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livestream episode of the NEPA Freethought Society Podcast concerning women in the secular community. Karla Porter and I discussed sexism, harassment, specific blog posts of Stephanie Zvan, Rebecca Watson, Greta Christina, Ophelia Benson, and more. ...and we took callers www.nepafreethought.org/livestream NEPA Freethought Society | Livestream www.nepafreethought.org Like · · Unfollow Post · Share Leslie Stewart, Raby Jairam and Suzanne MooseBaby Bailey like this. Karla Porter Many thanks to everyone who listened and participated. No doubt their will be criticism and that's fine, as long as it's constructive and respectable it's all good. Monday at 10:15pm · Like · 1 Justin Vacula Ill be answering some criticism of the show tomorrow. Stay tuned at www.justinvacula.com After the show, and during it, we had productive discussion with EllenBeth Wachs. Ill take these to heart to improve for next time. Learning and criticism is a good thing when in a constructive manner. Thanks, Ellen. Justin Vacula's Blog www.justinvacula.com Justin Vacula's Blog explores atheism, philosophy, science, church/state separation, local news, and national news appealing to open-minded religious and non-religious persons in Northeastern Pennsylvania and around the world. Monday at 11:28pm via mobile · Like · 3 · Ophelia Benson Very dishonest. You read a tiny fraction of one of the emails I got and then said "does that sound like a threat to you?" Well of course that one fraction doesn't! But the whole exchange is a different thing, *especially the last two paragraphs*. You're disgraceful. 20 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Ophelia, I also said -- during the podcast -- if I recall correctly, that I didn't think the suddenr response (before investigation) should warrant a dropping out and/or considering it to be a serious threat. There was more than that. Additionally, I elected not to read all of the threat on air. I could have sure, but I read it off air, well before the cast, and didnt think that it was legitimate. 20 hours ago via mobile · Like Justin Vacula There's much more, too, in the podcast? Any other thoughts are welcome. Throw up a blog post if you want or feel free to comment here or on my site. Additionally, if you'd like to come on a future episode, let me know. Karla Porter and I would be happy to chat. 20 hours ago · Like Karla Porter Absolutely delighted to chat. 20 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula You also could have called in during the show. Everyone was invited and I wager you knew
of it. We even offered for callers to be prioritized in the queue. EllenBeth Wachs, too, called and disagreed with us on points. 20 hours ago · Like Karla Porter for a while she did until she more or less came around in the after show call. 20 hours ago · Like Ophelia Benson Bullshit. It's dishonest to read a tiny fraction that is obviously not threatening or doubtful by itself and then say "Does that sound like a threat to you?" DISHONEST. Bad practice. Unethical. EllenBeth by no means agrees with you - she did not "come around." 6 hours ago · Like EllenBeth Wachs "came around?" Came around to what, Karla? When we hung up I thought the only thing we agreed upon was that we disagreed. 6 hours ago · Like Ophelia Benson Not too careful with the truth, you two, are you. 6 hours ago · Like EllenBeth Wachs I read the blog, Justin and when I have a chance, will respond as I don't think that it accurately reflects my positions and/or criticisms nor the conversation following. 6 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Ellenbeth, the criticisms in the blog weren't necessarily yours or the ones you voiced. 6 hours ago via mobile · Like Justin Vacula Opehlia, should we spend about 20 minutes reading the whole thing and discussing it part by part? Coming into the show, Karla even noted it was too heavily scripted and that I would be reading too much. I even neglected to read some of what I drew from Kirby's letter. Everything can't totally be addressed - even in some recent posts of yours discussing Kirby's letter, you didn't talk about the whole thing and only focused on parts. Does that mean you are dishonest? 6 hours ago via mobile · Like Karla Porter I find the aggression and attacks counterproductive, boring and immature no matter who they come from - and it continues. Must I recount? Agreement that several ideas for positive strategies and solutions, that a policy isn't the answer to stopping poor behavior online and at conferences. How about everyone taking sometime to reflect on the appropriateness of their behavior, if they would approve of someone else acting the way they do - and if not, why they persist with their naughtiness, how it benefits the community, and knocking off the harassment and at the same time the pettiness? If this were a company, an awful lot of people would be on disciplinary action. By the way, if there is a conference that needs a consultant or an on staff Director of Comportment, I would be happy to discuss it or refer it to trusted colleagues who are also very competent at fostering and maintaining positive cultures and performance. 5 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Ophelia, do you believe the right course of action -- when considering something that might be a threat -- is to consider it a threat before investigation and cease activities? As a person who has become a public figure in my area (and beyond), I've seen many sorts of nasty things said on the internet about me...I've also received physical mail, much e-mail, have seen forums talking about me, and so much more. ...comment sections, letters to the editor, 'Christmas' cards about how Christians are saying masses in remembrance of me, and much more. I have had fellow college students writing things like, "I hope you get shot" and pleas for me to come to their dorm rooms so they can "fuck me up." (just a sample: http://www.justinvacula.com/2012/06/stephanie-zvan-doesnt-understand.html)
I understand that this is 'part of the game' as a public figure and that it is indicative of -- as the lousy pop song goes -- 'everybody talks.' You're a blogger, speaker, etc...and my situation is similar or even more so in the terms of public activism. I've put my name on lawsuits, church/state complaints, and much more. We're going to get nastiness and perhaps what Greta Christina calls "Schrodinger's Threats." Shouldn't we remain agnostic about the nature of what might be a threat before considering it a threat and, after investigation, make a decision? Should we stay home just because of what seems to be a threat? Justin Vacula's Blog: Stephanie Zvan doesn't understand cyberstalking www.justinvacula.com Justin Vacula's Blog explores atheism, philosophy, science, church/state separation, local news, and national news appealing to open-minded religious and non-religious persons in Northeastern Pennsylvania and around the world. 5 hours ago · Like · Ophelia Benson If you don't have time to talk about it honestly THEN DON'T TALK ABOUT IT. Jeezis. You don't get a pass to distort things because of time constraints. You don't get to lie about me because you're in a hurry. 5 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Ophelia, we're all 'guilty' of talking about things and writing blog posts about things without giving a full treatment. You do it, I do it, Greta Christina does it... We were interested in having the show be 'Did Ophelia Benson's threat ... See More 5 hours ago · Like EllenBeth Wachs Karla, chastising me like a child will get you nowhere fast. THAT was incredibly dismissive and patronizing. I attacked no one. To frame it as though "I came around" was demeaning and "petty." We disagreed about the need for a policy and the effectiveness it would have. I was not looking for a fight. I do not expect my views to be misrepresented nor to be spoken down to. 5 hours ago · Edited · Like Justin Vacula Your July 2nd posts on Kirby's letter...you didn't address all of that. How dishonest, unfair, not careful with the truth, etc. Why even talk about it if you don't have the time to talk about it? You don't get a pass to distort things because of time constraints. You don't get to lie about her because you're in a hurry. Bullshit. It's dishonest to read a tiny fraction. Bad practice. Unethical. Should your logic apply to yourself (or myself)? I don't think so. We don't take time to address every point and have other goals such as discussing other issues, wanting to stay short, etc. One can't properly be expected in a show about a general conversation -- or an overview of issues -- to fully address every little thing that is brought up. It's also unreasonable, I think, to then say "Well, then don't bring it up!" 5 hours ago · Like EllenBeth Wachs Justin, why are you just blogging about people? Wouldn't it be more productive to stick to issues? I thought that was going to be the topic of your podcast and was quite taken aback. 5 hours ago · Like
Justin Vacula I answered this here: What was the purpose of the discussion? There wasn't just one purpose for this discussion. In the event description, though, I noted, "Topics to be discussed are sexism, harassment at conferences, anti-harassment conf... See More 5 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula From the event description: The NEPA Freethought Society Podcast will be having a very special Livestream episode (streaming at www.nepafreethought.org/livestream) featuring Karla Porter and Justin Vacula concerning an ongoing discussion in the secular community -- more specifically in the blogosphere -- regarding women in the secular community this Monday at 8PM EST. Topics to be discussed are sexism, harassment at conferences, anti-harassment conference policies, harassment, tone, specific posts and comments by identified feminist bloggers, and much more. After initial discussion between Karla and Justin for about thirty minutes, podcast producer Jason Gogola will open Skype lines -- using the handle NEPAfreethought -- for callers. All are welcome to call to weigh in on the issues. If you write about these issues or otherwise are considered a prominent voice on these issues -- no matter the viewpoint -- and would like priority in the call list, please e-mail email@example.com. Feel free, too, to share this with others who may be interested. NEPA Freethought Society | Livestream www.nepafreethought.org 5 hours ago · Like · EllenBeth Wachs As I have already mentioned to you, you don't have to call someone a name to personally attack them. 5 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula Ophelia, the invitation is still out there if you want it. Karla and I will have you on the show. We can do a special livestream episode once again. Weekdays are typically good after 7PM and weekends are even more flexible. I'll introduce whatever topic you want, read whatever you want, and then we'll have a discussion. firstname.lastname@example.org 5 hours ago · Like Ophelia Benson Don't be ridiculous. You're a hack pursuing a vendetta; I'm not going near your poxy "show." 4 hours ago · Like Karla Porter For the record - my interpretation of the conversation after the show with EllenBeth was that we had more agreements than disagreements - therefore I used the phrase 'more or less came around' and she doesn't feel that way. We have a disagreement. I'm not su sure I know what the disagreement is about but we have one. She feels I'm dismissive and I do not feel I am dismissive. We have another disagreement. End of story? 3 hours ago · Like Ophelia Benson And you two misrepresented me. End of story? Sure. You're dishonest hacks. End of story. 2 hours ago · Like Karla Porter From my stand point - I don't even know you Ophelia - I know what I read and that was my
take. I didn't misrepresent you at all. You need to refrain from name calling.. It's not acceptable. 2 hours ago · Edited · Like Justin Vacula Hack? Poxy show? Vendetta? Wonderful decorum... ugh. I wonder..if you want people to treat your fairly and with respect, why the name-calling? You also didn't address much of what I said above responding to your criticisms and questions. 2 hours ago via mobile · Like Justin Vacula It is really sad, Ophelia, that I am allowing you to come on the podcast to have a conversation about these issues and you're levying personal attacks while refusing to have that conversation. If you don't want to come on, whatever, that's on you, but I don't understand why the name calling and this accusation of lying. 2 hours ago via mobile · Like Ophelia Benson Again, you're being ridiculous. I told you: you misrepresented what was in those emails. That is dishonest. It's very simple. 2 hours ago · Like Justin Vacula First, the complaint was that we only read a tiny fraction, parts. Now it is misrepresenting you and being dishonest. Which is it? 2 hours ago via mobile · Like Justin Vacula How is reading a fraction of the emails misrepresenting you, anyway? The stance I had taken was that the threat wasn't that. Your response to it is a different matter, isn't it? 2 hours ago via mobile · Like EllenBeth Wachs Justin, you are acting as if you are doing Ophelia a favor by allowing her to grace you with her presence to defend herself. I tried to explain why you framed the email issue incorrectly. If you don't understand why she is mad, it most likely a combination of willful ignorance and confirmation bias. You do not have a right to substitute your judgment and decide what course should have been taken. 2 hours ago via mobile · Like Justin Vacula Ellen, I don't need to be Ophelia to have an informed opinion about a matter pertaining to her just as someone doesn't need to be me to have an informed opinion about a matter pertaining to me. Again, I didn't see her course of action pertaining the email to be a proper one or, to frame it in other ways, I think other responses were better ways of action. If I received an odd email today that I thought might be a threat concerning my speaking appearance this weekend in ohio, what do you think the best course of action should be: A) Drop out before doing any research B) Do the research and come to a decision C) Something else? Sure, if you answer B or C, I can go around telling people 'they don't know what it is like' because they aren't me and say that if people don't understand they are ignorant or victim of biases, but that doesn't help...and it is unfalsifiable. about an hour ago via mobile · Like EllenBeth Wachs Justin , as I stated, you are framing issues incorrectly unfortunately as it appears you don't really know the correct chain of events that occurred with Ophelia and the emails. She didn't just drop out of TAM upon receiving the first one. But I do believe I am spitting on a fire do I will save my effort. about an hour ago via mobile · Like
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