0.·.··? nte.. .. .... v Ll ~ ".t;:i' '.' " .. ,
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· -'._, . . "'~1' 'e, It".:IS POSSI)_ ·1···· .
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' .. t· . ·t·"· rt e .. ~.'. ~ . if'; a. -1'..·1 '0. 111i.'rviews SO,l_:_. I 0
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interview " can answer the question ,preclsefY"

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A"

Please see this document, is it a transcript ofthe said interview?
TIle witness states that this is not the transcript of the interview,
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III May 9'120'1] telephone call that too}, place between you and Mr. Haqqani

Mr. Haqqani

ill

his capacity as Ambassador of Pakistan tried to persuade
COltlP0

you to be mild towards Pakistan after the relict on the
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und w~~c.,h

'11'd l kiuec TJ' sama biin L dien, La
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That is

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true and I can prove it to be

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true because on June 3,~2011 I

had written an article which was published in. the Newsweek ... TIle Daily'
I

Beast titled "Pakistan's Spy" Agency and Terrorism," exhibit ~'4R015~
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311(1
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after publication

of the same Mr .. Haqqani sent me all unsolicited BB.M'

which and I can produce a. Blackberry S]10t of tile message '[the winless read.
the message from his BlaclcBerry] which stated that:
... ' ..

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"Read tIle article in Daily Beast"
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I responded \vith the followinz messaae:
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decide to kill me toot © M1vfI"

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I received: your response at 18 :05 on the same (late, i~e,.June 4., 2011, from

Mr. Haqqani as under:
~'~'D011~t think

their reach extends to. Europe. Brainless

bastard ate'

] may clarify that by stating being "helpful"

I meant that I was putting
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across. tIle view point that 'was also held 'by Mr. Haqqani and the President
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of Pakistan and the reference boy Mr. Haqqani to brainless bastards is to IS.},.
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[TIle witness wants to produce the: BB·M screen shots of the above' 'BBM' messag es, but since the same have I
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been objected

to by Mr. Zahid Bokhari, Advocate,
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the same are marked

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as W'4 ..XAAAAAC· and \V4I

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XAAAA.A'Jl by ·t11e Secretary.
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'Whether the documents can be exhibited is to be decided later.

It .' ..lS
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T put ·it to yo_'ll that all the BBM messages that you have relied upon have not
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1 don't understand the question. Please explain what you mean by source
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all d verifi cati on.

[Learned counsel explains]
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or any other evidence
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and by'
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verification I mean verification by Research in Motion Limited or any other
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Forensically

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as

fat as RIM' is concerned I have learnt that RI,M does liol
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maintain content of the actual messages and logs after a certain period as informed to what
UTe.

and, Illy lawyers by ,RIMf. "1 don't however still understand
,

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by ~source' andit is. for the C01111n.issio11to decide regarding

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It is incorrect to, suggest that all the :BBMs I have relied
... .:-. '..:' ~ •

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on are. fabrication and
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I put it to you that all the BBMs have been created by yourself
It is iIICOITect to. suggest.

[Volunteers] I call IIp:Ol1.YOLl to demonstrate how'

Q,
.

'Please see the interview which you cave to 'Fox News [Learned counselhas
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or __ .... '.

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the intervi ew to the witness
'Y'Ol+ .Tul,

011 tile
.

computer

by:, accessing the
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e link .1! tl2;:1IlAr~Q ~

t1.tU b e,_~,C(_)IU/\V§.tc _l1 LY::J&J:5B IJ.)tC~ t$] ~ d

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Did you give this interview?

ed .... , .. "'1" stat ' [L earner CO'UTI.seStares. "th·--~t h .. ,.~', b ~ , .... , itt d tc ....at ne' may '.' . IJerm.l ~'"e, 1,0'
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enter into evidence the CD' and. transcript
interview tomorrow]

of 'the
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Learned counsel Mr. Zahid Bokhari, Advocate may
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have the C7Dand transcript ofthe interview exhibited,
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but. after showing it to the witness ~
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Did Y'o'ualso give an interview on May S~, 2011 on the 'radio talk show
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"Morning Majority"?
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It is possible; if
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I rna)' hear the interview I can answer the question

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give on the "Morning Majority"
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TIle document .. hown to me appears to be an accurate transcript of an s
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interview '...that "-.O(rave to the I '. ,', .. '~', "".~'~ .

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SllOW
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Mai ority ;.; The Secretary of the :J .. II'

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Commission has marked the document as exhibit W 4 ... 29]
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I put it to' you that

ill tile

telephone conversation with. Mr. Haqqani that took..
_. I I _..

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place on May 9., 201·1 in addition to the article published

ill

Financial Times

on May 12,. 2.01.1 tl:e discussion also took place about the interview that you

gave to Fox T'V on May' .3, 2011 and your interview to radio "Morning .
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Majority'
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.show on May .5, '.2·01 I?
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it .is incorrect. Further states that it was

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possible, within the available
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time to discuss about all the interviews and my articles which ran into thousands of words,
,

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'1 put it to you that

]11

the 16 minutes telephone call. between you and Mr .. ,
]'0.

Haqqani you have mentioned

the: alleged Memorandum a large number

1

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of topics, including the political scenario tile conduct at the Arl11Y, 'the

.. 1 ~:'.,. ~. f ..1 - ... f ]. 11UC.ear issue, the IS'1 Section-S ., 0·:::IS'" ; the formu 1" ation 0.' th.e

message,

inquiry to 'be conducted with regard to the May' 2~ 20,11 raid, ·th.e referred to debate, the matter of Afghanistan, the issue with regard to coalitio:q:1 PJ

willing, the episode of 1971 and something about Britain, could
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discussed in ] 6 minutes.

A.

.1 disagree, The number of words ~w1~itterl n my note, exhibit '·W4... , are o 1 . I' .: I '1 I 111 ' about 8"5 words and encapsulate all the major topics that were written
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except a few of
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I also started typing during the conversation but lido
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recall the exact number of words I wrote, '[he Memorandum comprises
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ofabout 900 words. The words in the Memorandum were considerably less
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than the ..total number of words in tlle interview and articles referred to
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I nut "it to. vou that the neither the entire interviews .. t". ; . .
reacl out to
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thezist of the same 'was conveved to. vou ~ I J.

ill a

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couple of 1:
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I dell)' tIle suggestion.

Q.

'Were all the points that formed .part of YQllr.11:~11d, ritten note, exhibit W 4-, w
,

:1, which you say formed _the basis of the Memorandum
,
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that . you sent,
_

d rscussecd d••. ...., .-- t hi: 16 minutes t.eiepr one ca; wnn }.A'... 'I'1aqqam (" .: ...-, -, unng :, IS ' ~J ,,-"--'-.' h,,." "'11-" - . tl' J.\Tl,,· ~ '-',,·- -,
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If;"y' ou include my notes tb at '1' ty ped in addition
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(W4,: ~ 1·: )'. tl;en th e~ n ..answer is Y'es
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TIle notes that I typed plus- the hand written :notes constituted what may be
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re feIT ed to as a first draft of:what resulted .

ill the

Memorandum thatI
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sent
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written as in an e-mail

header there are
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r ages as it is a rLU1!1111g< text.
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it to, you t nat the sal-

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11- did ;,.1 lUl'LI_!1 ca ._11.' 110t rest tI

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the h

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Memorandum?
A. It is incorrect,

Q,;

Please see page 71 of exhibit V\T 4... 6 which is all e-mail dated May 10 2011 1
1 ;

.. " t'··iI" .. '. ] _ .. ; ". d -~ tt .' f st ~ .. ] .... t ,t wnuen... b--. you. t ('~~, ... -J"""" oy -.-- "a,vrenera.....,ones , anc 11111e1fS· p,clrc:tgta11h wnereor f.you S"~.~ .' > ..:,..
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tb.. you are attaching a document that has been, prepared, at
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by "senior
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active
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and former Pakistani government
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officials) some of

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served at the
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highest level of the military ... intelligence directorates
senior political officers of the civilian government;"
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ill recent

years, and as

however, you have when the telephone
1

earlier

stated

that the Memorandum
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was drafted
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conversation

with Mr. Haqqani took p.lacc, which is correct? ..
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Both of my statements are correct ..I. want to exp lai 11.,
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Advocate raised

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part of the record, as Wt~-XAi\AAIJ and \V4... XAAAA'l.]
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Le t the witness I Sia)J what he wants; the
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ction will : be.
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my e-mail when I refer to senior Pakistani government officials 1. am
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referring to three g_:ntlemen, that Mr. Haqqani mentione1 to me in our
I

telephone

conversation

which 'wer.e General Jehangir
..

Karamat, I IGeneral ,
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Durrani and Mr. Haqqani, The reference to the active oftld~ Haqqani and to former Pakistani government officials is to the
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the military ... intelligence

directorates

in, recent years, I am referring to
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'.., d as "hi ef f' 'p' k Genera 'I I/' .. <.aramat, vY'110 d served as C~uer orPakistan ha
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Durrani, who had served as Intellig ence Chief
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senior political officer of the civilian government, reference
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~ak td Mr.
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did .'d f }' .' However; I ::''1:'' not identity the persons b oecausejust
110

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case the
'

document fell into the wrong hands, Therefore, there is
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inconsistency in
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testimony and the contents of tile said e-mail, Because the contents of
i....

~ v. ".... d .. ~ aictatecd[0 me ny 1\1" .[::, . t',' ......rvir. aqqam dmnng OlIT t,~. ep',,·~ne bv .. ~....'. ".... el ,..- hi' ....._ t1re M'emoranaum were d
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conversation and it was Mr. Haqqani who had told me that it was General !. t, I;' l' . r' .' Karamat and General DtUT~i .who, were going to be the part of the. National
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Security Te a111 Il1 the e-mail sent 'by Genera; Jones '. ,

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me on July, 6; '2.009
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(\V4~XAAAAV)" which General Jones wrote at the time when ·11ewas US
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National Security Advisor [NSA]; stating that Mr. Haqqani is "doubling as

N'SA until they
, iaqqanl.,. I~
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name another" and solicited my Opil1~~on.of Mr.
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Is it correct that there is " ~,
,

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such organization as N'S,A,. in Pakistan even r' '11 ' '1;1 ' I I'" I
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today?
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I don't know,
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Previously
members

in Pakistan there was a National
of the said Council

Security C9unc~111 nd .the a

were all elected pcliticians
I

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and senior

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members of tile armed forces; is it not so?
I

A~

I have no idea about the composition of the National Security Council nor
I' I
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whether it ever existed, I know that
was also acting as National

.

Mr. Haqqani

I

told General
I'll

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that he

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Security Advisor

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addition to .Ills job as
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Ambassador _ United states of America. It is also well reputed that Mr .. in
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Haqq ani is a: verv close: confidant of tile President of Pakistan and.es.such it ... . .J. ,{"!; ,
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is very conceivable that the.' President of Pakistan.,,. Mr. Asif AliI .Zardari ~ ..... . _ ..~..- .. . .., .~. ,~ '". "".' " -.. '~n- ..~.~,f .'-I .
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gave him this additional charge which is at the very heart of'the issue of tIle
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Please see page 71 of exhibit W4-16 wherein in paragraph 1 y?u make
"
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m.. ention ofvsenior active and former Pakistani governmentefficials,
.

some
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,of whom served.' at the higthest levels of the rnilitary-intelligeiice tiirectoi~ates .. 5 I'i
in recent
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y.

••.•

ears and-as senior P olitical officers of the civilian ··avernnleI~f~' .... ·:I~".:'··· ..:..' ',' ." . I I 111
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however, in
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hand written note (exhibit \\l4,-1)·. no'
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m.enAon ds'!~ade
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the said P ersons, what clo y, ou have to say?

,A.

It is correct that those persons are
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mentioned

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the note but t', \Va11t to
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C1arnf... that . ~ 'Y' 1

h d~'" II , . f tr e 110te cannot b.e reao 111 180 lati :: . .ation biecause I' retained :.ma11Y or ,
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the things 'that were discussed and jotted down the essential

thitJ:'gs. 'The
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SSM screen shots No.16 and 17 may also be seen wh e rei 11 refe]:pence is made to General Kar.·a:·-:.1:11at G. eral Durrani and and +en _._ . _. _. '. L~ . .. .
3 .' ". ."

fact f~he··,,'y·:'· w,· ..ere. not . tL _ v... , , II the only two people but there could 'be more persons on the proposed
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National Security Team,
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...,", ~ -~·li •..... ", 'rnar he kram . ieuc 1, :Jla·, [M''':',.. .A"k"· . " : .. ' S·····h~· .h s·ays tl at tl.ne saio e-man··1~l~t-at i .as.
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shou Id bee'~,' independently.J
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exhibited
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so t o the 'BI:3 sere en M
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No':! 16'-.
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and
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17,; Mr. Bokhari controverts the position and states
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that the e-mail is already a 'part of the record and
,

neither it 'is exhibited. nor is it proof but it is

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has 110 t b .. acnuuec-:') t us, I:r· f .... stajes . rnatt b~' ...."' oeen . A ... itt f. oy .c ,,"'lerurti b er t +. ,-· ...... ." oy
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putting a document to a. party does
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prove it. The
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p urpose was
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to con front

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hi 'hsalle ge d. I '.'
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hand written notes. And as regards BBM screen shots
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In v.ie1tv O..,'f~"~he obJ'1.',<; c ti ons taken t '"
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"I I''e b . edrd! ng·:· the' B·.8':'0/[ ~
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screen shots referred to by the JJ~•.• "" JI ,~" .•••.. ~ [ J _ ••••• ~

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reference to the same, therefore whether the same can ,
be exhibited will be decided later atter bearine the. 0'
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parties. However,

as regards the e-mail Mr. 'Bokhari
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he.. nimset ~. conJ~on.e~ ·t·'·:· e rl::· .nt. d': nos j: .'. 9Z"f'· '.' n

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itnes: .. ··t'} ness VITi"
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Illj ~"I,er~ ore
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'the: ·:it",.. '.

the same is io be exhibited. The j..)ecretary·:-'t(j1mar/, the I ,.

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document as exhibit W4-301J
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In your e-mail

exhibit W'4~·.3.0 to General Jones you state that you are
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ill the

e-mail, Is that correct?
or ]10al1.S~Verto
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There can be no yes and had made the
','.-, ,-'

the question ..When.I spoke to~1=Iaqq~11i
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ote (exhibit W4~1)' and typed in
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computer -as
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~ dmeabout tl rnentionec d. ear I" M" r rr qarn ..".t' ier, ..... riaq ~ln.10l'111e·: a out the me
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SIX: .P01Jlts
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'h''. 1''1 wntcn tile

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'President of Pakistan was offering- to the Government of U nited .States, TIle . I
de:v·el0'PJ11~.11~ the contents of

of the document which subsequently c~a111e~1 to
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be known as Memorandum was l11S' brain child and those of tile ~leI~sons ho w he claimed were involved, 'which Included General Karamat and General I:, ,I· ,I I
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Durrani and that this group ofpersons will constitute the proposed Nationa.;
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Security Team, In nly e-mail I did not disclo-se the
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of, the said ' ~~·I" I
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proposed team, [Further states] Initially there were seven pcints.
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III

your e-mail you have not used the word developed?
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there, it is r.ot there
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I -}Jut it to y-ptl that what you havre said is an after thought?
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It is not correct.

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Is it correct that there is no mention of a. National SecuritvJ~ Council or Team .. .
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in. your e ... mail t<) General Jones (exhibit 'W4~30)?

A.

It is correct.
,

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Lput it to you that you have maliciously changed your stance and attributed
tl "." . ,'1e,'san1e t· ,0
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'M ,.? "' ..". "[":1"· , ' r. r..aq,qal11~:.
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.h 11 ~ 1. l' I S .' co-rrect that your allegation that the Memorandum it
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...l was... prepiarea
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the
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direction It does

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asking of Mr. Haqqani is not supported by any one? need to be because Mr, Haqqani conceived
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message, provided all the contents of the message, 'acknowledged? thet he ' ~ '1'1 ' ~ ~II~ I had received the message, edited the messageand then authorized rue to
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transmit it to
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US contact, and Mr. Haqqani stat-eel that he was ~,pin,g so
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'the authority ofthe President of Pakistan.

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It is. incorrect to suggest that

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answer is wrong.
the message himself?
,

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Q.,
A.

Was it not easier for Mr.Haqqani to draft. and
III

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our conversation of May 9,~20'11 I asked Mr. Haqqani point blank as'to
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W11Y J.1ehas chosen

me and

not

C011Ve.yil1g

the message himself, andhe made
.
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it. clear to me that when .11e is hI the 'USA the eyes and ears. of the lSI and tile

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establishment including the Military Attache were-on ~11il11~a:~1,d! .b'e~~llse-the " I' . matter was verysensitive he wantedto avail .an outside channel so' that it is
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revealed that there was any Pakistani hand ,
.

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ill getting
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General :g:,ay':.'anito' .
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stand down He asked me because of our 1ong standing relationsllip:" and
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friendship and 11ealso-knew that I had, the capacity to ensure the delivery of the message ,..WJ11Ch was_ time sensitive--, and because I could 'be a plausibly'J : -'. ." ..'. ."'. .. c .. " '--- ._ .... '. , . __ ,--,
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· a '1'·'" rerer .:,t··'·'··~, so ,,-..,t.····. ~O Illy

..B··Jj).~if ",,,"~I ···J)'·-rYl

;;.,. screen

8110t
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N,o.0'29' (marked as W4-XY)·· in which Mr. Haqqaiii wrote to me
• ••• \ ".. _. ., < .' '-. •.• ••• ••• • •• •• "-• • '. • •• .' . •. '-' •

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seekmg a-clarification about the reference to ",M'~ and whether it TI}e,a:nt the
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/hi ~11·c ,," mean t\~d"'l~'l"r-'a' Mullea; there wa 1, A,:-iJ!o" 8' 1- ~'r W'~··l ~ .. ~. ll';e·.,' · .. t :r;~'''_"LI. ,u .. "1'!,[, ~'_""', .
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in for h'im'
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to make this query if themessage had.not been sent tohim. Lastly.Twant to state that t4e e- mail I sent to. General Memorandum,
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J OI1es ~ which
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contained
,
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the
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'was also, copied to Mr. Haqqani however after removing
'. f 0 'h ,:I In'. certain persons there rrom, "".ver the years we .have exchange d
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t: reterencesto

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berof e..mans, a. lilargenumber o e-mailsv so . is it
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1"P:_8.USlb 1 for Mr, Haqqam · to e ~, M II
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that 11e did not receive

with the final GQPy!h'; of tJ1~. I, :I Memorandum, If Mr. Haqq ani was objecting~',' to any of this he surely.' could .' ..J I' ' I, the said mail

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"I "f'M" , have done so when " ca.11 d h· m at' h · request t on t e 1U0I:~ll1g0::',lay 10" I .. ec .'n his 011 th '.,',
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2011 at 6 minutes past 9 in the morning.

III1

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III ,
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It is not correct to state that I did 110t send the e-mail to 1\I1r.Haqqani :mld. Mr. .
1 "'
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Haqqani did

110t

receive or respond to' the .e-mail.

,

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Q.

How many.' times have y".OU met.Mr, Haqqani in the last ten years, '. excluding' · ' .' . ", I
.'

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,

the meetings that have talc-eon place

ill

the High

COI11111iss:i(J~1

of Pakistan

during tliese proceedings?
,111..

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AIJ6'ut a dozen times.

Q•
u,

I put it to, you that

111 the

last tell years you

118 ve

met Haqg ani thri ce?
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It is incorrect,
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.

I put it to'

Y'O'U

that there 'was no contact between,

y'OU

II

and Mr. Haqqani for
'I

the period May 2; 2011 through to October, 2{)11 ?
I

II'
III!
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A,;

It is incorrect, [V 0 lunteers] W~ exchanged a number of B,S·M messages in
. "

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and September, 2.011 and, I remember one exchange because It.alarmed ,
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me and it changed my view of Mr. Haqqani, In thi~ yxch~Jige he"told I L ' Il fer ,I I:
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me
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that he was planning to leave the post of Ambassador and reaching out to .. i 1 ~J ' '(', ' his friends,
,."
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in which he included

111.C;

to explore OI1tioJl.S about what be
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S.110111d
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do next, I responded by telling Mr. Haqqani that he had done a good
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job and that America needs 11i1nand Pakistan wants him, l1e; responded by

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.. .h In ha: I'd' '~l "A . · saying t "at ",'. t, at case I' s.,houic tel! 'Y' our guys ..." .the semor Amerrcan Lei h 1'1
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officials that I knew, that if they want their problems solved
!

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~'J1.Pakistan,

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" dIll t"I t i ~.

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Q.

I put it to you that your claim that

YOlI

were a friend of Mr. Haqqani is
I ,

110t

.
II

correct as you.were simply an, acquaintance

of his?
1

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.

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it is incorrect, [Volunteers] If he: was a mere acquaintance, we would, have
110t

exchanged 85' e-mails over ten years: .Both of

11S

helped each other to'
I ' ,
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b 'I'd
','111 ' '"

' .'. .,/,. ",,,;', up our media presence after 9··11 events -. nd the fact that he 'spoke. at " a
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charity fund raiser also suggests that we were ,tl~i.end .. s.
.I
ill

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Q',.
,

1. 'put it to you that in, vi e''\vof your claim being
intelligence deniable agencies of the world y"OU. cannot view

constant. touch ,witt1 the
1

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claim to pe a.. plausibly
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ellann el

ill

of the tact that you were under constant
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surveillance b''. such azencies? . J ._.
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i'd' 1 ,,' 'd I .I 1.·C:{' 110t claim as h b ras neen suggested. .', would , request that
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statement
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that 1 gave earlier should be read. Plausibly deniable in this case .meant that

.' S0111(j_() d y m p" axistan. f b: '.' i ki . ,to; 1
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e S estaonsnment, , . tc. '1 ,.,.. ..

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t .",].." 'I-mean- T',.,:,. ana S I' '." d wnicn ,. .'
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A" ".,,_. Army,

fi= ~111:".

d'

out

that the message 11ad been conveyed through me no "b:ody

i11

the Pakistan

establishment would believe that I had done it because of ray .critical stance
against the Pakistan
ally

establishment.

As far as I know I. am not under
I, t· •
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surveillance of

intelligence agency,
1

I

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'Q~

1put it to you that 'your aim in the creation of the Memorandum and writing , I I l l I 1 I
I ~ I

an article in the Financial Times was to' create a conflict between the elected government and the Army"?
,A~
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That is incorrect for the reasons that Mr, Hussain Haqqani and the President of Pakistan Mr Asif Ali Zardari were trying to subjugate the Army and lSI
. ,. . _._ , .-. .• , iii ., , r." ~
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Mr. Haqqani has been working with the lIS intelligence officials and helped
F
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orchestrate
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ar1 entire movement to allow 'CIA; NS.A and defence personnel .. .
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to b e",p- r es eni
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Pak istan to pro..eet A"·· eri can l' ntesre st S? Hi S·'· act'10', "']~1'c.... t me... "led to: a" j~l. .
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conflict between 'General Shuja Pasha and Mr. Leon Panetta, the tI1e11 . C.I}\ . 1
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D]reGtot, ()ver the question of the permissible number of Ameriean officials
ill

Pakistan ..As a result of the American presence.in
. .

Pakistan.the American
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'bl ~ b 1 .ocation at...Usama.bin . '.' .. 0 ovemment was able to ~ tl mtormation nbout the 1 ," zather f"" ~
\

Laden, tile No.l enemy of the USA~ The President of Pakistan 'Iand NIT.
, , , I I

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Haqqani created the environment of conflict for which Lhave been blamed, I· "

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1 f" M 1 WIlen. the event 0'" .". ay '" 2011- took :p'Iace, 2,. . -

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he lC~ the l "II'.111.g U of .rsama
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Laden, it is

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'belief that the President of Pakistan had given permission to
I
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U1e President of 'USA a.. uthorizing the raid, without consent or consultation
I

with the Army or lSI. Consequently, the Army was embarrass~'d which
further created the :C011t1ict.,

II ,
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.I put it to you tl1.at your allegations, belief and assertions that vou have made ,l
. . ,-..' I'

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are false and frivolous?

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It is incorrect,
'[M','"I.. Z'·~al·;"'-·dB'~'······kl,,1..,.... lea '., '·d·' CQ'U.l1Se ,'l~ sta ec ~I,.,,·a't- he I.w,,'annted ,.. ' . ,"., . rtatedth ,:-e.~, :~.f_ _11' ·0 knar 1, ieame ec

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to

110W put

questions regarding the telephone call s as find

important to' inform Mr. Bokhari about the documents received by the Commission
envelope through
,

,at Islamabad in a sealed
~ Parcel Force
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courier
'

(globalexpress
.

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Worldwide) containing
which are 'as under:

t\VO

letters. and a bill, the details of
1
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(1)

.A letter titled "Certification 'of' Incoming/Outgoing

Telephone Calls on 02·~U:K Carrier i-J1
No.4 713354
w_

Ma·y· 2011 on
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dated February 28, '2012 signed by Mr. Neil
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Ge thi n'.b' 'D' _ QC- .t0·' r,I.,' R-'e '.'. I') C) ck Ie·'' 'I l -r td ~,l.. .'""1" r .. d ::\._ \"1\.. ..... . l'_J '.,~
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distributor of 02 Telefonica UK;coritimling1and ·c~l1:ifying , ". the 11 incoming and outgoing phones! made frorrti1umber
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-'-44 77303377111" as recordedjn
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Mr. Ij.az~)s testirnOll)7 of

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--' l:,r,~j .,'-l,;!:o __ i,.J-~.,,:' F~-ebruarv 2"'4'-: 2':;0-12: at page '3'·'2-''J: ,::,' , =", I

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addition the. said.' letter
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also, states that another call (12th call) was also made to the

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number 1617'9532835
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May 12" ,2011 at OO:40'~:50 hours of
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00 :,03 duration. The letter also explains that the destinations
mentioned as Bournemouth, London, Blackpool, Duplicate,
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d et_c,.,:",o

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t 'h .. " necessan "~I rer f:eCI" the termination 'destination "Y
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a' a~' C-,-' 1'1·!i.,~S'-- th
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th e'-' L] 'SO"~ m ob"1'1'
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numbers for UK landline destinations
' th e 1 lead zero·~

as ·t11e system omits

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(2)
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information provided bv Mr. Neil. Gething he J
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has also disclosed the calls that have been mentioned at
,

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page 32 of the evidence and. that the 1,~~t call was .an 'out'

can,

211d

call was an 'out' call, Y~_caJ.l was an 'in' call; 4th ' , ,
~

call was

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'out' call,
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was .an ,.in,".c-al1~ 6tl.1 call
all

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h all ~out' ca11, 7-til ca 1-1 was au .out'~. ca1-I, 8 t·,. cau was .. , .~

.-~:; can, ]1 '~11
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:9fh call was

a11

"out' call, 101h call was an "out' cell, 1: 1'th call

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was an "out' call and the 1:2th call was an 'out' call. (3)

1~11:ether letter, under tile same title as the above o
oj!" -

letter, dated February Pierce,
ACCO'UlltS
,

28, 2·012 is signed lJ'Y Mr, 'Stephen
,
ill

Director, Red Rock K'T Ltd of London,
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and dis-closes the name ofthe entity
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whose name tile bill
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is issued 'and it is stated that" "This body we have associated
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with
,

:Mr..

Ijaz,

, and
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the

b"l mobile "( I

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'+4477303.37711.
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'TIlis 11uI11'ber is for the exclusive use of
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Encl os ed with this letter is all original bill,
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comprising of 39 pages, issued by Telefonica 'UI(, Limited
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and displays the

"92" name on every p~~ei
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Mr. Zahid Bokhari states that the above information has
. I

served. 11i~ purpose and he does not want to ask questions.

011

the sa id telephone calls.]

Q.

I 'put it to 'y'ou that your statement in its entirety before the Commission is

false and you also submitted a false Witness Statement
T· b·efore ..the Hon bIe· Supreme , ."':'. .e ~
,..'! . '.;) .' . .... .

(exhibit 'W4-'16)':
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1. deny the suggestion.
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I have made

correct

statements

before this
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rd IUY witness-statement IS aiso correct. ·1 commission all', mv wi
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[!\/IT~ Z.rC:111i,dBokhari, learned counsel for 'MT" Hussain Haqqani states that he has
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, conC\!,ll,:e'-,,:JS cross.·.... . l' d d hi ., ~ '1 · examination 0f the witness ]
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A'" Z'~"I F~A":' 1::·Z·::··· IS'

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Chairman

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.MUS1=II[{ .AL.AM Member

',' .. _.'<_ :: ..•. r . ·'-:.::.J·, . .R -.... ' N RAI[M'A' IQ' ' BAL HA' ME'-'E"D'... U ..... : .~..'(.. Member

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MtircI118~ 2012~ Recalled, and reaffirmed, We have been provided with a compact disk (CD) said to contain
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th 1 · ~ . th e interview tbat the witness 18 statedl' to 1 nave...grven to
t· •

F ·O····'X·- rI..... •.... V·· >,

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which the witness states
. ....

Call

be heard by his counsel ,8JJ-dthat he l)as
. 1 ~ • 1 ._.

authorized him to state whether the same is the. interview that was
earlier played ...out before the Secretary in .London.
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,

Mr. Akram

Sheikh, learned counsel states that he has seen.the CD and-the said
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,

•••••

erview
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r""le' corded ;11'" .iL .~.
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it l' s tl· e
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sa ~'11-1"e·:' 0'- :11' e .. _ ~. .... ,...

a 1'1"c··J.l1as 'no \:~." '.. '..t1"0'1 n ·- '" ." ~·b:·J~e::c.· l. ,~, _'
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the ,
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C·D to be exhibited, We have therefore marked the said CD as
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[At the outset Mr.. Akram Sheikh, Advocate objectee that the
learned Attorney General cannot 'cross examine the witness since .the

learned Attorney General is purporting to 1101c} two ·lJ·osts,~hat is t
..

IIOt

envisaged by the .C·O'Ilstitution of Pakistan in that, he is acting as
I

Attorney General and..also represented the Federal Government, and
th " M.'···;IIllS, flies 0,. D' ef '.' .' F~"'~" ~ ,- A·· f:.c. . ': ~. 'L.aw, -. ..e ..' , ist ... . 'f' ,-e,ence, ~'or,elgll '. ,1.a~.IS;,·
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t .'.z • ~,' .~ .llerlOI~,5 ·all~ltI" Ie·
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G_enera" ..:~",:_;,elOI-e·le "" C'l' Jie. ,0if A'.. ief "'rmy 'S" ff ,~( ,.'ltec ·..t'or.' '.... ,', ..·'1 IS::1" boo' -.~ .' ~'" ·t··-} ,.ta.". and D",..,,~. ,

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Supreme Court of Pakistan. lie. further states that the' Attorney
General has to choose either to appear in his capacity as Attorney
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General or

bebalf of tile aforesaid parties, 'TI1:e learned Attorney I I II _, ~ .at: nai rus -','~' '. -~'"'' ·1·"· response states ~ th t 1,:'" prunary me-·t··"uve IS t···· aSSlSt the ,0 ne G enera In, ~.); I\ ,f P I " ,I
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Commission
outset
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coming to the truth, He further states that at the
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'1 d" ; these proceeamgs r 1 h d ~ c. ne na ... mrorme:d tl . '1'; .is,appeanng thathe . -'-, ~,.
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both

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his capacity, as Attorney General for Pakistar; as' well as i. ~ i; 1 t· I I, : I

representing

tile Federation
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of Pakistan,
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which

includes
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the

President of Pakistan, Prime, Minister, the entire, 1Cabinet, all the , ~ I'
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ORDEI{
Sub-orticle (3)

of Article'

100 .oj' the Constitution
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Pakistan
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stipulates that it shall be the duty ofthe
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Attorney General to giv.e
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advice to the Federal Government and ta perform such. other duties . ,j ". r
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of a legal .character, as may be referred or assigned. to him by the
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Federal Government and ~nthe performance
1 nave } •J t1.€ rignt

ol;hi'¥:,lduties, he shall ';
,

f~ :1· (r' auaience

.. . in a.if.'"courts

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: 'b I In - ki anai trio l.lna:'t~~ P akistan.TnL
..

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our opinion the sate!" prrovisiol1 does not exclude I~a ~II including the instant one, created pursuant to the order of the
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HO.n 'ble Suoreme Court of Pakistan. 1'.
,

The learned Attorne)) General i" .
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had appeared before the Elan. 'ble Supreme- Court ofPakistan
f' aer · qfthc Supreme (). 1ld' tne (1.. ".--. .. .
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and the'
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C'·",· . t, ..ett! -. ourt, J.~e,tlng.. this Commisston,'.. us C""r. ".. s-:, ,',. '.
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. 't '- lat , supuuuea·t·· t1, ·t' .J1.a.

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the stateme.,.}., oj Z··-'.-.'.ne, Atto.omey ssenera, tna t 1.' ,l~l nis ..... enaeavot ('1 -- ).,. ·-t·- "-h it-: 7'---' d' tne .,;. . ··t f' tear "d' :_. .
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to assist the C70 mm iss ion' in ascertaining the truth
11e' should [not be permitted
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not see l'phy

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to cross examine the; witness. Mr. Akram
1.

Sheik h

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J10· ...W··'···e·~vBr.', will '.', --

be e')·nt.it.le(/ t·o··raise obiection to.'. any .. '.' _. I '. .." .. .{. .. JJ . ".' _.'. '.... particular .
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.q. uestion and such obiection will be determined at the-relevant time. ,J . ~
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It is c-orrect to suggest that the laptop computer lying in front of n.ie [We can see a . ,
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_laptop computer and thy Secretary of tile Corn mission has also confirmed that a
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IU:IJtQP computer is placed

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the table in front of the witness] is' the same computer,
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from which, during these proceedings, the documents were printed and produced,
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'Q~

Are all the articles authored, by you and published are, these stored
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hard drive of this laptop computer?
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articles, i.e ..from 1996__ when '. ...

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first article was published, '~
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till 2000 .
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'not be in it, However, I have hard copies of' all my articles

·atl,l1om'e.
I

Q.

Does vour computer also store all published articles whicl; had been written .,/ ~ I about
)10U

or with reference to you?

No.

Q~
,

Would your answer

ill

respect of tile, aforesaid question
,

1P:~ the
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same :if I

limi t the peri 0(,1 from July, 20, 11 onwards?

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I may have some ofthe articles" but I certainlv d'.o not have aIJJ1'-,"1' '0'·' fthem . ... ~." _. '_ .~._ _ --_ .. '".. .~,._ _; .11, ,
JJ. ',_ '_,',

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,

'00 youcontribute articles/opinions
.1 I,, ~!:.~.

to the ':Cable 'News Netwerk (CNN)?

A

I11ave, 011 one or two occasions.
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Do you know Mr. David Frum, who is also a contributor to ~NN? I don't know Mr. David
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personally
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abo·~t him, He has
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extensively written against me with regard to. this matter.

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Q~

Do you have an article contributed on December 8~ 201 \ byMr, David
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FrlU1:1?

'

I don' t have it~ ,

Q,'.
A.

How did Mr. Frum describe you. 111 the said article?
if . ..-

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. J' ~ ~ I (i-on 't reca, ] 1,.ut i 'was In .negative terms. [Volunteers] In Iview . but It

0:'

f t 1 .... 1e:fact
1

Mr. Frum defamed me my lawyers in. Washington informed . himI that if 11e .. ~ l' •
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does not retract I will be taking legal action against him,
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.l put it to y.: 'ou that the contents of the said Memorandum €ln an ate entirelv '
• !o' •

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fill '

rt,0111.

your article published
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May 6, 2t1"11~ exhibitWd-Zx?
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It .is incorrect to suggest that the Memorandum
• • ..

ernanatcs
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.fl~011~ the

said

article it) any way '. ['V0 lunteers] I mav also add that the Memorandum
,0.

eman ate d. entirely from Mr. Haqqani and that Mr. Haqqani and I s118Te·d
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similar views as demonstrated in the joint article authored by ~
. .

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which has

not been published, but some extracts from it have been fubl~~~~d in the
Pakistani news paper "The News" of today' (i.e . March 18,2012).,.
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Q~

I put it to

Y'O'U

that your claim that you

I11et

Mr. Asif Ali .Zardari, the I
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C01Tect?

A,

I had met the President of Pakistan in Washington DC on the said date,

which call be further established from the e-mail I wrote to Mr. Haqqani
I I

and he responded to the same as call 'be' seen from documents marked as,
,_ I .

W4-XM~811,d W4"XAG,.

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Q.,

Please see the last question

and answer,
,

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page 49 of your testimony
I

wherein reference is made to BBM Screen Shot No~[018~document .marked a'S' W4·,.. . XU, wherein you stated that you have "additional information",
' ,, 1I
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ulease tell. 111ethe date and time when you received the refet'red to additional ft _
II

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information?

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A..

I don 't recall. 'Did
.

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Q,

y'"QU
'.'

get this additional information after -YOlI bad spoken II General to . 1~

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Jones?
J:I\_;

Yes.
t-

,,"

Is it correct that your complaint of alleged intimidation was .conveyed to the
--

Commission by' yourself or through your counsel?
"

A.

Yes
'. ~;':

oF.

Q

"

1. put it to

y'O'U

th.. your beliefs, assertions, at
I~

opinions and statements
.~ ;.,
1."1

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expressed

and
if' .~,

made regarding
ct? InCOlre'c '..
•... . ".'

the origin. and authenticity

of the

· .. M'-"''' · rand llll1 ale e.lllOlaTI.:.. ' ..
A.

No.,
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Q.

I put it to you that

yOU3

are a reckless, fantasist and motivated by childish '1 I ~
, .. : 1
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vanity' as' regards the subjectmatter of the instant probe,
).

,

1'1 '•• '

A.

False. 1 d'e11Y the suggestion. [Volunteers] ] did In'Y' Bachelor

ill

Physics

fr01TI the 'University of Virginia and Masters in Me chani cal Engineering
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from the Massachusetts
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Institute of Technology (Ml'T), , which are 'both
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I spent prestigious I"';' )! nstitutions,

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lif h r. entire ure spea kiIJ1gt~lt·. to~f,o,wer ror _.:
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those who don't have a' voice, whether in United States', of' America or
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P akis tan or any other country, where I Eelt that Ithere was a~need to redress · the grievances
-

,0f

people

WIlD

I, s 1 d 110 voice. In,the early' al',~.f110011 no voice.T ~ "'1 nac
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f 0·,'

~M May
"

'9; 2011 I was living peacefully in Monte Cristo,

M0118,CO
.

w.~·enI received a .
!,

BBM message from Mr. Haqqani asking meto call him. LW11ell I 'did Gall
1
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him he asked for help and I volunteered my assist.ance,ilo Ambassador
.

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I7Ia'q,-" qani, In response to' my right to 'speak freely through
., ,

---

-

-

.

.

li~y'article's I got
I '

,

the wrath of the entire government of Pakistan, including ~e denial of the Foreign' Office the_. denial of the_ Office" of. the_ President ef Pakistar; the " ." " _', , ., _ _ c., ' . _. "- ., ". ,
I' . -', --, -_. ,. -,. "-

.

I

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.

denial

of Admiral
II

Mike Mullen,

I assert that Ambassadoj' Haqqani
, I, II

I

orchestrated

the denialmade by Admiral 'Mike Mullen
I

and

,b."a,dhe audacity t ,
I ,

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of telling me in advance that he would do so. I further I assert that that
-1.- ' .st .."t «l , A· nb: , ado an,d 1"'" Sl11'1JO rte -,' 1110.,1:U,-· ing M'''''' i:..r:·anan . UIi' IT ,n11; orcnes IIa e! n1.JdSS,a '.9+ lIS xers, ".", - d~' ," "_:' r "1'(-' - ',,' --:c"r'~- ,..1;
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the affidavit of General J ones that 'was. submitted to' the Hon'ble Supreme
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the above are facts and demonstrate that there is; 'neither fa-ntasy nor ·V81.1ity ,
Ol11UY

part. I have also appeared before the Commission to testify truthfully
I

and whenever I have brought forward the truth no evidence to refute or
rI

I

contradict what I have stated has been provided by Mr. Haqqani.
, ..

'I

u 'I 1'1 ~ I~ [The Learned Attorney Generalstates that he has concluded his cross examination]
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Q.

You had earlier stated, that after the May '2~,2011 raid, the Pakistan Army
I

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was embarrassed, if this was
.

80

then when you received an. 'intervention
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request from Mr. Haqqani premised
'.'.

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a possible unconstitution .. coup a]
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Pak istam by the ru1:"I'l'Y-: ~,,LJ· - .". ",('. .

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'ere

_.

y:-'-O:U::; _ '.'11-.. ot .- .. '

scepti cai?~ .1
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I,. upon the request of Mr. Haqqani, called. him
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May 9.; 20~ 1 and be
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pressed upon me the. urgency of the matter and that a message must go out
I .;\'~ ,I,
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to, the United 'States Governmenf,~.~ -_re£erably:.· to, Admiral .Mike Mulle.n~.b'y,·.: . ,If I~ p·..
I

May 11, 2011 who should imm edi ate 1)' intervene. 1 'P" ,11011ecl General J011es 1
,

and when I told him that Mr. Haqqani had askedme to 'convey this message
:
, . I) .',

I

he was sceptical about an)' message- conv-eyed by Pakistani officials, I then
I·' I

tried to contact my intellig tence sources, both former and active and which -'., '. I ~ II '. ~d 1' inc 1- udec b' th A'mencans as \\'e',1 as non Americans, . .I received ,resp011ses ':0,':1-.
I
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from three sources; two of whom informed
~ .., 'I -,--

me about unprecedented
1 -" . --

movements of General Pasha and another sent me tile document which I
I.

'1'"' 1 .d.. earner ta

des ~ie:d as a. "transcript .~ t wrnc 'b" 1$ a ,!1og 1~>0t1',a111e"·,n the 't · t tai d I 1 .escn b but ll. .. :.~
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envelope (marked as W4-XAAAAAA)

sent to the Commission. I therefore)
1
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came to reasonably believe the assertion ofMr. Haqqani,

II
,

,

I

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I

Q.

In your informed opinion did the Government of America, ~orkil?-~ thr6ugh , .
the 'various agencies under its command, had the ability

determine whether there -was the possibility of a COllP after the event of May
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,

I~d capacity
II
I
.
,

to
'

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A,

It is

110t

possible for me to, know with any precision, Circumstances can

change, the conditions on the' grounds can change and the methods and

sources of intelligence can change,

Q•

When Mr. Haqqani, as
it
1101'

y."
.

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state, informed you about all imminent COU,P"-"'lwas
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sufficient to 'simply convey this to the American Government in case
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t

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wanted to play a role

il1

the prevention of

SUC]l
1I

coup?
110t

:
, 'I

Mr. Haqqani's

posrulation

of the problem
I I•

was
I

simply to: tell the
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II

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American Government that a, coup was imminent 'but rather it 'Vl8S a quid I ; I ,l r ~ . f~
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pro

(lU,Q

proposition in which

if

the .American Government was willing to
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intervene and standdown the Pakistani Arm)' they would get the benefits ,
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mentionedin

the Memorandum.
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Are you saying that the American Government would not.have intervened
,""' ,I.
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simply for tlie love of democracy but only if they were getting something in
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return as mentioned by you?
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or;'

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My opiniOri is that the American Government only do~~ things in self
III
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ill terest or In utual s el f interest .. 1 •. f 'I h lao the 0'1 tr an, as-you state, that M' I~ aqqani~ mrorme:d you l,f:1at,1j .'I I:] the: .h ..1.. -I
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ap:proval air authorization .

of the President ·of Pakistan .'i~l sendinz~ the ,. II

Memorandum -C"U1.you corroborate it with any other sO~lrce?~

Haqqani's words that he 11ad. the ..approval of President of Pakistan because
~.

I

of 11i.S close relationship with the President of Pakistan and with the .late
I'

Benazir Bhutto, the former Prime 'Minister

of' Pakistan, I also formed this
ill -

assessment after going through the, log) data,. (contained-. ,,. , , ~"",. ..... , . , . ,- .0 ,',,'" ,... ',:" . - '" ",

envelope marked
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W4 ... ){j\_AAAAA) earlier referred to by 111e.
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Do, you still consider Mr. Haqqani to convey credible inforrnation?
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No,.
.

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,

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Do

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and our family know Mr. Haq qani's family and 'vice versa?
y'"
I " : . .

A.

Mr., Haqqani has neither met Iny, present nor former wife , ,,. ,

ndl have I met Mr.
I

n
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~

Are you aware that Mr. Haqqani also served as Ambassador when Mr. Nawaz Sharif
Ai,
was

tile 'Prime Minster ofPakistan?
,

I am aware that he served as. Pakistan's Ambassador 'to Srf Lanka but Lam .
not aware whether Mr. Nawaz Sharif was tile Prime Minster of Pakistan at .,

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that time?

IQ
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Have you ever held any other nationality?
1

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No, I have only held American nationality ..
II
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.A..

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What

1110ti vate

d you

to

pursue this matter an-d to.
. .I
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C'0111e and

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give evidence?
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My answer lias two components, what happened before 'the C0111TI1issio'n
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was formed and what happened after the Commission commenced its work. . 'I } ..
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TIle Government ofPakistan
:~,
...

had resorted to a cover up to hide the facts.
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WI1C.n I leamt what .I believe to be the answer or 'WI1Y the cover up took
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.place it 'was my ethos and my being that demanded to record the( truth. Once . ;,. , I
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the C011111!ission commencetl its work re41:ity set in as I ~r;:a~ defamed and
.
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threatened "by the Government of Pakistan with arrest and', tIle threats and

intimidation
"

that adversely affected my banking relationships
r

and my

business "p·ar1n.erships in 'W hi ell I had financial substantial interests,
Q.

In an earlier answer you had said that when you learnt that
I

:Nir. Haqqani was
II

I

quitting as Ambassador it changed your opinion of him, what did you mean
by that?

... A.I'

As mentioned earlier, Mr. Haqqani 'had said that in case America has
I
I

I
+

I
I

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'P'-. k I ha id aim uvir. rl.aqq.Ql110" as their man .I ';.) l' · pro. b! ',elTIS 111 a,' 1stall they shou ld consioer hi ("M~ '(._1' to 'solve problems. What I understood

was that he had

~I,

I

a ~rirst for po~el';
I

which was very different from what should be his role ,~s i\mbassador,
,

including
-,

and

UIJ

to an ambition to rep lace the current President .of Pakistan
I-

II

I!"

I

"lith himself

..

Q..
A.

Would you still categorize NIr~Haqqani as your friend? Prob.(lbly Earlier
110t.
, II I

Q.

y'O'U

had stated th.. the President of Pakistan, Mr. f.\sif Ali Zardari, at
:.0

had authorized the May 2-:) 2011 American raid and such authorization lie
gave to your President, Mr. Barack Obama, Did the American President

ever acknowledge this?
A~ '

i

No,

'Q"'. .-.
.,'.

.;III.~ . : I 'If' Has any other senior American government official acknowledged it?
I, ..

011 the

contrary he denied it.

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"I'd ~I(now,e·,,ge,~ N'ot to myt I
I

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II

I

~Q~ A,~

Has

Y'OUT

opinion of Pakistan ,ArlTIY and ISJ undergone a change?
I

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Institutions are managed by 'people 'who command them!
I I

III l11Y
I~

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I

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meeting
,,

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,

..th "'Jenera 1 J) asna 1 carne aCIQSS as an h 1 ae bl 1 ., tor t;.. h~e wrtr ("1. r :.~0110tITa:'.,·eman searcnmg 4""
I

lip

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truth, T 'n.OW believe that the Pakistan Army and lsi are headed by men 'of integrity and character, It was pressed upon nle by General Pasha that
I'!o,

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I

...

I

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institution and the Pakistan ArlTI)' wanted the Government t - to complete I its " . .•
"I

term at all costs and I believed. 'him,
, I

II

I

.,

·1

'

Q•
,

How would you categorize Admiral Mike Mullen? H e is a man
0f

,A,.

great integri t y,~

Q.

It app~ars

that Admiral

Mike Mullen

had denied
01,?il1io11

I

I',

receiving

any

Memorandum,
"M II [ ,'.·,tL 'etl
j~l

so do 'you still maintain this

of Admiral Mike
II

I

l'\..

Yes," I believe that the .denial 'by the office of Admiral. Mike Mullen was
orchestrated by Mr: Haqqani anti it was
110t

,

issued .with the direct

confirmation of Admiral Mike Mullen,
Q~

Are you saying that the Pakistani Ambassador in Washington of influence?

11~S this

.kind

I
I

Mr. Haqqani has very good contacts in Washington
A Amencan
-c. • •

I: bli t,... , ~. bl h · r~T' '~l establishment an d' IS capao.e 0 f~ orchestrating a renifu"1 f ':r;l11 the
r,

E)C .and in the

I

.. '

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office of Admiral Mike Mullen,
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[The cross examination of the witness concludes] March 18,,...2012
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QA;·~J. AEZ ISA F
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