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Ancient Indian Astrology AIA Yearly Digest 2006

Ancient Indian Astrology AIA Yearly Digest 2006

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Discussions on Ancient Indian Astrology. An edited version of all the worthy conversations happened in ancient_indian_astrolgy Yahoo Group during the year 2006. A 550 page book containing 73 edited conversations.
Discussions on Ancient Indian Astrology. An edited version of all the worthy conversations happened in ancient_indian_astrolgy Yahoo Group during the year 2006. A 550 page book containing 73 edited conversations.

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[Sreenadh OG, Kishore Patnaik, Vernalagnia, Gaurav Ghosh]

[Editor: This thread started based on a statement made by Kishore Patnaik, while
discussing the connection between Mulatrikona and history of astrology in the previous
thread, and then became a detailed discussion of history]

Sreenadh (To Kishore Patnaik):

Quote

No matter when Ramayan has taken place, it certainly precedes
mahabharat (about 5000 years ago) and all the things I have talked in my
earlier mail belonged to these times-pre varna days through mahabharat times.

Unquote

From where you got this mathematics? i.e. Ramayana period - Mahabharata
period = 5000 years ?! Any supporting evidence?
Quote

Whereas all the names, events and times (such as sayana, sangam age, Indus
valley period etc) you have mentioned belonged to much later times to
mahabharat. And hence, there is no comparison.

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Unquote
Indus Valley civilization is AFTER Mahabharata period?! That argument would
really take time to digest, also due to the fact that it is presented with no
supporting evidence (literary or otherwise)!

I assume that you will agree to the fact that Vedic period was before
Mahabharata. Then your argument would indicate that -

• Vedic civilization was BEFORE Indus valley civilization and

• Indus valley civilization took shape AFTER Vedic period!!!

And those who lived before supposed to have attacked those who lived after! Is there
a typo in your argument? Erroneously putting "Indus valley period" in that list or the
like?

Kishore Patnaik:

Let me put one thing very very clearly-The Indian chronology I follow is not that one
which has been given by the Britishers!!!!

Now it has been proved beyond doubt that Mahabharat has taken place about
5000 years to our times (this is what I meant in my message and not Ramayan has
preceded M'Bharat by 5000 years ago).

Secondly, the Indus valley civilization dating is not without dispute. Once they have
dated one layer, they have ASSUMED that the difference between each layer is 500
years and hence, the lowermost layer should be about 3000 BCE. As per the western
historians of yester years, the so called aryan invasion took place around 1500 BCE
and the Vedas have taken place after that- with say, (once more it is only baseless
assumption) 200 years between each veda! I really wonder why on earth people like
you have never asked the western historians for proof of their assumptions. Thus, we
can safely reject the dating of Indus valley. Of course, I agree that it is yet to be
correctly(or atleast, logically and universally agreed) dated and till then, I am
afraid we can only safely take it to be after the Mahabharat, because there was

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no mention of such a mega civilization anywhere in Mahabharat.

On the other hand, there are several attempts to prove that Indus valley
civilization is either Vedic or dravidic in nature. But again, there is no universally
accepted or logically concluded pattern in these attempts. To such an extent, this
seems to be a civilization of Yaksas which might have been mentioned but not
described in MB. ie to say, the Indus valley civilziation might have slightly
predated MB. But to be frank, this is only presumption.
Now, let us look at when Ramayan took place. Frankly, there is not a single date
which can be universally accepted. It is indeed true that it must be very very prior to
MB.
If you hoodwink a bit, it is possible that this must have taken place anywhere in
between 9000 years ago (to which date the lineage of Nepalese is available) to
1,75,000 years ago (thanks to the dating of the Adam bridge found in the Pak strait)

But I am not arguing on this count now because I am not convinced of any these
arguments.

You are saying that it will take a long time to digest what I have said about the
chronology, but will you please give me one iota of evidence to prove your ( read that
of the westeners) chronology, either in research papers or by way of
archaeology? Well, you might not be aware of this but let me assure you except for a
big gasbag of assumptions and assumptions, there is no such proof or logic presented
by any of the westeners. If you don’t believe me, ask David Frawley.

Sreenadh:

My doubt is: What if Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization existed at least 2000 years prior
to Vedic period? i.e. A gap of at least 2000 or more years between them. Supportive
ideas -

• There is no mention of such a civilization in Vedas.

• There is no evidence that Sindhu-Saraswaty people knew Sanskrit.

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• There is no evidence that Vedic people knew the Sindhu-Saraswaty language.

• Sanskrit survived but not Sindhu-Saraswaty language (since being ancient?)

• All the later languages of Indian subcontinent use Swara chinhas, but not
Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization.

• Many technical advancements of Sindhu-Saraswaty civilization seem to have lost
its continuity, in the known historical period, even at the time of Mouryas.

• There are many archeological evidences to prove that Sindhu-Saraswaty
people migrated to other parts of the world (due to dying up of Saraswaty
river?), and settled there.

Kishore Patnaik:

Exactly this is the bone of contention between the western historians and those of
nationalist school. While the formal hold that the Indus valley is the beginning of
known history of Indians, the nationalists beg to differ.

As per the traditional school, Indus valley has flourished for 1500 years or so ,
between 3000 BCE to 1500 BCE before the Aryans have landed upon them to raze
the civilization. While it is true that the civilization has come to an abrupt end and
some buildings looking like getting burnt down, there is no other proof to
say that the civilization has been hit by an invasion, leave alone the same being by
Aryans.
More interestingly, such attackers, if they have existed, have never bothered to
settle down in the beautiful and evacuated city, thus, making their identity a well
hidden secret perhaps for ever. The main problem for the westerners have
emanated from two counts:
First one was that the Indians were their slaves. They neither could believe nor
digest the fact that these weak blacks could have such a hoary past. Thus, they
tried to underplay the Indian past as much as they could. Also, it helped them
politically to divide the Indians by seeding the stories of division amongst

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Indians.

The second problem that they have encountered is the Christian belief of Genesis.
As per the Bible, the world is only 4000 years or so old and every known piece of
fact had to be inter-wined into this limited period of known world.
Conceding anything contrary to what has been told above would make Indian
history much older than the Biblic beginning of the world and apparently, this is
heresy!! Hence, this kind of sew and stitch theories were floated in case of Indian
past.
Not withstanding these lacunae, the westeners went on with their "story making",
trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as the story of Indra and Vrttra)and
Puranas whenever it suited their imagination. Unfortunately, the westeners have
studied our scriptures more than us and if any Indian is well read in the scriptures, he
never knew English or he never had the attitude to recreate history from these
holybooks. In any case, Indians were not much bothered about History. (Till it
was pointed out by westeners, we did not know we had an Asoka!) Hence, there
was hardly anyone to protest or correct the western version of Ancient Indian
history.

Hence, these wild imaginations went unquestioned for ages, before the
nationalists have built up a stong school for themselves during the late 80's.

The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded Indus valley
civilization and tried to chronicle the country's story based on the literary sources.
While westeners also have used these sources, they have depended heavily on the
Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow galore in apparent
contradictions.
On the other hand, nationalists have depended more on the puranic sources as
well as the classic works such as those of Kalidasa and canakya.

Thus, they place Sri Krishna at 3000 BCE and Chandragupta maurya at 1500
BCE as against the western version of maurya's times being in 327 BCE.

While the nationalists have their share of mistakes, the a fool proof concept of

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Indian history can be developed and such a day is not really very far off. Thus, I
share more beliefs of the nationalists so far as chronology is concerned.

Sreenadh:

You haven't answered my doubts. ;)
Quote

Not withstanding these lacunae, the westerners went on with their "story
making", trying to pickup pieces from Rgveda (such as the story of Indra
and Vrttra)and Puranas whenever it suited their imagination.

Unquote
It is all the same. Now the Indians are doing that. :) That is the only difference. :)
Quote

The nationalist school believes that Vedic culture has preceded Indus
valley civilization and tried to chronicle the country's story based on the
literary sources.

Unquote

Yap. you are agreeing with it! :) Don't believe in any thing! It is the proofs that
matters and not the made-up stories!

Quote

While westerners also have used these sources, they have depended
heavily on the Buddhist and Jin versions , which were somehow galore in
apparent contradictions. On the other hand, nationalists have depended
more on the puranic sources as well as the classic works such as those of
Kalidasa and canakya.

Unquote

It is all the same - now we are trying to totally deny the contributions of Jin and
Buddhist school, a torture started centuries ago and made perfect by
Sankaracharya! Let it be Buddhist and Jin texts, or Puranic evidence, or " wild
Interpretations" of Vedic literature, it is the same - they are all secondary

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evidences, in the strict view of the history, that should only be used to substantiate
the available primary evidences. Now everybody is violating this rule!

Nobody is interested in searching and understanding primary evidences but only in
story making! People who are not interested in archeological, linguistic, rock
inscriptions and other primary evidences are making stories purely based on
"popular" ancient literature, there also not even trying to directly study the
available ancient literature!! This fails them even in there statements about
literary history! This is the problem I was trying to present. :)

P.S.: Look at the difference between the "popular" belief about the literary history of
astrology, and the history of astrology as per literary evidence, which I have
described earlier based on Schools of astrology. What caused this shift – is it not a
common problem?

Kishore Patnaik:

Your apprehensions are right. But do you know that most of the ancient history of the
world is written on the basis of the literary texts?

If puranas are wrong, how could it be that Jataka tales can be right?

There is a peculiar position. For eg., Asoka has inscripted so many rock edicts but he is
not really popular in the literature. In certain places, he has described as a villain etc.

Romesh Thapar has specifically written a book on Asoka and as usual, it was full of
either “I think so" or “It is so, since I have told you so"

The searching for solid history in India is at minimal and even what has been
available, is not fully documented or researched.

Another problem we face is the problem of borders. We share our past with our
neighbours but they have no respect for that past because both Pakistan and
Bangladesh believe that all History prior to Moslem sultans is trash.

Anyway, I hope to resolve some of your doubts in next posts.

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Sreenadh:

I somebody tries to desing history based on statements like -
Quote

It was full of either " I think so" or " It is so, since I have told you so"

Unquote
Then how can he be called a true historian?!

Do you know there is only very few texts that describes even the "Outlines of the
Subject called History", i.e. Books that describe "How to study history", and the
wonderful fact is that even for Post Graduate Courses on history these basics are not
even touched with! ;) How such people can understand the ancient history?! This is
the scenario! How many true historians we see today, became historians after
learning the history as it is tough now?! Very few! Why? The people who study
history as it is taught now, CAN NOT become historians! The study method now
followed in learning/teaching history itself is against the true sprit of
understanding (doing research, revealing, and spreading light on the dark areas) of
ancient history!

Kishore Patnaik:

You share my sentiments. So far as Romilla Thapar is concerned, (it is she not he),
she has earned lots of name thanks to her westernized ways and being a highly
polished and yet very impressive lady and not due to her knowledge of History. I
am an occasional reader of history and still, I could phew phew her theories. For one,
I do not think she is a historian leave alone a great one!

Humans yet to understand difference between an impressive person and a
knowledgeable person.

Sreenadh:

Romilla Thapar is left sided thinker. Due to this very reason, she can not be called a
true historian. she is a worker doing the job of interpreting history to suit the view
Marxist party. Nothing more nothing less. That is my understanding. How such a

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person can be called a historian?! Are we not speaking about historians and not workers
doing some job?!

Kishore Patnaik:

Please read my mail once again. Romilla thapar is taken to be a big historian by
western world and government. She is impressive and polished and all that. As you
said, she is a marxist. Marxists say they oppose imperialism on one hand and hence,
reject what the britishers say and want to reject what nationalists say because it is
mostly RSS on the other. But obviously, they are catering to Britishers' view in
the end. SO did Nehru also.

I do not consider RT as a historian leave alone a big historian. She is a big name only
because the governments were full of Marxist sympathizers and she is a polished
and impressive lady and not because of her history knowledge.

Vernalagnia:

Quote

Please read my mail once again.

Unquote
Hey guys, You can tone it down because you're both saying the same thing and
there's no need to feud :) Whether or not you read each others' posts, most of us do ;)

Kishore Patnaik:

That is what I am trying to impress Sreenadh. Btw, where on earth have you
disappeared?

[Editor: Vernalagnia was a mysterious id. None knows his name or whereabouts. He
appears in the group rarely, puts some unique questions or comments and
disappears! This was the reason for the above comment from Kishore Patnaik.
Curious – no answer came for this question, and Vernalagnia disappeared again!]

Sreenadh:

Follow this link - and you will find some realy good material About Ancient

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Indian civilizations - its history and contributions.
http://www.ece.lsu.edu/kak/hist.html
The same link is provided in the Links section of the forum as well.

Gaurav Ghosh:

I have articles on the latest researches done over there...If anybody is interested. I
can post them.

Sreenadh:

Please post those articles.

Kishore Patnaik (To Gaurav Ghosh):

Thanks for sending the piece by private mail. It is laughable to call this as a
research article. It is written by a Christian Jesuit, heavily coming against
Hinduism and propagating his religion. There is no research in it nor there is
anything new in the lies and half lies and wrong interpretations being proliferated.
Please exercise extra caution in becoming a foolish instrument in pontification of India.

Vernalagnia:

The problem isn't any of this. It lies more in ideology. All ideologies are basically the
mental equivalent of a virus, since the brain is held captive and free thought dies.
Totalitarian ideologies (communism, fascism, religions that rule life itself, etc.) are all
turmoil-fraught if taken seriously.

Kishore Patnaik:

I accept the role of ideology when it comes to interpretation. i.e. I interpret an event
as per my ideology and you do as per yours. Even in vedas, it is said that Ekat Sat
viprah bahuda vadanthi (truth is one but the learned will talk of it in different ways)
That I think we should accept, as it indicates we have an open mind.

But in Indian History, even in accepting the facts, the ideology is playing a major role.
Ie instead of helping people to interpret an event from various angles, an ideology is
proving to be a mental block in accepting the truth and polemics is taking the front

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seat, stabbing the truth to die. i.e. to say the History is being written in accordance
to the ideology and what is worse is that these half lies and often white-lies are being
forced on young minds as being the whole truth.

The marxists want not just interpret the History as per their ideology but they want
to WRITE history as per their whims and fancies. This is bad.

The best e.g. is the book written by Romilla Thapar on Somnath. She left just short
of eulogising the invader, while everyone knows what are the general facts of the
massacre of Somnath.

To be frank, it is very easy to see how the Marxists WRITE the history-even
contemporary history. If you take the Godhra issue, even the Indian press, which is
full of marxists, has given a back seat to the basic proximate issue of Godhra
massacre and much was made of Best Bakery case. Few Moslem lives seem to be
more valuable than those of a train full Hindus. Well, guess we are living in India
where we are ordained to be second rate citizens.

Sreenadh:

The document was not worthy, and I requested Gaurav ji to delete it (from file
section of the group), and he did it. So I don't think it is good to discuss it any
more in the group.
You can follow the link to Subhash kak ji's (Distinguished Professor of
Department of Electrical & Computer Engineering, Louisiana State University,
Baton Rouge, USA)site, or follow the link provided to his site in the Links section of
the forum. He had also permitted us to upload his articles in the files section of our
forum, and so feel free to do so if someone wants to direct the attention of others in
the direction of his research in any subject.

P.S.:1: Kishore ji, for sure you will find Subhash ji's articles worth reading. His
researches points ot the direction of Vedic and Sindhu-Sarasvaty civilizations
sharing one and the same continuity. :)

2: Dear Verna ji, I agree with you as well.

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3: Please don't under estimate the possible contributions of Gourav ji, in serious
discussions in the forth coming days. My regards to him.

Kishore Patnaik:

1. Because the discussion was done here to send the paper etc., I have posted it here.

2. I Know Mr Subhash Kak and we have had very serious discussions, as we are on
the same side of the fence. But this was all more than 2 years ago, when I was
more than serious about Indian History. In fact, I have personally requested
Dr Kalyanraman, an eminent Historian (he is also like subhash Kak and started
seriously pursuing History , especially about Indus valley to publish several
volumes on the subject after his voluntary retirement from his well paying and
high flying job)to discuss the history of astrology, if he is interested. I have
referred this group to him and if he comes back to me, I will certainly talk about it
here.

3. I have no intention of underestimating anyone, if that PS is for me (which I
hope is not)

[Editor: This thread abruptly ended there reaching no definite conclusion. But certainly it was
a very informative interaction. Later one more mail came from Vinita Kumar
remembering this thread and providing some new info, as if a concluding mail to this thread]

Vinita Kumar:

I think it was interesting to know from the previous thread that there is not
enough research on ancient Indian history and many of the "facts" are biased or
distorted.

This made me bring out a book that was recommended by someone but which I
never got to read because of its thickness. It is called "Fingerprints of the Gods" by
Graham Hancock. Despite the size very few pages are devoted to India. So u all are
right, we have looked at India and Indian history generally from the Western
perspective.... and therefore missed its true significance (perhaps).

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The book is described as "An intellectual detective story..(which) directs probing
questions at orthodox history presenting disturbing new evidence that historians have
tried - but failed - to explain.

Accurate ancient maps that show the world as it last looked during the Ice Age
thousands of years before any civilization capable of making such maps is
supposed to have existed...Evidence of the devastating cataclysms that shook the earth
when the Ice Age came to an end....Extraordinary scientific and
astronomical information encoded into prehistoric myths...The incredible feat of the
construction of the great pyramids of Egypt and of the megalithic temples on the Giza
plateau...The mysterious astronomical alignments of the pyramids and the Great
Sphynx...The myths of Viracocha and Quetzalcoat!...The pyramids of the Sun and the
Moon in Mexico...The doomsday calendar and eerie memories of the ancient
Maya...The warning form Hopi of Arizona"

Yes, very few reference are to India, but the fact remains that these ancient
civilizations are not unique to India. What is amazing is that many other ancient
civilizations perhaps shared the same astrological and other such knowledge and there
was a common thread running thru these...sometimes thru myths and sometimes
in other ways:

"..When Pied Piper turns up both in the German myth of Hamelin and in Mexico long
before Columbus, and is linked in both places to certain attributes like the color red,
it can hardly be a coincidence...Likewise, when one finds numbers like
108 or 9X13 appearing in the Vedas, in the temples of Angkor, in Babylon, in
Heraclitus' dark utterances, and also in the Norse Valhalla, it is not accident....."

"There are...10800 bricks in the Agnicyana, the India fire altar. There are 10800
stanzas in the Rigveda,...Each stanza is made of 40 syllables with the result that the
entire composition consists of 432,000 syllables...no more no less. And in the Rigveda
I:164 (a typical stanza) we read the '12= spoked wheel in which 720 sons of Agni are
established....In the Hebrew Cabala there are 72 angels through whom the Sephiroth
(divine powers) may be approached, or invoked, by those who know the names and

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numbers,. Rosicrucian tradition speaks of cycles of 108 years (72 plus 36) according to
which the secret brotherhood makes its influence felt. Similarly number 72 and its
permutations and subdivisions are of great significance to the Chinese secret
societies known as Triads..."

Research acquires such great significance and romance when it comes to
"discovering" things shrouded in mystery....but then as Shreenadh keeps
reminding us, pitfalls are many in any such searches, if we dont go to the original
source of evidence.

Someone compared the internet forums of these days to the way the ancient
people were learning things - very often thru discussions.

Very often many things have to be unlearned before true learning can start....
Thanks, all of u for generating thoughts!
[Editor: And thus ended the thread]

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