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You 2.0 - The inTerviews www.lifehackingmovie.com

Contents IntroduCtIon GIna trapanI tIm FerrIss danny o’BrIen ramIt sethI merlIn mann
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Interviews Conducted and Edited by Joey Daoud Copyedited by The Star and Dagger staranddagger@gmail.com
Part of You 2.0 - a Documentary on life hacking www.lifehackingmovie.com Produced by coffee and celluloid Productions www.coffeeandcelluloidproductions.com Presented by Bots high www.botshigh.com when sharing, please use the link: www.lifehackingmovie.com/ebook

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You 2.0 - The inTerviews www.lifehackingmovie.com

IntroduCtIon

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hanks for downloading this book. it’s an edited selection of the transcripts from the interviews i conducted for the documentary You 2.0.

Fall of 2008 I decided to make a short documentary on life hacking for my honors thesis project. I was a film student at Florida State University. Graduating with honors really offers no benefit, but I knew that by signing up it would force me to get the project done. But let’s go back a few years. sometime in the beginning of college i discovered life hacking. i’m always looking for the shortest path and easiest way to do things, and the idea of life hacking is one that really stuck with me. But i’m a weirdo like that. summer before my junior year of high school i decided to skip it and become a senior so i could graduate early. i wanted to get things moving. But like most people, i got sucked into reading all sorts of life hacking and productivity blogs. eventually i realized that i’m just reading about being productive instead of doing productive things. And I know a lot of people find themselves in a similar problem. So that was one question I had that led to the film - what do the authors of some of these sites think about this? I also had a variety of other questions that you’ll see in this book. So that’s a little backstory to what led me to make the film in 2008. I managed to schedule all the interviews in a two week block, so between summer and fall semesters I flew out to California (along with camera girl Jacquelin Richards) and shot all the interviews. Now while I like the short film that You 2.0 ended up as, my original goal was to do a feature. I wanted to follow someone who worked in an office, wanted to make some serious changes in their life, and was willing to be filmed while they tried techniques from the major books (Four Hour Work Week, Getting Things Done, Inbox Zero, etc.). But I was never able to find anyone, plus college scheduling wouldn’t really have worked unless this person was in Tallahassee. Maybe now that I’m finishing up my latest film I’ll try that again. Any takers? Or more importantly, any financiers? I will say it was an amazing trip, and looking back it definitely influenced the decisions I made post-college. I knew I wanted to work on my own film projects, so after graduating, instead of working as an intern at a production company for a few years and then getting burnt out and realizing the only way my career would move was to make my own project, i decided to skip the internship purgatory and just make a film. so for the past 18 months i’ve been working on a documentary following high school kids who build combat robots, called Bots high. It’s in the final stages and will be hitting the festival circuit, art house theaters, and iTunes next year. You’ll see a few ads for it throughout the book, because frankly I really want you to see it. (Check it out at www.botshigh.com) as for life hacking, i still consider myself a life hacker. i just don’t read web sites about it anymore. hope you enjoy the interviews. Joey Daoud December, 2010

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You 2.0 - The inTerviews www.lifehackingmovie.com

www. it’s almost. so i think that life hacks come from them taking that mindset and applying it to anything that they do. to make them a little faster and a little more efficient. and it covers a kind of broad subject area. In January 2009.JD: Can you please introduce yourself? gT: i’m gina Trapani. so the idea of a life hack is you kind of reprogram the way that you perform tasks. and co-hosts the web show This week in google. it has been helped along by my site. things that the average person wouldn’t really do or someone that didn’t have some really advanced programming skills. not just writing computer programs. it’s a sort of clever shortcut. computer programmers have a very systematic way of looking at life.The inTerviews gT: i was a full-time web programmer.com . And over time the definition has expanded to be anything really related or vaguely related to productivity.com. technically savvy person would do—like write their own spam filter or Perl scripts to filter their email or RSS feeds. i will admit. we sat down for an interview on the campus of uc San Diego (what an awesome campus). as well. i think. JD: How did you get involved with life hacking? GIna trapanI when i interviewed gina she was still the editor (and founder) of lifehacker. you’ll probably get a better experience of the interview by reading it here rather than listening to the terrible audio on the video. Gina was the first interview. because it applies a different way of thinking to everything. 4 You 2. she left Lifehacker as the editor to work on other projects. in short. whether that’s on your computer (it’s often on your computer) or just doing your laundry or folding your socks.com. The definition has changed over time. JD: How has it changed over time? gT: well. if you think about it. Logistics were a bit of a nightmare in finding a spot with power and that was quiet. the umbrella has almost gotten too big. or way to get something done. one of the top ten most popular blogs on the internet. the term was coined by a gentleman named Danny o’Brien who did a presentation at a technology conference in 2004. and i am a tech writer and a blogger at lifehacker. To be honest. she currently leads development on open source crowdsourcing platform Thinkup. and his definition of a life hack was a productivity hack that a pretty advanced. the purpose of computer programs is to automate things or tasks.That’s why i think it’s very popular with the tech crowd.lifehackingmovie.0 . so that actual humans don’t have to do them. i was a founding editor there. it is a little bit of extra clever know-how. web developer. and i’m a web programmer. so we were still getting into the swing of things. or systematic way to get something done in your life. JD: What is life hacking? GT: Life hacking is really hard to define.

jeans and stay late and are a lot more casual and are because i just had a lot of interest about the topic. i’ve been described as the martha stewart for geeks. There have been a lot of sites that have helped make it popular. and wear on life hacking. but it’s kind of like martha stewart for geeks. and for me it’s about getting more done in less time so that we can play more. who i GettInG more done.You could say that an email is the same as a paper letter. JD: Do you feel there’s a greater need for life hacking because of the forty-hour workweek? gT: everyone always asks me about whether or not life hacking is about getting more done. and For advanced computer users. but I definitely think that was the first time I had ever heard the term. and i loved this getting lots of important. David allen. It’s still a difficult concept to communicate. JD: What are your thoughts on the image society has of the hard worker being the person working the longest hours? gT: i think in this country we have a sort of mistaken vision that the person who works longer hours is very productive. and my calendar really important and really was a mess. i’m not trying to squeeze ten pounds of potatoes in a five-pound bag.What that that is true. but it’s not.m.The inTerviews My dad had a stack of paper in his inbox and I don’t. I have a gmail account that’s busting out at the seams and it’s different. respect and admire greatly and so i started reading and who i’ve based a lot of me It’s aBout GettInG more about it as much as i could my own work on—i think done In less tIme so that we and hearing more about it that his book really focuses and talking about it with my on executives who wear suits Can play more. like. i think that it’s become a lot more popular in the last few years. e gT: not as popular as i’d like it to be. which is weird but okay.0 . i also disagree veryone always asks with that. worked twelve hours. i think it’s enamored with the idea a generational thing as well. i started doing But i think there’s this some work for a publishing whole other generation of tech company who was interested in starting a site based workers who roll into work at 10:00 a.lifehackingmovie. I’m not so down with that idea. we kind of wear it like a badge of honor. I was kind time must be really busy and of a mess. at the time. it’s so much easier to send an email and to contact someone today than it was for my parents. “i You 2. i suppose. and it has started to make it into magazines and a little bit of video here and there. but they have a whole different is? set of problems. to work and have assistants and deal with a lot of paper. i worked fourteen hours. I just really want to fast-track through the boring stuff so i can go home sooner. it’s volume. than the guy in JD: How popular do you think life hacking the tie and the assistant. and that’s how lifehacker was born. things done. big idea that Danny put forward.working for a dot-com in manhattan in new York. www. i loved about the presentation is that i was one of these people that was buried under email and my brain i think that people think that the person who’s running was hyperactive and i couldn’t stay with one idea long around with the earpiece and the Blackberry all the enough to execute it.” and when Danny o’Brien did his life hacks presentation. friends.com 5 . and maybe even more connected. not lIFe haCkInG Is aBout that there could be these productivity tricks for more i mean. i think that work me aBout whether or i was just completely is really changing. in dealing with more overload problems. just as productive.

like save. JD: Do you already think everyone already has some type of system. and hit the save item. JD: What are your thoughts on the keyboard versus the mouse? gT: i think that the mouse came about because it’s easier to use. and some really succeed. The graphical user interface made computers more accessible to people who didn’t know how to type in the right commands. but don’t realize it’s a system and may not work the best? gT: i think so. you can’t necessarily put a system to that. but i think there’s a point too in the beginning where you’re. People are a lot more comfortable with computers.lifehackingmovie. so how can we share those little tidbits of know-how? How can we share those things so that we don’t have to exert energy rediscovering over and over? JD: How do you fit creativity and spontaneity into a system? gT: one of the great things of gTD and one of the biggest life hacks that has helped is to review all of my lists. but i think that a lot of things that we do every day can be more systematic. which they do. and then i email it amount of time you could hit control and s and just to myself here. i think that a lot of people don’t do that as much as they could. i think that everyone does come up with a system.The inTerviews www.com . But i think that we’re coming full circle. my calendar. and make your thinking-self come up with the instructions. If you do the same thing over and over in a program. and have. that’s why I really like putting out different kinds of systems for doing things. Because most of us are solving the same problems every single day. so people can say. like writing something on their arm. instead of taking your mouse. over and over. like. for sure. thinking is done and I can benefit from this and experience a system that another person has already tried. I think keyboard shortcuts are a lot 6 phone. and then i copy then put your hand back on the keyboard—in the same and paste this into that. so of course i think it’s important. but i think that there are a lot of ways that people can be more efficient in the everyday tasks that they do that they’re not aware of. i think especially technically minded people have this very strong focus on making sense of the world and making things systematic and methodical. whatever works for you. but you can work in a way that you give yourself those spaces and that white space and time to let the good stuff bubble up and let the good ideas come up. “ok. like.” it doesn’t make sense to me. i think if people reinvent the wheel over and over.it totally works for them. putting it on the mouse. putting it on the sort of the most complicated. ornate systems that they file menu. so. and have time to just be. taking your hands off the i have readers write in to the website and describe keyboard. i have quiet thinking time. “what’s the best way to file this? Or put this together? Or organize this?” So. how am I going to do it?” And that’s really what the life hack part is about. i need to accomplish this thing. i think people come up with whatever works for them out of necessity. when you’re talking about creativity and brainstorming. but they take a lot more time to learn.0 . but i’m a computer programmer. and that’s a lot more efficient. i mean.Think it through. click. the expectations get higher. You really can’t put a system or a deadline on your creativity. pull down. and necessity is the mother of invention. Then let your doing-self follow through. i’m an engineer by trade. You 2.“i’ve got this spreadsheet. it’s just kind of contemplating. and that’s not systematic. some little systems fail because you wash your hands and it’s gone forever. but more efficient. and then i have it on my save the file.” JD: How important is it to have a system? gT: i think it’s very important. my to-do lists. “Oh. As we become more efficient. so a lot of programs come with keyboard shortcuts so you can perform tasks within the program by using just the keyboard. So. You can free up your brain to think about some of the bigger problems that haven’t already been solved. and that’s when the good ideas come out. instead of having to think about it every single time.

” send email at 11:00 at night to their boss to show that Living in that constant state is definitely not healthy. like. plenty of time and attention to do that. wheels on stuff that doesn’t matter. who your boss is. because why else would you have the Blackberry? stress can be healthy in the right amount. Productivity for me is all about getting to people more or less productive? that really wonderful feeling of completion. we’re hard-wired to react to stress and we get things done. so i’m going to choose that people are getting more done with those tools. i think that you get things done when you know you have to have it done by a certain date and time. and it honestly if you think about it too much it can definitely was hard. JD: What are some of the problems modern workers face today with technology? GT: One of them is defining what your job is as a knowledge worker. i think that we’re animals. across a couple of time zones. I think that modern workers today face the expectation of always being available. JD: Do you feel that by keeping a to-do list i think that modern workers today face a lot of it creates this endless list? information. so if everybody else has a Blackberry living in this constant state of stress and this constant and is responding to email almost real-time. i can also spend a lot of time surfing the internet for things that aren’t really going to help me.0 . But the time you save adds up. I was chatting with someone in hungary and i was. in the end the time it took you to learn is just an investment and that’s the time you’re going to save back in the end. You 2.” especially with Getting Things Done.“i’m never going to catch up. information was hard to find.What does productivity really mean? I don’t know if a lot of people can say. i can search millions of web pages in a quarter of a second. you ever want to do. Then you have those people that all these to-do’s and they’re never going to happen. which means that i did what i’m supposed to do today. i think that a lot of employees are cc– happy and they get a zillion memos in their email inbox gT: i think that it does. it becomes this thing: “i have information out there.There’s just so much to keeping a to-do list.” I generally show myself three to five.com . when they needed to research.” it’s really hard to quantify how productive knowledge workers can be unless you’re looking at a quarterly in a revenue report. Today we have a scarcity of attention and a lot of information.“i can’t believe i’m doing this. this list and i always have this list. what you really do. But they had feel overwhelming. like saving a file or driving to work across town. and they would go to the library and find books. and we’re less likely to filter. the explicit expectation is that when I get i think that limitations are a good thing. but if we’re and it ups the ante. so it feels like at some point there’s JD: Do you feel technology’s made completion. it’s amazing to me. the idea that you get everything off There’s this kind of information-scarcity feeling back in your mind. JD: Do you feel like a little stress and chaos can be good? gT: i do. i think that deadlines are quite a good thing. they force you to not spin your i’m going to be checking email at night or on the road. when we’re an email i’m going to respond to it very quickly. so i think that technology has definitely made people more productive. or forced to be creative. so you’re writing down every single thing the day of my parents. if it’s a task that you perform over and over again. like. “I can’t deal matter of having the right filters. then you feeling of.lifehackingmovie. so i want 7 to give myself the opportunity to reach that feeling. But it comes with challenge. gT: i’m an optimist. right. when my company issued a Blackberry. so it’s a There are definitely days when I’m. and that can get really long.which is a problem with most shortcuts. with the fifty things on my to-do list. i’m buried under feel like you have to. i think that once you commit that they really didn’t need to see. so. they stayed late and that kind of thing.The inTerviews www. “I built fifty widgets.” i’m in awe the internet makes this possible for me.

thinkupapp.to/etBaZd Twitter @ginatrapani watch the interview at www.org Thinkup www. JD: Do you have any more thoughts about people reading about being productive versus actually being productive? gT: i think this is the problem with productivity media: it kind of promises the fix. for sure. Faster. which is a Getting Things Done concept. The idea that once a week. i think i’ve written over twenty thousand posts. at some point.” however. at this point. that’s the grand irony of writing about productivity.lifehackingmovie.0 .com 8 You 2. i sit down with all my lists and piles and read them over. at times i can spend more time tinkering with my system than actually doing the things on my list. but the dirty little secret is that no system is perfect for every single person. GIna on the weB Official Web Site www.as long as i’m alive i’m going to have things i want to do.to/frumBY lifehacker: 88 Tech Tricks to Turbocharge Your Day (Book) amzn.” JD: What are some life hacks that you do personally? gT: i pretty much try almost everything that i can apply to my own life that i write on the site. reading lifehacker instead of actually doing their work.com upgrade Your life:The lifehacker guide to Working Smarter. i cross off things that i’ve done and add on things that i need to do. And the fact is that even if you find the most perfect system for you. “This is done. and that most days it’s just a matter of getting your thing done versus having the perfect to-do list or the perfect system.They’re sitting at their desks. like Getting Things Done. but at the same time you definitely have to give yourself places where you say.The inTerviews www. and i’m happy for that. Better (Book) amzn.lifehacker.lifehackingmovie. these are the things i’m doing to get there. i cross off things that were a dumb idea to begin and just have this overall sense of where my career and life are going. so. The one that makes the biggest difference for my sanity. and getting to that feeling of completion.com lifehacker www. is the weekly review. which is definitely a big pitfall for a lot of people.com . That’s a great book and i got a lot of great information out of it. the thing that’s going to help you get your act together.ginatrapani. it’s still going to be flawed. at their jobs. four years later. it’s just a marketing thing in some cases. calmness. “This is where i’m heading.

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it’s just a clever solution. an experimentalist. Tim ferriss is my name. so. and I’ll just define hacking. they are less rich. because i think that’s a term that’s used a lot. to me. creating a 10 You 2. TF: How would I define life hacking? Let’s step away from the life. a lateral approach to solving a common problem—that’s all it is. but here she’s been divorced two times and has a lamborghini that puts two thousand miles on per year. it is improving your lifestyle. “This is Tim ferriss. i got an email from Tim’s assistant. Tim was in between traveling but was nice enough to squeeze in a short interview. by my definition. and income has no practical lifestyle value without time. That’s the easiest way to go about it. i suppose you could combine it with lifestyle. so here she is. and much like success or happiness or technology. is simply finding a clever solution to a real problem. I guess. never heard anything before i left. the name part is easy. looking for people who’d read 4hww and wanted to talk about the effect it had on them. however you might define that. so. JD: How would you define life hacking? tIm FerrIss agree or disagree. and I am. if we’re talking about life hacking as opposed to some other type of hacking. whether it’s a work-around. What’s your name and what do you do? Tf: oh. the new rich is only intended to refer to a new class of wealth that depends on abundance of time and mobility just as much as it depends on income. whether that’s on the blog or in the book. i sent an email to Tim’s published email address and got his auto-reply.0 . What that means is if a member of the financial elite makes $1 million a year. than someone who makes $50.” apparently a friend of his had seen my post and forwarded it to him (using his Batcave red phone email I guess). some issues are: there is more information than attention.lifehackingmovie. Two weeks after i got back from california.JD: Let’s start off with basics. a shortcut. and plans mini-retirements and so forth. she said his schedule didn’t allow for an interview. hacking. they’re working weekends and holidays and evenings and so forth. getting an interview with Tim was a little tricky and involved a bit of luck. I tell people I’m a writer. your quality of life.com . for all intents and purposes. understands things like geographical arbitrage. Tim presented some really radical ideas in The 4-Hour Workweek (a title chosen because it scored highest on a google adwords test) that’s had an effect on a lot of people.000 a year. in california i put a post out on the mailing list help a reporter out. or any problem. it tends to be so overused that it loses any precise meaning. when i was scheduling interviews before my trip to california. JD: Do you want to touch on what the New Rich are? Tf: so. by finding clever solutions to in most cases common problems. when you talk about a hacker or hacking. i suppose that’s what i do now. few days later i get a call.The inTerviews www. But i perform experiments and report on those experiments.

there is no end goal besides controlling the most valuable nonrenewable resource. simply being in motion. the “governator. but I think it takes a stab at that toward the end. or the day after that. first of all. like. and this guy came up to me at the end because i said.com . to an end. to not all but most time-management approaches.” goes. they give people tools to get to a point where they face sort of an existential crisis. increased income does not answer the “Just looking at this calendar paralyzes me. work for the sake of work.” they don’t really have calendars. but just as being inactive isn’t the goal. he sold his tenth of them. like. There are definitely different methods to get from where you are to where you want to be. you take the rest. but it does not have to be that regimented. “Dude. when you talk about this end goal. you copy and you company for more than $700 million to Yahoo. should be the goal. i mean. instead of worth. “Yeah. i have a friend.lifestyle that from the outside looking in is more jet set than the first person I mentioned. like. which is increased income. i have a calendar. but they’re actively creating an ideal lifestyle in the present tense. with one hundredth of the financial assets. i don’t think being active. rather than action for the sake of action. “most people have a calendar. and allocating it to what you decide is the most valuable. The goal is not inactivity.” And this guy came up to me and he got your book. they don’t just stop working. as opposed to postponing it for retirement and that deferred life plan based career.The inTerviews www. and then they want to get back in the game. or sent me an email a week later and it’s. That and he’s. i’m not focusing on working less as the objective.0 . who is able to coordinate other commitments if she’s responding to email on my behalf.lifehackingmovie. i don’t think that The 4-Hour Workweek is the existential handbook with all solutions. and the calendar shared with one of my executive assistants. which does not mean there’s no long-term planning— there is—but they’re also sampling and redeeming the benefits of what they’re doing along the way. thirty items in Outlook. JD: Do you have a calendar? Tf: sure. i don’t know what to do with myself. which is time. which I think is really dangerous. and they start looking at other issues and existential questions. if you look at arnold schwarzenegger. if you look at warren Buffett. so. There are certainly personality differences. but i think that it’s beneficial to look at any of these changes as experiments and not even to view them as permanent changes.Why is that? I think that’s an observation worth contemplating. it 11 and i think that’s another achilles’ heel just doesn’t. i the next week. i gave this presentation. either. You finish one it’s very common. which is important for people to consider. and that’s the most important cathartic choice they can make at that time.” i think for most people productivity may be a means and it was ten-minute increments for the entire week. like.Their brains are always racing and coming up with new ideas. there are. and valuable—that’s for each person to decide. once you get to the filling-the-void chapters. “i just wanted to show you my outlook calendar. and then they come back. so intimidating. You know. because it’s bigger existential questions. i work my ass off on stuff that i’m interested in. but it’s not necessarily on a daily basis. the objective is to live aggressively and to design an ideal lifestyle. You 2. i was there for a long time. Not only that. i don’t have my life scheduled out in ten-minute increments. and ultimately it’s about very precise action and leverage to productivity. JD: What would be the end goal of getting down to four hours a week? Tf: That’s a very personal question.” and it doesn’t have to be that way. which i think is very much neglected.They might take a break from it. maybe valuable is that they haven’t taken a vacation in ten years and they suddenly take a month or two to travel. And then they are just left. and he paste them into the next day. if you talk to anyone in silicon valley that sold a company for tens of millions of dollars. i have a calendar primarily for travel.” he’s. this doesn’t work at all. It just doesn’t.

so. let’s fill pages in between with just say 10:00 a. credibility indicator 1.. That’s it. here’s why. at which you check and have to try to maintain a certain respond to email. you’re going to forget everything you read and you’ll have to so. so i always try to identify. Then i’ll also offer people the option not to 12 information do they ever act on? I would respond to it. 3. stuff like that. i’m. re-read it again anyway. how many magazines. the less clear i’m also practicing. is just as important as having a to-do list. this is me. it’s a very simple concept. how many websites do people read just I’ll try to get to it in four or five lines and make it very.m.lifehackingmovie. to keep informed? And how much of that very clear. like kathy sierra would say. then you go out and find it. so it’s not delivered the day in reactive work mode. some guys will set rules for themselves.say. whICh repetitive task..m. i mean. JD: Is there a change in the way we And to that extent I think creating a not-to-do list communicate and get our message across. advertisements. i think that the more you waste space. and media does not BesIdes ControllInG a set-up time involved with include information that washing clothing. it’s because they have to setting specific times. in this particular case. example of an approach that would be in that portfolio like emails no longer than five lines. if there’s a pre-defined critical task or game-changing goal objective that you have. from completing any of your pre-defined to-do’s. Most people spend all day in the inbox. let’s say you use batching.com .0 .m. because there’s media. like.You wait overestimate the value of here’s no end Goal first for a certain mass to content that’s produced by accumulate. as opposed to doing it throughout ratio of content to advertisements. because emails are a very effective way to simulate forward motion without actually accomplishing anything. 2.The inTerviews www. rather than just-incase information. less than 5 percent? Less than 1 percent? JD: Can you explain the low-information diet? Tf: The low-information diet quite simply is a set of principles and approaches for reducing consumption of information so that you can focus on output. which prevents you based on relevance or importance. just-in. that requires certain information. which are generally the most uncomfortable things. and alloCatInG It that’s doing paperwork every have a set number of pages? monday instead of when the it’s amazing how they have to what you deCIde Is most mail comes in. how many books. of low-information-diet approaches. someone doesn’t know who i am. and they 4:00 p. rather than keeping up to date. don’t read it. Then you is necessarily relevant or the most valuaBle nonperform that task. t You 2. if time information instead of just-in-case information. and the actionable. same can be said of any renewaBle resourCe. Don’t waste the time.your messaging tends to be. and what i want. whether why does a newspaper Is tIme. or. You wouldn’t do a new load of laundry every time you have and i think that people a pair of dirty socks. which tends to get me more responses. it’s ridiculous. identifying with everyone getting so much input and those crutch activities like email that are used to email? How do we reach busy people? postpone the important stuff. and batching would be one Tf:Yeah. let’s just say because you have a project that might come up six months from now for which it would be useful. valuaBle. 2:00 p. But if you read a book now.. the same number of pages every month.

you cannot. it gets too hard to track.com 13 You 2.” You can’t please everyone.lifehackingmovie.fourhourworkweek. “look. no single path.if it’s someone who i’m trying to reach and i know that they get as many emails as i do. pick up the phone.timferriss. be nice whenever possible.” if i’m having a debate or discussion or trying to address a problem with someone that can’t be fixed in two emails. Bob hope.lifehackingmovie.There’s no path.to/gZUoY3 Twitter @tferriss watch the interview at www. very few things matter. That’s it. too convoluted. so be tactful. tIm on the weB Official Site www.com . on life hacking. and if you try you will fail in whatever you want to do for yourself. very few things and very few people. and you’ll create negative tension. but don’t try to please everyone. because you can’t. don’t have fifteen emails back and forth.The inTerviews www. that would be great. to personal productivity. then i’ll say.com/blog The 4-Hour Workweek (Book) amzn. that’s my closing comment. People misinterpret things. JD: Do you have anything else to add about life hacking? Tf: let’s see. I don’t expect you to respond. very few things make any measurable impact on the game-changing plans or objectives or dreams that you might have. but if you can find it in the professorial side of yourself to shoot me a quick note or call me on my cell phone. but the one sure path to failure is to try to please everyone.0 . a number of world leaders. But the most valuable quote that i’ve committed to memory is one i’ve heard repeated by many people: Bill cosby. be diplomatic.to/g7rb0J The 4-Hour Body (Book) amzn. and what they said was. There’s no single path to success.com Blog www. “i don’t know what the one path to success is. i know you probably get a million a day.

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when i told him i hadn’t heard from him. so i started saying. he asked if i had spoken to Danny. and geeks are very good at coming up with these little solutions. right? You 2. i would sort of wake up at nine. i kind of picked that career so i wouldn’t have to get up particularly early. he’s not even well known. not machinery. he had a lot of great insight into the popularity of what life hacking has become. spoke to Danny and next thing you know we had an interview setup. not technology. he pulled out his phone. along with a sobering viewpoint of the major blogs. 15 . i’d hit the snooze unconsciously until it would get to.” You don’t want to admit that you have even had to tackle this. “if you’ve got something that you really don’t want to do. I had emailed him but never got a reply (I suspect he’s burried in email overload). like. “look.lifehackingmovie. They don’t think it applies to anyone else. little microimprovements. i guess that there’s a bunch of stuff like this. The questionnaires were very simple. these tiny. the way i cope with completely failing to get up every morning is—. and also people don’t believe it will apply to anyone else. half past nine. snooze. interviewing Danny was another happy chance of luck. “well. People do these little things because they’ve come up with them. which is a very subset in the geek community. because it’s very personal and it sort of reveals your failings. But I really wanted to fix this. but how do you hack your life to make things work the way you want it to?” i realized that people are actually kind of reluctant to talk about this stuff.he coined the phrase life hacks. a contender for Word of the Year in 2005 (it lost out to podcast). and this was kind of ok. because i’m a freelance journalist. how do you make yourself do it?” and i think that’s kind of a good view of how this whole thing works. or they think everybody else knows. The problems of being organized are things that geeks face all the time. midday. hit the snooze. they think it’s just a thing that they’ll do to get through the day. my favorite was something like. You sort of say. i really enjoyed talking with Danny. After I interviewed Merlin mann. however it all started with Danny . what i did was i sent out this questionnaire to about seventy of the geeks who were kind of sickeningly over-productive.which is partly why he was so interested in finding out what makes productive people tick. it’s the way their minds work.0 .com danny o’BrIen in the world of popular life hacking books and sites. people who i knew just churned out all kinds of work and were blogging and doing huge programs. technology journalist Danny o’Brien is not a major player. right? so. what are your favorite ways of hacking not computers. JD: Can you tell the story of how you came up with life hacks? Do: it all began when i was having huge problems getting up in the morning.The inTerviews www. and also had a life at the same time. that’s the other thing. it’s ironic that the man who coined a phrase on productivity is admitedly one of the most disorganized people ever.Do: i was the person who coined the phrase life hacks for all my sins.

some people were very hard on themselves. and stuff all of their organizing into that. The most successful system for me is actually Ben Franklin’s autobiography. so i went into it expecting people who’d written programs to sort of master all of this. But there weren’t any ways to handle that kind of flood of information and the flood of emails coming in. Ultimately. word crashes. that’s what now. so they were the people who suffered from information overload. it’s very much like gTD. i could be like a great founding pull out that text and they would still be able to use it. geeks kind of have had an advantage.which to me. “how does anyone ever do anything? Because I’m still in bed at 11:00. they just very naturally do it.com . father. like the text editor or notepad.” But most of them were sort of pioneers in the same way.lifehackingmovie. in that because as everybody else is beginning to suffer from that in about 2003. “well. It was less of a novelty and more a thing that you use on an everyday basis. How do you people even think about doing this?” they don’t scare themselves in trying to come up with these things. i never realized that. But really. in that the alpha geeks. JD: What do you think about the huge 16 They don’t read those organizing books. “i just grind my teeth and do it. The other thing was that they knew that when they move to another computer or another operating system or. right? So I sort of expected that that’s what they would do. the myself. notepad doesn’t crash. what i found is that actually a lot of people got their efficiency doing the opposite. organized. they were. popularity of all these sites and how they’re You 2. and really the gTD thing i think was the one where there’s somebody out there saying it to everyone else.The inTerviews www. and they can write their own programs. some people said they would do the thing that they didn’t really want to do before they had really woken up in the morning.” and it was very inspiring in a completely cheesy. right? You need some reason. the first of the first. right? That was kind of a thing when i walk down this path. and getting too much information coming in.“Yeah. you too can be Ben franklin. i think part of the same movement that made the whole life-hacking thing popular is that people were These people wrote me very organized. At the cutting edge a few of them were sort of saying. I’m one of these people who would spend six hours writing a computer program or something that will save you two minutes over six months. very long. Bill gates goes bust or whatever. they can You sit there going.0 . my organizing pattern lasts about a week reason why i couldn’t get up in the morning is that i and a half before i start looking for another don’t really have a reason to get up in the morning. which is one of the first sort of self-help tracts that you can read. and it’s kind of like. other people had very complicated kinds of reward systems in place. which was to take some really simple program on your computer. you know. The other category of things i really wanted to get out of people was their relationship with technology and computers. Getting Things Done. organizing pattern. geeks have been suffering from email overload since 1996. it seemed to have helped. “if you just do these seven simple things. it’s going. because when i organize you need. kind of American-flag. and detailed replies. rather than just people sitting there by themselves. coming up with their own system. the cutting edge. right? This is a common theme in a lot of areas. They are the masters of this particular thing. kind of way. they were all developing their own systems. which was kind of interesting.” It meant that it would never crash.” some people would try to say that they would distract themselves. like. at that time a lot of the power of the internet was just beginning to really filter into people’s lives. because it meant that they didn’t have to learn some really strange and complicated Getting Things Done–type technology system. 2004. are really just people experimenting on themselves before they roll out their terrifying programs to the rest of the world. i’ve read this book. just beginning to reach the limits of being able to stay complicated. right? Because it’s notepad.

absolutely. well actually i’m kind of obsessiveyou you had to do a hundred compulsive.” or. real question you have to ask is.“oh. nine-to-five job. it’s not a problem to think self-improvement. i can’t really do it anymore. no. Do: i think it’s the human condition to be better. man.” and part of thing that drives this. I am. “well. if you know how it.” They all ask the question you should ask yourself if you find yourself in that situation: “OK. i things?” have some genetic sleeping problem. but why am i thinking about it so much? What is it that is making me constantly trying to equally improve these things?” life hacks isn’t the answer to that question.” or. you know. now. and i’m i think. then you begin to think of yourself as to find a solution to people’s problems? the block here. to know. just making myself unhappy by doing it. as well. i live in a messy kitchen. should be that. i have a hundred things to do this week. like. you know? I’m just writing about them. how do i organize myself so i could do twenty things every day?” “Don’t be like me.” or. The idea that we can reprogram and redesign these things to be a wonder.The inTerviews www. and become useful. i think we’re kind of fascinated so you end up going. I’ve done all these small improvements. You can’t just drop in a new operating system or reprogram yourself. “why do you think it’s right? But I think the first step is trying to understand a good idea for you to do a hundred things? Who told why you just go. right? But you have to know where you’re going. i really want to be a super.how productive we are. And then if I Better Is the thInG that super. why? Why are people so interested in these things? It’s not because we magically become incompetent managing our lives.transform ourselves or make ourselves better is the person because i can see the potential. but the i’m not saying that being that kind of person is bad. “look.” i’m going to do twenty. “oh. our sort of idea of self-worth.just trying out hacks? Do: i think the thing that i came away with and the thing that I think raises a question is.” JD: Why do you think people want to do You shouldn’t necessarily think that you can upgrade better and be more productive? yourself in the same way as technology.” they’re all. “well aDD. i think for a lot of people the problem they come to is they say. “i can barely get myself together to write all these blog entries.0 . “oh. and you’re in the business of making JD: Do you think part of the draw of the this technology more and more powerful and more life-hacking websites is that they’re trying and more useful. and that’s where life hacks powerful computers are. i’m going to have to do think geeks fall prey to that some amazing tweaks to do drIves thIs. part of doing these things. i’m just it’s very easy to spiral off not going to be the kind of ourselves or make ourselves into this world where you person who could have a think you have to be super.com . i should be able to by self-improvement in itself. comes from goes. 17 organized person like X. i think that we live in a particular time where a lot of The people who everyone looks up to and our value. “i’m totally thInk we’re kInd oF why don’t you just say. and FasCInated By selF i’m not going to do any more and understanding your because i can’t and i’ll go character means that you Improvement In ItselF. the nuts”? can kind of understand what Idea that we Can transForm you can and can’t do.lifehackingmovie. “well. if you know how powerful technology can be. I You 2. super-efficient. right? Do: Yeah.

it is very personal how you end up calming down. one of the nice things about it is that you can follow people that you really admire or like. You can calm down by going to a doctor and getting a prescription for something.one of the things that i found kind of interesting about geeks and the idea of self-improvement is there used to be a time when there were just your friends.” i need to know how you actually or something that you were interested in.” i think that introduces a sense of realism about what is actually achievable. that’s why i’m they face it all the time and they have a really running around in circles. right? Take Twitter. everybody has different elements of that.You have to look outside. or we know somebody who can balance a huge number of coins on their nose. “Oh. But it could be true that the rest of their life is a mess.” element to it. like reading do that. it’s just the world’s most obvious procrastinator. and empty your mind. or you need someone to tell me. and then you went fishing. and to place that burden on the system that you choose is to overburden. again. JD: One part of the GTD system is to keep your mind empty so you can focus on other things.lifehackingmovie. those kinds of life hacks that i like are when things you’re doing.The inTerviews www. JD: What do you think about reading about productivity on all of these blogs. The sad thing is that there is no that people who excel aren’t really very different from hack which i know that determines which one of those us. You can calm down by moving to a new city. celebrities being actors and singers or whatever. “Well. “oh my area of human interest kind of has its own celebrity God.” “i just completely burned the rice. i think that kind of beats you down a bit. The reason why these systems weren’t working is The way the internet has transformed that is now every because i was nervous all the time.You can calm down by not calling your mom every two days or whatever. about cats or something. a number of people i’ve thought of as really superorganized are busy on Twitter going. all of this stuff. or you just had some little hobby. writing a blog on how to do your self-improvement is. But what’s self-knowledge and what’s self-obsession. it’s totally a form of procrastination. we know the person who knows the most about cats. this person clearly has the same down. right? Because all I’m saying is. reading it is even more so. which system should I do? I got a hundred things to do. i mean. “ok. just relax and be calm wrote some poetry.You see somebody who is absolutely brilliant at the one thing you want to be brilliant at. You 2.” cheap trick to get around it. but it’s much easier to get more involved in the process than it is in actually doing the thing. “oh. it’s like the internet is this Guinness Book of Records of all human accomplishment. in. and i thought they were marvelous way of shocking yourself out of the system that you’re and they never ever face this problem.” or. Where do you think the balance is in that system? Do: i don’t know about anyone else. no.0 . because ultimately you have to work out some problem as i do. versus being productive? Do: i think that’s part of the problem that you have when you’re at that moment of trying to reform or change yourself. but i don’t really You went to your job. right? One of those things leads to change and the other one actually leads you to be even more frozen in i think it would be really healthy if the internet taught us the state that you are. and go. and they have good advice on how to be brilliant about that particular thing. because he has a cat wikipedia page. i was going. because you’re interested in the details of their life.” 18 It’s a useless hack. so. That’s where the hacks idea falls you suddenly go. and then there were celebrities. in fact.com . “oh. That’s why i’m doing it. “i missed my plane again. i got up too late. There’s something about that particular medium that makes people far more confessional about them screwing up.

all the time. JD: Do you think there’s an overload of information? Do: Yeah. how can you improve yourself without becoming disgustingly self-obsessed?” Right? Because. JD: What are your thoughts on all the selfhelp books and gurus out there right now? “ah. which is another world entirely. sort of go.0 . somebody will want to buy this domain name. a label to something that’s been there forever? Do: People say that. what’s new about this?” I mean. I think the reason why it has spread further than that is because we’re all getting increasingly geeky. do these people have any friends? They just like talking 19 JD: Do you think you just supplied about themselves constantly. you know. it’s one of the things you learn if you’re sort of someone you know.” i was kind of surprised when they went on to mention one of the new words in the dictionary [life hack was up for word of the year]. hard work. But it does require us Do: kind of. self-help books have been aimed either at businessmen or housewives.when i remember reserving to think about informational hygiene as much as the the domain name. and i’ll be kind of a follow through in any way. up until that point. we get that cheaper. “well. i’m in the dictionary. i don’t think that we lIve In a very Geeky it’s the worst thing that’s happened to the human race. which is so i don’t want to draw any connections with anybody. and now i am not a millionaire because of it. i just sat and watched everybody else do stuff. so. a friend of mine chose mind hacks. you should. They all went.it’s just simple. people kind of feel. i came up with dick. so i don’t think it’s with where the word going to bring civilization to has gone? an end.” JD: How did you come up with the name of life hacking? Do: well. and kind of cackling to myself. But yeah. lifehacker. i thought. totally.That sort of bundle of meanings had already been scooped up by a publishing company called o’reilly. the term. “i made it now. without insulting them. “This nineteenth century thought about actual hygiene.” Do: i think the real danger is that if there’s any question that you should ask self-organization gurus in general. which is a really interesting kind of investigation into the limits of how your brain works. and you just go. all the hacks had been Word hacks or Excel hacks or Linux hacks. we live in a very geeky culture now. i chose life hacks. you know.The inTerviews www. you know. like.com I thInk the reason why It’s spread Further than . i think that means that things tend to transpire from what geeks are doing to the rest of the world. I was one of these people who went. i don’t think that destroys us.” no one bought the domain name. And we’re very flexible kind JD: Are you surprised of animals.lifehackingmovie. these quick fixes. But i would stop to come up with these little spiffy things than it is to paying attention to anyone else. but they’re also kind of clever as well. Culture now. i bet. “how can you be.com. and this was the first time that people tried to do self-help for geeks. “How far can we take this?” so. sometimes you watch these shows with these self-improvement people. my wife actually ended up doing a whole bunch of investigation into body hacks. we live in a world where most of us feel that was BeCause we’re all overloaded with information GettInG InCreasInGly Geeky. everybody wants to kind but. but not really. i can totally lose pounds and be really strong that blogs a lot on the internet. you have these quick solutions. it’s actually much easier and be laser-focused on my ambition. will work.” You 2. which is run by Tim o’reilly. You just rise like a Zen Buddha master above your own life. “how of improve themselves like this. the main difference was that up until now.

best thing you could do is to be like Prometheus.” right? if you really came down to it.JD: You said that you’ve tried a bunch of systems? Do: god. Because if we really did what we wanted to do. which is sort of like what life hacking is. that’s far more the human condition than. JD: Do you think you can change? to another geek. i’m such an alcoholic of systems. i have tried them all and nothing works. i still kind of believe that really the life hacking. i mean. most of us don’t actually know what we want to do.The inTerviews www. and you can hang around really organized people.” right? People are remarkably skeptical about that as a life plan.lifehackingmovie. just steal their stuff.” they will remember it because it’s sufficiently trivial that it will be stored away in their heads. we would go.lifehackingmovie.com/danny watch the interview at www. if you have problems forgetting really important things in your life.com 20 You 2. perhaps actually steal their stuff. if you tell one of your geeky friends. i’m having lunch with So-and-so at 3:00 next Tuesday. so. right? I mean. absolutely. we’d hate ourselves. but they can remember what happens in other people’s lives. you can steal their ideas.com . right? so. the absent father of people can change. alcoholic father. right? But really it’s to give ourselves a sense of self-worth. That’s what productivity is. tell them danny on the weB Official Site www. what we want to do is something which is partly what we want to do and what we think everybody else wants us to do. you know. JD: Would you consider yourself the father of life hacking? Do: i am more skeptical than i was about how much Do: The errant. JD: What are some of the craziest hacks that you’ve come across? Do: somebody said. I just need a better filing system to do it.spesh. when they’re not looking. JD: Do you think it’s just that some people are born disorganized and some people are born organized? Do: absolutely. because geeks love irrelevant trivia. so we end up forcing ourselves into these productivity ruts.0 .“i think what i mainly want to do is watch Tv and eat ice cream. which is to sit and watch “The simpsons. “oh. and so i think that’s my favorite life hack: you use the obsessive nature of every geek that you know as an off-site backup.” eating ice cream. “I know exactly what I want to do. right? They can’t remember anything about their own lives. if you can’t be these people. that is definitely how I call myself.

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since then he’s done an amazing job spreading his brand of personal finance advice (I’d rather listen to him than Suze Orman any day). what are we doing with all that? ramIt sethI i feel like ramit is part super-human. in a mad dash. JD: About your blog. it’s actually focused on being rich.0 .” Then they read a couple of posts and realize that. and a proof copy of the cover of his soon to be released book of the same name (which is now a NY Times Best Seller). sans-coffee. that’s a good question. You’ve got to focus on making meaning. and other publications. absolutely.” JD: How would you define life hacking? rs: life hacking is a way to optimize your life so that you can work towards something meaningful. and i think a lot of the time people will look at it and say. for whatever reason. such as responding to your emails faster. having appeared on aBc news and cnBc. when i interviewed him he had the popular finance blog i will Teach You To Be rich. so enjoy this interview that was conducted at 7 am. you know—. JD: Tim Ferriss talks about this. ramit gets up super early to get a jump start on the day. Those are the things that being rich are about. not just making money. early morning was the only time he had free for an interview. it’s different than wealth. i don’t think it’s just about optimizing the day-to-day.com . but do you think our culture has a really big focus on accumulating money rather than focusing on more meaningful things? rs: Yeah. and i also run a blog called “i will Teach You to Be rich. along with writing for the NY Times. it’s not just about keeping up with other people and making money for the sake of making money. co-founder of PBwiki. this is actually about using money to further your strategic goals. but it’s actually about personal finance. The site “i will Teach You to Be rich” sounds like a big fat scam. “it sounds scammy. and i’m a co-founder of PBwiki. hey. There’s so much discussion about the tactics of “how do you optimize this.Wall Street Journal. and using money so that you can achieve your goals. it’s not just about having money for the sake of money. our alarms failed to work. and rich is.JD: What’s your name and what do you do? rs: my name is ramit sethi. coincidentally. how do you get fees waved off your credit card?” Why? What’s the point. 22 You 2. i like to look at it as a way so that i can optimize my life to focus on meaningful things. we managed to make it across san francisco to ramit’s apartment not too embarassingly late.lifehackingmovie. why do you think there’s such a focus on wealth? rs: well. how do you do a balance transfer. entrepreneurship.The inTerviews www.

you don’t. But there are things that we care about. get thirty emails a day and they’re. To give an example.i have friends who make $150.” and then i have friends who get eight.” i’m. set some boundaries. you’re going to get notices by Twitter. so i’d rather deny that. i have friends in their twenties. it’s hard to think ahead about what you want just makInG money. I wrote a post recently called “The $28. ok.” so i think that when it comes to life hacking. we have challenges with organizational dynamics. or even $200. Are you alive? How do you get only ten emails a day? But it’s so funny.we’re. We shrug at the end of the month. or fifty emails a day.” it’s. There was a study by sun microsystems in the nineties. “i just want to have a simple wedding. but i also think that a lot of it is not new. what they found was that people were overwhelmed by email. and we talk ou’ve Got to FoCus on about money stuff. and You 2. i can’t outrun it.000 a year in their investments banks.” JD: What problems do you see modern workers facing today? figure out a way to manage it. to do. i mean. no. want to be able to buy an iPhone. life hacking can really help with money if you’re strategic about your goals.lifehackingmovie. and they’ve never worked. not just making money often we focus on the tactics: “how many emails did I respond to yesterday?” “How much money did I accumulate?” But what’s the purpose? Money is not an end goal. like. it’s your special so. and what was interesting was that they would find that people would say this whether they got ten emails a day. they’re working in a non-profit. “oh god. like. now. now. at a really high level it’s just paper. You want to have the best china. rs: i think life hacking is a great way. Because i would rather get two or three things done. not again. the best food. there’s so many.000 a year.What is rich? You’ve got to focus on making meaning. so. nine hundred. maybe travel. i guess i spent that much on my bills. right? We want to be able to go out with our friends. and most importantly focus on the things that i want to accomplish. over a thousand emails a day. email. just keep it really simple. you use it for something. not money. so what is it actually used for? And that’s what we’re trying to explore on “i will Teach You to Be rich. a great frame. “Don’t drink lattes. like. managing those channels is pretty difficult as well. Before. you probably used to get phone calls and maybe a memo. and the question is.Then i have friends who make $20. i think what’s happened now is. so. but we’ve always had more information than before. think about anyone you know who’s talked about getting married. “i have so much email. which back then was a lot of email. So. i mean. I’m. So. let’s not there’s too much information.000 a year. And that income that they make doesn’t determine whether they are rich or not. every single person will say. we’ve got more information than before. like. That’s because you’re kind of caught up in the dayto-day. to look at money management.000 Question: why are we All Hypocrites about Our Weddings?” Now. facebook. and that is a natural thing. how do you use money to get toward those goals? Also. at least day. than respond to four or five hundred emails. “i know i’m spending too much.com . JD: How do you feel life hacking relates to money and money management? RS: Do we have twenty-five hours to talk about them? i mean. We have new channels of information. im. because I have this same exact experience: my friends. and they’re overwhelmed too.” it’s so common. what’s usually the way that we manage our money? We don’t.The inTerviews www. “aw. best flowers. if you get ten emails a day. i just want to have a few close friends and family. “how do i relate to my coworker?” We’ve had that before. the from my understanding.” Those things have been going on for fifty years. 23 i know what happens in weddings. like. how do you not feel guilty about money? so many of us feel guilty. some of them. let’s be realistic and acknowledge that. it’s hard to be strategic about your makInG meanInG.0 . y when i look at these newspaper columns that tell us.

going to be at least average. i’m pick the one or two areas that i can and really optimize actually now wanting to have an assistant here in san those. because you’d be watching it less. Your time would you do? be freed up. which takes advantage of my laziness. transfer to this.” But it turns out that 70 percent of people in saves $300 a month for their wedding?” Nobody. So if I can have someone in want to tip. It’s who will add an extra twenty bucks to their tip. one or two. savings account. you’d probably watch less Tv. You could theoretically and fifty emails a day. transfer to that. I’m going to have then $500.” when my money comes in. that one problem area at a time. if i’m contributing $100 a month to my to $550.” Then i’ll keep it there for a couple months. six months from now. “All right. to the gym à la carte instead of using their subscription.0 . for one. Because six months The first month.You RS: Well every fifteen days. they get it done right. once a week. even if you’re another thing i do is. it’s geared towards a few really important goals.say.” You think to yourself. about the fifteenth of can do this with music. then you need to be saving $300 a month at twenty. i paying two or three times. and then it goes up and up to go to the gym. it’s about how you go to a restaurant.” This is where i actually encourage people to so.The inTerviews www. and the money you’d save would probably actually be higher. cancel your cable and just buy the episodes on iTunes. so i just eat out too much. “All right. what i’ll say is. and then i have $200 extra per month to invest. francisco. when i talk about life hacking. yeah. At a gym. probably more. which is. pay off this.” Because i’m lazy. it’s save all the receipts that i spent on credit cards. and the actual amount that’s on my credit card. sure that i’m on track. You can do this with all kinds the month. so i just have it all done automatically. not just being invisible. because you’d be JD: What are some specific life hacks that more conscious about the spending. i basically look at my spending and make of things. or five times faster. married at twenty-six or twenty-seven. because the value to me is much more by having someone here that i can talk to. tweak your that’s eating out. Then I go on to the next problem area. I’m going to take it from now. . like. focus on the one or two big problem areas. that’s JD: Have you tried to use assistants? where you get the money. 24 sometimes you get bartenders or waiters You 2. when it comes to money i just The larger issue is being conscious about your money. after using virtual assistants a lot. so what do I need to do in order to achieve that goal?” other life hacks i use . let’s say that i spend $600 a month on eating out. that’s more important to me. . But that’s where life hacking can fit in. “OK. i ran a little chart on my blog and i said. when i think about it. i know i’m not going to sit there on the first or second of the month and say.That’s great. optimizing your life so that you can achieve it is because we dramatically overestimate how often these important goals. “what twenty-year-old ridiculous. i can’t do it all at once. so i just try to rs: i have.lifehackingmovie. then $450. “That’s and up. I’ll say. system so that it takes advantage of you not caring. i’ll basically check in and make here and i’m paying them a little more money but they sure that the amount i wrote on the tip is get it done three times faster. “ok. rather than just answering a hundred same thing is true with Tv. i use one called the “à la carte solution. you write in the amount you efficient you are with that. for me. my wedding is going to be expensive. $400 a month at I’ll give an example. we go to the gym. as Tim said in his book. most people would be. on sunday nights. it’s ten bucks each time twenty-one or twenty-two. “all right. rather than trying to optimize everything in my life.com . right? this recent study would’ve saved more money by going It’s ridiculous. if cancel subscriptions and force them to buy something you’re twenty years old and the average man gets à la carte. i’m horrible at cooking. and if it is invisible. i want to get that down to $400 in the next six months. and what i try to do is focus on $600 without doing anything. when not about what you’re paying per hour.

but rather produce. i will literally off each other. i will from there. The whatever per week. can magical answer. it’s easy to get caught up in reading blogs. are their own beast.” i’ll try putting it in my calendar. which is guilt-free spending so i need to go see a dentist: “find me the best dentist money that i can enjoy and that i don’t have to worry around here.lifehackingmovie. i night before. so automatically. so JD: Do you think people are just trying to money comes in on day one. the first of find that one magical solution to fix all their the month. so that saturdays Completely oFF them more strategic work.0 . i keep it fresh in a different makes you more produCtIve way to manage it. great idea. so i constantly want to create a website that experiment.” Those are the get tired of it. some weeks i will strategically finance blogs. and send me a list of the final ones. so rent. and automatically part of it is problems? 25 sent to a 401(k). like. and you get all these other people who say. i take advantage requires you to be productive. that kind of stuff. i think it’s not that i’m that muCh.” JD: How do you manage your tasks? so. to step away put that on my calendar: one hour or five hours or and not just be a consumer. so some weeks you please scan this and put this into a PowerPoint. does X.The inTerviews www. i wish i had some simple things would be. The rest is taken down t You 2. info porn. and they get their money. well organized? Are there JD: What are your any systems you use? thoughts on the Guess what. what i try to do is. pick the best three. it’s that if i do I had thIs revolutIonary i will review and we’ll go something for a while. even personal also. and then i try to think a little rs: The productivity blogs bit ahead. some other rs: Different ways all the time. i’d use one of my assistants for that. rs: i try to automate a lot of productivity blogs? my life as much as possible. some of it is designing a website for me. But it’s important. “oh.JD: What kind of tasks do you delegate or do you want to delegate? to my checking account. Then I have fixed expenses that are paid rs:all kinds. about. cross-link them on Yelp. i’m going to spend 20 percent of my time are totally into the same things as you. i think a so. JD: How do you stay the rest oF the week.. Then somewhat technical things. i’ll try other things are more high sending an email to myself the level: “here are my goals. but it always changes.com . other weeks. until you have a goal. i’ve got spending money. and Z. so i just have to value and you give constantly roll it over. great. It’s Called a popularity of all the weekend. i think.I thouGht can you give me a couple experimenting to find the of prospective designs? And answer. Y. one of the things in The 4-Hour Workweek that was lot of people read them and you can get sucked into really great was to never sit down at your computer productivity porn. it will stop FIndInG that takInG assistants that you really being effective. “all right. i set it up to be totally automated as much as possible.. Can you hInGs don’t ChanGe scope out the requirements. of myself and i know that i’m lazy. i’m on the newspaper.” so i put that on my calendar. best way to employ the productivity tools that we see online is to actually be working on something that To stay organized with my money. rather than diving in. find their reviews. they need to be in this health plan. utilities. and you feed on analytics. some of it is doing research. where my savings account and my investment account dip into it.

well. that you can move faster.” And they were. for example. and i was telling them you really can burn out doing that for a long period of time.lifehackingmovie.lifehackingmovie. and it doesn’t exist. That’s why i think it’s unsatisfying for me to tell you the way i work.com I Will Teach You To Be Rich (Book) amzn. and they can go and basically add their thoughts and flesh out my ideas.” But it’s not that simple for me. I’ve been trying to finish this book. guys. I find that to be really useful. But i know that later when i go to write a blog post.” You know. i don’t want to do this. How do you use wikis in your life? rs: i use a PBwiki for my own stuff. and that there are tools that can help you. but you need to know where it is. guess what. So I will set up a page that’s based on a project. we all want that one simple solution.The inTerviews . But it’s fundamentally true. i didn’t do any work at all. “Yeah. we want that one solution to help us get rich. it’s called a weekend. i’m. and i bet your parents have a very simple solution that they used thirty years ago that we will ignore. and then i try another. i didn’t feel guilty. that you could say. you could just go talk to your mom and dad and tell them your work style. on my own PBwiki i have set up different pages and different folders for different things. and man. and then i try another. so i’m waking up at 6:00 a. You don’t necessarily need to know the information. it’s been in the last throes of editing. I go to the wiki and i invite them. dude. I Will Teach You to Be Rich. and i’ll just put it in there. to answer more emails. and it’s got all of my notes that i’ve been collecting for the last two months. They can’t serve people who are looking for that one silver bullet. right? meanwhile. “Oh yeah. it’s called a weekend. i’ll randomly have an idea. i was having dinner with my friends the other night. because the next day I was so productive. i work all day. so.” But if i know it’s one click away. i’m. there’s a lot of that. i have this new thought about a way of optimizing your money flow. PBwiki is basically a collaborative website where you can share information and files. i sat on my bed. They show you that you can be more productive. and i know exactly where that is. and it’s really loose. Things don’t change that much.to/hmawmp Twitter @ramit 26 watch the interview at www. “hey. It flows very easily and is better than having to search for stuff.com You 2. i thought I had this revolutionary finding. random thoughts. as usual. you can get people to collaborate as well.” Here are five people that I trust.and usually i don’t drink caffeine. so. i watched some movies. I can pull up that page.iwillteachyoutoberich. but i’m having a red Bull and a coke and all of this stuff. i talked about how it is psychologically comforting to know that you know where information is. i try one thing. sometimes i have an idea. and so i said. and i’m staying up late. like. So that works really well. this is the next best thing. for the last four weeks or so.com www. I think the productivity blogs provide a huge benefit to people. when i talked about gTD. and so the fact is. “oh man. i just enjoyed myself.” and i was. ramIt on the weB I Will Teach You To Be Rich (Blog) www. I find that a huge barrier: if I have to even get up from this room and go over there to the closet and get something.rs: Yeah. at the same time. and the cool thing is i can do it from work or home or wherever. JD: So you work at PBwiki. Plus.0 . i’ll tell you something. because i wish i had some secret solution in a book that i had written. “You know.m. i think so much of this stuff we talk about and we write a fancy blog post about. “This is so revolutionary. and that’s very unsatisfying to people. like. like. we want that one solution to help us be more productive. You know. i add bullet points and just write stuff. because our parents told us. there can definitely be procrastination. that taking saturdays completely off makes you more productive the rest of the week. actually. like. I’ve got so much work to do and tight deadlines. last weekend i just took saturday off.

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he’s hilarious. Because there are a lot of people out there who. and i think that same thing goes on with productivity stuff. if they tried just a little bit harder. because it’s making us all You 2. and that makes me sad.lifehackingmovie. A lot of people have discovered that. at least i’m trying to say something and share some bit of myself for people. and people have all kinds of really interesting marketing names for it. and he has amazing thoughts on the whole life hacking movement. and for that matter at a time when people were realizing you could actually make a living off of the blog. But it ultimately comes down to a lot of people who can’t be bothered to read a whole paragraph of anything anymore. merlin lived in Tallahassee for a while. i’m going to go buy a Martha Stewart Living and i’m going to read that. unfortunately. say. i’m not saying i’m a freaking genius. and there were a bunch of sites about all kinds of hippie bullshit. in between water spit takes and phone calls telling his wife he’d be late (sorry Ms. before they figure out how to be really good in writing. and it’s why it’s so Digg-able. when i started this in 2004 there were a couple pretty ok blogs about using microsoft Office. when i emailed him and said i was from florida state. and it’s depressing.The inTerviews www.You say to somebody. Mann). Because she’s got some really neat ideas for labeling cans. This is the idea. “Sixteen New Ways to Print graph Paper. but. i’ll say that the book was three years old at that time. as much as you may like or hate something that i do. it is why it’s so popular on social networking sites. People get addicted to this crap.0 . 28 . They’re recycling other people’s half-baked ideas and then putting a Digg button on it. funny enough. Getting Things Done. but i came into it at a time when there weren’t a lot of blogs about this. But i think there is a certain amount of “intellectual tourism.com merlIn mann not only does merlin mann have one of the coolest names ever. that “i sure would like for this hovel that i live in to be really fancy. he said he felt obligated to do an interview.” if you like. i don’t think you could really do that with a list of thirtyfive things.” and it’s ridiculous and stupid. But there weren’t that many sites about. and it had not been going crazy in sales at that point. could have something really interesting to say. in some cases people aren’t really contributing anything.mm: right now there’s so many life hacking and productivity blogs. we had a great and insightful interview.” so instead of taking the huge bags of garbage out. It really encourages a certain kind of willful dumbfuckery that is really prevalent on the internet right now. i don’t want to overstate what blogs have done for Getting Things Done.” or “Thirty-five ways to Turbocharge Your hipster PDa.

because to me that’s like alphabetizing or recycling. i mean. it i feel like life hacks and especially some of the stuff would be a revelation. the stuff that they want to do with the raw materials our obsession needs to be with how much less bullshit that are available to them. . I talk about with Inbox Zero is very much defensive driving. . we’re going to make more awesome stuff. frankly i don’t want you for a reader. hopefully in with the way people are treated in most companies. so i think that that is so sit there and freak out about etched in most of our minds stuff. make the things I’m really excited about? And I think if we all start thinking about our work in that way. in start-ups and are entrepreneurs? I 29 Time management. i really bristle when i hear these terms. i especially bristle at the term email organization. really valuable? There are people out there who are successful people who are really. what stuff i need to manage. etc. get organized. what’s interesting is in america there’s this really rich mythology around the core story of america such a huge amount of the and of american business.com . what bullshit that they do at work. in order to what they need to do to get by and trying to figure out completely clear my desk for large blocks of time to how to make it to the end of the day without crying. .think and behave and create in ways that are antithetical to the kind of extended thinking that improves our life and improves the way of our critical skills. The obsession we Before people can ever even get to the level of attention need to have is not with Six Sigma and Quality and blah management and figuring out whether they’re doing blah blah. mm: well. could we free up for people to do this stuff that’s really. . there are people who have the entrepreneurial So I’m really interested in the idea of figuring that out. to drop. and. i think a lot of people are doing monkeywork do i have to get rid of. . they’re just trying to stay could we be doing today? And how much more time alive. i’m not saying i’m freaking marcel Proust. . that’s giving us more stress than value.lifehackingmovie. but if you don’t have time to read a thousand words about how to manage your attention. and stuff that’s not even going to then becomes desperately matter tomorrow. really ashamed of how far JD: Do you think life hackers are found more behind they are in email. to matter when i’m dead. stuff that’s stressing me out thInk It’s really hard to This idea of somebody is stuff that’s not even going who comes from nothing.The inTerviews www. or manaGe your tIme IF you who works really hard. But when i hear somebody say something about time management. because i think it’s really hard to manage your time if you haven’t figured out how to manage your attention. i’m starting to think about being aware of the things that have your attention and making very mindful decisions over time about whether you elect to keep giving them your attention. The thing i’m obsessed with right now. it’s just being able to keep from being run off If we all figure out the stuff that we can really afford the road by a drunk. so. where i just manaGe your attentIon. if i allow haven’t FIGured out how to wealthy by figuring out how myself to have a feedback to make a lot of money. for example. any company is going to try You 2. But today. feel like success looks like. spirit and go out and do that on their own. right now i’m much more interested in the idea of attention management. is how do I figure out what stuff I don’t think they bring that same energy to everything need to do. you’re not going to do that that is kind of what we good work. JD: What image does our culture give the hard worker? increasingly. and loop of stress. i a wholesome way.0 . mission statements and values and excellence. mm: at the heart of it.

people are so face on it?” No.Is really aBout FIGurInG out how to Clear thInGs oFF the taBle and This is controversial.The inTerviews www. a ll thIs produCtIvIty stuFF and the to- do lIsts. are you going to make tote bags with your The trouble with multi-tasking is. i’m listening. and it’s very ironic. how do we figure out how to incentivize you to work really hard? Hey. People are. is an idea of mindfulness. if you’re drunk. and i’m listening. in a The nature of bureaucracy. and it’s an idea of saying. Your judgment is already i don’t know if that even makes sense. business running.you’re like life hacks. people are interested in things matters to you. but a lot of people work in companies doInG It so you Can Go where the management is make Cool stuFF. you’re not in the position to decide whether you should drive. you should drive.” at a certain point.That’s why we’re in the business called “What are you going to do? Are you going to create a irony. like. the harder it is to MM: At some point over the last twenty-five years. the less likely you are to be able to decide whether a one-person publishing operation. just keeping the it’s all that stuff. that becomes almost the biggest piece of work in the entire business. and the larger your company is. Karl Marx talked about this a pretty long time ago. when it’s done well and it’s not just stupid tips. in a to work on what really lot of companies. it applies to anybody who has noticed there’s something that is repeatedly getting in their way and they need to figure out a way to try and keep that thing out of their way. the multi-tasker. Because they’re convinced that they’re more network and overhead goes to the operations doing a great job of answering the phone and typing and administrations of having a company and facilitating emails.com . everybody thinks they’re a great a word. like. stuff i care about and doing talks. that’s so woefully disconnected from the way the actual what It’s all aBout.. “how can i turn this little bit to be something more that I want it to be?” That’s fully useful to anybody. especially with somebody who has get. and the drunker you i think about a lot.. I’m pretty much going to convinced that they’re great at it and that they need it 30 keep doing what i’m doing. life hacking can apply to anybody. there is much more incentive to work hard because it’s something that means something to you. think people decided that multi-tasking is something that almost everybody thinks they’re good at. but communication between people in that company. and the truth is it’s like drunk driving. which is writing to do their job. work is done that they’re just struggling to make these little encampments amongst JD: What are your themselves that give them shelter thoughts on multi-tasking? from the asinine behavior of the people that they work for. I do. because you’re drunk.at the heart of it. is that the larger your organization gets. franchise? Are you going to write forty books. when you’re working for yourself or when you’re working for a start-up. “Don’t you want to grow?” I’m. the reason bureaucracy is business context. JD: Do you think that life hacking only applies to techies and technology workers? mm: no. it’s at least the basis of corporate america. if that’s not the basis of capitalism.. “Yeah.lifehackingmovie. but i’m going to say it.. i think Create larGe BloCks oF tIme the irony of it is that. that they seldom stop to realize how You 2. i can listen. life hacking. but it’s something impaired.0 . “Grow into what?” It’s like there are all these people who can’t wait to turn into the kind of companies that they hate.to figure out how to get more stuff out of you with fewer resources. i’m typing.

That’s what when you do see somebody who you think is a great has taken me years to figure out. and my life hack right now is. i never called myself a guru. i’m just going i want to be doing a lot less of to do it for a second and get back to doing. i’m not doing this because i’m great. faces. like the struggled with trying to remember things. and for me this has Is IF It doesn’t help me modes: collecting. but many life hack? americans are still not aware of it.lifehackingmovie. . if i’m doing right now. it’s about working doing stuff like email and toin five different kinds of do lists. but really it’s just a movie. while working. especially anything with horse is running. to me these are all like attention. afford to drop and not create proBaBly a waste oF tIme. You 2. i’ve learned how to make sure that i periodically review the JD: So. just in the last six months. i think that’s this stuff. processing. if it doesn’t help a smart way to approach your work. tagging to-do’s. It’s reviewing. That’s what it’s on the campus of this medical school. or sort of be open to distractions little bits of spackle that keep the world all held together. m one of the breakthroughs that i’ve had. tagging tasks. should we firewall our stuff that matters to me. . it’s like a zoetrope. all of this incredibly huge amount of horseshit that we all deal with. you would find all about. There’s any variety of ways in videos and doing podcasts and doing stuff that i really which you can work in modes. but that’s what it’s multi-tasker.You what you discover is that they’re actually really don’t . out that there really is no way to do more than one thing with your mind at a time. i’ve it’s like an animation. and tangents? and increasingly.com . is really about figuring out how to clear things off the table and create large blocks of time 31 to work on what really matters to you.terribly and how half-assedly they’re doing everything. need to capture. it’s probably a waste of time. mm: Because in various ways i’m a serial basket case. about. where if i don’t get there and talk and try to share what’s working www. and how many of these bits can i doing. to be honest. me make stuff that i love. That’s a very different skill from that stuff out. if you talked to anybody doing it so you can go make cool stuff. you have to i’m trying to just spend more time writing and making really work in modes. like David allen or corey Doctorow. i have a very pictures are moving fast enough that it seems that the bad memory for most things. i can’t say this enough. i sometimes describe myself as feeling like a drunk in the pulpit. because that’s a different thing. organizing. They’re not systems that you do just for fun. i’m trying to spend less time focusing on these little tips.0 . what you end up doing is five things badly. really become a question of make stuFF that I love. i’m like a lot of gurus—and i hate that term. what? Why would good at changing gears quickly and recovering from you tag a task if you can just do it? You’ve got to figure interruptions quickly. i’m doing this because i’m terrible. especially the work become part of your productivity system. Then i could present my work to people as an artifact i think Getting Things Done is of what i’m interested in a system that’s entirely based and try to spend less time y lIFe haCk rIGht now on modes. these little rituals that mm: i think to do your best work. i’ve struggled with attention issues for a long time. Why are you doing any of this? You’re what people call multi-tasking. i mean. i really don’t want to be enemies. so i’ve learned how to write things down. really since the birth of my daughter. processing.The inTerviews i’m very interested in clutter. for myself. This is something that JD: Personally why do you feel the need to the Buddhists have known for so many years. enjoy. all that stuff. i’ve started to realize that all of this productivity stuff and the to-do lists. and if i do That’s where i am right now. i think it’s invaluable. and really that requires any kind of thinking at all. i struggle with all of this every day.

for me. i like the idea of trying to capture that as quickly as i i think part of the reason people liked it was it was a can after it occurs to me. i got to this point where field notes.” Of course now.” metaphorically. my life. completely then don’t dICk around if i know i’ve got a pen and a antithetical to the idea of piece of paper. i used to be really I used to have one. leather notebook that they It’s like a Zen koan. something’s got to give. because it’s really antithetical to the entire reason why I thought this was a good idea in the first place. IF you want to not. it’s not the most powerful idea this dork with this windows media Phone. it’s something that i used and have They wouldn’t be able to use the drugstore card.5 x 4 form factor so they’d have Hipster PDA is a bunch of index cards held together to buy the card to be able to use them with the wallet. “You know what? I don’t really need a JD: What are some other life hacks that you PDa. what i need is a place to write down stuff that do personally? I don’t want to forget. i could end up back on the bottle. in business they call it a joke. which is why i always it must be said. you a hundred could be valuable. pencil everywhere i go. i was approached by really Be a CraFtsman.The idea behind the and making me douchey. you know. in your idea of ubiquitous hard at GetInG Better at capture with inexpensive JD: Can you talk about items. I’ve had probably five or six different into the moleskine notebook. For me it was. people do about printing sImple as you Can and stuff out on index cards and it sounds silly. mm: i really like the idea of trying to capture ideas. it was a way of saying. it’s just stuff that’s easy and available. so what we want to do what you do. 32 bandoleer around my chest. “oh. carry it around. write things down. i’ll never again having drugstore index cards all day. nerd belt. it’s just graph paper.com . you’re i want to do about it. some kind of I You 2. and where that goes.The inTerviews www. and that’s we really are very interested tools and then work really important to me.lifehackingmovie. and i i was. don’t FIddle wIth have anxiety about whether that you carry around or i should capture an idea or write things on. you know. half a dozen companies that maybe my only valuable idea were like. an my weapon of choice right now is the coudal Partners’ iPod. and the part that’s funny is that it’s not i was. really digital like PDas. like. for ruining a really interesting idea you’re holding it in your hip pocket. it got blown have a piece of paper and completely out of proportion. i’m not chewbacca. and and now there’s all this if something occurs to me. at the time. well. hipster PDa was really just this idea of capturing. with a binder clip. and it’s hipster because american business. but the thing is. because people can never decide would put that in. so. it would be a 3. Kudos. and it’s got a ruler because i want i don’t want to carry these things on a to measure something.” But i know in this hipster PDa idea. and i’m this in Getting Things Done. “buy milk. “You know. that’s a really interesting idea and offer. i discovered that i didn’t really need to have a Palm Pilot. “we’re interested Got to master a Couple is. and figuring out later what little jokey. i incredibly retarded stuff that t’s makInG [a system] as know where to capture that. and a Palm v. But the idea of the size. i love these. and it would be a slightly unusual whether or not it’s serious or a joke. the Hipster PDA? is do a 43 folders–branded index card and then a $100 mm:The hipster PDa is great. Treos over time.” That became ten index cards and a clip. maybe one idea out of days.0 . but it’s a very powerful idea in guy with an index card doing fine. i had a mobile phone. but they’re really costly.” so used in the past. in the early the system.

it might be trying to outline a book i want to do. you do have things to say but your mind is so clouded by distractions and little things going “ding” that you it’s making it as simple as you can and then don’t dick can’t put a thought together. Don’t fiddle with the system. open. and i can be anywhere in the world except inside of creativity is about sitting down my productivity application. i had a small role in helping to design it. it’s an amazing wrIte. and the way [to do tells me when i need to do something. called The and tells you waht poem to want to have to remember Creative Habit. “here’s what i wish this mm: creativity and here’s no muse. i’ve tried to remove as many parts if you’re having troubles with creativity. If you want to really be a craftsman. around all day. i want a system of the things she said that i that lets me log things in it. and the irony is that rather than make me it could be preparing for a talk i’m going to give. and one sIttInG down and speaking gig. it could be helping this in place means you’re very open and receptive to my daughter learn how to walk. Why? So that I There’s no muse. because to think about any of that monkeyshit when i’m doing you don’t sweat all this minor stuff. i never choreographer. hurts. something that really matters. The way that i work a topic i’ve been thinking noBody that Comes and is that i take omnifocus about a lot lately. i’ve and i use that to track all been reading this amazing taps you on the shoulder of the shit i never want to book by Twyla Tharp. is a habit. i never want about creativity. to do the thing that you site. love is the idea that creativity. it really keyed up and anal retentive.0 .com .lifehackingmovie. close email and have it not be you what poem to write. the have to think about. there’s thing did” and then made it spontaneity. right? A way to and for me that something might be making a funny prepare for being creative is to set aside these blocks video or might be trying to write something for my of time that are just for you. i can you on the shoulder and tells thInGs that dIstraCt you.JD: What have you been doing personally to stay organized and productive? million hammers a week. you’ve got to master somewhere between Prozac and meditation is a recipe a couple tools and then work really hard for helping a lot of Americans figure out how to shut the at getting better at what you do. having a system like could be eating dinner with my wife. it might be as I can from the system until it’s basically a glorified either a) because you have nothing to say. and the way that you something. JD: How do you fit creativity and spontaneity a very small role. to empty my daughter’s book full of brilliant advice Diaper genie. and then like the title says. But i just don’t want creativity and spontaneity and improvisation. which is into your system? basically a way of saying. or b) because outline and a calendar and some paper. there’s that] Is to set asIde all the can close that program and nobody that comes and taps have it not be open. focusing on trying to do and writing until your brain hurts. mm: what i do right now is use a program called omnifocus. This is actually do that.The inTerviews www. You don’t fuck up and be alone with their thoughts for more than 33 get better at what you do by trying out a thirty seconds at a time. You get better at what you do by making lots of birdhouses until they’re not ugly anymore. we’re turning into a country t C You 2. wrItInG untIl your BraIn holds it for me. and she says reatIvIty Is aBout to have to remember to call so many things that are so somebody about a potential smart and so good. so that’s a system that for me is very simple. can sit down and have your brain not hurt is to set aside all the things that distract you. want to do.

lifehackingmovie. because that’s how it works.com Inbox Zero Talk youtu. and if you have your mind ready for that.The inTerviews www. it’s going to come to you right at the moment when you’re least prepared. you can capture it and then make awesome things.be/z9UjeTMb3Yk Twitter @merlinmann watch the interview at www.com 34 You 2.and a planet where people just find it intolerable to not fill every second with some kind of yammering that distracts them from how unhappy they really are. merlIn on the weB 43 folders www. thrilling stuff. and so creating these blocks of time to be away from whatever your “work” is.com Inbox Zero inboxzero. is how creativity really happens.lifehackingmovie.43folders. and the stuff that’s going to come to you that’s the most exciting.com . that’s when creativity happens. Between sleep and not working.0 .

(When you do go online.Thanks for reaDing ImPORTANT Do noT go online.com) . Do someThing ProDucTive.botshigh. check out www.

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